THG Linux Migration, Part Two

LqqkOut writes "Tom's Hardware Guide has posted part 2 of their Windows->Linux migration article. This time around, we're presented with some nifty divx screen caps that make life look oh, so easy. The Tom's crew packed a lot into this article, but did they sacrifice some essentials like 'RTFM' and other sage advice? This follows up their first article where users were shown how to choose and download a distro, back up some important data, and check for HW compatibility."

Comments

One major step

[Limburgher]

Do they walk you through setting up a slashdot ID?

Great Video

[Rapid Home Offer]

I love how they demonstrate video players by showing Steve Ballmer's sweaty-pitted Developers video on Xine.

Re:Great Video

[red floyd]

Yeah, I liked that! And the Mozilla sample was Groklaw.

Did anyone notice

[Anonymous Coward]

the Redhat installation screen caps, then a SuSe background on the gui screen cap. That's callaboration for you.

Did I miss something?

[drewhearle]

Perhaps I missed something in the article... but why are the installation screenshots RedHat and the desktop screenshots SuSe?

Re:Did I miss something?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

but why are the installation screenshots RedHat and the desktop screenshots SuSe?

It's Tom's Hardware, what the Hell do you want?

Re:Did I miss something?

[cavebear42]

Tom is really, really good at hardware. OSes aren't hardware.

Re:Did I miss something?

[MrRuslan]

Well I read the whole thing and they say that most redhatish linux distros use similar install methods and i think they are right...anyone who ever installed redhat or mandrake can install suse or xandros or lindows...I think its good that they mention this because people from the windows world would be confused about all the difrent flavors you know...

Re:Did I miss something?

[insert 3 letters]

Their insall guide is not distro specific, probably to prevent fan biys from complaining that "oh its red hat, where's gentoo?"
In reality, they should have focused on one distro, I don't care which one. This is supposed to be a beginner's guide and a through walk through would have been a lot more useful to a newbie than a brief overview of the steps to cover all major distros.
Linux installed is easy to use, its the initial install and setup that scares away the newbies.

Re:Did I miss something?

[cavebear42]

A. If he had an MS bias, this article would have been posted. Unless I missed the law which says that all sites must cover switching from microsoft to another OS.

B. Since when is there a "simple Win-to-*nix install"? Admins and techno-junkies _still_ have problems with this. It almost never works correctly the first time and then once you have it up and running, there is a huge learning curve on how to use it for anything beyond OOo and mozilla.

C. He had problems? It looked sucessfull to me.

RedHat or SuSE?

[red floyd]

I thought TFA said it was using RedHat9, but the screen shot of a fully installed system is SuSE.

Re:RedHat or SuSE?

[MrRuslan]

Your answere: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=103899&thresho ld=1&commentsort=0&tid=106&tid=185&mode=thread&pid =8849632#8849981

Re:RedHat or SuSE?

[BigGerman]

Is not what they mean by "apply all the necessary updates"? ;-)

Win2Lin Migration HOWTO

[heironymouscoward]

1. Move from MS Office to OpenOffice.org (cost: 2 weeks to settle down, 1 month to adapt fully)

2. Move from MSIE to Mozilla (cost: 2 hours to settle down)

3. Move from Outlook to Mozilla Mail (cost: 1 week to settle down)

4. Switch the OS when no-one's looking (cost: $40 for Xandros, 1 hour per PC).

Seriously: the key to migrating is to start with the applications.

Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO

[grub]

Seriously: the key to migrating is to start with the applications.

What about games? I still have a Windows box at home just for games. :(

Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO

[neowolf]

Amen!

I switched to OpenOffice and Mozilla about six months ago, and almost never look back. Except for a couple of crappy Web sites that only work with Internet Exploder, I've never had a reason to use IE or MS-Office again, and have talked several co-workers into using OO and Mozilla as-well. They are faster, safer, more reliable, and in the case of Mozilla- have much better spam and pop-up control. Fortunately I've had an easier time bringing open source software in now that our IT boss has embrased Mac OS-X for our art department.

Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO

[chris_mahan]

One word: Netcafe

Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO

[szo]

I have a win partition, but since I installed Enemy Territory, I never booted to windows. :)

Szo

Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO

[Lispy]

I play EnemyTerritory a lot.
Then I like Neverwinternights, BzFlag and Freeciv. All the i.d. stuff is there too along with UnrealTournament and some classics such as SimCity 3000.

I never missed much of the rest of the gaming world.

Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO

[shaka999]

I agree, the key is the applications!

Now, the thing I think was missing from Tom's first article and you don't mention is that all Linux distros aren't equal in this respect.

I work in circuit design. Many of the tools are now ported to Linux (Yeah!) BUT most only support Red Hat Enterprise (Doh!). So, if you have any issues you need to have RHE if you want support. Seeing that these tools are pretty pricey the cost of getting RHE is just a drop in the bucket. So, when migrating don't just look for the normal apps but look the requirements for your specific applications and what they support

RTFM

[Archangel Michael]

Don't you just hate that phrase? The whole "RTFM" thing is quite funny if you ask me. I know of NOBODY that has RTFMed everything they touch.

If I RTFM before I did anything, I wouldn't ever get anything done, as I would still be RTFM.

I hardly ever RTFM, and when I do, it is in reference to a singular problem. As in, "how do I do ______", and RTFM section on that.

Actually, if one could write a FM, they ought to be able to SCRIPT it and put it in a GUI, don't ya think?

Here is a trick that nobody has thought of, how about a CLI command builder. You know a GUI interface to utilities and programs that doesn't actually do anything but create the CL necissary to execute a command you need done.

That way, a person could use the GUI to improve their CLI skills.

Re:RTFM

[lordsali256]

I totally agree with this guy, I currently use Windows, but I have tried to switch to linux SEVERAL times, but I always get stuck in certain things. Wish there was a huge online linux FAQ that was easily searchable. Not Google either, I want something linux specfic. If there is something out there like this LET ME KNOW.

Re:RTFM

[cavebear42]

TFM has a purpose. What its all about is when someone comes to me and says, "Hey, Bear, how do I print a test page on an HP 4050?" or, "Bear, what would a guy have to do if he wanted the files in a directory without any of the other data?"

I dont have the time to answer every question for every person. It is not logical for a person to figure this stuff out on their own but TFM were provided for people to teach themselves.

Scripts are not the salvation of society. While I could make a script for many things (including OS setups), this would not make the person have any knowlage as to what they just did which would eventully cause problems.

While it is true that I don't RTFM for everything I do, I assure you that I don't engage in questioning or pretend to be an expert until i have.

Re:RTFM

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.google.com/linux :)

Re:RTFM

[untermensch]

Most distributions and many applications have FAQs,forums,mailing lists,irc channels, etc. which can be a lot of help. Forums and mailing list archives in particular are useful for when you get stuck, because even if nobody has put your problem into official documentation, it's very, very likely that somebody else has had your problem and has posted a question about it somewhere. And if they haven't, well then you can ask yourself.

Re:RTFM

[merlin_jim]

The best advice for anyone moving from Windows to a Linux GUI; mice with 3 buttons. A lot of the software such as gimp, blender, and audacity (used for 2-D images, 3-D images, and audio respectively) require a third button to function properly...

Re:RTFM

[David Hume]

Most distributions and many applications have FAQs,forums,mailing lists,irc channels, etc. which can be a lot of help.

Doesn't this prove the point of the grand-parent post? If when the Linux aficionado ("LA") tells the Linux newbie to RTFM the LA is in fact telling the newbie to search and read all of the relevant FAQs, forums, mailing lists, irc channels, etc., won't the reponse of most newbies be, "Thanks, but I'll go back to Windows?"

Re:RTFM

[jjares]

www.tldp.org

Re:RTFM

[jeffy124]

people who work on writing GUIs (be in Linux, Windows, workplace, whatever) or otherwise designing things that interact with people should put Dave Norman's Design of Everyday Things at the top of their required reading lists. He makes arguments regarding the idea of manuals, which can be quite enlightening.

I started reading it last night, and the author mentioned in the preface that after reading his text, you'll end up going about your day noticing how various objects are or are not well designed for interacting with humans. All I've read thus far is chapter 1, and he's already got me started on making those evaluations.

Re:RTFM

[linuxkrn]

How about http://www.linuxquestions.org/

Re:RTFM

[Juanvaldes]

well there is Google Linux and tons of Linux Faq's
Let me say I know the frustration, this weekend I finally got a linux distro to like our PC's hardware and actually work. While a massive centralized faq would be nice I know it will never happen and so I use what is available to me. This is one of the downsides to a discentralized system, there is no one place to look and lots of reinventing the wheel is done.

Re:RTFM

[canajin56]

Asking the Linux Guru's how to do something in Linux is the wrong way to do it. Say you want to find all the files in a directory that contain some string.

Wrong Way to Ask : "How do I search for files that contain a certain string, using Linux?"
This will only get you a RTFM

Right Way to Ask : "Linux sucks because in Windows, you can easily find files that contain a certain string just by going to 'Search for files and folders'! Linux can't do that"
This will get you at least 10 ways to do it ;)

Re:RTFM

[untermensch]

won't the reponse of most newbies be, "Thanks, but I'll go back to Windows?"

If they have to spend too much time reading all of this stuff, then yes. However, I think it is fair to expect newbies to do a certain amount of research. Remember nobody is born a Windows expert either, you learned bit by bit, and were probably helped by people who already knew more than you.

If somebody raised on Linux tried Windows for the very first time, I'm sure they'd be confused and frustrated too.

Re:RTFM

[jimsum]

You put a huge restriction on designers when you say you won't to read a manual. How can something be new and also intuitive? If things have to be intuitive, we never get a chance to change the interface. Take the Windows calculator, for example. Why do you have to push buttons on the screen? Isn't it possible that there might be a better interface than replicating a physical calculator with mouse clicks?

I don't think anyone can learn to use a word processor without reading the manual (or asking someone who has); but that's the price we pay to have more capability than an intuitive picture of a pencil that you manipulate with a mouse.

I have no idea why people like to learn by trial and error; but I find spending an hour or two to RTFM always saves huge amounts of time compared to figuring it out by trial and error. Unfortunately companies use the excuse that no one reads manuals to avoid writing them, and we are all reduced to guessing how things work. Asking other users what they have discovered is a lot less useful than reading the designer's description of how to use the item.

Re:RTFM

[Lumpy]

have you EVER look in the Microsoft Knowlege base?

A centralized information source is no better.

Go ahead and search for any topic and try to get a good answer without wading through gobs on unrelated gunk.

everyone needs a better centralized information system that has a decent search engine and relevance ranking...

unfortunately it takes LOTS of money to hire librarians to manage your information and documentation stores... and no company wants spend money on it... as it does not increase marketability nor profitability...

Re:RTFM

[Archangel Michael]

How can something be new and also intuitive?

IPOD. It isn't easy to make it intuitive, which is why it isn't often done. People are more concerned with getting things to market, that they often sacrifice usability to be the "first".

This is where the principle of KISS comes in. KISS for most things works better. 80% of the time we only use 20% of the options. Let say we have 10 commands, the simple menu should be two or three most used commands. Others should be available, but tucked NEATLY out of sight.

Re:RTFM

[Archangel Michael]

Okay Troll, I'll bite.

Windows doesn't have a manual to read. It has help files that are more or less useless except to a newbie.

People don't learn windows with a manual, it is just THERE, waiting to be used. When was the last time any windows help site started the FAQ with "RTFM"? In fact, when was the last time you saw a Windows manual for that matter?

Re:RTFM

[theLOUDroom]

Here is a trick that nobody has thought of, how about a CLI command builder. You know a GUI interface to utilities and programs that doesn't actually do anything but create the CL necissary to execute a command you need done.

Actually a LOT of Linux programs do just that.
Good examples would be cd burners and mp3 players.
Nearly all of those use command-line programs to handle the actual work. It's part of the whole *NIX philosophy: lots of small programs that are good at doing one thing.

A typical CD-creator type program on linux will use a whole slew of command-line utilities to handle creating the .iso, converting mp3 to wav, ripping audio off a cd, titleing mp3 files, doing cddb lookups, etc.

If I RTFM before I did anything, I wouldn't ever get anything done, as I would still be RTFM.

If you actually RTFM, you would know that ;)

Of course I understand where you coming from though. I only have about 800 pages worth of documentation to read this week....ugh.
Sometimes it's nice when someone will spend 30 seconds to save you a couple hours.

Re:RTFM

[pqdave]

The problem is the opposite of a lack of RTFM, it's too many damn FM's. I'm sure the right answer is there somewhere, but it's mixed in with a bunch of stuff that doesn't work with my distribution for whatever reason--Obsolete, distro-specific, or just plain wrong. I'm sure I could find a forum to ask on, but I'm not at all comfortable posting before lurking, and I'd like an answer this week.

Re:RTFM

[Archangel Michael]

I didn't want the command line executed, I just wanted the program to create the CL for the operation. I know most *nix GUI's are built on top of CLI programs.

The point is that if people want us to use the CLI for stuff, and get the syntax right, and I don't want to have to RTFM to do it, learning all 108 options for said program, then the GUI should build the command, and let me review it before it executes.

Re:RTFM

[SnappleMaster]

Try XP's help. It's way better than it used to be.

BTW, help that is not (by your implication) useless to a newbie is actually a good thing!

Re:RTFM

[jayminer]

I agree with you. I have a very friendly professor an the university. He is a professor of physics.

He had learned how to compute using Unix machines. When Linux became available, he started using it. He has never practically used Windows for his own favor and he certainly is frustrated when he has to do something in a Windows box, as it is not what he is used to. He always searches for the simplicity and easyness that he is used to. He looks for Linux.

The same applies to me also, but I have been using Linux as my primary desktop operating system only for 5 years and it is not the first operating system I have used (I have used AmigaOS and Windows 3.1/95/98 then switched to Linux full time).

Re:RTFM

[theLOUDroom]

I didn't want the command line executed, I just wanted the program to create the CL for the operation. I know most *nix GUI's are built on top of CLI programs.

Interesting. Some programs will let you see the command line as it's being built (Xcdroast) but definately not the majority.

Re:RTFM

[zcat_NZ]

"it's +5 funny because it's true!"

high and mighty

[MagicM]

Not to disrespect Tom or anyone else that cares, but this article just sounds way too "high and mighty" for my tastes. Some snippets:

In Windows, you don't have much of a choice with browsers, as you probably used Internet Explorer.

In essence, you get to see what is under the "hood of your car," as compared to Windows, where the hood is welded shut.

While this may be true, it makes it sound like this article is for the typical "windows idiot", in which case "make sure you download the GTK+ development library" is WAY not enough information. And for someone willing to try to move to Linux (and get Oracle, Apache and SMB working), this is just insulting.

Re:high and mighty

[ImpTech]

Oh I dunno... my understanding is the article's written for Windows powerusers who have never bothered with Linux. And yeah, plenty of fairly savvy Windows users still use IE, and being knowledgable about Windows doesn't necessarily imply any knowledge of what it really means to have the source code for your OS.

I will say that I thought the comment about GTK+, though seemingly only there to illustrate the point that some software will require other software to run, was badly phrased and probably should have just been left out. Its not like either RedHat or SuSe are going to do a graphical install *without* GTK+, and the article reads something like "Oh, by the way, you should have already installed GTK+. There'll be big trouble if you didn't!" And of course the newbie has no idea whether he did or didn't at this point, so he panics.

Other than that one sentence though, I thought the article was pretty good.

Re:high and mighty

[ratboy666]

Tom's was clear -- they promote that the new linux user install EVERYTHING.

The GTK comment just hammers this home.

Until the new user KNOWS what they want, they can try it all -- especially the target user here (knows Windows, and is curious).

The data migration tips alone make this an article worth reading -- how to move your IE bookmarks and PST mailbox over...

And "Oracle, Apache and SMB" come later. First, convert, bringing over your data, and start exploring the new environment.

I give Tom's a really big "Two Thumbs Up" for this article -- good to get more hobby users into Linux!

Ratboy

Re:high and mighty

[ratboy666]

AC:

Now, I don't know if you're actually going to read this: so let's call your reply a sucessful troll...

Tom's article *did* mention Mozilla, Evolution, Xine (maybe MPlayer), GAIM... *and* what they are used for.

You know, the application mix that a hobby user would find useful.

With everything installed, the user can then begin branching out into other applications. This policy (install everything) makes installation of other things easier.

You want frustration? Lead the user into RPM dependency hell... Until the user KNOWS, Tom's advice is the best. Remember: the user will have to be reasonably self-sufficient.

Also, the applications are organized by function (in all the distributions I am familiar with - Redhat 9, Fedora, Mandrake). Also, Redhat 9 (at least) has a CD full of documentation (how to administer your system). I even still refer to it.

And, when the new Linux user becomes familiar with the "new" way of doing things, there are other choices she can make -- which office suite, mail agent, mailer, desktop, etc. to use. But, she will be making these decisions based on some real experience.

Ratboy.

Re:high and mighty

[JaxGator75]

I liked it as well. I tried to switch to RH9 a few months ago to learn the basics so I could build a MythTV box, and I eft with my tail between my legs. I got all the way through the install and everything worked great! Then I tried to start installing programs and "habit" kicked in...

"OK, I'll just double-click the EXE and... and..."

At least the Internet worked "out of the box" and I had fun playing Tux Racer and Asteroids for that half-hour... This guide answered some stupid questions I had and I believe the videos should help even more. It's not THAT hard, it's just a matter of adapting to the differences. Knowing those differences ahead of time makes ALL the difference!

Re:high and mighty

[Glial]

If a user knows what Oracle, Apache, and SMB are, then this article really wasn't aimed at them. Was it?

My first time

[thebra]

I just recentally installed Fedora with out a problem. Every thing works great except my 3d card. I have installed WineX and am able to install games but they run slow due to the fact my card doesn't seem to be supported. I have had a good linux experience so far and hope to never have to use Windows again. I wish this guide would have been around before I got started to answer some of my questions. Escpecially on installing applications.

Re:My first time

[BiggerIsBetter]

Accelerated 3D drivers for newer cards are available from your card vendor - presuming that's ATI or Nvidia. They're on their respsective vendor's websites, and the installation should be fairly painless if you follow the doco.

I reckon it's about time the distros and vendors got overthemselves and included these drivers by default. The users want them, and not having them "built in" is just a PITA for new users.

Re:My first time

[roye]

Same here. I opted for linux at the begining of the term when I kept having some problems with Windows and could not spend the time to trouble shoot it. My flavor of choice is MEPIS, based on Debianand is still in beta, but fairly smooth for my needs and a simple install with a fairly good forums for help. My only problems with Linux now is that I spend too much time exploring and learning the system, and not enough time on my studies. I can't wait until the term is over.

Re:My first time

[Lumpy]

the great part is that some distros like Mandrake will support a 3d card with the binary drivers out of the box. Yes only the purchased version of 10.0 with the 5 disks does this, but it is sweet to have the nvidia driver installed, the burner work in the user login and not have to drop to root do burn, automounting of drives, including the usb thumb drive, digital camera, etc...

there are reasons to buy the full distro.. and extended hardware support out of the box is one of them.

Re:My first time

[zcat_NZ]

Last time I checked, XP included only minimal drivers for the Nvidia and ATI cards too.. I'm fairly certain I had to go download the 3d drivers separately when I last installed Windows on a machine.

Re:My first time

[e r i k 0]

The main problem with including accelerated video drivers in mainstream distributions is that they typically follow a different licensing scheme (non-GPL/LGPL/Free license). For "integrated" distros (like Gentoo), drivers are built-in. For pure GPL distros (like Mandrake), drivers need to be downloaded separately.

Good for those of us who are used to Windoze

[Steve the Rocket Sci]

As a person who mainly cut his teeth on Windows and DOS-based PCs, this series of articles helps out a bit. Sure, it's fun to figure things out yourself, but I'm not always in the mood to have to reference Google every time I try something new and exciting. Now only if they had something that would remember all those console commands so my stupid brain doesn't keep filling up. =P

Re:Good for those of us who are used to Windoze

[JoeBaldwin]

Do what I do: make a cheat sheet for stuff that you need to remember. Just print it out and stick it somewhere prominent.

Re:Good for those of us who are used to Windoze

[Dravik]

Isn't that what your supposed to do with passwords?

Re:Good for those of us who are used to Windoze

[ph4s3]

Now only if they had something that would remember all those console commands

man pages?

I hated reading them at first when I just wanted a short (easy) answer. But once I've digested one, it is a hundred times easier to review it again and extract the one thing I need. In fact, man COMMANDNAME | grep -i "whatever you're looking for" is the best thing ever.

As a side note, I think this article series is the best thing THG has done. For true power users of windows, the real draw of *NIX is the CLI. That's where the real power is. I truly hope that THG will eventually cover the use of the CLI for people new to Linux, in particular the basic UNIX structures of STDIN and STDOUT and how to utilize them with |, >, and >>.

I also hope they cover some of the more useful commands that aren't part of the windows CLI tool list (cut, join, grep, sed, awk, etc). They don't need to detail them, seing as entire books have been dedicated to just a few, just let users know that they're there. I think that most power users are smart enough to figure out how something works, but they have to know it's there before they start looking into it.

Re:Good for those of us who are used to Windoze

[74nova]

how is the man page going to help you find the command? the guy wants a way to remember what commands you use and a man page on said un-remembered commands is thus impossible.

it would be nice to have some sort of new users guide to the Linux CLI in the distro. it can get a little tedious just browsing to /usr/bin/ and man paging everything to see what youve got there, especially if youre new and you dont even know about that directory. a linux pocket reference is probably the closest thing. you know, windows has that annoying tour thing when you install, why doesnt any linux distro have one of those? you could select a level for the tour depending on your knowledge. i would have loved that my first few times.

If I know Tom’s…

[Anonymous Coward]

...this Divx video will be split up into 50 page views of 5 second video clips.

Developers, developers, developers, developers!

[drewhearle]

"Developers, developers, developers, developers" (1.6MB)
Dance, monkey boy ("Woohoo! I love this company!") (3MB)
and last but not least...
The 3-minute Developers music video (9.5MB)

Serious flaw

[Oriumpor]

When a very linux biased review doesn't do a good job of convincing a linux user that the linux method of application distribution isn't a crock there's something wrong.

I'm not just piping in on this topic, I have had to deal with dependency BS just like the rest of anyone who hasn't had some obscure perl module.

You are also required to download other programs/packages to make your program work.

Thank microsoft's installapp creator (visual studio) for alleviating this problem on the Win32 side of things. Linux is left to flounder without, since there's no real way to baseline the needed dependencies and install them with the application across multiple Distros/versions easily.

Automation is what makes computers useful, big round buttons make them usable by the avg.

Re:Serious flaw

[betelgeuse-4]

Using emerge with gentoo, I haven't had any dependancy problems. I suspect the same is true for many people using other linux distros or *BSD with similar package management progams.

Re:Serious flaw

[jtwJGuevara]

I agree, as I am a recent Gentoo convert. But seriously, you aren't going to convince any beginner or Windows convert to use Gentoo, no matter how good the package management is. It's entirely too much hands on and people will throw a fit at having to compile things instead of double clicking install_aim.exe.

Re:Serious flaw

[DarkSarin]

I tend to agree, also having recently moved to Gentoo.

I have a problem in Gentoo--I can't print. Getting this to work from the manual is not happening--I've tried.

The trouble is that when I asked about it on the forums I never got a response.

That said, there have also been times when the forums were great. This is fine for someone with 2 things: time and patience. I happened to have both, but for someone who is doing anything remotely mission critical, the forums aren't good enough, and the manual not detailed enough on the trouble-shooting.

As far as emerge--It's awesome. For those who knock Gentoo, but haven't used emerge, you need to try it. If, after that, you still don't like it, then you can bash away, but when all you've ever used is rpm's, don't knock portage--there is no comparison, especially for a newbie.

If I were to start a business selling computers, the default OS would be Gentoo Linux with a good GUI interface for portage. Second would be debian, and then possibly Suse or MDK. Last would be Windows (I don't have a problem with people who like windows, I just happen to disagree with them on the point that it has any intrinsic value).

Re:Serious flaw

[betelgeuse-4]

I agree gentoo isn't suitable for beginners, but emerge and the like show that Linux doesn't have to be a dependancy nightmare. A slick GUI interface and pre-compiled packages might actually be more user-friendly than the double-click setup.exe system. Firstly because you could get all your software from one trusted source (i.e. the programs would be written by loads of different people/groups but the people who produce the packages for your distro would have independantly reviewed/tested the code to a certain extent) which might reduce the amount of malware clogging up peoples systems. Secondly, one could get a list of the available software of one type (e.g. word processors) quickly and make an informed choice, instead of trawling the internet.

Re:Serious flaw

[theLOUDroom]

When a very linux biased review doesn't do a good job of convincing a linux user that the linux method of application distribution isn't a crock there's something wrong.

Repeat after me:
There is no single method of application distribution.

Application distribution is distro spefic.
Redhat is different than Gentoo, is different from Debian, which are all different from the format used by a Sharp Zaurus PDA. What works for Gentoo would be hell on a Sharp Zaurus. Choose a distro that suits you needs.

You should learn how to use your distribution's chosen method for distributing applications.
If you don't you're building everything from scratch for no good reason.
Installing by hand is like pulling your engine every time you need to change the oil because you didn't notice the drain plug on the bottom.

Personally I use Gentoo's emerge command and it work's great. I'll find out that I want a copy of foobar installed on my system so I type "emerge foobar". All the dependencies are automatically resolved and foobar is installed.

(Now if you're on the bleeding edge, or looking for something truely obscure then you may be forced to build it by hand, but the same is true for those programs on any operating system.)

Migration, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

fucking immigrants.

I like what examples they chose

[xutopia]

to show off browsing they have the groklaw site. To show off multimedia they have the sweaty Ballmer "preaching" to his choir. It's a welcomed note of humor for us ol' timers.

Re:My first Linux migration. Success!

[ciczan]

Linux and Porn are such a good combination!! Using wget I can make simple scripts to download sequences of images or videos. Mplayer handles almost every format. No pop-up overflows. No spywares.

Question

[bonch]

What happens when the other 99% of their software doesn't work anymore? Or half of their hardware?

Being sneaky about installing Linux under people's noses seems like a very sleazy way to spread adoption. I'm sorry, but Linux is not ready enough for that kind of bait-and-switch, and it's a tad bit disconcerting anyway to be that sleazy.

You spread through education and willing adoption, not sneaky forced adoption.

Uh

[bonch]

If you're using a GUI to build command line instructions, first off you may as well just use a GUI period, and second, clearly your CLI is too complex. You know, most people don't want "CLI skills." Slashdotters love to claim how much better it is, but it's not really better, you're simply used to it. Others may disagree. Anyone who believes they know the "one right way" of doing anything is someone to avoid.

A GUI program to build CLI commands, talk about overkill--yet I fully expect that someone has tried this on some inane Sourceforge project page...sigh...

Re:Uh

[swv3752]

Which is easier to tell someone how to do?

[I]mv /old/path/to/some/file /new/path/to/some/file[/I]
or
Detailed instructions on opening a file browser, navigate to file, then either click and drag or cut and paste file into new location.

Besides, people who had 286,386, or 486 computers were quite comfortable in DOS and are happy to use a CLI.

I was expecting more

[Stevyn]

I know this was geared towards newbies, but I was hoping for a little more about the software. I never had a problem with linux, but I still think the software I use in windows is better than that available in linux. Yeah there's more choice, but all those options never seem to cut it for me. Actually, I think the only things holding me up are photoshop and windows media player and lack of printer support. Oh well, maybe next year...

Re:I was expecting more

[Jagasian]

Oh my god, you actually like Windows Media Player? A much better media player for Windows, that can play every media format (windows, quicktime, real, divx, xvid, etc) is Media Player Classic. Also, Media Player Classic is both free and opensource. It also is also faster than Windows Media Player. In fact, there is really no reason to not use Media Player Classic.

Re:I was expecting more

[intervoid]

Your examples aren't very good ones, except for perhaps photoshop CS, which buy the way is expensive, not free like gIMP. Media player is bogus bloatware, i don't like something that takes up 40% of resources just to play an mp3. What i use for an alternative is BSPlayer in windows for movies (divx). For me the only thing keeping me from deleting my windows partition altogether is gaming and dreamweaver.

Re:I was expecting more

[Stevyn]

I don't use a media player just to play music and video files. Any media player could do that. What I use it for really is to keep track of all my music. I have not found a good linux alernative that can do this. If you can, please let me know and I'll try it next time I decide to "switch." I do have media player classic, but all it does is play files, not enough for me, and a lot of high
school and college students.

Not to mention

[bonch]

People don't want to "see under the hood" or "download the GTK+ development library."

They just want it to work, hence the use of Internet Explorer. Many OSS advocates simply don't get it. The obsession with "choice" and "freedom" has produced difficult-to-use software that gets reinvented by about 20 other competing clones, all doing things differently. Somehow this is supposed to be good.

Re:Not to mention

[dasunt]

People don't want to "see under the hood" or "download the GTK+ development library."

They just want it to work, hence the use of Internet Explorer. Many OSS advocates simply don't get it. The obsession with "choice" and "freedom" has produced difficult-to-use software that gets reinvented by about 20 other competing clones, all doing things differently. Somehow this is supposed to be good.

Did you ever think that many OSS advocates simply don't care?

Right now, I have an OpenBSD/FVWM desktop. Is my GUI difficult to use? Nope. Is it difficult to learn? Not really, but it does require knowledge beyond the 'point-and-click' phase. Is this a desktop I'd set my mother up with? Probably not. But does it work for me? Yes!

Next time on Slashdot: Why I drive a stick even though manual transmittions aren't 'user-friendly'.

Re:Not to mention

[4of12]

They just want it to work, hence the use of Internet Explorer.

Well, you're absolutely right about the first part.

Just like I want my automobile to just work. And it does. I take it to the mechanic and have it worked on regularly. And I pay some for that service.

But if the car manufacturer started to hide the engine diagnostic codes in an effort to make me visit the dealership for very expensive service, you can bet I'd be concerned about welded shut hoods if there were any occasion whatsoever for service. Or service packs.

People don't use IE because it just works. (There's Macs if that's the objective).

People use IE "because it came with My PC", because it's good enough, and because it's a (deliberately) hard hassle to remove and replace with something else.

I expect constant shakeouts in the FOSS world.

Successful applications will incorporate the best features, will be used by the most people, and will receive the most developer attention.

Sometimes unwarranted momentum for an application can be caused by a large distro placing the application front and center. This might not be fair to a better application, but people wanting more than the default will either find out about the better option or contribute development effort to making the B player stronger. It might not be efficient, but evolution is full of Einsteins that couldn't outrun sabre-toothed tigers, either.

The nice thing is that the carcasses of failed applications serve as idea food for people looking to build something new and better, where many many failed commercial codes with great ideas and great, potentially reusable, implementations in them end up buried forever.

Not BEFORE you touch it, when you have a question.

[khasim]

If you don't have any questions, then no one will tell you to RTFM.

If you have a question, then you RTFM.

If your question is NOT answered in TFM, then you ask it.

Actually, lots of people have thought of using a GUI to put together a command line statement. Lots of people have even thought of using a GUI to import/export text based config files.

Hardware

[t_allardyce]

They missed out hardware, i think its important for them to mention that most hardware manufacturers are bitches when it comes to supporting, or even being in support of linux or any other OS than Windows, If you're switching to linux make sure your hardware is fully supported, its not enough that there are 'drivers availiable' you have to be ruthless and only buy the most popular and known to be supported stuff, make sure you search the forums and dont waste your time on anything thats not used by less than 30% of the linux community or anything that people complain about because its going to cause you grief.

let me just add to the list:
-Sagem f@st 800 ADSL USB Modem and PPPoA, just hassle
-ATI All-In-Wonder Pro dual screened with a 9200SE - if you get this working ill grovel down to you.
-Diamond S90 (vortex) sound card - shove it up your ass, you'll get better performance

and unrelated - IBM Deskstar harddrives - if you hear that grinding noise your screwed.

Re:Hardware

[EricWright]

That was in the aforementioned first article. They go through all the common hardware issues. In fact, I wish the first article had been printed a week earlier. I got to suffer through installing linux on a machine with the nforce chipset. It's not so bad if you're prepared. Me, I had to use one machine (iBook) to download the drivers, ssh to a second (headless linux) machine, dump it to floppy (yes, floppy), then upload from floppy on the third machine.

Re:Hardware

[wkjel]

See part one of the article for all the stuff about checking your hardware.

Well done

[bogie]

My first reaction when watching the videos was duh, but then I realized what a great job he had done. We are a culture that flat out doesn't like to read instructions, having it done in a visual manner was a smart move. Also seeing something done right before your eyes is a much bigger confidence builder then just reading a quick howto on the internet. Look at the Outlook migration video. How nice is it to just say "download the video on it" and know that they probably won't need much assitance beyond that. People and companies especially pay big bucks for videos like this which train users how to install or use a product. While they are not the most comprehensive Linux video training out there and I have a few minor nitpciks, its Free so how can you knock it? Tom's has done a real service to the community with these articles and videos and they deserve our thanks.

RPM Hell

[krmt]

This bothered me too, but maybe that's because I've been using Debian for so long. Seriously, do Linux users really work like this? Hunting after the right RPM's and such? I mean... I remember doing that in 1999 (and it was a solved problem even then) on Mandrake, but they had already begun work on urpmi or something similar at the time. Honestly, I haven't dealt with a real dependency issue in half a decade and I haven't had to compile an app that I didn't write in years (unless I wanted to package it myself for some reason). I thought this was long solved for all distros now.

Do you guys really live like this? If so... why?

Re:RPM Hell

[IamTheRealMike]

Because not everybody wants to use Debian or Gentoo. Because the model in which huge numbers of people try and package every single thing in a centralised manner is inefficient and doesn't scale. How many levels does Debian have now? 4 - stable, testing, unstable and experimental, iirc.

The fact is, that it takes a lot of time to package everything like that, and a lot of human resources, which most distros simply cannot afford. Often these distros have other things which make them attractive, which is why distros like Red Hat/Fedora and SuSE are still popular.

Unfortunately Linux software distribution is not a "solved problem", as you put it, not even for Debian. Even there, in order to get up to date software you must move on to progressively more and more unstable sets of packages, which really is just not acceptable for most people.

Re:RPM Hell

[krmt]

Because not everybody wants to use Debian or Gentoo.

No one said they should have to.

Because the model in which huge numbers of people try and package every single thing in a centralised manner is inefficient and doesn't scale. How many levels does Debian have now? 4 - stable, testing, unstable and experimental, iirc.

The model has scaled pretty well, as far as I can see. Not every piece of crap program on freshmeat needs to be available for the novice user, nor should it be. The model might not be the most efficient one possible, but it definitely produces the most robust system, which can not be said for something like Redhat's contrib packages. The different levels of Debian are due to more complex issues than the large packaging model, including high standards of quality and porting issues. It's also an ongoing experiment in massive collaboration, and the jury is still out on whether testing or experimental as they're being used are worthwhile.

The fact is, that it takes a lot of time to package everything like that, and a lot of human resources, which most distros simply cannot afford.

Indeed, but from what I hear, Fedora and Gentoo have solved these issues as well. Manpower is available in abundance thanks to the FOSS development model, that's not the limiting factor.

Even there, in order to get up to date software you must move on to progressively more and more unstable sets of packages, which really is just not acceptable for most people.

Debian's model offers you a choice, and this is one you simply can't escape. If you want the new stuff, be prepared to put up with a few bugs. If you want the stability, be prepared to put up with old software. It's up to you. I've used unstable exclusively on my desktop for many years with very few issues. The software itself is as stable as anything packaged and put out by other distros at the same time points. Debian stable is a level of quality and reliability that other distros simply don't offer (now RHEL does, but that's in a different category). If you run Fedora and you're worried about stability, you may as well be running unstable. Debian simply offers you a choice.

And as for it being a solved problem, it is in my, as well as many others' experience. If you choose to run your machine in such a way that it hampers your work and frustrates you, be my guest. The choice is yours, but don't complain that it's so difficult when you chose that path.

Re:RPM Hell

[swv3752]

URPMI works great. urpmi app_name and it will even try to do fuzzy matching. Apt-RPM is also suppose to be pretty good. Even Red-carpetfrom Ximian works out well enough. It is prtty much a non-issue.

Migrating

[MrRuslan]

Evryone made this whole Migrating from windows to linux thing such a big deal i dont know why...anyone who ever installed windows all the way...i mean setup for a blank hd then drivers then updates then some tweaking like turning off services and disabling and enabling some stuff can install any redhatish distro without a problem...but most people belive it or not can't do that with windows...i see many people who cant right click the right way ....those people need service with anything and i think more than half of computer users are like that that ive seen...migration is hard because its not in the OS...OS dosent even matter...if i put anyone with windows experiance in front of my Gentoo box they would not have a problem with my KDE they chat and browse just like on windows....but what if somoene needs some app thats not there for linux...I use Autocad for exaple to do work and i need it...same gouse for ALPHACAM and Cabined Vision and those are not avalable for linux ...now until they i have to work with windows cuz there are no viable alternatives for those apps....but for the basics like office stuff and browser multimedia OS or migration is a no issue...just choose whatever u like best and go for it.

Re:Migrating

[74nova]

i agree on almost all of those points(especially the last one about software). ive heard that migration is more dangerous with an average-knowledge windows user because they want to get in and screw around with stuff they dont know about. its better with newbs because they barely notics theres a K there instead of "start". however, IMO, a problem lies with getting these newbs an installed copy of linux. sure, theyd be happy to use it, im sure, but how do they get it? walmart, dell, knoppix, and some other folks are making that easier.

Linux is GREAT for games

[linuxkrn]

Just a *few* big games that run WITHOUT Wine[X]

• UT2004 (Also Unreal - 2003 work as well)
• Neverwinter Nights
• SAVAGE: The Battle for Newerth
• Enemy Territory
• Quake3
• Americas Army

And of course tons more run with Wine[X] including those Direct3D only ones.

Lets not forget the GREAT Linux games too...

• Forzen Bubble
• Scorched3D
• Legends (Tribes2 Clone)
• Chromium (Space Invaders Clone)

NO reason not to use linux for games!

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[tesmako]

OK, lets play a game then, for each game that runs native on linux you mention I mention two that do not (picked quite randomly);

* Uru: Ages Beyond Myst
* System Shock 2
* Silent Hill 3
* Serious Sam
* MechWarrior 4: Vengeance
* Homeworld2
* Europa Universalis
* Deus Ex: Invisible War
* Dark Age of Camelot
* Beyond Good & Evil
* Planescape: Torment
* Master of Orion III
* Mafia
* Far Cry
* Warcraft III
* Max Payne
* Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
* Command & Conquer Generals
* Sacrifice
* Grim Fandango

Your turn

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[tandr]

ok.

I will swich to linux next day HL2 will work on it without WineX.

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[Anonymous Coward]

ut2004 crashes all the time on Linux, but the demo ran fine, how annoying.

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[tesmako]

"for each game which runs native on linux" to quote myself, note the "native". I am fairly sure a lot of the other ones I have mentioned run under WineX as well. At any rate I dare claim that I can list two games that work under windows but not under WineX for each game you can name under WineX as well.

Linux has won a lot of battles over the last 10 years but the battle hasnt even started when it comes to gaming.

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[Dave2 Wickham]

More info on the bug...

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[linuxkrn]

Get the patch here: ut2004-kintersect-fix-x86.tar.bz2

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[Anonymous Coward]

Photoshop...

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[Cecil]

MOO3 does not run on Linux? I consider that a feature.

Worst. Sequel. Evar.

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[brocheck]

Almost all of those work under WineX.

Its almost worth giving those bastards $30 for a 6 month subscription.

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[subsolar2]

Serious Sam runs natively under Linux

Max Payne & Max Payne 2 run under WineX along with several others.

No, you won't be able to play the majority of A titles under linux.

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[FatherOfONe]

Gimp...

Re:Linux is GREAT for games

[tesmako]

Wow, had completely missed that. Really great news considering that Serious Sam is one of the best FPS games in recent years imho.

And for everyone; I meant with "natively" to exclude Wine. A lot of good game do run on Linux with the aid of Wine but;
* Licensing WineX is not all that cheap since it is a subscriptiong model.
* Setting up Wine yourself is not an all that easy thing to do for the newbie
* Even with the games that are listed as supported by WineX it is a troublesome process; Max Payne 2 apparently silently fails if you don't go to the options menu and disable pixel shaders before starting the game. GTA will cause an exception if it is started in another language than english. The opening videos of GTA can randomly hang the game. MOO3 might work out of the box but there are suggestions on the forum that the intro should be disabled with a commandline arguments (unfriendly!).
* The list of games in my post was mostly tongue-in-cheek, it is easy to come up with several hundreds of nice games that cannot be easily played in Linux if one would want to. Claiming that Linux is a good gaming platform is a bit premature at this point imho.

Serious flaw-Oh so 90's.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Thank microsoft's installapp creator (visual studio) for alleviating this problem on the Win32 side of things. Linux is left to flounder without, since there's no real way to baseline the needed dependencies and install them with the application across multiple Distros/versions easily."

Do you complain this loudly when your Win95 software doesn't work In W2K, or XP?

Does anyone complain that their Mac software doesn't work under Windows?

Pick a distro that has the majority of the software you like and be done with it. Some people just can't handle having to make a decision.

BTW Yum and Apt do just fine dealing with dependencies, but don't tell a Winvocate that, or their heads will explode.

Re:Serious flaw-Oh so 90's.

[Oriumpor]

Well, what this thread has basically told me is that Linux won't be ready for joe-sixpack anytime soon so I'll be whiping out my Fedora Partition and going back to Debian for apt alone... again.

Re:Serious flaw-Oh so 90's.

[maelstrom]

Why? There is apt available for Fedora, it works exactly the same.

Fedora Apt/Yum Repositories and Guide

Re:Serious flaw-Oh so 90's.

[Jagasian]

I have been using apt and Redhat/Fedora as my exclusive desktop for a year now. There are some notable differences from apt and Debian:

1. Debian's apt repositories contain far more software than Fedora repositories. For example, Debian testing has roughly 14000 packages, while all of the Fedora repositories pulled together have 4000 packages.

2. Debian's repositories have more strict, stable, and reliable standards. So installing software from them is less likely to mess up your system. With Fedora, you usually have to combine repositories because one repository alone lacks needed packages. This often causes conflicts between repositories.

3. Debian repositories are not just standardized, but they are mirrored across around the world. Each Fedora repository (FreshRPMs for example), is only available from a few mirrors.

So while apt itself might work the same on both distros, the repositories are what makes the difference. Debian's repositories offer better quality and quantity of packages in an organized in heavily mirrored fasion.

I should be honest. I have been toying with Debian Sarge Beta 3 on a few computers, over the past few weeks. Once Sarge goes stable, I am going to migrate my desktops from Fedora Core 1 to Sarge. It really is all about the repositories for me. The distro is the package repository.

no go in the corporate world

[carabela]

You are on the spot with the key issue; to start somewhere and start in smaller scale with the apps.
There are several apps that can live side-by side with MS products without major harm done; Mozilla, Mozilla Mail, OOo as examples.

But before the migration is complete:
1. Don't underestimate the power of MS Office macros, VBA-scripts and specially the users that made them. They can be hard-necked.

2. Don't forget about the ActiveX components and other "MS standards", XML parsers etc. too often with connections to business apps that needs to be rewritten. (Of course they should have been industry standards from the start, but most corp. environments aren't.)

3. The PIM's from PocketPC's that people are used too synch with Outlook is also an issue. Yes, there are FOSS alternatives for synching, but you have to take that into the equation aswell, adding complexity (and cost!) to the migration.

4. I like the idea of guerilla migration when no-one's looking :)

All in all, the business case, with a clear budget for migration costs including and all the marketing, education (end-user, sys.mgr.) and communication efforts needed, must to be committed to be able to migrate successfully.

Re:no go in the corporate world

[Smallpond]

Don't underestimate the power of MS Office macros, VBA-scripts and specially the users that made them. They can be hard-necked.

I'm not underestimating them They send email to me all the time. Fortunately, my AV software gets most of it.

Re:My first Linux migration. Success!

[MrRuslan]

I 100% agree...evry windows box i format that i see is floded with porn i give them a knopix CD and tell em to insert and reboot to browse porn or other questionable stuff and evryone loves it ....

Nvidia card?

[DarkMan]

I suspect that your 3D card is a Nvidia card?

If so, the lack of support for 3D is because Nvidia decided not to let people know how the hardware works, but instead to require you to use thier binary driver. See the Nvidia website for thier driver.

apt-get install foo

[khasim]

Seems to work for me.

Anything's better than RPM though

[bangular]

RPM was really only meant to be used for installations. It somehow evolved into people distributing rpms and that's how we got into rpm hell. Really though, pretty much everything else is better than rpm. Debian's rules make sure you're not going to get impossible to find dependencies. Portage, well... portage kicks ass. It would be nice if Suse, Red Hat, or Mandrake got rid of rpm and adopted a portage like system. Autopackage will be nice once it reaches stable. Autoconf is even better than rpm. At least with autoconf it actually checks gcc -lstuff as opposed to the central database that gets broken the second you install a package from source.

Re:Anything's better than RPM though

[leinhos]

I don't have any problem using yum (or see this for some helpful info) these days. It uses apt-get to resolve rpm dependencies fine on both my YellowDogLinux machine as well as my Redhat9 machine. The trick is having the right repository (freshrpms works great for me).

Re:Lies, opinions, and half-truths

[JoeShmoe950]

At first, I thought: stupid troll, I hate trolls and people that post offtopic for now reason. But after reading it, I can't disagree. We need something like this as a story. Its 100% true.

xmms and mp3s

[EricWright]

Did anyone notice the statement that xmms was a great program for playing mp3s? On RedHat? Without mentioning that you have to download and install mp3 libraries, due to the proprietary nature of the mp3 codec...

Oops!

Re:xmms and mp3s

[JaxGator75]

"Blank Stare" ensues...

/off to RTFM

Re:xmms and mp3s

[Trejkaz]

I know, he should have been pimping Muine, or something equally sexy.

Re: First thing to install after Red Hat? APT

[pjkundert]

Haven't looked at the video, but the first (and only) RPM I have to find after installing Red Hat, is:

APT!

Just go to rpmfind.net, look up apt, and select the correct version matching the version of Red Hat you have installed. Download it, and install it:

rpm -Uvh apt...

Congratulations, that's probably the last time you'll have to search for an RPM! After that, keeping Red Hat up-to-date, and finding and installing most programs, is:

apt-get update
apt-get -u upgrade

(and occasionally "apt-get -u dist-upgrade", for when a bunch of stuff changes)

or, to find and install some package:

apt-cache search program
(review available versions)
apt-get -u install program-version

Done! All except for blowing away Red Hat, and installing Debian instead. Then, you can access the rest of APT's powerful features, and really pick and chose between what Debian release you want to run (stable, testing, unstable, experimental).

Linux zealots shooting themselves in the foot...

[stienman]

In fact, [a particular program] is used in many some big movie studios such as ILM, Sony and DreamWorks. If it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for you.

Quotes like this make me cringe on so many levels.
1. What do they use the software for? Perhaps they only use it because some intern set up a script to automate a file renaming process. That doesn't make it good enough for me
2. What makes you think my needs are completely met by something that meets someone else's needs? This argument has no value. "Kibbles and bits - if it's good enough for lassie, it's good enough for your half a bee, Eric."
3. ???

"I'm not a real Linux user, but I advocate Linux on my hardware site. Testing hardware is tough, but when my working evironment consists soley of Windows machines, at the end of the day I like to go home and relax at the command line of my RedSuseBian. There's nothing like a good scripting session to clear the head and soothe my tender muscles. Try it! You'll like it - I gaurantee."

Bleah. Leave the PR quotes to real PR people, and just give us the facts.

-Adam

Synaptic

[Anonymous Coward]

Just show apt and Synaptic and every problem with applications will be blown away. It is so easy.

- Download apt and Synaptic rpms
- Doubble click on the nice icons
- Type root password
- Run Synaptic from your K/Gnome-menu.
- Type root password once again.
- Download!

Ive shown Synaptic to many users who have no idea about Linux. They got it in 10 seconds. "Whoa, is it THAT easy?!".

is this truly necessary?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to be a supreme idiot not t make the migration for some of the easier distributions such as XandrOS, Mandrake, or maybe even Lindows. Knoppix is also fairly easy and only getting better..

Now, this isn't an elitist statement. There are plenty of distributions and ways to get to Linux that ARE difficult and fraught with peril, but if you need a dummy guide then you're not supposed to go that route!

Re:From the other-sage-advice dept:

[prockcore]

- Always check your uptime. If it's better than the guy in your shop that's always preaching the benefits of BSD/Windows 2003 Server/Coco Puffs, then you have free rein to feel better than yourself.

$ uptime
12:00pm up 1567 day(s), 20:30, 1 user, load average: 0.79, 0.79, 0.80

That means I get to feel damn good about myself.

Re:From the other-sage-advice dept:

[johnthorensen]

WTF was this mod'd -1 Offtopic? Someone having a grumpy day?

bah

[steak]

i thought this article was trite and very weak especially coming from tom's hardware, the one thing that really got my goat up was when the author said that new users should install everything. in my experience when most distros give you the option to install everything; every kind of server known to man is installed, and this will eat up every resource the computer has making it unusable. in short tom's hardware would have been better to say download red hat/fedora, burn cds, click next*10, ..., profit. it would have saved me ten minutes i no longer have

Re:bah

[Trejkaz]

Well, how many resources are chewed up depends whether you choose to actually run all the things you install. IIRC, on RedHat you still have to go and tell things to start on startup, unlike Debian where (almost) everything you install starts up immediately. But you do lose disk space, I guess.

What they really should have said was install Fedora with minimum setup, then install apt and synaptic, and then find other things you need from there.

Its the Apps...

[C. Alan]

I have said it once, and I will keep repeating it. Linux will not get any more popular until the Apps are as easy to load and setup as in Windows. RPM's are a nice step forward, but Linux is not there yet.

I have just one App that is keeping me in XP, it is Autocad 2004, soon to be 2005. Sure, I could run it under wine, but I need it to work 100% of the time, with all of its functions. I don't have time to deal with Wine in it current form.

I never seen those videos...

[Henk Poley]

...only heard about them.

That man is scary...

IBM does this for a while on hardware

[Henk Poley]

I recently discovered that IBM keeps instructions videos about it's hardware (also consumer hardware). Could be quite handy if you own some IBM stuff.

The Culture of "RTFM"

[parvenu74]

What turns me off the most about *nix cluture is the whole RTFM mentality. It reveals a fundamental arrogance and disrespect that is not needed either in user-user dialogue, or in the employer-employee dialogue.

When I was a new programmer fresh out of college, I too had a bit of the arrogant "I know more than the users do about what is right" attitude. As a more expereinced sage of a programmer on that first job related to me: it's not what you know or how much you think you know, or even if you are right -- if you don't do what is asked of you then your replacement will.

In the user-user dialogue this holds as well. Aside from the fact that .NET is not production-ready on anything other than Windows (yes, I know about Mono, and when there is an IDE running on Mono on Linux I'll begin paying attention to that project), I shun the idea of joining such an arrogant usership lest I accidently be mistaken as one of them, nor do I want to be browbeaten instead of getting an answer to a question.

A final, and slightly off-topic observation: I don't know which are more blindly zealous of their operating system, Linux users or Mac users, but I know that Mac users will go out of their way to help you learn and learn to love their chosen system while the linux users will tell you to essentially go f-yourself and continue using Windows if you don't instantly "get it." Again, you think your operating system will be globally adopted why???

Re:The Culture of "RTFM"

[parvenu74]

What is intuitive to you may not be to someone else, including someone who is quite savvy on another platform but unfamiliar with the general way of doing things on Linux.

There are plenty of things (browsing directories, mounting/unmounting media, configuring devices) that I understand how to do. What I don't know is where config file or control panel is hidden on your O/S. It is not unreasonable to ask "where do I go to make these changes" -- it's not a request to hold my hand. If the *only* reponse you can muster to such a question contains such pejorative language and attitude then I say you are dooming your platform to non-acceptance by anyone other than the few of you who are already there.

By the way, your response proved my point much better than I could have ever stated it myself.

Re:Server 1 Server 2 Server 3

[BigBlockMopar]

Why, oh why, THG, do you make me choose the server to download videos? It's annoying to have to click, wait, cancel, ad nauseum, until you find one that's fast. Implement load balancing. Really, it's not that hard.

And what's with the ZIP files? This is like an article on migrating to Linux being available only as a Word document - albeit less proprietary. How about making gzipped tarballs available too?

Or, even better, how about figuring out how to use audio and video codecs so that the files are already compressed?

too lightweight to be any use

[edxwelch]

I think this guide is too much lacking in specific details to be any use to some one who's migrating, for instance some advice about apt-get and where to find rpms would be useful.
I have just switched myself. One of the most fustrating part of it is installing apps, not because of the dependancy problems that's easy to solve. The real problems occured for me because you need to use two user accounts, one to install and one to run the app. Windows users aren't used to this, so get it all mixed up and end up with half the configuration settings in the root directory and half in their regular home directory.

Wait a minute

[fadunk]

Why are they installing RedHat 9 again? Isn't that the one that I got an email about a couple weeks ago saying there will be no official updates anymore?

Not that I'll stop using it, or that other people won't come up with updates, but for the very beginner, wouldn't something a bit more current like Redhat Fedora be better? And quite similar?

I think the moderator is missing the point here;

[Progman3K]

It's a poke at Slashdot; where when we're bored, if there isn't a dragon to fight, well, we'll just invent something directed against SCO/Microsoft.

Parody, really.

Re:Server 1 Server 2 Server 3

[not5150]

It's probably zipped so the video doesn't stream.

Let me summarize the article for you:

[oldosadmin]

1) Since you're so dumb, we're gonna show you how to configure your BIOS to boot off the CD. 2) Even though the installer is self-explanitory, we're going to include, not one, but TWO pages of screenshots and mindless blather so we can rake in advertising $$$. 3) Linux sucks because every program doesn't have a setup.exe. You actually have to think. God forbid we take the 5 minutes to install apt to shoot everyone of our "dependency hell" arguments out of the water. 4) Linux is good! We promise! Ignore all the negative stuff in this article! (This is not meant to be funny. In fact, I think it's quite insightful.)

Puzzle Pirates

[Jagasian]

Puzzle Pirates is another great game that runs on Linux.

video5.avi

[omega9]

Ok, so, in video5.avi they install Samba through RPM. Seems nice enough...

First they describe Samba as a web server for Linux. Then, on a first install attempt, it shows a screen full of conflicts, so they just --force it.

Couldn't they find a friend who knew a thing or two about Linux to say "Uhh..."?

Good Effort

[windside]

But it won't do the trick.

One of the biggest boons of Windows is the ease with which multimedia playback (read: video) is integrated with the OS. IMHO, Windows Media Player is an undesirable program for many reasons, but it gets the job done.

On Linux, the only app that comes close is MPlayer. I've used Linux for several years in an academic setting and in the last year I've had a chance to become my own sysadmin for the first time. I had no problem installing Redhat 9 from CDs and things were going well, then I tried to install MPlayer and the associated Mozilla plugin. Hell on Earth, my friends. Eventually, I made things work, but not without a few days of constant headaches.

[Hang in there, the point is coming...]

When I saw Multimedia programs in the preamble to the THG article, I was delighted. Unfortunately, the author drops the ball by saying "you can choose from Xine or MPlayer, here are some links".

Sigh.

Realistically, I shouldn't be griping about this. I don't have the know-how to write a FAQ about getting MPlayer to integrate well and I'm not sure if such a person exists. What I do know is that if I'm ever going to convince myself to make the switchover from Win-to-Lin at home (and hopefully persuade my parents and my brother to do the same), I'm going to need some sort of comprehensive HOWTO for setting up MPlayer, including the Mozilla plugin.