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Rutan's SpaceshipOne Hits 200,000 Feet

An anonymous reader writes "Burt Rutan's privately-built SpaceshipOne is one step closer to winning the X-Prize after zooming to what witnesses say was somewhere around 200,000 feet on only its third powered flight. (See also the partial update from Scaled Composites.)"

292 comments

  1. geez by B3ryllium · · Score: 1, Informative

    Nearly 38 miles ... dayam, that's practically low earth orbit ...

    1. Re:geez by DroopyStonx · · Score: 2, Informative

      Low Earth Orbit is actually about 93 miles (150 km) up.

      Almost halfway there, not bad.

      --
      We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
    2. Re:geez by hanssprudel · · Score: 3, Informative


      No, LEO starts at around 200 miles (above 300 km). And the altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the other is speed...

    3. Re:geez by lazn · · Score: 1

      If you had read the article, you would see that they hit 212000 feet, or almost 41 miles. not almost 38.. but what is 3 miles between slashdot posters?

      ==>Lazn

    4. Re:geez by DroopyStonx · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually... this is wrong too. 93km is the limit in which the gravitational drag becomes smaller, but orbit at that level is very unstable as the object will eventually fall back to earth.

      Stable orbit is 350km minimum to 1400 km

      More info here

      --
      We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
    5. Re:geez by Mattcelt · · Score: 4, Funny

      but what is 3 miles between slashdot posters?

      Not enough.

    6. Re:geez by steveb964 · · Score: 1

      but what is 3 miles between slashdot posters?

      There is 3 miles in between reading TFA and not reading TFA, that's all.

    7. Re:geez by Uma+Thurman · · Score: 1

      Gravitational drag? What is that?

      The acceleration due to gravity is practically identacal to the acceleration at sea level. There's not less gravity in orbit.

      --
      This is America, damnit. Speak Spanish!
    8. Re:geez by amightywind · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, LEO starts at around 200 miles (above 300 km). And the altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the other is speed...

      Since we're being so precise you mean geocentric position and velocity. There are infinitely many orbits both, circular and ellipical, for arbitrary altitude and speed.

      --
      an ill wind that blows no good
    9. Re:geez by pilgrim23 · · Score: 1

      If Paul Allen and Rutan and the team do succeed in getting people up there without $800 toilet seats and 18 bureaucrats to occupy each one.. then...almost ALL sins of Redmond will be forgiven

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    10. Re:geez by the_thunderbird · · Score: 1

      Thats not bad, its nice to see that ordinary people are getting closer to achieving space flight :P caffiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine! :P

    11. Re:geez by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      Any idea what the launch cost is expected to be or how much payload there is on SpaceShipOne?

      It may be fun and cynical to attribute the cost of getting to space to bureaucratic overhead, but it's seldom true. Getting to space is HARD.

      By the way, I think you're confusing your stereotypes of the military and of NASA. Although, NASA has had its problems, too, mainly for being too trusting of contractors. The company that I used to work at, Rockwell Collins, once had a contract for the shuttle. The shuttle project had no cap, so everyone started charging their hours to it. Rockwell was eventually caught and punished, but you get the idea.

      --
      "She was out of her depth in a shallow pool." -- Peggy Noonan on Sarah Palin
    12. Re:geez by Rei · · Score: 1

      Paul Allen and Rutan are "ordinary people"? Wow... I've got this average joe to introduce you to.. he goes by "Bill G.".

      --
      "She was out of her depth in a shallow pool." -- Peggy Noonan on Sarah Palin
    13. Re:geez by the_thunderbird · · Score: 1

      Dude I was trying to be facetious! Ah well... Been working to hard I guess

    14. Re:geez by vmaxxxed · · Score: 1

      Wait, wait.... earth orbit is achived by speed, not height.

      Once you achieve orbital speed, you are in orbit. The only reason you need height, is because the atmospehere gets on the way. In the moon you can orbit at any altitude.

      Space Ship one is not even close to orbital speeds. Orbit requires something equivalent to MACH 28.0

      Its just a very heigh jump, thats it. Impressive, never the less....

    15. Re:geez by uberdave · · Score: 1

      According to X-Prize rules, the payload is one to three humans, and enough ballast to make up enough mass for three humans.

    16. Re:geez by Phurd+Phlegm · · Score: 1
      Nearly 38 miles ... dayam, that's practically low earth orbit ...

      Not quite. LEO is not just an altitude--it's a speed. You've got to get up to around 5 miles per second, too. While it's pretty impressive for a privately-funded vehicle, it's a long shot from LEO. For those that are interested, here's an orbital speed calculator from NASA. Unfortunately, it doesn't work for altitudes below 185 kilometers (since it says they're unstable). But the speeds near the surface are pretty close to one another anyway.

    17. Re:geez by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Gravitational drag? What is that? This

    18. Re:geez by smartalix · · Score: 1

      Low Earth Orbit may be at 93 miles, but the official boundary of space as recognized by the US Air Force is 50. Any pilot who flys higher than that is authorized to wear astronaut wings. This was accomplished regularly during the X-15 rocket-plane program.

      --
      Read a preview of my novel CYBERCHILD at www.smartalix.com/cyberchild
  2. Um ah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    zooming to what witnesses say was somewhere around 200,000 feet...

    Can you even see Spaceship 1 at 200,000? If I recall, the engine cuts off and Spaceship 1 coasts up the rest of the way, so there is no trail to follow.

    1. Re:Um ah... by Carnildo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Can you even see Spaceship 1 at 200,000? If I recall, the engine cuts off and Spaceship 1 coasts up the rest of the way, so there is no trail to follow.

      True, there's no exhaust track. But you can follow it on radar, or through a telescope, or you can estimate the altitude based on altitude and velocity at engine cutoff.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    2. Re:Um ah... by thentil · · Score: 1

      Why would they use "witnesses" when Scaled has it in their journal at 211,400 feet?

    3. Re:Um ah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many of the witnesses had radios allowing them to hear the test frequency that Scaled uses. "Mike... you're peaking out at 212" was heard, so everybody listening knew they meant that he made it to 212,000 feet.

      Oliver/XCOR Aerospace

  3. Two thirds of the way there... by tinrobot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Isn't the goal 62.5 miles... that's about 330,000 feet.

    They're getting awfully close. I get the distinct feeling this one is going to win it very soon.

    1. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For people using real standards, 200.000 feet is 60.960 meter.

    2. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by the_mad_poster · · Score: 1, Funny

      I get the distinct feeling this one is going to win it very soon.

      In other news, Dewey has been pronounced the winner in a major victory over Harry S. Truman.

      It ain't over 'till the fat lady sings :)

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    3. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by tinrobot · · Score: 1

      For people using real standards, 200.000 feet is 60.960 meter

      Kilometers.

    4. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by msheppard · · Score: 2, Informative

      The article fails to do the math for us...

      The test appears to have got the space craft to 61Kilometers, the Xprize is 100Kilometers (twice)

      So yes, they are getting close.
      M@

      --
      Krispy Cream is people
    5. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      Some places use a "." instead of a "," ...

    6. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some places use a "." instead of a "," ...

      yes, and we're slowly bombing them out of existence.

      get with the "," program or die

    7. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Hays · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the xprize require 3 people? not just 1 pilot? That's 300ish pounds of dead weight... could make a significant difference.

    8. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by plj · · Score: 4, Interesting

      According to international settings in Mac OS 10.3.3:

      60,960.00 metres in UK
      60,960.00 meters in US ;-)
      60.960,00 metres in Germany and Spain
      60 960,00 metres in Finland, France, Russia and Sweden (I live in Finland)
      60960.00 meters in US/POSIX

      Actually, space as a thousand separator sucks ass. There are zillions of non-aware (i.e. english-centric) programs that want to wrap words in the middle of numbers...

      --
      “Wait for Hurd if you want something real” –Linus
    9. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by nacturation · · Score: 2, Funny
      For people using real standards, 200.000 feet is 60.960 meter
      Kilometers.

      No... meters. Most places in Europe use a decimal point as the thousands separator -- so $10,000.00 here becomes $10.000,00 in Europe. But even if you ignore this fact, the original poster is still correct. After all, 200.000 feet (200 feet to six significant digits) is equal to 60.960 meters (60 meters, 96.0 centimeters).

      Of course, in North American-speak, he meant that 200,000 feet is 60,960 meters.
      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    10. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by another_henry · · Score: 4, Informative
      It doesn't actually require 3 people. 1 pilot and sandbags (or whatever) equivalent to two other people are also allowed.

      Presumably Rutan will have designed for this weight. It's probably just a matter of filling up the tanks all the way, but they'll be doing more testing than just "kick the tires and light the fires".

      --
      "Studies have shown that people who eat peanuts live longer than those who do not eat."
    11. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "1 pilot and sandbags (or whatever) equivalent to two other people are also allowed."

      American or European?

    12. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which is why they load the capsule with weights simulating the two other passangers.

    13. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that supposed to be African or European?

      I'd go for African. Those Ethiopians are really skinny.

      *ducks*

    14. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

      It gives me great hope for the future to think that a good percentage of slashdot commentators will eventually be working on projects where they will be required to convert between different measurement systems on a daily basis.

    15. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by CaseyB · · Score: 1
      American or European?

      "What? I don't know that! Auuuuuuuugh!"

    16. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by b4rtm4n · · Score: 0

      *dead weight* ...? That's really going to encourage volunteer passengers :-D

      --
      "goatse? What's that? Anyone have a link?" - AC
    17. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by KILNA · · Score: 1

      Perl avoids all this confusion and uses underscores as a thousands separator! How about that for a nugget of useless knowledge.

      --
      Error: PANTS NOT FOUND. Press <F1> to continue.
    18. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by stanmann · · Score: 1

      Slashdot Troll. Definitely want to have plenty of room once regular flights start.

      --
      Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
    19. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      kilo prefix (a which is a type of of affix) of the standard Système International (Not to be confused with metric) prefix-notation not a preposition Preposition is like "ass" in the world "assmonkey" Which is what you are. You are an over confident under educated assmonkey. Teacher says it helps to use a sentance.

    20. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I bet Rutan forgot to read the fucking rulebook before dropping millions of dollars on building this aircraft.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    21. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by hkfczrqj · · Score: 1

      60.960,00 metres in Germany and Spain

      Bzzt! Wrong.

      60.960,00 metros in Spain ;)

    22. Re:Two thirds of the way there... by Zachary+Kessin · · Score: 1

      Yes, but on a test flight where something could go wrong and kill the crew you don't have people you don't need on board. Later they will put passangers on, but for right now there is no reason to do it. You would just put them at risk.

      --
      Erlang Developer and podcaster
  4. Sounds like... by brejc8 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Rutan's SpaceshipOne Hits 200,000 Feet
    As it launched it turned 90 degrees and skimmed along an inch off the ground through the croud.

  5. There should have been an earth shattering ka-boom by StarWynd · · Score: 4, Funny

    Chalk up another booming flight of the privately-backed SpaceShipOne

    I don't know about everyone else, but I just hate it when my spaceship goes *boom*.

  6. Let me guess by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 0, Funny

    Rutan's SpaceshipOne Hits 200,000 Feet

    So, did he make a quarter of the population of Mojave line up along the road and drive over their feet with the truck carrying SpaceShipOne?

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:Let me guess by axonal · · Score: 0

      No, but more likely they created a computer controlled hummer that towed the spaceship 200,000 feet before hitting a wall.

  7. Where can I buy a ticket? by Power+Everywhere · · Score: 1

    Vomit bags under seat.

  8. The final countdown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Do the other teams go around hoping it will explode? That the pilot will break a leg? Just what is the socially accepted way to hope your competition fails?

    1. Re:The final countdown by Billy+the+Mountain · · Score: 1

      Well, if it were Grand Theft Auto, the acceptable thing would be to steal Spaceship 1, take it to Ace's Bomb Shop to install a remote control bomb and then high-tail it back to mojave within the four minute time limit. And then, of course, watch the fun!

      BTM

      --
      That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
  9. Spaceship One by ACNeal · · Score: 3, Funny

    Isn't that the name of the space ship Andy Griffith made to go get the garbage off the moon?

    1. Re:Spaceship One by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here ya go, straight out of my bookmarks:

      http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad /9 782/salvage1.html

    2. Re:Spaceship One by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, that was "The Vulture"

  10. Just think by An-Unnecessarily-Lon · · Score: 0

    They could sell this Technology to the NKoreans and then they would have a working ICBM.

    1. Re:Just think by WaxParadigm · · Score: 4, Funny
      They could sell this Technology to the NKoreans and then they would have a working ICBM.

      Not just an ICBM but a manned ICBM. You can imagine the intense competition for that job.

    2. Re:Just think by MindStalker · · Score: 0

      Umm, you do know the japs frequently manned their bombs. Not just drove planes into things as a last ditch effort but real bombs that were manned for control.

    3. Re:Just think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No offense, but can you offer any proof of this?

      This is the first time I've heard of this...

    4. Re:Just think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does that have to do with N. Korea.
      They're two separate countries and two totally distinct cultures.

      Trying to equate the two as you do is racist and assinine.

    5. Re:Just think by Rei · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if they're not too interested in that whole "payload" thing.... ;)

      --
      "She was out of her depth in a shallow pool." -- Peggy Noonan on Sarah Palin
    6. Re:Just think by Snarph · · Score: 2, Informative
    7. Re:Just think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or they could sell it to NASA. I hear they're looking for a reliable, reusable spacecraft.

    8. Re:Just think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, sell it to Hezbollah or Hamas. They seem to have plenty of pilots-in-training already.

    9. Re:Just think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's like comparing northern USians with southerners. (you decide which group is more offended by such a compatison, I'm not commenting on THAT!)

    10. Re:Just think by glenalec · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I get sick of Chinese nationals (I live in China) asking me what I am going to do about President Bush because I'm Australian and they can't tell the difference. True! It is REALLY annoying.

      --
      The man with no surname and a silly hat

      On the universe: It's bunk.
    11. Re:Just think by glenalec · · Score: 1

      I mean, they KNOW I'm Australian when they ask. Not that they can't visually tell the difference, which I couldn't either.

      --
      The man with no surname and a silly hat

      On the universe: It's bunk.
    12. Re:Just think by pyrrhonist · · Score: 1
      The Germans thought about using suicide missions in WW2 as well:
      As germany was losing the war, there were some fanatic and influential nazi officers like Hanna Reitsch, a famous female test pilot and pre-war gliding champion, Otto Skorzeny, a special operations expert, and Hajo Hermann, a senior bomber and night fighter leader, who suggested, unrelated to the japanese use of kamikaze suicide pilots, that germany will use volunteers as suicide pilots in order to overcome the allied technological and numerical advantages with their fanatic spirit. The idea had roots in german mythology that was glorified by nazi propaganda, it was "Totenritt", a death ride.

      The aircraft to be used was the Fi-103 Reichenberg, a manned version of the german V-1 cruise missile, equipped with a small cockpit and flight controls. After two volunteers were killed trying to test fly it, it was successfully flown by Hanna Reitsch, the experienced test pilot who was the first to sign as a volunteer suicide pilot. 24 V-1 cruise missiles were initially modified to manned suicide missiles and over 70 volunteers, mostly young recruits, began training to fly the V-1 as a suicide missile. They were called 'self-sacrificers'. Theoretically they were supposed to try to bail out after aiming their piloted missile to its final dive at the target, but it was clear that the chances of survival were very low. Also, unlike the much faster rocket-powered japanese Okha suicide missile, that was much faster than all allied fighters, the jet-powered V-1 was slow enough to be intercepted.

      From Luftwaffe Bomber Wing KG 200
      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    13. Re:Just think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      What does that have to do with N. Korea.

      Absolutely nothing.

      They're two separate countries and two totally distinct cultures.

      No shit, but everyone is human, and thus, capable of suicide missions.

      Trying to equate the two as you do is racist and assinine.

      He wasn't trying to equate them, dipshit.

      People like you that try to find racism in everything are assinine.

    14. Re:Just think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you look at the careers page of Scaled Composite, all jobs require secret clearance, implying that the government would have something to say about anyone (including the owners of Scaled Composites) selling their technology to a potential enemy nation or group.

  11. Not the best way to determine altitude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    after zooming to what witnesses say was somewhere around 200,000 feet ...

    Witnesses looking up into the sky:
    "Wow, that looks like, what, about 100,000 ..."
    "Nah, looks more like, I'd say 200,000 feet to me."
    "Ya, about 200,000 feet looks right."

    1. Re:Not the best way to determine altitude by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      You bring up an interesting point.... how exactly do the X-Prize folks judge this?

      I dobut that they rely on the instruments on board the craft, as it could be prone to cheating (I'm not even sure if an altimeter would work at that elevation...).

      If not, then how do they do it? (Also keep in mind that the craft travels MUCH more than 200,000 feet. AFAIK, it does not fly at a 90 degree angle to the earth -- it would be foolish for it to do so.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    2. Re:Not the best way to determine altitude by jesser · · Score: 1

      "Entrants will be required to carry an Ansari X Prize-provided flight recorder to monitor the flight profile and altitude achieved." http://www.xprize.org/teams/guidelines.html

      I don't know how it works or how it protects against cheating.

      --
      The shareholder is always right.
    3. Re:Not the best way to determine altitude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The british have invented this new machine ... it is called ... "RADAR" ... I think. Maybe they could use that? ;-)

    4. Re:Not the best way to determine altitude by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Put a tamper-evident inertial reference box onboard. Track it with a telescope and a laser. Use GPS. This is not a difficult problem to solve.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  12. Salvage One and by Phanatik · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The chick was hot.

  13. Re-launch? by Gunfighter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I skimmed the article and didn't catch anything about the re-launch within the given time period. Are they going to try and reuse the vehicle anytime soon? This, IMHO, is one of the most interesting requirements of winning the X-Prize.

    Anyone who's ever been on the tours at Kennedy Space Center knows that the space shuttle launches don't begin with the countdown. Rather, they begin when the space shuttle touches down and the crews start preparing the shuttle for re-launch. Given that it takes (took?) NASA a helluva long time to get the shuttles prepped for re-launch, I'm wondering how these teams in pursuit of the X-Prize are doing with their plans to quickly refuel and relaunch the craft(s) within the alloted time period.

    --
    -- Stu

    /. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
    1. Re:Re-launch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's exactly what I was wondering. Considering that they made it to about 60% of the target altitude, I'm wondering if they're going to shoot for a fast turn-around ( 2 weeks) and go duplicate the same test flight, just to test out their refurbishing process. If they can do this, then we could see the X-Prize fall in another month or two.

    2. Re:Re-launch? by mahdi13 · · Score: 2, Informative

      They got the OK to run manned LEO (Low Earth Orbit) flights from the DOT (Department of Transportation) for the next year, so I'd say it's a safe bet that they will be doing this again a couple more times.

      --
      "Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
    3. Re:Re-launch? by foolish · · Score: 1

      this isn't a part of the final attempt, just another one of their (very comprehensive) tests. I would guess, based off of their findings in this flight profile, that they will attempt a full or near full altitude test flight before offically attempting the 2 flights in 2 weeks test.

      My WAG would be another flight in early-mid June, barring any vehicle issues.

      Followed by the 2 flights on or near the 4th and the 17th/20th of July dates.

      But what do I know, I just spectate.

    4. Re:Re-launch? by captain_craptacular · · Score: 4, Informative

      There is a lot of difference between spaceship one and a space shuttle. FOr example the entire exterior of the shuttle has to be examined and significant sections replaced due to the heat of re-entry. This is not an issue for spaceship one because it doesn't gain a fraction of the altitude or speed of the shuttle...

      --
      They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
    5. Re:Re-launch? by at_kernel_99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The technology of WhiteKnight / SpaceshipOne is radically different from that of the shuttle. Largely due to 2 things: 1) Burt et al are only going for 100,000 meters rather than orbit. 2) Advances in technology since the 70s, when the shuttle was designed.

      Personally I expect that they'll be capable of relaunching within hours - well below the two weeks allowed by the contest organizers.

    6. Re:Re-launch? by robbymet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It takes the Shuttle to so long to relaunch because the entire craft needs to be recertified before relaunch. That is because the design has virtually no margin, so under normal operating conditions there are components that are on the verge of failure. These components must all be inspected and potentially replaced before another flight can occur. A small, reasonably designed vehicle should be able to hit a two week turn around no problem. DARPA's RASCAL and FALCON programs require a 24-hour turnaround.

    7. Re:Re-launch? by stienman · · Score: 1

      I hope you understand that getting a very small, very lightweight object up to 330 thousand feet and the reusing it is vastly different than getting a very large, extremely heavy object up to 1 million feet.

      There are a ton of other differences (purpose, flexibility, etc) but the main problem I suspect is that the shuttles are essentially 1970's technology. Now we can do so much more with so much less (replace much of the mechanical stuff with electronic systems, etc). There is a tradeoff between reliability and simplicity, though, that can swing both ways.

      I'm sure NASA is keeping a keen eye on these ventures, and I'm sure these ventures are keepign a keen eye on keeping everything closed and proprietary.

      Can't wait to see the first patent battles where one company prevents another from launching because they use the same design for single click launch cycle (Amazon's gonna go for the money in this!)

      -Adam

    8. Re:Re-launch? by Rorschach1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The fact that they're staying suborbital is the big difference. Still, any time you're messing with powerful rockets and huge aerodynamic stresses, it's best to take your time and check things out.

      As for the claim that improvements in technology since the time the shuttle was designed have reduced processing time... well, I'm not so sure about that. I only deal with unmanned expendable vehicles, but there is a LOT that goes into getting them ready for launch. Of course, a large part of that is administrative stuff. I've heard that it takes 2 million signatures to get the shuttle off the ground, and I believe it.

      SpaceshipOne may not have so much of that to worry about now, but don't worry... the bureaucrats will catch up eventually.

    9. Re:Re-launch? by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

      Now we can do so much more with so much less (replace much of the mechanical stuff with electronic systems, etc).

      Wasn't there an article some time back which said that the combined computing power of all the shuttle computers system could be handled by a single laptop?

    10. Re:Re-launch? by M1FCJ · · Score: 1
      There is a difference but not that much. You must be confusing yourself with Apollo era propoganda. The delta V to get to the moon and back is much higher than your sub-orbital and orbital flights. Also there is a smaller mass to deccelerate hence less energy turned into heat. Pieces of rock survive derobital speeds and temperatures easily and they are much much faster compared to your average tin can spaceship returning back to earth.

      The reason they have to examine&replace bits of Shuttles everythime is because of the fragility of the tiles. If they used 60's style heat shields that wouldn't be a problem (or much higher technology like X-15).

    11. Re:Re-launch? by Kallahar · · Score: 1

      SS1 is completely reusable, just refill the rockets (liquid fuel) and you're set. The space shuttle uses solid fuel, which is a lot harder to handle/replace. It's also substantially larger and heavier, and it's reentry heat tiles need more maintenance.

      My guess is that SS1 could fly twice in one day if they wanted it to.

    12. Re:Re-launch? by Rei · · Score: 1

      That is very true. Of course, SpaceShipOne has the advantage of a higher surface area to mass ratio, but, yes, I seriously doubt it could handle the notably higher energy of reentering from a true LEO orbit.

      --
      "She was out of her depth in a shallow pool." -- Peggy Noonan on Sarah Palin
    13. Re:Re-launch? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The space shuttle uses solid fuel, which is a lot harder to handle/replace

      Well, no. Solid Fuel is much easier to handle and replace than crygenic fuels.

      And SS1 is a hybrid, so it may require replacement of the solid fuel portion of its engine. It is designed for quick replacement though, so I don't imagine that it will be much of an issue.

      Biggest difference between the two (not counting size) is that SS1 will never approach the nearly 8000 m/s required to put a Shuttle into orbit. Which dramatically reduces wear and tear on SS1. Or increases it on the shuttle, depending on perspective.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    14. Re:Re-launch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SS1 uses a hybrid rocket design consisting of a solid engine and nozzle assembly filled with rubber and liquid/gas part of nitrous oxide. Refueling is as easy as bolting on a new rocket motor and refilling the N20 tank as well as refilling compressed air tanks (pnematic control surfaces) and recharge the batteries.

    15. Re:Re-launch? by Moofie · · Score: 1

      You mean the 60's style heat shields that were good for one and only one re-entry? I'm glad you're so much smarter than those guys at NASA.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    16. Re:Re-launch? by JayBat · · Score: 1
      Wasn't there an article some time back which said that the combined computing power of all the shuttle computers system could be handled by a single laptop?

      Ummmm, not the part where you get to fail two of the (redundant) flight computers and still keep flying. :-)

    17. Re:Re-launch? by jayteedee · · Score: 1

      Actually, DARPA's FALCON programs require a 24-hour notice to take a new vehicle and prep it for launch and a 2-hour time (after the 24) to actually complete the launch itself. No re-use is invisioned by any of the 9 or so competitors, except for Space-X with their re-usable 1st stage, but I doubt they would turn that stage around in less than a few weeks. If Orbital bids their Pegasus vehicle for the FALCON program, then you could say that that "stage" is re-useable, however, Orbital probably can't come up with a good story to get to the $5 million launch cost with Pegasus.

      --
      Religion and science are both 90% crap..but that doesn't negate the other 10%.
    18. Re:Re-launch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the shuttle is an expensive, poorly designed piece of shit. Its a space lemon. Just like the ISS which was redesigned so many times and in so many guises that its tragic.

  14. Thanks ! by AtariAmarok · · Score: 4, Funny

    You've brought back many a memory of model rocketry. Bless the memory of Vern Estes.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:Thanks ! by AJWM · · Score: 1

      You've brought back many a memory of model rocketry. Bless the memory of Vern Estes.

      And G. Harry Stine.

      --
      -- Alastair
    2. Re:Thanks ! by ShortSpecialBus · · Score: 2, Funny

      You can't forget the father of modern pocket rocketry, Hugh G. Rection

      --
      //FIXME: Bad .sig
    3. Re:Thanks ! by ballpoint · · Score: 1

      Indeed !

      My first experiments with self-made stuff (rolled cardboard for body AND engine, KClO3 + powdered sugar fuel) on a outdoor basketball field made spectators dance. I still don't know why that rocket zoomed a few inches above the ground on an erratic trajectory while staying inside the fields' painted boundaries without hitting anything or anyone.

      A great sensation.

      --
      Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
    4. Re:Thanks ! by njan · · Score: 1

      Because your center of mass was further forward than your center of propulsion; hence the reason for fins - they drag the overall center of mass backwards to a point at which it's at or behind the center of propulsion, thus ensuring that ballistically, your rocket is more stable, and stuff like that doesn't happen.

      What?! It's just rocket science!

      --
      I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you
    5. Re:Thanks ! by sydres · · Score: 1

      so the last Rocket engine I built blew up thankfully no one was injured, the first rocket engine i built never launched but ran great on the test bed. I hope soon to build a liquid fueled engine, well actually a forced O2/kerosene(or isopropanol)model that switchesto air breathing like the old V1 rocket once I even built a simple Ion engine though it most definitly had no oomph just a little hot air nice experiment though

  15. I misread that at first ... by burgburgburg · · Score: 2, Funny
    and I couldn't help but be impressed that Bhutan had produced a rocket that capable in a country that small.

    Oh, well.

    1. Re:I misread that at first ... by fatmanone · · Score: 1

      well, looks like it's the local trend around there :)

      no rocket? get one or get lost!

  16. Packing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't forget to bring a towel!

    1. Re:Packing by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

      And sufficent fuel. It's 38 miles to the nearest gas station.

    2. Re:Packing by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1
      And sufficent fuel. It's 38 miles to the nearest gas station.

      No worries; it's all downhill.
      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
  17. Obligatory Simpsons Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "How would you like to get higher than you've ever been?"

    "Become an astronaut? Sure!"

  18. Third Flight by SEWilco · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, that's two flights more than most spacecraft achieve.

    1. Re:Third Flight by jan+de+bont · · Score: 2, Informative
      It was approx. the 54th flight of the carrier aircraft and the 14th flight of the spacecraft. 'Third flight' refers to the third time they fired the rocket on the spacecraft.

      Source: The "Test Updates" page on the scaled composites web site (link in article).

      Jan

  19. altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the othe by dpilot · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, the way I heard it, altitude is only 1/25 the trick to orbit. The other 24/25 is speed. I might presume that the kinetic energy necessary for LEO isn't really 24X the potential energy of that altitude, but perhaps that rather reflects hauling the fuel up there to build up the velocity. I need to sit down and do some math on this.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  20. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by InternationalCow · · Score: 3, Informative

    It wasn't. Paul Allen is no longer of Microsoft, although he lives off the money he made when he still was part of it. Never mind where the money came from. If this takes off (pun intended), scaled up versions of the Rutan plane may one day bring us hypersonic passenger transport. From Amsterdam to New York in one hour, anyone? It'd be nice to see a private venture beat NASA, ESA and every other *SA out there. AND I would be first in line for the first intercontinental sub-orbital flight.

    --
    ----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
  21. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 1, Funny

    Keep in mind that this was paid by the Microsoft tax often ridiculed by slashdotters....

    Well, the Linux community can do just as well!

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  22. Videos by HeghmoH · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I really, really want some videos of this or any other of SS1's test flights. Does anybody know if such things are out there to be downloaded?

    --
    Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
    1. Re:Videos by brap999 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Its on there website in the photos section, they have some movie clips. Here's the link: http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/New_Index/p hotos/photos_text.htm

    2. Re:Videos by wthompson · · Score: 3, Informative

      The only video footage I have come across is on SpaceDev's Web site. It shows a joint White Knight/SpaceShipOne take off.

    3. Re:Videos by gwydion04 · · Score: 1

      For those of you with NewsPass... Actually, I don't have NewsPass, but it worked with Mozilla Firefox....?

  23. Salvage One by freshfromthevat · · Score: 3, Informative
    Andy Griffith flew Salvage One

    Salvage 1 webpage

    --
    .. Blub falls right in the middle of the abstractness continuum. -- Paul Graham
    1. Re:Salvage One by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      Andy Griffith flew Salvage One

      Wasn't the vehicle itself called the Vulture?

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  24. Does anyone know? by Crazieeman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How is John Carmack progressing with Armadillo Aerospace? The only major flights I keep hearing about are Rutan's.

    Personally I've been rooting for Carmack, but thats probably because I've just been a long fan of all of his work..

    1. Re:Does anyone know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've done tethered hover tests which I believe have been fairly successful. See their page for more details.

    2. Re:Does anyone know? by foolish · · Score: 4, Informative
      You can follow the full progress of the Armadillo team at http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Ho me.

      They're making some really neat progress with the jet vane concept, but until they get site and vehicle clearance they won't be coming close to catching up with the Scaled Team.

      That's ok though, each team: Scaled, Armadillo, XCor, DaVinci, etc. is approaching things differently, so who knows we might end up with a heterogenous and competitive rocket industry.

      Heck, there's even JP Aerospace with their airship/ballon platform to orbit method!

    3. Re:Does anyone know? by Crazieeman · · Score: 1

      I think a reasonably competitive industry would usher in a new era of space exploration. We wouldn't be confined by the total monopoly of government organizations like NASA and the ESA which are limited by a constant lack of public interest.

    4. Re:Does anyone know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the whole point of the X-Prize. If we wait for NASA, your grandkids will still be watching little probes crash land on Mars instead of practical manned missions, let alone a colony or anything.

    5. Re:Does anyone know? by johnjay · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the balloon platform idea, as attempted by JP Aerospace among others, is the most brilliant one out there. I would be interested in reading an explanation of why a group would decide not to use a balloon launch platform. The only drawback I can see is that it's boring, slow and vulnerable. These are only significant problems if you're building a space-fleet or something equally bizarre. For a space-truck, the balloon launch sounds like the cheapest way to go.

    6. Re:Does anyone know? by Lagrange5 · · Score: 1, Redundant

      That's ok though, each team: Scaled, Armadillo, XCor, DaVinci, etc. is approaching things differently, so who knows we might end up with a heterogenous and competitive rocket industry.

      And that should be the point. If the Rutan/Scaled team achieve their goal, that doesn't mean the other teams should roll up their tents and go home. The real goal is a vital, innovative rocket industry that pushes the boundaries for future space travel. It would be great to see every team achieve the 100 km goal, no matter who does it first or even last.

      --
      "Folks just call him Buckethead." -- Les Claypool
    7. Re:Does anyone know? by evilviper · · Score: 1
      I think the balloon platform idea, as attempted by JP Aerospace among others, is the most brilliant one out there.

      Why? How is it any more brilliant than launching from a standard airplane? Or how is it better than having a helicopter rotor?

      I think everyone in their right mind knows that jet-fuel from liftoff is the wrong way to go, and more conventional means of taking it to the edge of the atmosphere is the only economically way to go.

      However, I don't see how a ballon is any better than other methods of lift. It certainly is far slower than the two alternatives I've listed.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    8. Re:Does anyone know? by uberdave · · Score: 1

      A helium lift baloon would require zero power to get significant altitude. They can also gain more altitude than a plane, and much higher altitude than a helicopter.

    9. Re:Does anyone know? by evilviper · · Score: 1
      A helium lift baloon would require zero power to get significant altitude

      Yes, but "zero power" makes no difference. If it's piggy-backed on a plane, it doesn't waste any energy of the ship's.

      The price of helium is rather high. It would certainly be cheaper to be hauled by a helicopter or plane.

      They can also gain more altitude than a plane

      I can't see how it's possible for a baloon to go higher than all types of planes ever made... Spy planes are almost in orbit themselves. NASA's Helios gets very high altitudes themselves.

      Those are only ones that I am familiar with. I'm sure there are more conventional civilian aircraft that can get to extremely high altitudes.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    10. Re:Does anyone know? by johnjay · · Score: 1

      I can't answer your question definitively, because searchs for the "Highest Altitude Plane" on Google tends to return the X-15, which would (in my view) be a booster rocket, not a plane to piggy-back on.
      Helios seems designed to max out at about 100,000 ft.(Helios Site - 3rd paragraph)
      The highest balloon flight was 113,740 ft. (assuming this site is up-to-date - 3rd paragraph).
      JP Project's .pdf file marketting release on the subject says 140,000 feet, but I think they've only made it to 100,00 so far, so I don't know if that's a realistic expectation.

      The price of jet fuel vs. the price of helium is a good issue to raise. I'd have to do some research to compare them. It would take me a while to figure out reasonable estimates for each (which is an example why I want to read someone elses analysis rather than do the work myself ;-).
      It also seems that a balloon launch with a parachute backup is a safer system than a jet airplane. Less working parts to malfunction, and easily understood principles.

    11. Re:Does anyone know? by evilviper · · Score: 1
      It also seems that a balloon launch with a parachute backup is a safer system than a jet airplane.

      A jet launch, with a parachute backup, should be just as safe.

      Less working parts to malfunction, and easily understood principles.

      It is simple, of course, but airplanes are something that have already been developed, so it's not as if you need to waste time inventing the airplane... Also, planes aren't 100% reliable, but they are pretty solid these days. I doubte helium ballons are any more reliable, since they can pop, due to weak points, stress due to tempurature change or winds, etc.

      I can tell you with certainty that helium is quite expensive. I don't know the exact weight of their craft, nor the operating cost of a large aircraft, but common sense dictates that enough helium to lift it will be at least 10X more expensive than an aircraft.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    12. Re:Does anyone know? by johnjay · · Score: 1

      Well, the expense of Helium seems to be the deciding factor, then. A balloon stage would have to get high enough above a plane that the savings on rocket fuel would offset the additional cost of the gas. Thanks for the info.

  25. I've still called it... by theirishman · · Score: 1

    Shotgun... & TheHawke is driving... :)

  26. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by RichMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > Keep in mind that this was paid by the
    > Microsoft tax often ridiculed by slashdotters....

    Most of Paul Allen's money was from inflated Microsoft stock prices. Not actual money from Microsoft. Money from selling stock comes from investors and not Microsoft customers.

    Granted that a lot of the Microsoft stock value comes from Microsofts bank account. However strictly speaking Paul Allen and Bill Gates got most of their fortunes from the investment community who bought shares.

  27. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by hanssprudel · · Score: 1

    The ratio is going to change with orbit level. Higher orbits require less velocity, so as you get higher the "trick" shifts toward the altitude when you higher, and toward velocity when you go low.

    There is no easy way to orbit, in other ways.

  28. Does The X-Prize Ship by jwbrown77 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Have to launch under it's own power (meaning the whole ship is reuseable)? Or is it ok if it uses external breakaway parts like the Shuttle?

    --

    -----
    How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
    1. Re:Does The X-Prize Ship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think anything you land with would have to be reused. I am just guessing though.

    2. Re:Does The X-Prize Ship by cmowire · · Score: 3, Informative

      It needs to launch again 2 weeks later with no more than some arbitrarily set percentage of mass (ablative shielding, fuel, etc) replaced. So they need a minimum amount of refurbishment between flights.

    3. Re:Does The X-Prize Ship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here are the official rules.

      "no more than 10% of the flight vehicle's first-flight non-propellant mass may be replaced between the two flights." So no, the shuttle would not qualify. But then again, why the hell would you want to start at zero velocity, sitting on the ground, ignite a barely contained explosion (side note: the propellent used in the shuttle is much more dangerous that what is used in the rocket engine of SSO) just to get to space? When you stop and think about it, that's a pretty STUPID way to get into orbit.

    4. Re:Does The X-Prize Ship by jesser · · Score: 1

      So you can have breakaway parts as long as you can recover and reuse each part?

      --
      The shareholder is always right.
    5. Re:Does The X-Prize Ship by cmowire · · Score: 1

      Yeah, within the range of time given. So I imagine if you had too many parts and they were too hard to reburbish, you'd never be able to make the 2 week time crunch.

    6. Re:Does The X-Prize Ship by Orne · · Score: 1

      Yeah, at least give them some time to restock the pretzels...

  29. Re:geez-- employee of NASA?? by peragrin · · Score: 4, Funny

    he said 93Miles 150 KM not 93 km. if minimum stable orbit is 350km what is it in miles?

    You must work for NASA right?

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  30. Atmospheric drag, not gravitation by qaguru · · Score: 0

    Gravitation in LEO area is almost the same as here, on Earth.

  31. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by pseudochaotic · · Score: 0

    By slashdotting? Although, i guess slashdotting is also ridiculed by /.ers, but it won't put you in orbit... *ducks bad jokes involving burning webservers*

    --
    And the l33t shall inherit the 34r7h.
  32. Photos... by arashiakari · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here are links to the photos from the flight directly off their servers. Shot of earch in background... Apogee

    1. Re:Photos... by another_henry · · Score: 1

      Wow! Those are amazing photos! Does anyone know if that's a fish-eye lens enhancing the curvature of the Earth? I wouldn't have thought it would be so visibly curved at 60km altitude..

      --
      "Studies have shown that people who eat peanuts live longer than those who do not eat."
    2. Re:Photos... by Maimun · · Score: 1

      Are you sure these are photos from the lates flight? Check out the directory where the jpeg's are . The files are from 19.April.2004.

    3. Re:Photos... by Kallahar · · Score: 1

      Wow, where's the in-flight video? One great thing about Armadillo is that they have a ton of detail online, including lots of pictures and videos.

    4. Re:Photos... by subtropolis · · Score: 1

      yes. Look at this one

      --
      "Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
  33. It is not LEO, just the space by qaguru · · Score: 0

    LEO is Low Earth Orbit, so suborbital craft can never reach it.

  34. LEO now, Mars next by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Funny
    Budding space pioneers should now know that there is an incentive to go beyond the narrow confines of the X-Prize and go where no man has gone before. This in the form of the natural follow-up to the X-Prize, The Squiggleslash Prize For Human Achievement, which will go to the first person or group to land a person on Mars and bring them safely back home - with an expiry date of 23rd February, 2008 to discourage slacking.

    The amount of this prize was, until recently, $6,000, which by itself would be a remarkable incentive. But thanks to Stargoat, this has been increased by a massive 50% to NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS. (US$)

    If you're interested, get going! All it takes to get to Mars is a lot of imagination, thinking outside of the box, pro-active team playing and self-motivation. What are you waiting for?

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    1. Re:LEO now, Mars next by Laebshade · · Score: 1

      You forgot the main thing needed: Money. And lots of it.

    2. Re:LEO now, Mars next by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      No I didn't! The entire point of the SPFHE is to provide a monetary incentive. Come on, nine THOUSAND dollars! Wouldn't you be willing to give up everything and get working on a way to get to Mars and back for that?

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:LEO now, Mars next by Laebshade · · Score: 1

      I really hope you don't think it'll cost less than $9,000 (within the alloted time period) to travel to Mars and back, which seems to be what you're suggesting. $9,000 grand is a lot less than what people drop down in cash for an SUV.

      $9,000 is hardly a monetary incentive. I seriously hope you're joking. From re-reading that last sentence, now I KNOW you're joking.

    4. Re:LEO now, Mars next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to give Ringo less, it's up to you.

    5. Re:LEO now, Mars next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad someone got the reference... (- squiggleslash)

    6. Re:LEO now, Mars next by tmasssey · · Score: 1
      I would be willing to put up some of my personal savings for such a venture. Would an additional $5000 be interesting?

  35. Inspiring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally, I find this private space race to be very inspiring. There are few things as beautiful and fun to watch as the human mind playing at what it enjoys.

    I hope the XPrize is won this year, and that it inspires an interest in aerospace or other sciences amoung youth.

  36. Another competitor by wizarddc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't remember if he was involved in XPrize or not, but there was a guy building a ship that used peroxide as his propellant. He was most definitely a back yard builder, he had his two huge tanks for his H202 in his garage. Does anyone remember who he was, or have a link to him? I was really interested in his project a while ago, but I've lost his url.

    --
    Th
    1. Re:Another competitor by at_kernel_99 · · Score: 1
    2. Re:Another competitor by savuporo · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are probably thinking Brian "RocketGuy" Walker.
      He hasnt made much of a progress as of late, due to personal life interfering.
      You can follow all of those developments on HobbySpace RLV News and Space Log

      --
      http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
  37. Info from Scaled Composites by TyrelHaveman · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here is the actual information release from Scaled:
    "Launch conditions were 46,000 feet and 120 knots. Motor light off occurred 10 seconds after release and the vehicle boosted smoothly to 150,000 feet and Mach 2.5. Subsequent coast to apogee of 211,400 feet. During a portion of the boost, the flight director display was inoperative, however the pilot continued the planned trajectory referencing the external horizon. Reaction control authority was as predicted and the vehicle recovered in feather experiencing 1.9M and 3.5G's. Feather oscillations were actively damped by the pilot and the wing was de-feathered starting at 55,000 feet. The onboard avionics was re-booted and a smooth and uneventful landing made to Mojave." - Scaled Composites LLC

    So it looks like it went to 211,400 ft. Those witnesses knew what they were talking about.

    1. Re:Info from Scaled Composites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for those of you who like big numbers... Mach 2.5 is roughly 2000mph (3200kph).

    2. Re:Info from Scaled Composites by Drunken_Jackass · · Score: 2, Funny

      Damn.

      Third flight of the aircraft, with your primary display out, counting on a reboot to bring it back for the landing.

      That pilot sure has a pair.

      --
      There are 01 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary, and me.
    3. Re:Info from Scaled Composites by cmowire · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's a miracle of Scaled Composites design that the aircraft is actually able to be hand-flown the entire course.

      So the pilot had a pair, but Burt Rutan's ability to make the most bizare looking aircraft be easier to fly than the equivelent normal-looking aircraft is just inhuman.

    4. Re:Info from Scaled Composites by jjo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, this was presumably on a severe-clear day in the desert, so I would expect the pilot to have been able to make a visual approach and landing even if his Flight Director had not come back to life. Also, I would be surprised if they didn't have at least some backup instrumentation not associated with the FD computer, such as a simple artificial horizon.

      However, I agree that the pilot definitely has some cojones. He needs them just to get in the damn thing and light it off!

    5. Re:Info from Scaled Composites by rv8 · · Score: 1

      During a portion of the boost, the flight director display was inoperative, however the pilot continued the planned trajectory referencing the external horizon.

      This failure is somewhat reminiscent of Pete Knight's experience on flight 184 of the X-15 program. The X-15 had a complete electrical failure as it climbed steeply through about 104,000 ft. The engine shutdown and all flight control was lost, as both Auxiliary Power Units had failed, and they provided power for the hydraulic pumps. Fortunately the altitude peaked out low enough that there was enough aerodynamic pressure to keep the nose pointed in roughly the right direction.

      He managed to get one APU running again, so he had power for the flight controls. But he still didn't have flight instruments. He knew he needed to pull to a fairly high angle of attack (AOA) to make a successful reentry, but if he pulled to too high an AOA the vehicle would lose directional stability. So he increased the AOA until he saw the nose start to slice off to the side, then decreased the AOA to regain control. He milked the AOA until he could see visually that his dive angle had decreased enough that he knew he had successfully reentered the atmosphere. Then he landed on one of the many dry lakes to the NW of Edwards.

      All the above info is from At the Edge of Space, by Milt Thompson. Great book!

      I certainly don't want to take away from Mike Melville's skill, as he is a very accomplished test pilot. He has had the opportunity to fly many oddball aircraft in his many years as a test pilot with Burt Rutan.

      --
      Kevin Horton
  38. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

    An interesting component of attaining low orbit is that to attain velocity in a low orbit, you have to go through a lot more atmosphere. Unless you go straight up as far as you can, and try to make a sharp turn.

  39. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by CompressedAir · · Score: 1

    Of course you would. And unless you are incredibly rich, you'd be the first one turned away.

    A scaled up SpaceShip one providing hypersonic passenger transport? Have you read what is going on here?

  40. Warning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Link to Unicode and its links to Al-Qaeda is a a goatse/old man gay porn browser bomb.

  41. Hardly ICBM by qaguru · · Score: 1, Informative

    The payload and the range of SpaceShipOne is less then a primitive Scud rocket. It does not have military value.

  42. Airport city to be renamed! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Funny

    to ....... Mos Eisley

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  43. Re:There should have been an earth shattering ka-b by foniksonik · · Score: 1

    So you're spaceship never breaks the sound barrier? What is the technology you speak of and why haven't you entered the contest?

    --
    A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  44. Current rocket plane records (X15) by hey! · · Score: 4, Informative

    Speed: 4520MPH/Mach 6.7 William Knight.

    Altitude: 354300 ft (107.9 km, 67.1 mi) Joseph Walker.

    IIRC, the x prize contender would not necessarily break the height record, since it would only require an altitude of 100km or 330000 ft. However, the trick is the vehicle must (a) be privately funded, (b) be capable of carrying two passengers in addition to the pilot and (3) repeat the feat within two weeks.

    Undoubtedly the X prize contestant will probably go the extra 7 km and break the altitude record for good measure.

    FYI: William Knight recently passed away on May 7.
    http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-050804a. html

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  45. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by nacturation · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most of Paul Allen's money was from inflated Microsoft stock prices. Not actual money from Microsoft. Money from selling stock comes from investors and not Microsoft customers.

    And had Microsoft's practices been more, uh... responsible, their performance in the market wouldn't have been as good, they wouldn't have achieved the same level of dominance they did, and subsequently investors wouldn't have valued Microsoft's stock so high.

    So while technically you're correct, the money Paul Allen made from Microsoft is only one or two steps removed from the actual business practices (eg: Microsoft tax) of the corporation.

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  46. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by MindStalker · · Score: 1

    No if you're going very a geo sync orbit, which has a very high altitute mind you, but you don't have to get up much horizontal speed. Takes a bit to get up there I assume though..

  47. Using Windows? by Handyman · · Score: 0

    Seeing as this thing is financed by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, I wonder if they're using Windows?

    And I wonder, do they have a fallback on mechanical steering in case of crashes, like this ship does?

    1. Re:Using Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you read the flight report it did crash and they flew on manual till it unfeathered and they rebooted the avionics

  48. Interesting trivia by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I presume that this is just coincidence, but it turns out that 41 miles is also the altitude for first-stage separation for Saturn V rockets going to the moon)
    See the section How Apollo Got to The Moon.

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  49. Some intriguing pics of the flight here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    1. Re:Some intriguing pics of the flight here by savuporo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thats their previous, April 8th flight.
      Alans Mojave Weblog has more on that one

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  50. Re:Photos... No, that is from previous flight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, that is from the previous flight. They'll presumably get this flight's pictures up in a day or two. Should be even more spectacular.

  51. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by rebelcool · · Score: 4, Informative

    Unless you go straight up as far as you can, and try to make a sharp turn.

    And have some magical engine capable of thrusting you to 17,000 mph in a short instant (and some kind of dampening field so you wont be killed from the acceleration)

    That's why space vehicles curve backwards as they accelerate through the atmosphere so they have plenty of angular velocity once they reach the proper altitude. Maintaining orbit is all about getting to the proper angular speed tangental to the earth.

    Orbitting the earth is much more difficult than touching space on a ballistic trajectory. You need way more engine power and heat ablative materials and design to handle the re-entry friction.

    --

    -

  52. Re:There should have been an earth shattering ka-b by StarWynd · · Score: 1

    You're right. My spaceship never breaks the sound barrier because it travels in space where there are not enough particles to propogate a sound wave. Therefore, there is no sound barrier to break.

  53. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by Floody · · Score: 1

    No if you're going very a geo sync orbit, which has a very high altitute mind you, but you don't have to get up much horizontal speed. Takes a bit to get up there I assume though..

    In fact, it takes so many bits to get up there that it ends up being significantly more efficient to achieve LOE, and then perform two burns to effectively trade your horizontal component kenetic energy for "height." The vast majority of the earth's atmosphere is packed in around sea-level; doesn't take much altitude to negate drag effects w.r.t. horizontal acceleration.

  54. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by HokieJP · · Score: 1

    As with Gates, most of Paul Allen's money was made in options to buy Microsoft stock. I suspect he still has considerable holdings of MS stock (and possibly options as well), thus his wealth increases as MS stock goes up. So, yeah, his wealth is probably still significantly tied to MS's revenue stream.

  55. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From Amsterdam to New York in one hour, anyone?

    Man, I've been to Amsterdam. And let me tell you, there are a lot of folks there who think they're going a lot farther and faster than that. Just look for the young tourists in the coffeehouses.

  56. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by STrinity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, the way I heard it, altitude is only 1/25 the trick to orbit. The other 24/25 is speed.

    Mostly right. If you just put an object 500 miles above the Earthing, it'll start falling. To achieve orbit, you have to have enough velocity perpendicular to the pull of gravity that you move away from the planet as fast as you're falling.

    --
    Les Miserables Volume 1 now up with my reading of
  57. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by hayesjaj · · Score: 1

    Bummer for him, seeing as MS stock is where it was in late 98'. Time , 5-10-04

    --
    The world is a comedy to those who think and a tragedy to those who feel.
  58. Gov't oversight?? by omahajim · · Score: 3, Insightful
    ...their space plane flew to 212,000 feet altitude, almost 41 miles. NASA awards astronaut status to anyone who flies above 50 miles in altitude.

    On April 1, the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) announced it had issued to Scaled Composites the world's first license for a sub-orbital manned rocket flight.

    XCOR Aerospace, also of Mojave, California, announced in April it had received a Reusable Launch Vehicle mission license from the FAA's Office of Commercial Space Transportation.

    NASA, DOT, FAA...

    Forgive me for being cynical, but how many government agencies need to be involved? Do we really need this much agency and departmental overlap for this stuff?

    Time to burn the newly minted Karma I guess.

    1. Re:Gov't oversight?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Right! This was one of the reasons for the X-Prize: to get people to apply for such kind of permits and to start to get the governments and various air and space organizations to think about the procedures of how to allow non governmental people/organizations/companies access to space.

    2. Re:Gov't oversight?? by bullitB · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Federal Aviation Administration is an agency of the Department of Transportation, so both XCOR and and Scaled Composites dealt with the DOT. I'm guessing Scaled Composites didn't want to spend the time getting a commercial license, since they don't see the need to sell payload space; XCOR may be financing their operation this way. NASA is a scientific agency, so their standardization of "astronaut" as being above 50 miles is just for consistency, I guess.

      As for too many agencies being involved, I guess I'm not so sure here. There is limited airspace, so regulation is needed to keep the skies safe, and rockets full of explosive fuels could certainly pose a hazard to the public. Therefore, requiring testers to check with the authorities first seems like a logical thing to do. Contrary to what many have been grumbling about over the apparent slow-down in space exploration (a government conspiracy to keep private industry out of space, for instant), the relevant agencies seems to be open to allowing people with something to actually test to do their testing. In fact, if XCOR is any indication, the gov't seems to be interested in allowing private industry to take the next step and conduct for-profit space flight.

      For now.

    3. Re:Gov't oversight?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both XCOR and Scaled Composites got the exact same kind of license from a depart of the FAA (itself a sub-department of DOT) called AST, or the Associate Administrator for Space Transportation.

    4. Re:Gov't oversight?? by Zachary+Kessin · · Score: 1

      Also it should be noted that the FAA has to be involved, this this is an airplane (at least part of the time) you will note the N number on its tail. It flies in US controled airspace, so must do so acording the the FAR's (Federal Aviation Regs) Now I would not be suprised if they have some wavers in a few places, and they probably work very closly with ATC before each flight. The air over the USA from 18,000 to 70,000 ft is controled airspace and you need a clearance from ATC to be there.

      I imagine they spend several hours on the phone with the local ATC center before each flight to get this worked out.

      I wonder what the seperation looks like to ATC.

      --
      Erlang Developer and podcaster
  59. Wet Blanket by DumbSwede · · Score: 1
    I hate to be a wet blanket here, but does winning the X-Prize really get us any closer to privatization of space? The real question here is if having achieved the X-Prize, can the winning entry be modified to lead directly to LEO -- I suspect not. Most notably missing is the ability to survive the extreme thermal stress from the much higher velocities on reentry.

    As is mentioned in the parent post here, the X15 rocket plane essentially met the X-prize goals back in the 60's, but it never led to a LEO rocket plane. Granted it provided a lot of data that is used in spacecraft design, but it ended up being essentially a dead end.

    I'm all for design of new methods of getting into space, and this doesn't really take up that many tax dollars, but I doubt it will lead directly to a private space plane.

    I for one would have curtailed our manned effort (though not completely stopped it) before the ISS. The ISS should have awaited a real advance in getting to orbit, in fact it should have been predicated on it. Instead of making empty political statements about going to Mars, we should be investing in a catapult type infrastructure. A space cannon for bulk supplies like water and fuel. And a maglev assist launcher for manned and unmanned craft to get to mach 2 or 3. Even if we get Scram Jets working, they would benefit from not having to get above mach 2 or 3 with conventional rockets or jets.

    This project would me a Mega-Project along the lines of the Panama Canal. A suitable place closer to the equator should be acquired (purchased not leased) and be designed to be brought online in stages, with additional land being reserved for additional (larger) launch slings once the concept proves itself.

    1. Re:Wet Blanket by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, the first computers were horribly expensive and built with government money and kept in government hands.

      Did the first computers in private hands matter?

      Probably if computers stayed in the hands of the government, they'd still be mainly used for things like artillery table calculations. We'd never see the idea of computers being used to play music, for example

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    2. Re:Wet Blanket by HeghmoH · · Score: 2, Informative

      I hate to be a wet blanket here, but does winning the X-Prize really get us any closer to privatization of space? The real question here is if having achieved the X-Prize, can the winning entry be modified to lead directly to LEO -- I suspect not. Most notably missing is the ability to survive the extreme thermal stress from the much higher velocities on reentry.

      It doesn't matter that the current vehicles have no hope of getting to LEO. Suborbital is useful and potentially profitable by itself. Tourism is one possibility. People pay tens of thousands of dollars for an hour in a MiG-29, and you can probably find customers willing to pay a similar amount for a ride into space. Another possibility is microsatellites. Once you're in space, you can launch another rocket from your suborbital craft to put a very small (on the order of a kilogram) satellite into orbit, and there appears to be a market for this sort of thing as well if it can be done cheaply.

      Scaled Composites is planning on revenue from both of these markets, from what I remember. They aren't just running a research program, they're also aiming to turn it into something that makes money. Once you have profitable, private suborbital vehicles, orbit can come in a natural, slow progression.

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  60. yah roughly what i was thinking by real_smiff · · Score: 1
    "Feather oscillations were actively damped by the pilot"

    not just a pair, but some skill too. IANAAE (... aerospace engineer) but AFAIK those tasks are normally handled by computers running very high speed feedback loops. sounds impressive. would the 'plane have been ripped apart if he hadn't damped those oscillations correctly? i've no idea :)

    --

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    1. Re:yah roughly what i was thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know in space (it would depend on the strength of the oscillations and the structure), but inside the atmosphere, handling oscillations the wrong way will tear apart your wings and possibly the tail. The air resistance becomes too though for the fast oscillations and the wings just can't take it. An unpowered plane is not a nice situation, it means your only task is looking for a place to land, but a wingless plane means bail out or you're pushing daisies, and I'm not sure if bailing out is an option in this case.

  61. After the X prize? by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 1

    The next one has to be orbit.

    Though I suspect that any insurance companies will be loathe to bet on it.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  62. Who about adding a 2nd stage to get to LEO. by mikejz84 · · Score: 2

    I can envision using SpaceShipOne as launch platform for a second unmanned stage that would place a small payload into LEO. The amateur's group booster on here yesterday might be able to do the job (it would go quite a bit faster at altitude as opposed to being launched though earth's atmosphere).

  63. Mojave Spaceport.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A most interesting titbit in that article that I don't see anyone else has mentioned is that they've applied for a licence to allow Mojave airport to also become an inland commercial spaceport.

    Like an airport.. but FOR SPACE! Wow! ;)

    This is amazingly cool news and almost could be straight out of the pages of a science fiction book. Perhaps in a few years it will be major center for space traffic and commerce?

    1. Re:Mojave Spaceport.. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      A most interesting titbit in that article that I don't see anyone else has mentioned is that they've applied for a licence to allow Mojave airport to also become an inland commercial spaceport.

      This is amazingly cool news and almost could be straight out of the pages of a science fiction book. Perhaps in a few years it will be major center for space traffic and commerce?

      Almost certainly not. Traffic and commerce require destinations and shippers. The X-Prize does very little to accomdate either (there are upgrade paths from X-prize class ships to orbital ships, but the paths are steep, slippery, and strewn with mines). Tourist flights are cool, but they aren't exploration or exploitation.
    2. Re:Mojave Spaceport.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are, however, revenue flights. And that is a huge leap.

    3. Re:Mojave Spaceport.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Perhaps in a few years it will be major center for space traffic and commerce?
      Major advances tend to take way longer than they have to. Perhaps in a few decades we'll have the bureaucratic groundwork so George Bush IV can grant you a license.
    4. Re:Mojave Spaceport.. by payndz · · Score: 1

      Will you ever find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy?

      --
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    5. Re:Mojave Spaceport.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For future reference: it's spelled tidbit, not titbit.

  64. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by Short+Circuit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here's an idea on re-entry:

    Thrust up and away from your current vector. If you can reduce your angular velocity with minimal encounter of atmosphere during the process, you can reduce your dependence on heat shielding.

  65. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > If this takes off (pun intended), scaled up versions of the Rutan plane may one day bring us hypersonic passenger transport. From Amsterdam to New York in one hour, anyone?

    Ummmm, an hour? Try 2 hours of going through security while they check your underwear for large implements that you could attack someone with (no, really, I AM glad to see you!), an hour to get through immigration (shouldn't it be EMIgration on that end?), an hour taxi-ing around the airport (never flown through Amsterdam, but if it is even 1/2 of Heathrow...), an hour or two taxi-ing around JFK, an hour to get your luggage, another hour to clear customs/immigration (if you are lucky), and then who knows how the heck long for an expensive as heck taxi ride to anywhere.

    If it wasn't for all that water in the way, might be more efficient to get in the Thrust SSC and bypass all the hassle.

  66. Re:There should have been an earth shattering ka-b by Rei · · Score: 1

    The speed of sound is not affected by pressure. As long as you're not in a perfect vaccum, the temperature and composition of the material that you're in - however sparse - will have a sound barrier. In space, you're probably going faster than it. You're arguing that it won't propagate far. That is quite true. :)

    --
    "She was out of her depth in a shallow pool." -- Peggy Noonan on Sarah Palin
  67. Rocket Planes and Politics by Teancum · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The reason why the X-15 didn't get any further was strictly political, not technological.

    By the time the X-15 was doing its stuff, NASA was already gearing up for the Apollo program, and the ballistic missile guys (primarily lead by Von Braun, but it did involve others) were trying to push a competing program. It should be obvious who won that debate.

    The Space Shuttle should have (and in a small part did) been a technological decendant of the X-15 project, but instead most of its design technologies came from the Saturn V program and its predecessors.

    The promise of the X-15 was to have routine reusable aircraft for travel into space. The pilots of the X-15 were finally granted astronaut wings, but politcally even that wasn't really appreciated by the guys at NASA. The prep crew for the X-15 was just a dozen or so people, compared to the hundreds it took even for Alan Shepard to do his sub-orbital flight. It is indeed too bad that this research wasn't followed, but not because it was a technological dead-end. It wasn't followed simply because Congress in their infinite wisdom decided that programs of this nature should be cut. And it was almost impossible to get a follow-on project to go this route.

    Space Ship One really is the heir apparent now of the X-15 flights, and you had better believe that Burt Rutan knows just about all there is to know about the X-15 flights... probabally a world-class expert on the subject.

    Other X-class projects have been done since the X-15 (Notably the X-33) and they have all suffered with political problems coming from folks at NASA thinking they (the X-projects) are mussling into their turf. The X-prize was even named that in honor of these X-class planes and the potential they could have had if they hadn't been abandoned.

    The inspiring thing is that this ship goes higher and higher, pushing the materials and seeking refinements on what they already have.

    Finally, remember the saying of Robert A. Heinlein: "Low-earth orbit is half-way to the rest of the entire solar system."

    That sums up the importance of these flights. If refinements of materials and general ship design gradually lead to something that goes into orbit or even can leave the earth's gravity (like the Apollo missions), the age of manned planetary exploration will truly begin. Eventually, if you keep getting higher and higher, you are going to run out of altitude to the point that it really doesn't matter any more. You will be in orbit regardless.

    1. Re:Rocket Planes and Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      um, most current x projects are managed by NASA; x37, x43a for example...

    2. Re:Rocket Planes and Politics by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry that I gave the impression that the X-projects weren't done with the participation of NASA, although the U.S. Air Force has been a major driving force with them. It usually has been (in the past) an Air Force project or a joint Air Force/NASA project.

      It still is the rocket plane folks vs. the missile folks who slug it out in terms of who does what and where the funding goes. Trace where the money goes (even in FY 2004... despite absoltuely no manned launches what so ever this year) and you will see just who is still winning this battle.

    3. Re:Rocket Planes and Politics by The+Fun+Guy · · Score: 1

      The X-15-style rocket plane approach for getting to sub-orbit does make sense for several reasons. Going from 0 to 400 mph presents a different set of challenges than going from 400 to 2000 mph; ditto for going from ground to 40,000 feet vs. getting from 40,000 to sub-orbit and sub-orbit to orbit. Using a conventional carrier aircraft to get the rocket plane up to a good rocket launch speed/altitude solves a lot of problems in design and system complexity by making the systems separate.

      The problem, though, is that rocket planes are a good way to get to sub-orbit position, but not to orbit, at least not in any designs that are out there currently. From a sub-orbital position, a secondary launch can insert a satellite or other payload into orbit, but the craft itself, with the crew, will stay sub-orbital. Eventually, I could see rocket planes which get achieve and stay in orbit for awhile, but they couldn't ever break orbit.

      The reason for going with the ballistic missle-based spacecraft was that Von Braun and all of the NASA guys realized that getting to orbit was only the first step in the ultimate goal of going to the moon and other the planets. There was tremendous fear that the Russians would land on the moon and claim it as the property of the Soviet Union. (This was before the treaties which disbarred direct annexation of extra-terrestrial property.) Looking back on thirty years of manned space activity restricted exclusively to LEO, it might seem like they missed a good bet by ignoring the potential of a multiple component carrier/rocket plane system in favor of a single ship to go from the ground to orbit. Ultimately, rocket planes will get you up, but never out.

      If rocket planes can ever get up to orbit, there might be a "best of both worlds" synergy to going to the moon and beyond. Use a rocket plane to ferry personnel up to orbit, where they assemble parts which were lifted ballistically. This assumes, of course, that the difficulties in assembling/testing complex interplanetery craft in orbit can be ameliorated.

      --
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    4. Re:Rocket Planes and Politics by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I wish I could mod it up right now.

      I would have to agree that the immediate concerns of the "Space Race" of the 1960's was certainly more pressing, and with a Presidential order from a martyr (whatever you think of JFK, defeating his ghost in the 1960's was incredibly difficult) and a deadline that was coming up in a real hurry, I would have to agree that something they already proofed would work instead of a new technology that really needed to be developed, they probabally made the correct choice at the time.

      The problem I have is that NASA and Congress in 1970, seeing that Armstrong had already made it to the moon, couldn't really figure out where to go next. The ISS and the Space Shuttle (in various forms... some sort of space station was always in the works in conjunction with the Space Shuttle. I just think it was the worst of all possible solutions) was the next logical step, based on thinking at the time. Indeed, it was anticipated that the Space Shuttle would come up to Skylab and help boost it up to a higher orbit, but the Space Shuttle had production delays so bad that it was never able to perform that mission.

      It is too bad that once it was obvious that the Russians weren't going to persue a Moon & Mars mission (there were plans to put a Soviet Cosmonaut on Mars in time for the Centennial of the Russian Revolution... awsome political timing of the Red Planet with the Red Flag and all, but obviously that isn't going to happen), some more measured research wasn't done to check out other flight systems rather than trying to rush into the Space Shuttle.

      Of course all of this is hindsight. I do feel that the current approach of commercial spaceflight is going to be much more successful, and we will yet see orbital spacecraft come from this effort, particularly once money start to seriously pour into the space tourism industry.

  68. dude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gravity has a non linier drop off there actually IS less gravity further away, even if you're not falling, ie orbiting.

    And while I'm at it. You can orbit 2" off the ground if you're going fast enough, just you'll hit something, even air and slow down and crash and die.

    mmm vacume of space

    1. Re:dude by Uma+Thurman · · Score: 1

      1) I said practically the same

      2) Here's the math:

      Newton's law of universal gravitation
      F = G m1 m2 / r2

      m1 = mass of space shuttle = 99E3 kg
      m2 = mass of earth = 5.9742E24 kg
      At Earth's surface:

      F = (6.67E-11 N.m2/kg2) (9.9E4 kg) (5.9742E24 kg) / (6.378000E6 m)^2

      F = 969776.724 N

      At LEO (400 km):

      F = (6.67E-11 N.m2/kg2) (9.9E4 kg) (5.9742E24 kg) / (6.778000E6 m)^2

      F = 858692.475 N

      Gravity at 400 km orbit is about 88% as strong as at the Earth's surface.
      Still doesn't answer my question: What is gravity drag? Never heard of that before.

      --
      This is America, damnit. Speak Spanish!
  69. Hey, did you touch my bum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, did you touch my bum?

  70. Re:geez-- employee of NASA?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    typo perhaps?

    350km is 217 miles. why would you need to work for nasa to figure that out?

  71. See Scaled's launch journal... by thentil · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Scale'd launch journal puts it at 211,400 feet at apogee. I would imagine this is from the craft, not from "witnesses". Why the original story didn't link to this and use this number, is beyond me...

    1. Re:See Scaled's launch journal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the number wasn't available yet. Scaled had only a partial update on its site, as noted in the article.

  72. Re:There should have been an earth shattering ka-b by Mr_Matt · · Score: 1
    The speed of sound is not affected by pressure.

    Technically, that's wrong. The speed of sound, as you've correctly mentioned, is related to gas constants and the temperature of the gas. However, a simple substitution using the equation of state demonstrates the relationship between the speed of sound and the ambient pressure. Regardless, the speed of sound is affected by pressure.

    Now, at extremely high altitude (p ~ a few mb) the speed of sound is remarkably slow. Perhaps more interestingly, the idea of what exactly constitutes a gas at this altitude makes the notion of a speed of sound in space somewhat muddled, which is probably what grandparent poster was thinking about.

    --


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  73. Ansari??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't you mean the Ansari X Prize?

  74. And if it was? by Duhavid · · Score: 1

    Would that make it all OK?

    So, now, can I go rob a 7/11, donate the proceeds ( see how I hide robbery in nice business terms... ) to charity? No police coming for me?

    --
    emt 377 emt 4
  75. Re:geez-- employee of NASA?? by elhaf · · Score: 2, Informative

    google it. You "must work for NASA" (make that Lockheed Martin) if you get your units wrong.

    --
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  76. ah hem....Radar? by clbyjack81 · · Score: 2, Informative
    I think they invented this technology a couple of years ago. It was refered to as 'radar'.

    --
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  77. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From Amsterdam to New York in one hour, anyone?

    Reminds me of that commercial where it shows two guys rocketing across Interstate 15 from Los Angeles to Vegas all ready to party and then it cuts to them 30 minutes later, driving back from Vegas with their hair standing straight up, sun and smoke burned and that permanent look of surprise stuck on their faces.

  78. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by ThosLives · · Score: 3, Informative
    I might presume that the kinetic energy necessary for LEO isn't really 24X the potential energy of that altitude
    You would be presuming correctly. For a circular orbit:

    ma = mv^2/r
    F = GMm/r^2 so v^2 = GMm/r

    So kinetic energy K = m/2 GM/r

    Potential energy, though, is defined as the integral from an infinite distance to the current radius:
    U = GMm/r

    Oddly enough, this means that the kinetic energy is always half the potential energy for a circular orbit (2K = U)

    Also, note that if your kinetic energy equals or exceeds your potential, then you're at or above escape velocity and aren't in orbit any more (Vescape^2 = GM/r).

    --
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  79. Re:There should have been an earth shattering ka-b by Rei · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what you meant by "a simple substitution using the equation of state demonstrates the relationship between the speed of sound and the ambient pressure". I should have been more clear and specified "in an ideal gas" (which air is close to, although not exactly), but you know what I meant. The formula for the speed of sound is sqrt(kRT), where k is the adiabatic index, R is the gas constant, and T is the temperature in kelvins. The adiabatic constant for an ideal gas is fixed, R is fixed, and we've declared T to be constant, so the speed of sound is constant.

    In higher altitudes in the troposphere, the speed of sound slows down because of lower temperature. Outside of it, temperature really varies depending where in space you are, as you have different compositions of gasses, and, as you mentioned, it's hard to say just what is a gas, so it really varies.

    --
    "She was out of her depth in a shallow pool." -- Peggy Noonan on Sarah Palin
  80. Yes, because by Duhavid · · Score: 1

    Achieving this goal makes it more apparent that the barriers are not as high as ones thinking makes them.

    Before this prize is won, conventional wisdom was ( is ) that it takes Governmental levels of investment of money, time, etc, etc.. After, the psychological barriers will be lower. It will be "thinkable", where before it was not.

    *That* is where this prize is important. That and getting the ball rolling, however weakly.

    --
    emt 377 emt 4
  81. Re:There should have been an earth shattering ka-b by Razor+Blades+are+Not · · Score: 1

    At least that's better than when it goes "Hiss"

  82. no heat shielding by rebelcool · · Score: 1

    SS1 doesnt have heat shields for reentry. It's basic aerodynamic design doesn't really take re-entry into account.

    --

    -

    1. Re:no heat shielding by mikejz84 · · Score: 1

      True, but the point is not to put SS1 into orbit, it is to get in up to altitude (100km+) and release a small expendable rocket that would put a payload into orbit.

    2. Re:no heat shielding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NOT TRUE! SS1 does have heat shields!
      Check out the photos page of the scaled.com web page. There's a recent update which clearly shows heat shielding installed on the leading edges!

    3. Re:no heat shielding by rebelcool · · Score: 1

      ah, yeah makes sense there would be a little at the leading edges, they are going at a substantial mach number.

      Nonetheless, its not heat shielding on the order required by a orbiting craft like the space shuttle which re-enters earth's atmosphere at 17,000 mph.

      --

      -

  83. Orbit nothing to do with altitude by waimate · · Score: 2, Informative
    Achieving orbit has almost *nothing* to do with altitude. It's all to do with horizontal speed. The only good thing about altitude is that it gets you out of the atmosphere which would otherwise keep slowing you down due to friction.

    To put this in perspective, the amount of energy you need to expend to get sufficient horizontal velocity (about 7 miles per second), if expended going straight up (like the X-Prize people are doing), would take you 700 miles high.

    In simple terms, going 50 miles straight up is dealing with about one fourteenth the amount of energy you'd need to deal with to attain orbit.

  84. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by uberdave · · Score: 1

    In order to do that, you have to carry almost as much propellant with you to deorbit as it took to get you into orbit in the first place. Every extra kilo of propellant you carry up is one less kilo of payload you don't.

  85. Re:Privitization of space is dangerous... by rebelcool · · Score: 2, Informative

    Do you know how much energy would be required to move an *asteroid* from its orbit?

    Even a very small asteroid would require hundreds, perhaps thousands, of megatons of nuclear detonations to nudge it a degree or two.

    --

    -

  86. That's actually incorrect... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The second line should read, "200,000 feet in US". Get it right.

  87. Re:Privitization of space is dangerous... by astro-g · · Score: 2, Informative

    sure, and how are you going to aim it?

    how many nukes is this (small) spaceship
    carrying not even a tiny fraction of the distance to this hypothetical asteroid of yours? in a pathetic attempt to deflect the asteroid

    if SS1, or its like could reach an asteroid, its allready within seconds of hitting the earth, and if it could deflect it, its too small to worry about anyway.

  88. Acutally incorrect... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually some of the first experiments in computer music were done by a public-university funded computer here at the Univeristy of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign - the ILLIAC-I, and occured around 1957-8 or so.

  89. Interesting Scaled facts! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Check it out!
    White Knight, the carrier is N318SL.
    SS1, the spacecraft is N328KF.

    Note below that SS1 is a model 316 and WK is model 318.

    Makes you wonder what they have lurking as model 317!!!

    [begin FAA registry querry results]

    N318SL is Assigned
    Aircraft Description
    Serial Number 001 Type Registration Corporation
    Manufacturer Name SCALED COMPOSITES LLC Certificate Issue Date 07/05/2002
    Model 318 Status Valid
    Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Multi-Engine Type Engine Turbo-Jet
    Pending Number Change None Dealer No
    Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 50663044
    MFR Year 2002 Fractional Owner NO
    Registered Owner
    Name SCALED COMPOSITES LLC
    Street 1624 FLIGHT LINE
    City MOJAVE State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 93501-1663
    County KERN
    Country UNITED STATES
    Airworthiness
    Engine Manufacturer AMA/EXPR Classification Experimental
    Engine Model UNKNOWN ENG Category Research and Development
    A/W Date 07/01/2003
    Other Owner Names
    None
    Temporary Certificate
    Certificate Number T024366 Issue Date 07/05/2002 Expiration Date 08/04/2002
    Fuel Modifications
    None

    N328KF is Assigned
    Assigned/Registered Aircraft
    Aircraft Description
    Serial Number 001 Type Registration Corporation
    Manufacturer Name SCALED COMPOSITES LLC Certificate Issue Date 03/20/2003
    Model 316 Status Valid
    Type Aircraft Glider Type Engine None
    Pending Number Change None Dealer No
    Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 50706357
    MFR Year 2003 Fractional Owner NO
    Registered Owner
    Name SCALED COMPOSITES LLC
    Street 1624 FLIGHTLINE HANGAR 78
    City MOJAVE State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 93501
    County KERN
    Country UNITED STATES
    Airworthiness
    Engine Manufacturer NONE Classification Experimental
    Engine Model NONE Category Research and Development
    A/W Date 12/09/2003
    Other Owner Names
    None
    Temporary Certificate
    None
    Fuel Modifications
    None

    1. Re:Interesting Scaled facts! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod this UP!

    2. Re:Interesting Scaled facts! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Check it out!
      White Knight, the carrier is N318SL.
      SS1, the spacecraft is N328KF.

      Note below that SS1 is a model 316 and WK is model 318.

      Makes you wonder what they have lurking as model 317!!!


      What's the model number for Proteus?
      IIRC, the White Knight is based on Proteus.

    3. Re:Interesting Scaled facts! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Model numbers are given to whatever projects Burt decides to think about. There was never a model 317 built. But think a little more about the N-number for SpaceShipOne. Like if the KF stood for something? And the 'F' is for feet.

      -Scaled Employee

  90. Re:Privitization of space is dangerous... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since redirecting asteroids away from Earth is easy as redirecting it towards (easier, really, since you don't have to aim) if we reach the point where "anyone" could do so, the governments / major corporations of the world could easily prevent such actions. It's not like you can *sneak* a major asteroid around.

  91. nope, no movie clips there. by bani · · Score: 1

    it's only still images taken from video footage.

    there's no video footage to download from the page though.

  92. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
    Here's an idea on re-entry: Thrust up and away from your current vector. If you can reduce your angular velocity with minimal encounter of atmosphere during the process, you can reduce your dependence on heat shielding.

    At the expense of having to carry much more fuel. Recall the lower stage of the Lunar Lander, larger and probably heavier than the command module. And that's for rocket braking in 1/6th g.

  93. Well I'm disappointed by malf-uk · · Score: 1

    Bah, thought this was a going to be a story about the Sontarans' deadly enemies testing their latest weapon on Earth which cripples their foes by giving everyone a sore big toe.

    Rutans and Sontarans

    --
    R Tape loading error, 0:1
  94. Re:Paid by the microsoft tax by HokieJP · · Score: 1

    I assume you're referring to this sentence:

    Its stock price has stalled at 1998 levels.

    That statment is technically true, in that MSFT stock was trading in the mid 20s in 1998, and is trading in the mid 20s right now. Then again, if you consider there have been 3 2:1 splits since Febuary of 1998, the stock is actually worth 8 times as much. That's an increase of over 100% per year... hardly a bummer.

  95. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by PantsWearer · · Score: 1
    An easy way to picture this is a weight on the end of a string. Grab the opposite end of the string and swing the weight around. If you swing too slowly, the weight will fall out of orbit. You can also see how the speeds need to differ depending on the length of the string, but this isn't exactly accurate since a string's tension doesn't decrease with the inverse square rule.

    I always like to describe orbit as falling at the Earth, but missing.

    --
    Be glad life is unfair, otherwise we'd deserve all this.
  96. Re:There should have been an earth shattering ka-b by ckaminski · · Score: 1

    I'm fairly certain that it's not pressure, but the density of the transmission medium. Please remember that sound will also propagate through solids and liquids.

  97. Re:Using Windows? Probably a Mac by McFly777 · · Score: 1

    Burt is a diehard Mac fan, or at least he was the last time I spoke with him.

    Admittedly, that was about 8 years ago so he could have changed in between. His "Boomerang" asymmetric twin had a bit of computer monitoring equipment. IIRC most of it was specialty computers (think industrial embedded type boards)but it was headed by a Mac.

    {begin small product plug}
    If anyone is interested, at Burt Rutan's request, a business partner and I produced a set of CD-ROMs with the collection of plans and errata-newsletters for Burt's general avation aircraft. (all 5 designs; VariEZE, LongEZ, etc.)
    At the time he wanted a way for people to get back-copies/replacements of the information, without having to bug him for it.

    more information is available at www.terf.com

    {end plug}

    --

    McFly777
    - - -
    "What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
  98. computer crashed by confused+one · · Score: 1

    They noted that the glass cockpit computer crashed during the boost phase. Someone should have told them not to use Windows CE...

    1. Re:computer crashed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It didn't crash - the signal cable had a bad/lose connector.

  99. Re:that's horrible by F34nor · · Score: 1

    This thing burns solid rubber and hydrogen peroxide, I imangine it smells FAR worse then feet.

  100. Was WhightKnight and SpacShipOne a Wunderwaffen? by F34nor · · Score: 1

    Dieter Wulf's article in The Atlantic Magazine shows a picture (not on the web) of a Wunderwaffen or Nazi "miracle weapon" that looks exactly like the White Knight Space Ship One combo. Not to knock Burt Rutan or anything, but it goes to show the German war machine did some serious thought. What's interesting is that they current thoery on the plane was to fly it into US buildings.

  101. Re:There should have been an earth shattering ka-b by Mr_Matt · · Score: 1

    Sure, sure, to reply to this (and the poster below) you can substitute using the ideal gas law for T in the relationship for the speed of sound, e.g.

    p = rho * R_star * T (for a mass-weighted gas)

    In other words, we're all three of us right - c_sound depends on gas constants (including the adiabatic index) and the equation of state, be it temperature, pressure, or density. In the extreme upper atmosphere (well above the troposphere) the easiest thing to measure is probably the density, followed by the pressure, and then the temperature.

    Anyways, this is getting OT, but you see my point I hope. :)

    --


    But what does my opinion matter, I just vote here. It's not like I have any money or anything.
  102. Re:altitude is only half the trick to orbit, the o by georgewilliamherbert · · Score: 1
    Here's an idea on re-entry: Thrust up and away from your current vector. If you can reduce your angular velocity with minimal encounter of atmosphere during the process, you can reduce your dependence on heat shielding.

    The numbers don't work out.

    An ablative heatshield needs 6-9 percent of the re-entering mass to protect you from LEO entry speeds, depending on material and trajectory and the capsule's lift and entry corridor details (and a few lower order effects which don't matter for this discussion).

    9 percent of the vehicle's mass in liquid hydrogen/oxygen rocket fuel will change your velocity only about 420 meters/sec out of 7,200 m/s orbital velocity. That saves about 12% of the thermal energy load, but that's only about 1% of the heatshield mass saved...

    Use the atmosphere to brake. The atmosphere is your friend.

  103. Re:that's horrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rubber and Nitrous Oxide: It doesn't smell but even your bad jokes are funny.

    Plus, there aren't many noses at 45,000 to smell anything.