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Scanlation: Distributed Manga
IronicGrin writes "Just alerting you to a story I wrote for SFGate.com about the emergence of manga as a cultural and commercial force in the U.S.; in addition to discussing the fact that manga has begun to appear on national bestseller lists (volumes of Naruto and Rurouni Kenshin both cracked the USA Today Top 150), I also discuss scanlation communities--that is to say, distributed groups that use the Internet to translate and distribute as-yet unlicensed manga works--comparing this form of culture hacking to other open source development efforts. Do you think the comparison is apt? How many of you guys read manga (as opposed to watch anime), anyway?"
The guy from Saturday Night Live?
Life in Orange County
While I belive in purchasing the works when they come out in the US. I do download and read manga. For the most part is purdy good, translations are purdy good and the work is done reasonably well.
I enjoy reading the manga after watching the anime myself, that way you get the little nuances and side stories in the manga that arent in the anime.
snowulf.com
Definately manga has begun hitting hard.
I actually saw a girl showing off some manga books she'd just bought to her friends... who were girls!
this just goes to show information is unstoppable, whether it's open source, comic books, or anything else. people want to share.
While there is a certain 'labor of love' comparison between scanlation and open source programming, and both involve alot of volunteer folks working on their own, that's about where the similarity ends. Open source is original work, and often it's an original idea. Scanlation is scanning in someone else's product and translating it. I think at one point translations were considered original work, but even if that were still the case, all of the artwork is still the publisher's property. Open Office is open source programming. Microsoft Office with a crack and a hacked translation into a new language is, while a labor of love, still outright theft. Anyways, where did I save that latest Trigun manga...
It is true that in both cases people contribute their talent and labor to a collaborative project. But unlike open source software, you are building off of and distributing someone else's work without their permission. That is illegal, and is exactly what SCO is claiming happens in OSS but it doesn't.
Not being able to read unlicensed work from other countries is a drag, and I don't particularly blame you for breaking the law when no-one is getting hurt. But it concidering how much FUD and confusion is already being spread by opponents of OSS, it really doesn't help for well-meaning people to muddy the waters with analogies like this.
I first read this as "Disturbing Manga", which makes sense, given that I've seen LOTS of disturbing manga!
Cmon man, this is slashdot! There's no place here for your opinions!
Hades, PoD: Official Advocate
Why people should stop translating manga or anime once something becomes licensed. It makes no sense to me that a foreign book or tv show can suddenly become un-sharable when a company buys the rights to it in the US. These are japanese books/shows, not US version. They should be free to trade. And yes i know about the WTO Tripps treaty, which makes no sense (are they even elected officials who make treaties?).
This will likely go against the slashdot majority dogma, but scanlations have all the copyright issues inherent in fansubs. After all, they do disribute copyrighted work. There are on the other hand comminities that translate manga and release translations of it; i.e. a traslated script without actual manga images.
You can buy japanese manga and with translations you can read it. Yes it's a little less convenient, but at least authors get paid for their work.
So tell me, what is the diffence between anime, manga, hentai, and any other strange japanese cartoony things I'm missing?
Nobody, obviously enough. :)
...I'm not particularly excited about these "Scanlation Communities". It's just yet another example of the Internet doing what it does best: forming small, highly optimized communities devoted to one thing, like the workers at DP proofreading public domain texts or the people at archive.org committed to putting new materials into circulation. Just because it's anime/manga/Japanmiation doesn't make it particularly special, but I'm sure it's just useful as anything else. This is what the 'Net is for.
BTW, if you happen across a little gem called Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou, then go download it. It comes highly recommended ^_^.
________
Entranced by anime since late summer 2001 and loving it ^_^
I actually prefer scanlations to officially translated manga most of the time since North American publishers tend to censor their releases. Usually it's minor stuff like nudity, but still I prefer to read the original work in it's entirety.
I've thought about this too. Also some of the subbing groups are not based in the US, yet they still stop when the anime/manga gets licensed.
This pisses me off a lot, since as i am not in the us, i dont get to see the series aired/in shops, and if i want the dvds i get the imports costs !!
It's important to point out that many times, even after the manga is liscense the scanning activity continues. Why? Because fans don't want to wait 2 years for the slow US companies to catch up- and it's a valid concern. These scanners are now doing an illegal act, but they do it anyway. As for me, I don't read the Naruto manga because I watch the anime and don't want to be exposed to spoilers- but the Naruto manga is still being scanned and translated week by week illegally. Is Manga becoming a commercial force in the USA? Yes, but it's going to have to get it's act together timewise for it to get any further. I don't need to pay 25 dollars for 120 pages of shit I've already read online.
www.GrenadeHop.com
Interesting article. ^_^ I don't quite buy the open source "as Linux is to Windows" comparison, though... it's really apples and oranges IMHO.
I've been interested in anime for many years- I helped found an anime club and am currently serving a local anime club (where I met my wife). We both enjoy both anime and manga. She lived in Japan for a year through the JET program (and I got to visit her ^_^), and she has developed a fair-sized (Japanese) manga collection. While I can't read Japanese, she often translates for me. I am just floored by the proliferation of available titles in English, though. The article was even more eye-opening in that respect.
I haven't looked into the manga side (scanlations) so much, but I have been quite interested in the fansub legalities and ethics. I tend to view them in a similar light. Technically, they are illegal- but take a look at the flourishing doujinshi market and other fan-led efforts in Japan. They are very different types of copyright violation, but are technically just as illegal (debatable, but generally thought of as illegal through copyright and trade law)... That's an aside, though, I guess... ^^;
At any rate, I view open source as very different for a number of reasons- open source is a legal response to a proprietary mindset via the GPL. The publishing industry is a different beast than the software industry. Scanlations, and fansubs, serve the purpose of the sharing of the culture/art, but are likely illegal, while open source promotes the legal sharing of software under a certain set of circumstances. Open source is "bought into" by all of the participants in the development from the creator on (barring silly SCO arguments)- that's one of the big differences right there. The author and/or copyright holder of the scanlation is not usually a participant in "the community." Are scanlations bad? I don't always think so, provided they hold to some general ethics, but I don't think they have the legitimacy that open source does. I don't know if the comparison is fair to open source. ^^
The author should think in the posibility of publish their works under free licenses like creative commons. The use of this kind licenses on these publications could make easier to know the new works of unknown authors, so this would make a more dinamic market. This is a new place to bring the filosophy of the free software. So why not?
They should do a distributed "Hentai", I think the biggest thing society needs right now is sexual expression not subtlely, that is no more repression of our true selves.
1. The manga industry is being outsourced. I don't know much about this, but it might be a good idea to keep an eye on this issue.
2. Manga on the internet is often fan-translated. This is usually a good thing, as often the fans have more respect for a direct translation, rather than throwing out any cultural jokes that wouldn't apply overseas.
3. Try to get manga for a good price. Manga is sold at ridiculously inflated prices in the U.S., so if you can, try to get a better deal.
That being said, it's also a lot of fun to actually buy the manga. There's something quite charismatic about sitting on the bus with a thick little comic book.
Still, if one walks into a Borders or Barnes and Noble, they'll find a large section devoted to manga, so the good thing is it's becoming more available.
Oh, and I would like to second the honorable mention of Naruto. I'm currently reading it, and it's a really great series, both the anime and the manga. I highly suggest it.
Fandom: The Barbarians at the Gate
- or -
Yes, I still like Ranma 1/2
(blantantly stolen without permission from here)
It is an unfortunate fact about fandom, whether it be gaming fandom, anime fandom, or Linux fandom that it goes through stages:
1. Stage One: A small group of people discover something that they like and think is fun and interesting. They form clubs based on it, talk to each other about references from it and generally enjoy themselves. Often, they will be persecuted by people who don't get it, "You're into that?!? How can you be into that?!?!" they'll sneer as they pass you in the street, at school or at work. This is also the evangelism phase, you try to convince people to become involved in the thing you are into. "The more the merrier" is what you think at this stage. In some ways, this is the best stage of fandom. There is a lot you have to do by yourself and normally a dearth of commercial support, but it is exciting.
2. Stage Two: Some charismatic people become interested in what you like, unfortunately, leading the people who were sneering at you to think, "Oh! He's into that? Oh, maybe I misjudged it then..." (You'll see why this is unfortunate soon enough.) More support becomes available, so you don't have to do everything yourself. Instead of third generation fan-subs, for instance, commercial tapes become available. Maybe not the ones you want, but still, maybe good in their own way.
3. Stage Three: This is the transitional phase, your hobby becomes well known enough that the mainstream media picks up on it, usually portraying it as a weird and evil sub-culture. Of course, this causes it to appeal to bored mainstreamers who want to appear cool by taking on the establishment (until they grow up to become corporate lawyers and/or investment bankers, natch.) These are the people who start showing up at your AD&D club meetings and when you suggest a game of Call of Cthuhlu for a change, mock you. They don't mock you because they know anything about CoC , but because "the name sounds goofy, man." You start feeling resentful as they try feeding your sixth level magic user to a gelatinous cube, and in my case you stop attending group meetings.
4. Stage Four: Congressmen start talking about the evils of the whatever-it-is that you like, of course making it more cool among mainstreamers . Although the thing you like is more readily available now from a variety of commercial sources, it has been rendered palatable for the mainstreamers . All the rough edges are sanded off, and you get accosted by people who don't know that you used to be really into the thing who try to tell you how cool their bland, pallid version of the thing you used to love is. The barbarians are at the gate! People are overunning your hobby with the same predjudices they had back when it wasn't cool. They accost you at conventions and say, "You are into that!?! How could you be into that?!? This new is so much cooler than that. I wouldn't be caught dead being into that." Note: As always, you are not trying to force your tastes on anyone. In fact, because the quality of people you are meeting has declined so much, you try to identify the bad ones and just "smile and nod" as they pass you by. You are just trying to "live and let live," but the mainstreamers only want to appear rebellious, even though by their very nature they are conformists. Because of this, they will seek you out and try to force conformity on you, basically forcing you to hide your interests within a hobby from them the same way you used to hide your interest in the hobby from them.
5. Stage Five: Everyone is into your hobby now... but it's become so palatable and mainstream that it isn't recognizable as the thing you used to love. You've since moved on to other things. Soon after this, it becomes uncool and people start dropping it. You still like the old things that got you into it in the first place, but you no longer mention it to
Did anyone notice that it's stupid with a capital 'S'? This is wise advice.
Is it really too much to ask to explain the more obscure terms used in Slashdot posts?
I have no idea what Manga is and would not have cared to click the article if I knew what it was about before hand.
Thanks,
André
Scanlations actually act for Mangas, just like Fansubs for Animes, as a launchpad for Licensation.
I severely doubt that Naruto or Hikaru No Go would have become licensed, if they didn't already have such an big fanbase in English speaking countries - they might have disappeared into obscurity outside Japan instead.
The IP theft issue is not a real problem here - the artists like when their manga gets scanlated (after all, it shows how much it is liked). The publishing companies turn a blind eye to the scanlation groups, as they have nothing to loose (non-japanese Speakers wouldn't buy the manga anyways) but alot to gain (Getting alot of US fans = good chance that the manga gets licensed for the US) and most of the high-quality groups honor the request to stop scanlating licensed manga.
Finally, here are a few intresting links to Scanlation Pages for those that got interested in Manga:
Toriyama's World produced high-quality Hikaru No Go and Naruto Scanlations until they got licensed, now offers e.g. Hunter X Hunter
Snoopy Cool offers alot of intresting Scanlations, like Yakitate!! Japan - a manga about beaking bread(?!) and many others.
Enjoy
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I find it all about as entertaining as the New York Times, ABC News or Michael Moore's garbage. Though I would place it worlds above my examples in the fiction genre.
The U.S. Justice Department should use every means at its disposal, including exporting obscenity laws from less liberal jurisdictions as well as the new criminal copyright infringement laws, to see to it that as few youth are affected by this scourge as possible. Thank you.
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
If you have actually looked into the genre, saying that you "hate this stuff" and are convinced it all "looks crappy," isn't sufficient. What about it is crappy? What is it that you hate that is common to ALL manga?
Saying "manga looks crappy" is like saying "comic books are for kids." There's no way that they are all alike or share a single esthetic; there's far more variety in Japanese mass-market comics -- in artstyle, storytelling techniques, intended audience -- than in the US product.
Unless you can lend some further depth to your remarks, you are simply a troll.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Saying "manga looks crappy" is like saying "comic books are for kids." There's no way that they are all alike or share a single esthetic; there's far more variety in Japanese mass-market comics -- in artstyle, storytelling techniques, intended audience -- than in the US product.
Uh.. manga looks crappy
and comic books are for kids
how gay
Do you even have any familiarity with the field? Would you know the difference between Masamune Shirow and Rumiko Takahashi? Have you ever even seen an issue of "20th Century Boys?" If you have actually looked into the genre, saying that you "hate this stuff" and are convinced it all "looks crappy," isn't sufficient. What about it is crappy? What is it that you hate that is common to ALL manga? Saying "manga looks crappy" is like saying "comic books are for kids." There's no way that they are all alike or share a single esthetic; there's far more variety in Japanese mass-market comics -- in artstyle, storytelling techniques, intended audience -- than in the US product. Unless you can lend some further depth to your remarks, you are simply a troll.
That was my point. I don't know why I think it looks crappy, I just do. It's like asking why a fart smells bad...it just does. (to me) I wasn't saying it *is* crappy, only that I think it looks crappy.
You'll have that sometimes...
Soooo...I don't suppose you watch foriegn films, either? Translated novels? That seems pretty stupid to me. I could understand not liking comic books (which are no less "useless" than any other form of entertainment, by the way, at least some of which I'm sure you enjoy), or even disliking the manga style, but to avoid spending money on it just because it's from another country?
For example, here's one paragraph:
Let's take another look at that in "translation":
BRAVO how very /.ish of you.
"you don't like something which I do thus you must be a troll..." LMAO
must be a Democrat
"While scanlators operate somewhat outside legal boundaries -- the works they're republishing are copyrighted and proprietary, and there isn't a penny of licensing money exchanging hands -- their existence is tolerated by the commercial publishing houses because, frankly, scanlators play the invaluable role of identifying new titles that are hotly in demand."
Sounds like a justification, for every illegal form of trading to have come forward to this point. Where I will not fault, the folks for scanning and redistributing copyrighted material myself (..owing to glass house syndrome.) Theft is theft. Do BSA members, and all other software companies, learn which of thier titles are most popular, or are they robbed of revenues? Recording Industry? Visual Media Companies?
My cat's picked up a Hammer. HEY! Put down that Hammer. Put Down that Hamm...THUNK!
So you're comparing the OSS movement to IP theft, and finding them similar?
Do you work for the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution?
including exporting obscenity laws from less liberal jurisdictions
Don't do it!
Last time the US exported obscenity laws to Japan we got Tentacle Porn
I really don't want to find out what we would get this time!
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I'm all for culture jacking and sharing of entertainment. It bothers me that people like the RIAA and Jack Valenti of the MPAA are so fierce about preventing the spread of entertainment to other countries. The MPAA in particular has been rallying foreign governments to crack down on piracy of movies that aren't even being distributed commercially in those countries.
If you're not selling your items in a certain area, does it really matter if there are pirated copies popping up in that area? It's not like it's cutting into your business if you're not even selling there.
Same goes for software, I say. If a company stubbornly refuses to release compatible software in other languages and devices, I'm all for people in those countries jacking up the software and making it work for them.
The only thing that's touchy with anime and other such things is that it COULD be slated for licensing and redistrubutors would be cutting into their revenue. In that case, I say nay.
But if a company says no to distribution in an area where there's demand, I'm all for consumers taking things into their own hands. Anime, software, and other forms of media are not expensive to reproduce. Technically, the "art" itself is non-existent - it's all just 1's and 0's on a computer disk or images pressed onto tape. Redistribution is harmless if it doesn't affect profits whatsoever while simultaneously spreading the art.
Companies who refuse to redistribute on their own while also refusing to allow others to redistribute in an area that does not cut into their profits are just being stingy. It's the equivalent of a kid refusing to let his little brother play with an action figure "just because," even though he's not playing with it either - it's just great entertainment gathering dust and not being sufficiently appreciated.
Now I'll probably be kidnapped by some secret military group controlled by big media, but I had to say my piece. Free the anime! Vive la revolucion!
Read Manga? I just look at the pictures!
Microsoft Office with a crack and a hacked translation into a new language is, while a labor of love, still outright theft.
Been listening to the boys from the RIAA again?
COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS NOT THEFT!!!!
It's copyright infringement. That's different from theft. It has a different name too, so as not to confuse people.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I love that there is "A Manga Introduction to the Japanese Economy." Somewhat off topic, but from what I have heard, the Monty Python crew made short instructional films aimed at improving morale and efficiency in the office.
I read MegaTokyo, but some people might not think that counts...
Does he have to know the difference between Masamune Shirow and Rumiko Takahashi to hold the opinion that he doesn't like Manga? Stop being so indignant about something so silly. So you don't agree with his opinion, but he still has a right to it. After all, it's your choice to invest your time in a monumental waste of time, and his choice not to.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
uh isn't it? post *anything*, just anything..
like "I just don't like 'em" and get modded intresting.
to be a bit on topic.. legally they're walking on a very thin line.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
This sort of breathless fanboy tripe, that deliberately tries to blur the lines between legitimate activites (Free Software/Open Source) and illegitimate activities (scanlation) doesn't deserve space on /.'s front page. *snip*
Ok, I see two possibilities there:
1) You really don't like manga - if so, noone is forcing you to read it. Still no need to trash and flame.
2) You are trying to troll/flaimbait here.
My guess is #2
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PS...Comic books *are* for kids.
You'll have that sometimes...
I think he was trying to say that not all manga looks the same, so there is no "it" to look crappy.
When I think about Precious Squirt, I need. We love life are best with Precious Squirt!
I read and archive manga by the Borders-load, and it's driven me into financial despair more than once - but for "Angel Sanctuary," it's more than worth it.
A full list of my collection is here.
http://www.tuxedojack.com/collection.htm
Striking fear in the authors of godawful fanfiction, I am here, appearing in darkness, Tuxedo Jack!
The thing I see in every other anime for years that Japanese loves and Americans like me hate....
1.) When characters cry, a giant stream of tears fly out.
2.) Ridiculous facial expression change when they blush or say wow or say yay.
3.) Animes that are part comics, action, drama, tragedy is too common.
4.) Episodes are a waste of time. Half the animes can be compressed into outstanding 2 hr movies, look at Battle Angel & Ninja Scroll.
5.) Random peace signs MUST go. Anime characters absolutely abuse it.
6.) Still frames. Artist gets lazy and you hear conversations, but you are staring at still frames.
7.) Overuse of robotics and cards.
8.) Ridiculous physics.
In the Parent post.
Everything goes too far, eventually.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
The comparison between this practice and open source is definitely not apt. It's exactly the kind of obfuscation that Ken Brown of the ADTI wants: this Manga distribution genuinely is samizdat.
If you have actually looked into the genre, saying that you "hate this stuff" and are convinced it all "looks crappy," isn't sufficient.
Actually, in that scenario, yes, it is.
Unless you can lend some further depth to your remarks, you are simply a troll.
We're discussing taste. Perhaps it's a troll, but that's just because he posted at all, not due to the depth of his remark. It's perfectly ok, for instance, to simply say "I hate the taste of brussels sprouts," and I suspect if you too hated the taste of brussels sprouts you'd be inclined to post "Me Too!" instead of demanding more "depth" to the argument.
You are responding as an offended fan, not with a logical point. Logic does not apply to taste. If parent is a troll YHBH.
Saying "manga looks crappy" is like saying "comic books are for kids."
Here, however, we may apply at least a modicum of logic, as you are juxtaposing the issue of personal taste with one of general classification and thus introducing a strawman into the argument.
A better way of phrasing it, one that might withstand scrutiny, might be "comic books are juvenile," phrasing it as an issue of taste.
And for the most part I happen to think they are. That doesn't mean I won't read one now and again. I read all sorts of juvenile literature, if it's any good.
And if it doesn't look crappy.
KFG
My first reaction to this story was "apt-get manga"? Needless to say, this has been a long day...
Yeah, it's illegal, but people who translate and scan the manga help get it here domestically. These sites usually promote awareness of things that people might want published in the US, so that they write letters (it happens! not a joke!) to request the companies to publish the manga in the US. They publish it, people buy it, and the translations are taken offline.
The same is true with fansubs in Anime. Once the domestic release hits the states, nobody distributes the fansubs anymore.
The practice is illegal, but Japanese companies typically turn a blind eye until a domestic release is available. It's an honor thing. The Japanese know all about that.
Ah, but remember Anime Law #1:
#1 - Law of Metaphysical Irregularity
The normal laws of physics do not apply.
(For reference check the Anime Laws)
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If you have no basis on which to rest your statements then there is no reason for you to read or post in this topic, other than to troll.
I trust mods will take note.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
What about the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
You probably believe that terrorist come from the Middle East instead of the oval office too, Phtt your not worthy of the /. republic.
As has been said, open source software is original work, and it is not fair to compare copies, even translations with an original creation. That said, the fact that we create clones of proprietary software (OpenOffice and Evolution and the GIMP and...) leads people to draw these comparisons. Of course, people didn't make these products to be clones, they made them because users asked for features that they were used to from using the proprietary products...So now we have a lot of software that looks and feels like their proprietary counterparts...this may seem like a "translation" of the proprietary products to the open source "language"...but the closed-source proprietary products never told us anything in any language! So, though tempting, your comparison is not apt! apt-get install another!
I'm against picketing but I don't know how to show it.
If you have no basis on which to rest your statements then there is no reason for you to read or post in this topic, other than to troll.
I trust mods will take note.
Jesus, what an inflated ego.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
--
Evan "Artists? Being individualistic? Never!"
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Box torrents
I um.. only heard this from a friend tho. It isn't like i go there every day or anything.
If you have no basis on which to rest your statements then there is no reason for you to read or post in this topic, other than to troll.
I trust mods will take note.
Do you realize you sound JUST LIKE "Comicbook Man"?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
I hate reading right to left...
This is why doujinshi are allowed by most publishers, even if technically illegal. The artists want the exposure, and reading an actual manga is FAR superior to reading it off a computer screen. There is a reason ebooks never caught on, and manga scanlations have the same negatives. Luckily, when something is scanlated and downloaded a lot it often does get licensed, so I get to read it as a book. Yay!
Not a sentence!
I'll admit I'm a mecha fanboy when it comes to anime but I don't think slashdot is the place for it. No offence to the guys but you have a link to Anime FU or whatever right on the frontpage, why not post it there? I don't mean to troll or nothing but we're here for geek news, theres enough anime news sites out there for us to goto if we wish. We come here for technology, space and general geek news.
I just don't see slashdot as the right place for this and comparing whatever to open source is really just a check way to plug something through something else. (Notice how slashdot is quite like that geocities site because they both use the internet?).
Sorry but I for one would rather keep slashdot and anime apart
--- [Insert intresting Sig here]
haven't we got past the high technology glorification phase?
If he has absolutely no familiarity with a form he professes to hate, and has no basis he is willing to provide as the reason for that hate, he really has no reason to post, other than to bait people.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
... But I sure do like me some Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. I figured out that if I bought the Japanese domestic DVDs of all 26 episodes -- with no subs, of course -- I'd be paying something in the neighbourhood of CAD$1100 after purchase, shipping, and duty for one season of a television series I wouldn't understand. So, y'know.
apt-get manga
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Actually, in that scenario, yes, it is.
I was speaking about sufficiency for discussion -- that is what is supposed to be taking place here. If he has an informed opinion, but sums it up as "it's crappy," we have no peg for discussion.
On the other hand, if he is trolling, he has posted sufficiently.
The rest of your post is just as hair-splitting and picayune as your opening jab. When someone has no familiarity with the subject at hand, it is not "taste" that is being discussed.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Lauzier, Jacques Tardi, Francois Bourgeon, Moebius, Art Spiegelman...
http://www.lambiek.com/tardi.htm
Art Spiegelman made a comic book, Maus, about the life in a german concentration camp during ww2.
(i'm sure you'll just ignore this so i won't bother writing more)
There's similarity of legality and similarity of method. The argument here seems to be that this is another example of the Internet enabling distributed workloads to be caried out by loosely-structured groups. Seems true enough. (This also seems to be a case where the artists and publishers do genuinely benefit from the unauthorized activity.)
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
This sounds similar in spirit to what emulator and video game fans have been doing for years, only the video game translations are legal.
In the post-Atari era (but before the PSX started making it big), an American-made video game was a rare and often horrible occurance. The only way the video games got translated for release over here was if the company thought that it would make a profit on the game and if it fit an "American" audience, which excluded almost all role-playing games.
Once emulation of the SNES became feasible, dedicated bi-lingual fans began translating the games by themselves or in teams and provided binary patches against the non-translated versions of the ROMs. This can't be compared in any way to open source, as another poster compared the translated manga, because almost none of the translators ever released any of the tools or documents that they used in the translation.
Video game translation is still a thriving community today and is one of the best ways to experience some of the greatest games that never saw the light of day on these shores.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
The difference between the Manga industry and the Music industry is that the creators still own the copyright. On the whole, people only go into that sort of industry if they love the work, so they want as many people as possible to enjoy it.
If by manga you mean pr0n, and if by reading you mean staring fixedly at one page for a few minutes, then yeah, I read manga!
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Anime, like any other consumable media, comes in three flavors:
1) Absolute shit served up with a marketing blitz
2) A valiant effort that self-destructs mid run (possibly because they ran out of money after the marketing blitz)
3) The overlooked gems.
I'm sure it'd be easy to make a similar list for any number of product areas:
Popular music, Reality TV, Feature Films, Websites, Taco Bell franchises, celebrity-sponsored hair care product lines, etc.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Please don't misrepresent the manga/anime fansubbing/scanlation community to those who won't recognize just how ignorant you are. I know you think in black and white because of the way the movie and music studios have treated "piracy", but the difference between anime/manga studios and western movie/music studios could not possibly be any different with how they treat p2p distribution of their work.
Fansubbers and now BitTorrent link sites(at least, the ones run by fans, not p2p-kiddies) usually have policies about licensed content; stuff disappears when it gets licensed for distribution in a country where the translated language is spoken. AnimeSuki for example, does not list a single licensed series, even if groups are making torrents available. Anime[mircx] has actually shut down until they are technically able to honor a request from ADV (a distributor) to not list ADV series, regardless of licensing. Many IRC Fserve operators delete series if their fansub group has a policy for doing so.
Only one group, to my knowledge, has publicly gone against the requests of a studio or distributor, and that would be AnimeJunkies, who had an extremely poor reputation already (mention "mass naked child events" to anyone who was a fan of Ghost in The Shell: SAC and watch them giggle- it was one of their more famous mistranslations). AJ is, consequently, now almost dead- fansubbing very little, and shunned by most. I can't begin to describe the amount of hate that many anime fans had for AJ after a studio employee posted on a board the conversation she had with an AJ leader.
Fansub groups also STRONGLY discourage selling of their work by putting in "NOT FOR EBAY, SALE OR RENT, FAN TRANSLATION" randomly into their works(ebaying CD-R/DVD-R copies of group's works was particularly popular at one point among sleazy individuals- profit margins are quite good), and they often include a message urging people to buy the DVDs when they come out- and from being on IRC channels a decent amount, a lot of people DO buy the DVDs, soundtracks, etc when they come out.
The studios and distributors respect what the fansubbing community has done for them; they're fully aware they exist and they have zero desire to "do" something about them. You simply wouldn't have seen films like Spirited Away, and much of the stuff on Adult Swim come into the US if fansub groups hadn't slowly been building a market (or at least appreciation) for Anime. Further- the fansubs actually create more of a market for the DVDs and trinkets...not less.
So, pardon me when I take serious umbrage at you stating that fansub and scanlation groups are thieves, because it's one of the most ignorant statements I've heard in quite some time.
Please help metamoderate.
Obviously doesn't visit his local adult book store very often, where he might find a wide assortment of comic books the would get you 10 to 15 in a federal "pound-me-in-the-ass" prison if you gave them to kids.
Still, you gotta feel nostalgic for these "lost in the fifties" types. He's propbably still trying to figure out why ordinary people have a need for computer tousands of times more powerful than UNIVAC....
As I read this story, I felt my 2 front teeth begin to protrude over my lower lip, and then....almotht immediately, I developed a lithp. Mutht....go....outthide....and play. Mutht rethitht the /.
"Patience is not a virtue, it's a waste of time."
Its great fun. Typical tournament style, lets get stronger shonen stuff, but the strength lies in baking bread!
I think my favourite is the guy who's not so good, and plagued by self-doubt - the 'hero' is a bit to perfect. Tha boss with the afro is cool, and the girl is really cute, and I feel sorry for mushroom head.
Yay me!
I make translations to hone my skills and for my own personal entertainment...I only translate the stuff I like the best, and which is too dense to understand by just reading it without thoroughly understanding every last word.
I have done thus far:
Eden (Hiroki Endo) 1-6
Blame (Tsutomu Nihei) 1-10
Cyborg Kuro-chan (fuck if I remember the guys name offhand) vol 1
Shin Amhaengeosa (korean, also can't remember the author's name offhand) vol 1-2
If other people enjoy what I've done (I've posted them various places, some are online on translation pages, but my pages are down now), fine, but I do it for my own purposes.
Those big-eyed boys and girls with unlimited power who struggle with something very evil (with small eyes). (Hmm, looks like racial issue ;)
Oh, shit, that was script for my manga!
I agree.
I was over in Japan last month, I was astonished to see how things had changed over the last few years since I was there. I used to see everyone in the subways reading manga, now NOBODY reads manga anymore, they're all doing email on their keitai (cel phones).
I talked to some publishers, they admitted that the market for manga was collapsing, authors and inkers that were barely making money before the collapse are now getting out of the business.
What will the poor fanboys do when there are no longer any new comic books from Japan? Better start learning Korean. Too bad that Japanese you tried to learn was a big waste of time.
Someone told me that anime rhymes with gay.
But what does manga sound like?
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree. It would be the equivelant of taking, oh hell, what are you kids playing today, Thief 3 or something? Ok it's like they take Thief 3 and translate it to Russian and give it away to everyone who speaks Russian for free.
A manga initiative comparable to open source would be if people teamed up to write and draw a comic to give away for free, but coming up with interesting characters and stories involves having talent and actual work which is why the manga translation community is larger than the making good free manga community. It's also why the pirate Microsoft Office community is larger than the people who contribute to open office.
I tried reading some manga and watching Trigun, Helsing, and GTO. None of it held my interest.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
What the japanese think about scanlations/fansubs
h tm l
http://uguu.org/etc/midori_no_hibi/fansubs_2ch.
The creators are not losing money in scanlation. Because people who do not read Japanese would not buy the books anyway. I've never read them, but I've certainly watched fansubs. And as I said, they're not losing money. I wouldn't buy it in raw Japanese because it wouldn't make any sense to me. Further, after watching said show I buy the little bobbles, the posters, the pillows, the nightgowns, etc... So they're making money off me that they wouldn't have made otherwise.
Also, I was under the impression that scanlations and fansubs were not illegal when the material was not licensed for the US. Being not licensed for the US means 'no one has the rights to this material in this country'. It may not be legal, but I don't think it's illegal to do this sort of thing. There is no one to sue you because no one owns it.
Also, as noted, what are you supposed to do? Never read or watch the piece of work because no US distributor wants to pick it up? As others have said, US Distributors often choose what to license from what people are fansubbing. Do you think the creator of Naruto cares that it was Scanlated now that it's on the USA Today Top 150? It never would have been picked up if it was never scanlated.
And while some fansubs and scanlations are done rather shoddily, so are a lot of the US Distributed stuff. They'll stuff too many episodes on a disc and lose frames. Or they will not translate swears so they can market to kids. So you if you want to actually read, to the best of your ability when you don't know the language, what the creator intended, sometimes this is your only avenue.
And the people who do this stuff are not doing it for money. They simply want to expose people to stuff they love. They mostly do this stuff on their free time and for no money. I think villifying them and the people who patronize them is unfair.
I don't think they are doing anything wrong morally or illegally.
I don't believe scanslations for popular manga like Naruto was ever the basis for licensing. Naruto is like hotcakes in Japan and what kind of US company wouldn't want to capitalize on that? While scanslations might be useful for less well known manga, the bigger, more popular series don't need any more publicity than they already have.
I'm sure artists might appreciate the fact that people went out of their way to devote their free time in translating the artists' works, but I sincerely doubt, except for a few artists, that they would be happy about it being distributed for free online.
My favorite greek tragedy is the Ajax. Never heard of it? That's because it's never been translated into English. Therefore, for those of us who cannot translate ancient Greek we have to go about procuring it in other ways. I have a translation from a graduate student that I received from someone and have subsequently photocopied for other people. Because what am I supposed to do? Not read it? Or just wait for the rest of my life so one day I can give 10 dollars to a publishing company? There is a major difference, where the copyright on such an ancient piece of work is obvious expired, if one ever existed. But I think the sentiment is the same. I guess I can wait two generations until manga's copyright expires. Maybe I can be cryogenically frozen so I can read the things I want now for free on the internet in the future. I'll pay for it, if they give it to me, but if it's not in my language, what options do I have?
Speaking as "scanlator," I have to say you're a bit naive about how these things work. Sure, sometimes a fan translation includes puns or jokes that the official US release does not, more often than not, these translations are filled with errors (either simple or obscure). One of the few examples I can give where I honestly thought the scanlation did it better than the official release (Disclaimer: I worked on the scanlation in question) was "Comic Party" by Sekihiro Inui.
The series is filled with obscure references (and I do mean obscure - we're talking stuff that takes quite a bit of digging and googling to figure out), most of which were simply removed in the US edition. This isn't in itself a bad thing, but Tokyopop, the company that released it, rendered several panels confusing or just plain wrong. The worst change comes late in the book, when two characters are talking about an anime series from the same company that produced the "Comic Party" anime. In the US version, one character comments "I wish they'd import shows like that to Japan," which is completely, utterly wrong (as the series originated in Japan, and
But examples like these are few and far between. The fact is, most scanlations are awful. More of them then many people would think are translated from the Chinese or Korean editions of the series, the scans of the pages are often very low quality, and many times the dialogue is either completely literal or really badly written and punctuated by someone with little English skill. Comparing blantent copyright violating like this to an open source project is not just foolish, but completely wrong. The only reason most companies let scanlation continue is because they don't really think it's going to affect their sales.
That doesn't mean I don't find it an enjoyable hobby - but thinking you're getting an equal or better version than the legal release is freakin' stupid.
Nonsense. On-line at Tufts and sitting on my shelf by, here's a clue, Sir Richard I-Translated-All-The-Greek-Stuff.
Ajax isn't great literature, it's a tortuous little piece and I bet it never played to full houses.
The Matrix morphed so slowly and gradually into something like Powerball Z or whatever it's called that I never actually realized I was watching manga until the climactic Neo vs Smith battle where they fought in the sky like characters in manga often do.
But it makes perfect sense in retrospect; the filmmakers even used a lot of japanese masters to help in the production, so there was already evidence the Wachowski brothers were heavily influenced by eastern arts.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
Evidently easy to fool the likes of Taco & Hemos. As if.
I have found some scanlations to have better translations than the professionally done manga. companies like Tokyopop massproduce them and are sloppy. ones by american comic book companies like Darkhorse have proved to be much better quality (ie: fewer spelling mistakes)
Here's some clue for you. If you have ever jerked off while looking at a Manga book, seek professional help immediately.
While it probably isn't legal, no one is going to try to stop them (at least for unlicensed manga). Look at Doujinshi (fan manga). By all accounts it completely violates IP law, but mangaka never sue over doujinshi because it just creates more interest in their work. Granted, doujinshi has some original art and/or story, but serves the same purpose as scanslations do here. It creates interest. I would have never gotten into naruto without the scanslations, and now I've spent more money on it than is probably healthy. On second thought, maybe it's not such a good thing..
manga usually refers to the written form.. like comic books.. Dragonball Z is Anime.. unless you're reading a dragonball z comic then its manga
the matrix was neither manga nor anime, it was just pure shit
IT'S MANGO.
Of course the japanese themselves don't really seem to care yet and the american companies seem even to judge the success of scanlations as to wich series they should license but that doesn't mean that someone somewhere couldn't start a prosecution.
The only bright spot is that the law on translation of original works has no exceptions wich mean that absolutly noone is excempted and cannot do a translation without the copyright owner. The snag? News stations doing those translations of Al Queda tapes and similar. I am pretty damn sure Al Queda did not give CNN written permission to do a translation. Or for the matter the US goverment (remember no exceptions). If this will hold up in court is another matter but there is such a things as equality in the justice system. If they prosecute a manga fan for violating copyright with a translation they must prosecute everyone else who does as well.
For now scanlations exists because the copyright owners don't care.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Ah, yeah. Read it freshmen year. HIGHLY recommend it.
American culture? Isn't that an oxymoron?
I've become a manga addict. I haunt scanlation sites, waiting for new releases.
Well, I don't actually, but I do keep up with many manga series. I'm currently waiting on Naruto, One Piece, Hunter x Hunter and other smaller works. I'm reading Touch, 3x3 Eyes, Video Girl Ai, Bleach, and a whole bunch of others. And I've been through Kenshin, Flame of Recca, Kimagure Orange Road, and more. All within the last six months.
I read manga much too quickly, but it just compels me on and on. American comic books never managed to captivate me in this manner.
Scanlators do us a valuable service; scanning and editing are very time consuming. Also, American publishing houses take forever to get releases out, it's ridiculous.
Manga is relatively inexpensive in the local Kinokuniya bookstore. I've bought a few import mangas, even though I can't read Japanese, but to support the cause.
However, I think it will be a while before manga gains a mainstream audience in the US, due to the differences in cultural mores.
But he does have a basis...
It's his FUCKING OPINION that MANGA LOOKS CRAPPY.
What's your least favorite color? OH YEAH? WELL WHAT'S YOUR BASIS ON WHICH YOU REST YOUR ARGUMENT THAT SAID COLOR IS WORSE THAN OTHERS?? HUH? HUH?!?!?!
Opinion. It's what makes us different.
Fucktard.
kaens.blogspot.com
You know, not all manga looks the same, but all manga looks like.....well...manga. I've never seen a manga that I thought was something else after seeing the cover to it.
You can tell a manga at first glance.
You don't need extensive knowledge, or even working knowledge of anything to know whether or not you are going to like it.
Say I don't like sitcoms. I just don't like them. When I see a commercial for a new sitcom, do I need to watch it to know I won't like it? Well, there is a possibility that I would, but I would say that there's a 99% chance that I wont.
DO YOU SEE?
kaens.blogspot.com
Let me first start by saying that this topic is well worth while. Regardless of the commerciality of the fluff anime like Sailor Moon, and Pokemon and such, anime and manga is art. Like all art it has its right to be freely distributed, and at the same rate the artists have the right to be reimbursed for the display of their talent. The arguement that would ensue is moot. Some will be and some won't be, either way there are alot of us fanboy-geeks who love siliconized bouncing women with oddly colored hair and big doe-eyes, fantastic monsters, glittery sci-fi, and metal gods who will gladly pay for the ones we have to and rip off the ones we can! Now to the meat of the topic. The opening comment asks the question: "How many of you guys read Manga or watch Anime" Well I read and Watch both. Alot of people don't understand the difference betweent Anime and Manga. It is the art style, not the format. Manga is more detailed and stylized. More realistic for what it is worth. Anime is semi flat solid colors, big eyes, gaping mouths, etcetera. To put it simply: Inu Yasha = Anime, Ghost in the Shell = Manga By the way, gotta love the whole "tentacle porn" thread. However don't leave out the multicolor dayglow ejaculate, you can't leave that out. OKay I'm done now.
You wish they'd all do that. The same way you wish people who download scanlations, would buy the stuff when it does become available. But it's not always that way, and you know it
But anyway, let me ask you a simple question... When it's evident that a series is going to be licensed and released sooner or later, but is not yet officially anunced as licensed, do you really think it stands to reason to fansub it?
This is BS. As a manga letterer in America I can tell you specifically that at least one MAJOR manga publisher browses the scanlation sites to find out what properties NOT to bring over. It makes no business sense to invest in putting out an edition with a competing translation (fan-made or not) and muddies the potential licensing. Also, many Japanese publishers (espically the giants) are not turning "a blind eye" but are looking into whatever legal angles they have available in this country and abroad to bring scanlation to an end. And bottom line for the artists is if they do not see money for their work a pirated version harms them. Period.
I read manga too, I do download them, but I so much prefer printed books and comics to reading stuff from the monitor. I hate it when I can't carry my computer with me wherever I go. So I try to buy manga as much I can. The only problem here is that there are only a couple of series sold in Finland that are translated into finnish; Dragonball and Ranma ½.
- Voice of Ambience -
So, why do you have a pickle up your butt?
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
By introducing the term "least favorite" you are suggesting there was something comparative in his post. There wasn't. He said "manga is crappy."
Manga is not one thing that looks one way, the only essential to it is INK and PAPER. However ink and paper CAN look is how manga DOES look.
If this were a thread discussing the music that you like to listen to, and I came in with the statement "all that dark metal shot is crap," wouldn't you feel that you at least had a right to at ask if I knew the difference between Lizzie Borden and Venom?
The topic is not "Is all manga worthless," and his ill-informed opinion isn't relevant to the discussion. He was trolling, plain and simple.
Anyway, get a grip on yourself. It's not that big a deal.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
...but that's just because I like hearing the characters talk.
It's easy to come to the conclusion that all manga is crappy without much investigation.
From a real quick search, here's a few manga images that I think it would be very tough for anyone to simply dismiss as "crappy": 2oth Century Boys
Argento Soma
This or anything else by Hayao Miyazaki
You can look at those three pictures and tell me that the artists involved are turning out crap? If you can, good luck to ya, but we are in way different worlds.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
I buy most of my comics used. Almost never more than 300 yen, about half the time only 100, unless it's something that is almost never seen used.
You can look at those three pictures and tell me that the artists involved are turning out crap? If you can, good luck to ya, but we are in way different worlds.
Exactly, and all the discussion that is possible on the subject.
I like brussels sprouts. You don't. So, we live in way different worlds. It happens.
KFG
Interesting, that. I read Sophocles' Ajax in the Green and Lattimore translation at Univeristy. Unless, of course, you mean someone *else*'s Ajax.
Ajax also is my favourite of the Greek tragedies, but it's *definitely* available in English translation...
Does anything like this exist? I'm really looking for some manga like that to use as a learning aid.
Also, my second question is, are there any companies that monitor the fansubbing community and download sites and provide popularity statistics to the studios? Sounds like it could be an interesting business idea.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
There are several instances where scanslation is up to par with the serialized release (Shounen Jump, Afternoon, Hana to Yume, etc) Inuyasha has it, One Piece has it, Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou has it, Mar (Flame of Recca's Anzai Nobuyuki's newest manga) has it, Busou Renkin (Rurouni Kenshin's Watsuki Nobuhiro's newest) has it, and several others I don't know about.
Fact is, most scanslation groups wait for the better-quality tankoubon compilation's release to make the scans, so chapters tend to be late at least three months from their release in the serial magazine.
Funny you're calling someone touchy for defending another guy's right to express his opinion, yet you're rabidly posting in here defending a cartoon. Some manga is great stuff, but it's not for everyone, and if you don't realize that then you're a bit too observed.
It's funny how seriously some of you take this shit.
I could do it with a 3d program, of course, but it would take me ages. I would like the program to handle physics, effects (explosions etc), animation, the natural or natural environments etc...I would have to input the characters, the story, the dialogs, and then the app's engine would play the movie out.
It would be much more interesting than writing manga. And it could spawn new anime talents.
By introducing the term "least favorite" you are suggesting there was something comparative in his post. There wasn't. He said "manga is crappy."
Actually, I said I think Magna LOOKS crappy, not IS crappy. Then, everyone jumped on me for not having a basis for my opinion and so forth. BUT, I *bet* that if I said "I think Magna looks great", nobody would have given a shit about basis for my opinion. Right? So what's that tell ya...
You'll have that sometimes...
Saying "manga looks crappy" is like saying "comic books are for kids." There's no way that they are all alike or share a single esthetic; there's far more variety in Japanese mass-market comics -- in artstyle, storytelling techniques, intended audience -- than in the US product.
Unless you can lend some further depth to your remarks, you are simply a troll.
Would you have the same opinion about the depth of my remarks if my post read...
"Maybe it's just me but I love this stuff. I just think it looks fantastic." instead of "Maybe it's just me but I hate this stuff. I just think it looks crappy. I know that it's just me though."
No, you wouldn't. So back off. I just don't like it, I didn't say it sucked, I just said I don't like it. I don't like Andy Warhol's work either, because I think his art looks crappy.
You'll have that sometimes...
I used to pick up several graphic novel series. The problem was, that it got really expensive.
:)
I like my graphic novels like I like my anime. I'll purchase small series, where a few DVDs and I've got all it need (series like Trigun, Excel Saga, Cowboy Bebop are like this).
I used to buy both the graphic novels and anime for Ranma 1/2. Now I've got dozens of video tapes and a bunch of DVDs sitting around (though I've recently been selling them off). I probably spent nearly $1,000 on that one series. Sure, I enjoyed the stories, but that is just too much money.
I think maybe a rental service or an on demand TV series for anime might be the thing. A lot of anime is also available online on various sharing tools (not that I would ever do such a thing!) with fan subtitles.
I've never gotten a montly comic (Manga) itself. I've always stuck to the graphic novels.
Also, some Manga's and Anime series tend to be very very close in story (Ranma being one) so only 1 of the two need be purchased.
I would highly recommend getting the Akira manga collection. It is only the base for the movie and a much different story. I found it absolutely incredible and is one of the few series I am glad I spent the money on. Most of the rest, I'll probably try to ebay sometime.
Here's a little history lesson for a few people whose only exposure to it has been through the Last Samurai and Anime. In 1854 Commodore Perry opened Japan to the west with big ships and big guns. However in Japan there already existed a movement among the youth (particularly of those who's regions had suffered at the hands of the Tokugawa regime... the same people whom lost the battle of Sekigahara in 1600; most notably Choshu and Satsuma) put out to learn anything they could from the Western world, its science, politics, education systems, military and even religion. Through the Portuguese trade port at Nagasaki (the only one open between ~1639-1854) young Japanese interested in the west were able to buy Western books on these topics. They were particularly interested in Dutch books, and would translate anything they could get their hands on. Among these young reformers was a man named Fukuzawa Yukichi (whose mug graces the largest currency note in Japan, the 10,000 yen bill.) He enthusiastically translated works into Japanese because no such works were available to them. He understood the need for Western knowledge, and furiously pursued it. His lust for knowledge culminated in his role in the Meiji Revolution/Reformation and is subsequent government, to which he became the force behind the powerful Japanese educational system. He also founded Keio University, the Yale of Japan. All of hits achievements are recorded in an autobiography, which is very readable, informative, and lovingly translated into English. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/023 1083734/103-1385388-4246266?v=glance)
Fukuzawa Yukichi, the father of the Japanese educational establishment was never one for the conformity. He taught through his example never to follow the rules, always to blaze your own trail.
As one who has been involved in the translation of Manga into English for the past six years, i would like to say my achievements have been as monumentous as those of Fukuzawa Yukichi, it would of course be untrue. Where Fukuzawa had been interested in translating Western works on science and society into Japanese for the sake of enlightenment, my role in "scanlation" has been mostly to fulfill my own selfish comforts. But lets not diminish the dedication and love many put into these translations.
There are people in the community who translate several volumes of manga a week... a feet that would boggle the minds of the best professional translators. Why do they do it? Because like in the time of Fukuzawa there is a disparagement. Not a radical disparagement like the educational level of Japan compared with the West, but one that anyone who loves literature would feel pain for. For this i will give an example.
Imagine if Les Miserables had never been translated into English, if Victor Hugo was by some chance relegated to the reach of only a few people in France wealthy or interested enough to read the grand classic on the poverty and deprivation of man. Well to any bilingual person, the desire to convey this story to people outside of France would be great. Just imagine if English companies were only interested in importing works of French only if they made a particular profit margin. Well then the interest in Translating Les Mis (unabridged its a mammoth, almost unreadable length... it rivals the Bible for space on my bookshelf.) would be relegated to a few people with limited resources to translate it for the pure sake of purveying the story.
That in some cases is what "scanlation" is. For the sake of series that will never be translated into English, yet deserve it. And I'm particularly proud that in this spirit i am able to bring to an English reading audience something that is better in many ways than what they will find in the Manga section on the shelves of Barnes and Nobles.
Or you could wait some time and legally buy the US version.
But oh, my, waiting!
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Ink on paper looks like whatever the artist can bring to it, no matter what nation he's from; manga looks great and it looks crappy. I don;t see how the whole field can be tarred with the same brush.
I probably would not have said a thing if the statement was: "comic books and manga, all that stuff is a load of crap." I can understand that, it's a consistent point of view that I can see a basis for.
But if the statement is that US comic books can be good but manga always looks like crap, then I'd assume that the speaker hasn't been exposed to a wide range of manga.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Also, many Japanese publishers (espically the giants) are not turning "a blind eye" but are looking into whatever legal angles they have available in this country and abroad to bring scanlation to an end.
Well, if they want the scanlations to be stopped they just would have to ask.
Look at the links I put in my post.
TW scanlated Naruto & Hikaru No Go, they got licensed and TW stopped scanlating them.
SnoopyCool also stopped hosting certain mangas after being asked to (yes, hosting - they are still working on scanlating the manga - because the publish really only asked to stop hosting the manga, and not stopping the scanlation, weird but true.)
You see, if the publishers or artists really would mind they could get the honorable groups to stop.
Also I don't quite understand your argumentation: If I were a publisher and found a manga that has a HUGE scanlation fanbase, I'd think the following: Lots of people already like the manga. They are only a fraction (33%?)of all the people the might like the manga -> If I bring it over, and sell it I still will make a big profit even if the scanlation people don't buy any of the manga (which is unlikely)
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
"Hahaha. Thanks for the laugh. And by the way, what makes you think professional translators can't be fans?"
I never said professional translators can't be fans, just that they usually aren't. And even if they are fans, most of the time its more of a shallow "Hey this is cool fanship" which causes the deeper elements in the works to be lost in translation. When fans translate something it's because it means something to them. When professionals translate something, they usually have other motives (possibly in addition to fanship) which color their translations.
"Where did I bring the law into it?"
Well, where in your personal morality does it tell you that you are allowed to dictate what other people can and can't do? Restricting the freedoms of people is the sole realm of law. Accusing other people of "lacking" (?!?) personal morality won't change that.
Short Rant about the "lacking" statement:
I don't quite see how people can be lacking in personal morality. Personal morality is just the basis an individual uses to decide right and wrong. An individual lacking morality would neither be able to classify something as right or as wrong, and hence can do nothing.
In the cases in question they merely to no share certain aspects of your morality. So you should just call them BJH-morality deficient.
Every person has a different morality. Just being different doesn't make it nonexistent.
Also:
Why are you so insulting in your comments/troll? Are you really so insecure in your own viewpoint that you need to push others down to make your own opinions more credible?
You can look at those three pictures and tell me that the artists involved are turning out crap? If you can, good luck to ya, but we are in way different worlds.
If you mean crap as in untalented, then no. If you mean crap as in "I think it's crap." then yes, yes I can.
I could have liver cooked by the best liver-cook in the world and still think it's crap because I don't like liver.
Does that means it's crap? Yeah, to me at least because it's not my thing. Manga's not his thing.
You know, he wasn't saying "MAN THOSE MANGA MAKERS CANT DRAW WORTH A SHIT"
Dont you?
kaens.blogspot.com
That's why "manga is crap" makes no sense as a critique. You might as well say "ink drawings on paper originating from Japan are crap."
All I asked is for the guy to define his critique more specifically. If it is not defined more specifically it remains meaningless.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07