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Mind Scans to Map Decision Making Mechanics
rrangel writes "Newsweek is running an article on the fMRI, which tracks brain function by measuring blood flow, and using it for watching the mechanics of economics and choice. Best quote on economic choice: '... there is no quantity of juice sufficient to get a male monkey to look away from the hindquarters of a female in estrus.' H. Hefner has known that all along."
Why can't wives understand that?
We don't need that the female be in estrus.
First, why do researchers assume that blood flow and glucose use equals proof of thought patterns? Now, there may be a correlation, but as my research methods professor loved to say "correlation does not equal causation"
Second, juice may not get him. but cocaine will. I saw a study that showed a monkey will give up everything, including food and sex, for cocaine.
I'm not sure that monkeys know the difference, but when I consider chance in a wagering-like fashion, I tend to consider whether or not something will really change my life for more than just the short-term.
Dropping $20 on an array of Mega Millions tickets is mathematically irrational, but with or without that $20, my life for the next two weeks will be about the same. If I were to win, however, even the second-best prize, it would enable me to purchase a nice house.
When it's a matter of playing a game where the expected value of my dollar is $0.95, but I'm more likely to win $2 or $3, why bother? But even if the expected value of my dollar is $0.75 or less with a prize of many million and many over $100k, despite the miniscule chances of winning, it would change my life.
Of course, if I had an expected value of $1.05 for my dollar, I'm smart enough to play consistently even if my dollar only wins a little at a time.
-PM
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
there is no quantity of juice sufficient
Oh really? I bet they only tried 'reasonable' amounts of juice. They can't be sure unless they try an infinite amount of juice -- or rather, an amount of juice so unfeasibly preposterously gigantic that the monkey is simply nable to comprehend it, so that changes in the juice quantity no longer have any effect. When they use that much juice, I'll take remarks like the above seriously
Disclaimer: I am only writing this because I am thirsty and like thinking about juice.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
OK, so say they find out how the brain works in this way. Who is going to use it, advertisers. If they could use drungs or subliminal things they would. Now what, my girlfriend will want to shop more. Now, they will get me to buy more useless things.
Someone please tell me how this is going to help me?
Evolution or ID?
According to the them, science has it wrong. They should be scanning my posterior instead of my head. Since I married them, I would agree.
<sig>no sig</sig>
No, it's from not having a job! You insensitive clod!
now imagine TWO male monkeys who can't look away from the hindquarters of a female in estrus.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
It's great to see fMRI getting some press, but the article fails to mention some of the important limitations of the technology. The magnitude of the signal is only 1-5% over the noise and comparisons need to be made at thousands of locations. Also only very simple tasks can reasonably be studied. Regardless, the technology has great promise in medical applications. I am currently invovled in a a study where fMRI is accurately distinguishing between patients who are at high risk for AD and controls. As an additional plug, I think quantitative neurology is great area for CS, Math etc types to get involved in.
The only category of people who consistently play as game theory dictates, offering the minimum possible amount, are those who don't take into account the feelings of the other player. They are autistics.
Note that humans are thus called irrational, when in fact the game theory models is deficient, leaving out all of the factors that normal people use when making human decisions.
maybe they should have used MS marketing droids
:P
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I can do this research for about $0.
How many people here enjoy Hustler or Playboy?
ok, now how many enjoy "Big juice box weekly"?
What if they added more juice?
even more?
Case closed.
Before you mod me funny, think, perhaps I was insightfully funny?
What even if the monkey hasn't had anything to drink for the past week (well maybe day or two, I don't tnik it could do anything after a week).
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Because when you cut those bits out of your head, (Yep we have the Nazis to thank) the functionality relates to the energy burnt.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Oo! I've thought of what to do with this information. We can start using sex to sell things, like juice! I wonder why no one has thought of it before!
Before you mod me funny, think, perhaps I was insightfully funny?
No, it would be used to get people to "trust" a corp. or Government, so that they buy more shit or follow mindlessly the politicians. Because, only the corps or gov'ts would have the money to afford such a procedure.
Even a trained monkey, could we use this to develop better rehab. Some people who've given up coke before know how to do it again, and don't get re-hooked.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
with my "Jump To Conclusions" mat. Good enough for all of life's decisions!
The whole investment game thing is a lot like what happened when BitTorrent came out. Some people hacked the client to not upload. Of course, if everyone did this then the network would not function. So the standard client program retaliates against people who do this by not sending them pieces. But following a strict strategy of "I'll only give you a piece if you give me one" is equally bad because if everyone did that, then no one would ever get anything. So most will give an initial piece without having received anything. And the general result is that the optimal strategy is to aim for a 1:1 ratio (you get $5 and I get $5) and to risk losing the initial investment ($10) rather than risk ending up with nothing because no one will play.
In the end, what value does this offer? Sounds like more of the same topic of controlling us lemmings in the long run. Or maybe M$ (heck MSNBC reported it) is looking for a way to persuade the EU...
So what are you waiting for?
Christmas?
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
A lottery is a tax on people who can't do math.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Anyone interested in theories of consciousness and how they might relate to artificial neural networks, you may want to check out "Radiant Cool" by Dan Lloyd.
In this book he uses multi-dimensional scaling analysis of fMRI scans to predict past and future states of the same brain, as well as doing the same thing with artificial networks.
It then uses the evidence from this research to propose what (to me, at least) is the first really solid explanation for what consciousness may actually "be".
The book is written in 2 parts... the first one is a detective novel where the main character is a Phenomenologist and in the process of solving a murder finds a theory of consciousness. The 2nd part of the book is a factual appendix describing the work.
Awesome stuff, and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in neural nets and AI.
articles like this are especially frustrating to MRI physics geeks like me, because there's a delicate balance bwteen wanting the media to help promote science, and watching helplessly as they mangle it into pure science fiction. The BOLD effect by which fMRI observes brain activity is orders of magnitude removed from the sensitivity of indivdual neuron measurements, and as other commentators have pointed out there's a real limit on what you can expect to understand about human thought processes using that tool.
:)
I've actually started a blog devoted to megnetoic resonance imaging (http://refscan.blogspot.com/ and would like to invite anyone else interested in MRI to visit and comment. Our patron Saint is Magneto
Don't blame me - I voted for Howard Dean. http://dean2004.blogspot.com
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I certainly don't need a lab test to know when my period is coming. Just because women apparently conceal from you when they're menstruating that doesn't mean that we don't know.
Then that's a different reason for spending the dollar. It's from the 'fun' budget instead of the 'investment' budget.
A few years back, I took my son to visit my sister in Utah. There was a stopover of a few hours in Vegas, so I budgeted some 'fun' money to play the one-arm bandits at the airport, with the anticipated result of losing it all. I was disappointed in the machines, because there was no feel to the lever, no inertia, no clutch engaging a flywheel, nothing. So after a few minutes of play I was up $10 and bored, so I decided to quit. It took me a few minutes and some loss to figure out how to quit, but I was still ahead when I finally cashed out. Sometimes fun can pay, I guess. I still like the fact that I beat the odds in Vegas.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Should be interesting to see what its capable of, and if anyone is willing to go inside (considering the strength)!
Yawn. Another 'scientific' theory that relies on the social prejudice that humans are all inherently monogamous heterosexual carnivores. Reality is likely to be a little more complex.
"the Platonic metaphor of the mind as a charioteer driving twin horses of reason and emotion is on the right track--except that cognition is a smart pony, and emotion a big elephant."
The only thing is, this is basically what the Platonic metaphor says- reason is a weak little horse that doesn't do much of anything, and passion is a wild, kicking, biting stallion that moves the whole thing wherever it wants. The pony/elephant distinction doesn't add anything to the metaphor. Don't get me wrong- the technology is neat and all, and the article might have been worth it for news on technology. But 'humans are irrational'? Is that really news to anyone?
I hope those topics aren't related...
... there is no quantity of juice sufficient to get a male monkey to look away from the hindquarters of a female
Don't offer juice, offer a chance for a First Post modded up to +5, Insightful. Trust me, I have to beat the women off with a stick to get to my keyboard in time. Slashdot is my juice and I'm swimming in an ocean of it, baby.
I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."
Try running this experiment on people who haven't had anything to drink for 12 hours and see how it turns out :)
Yet another beautiful experiment runs headlong into the brutal facts.
The slashdot scan is outstanding this morning.
"Best quote on economic choice: '... there is no quantity of juice sufficient to get a male monkey to look away from the hindquarters of a female in estrus.'"
then
Science: Drilling Under the Sea
ugh. is it really monday?
"This wound is beyond my ability to heal. We need Elvis medicine!"
How about that for morality and ethics in the world of reporters?
"I reasoned that a man would have been just as competitive as I am, and guessed that I was going to betray him on the ninth round--so he would have kept all $30 to himself on the eighth round. At least, most of the ones I know would have, although maybe a sample consisting mostly of journalists isn't entirely representative."
These tests would be an excellent way to see the norms inside each profession. This sort of attitude is the same one routinely lambasted by the press, but in the context of business people. If the CEO of a company had said that he'd be a heartless capitalist. But it turns out that he's not heartless, the reporter is just jealous.
How about that, folks?
Wait, what kind of juice is it?
In Soviet Russia, the asses obsess about you!
I, for one, welcome our new ass-obsessed overlords.
What did I miss?
If Da*l McB*ide would be used as a test subject, the screen would only read "PLEASE INSERT BRAIN"...
a monkey that just had a couple of drinks? That would make the hind quarters look even better!
Lately I've been wondering about roulette. People have cheated with machines, timing the spin, speed of the ball, and beating the odds. Why can't a person do what the machine does?
A makes the most money by offering one dollar to B, keeping nine for himself, and B should accept it, because one dollar is better than none.
But fails to mention that B has exactly the same power and motive as A does. When you understand this, you understand why people tend to walk away with $5 each. There is nothing irrational about it.
Only a lack of reasoning can make the situation go any other way. People in the room might not have enough time to articulate the situation, or be allowed to by the rules, but they know it instinctively. Given time and intelligence, they can articulate their relative positions and come to the reasonable conclusion. Anything less is unreasonable and insulting. People will take a bad offer from a computer because they know it's stupid. They will spite a bully hoping that the bully might learn a lesson but also knowing the bully is stupid.
The reporter did not spend much time thinking about this, or was talking to one first rate con man of a researcher.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Which is why I think that certain types of drugs should be prohibited by law to the general population.
Go ask an addict of one of those drugs - NOTHING else matters, but the next hit. Sure you could keep giving drugs to them so they have a semblance of function, but their brains have been _damaged_.
I wonder what they'd pick if you give them a choice between getting the drug and the next high, and then after that _death_ vs not getting the drug forever.
"And with good reason: human females, almost uniquely among animals, conceal when they're fertile."
Interesting theory, but direct experience and a little recent research claim otherwise.
Actually a good body of older research also points to signs that human females are likely to be more aggressive in pursuing a mating partner during estrus.
Start talking to some female friends (yes, this often requires we actually leave our desks - 'HotChik69' on that chat room window is probably an obese 40-something male). Adequate empirical data is much better than the interesting yet purely theoretical musings of Anthropology PhDs.
Though most folks recall Jonathan Edwards once preaching of spiders dangling over the maw of hell, his most significant writing was philosophical particularly on the topic of Free Will.
Jonathan Edwards said that Free Will consists of the mind choosing that which it finds most pleasing or agreeable based on what it knows at that moment. I think considerations like this drove Soren Kierkegaard mad choosing to make himself miserable because it pleased him to exercize his will so.
It would be interesting to know what this continent's most thoughtful Calvinist would think about these experiments. I think he'd be pleased, but he might differ on the interpretations of the findings.
Actually, it does explain why so many men stay faithful to their wives after child-bearing years. It states that there was an evolutionary advantage for men to stick around women even if he wasn't sure she was fertile. Sexual attraction and emotional bonding evolved to keep the man around. It grew to such strength that it can keep a man around even if the woman is no longer fertile. You can't deny that men have a tendency to be attracted to young, fertile appearing women. But it is because of evolution that all men aren't dumping their women after menopause.
The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
Y'know, the one thing that I could never understand about research of this type (trying to figure out what a consumer/person wants) is that the same people performing the research are consumers themselves. If they all just sat down and discussed their buying wants and habits, they'd have a huge body of work to publish from. I guess this is just further proof of my belief that man will always look to the outside to try to understand himself.
"The lottery is just a way to punish people who are bad at math"
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
Damn! And to think, I thought she loved me. Turns out she just wanted my Genes.
Call me self centered and bitter, with too many un illuminating visits to the shrink. You may also say I am a dreamer, but I am not the only one. etc.
Hey what the heck, I may even read the article when I get home from work.
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
Studies have been done showing that women preferred more "feminine" features in a male when they weren't fertile. When they were fertile, they suddenly preferred more masculine features.
The general consensus was that the more emasculated males were friendlier and more likely to stick around.
Pheremones, and behaviour.
... there is no quantity of juice sufficient to get a male monkey to look away from the hindquarters of a female in estrus.'
Depends on the kind of juice.
--
make install -not war
I don't do pr0nmags. They annoy the hell out of me, honeslty. The cheaper ones are just nasty, the "upper class" ones are totally airbrushed, I'm not down with the variety of models, and at the bottom line... pictures don't breathe. They don't sweat. There's no smell.
There is, in short, no fucking point. It's a waste of my time.
So yeah, if I'm going to read a magazine, it's going to be one that's focused on something of use to me, like technology. Something I can read and put down without feeling irritated, pissed off, or ready to kill the first advertising monkey I meet.
Why are divorces so expensive?
Because they're worth it.
--
make install -not war
Well, nice job people. You take a perfectly relavent joke (read: study of the mind) and mod it offtopic. Remember, "offtopic" isn't for "I didn't like that joke, because I work for the xxAA," it's for "this joke has no relevance to the subject at hand." Did you people even read the post or just the subject?
dont we already have politicians who look like as* AND are popular?
*snores and rolls over*