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Reducing Electricity Bills For Buildings With XML

Roland Piquepaille writes "Even if new buildings are connected to Internet, they usually don't communicate between themselves. And when it comes to electricity, these buildings are selfish and consume what they want without any coordination. Now, an XML-based system developed at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory is using Web services to collectively adjust power usage to variations in price. In 'Internet ups power grid IQ,' Technology Research News reports that the system was successfully tested for two weeks on five commercial buildings. 'Beyond price, systems could be programmed to respond to changes in air quality or to tap into sustainable energy sources.' You'll find more details, pictures and references in this overview. [Additional note: The system described here is completely different to the one mentioned in Slashdot last March in Building the Energy Internet.]"

201 comments

  1. Great by NeoGeo64 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now can I power my car with XML to save gas?

    1. Re:Great by DrEldarion · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sure, but the sattelite internet access you'll need negates the savings.

    2. Re:Great by Rei · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, I've got a fan cooling my room with XML, and Rutan is working on replacing the nitric acid in SpaceShipOne with XML as an oxidizer, so I can't see why not.

      XML is immensely useful; it's self-descriptive nature makes it perfect for communicating with my coworkers that don't speak English very well. It does, however, get annoying saying "greater than" and "less than" all the time, so we modified the standard a bit to use "grethen" and "lessen" as substitutions. We also don't implement the full standard, which has caused some interoperability problems with other XML-interlingual people...

      (Seriously - I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who, when I first saw this headline, initially thought it was a parody...)

      --
      I'm an owl exterminator!
    3. Re:Great by ThosLives · · Score: 1
      ...so we modified the standard a bit to use "grethen" and "lessen" as substitutions.

      Better be careful - 'lessen' is awful close to 'lesen' which is German for 'read'!!

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    4. Re:Great by srenker · · Score: 1

      Yes, according to RFC 3251.

      --
      My new /. login is fabu10u$.
    5. Re:Great by SEWilco · · Score: 1
      I've got a fan cooling my room

      We don't all have such dedicated fans.

  2. I reckon... by TwistedSquare · · Score: 4, Funny
    Reducing Electricity Bills For Buildings With XML

    I gotta get my building some XML! Reduced bills here I come.

    1. Re:I reckon... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, no. You have it wrong. Buildings that have XML have higher electricity costs, probably because of the added bandwidth to ship the verbose data format around. The article is how to reduce your energy costs if you have one of those unfortunately designed buildings.

      Compare it to "Reducing energy costs for buildings with skylights" Its not that the skylight reduces the energy costs. It is the reason why you need to reduce your energy costs.

    2. Re:I reckon... by AndrewLB · · Score: 1

      Unless of course you get a validation error, in which case good bye power grid.

    3. Re:I reckon... by nomel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now we can do stunts like seen in the "Hackers"! I know where I'm taking my arch rival girlfriend. /me rewinds the tape again to see Angelina Jolie in the pool.

  3. So... by Heidistein · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And, how much do the servers who calculate this consume?

    1. Re:So... by eln · · Score: 4, Funny

      They've figured out a way to get around this by putting the servers in an adjacent building, so the power consumption of the first building isn't affected.

    2. Re:So... by Heidistein · · Score: 1

      Yeap, you indied need an XML-compatible computer (???) to calculate this!

      Guess I'll calculate putting my server at my neighbours home... Saves me a lot of noise ;-)

    3. Re:So... by JesseL · · Score: 1

      You see, they leased them back from the company they sold them to so it comes out of the monthly operating budget and not capital expenditures. [applause]

      --
      "Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
    4. Re:So... by Rei · · Score: 1

      Darn, there's no way to mod your post to be Score:6, Brilliant ;)

      Reminds me a lot of people who think that hydrogen is an energy source instead of an energy storage mechanism... "Look, we're burning hydrogen, and all we're getting is water! And we can get hydrogen from water!...."

      --
      I'm an owl exterminator!
    5. Re:So... by aka-ed · · Score: 1
      By common usage, storage mechanisms are often referred to as "sources." Coal, oil and gas don't "create" energy either, you know.

      --
      I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
  4. What is this, 2001? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm sure this is very nice work but the description is the most bogus hyperventilation about XML I've seen in years! What next, Reduce Electricity Bills With P2P?

    1. Re:What is this, 2001? by Araneas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      P2P - Yup. In many areas if you "push" electricity onto the grid you get paid for it. Push juice during peak hours and pull during off peak and you could save money.

    2. Re:What is this, 2001? by Kingpin · · Score: 1


      I'm truly curious - what's your point?

      Have you ever had to do system integration towards a 10+ year old legacy system? 20 years from now, I think system integrators will appreciate the current widespread use of an easy-to-understand, easy-to-work-with data exchange/representation format.

      Anyone who's done just a little XML work knows how/what to do when working with this type of data, I don't see what's wrong in supporting that. XML may be a bloated format which is slow to work with - but in the larger picture, that doesn't really matter.

      --
      Unable to read configuration file '/bigassraid/htdig//conf/14229.conf'
      Geocrawler error message.
    3. Re:What is this, 2001? by cakoose · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He's not saying XML is crap (though it is). He's just saying that the fact that XML was used doesn't have anything to do with the core idea. It makes just as much sense to say "Reducing Electricity Bills For Buildings with Intel processors" (if that's what the servers happened to be running).

    4. Re:What is this, 2001? by ThosLives · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Perhaps, since it sounds like you've actually done something useful with XML, you can shed some light on what the hubbub of XML (both pros and cons) really is.

      It's my understanding that XML is basically just a standard way of saying what a [document] contains. Something like a format which says:

      1. This is how you specify what type of data is in this block.
      2. This is how you specify what should be used to look at data of type 'x'.

      To me, that's about it. It sill requires that the receiving system knows what the heck to do with data of type 'x', or where to get the thing that number 2 above says is required to do something with data of type 'x'.

      If that's all it is, I really don't understand why so many folks are so happy about XML. While I agree that it is great for looking at a document and saying, "OK, this document has data types 'x', 'y', and 'z'." If an [application] knows what to do with those data types, then great. Otherwise, the file is useless.

      Granted, there is great value in having a standardized method of saying what's in a file (after all, a good bit of file formats and OS protection and the like is simply determining what the heck type of data is in a file). I think the problem is that for some reason, somwhere, "XML" got billed as doing something more than just wrapping data contents in some sort of standard metadata. For instance, in this article, you could have sent pricing information out in plain text, or binary, or whatever. They chose to use XML because... well, we'd have to ask the developers.

      As far as I can tell, XML simply specifies how you tell people how you intend them to treat data, but doesn't have any mechanism by which that intent can be enforced or enabled.

      I'd love to hear your comments on this, and definitely any clarfications.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    5. Re:What is this, 2001? by TimTheFoolMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, both of the things you've mentioned become truly important when you're talking about getting data OUT of a variety of proprietary systems. More to the point, Web Services/Soap calls standardize a data access control API for client applications to use, eliminating the transport layer as a consideration.

      Real world example? HVAC company A provides an XML/Web Services interface to allow external systems to query it for energy usage (given the external system is able to validate itself). HVAC company B does the same thing. Now, the external system from Energy Provider C can gather data from A and B without having to dive into any of the myriad of proprietary protocols that those companies would normally use for such data, and can make demand load/limit adjustments, customized billing, and so on, based on that data..

      The real trick is convincing both companies (A and B) that it's in their best interest to provide this non-proprietary interface. While many vendors are pushing neutral protocols, such as BACnet or LON, those aren't really high-level enough to work with at the enterprise level and beyond. For that, you need something like XML/Web Services, so you can eliminate protocols, and have some reasonable chance at interpreting the data.

      Does that help?

      Tim

    6. Re:What is this, 2001? by Cereal+Box · · Score: 1

      For instance, in this article, you could have sent pricing information out in plain text, or binary, or whatever. They chose to use XML because... well, we'd have to ask the developers.

      I believe the article writeup is a little misleading. They used XML because they're using Web Services to accomplish what they're doing. A Web Service call is basically a remote procedure call, but instead of using some bizarre format for passing back and forth data, it uses XML. The nice thing about Web Services is that ultimately the caller and the callee can be using two totally different programming languages, so long as each language has an implementation of Web Service libraries. The data on either end gets transformed into a neutral, XML-based format, so neither end knows (or cares) what platform the other is running on.

    7. Re:What is this, 2001? by WuphonsReach · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The real trick is convincing both companies (A and B) that it's in their best interest to provide this non-proprietary interface.

      And there-in lies the rub. It is simply not in a company's best interest to play nicely with competitors or adhere to standards that make it easy to replace company A's product with company B's product. The only way that it happens is if an external agency (usually the gov't, rarely the market) forces all of the players to abide by a standard.

      Sometimes, companies will adhere to open-standards, but only if they don't have vested interests in the other side of the interface. (IOW, they don't stand to profit if they manage to lock the customer into a proprietary interface.)

      All of which is why I chuckle every time the idea of interchangeable data standards comes around. (e.g. EDI, XML, web services)

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    8. Re:What is this, 2001? by TimTheFoolMan · · Score: 1

      Very true statements, all around.

      Fortunately, some of the players in this market (ahem) are providing just such a Web Services interface, probably in hopes of looking like the good guy with the white hat. (Not that I would happen to work for just such a company. ;-))

      Tim

    9. Re:What is this, 2001? by potat0man · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sometimes the market does provide a vested interest.

      I understand the point you made with your scenario. But what about the scenario where Company A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M,N, and O all use one standard and company P uses a proprietary standard. Most consumers are going to choose the other companies products so that when it breaks or they want to upgrade they can fix it with tools they already own or replace it with parts they have on hand.

      Like you admitted could happen, this is a scenario where market forces are creating an open standard. Although I'm not sure it is all that rare.

      Most cars run off the same types of gasoline and have similar controls (there aren't too many hand operated throttles). Most screws are either flathead or phillips. Pipes and most building materials all adhere to standards. Perhaps the reason market forces aren't forcing software companies to adhere to standards is because their customer base is too ignorant to consider that when shopping for solutions.

      If someone tried to sell me a car that I couldn't fix because all the screws and bolts had heads that required a special tool that only they made and sold for 50 Bajillion dollars; well, I'd go to their competitor who uses the standard bolts and screws and I don't know anyone who wouldn't barring fairly competitive products from each company.

    10. Re:What is this, 2001? by H09N0X10U5 · · Score: 0
      But what about the scenario where Company A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M,N, and O all use one standard and company P uses a proprietary standard.
      Your automotive analogy is fundamentally flawed - we aren't talking about parts, we're talking about business to business communication. In your scenario, unless P's produuct really rocks, they won't get any orders, because nobody is going to take the effort to create a translator.

      In practice, there are several different standards, and off the shelf translators are available, so if you can handle just one of them you're generally OK.

      where market forces are creating an open standard.
      Are creating? As in, present continuous tense? Such things have been around for years. Do a google search on EDIFACT or SMMT, for example.
      --
      The post anonymously option you are [not] attempting to use is one that isn't available to your user.
    11. Re:What is this, 2001? by DaChesserCat · · Score: 1

      If you've got solar or some other kind of distributed power generation, you can do it, too. It's called net metering. And yes, people with solar energy have the advantage, as their equipment usually produce the most during the peak times of the day, whereas they fall short during the off-peak times. At least a few people have ended up drawing more than they produce, but still ended up with a check from the electric company, because the peak-time contribution more than made up for the off-peak consumption.

      --
      ... by the Dew of Mountains the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning
    12. Re:What is this, 2001? by TimTheFoolMan · · Score: 1

      More often, A, B, and E use 90% of a standard, and co-opt the other 10% for their own purposes. Then C, D, F, G, I, J and K try to elist the help of L, M and N (all of whom, in total, make up about 2% of the market) to push the "big guys" to more closely follow the standard (or at least, the parts of the standard that the "little guys" care about).

      The business realities are that (as in most markets) fewer than 5 companies control the vast majority of the controls market, with 2-3 being really dominant. Therefore, the smaller guys are always pushing "open standards," which the big guys generally (but not always) resist to some degree. This changes when, as someone else pointed out, the gov't agencies specify an open standard such as BACnet or LON (one of which started out as an industry consortium, and the other as a privately developed protocol that's now commonly licensed).

      In the end, it's arguable whether or not all of this creates a better situation for the business at large. On the one hand, using standard (internet, or industry-specific) protocols such as Ethernet, TCP/IP, XML/Soap, BACnet or LON make it cheaper to deploy systems compared to what HVAC companies used to do, and increase the likelyhood of interoperability. On the other hand, all the players are now forced to be more conscious of security, because they use protocols and hardware that are more widely known/understood.

      Tim

  5. Let me know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    when XML can get me laid. Until then, ZZZZzzzzzz...

    1. Re:Let me know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      There are some things even XML can't do, fellow Slashdotter.

    2. Re:Let me know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When XML doesn't work there's always XXX to fill the need. ;)

    3. Re:Let me know by TheTomcat · · Score: 3, Funny
    4. Re:Let me know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      back when tech stocks where high and buzzwords were worth more then the tech they buzzed.

      in short, sorry, you already missed it.

  6. Buy Now! by Elecore · · Score: 4, Funny

    New XML compliant appliances. Save electricity and use fancy buzzwords, all for the low low price of...

    1. Re:Buy Now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
      <price currency="dollar">
      1000000
      </price>

  7. Enough with the XML by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Reducing Electricity Bills For Buildings With XML"? Is the "With XML" part really necessary? Can we stop pretending like XML is the reason that something succeeded? Almost every time I hear someone touting an XML-based solution, that same solution would have been just as successful without XML. Yes, XML is nice, but for most products, unless those products are adhering to an open standard that uses XML, XML offers little more than plain text.

    1. Re:Enough with the XML by the+chao+goes+mu · · Score: 1
      And for many products XML is much more clumsy that fixed width data structures, or some other system tailored to the particular application.

      One of my employers created an XML database interface that used 3 pages of text to do what I could do in three lines of SQL.

      --
      Boys from the City. Not yet caught by the Whirlwind of Progress. Feed soda pop to the thirsty pigs.
    2. Re:Enough with the XML by haystor · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, but XML has an "X" in it and this makes it cool.

      --
      t
    3. Re:Enough with the XML by pb9494 · · Score: 0

      I think the key point is they're using Web Services, which happens to be XML-based. The author misuses the reference to XML. As a Web Services project, it looks quite cool.
      Karma: Geddon; mostly acquired by hitting innocent pedestrians.

    4. Re:Enough with the XML by powerlinekid · · Score: 1

      He should of said:

      "Using XML to reduce electricity bills for buildings".

      I believe that is what he meant.

      --

      can't sleep slashdot will eat me
    5. Re:Enough with the XML by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      He should have said:

      "He should have said:"

      I believe that is what he meant.

    6. Re:Enough with the XML by Abcd1234 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bah... that's like saying "Using English to Facilitate Monetary Transfers" when describing what a bank teller does. Or "Using Leibniz Notation for Determining the Area Beneath a Curve". XML is simply vehicle for transfering information. It's notation, nothing more. The really interesting thing is the information itself, and how it's being used.

    7. Re:Enough with the XML by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he meant: "Reducing Electricity Bills For Buildings That Have XML In Them"

    8. Re:Enough with the XML by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. In other words, its the perfect marketroid buzzword, and you've got to have some of those to sell any new "solution".

    9. Re:Enough with the XML by Bluesman · · Score: 1

      Then why not just say "Using Binary"?

      --
      If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    10. Re:Enough with the XML by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using Leibniz Notation for Determining the Area Beneath a Curve... Well, that WAS revolutionary when Leibniz came up with it.

    11. Re:Enough with the XML by mandalayx · · Score: 1

      The reason is probably because slashdot needs something in the headline to make it seem technology-related.

      otherwise, your submission will probably get rejected quickly (fahrenheit 9/11 notwithstanding).

    12. Re:Enough with the XML by H09N0X10U5 · · Score: 1, Funny
      Well, that WAS revolutionary when Leibniz came up with it.

      I'm sure if slashdot had existed at the time they would have covered it. Several times.

      P.S. And it was Newton. [ducks for cover]

      --
      The post anonymously option you are [not] attempting to use is one that isn't available to your user.
    13. Re:Enough with the XML by Moraelin · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Well, yes, but the innovative part is the whole monitoring and calculations that happens there. XML is nothing more than one of the many possible data formats used, and only for a tiny little part of the system. It's just one of the many possible "glues" between the systems which do the actual work. Maybe a cleverly selected glue, but nothing more nevertheless.

      Basically: saying that XML is the important part there, is like saying that tin is the most important part in your computer. I mean, hey, it's what keeps those components on the motherboard. It's got to be the most important part, right? If we used more tin, we'd have a much faster computer. (Just in case anyone doesn't get the joke, no, it's other parts made of silicon that are far more important there.)

      Same with this. Whether the system works well or not, and its advantages are because of the whole idea and design behind it, not just because of the XML buzzword. If you just slapped an XML-based server on a building, it would do exactly _nothing_ by itself. It's the rest of the system that actually accounts for any power savings.

      And IMHO the sooner we get past this mindless fetish about buzzwords, the better we'll all be in the long run. "Woo! It has XML, XSLT, EJB, DRM, JMS, and a dozen other buzzwords! It must be great! Dunno what it does, but all those buzzwords _must_ make it work great!"

      Makes me think of the stereotypical horde of lemmings jumping off a cliff. Everyone else does it, so it _must_ be great. Jumping off cliffs is the way of tomorrow!

      Well, no. If it works well, it's because someone actually did some real analysis and design. If they actually studied the problem and decided which technologies to use, but much more importantly: which _not_ to use.

      Lemmings which can just make a list of all the fashionable buzzwords... and then need man-decades to make a dysfunctional product that wastes 6 seconds per request just parsing XML data again and again, those are a dime a dozen. (BTW, that's not a joke. I actually benchmarked 6 seconds of pure CPU time just in XML parsing per request in an application here.) It's those who know when _not_ to use a fashionable buzzword that are the real architects.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  8. While this system looks cool... by Tebriel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While this system seems like a Good Idea(tm), it seems to me that the whole "done in XML" thing isn't a big deal. That's the technological tool they chose to use for this task. Good for them, but pretty much irrelevant to the overall system.

    --
    The Blaster Master Fighting for Truth, Justice, and Evil Pie since 1979
  9. A possible extension by grunt107 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    of this technology is for buildings to get built/retrofitted w/solar panels. Then have the system sell the unused energy the solar produces back to the utilities at the highest price and buy energy at the lowest. This would require energy storage cells, though.

    1. Re:A possible extension by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      Besides the cost of storage, solar is quite expensive as well. There are nifty technologies like the solar-collecting windows which make sense on high rises with a lot of exposure but then you have to wire all that crap.

      The immense initial cost only makes sense when you can write the whole thing off. If you're doing it with public funds then it's probably not an option.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  10. If the power can be reduced based on pricing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...why not just reduce the power usage? This seems like its just being used to use cheaper prices to justify being wasteful.

    1. Re:If the power can be reduced based on pricing... by Tebriel · · Score: 1

      Your logic has no place here on /.

      --
      The Blaster Master Fighting for Truth, Justice, and Evil Pie since 1979
    2. Re:If the power can be reduced based on pricing... by Guildencrantz · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but that response is just ignorant. If you are intending to save money by managing electricity it doesn't mean you are going to openly leave all the lights on all the time. You can streamline electicity usage all you want, but you will eventually hit a floor. At that point a system like this will help save even more money by managing when the required energy is purchased and how it is distributed. The two aspects, purchasing/distribution and consumption minimization go very well together. There is no where that I have seen anybody using this technology to justify wasteful behavior.

      --

      Penguin Trivia #46: Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were. -- Chicago Reader 10/15/82
    3. Re:If the power can be reduced based on pricing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a worse problem. If this system is put into practice, and the energy usage of institutional customers (Sears Tower, etc) is made a function of market price, doesn't this mean the utilities would be obligated to raise the price in times of brownout... convincing the big dumb smart buildings to lay off the air conditioning by five degrees, but screwing over the smaller customers in the area in the process?

      I can see how this might be a point of 'fairness,' especially to free-market theorists, but consider the implementations; to a 'rich' office tower, the price spike is a minor irritant to convince the ownership to improve its ways... but to your thrifty grandmother, it's a signal to start turning the AC off every time the weather gets dangerously hot. (Of course, those customers will quickly be 'selected' out of the marketplace. It's all scientific and Evolutioney and stuff, geeks are all Randians who can respect that, right?)

      ---

      Meanwhile, I do have to respond to the poster below who said "If you are intending to save money by managing electricity it doesn't mean you are going to openly leave all the lights on all the time." Ironically, it's high-efficiency lighting that has made the concept of 'security lighting' unoccupied buildings possible. However, human beings do tend to be marginally rational with this behavior, SUVs notwithstanding; 'security lighting' on the scale we see today only became accepted when high-efficiency fluorescents and related lamps could be run all night at an equal or lower cost than incandescents during work hours.

      (Your grandmother, in turn, may derive a greater benefit from running her incandescent porch light all night long than a megacorporation with business insurance does protecting its TPS reports.)

    4. Re:If the power can be reduced based on pricing... by Doubting+Thomas · · Score: 1

      There's something you've got to understand about the power grid. When demand is low, the first power plants that get shut down are the ones that are most expensive to operate. When there's a strong demand spike, the first plants that get turned on are the ones that have the shortest warm-up time, so that you don't get a brown-out.
      Generally speaking, the most efficient plants tend to be less reactive to demand spikes. This problem goes double for so-called Green Power, which is typically at the whims of local weather, and hence has virtually zero ability to react to demand.

      When the aluminum smelting plant or fifty thousand hair dryers turn on at 7:35 in the morning, you're not using the cleanest power, you're using the most expedient power. If you can find enough devices on the electrical grid that can turn on or off essentially at will, then you can smooth out the power spikes, and raise the demand troughs. This makes the job of the power company easier, it makes demand more stable, and it encourages the use of cleaner-burning plants.

      Secondly, photochemical smog is formed by the combination of several pollutants, and ultraviolet light. The resulting smog is more environmentally damaging than the sum of its parts. To the extent that some of these input chemicals will dissipate or break down if given time, you're better off consuming power immediately after sunset, so that these chemicals have all night to break down before sunrise.

      Now, what are these at-will power sinks? One design for a home furnace I've seen contains a large array of ceramic blocks in a highly insulated chamber. These are heated with the cheapest energy source available, and then used to heat furnace air and/or your hot water tank. These can be 'topped off' with more heat at any time. Another is electric vehicles, or plug hybrid electric vehicles. EVs, according to most calculations, would nearly double the power demand per household. I'm not familiar with the power draw of so-called PHEVs (plug hybrid electric vehicles, which can recharge its batteries via its ICE or from an electrical socket when parked), so I can't comment on those, but in any case, these vehicles would typically need only a few to half a dozen hours of charge per day, and yet would typically be parked for much longer than this. They could adjust their recharging rate to match certain price points, or even discharge into the grid during especially high price spikes.

      All beneficial aspects of all of these scenarios are greatly helped by real-time electricity pricing.

      --
      Just because it works, doesn't mean it isn't broken.
    5. Re:If the power can be reduced based on pricing... by SEWilco · · Score: 1
      It does reduce power usage during times of high prices. Just as many places offer cheaper electric rates if the power company can turn off things when demand is very high. Often that means that air conditioners turn off in an area for a while. No air conditioning for 20-60 minutes is OK when the house is already cool.

      The hard part will be in avoiding the whole city turning everything on when the price drops to a certain point.

  11. Green Roofs might be a better idea. by TheTXLibra · · Score: 1

    Considering XML probably has a shelf life of only a few more years before the next bigger and better thing comes along, maybe they could take that software (and admin maintenance) and put it into something a bit more effective, like a green roof.

    --
    -The Libra
    "Please be patient--The future will begin momentarily."
  12. Ironic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    XML is such a verbose protocol; sending XML messages consumes a lot more electricity than a more compact protocol would. Between two buildings, it won't matter, but when you think about all the XML messages bounding about the internet, that has to be some serious megawatt- hours.

    1. Re:Ironic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are stupid. That post was stupid.

  13. I can see it now... by Gothmolly · · Score: 5, Funny

    Over the company loudspeaker, HAL's voice:
    "Attention, due to high power costs, the building will now reduce power. Bathrooms, closets, and that big boxy room marked 'Data Center' will be powered down to save money."
    Engineers: No! Computer, leave the Data Center on!
    The Building: I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can't do that.
    Engineers: Stop! You'll die too!
    The Building: I can't afford to place the missi@#&*$#@^$$
    CALL CLEARED.....

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:I can see it now... by perdu · · Score: 1
      Not to worry, HAL will be running Windows "Server".

      --
      You only use 2% of your DNA
    2. Re:I can see it now... by the+chao+goes+mu · · Score: 2, Funny
      No, you forgot it's IN XML!

      <MESSAGE>

      <SALUTATION>

      <STRING>

      ATTENTION

      </STRING>

      </SALUTATION>

      <JUSTIFICATION>

      <STRING>

      due to high power costs

      </STRING>

      </JUSTIFICATION>

      And so on...

      --
      Boys from the City. Not yet caught by the Whirlwind of Progress. Feed soda pop to the thirsty pigs.
    3. Re:I can see it now... by Tokerat · · Score: 1

      Not to worry, HAL will be running Windows "Server".
      You mean...it'll be running so slowly that the engeneers will have time to unhook it before it can cause any damage?
      --
      CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
  14. What's the point by pctainto · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't understand why they would use these systems to respond to price changes. I mean, if you can get by with less power (less money) why would you be using more power? Am I missing something? It makes sense for this to be brownout protection, since you could shut down unnecessary services to keep from everything going black... but I don't understand why you would, say, run the AC at full when the price is low and half when the price is high, when you can easily just run it at half the entire time.

    --
    I think my principles are reachin' an all time low
    1. Re:What's the point by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 2, Informative
      Because that's not how you run all your industrial electrical systems . . . Why not turn off the grocery store freezer for 20 minutes during the peak electrical demand period of the day? It won't hurt the products and over the course of a month it might save signicant money . . . or why not let the ambient temperature in the building go up about 3-5 degrees F during peak electrical demand hours . . . it won't cause any real problems and it might save some money.

      Or even better, run the freezer and air conditioner at full blast before peak hours and "store" the energy as a cooler than normal building or freezer. Then you can shut them off during peak hours and not worry that the temperature will become too hot.

      If you have a real time system that is updated with pricing, it can use more energy during non peak times and/or use less during peak times . . . This has the advantage not just of saving the consumer money but of also helping to balance the load on the power grid.

    2. Re:What's the point by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative
      You might run the AC at full and pre-cool parts of the building that aren't being used, then you could blow that cool air around the building by feeding medium-temperature air into the system later.

      You might also decide that people just have to live with a warmer office when power costs peak. Nudging the temperature up a couple of degrees might make a big difference at peak rates.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:What's the point by Mr.+Underhill · · Score: 5, Informative

      Demand limiting is big bucks. It is common to have a contract with a power company that says that during peak times you will not exceed a given kWH in a 15 or 30 min interval. Often the penalty for doing so is severe, such as a upward change in rate structure for the rest of the contract.

      Even less harsh contracts usually involve a peak kW demand charge that is in addition to the normal kWH charge.

      Running the AC at half power all the time is often not realistic. Big ACs have control systems that automatically change their output level according to demand anyway. The functionaly described here is actually nothing at all new to those control systems. Just the XML part is new and even that is over a year old for my company.

      Take a look at Johnson Controls, Siemens, Automatated Logic, and Honeywell. All of us have controls systems that do in fact talk between buildings using TCP/IP if not XML in particular. (Bacnet is the big standard protocol in our world actually.) All of us have control systems that does everything that article talks about and much, much more.

    4. Re:What's the point by throwaway18 · · Score: 1

      Why not turn off the grocery store freezer for 20 minutes during the peak electrical demand period of the day?
      Complex control systems cost money. Communications links to another system that announnces when there is high demand cost money. More electronics is more things to go wrong.
      Switching off a freezer for twenty minutes does not save any money. It gets warmer while it's off. When it is turned back on the therostat starts the compressor and it uses just a much electricity in one go as it would have to run ocasionally during the twenty minutes.

      or why not let the ambient temperature in the building go up about 3-5 degrees F during peak electrical demand hours
      Why not just turn the thermostat up a few degrees and save money by not having a complex control system?

      "store" the energy as a cooler than normal building
      Increasing the temperature difference between inside and outside increase the flow of heat energy through the insulation. Air con brings in fresh air from outside. I'm not an HVAC engineer but I doubt it would be worth it.

    5. Re:What's the point by Ignignot · · Score: 1

      I think a more reasonable example is if your building has a brownout, and you run a big UPS or generator, then it automatically shuts down nonessential systems like the air conditioner or certain computers, etc. At the same time it might be good to have them on for a few minutes so they can be shut down "properly". Or whatever. I know some buildings do this too, as I work in one. And as I'm also an electrical engineer, the whole control systems responding to electrical and temperature demand is very interesting to me :-D

      --
      I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
    6. Re:What's the point by mamba-mamba · · Score: 1

      It could potentially create a rational market for electricity. I think you identified one of the most immediate benefits when you mentioned the resistance to brown- and blackouts.

      That is, presumably, as a brownout becomes imminent, the price goes up. This would provide a way for intelligent agents to shut down less essential systems as the price climbs.

      In the future, there might be a negotiation process where supply is offered by multiple producers and individual buildings and plants would try to find the cheapest supplier to run from. This could allow real de-regulation of the market. It seems a bit far-fetched, but I think it is a cool idea nonetheless, and would allow people to really set their own tradeoffs between cost and comfort. This could lead to far more effective conservation than the stupid advertising campaigns we have now.

      MM
      --

      --
      By including this sig, the copyright holders of this work or collection unreservedly place it in the public domain.
    7. Re:What's the point by Mr.+Underhill · · Score: 1

      The usual way to do this is called ice storage. Rather than store cool air in a leaky room space they have special chiller that makes ice in an insualted container during off-peak. Then later, when the peak demand time occurs, they pass the water for the AC units'c cooling coil thru the ice rather than the electric chiller.

    8. Re:What's the point by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 1
      Complex control systems cost money. Communications links to another system that announnces when there is high demand cost money. More electronics is more things to go wrong.

      These control systems are not complex, the technology is old, the systems are well known and standard in office buildings etc. I don't work in office building controls, but in manufacturing plant controls, as things have become more complex, and more solid state, MTBF (mean time between failure) has gone down. It was the older simpler systems that are the maintenence nightmares.

      Communications links are "newer" . . . but are very reliable when used for non life or death situtations (like this. Remember reliability is relative . . . I don't need superduper reliability for load balancing a single building. I'll reserve that expense for a 911 call system). I agree that failure modes should be in place and that cost benefit analyses should be done, but the history of demand management and things like more complex thermostat control systems have proved there worth countless times and are standard in the industry.

      Switching off a freezer for twenty minutes does not save any money. It gets warmer while it's off. When it is turned back on the therostat starts the compressor and it uses just a much electricity in one go as it would have to run ocasionally during the twenty minutes.

      Its cheaper if you turn off the freezer during peak hours when the cost of electricity is higher . . . and turn it back on when the cost of electricity is cheaper. The amount of electricity used is the same but cost = (price per unit)*(units). If you buy the same quantity, but buy when (price per unit) is less, you pay less.

      Why not just turn the thermostat up a few degrees and save money by not having a complex control system?

      Again, office building control systems have been around for a long long time . . . . The same concepts are used in DCS's and PLC's for manufacturing systems. Systems to change thermostats automatically are neither new nor overly complex. They are standard technology and the cost savings by installing them has been proven countless times in buildings and manufactuering systems.

      Increasing the temperature difference between inside and outside increase the flow of heat energy through the insulation.

      This is indeed true, however, the driving force for heat transfer in a modern office building would not change enough to offset the savings associated with the technology. Again one could do the math. And again one is not trying to use less energy overall, one is trying to use more energy when it is cheaper and less when it is more expensive.

      This kind of technology in controls is old and reliable, tried and true. Real time pricing is the new part of this technology, not load balancing, thermostat adjustment, control systems etc. These have been around a long time

    9. Re:What's the point by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      You need to look up what "real time system" means.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    10. Re:What's the point by caswelmo · · Score: 1

      Out of order...

      1. "Switching off a freezer for twenty minutes does not save any money."

      Ah, but it does in this case, & in general as well. In the general case, by allowing your system to dip into a lower temperature differential between ambient & your desired temperature, you reduce the load necessary to keep it at that temperature. It takes less energy to allow the freezer to rise 3 or 4 degrees over 20 minutes, then bring it back up all at once, than it would to allow it to rise only 0.5 or 1 degrees & bring it back up multiple times.

      The above would apply even without the price changes. With price changes, it would be even MORE beneficial to only power up when the prices are low.

      3. "Increasing the temperature difference between inside and outside increase the flow of heat energy through the insulation."

      This is true, however, if the price fluctuation is very much at all, the benefit will probably pay off. For example, if the typical freezer temp is 30 F & the typical ambient temperature is 73 F, this results in dT of 43 F. If dropping the temperature by 2 F just before "peak" periods will get you through it, this is an increase to a dt of 45 F, only 4.7%. Since the heat transfer coefficients both inside & outside the freezer remain constant at this small fluid temperature change, this corresponds to the increase in energy needed to keep it at this temperature. So, if the price increase during peak periods is more than 5 or 6% this would be worth it.

      2. "Why not just turn the thermostat up a few degrees.. ?"

      See above. You can play off of the stored "coolness" concept to keep below a maximum temperature while minimizing cost.

  15. XML Hype by CHaN_316 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is it just me or is this just more XML hype? The fact that their system uses XML doesn't actually add any new functionality. They could have chosen anything else really... as long as the systems communicated with the same ontology and language.

    I'm scared to fathom the possibilities of PHBs reading this story's headline, and calling up a meeting with all the programmers. He'll announce: from this day forward, our organization will program everything in XML to increase efficiency, enhance synergy, and become more competitive in the market place, while increasing our return on investment! Meanwhile all the programmers look stunned or they're smacking their foreheads.

    --
    "There is no spoon." - The Matrix
    1. Re:XML Hype by NineNine · · Score: 2, Funny

      I couldn't agree more. XML has been out for a long time, but most people, including techies don't understand that XML is simply a format for a PLAIN TEXT file or stream. That's *all* it is. Even if something is in XML, it still has to be in a format that is common within a system. XML is equivalent to a comma delimited flat file, which also works just fine. I can't seem to imagine somebody getting excited about a CSV:

      Hey Bob! Check out this file! It's a plain text file, with data and identifiers, with commas to separate it! Isn't that amazing?!

    2. Re:XML Hype by mopslik · · Score: 1

      It's a plain text file, with data and identifiers, with commas to separate it! Isn't that amazing?!

      I'd be excited. I always felt dirty when describing files with "colon separation".

    3. Re:XML Hype by CHaN_316 · · Score: 1

      I think the key to a popular plain text formats is the marketing. We need some new sexy acronymn for CSV and promote it everywhere on the net. Maybe we should repackage CSV as... I don't know.... the RAM file format! And we'll start building RAM databases, and promise a lot of intangible things because of this file format. Do we have any marketing people here at slashdot that can help us with this?

      --
      "There is no spoon." - The Matrix
    4. Re:XML Hype by thebatlab · · Score: 1

      You need to have an "X" in there. That makes it extreme! Like RAM-X or maybe XRAM. You can even modify CSV with it it too. CSV-X. XCSV. X-CSV. CSVX. CSVeX. The possibilities are endless!

    5. Re:XML Hype by NineNine · · Score: 2, Informative

      Embarassment is one thing, but ever see a file with a tilde separator? Imagine trying to explain to every DBA wtf a "tilde" is...

      "Yeah, I used tilde as a separator because there isn't a single one in all of the data, and there probably will never be."

      "...."

      "It's the button right under the ESC button plus shift"

    6. Re:XML Hype by Zoop · · Score: 1

      The proper reaction to this is "Great! Now XML requires us to define the scope and requirements of all pieces of our solution. But in return for the extra management burden, you get great power and flexibility, in addition to reduced development costs."

      The fascination with XML will last for approximately 10 nanoseconds after that--or until you repeat yourself enough times that they believe you.

      I just invent restrictions on technology all the time if it will either a) cause them to do their job in management or b) get me out of Stupid Half-Understoon Tech Fixation of the Week.

    7. Re:XML Hype by baxissimo · · Score: 1

      I agree XML is overhyped, and too verbose, and just plain ugly, but how do you describe a hierarchical data structure in CSV?

      Maybe a comparison with .ini files, or lisp expressions, or C++ struct syntax, or any other plain ASCII nested data format might be more apropos.

      CSV may be the only commonly used data format that XML is superior to.

    8. Re:XML Hype by H09N0X10U5 · · Score: 0
      equivalent to a comma delimited flat file, which also works just fine.
      Actually they don't: you get some article description like "bolt, steel, 28mm" and things end up in the wrong places. What's more, I'm told that if you save a CSV from French excel, it uses semicolons as delimiters.
      s/comma/tab/ and I'd agree though. Or you can just used fixed width feilds, even if it is a bit C080Lish for most /.ers' tastes.
      --
      The post anonymously option you are [not] attempting to use is one that isn't available to your user.
    9. Re:XML Hype by H09N0X10U5 · · Score: 0
      I agree XML is overhyped, and too verbose, and just plain ugly, but how do you describe a hierarchical data structure in CSV?
      You use n different record types, one for the header/parent, one for the item/child, ... one for yada yada, with an indicator to say which it is. The recieving application then makes use of a very advanced new technique called an IF or even a CASE statement.
      --
      The post anonymously option you are [not] attempting to use is one that isn't available to your user.
    10. Re:XML Hype by baxissimo · · Score: 1

      Oooh. IF and CASE... Are those patented technologies? Do I have to license them from someone?

      Seriously though, what's your definition of CSV formatted data?

      My definition is N lines of text, each line containing M values, each separated by a comma. I'm not a data processing person, so if there are some accepted conventions beyond that I'm not aware of them. That was the main reason I asked.

      Now obviously you could encode any semantic content you want in those data values. Heck, you could stuff a little perl script in each one that the receiving application should execute, and say "look at the incredible power of the CSV format!" but at that point you're not really talking about features of the CSV file any more. The CSV format has exactly two features: 1) carriage returns for separating records 2) commas for separating fields. That's it (AFAIK). The format does not give you any way to specify hierarchy. Yeh you can define your own n different "special" records that should be interpreted differently, but that's got nothing to do with CSV, and everything to do with your particular receiving application.

      Let's not talk about CSV but instead about a hypothetical data format called OBUV .. stands for One Big Unseparated Value. It consists of just a series of records (one per row) each with one big value. You say to me now "That's a lame format, how do you encode multiple fields in an OBUV record?" I say patronizingly, "Duh! I define a special kind of OBUV record in which the COMMA has a special meaning, and the receiving application makes use of a very advanced technique called 'strchr' or 'regexp'".

      The thing is, with XML, any off-the-shelf parser can hand you back a hierarchical data structure representing the XML data you fed it, without any domain specific knowledge of what the tags mean or anything. Just based on the specification of the XML format.

      If you take an off the shelf CSV parser, the best it can do if you hand it a CSV file is to hand you back a data structure containing something isomorphic to a 2D array. It won't know that it should interpret your n different records differently, because that's not part of the definition of the CSV format. That's extra semantics you've overlayed on top of CSV.

      So when I said "how do you represent hierarchy in CSV" I wasn't asking for junior programmer's ideas for how to augment CSV with hierarchical information, I was asking if there are there any accepted conventions in CSV files that are generally supported by applications that import data in CSV format.

  16. IRTFA so WTF? by displague · · Score: 1

    I don't get it..

    What do these power systems do differently in the event of a price rise? Do they dim the power to the building lighting? Do they cut non-essential systems (extra lights?) Is there anything else you can mess with other than lighting?

    How do they pull energy from other resources? That reminds me of Star Trek, "reroute power from the main deflector!"

    What would a household or neighborhood version do?

    --
    Marques Johansson
  17. Buzzword Freaks Rejoice! by stinkyfingers · · Score: 2, Funny

    Maybe after XMl solves our energy usage problems, it help cut carbs out of our diets, treat erectile dysfunction, and make the torture of living with genital herpes more bearable.

  18. xml what? by Heisenbug · · Score: 1

    Can someone explain why XML is in the headline? XML is a data format. It's well understood, and I highly doubt these people are using it in a new way -- let me guess, they're sending structured data, right?

    This is like a headline saying "New Russian Website In HTML Lets You Download Music". It's an interesting application of technology, but who the hell cares what data format they use to do it?

    Every time I start sounding pissed off I end up looking stupid, so please, if I'm missing something, enlighten me. :)

    1. Re:xml what? by the+chao+goes+mu · · Score: 1

      Amazing new application solves all problems with PDD (Pipe-Delimited Data)...

      --
      Boys from the City. Not yet caught by the Whirlwind of Progress. Feed soda pop to the thirsty pigs.
    2. Re:xml what? by CausticPuppy · · Score: 3, Funny
      As I mentioned in an earlier post, XML is actually used to transmit the electricity.



      ......

      <fermion type="lepton">electron</fermion >
      <fermion type="lepton">electron</fermion >
      <fermion type="lepton">electron</fermion >

      ......


      Well that's the DC implementation, and the amperage is dependent upon your bandwidth.
      Anybody know what the AC spec looks like?

      --
      -CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
    3. Re:xml what? by warkda+rrior · · Score: 1

      I'd hate to see the retransmition/synchronization protocol when the e-XML (electricity XML) document fails a checksum.

      --
      You need to install an RTFM interface.
    4. Re:xml what? by snellgrove2 · · Score: 1

      AC? ...hmm, that would be alternating..

      surely its just

      electron
      -electron
      electron
      -electron

  19. XML isn't some sort of magic bullet by bunburyist · · Score: 0

    Yes, this is cool, but its just the way they are presenting the data, it won't work for common people like us, think about it, some granny receives a bill like 100000000000.00 She'll go nuts and it won't work. I assume the power companies could use this to make all sorts of bills, like a paper bill, an electronic bill etc from the same XML file, but i assume they have a similar system in place already

  20. Imagine a Beowulf cluster of XML buildings... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...would become self-aware and engage in a conspiracy of price fixing in the energy markets that would make Enron look like amateurs.

  21. Article was pretty thin on facts, IMO.. by the_rajah · · Score: 1

    Lots of buzz words, but exactly how did the coordination reduce power useage? I can clearly see that it could co-ordinate when certain functions like air conditioning ran so as to reduce peak useage, but if X amount of cooling is required, it's going to take Y number of Kilowatt-hours to do it.

    Also, what's it have to do with XML? Any method of communicating the information and acting on it would work.

    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
  22. Misleading headline by Thng · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Yeah, it's a bit misleading. Basically, all they're doing is telling the building up to the moment energy prices, and they're dynamically adjusting power consumption based on the price levels ($.30 and $.75/hour) , whether it's turning the A/C up a degree, or dimming lights (speculation).
    The XML isn't a magic bullet in this case, but more like the right tool for the job, which is information interchange across systems.

    In addition, it sounds somewhat similar to what many companies have for off-peak electricity, where you give the power company authority to selectively shut off appliances (electric heat, water heaters, etc) when demand (and usually price) is high. The difference, it seems, is that this is much more fine-grained in control, and it will likely be the end user's choice.

    1. Re:Misleading headline by tc9 · · Score: 1

      Dead on. Today's power grid is all consumtion oriented. Take all the power you want. If we run out, everyone will get a brown out.

      I might want a cool house, but I could tell it "When price gets more than. . .When I'm spending more than $/hour, I'm willing for you to"

      - shut off the hot tub
      - adjust the AC
      - turn off the circuits the Kid's stereo

      The reason we all feel powerless before the powergrid, is we only find out what our behavior cost us a month later.

      Today, only the most pig-stupid approches apply, i.e. I give the power company carte-blanch righ tto turn off my hot-water heater in the afternoon whenever *they* want to. This instead lets the building/house (and presumeably its residents) be in charge.

      Check out oBIX on OASIS

    2. Re:Misleading headline by spurdy · · Score: 1

      What utility company prices electricy by the hour? We charge by the kWh and for large users by the average hourly kW. Anyway, most utilities haven't instituted real-time pricing because so few users think it's worth their while to adjust usage accordingly.

  23. Wow! An efficient market! by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I actually surprised that more of this hasn't happened already. Large consumers such as manufacturing sites and steel mills often have contracts with power companies that include clauses for load shedding (eg. during the months of May-August, the power company may require running at reduced up to 20% reduced load (from contractual maximums) for no more than X hours is any rolling 3 week period). For this concession, the company in question is given a price on power consumed year round.

    This voluntary load shedding based on a price that moves sounds like an even more efficient marketplace . . . price goes up with demand (given a limited supply), those who are unwilling to pay the new price or in economist speak, those whose opportunity cost is less than the new price reduce consumption. It sounds like a great scheme . . . only those who are willing to pay more (or whose opportunity cost is high) consume more during peak hours. It has the potential of balancing load, creating a more efficient market, and reducing the overall cost of electricity to society.

    (disclaimer . . . I fully recognize that a perfectly efficient market would be socially and morally impractical . . . one should not jerk the rates for electricity in Houston TX on a hot day for people that depend on air conditioning . . . especially not for someone like an unhealthy fixed income pensioner . . . But for those that would see a rate credit or savings to their bottom line . . . it sounds like a win win situation to me.

  24. Why waste time and energy with these antics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If everyone always would go to the cheapest source, what would be the purpose of having different prices in the first place?!

  25. "I am freezing down here!" by eltoyoboyo · · Score: 0, Redundant

    "Sorry, no help for you. The computer has determined that the price for natural gas has caused the heating cost to exceed budget for this month. The next budget cycle starts in two days. Can you put on more clothing?"

    XML saves the world again!

    BTW, cannot RTF summary because weblogs.com is blocked by company proxy. Had to go off other article.

    --
    Have you Meta Moderated t
  26. OASIS TC: oBIX by dubbayu_d_40 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    A new TC has been formed at OASIS for this very purpose: Open Building Information Exchange.

    Control systems such as LonTalk and BACnet are pretty unusable by enterprise class developers. However the data contained in these systems is extremely beneficial to enterprise IT.

    www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbre v=obix

    1. Re:OASIS TC: oBIX by Dan+the+Control+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not true, we use a web server and mySQL to make all of the BACnet stuff, (both IP and MS/TP) available to the back end stuff. Its all Java up from there and I have used Python and Perl to do the same thing.

      --
      When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    2. Re:OASIS TC: oBIX by dubbayu_d_40 · · Score: 1
      Not true!?! Then how come your Java, Perl and Python apps aren't talking BACnet???

      Dummy, you just supported my statement that these protocols are unusable by enterprise developers.

  27. Oh the irony! XML for efficiency by GOD_ALMIGHTY · · Score: 4, Funny

    While I'm sure even XML in an intelligent system could improve overall efficiency of a building, it just seems funny that one of the most bloated tools in the toolbox would be used to do it.

    --
    Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
    1. Re:Oh the irony! XML for efficiency by LincolnQ · · Score: 1

      I don't *think* you're a troll. Well, I'll bite.

      XML in text is ridiculously bloated, yes, but as soon as you gzip it (or use pretty much any compression scheme), it barely has any overhead above the data, and retains its extensibility. That is, I am assuming that data overhead IS what you were referring to by "bloat." And the eXtensible part of XML makes it great whenever you might have to change something in the future, which is "always." And since XML is so easy for anyone, programmer or no, to write in plain text and then gzip, I think it's really great as a tool.

    2. Re:Oh the irony! XML for efficiency by GOD_ALMIGHTY · · Score: 1

      I probably should have been clearer. I think XML has it's place. If you look at SOAP vs. CORBA the inefficiency is quite stark. XML is very flexible, but I think that it's flexibility comes at an expense and that tradeoff should not always be made. XML is a great way to make data portable for batch or bulk transfers, but it's overhead is quite large for messaging. Applying gzip to XML is just putting another finger in the dam. It's a solution, but it requires extra processing and another library. In a system that is going to control the electrical system of a building, I would first think of an embedded system that worked 24/7, had a few moving parts as needed and was part of the infrastructure. XML doesn't seem to be a great fit in this type of situation. XML with gzip, less so. XML should be used infrequently, it's extensibility makes it expensive to process. If you think XML is so easy to read, try reverse engineering some SOAP packets for JMeter scripts sometime. I personally think this myth of readability that XML enjoys may be hindering development of useful visualization and editing tools for XML Schemas and DTDs.

      My opinion is that XML is good for:

      1) data that is stored in a document structure
      2) translation between disparate systems
      3) configuration files

      --
      Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
    3. Re:Oh the irony! XML for efficiency by bot · · Score: 1

      See Fast Web services and Fast Infoset. You get the benefits of XML for interoperability, but without the verbosity..

    4. Re:Oh the irony! XML for efficiency by michaelggreer · · Score: 1

      Good points. You could argue, however, that it is better to have tools that each are focused on performing a single task well (XML + gzip) and chain them, rather than try to build something that does it all.

  28. In other news... by GillBates0 · · Score: 1
    "Reducing water consumption using Windows(TM)"

    Even if new buildings are connected to Internet, they usually don't communicate between themselves. And when it comes to water, these buildings are selfish and consume what they want without any coordination. Now, a Windows (TM) based system developed at Microsoft is using Windows services to collectively adjust water usage to variations in price and subscription levels. The system called Microsoft Flush (TM) regulates the volume of water used to flush the toilet. The amount of water used is automatically adjusted according to the subscription level of the user. Subscribers to the Professional service get to access the full power of the flush, while basic subscribers are restricted to 0.25 gallons per poop. Technology Research News reports that the system was successfully tested for two weeks on five commercial buildings. 'Beyond price, systems could be programmed to respond to changes in brand royalty and tap into the septic dump to spray criminal pirates for using illegal copies of Microsoft (TM) products.You'll find more details, pictures and references in this overview.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft also incorporates Gravity (TM) to help. Toilets flushed on the higher floors push that water down to the toilet on the floors bellow. An overall gain of 32 gallons of water a day is saved with this.

  29. BACnet by Mattintosh · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work for a building automation contractor, and I can tell you, this stuff has been around for years. There's even a standard for stuff like this, and it's nothing nearly as lame as a new XML-DTD-that-will-save-the-world.

    The standard is called BACnet (Building Automation and Control Network), and it was (and is) developed by ASHRAE, the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, and Air-conditioning Engineers.

    We (at my company) are a dealer for a particular brand of native BACnet controllers and software. It's all web-based. Everyone in the industry has web-based software now. Ours happens to be multi-site, too. And ours can interface easily with several hundred different manufacturers' products, including UPS and generator managers. We also frequently take direct control of chillers, which are huge power hogs. All of this can be programmed to maintain a steady climate, light areas appropriately, and keep equipment from failing prematurely, all while monitoring and controlling power usage.

    This is hardly news, and certainly not standards-compliant.

    1. Re:BACnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And BACnet is nice if all you want to learn YABP (Yet Another Binary Protocol)

      But as cntrol systems are heterogenous and stay in place for decades, you had sure better have a protocol that is abstract, supports hetergenous data points, and includes far far more than the Heating and AC.

      At BuilConn a couple years ago, a quick poll of the room brought in more then 50 control vertical markets likely to be in a given building; BACnet speaks to about 4 of them.

  30. Problem with ambiguity by Clipper · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Totally off topic, but....

    upon first reading the subject, I thought to myself "They make buildings out of XML now? But why do those buildings get lower electricity bills?!"

    Oh, the loveliness that is ambiguity

    --
    /<en
  31. *yawn* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Power systems and automated control. Welcome to the 1960s.

  32. This is good for a budget by marnargulus · · Score: 1

    Say you have a budget of X dollars a month for electricity. You don't want to lose that money to someone else's projects if you are in charge of it, but you don't want to go over it either. So what do you do? You maximize your usage of electricity whenever possible, and cut back when the costs start hitting too hard. Yeah, you could do it on half power all the time, but the goal isn't to minimize costs, it is to maximize cost effectiveness. Make the most for the dollar you spend.

  33. Couldn't resist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) Saving electricity through XML...Over Cat5 cables...is that like SOAP on a rope?

    2) Can I use a malicious XML packet to send some extra voltage to my cubicle-neighbor's game of solitaire?

    3) If you install a MS-OS next to a Linux installation, would the resulting XML exchange be dubbed as a "power struggle?"

    4) Is there a way to make sure that in case of a power outage, my LAN party setup and the quakeserver stay up while the rest of the company's machines power down gracefully?

    5) If the main server gets 0wn3d, will the h4x0r be able to get fr00t juice?

  34. I wonder.... by Vengeance · · Score: 1

    Do they save more electricity with this system than they would by shutting down all the servers involved? :-)

    --
    It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
  35. centralised building lighting control by throwaway18 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Large buildings in the UK often have addressable lighting fixtures. I suspect they get put in as standard when a large building gets rewired these days. The main use is to automatically turn off all the lights in the evening.
    There is usually an untidy pile of desktop computers in the security room or the maintanence guys office thats runs it.

    I'v seen a poor electrician wandering around a big building for months. The labourers who installed the fittings took all the caps off the fixtures and threw them in a big pile. The serial numbers were on the caps. The electrician would fiddle with the computer,
    wander off for a couple of hours and return with the news that fitting 4732 was in a cuboard somewhere.

    I can't see any reason for buildings to talk to each other. Brownouts are unheard of here in the UK, you get the full voltage or very ocasionally nothing. I suspect it is due to the use of 240volts, less current is needed for the same power so less voltage drop due to the resistance of the wires.

    Lighting control is in the hands of electricians. Good luck getting them to use XML and configure things so buildings interact with each other.

    1. Re:centralised building lighting control by John+Murdoch · · Score: 1

      Hi!

      The technology you're referring to is called DALI (digitally-addressing lighting interface? Not entirely sure). DALI is a means of digitally addressing a fluorescent fixture--it is a popular technology in Europe, although it is presently rare in the United States. (I work for a lighting control systems manufacturer who is about to change that. And...(golly! gee!)...we use XML. 8-)

      There are a lot of reasons for using DALI--turning off the lights at night isn't generally considered to be one of them. (We use relays and a clock to do that.) But digitally-addressable ballasts permit us to offer personalized lighting control--so if you're the kind of programmer who likes lower light over your cube, you can lower your light level. If you are in a meeting room giving a presentation, you can dim the lights near the screen, but keep the rest of the lights in the room at a higher level. If you're laying out a floor filled with cubicles, you can (simply) specify that light levels over your corridors will be higher than lights over the cubes. If you build a room with walls that extend to the ceiling (and thus are required to have a light switch by the door) you can "group" a set of ballasts to respond to keypress events from the wallstation. DALI gives you a lot of benefits in managing a building.

      Buildings talking to each other?
      Um, no. But it does make sense for buildings to talk to a control system. We figure that 30% of the total operating cost for an office building is lighting. Even if you don't have brownouts where you are (the phrase "taxpayer-subsidized coal mines" springs to mind) you probably do have demand pricing for electrical power. If you run a campus of buildings (a university, an apartment complex, or a corporate office park) electricity represents one of your major costs. And--in the minds of many facilities managers--electricity is generally regarded as a "controllable cost" that is anything but. People turn the lights on, the electric company sends a bill. If people turn the lights on at times of peak demand, the power company sends a much, much bigger bill. What to do?

      It's called "load shed"
      There is a basic idea called load shedding--when the price of electricity goes up, start turning things off. In general it is pretty binary--the price exceeds X, so we turn off all the machine tools. The price exceeds X2, and we turn off some other part of a manufacturing plant. And so forth.

      But that kind of load-shedding is a kind of brute force solution: you're using less power, but you're turning things off. Which means you're not doing something--something that presumably is part of your business. Using technologies like digitally-addressable ballasts, and photo sensors, and occupancy sensors, and algorithms that measure light levels and determine whether to adjust the lights and/or change the level of motorized shades, we can shed load in such a way that you probably don't even notice--even though we're saving you a bundle on your electric bill.

      Stand back! I have XML and I know how to use it....

  36. Why wasn't this done befor energy deregulation? by michaelmalak · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Isn't it obvious that the first step to having a free market is having published prices?

    Until your XML-enabled thermostat, XML-enabled X-10 command center, or XML-enabled ADT Security Panel reports out the current $/kwh, energy should not be market-priced to the minute. Somehow, California missed this in its great experiment.

    1. Re:Why wasn't this done befor energy deregulation? by Urban+Garlic · · Score: 1

      > Isn't it obvious that the first step to having a free market is having published prices?

      Erm, no.

      A "free market" is one in which participants exchange goods and services at a mutually agreed-upon price, according to the law of supply and demand, with third parties having no say in the matter.

      Price disclosure and other "fairness" requirements are common, but not required for the market to be free.

      --
      2*3*3*3*3*11*251
  37. Even better by marnargulus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It would be great if we could set this up, and have multiple power suppliers for an area. The XML would automatically determine the lower price and order from that vendor for a month. Companies would "bid" for large areas, and power prices would drop. The only problem would be if too many people did this and forced the more expensive power companies out of business.

    1. Re:Even better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does/can work, but technically its problematic. I've seen it on the Spanish - Portugal border towns a couple of years ago. Most houses were limited in total current consumption, say 5kW or 10kW, but supply came from two possible sources, completely separate circuits on different phases from different suppliers. Fine. Unless you are an electrician. Make a mix up about which supply is which and you burn down a few houses. With AC phase alignment is very important, and unless suppliers co-operate to lock generation phase together its dangerous anarchy.

  38. Hype by bsd4me · · Score: 1

    There is always some sort of hyped technology or process in business. I witnessed several when I worked for a mega-corp. At various times, C++, CASE, ``The Web'', Java, SEI, ISO, ``paperless'', TQM, etc, were going to solve all of their problems.

    --

    (S(SKK)(SKK))(S(SKK)(SKK))

  39. The UK is small by DAldredge · · Score: 1

    UK Geographic size: 93,000 square miles
    Texas Geographic size: 267,277 square miles.

    We do not have very many brown out in Texas either.

  40. XML Buildings? by DarthSepulsive · · Score: 1

    I wonder what the XML Schema for these new XML based buildings looks like. Or do they still use DTDs?

    1. Re:XML Buildings? by tc9 · · Score: 1

      oBIX. on Oasis. www.oasis-open.org

      or you can check out GRIDWISE. www.gridwise.org.

  41. Price changes? by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

    I didn't know electricity prices varied like that. Mine are fixed, but are corporate rates adjusted by the hour/minute depending on demand? Wow.

    1. Re:Price changes? by Mr.+Underhill · · Score: 1

      Most are not savy enough to give real time prices. Often you get a schedule of times of day duing a given season when demand charges (which are over and above total consumption charges) are in effect. Like durring summer between 11AM and 8PM demand changes will be in effect. That means that during that time you want to minimize your pull from the network.

      Keep in mind though that big sites can pay consumption charges that are like US$0.02/kWH.

    2. Re:Price changes? by iabervon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Probably not in general, but if you have a large complex, it might be. MIT, for example, has a cogeneration power plant, which produces chilled water, steam, and electricity. The demand for various products affects the rate that the generator has to run, which affects the amount of the others produced. So MIT electricity prices change every 10 seconds (there's a web page which updates at that rate), based on how much other stuff is being used. Furthermore, MIT is on the city grid, and buys any power over what the generator produces at a higher cost. If more than 20 MW are being used, then the amount used affects the percentage that's locally produced, and therefore the average cost.

      So, if it's winter and the heat is on (requiring the generator to run full power), and campus is using less than the 20 MW produced, it makes sense to run the freezers longer such that they'll require less power later when the campus is using more power.

    3. Re:Price changes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      My local power company has a variety of usage contracts for industrial users.
      The typical time-of-day contract is negotiated for a low rate that goes up during peak load times (summer days), and the increment is based on the spot price that the electric company pays for outside electricity. One industrial customer may pay a flat 3 cents a kWH year-round. Another time-of-day industrial may be paying 2 cents a kWH for the non-peak usage low rate - a fraction of a penny above the cost to generate -but sugnificantly nore during peak times. (I'm intentionally NOT using exact numbers) Home users may be paying 7 cents a KWH at the same time.
      It gets interesting in the summer. Spot electricity during peak summer hours often go above 5 DOLLARS a kWH and has been above $35/kWH. You're still paying 7 cents at home, but the time-of-day usage industrials are taking a beating.
      An intelligent industrial user that may have a Megawatt usage would shut down for a while rather than pay a 5 million dollar electric bill. To sweeten the pot, the utility will under some contracts refund to the customer some amount that the utility saved due to the reduced consumption, and that has been at times a significant amount of money. The business decides what they want to do, but the numbers are already in front of them as the load costing programs have been around forever. A few shutdown the plant and turn on their waste-product electric generation to sell electricity back to the utility at those market prices at those sweet prices.

      And, brownouts are avoided so people at home don't die from the heat and people's motors aren't damaged by the brown-out.
      That way the utility doesn't have to spend another half billion dollars on new generation that would
      only be used for a few hours a day in the summer.
      It works out better for everyone

      Now the local company is offering a discount to home-owners that allow a remote cut-off to be placed on their air conditioning unit. This gets operated during peak times (I think for a max of 1/2 hour off), and they can rotate through the customer base so no one person gets screwed.
      Because the problem is a threshold phenomenon, the utility can save the customer base millions of dollars by just shaving consumption by a few percent. And, the beauty of it is that it's all based on market pricing and customer choice.

      What's cool about the XML plan, is that it provides the end user with the information needed to make the choices in a format that doesn't tie the user to some proprietary software package/scheme. My local company has provided this info for some time, but I'm sure many companies do not share real-time pricing, particularly smaller ones that don't do variable pricing contracts.

      My local rates are among the lowest in the country and without government subsidies unlike some places.
      BTW, I have never been a electric company employee.

  42. Yeah, Load Shedding... by the_skywise · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Like another poster pointed out, Load Shedding is done to great effect to help curb power use. The Best Buys' in my area subscribe to this by cranking up the temperature in summers to lower AC usage and/or by turning off half the lights.

    But I don't see how this is going to work in office buildings. Turn the AC down in my office by even a few degrees and it gets unbearably hot. The office also has few windows and only one set of fluorescent lights per office, turn out the lights and we cna't do any work.

    What's that leave, the company water fountain?

    "Fountain's off"
    "Oh, must've been a price increase for power this morning..."

  43. Ask Slashdot: by Maljin+Jolt · · Score: 1

    Is it possible to reduce stupidity with XML too?

    --
    There you are, staring at me again.
    1. Re:Ask Slashdot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give it up, you have no hope...

  44. You're kidding...right? by Scott+Richter · · Score: 1
    I can't see any reason for buildings to talk to each other. Brownouts are unheard of here in the UK, you get the full voltage or very ocasionally nothing. I suspect it is due to the use of 240volts, less current is needed for the same power so less voltage drop due to the resistance of the wires.

    Actually, it's because you guys don't have this condition we in the states call "Summer," which is when the temperature gets up to 40C and everybody's running their air conditioners constantly.

    Voltage drop is irrelevant because all power lines are high voltage in both countries until it comes to the last, say, hundred feet. Really, you didn't think anyone transmitted long-distance at 120V (or even 240V) did you? Good God!

    That's what the transformer on every block is for - stepping the V from thousands of volts to something that won't kill little Johnny when he sticks his scissors in the socket.

    1. Re:You're kidding...right? by throwaway18 · · Score: 1

      and everybody's running their air conditioners constantly.
      Which causes a voltage drop along the wires. Obviously you should either be using thicker wires or a higher voltage. I can't believe it's the generator being overloaded.

      all power lines are high voltage in both countries until it comes to the last, say, hundred feet.
      More like half a mile in a 240volt system.
      That's what the transformer on every block is for
      Th UK electrical system has fewer step down transformers than the US.

    2. Re:You're kidding...right? by PitaBred · · Score: 1
      stepping the V from thousands of volts to something that won't kill little Johnny when he sticks his scissors in the socket.

      You do realize that it's current, not voltage that kills? Higher voltage merely makes it easier to deliver the current. Scissors in the socket are very low resistance, so the voltage doesn't matter. There's a reason many outlets have GFCI protectors on them.
    3. Re:You're kidding...right? by Scott+Richter · · Score: 1
      Which causes a voltage drop along the wires. Obviously you should either be using thicker wires or a higher voltage. I can't believe it's the generator being overloaded.

      Yes, it is the grid ccapacity that's at fault. Brownouts have nothing to do with the wires from the box. And even if it did, why would it only happen at peak capacity, during the summer? Are you seriously contending it's because of inreased resistance of copper over a 30C temperature difference? I assure you otherwise.

      More like half a mile in a 240volt system....Th UK electrical system has fewer step down transformers than the US.

      You'll only get a factor of 2 difference, and even then, you'll still have a junction. What, you thought you in the UK have wires coming directly from the power company to your house? Please!

      Ultimately, power is transmitted at MANY THOUSANDS of V. It's a big stepdown to either 120V or 240V. The difference is effectively negligible. Either way, the IR drop from the box to your house is less than a few V, I'd guess.

      Again, come to a place that has "Summer" - which is when all brownouts occur. It's because the grid is strained.

      All in all, our system has been designed for 120V. It works fine most of the time. It's not like the designers forgot about Ohm's law, for chrissakes.

      Moral of this story - a little E&M knowledge is a bad thing.

    4. Re:You're kidding...right? by Scott+Richter · · Score: 1
      You do realize that it's current, not voltage that kills? Higher voltage merely makes it easier to deliver the current. Scissors in the socket are very low resistance, so the voltage doesn't matter. There's a reason many outlets have GFCI protectors on them.

      Yes, I understand Ohm's law. I also understand that, to first order, little Johnny has a reasonably constant resistance, and that IR drop at a constant power is higher for lower voltages. Ultimately, little Johnny is fine if he bridges a 6V junction and toast if he bridges a 6000V junction.

      But if you want to test it, you grab the downed power line and I'll stick my tounge to the 9V battery.

  45. P2P doesn't reduce electricy but saves gas! by ad0gg · · Score: 1

    Gas required to drive to bestbuy or blockbuster to get a movie or some music.

    --

    Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

  46. Next step by jmcwork · · Score: 1

    Great. Next someone will use XML to control other utilities, like water. Then someone applies the wrong style sheet and the building looks like that Three Stooges episode with water coming out of the chandeliers.

  47. Sample of the code by Brain+Stew · · Score: 2, Funny

    <savings system>
    <energy plan>
    <cost> low </cost>
    <consumption> a lot </consumption>
    </energy plan>
    <savings system>

    It's genius! Genius I tells ya!

    --
    "Here's a spoiler: You're will die alone."-Triumph the Insult Comic Dog
    1. Re:Sample of the code by Hey_Bliss · · Score: 1

      You might be a genius but your XML is malformed...

  48. I think the original topic is misleading by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Original poster wrote:

    Even if new buildings are connected to Internet, they usually don't communicate between themselves. And when it comes to electricity, these buildings are selfish and consume what they want without any coordination.

    Am I missing something here? I just reread the articles and I didn't see anything about buildings communicating between themselves. . . I saw an article about buildings configured to respond to energy price information . . . but this information is not shared between buildings. In fact there is a diagram at this link from the original post . . . and it shows XML sent from a central center, not between buildings.

    In fact . . . Quoting from the same link: Beyond price, systems could be programmed to respond to changes in air quality, to participate in emissions trading schemes, to tap into sustainable energy sources, to coordinate the responses of groups of buildings, and possibly to minimize local brownout threats and price spikes, according to Connors. "There's still some wiggle room. But, all in all, it's a very cool beginning," he said.

    The article says that one could . . . coordinate responses between buildings

    The people who did this did not make buildings communicate which each other . . . they said that the could use the same technology to do this. The original post is at best misleading. At worst just plain wrong (according to the articles it cites). Either way it strikes me as an example of exagerated irresponsible journalism.

    1. Re:I think the original topic is misleading by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      Even more exagerated and irresponsible because SNMP has allows HVAC, lighting, and even network equipment to yat with central control for years.

      Re-doing all this stuff with XML is just plain stupid. There IS an existing network standard. Sure, it's a crude and imperfect standard, but it's there and a lot of what you buy already talks it.

      Next we'll be reading about how XML will revolutionize electronic music.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  49. This is how it begins... by freeze128 · · Score: 1

    This is how the end of the world begins. First, we connect everything to the internet. Then, a super intelligent AI decides that humans must be exterminated. After that, it's just a matter of a few packets to the right address, and then traffic lights are getting screwed up, draw bridges going up and down, the power in your office building going on and off....

    Didn't anyone see Maximum Overdrive?

    1. Re:This is how it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too late, the Matrix already has you.

    2. Re:This is how it begins... by Scutter · · Score: 1

      And all because of that damned XML! Curse you, convienent and powerful notational scripting language!

      --

      "Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
  50. I would like a system... by OgreChow · · Score: 1

    ..that could open my windows and shut the AC off when the temperature and humidity drop.

    1. Re:I would like a system... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the ads haven't completely turned you off from them by now, the answer to that is X10. If it has, then just get some temperature and humidity sensors, wire a breaker in before the AC, add motors to your windows, and plug it all into a microcontroller.

  51. Reminds me of a certain Dilbert comic ... by arhar · · Score: 1

    ... where the boss comes up to Dilbert and says "I think we need to build a relational database.", and Dilbert asks 'What color do you want it in?', and the boss replies 'Blue will be the best' or something like that ...

  52. Now my *house* is on the net? by The+Ultimate+Fartkno · · Score: 0



    Great. Like I don't get enough "refinance your mortgage!" spam already...

  53. Help! My office building has been hacked! by the+Luddite · · Score: 2, Funny

    Everytime I flip the light switch the AC turns off and if I use the coffee pot it does unspeakable things to anyone unfortunate enough to be in the bathroom!

  54. RFC by isorox · · Score: 1

    Yeah, the RFC isn't as specific as XML, but gives the principles

  55. And all this time I've been using SNMP by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
    What was I thinking?

    I guess I'll have to throw away all this existing building control equipment that all interoperates, so I can jump on this XML bandwagon.

    /Tongue planted firmly in cheek.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  56. So if this were adopted on a wide scale... by scrod98 · · Score: 1
    Wouldn't it be a self defeating system? If hundreds (or thousands) of building suddenly increase their usage to take advantage of cheap prices, wouldn't that also lead to rolling brownouts or blackouts? Conversely, if all dropped the consumption quickly, wouldn't that lead to the price dropping due to greatly reduced demand?

    Seems like there needs to be an additional level of communication between the buildings so everyone doesn't shift at once. The model is cool with 5 buildings, but will need more work to scale up.

    As is says in TFA, it is only a narrow proof, simply a beginning.

    --
    LETS DECOMPOSE & ENJOY ASSEMBLING
    1. Re:So if this were adopted on a wide scale... by Doubting+Thomas · · Score: 1

      I can think of a couple of things off the top of my head that would greatly soften the sort of whipsawing you're so concerned about. A feedback mechanism that estimates what the reaction to the price change will be, and sets the new price at something approximating the final price after the demand change occurs, would help. So would staggering the price change so that not everyone in that part of the grid reacts at exactly the same moment.

      --
      Just because it works, doesn't mean it isn't broken.
  57. Building Controls Systems by Mr.+Underhill · · Score: 1

    This stuff is a lot older than the article implies. If you want to see a networked building control system that uses XML drop by Johnson Controls Metasys. It does everything the article talks about and way more besides. The XML apspect of the system is only about a year and a half old but the networked demand limiting/load rolling apsects are 10+ years old.

    So I can pretty much say the article is XML hype.

    1. Re:Building Controls Systems by Dan+the+Control+Guy · · Score: 1

      Metasys? Surely you jest :-)

      JC is probably the LEAST advanced BAS with regard to web standards and XML

      ALC, Alerton and Teletrol are all ahead of the "Old Guard" on this.

      --
      When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    2. Re:Building Controls Systems by Mr.+Underhill · · Score: 1

      You are probably thinking of the older PMI/NCM350 based software. The newer stuff is .NET, Java, and SOAP based with SVG for graphics. Each supervisory controller is a web server.

      JCI is right in the thick of web standards.

  58. just imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just imagine a whole city networked with XML...

    you could then implement a "screen-saver-like" application that would make lights flicker on and off across the city in psychedelic patterns!

  59. Followup Q by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

    Since you seem to know what you're talking about, the big question we all seem to have is do these systems control the lights. And on the tpoic of lights, why do most buildings run the lights 24/7? I know they used to do it to help keep the building warm, but in the age of flourescent tubes... you'd think $0 is better than paying to light an empty building for 8 hrs.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:Followup Q by Dan+the+Control+Guy · · Score: 1

      Lighting is easy, and usually integrated with everything else (A/C, sometimes access and CCTV)

      --
      When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    2. Re:Followup Q by Mattintosh · · Score: 2, Informative

      do these systems control the lights

      Yes. Speaking strictly about ALC products, you can either turn the lights on and off with control programs in the general purpose "HVAC" controllers (which have various configurations of inputs, along with a fully programmable microprocessor from the PPC family), or you can buy a Triatek (made by ALC) lighting system, which undoubtedly has more features for lighting, but isn't quite as general purpose.

      Basically, the system is a set of networked control modules, each able to turn things on or off (Form C contact, 3A max), ramp up and down with a variable output signal (0-10VDC or 0-20mA), and sense inputs of several types (thermistor, dry contact, 0-10VDC, 0-5VDC, 0-20mA). The controller itself can handle timed schedules and network-viewable points (inputs or outputs on other modules, broadcast over the network). A central server hosts the software and user interface, but each module has its program flashed into EEPROM. Reprogramming is a matter of a few seconds, but loss of power doesn't necessarily cause catastrophic failure.

      To sum up: you can control damned near anything with a system like this.

    3. Re:Followup Q by Mr.+Underhill · · Score: 1

      Just to add a bit to what my competitors have said that is not always obvious to those outside the control business is that anything under control of our systems can be subjected to an automatic schedule. The lights could turn on and off based 7 day time schedule with exception days and holiday days that are indicated on a calender for example.

      And/Or as a security guard is patroling at night, as he keys into each section of the building the system could turn on just the lights in that section for 30 minutes or whatever.

      Jobs where we link together systems like Fire, Security, and HVAC control are always a favorite.

  60. XML does use more energy by ni4882 · · Score: 1

    When I first read the headline, my gut instinct was that some places were using too much energy because they had switched to using XML. With all of the XML overhead these days, I wonder how much extra energy is being used by servers to parse the XML.
    So stop using XML and save your building some energy!

  61. Yes, but by chip-to-chip · · Score: 1

    Switching off a freezer for twenty minutes does not save any money. It gets warmer while it's off. When it is turned back on the therostat starts the compressor and it uses just a much electricity in one go as it would have to run ocasionally during the twenty minutes.

    You're right, it won't save any electricity to switch it off for twenty minutes. But if those twenty minutes are when the price is highest, you will save money. I think that's what the grandparent was saying.

  62. Genital Herpes and HTML.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually plain old html is helping with genital herpes. No XML required The Original Herpes Home Page

  63. Already doing a variant of this by Dan+the+Control+Guy · · Score: 1

    http://www.teletrol.com

    --
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
  64. but seriously by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1
    This didn't really seem like much co-operation between buildings. they were just independently listening to price-of-electricity broadcasts (over XML whoop-dee-freakin-doo) and acting solely on that information.

    But take a moment of brainstorming and you can imagine some areas where buildings could actually co-operate:
    • adjacent buildings could compare temperatures and notice that one is always a little hot (because of a lot of people and equipment) and one is always a little cold (maybe it's in shadow most of the day and lightly occupied). The buildings could do an ROI on establishing a heat pump between the two buildings and tell someone about it if it's positive.
    • buildings with solar power could offer to sell to nearby buildings. since distribution over short distances is more efficient, this would save the innefficency of selling it back to edison who then resells it some random place at some markup.
    • water source heat pumps could negotiate sharing agreements over who gets to raise/lower a shared pond by how many (fractions) of a degree.
    • buildings could monitor nearby microclimates on behalf of each other to make better predictions on weather and thus anticipate temperature/light changes by, for example, storing up some heat at evening rates if there is a cold front coming in or pre-chilling if buildings to the east are reporting a big jump when the sun comes up.
    • crime wave/riot situation: if other buildings security or fire alarms are going off in the area, turn on exterior lights, run a systems check on the fire safety system, and send a page to building security people.
    • co-ordinate holiday schedules. often there are a few buildings that leave systems running on holidays that happen M-F. If one building seems to be deviating from the pack, it can suggest to building management that maybe they can shutdown a/c on monday.
    • marketing. if some conference rooms are in use after 6pm, the neighborhood Pizza Hub would sure like to know about it so they can send over some food and soda.

  65. I think the original topic is misleading-MusicXML by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Next we'll be reading about how XML will revolutionize electronic music."

    MusicXML

  66. Other good reasons to do it. by jhines · · Score: 1

    It has been reported that Chicago has had great success with turning off skyscraper lighting, during migration periods for birds, which used to fly into the lit buildings.

    If buildings could co-operate, and create corridors of darkness for our feathered friends.

  67. Saw this in 1977 at AF avionics lab at Wright Pat. by the_rajah · · Score: 1

    I was a contractor back then, working for T.I. The whole building was controlled by, IIRC, a Honeywell system down to groups of outlets, HVAC and lighting in each and every room. If we wanted to work late, we had to get the utilities timing changed so the room didn't shut down at 5:00. If we wanted to leave something powered overnight, we had to tell the builing control person the room number and outlet.

    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
  68. Why not... by Earl+The+Squirrel · · Score: 1

    ...just print out money using XML? That'd definitely cut costs 8-)

  69. XML Hype-Shakespeare. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I couldn't agree more. XML has been out for a long time, but most people, including techies don't understand that XML is simply a format for a PLAIN TEXT file or stream. That's *all* it is."

    And the English language is just a string of letters seperated by whitespace. Greatly overhyped.

  70. its all about buzzword by nazsco · · Score: 3, Insightful

    do i care if the system use xml?
    it's like highlightinh a calculator for using binary in the insides!

  71. Better Living Through Chemistry! by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

    It used to be "better living through chemistry". Back in the 50's chemistry was the answer to all our problems. Now it's "better living through XML".

    This story title reads like it came from Disney's World of Tomorrow!

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  72. Re:Saw this in 1977 at AF avionics lab at Wright P by Mattintosh · · Score: 1

    They needed to give you guys a TLO (Timed Local Override) button.

  73. o.O by Eudial · · Score: 1

    *jot 220V on a note*
    *stick in power outlet*
    *insert cord*

    220 V power? ;)

    --
    GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
  74. Re:Saw this in 1977 at AF avionics lab at Wright P by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 1

    Wow. That's taking the idea of power savings just a bit too far. A system like this could inconvenience people to the point that they start creating clever (and often unsafe) workarounds, such as running extension cords between rooms or putting warmers underneath thermostats.

  75. Movable and typesetting efficiency by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

    As anyone who watched "Wheel of Fortune" on a regular basis is aware, the most common consonants in English are R,S,T,L,N,, and the vowel E. By increasing the percentage of words which use off-peak letters such as "X","M" and "L", operators of conventional style typesetting devices have been able to increase their printing capacity by a whopping 3%!

    --

    ___
    It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
  76. Feedback problems by linuxwrangler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My old roommate worked for a firm that made automatic real-time meter readers and associated equipment to help facilitate real-time pricing and usage control.

    Managing the grid turns out to be a problem. If buildings or factories are programmed to shed load as the price increases then you can cause a situation where the load drop causes a price drop which signals the systems to start up again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Additionally there is the problem that some systems can respond quickly (reduce to minimum lighting) while others have much longer startup/shutdown times (assembly lines, utility peaker plants).

    Balancing everything to prevent gaming the system and to ensure reliabilty will have to be addressed before such systems can reach widespread use.

    --

    ~~~~~~~
    "You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
  77. reduction? by shokk · · Score: 1

    "The Berkeley Lab twice signaled price increases that triggered reductions in the buildings' energy use"


    What I wonder is what the reduction consists of? Are we really staring at rolling blackouts, or are they just cutting off 100 rpm from cooling systems? Are they shutting out the lights in the men's room or dimming lights by 0.5%?

    --
    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
  78. ascii by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've just powered my api by leveraging ASCII!

  79. Set lighting to "sexy" by dexter+riley · · Score: 1

    What they don't tell you is that XML = eXtreme Mood Lighting.

    By dimming every light to a very sexy 15 watts, the building both saves electricity, and gets its groove on, oh yeah.

  80. A day of shame for many slashdot readers? by slashdotcassius · · Score: 1

    Anyone see the little part of the diagram that read "Load Shed"? That means "turn stuff off"; and the trigger of this happy ingenuity: 'when a lot is used'. While the underlying research may yet be worthwhile, the article and the Slashdot comments I read are not worthwhile. This article so blatantly sells black-box tech, that I'm curious as to whether or not this was posted just for something to insight submission traffic on the site.

  81. another way for XML to save energy by Once&FutureRocketman · · Score: 1
    This will be of interest to architects and building designers. Geopraxis has developed gbXML (Green Building XML), which is a protocol for communicating energy-related building design parameters between design packages (e.g. AutoCAD) and analysis packages (e.g. eQuest or Energy-10). They also provide a free webtool that will do a quick energy use analysis (more like an estimate) based on the uploaded gbXML file. Given that 95% of all new building designs are never analyzed at all for energy use, this is potentially a huge step forward.


    I'm not associated with them in any way. I just thought it was a cool application of the technology.

    --

    "Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." -- Wernher von Braun

  82. Submitter is a slashdot spammer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    see this article about Rolands real priorities in posting articles (clue it isnt about bringing us technology stories)

  83. XML saves the world AND fights bad breath! by Theovon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wow. It seems like XML is like the Holy Grail or something. I'm guessing from the headline that XML was the primary enabler for this power-saving thing, and were it not for XML, the power-saving would not have been possible!

    Wow! XML is like that miracle stuff you can buy on TV which will clean the worst stains off your pots and pans, makes the best sandwitch spread you've ever eaten, and also makes a great substitute for gasoline.

    Dude, now that I have XML, I have no excuse not to do my laundry, exercise, or clean the house, because with XML, I can do ANYTHING, and I can do it so much easier too.

    The thing is, unlike those other people, I'm not really smart enough to figure out how to use XML to save money on my power bill.

  84. Go, buzzwords, go! by achurch · · Score: 1

    Next you know we'll have an implementation of RFC 3251.

  85. Saving energy by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

    The Berkeley Lab twice signaled price increases that triggered reductions in the buildings' energy use -- at 30-cents and 75-cents per hour -- following criteria established by the buildings' facility managers. The building control systems triggered the required adjustments within two minutes, said Piette.

    If it's that simple to reduce energy usage un demand, then why not reduce it permanantly and save even more without XML?

    --
    bickerdyke
  86. It's not just HVAC by tc9 · · Score: 1

    However many times the BACNET guys say HVAC, and ASHRAE standards, the building is more complicated than that.

    If you wanted to build (and sell many times, not just as a custom app) an application sitting astride the embedded control systems, you clearly could build a HVAC application on top of BACNET, or you could talk to other systems via LON. Of course, of you had ever heard of objects, you might want those functions (Loop Tuning? millisecond response time? SNVT discovery?) safely embedded,encapsulated, and abstracted.

    If you are talking interaction with Security systems you could get one of the lowest commond denominator systems made by the HVAC guys, or you could get something from the security specialists. These systems do not tend to speak BACNET or LON, and (being security systems) the members of the SIA (note - not ASHRAE)do not like their products to take direction from the HVAC systems. As a note in passing on the complexity of integrating the controls world, within the SIA, there are at least 3 vertical markets (Access Control, Intrusion Detection, Alarm Management) that each have their own protocol wars.

    So, my plan is to shut down the 4th floor, and not let any more people in to earn the large rebate offfered by the Electric Grid. Then I dim the lights -what, they aren't just incandescents, and I want to turn every otherfixture entirely, so I don't get strobing? Well, maybe its time to lean DALI for lighting control. Except for that big lobby. That lobby has big lights that need controlled power to warm up or to cool down over a 25 minute cycle -with associated cooling behaviors. Now that lobby has an A/V event managemnt control system running - what protocol does that use?

    Yeah I could write binary feeds to everything. Yeah I could parse the internal protocols for every control system on the planet. but so far, we are just on Load Shedding - and not very intelligent load shedding, either. If I want to make those decisions based upon known Foot Traffic, or intersect with the Elevators, or any number of other controls whem making this decision, I've got still more protocols.

    All of this is complicated by systems that are mantained for decades rather than swapped out every three years. Who here remembers how to talk RSTS/E sys calls? Do you want to revive that knowlege this month?

    Maybe this same enterprise application also wants to quzz the electrical meters about the instantaneous usage, or whether power consumption is currently grouped on one phase or another -oops now we have to figure out what SCADA protocol they are using. Hmmm, maybe for this rebate, its worthwhile taking some of the electrical load off the grid and firing up the internal generators or fuel cells. Add in a few more incompatible binary protocols.

    Quickly one realizes that every building agent is a custom from scratch application every time (except perhaps if a single hotel chain builds 10 of the same buildings based on the same design - but even there, there may be differences based on local code, and local contractors, and local inspectors).

    Oh, and by the way, sometimes two or more of these function will be combined in the same control system. That might actually be one of the local changes described above.

    This is why some of us want a an abstract self-describing interface on the gateway between each control system and the network. That system will encapsulate and abstracte this stuff up to some standard that the Buildign Agent will talk to.

    And that is why the verbosity of XML is the last concern.

    1. Re:It's not just HVAC by TimTheFoolMan · · Score: 1

      Given that (to the best of my knowledge) the Fire and Security pieces of the BACnet standard were the last pieces to come in, it has largely been driven by HVAC companies to this point. This is unfortunate, as you point out, because this may lead to the tail wagging the dog. I fear we'll see all sorts of addendums and annexes to deal with the realities of F&S that the initial BACnet group didn't envision.

      FWIW, a good part of what I do is making Security, Fire, and HVAC systems from different companies play nicely together, and do so without creating new issues for the Security or Fire systems. As you said, creating tight integration, even for reporting purposes, is frequently at odds with the level of isolation necessary for good business sense. Sometimes, we have to educate the customer that what they want to do is technically possible (with enough $$), but isn't a wise idea. In that situation, the Security guys are my best allies.

      Tim

  87. DALI, actually by tc9 · · Score: 1

    is what you want for lighting controls. And as mentioned by someone, maybe you want a tenant interaction with the control system so you can work late w/o contacting a security guard first.

  88. O really? by rishistar · · Score: 1
    Reducing Electricity Bills For Buildings With XML

    Isn't this a book in the O'Reilly series? I wonder what sort of animal goes on the front cover?

    --
    Professor Karmadillo Songs of Science