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Sony, Walkmans And The iPod
yootje writes "A long story about Sony, and how Sony developed: from the first walkman, until the latest competition against the iPod. "
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Sony is ... opening retail stores to showcase Sony products
Wow, I hope that tactic works better than it did for Gateway.
Sigs cause cancer.
You could replace Ipod with any other mp3 player in the title of the story. The iPod is not the only mp3 player out there, there were some before and there are plenty more now. Quite a few with many more space and features. I had to say it but you can now mod me down for my post that doesn't praise the Apple gods.
From the article...
"Customers who look to the iPod as the only advanced styling and fashion statement out there are going to take more than a second look at the Walkman.''
Possibly so, but most of the folks I know who have iPod's (including the Mini) don't just like the way it looks, but also like the fact that "it just works" in iTunes for both Windows and PC. Not to mention, of course, the hardware interface itself. It's simple enough that even my non-techie friends have figured how to use 90% of the functionality within 5 minutes. That's impressive design.
Perhaps Sony could make one that looks better...but can they make works better???
It's "no one," not "noone." Who the hell is noone anyway?
Adaptive TRansform Acoustic Coding originated with the minidisc. A nice little description.
I can't think whether the price for a Sony portable music player to compete with the iPod would be higher or lower, seeing that both Sony and Apple sell products the public sees as "premium". Considering that most of Sony's music products are priced high just for the name, they'll have to make competitive pricing for such a product focused point in order to beat Apple at this game.
It would be cool if it didn't suck.
I think this is will be a challenge for this device to pick up speed.
The additional effort and time needed to convert MP3 to Atrac3 format might not be a popular.
"The problem is they are a company at war with itself. So because they want to own everything, they end up owning nothing."
Sunset over the lake, cool mist over the bridge; A leave upon the ripples, the snow reflects its glow.
Though I said that when they introduced the Playstation, and look how that turned out...
Regardless, there are dozens of players on the mark with more features than Apple's. It's subjective, but I think many of them look better and are easier to use. The far majority of them are much cheaper. Despite all this, the iPod dominates the market.
It's a style thing, and fasion has great turnover. The iPod will be forgotten at some point, just as I threw out my last poncho the other day. The way Sony will prove me wrong again will probably be in its marketing. I'm sure they can throw together a better campaign than Apple with their greater resources.
I really don't think that Sony will be able to compete with the iPod. iPods already have a reputation of being the best of their kind. Unless Sony's model is significantly cheaper or better, people won't buy it.
This new Sony iPod killer may be small, but on close inspection, it's kind of ugly.
Looks like the interface will be similar to the iPods as well, still feel Apple's way is kind of clunky for searching through large music lists.
Remember that when you buy Sony, you support the people whose management said these things.
Where Apple scored was in getting ALL the major companies to go for ITMS.
I SINCERELY doubt that Sony will engage in industry-wide marketing with the other majors.
Now, if only the ITMS would serve as a outlet for the Indies as well...
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
The Walkman quite possibly defined audio in the 1980s, but Sony seem to have forgotten that this wonderful device that made them tonnes of cash was built around a format invented by someone else; Philip's audio cassette tape.
You would really have expected Sony to have capitalised on both a) the popularity of MP3s and b) the popularity of their brand. But no - we're stuck with ATRAC - and unfortunately, it looks like they accidentally took a leaf from the Betamax manual. When are they going to learn?
A German did, and Sony finaly admited it.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
I'm sure Son'y brilliant engineers can come up with an iPod-a-like which will work well and sell well, but I din't think thye'll beat the iPod.
Early to the market is a big gain, as is having developed a highly usable product, both of these are on Apple's side. Furthermore, the kind of buyers who buy iPods probably understand the benefits of open standards - Mp3 and AAC against Sony's proprietary ATRAC system, even if they don't already have Mp3 collections. Sony stands for lock-in. Customers rarely take well to that
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
"I know a genuine Panaphonics when I see one. And there's Magnetbox, and Sorny!"
...I assume you mean 'Premium Piece of Crap'. I make it a point to stay away from Sony. Their products have been less than reliable for me.
Of course, that's just my experience, but it's the only experience I can easily trust.
I like everything I see about the Sony products including their attitude on the long-haul. Everything but one ... they still use their nasty-sounding ATRAC format (the same one used for minidiscs).
Sorry, but if you can't play MP3 OR Ogg Vorbis OR AAC, you're dead in the water. Yes, they bundle software to convert those formats (not sure about Ogg Vorbis, which is what I use) for loading onto the player as ATRAC files, but this is seriously not something that interests me.
Give me the same basic form factor, a higher price (but still under iPod), and the ability to natively play MP3, Ogg Vorbis and AAC (yes, all 3 ... I actually would be happy with OV but I'm not the mass-market ... I'll even admit that you could probably get away without including OV for the next couple of years with no significant market loss) and you've got me hook, line and tweeter.
Until then I'm sticking with my rather huge but very flexible Neuros. A shame, because until I found the blurbs about the ATRAC (that verbally sounds too much like 8-track :) file format I was seriously drooling.
And while you're at it, allow me to load files via USB Mass-storage so that I don't need a bunch of flaky software to load the player. Right now this and size are the only detractors keeping the Neuros from being the best thing out there. An Ogg player with USB Mass-storage loading (Neuros supports USB mass-storage, but won't play songs loaded that way because they are not in the database) that is small with a significant battery life and good corporate support ... is it so much to ask? Yeah *laugh* I guess so.
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
There is a reason Sony sells so well. They make some of the best electronics in the world. I own a Sony TV that has been working for 8 years and never had a problem. Everything I purchased from them has lasted and worked. I pay more for it, but I think it is worth it. Much better than paying 25% less for something that breaks in a year. With Sony I have never purchased an extended warrenty because I feel secure knowing the product was manufactured to last.
As for them opening stores, if they are doing this for marketing (and not profit) I think it is a very smart move. Apple opened a store in a shopping center near me, and it is cool to go and play around with their toys. Plus, the people they hired are trained to be friendly and more playful compared to the "computer store" with the small Mac section in the back and the over stressed salesman. By having their own store, they can have a different buisness model than a store (marketing and advertising their product versus sales).
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
"it just works" in iTunes for both Windows and PC."
Hey you're underestimating it - it works on Macintoshes too!
I bought my very first Sony Walkman when I was about 13, after I had saved money for over a year. I was so proud of it, although it was big, bulky and made an awful whirring noise while playing. Still it survived water, dust, various people sitting on it and even being dropped the 4 fourth floor of a building. Actually, it works to this very day.
I prefer more fragile stuff.
Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
And, it has a built in FM tuner, comes with LCD remote, optical and analog ins and outs, records direct to MP3 or WAV, has Ogg Vorbis support. You can record via analog in, optical in, or built in microphone.
There are a few quirks with some firmware, and navigation isn't as easy as with the iPod. Also, iRiver is super busy writing firmware for a few of their upcoming units, so a firmware update hasn't been released for these units for a little while. You should check out the hilarious disgruntled 14 year olds on the iRiver community forum.
Anyway, I made my choice, and I'm happy with it.
Stand clear of the doors. The doors are now closing.
If someone could please pull that Consumer Reports list of the best Home Electronic companies and tell me where Sony ranks, that would be swell.
The last time I checked, Sony sucks. It has been nearly 10 years since Sony rooled in terms of quality. Now, I consider them to be the Wal-Mart of Home Electronics. Their TVs and PlayStatios may rule but that same craftmanship is lost on all the other stuff they choose to slap their brand on.
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
Still, an article on Sony gave you an opportunity to post that quote you've been saving up, didn't it.
a biased source? yes. but a fair analysis? yes, IMO, including full bias disclosure at the end of the article.
How long does it take to encode, say, 1GB of mp3 data to "Atrac3"?
How big will that data be in "Atrac3"?
How will the quality compare?
Are there free programs to encode this data?
sony = atrac = no flexibility = crap
therefore, wheres the competition if they keep pushing their crappy codec?
This device has more in common with a minidisc player than an iPod, it seems. Right now I use a two-year-old md player, and it's okay. It's no iPod, but it only cost about $100 back when I bought it.
Pros: Excellent battery life (up to 40 hours); separation of device and media (the discs); uses one standard AA battery; cheap.
Cons: Everything else... the sound quality of ATRAC doesn't really matter to me, but the process of converting CDs and MP3s is bullshit. Sony's loader programs suck. And it doesn't help that they won't support Mac OS X.
Now, consider this new Sony Walkman thing; it appears to have lost 3/4 of the pros of the md player (as above). So there's no way in hell that I would buy it. I think I'll wait until Sony's new "Hi-MD" players come down in price. These are md players that can record 45 hours of music or 1 GB of data on one disc.
Man, what kind of person buy's a Walkman? The iPod matches my curtains! And, look, it has a neat little wheel!
We bought a few Sony MD recorders for academic use before we realize how difficult it was to get the recorded content off the minidiscs.
While the product description for new Walkman claims the software included with the Walkman can convert MP3 and WMA to the proprietary ATRAC format... there is no mention of how or if the files can be converted to use on a non-Sony product. In the 80's, I could move a tape from my Sony Walkman to my Magnovox boombox. Sony worked with a standard format for recording and media and they were successful. You'd think they would have learned from the MiniDisc's failure that open and compatible sells better than close and proprietary.
To get the best of Sony style but a less restricting DRM, check out RetroPod.
Did someone say The Sony Store?
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
My last few experiences with Sony have just been miserable. Their recent products are shoddy, with warranties to match. A Sony digicam I bought in 2003 came with a 1 year parts and 90 days labor warranty. The camera died after six months. My Sony cassette deck, bought around 1994, was dead in three years of light use. The Sony CD alarm clock didn't work right after a couple of years. They're just making junk now.
Wow, the thing is great! The new VAIO X505 has some very nice goodies and albeit it may be a little slow, it does use the ULV Intel chips! Low power, lower heat seem to be the way of the future...
For one, Sony has years more experience making consumer electronics than Apple. They already know all the inds and outs of usable design.
For two, Sony is huge enough that they can drive the whole market themselves. (Sony is a much larger company than Apple), especially in this area. I mean, think about it:
- Sony already has its own music store
- Sony already has its own removable media, that is cross-compatable with every Sony device
- Sony already has inroads into the home theatre market and portable gaming market
Look at it this way - Sony could release a device, right now, that would be as sleek as the iPod, cost less, have automatic hooks into its music store, and not only has an onboard HD but accepts SOny Memory Sticks, so you can download songs directly from Sony Connect into your Walkman, then copy them over to your Clie or PSP with 0 effort.
And they could do all this significantly cheaper than an iPod because Sony could in theory sell the Walkman as a *loss leader* to market it's music. Apple can't do this, since they are not a music publisher like Sony so they sell the music as a loss leader to sell hardware.
Besides - what if Sony just decided all its music on all its labels was no longer allowed to be sold at iTMS? Bye bye iPod.
Sony is banking on their assumption that iPod's are the "hip" device for the youth while the walkman will capture an ignored market share that was waiting for a familiar name before making an investment.
Their assumption is flawed because a lot of the first group gives technical advice to the second. I know that if anyone in my little world makes noises about buying one of these things, my browser will be pointing them to www.ipod.com before they can say "but I'm comfortable with Sony."
Open Source Sushi
Seriously. Apple owns the portable music market. Apple is the heavyweight champ. Let it go, the only thing other companies are going to do is waste money.
There is still money to be made in the $100 market. Maybe for a car mounted MP3 system, but the battle for mid/upper range pocket music is over. Apple won it.
Everything that Apple did wrong in the desktop computer war worked perfectly for the portable music market.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
... to get their music, just like Apple does with iTMS.
1) It depends on the bit rate of source and destination, and your processor speed.
2) Depends on the bit rate.
3) You tell me, there's so much bias and emotional reaction out there it's impossible to tell. The ATRAC3plus 256k sounds exactly like the CD to me, on Koss Portapros. ANY defect in the music I've seen so far , in my case, came FROM THE ORIGINAL CD!!!!
4) There's a crack of SS2 with no DRM, or you can use the alternative MD Simple Burner, but so far as I can tell, you need Sony's software somewhere along the line.
Sony to License "ATRAC 3 TM"
American and Japanese Semiconductor Chip Companies join Sony in promoting "ATRAC 3TM" Sound Compression Technology
February 26, 2000 - Sony Corporation today announced plans to license the LSI codec of the "ATRAC 3" sound compression technology developed by Sony to the following seven companies: Fujitsu Limited, Hitachi Ltd., Motorola, Inc. (Chicago, Illinois), NEC Corporation, ROHM CO., LTD., SANYO Electric Co., Ltd., Texas Instruments, Inc. (Texas, USA).
Licensing will allow these companies to develop and commercialize "ATRAC 3" compliant LSI, which will smoothen the development and commercialization of "ATRAC 3" compliant audio devices by hardware manufacturers.
"ATRAC 3" is a sound compression technology based on "ATRACTM" used for MiniDisc. Compared with "ATRAC", "ATRAC3" features a higher compression rate, while maintaining the same level of sound quality. It has been highly anticipated as a compression technology that enables music distribution with high sound quality. "ATRAC 3" has been commercialized through Memory Stick WalkmanTM and the "bitmusicTM" music distribution service by Sony Music Entertainment Japan, Inc. since December 1999.
"Today's announcement further demonstrates the capability of 'ATRAC 3' to link to a variety of electronics devices and recording media in addition to packaged media such as 'MiniDisc' and 'Memory Stick'. We believe that collaboration with a host of LSI manufacturers will play a key role for the wide acceptance of 'ATRAC 3' business especially because it is essential for us to have a variety of LSI codec specifications" said Shizuo Takashino, Corporate Senior Executive Vice President of Sony Corporation.
"Making a family of our Hi-perion DSP products compliant with 'ATRAC 3' as an audio codec will allow us to exponentially expand our DSP business in the silicon audio market in the future" said Joji Murakami, Doctor of Engineering General Manager, System Micro Division, Fujitsu Limited.
"We have already commercialized a system LSI compliant with 'Memory Stick', and we believe that today's announcement will help to further develop a wide rage of products" said Seiichi Ueda, General Manager of System LSI Marketing Division, Semiconductor & Integrated Circuits, Hitachi Ltd.
"We place a high value on digital AV business in consumer devices, and we anticipate to further expand our business through emergence of Sony's 'ATRAC 3' and our IP core/process technology" said Toshio Nakajima, General Manager of 1st System LSI Division, System LSI Operations Unit, NEC Corporation.
"We anticipate to quickly comply with a variety of data compression applications for users by incorporating Sony's 'ATRAC 3' sound compression technology in the future" said by Toshio Asai, Director of LSI Product Development Headquarters, ROHM CO., LTD.
"We have developed an ATRAC decoder featuring low-power consumption. We believe that utilizing the feature will enable to develop 'ATRAC 3' compliant devices and help to gain wide application" said Yasuhiko Okuyama, Deputy General Manager of MOS-LSI Division, Semiconductor Company, SANYO Electric Co., Ltd.
When everyone else is using one format (mp3, compact flash...) you use another (atrac, memory stick...).
Exactly the point. Sony is so big they dont *care* if everyone else is doing X, because they can do Y and still make money.
Look at the memory stick - proprietary format, only Sony devices can use it. But look at how proliferated it is!
Look at it this way - You will be able to go to connect.com and buy an album from Columbia records, copy the ATRAC to a memory stick on your Vaio, play them on your Clie, play them on your Sony Reciever, play them on your deck in your car, play themon your walkman, play them on your TV, play them on your Sony cell phone... and Sony has made profit at every point in the chain, from production to distribution to consumption.
It's all about vertical markets. And Sony can drive the market how they see fit because they are big enough. Apple has no chance of doing this.
I don't get the Ipod's popularity. Do that many people have $300.00-400.00 to shell out on such a device? I sure as hell don't.
1) I can't afford to buy music from iTunes either
2) I just use one of the Inexpensive Portable CD/MP3 Player hybrids, burn a shiload of MP3s to a CD-R and go with that. I'm perfedtly content with it.
If and when Apple makes an affordable portable digital music player "for the rest of us..." <evil grin>, I might be interested..
Scott
©20014 angrykeyboarder & Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
that is just the prototype. The finished version might look a bit different. Sony also will improve on a different model as it did to the 8MM Handycam. Once Sony gets customer feedback, the Networked Walkman will look different, have more features, and cost less.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
I love them. Everyone loves them. Thank you, Free Market Capitalism, for another glorious innovation that has brought millions and millions of people joy. We all are indebted to you.
I have seen their story of the walkman on Discovery. And I think that it is incredible that they have not learned their own lesson. ATRAC will not be the next not thing, MP3 players are and the boat left without them. And trying to take another route instead of trying to catch up, is a bad idea when the cat is out of the bag.
How long does it take to encode, say, 1GB of mp3 data to "Atrac3"?
~14 hours iirc
How big will that data be in "Atrac3"?
700mb or so
How will the quality compare?
Sux I'd imagine given it's max 64kbps, but with walkman headphones you can't tell the difference, or I can't anyway. IIRC the atrac format is better than mp3 overall, but v3 has nasty artifacts when dealing with loud percussion.
Are there free programs to encode this data?
Nope
I can't believe Sony even is thinking of trying to compete with the IPod. I suffered horribly while owning a MD Player from Sony. The horrible software, the crappy tech support...Sony is lucky to get my money for the PS2.
I'm not liked at all.
Ease-of-use is subjective, but as another poster pointed out, someone who has never seen an iPod before can figure out all its functions within five minutes. Ease-of-use goes beyond the device itself, and to the methods of interacting with the device, and that's where the iPod shines brighter than any other portable music solution. The integration with iTunes and the use of a fast firewire connection makes the iPod really plug and play: one can organize the tunes on a Dell desktop or Powerbook, plug in the iPod and have it work.
At the same time, the chief feature, to me anyway, is portablility, and the iPod (and now the mini) have the best combination of small size and large capacity.
When you say the iPod is only a fasion statement, I think you're wrong. It's a beautiful device, sure, and that's a plus, but it's also simply the best.
The iPod will be forgotten at some point, just as I threw out my last poncho the other day.
Agreed. The day is coming when small, hard-drive based players become commoditized. But then again, I thought it would already be here, and yet years after its introduction the iPod continues to dominate. At least until after Christmas, I see no serious competitors, which brings me to the last point.
The way Sony will prove me wrong again will probably be in its marketing. I'm sure they can throw together a better campaign than Apple with their greater resources.
Maybe. But Sony's device comes late to the market and offers no real technical advantages over the iPod. In fact, it offers technical disadvantages because it only accepts Sony's Atrac (I'm not sure about the capitalization) format. That means anyone who wants to use it must wait for their music to be converted to an inferior format that will further reduce sound quality. Anyone who asks me whether they should buy a Sony portable music device will get a resounding "NO!" I suspect Sony's player will get drowned out by other competitors like Dell and Creative. Sony's efforts don't always pan out: consider the Mini-Disk. I think this will merely be another one.
Still, I agree with your header, because I don't think Sony stands a chance either.
Disclaimer: I don't own an iPod and will not until/unless Apple offers Ogg Vorbis support. That being said, I recognize that I'm in the minority, and I understand why other people buy them, which is why I posted the above.
minidisc, sony digital cameras, and I think even the Clei don't seem to have done to well with this model.
If my SonyEricsson cell phone played mp3s we might be in business. Though even if it did play music it would have to be atrac or whatever drm-happy standard they come up with. Memory sticks would be better as memory squares, or compact flash - I'll probably go with whatever manufacturer uses compact flash (hopefully nokia). These proprietary standards are reuining what would otherwise be a very competative lineup of products. Whether or not they can still make money, it's a stupid move.
Sony may be a big company but it cant ignore the consumers, and leaving out mp3 support is not in the consumer's interest. Its mp3 or death in the portable music game. mark my words.
Also, I don't think Sony can teach Apple much about makeing money by building proprietary systems. Apple's experience in this area is actually why I don't own an Apple pc.
bit trollent
Took me longer to install the software then it did to pop in a CD, run 'simple md burner' and *poof*, in no-time I had tracks on a MD to listen too ...
And I spent much less then 1/2 the cost of an Ipod.. ( yes I realize I only get some 300 odd minutes on a disc, but for the cost difference and convenience of virtually unlimited storage, it was well worth it. )
Now this of course wouldn't be the case if I only had a MAC to hook to it.. ( would have to use VirtualPC in that case )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I think there are people deep in Sony who watched a lot of The Jetsons and Star Trek as kids, and really really really want to make all that cool technology happen.
It will be interesting to see if they can bring this spirit to the current portable audio market.
There's a Sony themed entertainment complex / retail outlet: Metreon that's been in San Francisco for at least 5 years and seems to be doing pretty well ...
Sony (whose name comes from a combination of the words - 'Sound Nippon') seems to be going after the wrong market. They should be pursuing the young and NOT rich, and leave the rich to Apple.
Approximately 75% of the world's people are under the age of 25 and don't have a whole lot of money. This is the market that Sony should be targeting. Instead they are using DRM, proprietary formats, and tie-ins to product from other Sony divisions to capture a chunk of the world's recorded music marketplace. Stupid, because the vast majority of people who would be buying Sony products won't because they can't afford them.
Myself, for example. I get CD audio recordings from the public library. Then I rip them using open source software onto a $20 5 gig hard drive on a $150 PC. The recordings that I would want to hear again at some point in the future I write to a $0.09 CD-R blank (that holds 100 songs in 192kbps MP3 format) using a $25 CDRW. Then I play them outside through a $20 CDR/RW capable MP3 CD player. Every device in the process costs less than an order-of-magnitude of the price that Sony (and Apple) charges for the same utility. If someone can make the equipment profitable for this price then Sony certainly can. And I live in the wealthy western first-world. Outside the US, the EU, Japan, and Canada, people have to work ten times as many hours for the money to buy the same level of equipment.
Sony needs to relearn that innovation is as much a process of getting new equipment affordable as it is a process of designing new toys.
By the way, am I stealing music? No, almost all of the stuff that I listen to I bought many years ago in different formats (45 RPM vinyl, or 33RPM LP). I bought it, I can listen to it.
Or, I listened to the songs so many times on the radio and listened to the commercials so many times that I own the right to have a copy of the song by having listened to the hundreds of radio commercials. That concept of ownership may seem unusual but it is no more strange than the various types of music ownership devised by the media companies. I absolutely, totally, and completely refuse to accept the legitimacy of the laws regarding music copyright because those laws were written by RIAA lobbyists specifically for the sole benefit of the media companies. When the media companies recognize the principle of fair use and limited copyright periods, I will negotiate the concept of music ownership with them. But they never will recognize these principles, so I feel no obligation to honor the legitimacy of the laws that they wrote to enrich themselves.
The utility that loads the song files could convert them on the fly.
Really, I'm not trying to be clever with my signature.
Excellent, this fits perfectly onto my list of SONY's proprietary standards/devices that failed to catch on!
Betamax - Failure
ATRAC- Failure
MiniDisc - Failure (at least in the U.S.)
MemoryStick - Failure
Blu-ray - probably going to be a failure because SONY is behind it
Slashdot = -1 Redundant, Asperger, kdawson FUD, Libertarian, and Linux
10-15 million mp3 chipsets are sold each year.
m ay 2004/tc20040527_8900_tc056.htm
Apple is playing with the numbers.
LOOKING ABROAD. According to one of those chipmakers and to industry analysts, worldwide shipments of digital-music-player chips hit about 15 million last year. An April, 2004, report from investment bank CIBC on this market estimated global sales of flash and hard-drive music players at 17 million. If that's true, then the 1.5 million iPods sold in 2003 gives Apple 8% to 10% of the global market. In fact, SigmaTel alone sold 9 million chips specifically designed for rival digital-music players, dwarfing iPod sales.
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/
Sony used to be great, but now their stuff is mostly overrated. If you search reviews on their products, you'll see that their mid level to lower level electronics don't get reviewed as well as many other companies' products. They sell now more because of name than actually quality. The other electronic companies: Toshiba, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasonic, Yamaha, etc, have caught up, if not surpassed Sony in relative quality. When you buy Sony now, you're paying a premium for the name over any real improvement in quality over the competition.
Before I make any major purchase, I like to do a lot of research. And from what I've read on reviews from experts to users, you can't take for granted that they are the best.
But don't take my word for it. Take a look for yourself.
They do make excellent products, but they always hold themselves back with their proprietary formats and media. You either own all Sony toys and everything works, or own one, and have it costs you more, with limited compatibility. For example, I currently use 512mb SD Digi cards for my Camcorder, Palm Pilot and my brother's MP3 Player. I use 512MB and 4GB (HD) CF Cards for my laptop, and digital Cameras. If I want to get the Sony 5mp DSC-V1 I saw on sale as an open box value for $360 at a local camera store, I now need to get a whole new memory card (I wanted 512mb or more, for a memory stick Pro it would run me $200+). So what did I do? I got the Canon PowerShot S50 at the same store for $399 because it used CF cards. I always thought they made standards for a reason, Sony doesn't seem to think so.
Only a moment's thought should reveal that this must be true. Skimming the linked article doesn't reveal any such connection. Sigh.
All the music players Sony releases use their weird compression method which requires converting MP3s to their own format. Think about why this is, and consider how much money Sony makes selling music and movies.
You too are playing with numbers. For some reason people are putting MP3 decoder chips in all kinds of products like Digital Cameras, that means that not every MP3 decoder chip sold translates to an MP3 player produced. Moreover, an MP3 player produced does not equate to an MP3 player sold to a consumer.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Here is a very interesting take on the new line of Sony players, shamelessly stolen from As the Apple Turns:
Okay, so it's been tough, but you've finally managed to stop yourself from taking Dell up on its kind offer to crush your iPod into a thin paste in exchange for $100 off one of its own stellar music players. Good for you. Only now you're finding yourself tempted by those new players that Sony introduced yesterday-- in particular the NW-HD1 Network Walkman. As faithful viewer Mike Scherer pointed out, MacMinute reports that the NW-HD1 (catchy name) has a 20 GB hard drive, but weighs only 4 ounces-- almost thirty percent less than a 20 GB iPod, and only about half an ounce more than a miniPod with a mere 4 GB storage capacity. Trust us, size does matter, as through-the-roof miniPod sales will attest; Dell's player is a clunky slab by comparison, and when we had the misfortune to encounter a 40 GB Nomad Zen last weekend, we mistook the thing for a brick wrapped in tin foil.
Oh, but the temptation doesn't stop at size; whereas the iPod claims 8 hours of use per battery charge, the NW-HD1 boasts 30. What's more, since a 20 GB iPod goes for $399 and Sony's minuscule new player will sell for "less than $400", pricing will likely be a dead heat. So let's recap, here; for the same price as an iPod, Sony offers a smaller and lighter player with gallons more juice per charge, the same size hard disk, and-- did we mention this?-- the ability to store 8,000 more songs. Really! See? Apple claims its 20 GB iPod will put 5,000 songs in your pocket, while Sony's press release insists that the NW-HD1 will hold "up to 13,000 four-minute songs." No wonder you're feeling tempted.
Well, it's cold shower time, kiddies. First of all, any sort of song capacity comparison is a joke, since a 20 GB hard drive is a 20 GB hard drive. Sony's drives aren't enchanted by a dusting of magical pixie dust before leaving the factory or anything. (At least, if they are, you'd expect Sony to play that up as a differentiating factor.) The difference in numbers here is that Apple bases its song count on 128 Kbps AAC files, while Sony's tally assumes "songs recorded at 48 kilobits per second." Yes, 48 Kbps. Considering how many people whine that even 128 Kbps AAC files don't sound good enough, we're going to go out on a limb and assume that 48 Kbps songs in any format are probably going to sound like a portable handheld AM radio playing from the bottom of a well while a few dozen people pop bubble wrap nearby.
And here's the real deal-breaker: about that format? Turns out that Sony's decided to go with its proprietary ATRAC3 format... and nothing else. While Apple pushes AAC pretty heavily (it's the only thing it sells at the iTunes Music Store), at least the iPod can also play AIFF files, WAVs, the new Apple Lossless format, and probably most importantly of all, good ol' MP3s. If you get an NW-HD1, though, you'll have to transcode your entire music library into ATRAC3 before you can carry it around with you, and believe us when we tell you that you're not going to want to do that.
See, aside from the time you'd have to invest, there's the little matter of the fact that, quality-wise, the ATRAC3 format apparently sucks eggs whole through a Crazy Straw. For evidence, we point you towards the results of Roberto Amorim's latest public listening test, conducted just a couple of months ago. The test had dozens of listeners rate the same pieces of music encoded into several digital music formats at or around 128 kbps, and when the results were tabulated, ATRAC3 at 132 kbps came out dead last, having "surprised by its bad performance." So if listeners judge 132 kbps ATRAC3 (incidentally, the format and bitrate of songs sold by Sony's Connect downloadable music store) to sound so much worse than 128 kbps AAC, what do you suppose 48 kbps ATRAC must sound like? (Three hints: radio; well; bubble wrap.)
So while Sony's new player may indeed be, as MacMinute calls it, "the closest
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
Okay, so it's been tough, but you've finally managed to stop yourself from taking Dell up on its kind offer to crush your iPod into a thin paste in exchange for $100 off one of its own stellar music players. Good for you. Only now you're finding yourself tempted by those new players that Sony introduced yesterday-- in particular the NW-HD1 Network Walkman. As faithful viewer Mike Scherer pointed out, MacMinute reports that the NW-HD1 (catchy name) has a 20 GB hard drive, but weighs only 4 ounces-- almost thirty percent less than a 20 GB iPod, and only about half an ounce more than a miniPod with a mere 4 GB storage capacity. Trust us, size does matter, as through-the-roof miniPod sales will attest; Dell's player is a clunky slab by comparison, and when we had the misfortune to encounter a 40 GB Nomad Zen last weekend, we mistook the thing for a brick wrapped in tin foil.
Oh, but the temptation doesn't stop at size; whereas the iPod claims 8 hours of use per battery charge, the NW-HD1 boasts 30. What's more, since a 20 GB iPod goes for $399 and Sony's minuscule new player will sell for "less than $400", pricing will likely be a dead heat. So let's recap, here; for the same price as an iPod, Sony offers a smaller and lighter player with gallons more juice per charge, the same size hard disk, and-- did we mention this?-- the ability to store 8,000 more songs. Really! See? Apple claims its 20 GB iPod will put 5,000 songs in your pocket, while Sony's press release insists that the NW-HD1 will hold "up to 13,000 four-minute songs." No wonder you're feeling tempted.
Well, it's cold shower time, kiddies. First of all, any sort of song capacity comparison is a joke, since a 20 GB hard drive is a 20 GB hard drive. Sony's drives aren't enchanted by a dusting of magical pixie dust before leaving the factory or anything. (At least, if they are, you'd expect Sony to play that up as a differentiating factor.) The difference in numbers here is that Apple bases its song count on 128 Kbps AAC files, while Sony's tally assumes "songs recorded at 48 kilobits per second." Yes, 48 Kbps. Considering how many people whine that even 128 Kbps AAC files don't sound good enough, we're going to go out on a limb and assume that 48 Kbps songs in any format are probably going to sound like a portable handheld AM radio playing from the bottom of a well while a few dozen people pop bubble wrap nearby.
And here's the real deal-breaker: about that format? Turns out that Sony's decided to go with its proprietary ATRAC3 format... and nothing else. While Apple pushes AAC pretty heavily (it's the only thing it sells at the iTunes Music Store), at least the iPod can also play AIFF files, WAVs, the new Apple Lossless format, and probably most importantly of all, good ol' MP3s. If you get an NW-HD1, though, you'll have to transcode your entire music library into ATRAC3 before you can carry it around with you, and believe us when we tell you that you're not going to want to do that.
See, aside from the time you'd have to invest, there's the little matter of the fact that, quality-wise, the ATRAC3 format apparently sucks eggs whole through a Crazy Straw. For evidence, we point you towards the results of Roberto Amorim's l
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
Why not paint it red?
XML causes global warming.
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These things are ATRAC only. No thanks Sony. Take your shitty music player back to the drawing board.
Seriously ATRAC got the worst rating for 128kbps in the Hydrogen Audio Forums competition. The worst! Does anyone want to spend $200 - $500 on a player that will only play the lowest of the low? I certainly don't. Rio karma plays ogg and mp3 and wma and flac if you want lossless. Sony is the king! They should be destroying Rio and Apple by making a player people want! They should support every possible format. Especially those that are free to support (vorbis and flac come to mind).
I owned a Sony NetMD walkman for a few years (I now own a 40gb iPod :). Their software to get songs on the device was absolute garbage, but there was some weird method in which it would convert your mp3s to ATRAC and put the DRM stuff on it, but you could just convert that mp3 again and then it would lose the "transfer count" on it. Seemed kinda dumb. I hated using it anyway.
In order to get MP3s on the device, I'd use a combination of things. I'd burn a cd with Nero's Image Writer, and then mount it using Nero's image mounter. Then, I'd use the NetMD SimpleBurner, which was a well designed program imho. Rip to the MD, umount and delete the image, and there you go. Still, takes a number of steps to get done.
I'll take my iPod over that any day.
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I visited the Sony trailer at Fair St. Louis this weekend. Their camera didn't work right (but after the staff crawled in the wires for 5 minutes, it started working again). The camcorder didn't work. Laptops were small & sexy, but pricey. That being said, we all know Sony is far behind Apply here. But, all it takes is a PSP (Playstation Portable) which includes some memory for songs, and we may have the iPod killer. If they can sell 10s of millions of Gameboys, and if Sony can win the handheld game market like they won the home console market, the PSP can take over the iPod and the gameboy. (lots of ifs, the NGage didn't quite win the phone and gameboy market)
I think Sony are getting gradually closer, and Apple must be at least a bit worried. Let's imagine a world where Sony (finally) drop ATRAC3+ only, and their Hi-MD devices and new HDD devices support MP3 natively and ATRAC3+ at whatever bitrate you desire. Given that the low end Hi-MD ships at 140UKP Sony could wipe out the Compact Flash competition in months with their cheap 1GB removable media. Much higher capacities are in the offing for MO as well. They are the only other vendor to offer integration with a online music store, which is a serious advantage over vendors like iRiver (despite their excellent hardware). The Connect store may suck now in comparison with ITMS, but heh, it's software, it can change quickly.
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I was once one of Sony's biggest cheerleaders out there. I loved their products. They were reasonably priced, functioned well and came with great customer service. I would go out of my way to buy the Sony product over a competitor's in many situations.
No more. In the last decade, I've bought Sony products that have failed well before they should have and I've had several decidedly unpleasant dealings with their customer service people who seemed far less interested in actually helping me than somehow convincing me that it was pretty much my own fault and I should just accept it. Amazingly bad service and their products seem to have gone downhill. Not only have I started buying products by their competitors, but I now intentionally avoid the Sony product if possible.
No idea what's gone so wrong with what was once a great company, but I wouldn't buy a Sony mp3 player over an iPod at a quarter of the price.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
This will fail. Why? Take for example my brother who has one of the older Sony Memory Gate players. He said to me that if he had have known that he'd have to convert his MP3's that he wouldn't have bought it. For that reason alone it will fail, then couple with the fact that Sony software sucks big time (as most bundled software does), I seriously doubt that this walkman will sell well at all. On top of all that, ATRAC has DRM which will instantly turn most geeks off.
Take the new PSP. Yeah, it looks sexy as hell, can play movies, music, and games. But no mp3 support? 2 hr battery life? So what am I left with? A portable ps2 that launches with a card game, a sequel to an FF game that didn't need one, and a bunch of ancient ps1 games? No thanks.
I know the "all in one" is the main selling point, but I have an iPod. I have a cell phone. I have a GBA, and I'm going to have a laptop soon. The N-gage had all in one functionality too, and look where that is.
And, on that note, Sony's name recognition isn't going to help it much - Nokia is the world's most well known cell phone maker, and that amounted to a pile of shit when the Ngage bombed. Why? Because it was overpriced, the games sucked, and nobody wanted to watch movies or listen to music on such a device.
Even the Playstation is heading downhill. It'll always sell as long as it has Final Fantasy, GTA, and Gran Turismo. But the hardware is both cheap and inferior, and the games as of late are lacking in quality. I can only think of 7-8 PS2 exclusives I'm really waiting for in the next year and a half, and of those, ONE is not a sequel. And the recent EA/XBL deal is going to throw a wrench into the PS2 workings even further.
So yeah. The PSP is nice looking, but there are better alternatives out there. The PS2 is all black and nifty and it plays dvds, but why should Sony care about making awesome games or hardware? After all, that money is better spent on building lavish estates for Paris Hilton to have record release parties at!
In short, Sony is pulling a Microsoft (dominance through marketing, not quality), Microsoft is pulling a PS1-era Sony (dominance through quality), and Nintendo is just sitting back and pulling an Apple. (Delivering great stuff to a niche market.)
Yeah, I bought a NetMD about 2 years ago when they were first released in Japan, and it was the most frustrating, annoying experience ever! The software was so inadequate. I would try to do something, that in Windows, is common, like right click for menu options, etc and the software just wouldn't do it. And the fact that I had to transfer my MP3 collection into Sony's Atrac format just added another step in the frustration process. I haven't used that NetMD player in over two years and I wish I could get my money back. I now use a Creative Muvo for that quick transfer and out the door move, or an iRiver for traveling with more tunes. Oh yeah, one more thing-every Sony product I've purchased in the past die's at around the 5 year mark..I could set my watch to it without fail.... I will never buy another Sony Product
The big difference between Sony and its mp3 player competition like Apple, Rio, etc... is that Sony is a music label. These other companies don't have to worry about upholding copyrights on music they've created.
Seriously, iPod already took the title of 21 century walkman. Sony is too late to the party. Sony is a company really going downhill. It's so late to the flat panel TV market, it had to ask Samsung to OEM flat panel TV with Sony's logo on.
What Sony has proven in the 80s/90s is a Asian company with good engineering can do well in the global market and this is a strategy closely followed by Samsung and soon a couple Chinese brands. Samsung is now branded itself as "Sony quality at reasonable price."
If Sony doesn't pull itself out of its engineering centric management style and adapt a brand management style, it will screw itself over and Sony is likely to become RCA of the 21st century.
This is the engineering centric management style of Sony that gave rise of Sony in the 20th century and will be the cause of its downfall in the 21st century. As you said, Sony has been creating a lot of failures and out of the failures, two big successes: Walkman and PS. Sony allows its diverse groups of engineering to compete among themselves to come up with the best products and it creates the engineering powerness of Sony which leaded to its brand in the past.
In the 80s/90s, consumer electronics were more about whether it COULD BE DONE and we paid primium for companies who could DO IT. However, we are in the 21st century, a century is likely to be remembered as Wal-Mart century. We shopped for VALUE: products that give us the best VALUE: good functionalities at reasonable price.
Sony has become too big to pay such a risk game. PS was created in related low budget but look at the stake Sony is throwing at PS3. We are looking at Billions of dollars investments. It's really too big an investment to be put in the hand of engineers who just want to create neat things!
Any form of DRM plugged into a device will make me not buy it. The people who buy such a piece of shit, are euroamerican morons willing to take it up the ass with a smile on their face any time a company like Sony gets a boner. Apple seems to be ok and their players are really appealing especially scince the Mini. I consider a player that has moving parts to be too sensible for people who are really mobile (Moving your ass between the building and the car doesen't mean that you are actually moving your ass.) Anyway the competition is not to be ignored. Look at JetAudio, iRiver, Philips, BenQ etc. I'm from Europe, the east side. I'll bite your neck tonight, belive it and pay $$$.$$$.$$$.$$$ to see the movie. Jackass.
No one cares who has more manufacturing experience - its design experience that matters. Apple's is even more storied than Sony's. See BusinessWeek's design awards over the last ten years. Any Taiwanese OEM can crank out the actual device.
- Sony already has its own music store
- Sony already has its own removable media, that is cross-compatable with every Sony device
- Sony already has inroads into the home theatre market and portable gaming market
No one cares about the Sony music store. No one cares about MD and Memory Stick. What does PS2 have to do with portable music?
Look at it this way - Sony could release a device, right now, that would be as sleek as the iPod, cost less, have automatic hooks into its music store, and not only has an onboard HD but accepts SOny Memory Sticks, so you can download songs directly from Sony Connect into your Walkman, then copy them over to your Clie or PSP with 0 effort.
YET THEY HAVEN'T. No one cares about "would have, could have".
Besides - what if Sony just decided all its music on all its labels was no longer allowed to be sold at iTMS? Bye bye iPod.
No, bye bye Sony when it breaks distribution deals inked with every one of its artists by limiting the distribution channels.
I'm sorry your stock has cratered over the last two years as the Dow has gone up 50%. Are all Sony employees as clueful?
i dont really know what the big deal is with ATRAC3 conversion, are you really going to notice the difference through a pair of tinny headphones?
and its got great batteries.... supposidly (ive had good experience with sony batteries, the infolithium on my digital8 still gives the same charge that it did 2 years ago - and gives the time remaining aswell, which is a superb idea)
30 hours is a lot better then 8 hours
looks pretty stylish imho too, although i do wish sony would leave theier electronics division away from its music and film divisions
as for reliability, ive had only one broken sony product (broke during a house move, a big massive black 80's hi fi, was great) and while the quality has gone down, i feel its still a lot better then most otehr companies
i own a minidisc, and while the software is bad, its still manigeable. i love the MD btw, great battery life, and you can record from an tv or radio, which is prett cool
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Sony is hoping these things will sell to adults (that's how they get around not supporting MP3's) that having jumped on the digital music boat.
Then they need to make their software easier to use than the MD player software was. I decided to try a MD player a few months back since I'd kinda wanted one for years. The software was hideous, it was a total pain to get music onto it, and I even had to read the manual to figure out HOW. Needless to say the software was uninstalled and the MD player returned quite quickly. If they have the same experience in store for buyers of their hard-drive based Walkman it'll be a quite spectacular dud.I think the MD was a great idea at one point, but it never took off, at least in America and probably Europe, for reasons that I'm not sure of; nonetheless, these days I think hard drive-based players are the way to go, and the iPod continues to be the best.
As I mentioned in my original post, if someone would just release an iPod-killer for $100 less, I'd be a happier man, even if I do admire Apple's computer hardware from a distance.
As an aside, I added you to my friends list; I tried unsuccessfully to find an e-mail address on your website, stereogeometry.com. BTW, how was the Ginza Apple store?