Half-Life 2 Retail to Require Steam Activation

Gee, wonderful Valve. by eviltypeguy · 2004-10-23 04:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

I just love how Valve changed what they originally said about this...

All hail Valve, our next Microsoft Product Activation-like overlord.

Re:Gee, wonderful Valve. by eviltypeguy · 2004-10-23 05:20 · Score: 4, Informative

They originally said you could install the game and play singleplayer without 'activating'. But once you wanted to update the game or play mutiplayer you had to activate it via Steam.
Re:Gee, wonderful Valve. by cgenman · 2004-10-23 08:11 · Score: 1

Agreed. You can get away with a lot more when you're selling a word processor than when you're selling a videogame. Having seen Steam's "performance" over the years, I swore that I would never install it until it became A: minimalist B: stable and C: open to any vendors.

I'd also been planning on buying Half-Life 2 when it was released. But with Doom 3 out and Halo 2 coming out, I don't see how they can require Steam and feel they can get away with it in the competitive marketplace. It's amazing that in this situation Microsoft is actually the non-evil one, but there it is.

I can understand their desire to protect their revenue stream, but not via steam. Don't make me install your poorly written bloated proprietary closed sales gimmock just to play something I've paid you for. Stop being RealPlayer, or suffer their fate.

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The ______ Agenda
Re:Gee, wonderful Valve. by I(rispee_I(reme · 2004-10-23 09:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

I seem to remember them saying that there would be an option for the teeming millions of us who hate Steam and all that it stands for, way back in the day.
Re:Gee, wonderful Valve. by I(rispee_I(reme · 2004-10-23 13:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

Here's the link. Valve is basically pulling a 180 in order to get everyone to use Steam, since presumably most gamers (who like to have control over their computers) would opt for the Steam-free version.
Re:Gee, wonderful Valve. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 21:21 · Score: 0

"I can understand their desire to protect their revenue stream, but not via steam."
At the moment, the Counter-Strike : Source game, can be played on-line, without buying it.
The crack (to call it the least) also installs a Steam-emulator (without the crashes though ;) ) ; which makes it possible to join the normal servers.
Steam being a protection to VALVe's revenue is thereby an impossible solution.

Team Fortress 2? by avalys · 2004-10-23 04:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Q. What's the latest status on Team Fortress 2?

Doug Lombardi: After we announced TF2 on the HL1 tech, we made the decision to move it to the Source engine. It is still in development and we will be announcing more on that title soon."

Don't bother, no one cares any more. You blew it.

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This space intentionally left blank.

Re:Team Fortress 2? by Rayonic · 2004-10-23 06:14 · Score: 1

And yet here people are still posting about it.

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[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
Re:Team Fortress 2? by supabeast! · 2004-10-23 07:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

Agreed. I might have cared about TF2 before the online gaming world had moved to CS, but at this point it would just be another weird mod that pisses me off...
Re:Team Fortress 2? by colinramsay · 2004-10-23 08:27 · Score: 0, Troll

Are you really that stupid? TF2 will be *huge*, the fact that you don't like Valve will make no difference, believe it or not.

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Free iPods - now in the UK!
Re:Team Fortress 2? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 10:09 · Score: 1, Funny

So will Duke Nukem Forever.

Glad to see... by Godeke · 2004-10-23 04:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

that they have given me an excuse to not purchase the game. I use my machine for programming, with a bit of light gaming on the side. I'm not interested in Steam (I get my rear end handed to me in multiplay) and if I have to sell my machine's soul to their marketing drones, well they can take their delayed, litigated and now "strings attached" game and shove it.

Sad really, reviews are high and I loved the first one. I guess I will be more productive next month than I expected.

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Sig under construction since 1998.

Re:Glad to see... by sgant · 2004-10-23 04:57 · Score: 1, Insightful

Yeah, big pain in the ass. But you know, you could register with Steam giving bogus info then just block steam from accessing the Net.

But look at Steam this way, it's just a Valve game launcher. It's how you launch Valve games. That's how Valve does it.

It's minor. A very minor thing and yet people act like Valve is asking for the their first born child! Let's see what happens first next month before we start jumping to conclusions.

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"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Re:Glad to see... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:02 · Score: 0

It's minor. A very minor thing and yet people act like Valve is asking for the their first born child!

Just because it's minor in nature doesn't mean that it's totally unacceptable.
Re:Glad to see... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:20 · Score: 0

Just because it's minor in nature doesn't mean that it's totally unacceptable.

Did you mean: Just because it's minor in nature doesn't mean that it's NOT totally unacceptable.
Re:Glad to see... by cjpez · 2004-10-23 05:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

I dunno, I don't think it's that minor. They've done a couple of things here which violate a couple of things I feel are integral to a single-player game. First off, a single player game just shouldn't have to talk to the internet. Suppose I didn't have a connection where I was. Suppose I just moved and my connection's not installed yet. Suppose I have restrictive firewall settings on that I don't want to have to bypass just to play a game against the computer. It's just unacceptable.
The second, and to me more annoying thnig, is that they've just made it impossible to install and play the game once they go belly-up. As soon as Steam stops becoming available, nobody can play the game on a new installation without hacking it. That's just ridiculous. I still pull out old DOS games from when I was a dorkling in junior high, and I expect them to just install and WORK (well, provided the DOS emulators are up to snuff, anyway). Would they do so if they had to dial up and talk to some server from the 80s that doesn't exist anymore? No, they wouldn't.
All in all, a horrible decision. I was so excited about this game, too.

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Al Qaeda has ninjas!
Re:Glad to see... by Txiasaeia · 2004-10-23 05:23 · Score: 1

Sandbox and crack, my friend. This will not be a problem 10 years down the road.

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Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Re:Glad to see... by baywulf · 2004-10-23 05:24 · Score: 1, Funny

I gave up playing games on my PC. I bought one of those new PS/2 systems and hooked up to the TV card on my Linux system. The PS/2 display will be in another window in X. Now I can switch between playing games and browsing, etc on one system and I don't need a noisy expensive video card on my PC anymore. Console games are not so expensive anyway if you wait a little while. I see plenty of games under $20 since new stuff comes up on a weekly basis.
Re:Glad to see... by cjpez · 2004-10-23 05:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

Right, obviously if you either go to the trouble of hacking it yourself, or just wait a few hours for the inevitable Clever Hacker to do it for you, then you're good to go. The thing is that I shouldn't have to resort to methods which can probably be construed as illegal by our lovely judicial system just to play a game I purchased against my own computer.

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Al Qaeda has ninjas!
Re:Glad to see... by igrp · 2004-10-23 05:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's minor. A very minor thing and yet people act like Valve is asking for the their first born child!
It very well may be minor but it's still an annoyance. I can understand their desire to protect their IP, especially after their ridiculous security policies have resulted in several breaches.
But this will simply not prevent determined people from pirating or leaking the game. It will, however, inconvenience those people who buy a legitimate copy of the game.
I guess the old "some people don't have Internet/broadband/whatever access" argument doesn't hold a lot of water anymore, especially with regard to the intended HL2 audience. But the fact remains that some people simply don't want to forced to active their software because they're opposed to the idea of having to give out private information in general, or just don't want to be bothered or simply find the whole concept of treating a paying customer like a criminal unless he or she proves otherwise iniquitous.
Yes, I suppose you could give Valve fake information. But I why am I supposed to give them any personal information in the first place? Compare it to Windows XP. Microsoft's product activation scheme hasn't prevented one determined individual from pirating their software. Sure, it has raised the bar so-to-speak for some "casual, wannabe software pirates" (which was probably what they were trying to do). They also managed to piss off millions of legitimate users in the process.
I sure hope they put a big fat red warning sticker on the boxes. Hardcore gamers will still want to play HL2, even if they have to give their firstborn to Valve (and that probably goes for a lot of not-so-hardcore gamers, too). But that way, people at least have a choice and don't have to find out the hard way (ie. after installing the game) that they can't play the game they just purchased without Valve's blessing.
Re:Glad to see... by irc.goatse.cx+troll · 2004-10-23 06:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Its been like that for a long time, and is why I don't purchase games. I'm not going to jump through hoops to get something I paid for working when its infinately easier to download the fully working version. It would be like if buying a cd required you to fill out 5 pages of paperwork (which isnt too far off from what I predict the future will be like) -- If I payed for it, it should JustWork(TM)

Thats why the only games worth what they charge are made by ID. Even their cdkey auth is more lax allowing much easier use for lan parties and such. In the ~10+ years ID has been in buisness, I don't think they've ever required you keep the cd/floppy that you installed off of. Why? Because ID consists of gamers, not buisnessmen.
Not that they don't make good buisnessmen(I've seen pictures of carmack's car.), but they put their gaming side first and don't release something that isn't worth playing. Compare that to Valve, who's been milking the same engine AND STORYLINE for ages. No, Valve, Playing as some stupid dude in a vest and a helmet won't make your game interesting again.

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Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
Re:Glad to see... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 06:48 · Score: 0

But they own the game, they can do whatever they want with it. /ip apologyst
Re:Glad to see... by accelleron · 2004-10-23 08:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

My preference would be that Valve release a patch that makes the game playable without activation and/or steam upon release.

At this point, though, Valve can go one of two paths:

1. The "Duke Nukem, meet WinXP" path that will kill their sales (and mods) upon termination of their studio

or

2. The patch way. Sadly enough, releasing a patch that disables activation is in their best interests - alternatively someone else will release one that disables activation, along with minor features like CD-Key protection.

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Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Re:Glad to see... by Godeke · 2004-10-23 08:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually it *is* a big deal. I have some games that required activation from a few years ago where the company decided to stop issuing activation codes. Thanks, but no thanks, they can go to hell before I buy another game that requires activation.

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Sig under construction since 1998.
Re:Glad to see... by thrash242 · 2004-10-23 10:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

I don't condone downloading illegal copies of games, but I do agree that anything more than inserting the CD(s) and entering a CD code is too invasive. Particularly for singleplayer.

Most games I have played aren't bad. At the worst, for some games you have to set up an account, but most games just require a CD code and you're ready to play.

Singleplayer, however, should not require internet access at all. This is ridiculous, and I may just not get HL2 because of it.

However, that means I will do without it rather than downloading it. Unlike many people, I learned that you either pay for something or do without. Getting games is not a right.
Re:Glad to see... by MindStalker · 2004-10-23 12:59 · Score: 1

Exactly, but I also have the right to not buy the game. And I think thats the point people are making that they disagree with this enough that they arn't buying.

(Obviously I don't have the right to steal it either)
Re:Glad to see... by elmegil · 2004-10-23 14:38 · Score: 1

I can't run that copy of Peter Gabriel's XPLORA on any modern OS either, because it was hard coded to look for some long-dead version of Quicktime. What's your point?

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7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Re:Glad to see... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 06:22 · Score: 0

Product activation and other protection methods are useless, and devs know it, it's the management/marketing idiots that are the problem. It won't stop /anyone/, even if it requires a great amount of skill to crack it, once it has been cracked anyone who can copy a CD can pass it around.
Re:Glad to see... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 12:49 · Score: 0

Actually, I can play my old games in emulators and such. For example, I use DosBox to play M.A.X. on my XP machine. It works great, sound and all. Likewise, that CD would work if you set up an emulated environment that was compatible.

Contast that with what Steam will do: once Valve decides the new version is where you will be they stop handing out codes. In fact, I have no proof one way or another, but there seems to be little to stop them from issuing an "update" that kills your game in favor of Half Life 3.
Re:Glad to see... by Warpedcow · 2004-10-24 13:54 · Score: 1

The second, and to me more annoying thnig, is that they've just made it impossible to install and play the game once they go belly-up. As soon as Steam stops becoming available, nobody can play the game on a new installation without hacking it.

This just isn't true. While you do need to go online to create a steam account ONCE, any time after that you can login to Steam in "offline mode" and play ANY of your purchased Steam games in single player mode WITHOUT an internet connection, or even the existence of "online Steam" at all.

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moo
Re:Glad to see... by cjpez · 2004-10-24 15:43 · Score: 1

Can I do so on a new computer which never had Steam installed on it in the first place?

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Al Qaeda has ninjas!
Re:Glad to see... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 00:49 · Score: 0

If that's the case then Steam is more miraculous than I thought it would be...
Re:Glad to see... by Warpedcow · 2004-10-25 02:38 · Score: 1

Can I do so on a new computer which never had Steam installed on it in the first place?

No, I don't think you can. Valve probably doesn't care since I'm guessing the number of potential customers who have absolutely zero internet access is less than 1%. However, if you have an older computer with steam, you could just copy the steam folder over. Or borrow a friends computer/work computer with internet access to install steam (600K) and create an account, then copy the steam folder over.

Anyway, you're posting to slashdot, which means you have SOME sort of internet access, right? ;)

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moo
Re:Glad to see... by cjpez · 2004-10-25 02:48 · Score: 1

Yeah, sure, I've got internet access, and right now Valve is still going strong and their Steam servers still exist. How about 10 years from now when Valve may not be here, and those Steam servers may not exist anymore, and I want to pull out some old machine and play a bit of HL2? The CDs (or DVDs or whatever) that came with the game are not sufficient to play the game, and in fact in that scenario the only thing that *will* make it sufficient is the possibility that you can still find a hack to get around the activation crap.
The point is, I shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops just to play a game I purchased when all I care about is the single-player component. I'm not saying that there aren't workarounds, I'm just saying that I shouldn't have to worry about finding a workaround, and I shouldn't have to worry about the fact that Valve is releasing a game with an expiration date built into it.
It's not even really a solution if Valve eventually comes out with their own patch which causes the game to not require activation, because when I'm sitting here 10 years from now wanting to reminisce about an old game, all I'm going to have for sure are the discs the game came on.

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Al Qaeda has ninjas!
Re:Glad to see... by Damvan · 2004-10-25 05:01 · Score: 1

How dare these companies make me jump through hoops just to play a game. When I want to pull out my copy of Archon and play it I should be able to. How dare they require me to have a 5 1/4 floppy to play, they should provide me a CD based version 20 years after the fact!!
Re:Glad to see... by cjpez · 2004-10-25 05:16 · Score: 1

Er, but see, if you *have* a 5 1/4" floppy drive lying around, and a computer capable of running it, then you *could* play Archon. And that's a good thing, because at least for the sake of this hypothetical situation, you paid for all of these components.
If Electronic Arts had required you to dial into some BBS to activate the game though, at the time, I'm guessing that you'd be stuck scouring the internet for a crack as opposed to actually using the product you paid for.
I'm not saying this is some social injustice or anything, of course they have a right to do this. And I've got a right to be pissed off enough about it to not purchase the game.

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Al Qaeda has ninjas!
Re:Glad to see... by |/|/||| · 2004-10-25 06:17 · Score: 1

So, you're saying that this stupid decision by valve is justified by someone else's stupid design? That doesn't make any sense.
My opinion? If I buy a game and it won't work without talking to somebody else's server, then I don't own the game. I want to buy Half life 2, but I WILL NOT buy it if this is a requirement. Sure, I could probably find a crack on the day the game is released, but that's not the point. I'm not going to give them my money if they're going to go in such a stupid direction. The only option left is to pirate the game, which I would really prefer not to have to do.
End result? They're encouraging piracy - by encouraging cracks to proliferate, if nothing else.

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[javac] 100 errors
Re:Glad to see... by elmegil · 2004-10-25 06:51 · Score: 1

No, I'm saying that claiming that your whole issue with this design is that you can't guarantee you'll be able to run the game in perpetuity is stupid.

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7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Re:Glad to see... by |/|/||| · 2004-10-25 07:03 · Score: 1

Call it a stupid issue if you want, but it's the issue that will stop me from buying the game.

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[javac] 100 errors
Re:Glad to see... by Godeke · 2004-10-27 02:57 · Score: 1

Why do you see wanting to use something you purchase for as long as you want as stupid? I'm stupid because I want to play M.A.X.? It is an *excellent* turn based strategy game, something which until Massive Assult came out, I suspected that the industry couldn't release anymore because of all the twitch driven gameplay that dominated the market.

Am I supposed to roll over and say "Wes, you stupid fuck, what do you need a turn based game for? Go play first person shooters like any other good lemming." Just because the industry doesn't want to produce games with half a brain anymore doesn't mean mine has rotted out.

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Sig under construction since 1998.
Re:Glad to see... by elmegil · 2004-10-27 03:36 · Score: 1

Why do you see wanting to use something you purchase for as long as you want as stupid?
It's not just random "something", it's A COMPUTER GAME. Computer games are, by their nature, ephemeral. Particularly, if you're bitching that you can't play the single player version without access to the Valve Steam servers, what are you thinking? Are you really going to play the single player game over and over and over again for the next decade, savoring just one more FRAG against the same Boss you learned to dominate two years ago?
You'll note, additionally, that I didn't say anyone was stupid for not wanting to have to connect to the servers ON PRINCIPLE (that whole what data are they transferring, etc thing, I can sympathize with). It's just that the PARTICULAR example of "I can't play it forever because their server might go away" is stupid. Feel free to not buy the game, but don't justify with lame excuses about not being able to play it forever.
As for your turn based straw man, get a life. I like turn based games too. Go check out Wesnoth or something and shut up.

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7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Re:Glad to see... by Godeke · 2004-10-27 04:36 · Score: 1

Well, I guess we will have to just disagree. I *don't* see computer games as "ephermeral". I see a good game as something that I will return to time and time again. We still play M.A.X. multiplayer, so I don't see how that is a straw man: my point with the reference is exactly this: "I play older games and I don't plan on buying any game that won't let me keep it if I actually enjoy it." Yes, Half Life is probably not one that I will replay (although I did replay Half Life a second time) often. But the argument is against encouraging this as a practice for game companies to adopt. I can still play Battle Isle. I will probably play Massive Assult for a long time. I can still play M.A.X. I couldn't play those if they were built on this type of technology.

Regarding the real straw man: I have to say that Wesnoth is a piece of trash which I have tried several times over it's development. *That* is a straw man: I should replace my *good* games with a *bad* game? I should simply agree that the industry is going to *enforce* an artificial "ephermeral" nature to the products I buy? I don't think so: I am going to vote with my pocket and avoid any game built on such a premise. If you have a problem with my decision to excercise free choice, well, I guess we disagree on what rights I have.

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Sig under construction since 1998.
Re:Glad to see... by elmegil · 2004-10-27 06:54 · Score: 1

We still play M.A.X. multiplayer, so I don't see how that is a straw man
THAT is not a straw man. However, it is also IRRELEVANT, given that I didn't mention anything about multiplayer.
The straw man was accusing me of having said ANYTHING about whether FPS was better than turn based strategy, as if I were calling you a fucking idiot by saying that people complaining that they can't play single player games in perpetuity because a server might go away are stupid. Um, hello? Your strategy game is NOT RELEVANT IN THIS DISCUSSION. IT ISN'T BUILT ON STEAM IS IT?

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7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Re:Glad to see... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-27 08:44 · Score: 0

Nice to see you picked up on the relevant part of his comment which was a refusal to sign up for a technology of game distribution and control. This guy isn't talking about FPS vs Turns vs RTS or anything like that. He is talking about the technology that controls how long he can enjoy a product. The fact that this product is FPS is irrelevant. If Steam takes off, it appears that his fear is that all games will have that kind of control built in, limiting the ability to play the next generation of games to the period that the vendor decides.

I would have to agree that vendor control of expiration of a game is probably something the companies would love. I doubt publishers (not developers) like to see old games played for sustained periods of time. It only takes away from the revenue stream of the new products.
Re:Glad to see... by elmegil · 2004-10-27 08:55 · Score: 1

I was commenting on the idiot, WAY UP THERE AT THE TOP, who said that his reason was that he couldn't play the game forever if the servers went away. Anyone trying to drag other arguments in along the way aren't even disagreeing with me, they're disagreeing with things that I'd actually agree with them on, if I cared that much about a computer game.
You're doing the same thing. You want to say "I hate this control issue", I won't disagree with you--it's a legitimate beef whether I agree with it or not. You say "But, but I can't play it FOREVER!" and you're being stupid.

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7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001

So, Steam is still good? by Drakino · 2004-10-23 04:36 · Score: 3, Interesting

Sounds like a move to try and get people to see Steam, and consider not buying the next Valve product in the stores.

Some ideas of Steam are nice, but I still don't like the idea of buying a product through it. Skipping the publishers is a bad thing, as they fund the new games. Sure, publishers need to treat the developers better, but to try and axe them out of the picture completely is a bad idea.

Re:So, Steam is still good? by Soul-Burn666 · 2004-10-23 05:22 · Score: 1

For a company that is already stable enough financially and well known (such as valve), they can figure out how to pay the development costs. If they sell their products only through a Steam like system, they can cut the costs of publishing and the percent they have to give the publishers.
If most of the sells will be through an online system, cutting off the publishers' share, they can earn much more money from it, easily cover the development costs and have enough money to develop the next game.
Any surplusses above that can go to lowering the price of the game, thus making users happier and probably increasing the number of legal copies of the software.
Moreover, if you buy it digitally, it means their database says you bought it, meaning you can download it whenever you want, in case you have an HD failure or the like. This is something that you can't usually do with physical distribution, as the publishers don't like giving away new media in case the media is rendered useless.

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^_^
Re:So, Steam is still good? by Txiasaeia · 2004-10-23 05:27 · Score: 1

Stardock has been releasing games online and offline for a while now, and their method is *much* less draconian than Steam's.

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Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Re:So, Steam is still good? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:56 · Score: 0

By your logic, the only quality music you could buy would be from big record labels; not indie local bands and the only movies worth watching would come from the major movie houses.

Some of the best games I've ever played have been downloaded directly from the developer and purchased directly from the developer. Publishers and distributors of games are an unneccesary and limiting step, just like music and movie publishers and distributors are bottlenecks. They limit the number of good games that ever see the light of day and focus on mass appeal to the common denomanator.

I also think people are being too paranoid. I'm one of those "keep your hands off my data" people, but I don't see what the big deal is here. So far, Steam is pretty cool and I like that when I login to play CounterStrike, I know that everyone (including myself) is playing with the latest fixes automatically, seamlessly and painlessly updated during login. This made fixing the %n exploit and a number of other problems pretty nice this past week.

The only problem I do have with it would be that I want to be sure I can play HL2 and other single player games without an internet connection. Maybe I want to play on my laptop while traveling? The other is that it would be nice if a large company like Valve said "since we are increasing our profit margin by cutting out the publisher, packaging, shipping, distribution expenses... we will sell our games for a reduced cost from the $50 store-value".

I'm sure they currently have a contract with their publisher that prohibitis them from selling the game to people cheaper than their publisher does, though. Still - it would be nice.

By the way, not only did I buy one copy but I bought a second for my brother. I guess the spookie-ookies at Valve are going to haxor my boxors now and control all my data through Stream. Soon they'll be ordering women's panties through Fredericks of Hollywood online for me without my knowledge. THEY ARE SO TEH EVIL NOW!

Good god, people.
Re:So, Steam is still good? by antigrimace · 2004-10-24 06:33 · Score: 1

Pure Gold! Rational thought is so nice to hear now and again.
Re:So, Steam is still good? by abandonment · 2004-10-24 13:02 · Score: 1

half-life 1 was funded entirely by Valve, in exchange for a much higher royalty at retail sales.

half-life 2 is entirely funded by valve as well. same with any id game etc.

you make it seem like the 'poor poor publishers' don't deserve to be cut out of the loop, after decades of screwing game developers out of royalties.

the game industry is at exactly the same point that the record and film industry are - the 'middle men', ie the publishers, record companies, production companies etc - who used to have a complete lock on the retail market, suddenly find their business models completely obsolete...

aaawww...the poor poor suits won't be able to give themselves another multi-billion dollar raise this year...the poor guys...

in theory, steam is a great idea, should hopefully kick-start the bypassing of publishers for the game industry - however, valve's implementation of the idea just shows how ex-microsoft all of the original valve people are.

these kinds of 'activation' schemes and the privacy invasions that seem to be regular occurences for games wouldn't fly in any other industry. gamers need to learn to put down the crack pipe that is the next big game and be willing to make decisions with their pocketbook - ie don't submit to this kind of idiocy, don't support it, do not recommend these games to your non-technical friends...or, even better, educate them about these issues...

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Gekido's Lair

Argument for piratation? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 04:39 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sorry Valve, but I have no intention of letting Steam ever tough my PC. I will buy your game (if it turns out to be worth it), and I will acquire a crack to enable it.

Don't fuck over your customers. Things will get much worse.

Re:Argument for piratation? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 16:50 · Score: 0

If you don't ever want to install Steam, then don't buy Half-Life 2.

Buying the game then getting a crack for it is basically giving money to Valve to fuck you in the ass.

Won't stop piracy by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 04:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

This'll barely even slow the warezers down. I bet there'll be a crack out within a week of release, if there isn't one already.

Well, another game I won't be buying. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 04:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

If I'm going to be treated like a copyright infringer, I'll just wait for the crack.

Re:Well, another game I won't be buying. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 13:13 · Score: 0

Yeah seriously, why the fuck do the people that BUY THE GAME have to put up with this crap? I might as well just download a cracked version.
Re:Well, another game I won't be buying. by NanoGator · 2004-10-23 13:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

"If I'm going to be treated like a copyright infringer, I'll just wait for the crack."

I wanna know why some companies out there think they'll make more money when they provide less of what a customer wants?

--
"Derp de derp."
Re:Well, another game I won't be buying. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 04:27 · Score: 0

God damn, the Steam thing isn't a big deal. You just want any excuse you can to not pay for the game...even if it didn't involve Steam you would come up with some other excuse. You are an asshole and a moron and you get modded insightful for breaking the law. Good job Slashdot, way to show you have no class once again.
Re:Well, another game I won't be buying. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 05:44 · Score: 0

Then you never go into a department store, or Walmart, or Target? Because, you know with all those security tags and cameras, they are treating you like a shoplifter. Or the TSA treating you like a terrorist because they search your bags?

Must be terrible to have everyone treat you like a criminal.

I can see the game returns now by happyhippy · 2004-10-23 04:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

from the average public joe.
"Hey mister, this game wont work. Can I exchange it?"

Re:I can see the game returns now by vegetablespork · 2004-10-23 04:47 · Score: 1

Sorry, no returns on opened software. You'll have to take it up with the manufacturer.

--
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
Re:I can see the game returns now by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 06:57 · Score: 0

Sorry we can't deal with each and every one of you. You better talk to whoever sold it...
Re:I can see the game returns now by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 07:19 · Score: 0

Or in the case of me trying to get a refund for the buggy tribes 2 through Sierra; "We will take the game back and give you a refund, just spend $10 on S&H to send it back to us, go through the hassle of shipping, wait a while, and we will give you back less then what you paid for it."

Of course I didn't bother with it, and while I don't remember the full details, from what I remember it wasn't worth it. For all I know or care the refund might as well have been in Sierra Fun Bux(TM), and $40.00 in Sierra bucks could equal $0.01 US.
Re:I can see the game returns now by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 10:39 · Score: 2, Informative

That's what the Fair Credit Billing Act is for. You tried in good faith to resolve the problem with your merchant (in this case, a defective product), and were rebuffed. Your next stop is your credit card company.

I have cancalled my Amazon order... by thesp · 2004-10-23 04:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

...I urge others to do the same. If we, the consumers, keep on permitting u-turns by companies, and cheerfully accepting them, it will only encourage this culture of mendacity that is more prevalent each day in this world.

Re:I have cancalled my Amazon order... by McTimson · 2004-10-23 05:02 · Score: 1

It doesn't matter how many people cancel their online preorders, every 12 year old dipshit with a Dell will be getting their parents to buy them the game anyway. We're not the consumers, we're the community that they say they care about, but turn their backs on anyway. They care about cash, nothing more, nothing less. Making everyone install Steam means they can advertise their own products more, sell advertising space to other companies, and do whatever else they want. But as long as there's a shitty game involved in it, it'll sell.
Re:I have cancalled my Amazon order... by sgant · 2004-10-23 05:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

I have a 12 year old and I can tell you, he isn't interested in HL2 at all. He's like...what's that?

But anyway, I love how people all of a sudden turn on a company and to the old "sold out" routine that is as old as the hills. Of course they care about cash, but from everything I've seen, they care about the quality of their game. I've heard great things about this game, but bottom line, if it isn't good, it isn't good and they will NOT rake in the cash.

Word get's out now. Not everyone is lumped into the "dipshit" masses any longer. There is too much competition out there to just release a crappy game and hope people will buy it just because of the name. Look at Doom3, it was an "ok" game, but it's certainly not breaking sales records across the world.

Having everyone install Steam does give them some control...control that you can buy directly from them and also update the games as a patch comes out. I see as being helpfull and easy.

But hey, they don't have control over my computer. No one does. If in the future they want to get into a pay-per-use model, I'll leave. It's no big deal. It's not like it's spy-ware that you can't get off your computer.

I don't see it as a big deal, but I guess others do. It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months.

--

"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Re:I have cancalled my Amazon order... by EngineeringMarvel · 2004-10-23 05:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

I understand if you do not agree with the Steam authentication, but why is it that people want everyone to do the same thing they are doing. It is like people want an excuse to not buy the game. Games are about entertainment and fun, so why are so many people complaining about HL2, a game that hasn't even come out yet. I think people are forgetting the whole point of buying a game. How can you judge a game's quality if you haven't played it yet.

I'm beginning to think people use the whole HL2 "drama" just to get attention on the internet. People want to actually think that others care if they are buying a game or not. I know I don't. If I hear my friends like a game, then I'll buy it, but am I gonna not buy a game because one person says they are cancelling their pre-order....I don't think so. The whole irony of all this is that in a few months, if HL2 turns out to be a great game, the very same cancelling people are going to be the first one to jump on the, "omg, this is the greatest game ever and I knew it all along" band wagon. As for me, I was ready to buy the game last year on release day, now, I'll probably wait a few days after release. Either way, I'll eventually buy the game I think because Valve produced an amazing product on the last go around.

--
I couldn't think of anything witty to say, so...you're stuck with this.
Re:I have cancalled my Amazon order... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:45 · Score: 0, Troll

Why in the hell would I cancel my order? Steam is pretty damn nice.

For instance, this past week there were a number of server-exploits that would crash entire games for everyone on CS:S. They issued a fix that was downloaded and updated automatically before logging into the game. No hunting down the news. No digging around to find a website with the patch. No downloading. No updating. No screwing around. Simply clicked a button to play like normal and everything was handled for me.

Seriously, having a system that handles automatic patching and such is great. I mean, what are you afraid that they're going to do, activate your webcam remotely and stream the live feed to the NSA, CIA and FBI?!

You fuckers are WAY too paranoid. Just buy the god damn game and have fun and quit turning everything into a travesty.
Re:I have cancalled my Amazon order... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 09:05 · Score: 0

You can only say this because you lack the foresight to what will come after.

- Desktop ads
- Subscription based gaming
- Games won't run, or will run limitedly unless you have X-manufacturers particular video card

Don't be apathetic. If you can't look back on the past 20 years of the way companies have treated consumers, and see the way it will be 5 - 10 years from now, you are a complete imbicilic fool, and damn you to hell for ruining it for the rest of us who give a shit.
Re:I have cancalled my Amazon order... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 09:51 · Score: 0

- Desktop ads

No, that won't happen. They won't be dumb enough to install anything that displays ads to you unless it's through their client. If you don't want the ads, turn the client off. No big deal. You already get adds when loading Halo or many other games. Anyway, they aren't doing this currently (except ads for their own games and you can turn that off). If they do, then it can be a big deal. Right now, you're talkinga bout how evil pens are because they can potentially someday be used to write death threats.

- Subscription based gaming

I'd love to pay $10/mo for access to all the online games I want. Halo, Halo2, Unreal 2K4, Counterstrike, etc. It's not like I'm going to play the game without being online anyway (except for a lan party, which I don't do anyway).

- Games won't run, or will run limitedly unless you have X-manufacturers particular video card
So what, that already happens. MS has done this with the way MSIE/Windows works with secret API calls that other clients can't take advantage of. It was rumored that Valve did this with NVIDIA for HL2. It was rumored that ATI (I think?) did this with with iD for Doom3. It's really not a huge deal.
Re:I have cancalled my Amazon order... by Gnulix · 2004-10-24 07:27 · Score: 1

Look at Doom3, it was an "ok" game, but it's certainly not breaking sales records across the world.
I wish I had done a game that sold as "poorly" as Doom 3.
Re:I have cancalled my Amazon order... by |/|/||| · 2004-10-25 06:31 · Score: 1

No, you're missing the point. The point, as I see it, is that Valve could be starting a very ugly trend here. I've been waiting for HL2 for years now, and I fully intended to build a new PC specifically for this game.
Now? I don't think I'll buy it. As much as I'll miss the game, I'm not going to send the message that it's OK for a game to require communication with the outside world in order to operate. Don't think that's a big deal? How about if NONE of your software would operate without connecting to various servers in order to authenticate? Even in the best case scenario, in which the software only has to authenticate at install time (like HL2) you're going to be screwed when the company goes out of business and you need to reinstall. Worse cases involve compulsory authentication every time you use the software, in which case you're *really* screwed when the software is no longer "supported" for whatever reason.
In other words, authentication to server=bad, therefore I won't be buying the game. It has nothing to do with whether the game is "good" or not.

--
[javac] 100 errors

Here we go...let the bashing begin by sgant · 2004-10-23 04:49 · Score: 5, Funny

Here we go again!

(in sarcastic tones)

HOW DARE THEY! They expect us to have a net connection! What year do they think this is? 2004 or something?!?! Don't they understand that people that have the horsepower in a computer to run the Source engine as in HL2 usually do NOT have any sort of net connection! What do they think we are, NASA?!?!

Valve is nothing but a bunch of money-grubbing jerks to make us pay for a game...A GAME! They should open source it!

Here is a list of demands for Valve:

1. Stop lying to us! We trusted you...er...don't know with what, but lots of people are saying you let us down...somehow...so stop it!

2. I don't want you spying on me 24/7. I know Valve is out there, looking through my window, looking through my mailbox, now you want to invade my machine and spread all your viruses and spyware to watch everything I do so you can sell it to the Iraqis for some oil-for-games program you have going! YOU'RE EVIL!

3. I want every game and every map and every mod ever made for HL/CS/DoD etc etc to be converted to the Source engine AND be included on the HL2 CD. AND I want everything on one CD.

4. I want Source to run 150fps on my Pentium 90 with Stock VGA graphics...using DX9.0c. Anything more than that and you guys just don't know how to program.

5. I don't want any bugs, none. If one bug shows up I'll sue you!

6. I don't want any type of security on these games. I should be able to install on any number of computers. I have 150 friends that all would like to "try out" this game so I want to burn 150 CD's with a copy on it so I can let them have it for a low price of $20 (that covers the cost of the CD).

Do these things and perhaps maybe I'll play the game...but only maybe.

--

"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith

Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by vegetablespork · 2004-10-23 04:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

That's amusing, but disingenuous.
No one should have to cede control over his machine and agree to a Draconian agreeement that indemnifies Valve in the event of any screwups to play a game he legitimately purchased. This is about control, not about copyright infringement. The crackers will have this one on Usenet inside of a week--the only ones inconvenienced will be those who purchased a game that has to call home to use single player mode, and a company that's going to collect and sell Bob-knows-what information about them in the process.

--
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by sgant · 2004-10-23 05:03 · Score: 1

Of course I was trying to be amusing, certainly not a troll.

But I really don't see what the big deal is. I use Steam now. I have been since day one. It has been nothing more than a way to launch the game. It doesn't take info from my computer like my bank account or keep track of what websites I go to. It's NOT SPYWARE.

Why does everyone jump over this, yet not any antivirus software that has to connect all the time to the net to get updates? What about iTunes checking for updates? Real player? Photoshop? etc etc etc. The list goes on.

Then again, I understand people are upset about this. They don't want to jump through hoops. Nothing I can say can sooth that feeling other than suggest if you truely are afraid of some info leaking out on the net, simply give them false information when registering. Give them a yahoo mail account and be done with. I have a yahoo account set up simply to register with many different things. That way, any junk goes there and is filtered out. It never sees my computer.

Yes, it's a pain, but I don't see it as one anymore because I just work through it and go on with my life.

--

"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by gl4ss · 2004-10-23 05:07 · Score: 1

dude.. fuck you.

it's entirely understandable to bitch about it _NEEDING_ a net connection.

and you know what it leads to? using cracks.
and you know what? in 8+ years when valve has gone belly under.. YOU CAN'T INSTALL AND PLAY IT ANYMORE(without cracks)!

and they've lied to their fans over and over again(dates and even what they're up to doing, in what state it is).. but fans don't care, because they're fanboys.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by sgant · 2004-10-23 05:19 · Score: 1

Thanks...but it was ment to be funny, not serious...as I even started off with a sarcastic tone.

I of course don't see them doing any of the things I listed.

But then again, no one bitches about NEEDING a connection to play like Everquest or SWG or other online games. Ok, you may say bad example because it's listed on the box before you buy that you need a connection to play. Well, it also lists on the box that you need a connection with HL.

But anyway, 8+ years from now I'll be playing something else. There isn't one game from 8 years ago that's gone belly up that I still play. Name one game from 8 years ago that the company is no longer around supporting that you still on a regular basis. Come on, give me one game. And be honest, don't go looking at Google, I mean that YOU play. And we're talking about games that there are no support for anymore from anywhere.

--

"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by dougmc · 2004-10-23 05:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

But then again, no one bitches about NEEDING a connection to play like Everquest or SWG or other online games.
Actually, some people do bitch about this. Granted, most people understand the need immediately, but not everybody. Even Grandma might want to play the Sims Online, but not understand why she needs to be dialed up while doing so.
But for a single player game, it makes no sense, beyond marketing and copy protection, things we hate (newsflash: even people who paid for their game hate copy protection. It's rarely as `invisible' as it's supposed to be. Ironically, many end up getting the pirate patches, because it makes the game better.)
In any event, MMRPG vs single player game Internet requirements -- it's hardly the same thing.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by gl4ss · 2004-10-23 05:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

hl2 isn't an online game.

to quote the interview "Doug Lombardi: During installation the user will be prompted to authenticate the copy and create a Steam account. After that is complete, the single-player and LAN games do not require an Internet connection."

so.. to play the _single_player game you need to authenticate during the installation.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by Japong · 2004-10-23 05:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm not the parent, but I can still say that I play Die By the Sword - at least 3 times a week - it's only SIX years old, but Treyarch and Interplay have long stopped caring about or supporting the game.

And the big issue here with HL2 is that it's a single player game, there's no need for anyone to have to log online, yet they're making it mandatory anyway. It's something I and many others are becoming increasingly fed up with, because they make you go through increasing circles of bullshit in order to play a game you spent hard-earned money on.

When Doom 3 came out I bought a copy the day after release, and then I was told I had to remove CloneCD, Daemon Tools and Nero in order to get the game to work with their moronic copy protection. As much as you like to say Valve and id can do whatever they want with their software, this is crossing the line between "protecting their copyright" and "taking over my computer". I can't wait until Windows Media Player will automatically uninstall and registry-ban Winamp and iTunes...

As things go, I don't want Steam. I don't want the 500-some-odd megabyte install I had to do when they decided to move TFC over, I don't want to wait for Steam to patch itself, I don't want the memory and processor overhead of having Steam running as a background process whenever I start my computer and checking for updates, I don't want to hear about Valve's latest news whenever I login to play whatever game I bought years ago, I don't want to play CS:Source.

I would have bought Half-Life 2 because I was interested in playing Half-life 2.

Now I'll just download the game a week early on Bit Torrent, crack it, and then purchase the box copy and leave it sealed on my shelf. I shouldn't have to, but at least my way everybody wins.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:41 · Score: 0

Duh, no one's complaining about needing a net connection for multiplayer. Your everquest point is utterly foolish.

I recently loaded up Quarantine again and played through it, using the DOSBOX emulator. I often play Doom (using zdoom), and this week I've been playing starcraft and total annihilation (ok, not quite 8 years old, IIRC). Granted, it's quite possible that id and blizzard would still be allowing people to authenticate the games, and Doom is now open source so any code like that can just be ripped out. But the other two, I don't think so.
Don't forget that even if the company is still around, it isn't cost-effective to allow people to play old games, when you can turn off the server and make them buy the new one. Stuff like steam lets publishers effectively move to a game-rental model, one that will be a pain for all customers (canceling subscriptions is always a gauntlet of telephone support annoyance) and will punish people like me who enjoy dusting off an old game for a weekend.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by vegetablespork · 2004-10-23 05:59 · Score: 1

Why does everyone jump over this, yet not any antivirus software that has to connect all the time to the net to get updates? What about iTunes checking for updates? Real player? Photoshop? etc etc etc. The list goes on.
In every one of the examples you cite, except anti-virus, I can turn off the ability to call home without losing any function not legitimately requiring network access (e.g. song rental from the iTunes music service). Since the virus-writing divisions of the anti-virus software companies (grin) are always creating new viruses, constant updates are naturally necessary.

--
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 06:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

Maybe you should try seeing the other sides point of view.

For example, my current machine can not run HL2, and I will not be getting one that can for quite a while. I will be picking up the collector's edition when it is released because I like collecting them and want to secure a copy.

Cracks aside, what guarantee do I have that I will be able to play the single player HL2 and HL: Source game when I do have the machine to run it? What about 5 years from now when I want to play through HL2 and HL: Source again? And what about mods, from what I understand the system isn't as open as it use to and Valve has control over them. A lot of PC game companies have died over the years, and so have multiplayers severs, but at least I can still play the single player versions as well as mods with my legally bought copies.

Also while it is unlikely, what is there to stop Valve from pulling a Microsoft, and have them no longer supporting HL2 single player, HL: Source, old mods, or any of other their classics?

Don't assume that it is just pirates who are the ones complaining, I bet there are quite a few legit buyers like me that don't like this turn of events. Seriously, I purchase all my software, have never used any cracks and have no intention to do so. But given the requirement to authenticate games to just play single player I might reconsider this policy I have. I just might have to start downloading and backing up cracks, BUT only for games that require authentication in order to play single player and if I can no longer authenticate my legally purchased game.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by Loonacy · 2004-10-23 10:02 · Score: 1

Don't assume that it is just pirates who are the ones complaining, I bet there are quite a few legit buyers like me that don't like this turn of events.

The pirates aren't complaining. The only ones complaining are legit buyers. The pirates will just crack it like any other game and all will be well... for them.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by shutdown+-p+now · 2004-10-23 18:53 · Score: 1

The problem is, Steam doesn't work with any connection. For example, I have a pretty good Internet connection - but it goes through an HTTP proxy (uni campus). And Steam doesn't work behind HTTP proxies.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by shutdown+-p+now · 2004-10-23 18:55 · Score: 1

Name one game from 8 years ago that the company is no longer around supporting that you still on a regular basis. Come on, give me one game.
Doom 1 & 2. I'm serious.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by sgant · 2004-10-23 23:18 · Score: 1

Last I looked, Id software was still in business, though they're not active in supporting Doom 1 and 2, they have released the source code so the game itself is "in the wild" of open source...which in a way is still supported by the ones that want to support it. But my statement was more of abandonware...where there is nothing left of the game at all other than you wanting to play it...which people are saying will happen to Valve and Steam in the future.

--

"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 05:47 · Score: 0

You might try considering that you have no inherent right to play Half-Life 2, and that they are perfectly within their rights to place whatever conditions they choose on use of the product. Get over yourselves and stop acting like spoiled, entitled children.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 02:16 · Score: 0

"Name one game from 8 years ago that the company is no longer around supporting that you still on a regular basis"

Master of Orion.
Master of Magic.
Civilization.
Dungeon Master.
Dungeon Master 2.
Dungeon Keeper.
Dungeon Keeper 2.

Want more, bitch? Dumbass.
Re:Here we go...let the bashing begin by mink · 2004-10-27 01:29 · Score: 1

Well a good example up until a year or so ago was Star Control II.

Archon, I bet EA support reps cant even remember that. Quite a fun one on one battle game.

Terminal Velocity, pain to get a lan game going but great fun once you do.

Magic Carpet 1 & 2 a lot like the above.

--
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.

PC games are really getting bad by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 04:55 · Score: 0

The copy protection, authentication, drive matching, advertising, punk buster, etc are really bogging down games. I tried to use Steam but it was repulsive to me - I don't want to have to enter information, click 10 times and wait minutes just to get into the game. But it isn't just steam. Tribes Vengeance takes more than a minute to get into. The Tom Clancy Rainbow Shield games are just ridiculous. UT2004 even takes a while.

I am very appreciative of game designers, and publishers, who keep total user experience in mind. Call of Duty will probably stay on my hard drive forever. Not necessarily because it's an all-time great game, but it doesn't require me to leave the CD in the drive and loads quickly. I can load Call of Duty, join a server, choose a team and get a frag in the time it takes to use Steam to even join a game.

Pirates may never be able to play Rainbow Six 3 Raven Shield thanks to its monolithic copy protection, but guess what, I'm never buying a Rainbow Six - or Ubisoft - shooter again thanks to that experience. And I resold my copy on the used market, thus depriving them of another potential sale. These guys are shitting where they eat, and so I hope they like the taste.

Re:PC games are really getting bad by metalhed77 · 2004-10-23 06:08 · Score: 1

I remember waiting 4 minutes for each level of wing commander III to load on my friend's PC. Things are getting better as far as wait imes go.

--
Photos.
Re:PC games are really getting bad by DrSkwid · 2004-10-23 06:33 · Score: 0, Offtopic

My creature in Black and White shit where we ate, was great for killing rival villagers!

--
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Re:PC games are really getting bad by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 06:49 · Score: 1, Insightful

Long load times in the bad old days were due to a combination of slow CD-Roms and expensive hard drives.

If a game takes a long time to load because it has so many game objects or it's a huge map, I have no problem. Okay, maybe a little problem, but I understand. It's physical limitations which are the problem. I didn't like swapping disks in the bad Really old days, but it was necessary so it was endured.

But these days it isn't due to basic media problems, it's because the designers/publishers think the benefits of Securom, Steam and whatever else are worth the degradation of the total user experience. When you think about it, it's really a slap in the face to legitimate consumers.

Godspeed, Valve! by gothfox · 2004-10-23 05:02 · Score: 5, Funny

After all, product activation did a miracle for Microsoft. Stopped those evil software pirates completely, yessir.

Why is that bad? by 2nd+Post! · 2004-10-23 05:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

Your logic is, "Skipping the publishers is a bad thing, as they fund the new games."

But the whole point of skipping the publishers is to get enough money so the developers can "fund the new games". And when you get to that point, WHY do we, as gamers, or developers, need or want publishers?

--

GPL Deconstructed

Re:Why is that bad? by Ford+Prefect · 2004-10-23 05:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

But the whole point of skipping the publishers is to get enough money so the developers can "fund the new games".

Who do you think funds a new development studio with no released titles already making money for them?

Valve's got to the stage where it doesn't need the financial backing of a publisher, but for smaller people, it's a very important source of monetary investment.

As for the Half-Life 2 requiring product activation - I'm not sure if this is the best route to be going down. Yes, nearly everyone has an internet connection these days, but there still are some people without. A friend of mine is a big fan of Half-Life (and games in general) but has no internet access at home. An outlier? Yes, but there's probably more of them than we think, especially in the casual PC gamer market the original Half-Life has more recently done so well in. Such people are a bit unlikely to be posting on here, for a start. ;-)

I've nothing against persistent user profiles and product registration for online gaming - a bit less anonymity might cut down on the number of idiots currently infesting servers - but requiring activation for an offline, single-player game does seem to be going a bit far. Anyone pirating the game will most likely have a registration-free hacked version, as already mentioned...

--
Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
Re:Why is that bad? by Drakino · 2004-10-23 05:37 · Score: 3, Informative

Ok, I'm a new developer. How do I fund my game? Pre-sell it through a Steam like program collecting money at the pre-sell, then coming out with it 3 years later? No.

I go and talk to a game publisher, they loan me money, then when the game does well, the loan is paid off. If it doesn't then thats another story. The publisher also has people to decide if the game idea will do well, by testing it on play testers and such.

I am not saying existing publishers are great. I'm just mostly trying to say getting rid of them completly to me seems like a very bad idea.

This is all overly simplistic, but I think it gets the point across.
Re:Why is that bad? by irc.goatse.cx+troll · 2004-10-23 06:33 · Score: 1

You release something really cool as a mod to get your companys name known, then its easier to get money for further devel. Look at Natural Selection and Flayra's new company, UnderWorldsEntertainment. Had he just started a company from the begining, noone would pay any attention. Now he has a following, people with money like that.

Greymatter(I think) did the same thing with RTCW:EnemyTerritory.

--
Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
Re:Why is that bad? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 02:57 · Score: 0

Money from whom?

A publisher perhaps? Or perhaps another game developer maybe? One who has already been successful. They'll probably help you out with marketing, QA, packaging, getting you into the retail space..... Wait... That sounds like a publisher.
Re:Why is that bad? by ajd1474 · 2004-10-24 16:01 · Score: 1

Unfortunately this is the same logic as the whole get rid of Record Companies argument. Yes publishers are evil, whether they be Music, Games or Books. But ask any "independant" musician or developer how hard it is to get your product developed and out there WITHOUT a publisher. It takes far more money to produce a book/album/game and then publish it and then market it and then distribute than most independants have. Publishers are required in a lot of instances to pay for all this stuff.

Yeah, succesful musicians, authors or game devs can get by without a publisher by selling direct to their fans... but unless you have a ready made fan base, you need a publisher to generate an audience for you.

--
I refuse to have a sig... dammit!

There goes that game off my list by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:08 · Score: 0

I guess they won't be getting my 49.99. Just like everytime Best Buy runs a sale and never has any of the items that are on sale available, I save whatever the price is. I bought all the Half Life titles (Opposing Force,Blue Shift), but if they require a Steam account I won't be buying HL2. At least not until a crack for it comes out!

OK, so... by Snowspinner · 2004-10-23 05:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

What is an acceptable way for companies to deal with piracy then? I mean, come on. We really damage our credibility if we bitch at every attempt to curb piracy. But we complain about Microsoft barring modded XBoxes from their servers, about copy protection like this, we complain when companies sue file sharers...

Are people really arguing that there should be no way to prevent piracy? Because based on the aggregate outrage of the /. populace, that's increasingly what we're looking like. And down that road lies us no longer being considered worth pandering to.

Personally, I think that good old-fashioned copy protection is by far the best method of preventing piracy. Nobody gets sued. Nobody gets hurt.

--
Philip Sandifer's academic website

Re:OK, so... by dougmc · 2004-10-23 05:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

What is an acceptable way for companies to deal with piracy then?
You need a list? Ok then ...
Acceptable forms of copy protection :
Ignore it. That's certainly acceptable, and works well for many game developers and publishers.
Add extras in the box that add value. Cloth maps, figurines, trading cards, etc.
Make a complex game that requires lots of documentation, and include it in a printed book.
Make an awesome multi-user component that requires logging into a server with a unique CD key to play online. It must be something that needs to use the Internet already, however (like a multi-user component would.)
Include the phrase: Please don't copy this game illegally.
Barely acceptable methods include :
Require use of that CD key to download patches and updates.
Having a unique CD key for each copy of the game.
Include copy protection methods that make it hard to copy, or make copies not work -- Safedisk, bad sectors, etc. These aren't very effective, but as long as they don't cause problems for legitimate users, they're acceptible -- barely.
Require that the CD be in the drive while playing the game. We don't like this, but we generally tolerate it if there's no other problems.
Hidden registry keys to keep track of previous installations and such.
Utterly unaccecptable forms of copy protection for a game :
Contacting the Internet (or requiring that you call up a phone number to get a code) for a single player game
Dongles (and other hardware keys.)
`Please enter the third word of page 25 now.' (or other sorts of code wheels, books, etc.)
Writing to the boot sector or other `off limits' part of the disk. (Turbo Tax did this recently.)
Installing Spyware that reports back to the publisher.
Programs that look for `cheating' or `cracking' programs on your disk and either refuse to run the game if found, or (worse) remove/break the offending programs. (EQ has done this, as and several programs refuse to work if programs like Daemon Tools or even Nero are even installed.)
Protections that damage the system if they feel they're being messed with (recent example: program that deleted your home directory if it detected a `pirated' CD key.)
Special device drivers that must be installed just to run the game -- like a special CD rom driver.
Unmovable files (if you put a file down, we should be able to defrag it!)
I'm sure I've missed a few in each category, but this should get you started. Game developers, you listening?
Re:OK, so... by fwitness · 2004-10-23 05:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

Umm, no. Product activation is something that has been tried a bunch of times, to no avail. While piracy is a problem, it doesn't mean it's an insurmountable one. For one thing, people *lose* money through piracy, and that sucks. That doesn't mean they make *no money* or even a drastically reduced amount. I think we all know the windows piracy problem helped establish it's market dominance.

Also on the "no longer being considered worth pandering to" note, I don't think I've ever seen any demographic ever cease to be marketed to due to piracy. Cable TV, lot's of pirates, still makes money. Dish TV, same. Windows, same. Any popular pc Game, same.

People keep thinking of piracy as something that can be eliminated, like polio. It's not some disease that threatens humanity. It's an aspect of human nature that has been around for quite some time (like, uh, pirates? You know, the swashbuckling kind?). There is a reason banks and large commercial retailers have insurance. Nobody has ever said "lets start a campain to stop bank robbery!" People are going to still rob banks, despite having 50 cameras and untold security. Some will succeed. If your business model relies on not having anyone *ever* steal from you, I suspect you have bigger problems. Does anyone have theft insurance? Why is that? Theft has been around a long time, why haven't we started 'The War On Theft'?

Now, making me give you my personal info to buy your product, that's fine, but don't expect me to do so. There are plenty of other games out there. Keep in mind this is the *single* player version that also requires activation. Would you buy console games this way? Oh yeah, that next Zelda is so cool, I'll just tell the Nintendo people my personal details, because I *know* they won't share them with anyone.

Please.

If you feel it's fine, you go right ahead, but in my mind at least, this is not a bright idea.

--
-- I have fans? Wow.
Re:OK, so... by Temporal · 2004-10-23 07:08 · Score: 1

Personally, I consider requiring the CD in the drive unacceptable. I own lots of games, and the first thing I do with any new game I buy is make a CD image of it. It is far easier to mount an image with Daemon Tools than to rummage around for the CD.
Re:OK, so... by macz · 2004-10-23 09:57 · Score: 1

Absolutely, I like "old fashioned" copy protection. The older, and more exploited the better.
Seriously, the key to piracy, ALL piracy is to understand that there are only 2 motivating factors to human behavior. Fear of Retribution and Hope of Reward. Whip and Carrot.
How about, instead of the 100% whip mentality that game authors have now, they throw in some REAL carrots. Block modded/cracked versions of games to their servers, AND give away micro-prizes for users. For every 10 frags you get a widow's mite, and then eventually, after many hours of playing and immersion in the vendors controlled reality, you can collect enough to trade them in for a new kick ass graphics card, or maybe a heavily discounted upgrade to the next version, or some similar economy.
We are talking people willing to dedicate hours to completely virtual rewards (especially in RPGs). Give them a limited edition T-Shirt for some in game feat and you will have a near riot at the Electronics Boutiques across America of gamers trying to buy the game.
Finally, the biggest carrot of all is price. I just bought Age of Empires for $9.97 at Wal Mart. I love that game, and have for years, and until now I have never bought it. If the cost of a game is too high, then the cost/benefit calculation that will go on in the gaming public's heads will tend towards piracy. I don't care how cool a game is, $49.99 is too high a price to pay when there are "five finger discount" versions available freely on line.
Game software companies will argue (whine) "the reason that prices are so high is that piracy is so rampant!" But they have always been high. Even ROM cartridges, which are difficult to pirate for even a dedicated copyright scofflaw (not impossible, just difficult) are priced too high so the "piracy=increased price" argument is a bit disingenuous.
It is good if EA or Ubisoft wants to make a profit... That means better and better content and technology for everyone. But I want them to choose to make that profit on volume, not on overpriced, easily pirated, strings of 1's and 0's.
If a company has a policy that is not draconion in its implementation of copy protection, and acknowledges my desires to have things like nocd patches by making them readily and officially available, then I will reward that company with my hard earned $ (even if I still think I am paying too much). I bought UT2004 for that reason. They started off with a CD/DVD required, but eventually they will give out the nocd patch like they did with 2003. They don't charge me a monthly fee, and while their servers are sometimes laggy, I can usually find a server playing the ChainIsle map and after 15 minutes I have to turn it off and de-compress because I am as jazzed as if I had had 3 Starbuck's "Venti" Kenyan coffee's in a row.

--
...But I digress. TREMBLE PUNY HUMANS!ONE DAY MY SPECIES WILL DESTROY YOU ALL!
Re:OK, so... by Loonacy · 2004-10-23 10:15 · Score: 1

I always liked what Epic did with UT. When first released it requires the CD in the drive, so people who might have been sitting on the fence will buy it instead of pirate it. Then they release a patch so the CD isn't required anymore, because most of the people who would have bought it already have, and the rest of the people have pirated it already.
Re:OK, so... by Sigma+7 · 2004-10-23 11:55 · Score: 1

The listing seems to be fairly accurrate for the needs of the average player.

Make a complex game that requires lots of documentation, and include it in a printed book.
The trick is to keep it fairly simple... For example, Wizball required shaking the joystick to activate a powerup (information which was not visible in some pirated versions of that game.) It collapeses as soon as the player asks a helpful friend with a manual, but is effective in most cases.

No need for complexity at all - just nonchantingly place one or two key facts in the manual and that will be good enough.

Require that the CD be in the drive while playing the game. We don't like this, but we generally tolerate it if there's no other problems.
There are cases where I would consider this to be unacceptable - for example, the games that must constantly stream content from the CD at maximum spin speed. While I don't mind reading data from the CD, the developers should give an option to cache things from the harddrive instead. Likewise, games that demand that everything be copied to the harddrive shouldn't be demanding the CD as well (unless they allow for a smaller installation level).

As far as I know, there was only one game where the CD being in the drive is purely acceptable - and that game didn't need to install anything on the hard drive to run.

`Please enter the third word of page 25 now.' (or other sorts of code wheels, books, etc.)
I would sort of disagree about this being unacceptable. In the early days of computers, I've encountered this sort of thing to be very common - it was generally the only form of copy-protection that didn't require anything too serious (e.g. ones that knocked the floppy drive heads out of alignment).

I'd classify it as barely acceptable instead - but it should either be roleplayed in the sense of Pirates! (where the crew is shocked at your incompetence if you incorrectly give the time of arrival for one of the two treasure convoys...), or appear only occassionally as in Stunt Island (first loading time, and very rarely afterwards...)
Re:OK, so... by Geoffreyerffoeg · 2004-10-23 14:30 · Score: 1

Dongles (and other hardware keys.)

Hypothetical variant of a dongle that I'd like to see if people consider it acceptable:

Suppose they made a USB device, something like a memory stick, except with a proprietary, hidden chip on it. The game loader is visible on the stick as if it were any USB mass storage device, but the rest of the game - levels, bitmaps, sounds, etc. - is accessible only through code in the game, and that code communicates with the chip through public-key encryption. Cracking that would be tough - you'd have to rewrite the entire loading part of the game, and also pull all the encrypted content off the chip.

Yes, it might amount to a hardware dongle, but you didn't consider CD-in-drive as bad as a dongle. This contains game data, not just a chip that proclaims its own presence. Besides, it might be able to eliminate installing; run the stub, which tests for compatibility, pulls the DirectX installer or whatnot off the (public area of the) USB stick if necessary, and boots the game.

Please don't copy this game illegally.

I hope you're joking. That phrase is "acceptable" to everyone but the publisher; people who want to copy the game won't give a ham whether they're asked not to copy.

However, a variant of this that socially engineers the purchasers into thinking of themselves as an "elite" group or somesuch might be more acceptable.

-

One more random idea: sell game-built computers (good GPUs and stuff) preloaded with n games of your choice. You'll end up getting them cheaper than retail, even if you subtract the raw cost of the computer and labor, since they don't have to deliver boxes.

Another idea: bring your computer to the store, pay the cost of the game, and you'll get a CD (and monitor/keyboard/mouse) to use while in the store to install the game, and a printed license marked with a description of your computer (serial number, photograph, etc.). Something about the setup should be designed to make it hard to lift the game out by itself. If you need to reinstall the game, you can do so free if you bring your computer and license back. If you need to invoke a license transfer option, bring your computer back, and the store people will uninstall it, take your marked license, and give you a blank one.
Re:OK, so... by kiddygrinder · 2004-10-23 14:59 · Score: 1

The problem with manual/printed copy protection is that the pirate can just scan the whole thing and put it on the actual cd. No need even for the person to be able to hack the software!

--
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
Re:OK, so... by kiddygrinder · 2004-10-23 15:01 · Score: 1

That last idea you presented is possibly the most unworkable idea ever presented for copy protection. Bring your computer into the STORE?

--
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
Re:OK, so... by Geoffreyerffoeg · 2004-10-23 15:22 · Score: 1

Of course, after a while, people will expect a forthcoming patch. Still, this lends itself to an idea: make a game with some moderately-annoying-to-use but very-annoying-to-hack copy protection, like mail-in + online activation. After the value of the game goes down, release it without protection. The drive of a lot of crackers is to get the game cracked very quickly ("0-day exploits" and the like). If it's only reasonable to crack it after a while, there's little motivation to crack it, and there's little loss of profits even if it be cracked (as far as I know, the games sold long after the release date are boxes that have been sold to the store anyway).
Re:OK, so... by dougmc · 2004-10-23 16:15 · Score: 1

Please don't copy this game illegally.
I hope you're joking. That phrase is "acceptable" to everyone but the publisher; people who want to copy the game won't give a ham whether they're asked not to copy.
I was not joking at all.
Microsoft puts something like `Please do not make illegal copies of this software' on their CDs. If it makes even one person realize that making a copy of this might be illegal (under certain conditions anyways) and decide against it, then it's a somewhat effective copy protection method, and one I do not find it offensive at all. (I'll also happily make copies of it anyways, but I also know that backup copies of my own software are generally legal.)
Actually, I've found Microsoft to be generally quite reasonable with their game copy protection -- yes, you need the CD in the drive while you play, but beyond that it's generally transparant. They're often demonized for their OSs and business practices (and rightfully so), but their games are generally quite good, and you almost never have problems with their copy protection.
The worst copy protection I've ever encountered? Real Flight G2 R/C Flight Simulator. Here is a list of all the things they do to protect their software -- and many are quite intrusive/inconvenient.
Re:OK, so... by Sigma+7 · 2004-10-23 16:52 · Score: 1

The problem with manual/printed copy protection is that the pirate can just scan the whole thing and put it on the actual cd. No need even for the person to be able to hack the software!
There are still ways to counter this. First is to simply fill up the 640MB of the disk - either content will be removed, or the ISO will become an "overburn" CD-ROM that can be detected by an installer. The pirate may just distriubte it with a sepearte file, but that does make the distribution a bit more fragmented (some pirates just pass on the base CD without passing on the manual as well. Common mistake, but exactly what the publisher would like to snare people with.)

The method that I would prefer would be a file scan. It's slightly harder to implement as you need to how the files will be stamped on the production CD, but will require software modification to defeat.

The manual itself can include a background watermark designed to look beautiful on paper, but then require the scanned manual to be very large for it to be readable. There's nothing more annoying than the manual taking just as much space as the game itself...
Re:OK, so... by Geoffreyerffoeg · 2004-10-24 13:46 · Score: 1

But the consumer is already going in there...

Scratch that. The legal, purchasing consumer is already going in there.

(Yes, I know about online orders; that aspect is conveniently ignored for this plan.)

A related idea...what about requiring users to have personal certificates, vouched by your friends who can attest you rarely pirate, seeded by the company and its agents? If you're caught, you lose your certificate, and your friends lose vouching powers.

(Yes, I'm throwing random random ideas out there. Hopefully one will vaguely inspire someone.)
Re:OK, so... by will_die · 2004-10-25 01:38 · Score: 1

`Please enter the third word of page 25 now.' (or other sorts of code wheels, books, etc.)

This use to be fairly common with games back in my C64/pirating days. The only problem is that all thoses games came with a scanned copy of the manual(even had some printed in the light blue "uncopyable" print), and for thoses with wheels you got images of both parts so you could construct your own. infocom was very into doing this with thier products.
For some of the better pirate version you just got a text file with all the questions they asked and the answers, and for the very best ones they had crack the game so it auto bypassed or was changed to always ask the same question, and the answer was already in the box.
Re:OK, so... by Damvan · 2004-10-25 06:33 · Score: 1

Obviously you never encountered that wonderful dark red paper with blue writing that couldn't be scanned or photocopied. Or at least couldn't with the technology available at the time.

Shocking! by samael · 2004-10-23 05:10 · Score: 1

Requiring you to register online.

Anyone would think they didn't trust you to pay for it.

--
My Journal

Need more DETAILS... by meanfriend · 2004-10-23 05:12 · Score: 3, Informative

About how this authentication is going to affect future installations. Will Steam keep track of some unique product id (like a CDKey) and tie it to a specific install?

ie. You install HL2 and the next day some hardware/OS failure requires you to reformat/reinstall. Will you be able to re-authenticate on the same CDKey? What about if you delete an old install and want to re-install on a new PC?

What if you trade in your HL2 at EB for some reason (runs too slow, too buggy, you plain dont like it), will the next person who buys it even be able to authenticate and play it? This could effectively destroy the pre-owned market (at least for this game). Which would be total BS; if I want to sell my game, I should be able to. Is that not my right as a consumer?

Go look at the Steam website faq. They specifically state that CDkeys cannot be transferred between Steam accounts. Without a doubt, Valve (and probably every publisher out there) would love nothing better than to ensure that everyone who plays their game has to always buy a full priced new copy. There is just too much potential for abuse here...

Maybe I'm way off base, and I'd love nothing better than Valve to prove me wrong. I was on the fence about buying HL2, now I'd say my mind is made up...

Re:Need more DETAILS... by sgant · 2004-10-23 05:22 · Score: 1

no, it isn't tied to your hardware. In fact, you can install it on 100 machines if you have 100 machines...yet you can only play it on one at a time.

I've reformated my HD and even upgraded quite a bit of hardware...Steam loads right in and I install up my games. Hell, I don't even know where my original HL CD is anymore...lost in so many moves...yet my account is right there and I loaded it up and off I was playing again.

But again, no. It's NOT TIED to your hardware.

--

"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Re:Need more DETAILS... by gl4ss · 2004-10-23 05:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

***What if you trade in your HL2 at EB for some reason (runs too slow, too buggy, you plain dont like it), will the next person who buys it even be able to authenticate and play it? This could effectively destroy the pre-owned market (at least for this game). Which would be total BS; if I want to sell my game, I should be able to. Is that not my right as a consumer?***

well, that's where you're onto them.

(besides.. the hl1-key state is horrid.. you can't really buy hl1 in shrink wraps and be sure that it has a key that you could use online)

you're _NOT_ offbase as it is essentially true already with cs:cz.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Need more DETAILS... by thebagel · 2004-10-23 13:07 · Score: 1

I believe he was referring to installing on a new PC, under a different account. I know for a fact that Steam doesn't allow you to register the same CD key under two accounts: I've seen the email they send, and the frustrated recipient (hint: don't pirate!).

IMO, this kind of protection is fine, as long as there's a way to undo it. For instance, deregister the program, so that you couldn't play it on that account anymore, but the next owner can.

And for everyone bitching about Steam: GET OVER IT. It's not that bad! It's NOT as slow as everyone claims (in fact, I'm usually on faster than I was back in the WON days), in-game performance is identical to that of the old HL, and while you have to register to play, there is an offline mode for Steam. Just try and play while disconnected: it offers it for you. And for everyone pissing and moaning about how they can't get on from behind a firewall: I don't recall being able to BEFORE Steam, either.

What about people without 'net connections? by david.given · 2004-10-23 05:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because there still are some, here and there. 'Net access isn't as ubiquitous as you think it is.

Re:What about people without 'net connections? by sgant · 2004-10-23 05:29 · Score: 1

What about people without 3D cards? What about people without CD-ROMs? What about people without computers at all? What about people with Macs? What about people running Amiga's?

I could go on...but I'm not.

--

"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by gl4ss · 2004-10-23 06:02 · Score: 1

**What about people without 3D cards? What about people without CD-ROMs? What about people without computers at all?**

Idiot. you _need_ those things to play the game.

net connection is just an artificial requirement to the single player game(to make tie the purchase you made to just you... more theoretical profits as you can't loan it to your friend after you played it through. would you buy a dvd you wouldn't be able to loan to your friends?).

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 06:38 · Score: 0

3 out of every 4 people have internet access at home
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by billybob · 2004-10-23 06:42 · Score: 0

If you dont have a net connection, I'd say there's a 99.999999% chance that your computer is probably an old outdated piece of crap that couldnt handle HL2. I mean seriously.. you think there's anyone out there with a 9800 Pro or X800, but yet doesnt have any access to the internet? Please. :P

--
Joseph?
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by sgant · 2004-10-23 07:12 · Score: 0, Flamebait

net connection is just an artificial requirement to the single player game(to make tie the purchase you made to just you... more theoretical profits as you can't loan it to your friend after you played it through. would you buy a dvd you wouldn't be able to loan to your friends?)

What is so goddamn wrong with making a profit? Who elected YOU to tell Valve "hey, you're making enough money"? No, your friends will have to buy it too. Why the FUCK is that so wrong? Why is a company so evil because it wants to try...at least try to get compensated for the games out there. They KNOW there will be little fuck-wads running around cracking the game and giggling like Beavis and Butthead because they think their so goddamn clever.

Yes, Valve will make a shitload of cash from this game. But again, who are you to say they've made enough and decide that you can just give it to whoever you want? Huh?

Don't buy the game. Don't like what their doing, don't buy it. Plain and simple. But no, I'm sure you'll go and get a cracked copy of it because you think you're "stickin it to the man". You'll justify it somehow in your brain that you're doing the right thing because Valve wanted a fucking little program on your computer. HOW DARE THEY!

wow....just.....wow.

So again, you need a net connection to play this game. Don't have one, fucking don't buy it. My analogy still stands.

--

"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by thirty2bit · 2004-10-23 07:20 · Score: 1

To those who didn't understand your message, an example: not everybody gives internet access to their kids. So how do you activate HL2 on your kid's computer when said does not have internet access?
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 07:36 · Score: 0

To those who didn't understand your message, an example: not everybody gives internet access to their kids. So how do you activate HL2 on your kid's computer when said does not have internet access?

Explain what principle might be used which would restrict kids from unsupervised internet access but would allow for unsupervised playing of bloodbath FPSes like HL2 or its mods? Especially multiplayer-centric FPSes? Are children too young to use the net unsupervised and who are forbidden from playing online really going to be a key demographic for HL2 sales? You decide.

The reason Valve are ignoring the extremist, emergency-lifeboat-situation hypotheticals like what you've floated is because they are useless in the real world, where practically all of HL2's potential customers will have no problem with it - other than slight annoyance, perhaps.
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by david.given · 2004-10-23 07:53 · Score: 1

Explain what principle might be used which would restrict kids from unsupervised internet access but would allow for unsupervised playing of bloodbath FPSes like HL2 or its mods?
Because single-player FPS games are about as violent as a Bugs Bunny cartoon. It's completely fake. The images on the screen have no relation to reality at all. Children are really good at distinguishing fantasy from reality; don't let anybody tell you otherwise, and they know that this isn't real.
But once you've connected the computer to the 'net, you suddenly have access to real human beings. This adds a whole new level to things. Those figures on the screen stop being cardboard shadows and start becoming avatars of real people that you establish relationships with, talk to, and learn from. They affect your behaviour. The game becomes real.
If I were a parent --- which I'm not --- that's what I'd be concerned with, not what colour the pixellated polygons on the screen that look a little like blood if you squint hard.
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 09:54 · Score: 0

Use a firewall to allow internet access, but not to browsers, email or instant messaging applications. Problem solved.
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by Dark+Nexus · 2004-10-23 09:54 · Score: 1

I know of one. He specifically chose to NOT have that computer ever touch the internet.

It's not that he doesn't have a net connection... he just doesn't have one on a computer that can run Half-Life 2.

--
Dark Nexus
"Sanity is calming, but madness is more interesting."
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by thirty2bit · 2004-10-23 14:08 · Score: 1

Anonymous Coward, the principle is very simple: parents have wildy bizarre varying ethics.

Example 1: one of my coworkers buys his stepson any Playstation or PC game he wants but restricts Internet access to a limited single hour per night for school work only -- supervised. The kid has a computer of his own but it's not networked.

Example 2: another coworker gives his kids unlimited internet access but polices the family's PC and Gamecube (stop laughing) games to those he deems acceptable. That goes for music too. Meanwhile his kids practically _live_ on YIM/AIM, talking to classmates etc. (no pr0n or pedos there I suppose...) He has set up computers in two of the three kids' rooms.

Real-world examples. Maybe most parents don't give a flying truck what games are played, but that's not universal. Either way, the principle stands: not all game PCs will have internet access. There needs to be a way to activate HL2 off-line.
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by Rew190 · 2004-10-23 16:26 · Score: 1

A constant internet connection is something the majority of us don't have, unlike 3D cards and CD-ROMs. That's simplifying it a bit much.

What if I install it on a laptop and want to play it on a plane or a hotel or anywhere without a connection?
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by Rew190 · 2004-10-23 17:06 · Score: 1

The issue isn't that Valve is profiting.

The issue is that this sort of thing unnecessarily limits what you can do with the game. It seems probable that I won't be able to copy this game on my laptop and my desktop so a friend can come over and play it on my LAN, that I wont' be able to play the game if I don't have an internet connection present (laptop, cable outage, whatever), etc.

But again, who are you to say they've made enough and decide that you can just give it to whoever you want? Huh?

Noone has a problem with them wanting to make a profit. That's not the issue.

Don't buy the game. Don't like what their doing, don't buy it. Plain and simple.

Well, that's the idea. It's just a shame they're crippling their software. If anything, this is going to promote more cracks and encourage people not to buy this cripplewear. I have my copy pre-ordered, but this has seriously given me second thoughts about the whole thing. Valve seems to be doing some pretty stupid things lately.

But no, I'm sure you'll go and get a cracked copy of it because you think you're "stickin it to the man".

Settle down, squirt. The folks talking about cracking the game (at least so far) are willing to buy the game and then crack it so these BS restrictions won't be present.

justify it somehow in your brain that you're doing the right thing because Valve wanted a fucking little program on your computer. HOW DARE THEY!

I don't think you get it. There are many nasty implications about this scattered through these comments. Your posts on this thread are vehemently backing it up, though; are you sure you're not the one making justifications?

It's this simple. They're inconveniencing the PAYING customer. That is never good. I'm sure there are who people won't buy this game based on this, and the sad thing is that it's going to get cracked anyhow. So what we have here is another case where the pirates will be unaffected and the buyers of the software will be the ones who get screwed a little bit.

I mean come on... I need an internet connection to be able to play a single player game?

they think their so goddamn clever.

Irony.
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by sgant · 2004-10-23 20:11 · Score: 1

The people that get the cracked version of the game yet buy the game anyway...at least they say they are buying the game...seem to want to put up with a possible virus/trojan infested crack than go with Steam.

Wow.

Is it a pain in the ass, is it inconveniencing the customer. Yeah. And I guess I am trying to justify it.

But when it's all said and done. When I've calmed down and still think about it, I still don't see what the big deal is. Oh well.

--

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Re:What about people without 'net connections? by gl4ss · 2004-10-24 01:33 · Score: 1

they're using their TIME AND MONEY to make the product WORSE than what it is. and you're paying for that in the price of the game - THE GAME IS SHITTIER EXPERIENCE IN TOTAL BUT IT COSTS MORE, thus there is not so much incentive to buy it. they're WASTING MONEY ON CRAP people don't want to theoretically make few dollars more.

it's crap. sure, it won't affect most people that buy it, but it is still just crap that only affects those people that bought it(same thing with some other games copyprotections.. like the sims with it's dozen or so expansions.. just try to install them all and still have it working- from originals even).

(it still gets copied, this won't affect that at all, cs:s is already copyable)

besides, aftermarket selling of used games should be legal.. you want your books to be tied to you also? because "oh geez they're only looking to make couple of bucks what's wrong with that you dam n dirty hippie communist????".

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Re:What about people without 'net connections? by AliasTheRoot · 2004-10-24 10:47 · Score: 1

My father has a 9800, all sorts of random peripherals like steering wheels, a surround sound rig, buys a *lot* of games and plays first person shooters.

He doesn't have Internet access.
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by Damvan · 2004-10-25 06:38 · Score: 1

Then you authenticate where you do have a net connection, then once authenticated, you can play all you want on the airplane, etc. You only need to authenticate it ONCE when you install it.
Re:What about people without 'net connections? by Rew190 · 2004-10-25 12:31 · Score: 1

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

Whats the surprise? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:15 · Score: 0

Valve has said all along from the very start that Steam would be their tool for playing and running HL2. When Valve switched everyone over to Steam a year or so ago, you had to put in your old Half-Life cd-key when you created your Steam account to download the games. It's been running mostly smooth for a year now, so I fail to see how this is anything new/surprising/cause for concern.

Wait, this is NEWS? by Jeff+Reed · 2004-10-23 05:16 · Score: 2

My understanding is that you were going to need Steam for offline play of HL2 since it was announced. This is about as news-worthy as the sun rising in the morning or Bill Gates having an assload of money.

While I can fully understand not liking the idea of Steam (hell, I still think it's a buggy piece of garbage, and it's gotten much better than the old versions), it's not that big a deal. Once you register your CD-Key with Valve through Steam, you can play the game, get updates quickly, and run the game on any machine with Steam installed (after it downloads the necessary data, of course). You can even run it in offline mode and not "report in to the mothership," if you're so afraid of that. I'm not seeing the downside, unless you're really paranoid about some company seeing your private data and think that "offline mode" doesn't mean "offline."

But then, if you're that crazed, maybe you shouldn't be on the internet at all.

Re:Wait, this is NEWS? by gl4ss · 2004-10-23 05:43 · Score: 4, Informative

* My understanding is that you were going to need Steam for offline play of HL2 since it was announced.*

that is not true. they said you would need steam for updates and online play, but if you wanted to just play the single player game out of the box then you wouldn't need a net connection(this would be the sensible thing, as some don't have net even).

among other things this makes it basically impossible for there to be a 2nd hand market for these as well(_this_ is what they're after.. making it impossible for even legally to buy it cheaper than store from someone who already played through it).

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world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Wait, this is NEWS? by Lisandro · 2004-10-23 05:48 · Score: 1

that is not true. they said you would need steam for updates and online play, but if you wanted to just play the single player game out of the box then you wouldn't need a net connection(this would be the sensible thing, as some don't have net even).

Which is logical, i might add: if you're not interested in online play, it probable your system won't even have an internet connection - my first thought were laptops. Asking for online activation on what's mainly a single player game is retarded.
Re:Wait, this is NEWS? by Bega · 2004-10-23 10:06 · Score: 1

Once you register your CD-Key with Valve through Steam, you can play the game, get updates quickly, and run the game on any machine with Steam installed (after it downloads the necessary data, of course).
Only thing is, that the instant that a patch for a game appears, the system gets so clogged that it isn't funny anymore. Think when that happens, and you want to play off-line.

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Re:Wait, this is NEWS? by The+Islamic+Fundamen · 2004-10-23 14:00 · Score: 0

Wouldnt unplugging the ethernet wire to your computer be considered "offline mode"?

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Re:Wait, this is NEWS? by Loiosh-de-Taltos · 2004-10-24 16:53 · Score: 1

"that is not true. they said you would need steam for updates and online play, but if you wanted to just play the single player game out of the box then you wouldn't need a net connection(this would be the sensible thing, as some don't have net even)."

Incorrect also. You will have to create a Steam account (if you do not have one) and authenticate your copy of Half-Life 2 -before- you can play it. Single or Multiplayer.

This is done during the install phase of the game.

Yay! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:17 · Score: 0

All the advantages of retail (having to wait until the game ships, paying the "middleman" instead of directly to valve), and all the advantages of steam (being online to play solo, paying for steam, drm, etc).

Come on, Halflife wasn't such a great game in the first place.

abso-frigging-lutely by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:22 · Score: 0

Great, so now I have to wait for a crack as well as a demo (so I can be sure it runs OK and is worth the cash). Luckily the cracker community is much more obliging than the average developer!

Or maybe I'll decide it's not worth the hassle.

Re:abso-frigging-lutely by irc.goatse.cx+troll · 2004-10-23 06:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

No you really don't. The crack already exists today (the Steam debug client that most hl related leaks use), It just needs to be hacked onto the final hl2 release, which will take about 30minutes. As for the demo.. Go download CS:Source and see if it runs on your machine.

If you're not afraid of your console and making your game ugly, theres plenty of ways to speed up the game. If I didn't hate Valve and Counterstrike with a passion now, I'd make a howto, but cvarlist mat_ and screw with those settings for better fps, namely mat_dxlevel 70 as I said in another post.

--
Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx

Simple workaround by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:25 · Score: 0

-Buy game
-copy cdkey
-bring back game to store "I dont have internet at home"
-play game

Limiting number of customers? by gothzilla · 2004-10-23 05:38 · Score: 1

http://www.techdot.com/doc/00223.html
75% of americans are connected to the internet. Is Valve really making it so that 25% of the population cannot play HL2? There's got to be more to the story. I wonder if they'll have a way for people to telephone in activation somehow.

Re:Limiting number of customers? by ssand · 2004-10-23 05:44 · Score: 1

That's 75% of Americans, and does not nessesarily mean 75% of gamers don't have the internet.
Re:Limiting number of customers? by Momomoto · 2004-10-23 08:18 · Score: 1

You're over-simplifying. I highly doubt that the 25% that don't have internet access all have computers. I'm sure that, by now, anywhere from 5 to 10% of people who have computers don't have internet access, and they don't play games anyway. Except for Solitaire and Minesweeper.

--
"Max, come over here. French-Canadian bean soup. I want to pay. Let them leave me alone." - Dutch Schultz

Hay... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 05:39 · Score: 0

This is big news, why isn't it on the main page? I would think that the other slashdotters who don't read the games section would be interested in hearing about how single player games are now going the product activation route.

You want to look at the gamer % by Numeric · 2004-10-23 05:50 · Score: 1

HL2 is a world wide game so you're numbers you are viewing are incorrect.

the question is:
Of the percentage of gamers, how many have internet access?

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-- ladies and gentlemen we are floating in space!

Re:You want to look at the gamer % by NetDanzr · 2004-10-23 14:21 · Score: 1

I'm a gamer, and I don't have Internet access. At least not on my gaming computer. The only PC that I connected to the Internet is my old one, with nothing but a browser, e-mail client, firewall and antivirus program. I wouldn't want it any other way...

This defeats the purpose of the box.... by rsilvergun · 2004-10-23 05:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

The whole point of getting a box is you can install the CDs even if Valve goes under and stops running activation servers. Welp, no more. It's pretty annoying actually. I think I can expect Microsoft to be running Activation servers 10 years from now (if only out of fear of a 250 million+ class action lawsuit), but a game company? It's like divx all over again....

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Some of you guys just don't get it! by Fallen+Andy · 2004-10-23 06:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

Oh no not again (crashing bowl of petunias time).
I'm going to ROTFL because the innocent notion of
requiring "Product Activation" has not so innocent
consequences.

Here goes:
Once upon a time there was a Greek company (yes, I'm the dumb programmer who had to do it) who thought that having a product *locked* to a machine was a good idea. They thought about Dongles (yuck) and other stuff, and eventually came up with a relatively innocous scheme.

So, they *required* product activation. Here's the bad news. Customers machines *break* and hence they trouble your support lines in lemming like droves. So, the more product you sell - the *LESS*
money you make because you have to hire more zombies for the support dept. (So, in our case a
$20 product ended up losing us $21... - or something like that).

AAARRGGHH!

One activation code - yes, and then forever more you allow *reactivation* on other machines. OK, that doesn't kill piracy, but you have to take the
rough with the smooth here...

(and remember you don't know how much information
is going back over the wire about your machine + environment. Get seriously FUDDED). Hell, just buy
from another company. (Like the Coca Cola classic
fiasco, if they want to sell it they'll have to listen).

Re:Some of you guys just don't get it! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 14:55 · Score: 0

One activation code - yes, and then forever more you allow *reactivation* on other machines.

This doesn't apply to Steam.

With Steam, you can run your games on any machine, so long as you log in with your username/pass on that machine. You just can't run the game with that username on more than one machine at a time. Product registration is tied to Steam accounts, not individual machines.

Also, Steam has an offline mode, though it admittedly requires the computer to have been online at some point to work.

You still have a choice by Datasage · 2004-10-23 06:17 · Score: 0

The orginal half-life has to be one of the most pirated games ever. We used to play alot of CS and HL at the lan parties i went to. Some people bought the game, while many other pirated it. Without steam we could play lan games with each other just fine.

The people who orginally bought the game now use steam to play. Everyone else complains that steam sucks because they dont want to buy a copy of the game.

Al they are doing is making it harder for those who cant understand the idea that you have to buy the game to play it. If your are in one of those situations where you cant connect to the internet to activate the game, then dont buy the game. A majority of gamers have some form of access to the internet.

--
In America we are imprisoned by our fear of them.

Re:You still have a choice by Shaiken · 2004-10-23 06:40 · Score: 1

The people who bought the game when it came out can't even use steam. I HAVE bought the game. I HAVE the CD key. Unfortunately steam expects a totally different key (letters and numbers, and more of them) than I have.
Re:You still have a choice by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 07:19 · Score: 1, Interesting

Really? After installing Steam, I was able to go find all the old CD-keys I had and activate them with Steam, download the games and play them with absolutely no problem. The best part is that for HL1, I didn't even have the game anymore - only the cd-key. So thanks to Steam, I no longer had to go without it just becuase I lost the disc. W00t!
Re:You still have a choice by arose · 2004-10-23 07:20 · Score: 1

AFAIK they still made obscene amounts of cash.

--
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Re:You still have a choice by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 07:39 · Score: 0

Al they are doing is making it harder for those who cant understand the idea that you have to buy the game to play it.

CS built an enormous community on those illegitimate numbers. Locking out the so-called thieves will probably just drive them to a different game... where their numbers will create another enormous community which can be profited from.

What's better, to have 30,000 pirates and 70,000 legit customers playing your game, or to have no pirates and 50,000 legit customers?
Re:You still have a choice by Glendale2x · 2004-10-23 08:31 · Score: 1

The people who bought the game when it came out can't even use steam. I HAVE bought the game. I HAVE the CD key. Unfortunately steam expects a totally different key (letters and numbers, and more of them) than I have.

Here's what worked for me:

1) Install HL from the CD like you would in the pre-Steam days. CD key is accepted and stuff.

2) Install the updates, agian, pre-Steam stuff.

3) Install Steam. Steam asks me if I want top import my pre-Steam HL stuff, including any mods like Firearms that are third party.

4) Steam grinds away doing something, but never asked me for a CD key. Eventually it prompts me to create a Steam account username/password.

5) Done.

Of course, Steam may have changed since I did that, but I never tried entering a pre-Steam CD key into Steam itself. I always installed HL and then Steam after the fact.

--
this is my sig
Re:You still have a choice by mink · 2004-10-27 01:56 · Score: 1

Depends on what percentage of each group are total asshats.

--
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.

Thanx valve by ramunas · 2004-10-23 06:21 · Score: 5, Insightful

so how am I supposed to play it when it's imposiible for me to use STEAM?!?! I must use a proxy server to connect to the internet, which is also used by many other people, so port-forwarding is not an option. Therefore no steam for my PC. And thus I can't even play the legitimate version of it, oh well I guess I'm just going to need to find a cracked, boot-legged version of it anyway :(

--
./R My blog

Re:Thanx valve by arose · 2004-10-23 06:44 · Score: 2, Funny

We are not sure about your particular setup, please buy a retail package to test it out*. * Opened packages can not be returned. Thanks for your interest in Half Life 2, Valve

--
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Re:Thanx valve by cannon+fodder+0109 · 2004-10-23 07:56 · Score: 1

I did something similar with Doom 3. When I got my preordered copy, put it in the drive and found it wouldn't work because of Deamon tools installed on my PC, I just put it back in the box and downloaded a cracked version using bittorrent. "No problem with that" you might say as I bought a copy so ID software got paid for their work - except that while downloading it bittorent uploaded almost 2 copies worth, just one more example of how excessive copy protection actually hurts the games industry. Note: I use Deamon tools because my DVD drive has run out of region changes (I live in the UK and watch an approximatly 50:50 mix of region 1 and 2 DVDs as anime is usually released region 1 long before region 2 and I'm too impatient to wait) and there are not any firmware updates available yet to workaround this. So to watch a DVD from a different region I have to rip it and mount the ISO.

--
Pick up the bread knife and carve your way into forensic history
Re:Thanx valve by wheany · 2004-10-23 10:47 · Score: 1

Copy protection always hurts legitimate buyers only. There will always be someone whose cd-rom drive is not compatible with the copy protection scheme. Copy protection has never stopped people from running a pirated version of the game on their pc. The same thing applies to copy protection in music.
Re:Thanx valve by westlake · 2004-10-23 18:44 · Score: 1

So to watch a DVD from a different region I have to rip it and mount the ISO.
Why not simply install a second, dirt-cheap, DVD-ROM drive for Region 1 play and be done with it?
Re:Thanx valve by cannon+fodder+0109 · 2004-10-23 23:36 · Score: 1

Two reasons: 1. I don't see why I should have to buy extra hardware to watch a DVD I already bought, bearing in mind that the reason why DVD-ROMs were made with only a limited number of region changes has now passed (as most standalone DVD players now come from the shop with the ability to change regions). 2. I already have four IDE devices and buying a PCI IDE card adds expense, complexity, increased boot times, and another set of drivers for windows to break at innoportune moments.

--
Pick up the bread knife and carve your way into forensic history
Re:Thanx valve by Yer+Mom · 2004-10-24 21:15 · Score: 1

You might find something like DVD Region-Free speeds the process up a tad.
Mind you, Doom 3 doesn't seem to like it when that's installed, either, so your main point still holds...

--
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Re:Thanx valve by rpillala · 2004-10-25 02:44 · Score: 1

Maybe they'll have telephone activation? I guess the thing does say activation by STEAM. Well then maybe they don't care if they lose some people if they reduce shrink by a lot.

--
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
Re:Thanx valve by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-04 14:24 · Score: 0

Of course, you could always just not play the game. Please realize that the lack of a sale will hurt them, but if you get a boot-legged version, they'll write you off as a pirate. If you just don't buy a copy at all, that sends a message.

Some people are not thinking straight. by ryulinho · 2004-10-23 06:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

I am already entitled to a copy of Half-Life 2. I have purchased an ATI video card what seems to me now like ages ago. Had I not, I would have thought about buying Half-Life 2. I know many who might have been interested in purchasing it as well. After this, no one I know or I would ever consider buying the product, would it be only out of spite. This new security measure is ludicrous.

I anticipate more than usual will now be downloading it from an alternative source (no pun intended) more simply than Steam users will. This will be done without silly activations being required and possibly days before November 16th.

Congrats to Valve, they managed to alienate another chunk of the gaming community with this decision.

Other areas affected by this? by DumbWhiteGuy777 · 2004-10-23 06:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

First of all, I want to say this is totally uncalled for. I dunno why they can't just go Blizzard's route and make only one CD-key run at once online. You can't really get an online key for Starcraft without buying it, and it's been out for years.

Also, I want to know how this will affect reselling of the game. Let's say in a few months I'm tired of HL2 and decide to sell it to a friend or something. Will he be unable to make a steam ID? Will he have to use mine? Because that would suck a bit.

It just seems they put way too much into this stuff when there are such easy answers already out.

CD-key is tied to account, by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 06:46 · Score: 0

So what if someone steals my steam account? I can't even install my own game anymore?

Re:You still have a choice, steam is evil! by majid_aldo · 2004-10-23 07:20 · Score: 1

ME TOO! this is my problem and their 'solution' for me

http://steampowered.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/steampowe red.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=235&p_crea ted=1095126034&p_sid=cFjGYAnh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNo PSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD0yND ImcF9wYWdlPTI*&p_li=

from.. http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=125069&cid=104 84759

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UT2K4 by DeadBugs · 2004-10-23 07:48 · Score: 1

Unreal Tournament 2004 came out with a patch so that you do not need to even have the CD in the drive to run the game.

So instead of limiting the use of thier product, they listen to their customers and make the product better. (not too mention their support of mods is the best in the industry).

--
http://www.kubuntu.org/

Re:UT2K4 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 13:36 · Score: 0

The only reason they released a nocd crack is because the majority of pirates already have the game. It does make sense, and I'm not condoning their actions or anything, but it's quite obvious what they're doing.

1. They release the game with protection, hoping to stop 'casual pirates'
2. 'Scene Pirates' crack the game, and distribute it to all who want a free copy
3. A few months later, after the pirated copies have died down, Epic releases a patch that gets rid of the CD requirement. They're not going to lose much more money on pirates, so their customers shouldn't suffer any longer.

Whines by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 08:16 · Score: 0

Good god. You know, all technical issues regarding extra cruft necessary to use software we've purchased -- we've created this. Not the marketing guys, and not the game companies.

Stop downloading shit for free. All of you. Those of you who run torrent servers, take the software down.

Re:Whines by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 09:34 · Score: 0

And those whinning about the whinners, don't assume that all of us who are complaing are pirates!

In this thread there are quit a few legit buyers like me who have problems with this scheme.

lombardi@valvesoftware.com by theraccoon · 2004-10-23 08:23 · Score: 1

I'm not sure Doug read's slashdot, so I think it might be best to email him your thoughts and opinions of HL2 and Steam. He can be reached at lombardi@valvesoftware.com . I'm certain he'd appriciate your feedback.

Re:lombardi@valvesoftware.com by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 09:29 · Score: 0

I don't know if he is as responsive as the others, since he was marketing I emailed him asking if the stuff offered in the gold edition would be offered separately, and he never got back to me.

Looking through this thread, it looks like Gabe Newell (gaben@valvesoftware.com) is more responsive, so you are better off contacting him. If he does respond, please consider posting his answer there so that the question doesn't get repeated, and this helps make him more likely to answer other questions people might have.
Re:lombardi@valvesoftware.com by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 23:50 · Score: 0

Here's the email I sent to Doug. Feel free to use it as a basis for your own letters. Remember to be polite even if you wouldn't feel like it. You get better results that way:

Hello

According to a recent interview on Gamespy, Half-Life 2 will require a Steam account and product activation over the internet, even for the singleplayer component.

I think this is totally unacceptable. If I buy a boxed game I expect to be able to just play it, instead of begging for some company to give me permission to use software I paid good money for.

These kinds of product activation schemes are totally counterproductive because

A) pirates will always get around them
B) they are an annoyance to legitimate users who feel treated like criminals

If the final version has any kind of a mandatory product activation I will simply not buy it. That would be a shame, since I was really looking forward to HL2.

Sincerely
My Name

Well, that's just great. by ashground · 2004-10-23 08:28 · Score: 1

I've been looking forward to Half Life 2. A lot. And I was entirely willing to fork over the money the day it came out. As luck would have it, the computer I game on doesn't have an internet connection. It's either sitting at home, where I only have dial-up and the computer I game on doesn't even have a modem, or at dorm behind a freaky proxy that would never let Steam through. Trust me. Valve, I want to give you my business. I love Half Life. I expect I'll love Half Life 2, and I'll buy it as soon as there's a crack. But don't you find it a little silly that I need to crack the game before I can even play it? And what happens when I want to play it again in thirty years, and Steam doesn't exist anymore? Are you going to release an -official- crack, then? *Shakes head* I just don't get it. I mean, even when you have to phone Microsoft to register Windows XP, at least it works and everyone is more or less capable of it.

pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by Malor · 2004-10-23 08:55 · Score: 4, Interesting

They may have a point.

There was a bug in Cstrike recently where if someone changed their name to include a " %n ", it would immediately crash the server and all the clients. They rolled out the fix sometime Monday, I think.

About Wednesday, one of the players on the server I was on changed his name to include a %n. This blew away about half the people on the server. Why? Because the pirates didn't have the fixed version yet.

As long as he sat there with the %n, nobody with a pirated game could logon, and the 40-person server was unable to climb above about 24 people. Normally, it's at 40 players 95% of the time.

Pirated Counterstrike, in other words, is extremely, extremely common. I don't know if it's deliberate on Valve's part, but they don't seem to be doing a good job AT ALL of shutting out the thieves. One thought that comes to mind is that maybe they're trying to get online 'buzz' early on, by making sure there are lots of Cstrike players. Perhaps they'll get more aggressive about shutting down pirates once the game hits store shelves.

But, it is also possible that they CAN'T for some reason... which, if true, doesn't encourage me that they'll get CS:S terribly cheat-free.

Looked like about 50-60% pirated copies on the server I was on. Real shame.

Re:pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by pkhuong · 2004-10-23 09:35 · Score: 1

Or maybe they never heard of the vulnerability/didn't care enough to patch. Is it a big surprise that ~50% of the people out there aren't up to date on all the vulnerabilities affecting the software they use?

--
Try Corewar @ www.koth.org - rec.games.corewar
Re:pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 10:43 · Score: 1, Insightful

Patches are automatically downloaded and applied by Steam - only people with non-legit copies would have to patch manually.
Re:pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by pkhuong · 2004-10-23 11:36 · Score: 1

Heh. Thanks, i didn't know: I stopped playing when 1.6 came out (school, started losing interest). Still, i _never_ heard of the vulnerability!

--
Try Corewar @ www.koth.org - rec.games.corewar
Re:pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by node159 · 2004-10-23 12:12 · Score: 1

That is pretty dubious, like saying that all cars that are not licensed are stolen.

Your logic is flawed, Imposter detected in the volcan high council!

--
GPLv2: I want my rights, I want my phone call! DRM: What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
Re:pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by theraccoon · 2004-10-23 15:20 · Score: 1

I'm curious how one pirates a FREE game? Cstrike is available for free, LEGAL download, folks. Always has been, and it always better be.
Re:pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by Malor · 2004-10-23 16:32 · Score: 1

I should have been clearer that this is Counterstrike:Source, which is not a free game. You must own Half Life 2 to play it.
Re:pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 16:51 · Score: 0

He was talking about cs: source. There is some sort of flaw in steam, they were able to emulate a steam connection to allow the warezed version to play online. Frankly, I've never seen a company fuck up copy protection so bad that even multiplayer is unprotected. I might understand if it was Vavle's first game but it is not and they have had years of experience with this topic. They are poor coders that cannot create an exploit free game if God gave them a hand. Its so sad to be addicted to cs when the men behind it are complete dorks.
Re:pirating is REALLY common on cstrike by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 19:26 · Score: 0

It's a vulnerability in CS: Source, the GParent wasn't clear on this.

Who cares? by ZeeCog · 2004-10-23 09:06 · Score: 1, Insightful

Seems like an excellent way to combat piracy to me.

--

-Zeecog

Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 12:52 · Score: 0

You are obviously a person of little intelligence.

Pirates will have no problem getting through this.
Re:Who cares? by ZeeCog · 2004-10-24 07:40 · Score: 1

That was uncalled for.

--
-Zeecog

UT2004 tips, and a little rant by MachDelta · 2004-10-23 09:32 · Score: 1

Here's a little tip or two to get UT2004 to load faster, seeing as how it made your list.

First, download the latest patch. Hell, download just about ANY patch. Epic removed the useless CD check as soon as they could get the OK from their publisher.

Second, open up your UT2004.ini file (in the 'system' folder), and find the line that says "LocalMap=NvidiaLogo.ut2" and change it to read "LocalMap=NoIntro.ut2". This will skip the nVidia advertisment by pointing to a blank intro instead (which Epic has kindly included with the game).

Tada. Your game will now load straight to the menu.

The problem these days isn't so much with developers as it is publishers. Game developers, obviously, tend to be gamers themselves. They know that CD checks suck, keys are largely useless, ads are a waste of time, and whatnot. But if they want to get their product on a shelf, they have to play along with their publisher. And since publishers only care about these little guys: $$$, they mandate that every little thing they could possibly do to save or make a buck goes into their 'product'. Thus, we get CD checks and advertisments and other annoying 'features' because some asshole in a suit likes bigger numbers instead of happier customers.

This is why this stuff Valve is trying to pull is such a shocker. They're devs. They're supposed to be on OUR side, but what they're doing is decidedly publisher-like. I'm not sure whats happened to them, but lately they seem to be smelling more of Armani and less of coke and stale pizza. So that sound you're hearing is a million gamers chewwing their nails and raising their eyebrows in the fear that VALVe is gonna pull an Anakin Skywalker -> Darth Vader routine. I sure hope they don't, but since i'm not a Half-Life fan and have never completely trusted valve in the first place, I certainly won't be shedding any tears if they start reading their press releases with a *inhale* respirator *pssh*.

Here's hoping things get better before they get worse.

Re:UT2004 tips, and a little rant by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 15:08 · Score: 0

This is why this stuff Valve is trying to pull is such a shocker. They're devs. They're supposed to be on OUR side, but what they're doing is decidedly publisher-like.

That's because Valve is the publisher in this case. One of the possible uses for Steam, and one of the things that has Vivendi getting nervous, is to completely cut the normal plastic-disc publishers out of the loop (for gamers with broadband, at least).

And, you know what? I bet you that if Valve goes under in the years to come, they will release a Steam patch that disables the need to authenticate games. It would be the easiest thing to do. It would mean, of course, that you could no longer install a game if you bought it over Steam (and thus didn't have a disc), but you'd still be able to play it, and you'd still be able to back it up to whatever media you like.
Re:UT2004 tips, and a little rant by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 22:53 · Score: 0

"going to"?

Copy protected CDs, cd-keys, etc do work by AHumbleOpinion · 2004-10-23 10:42 · Score: 2, Informative

This'll barely even slow the warezers down. I bet there'll be a crack out within a week of release, if there isn't one already

Most piracy is casual, if it is trivially easy for a non-technical person they will do it. Put up the slightest barrier and most will give up and buy the game if they really wanted it. Copy protected CDs, cd-keys, etc are popular because they work. They stop the vast majority of would be pirates. The part of the population that can manage to find a warez site, get a crack that is not a trojan, and successfully apply the crack is a very small niche. A friend does in-home computer service and hears about it alot as he chats with customers. I've seen college kids stopped cold by the simplest commercially available protection. One quarter the software accompanying a chemistry textbook was not copy protected. The book and software were required, the book outsold the software 10 to 1 yet everyone turned in their software based homework projects. The publisher added copy protection and the next quarter the ration was 10 to 9. The commercial software used is well known and cracks exist to neutralize it, yet it works for this publisher quarter after quarter.

FWIW I'll throw in that it is a myth that people won't pirate inexpensive software. The textbook came with a coupon that let the student by the software for $15.

Re:Copy protected CDs, cd-keys, etc do work by KDR_11k · 2004-10-23 22:54 · Score: 1

But you don't need a full blown DRM system to deter casual pirates when even the simplest copy protection could already stop them. Simple protection wards off the casuals but who are things like product activation, StarForce, etc targeted at?

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:Copy protected CDs, cd-keys, etc do work by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 22:32 · Score: 0

Put up the slightest barrier and most will give up and buy the game if they really wanted it.

In this case, it's "Put up the slightest barrier to running the original and most will give up and install the pirated version if they really wanted it."

Apart from that, where I live it is quite different from what you describe. Everyone has a pirated copy of a game, but just try to find a shop where you can buy it... Personally I prefer having the original (Being a programmer myself, and hoping some day to be a game programmer), but I still have games that I still haven't found anywhere to buy.
Re:Copy protected CDs, cd-keys, etc do work by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 19:02 · Score: 0

but who are things like product activation, StarForce, etc targeted at?

The users who were going to buy the game originally, it seems.
Re:Copy protected CDs, cd-keys, etc do work by mink · 2004-10-27 01:12 · Score: 1

I dont know how long you have been playing computer games, but no copy protection ever has been the slightest barrier to the most trivial of copying.
Back in the 80's we had floppy based protections and they all failed or were trivial to defeat. Most of those old ideas were dropped by sane software companies when it was clear they didnt work but to screw legit customers.
Strangely most of todays so called copy protection seems to be re-hashes of the same old ideas just done on optical media instead of magnetic.
Clonecd/Alcahol120%/DVDxcopy are todays versions of the copyIIpc and it's ilk.

--
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
Re:Copy protected CDs, cd-keys, etc do work by AHumbleOpinion · 2004-10-27 10:39 · Score: 1

What is trivial to you is not trivial to the typical gamer. And yes I've been seeing simple copy protection work since the 80s. Nobody expects it to work 100% of the time. As a developer I never wanted it, didn't want the complication, maybe it was NIH syndrome. However publishers often required it. Problems usually involved marginal hardware and were few enough to be ofset by increased sales. YMMV.

Why not send Gabe Newell your "Love" of this idea? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 10:47 · Score: 0

gaben@valvesoftware.com

Thats where my money will go! by node159 · 2004-10-23 12:05 · Score: 1

You know I have been toying with how to waste my time, looking at different games.

I brought HL way back in the day, now I'm pretty pissed at Steam, I've played it quite a bit, but the more I do the more I hate it. All I play now days is Sven on 1.6 and luckily there are still a tone of 1.5 CS servers near me. I don't think they will be upgrading any time soon.

Some things to bitch about steam:

* Not everyone has a 10MBit pipe!
* Releasing patches every couple of days is not fun, I want to play now not download!
* Steam DOES go down, especially on Friday nights. This really sucks if your planning to have a lan.
* Steam authentication servers are running on Windowz Boxes! See above.
* Ohh yeah and breaking support of gamespy and other such suxs.
* Forcing me to watch your ads is really cheap.
* Don't try and coerce me into buying more games from you. All I want to do is have the games I can play now listed!
* Breaking HL single player is really lame (elevator bug), not fixing it after a million other patches really suxs.
* Surreptitiously preloading games that I have to buy is REALLY LOW. You cost me bandwidth and then expect me to be happy to be bombarded with ads to buy your game?!

The more I use it the more I feel like Valve and associates don't give a shit about their customers. The reality is that HL was a good game, but without a lucky mod made by the community it would be long forgotten by now.

I was planning to buy the retail version of HL2 even though it would have been easier for me to just activate it via steam since it already preloads without asking.

You have just lost yourself a customer.

Reality is I'll probably get dumped a steam free copy at a LAN, play SP once or twice and leave it at that if things this year have been any indication.

As for UT2k4, its looking more and more appealing. I've been toying with the demo and been pondering buying it. The fact that THEY release a nocd patch so I don't need to mess with CD swapping/cracking for a server hosted Virtual CD makes it very appealing. I mean I always end up cracking it anyway because of this, but it's a real hassle. I think I know where the money that would have gone to HL2 is going.

--
GPLv2: I want my rights, I want my phone call! DRM: What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?

to quote the game, by Unknown+Poltroon · 2004-10-23 12:26 · Score: 1

"Forget freeman, im out of here!!"

--
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.

20 years from now... by XST1 · 2004-10-23 12:41 · Score: 1

20 years from now long after steam is extinct, how the hell am i supposted to play this game?

Re:20 years from now... by TheBot · 2004-10-23 13:27 · Score: 1

We'll still be here 20 years from now? Whoa, that just throws my whole future off man. Thanks a lot.

--
Flat Screen TV for F
Re:20 years from now... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 19:52 · Score: 0

Do you want to buy my Vic20?

Guess I won't by buying this after all by Banner · 2004-10-23 13:38 · Score: 1

When I buy something, I don't expect to have to call the manufacter just to be able to use it.

I think I'll just wait for a pirate hack and not give any of my money to Valve after all now.

Re:Guess I won't by buying this after all by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 14:48 · Score: 0

"I think I'll just wait for a pirate hack and not give any of my money to Valve after all now."

And thats EXACTLY why Valve is resorting to such measures!

Dumb Fuck!
Re:Guess I won't by buying this after all by Banner · 2004-10-24 06:13 · Score: 1

Dumb? Not at all. Valve is always going to lose some money to people ripping them off, it's part of the price of doing business.

But if they piss me and a good deal of the rest of their faithful customers off, they're not going to get our money anymore, which will hurt their profits even more, and the people who ripped them off in the past will either a) rip them off again with a hack, or b) just not bother playing their game.

So in short, you're the dumb fuck cause you do not understand economics at all, or that Valve's change will hurt them and not help them.

And don't forget all those people who CAN NOT connect to the internet. They're gonna love being shut out too.
Re:Guess I won't by buying this after all by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 13:23 · Score: 0

Like I said. You ar the dumb fuck. It is your kind that is forcing companies to adopt such methods.

You were likely going to pirate it anyway.
Re:Guess I won't by buying this after all by Banner · 2004-10-25 17:03 · Score: 1

No, I've bought every copy of Half life I ever owned.
Re:Guess I won't by buying this after all by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 19:45 · Score: 0

Don't bother feeding the rabid fanboys, they can only handle and process so much information.

Here is about all the drivel I have read from them so far, and a lot of it is repeated several times in the steam forum topic discussing this:
"You are a pirate, anyone who hates this much be a pirate, even those who say they will be buying the game and cracking it."
"ROLOLOL ur complain about innterweb connection butt you have one to post thsi lololo!!one"
"Every one is only getting HL2 for online play with CS:S!"
"OMG how can you hate steam it is blah blah blah.."
"I like this because it means you darn dirty pirates can play this!"
"It's valve's game, you have no say in the matter."
"You shouldn't have any control over what you legally purchased."
"How dare you complain about things! As Valve's official brown nosing fanboy I am going to go on a exaggerated rant on things that set me off, miss the main points, and fail in my lame attempt at Karma whoring.
"The pirates can not break the super duper double triple secret rot 13 encryption."
"The pirates will all be found, be fined $100,000,000.00 and killed by Valve!"

Like other have said, all this authentication scheme does is hurt people, like me, who legally purchase their software. I bought all my games, I might buy HL2, but I do not like having to authenticate just to be able to play single player.

Yes I have an Internet connection, yes I can authenticate it, but I do not like not having control of the software I legally purchased and own removed from me. How would you like it if all your favorite games stopped working, and you couldn't play single player in any of your classic games years from now? This is just one of the reasons people have a problem with this.

Just like XP by Taulin · 2004-10-23 15:23 · Score: 1

For those that don't have internet connections, I bet signup is just like XP. They will have a toll-free number to call, and you will get a registration key after giving them a key on the box. This key will probably be able to be used on all the local copies you instal, just like XP. If this is not the case...well, it HAS to be the case.

Re:Just like XP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 22:13 · Score: 0

Nope sorry, its been confirmed. Requires an internet connection. Check gamespy, or valve statements on steam forums. There is no phone number you can call either.

I second that BECAUSE by Man+in+Spandex · 2004-10-23 15:42 · Score: 1

It's no surprise, there is a lot of pirating but every customer is treated like one and that's the main problem.

The problem is they still have no solution on how to stop them and you know what? Until now, it's been years of software dev and pirating thru the net and nobody has found a perfect solution. This means, in theory, you can't stop crackers. This doesn't mean companies should give up but it certainly doesn't mean they should treat loyal fans like one.

I'l leave the problem-solving to you guys.

Re:I second that BECAUSE by mink · 2004-10-27 01:19 · Score: 1

Yup.
A few years ago I went in and Bought Sim Golf because of whose name was on it and how much I like his earlyer games. I alwaus bought them.

I get it home and pop it into my CD-R (Only cd-rom I had) a Plextor 4/20 and install it. When I try to play I get a "Please insert original media" message. This was on the original media.

I contact tech support and they tell me I need to buy a new CD-rom drive to play the game. Thats a real nice "Fuck You" from them. I wrote back telling them what I thought of them and the $40 something I cant get refunded for open software and instead cracked it in less time then it would have taken to search pricewatch for a cd-rom.

--
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.

Not that bad, really. Decapitate me all you wish. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 16:25 · Score: 0

i guess im an anonymous coward because i dont feel like registering...

Steams is improving, ill tell you that. It takes very little time for me to get in to a game of counterstrike:source. Steam is convienient in that it auto-updates your games (usually in the background, while being smart enough not to restrict your net connection when its being used), and it has built in IM (the Friends network is improving and hardly ever down anymore.) Basically, now that its a required element, VALVe is improving and stabilizing Steam asap. My only issue is the allegedly eternal appeals process if your ID is banned for something you didnt do...

Going against slashthink by (SM)+Spacemonkey · 2004-10-23 17:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't mind. From a technical standpoint, I actually am quite fond of steam. As far as activation goes, I am comfortable with the internet, and already have a steam account. But that is just *me*

Beyond *me* why cannot Valve's sell a product in any manner they wish. If they want to put "internet required" on the the box, and only sell it to people who can activate via the internet. Well what is wrong with that? Where exactally is Valve's obligation to make and sell Half Life 2 to you, exactally as you would like it?

I am not sure I understand all the indignation surrounding this story. If you do not like the manner in which Valve sells its product, then do not spend your money on it. An aggregate approximation of your choice will be clear in the market. However, somehow I do not think the market will side with you, and Half Life 2 will be successful. Discussion welcome.

Re:Going against slashthink by antigrimace · 2004-10-23 18:32 · Score: 1

Great response. Even though there are those here who say they wont buy the game because of activation, it wont stop this game from making boatloads of money. Besides the main reason for many people to get HL2 is to play CS:Source which requires internet access so no big deal. Yes it is too bad for the 1% of people who don't have net access that want this game, but you cant please all the people all the time. But besides that, people in general need to curb their zealous indignation about privacy invasion. Get over yourselves, your lives are not really that interesting. The only reason I could see someone getting their nose out of joint is if there *is* something ( illegal ) that they don't want other to know about. Otherwise, really, your lives and privacy is secure.
Re:Going against slashthink by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 01:58 · Score: 0

"Yes it is too bad for the 1% of people who don't have net access that want this game, but you cant please all the people all the time."

Ah, but this doesn't mean that making a special effort to piss off those 'Net-less people is a good thing, does it?

Here is the truth: it will not affect pirates and those who support them one little bit.

It will only inconvenience legitimate users, whom Valve should be encouraging, instead of punishing.

And as for your thoughts regarding privacy, please reply to this post with your credit card numbers, personal ID numbers, and home telephone number, and then sit back and relax, because I'm sure they're not very interesting. ;-)

(HINT: I'm kidding, don't do this.)

Try to think clearly now by emarkp · 2004-10-23 17:54 · Score: 1

Beyond *me* why cannot Valve's sell a product in any manner they wish. If they want to put "internet required" on the the box, and only sell it to people who can activate via the internet. Well what is wrong with that? Where exactally is Valve's obligation to make and sell Half Life 2 to you, exactally as you would like it?

I get so tired of comments like these. Look Spacemonkey no one is saying Valve can't sell their game with restrictions. What you're seeing is Valve's market responding negatively to their planned actions. Understand? Is it really that complicated? Many people are tired of having to ask for permission to play their games after paying for them. Just because technology makes it possible doesn't mean that it's acceptable.

Additionally, this may in fact be illegal in the US. Buying a product is subject to the "first sale doctrine" in the US, which includes the right to resell a product. If I buy boxed software in the store, I do so with the expectation to be able to resell it when I'm done with it (just like a book, CD, etc.).

Re:Try to think clearly now by (SM)+Spacemonkey · 2004-10-23 18:15 · Score: 1

Just out of interest, how far does first sale go for software? Software isn't a physical product... its intangiable and easily copied without loss of the original. Also,contemporary software tends to come in two parts, an application which performs a function and a service from the company that supports that application. The way I see it, Valve is selling an application and a service at the same time, and obviously the two are connected. They are selling Half Life 2 the game. Then steam the service which allows patches, mods, multiplayer, etc. If you wish to re-sell your game, is the purchaser also entitled to the service that Valve does in support of the intial purchase? If not, how much is the standalone application worth compared to the application service bundle? And are services covered by first sale? If not, and Valve makes this service part of their product, why should Half Life 2 be subject to first sale?

Fire and forget by westlake · 2004-10-23 19:22 · Score: 1

Doug Lombardi: During installation the user will be prompted to authenticate the copy and create a Steam account. After that is complete, the single-player and LAN games do not require an internet connection.

Five minutes into the game and activation will be forgotten.

Re:Fire and forget by cjpez · 2004-10-24 01:57 · Score: 1

Five minutes into the game and activation will be forgotten.
Er, right. That's why I was using phrases like "on a new installation" and "to install the game." I realize that that's certainly not as big a deal as talking to the internet every time the game is started, but for me it's still unacceptable.

--
Al Qaeda has ninjas!

,,,and no one gives a damn by westlake · 2004-10-23 19:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

Half-Life 2 is #1 on the Amazon sales list.

Valve is no longer cutting edge. by PerpetualMotion · 2004-10-23 19:56 · Score: 1

At one time they may have been the cream of the crop, but now first person shooters are a dime a dozen, with vehicles and as many modes of play as you can count.

They were only made famous originally by their great story line, and then by their SDK, but now these features are practically requisite in all games, or better done in separate games such as Single Player: Max Payne 2 or Multi: Battlefield Anything. America's Army is innovative, always being updated, and pretty easy on the eyes which make it on par with most of Half-Life with a kicker of being free. If they got anywhere as much press as these games who's publishers own half the review sites, they would be the most played game.

"Half-Life 2 goes gold today, oh, and America's Army is still free and available for download. The latest major patch was just one month ago."

If there was any life left in the Half-Life brand, they are killing it with Steam and waited far to long to release a sequel. People have moved on and there really isn't much reason to move back.

Re:Valve is no longer cutting edge. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 02:58 · Score: 0

I disagree: Valve is now on the cutting edge of putting revenue ahead of customer satisfaction. They're only trailing Evil Overlord Microsoft and Symantec now.

Windows XP: product activation.
Norton 2004/2005 products: product activation.
My wallet to these complanies: firewalled.

Bad moove by Lord_Dweomer · 2004-10-23 20:36 · Score: 1

Sorry Valve, you just lost a customer. I'm a college student (part of your prime demographic) and I am deciding to put my money elsewhere. I've been playing bf:1942/vietnam and all the mods for it for ages, and have considered buying UT2k4...and was also considering HL2, but you just changed my mind.

To the idiots in Valves marketing dept. from a fellow marketer: You FUCKED UP BIG TIME. Your game has lost its unique position in the world of good FPS. It has SERIOUS contenders for the first time in a long time, not to mention the only reason HL became big was because of CS, which was MADE BY FANS.

The same fans you have now pissed on AND off. Bad move indeed.

--
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!

Re:Bad moove by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 15:05 · Score: 0

I absolutely agree. I am a paying customer, but I will NEVER do "product activation." That's for Microsoft XP and etecetera losers. I have plenty of computers at home without internet connections, including my kids computers, for which I was looking forward to buying Half Life 2. But now, who needs it? I won't buy it, and I won't steal it, I'll just ignore it.

Product activation is like selling Christmas lights that don't light up. WHAT IS THE FRICKING POINT? What the hell is in the Kool-aid in these companies that the way they think is to succeed in the Marketplace is to piss off their paying customers?

Oh well, I'm off to play UT2004 on Linux now. Yes, the one I bought in the store. The one I bought because they made it so it could play on a real operating system. The one they made it so I can play it without the disk in the computer. You know, the one that the company was looking to sell a QUALITY product to its paying customers. Think I'll go and see what else I can buy from that company.

Hmm, I just happen to have some money in my pocket, was going to go to another game, can't even remember the name now. Think it was "Half Dead 2" or something like that. Anyway, I think I'll use that money to buy a good game, not a poor game...

If the quotes in TFA are accurate,then HalfLife company, you're a bunch of fucking idiots. You don't deserve my money.

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2004-10-23 21:35 · Score: 1

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Steam thread with more info by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-23 22:06 · Score: 0

There is a thread on the steam forums with much more info on this issue and possible fixes and workarounds to mitigate some of the problems with this.
http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php? s=&postid=1372673#post1372673

Beat me...make me feel cheap! by pyro+jackelope · 2004-10-24 02:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've dreaded that this would happen. When Steam -does- work, it's about as useful as a nail in my eye. This or that doesn't work..."you were unable to download the security token for the server"...you can't switch bloody arms in certain display modes! Now we have to rely on this to activate our software? Don't get me wrong, I love Valve, but if I wanted to spend a lot on software and get raped in the process, I'd use AOL.

--
28:06:42:12 - That is when the world will end...

Not for me then by Makarakalax · 2004-10-24 04:55 · Score: 1

I was going to buy this. It was going to hurt me because I know it'll cost a lot. However I refuse to fund this kind of behaviour so I'll just grab a copy from suprnova.org instead. Cheers Valve, you saved me some cash!

Where do you get your figures? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-24 08:42 · Score: 0

Do you have a fancy crystal ball, or do you just pull them out of your butt? I really doubt that most people are buying HL2 for CS:S. I have no intention to buy it for CS:S, and I am willing a lot of people are more interested in playing HL2 and HL source the playing CS:S. We, the legit buyers, do not like having to register our products just to play SINGLE-PLAYER. There wouldn't be as much of an outcry if the registration was just for online play.

We also like to be able to play our games years from now. What am I going to do if a few years form now value says they no longer support HL2 and HL source, and won't allow me to play my legally purchased copies?

What is Steam? by macdaddy · 2004-10-24 15:09 · Score: 1

No BSing. I don't know what it is. What is it and why's it bad?

Ok, I'll say it by laard · 2004-10-25 03:42 · Score: 1

With this information, I'm more likely to buy through steam, since it seems you have to install steam either way. Then again, maybe i'll be too busy with Halo 2 to notice HL2. There's always the "Game of the Year" edition that is sure to come in a few months.

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--- If we knew half the things we shouldn't we'd stop wishing we knew it all

Wizardry, Total Annihilation by PigeonGB · 2004-10-25 03:53 · Score: 1

The company that made the series has since gone out of business. I am grateful that to install the games I simply install them. The old DOS games required some copy protection but I bought the Wizardry Archives that Interplay put out where they basically removed such things (having a CDROM requiring you to put the installation floppy in made no sense obviously).

Software sticks around. Fortran and COBOL are still needed for legacy machines where the original programmers thought, "Oh they'll replace it with something better, so I can take some shortcuts and not worry about documentation."

I imagine that if Valve goes under in the future, they will release something to allow customers to play HL2 and other things without worrying about Steam. Still, to have it require you to do so during install is more frustrating than it is worth. People will see that the server is down and might not think to Google for whatever last patch they might have put out.

Total Annihilation is a great game, and Cavedog went under. The Boneyards was their multiplayer server, similar to Blizzard's Battle.net, and it is no longer available. Luckily, you can play TA without needed to use the Boneyards, and in fact other third-party Boneyard-replacements are available. If authentication would be required, how easy would it be to patch the game to allow this?

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Steaming Pile of Poo! by Teh+Anonymous+Coward · 2004-10-25 04:13 · Score: 0

Yet another reason why VALVe and it's terrible creation of steam blows. The only good I can see from this is that you don't need a CD to play, but you DO need an internet connection to play a single player game. Also, in the event you decide to log out of steam, and then you go to a LAN with no internet connection, there will be no way for you to log back into steam and play your LAN (or single player) game. Let's hear it for crap programs and crapy ideas!

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If I throw a stick, will you go away?

One Time Activation- Who cares??? by mconeone · 2004-10-25 04:14 · Score: 1

Its a ONE-TIME activation folks. Don't have an internet connection? Have a restrictive connection?

Just take the bus to Wal-Mart and pick up an AOL CD. Yes, it takes a credit card/debit card to install.

Once you're connected, install Half-Life 2. Once it's done, cancel your AOL subscription and enjoy your shiny new coaster.

Yeah, its awkward and takes time. But that's what you have to do if you want to play HL2.

Stop acting like its the end of the world. You activate once, and that's it. No more steam.

Re:One Time Activation- Who cares??? by |/|/||| · 2004-10-25 06:59 · Score: 1

I care. I was pretty excited about HL2. I would have happily forked over the 50 bucks to buy it.
You think the problem is that people don't have a net connection? I already have a cable modem, so connectivity is not a problem. The problem is that Valve wants to sell me software that will not work unless it talks to their server. This is BAD. I will not encourage it by buying the game. My options now are to either steal the game or to not play it at all. Why Valve would want me to have such a dilemma is beyond me.

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[javac] 100 errors
Re:One Time Activation- Who cares??? by mconeone · 2004-10-25 08:05 · Score: 1

Its still only a one-time steam session unless you plan on playing multiplayer...

Why is it bad? It only has to do it once. Steam has no spyware.

Why are your only options to steal or not play at all? Can't you install HL2, create your steam account, then turn steam on offline mode?

What the hell makes you think stealing the game will be ANY easier than purchasing HL2? With hacked software you never know what they took out and what they did not. For all you know it could install spyware itself.
Re:One Time Activation- Who cares??? by |/|/||| · 2004-10-25 08:54 · Score: 1

I'm not saying that it's easier to steal it, or even that I would. I'm saying that I won't support this kind of a precedent by buying the game.
My point is that it *would* be easy for me to install the game, allow it to connect once, and then disallow it in the future. I'm not concerned about Steam containing spyware or adware. I *am* concerned about all future software expecting to authenticate with a server either at install time, system startup, or every time the software is run. When I buy software, I expect it to work within my own sandbox, without any external dependencies (unless of course network communication is fundamental to the software, as in an online game).
It's not bad because it makes my life difficult. It's bad on principle. I won't buy it.

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[javac] 100 errors

They will, but they run the risk of being busted. by mconeone · 2004-10-25 04:19 · Score: 1

Hacked clients that play online can be detected by Valve. Its also going to screw with anyone who has a valid steam account and logs on regularly. They will either have to quit using their existing account or install on another machine.

Who cares about you??? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 06:39 · Score: 0

Stop acting like the fanboy know it all, and read the replys in this article.

You've got it all wrong by mconeone · 2004-10-25 08:30 · Score: 1

Its a one-time activation. You don't need to be logged into Steam the whole time, just that first time you install so certain files can be unlocked on your hard drive. After that, play offline all you want.

Re:You've got it all wrong by Teh+Anonymous+Coward · 2004-10-25 10:01 · Score: 0

If you don't have to have steam running, this is true. However, I think VALVe will still make you run steam. In any case, steam still fucks you over if you try to play at a LAN center with no internet.

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If I throw a stick, will you go away?

Mod THIS Up - What one person thinks about Steam by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-25 12:59 · Score: 0

What one person thinks about Steam.

http://64.92.160.2/steam.swf

Yeah, let's protect this juggernaut from piracy by danila · 2004-10-26 00:09 · Score: 1

Why is it that the most annoyng copy-restriction is found on the most popular titles? Why did Sims 2 have a multi-layer copy-restriction that took a week or so to correctly crack and made me return my copy (for a free replacement) to the pirate who sold me it in the first place? Why does Half-Life 2 need to have Steam activation of single-player game? I can understand all the "you have no right to play games for free" or "copying is theft" (even though I understand that it's bullshit), but wouldn't it be more correct at this point to simply say "give them a finger and they will bite your whole fucking hand". This is greed, pure and simple. Valve programmers don't have to worry about not getting paid, Valve itself (and even their poor publisher) don't have to worry about not selling enough copies. There is simply no reason for strong copy-restriction on hit titles except for the unadulterated greed.

I might feel some pity towards small developers who put out great titles (People can Fly with Painkiller, Crytek with Far Cry), but I simply refuse to care about monsters like Valve, id or 3D Realms. The big ones deserve no pity and if they annoy users with copy-restriction methods, they don't deserve any money either.

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Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.

Re:Yeah, let's protect this juggernaut from piracy by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-26 06:03 · Score: 0

You know, I bet this authentication scheme is tied with Valve's wanting to take control away from the publishers.

This scheme gives people a reason to setup a steam account, and ignoring cracks, forces the legal retail purchasers to register in order to play single player. Now things are easy for Valve, everyone must have steam accounts and everyone who wants to play must be registered through stream.

This scheme gives Valve a huge steam user base with little effort on their part. Now they can sell all their addons, games, mods, and upgrades without the publishers help.

No playing along by SmurfBoy04 · 2004-10-27 17:29 · Score: 1

If Valve is going to force everyone whom purchases Half-Life 2 to use Steam to "verify" that their copy is legit, then I will probably just pirate it.

Plain and simple, I don't like forced activation to play a legitimately purchased game, and I will not financially support such activity.

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Half-Life 2 Retail to Require Steam Activation

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