Slashdot Mirror
SMPTE Adoption Of WMV9 Hits Some Snags
SysKoll writes "EETimes is running an
interesting story about the future of the video codecs for HD DVDs. The Redmond Beast convinced both the Blu-ray Disc Association and the DVD Forum to adopt its WMV9 video codec over MPEG4 for the upcoming VC-1 standard that is mandated for high-definition video devices. That was a huge coup for MS. Now it turns out that Microsoft cheated and lied: its code is not as good as MPEG 4, the WMV9 reference implementation is not available, and the WMV9 test suite does not exercise all the features. The SMPTE might drop WMV9 after all. Apparently, a highly technical standard body is harder to snowjob than the usual clueless consumers."
I am shocked. Shocked and dismayed. Microsoft lied? My world is falling apart.
Team Microsoft, fuck yeah!
Finally finished and somewhat appropriate to post it here. Again, my apologies to the ones who wrote the original work...and no need to be upset y'all, it's supposed to be funny.
(chorus sung by DiiDdo of band Yank'n Grope)
My fee's all gone, I'm wondering why
I sold my soul at all --
The morning mail locked up my Windows,
They all call me a troll.
Even if they don't, everything I say
Gets all hackers' eyes to roll --
Still I tell me that it's not so bad,
It's not so bad...
Dear Bill, I wrote but you still ain't respondin'
I left e-mail, my URL, and my home IP at the bottom
I sent two bug reports last autumn -- you must not a got 'em
There probably was a problem with hotmail or somethin
Sometimes the packets take the scenic route when you route them
but anyhoo, fsck it, what's been up? Man, how's Ballmer?
Is he still a dancin' foo, screamin' "developer?"
If I have a daughter, guess what I'ma call her --
I'ma name her Clippy.
I read about your XP SP2, I'm sorry.
I had a friend bork his box over some bitchy driver problem
I know you probably hear this everyday but I'm your biggest fan.
I even got Software Assurance that the zealots called a scam.
I got a room will all your certificates and manuals, man.
I like the stuff you did with Java, too, that stuff was phat!
Anyways, I hope you get this, man. Hit me back
just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan
This is Dan.
Dear Bill, you still ain't ack-ed my note. I hope you have a chance.
I ain't mad -- I just think it's fscked up when the shizznit hit the fan.
If you didn't want to fix the bugs through Trustworthy Computing
you didn't have to, but you coulda posted a work-around for Matthew
That's my kid bro, man, he's only eight years old
Been a good boy, rebooted as he was told by you
for years and you just said "No."
That's pretty crappy, man, his drive was going idle.
He wanted to be just like you, man! Now he gets more porn than I do!
I ain't that mad, though, I just don't like bein lied to.
Remember when we met in Vegas? I said that I'd write you
And that I've always gots your back. See, man, patching is ok, in a way.
I wouldn't have bothered either
But my mom's machine got hosed and she's not a control-alt-deleter.
I can't relate when people say you're doing wrong
So when I have a crappy day, I flame away and bring it on
'cause I don't really know shit else and get confused on what to press
I even got wit blizzard and got Warcraft Battlechest
Sometimes I get a troll to axe a seal to watch it bleed
It's like adrenaline, that is until the game locks up on me.
And when you rolled right over Real, man, I respect you cause you did it.
The linux folks are jealous -- their uptime is 24/7
but they don't know you like I do, Bill, no one does
they don't know what it's like for systems like ours booting up
You gotta write me, man. I'll be the biggest fan you'll ever lose.
Sincerely yours, Dan -- P.S.
I'm glad you beat up OS/2
Dear Mister-I'm-Too-Good-To-Fix-Or-Patch-My-Bugs,
this 'll be the last e-mail I ever send your ass
It's been so long and Word's still bork -- I don't deserve it?
I gotta upgrade to write letters?
I almost switched down to Wordperfect!
So this is my ogg file I'm sending you, I hope you hear it.
I'm running firefox on the information superhighway
Hey Bill, I clicked on Bonzi Buddy, will it install in my drive?
You know that song by Shawn Colvin, it's called "Sunny Came Home"
about that girl who came home with a box of tools and said that
it's time for a few small repairs -- she came home with a vengeance?
That's kinda how it is, I was one "rescue disk" from switching
Now it's too late -- I'm with a million penguins now and happy
and all I wanted was a lousy ack or a call
I hope you know I trashed ALL of your cd's from my drawer.
I loved XP and IE together, think about it --
It's ruined somehow, I hope you can'
Is MPEG 4 an open standard? Are there any open standards (Dirac maybe?) that are at an advanced enough stage of development to be used as an alternative?
A company the size of MS that cannot write a decent test suite. Incompetence or the need to keep the proposed standard as obscure as possible to stifle competition... or both?
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
What disturbs me is that a 'standards body' would've considered a completely closed, proprietary codec anyway. Patent-encumbered is one thing. Black-box is another. What were they thinking?
Windows Media Player would obviously play MPEG-4, but other platforms would not always have WMV9. MPEG-4 would be more ubiquitous, regardless of the "follow the winner" attitude people have about Microsoft. Microsoft really needs to be given the boot once and a while, and this is a good opportunity to do so.
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
It all looks very promising, the amazing technology advancement is exciting, the quality will be truly outstanding, the article is very interesting, however the real question is: will we be able to watch our favourite movies legally using our favourite, free software in the future? Will we labeled "pirates" only becuase our otherwise legal technology is inconvenient for media conglomerates and proprietary software barons?
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
As a beast, I find your characterization of all beasts as a bad thing flamebait. Jesus, why do the editors let obvious flamebait and immature name calling in the comments?
Microsoft used shark-style tactics using his monopolistic power to get what it wanted and crush opposition... film at 11. Is this even news?
And if you RTFA, you'll see that "On the assumption that WMV9 was destined to become an industry standard, Microsoft convinced both the Blu-ray Disc Association and the DVD Forum to include it as a mandatory video compression format (along with MPEG-2 and H.264/MPEG-4 AVC) for next-generation high-definition DVD formats. Now, there is speculation that delays or licensing problems for VC-1 could prompt either -- or both -- of the DVD industry groups to simply delete the Microsoft technology from their specifications."
So it's not like WMV9 was the only codec incorporated in the standard anyway. Microsoft overpromised it seems, at least on the feature set. But cheated and lied?
Eureka Science News - automatically updated
Ballmer and co just don't seem to *get* media, in my opinion.
Now I'd like a fair deal for musicians and consumers, and right now iTunes is the market leader. Why? I think Apple seems to "get it" a lot more than other companies do.
From what I've seen of Windows Media and DRM, it's not clever, and worse yet, it's clumsy.
Does Microsoft have to own everything? Why don't they just play nice for once and use something vaguely standard, like MPEG 4 and AAC, or FLAC.
Theora promises to be really nice, but until then can anyone point me in the direction of a decent, free software, video codec (ideally with some nice Creative Commons tie in and even better, something I can give to my Mac using video encoders)
Join the Free Software Foundation
In short, industry players that have embraced VC-1 fear they may have to go back to Microsoft and pony up fees for a WMVx license in the future.
Thank god someone finally recognized MS's licensing scheme for what it is: highway robbery. Basing a standard on it is a sure way to strangle an industry.
We were going to do a streaming media demo over a wireless data link. They said it would be no problem. (Codec choice was out of my hands, but I had to write the client) I wanted to know how we were going to get data from our custom wireless data decoder into Windows Media Player. Their answer? Wireless client -> Windows Media Codec -> Windows Media Server -> Windows Media Player. All on seperate computers, all running Server 2000. Our final solution? Wireless client -> File. Open file in Media Player. Same computer. Done. From my perspective marketing drives Windows Media, not good technology.
What does Transatlantic have to do with DVDs?
The first and only time I ever downloaded anything in these formats, I was redirected to some M$ site upon opening the file, stating that no more than 10 people could use it (!) I was like WTF! Ever since then, I will never EVER use WMVs or WMAs. No thanks, I'll stick with less obscure formats that don't try to put in copy-protection crap.
Honestly, does every article have to be a troll ?
In Soviet America the banks rob you!
If WM9 can't even compete with MPEG4 LC, which is relatively established now, it will get eaten alive by AVC/H.264, not that MPEG-LA help themselves by encumbering a promising technology with patent and royalty complexities, by the time they get a satisfactory resolution they hand people like MS time to bribe and cajole a less worthy codec onto hapless consumers, and eventually studios of course.
MS is like my dog, who I've nick-named monopoly, he was promisng to start with then he jumps up to bite me in the ass given any excuse. He eats all the food out there and demands more resources, not to mention his lack of standards cause bad conflictions with other four legged beasts (such as the beast).
Apparently, a highly technical standard body is harder to snowjob than the usual clueless consumers.
Or politicians.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Apple asks: "How can we make the best product possible for the customer and still make money at it?"
Microsoft asks: "How can we use this to reinforce our monopoly and still get end-users to swallow it?"
All Microsoft's DRM and Codec schemes have seemed to design to "embrace and extend" to further their Windows monopoly. Apple's have been designed to be the best they possibly can, with just enough DRM to satisfy their media partners. It's a big difference, and it shows up in everything they do.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
TV, movies and music make up a large part of our culture and here we have a corporation trying to railroad a standards commitee into accepting their product as the standard we will use preserve the sounds and images of our generation. That sounds pretty dorky, but it's true.
This makes with the BBC and Vorbis guys are doing seem a lot more important.
never watched gi joe, then?
(no, i can't believe that gave the name snowjob to a kids' toy)
-mkb
Come on. Is it really necessary to interject this crap with every article on Microsoft?
There's a reason my entire movie library (ripped from owned DVD's which are stored away -- just like my CD collection now :) ... has the .MP4 extension at this time. There's also a reason that the entire library resides on Linux partitions and was created using a Mac. Microsoft has enough money. They get $0 now.
After this little incident MS needs a new slogan.... Oh, say.... "Your potential inspires us to bulls#@! the population."
Requiem
Apparently, a highly technical standard body is harder to snowjob than the usual clueless consumers.
For the moment. The bar for what is considered "highly technical" is lowered all the time. Consider the following:
1) I've met people with Master's Degrees in CompSci who are clueless about coding. Maybe this "has been the case for a while", but surely it hasn't consistently been the case since the birth of CS as a discipline?
2) 20 years ago, I would have been a mediocre Unix SA... today, I'm practically deified by 90% of so-called SAs.
There will always be a few amazing brainiac engineer-types, and a few hard-theory CS geniuses (a la Knuth), and a few master hackers who can code x86, PPC, SPARC, and z80 assembly in their sleep... but their percentages among society will get smaller and smaller. Within 50 years, expect (e.g.) the IEEE, or the ACM, or whatever, to have devolved into organizations no more technical or consumer-minded than the RIAA or MPAA...
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Last month I saw WMV9 covered in the only 2 microsoft booths at the IBC conference(amsterdam).
Microsoft really made me believe that wmv9 was mature enough to be an industry standard.
Was I assimilated by microsoft or is wmv9 not that bad at all?
This just shows how little you actually know about this subject. VC-1 is a compression standard only. It does not include DRM features, or any user-interaction features for that matter. This is very clear if you have been following this standardization process at all.
Oh, and by the way, what Apple codecs are you referring to that have been designed to be so superior to WMV9? Please tell. (And don't say "Quicktime" because that is a format, not a codec.)
not only is it a good thing it's a feature!
With regards to (1), that's not really surprising. Computer science isn't really about coding at all, it's about computational science. You can be a great computer scientist while being a mediocre programmer.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Where they trying to pull a fast one like they did on IBM in a time long long ago?
The only problem is that the degree an aspiring sysadmin or coder is "expected" to get is a degree in CompSci.
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Please - at least nod towards impartiality in the articles!
You apparently don't know how to take a joke. Here's a hint: You laugh.
I didn't RTFA but, if I remember correctly, the OP has some major misinformation in his post.
It was my impression that WMV9 was approved by the HD DVD groups to be supported in ADDITION to the MPEG4 codec. It didn't REPLACE the MPEG4 codec.
Misinformation on Slashdot -- who'd-a-thought?
Didn't Terminator 3 come with a special Windows Media 9 High Def version or did it just fall out of the sky and into my hands? Didn't MS demonstrate the HD capabilities by hosting WM9 high def video somewhere on their site?
-]Phreak Out[-
I'm offended by the term "snowjobbed."
Could this just have been the old disconnect between the people who sell your software and the people that write the software? Maybe the MS representatives had not talked to their engineers, or had misunderstood them, and basically sold vaporware. Given a little bit of time, the engineers could implement the missing features (maybe, depends if the whole underlying ideas were inferior).
I gurantee you that MPEG4 as XVID/DIVX (more XVID than DIVX) is an industry standard in the P2P World.
Look at this link to see the performance differences between some codecs. I hope it is just the quicktime implimentation of mpeg4 that is crappy. What about Divx?
MPEG 4 was based in part on some of Apple's "native Quicktime" codecs/formats IIRC.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
The disc makers can choose to use anyone they want, but the PLAYERS have to support all of them to be compliant with the standard. Which is $$$ to MS, even if no one chooses to use WMV 9 on their discs, it makes the format easier for MS to sell.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
In my master's program, I am finding that most students couldn't code thier way out of a wet paper bag.
Actually, "pirate" is not the correct term indeed, but because piracy is not being commited. A pirate is someone who robs or plunders at sea without a commission from a recognized sovereign nation, not someone who violate the copyright law. Acts of the former are called piracy. Acts of the latter are called copyright infringement.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
For some reason, this reminds me of a misguided group, or perhaps hoax, called Team Bill Gates. There were photos on their site of guys in polo shirts with the Team BIll Gates logo and some blurbage about how they were trying to get the message out about one of the great visionaries of our time (not sure who), who had inadvertently gotten a lot of bad press because people don't (or was it do?) understand much about computers.
After the initial flurry of articles asking whether it was a joke or delusion, they dropped off my radar. What happened to them? Have they mandated any ass-raping standards on behalf of Micro$oft lately?
I agree. Our school (and probably a lot of others) is thing of splitting the CS department and creating a software engineering major. Something like that would remedy the situation.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
You forgot the next line, which for me was the highlight of the article.
MPEG's Koenen dismissed such a possibility. "Microsoft knows better than that," he said.
You know what? I actually like Microsoft, but that quote even made me laugh out loud!
Well if the nerdy geniuses would repoduce more than the average person, instead of less, things would be different.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
...industry players that have embraced VC-1 fear they may have to go back to Microsoft and pony up fees for a WMVx license in the future. MPEG's Koenen dismissed such a possibility. "Microsoft knows better than that," he said.
They just never learn, do they?
Apparently, a highly technical standard body is harder to snowjob than the usual clueless consumers.
Damn!
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
"More specifically it's a codec which implements certain parts (up to and including the AS 'Advanced Simple' profile) of the ISO MPEG-4 specification."
More accurately: "implements certain parts *ON PLAYBACK* of the MPEG-4 Specification". XviD encoded material does not play nicely with ISO standard MPEG-4 codecs; the same is true for DivX and 3ivx. These codecs are based on MPEG-4, and will play back MPEG-4, but do not create true MPEG-4 files when encoding.
Or more likely there are a lot more computer-related jobs now than there were 20 years ago.
And, not suprisingly, a lot more of those jobs don't require the same level of technical competence.
A world that produces nothing has no "industry".
"Redmond beast"
"cheated and lied"
"usual clueless customers"
How did Microsoft cheat and lie about anything? It claimed its codec was the best? Surprise, a company thinks its products are the best. Slashdot thinks Linux is the best. Does that mean it "cheated and lied" if it turns out Windows does something better? Come on.
Pointless and out-of-date article. That is looking at MPEG-4, not HD MPEG-4.
H.264/AVC is in a completely different league to the MPEG-4 LC currently in QuickTime 6.5.
QuickTime 6.6 (or 7 as it may be renamed on release) is f-ing amazing with H.264/AVC in similar bandwidths.
Funniest. Celebrity. Parody. Ever.
This is great news. Multimedia DRM is Microsoft's last chance to destroy Linux and oss by locking he world into some new proprietary standard. Compression encoding is a crucial part of the plan, and now it is being rejected.
Where I come from a "snowjob" is to stuff a fist full of snow down the back of someone's coat. I've never heard it in this context or a sexual context.
"Snowballing" someone, on the other hand, is sexual. At least, according to the movie "clerks".
It'd be nice if they gave Theora a shot. It looks like a lot of work has to go into preparing Microsoft's codec -- why not work on one that has no licensing problems at all, if you have to do that? The code is available now, which is more than you can say for this alternative.
- David A. Wheeler (see my Secure Programming HOWTO)
Sitting next to a billionaire feels really really cool
gewg_
Also, note how the WM people's solution involved multiple sales of Server2K. Interesting, eh??
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Most likely it's a fucked up schedule again. They come up with features, in the middle of the product cycle it becomes clear that all of them can't be implemented, they start cutting features. They cut about 1/4 of them, then 3/4 through the product cycle 1/4 more. And in the very end of it all, marketing comes up with an awesome idea to push this thing through a standards body. VPs are ecstatic, engineers swear and cringe, everyone hopes standards committee won't notice missing shit. Standards committee notices, shit hits the fan, engineers get lower performance ratings in their yearly reviews, VPs get fat bonuses and stock grants. Everything continues unchanged.
You're *that* flexible?
So would software players be fully compliant if it included all the codecs? I guess it would be frustrating if you have a player that included only MPEG4 and cannot play a disc that is encoded in WMV9. Why not use just one codec as the standard and avoid potential confusion?
You are assuming that genetics makes all the difference, which is not only unproven, there's evidence to the contrary.
My parents lacked even basic technical knowledge, and have low-brow jobs were they are essentially human pack-mules. They are, however, above average intelligence. Each of their parents, however, were very low on the evolutionary chain, and barely able to figure out complex math.
Perhaps most importantly, neither side of my family has any members that look the slightest bit geeky. I'm decended from athletes, mainly. Several generations of football players, in fact.
No doubt genetics plays some part in your aptitudes, but very little, IMHO.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
"In short, industry players that have embraced VC-1 fear they may have to go back to Microsoft and pony up fees for a WMVx license in the future. MPEG's Koenen dismissed such a possibility. "Microsoft knows better than that," he said." WTF is he smokin'?
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
'Nuf said..
apparently a genius parent is more likely to have dumb kids. Plus, the parent becomes 'less productive' in his field when tied to a family. Maybe it's for the better that they don't breed like the average Joe?
sounds like an eminem takeoff, i don't know who it is. put a beat on it and rock our world.
insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
That is a very good point and that is precisely what makes me so concered. We haven't seen any patent attacks on Linux and free software yet, but as soon as Microsoft starts losing enough customers and money to Linux, we will see them.
After all, they are not fools investing literally millions in their "defensive" patent porfolios. Just look at IBM. They only use their patents "defensively." But what does it mean? When SCO sued them, they instantly countersued with tens of patents. SCO being wrong suing IBM in the first place is irrelevant. They could do the same thing against almost anyone because everyone violates some of the bogus and obvious patents thay have. The point is that they have the power to do so. So does Microsoft. They have the power to attack if they need it. And that's very dangerous.
And I am only talking about bogus patents right now, which in the case of Linux might cost anyone too much bad publicity or make the patents invalidated with the help of EFF, FSF or OSI, and only hurt the attacker in the long run. The very specific patents for modern audio and video codecs, and violating them to do exactly what they were designed for, is a completely different matter. They most probably wouldn't get invalidated in court. They will be a powerful weapon even for getting good publicity--"Linux was working only because those pirates stole our patented algorithms, without them it can't even play a movie, you should use Windows."
You're right, we don't have today what I fear we won't have in the future. It is not possible to legally play an original, purchased DVD on Linux. Would you believe that I still don't have a DVD drive because of that?
This is something which we have to address before it starts to be a problem. Because using patented algorithms in free software only makes the software vulnerable to legal attacks, and this is the only kind of attack that can be directed against free software. Most of people don't care about them because we haven't seen any attacks yet. Yet.
By the way, thanks for posting a very good comment in the Free Software Friendly Graphics Card discussion. When I was criticising the lack of support for that project and the lack of understanding why is it so important, I hadn't read you post, because I gave up after reading the top half of +5 comments which was basically saying "bad idea" which I quite honestly couldn't understand.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
The theft is the second case comes from the fact that usualy the infringer claims copyright even though he does not had it. The thing stolen is the copyright itself, so to say.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
yeah well i guess so }:)
go ahead, mod me as troll
_ In Egypt Networks: Network Solutions with a Twist
They're not going to remove MPEG2. Consumers expect HD DVD players to play existing DVD titles that use MPEG2; consumers in some territories want SVCD as well.
"Snowballing" someone, on the other hand, is sexual.
True, but it typically happens after a blowjob.
At least, according to the movie "clerks".
Now why would the Disney company allow that into one of its films?
Moderators: How the hell is tripe like this +1 Insightful?
Well, I should hope you've learned something in 20 years!
Am I the only one who read the headline too quickly and envisioned the next generation of mail servers having native support for embedded video in some proprietary Microsoft format?
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.