Slashdot Mirror
Open Source Geeks Considered Modern Heroes
loconet writes "The BBC reports that a report by Demos says that the all-consuming passions of geeks and nerds may actually be beneficial for society. The UK think tank's report published today, underlines the importance of 'Pro-Ams' -- amateurs who pursue a hobby or pastime, in many cases an all-consuming passion, to a professional standard. The report says Pro-Am astronomers have made 'significant contributions' to the knowledge of the universe, while Pro-Am computer programmers are providing the only serious challenge to Microsoft's dominance of personal computing."
this doesn't mean chicks will sleep with geeks now or anything.
Where's my damn cape then?
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
Geeks are good. Let's pat ourselves on the back.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
This has been true forever.
At the top, are the professionals (and the large companies, governments, and institutions to support them)
At the bottom are those who have an interest but no means to carry out their interest due to high barriers of entry.
That leaves room in the middle for us, the pro-ams. Most of us won't find the "next best thing", but a FEW of us will. That's pretty cool.
Yup, I've known a few.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
this clearly falls under the 'funny' topic.
but didn't we already know this? Open source geeks have been my heroes for years, and now that I am one I know that I feel better about my open source contributions than I do about a lot of other things I do! (I'm not exactly my own hero, but I am way cooler than all those "maybe I can start my own company with this cool office suite I'm programming for DOS!" losers)
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77 77 77 2e 6d 65 6c 76 69 6e 73 2e 63 6f 6d
Heroes are people who save lives. Firefighters and policemen are heroes -- they brave danger on a daily basis to save lives. So too was Jonas Salk; if he developed a program to add tags to MP3 files instead of discovering penicillin and refining it for medical use, this would have been a disappointment.
This isn't intended to disparage the work of open source geeks in any way. They're just in a different class (improving our lives in front of a LCD monitor instead of saving them from a burning building.)
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
One Pro-am "intelligence" agent.
p.s. It wasn't "Bin laden"
It's too bad they/we cant get laid more often.
Organization whose aim is "to create an open resource of knowledge" applauds open-source programmers! News at 11!
(rolls eyes)
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
Open source creatores (me) must be compared to volunteers and philanthrops.
The volunteer that help the senior to cross the street, the meals on wheels volunteers, the philanthrop that give money to cancer research, you name it.
And we should have the same respect.
I have one Mod point left and I want to use it before the end of the day when it expires. How can I mod this whole article as Troll?
Come on folks. Only on select sites such as this one are people like those mentioned in the article considered heroes. Joe Average, as a rule, doesn't even know what Open Source is let alone that it exists.
Maybe, possibly, though unlikely, some time in the future those who have contributed might be recognized for their efforts (such as Linus) in hindsight but I'm not holding my breath.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
INVINCIBLE!
Note that the article from Demos indicates that professional amateurs are not new - this is just reversing a trend that started last century when professionals made most of the contributions.
I'd say that the only "new" thing about professional amateurs is that the Internet allows them to publicise their work earlier, allowing us to take advantage of genius before the person dies.
Whether this marginalizes them by forcing them down the conventional paths by responding to feedback from their peers, where previously an amateur would have less feedback and explore the non-utilitarian aspects of an idea, or allows the amateur to expand their idea by meeting more of their ilk, is up for grabs.
Any ideas?
You MUST check out that BBC picture before making final judgement.
The terms "amateur" and "professional" are in no way synonymous with "expertise," and the phrase "professional standard," if it has any real meaning at all, has meaning only within the realm of a particular workplace, not the lab/workshop.
KFG
amateurs and people who code for corporations Pros?
don't people do both? i know i do, so does that mean only projects where money involved are "professional" and OSS is "amateurs"?
that is just assinine
bullshit!!
Although open source programmers have done neat things, one must be careful not to throw around the word 'hero'.
Heroes are people who save lives. Firefighters and policemen are heroes -- they brave danger on a daily basis to save lives. So too was Jonas Salk; if he developed a program to add tags to MP3 files instead of discovering penicillin and refining it for medical use, this would have been a disappointment.
This isn't intended to disparage the work of open source geeks in any way. They're just in a different class (improving our lives in front of a LCD monitor instead of saving them from a burning building.)
Or just a amateurish professional?
Oh, the bad news? You still won't get laid.
Pros eventually reach a level where they spend more and more time managing the system (meetings, writing, planning, and press) than doing whatever they were doing to got them there in the first place. Amateurs have a love and the luxury (total absence of finances or already early retirement) of not having the management role and can focus their efforts more productively.
Slashdot again descends to stroking the egos of the wannabe set.
sigh.
Did you ever know that you're my hero,
And everything I would like to be?
I can fly higher than an eagle,
For you are the wind beneath my wings.
If you're going by something known as the definition.
It might be assinine to split hairs like this, but it's a valuable distinction given the context of the article.
-- i am jack's amusing sig file
See, this doesn't surprise me as news. The article should be taking the complete opposite tack.
For the last 100 years in the US, for example, we've been consumed by consumption. Things have to make money in order to be researched or experimented with and people have to make money to survive. So everyone gets a 9 to 5 job and works their tail off until they go into business for themselves or find some niche that makes them happy that also pays them.
I think the problem is that the over all amount of science and pure research has shrunk in recent years because so many people are concerned about two things:
1) What they think is important rather than what's best for science in general.
2) Money.
I.E. "why should my taxes fund that research? Huh? it might cure disease in 20 years? I don't get it, it must be stupid since I don't understand how that could possibly happen. Now pardon me while I go manage my snack food and oil stock portfolio."
And worse, in the US, so many people have less hobby time than they used to because people are working longer hours in the US.
Scientists of old had more significant hobby time than dop typical US citizens. They also were funded more often by local lords who thought it a status symbol to be funding the local science or art geek. Our national endowments for the arts and sciences inthe US have been gutted as of late because the public feels these funds "unnecessary."
Science and Art lead society. Most americans don't get that, because they are scared of change. So we are stuck with the same music as before, the same stupid non-important drugs, and the same people running the government, and less and less real art and science coming out of this country.
Hopefully, the UK will heed the BBC and turn away from the way the US is running itself into the ground.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
I think this is scientific proof that /. open-source triumphalism has officially Jumped The Shark.
C'mon, guys. I hate Microsoft as much as anybody, but get a grip...
A long time ago, extreme was only for activities that had a significant risk of getting killed; now it's a soft drink. Hero's the same way.
Hero is now used for everyone important & significant, even if that significance is just being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
~~~
Click here, you know you wanna!
The experimental archeology field (AKA reenactors) is mainly amateur, but there are some deep, deep experts there.
In general, the amateurs are likely to be more highly skilled than the professionals in any field where there's no income to be earned (duh!).
BugBear
Ignorance is curable. Stupid is forever.
Remember when Kim Polese was considered one of Time's most 25 influential people? WHat happened to Marimba... oh yeah, BMC bought them at a fire sale.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
When you think about all the people in history that made sizeable contributions to society (like Galileo, Mozart, Tesla, etc.), did it not seem to you from our perspective that they were more of hobbyists? I'm not trying to belittle them, I'm just saying that when reading about their life, they seemed quite a bit like most of us. So I imagine there is a lot we could learn from their lives and experiences they had within their society.
I'm sick of all these new American "heros." Soon they're going to start calling politicians heros. If you're getting paid, you're doing your job. If you are unpaid, or untrained and risking your life on a whim, I'll credit you as a hero.
The guy sourced for the article happens to be an OSS geek. Anorak in the hed. Hello, slashdot? Is the BBC reduced to astroturfing?
Top five pro-am activities:
Gardening
DIY
Sports
Arts and Crafts
Photography
And the number one most popular pro-am activity:
Sex.
Go ahead, London.
illegitimii non ingravare
While challenging Microsoft is a very worthy cause. It's just part of the battle(an important one) against intellectual property(slavery). Thanks to you, I am writing this on a nice Slackware distro(10.0) that works flawlessly(well, almost, but I consider the flaws a personal challenge for me to overcome as opposed to an annoyance, and you will never, ever hear me complain about it. It helps me to understand how and why things work.) Please stand with those who understand that an expressed idea cannot be owned.
I thought a hero was a type of food.
Dr Spock? You're kidding, right?
Hahahahah that was funny.
:)
Good one.
I love geek jokes.
How is this truth a troll post?
You want to be a hero? Go into a profession that saves lives.
I'm not a hero for any of the computer stuff I do.... even when I save Betsy in Accounting's spreadsheet that she's been working on for a week. And neither are you.
If you want to see a hero, go do a ride-along with a cop or a firefighter. Go serve in the military and learn what it really means to have others depend on you, on your competence.
Er, the UK invented the stagnant society you describe. Why would they change now?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I do think paying 'pro-ams' money would be disastrous. Govt money seems to be a sirens song for hucksters, slackers and corrupt businesses.
One of the reasons I think people like working on opensource software is because they work with people that love what they do and want to do it the right way and be proud of it. You start mixing govt money into this equation, then every tom, dick and harry will be claiming they are pro-ams because they have contributed a bunch of half-a$$ed source to a project. This in my opinion would destroy the quality and 'pure' ideology of open source/free software. Keep OSDL, keep paypal or other donations to a project (firefox is a good example), but keep govt funds out.
A friend of mine even pushes it farther, saying that there is no such thing as Computer Engineering (he's a structural engineer) as for him, engineering consists of specific points of scientifically derived knowledge that is arranged to come to computable ends, likea bridge, or a house. He looks at the buggy spaghetti code spewed out in a caffeine driven programming session as something more in common with literature than engineering.
I don't agree with him - I think programming is engineering by way of the intent of the actor (engineer vs. artist) and the results of their actions (art vs. a program). But I do think there are significant degrees of overlap between them, and the boundary isn't clear cut. Also, I think that socially these two groups (OSS programmers and Artists) share a number of interests - getting a job done Really Well, doing something from a sense of inner necessity (I *must* do this - it's *important* to me, and the WORLD...), and a sense of craftsmanship in innovation that I believe is common in both worlds.
Also, there is often a good sense of mentorship - "You want to help? Cool: do Something." The crits can be harsh (when I was in Art School, some of the crits were so brutal people left crying. Of course, when you do a 6 foot portrait of Dan Fogelberg from his Nederland album cover, you're kind of asking to get slapped 'up side the head...) but the crits are necessary to refine the Work, and the results can be good.
Now, there is a lot of Art that is self involved amateurish brain drool, or is simply in service of some kind of a con game - but there is a lot of code out there that is also pretty bad, and some of that code is funded a lot better than the art, and the use of code to rip people off runs the gamut from phishing expeditions to Web based companies FedExing kitty litter and stealing their existence from VCs and investors.
So, I think the ProAm OSS programmers should look to each other much as artists would, and if they can develop software that makes the world a better place (as artists service the sublime), and help make OSS the proper paradigm for software development (much as artists draw awareness into places not previously seen in such a light), then I believe they have done well.
Also, if they start hanging out with Art Geeks, they might get laid more often. Or at least once. Or maybe go to some funky parties...
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Alan Cox has a Bachelor of Science Degree in Applied Mathematics, and a "real job", and yet he's a "Pro-Am"?
I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in Computer Science and Engineering from the University of Texas and a "real job", and I'm a Pro-Am when I contribute to open source projects?
I feel insulted by this article, and I strongly disagree with the point that it makes. While it is true that there are Amateur OSS contributors, when you look at the major players (note: I'm not claiming to be a major player.) they all have advanced degrees in Computer Science, Math, or another Engineering method. These are some exceptionally bright people, and to dismiss them as "Professional Amateurs" does them a pretty great disservice. Just because an OSS contributer is not getting paid does NOT make them an amateur anymore then a laywer doing pro-bono work is an amateur.
Isn't this simply a corollary of "do what you love, and the rest will follow"?
And Pro-Am programmers also produce the rest of the stuff on the web that's not porn....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
Calling them "Pro-Ams" - amateurs who pursue a hobby to a professional standard - it suggests such people should receive government funding to "promote community cohesion".
Fishing for the details in the report..
In sum our main policy proposals for promoting Pro-Am participation include the ideas listed below.
It looks like they are trying to recognise and reward volunteers at the community level. Interesting -- I especially like the part about giving out unused bandwidth. (grin)
The future belongs to those who own the Net. The Net belongs to a culture; it always has, and always will. The culture is bigger than goverments, stronger than armies, and yet listens to the tiniest whisper of knowledge, wisdom, or freedom.
The future belongs to us. We will choose as our heroes those who inform us, inspire us, and remind us of our best selves. They struggle against the forces who would keep us ignorant, cowed, and small.
It is not only the well-known who will be our heroes. A hero struggles against some enemy faced by his fellow man and overcomes it. She scares the lion with a burning stick, he sits on an exploding bucket and rides it into space, stands in front of a tyrant's advancing tank, and writes cool software because "it pleases the Author of his story".
It's not necessary to rank a hero's deeds alongside those of other heroes. Clearly it cheapens them all to try to compare them. We acknowledge and admire their greatness, sacrifice, courage, and inspiration; that is enough.
sigs, as if you care.
What I personally think would be optimal is a both some major prizes for achievement of significant milestones(i.e. creation of the viable first fusion reactor or a cure for AIDS) and a series of smaller prizes that would involve smaller lifetime payments(work out a set of criteria that would be used to award small lifetime stipends to researchers/inventors on the order of maybe twice what social security pays so these folks don't have to mess with the mundane realities of just scraping by--and have thousands of these awarded every year so that a big chunk of Pro-Ams can expect to get one once they've showng themselves to be serious contributors). Frankly, if the government wants to be anything but a deadbeat, they ought to start giving out these prizes because a lot of agencies could barely run without free software!
What does subsequent public recognition have to do with the merit of an action?
Cops and fire fighters get paid to do a job. If they go above and beond they may becom a hero, but just joining the force dosen't do it.
I consider myself a liberal in the historical sense that I think people deserve, and function more effectively, under nearly total freedom. I'm much less enthusiastic about the meaning it has taken on of late:
Liberal (adj.) slang A person or policy that is generous, particularly with other people's money.
-Peter
Anyone who strives
to be truely themselves
and contribute good
to a world
that never stops trying
to get them to be someone else
is a hero
or at least
a true human.
I think open-source geeks more than qualify.
Old News... Puh-leaze! I've considered myself a modern hero ever since the first time I slayed a mighty deamon in UO.
Contributing to "Judgement Day" one line of
perl -e 'foreach(values %SIG){$_="IGNORE";}while(){}'
I thought Penicillin was discovered by Alexander Fleming.
Jonas Salk invented the polio vaccine
I don't have a sig.
First off, I should point out that I'm the guy who was interviewed by Demos for the report, and also the same Seb Potter that the nice people at the BBC interviewed for their piece. Please excuse any rambling in the article, I was interviewed very early in the morning, before coffee, on the day after the wedding of two close friends, and my brain was most definitely not fully engaged.
The first thing that I notice on here is a lot of detracting comments from people who haven't read the full report, but are just going on the headline. I'm not particularly surprised, as, of the several members of the press that interviewed me, only the BBC actually wanted to try to present the story in a positive light. Others just wanted to regurgitate the press release and get some nerdy quotes about not having a social life, for which I was happy to disappoint. No member of the press that I spoke to had actually read the port as far as I could tell.
Strangely, nobody wanted to publish my photo, because I don't look at all like the stereotypical image of a trainspotting nerd. I feel sorry for the other 5 people who were put forward by Demo as being examples of what Demos calls the "Pro/Amateur" economy, as the press ignored them completely.
So guys, remember that when you're pressing that submit button, you might be coming off as no more intelligent than a tabloid journalist.
I'm pretty encouraged by the report and what Demos are doing with it. For those who don't know the background, Demos is a think-tank organisation that provides policy advice to the british government. In this case, their advice has been obscured behind a knee-jerk press reaction, a reaction that I especially wouldn't have expected from the audience that the report praises.
You might need to know who I am, that I have the nerve to represent the community in this way. Well, I'm a 27 year old programmer from England. I've held a series of successively senior roles in several companies over the last 8 year, that has led to my current position as the Technical Director a company called Getfrank (http://www.getfrank.com/. Along the way I helped get Battle.Net started in Europe when I worked for Sierra/Vivendi running their online presence back in the 90s.
6 years ago, almost to the week, I was one of a handful of people that started an online community called evolt (http://evolt.org/). Actually, the wedding I was at this weekend was for 2 of the most prominent members of that community. I'm about to dump most of my time over the next couple of weeks to work on a complete rebuild of the technical architecture behind the community.
About 2 years ago I started working with the Plone project http://plone.org/, and became a core developer through working myself silly helping to get the 2.0 release out of the door. I don't get to contribute to the community as much as I would like at the moment, but that's mainly because everyone there is pretty damned good at what they do.
I have a steady girlfriend, but then, so do nearly all of my geeky friends, except the married ones. I have a social life that can best be characterised as amplified. I code about 50 hours a week at work for clients (on OSS projects), and about 30 hours a week for fun (on whatever the hell I like, but mostly little Torque Engine-based games for fun).
The point about the Pro/Amateur thing isn't people making a living out of their hobbies, it's mostly about motivation, and the availability of expertise and knowledge outside of the traditional bounds of "professions". In fact, it's one of the first indicators that many sections of the economy are noticing a move back away from the protestant work ethic, and back towards concepts of social responsibility and pride in self-directed achievement.
It's all small steps, and getting a report like this published and noticed in the press is just the first tiny step towards change, but it's definitely going to be an interesting journey.
Things have to make money in order to be researched or experimented with and people have to make money to survive. So everyone gets a 9 to 5 job and works their tail off until they go into business for themselves or find some niche that makes them happy that also pays them.
Hmm, spending the bulk of your time working on the best possible way to get what you want seems very practical to me.
I.E. "why should my taxes fund that research?
If I have to give up 15% of my paycheck on research they may or may not be usefull, I would prefer that it go toward whatever is likly to give me the biggest bang per buck.
(At one point 15% of the US budget was going toward space reseach, to keep up Russia had 50% of its budjet), 15% gave us a lot of cool techology, and a massive debt. Russia got a ruined economy.
Is a massive national debt really worth having some better tech?
And worse, in the US, so many people have less hobby time than they used to because people are working longer hours in the US.
I don't know, those linux hobbist seem to have an awefull lot of free time.
Scientists of old had more significant hobby time than dop typical US citizens. Last I checked, 100 years ago, a 14 hour workday 6 days a week was considered normal. Granted many people still do that, most do not, or don't need to.
"Pro-Am astronomers have made 'significant contributions' to the knowledge of the universe"
/. and elsewhere) that simply wouldn't exist without overly-enthusiastic folks with free time, a passion for what they do, and the desire to share with the world. Some things aren't complicated enough to warrant selling for $20 (the minimum people seem to be able to bring themselves to sell any software for, no matter what it does), but my life is that much easier because someone gave it to the world.
While the hero tag may be a bit overdone, I'd say that Pro-Ams in general make significant contributions to the knowledge *in* the universe. I've used countless freeware utilities and enjoyed a lot of hardware hacks posted (on
Sharing with the world is like community service but better. The world benefits at very little cost to the one who shares. And honestly, I've found more useful information on the web by hobbyists than professionals. Not that I ever post any of my projects to the web, since they never seem innovative or polished enough, but I keep intending to...
I think the problem is that the over all amount of science and pure research has shrunk in recent years...
Your entire "insightful" comment is predicated on this assumption.
Prove it.
www.diyaudio.com
As my monicker implies, I've been doing audio for a while, and some of the people on the aforementioned site are pretty impressive. Some are less so (a problem I suspect exists for most pro-am activities), but the self-selected mean is decent.
And it's not a stretch to see dailykos.com as doing the same thing for politics, minus the six-figure consulting fees (ie, the ever-losing Bob Shrum).
Cheers,
Francois.
It's a serious question, why would you be insulted if you were called pro-am? It wasn't meant to be derogatory, slanderous, or condescending. I think it was used because it's trying to describe _all_ the contributors as a whole -- whether they're professionals in the field or not. What other field can any joe go in and start contributing right away? A mechanic can't walk into the operating room and start surgery -- but a mechanic can definitely start programming for OSS. Let's not get stuck on the word Pro-Am and detract from the main point of the story -- the effort and work behind OSS has been nothing short of amazing, let's keep it up and hopefully other industries and fields take notice (like development of renewable energy).
-- Secret Santa?
Linux at home
Doesn't the hero usually get the girl? Look at Batman, Superman, Spiderman and more recently Mr. Incredible :) they all got women... We must be the sidekick, like Robin. Hell... even Vader got some play (he even had twins) WTH is wrong with the world today?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Dr Spock deals with children. Mr Spock was the Vulcan on the Enterprise in Star Trek. Mr Spock had no doctorate (honorary or otherwise). Which only goes to prove 25th century exams are just as illogical as 21st century ones.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I see... You're one of those too "mature" to admit he's been watching "The Incredibles" (crappy, boring and predictable btw, just in case someone's planning to buy tickets for it).
Look everyone, it's the head of Disney Animation!
The Incredibles is one of the best movies in recent memory - just in case someone was reading and decided to go with your wierd grinchy opinion instead of something like a 96% rating at RottenTomatoes.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Ok YOU aren't a hero for any of the computer stuff you do, but others... you cannot DEFINITIVELY say they aren't being a hero for doing IT work.
I doubt that anyone would argue that being in Law Enforcement or Fire Fighting is not a dangerous job. What I would argue is that any job where your competence and skills are being used in a manner in which if you FAIL, serious possible injury can happen to others, can be a candidate for heroism.
I've done the deed, I've been in the Army, in a combat arms role. My MOS started out as 11B, I finished after I was injured and declared unfit for combat duty. Who are you to tell me (or anyone) which was more important? Heros are defined by the people making the accolades.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
I reported a Mozilla bug once; does that count me "in" the hero circle? Side-kick? Or at least the guy who carried the soap that was used to wash the truck that was sometimes used to deliver toilet supplies to the guy who used to wash the side-kick's cape? We all do our part for the betterment of humanity and beyond!
Table-ized A.I.
Since there is proof that good science can be done by Pro-Am's in astronomy, it seems like it would be a good idea to create programs that helped promising pro-ams with resources for research. Other fields could have a larger base of dedicated Pro-Ams if they fostered the idea more.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This is Dumb Geek Outsourcing (DGO). Companies can minimize development cost by developing the idea, framework and setting the project direction. Then, all the company has to do is outsource to the dumb geeks that work for free and the company can make a handsome profit. I've never seen a dumber bunch of geeks in my life working so hard and not getting paid. I say, exploit the dumb geek working for free just like IBM, Sun, Redhat and others do. It's much better and cheaper than outsourcing to India. Developer cost in USA 80k Developer cost in India 15k Dumb Geek Developer cost 0k -Nazz
Now, the works of Woolfe, Joyce, and hundreds of authors who are mostly forgotten are read primarily by 'experts' in the field or by lit majors, while Tolkien and Lewis are two of the most recognized fiction writers in the world.
The same case could be applied to Rowling, in that she wrote her first novel without consulting the "experts" in fiction writing or children's lit.
Perhaps we'll see the same effect in pop music now that there's Mac OSX, Linux, and all of the FOSS tools that are available, to say nothing of using the Net to promote and sell.
There is not one individual in America making a living writing poetry, not one.
illegitimii non ingravare
The $1.05 makes it a poser troll. Hero cultism is annoying. The idea that risking one's life for a good cause is the sole mark of the hero is laughably simple-minded.
-the author of said troll
I, for one, welcome our Geek Hero Overlords.
It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.
If I have to give up 15% of my paycheck on research they may or may not be usefull, I would prefer that it go toward whatever is likly to give me the biggest bang per buck.
And how would you know what gives you the biggest bang per buck? In the 1500's how would you know necessarily that studies by Galileo would lead to a man landing on the moon? Scientists don't even know what leads to good information. And that's the point. Science is about discovering something you didn't know before. Pure research leads to knowledge and knowledge is always good (though what you might do with that could be good or bad).
(At one point 15% of the US budget was going toward space reseach, to keep up Russia had 50% of its budjet), 15% gave us a lot of cool techology, and a massive debt. Russia got a ruined economy.
Actually I don't think the russian numbers are correct, because that would leave the other 50% to military research. Plus these are percentages. The Soviet Union was a communist nation where all the wealth was concentrated it the oligarchy. They may have had a lot more money in the government than the US. You'll need more figures to back this up.
Plus, you can't blame space research on causing the debt when it is in fact the US itself which spends 50% of its own budget on national defense. Plus much of the space research and military research cross over so that makes the 15% figure questionable as to its true nature.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
In a way you touched on how the Internet most threatens institutions; by leveling the playing-field, it short-circuits the copious ass-kissing and brown-nosing that lots of geniuses fail at when trying to go through the academia.
Freedom of ideas, freedom of communication, these are the enemies of corporate-managed countries.
I'm surprised the Internet has even been able to proliferate and circumvent most educational and class barriers (although there are still lots of people who cannot access the Internet).
Who knows how many people with society-changing innovations have been supressed by the old guard.
I wonder, are the people who invented the Internet (and by doing so enabled research's pace) heros?
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
You're simply an amateur with hubris.
And I'm not the first amateur to have written a respected book in her chosen field.
illegitimii non ingravare
> Is there is a need to have means of rewarding inventors and researchers that include the Pro-Ams
Well, you see, there was a way to do this. It was called money. The way it worked was: you wrote some software, and if anybody wanted to use it, they had to pay you some money to reward you for the great work you did. These days you are supposed to be working for free, or getting funding from benevolent rich people, or making money providing support. What the OSS community has sown, they have reaped. So quit complaining and get back to work!
Which part of I think did you not understand? The I part, meaning I alone, or the think part, where I use some knowledge to form a possible conclusion within my brain?
I admit I don't have solid facts, but there have been articles here on slashdot and in other forums saying the amount of pure research in the US has been shrinking. I would look for the sources but I can't right now. Sorry.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
So why do about half the nobel prizes in science go to american universities? As a european physicist/mathematician I have to say that the world leading institute for a particular field of research is usually from the US.
Really i'm shocked that this groundless rant is modded +5. Even on /.
Discovered penicillin!
From TFA:
Calling them "Pro-Ams" - amateurs who pursue a hobby to a professional standard - it suggests such people should receive government funding to "promote community cohesion".
He who pays the piper calls the tunes. Fsck government funding.
If the government actually wants to support Free software, they could start by dumping a few of those multi-million $CURRENCY_UNIT Microsoft contracts.
Just put it
on different
lines like
this.
Ideally confounding
the correct
rythm.
I'm not a hero for any of the computer stuff I do
No shit sherlock.
Don't go hiring out everyone. Do it strategically. Look at the most important projects. Not another mp3 winamp clone, but really cool, and up-and-coming projects. Then ask all the people who contributed at least 100 lines of code or more which one to hire. That person would have the option of requesting maybe 1-3 more people. And hire them on a short term basis. Like 1 year, or maybe 2. If the project improves more than the previous year, you can add another year to the contract.
Hee hee, coming from someone whose day is ruined because his little nerd post is rated -1, I guess you couldn't take it when your idea isn't allowed to be +5.
hero
n 1: a man distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and
strength; "RAF pilots were the heroes of the Battle of
Britain"
2: the principal character in a play or movie or novel or poem
3: someone who fights for a cause [syn: {champion}, {fighter},
{paladin}]
4: Greek mathematician and inventor who devised a way to
determine the area of a triangle and who described various
mechanical devices (first century) [syn: {Heron}, {Hero of
Alexandria}]
5: (classical mythology) a being of great strength and courage
celebrated for bold exploits; often the offspring of a
mortal and a god
6: (Greek mythology) priestess of Aphrodite who killed herself
when her lover Leander drowned while trying to swim the
Hellespont to see her
7: a large sandwich made of a long crusty roll split lengthwise
and filled with meats and cheese (and tomato and onion and
lettuce and condiments); different names are used in
different sections of the United States [syn: {bomber}, {grinder},
{hero sandwich}, {hoagie}, {hoagy}, {Cuban sandwich}, {Italian
sandwich}, {poor boy}, {sub}, {submarine}, {submarine
sandwich}, {torpedo}, {wedge}, {zep}]
[also: {heroes} (pl)]
How come your definition of hero is reserved only to those who are put in harms way? Or is there something special about courage that requires there be a threat of physical harm?
A professional does something as a profession, or receives payment for some activity. The adjective "professional" can indicate that someone has great skill in a craft or activity, or that something demonstrates such skill. To conduct oneself as a professional (exhibiting "professional behavior") would indicate that the person's actions remain in accordance with specific rules, written or unwritten, pertaining to the standards of a profession.
The opposite of "professional" is "amateur" (disparagingly: "rank amateur"). In many cases someone can perform the exact same craft or task, and the only difference between a professional and an amateur consists in the payment of the one but not the other.
Therefore, if a person is a pro-am, then they must also be the opposite of themselves. Yin-Yang.
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
So you're saying that if someone chooses a life in which they make great sacrifices for the common good, they're not a hero. Only if they make an on the spot decision to make greater than expected sacrifices are they a hero. I disagree completely.
The guy who had only a moment to think about it and did the right thing is a hero, but I would say he is *less* of a hero than someone who made their whole life around doing right for others, then carried through. Of course, if they got exceptional pay or renoun for their career choice I would say that counts against their hero status, but I don't think they do for the most part.
I agree about overuse of words; I just disagree that it applies in that context.
What about Volunteer firefighters who don't do it because it is their job and source of income, but rather because they have a true desire to help the members of their community. About 75% of 1+ million firefighters in the US are volunteers. Since there is no job in this case I would definately consider these individuals heroes.
And how would you know what gives you the biggest bang per buck? In the 1500's how would you know necessarily that studies by Galileo would lead to a man landing on the moon? That is actually my point, I don't know for sure which research will or will not lead to results, but I might have personal favoriates. Why should I be forced to give up a portion of my paycheck to fulfil someone else's idea of research? Giving to a scientific cause, is definitally a good thing, but being forced to is definially a bad thing. When the goverment decides to fund research, it does so by using money they took out of my paycheck to do it, regardless of my opinion. Elections tend to keep reckless spending under some control, but not always. My main concern, is that I've seen so many people who believe we should spend a fortune on reseach, or whatever, and have no clue that they personally have to pay that money in the form of higher taxes.
Madre de dios!
Some examples:
At the bottom of the
Is a massive national debt really worth having some better tech?
That depends, is a massive national debt really worth chasing some guy around multiple countries for killing fewer people than most diseases kill in a year? (Even in years with ample flu vaccine supplies, more Americans die from the flu than were killed by 9/11 plus all the American dead following)
What else are we going to spend the money on?
Who are you to tell me (or anyone) which was more important?
Well, aside from being a former soldier, I'm an American citizen exercising his first amendment right to an opinion.
"I once saved my laptop from a burning building..."
~Idarubicin
Amateurs that pursue a hobby to a professional standard? Does that qualify nymphomaniac escorts? Or coin collecting embezzlers? Either way, I think we need to get in on some of this government funding. You know, to promote community cohesion of technology geeks. We can spend the money on video games and unnecessary case mods and call it pursing a hobby to professional standards. This can help launch the careers of video game connoisseurs who are currently only known for their anonymous forum posts naming Halo 2 the best multi-player game since Joust.
Joking aside, my hobby (computers) became my profession. If more people did the same, I think the world would be a happier place. Much geekier, but equally happier.
In the end, the geek-phobic women would be forced to just deal with the United Countries of Geekdom. For the sake of humanity, geekphobs would be forced to have sex with geeks in order to prevent the extinction of our species.
Embrace your Geek Zen! Unless of course, your hobby is collecting lint or sea monkeys. Then you should just see a Doctor and hope you don't get committed.
So are you a man? So prostate cancer might be your personal favorite. But what about breast cancer? Not so important to you?
And women statistically make less money as a whole than men in the same position.
I'm also not advocating spending "a fortune" on research. I'm also not advocating that politicians decide what gets funded. That's the purpose of the national endowments. Scientists currently decide how much money is given to which projects. Politicians only control the amount of money.
And we don't have to pay higher taxes. How about taking away from the military? Or out of farm subsidies that benefit corporate farms? Also, we were doing just fine before the tax cut a few years ago. Why do we need to keep it?
You should be giving up some of your paycheck because science is also about social welfare and improvements in society. Funding on research leads to things like the internet. Would you have picked funding on computer networking in the 60s if it didn't sound so glitzy?
Picking and chosing isn't an option. Most people won't pick at all, especially all those people who make over $500,000 a year.
Also, are you qualified to know ALL sciences and what sciences are more useful to more people? You might want to fund viagra but some people want to do more research in Leukemia.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
I read this article yesterday I first noticed it on the BBC web site.
The description of 'Professional Amature' for the contributer to an open source project struck me as complete misnomer right away.
As with the very the person they focus on in the article, contributers to open source software are generally PROFESSIONALS not amatures. Most do get paid for their skills in a professional capacity, but they also donate their skills to more charitable efforts.
This is not something you see many people doing - healthcare workers running free clinics, and some lawyers offering free legal advice spring to mind as rare examples of this - but it's not as if accountants, plumbers, electricians or salesmen are known for donating their free time, even to charitable causes. I listened to someone in another cube trying to explain the concept of open source software to a salesman in the office recently, the guy really couldn't grasp why you might want to charitably contribute something to others without some direct and immediate personal monetary benifit, an attitude I encounter all too often.
What particularly annoyed me in this instance is that work for a multinational company in the telecoms and network sector which relies (and contributes) to open source projects too. We simply couldn't run the company without open source software (at least, not if we wanted to stay in business, it simply wouldn't be profitable). For example, we'd have to buy dedicated hardware from the likes of Nortel that costs in the region of 70,000 USD to do what we can also a single 1U high dual CPU Linux server loaded with some additional open source software, which were able to modify to do what we wanted. One HP supplied server with dual CPU's, gigs of RAM and multiple gigabit interfaces only costs in the region of 5,000 USD. Bearing in mind we have to have at least two units for redundancy it would be a 130,000 USD price tag, for one project!
The kicker being, except for very specific tasks - thanks primarily due to it's larger back plane - the Nortel equipment is much more limited and has worse performance in many instances (in our case it could do 1/6th of the work and even then, only in a limited fashion). Simply by purchasing a gigabit switch and adding additional Linux systems you can grow to match the performance and still match it favourably for overal cost. It was fun to write a document for senior management explaing WHY we'd used an open source solution instead of suggesting buying Nortel kit, I really struggled to make the open sourced base solution look bad, because it had so few limitations.
But I digress!
Writing software (even CGI's, shell scripting) pays quite well and unless your daft enough to work for a lousy company, it's pretty easy work IMO. If your doing it in your free time presumably you like doing it too, so of course most people who do it are professionals in the field, and not simply amatures. In fairness, the same is not likely true with astronomy, largely due to the relatively small number of jobs avalible in that field I think, but the article does particularly focus on open source software and I do not belive most contributers to open source software in amatures who work in unreleated fields.
I don't think much effort really went into researching that article TBH, and it reads like it was written on a napkin. Open source remains a poorly covered topic, dispite it's huge and increasing influence both in our everyday lives, thanks to things like (embedded) Linux, and in the commerical sector, as an enabler the development and creation of new tools, products and services that would not otherwise be possible (certainly not at the current growth rate).
Hey, whatever makes us feel better, eh?
There is opportunity to execute heroism in many professions.
The IT personnel at a hospital could be attributed some hero points for quickly responding to the repair of patient health monitoring systems. Without the right technology, doctors cannot save lives. The same goes for computer geeks that make police and fire department communication systems work at proper efficiency.
Those points aside, I agree that the great heroes of our society are those that put their life and well being on the line for the sake of others. Authors on this thread have already mentioned good examples of heroic professions. I ask you not to forget professions that might not be customarily branded with heroism, such as teaching.
sounds good to me. Now explain why/how i'm wrong.
You have two sets of theories, neither of which is proven, that are combined into a superficially insightful takedown of American culture. One one side you have:
Americans are greedy and shortsighted.
Americans have less free time than Galileo had.
Americans don't believe that Art and Science lead society.*
And on the other side, you have:
The overall amount of science and pure research have shrunk since Galileo's time.
The lack of pure research is posited as proof of the the other ills, or conversely, the other listed evils of American culture are an explanation for why science and pure research are in decline. You are unlear in your original comment about which side predicates the other. I'll grant you the luxury of choosing which side you want to prove. The decline in science and pure research seems easier to prove than the other three theories combined, but if you want to prove those instead, go for it. You gotta prove one side or the other, though. You can't be allowed to go off on a general wide-ranging polemic against the US without at least a tiny bit of proof.
A minor point is that your springboard into a general screed against American culture was rather hastily, and poorly, constructed.
(*style points: there's absolutely nothing dishonorable about Industry, and I think it's really Art, Science and Industry that lead society. Regardless, Americans don't scorn the first two.)
The founder of Demos joined Tony Blair's government in 1997 and ran its policy strategy unit until earlier this year. Demos was then and continues to be a highly influential and well-respected think-tank in this country: its views are worth taking seriously. Of course, whether or not the report will persuade the UK government to buy open source software is, sadly, a different matter.
Hear hear. The OSS trumpeteers totally mislabelled this article. If you RTA, it's talking about "Pro-Ams" in general and only mentions the term "open source" once in passing, as a specific characteristic of their case subject.
That kinda irks me (the article mistitle) because it seems to be dismissing all the people & groups that build free software and/or services, which contribute greatly, even if they don't actually "open source" them.
OSS is awesome for a wide variety of collaborative projects, but it isn't the be-all and end-all of generosity.
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
excuse me? Very few people indeed get paid for parenting per se which makes it by definition an "amateur" activity -- you wouldn't (or shouldn't) do it unless you love what you're doing (and love your children). And yet, don't (we hope that) parents take their roles as parents as seriously as any professional activity? Or more? Isn't it rather all-consuming.
Parenting is the consummate and probably first and foremost "pro-am" activity, it has been going on for a very long time. "Pro-am" is nothing new -- women pretty much invented it, and nothing could be more natural. Perhaps this is a more natural way to organise society.
So listen to your mother: she paved the way for the open source geek.
I'm not an expert, but I suspect that it hasn't changed all that much. "Scientists of old" are the people who are remembered because they made such a significant impact on science. Just because we remember them, however, doesn't mean that there weren't scores of potentially capable scientists whose potential was blocked by limitations of society.
Tycho Brahe, for instance, is famous for making the first seriously accurate measurements of several thousand stars. (He had many assistants, of course.) He may have been well above average, or even brilliant. But the main driving force behind him being able to do this was that he had his own sources of money. He came from an aristocratic family, was in renowned standing with the various kings of the day, and was able to pull together his own resources to do what he enjoyed. This later extended into sponsoring further research and more scientists (Keplar is the most famous), but Tycho was one of the few exceptions in this. The social norms for people with money was for them to become educated in managing their money, lands and social situations, and not much more.
This isn't terribly dissimilar to today. Some people have money, most people don't. A few people with money or power do decide to support science, some support other interests, and some prefer to keep their wealth to themselves. If anything, we're better off because we have governments that see science as an important thing to support, at least relative to governments of centuries ago. But although there are tens of thousands of scientists contributing around the world, only a few will be remembered and have their names commonly recognised centuries from now.
We probably do remember a larger proportion of scientists from long ago. But if we do, it's because there weren't as many scientists then as there are now.
The moment you catch a woman you _STOP_ being a geek. :-P
And no, Anime DOESN'T COUNT.
Perhaps you should see the other side of the coin. Bill gates hasn't MURDERED anyone. Does that stop making him a villain?
Microsoft is the main nemesis.
Mortgage payments the kryptonite.
Lack of encouragement the karma.
Outsourcing the doomed fate.
Remember if Supoerman at some point got killed why now this current super heroes.
Just a reminder, super heroes are all martyrs and end in a life of solitude with nobody caring what heppened to them, not even remembering thier accomplishments. Listen or die, is in all super heroes stories.
I've been working on a film with a very talented crew about my personal Open Source heros. The Passion of Dr. Z stars Larry Wall, Eric Raymond, Tim O'Reilly and many more. Would any of you be interested in seeing it?
Movie News - "Entertainment news, bitch!"
Geeks are called "Pro-Am's" because they do not (or did not at a time) charge for their programs.
Take Virtualdub, for example. People use it for video edition, it's good, it's free, and it was done as a HOBBY (incidentally, because the author did it so he could do some stuff on anime - another hobby).
Linus said he just wanted to make "a better Minix than Minix". Sure he has an advanced degree, but he worked on Linux while in school, DOH!
But the important point is: People who write OSS don't have to depend economically on their OSS creations. Some could work for private companies on an anonymous programming job, making a private intranet site, or something.
That's what makes them Pro-Am's. Take a look at sourceforge. It has about 120,000 projects. Think about all the anonymous people who have worked on these projects. What would be of us without them?
Intelligent, honest, trustworthy and celibate :-(
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Next time look at the parent before you moderate, asshole moderator...
Its not a cop-out, its my point. There is no professional market for poetry. There is a market for poetry instruction and that is where the preponderance of working poets earn their keep. A few are scattered in other professions. Wallace Stevens was an insurance executive, as is the current Poet Laureate.
The best periodical venues for published poetry pay a nominal fee per line, enough to cover postage and a celebratory pizza and pitcher. The top-tier of poets (fewer than ten) can move from 3-5 thousand copies of a book. Billy Collins is in a class by himself, moves 10,000 units and makes a living teaching. Any publishing executive will tell you that 10,000 is a minimal break-even point; that is, the best-selling author of literary poetry in America is just able to cover cost. There is no market for bound, trade books of poetry. Houses do it for the odor of literary quality it gives their other lines, or they are university presses operating at a loss.
The best selling volume of lyric verse in history (by an order of magnitude) is by Jewel, a collection of adolescent, navel-picking pseudo-verse. She made money on the book, but it is my understanding that she has another career.
illegitimii non ingravare
Hei,
;). He is not representative of the majority of writers who are part of the accepted canon, in that he is difficult to read and enjoy without loads of prior knowledge. Personally I haven't read Ulysses, only Dubliners. He is often cited as an influence, though how much of that is bluff and how much is real admiration is hard to discern.
Hmmm.... where do I start? Tolkien and Lewis are mediocre, which is why they are read and loved by more readers in the world who have read all of the modernists combined.
Popularity is not related to quality. We probably (as you point out) have a different definition of quality anyway.
You were talking about CS Lewis then and not Lewis Carroll? (If it was Lewis Carroll I would have agreed with you).
A century from now, who will sit through "To the Lighthouse"? Who will sit through "Finnegans Wake", let alone "Ulysses"?
Well, Joyce, as a deliberately obscure and difficult writer, is a bit of a trap in this instance (which is why you chose him
However to take 'To the Lighthouse' as an example, I wouldn't say it requires a lot of cultural codes to get it, on the contrary, it's interesting precisely because it's like an archeological dig through the social/sexual relations of the time (and, ok, because it's well written).
The Silmarillion
I quite liked that (though I found it hard), but I suspect the vast readerships that you're using as a yardstick of quality dwindle to a hardcore of interested fans in this case - does this make it a bad book?
And as for the insult that I would rank Rowling highly
Not intended as an insult; I was talking about the reasons for her current high profile. I don't believe that profile is based on the quality of the books compared to other fiction (and specifically childrens') out there.
Hei hei (Have to love a language like that).
What do they mean "MAY actually be beneficial"? They act as if there was some doubt about it. If Microsoft ends up controlling the World's computers then Hell will look like a viable option.
--- "Yes. Ramming this broomstick up your ass is part of the interview process. We are looking for people who won't say no to anything. This one test works remarkable well at weeding out the undesirables."
"Meaningless!, Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless!"
while Pro-Am computer programmers are providing the only serious challenge to Microsoft's dominance of personal computing."
I'm sure the employees of Apple, Inc. will be so pleased to hear that they have now been officially discounted as "not serious". Bah.
Sometimes we geeks need to pat ourselves on the back and remind ourselves of the outstanding contributions we are making to society. However, now is not the time!
Friends, Slashdotters, the geek's image remains tarnished in the eyes of the neophyte. Our job is not yet complete; we have yet to see the fruits of our labor, that bountiful feast. Lest we forget the pain we suffered, those names the less intelligent called us, we shall work diligently to show the world that geekdom truly makes the world go 'round. Even today, they sling arrows at us, calling us such things as loner, loser, weirdo, and moron. Or maybe that's just me.
On vit, on code et puis on meurt.
And we don't have to pay higher taxes. How about taking away from the military? This is exactly what I'm talking about. You claim we don't have to pay taxes to pay taxes for science, we just need to cut the military's funding., Where do you think the military gets its money? TAX! Just because we can cut the military funding, doesn't mean we need to spend money on other stuff! We could just let people keep their own money rather then giving it to the goverment. Yet people seemt to think that a tax cut == goverment giving money to the people, it's not. Its people giving less money to the goverment. Now at the same time, I do support blue sky research, practical reseach, being done by the Goverment. Since it does produce many good things, that corporations wouldn't bother with. However if the goverment spends 20 million dollars trying to the average skin color the common bullfrog, then I think the goverment is getting a tad too much of my money for research.
Kinda of a stupid thought, but I'll through it out there. What if we have a nationwide vote every year to decide what catagory gets funding for science? x% goes to funding Biology. x% goes to physic's. x% goes to astronomy. x% goes to socialigy. Then which ever system you vote for, you pick which sub catagory gets funding, based on the overall catagories funding. say Biology gets 40%, 50% might go toward drug research, and 50% to new surgery techniques
I think one of the points is the artificial barriers to entry are disappearing in a lot of fields, I can make telescopes that out perform scopes of 50 yrs. ago and I can download hubble images as easily as any pro can.
My $200 bowling ball is just as good as any touring pro, hell i've even competed against former touring pro and occasionaly beat them. I sure there are a few avid Golfers and Tennis players who can say the say in their sports.
The world is moving toward a open, networked meritocracy, and away from being a secretive fuedal guild environment. If you can adapt you'll prosper, if you can't you'll parish.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
When I was around 10, my parents got me a copy of "RC Pro-Am" for the NES. Great game, but never knew what the name meant. Interesting..
"Ridicule us based on a sterotype that may not apply. This holds true in the media - look at how geeks are portrayed. It's always someone with big glasses, greasy hair, and clothes that don't quite fit right."
you seem pretty damn egotisitical to care about how your "class" is portrayed in the media. why not laugh it off? say haha media, thats what YOU think -- and proceed to have another snifter of hennesy.
also saying your smarter than everyone you know is kind of lame. news flash superman, everyone thinks they are smarter than everyone else. its called perspective.
personally, i dont care if geeks are supposed to get laid or not supposed to get laid. it really has no baring on my life. the one thing i think those sorts of stereotypes are good for are a nice warm feeling for those of us who dont get laid alot -or ever- as the case may be. why would you take the comedy of the lack of personal relationships and turn it into a horrible situation. just because you seem to be above middle class and probably shoot your own pr0n? this post was just an excuse to brag. so good job.
"The problem is that it's just not cool to be smart."
also the first step to being cool, is thinking cool which i dont think that you've mastered.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
One word:
Gadgets
Certainly a hero to much of the open source community.
"act more professional; put some pants on!"
does not fit with your contexts, yet is obviously[at least to me] an example of a correct usage of the professional meme. This isn't really your fault, it's hard to define words off the top of your head, hell, I think Chomsky might consider it impossible or something but most of his stuff on linguistics is above my head.So I suggest 4 ;
4. in addition to one of the above three, advanced maturity or at least a willingness to do what you are told without question.
Or is this some kind of albertan regional-dialect?
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
There are many high school and college drop-outs who have made highly substantial and visible contributions before "turning pro", if they do so at all. I don't want to "out" specific people who do not want this kind of attention, so I will only name the ones for whom this information is widely published and known, like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak (who only got his bachelor's degree long after leaving Apple), but there are also crucial free software subsystems (not just device drivers or little utilities) written and maintained by people who had not finished high school that the average Linux C programmer uses many times a day. I can think of four specific examples right now, but as I said, I won't name them because I think those people might not want this information publicized about them.
Same anonymous coward here. I want to correct something that I should have caught in proof reading: one of the four examples that I was thinking of is someone who completed high school and dropped out of college, another is someone who was in high school during the contribution that I'm thinking of, but I have no reason to believe that he has dropped out of anything. Also, I suspect that the people who dropped out of college probably have gotten around to taking the GED by now.
t isn't this a bit silly?
The people in this world, that actually give a shit, are the people that matter.
'nuff said.
Blogging because I can...
The definition is still lacking...unless the 4th meaning is from an Albertan regional dialect.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
open source geeks are converting high value programing jobs into low value support jobs.
nice going dudes...
You know I use open source products and as a consumer love open source, but I have to wonder all things considered how this affects jobs in IT. I mean assuming you replaced a company with an open source group, wouldn't there be less paid people (if any) involved? True, I doubt I a direct crossover like that would happen. I just think it does probably affect the industry, and i could see a good discussion about how this affects things in addition to IT going overseas and the reduction of IT and everything else.
True this is a slight bit off topic, but I think it would be an interesting slashdot discussion.
Party at O'zorgnax's Pub! Buy me a Slurmtini aye?