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Belkin Offering Pre-802.11N Products
redshield3 writes "Belkin is offering what it is calling "pre-802.11n" products for mass consumers now. CompUSA is reportedly carrying these items in stores. They claim 800% range improvement over 802.11g as well as full backwards compatibility and the ability to continue pushing out n-speeds when a 802.11g or 802.11b device is introduced to the network."
Surely that makes it 802.11M?
however wifi range is a constant headache for me
I saw one of these on the shelf the other day. The price wasn't much higher than for 802.11g options.... my biggest question would be whether a firmware upgrade would necessarily be able to bring these into full 802.11n compatibility once the standard is ratified?
It would suck to end up locked into a dead-end solution like that, but if it can be patched to become standard.... I might think about trying it out.
This is not new news, they were advertising them in november.
If it pushes out n-speeds, why is it considered a "pre-n" product?
:D
"If I release a hybrid car, before the first hybrid car is released..."
- Scott
- Scott
So what is the real-world speed of these rated-108mbps devices? Half? Third? Anyone tested one yet?
-m
http://www.invisik.com
Are they using real "n" technology? Or is it just their particular flavor of "n"?
I've had bad luck in the past with pre-standard equipment, but this one sounds pretty good. It seems to only be missing one of the features of the n standard. I thought N had essentially "wireless switching", in that the wireless bandwidth was not divided when multiple connections were established. If everything else lives up to their hype, this could be a good stop gap solution until the standard equipment comes out 3rd quater this year.
Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this", is a magnet for my -1 mod token. I hate to disappoint.
...another wireless standard significantly harmed by not-quite interoperable implimentations produced by ass-hat vendors.
Beep beep.
Billy
But can they run Linux? http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?grid=3 3&scid=35&prid=601
The question to ask is, are these things field upgradeable when the 802.11n standard is final? The site doesn't answer this question. You could be left with a very expensive b/g router/AP.
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
So why are they skipping around so much? we go from a to b to g to n? what the hell! after they use up all the letters in this half as order are they going to go back to the ones they're skipping and make it totally confusing? 802.11c is 50 times faster than 802.11z!
Want to learn about anything sexual? Check out the sex wiki:
There are a plethora of articles out there right now describing the chance you take buying "pre-N" wireless gear. Since there is no N standard yet, none of these companies can claim with any certainty thier product will be N compatable. If you buy one of these products, go in expecting that it won't work with true N when the spec is actually released.
How does 108 mbps, or twice that of 802.11g, figure to be 600% faster than 802.11g?
Real world throughput.
What will happen when we get to 802.11z?
Linksys WRT54GX: http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=6 70&scid=35 is a unofficial pre-N router.
Anyone want to take a guess why 802.11n takes 3 antenna and 802.11g has two or one?
"Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty, for security, will get, and deserve nether." - Benjamin Franklin
I worked for Staples over the break, and let me tell you, this stuff is just as bad of quality as Belkin's b/g wireless equiptment. Don't fall for their "Join the Pre-N Revolution" crap, just wait for Linksys or Netgear to release some certified 802.11n equiptment. Belkin's wireless products are definitely the bottom of the barell when it comes to consumer networking equiptment.
-|BlackErtai|-
We went through this with 56K modem and 802.11g standards. A vendor's marketing department tries to get the jump on everyone else by introducing equipment that is "pre-standard". People buy them to get the latest whiz-bang capability and either don't care about the consequences or are too clueless to understand them. If the approved standard turns out to be what the equipment uses then the company is home free with an existing market share. If not then marketing beats on engineering to put together a minimum cost (to the company) upgrade path. If there is no practical upgrade path then the customer is left with a doorstop and no recourse because the unread fine print says compatibility is not guaranteed. Either way the company profits by being first out of the gate.
Other manufacturers (Sun, Rio, etc) have released product with a full set of 'features' that, when you go to use them, return a message such as "This feature not yet implemented".
At least there is some effort to tell people that these aren't up to snuff yet.
And wouldn't it just be a huge marketing blitz if everyone bought these and they pulled the Sun Microsystems "Oh, you mean you're going to make us support that feature? That'll cost ya..."
Sorry I'm a bit bitter at manufactures pulling this and I think it should be an outlawed business practice.
NetGear or Linksys already made Pre-802.11N equipment.
I hope that Linksys will give free firmware updates being how good they are right now.
Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Bugs are good for building character in the user.
"Pop-up Blocker - 6 months of free pop-up, adware, and spyware stopper"
What I always wanted with a router! Now all I need is my two front teeth!
--> Isn't the router supposed to be able to stop some of this on its own (some adware/spyware), without needing any extra software...
Remember, this is the same Belkin which randomly tried to sell you Censorware.
According to C. Brian Grimm, communications director for the Wi-Fi Alliance, the range of 802.11g is about 10 percent LESS than 802.11b.
, 00.asp
http://www.pcworld.com/howto/article/0,aid,109041
Walter Mossberg, technocurmudgeon for the Wall Street Journal, loved the Belkin pre-N products (WAP and PC Card). They eliminated all the usual dead spots in his home. He even went so far as to say that if you need the improved coverage and speed now, screw the fact that it might become obsolete with the official N spec release.
what will Apple call it? Airport Extravagant? Airport Extra Extreme? Airport Groovy?
For the backward compatibility concerns I'm sure if we found the thread where Apple inroduced the Extreme family of routers in '02 or '03 whenever it was we'll find all sorts of 'how will they update em'
So far, I've had no problems with my TiVos, ThinkPads, Powerbooks, and iMac's attaching in B and G modes to them so they must have figured it out.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
It is also a disservice to the community to hype "pre" standards since it encourages companies to actually NON standardize in the rush to the trough.
The Wi-Fi Alliance said that it would strip 802.11n certification from products making such claims before IEEE standards agreement because companies often purposively make their "standard" non-compatible with other company "pre-standards."
The Tolly Group had a detailed comparison betweent his one and the Dlink, Linksys, etc. G routers and it looks like it is really a lot better in range and speed on G networks.
r =204134
http://www.tollygroup.com/DocDetail.aspx?DocNumbe
Belkin again, as they and/or their mail-in-rebate "partner" (in crime) screwed me on some 802.11b gear rebate a while back. The kicker is, once you send them your original UPC codes, you can't prove you did it anymore. Clever, isn't it? That's when they send you the pre-fab response card indicating that you sent in "copies" of the UPC codes... And they know that $50 is likely not worth your time and effort in small claims court... especailly since you can't PROVE anything.
Oh I'm sorry, this is off-topic? Since the original news item could be considered an advertisement, I figured potential customers would want to know the full story before they make a purchase.
How can they claim "WiFi Certified" at the begining of the advert for a "pre-n" product. Is this even legal?
There's not much of an advantage to using this. Current Broadband is not fast enough to come close to needing this for internet. On the other hand for big bulk transfers from machine to machine on the network it would very handy or for streming from machine to machine (Airtunes). Right now though, I will stick with my g AP....of course I said that about my B AP last year....right before I got my WRT54G! :D
Gorkman
My niece was visiting, and for whatever stupid reason, her middle school requires everyone have a laptop. (Insert rant about kids and computers here; apparently, using IM to chat about cute boyz is a new class they didn't have when I was in school. But I digreess.)
I like to offer my net connection to guests so they can chat on vacation. So I point her to the nearest wall socket and ask if she needs a cable.
"No, I'm just using the wireless connection. There's like 2 or 3 of them."
Of course, at the time, I didn't have a wireless connection. But a few of my neighbors do: LINKSYS, LINKSYS, and, uh, LINKSYS.
So, I'm all for more range. More free net access! And, this means I don't have to let anyone's spyware-ridden box on my home network when they visit.
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
Maybe they should fix their old gear before roling out the new fangled crap before theres evena demand? I have a wireless router/adsl modem from belkin which cuts my connection at random intervals. Contrary to what their support claims, a firmware upgrade did diddly squat. My older creative (non wireless) router was 100% reliable.
I dont care if this gadget has 40km range and cost $5, I'd never buy anything wth belkin wrrtten on it again.
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
The Register ran a good article about how products like this could ruin the standards process. A good read.
Personally, I'm not going to buy any more hardware until I can get something supporting 802.3. I'm told it will offer a range of nearly 100m!
From TFA:
It uses revolutionary smart antenna technology to boost wireless network speed and range far beyond that of today's standard 802.11b/g and 802.11a wireless networking technologies.
So anyone knows how these so called smart antenna work?
And talking about antennas, does anyone have more information on NASA's deer antler antenna?
This Belkin unit is the sweetest network device I've had the pleasure to work with. The range is phenomenal and the speed (with multiple devices connected) is very nice, too.
I confess, I've been a long-time fan of Belkin wireless products (it's about all the gear I've used of theirs). I buy Belkin WiFI products first; Netgear if Belkin isn't available; Any other brand just dissappoints.
Mi dos centavos.
Anyone else disturbed by the fact that people are referred to as "consumers"?
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
This product was reviewed back in October in PC Magazine. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1668063,00.as p
This seems a little like old news.
How many read this and said, WOW, I can go a km instead of this lousy 125m range I've got now?
Visiting the parent referenced product description we learn that the statement, "They claim 800% range improvement over 802.11g" is
UNTRUE!
What they claim is 800% coverage improvement over 802.11g.
The most gross correction comes if you note:
The volume, or coverage, in which the thing will operate may be 800% greater, but volume goes as a cube of length (distance, range, radius, depending on contextual semantics). So your 800% coverage improvement translates to a 200% range increase.
Add to this the myriad of devilish details which arise in any product comparison and the real world reange increase may be well less than times two.
Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!
It probably is (deceptive advertising is already against the law) but unless somebody hits them with a big lawsuit and wins, they won't see any reason to change their behavior. Their tactics work, they make money, the shareholders are happy. That's the downside of cut-rate products, cutthroat competition and concomitant low margins ... companies are highly motivated to, shall we say, push the envelope on ethical practices because even a slight edge on the competition really helps the bottom line.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Remember, these are the guys who tried to sell you deliberately non-working kit.
I don't buy from Belkin. I hope you choose not to, too.
Don't you buy staples at Staples?
The really sad thing is this will be bought by some people who think it's going to give them speed improvements, but who will never use their wireless links for anything more than connecting to their 1.5 mb/s DSL links, that even (a different brand of) 802.11b can do just fine.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Don't feel singled out .. D-Link did the same damn thing to me. I bought a DI-624 router and a couple of DWL-G520 wireless cards and I got the $10 back for each of the cards but got the same kind of response you got for the $50 on the router. Damn fulfillment companies ... personally I think it's a scam. Customer sends in rebate, gets rejected, fulfillment company takes money from vendor anyway and pockets it.
... I got my money.
As I mentioned in another thread, I resent the rebate (yes, a copy of the UPC code since I had had to send the original the first time) in a big manila envelope with "To The Thieves At D-Link" written on it in black marker. It worked too
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Does anyone know if any of the 802.11n products have non-ndiswrapper drivers?
My experience with Belkin is this: I have an 802.11b router (that I got well after the 802.11b standards were eatablished). It never did work right. Tech support was useless. The firmware is, in theory, upgradeable. I waited for a firmware fix. Finally I found new firmware on the Belkin site; but it is for version V2 of the router model that I have. I, and many others, have version V1 of the hardware. No firmware fix is available, we're just screwed. I see no reason to expect Belkin to do better on a technology where there isn't even a standard yet.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
The pre n router deserves a Nobel prize, instead of the stuff some of these responders have written from their armchairs. 1.Everything that Belkin is claiming is true and works as described. 2. Setup, once a Belkin problem, is now a standard for usability. 3. This router is using MIMO (google it) which uses the normal obstructions and delays of wireless networks to improve the transmission capability. Brilliant! and used by all future n routers. 4. Range of 800% is radial area, but do the math and see that linear range is what, 20%. I found it to be far greater than that. 5. I hooked two neighbors together on one cable connection. They now have high speed wireless--faster than YOURS and are 150 feet outdoors separation and two sets of walls. 6. All my old problems in my 5 computer network are resolved and everyone gets 54 with the old stuff and 108 constant with the pre n card. 7. NOTHING slows down b,g,high g, pre-n. It all works at rated, Mr couch potato respondent. 8. I paid $129 at Circuit City. The idiots at Best Buy never heard of it. CompUSA carries it. I consider this as paying $129 for a wireless network versus $50-60 for a passenger pigeon network. 9. Obsolesence as an objection? If this were a factor, what will you naysayers do with your b and g stuff? This router will not be obsolete and I do not care if it upgrades by firmware as some brain-dead respondents have tsk-tsked about. 10 I have nothing to do with Belkin, but their creativity here shocked even Linksys which belatedly has announced a preN router someday at $200. I hope the opinionated writers get one of those.
The N equipment gets its performance increases by using multiple channels simultaneously. This means that if you have other 2.4 GHz devices in your home, they will be most likely rendered almost useless.
I saw these in the store the other day at either Staples or Best Buy. I hadn't heard of them before so I took a pretty good lock at the box. It sure did sound promising... the quotes speeds and more importantly the quoted distances were really impressive. The price was a little bit high, I think it was 125 for the card and 125 for the router, but give them a few months and I'm sure it'll be cheaper.
I'm excited about distance improvements moreso than speed. Soon I'll be able to steal wireless connections from my neighbors down the street, not just those in the same building as me.
Hooray.
--
RumorsDaily
linky
The worst part, in my estimation, is that this generation of MIMO technology isn't what the final 802.11n specification will look like. So purchasing MIMO today except for specific applications in which you need substantially higher throughput and range from a single device over interoperable, certified 802.11g means you're buying a dead-end device.
Seems pointless to get it now for most.. until a mini pci version starts shipping and it's ratified.
Have they set out a timeline for the standard as of yet?
The WRT54GX uses the same chips if you'd rather buy from Linksys than Belkin.
That's ok. I bought a RCA Home theater system and sent my UPC in for a 100 off rebate. Never heard back from them. I think you need to send registered mail otherwise it gets "lost in the mail"
I got one of their Pre-N routers last week, and I like it quite a bit. The range is awesome, the web-based intergace is great, and the WAN port has a programmable MAC address. I'm enjoying my new router quite a bit.
This space for rent...
if thats so, then whats this: http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/55397 the official specs for N are completely different... this is just renamed 802.11g 108. They stuck in more antennas, and called it new.
my karma ran over your dogma
The Wi-Fi Alliance issued a press release last October ("Wi-Fi Alliance Will Not Certify Pre-Standard 802.11n Features") that says some pre-standard 802.11g products did not meet the final standard. I guess the earliest adapters got burned.
Other highlights from the press release:
- The Wi-Fi Alliance will not certify 802.11n products until the standard is ratified.
- The 802.11n standard will be completed in approximately November 2006.
- "Pre-standard products always present an inherent risk for technology adopters"
- "Vendors took advantage of unsuspecting buyers when they touted pre-standard technology for 802.11g that later did not meet the standard. Left unchecked, the industry is unfortunately poised to repeat itself with 802.11n."
Does the Wi-Fi Alliance's opinion mean shiit anyhoo?TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
A friend of mine works at CompUSA and they had the pre-N's a few weeks ago for testing. They had an unencrypted pre-N router set up in the tech-shop in back, and half way through the day, they got a call from the Starbucks Coffee 200 yards away and arround a corner (note: that all the buildings are made out of gnarly cinderblock and cement) that said the pre-N was giving customers a better connection then their own t-mobile hot-spot pay-to-surf router and please turn it off. The thing has crazy power!
in fact these have been available on Amazon since at least early last month - engadget even reviewed them over a month ago.
I expect registered or insured mail works fine but it may also be a good idea (if the rebate is large) to invest in a notorized copy for you records/later use.
The 802.11n standard will be completed in approximately November 2006.
If the standard won't be completed until November 2006, standards-compliance doesn't even become a factor for me.
I'm already pretty happy with my 802.11g gear, but if I were to go buy new stuff, I'd buy pre-N gear known to work together for my current systems. I can't really be bothered to worry about if the gear will be compatible with the "real stuff" almost 2 freakin' years from now... If the standard were right around the corner.. maybe.
Of course, YMMV, obviously I'm looking at this as a consumer and it doesn't apply for big 100+ computer enterprise networks, where you do have to worry about long term compatibility.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
To elaborate, my laptop (like many others) has two card slots placed on top of eachother. In one slot I have a USB2 card, which means I can't fit another card with an "upwards" bulge underneath. However no-one seems to make cards with the connector/antenna placed the other way around. Do such cards really not exist, or does anyone have another solution to the problem?
(It's also a major WTF why the bottom card slot isn't placed upside down or why the connector can't accept cards oriented either way - the port pins could be configured according to the plastic notch that now prevents insertion the wrong way around.)
There was no IPv5.
802.11h, and all the other letters do exist and are implemented. 802.11 does not simply refer to wireless link standards (.11, .11a, .11b, and .11g), but a whole set of wireless networking standards.
Look at this wikipedia entry about it.
That's all very well. However, does anyone remember why we don't like Belkin? The fiasco with their redirecting routers a year or so ago? I swore them off back then. It's hard not to buy Belkin though, they have some great rebate deals, but I've stuck to it so far.
Also if it could now, do g and b together without the slowdown of existing g systems, it would be worth it today.
I have not looked up the reference, but I seem to recall that there is another reason to dislike Belkin and not purchase their products.
If I recall correctly, Belkin was using Free Software components in one of their routers. They refused requests to make the source code for their router software available. This cause a bit of an uproar on Slashdot. There were some complaints lodged with Belkin, if I recall (I wrote them). I don't know if they reformed or not.
As a result, for low end home routers (which is the only thing that I buy directly) I have not considered Belkin, but purchase Linksys routers.
We just started carrying these at Staples. At least, the store I work at carries them now. They're still in a special shipper with propa^H^H^H^H^Hinformational brochures attached so everyone can ogle their new improved protocol details, which is not clearly marked as something not yet finalized...
MCT, and by default Tritton and Iogear, according to this site, are not living up to their GPL obligations on these NAS devices.
... sounds huge but could be as "little" as 1.52x in the +X, -X, +Y, -Y and +Z directions. With antennas that don't radiate appreciably outside the horizontal plane it could be as much as 1.68x. ("Coverage" probably infers either the area or volume of signal).
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
I work at Circuit City and we have been offering the Belkin Pre-N routers for over a month now. BTW I am in San Antonio, Texas
Or just quit buying items that have rebates. There's no other way (other than a class-action lawsuit, I guess) to tell manufacturers to knock the rebate scam off.
I always look specifically for items sold without rebates.
'CompUSA is reportedly carrying these items in stores'
Reportedly? We've been carrying these things for quite a long time now, a few months at least. They generally take up 90% of the Belkin area, and usually there's a table on the floor near networking with Pre-N equipment piled high on it.
Heck, we were using pre 802.11N stuff back in the late 80s. It was so 'pre' it would only work reliably if you plugged the other ends of the antenna into other machines in your network.
JADBP
My Dlink rebate took 8 months. For $10 cdn. That's like a buck 50 US.
My Belkin $50 rebate was back two weeks after, but I frigged it up by sending the credit card slip not the printed store invoice. I sent it to them and got the rebate in two more weeks. Mind you the rebate was handled by the store chain's own rebate centre.
It cost me $7.50 Cdn I, $50 instant rebate + $50 mail-in with $7.50 Tax. Not too bad a deal.
But just after I mailed the rebate UPC, I decided to flash the firmware to the current one. It failed and I had a brick. Now since I cut the UPC label off I couldn't take it back to the store for a refund. I must say that the store was helpful and tried to get a replacement, but with a sale like that they did not have any left in the chain or warehouse. They suggested I should call Belkin. After a couple of calls to Belkin's helpdesk they did the basic tests and fixes and shipped me a replacement. Lifetime warranty. I have to say I never had any issues with the helpdesk service, I think however that they could have fixed the first router if they knew what they were doing. After a lot of research I found a forum thread on Seattle Wireless for the linksys 54G that helped be fix the router that failed. So now I have two.
BTW the fix was;
The TFTP server is hardcoded in to the router to accept firmware. So you should just have to use a TFTP client to send a new firmware image to the bricked router. But the "brick" can be so hosed the TFTP will time out. This is because the PC can not see the router in it's ARP cache. The ARP cache needs to be updated manually to add the MAC address on the routers switch to the default IP the router uses. Now the PC can "see" the router the the TFTP communication will work.
Blah. I tested one of the new Belkin "Pre-N" routers a couple of months ago and was rather disappointed with the range that $150 bought.
If you want range get a Linksys WRT54G and go here.
New firmware allows radio power increase of 900%. If that's not enough (and you feel like breaking some Federal Laws) boost the signal up to 251 milliamps with the sveasoft firmware (from measely out of the box rating of 32mA) and screw on a pair of the new $60 7dbi antennas that linksys just started selling. . .
http://shit.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/09/1 70229
SmoothWall
I thought the Wi-Fi Alliance was going to pull all certifications for vendors who attempted to "Pre-N" products and who disrupt the standard by releasing products before the standard is ready. The Alliance has trademarks for Wi-Fi compatibility. If vendors claim something is even partially 802.11n compatible and try to use them they should just yank everything and sue. Greedy actions like this just ruin the whole point of standards.
if you'd RTFA, it states it can transmit a, b and g signals and still do 108mb on the "n-band", simeltaniously.
moox. for a new generation.
I used to think the same thing, but Staples has actually made a significant change.
"easyrebates".
you enter 2 numbers off of the receipt and get an email back right away.
Thank you for submitting your rebate request(s) through Staples Easy
Rebates. We have received rebate information for the following
product(s):
WIRELESS 108MBPS 4 PORT-ROUTER
We will begin processing your request(s) shortly. In the future, you
will be able to track the status of your rebate(s) here:
watch out for them underpants gnomes:
phase 1: steal underpants
phase 2: ???
phase 3: profit!
Please quote the sentence that you believe is "absolutely wrong!". It seems to me that the grandparent post's point that 8X coverage improvement means only 2X range improvement is correct. The grandparent never said that "range" is proportional to the number of computers likely to be reachable by the access point.
Yes, but existing systems can not do g and b together and stay at 54 speed. So the question is not weither it can do these and stay in the n-band but can it do g at 54 while serving b as well.
That's a good one too.
The one that I refer to is that Belkin thought that it was a "good idea" to hijack every 1000th (or something) web page request and redirect users to a Belkin page that tried to sell them stuff.
It's bad enough if a company makes buggy products. It's another thing completely if they build a product that intentionally works in a manner different than advertised in order to line their pockets. It's not much different than unkillable porn popup storms, in principle.