Lexus Computers Infected Via Bluetooth

Country_hacker writes "SCNews is reporting certain models of Lexus have been found with corrupted operating systems in their on-board computers. Evidently the virus got transferred through the Bluetooth interface. It's still unclear whether or not the computers run Symbian."

Comments

Obligatory

[fembots]

Bill Gates is a known Lexus driver. In 1999 he auctioned one for charity.

So maybe this thing is running Windows? In this case, we already have a solution.

And shouldn't vehicle have a read-only section just for the essentials? So that even the main system is down, the car will detach the OS and still function like a, like a, car?

Re:Obligatory

[greechneb]

So I guess that we have to close all the open windows, get out, and then open the windows again?

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[Thud457]

Isn't that how cars started going feral in Roger Zelazny's "Last of the Wild Ones"? (And "Devil Car" and "Auto-de-Fé", too).

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[HungWeiLo]

Try:

Up, down, up, down, left, right, left, right, blinkers, horn, clutch, gas.

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[austad]

I did this a month ago, and my tank is still on full. I took out 4 pedestrians too, a Nissan titan, someone's dog, and a row of mailboxes with no damage.

The new Konami ECU rules.

Re:Obligatory

[QuasiEvil]

It almost certainly will still run, unless it's a completely idiotic design. The ECM and/or PCM (engine control module / powertrain control module, whatever these cars call it, the thing that runs the automatic transmission, the injectors, the spark, idle air control, etc.) is almost certainly not attached in any meaningful way to an embedded computer running a known OS. They're all attached to some sort of bus on modern OBD-II cars, but the ECM is usually capable of operating on its own. ECMs and PCMs are usually 8 or 16 bit micros with truly embedded software (read: no conventional OS, written specifically for the application at hand). Modern ones are flash-upgradable, but I highly doubt this would be enabled through any sort of radio interface, and even if it was, it wouldn't be any sort of thing where it could pick up a virus.

Sounds to me like the fancy mapping stuff and maybe some user interfacing is controlled by the affected computer, not the fundamental powertrain stuff. Any car designer that runs his powertrain off anything but a hardened, reliable, embedded micro is just an idiot, and I can't believe Toyota would do something that dumb.

Re:Obligatory

[drinkypoo]

The car has a whole separate computer for essentials. These used to run a single program as a matter of course but some of them are now fast enough to run a RTOS instead, and some of the communications protocols used today essentially demand that you have a real OS on there. The cars actually have several computers in them now, and probably have one each for the engine, transmission, skid control, body management, and maybe even separate units to manage power seatbelts. The airbags might have a computer or just some relays, too. Then, there is a computer that manages stuff like navigation and entertainment, and maybe climate control. Oh yeah, that's anoth computer I forgot, climate control. It even has several of its very own sensors and actuators...

Anyway, all of this stuff is connected together to some degree except the entertainment computer, which probably only connects to the PCM, usually through the BCM, when climate control is managed by it. Seatbelts connect to the BCM, climate control might, airbags will. The ABS will connect to the PCM in cars with traction control and also tell the transmission's computer (connected to the PCM) what to do, as well as modulating throttle via the PCM.

The car already contains a network of computers, and each one typically is designed to work with its neighbor and only powertrain components directly influence units to which they are not attached. The worst thing you might do to a car like this (in most cases) is screw with the climate control settings.

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[Alien Being]

It's worth a shot. Don't waste your time trying to look under the hood, though.

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[Alien Being]

If you want hardened and reliable, then install a carburetor and a magneto.

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[TheKubrix]

You got it wrong.... it starts as: Up Up Down Down..... you obviously never played the game otherwise it would have been embedded for life ;)

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[MadHungarian1917]

How do you think the 'Mod' chips work. they UPLOAD code to the PCM. All the systems are linked so as to enable the systems to interoperate ie climate control is tweaked down a notch when the engine is heavily loaded or in danger of overheating.

An Air gap is a good idea for critical networks whether they be located in a nuclear power station or your spiffy new car.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I drive an automatic you insensitive clod!

(Semi-)seriously, does Lexus even make cars with clutches anymore?

Re:Obligatory

[B3ryllium]

I can just imagine the logo -

"Magneto Inside"

What's Under YOUR Hood?

(But then the X-Men would chase you everywhere and you'd have to fight off all the yellow spandex crazies.)

Re:Obligatory

[johnmat]

An air gap is not going to help much to stop Bluetooth (unless its more than 15 feet...)

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[Moofie]

...and flush your fuel economy down the toilet.

There's a reason electronic fuel injection exists. You can't get the power to displacement ratios of modern motors with a carburetor.

There are plenty of reasons to use a carburetor. There are also plenty of reasons to not. Anybody who thinks one system is always better than the other is poorly informed.

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[tonyr60]

"An Air gap is a good idea for critical networks whether they be located in a nuclear power station or your spiffy new car"

I don't think bluetooth respects the isolation of an air gap.

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[MadHungarian1917]

Ah, hoisted on my petard!

I meant the concept of an air gap where no direct communication is possible between two networks one secure one not

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[AndroidCat]

If you do either in a Lexus you'll probably be embedded for life.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure about these ideas guys?

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[Alien Being]

"...and flush your fuel economy down the toilet."

Not necessarily. I've seen carbureted bigblock engines get better mileage than injected smallblocks.

"You can't get the power to displacement ratios of modern motors with a carburetor."

Power-to-displacement is meaningless. Cubic inches are free. Remember, big engines turn slower than small ones, another reason why they're more reliable.

I didn't say that EFI is useless, just that carbs are more reliable. The computer controlled carbs of the early 80s had some good things going for them. The computer would keep the mixture right, but the engine would still run close to perfect even if the computer died.

Re:Obligatory

[HungWeiLo]

I find it extremely troubling that somebody modded this informative.

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[Moofie]

"carbureted bigblock engines get better mileage than injected smallblocks"

And I've seen fuel injected smallblocks get better mileage than carbureted bigblocks.

I bet there are more of mine than there are of yours.

"Cubic inches are free"

Not at the gas pump, they aren't. Mass is never free, particularly when we're talking about performance cars. We are talking about performance cars, right?

Carbs more "reliable"? I don't quite know what that means. You can buy EFI cars today that, assuming you change the oil occasionally and put fuel in the tank, will run for over 100,000 miles. That's reliable enough. No "tune ups" necessary.

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[ektor]

He had an Lexus LS in the past. Last I've heard he was driving an E38 BMW 750iL.

Re:Obligatory

[kd5ujz]

Not usually Most will intercept the signal from the sensor, then modify it, and then pass it on to the ECU. Most of them ( Hyper Tech especially) fit into the ECU socket, and you plug the wiring harness into the mod chip. No damming evidence when you go for a warranty repair, just remove the chip, and re-attach the wiring harness.

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[wolrahnaes]

"does Lexus even make cars with clutches anymore?"

IIRC, the IS300 is available with a 6 speed manual tranny.

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[Alien Being]

"We are talking about performance cars, right?"

No, we're talking about reliability.

"EFI cars today that, assuming you change the oil occasionally and put fuel in the tank, will run for over 100,000 miles."

Within that 100k miles, there's a good chance that the car will be dead on the road due to something related to EFI or electronic ignition.

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[spannah]

I read the the MS vs. GM funny and I already have number six on my somewhat GM car.

It doesn't say "General Protection Fault", instead it says "Service Engine Soon".

Re:Obligatory

[blew_fantom]

well, the problem is that so many functions of the car are SO tied to the chip that well, it CAN'T work like a car without it. What with the upscale cars having variable cylinders active depending on driving conditions, car "figuring" out who's driving and adjusting itself to the driver, skid control, traction control, manumatic transmission, heck, even the ubiquitous ABS, most cars today can't function without a nice little chip and little OS to run the damn thing. witness my old suzuki sidekick. when the chip died, it cost me $3,000US - which was more than what the kelly blue book said the mini-suv was worth!

while i'm ranting, even diagnotistics are all done via "computer". the good ole' days of mechanics knowing what's wrong just by the sound of the engine are long gone. if the diagnostic computer doesn't tell the mechanic what's wrong with the car (spewing out it's event log basically), well, they don't know what to do.

Re:Obligatory

[Moofie]

"No, we're talking about reliability."

Buy a Honda. Oh, you had some carbureted car from Mars that's more reliable than that? I'd love to see your numbers, because I'm pretty sure you're making them up.

"Within that 100k miles, there's a good chance that the car will be dead on the road due to something related to EFI or electronic ignition"

I think there's a good chance you're lying.

I had a car's EFI die. I was driving a Miata that didn't have a roof, and I had 3" of water inside the car. The ECU died. I bought another one at a junkyard, plugged it in, and it worked fine.

You claim that carbureted vehicles are more reliable. I defy you to substantiate your claim.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus Christ...how many more acronyms can one post list? Oh nevermind.....I mean: JC, hmmac's can 1pst list...nm

Re:Obligatory

[Alien Being]

"I had a car's EFI die. I was driving a Miata that didn't have a roof, and I had 3" of water inside the car. The ECU died. I bought another one at a junkyard, plugged it in, and it worked fine."

You're making my point for me. Electronics hate water, extreme heat, extreme cold, vibration and an unstable power supply. The waterlogged miata would have run fine with a carb and non-computerized ignition. You're lucky that you didn't need it in an emergency. There are fewer single points of failure in the old cars and when they do fail, they tend to do it gradually. Another advantage was that the parts were more generic and more restorable.

Re:Obligatory

[Moofie]

There might be fewer single points of failure, yes. However, since cars are better engineered today than they ever have been, modern cars are more reliable. Again, I would love to hear you argue otherwise.

Yes, when I put 3" of water on top of my ECU, it died. Do you think similar failures can't happen to carbureted vehicles?

Re:Obligatory

[Alien Being]

"However, since cars are better engineered today than they ever have been, modern cars are more reliable."

In general, I think you're wrong on both of those statements. The types of failures that happen today just didn't exist.

"Yes, when I put 3" of water on top of my ECU, it died. Do you think similar failures can't happen to carbureted vehicles?"

How could they happen? There is no ECU, no crank sensor, no MAF sensor, no high impedence circuits, no fuel pump motor, no electrical connections whatsoever. The only enemy of carburetors is fuel contamination, and FI is equally susceptible.

It's the same story with the ignition. The transistors die, crank/cam sensor problems, etc.

Just look at block diagrams of the 2 systems and it should be obvious which is more reliable.

Re:Obligatory

[Moofie]

You can think all you want. Consumer Reports disagrees with you. Unless you've got some serious evidence, I'd say you're nuts.

There may be different types of failures, but if they're less common, that means "more reliable".

Can you keep old cars running for a long time with proper maintenance? Absofrickin'lutely. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the conversation at hand.

There's more to engineering than block diagrams. Assuming similar parts, yes, the simpler machine will be more reliable. However, since an old Dart and a new Camry do NOT have similar parts, your contention doesn't hold water.

Are you seriously arguing that your Edsel is more reliable than a modern Accord? I think you're high.

Re:Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

It almost certainly will still run, unless it's a completely idiotic design. The ECM and/or PCM (engine control module / powertrain control module, whatever these cars call it, the thing that runs the automatic transmission, the injectors, the spark, idle air control, etc.) is almost certainly not attached in any meaningful way to an embedded computer running a known OS.

But they will be in the next generation. There's already talk within the car industry of "putting your engine on the internet", that is by connecting the "entertainment system" to the management system. This would allow the manufacturer to sell you interesting extras such as "thirty extra horsepower for fourteen days" or the like. I know for a fact that they know next to nothing about security (but quite a bit about safety).

So while it may not be true that you could do something "interesting" to the car with a virus today, in not too many years, that might not be true anymore.

I'm posting this anonymously for the obvious reasons, that is, I'm not supposed to say this.

Re:Obligatory

[Alien Being]

"Consumer Reports disagrees with you."

I must have missed that issue. All I've seen is 3 or 4 years trends.

"There may be different types of failures, but if they're less common, that means "more reliable"."

Not just different types, but so many more of them. And they are not less common. The old parts were just too simple to break. I know many veteran mechanics who swear this is true and it backs up my personal experience. On a long trip through the desert, there's no doubt in my mind which car I would trust not to leave me stranded with the helamonsters.

Re:Obligatory

[EvilJoker]

Lexus is simply Toyota's upper line. The SC 400/430/470 is basically a Supra, the IS300 is a performance car, etc. So yeah, they make a few stick shifts.

Re:Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

GM cars are certainly connected to a certain degree. I know that on the Impala, etc. you reset the "Change oil" "Check Engine" and other service reminders THROUGH THE CONTROLS ON THE RADIO. The radio also selects feature control for the keyless entry, security sys, a ton of car "features". On the 2003-up trucks, you have to get the dealer to reprogram the body computer when you do things like add (factory pre-wired) fog light options. All it does is tell the computer this option "exists" and to click the relay when the button is pushed. What happens when you replace the factory radio with an aftermarket? Can someone chime in? Oh yeah, the door chimes go through the radio speakers too! Way too much integration IMNSHO.

Re:Obligatory

[cloudmaster]

You mean a magneto like this one? http://www.msdpromag.com/p5.htm

Re:Obligatory

[Grab]

Reliability?

Carbs and contact-breaker (points) ignition systems are *incredibly* unreliable in damp conditions, and are not great in the cold either. If you've never had your car fail to start on a winter's day, you are one lucky individual! The only time I've had an electronic fuel/injection car fail to start in the cold or damp, it was because the HT leads had broken down. I couldn't count the number of times my first (carb & standard ignition) car failed to start, and the same with my friends' cars of the same vintage.

Another prominent carb issue that EFI doesn't have is the float chamber problem. If the float gets a leak, you're screwed - fuel goes everywhere. Or if the float gets stuck, you're screwed again - the car runs for a minute or so and then dies. A good solid thump generally unsticks it, but we're talking reliability, right? Something that needs a regular kick to run is not what I'd call reliable.

And then we get to the spark plugs. It doesn't take much wear on a carb for it to get the air/fuel ratio wrong, and then your plugs get killed one way or another. Plus contact-breaker ignition systems don't give a consistent voltage for the spark, and excessive voltage causes wear on the spark plugs. An EFI car can easily go 2 years or more with the same spark plugs - contact-breaker ignition systems need plugs to be replaced every 6 months, and often needed re-gapping more often.

I've never bought a new car yet - my current car is the newest I've ever had, at 30K miles on the clock. All the ones previously have been 60-80K on the clock, and whilst they've all been absolute dogs mechanically and bodywork-wise, I've never had a single failure of the electronics. The only time anything went wrong on any of them, it was a broken connector tab to the electronic ignition, and that could just as easily have happened on any type of ignition.

But suppose something had gone wrong? Sorting it is easy - new module and it all works. Try fixing your carbs in the same length of time!

Note that I've not even touched on fuel economy or emissions, both of which carbs fail miserably at. For a given volume of engine, an EFI car will always get better on both than a car with carbs. And a larger volume of engine will always require more fuel for the same acceleration, because engine volume impacts directly on vehicle construction and hence vehicle mass.

Now granted, there could be something peculiar in the software. I work in automotive software, so I know some of it ain't so hot. But it goes through pretty rigorous testing, so by the time it hits the road it's in decent shape. And even then, it's very rare to get a quit-on-road - more often it's noise or vibration caused by an oscillation somewhere, which can be majorly annoying but rarely damaging.

Grab.

Re:Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

75 dollars for the required plug harness for an aftermarket radio. comes with a black box with an anoyingly loud ding!

Re:Obligatory

[Moofie]

You mean the veteran mechanics who are having trouble adjusting to the new techniques and tools of auto repair? They're the ones who say things like "You can't work on new cars! It's all computer-y under there!", apparently completely failing to notice the entire subculture of import car modification. Just because those guys don't know how to do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

If you're taking long trips through the desert, get a Land Cruiser or a HMMWV. For real-world driving, if reliability is your concern, buy a Japanese sedan.

Re:Obligatory

[Alien Being]

I'm aware of the drawbacks to carbs and points. Points are easily dried and/or replaced, and carbs will almost always give notice that something isn't right.

Electronic ignitions are not always as easy to sort out as you say. Sure, there's a good chance it's the module, but it could also be the crank sensor.

Most old car problems could be fixed on the side of the road. Not so with the new ones. Having to take down the fuel tank to replace the pump is a good example. And new cars need very specialized parts. Good luck finding them on a sunday, or in a small town.

Re:Obligatory

[Alien Being]

No. I'm talking about smart guys who completely understand the electronics and make decent money fixing them. But you do raise an interesting point. Car makers are increasingly making it difficult to get the required info. And that too has a negative impact on reliability.

Auto engineers are too fucking stupid these days to even make a decent intake gasket.

"For real-world driving, if reliability is your concern, buy a Japanese sedan."

Yuk.

Re:Obligatory

[Moofie]

You don't like Japanese sedans, but you simply can't deny that they're the most reliable cars ever built on Earth.

Hell, I don't like 'em very much either (with a few conspicuous exceptions: Mazdaspeed 6, Legacy GT...) but I vastly prefer them to anything with four doors to come out of America in the last 30 years.

What criteria do you have for "decent intake gasket" other than "works for 100,000 miles without any user intervention whatsoever"?

Re:Obligatory

[Alien Being]

"What criteria do you have for "decent intake gasket" other than "works for 100,000 miles without any user intervention whatsoever"?"

Works for 200,000 miles or more. The plastic junk they use these days just doesn't cut it.

"you simply can't deny that they're the most reliable cars ever built on Earth."

Yes, I can. I'm not talking about how often the glovebox latch fails. I'm talking about the odds of the engine getting fuel and spark when you turn the key.

Re:Obligatory

[B3ryllium]

No, like this one.

Re:Obligatory

[EnglishDude]

Heh...

1.2l (73ci) 1992 Vauxhall Nova here, my 2nd car I've owned for 6 years. It has a singlepoint injection, has done over 124,000 miles, cost £4,000 new (my dad owned it originally), cheap ass car, only one breakdown since its manufacture which was a broken lambda sensor in which a quick replacement fixed it - and it was only because the car was so cheap it didn't even have a "limp home" mode on its ECU program. Original clutch, original head gasket etc. Starter motor had to be changed but only because the solenoid was sticking when the engine was hot. I know of many EFI Novas which has done over 200,000 miles with only a couple breakdowns. Oh yeah, and my experience is that the car goes 250 miles on one tank in towns, 450 miles motorways and each time I fill up, I put in 35 liters (9 US gallons) of petrol. It's also still smooth as a nut, and once I accidentally left the engine running overnight (>10 hours) it only used less than 1/8th of a tank (5 liters). Downside, the power output of the engine totally sucks, only 45bhp and I think that was being optimistic.

Anyway, compare that with my old car, again an Nova, only had it for 2 years, made in 1989, same 1.2l engine block but different head, carbed, broke down more times than I can remember. It had only 60,000 miles on the clock when I finally flogged it, but it suffered a blown head gasket (1 month after I got it no less!), and many others (but it was over 6 years ago so don't remember), drank petrol like there was no tomorrow, 200 miles out of a tank if I was lucky. At least it was 55bhp....

Also my mum's N reg Ford Mondeo (96 I think), full of electronic gizmos. My mate and I betted it'd have a serious breakdown at 80k miles (he's a carb nut like you, I'm more open to both) but it's at 95k miles now and it's still in a very good condition, never broke down ever. Only needed new tyres, battery, exhaust, and always serviced and nothing else. Even better than my newer Nova.

My view is that if you look after and service a carbed or injected car very well, it will look after you for a very long time.

Re:Obligatory

[Alien Being]

Your broken lambda sensor is exactly the type of problem I'm talking about. As you know, that sensor isn't even critical. The system should have run from baseline settings. That it was a cheap replacement is of little consolation unless you have a spare in the glovebox and can change it on the side of the road.

I'm not the "carb nut" you think I am. I like EFI despite the breakdowns such as the one I had when the crank sensor died and the one when the fuel pump croaked. If EFI were fully redundant and used common off-the-shelf components, I'd be much less leery of them.

"I know of many EFI Novas which has done over 200,000 miles with only a couple breakdowns."

I know of both EFI and carbed cars that have gone that distance with zero breakdowns.

"My view is that if you look after and service a carbed or injected car very well, it will look after you for a very long time."

With a carb, yes, tune it and clean it. With EFI there are too many things which "don't require maintenance", they just die. Do people think EFI is more reliable because it needs less routine maintenance? If so, then I think they have the wrong definition of reliability.

I'm old enough to remember when 99.9% of cars were carbureted. I don't miss sticking chokes and clogged jets, but those problems wouldn't usually cause a breakdown. The car would just be hard to start or it would run rough until you got a tune-up.

Re:Obligatory

[Grab]

You're right, putting the fuel pump inside the tank is a dumb move. Not really related to the electronics issue though.

And you're right too - there were a larger number of old-car problems that could be fixed on the side of the road. Reason? Not only were there more problems available with old cars, they happened more often! So there needed to be the facility to fix them more easily.

With contact-breaker ignition, the distributor had to be somewhere you could get to. The points needed adjusting every 6 months, and the points, rotor arm and distributor cap needed replacing at regular intervals. Plus you needed to be able to accurately turn the distributor to adjust the spark timing. All that meant the distributor had to be somewhere easily accessible. Today there's no points, and electronic ignition controls the spark so the rotor arm and distributor cap may only need changing once or twice in the life of the car. There's so much less to go wrong that putting the distributor cap somewhere hard-to-reach is not a big deal. And newer cars have even done away with the distributor cap by using coil-over sparks, with the result that even if one lead is dodgy, there's three more cylinders to get you home.

I don't agree with you on the "specialised parts" though. All cars have always needed special parts (points, for instance - every car would have different ones). I can't think of many "non-specialised" parts on old cars. The most I can come up with is that you could replace the carbs or air filters with different ones for higher performance.

Grab.

Re:Obligatory

[cloudmaster]

That one's gay. :)

Re:Obligatory

[Alien Being]

"Not only were there more problems available with old cars, they happened more often!"

There are far more ways a new car can fail. The weak parts in old cars were, as you stated, part of the routine maintenance plan. If you never get a tuneup and you ignore the warning signs, then yeah, those points will eventually burn up.

"I can't think of many "non-specialised" parts on old cars."

Coils, water pumps, starters, switches, lamps, batteries, hoses, belts, pulleys, motor mounts, gas caps, keys, gaskets, manifolds, fasteners, fluids, heater cores and ac evaporators, radiators and ac condensers, cables, and many others were more far more generic in the old days.

Re:Obligatory

[Grab]

More ways? I guess you mean the ABS or power steering failing, or something like that? OK, there are many more systems like that on new cars, so I guess there are more ways for stuff to fail. But the way higher reliability of this stuff means they *don't* fail often.

Re generic parts: Really? My memory is that most of these were manufacturer-specific (particularly coils, pumps, starters, lamps, keys, manifolds, pulleys, belts, gaskets) and frequently vehicle-specific. In many cases you've got *more* standardisation now that OEMs contract someone like Bosch or Marelli to make stuff, and you've also got the option of buying "pattern parts" which you never had back in the old days. Batteries and cables are as generic now as they ever were.

The worst case for variety of components on a car is when the company gets bought out and new variants of the car are subsequently produced. My current car (a Seat) is a classic example of this - parts could be original Seat, Audi or VW spec and you practically need to know the month of manufacture to know which part you need! But this is the result of bad management, not an inherent feature of new cars - Austin, British Leyland and Rover went through the same thing back in the 70s. Fords OTOH are generally pretty consistent.

There's certainly more variety of fluids now, but that's mainly due to increases in performance and expected lifespan requiring advances in lubricant technology (a gearbox that previously would require replacing at 80K miles is now expected to run for twice that or more), so just sticking 10W/40 oil in everything is no longer an option. Modern vehicles are fairly consistent in the standards of fluids they need - the variety on sale is often more to allow older vehicles to keep running with the same obsolete fluids they originally used. You could go back to putting 10W/40 in everything if you wanted, but you'd be back to the life expectancy that older cars had (which is much less).

And cables and batteries

Re:Obligatory

[EnglishDude]

Yes I agree, but remember this is an extremely cheap GM car with an EFI system designed in 1989 bolted on top of a car that was designed for carbs. This is also a car that you can buy a working good running engine, maybe 60,000 miles on, along with ECU and loom for £20 at a scrapyard. Nearly all EFI cars that I read the manual always talk of some "Limp Home Mode" but my car evidently doesn't have one despite that it'd be easy to implement one as all ECU's has a "Cold running mode" to use when the lambda sensor is cold.

The other thing I think of is that when reading the Haynes manual for Novas - it shows an exploded diagram for a 1.2 carb, and an exploded diagram for a 1.2 singlepoint injection throttle body - and damn, there's far fewer parts in a throttle body than a carb.

"Do people think EFI is more reliable because it needs less routine maintenance? If so, then I think they have the wrong definition of reliability." - that's what I'm trying to say, EFI cars needs as much maintenance as carbed cars.

Symbian and Cabir Virus

[EggMan2000]

Cabir is transmitted as an SIS file (Symbian distribution file), disguised to be a Caribe Security Manager utility. If the infected file is launched, the telephone screen will display the inscription "Caribe".

The worm penetrates the system and will then be activated each time the phone is started. Cabir scans for all accessible phones using Bluetooth technology, and sends a copy of itself to the first one found.

Here is a link Caribe

Anti-virus companies have been warning for some time that mobile networks could be the next targets of virus authors. Mikko Hyppönen, director of anti-virus research at F-Secure, said several months ago that there was a danger of viruses spreading into GPRS networks through USB ports, and that pocket-PC devices would be easy targets for virus coders.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[gl4ss]

If by "penetration" you mean : User willfully installs, then yeah, you're right.

want to bet a tenner that the car getting 'infected' is just the virus arriving in the cars obex inbox, sitting there and doing _nothing_.

the anti virus companies would like their hand on the symbian/smartphone pie.. so they're making these things sound far worse than they are.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't that still allow the car to function as a carrier? Typhoid Mary never got sick but because of her many people were exposed to serious disease and became sick.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[tunasaladsandwich]

Key point: If launched. The user has to explicitly run the application to "infect" his phone and let it spread. Call me old fashioned, but that doesn't even count as a worm, let alone a virus.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[HotNeedleOfInquiry]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't running Sybian in a Lexis be pretty dangerous?

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[EggMan2000]

Wouldn't that still allow the car to function as a carrier? Typhoid Mary never got sick but because of her many people were exposed to serious disease and became sick.

Because it is just sitting in the inbox, unexecuted. This is not yet a worm that can be spread by doing nothing.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[cayenne8]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but, why would a CAR have bluetooth???

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Moofie]

So you don't have to have a hard-wired handsfree system. It makes much more sense to have Bluetooth than have different wires for each of the stupid brands of phones...

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[timbck2]

Key point: If launched. The user has to explicitly run the application to "infect" his phone and let it spread. Call me old fashioned, but that doesn't even count as a worm, let alone a virus.

Correct -- that makes it a trojan.

But it's just semantics -- you don't want worms, viruses, or trojans; they're all potentially just as harmful.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[cayenne8]

Hmmm...is it "that" hard to talk and drive for people?? I don't do it often, but, it isn't rocket science to talk on a cell phone and drive....and I have a 4 speed.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Moofie]

Why do you care what other people have in their cars?

And where did you get a Cayenne with a four-speed?

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

Well, depending on your location it may be illegal to talk on your cell phone without a hands free system(New Jersey, I think). Also given the number of morons whose elbows block their peripherial vision while on the phone, I would say yes, it is that hard to talk and drive.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[lounger540]

Hard? No. Legal? No, atleast in the great state of New York and the surrounding New Jersey that I know of so far. There's others right? Please tell me we're not the only ones w/ bicycle helmet legislation.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[dunng808]

Not if the car were ordered with the optional Body Online Digital System (BODS), which includes seats with built-in Waste Effluent Trasport (WET) and a high speed parallel port to plug in a Sybian as an I/O accessory. With these options you can come and go all day, but you have to be careful not to over-do it or you'll WET your BODS.

Sony is rumored to be developing a life-like female-looking robot that can ride the BODS without the limitations imposed by the WET. This should be a must-have toy for /.ers, who according to conventional wisdom cannot expect to share their BODS with a real woman. MegaTokyo's Ping is an early prototype.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Jeppe Salvesen]

Actually, talk'n'drive without a handsfree is a pretty common cause of traffic incidents and kills quite a few people a year.

In Europe, it's illegal to talk'n'drive without a handsfree in quite a few countries (Norway, and Great Britain as well if I recall correctly - plus all the ones I don't know about)

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Anonymous Coward]

Portugal and Spain, also.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Lillesvin]

Denmark and possibly Sweden and Finland as well, though I'm not sure about the last two.

Actually, here in Denmark, it's illegal to talk on a phone (without a hands-free set) while riding bicycles, cars, horses and - I think - even roller-skates and the like.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[gl4ss]

it's "easy" to even read a newspaper while driving.

is it safe or legal? no.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[cayenne8]

" Why do you care what other people have in their cars?...And where did you get a Cayenne with a four-speed?"

Well, I don't much really, except in this case, it appears that possibly bluetooth from this Lexus would 'reach out' and infect other peoples phones..or at least the concept of cars with bluetooth infecting since they 'broadcast' might give one pause as to needing it in a very mobile vehicle.

I don't have a cayenne...I have a 911 Turbo. I've had the nick for ages...and was sick about Porsche not only putting out an SUV...but, also the naming of it...

:-)

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[cayenne8]

"Hard? No. Legal? No, atleast in the great state of New York and the surrounding New Jersey that I know of so far. There's others right? Please tell me we're not the only ones w/ bicycle helmet legislation."

Interesting...I didn't know there were places it was illegal....not illegal anywhere I live. Heck, I was pissed that out new Gov. put the motorcycle helmet law back into effect. I hope she get's voted out next time...

I'd say in general, down here in the South, we're not quite as regulated in everything you want to do. I hear other states have emission checks for cars...and inspections that are pretty tough to pass. Down here...IF you live in a state that does inspections...it is just honk the horn, turn on the lights and wipers, and brake lights...and you're good to go.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Moofie]

I'm much more worried about cars that run people over than cars that might theoretically someday in non-laboratory conditions transmit a fairly innocuous worm. But that's just me.

Bummer about the name. Where'd you get a 911 Turbo with a four-speed? Or are you a power-off oversteer aficionado? : )

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[cayenne8]

"Bummer about the name. Where'd you get a 911 Turbo with a four-speed? Or are you a power-off oversteer aficionado? : )"

I bought it from a physician friend of mine. It is a 1986 911 Turbo...black on black. They only came with a 4 speed back then I believe...but, has been slightly modded over the years...it was raced at one time and I've got tears in the headliner where the roll bar used to be....when we rebuilt the engine, the heads were pitted where it had run alcohol in the past...but, little car. Avg. 10 mpg in the city...but, what a fun drive it is.

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Moofie]

Engine out behind the back axle...God bless those wacky Germans.

How often do you change the radiator fluid? : )

Re:Symbian and Cabir Virus

[Anonymous Coward]

fuckin rednecks.

Fiat & Microsoft

[winkydink]

"We do know that car manufacturers are integrating existing operating systems into their onboard computers (take the Fiat and Microsoft deal, for instance)."

Proof that like seeks like when it comes to reliability.

Re:Fiat & Microsoft

[TAZ6416]

I own an Alfa Romeo 75, a FIAT 126 and run Windows XP so so I must be a real glutton for punishment :D BTW, in the UK, FIAT have teamed up with Microsoft to offer XBOX branded cars. http://www.fiat.co.uk/xbox Jonathan

Re:Fiat & Microsoft

[winkydink]

My past includes 4 124 Spiders. They're blessedly easy & cheap to fix, which is a good thing, because I frequently found myself doing just that.

Re:Fiat & Microsoft

[HungWeiLo]

My dad used to own one. Easy and cheap to fix is one thing. Having a fire extinguisher always handy is another!

Re:Fiat & Microsoft

[DrJimbo]

My dad used to own one. Easy and cheap to fix is one thing. Having a fire extinguisher always handy is another!

Fire extinguisher?

I knew that Microsoft OSes cause computers to crash but I didn't know it caused them to crash and burn.

Re:Fiat & Microsoft

[ultranova]

I knew that Microsoft OSes cause computers to crash but I didn't know it caused them to crash and burn.

Well, of course they do; why else would they need to be firewalled so badly ?

Re:Fiat & Microsoft

[AK Marc]

My past includes 4 124 Spiders.

4,124 Spiders is about the right number to keep around to make sure that any one of them works at any one time...

Re:Fiat & Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Your name is Tony, isn't it?

Re:Fiat & Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Every Fiat has a built-in fire extinguisher. You need to keep a gallon of water in the car in case the cooling system goes dry, or you need a drink while waiting for a friend to pick you up ( or a tow ) when the car is on the shoulder of the road. That water is also the fire extinguisher. Fiat's aren't British, so you don't have to worry about electrical fires ;)

Aeroplane!

[Le Marteau]

From the article:

"I've even seen screenshots of major commercial aeroplanes with Windows 2000-based operating systems

"Aeroplanes"

Adorable. Absolutely adorable. Where did they get this guy, from 1938? I think the last time I saw that word was in a Jules Verne novel or something.

Brits love spelling things like that as a way because they know how much it pisses Americans off.

But british men make me uncomfortable. They throw off my gaydar. I never can tell whether they are really, really British or just really, really gay.

He does work for a Finnish company, so that explains alot. Did you ever notice that there is no body more british than someone who USED to live in Britain?

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's funny because it's true.

Re:Aeroplane!

[tbase]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

shut the fuck up, you fucking asshole. go jackoff or something, and chill the fuck out.

Re:Aeroplane!

[FyRE666]

Now see here, you bloody colonial; we don't spell correctly, or use correct grammar to "piss you off", but rather because we prefer to use language as a form of civilised communication. One day perhaps you too can evolve and adopt this method of interaction, rather than stomping around the globe spreading violence, obesity, patents and litigation (I'm assuming you're American?)

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

shut the fuck up, you fucking asshole. go jackoff or something, and chill the fuck out.

Shouldn't you be using 'arsehole' and 'toss off'? You are obviously an offended brit.

Re:Aeroplane!

[AddressException]

Budget cutbacks have forced us to eliminate anything the least bit entertaining.

[long pause]

Well, uh, see ya.

Re:Aeroplane!

[moorcito]

Brits love spelling things like that as a way because they know how much it pisses Americans off.

This should read: We Americans intentionally changed the spelling of words after the Revolutionary War to distinguish ourselves from Britian.

Re:Aeroplane!

[Xenna]

Funny thing is 'Aeroplane' is exactly the kind of thing a non-native English speaker like myself could say. We may be able to pass for natives (if you can't hear our accents) but sometimes we betray ourselves by using slightly archaic words.

I remember saying 'thrice' to an American once. He thought I was quoting Shakespeare!

X.

Re:Aeroplane!

[SmokeHalo]

Shut yer pie hole, ya limey bastard, or I'll punch you in it with my fat fist and sue you when my hand gets broken.

C'mon, it's worth at least a +2, Funny...

Re:Aeroplane!

[flibuste]

Important instructions from John Cleese

To the citizens of the United States of America:

1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour', skipping the letter 'U' is nothing more than laziness on your part. Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. You will end your love affair with the letter 'Z' (pronounced 'zed' not 'zee') and the suffix "ize" will be replaced by the suffix "ise".

You will learn that the suffix 'burgh is pronounced 'burra' e.g. Edinburgh. You are welcome to respell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you can't cope with correct pronunciation. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communicat ion. Look up "interspersed". There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you shouldn't have chat shows. When you learn to develop your vocabulary then you won't have to use bad language as often.

2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of "-ize".

3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). You will also have to learn how to understand regional accents - Scottish dramas such as "Taggart" will no longer be broadcast with subtitles.

While we're talking about regions, you must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon". If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire, Floridashire, Louisianashire.

4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good guys. Hollywood will be required to cast English actors to play English characters. British sit-coms such as "Men Behaving Badly" or "Red Dwarf" will not be re-cast and watered down for a wishy-washy American audience who can't cope with the humour of occasional political incorrectness.

5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through.

6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game.

Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US Rugby sevens side by 2005. You should stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.15% of you are aware that there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders" which is baseball without fancy team strip, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.

7. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous in public than a v

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

One day perhaps you too can evolve and adopt this method of interaction, rather than stomping around the globe spreading violence, obesity, patents and litigation (I'm assuming you're American?)

Yes... the British never stoped around the globe spreading violence, obesity, patents, and litigation. The salt monopoly in India was just a figment of my imagination.

Re:Aeroplane!

[hambonewilkins]

Obesity? Looks like you guys have been throwing on the pounds while we've been trying to lose them!

http://www.nao.org.uk/pn/00-01/0001220.htm

Re:Aeroplane!

[ReverendLoki]

I'm confused... which side had the airplanes in the American Revolution again?

Re:Aeroplane!

[Tim C]

You're right - we didn't litigate, we just stomped on the natives until they gave up.

I refuse to be held responsible for actions commited before even my parents were alive. Furthermore, actions that my country commited in the past in no way excuse actions that your country commits now. "But they did it first!" is something most people grow out of around puberty.

Re:Aeroplane!

[i41Overlord]

So we changed the spelling of "aeroplane" after the revolutionary war to distinguish ourselves from Britian?

There weren't too many airplanes back then.

Why don't you see how the Wright Brothers spelled it? They invented the damn thing.

Re:Aeroplane!

[Coryoth]

He does work for a Finnish company, so that explains alot. Did you ever notice that there is no body more british than someone who USED to live in Britain?

So you're saying that someone with an obviously (to anyone who knows any Finnish) Finnish name Mikko Hyppönnen, who works for a Finnish company {is British/used to live in Britain} because he says "aeroplane"?

I mean, I know it was a troll, but try to do it with a little more class in future.

Jedidiah.

Re:Aeroplane!

[category_five]

Quite funny, however the UK has not dictated anything to the US since before WWII. It has been the other way around.

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell that to Leonardo da Vinci

Re:Aeroplane!

[illumin8]

I think you mean 59th floor apartment of the beast in your SIG.

Re:Aeroplane!

[i41Overlord]

Tell that to Leonardo da Vinci

I can't, he's no longer with us I'm afraid.

Besides, none of his aircraft designs worked. He had the imagination for sure, but he wasn't able to work out the specifics and get one to actually work.

Re:Aeroplane!

[moorcito]

So we changed the spelling of "aeroplane" after the revolutionary war to distinguish ourselves from Britian?

Given that "after the revolutionary war" means from the end of the war until present day, yes that's exactly what it means.

This from wikipedia: The first American dictionary was written by Noah Webster in 1828. At the time America was a relatively new country and Webster's particular contribution was to show that the region spoke a different dialect from Britain, and so he wrote a dictionary with many spellings differing from the standard. Many of these changes were initiated unilaterally by Webster.

More links if you want to ready more about the why:
American_English
American_and_British_English_differences
Basic Differences and Influences of Change

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wiki = bs.

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

Stomping on natives is interesting. How many people of India survived vs. how many native Americans? HARRR HARR India 1 billion, Indians half a million. Americans lose.

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right - we didn't litigate, we just stomped on the natives until they gave up.

Then bringing in British law and punishing the natives for mining salt all in the name of being civilized was also a figment of my imagination.

I refuse to be held responsible for actions commited before even my parents were alive.

You must be very young. The British left India in 1947.

Furthermore, actions that my country commited in the past in no way excuse actions that your country commits now. "But they did it first!" is something most people grow out of around puberty.

I make no excuse for my country nor do I claim one nation is more civilized then another (*cough* Tony Blair). But make no mistake... America learned how to be *civilized* from the best.

1. Claim you self as civilized.
2. Bring your concept civilization to uncivilized savages
3. Profit

Re:Aeroplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans lose.

Don't you mean Americans win natives lose?

So what?

[garcia]

It is understood the virus could affect the navigation system of the Lexus models, it transfers onto them via a Bluetooth mobile phone connection. It is still unclear whether the cars in question use the Symbian operating system which has recently been under attack from various worms and viruses.

This is a car that is full of wires and is basically a large chunk of metal. Explain to me why we are using Bluetooth instead of a wired solution. I don't see the advantages here. What I do see are large privacy implications and holes for infection... We are worried about RFID tags and readers installed along the highway? Why they don't even need to add the RFID tags to the wheels. Just have all the car's devices communicating through Bluetooth. The car owners think their sweet, overpriced, GPS navigation system is badass and the government gets to see where you were going, how fast you were going, and where you are going to. Perfect.

"I've even seen screenshots of major commercial aeroplanes with Windows 2000-based operating systems," said Mikko Hypponen, director of anti-virus research at Finnish firm F-Secure. "Cars are an obvious target for viruses. It's okay if you don't use the operating system for the engine and the brakes, but when you do..."

While Windows 2000 is adequate for my home computer to surf the web and read email (after proper precautions are taken) it is absolutely NOT adequate for flying an airplane. I am not worried about worms and viruses infected an airplane running Windows 2000 (and I'm not sure why it was mentioned in the article as it really isn't related) but I am worried about the stability of the OS and the implications it may have.

For now I'm sticking to my handheld GPS and windshield mounts. The only way it can be infected is if I sneeze on it and the only way that someone else could read it from 15 feet away would be with binoculars or a telephoto lens.

BTW, Bill Roehl is a known Saturn owner. He traded one in for another in 2002. That information is about as useful as knowing Bill Gates auctioned his 1999 (non BT equipped) Lexus off for charity.

Re:So what?

[PCM2]

This is a car that is full of wires and is basically a large chunk of metal. Explain to me why we are using Bluetooth instead of a wired solution. I don't see the advantages here.

The advantage is that the industry doesn't have to spend the next five years haggling over a wired communications standard for mobile phones. Instead they use Bluetooth, which is here right now. Using Bluetooth also means that handset manufacturers don't need to build more than one digital interface into their equipment. One of the devices people want to use with their handsets is a cordless headset, so manufacturers have to support that device. Why would they want to build in an entirely separate, wired interface for cars? (And why would you want to pay for them to do that?)

Re:So what?

[garcia]

Using Bluetooth also means that handset manufacturers don't need to build more than one digital interface into their equipment. One of the devices people want to use with their handsets is a cordless headset, so manufacturers have to support that device. Why would they want to build in an entirely separate, wired interface for cars? (And why would you want to pay for them to do that?)

I really don't know what you're talking about as it isn't related. Handsfree cell phone support via bluetooth in the car is one thing. Tying bluetooth to the navigation system is another.

Use bluetooth all you want to keep people from holding their phones and talking while driving and chewing gum. Keep it out of sensitive areas that are built into the car and are basically running whenever the car is on.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha Garcia, I just modded you Overrated. Oh noes, your precious Karma! Stupid karma whore.

Re:So what?

[ad0gg]

While Windows 2000 is adequate for my home computer to surf the web and read email (after proper precautions are taken) it is absolutely NOT adequate for flying an airplane. I am not worried about worms and viruses infected an airplane running Windows 2000 (and I'm not sure why it was mentioned in the article as it really isn't related) but I am worried about the stability of the OS and the implications it may have.

If win2k is used in airplanes today and there hasn't be any crashes or problems. Then it is suitable for airplanes. FAA would have a shit fit if computers were crashing on airplanes. Obviously they aren't.

And bluetooth for cars is for hands free cell operation. And if your concerned about having blue tooth in your car and getting tracked, you should be more concerned with cell phones that people carry everywhere. When on they are always broadcasting, eve if they don't have blue tooth.

Re:So what?

[afidel]

Not sure about this model but many cars have integrated stereo/navigation/cellphone systems so that the stereo can mute when a call is recieved or the voice navigation can play overtop the radio, etc. This is a usefull way to integrate technologies together to give a better user experience which also has the benifit of being more safe (no reaching for volume knobs!).

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I really don't know what you're talking about"

You also don't know what YOU are talking about. The navigation/stereo/climate control unit is a single unit in these cars. You can control this unit simply by talking to it. You talk to it to ask it for directions (navigation), and you talk to it to talk on your cellphone. When it does this, it cuts off the stereo and plays the incoming audio from your phone through the car speakers.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to point out that almost always "overrated" & "redundant" mods get shot down as SOP when I M2.

Re:So what?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

If win2k is used in airplanes today and there hasn't be any crashes or problems. Then it is suitable for airplanes.

If hydrogen is used in blimps today and there hasn't be any crashes or problems. Then it is suitable for blimps.

If fossil fuels are used in industry today and there hasn't be any cataclysm or mass die offs. Then it is suitable for industry.

If there has not been a major problem yet, then there never will be. Because logic tells me that anything that has not happened yet, never will.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Commercial aircraft do not operate in service with Windows. Windows is used, however, during new hardware and software testing. Typically, a PC will used to emulate the production hardware and run the modified software. The systems are routed through the Windows box as if it were the production hardware. Naturally, any display that runs through this hardware will show the Windows screens until the test software is run.

Once the new software or hardware is verified to work properly, the PC hardware is removed and actual production hardware is installed and re-tested.

Don't worry, that airliner that you flew on last week wasn't running Windows.

Re:So what?

[cheinonen]

Reasons why I might want Bluetooth in my car:

- When someone calls my cell phone, I can his a button to mute the stereo, answer the call, and use my car stereo (with a mic in the car) for taking the call so it doesn't distract me while driving.

- When Apple finally releases an iPod with Bluetooth, or something similar, just drop it into my car anywhere and start playing tracks off it like it was plugged in.

Those are two quick, easy reasons that I'd want bluetooth in my car, and I'm sure there are more.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this really insightful?

The Bluetooth in this car is to enable you to use your car's speakers (and the built-in mic) to have hands-free phone conversations using your existing Bluetooth-enabled phone.

Re:So what?

[PCM2]

I really don't know what you're talking about as it isn't related. Handsfree cell phone support via bluetooth in the car is one thing. Tying bluetooth to the navigation system is another. Use bluetooth all you want to keep people from holding their phones and talking while driving and chewing gum. Keep it out of sensitive areas that are built into the car and are basically running whenever the car is on.

Whoah, wait a minute. You sure you're not just freaking out over nothing? Just for reference: On a car, a "navigation system" does not mean "steering and brakes." I don't classify GPS as a "sensitive area" like anything to compare with the on-board computers on airplanes. It's a little gizmo that shows you maps.

The point about GPS is the same as the point about mobile phones. (And I was talking about phones because the quote you referenced from the article said that's how the system gets infected, not via GPS.) Why NOT build a system that can accept input from anything from a standalone GPS to an iPaq, without requiring some weird proprietary interface? You seem to think it's inherently worse for people to hold their phone while they chew gum and drive at the same time than it is for people to fiddle with a GPS receiver while they drive and chew gum. I kinda doubt you actually own one of these systems or you might have more of a clue about what it's there for.

Re:So what?

[Rorschach1]

Seriously, the FAA isn't that stupid. Go read DO-178B. Critical functions that could cause a catastrophic failure in the event of a malfunction are classified as Level A, and I only know of one off-the-shelf RTOS that's been submitted for approval. Submitted, not approved, last I heard. And an embedded RTOS is orders of magnitude smaller and easier to validate than something like Windows 2000.

Airliners are not being flown by Windows boxes. If there's anything in the cockpit running Windows, it would have to be non-critical, something that could fail and not cause immediate danger to passengers.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

While Windows 2000 is adequate for my home computer to surf the web and read email (after proper precautions are taken) it is absolutely NOT adequate for flying an airplane.

As I understand it, the Windows 2000 computers on existing airliners is used for things like running the inflight movie, tracking which passenger gets the kosher meal, etc. It's not being used for the flight control system, not only from a reliability standpoint, but also because it is not a "real time operating system", and thus is unsuited to fight control systems.

Re:So what?

[garcia]

It's a little gizmo that shows you maps.

You've never used a GPS obviously. A GPS is a little gizmo that records tracks of where you have been, has accurate speed information, gives a route of where you are going, and shows maps.

Information any number of people would be thrilled to have.

Re:So what?

[frankie]

integrate technologies together to give a better user experience which also has the benifit of being more safe

...Except when the Nav computer gets infected and 0WNZ0Red.

Re:So what?

[DrSkwid]

Do YOU know what a GPS is ?

Mine doesn't do any of those things except determine my latitude, longitude and altitude from some satellites. It doesn't even have a screen !!

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I own a Garmin GPSMap 76. I also owned a Garmin Etrex Vista. You were saying?

Re:So what?

[oobob]

While Windows 2000 is adequate for my home computer to surf the web and read email (after proper precautions are taken) it is absolutely NOT adequate for flying an airplane. I am not worried about worms and viruses infected an airplane running Windows 2000 (and I'm not sure why it was mentioned in the article as it really isn't related) but I am worried about the stability of the OS and the implications it may have.

Slashdotters, please, listen: Windows 2000 and XP are remarkably stable. My brother and I leave our computers on for months without problems. As much as it hurts to admit it, Win2k and XP are fine operating systems for reliable extended use if you can properly secure them (merits of opensource/personal preferences aside). Don't get me wrong - they certainly can be annoying, but they hardly crash. In fact, the FAA has been running computers on Windows for years now, including on Windows 95 (if my professor was correct, and he's pretty bright). They had recently tried to upgrade the systems, and one participant said "It may have been the greatest failure in the history of organized work." Click here for details.

The real problem with using Windows is that it becomes a security risk out of the box. Even if we ignore the massive amounts of exploits, it's far too used at this point, and it would be much easier for an attacker to start with all that background knowledge than to have to learn a proprietary system. I've had a lot of fun with the recent PCs that read blood pressure/customize teddy bears/etcetc with Win2k that stores have started to stock recently, but it is usually remarkably easy to get them to drop to the desktop - we all know how Windows works.

While that also applies to Linux (although to a much lesser extent), in Linux, anyone can fix a bug. In Windows, the inability to update the code is the worst part of using such an old system. What happens if stuff goes wrong? Can you wait for a bug fix? Using OSS software would alleviate many of the security problems and aid maintainability, which is what you should have said. Saying that you don't trust Windows 2000 not to crash is a nothing more than sharing a misinformed opinion about MS products, not debating technical merits. I enjoy Slack and SUSE as much as everyone else here, but I try and keep my emotions centered on people, not OSes.

Re:So what?

[damiangerous]

No version of Windows is FAA certified for flight control. There are some pieces of equipment like this that are certified as supplementary equipment, but they are just additional information sources for the pilot. Critical flight systems must be "DO-178B Level A" certified by the FAA. Most aircraft manufacturers develop their own, the only off the shelf certifed system is the INTEGRITY RTOS.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

First, what the hell is SOP? Second, you can't M2 Overrated mods, which is both a blessing and a curse. As for Redundant, I agree, I mod them all unfair as well. Same for most Flamebaits, which usually mean the moderator disagreed with the poster's opinion and wanted to punish them for it.

Re:So what?

[PCM2]

You've never used a GPS obviously. A GPS is a little gizmo that records tracks of where you have been, has accurate speed information, gives a route of where you are going, and shows maps. Information any number of people would be thrilled to have.

And that, my friend, is why we have Bluetooth interfaces in cars.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Standard Operating Procedure.

Re:So what?

[bromoseltzer]

We just bought an Acura TL, and Bluetooth for hands-free telephone was an attractive feature. This model does not have a GPS nav. system, but it does have audio response and it does show cell-related messages on the dash panel.

There are other digital inputs for the car. It has XM satellite radio. The XM stream has the ability to disable the radio. Don't know if it has a path into other vehicle systems.

Re:So what?

[tonyr60]

" Reasons why I might want Bluetooth in my car:

- When someone calls my cell phone, I can his a button to mute the stereo, answer the call, and use my car stereo (with a mic in the car) for taking the call so it doesn't distract me while driving."

Like this...
http://www.bmw.co.nz/content_accessories_cat.asp?i temID=305&CatID=21&ParentCatID=2

But how can I stop someone hijacking my phone etc. when I an stopped at the lights, or in a public car park etc. Have the vendors really sorted the security issues? I doubt it.

Re:So what?

[iMaple]

While Windows 2000 is adequate for my home computer to surf the web and read email (after proper precautions are taken) it is absolutely NOT adequate for flying an airplane. I am not worried about worms and viruses infected an airplane running Windows 2000 (and I'm not sure why it was mentioned in the article as it really isn't related) but I am worried about the stability of the OS and the implications it may have.

What the article forgot to mention was where in the plane Win 2000 was used. The thing is its used only in the new personal entertainment systems you see on new long distance flights which show movies on demand and have interactive games. Its has nothing to do with the navigational/operational software of the plane. In fact all planes have two totally different designed systems of ALL crital systems and if the systems disagree, the computer just trasfers control over to the pilot (it hasn't happened on any commercial flight as far as I know).

Th epoint is no one is dumb enough to use Windows (or any other general purpose OS) on critcal systems (or at least I hope so)

Re:So what?

[Just Some Guy]

Explain to me why we are using Bluetooth instead of a wired solution.

Because I don't want to run a switch off a power inverter (or pay $3799 for Lexus' own 2-port hub, if they made one) whenever I connect more than one device to the system.

Because I don't want to have to remember to plug my phone into the car before I start driving so that I don't get killed trying to do it on the freeway.

Because Bluetooth was designed for lower-power, low-speed, short-range networks, which pretty much exactly describes this situation.

Actually, this seems like the textbook application for Bluetooth, minus the whole "spreading viruses through my car" thing. BTW, who wants to be the first to make up a catchy new word to describe this? Eboladriving?

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

cool, i have a Honda Accord too. tee hee hee heee;)

Re:So what?

[HTH NE1]

...Except when the Nav computer gets infected and 0WNZ0Red.

It's not like the nav system actually drives the car:

"Get me to the hospital, Super-Pursuit Mode."
"I'm sorry, Michael, but I'm afraid I can't do that."
"Dammit! I knew I should have let Bonnie install that backup OnStar system!"

Re:So what?

[Just Some Guy]

Slashdotters, please, listen: Windows 2000 and XP are remarkably stable.

We'll listen, but we still won't believe you. Unless you mean "remarkable" literally and are saying that Windows's stability is worth commenting on; I can go along with that.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Panasonic Toughbooks are used on Airbus airplanes by at least one airline.

No indication from the article whether windows is used.

Quote from article:

... "enabling pilots to access information like aircraft thrust, temperature, wind, load calculation and other necessary trouble-shooting data."

Reference: http://www.ameinfo.com/news/Detailed/41012.html

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

While Windows 2000 is adequate for my home computer to surf the web and read email (after proper precautions are taken) it is absolutely NOT adequate for flying an airplane.

While there are no aircraft I am aware of that have their flight controls "controlled" by Windows, I am aware of at least one cockpit installed piece of avionics that does use Windows...

Garmin MX-20

It's called an MX-20, and it's an MFD (multifunction display) that runs off of Windows NT 4(SP5)... first time I ever saw one of these powered up, I saw the blue screen (not of death) with "Windows NT 4.0 Single Processor (Build whatever)" displayed as the device was booting.

It's updated from a PC, using a flash memory card. Could some type of malware get into it via that method? I don't know... Very cool piece of avionics though.

Re:So what?

[klui]

What's wrong with the 1/8" headphone/mic jack? Isn't that standard? What sucks about bluetooth headsets is you now need batteries for your headset.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fine, time to put it to the test. I would like to see you reliably run a Windows 2000 or XP box with no network connection and one reboot per day. The big catch is if you ever get a BSOD or similar failure, you have to kill yourself. Windows 2000 or XP might be fairly stable, but I doubt you are willing to bet your life on it.

Re:So what?

[spectral]

I was thinking about the iPod with Bluetooth. I own a Prius which uses a very similar system to the Lexus I believe (why not, same company..). I don't have a bluetooth phone, but I'm under the impression that it can sync in handsfree mode, or OBEX (to transfer schedule, phonebook). There's no profile to support streaming stereo sound to all the speakers, as far as I know. Based on the way the system acts when I have voice guidance enabled, I doubt that my phone conversation will come out of anything but the left speaker -- I don't think the nav/bt system is hooked up to anything other than that.

Re:So what?

[DrSkwid]

Cock waving which units you've had doesn't mask your ignorance.

• have maps in it
• tell you your heading
• tell you where you've been
• contain route information
• 
  
  • 
    
    GPS is a radio wave. Your receiver does the rest, calculating your distance from each of the satellites it receives said radio wave from. Anything else is provided by the capabilities of your receiver. In my case the facilities are as I specified. Long, lat, altitiude.
    
    

I always thought thoses Sybians were dirty.

[glrotate]

That they're spreading infection isn't too surprising. Who the heck drives around with one in their car though?

Re:I always thought thoses Sybians were dirty.

[garcia]

Uhh, the Bangbus guys who else?

Re:I always thought thoses Sybians were dirty.

[Anonymous Coward]

are you sure?

Serves you right

[sulli]

for driving one of these tech-encrusted things when a good old-fashioned CAR will do the job.

Re:Serves you right

[bill_mcgonigle]

Anybody have a recommendation for a car that's new enough that you can get parts for it, reliable enough that it's not a Yugo, but predates electronic controls such that it will still start after the EMP?

Re:Serves you right

[stupidfoo]

buy two old cars

It's like when you buy a old russian mig jet. You buy one to fly, and one for parts.

Re:Serves you right

[drinkypoo]

An oldish Mercedes Unimog will do the trick. The ultimate "survival" vehicle, it has six forward speeds, two reverse speeds, gets about 11 mpg freeway :) and is a diesel. Later but still early models have about 110hp and likely over 300 ft-lb. They were originally sold as a combo tractor and farm truck. I suggest buying two so you have one for parts. They came both as a 4x4 and a 6x6.

Re:Serves you right

[Anonymous Coward]

doesnt exist. emissions control laws that took effect in the 70s pretty much precluded decent engines until the late 80s, when the electronics finally got to the level where compliance was possible. Trust me: you do not want to tangle with the mechanical emissions control stuff on mid-70s cars. Anything prior to that is antique (thus pricey), and in high demand besides that because the race mechanics are fond of engines that dont suck.

buy a bicycle.

Re:Serves you right

[databyss]

Get an old jeep with a manual transmission. This way even if your ignition system is messed up (don't think an EMP would damage it though) you can push start it.

Re:Serves you right

[bbuR_bbuB]

Volvo 240/740 series of cars. Owner-servicable, SCADS of parts (Most 240 parts from the 70's on up to '92 are interchangable, same for 740), reliable as sin, and ugly, so no one will steal it. If you treat those machines with respect, you won't be able to kill them.

Re:Serves you right

[Datamonstar]

Yes, I do this. I am a automobile tinkerer and I have two old Mitsubishi Eclipses. I was initally drawn to the car because of the turbos, but I havelearned a lot from tinkering with the cars. I decided to keep them because I don't have to be at the mercy of a mechanic's computer just to fix minor problems that happen to a new car. And I DO have a new(er) car, too. My Eclipses are just toys for backup or leisure driving.
The engine is in a lot of cars, have been in production for 15 years and last well over 200k miles. I can think of three models from different manufacturers right off the top of my head, not to mention that the engines are in at least 3 different cars from mitsubishi. This means that I can get parts from just about anywhere if I look hard enough. It also makes them cheap.
Find a car like this that has a good, proven platform. Remember that every car has it's share of problems and "lemon" stories, and be willing to take a lot of time out to learn every nook and crannie of the car and you can have an automobile that dosent force you into the swift-moving auto industry fluff-tech.
The funniest thing is that I was abou to reccomend Toyotas, since they seem to ahve a good reliability record among mechanics I know, but then I realised that they amke Lexus.

Re:Serves you right

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? An EGR valve and an airpump? A 1983 K-car with essentially no electronic emissions on it, save the two parts I mentioned, would fit the bill. To be EMP proof though, you would have to go with an older diesel engine, one that is direct ignition (no glow plugs) You could easily find an old VW pickup that has no electronics on it, a diesel engine, and it will get 1,000,000+ miles on the engine before needing a rebuild.

Re:Serves you right

[Anonymous Coward]

You could try this one. Well, it actually has lots of electronics in it, but it should be sufficient EMP safe.

Re:Serves you right

[SoloTraveller]

Early to mid-90's Jeep Cherokees, 4.0 liter. :) Mine is reliable as hell, parts readily available, and isn't burdened with a bunch of electronic crap (except a stereo/CD player). And since it's a 4x4, it gets me places away from panzy-assed city drivers!! :)

Re:Serves you right

[Alien Being]

Pushing a car with a broken ignition just makes you tired.

Re:Serves you right

[budgenator]

The old jeeps M 151 and other gasoline engine military vehicle actualy had a shielded ignition system from the distributer to the spark plugs and coil; the engine would not only be shielded electricaly, but would run under-water with a snorkel kit for the carb.

Re:Serves you right

[whoever57]

Anybody have a recommendation for a car that's new enough that you can get parts for it, reliable enough that it's not a Yugo, but predates electronic controls such that it will still start after the EMP?

The trick is to buy a classic car. If in California, you should buy a '74 model or earlier (pre-emissions). There are lots of models to choose from. Many of the US-built cars from that era use parts that can be sourced from your neighborhood parts store (maybe even Autozone!) because the same parts were used on much later vehicles.

My (old British) car has at most one semiconductor device on it (there may be a diode in the fuel pump). I'm not worried about EMP! Parts are readily available, but it is not really the sort of car you need for long drives.

Re:Serves you right

[cayenne8]

"Anybody have a recommendation for a car that's new enough that you can get parts for it, reliable enough that it's not a Yugo, but predates electronic controls such that it will still start after the EMP?"

I've got a 1986 911 Turbo...plenty easy to get parts for, and if something breaks...pretty easy to find the mechanical problem and fix it. Cheap? No...but, easily fixable.

Re:Serves you right

[bob beta]

I bought a 1970 Chevrolet C10 Pickup Truck at an auction last Saturday. It has no electronics. It has some 'electrics' but no electronics.

There isn't a single thing needed to keep it running that I can't buy at a regular auto parts store.

Re:Serves you right

[Anonymous Coward]

Techfestation/feature bloat makes car costs skyrocket, but as a mechanic I have job security.
Like electronics? Want to have a job than cannot be outsourced?
Wrench and learn electrical and driveability diagnosis. ;)

Re:Serves you right

[Anonymous Coward]

w007! The Volvo 240 rules. How many cars do you know of in which you can remove ALL the fuses in the fusebox and still be able to start up the car? (So I've heard, as one of the few "important" fuses, for the fuel pump, is in the engine bay.)

Heck, some 240 parts interchange with 740 parts, and 740/760 items switch out with 940/960 parts. It's a whole family of vehicles that's all closely related over a span of more than 30 years.

Re:Serves you right

[Anonymous Coward]

"I've got a 1986 911 Turbo..."

Which is a Volkswagen Beetle, slightly longer, slightly flatter, slightly faster (both were designed by Ferdinand Porshe).

bluetooths mission statement

[greechneb]

Bluetooth SIG Mission Statement Develop, publish and promote the preferred short-range wireless specification for connecting mobile products, and to administer a qualification program that fosters interoperability for a positive user experience.

That definately show interoperability, but I have to wonder if the virus is bluetooth qualified?

Firefox is secure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah. All of you waffling on about "Microsoft never fixes their browser" can get a big bowl, pour all your words into it, and tuck in:

http://secunia.com/product/4227/#advisories

Six UNFIXED vulnerabilities dating back several months.

"oh but yeah but like microsofts are bigger and no but they suck and they make it all crap and they dont know how to program"

SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Firefox isn't something I'll be showing to my boss with a record like this. I don't give a shit about the usual anti-MS rhetoric - Firefox holes go unpatched, and that's that.

Re:Firefox is secure?

[Anonymous Coward]

pig fscker

Re:Firefox is secure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pig fucker, for pointing out a fact all the zealots ignore?

"yeah but like ms sucks dude and they cant program and their software is so buggy and insecure and they never fix it"

SIX UNPATCHED VULNERABILITIES, GOING ON MONTHS!

Better than Microsoft? Is it fuck.

Re:Firefox is secure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Firefox isn't something I'll be showing to my boss with a record like this.

No, no... you should tell him all about it. And make sure you shout profanities at him while you do so he clearly understands your point of view.

Re:Firefox is secure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, he'll probably just think like a load of people do:

"Advocates keep saying Firefox is secure. Yet is has many unfixed security holes. Can we trust open source apps in the future?"

It's baaaaad for the community's image.

Except, of course, that doesn't matter, "cos micro$oft sucks right"

Re:Firefox is secure?

[Anonymous Coward]

IE isn't bad either. It only has 60 total advisories (10 times what FF has) and 20 (33% of 60) UNFIXED vulnerabilities
http://secunia.com/product/11/

Keep on surfin' while you can, idiot!

Re:Firefox is secure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hah, you're the idiot. It's not "10 times" - IE has 20 UNFIXED, while Firefox has 6.

That's just over three times. Given the much, much wider userbase and - more crucially - the fact that IE has been out for far longer, it really does make Firefox look even worse.

So thanks for pointing that out!

Re:Firefox is secure?

[Anonymous Coward]

I like the cut of your jib, soldier. keep up the good work.

New excuse

[JavaNPerl]

... to be late for work, because the 'flat tire' excuse is so passe.

Re:New excuse

[Anonymous Coward]

The Phone call:

Mr. Johnson, (vroom-cough) My owner won't be in today because I caught (vroom-cough-hack) a nasty (vroom-cough) virus.

Re:New excuse

[MrRuslan]

Hehe that's a good one...But you can't use that if you are driving a 1969 ford Piska or something like that.I guess you can just put an lcd on the dashboard with a bluescreen on it and show it to your boss.

Re:New excuse

[Delta2.0]

My car's navigation system was telling me to go in circles.

First thing that popped into my head.

[KSobby]

Kitt: Michael. What are you doing? Stop ... Stop ... Daisy daisy. Tell me your answ ......

Re:First thing that popped into my head.

[DThorne]

NAV with your SUV, madam?

DT

Here is the bio on the Lasco virus writer

[EggMan2000]

This is the guy who wrote the Lasco variant and posted source code online: Marcos Velasco

Re:Here is the bio on the Lasco virus writer

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why OPEN SOURCE SUCKS! It empowers people living in third-world countries to gain FAME (not fortune) by engaging in unethical and possibly criminal activities (such as writing viruses, knocking-off commercial applications and then go crying that software patents are bad for innovation, outsourcing American/European jobs while lowering quality and decreasing the security of personal information and national security). It's not worth it boys and girls. Let's replace IPv4 (should have always been X.25) and the UNIX underpinnings (should have been VMS) with something more sophisticated (and closed source, without a good reason to obtain a license), keeping OPEN SOURCE (formerly Public Domain) code where it belongs --in the dorm rooms of underfunded public education.

We can do this without taking away your fun tools (Apache, PHP, etc..) because Apple and Microsoft get it and if their customers and the industrialized nations we have built rise up and complain, they can offer high-quality replacements as part of their base operating system distributions at no _additional_ charge.

Peer review. Fuhhhhhhhh.. Stupid kids raised in the shadow of communism look what you have done to the world.

Hmm...

[TubaJon]

I guess you could say that it's more than just a "Bug" on the windshield.

Re:Hmm...

[Classic Guy]

I can't wait for the "Honk if You've Got a Virus" virus!

Re:Hmm...

[Blakey Rat]

Who moderates this crap as funny? Criminy.

Favorite Quote

[cbelle13013]

"Last year the Slammer worm infected 13,000 Bank of America ATMs as a result of them moving to a Windows-based operating system."

Re:Favorite Quote

[Anonymous Coward]

SQLSlammer = someone created a virus from the unauthorized reverse engineering of Sybase's TDS protocol (aka FreeTDS). Hell, some released versions of FreeTDS will crash your SQL server too. Has nothing to do with Windows, except Microsoft licensed the source code from Sybase that was hacked by the maggot from Michigan who wrote FreeTDS and gave it to hackers like that guy in Brazil trying to make a name for himself at the world's expense.

Yet another reason to avoid Microsoft

[KiltedKnight]

With the huge proliferation of Windows viruses and worms, it's no surprise that a bluetooth-transmittable one is now available to infect your embedded devices in your major items.

Only this time, you don't have a reset button or three-fingered salute available to you to clean out the memory.

About the only advantage here is that unless someone is able to write to the flash ROM or BIOS or whatever they use to store settings, it should go away if you simply disconnect the battery, let it sit for a few minutes, then reconnect and restart... unless you need some kind of specialized tool that only the dealers will have.

Two words: Aegis Cruiser

Re:Yet another reason to avoid Microsoft

[conteXXt]

"Only this time, you don't have a reset button or three-fingered salute available to you to clean out the memory."

From what I have seen, most drivers use the "One fingured salute" mostly.

(Brits: that's 2 fingered for you)

Re:Yet another reason to avoid Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Explain to me how "huge proliferation of Windows viruses and worms" has anything to do with a Symbian virus?

Re:Yet another reason to avoid Microsoft

[twigles]

RTFA and you'll see a small problem with your conclusion. No one even mentions windows. Does MS suck? Yes. Is it their fault that someone at Lexus integrated Bluetooth into some cars in a vulnerable manner? No.

Seriously people, when you bash something based on flimsy evidence or logic your credibility *plummets*.

Re:Yet another reason to avoid Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Fricking Slashdotters, what part of this quote "Lexus cars may be vulnerable" = 'a bunch of computers are infected, please proceed to run around and panic.' ????

There was not infection, this is theoretical.

\professional AV expert

Re:Yet another reason to avoid Microsoft

[KiltedKnight]

Actually, they do:

Vulnerable operating systems are increasingly moving onto a number of different devices. Last year the Slammer worm infected 13,000 Bank of America ATMs as a result of them moving to a Windows-based operating system.

"I've even seen screenshots of major commercial aeroplanes with Windows 2000-based operating systems," said Mikko Hypponen, director of anti-virus research at Finnish firm F-Secure. "Cars are an obvious target for viruses. It's okay if you don't use the operating system for the engine and the brakes, but when you do..."

Besides, here's a couple of other things, including a press release from Microsoft about how the BMW 7 series has WinCE as its embedded system, and a discussion on some of its failures. Old news? Maybe. Still an extremely likely connection.

Re:Yet another reason to avoid Microsoft

[twigles]

Yes sloppy wording on my part. MS has nothing to do with Lexus yet. Just some silly, ominous overtones set by an AVS researcher (questionable motives alert!) and an example of what *might* happen based on an entirely different industry's experience.

I HATE defending MS, but we need to be a lot more conservative in our rush to pummel them. Not only has no one established causality here, no one has even established a link! Looks like MS was only included to take a cheap shot.

Doubtful

[pploco]

I rather doubt the OS in the vehicle is covering critical components such as breaking. The thought of a mobile virus is disturbing though.

Re:Doubtful

[Evil W1zard]

I wonder if it could affect critical systems because wouldn't certain systems like traction control or anti-lock breaking use an OS of some sort. Now the question is would it be an integrated OS that is used by multiple systems. I would hope it is not like that but personally I have no idea. I think the thought is scary though.

Re:Doubtful

[eln]

I rather doubt the OS in the vehicle is covering critical components such as breaking.

Sounds like the OS is breaking to me...

Re:Doubtful

[Ced_Ex]

"I rather doubt the OS in the vehicle is covering critical components such as breaking."

"Breaking"? Who wants a car that can break?

Re:Doubtful

[Hellasboy]

Critical components are not controlled through the OS. They are controlled by a dual cpu ecu module. The OS only runs things like the climate control, radio, and navigation.

No car manufacturer is dumb enough to have critical components controlled via an OS. Even BMW with their "intuitive" I-Drive (which is much much more pervasive in OS-Car dynamics) doesn't do this.

Re:Doubtful

[gl4ss]

mobile virus is constrained to local machines, internet worms spread to the whole damn globe. but it's more of a 'malicious program' than a true virus anyways.

it just wraps itself again in an installer and sends itself to anyone willing to accept it in the vicinity - the key word is willing to accept it.

I find it hard time believing that these actually propogate far in the wild - they're mainly being spread by warez boards.

Re:Doubtful

[ad0gg]

Lot of times the HVAC,NAV, Entertainment will share the same computer/board. Problems with the computer/board, can cause the HVAC to stop working which may seem annoying but can be dangerous especially when condensation forms on the inside of the windshield.

Re:Doubtful

[ad0gg]

it just wraps itself again in an installer and sends itself to anyone willing to accept it in the vicinity - the key word is willing to accept it.

If we look at email worms today, they spread by users clicking on attachments. End users will click on anything and it is problem. Obviously its a problem for cars since people are getting their cars infected hence it made the news.

As long as there's ignorant users, there's always a need for antivirus software. People like to open things.

Re:Doubtful

[gl4ss]

I bet you a hundred bucks that the car itself isn't getting "infected" as truely. maybe it gets the files into it's inbox, but that's like saying unix machines get infected by windows worms if they arrive by mail.

cars of today

[Anonymous Coward]

cars of today are too complicated...

i miss the days when a automobile was just a riding lawnmower with a windshield...

Like I care?

[AddressException]

Get the facts muthafucka!

Re:Like I care?

[Anonymous Coward]

No shit!

One day there'll be a drive-thru, MS-based lobotomizer where we can all "get the facts" on our new MS overlords!

Re:Like I care?

[Anonymous Coward]

For the idiot mods, this is one of the banner ads that appears at the top of this page... it's a joke!!!

Here it is folks!

[DrDebug]

The first incidence of a drive-by virus!

Re:Here it is folks!

[Bagels]

Sounds funny, but that's actually quite possible, in the sense of "war-drive-by virus." I can imagine somebody crafting trojans that adapt to mimic and replace files found on unsecured wifi networks.

Re:Here it is folks!

[DigiShaman]

Just be sure to get the new 2005 Norton Anti-Virus Auto edition. New feature include...

1. Supports all make a model cars that are OB2 compliant.

2. Realtime scanning and Bluetooth port blocking.

3. Auto update feature provided by On-Star network.

*slap* Naaaa...it couldn't happen. It's just a bad dream.

Ideas for automotive pranks

[Chairboy]

Using the code to inspire a car to:
- Flash obscene messages in morse code through the brake light
- Warn of imminent empty tank, then say 'Just kidding' on the information center display.
- Mess with the volume of the radio subtly, if it uses CANbus.
- Lock the doors while playing a WAV of cackling laughter through the NAV system's audio interface.

If you avoid the obvious 'rofl make teh car crash like windows lololololol omfg' ideas, there should be lots of fun things you could do with the security hole this virus uses.

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[Dr Caleb]

You are evil! Can I play?

- When the driver activates the A/C, roll down the windows instead.
- Scroll fake (read: *bad* - "IBM \/ 25 1/2") stock quotes over the internal DVD screens.
- At random intervals, from a dead stop, refuse the transmission permission to leave 1st gear.

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[Anonymous Coward]

Mess with the volume of the radio subtly, if it uses CANbus.

I have been using CAN'bus for a while now and I don't know if I'm just being paranoid or what, but the volume of my music changes subtly all the time.

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[ForestGrump]

you probably have the radio set to change increase/decrease volume based on speed.

I do, and I like it that way.

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[refactored]

Here's one that dates back to WWII.

On long downhills leave vehicle in gear, switch off engine, pump gas for awhile, switch on, BANG!

Exhaust fumes ignite explosively.

Tends to amaze followers when large chunks of the silencer come shooting out at them.

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[Lord Kano]

Let me get in on this.

-Add a two second delay before every honk of the horn.
-Reverse the turn signals.
-Slowly, gradually move the driver's seat back.
-Whenever the driver activates the AC, turn on the seat warmer.

LK

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[Cecil]

At random intervals, from a dead stop, refuse the transmission permission to leave 1st gear.

Pfft, you talk like this is innovative. My friend's van already has this feature, and it's 15 years old!

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[Cocoronixx]

Hrm... When I use the CAN'bus, I do get paranoid, but I've never had the volume of music change, allthough, music generally sounds better when I'm on it.

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[Anonymous Coward]

I don' tthink that would work on modern cars like this because with the engine shut off, the fuel injection not pass fuel to the engine, causing that trick not to work?

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[Anonymous Coward]

depends on the auto. my ford escape specifically warns not to leave the truck in gear, because the fuel pump is coupled to the drivetrain.

Re:Ideas for automotive pranks

[refactored]

I can report it worked spectacularly on a Isuzu utility ten years ago.

Hmm. Depends, the topic is super modern computerised everything cars. It depends on how many computers they have in there. If it is one computer controlling everything, including fuel injection, then fun-fun-fun. If each subsystem has an independent computer, well, it might a tad hard.

Hmm, gives rise to another idea. If the computer does control the fuel injection, how about making the average amount of fuel injected as requested, but make the instantaneous flow fluctuate.

How long before occupants get sea sick?

Ah - "her" car maybe?

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

I always thought thoses Sybians were dirty. That they're spreading infection isn't too surprising. Who the heck drives around with one in their car though?

I hope you meant to say: Who the heck drives around with one in her car though?

Re:Ah - "her" car maybe?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its 2005 it could be a guy .....

Re:Ah - "her" car maybe?

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd be surprised, they make great chick magnets and its fun to watch them being used.

Just don't drive around elementary schools.

Re:Ah - "her" car maybe?

[bob beta]

There's a male attachment, too.

Re:Ah - "her" car maybe?

[trouser]

knowing that automatically makes you guy. Sorry.

Re:Ah - "her" car maybe?

[trouser]

Aahhhaaahhahahhhh, I speling mistake.

Knowing that automatically makes you gay.

not to sound like a mac/linux zealot, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

how many lexus cars are there that can be infected like reported? i realize if something can be infected, someone will try to infect, but there can't be that many lexus' out there.

a common counter to mac and linux's lack of exploits is that it's not worth infectors' time, that windows' ubiquity makes it the favorite target and that mac/linux's lack of exploits is not necessarily due to their inherent superiority in design.

well, if lexus cars, which must number far fewer than mac/linux computers and can only be infected from close physical proximity (much less convenient than attacking over the network), are targeted for infection, what gives?

Re:not to sound like a mac/linux zealot, but...

[Low2000]

It's probably jus that since Lexus is generaly a higher end car, a higher percentage of theirs vehciles sold now may have navigation systems. I've got no raw numbers to back me up, but it seems likely.

Biting + Sucking + Rocking = Disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

Bluetooth bites! Windows sucks! Lexus rocks! Bad combo man!

Time to head to Costco

[Tenebrious1]

and buy tin foil in bulk, it's gonna take a lot to protect my car...

Seriously, can the infected car infect another car that's sitting next to it at a stop light? Or people who are walking by it in the crosswalk?

No Lexus for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing I am an open source developer and can't afford Lexi. Kia Rio is pretty good for me, thank you very much.

But I can now laugh at my former boss, who uses Windows every day and drives Lexus to work. Another bad day for him, haha.

AHA!

[jsidious]

Perhaps this could explain why Lexus owners can't drive!

is onstar next?

[Captain BooBoo]

well if the virus can infect the cars "operating system" what would stop it from trying to get into the onstar system? It would be pretty nasty to have your car get turned off remotely while driving.

Are militaries retarded enough

[NeMon'ess]

To eventually use computer hardware and software that's too well known and vulnerable? It's the Praetorians from The Net. They want to get their Gatekeeper software onto all military hardware.

Re:Are militaries retarded enough

[RoboRay]

I'll never forget the first time I walked into a US Navy patrol aircraft and saw a Windows 2000 desktop at several of the crew stations. I had nightmares for weeks.

not to be confused with

[ats-tech]

running a sybian /funny

IMO anything with a Blue Tooth

[Anonymous Coward]

is going to cause infection.

Whistles...

[flibuste]

Ah great! I was actually wondering what Kapersky would find as a new whistleblowing topic for this month.

Not a bad one this Lexus thing. And he AGAIN got the Slashdot attention. And AGAIN more publicity, although I have yet to hear anything from Kapersky that would be of any real interest.

In Soviet Russia, Kapersky OWNS Slashdot. But well...nevermind, he's an insensitive clod.

Re:Whistles...

[Disperz]

...you mean KaSpersky? http://www.kaspersky.com/

Please God

[theolein]

From TFA "I've even seen screenshots of major commercial aeroplanes with Windows 2000-based operating systems,"
Please tell me this is not true.

Re:Please God

[iMaple]

Its true BUT Dont Panic.
The thing is its used only in the new personal entertainment systems you see on new long distance flights which show movies on demand and have interactive games. Its has nothing to do with the navigational/operational software of the plane. In fact all planes have two totally different designed systems of ALL crital systems and if the systems disagree, the computer just trasfers control over to the pilot (it hasn't happened on any commercial flight as far as I know). The point is no one is dumb enough to use Windows (or any other general purpose OS) on critcal systems (or at least I hope so)

ob luddite post

[Thud457]

Get a horse!

Aircraft and Windows

[AB3A]

"I've even seen screenshots of major commercial aeroplanes with Windows 2000-based operating systems," said Mikko Hypponen, director of anti-virus research at Finnish firm F-Secure.

Calm down folks. I've seen plenty of cool looking computers built in to aircraft instrument panels. Yes, some of them run Windows.

First, you can be assured that they only update via a firmware media card such as SDRAM. Nobody's going to point a Bluetooth antenna at an airplane and knock it out of the sky.

Second, of the gripes that most of you have about Windows, the majority and the most egregious behaviors have to do with what happens when you network these things to insecure places. Windows has actually become quite stable in the last few releases. In a stand-alone configuration these systems are fairly reliable platforms.

Third, most pilots rarely get in to the down and dirty features of their displays. They don't have the time, nor do most of them care enough to learn any more than they need to get the airplane safely from point A to point B. You can say one thing for certain about Windows: the path is well worn. As long as you are doing relatively conventional stuff, it will serve you well.

Fourth, these are just navigation boxes. There are backup instruments. If a navigation computer dies, there will be other resources to navigate with. There are very few things in the panel of the airplane which do not have a backup of some sort --particularly where the avionics stack is concerned.

I say this as one who really doesn't like using or programming with Windows. Like any tool, it has its flaws; though when properly used, it can be quite safe.

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[xinn]

Windows has actually become quite stable in the last few releases. In a stand-alone configuration these systems are fairly reliable platforms.

I want my doctors, my airplanes, and my iron lungs to be more than fairly reliable.

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[BCW2]

Windows has always been very secure in it's original intended environment. Attached to nothing but a power source and a printer. It is when it is allowed to communicate with other computers that security is completely lost.

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Any OS created can crash. Windows does not corner that market alone...well, ok, it gets an honorable mention...

Bell Expressview PVR's do a great job crashing without help from Microsoft.

Nothing made by human kind is infallible.

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing made by human kind is infallible.

I was made by humans, and I'm infallible. Sorry to have to prove you wrong.

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[minkie]

First, you can be assured that they only update via a firmware media card such as SDRAM.

You can be assured, I'd rather be scared. The new Garmin G1000 (http://www.garmin.com/products/g1000/) include an infra-red programming port.

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[Trespass]

You seem to have created a nice little Zen Koan about discourse on Slashdot. :)

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[ePhil_One]

Third, most pilots rarely get in to the down and dirty features of their displays.

Choose your response:

That's Disgusting!

They have a word for those pilots; fired.

Your answer here

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[Spoing]

1. Calm down folks. I've seen plenty of cool looking computers built in to aircraft instrument panels. Yes, some of them run Windows.

Well, that explains why the Cylons did so well.

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Its sad but true. My dad used to fly a Cessna Citation II that was "upgraded" with such a monstrosity, I can't remember the name of it right now. Basically it was a sbc in a box with an lcd screen mounted in on the instrument panel. It was the funniest damn thing when it turned on. First the usual Award BIOS screen, followed by the old NT 4 boot-up bluescreen. You even had to 'shutdown', before powering off, so you didn't corrupt the FS on the HARD DRIVE. Thankfully for my dad and those on the ground, all it did was plot your course on a moving map. It got gps data from another (non windows) nav box, probably through a RS232 connection. The other funny thing about it was how you installed 'updates' to the map data. Every couple of months the company would send you a cd that you stuck into the front of the unit. There is still a pile of them at my dads house. I remember popping one into my computer. The disc contained, and I shit you not, a bunch of *.xls and *.mdb files!!

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[quarkscat]

Okay, so a MSFT Windows computer mounted in the
cockpit of a commercial airplane DOESN'T concern
you?

Boeing is starting the roll-out of wireless
internet access (satellite) on some of their
aircraft in 2005. And those pilots sitting
behind LOCKED cockpit doors WILL NOT be
surfing the internet for p0rn, you say?

Right-'O!

And when that computer gets a nasty virus, the
BSOD will not affect any aircraft operations?

Think I will stay away from any of these new
autos (Lexus & BMW come to mind), as well as
commercial aircraft ...

Re:Aircraft and Windows

[tgrigsby]

Calm down folks. I've seen plenty of cool looking computers built in to aircraft instrument panels. Yes, some of them run Windows.

Third, most pilots... don't have the time, nor do most of them care enough to learn any more than they need to get the airplane safely from point A to point B.

That's a relief. Because I could have sworn I saw the pilot practicing the landing by playing Flight Commander on the little screen running Windows and using the actual controls as a joystick. A Blue Screen Of Death at that exact moment would have been most unsettling...

mod do9wn

[Anonymous Coward]

Corpse tu8ned ,over

ITS THE CYLONS!!!!

[jzarling]

The machines are rising. Turning on thier masters!!

Re:ITS THE CYLONS!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The mods will be with you shortly. Please have a seat while your waiting. Thank you.

Battlestar Galactica

[Anonymous Coward]

In an interview with Commander Adama, he was quoted as saying, "See? See why we removed the computers from every single piece of technology we'd crammed them into over the years? It was either low-tech or 0wned."

The Cylons were unavailable for comment.

Better colours

[Anonymous Coward]

http://shit.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/26/1 88224

Not so Doubtful

[endoboy]

ever heard of traction control??

Well how STUPID

[tjlsmith]

Bluetooth is a known security nightmare. It was BORN BAD. After all the experience with hackers and worms etc the industry learned NOTHING.

Bluetooth HAS to have streaming crypto and verification ala Bruce Schneier's Helix.

The fact that it hasn't is CRIMINALLY IRRESPONSIBLE and typical of an industry that just doesn't get it.

Re:Well how STUPID

[pla]

The fact that it hasn't is CRIMINALLY IRRESPONSIBLE and typical of an industry that just doesn't get it.

Er... No. Bluetooth more-or-less works as intended. Short-range RF-based communication. Check.

The "criminally irresponsible" part comes from automobile designers (or cell-phone designers, or PDA designers, etc) allowing a possibly untrusted source of input to do anything to onboard computers.


As an aside, to those who've mentioned that, at "worst" an attacker could mess with the climate control system - Consider that from the POV of someone in a cold environment (such as New England today)... Wait for the car to get nice and toasty, put the air on recirc, and direct mildly warm air toward the floor. Watch some poor bastard crash when his windows become opaque from fogging over as he beats the hell out of his console trying desperately to get the defroster to work.

In unrelated news...

[Harry Balls]

...street gangs have been reported to tote Bluetooth-enabled notebook computers instead of firearms.

Re:In unrelated news...

[game kid]

...street gangs have been reported to tote Bluetooth-enabled notebook computers instead of firearms.

*makes feature request to Rockstar Games*

But is it "Mission-Critical"?

[cliffiecee]

I've even seen screenshots of major commercial aeroplanes with Windows 2000-based operating systems

He's (probably) talking about in the cabin. If that's the case, so what? Worst case: passengers can't watch the inflight movie. (I might even be grateful for that)

Cars are an obvious target for viruses. It's okay if you don't use the operating system for the engine and the brakes, but when you do...

... but we don't. This is the Navigational System- and it isn't clear that it was adversely affected by the virus! I'm glad they caught this now, BEFORE it caused major problems.

One of the BIG things drummed into me during flight training was: fly the airplane. It doesn't matter if the nav systems are acting up. The same applies to automobiles. (Though I'm sure there will be accidents "caused" by crashed Nav. systems)

Bill Gates is a known Lexus driver. In 1999 he auctioned one for charity.

I can't decide if this a non-sequitir, or a wonderfully subversive way to relate insecurity and viruses with Microsoft/Bill Gates.

Re:But is it "Mission-Critical"?

[y00nix]

your last comment is axiomatically a non-sequitur (please note my spelling correction.) There is in fact a perfectly logical connection with insecurity/viruses and Microsoft-related products, so please don't be negligently subversive with your statements.

Re:But is it "Mission-Critical"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apropos >>accidents "caused" by [...] nav systems : my sisters works at a logistics company, and one of their drivers *turned* right on the freeway in Italy because his nav system told him he missed the exit an needed to turn.... right in front of the police. They needed a week to get him out of jail. The guy probably did the Hamburg-Sizilia route without sleep :-)

New terrorist weapon?

[SmokeHalo]

I hope they sort this out before al-Qaeda learns how to remote-carjack these vehicles...

Volkswagen type 1

[SweetAndSourJesus]

1966-68 or so.

They're entirely mechanical, the aftermarket is huge, and they're fairly reliable.

Re:Volkswagen type 1

[bill_mcgonigle]

That seems like the right answer. Thanks.

Re:Volkswagen type 1

[UBP_Sanity]

A Type 1? AKA Beetle, Bug, etc...?

Re:Volkswagen type 1

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical. Nobody bitches about Hitler's instruction that Ferdi Porsche make a car for everyone, all you hear is "invaded Poland" this and "Holocaust" that...

Lexus != Phone

[GoatSucker]

"It's still unclear whether or not the computers run Symbian."

Does 'timothy' have a disability that makes their car look like a mobile phone? Symbian is a mobile phone OS. It does not get put into cars.
Granted, there is a very tenuous link in the article between two completely different products both being compromised via Bluetooth, but that does not automatically mean they are the same.
It would be just as valid to suggest that the car runs Linux, because it's possible to transfer a trojan app between two Linux machines via Bluetooth.

Re:Lexus != Phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Again hth do you transfer a trojan under a root locked system. If the OS that they are running is not locked then catching a worm or trojan would make sense, how the hell does someone do something so stupid as to create an os that automatically executes and saves code other than core ops. OOPs what am I saying.......activeX etc etc etc..

Get the facts

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Windows XP is the most secure and versatile operating system ever.

Re:Get the facts

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill? Why are you trolling /.?

Re:Get the facts

[winkydink]

I never said it wasn't. My claim was about relability. :)

"sybian /funny"?

[game kid]

sybian /funny

Sex toys that take command-line arguments? Try sybian /fast /strong and tell us how that experience went.

Re:"sybian /funny"?

[ats-tech]

forgetting linebreaks is a bitch

If it was windows

[Anonymous Coward]

If it was running Windows instead, there'd be a pithy comment on the front page and then a couple dozen responses blasting the idiocy of trusting Microsoft.

Re:If it was windows

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read other responses, you will see that in fact despite being non Windows related, they have figured out many ways to troll their anti-MS semantic

Symbian?

[Fizzl]

Whether it runs Symbian is irrelevant.
No, wait. No it's not. There still doesn't exists a single Symbian VIRUS which could SELF-REPLICATE. Because it should be impossible.

If a phone asks you:
a) Random guy is sending you a file, do you want to receive it?
b) This file is an installable application with name XYZ, would you like to install it?
c) The origin of this application could not be verified, unless you trust the source, it is not recommended to install it. Would you like to install it anyway?
d) Application XYZ want's to use bluetooth interface, do you allow this?
Do you answer YES to each of these questions?
I wouldn't.

Anyway, if this one truely replicates without user intervention, there must exists a way to execute the code. What is the normal way to achieve this on PC? Stack/buffer flaw within a privileged process.
Now, I'm going to say something which will come and bite me in the ass: There is no way to execute code 'accidentally' in Symbian.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be most interested in how it is done...

Sorry about my pompous attitude. I'm sure someone will figure something out in the future, but right now, is there a way?

Re:Symbian?

[wk633]

Symantics:

Self replicating Viruses are called Worms. Viruses, by definition, require stupid-human intervention.

Re:Symbian?

[Talsin]

You might not answer yes to that, as you seem to have some common sense. The users I support at work are a different breed, they would glady double click a land-mine just to see what happens.

Re:Symbian?

[Fizzl]

Hmm, actually I think there should be a third name for todays gizmos which silly users click because they promise porn, or whatever.
I think originally the term virus was coined because of their way of infecting a binary/media. For executables, the usual way to attach itself to something was to hi-jack the initialization part of the executable and use it to wrap self around the real executable. Pretty much same for media -- Replace bootsector with self, re-locate old bootsector. You really could see the analogy of viral behaviour.
I think I just hate using the term virus for these new things because they are terribly unclever compared to the old way of infection. *shrug*

The car wasn't really infected by a virus

[daveo0331]

That's just the story the guy came up with when the cop asked him why he was going 80 in a 55 zone.

Re:The car wasn't really infected by a virus

[ross.w]

He could have said, "But officer, I thought my car had a metric speedo"

Happens here in Oz ometimes with people buying old cars with MPH speedos, then going 60 because the sign says 60.

Re:The car wasn't really infected by a virus

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, and I thought it was bad when overlarge people try to wear Speedos!

Lexus LX

[Anonymous Coward]

i always thought these were pretty fancy autos, i was looking at the photo gallery of the LX interier and it still has a friggin casette player when decent autos come with atleast cd players...

Re:Lexus LX

[Anonymous Coward]

the default configuration is a six-CD unit; the nav system is an upgrade. don't know what you were looking at

Sensationalist crap

[ecki]

Regarding the question whether Symbian is involved: Here's some money for you to make... Load up your phone with all Symbian "viruses" that are out there and see if you can make the challenge!

eeeek

[drinkypoo]

Sorry for botching my /strong tag. My bad.

Re:eeeek

[Radar|TGS]

Strong Bad strikes again.

Re:eeeek

[Anonymous Coward]

retard

Worst case?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's (probably) talking about in the cabin. If that's the case, so what? Worst case: passengers can't watch the inflight movie. (I might even be grateful for that)

Worst case? Try the Inescapable Giant Goatse at 30,000 feet!

Does any plane really have enough bags to handle the aftermath?

Re:Worst case?

[Anonymous Coward]

"That happened to me too!"

sheesh ..

[torpor]

.. more cheesy 80's cyberjunk predictions come to fruition.

cars, with computer viruses. man.

wait, i know whats next, don't tell me, don't tell me ... Space Aliens!!!

Re:sheesh ..

[TommydCat]

wait, i know whats next, don't tell me, don't tell me ... Space Aliens!!!

But then we can send Jeff Goldblum up to the spaceship in a JATO-rocket strapped Lexus to do in the baddies!

Re:sheesh ..

[Anonymous Coward]

wait, i know whats next, don't tell me, don't tell me ... Space Aliens!!!

Well, I know you're joking, but.... this chatroom I was in yesterday. There was this user who said he was an alien, and they are currently enroute, will be here soon, and there are others races coming too. How was the link established? I'm guessing a telepathic link to a real flesh & blood human channeling and typing on his behalf. Is such a thing possible or is someone just pulling my leg?

Before you laugh it off, I'd say look who is president and what fox news says about reality. you know they're full of shit. so even though saying this guy was full of shit is the simplest solution. my suggestion is that since the truth has been so badly mischaracterized to us, maybe something this crazy is not so crazy after all and it could be in the realm of possibility.

okay, I guess I'm bored and just wanted to play with the idea. Carry on.

PS: You remember NASA's space probe mission to comet Tempel 1 that was recently launched? He claims that 1 week before it 'lands' on the comet, that NASA will lose contact with the probe, CNN will cover it. IIRC the mission date is July 4, which places contact loss at approx. June 27th? Now won't it be spooky if this actually happens? :)

Re:sheesh ..

[torpor]

the truth has been so badly mischaracterized to us, maybe something this crazy is not so crazy after all and it could be in the realm of possibility.


yeah. thats really the point. we've had the psycho-disorder american fascist dictatorship which everyone said "was just a nutjob conspiracy theory", so i say "bring on the aliens", baby..

of course, i wouldn't expect them to be happy with us, or peaceful. but i do expect us to kick their asses and eventually make peace.

and when that happens, you can be for damned sure i'm gonna save my moolah for a starbucks franchise on their planet, heh heh ...

Impact of the infection

[Linker3000]

I understand that whenever you try and drive your car to a legitimate Lexus service centre, the virus redirects you to that dodgy body shop by the river.

Bluetooth has authentication.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're mistaken. Go read up.

Streaming crypto might be a good idea except Bluetooth was designd to be simple and low power, and crypto doesn't fit that bill.

Just because a Windows machine can be infected doesn't mean TCP/IP is born bad. Sybian is a bad implementation.

Learn.

I hope Lil Jon doesn't drive a Lexus...

[game kid]

...because all those WHAT s you'd hear would not be from his new album.

Re:I hope Lil Jon doesn't drive a Lexus...

[Anonymous Coward]

That was one of the worst jokes I've ever heard. Congratulations :)

Additional details

[Phil Wherry]

I'm a little suspicious of this story.

I drive an LS430. The navigation system, phone, audio system, and air conditioning control system are driven by a system made by Denso. I can't say with certainty what operating system it's running, but it looks like an evolution of a design they've had going since at least 1998.

The Bluetooth interface is rather limited. You can use the hands-free capability after pairing it with your phone. You can transfer a phonebook using the OBEX profile. To my knowledge, none of the other Bluetooth profiles are supported--most notably the Object Push Protocol (OPP). In order to get OBEX phonebook transfers to work, you have to put the car phone system into a special mode; it won't just blindly accept transfers--even from paired devices. If this system is running Symbian and is really vulnerable, I wonder if it manifests itself only when attempting to transfer phonebook entries from an infected device.

The same navigation system is used in a number of cars beyond the Lexus LS430 and LX470. The SC430, GX430, and RX330 use the same Bluetooth system, as does Toyota's Land Cruiser and Prius.

Phil

Re:Additional details

[Anonymous Coward]

perhaps it looks normal to you because you are pwn3d

Better still...

[jabber01]

Say you're chatting on the phone at the mall, and some phr33k injects the virus into your BT phone. You head home, and the virus hops into your car on startup. Then, as you're passing this 5Kr1p7 K1dd13'5 ex-girlfriend's exit the virus notices this on your GPS and disables your car. Maybe by cutting off fuel injection, forcing you to coast to the side of the road.

As you sit there trying to get it going again, every car that passes you is infected.

It's a brilliant DDoS. Sort of like having a bunch of pizzas delivered to her house, only the punk closed down the highway.

Symbian != Phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Symbian OS is an embbeded operating system usually used for cell phones. Its an updated and renamed version of the Epoc32 os which has been used in handheld and palmtop computers.

airplanes, aeroplanes

[i41Overlord]

I was not arguing that Americans changed the spelling of many English words. I agree with that.

I was arguing that the airplane was invented in the US, and that the inventors get to name their invention what they want.

But as I looked up the links, I only became more confused. The Wright brothers called their airplane an "aeroplane", so I don't know why we'd change the spelling of that, since even the original american inventors spelled it differently.

Re:airplanes, aeroplanes

[moorcito]

I was not arguing that Americans changed the spelling of many English words. I agree with that. Sorry, I miss understood your post. I would have to say that aeroplane => airplane would just be more dumming down of our american vocabulary. ;)

Re:airplanes, aeroplanes

[good soldier svejk]

I was arguing that the airplane was invented in the US, and that the inventors get to name their invention what they want.

I guess that depends on what you mean by invented the aeroplane/airplane. The first powered flight of a heavier than air aircraft took place in France in 1890. The designer and pilot was Clement Ader. He flew 160 feet at an altitude of about eight inches. The major contributions of the Wright Brothers were the internal combustion engine and comprehensive controls, which greatly increased the range and practicality of the craft. However, it appears that Kiwi backyard hobbyist Richard Pearse bet them to the punch on those counts as well.

Re:airplanes, aeroplanes

[i41Overlord]

I don't see any kind of proof that Richard Pearse beat them to the punch. All I see is a loosely formed theory based on people's vague memories of the time.

Re:airplanes, aeroplanes

[good soldier svejk]

Those are called eyewiteness accounts. For what it is worth, Pearse more or less agreed with you. He felt that because he crashed upon landing, his March 1902 flight was not successful. He credited the Wright brothers. However, I did not say Pearse beat the Wrights to the punch on flight. I said he beat them to the punch on adding the internal an combustion engine and control surfaces. His engine was an immediate success, but the control surfaces, while more advanced than the Wrights, were not fully refined by the time of his 1902 takeoff and crash.

Hmmm tell that to a PC based device controller ...

[Anonymous Coward]

that locks itself up with out of memory conditions after a couple of months of running.

Not on a network other then a dedicated point-to-point connection to the device that it is controlling/monitoring.

Every couple of months I have to go out and kick the stupid thing because it goes belly up because it runs out of virtual memory and locks itself up.

Will hand-dryers be next?

[AndroidCat]

Today I was in the washroom at the Eaton Centre. The auto-urinal and sinks are old tech, but I noticed that the hot air hand-dryers have a two line LCD display with a scrolling "Thank you for making a hand dryer happy" message. (Okay, not quite so Sirius Cybernetic GPP, but close.) Talk about over-engineering! The evil haxor in me wanted to check for an interface to change the message, of course...

Eventually it'll make sense to toss a chip and OS with far more power than required into every appliance .. and probably far more hackable.

Get a diesle

[Anonymous Coward]

Any older Diesle engine will once operating require no electricity of any form of fasion to function. and is completely impervious to any form of power spike police surge trap etc..

But the flip side of that is a bitch

[aristus]

after a cataclysm happens, no matter how often the thing worked before or what mitigating circumstances there were, "once bit, forever shy" takes over. Many newly-graduated engineers are given a steel ring to remind them of fallen bridges from the 19th century.

Inflated fear can also keep good ideas from growing. How long has it been since an engineer has been able to seriously suggest using hydrogen in blimps? How many times have they had to explain that it can be used safely in balloons, cars, etc?

Imagine what the fallout would have been if Richard Feynman hadn't found impeccable software practices during the Challenger investigation. Ouch, eh?

It's easy to be too alarmist as to be too blasé.

They DESERVE to get infected

[pcguru19]

Anyone stupid enough to shell out $40,000 for a camry with leather seats deserves to get a virus. For $30,000; I'll buy them the camry, a garmin streetpilot, and give them a swift kick in the nads. they'll feel the same and be $10,000 less in the hole.

technology is the noose...

[Anonymous Coward]

...with which we will happily hang ourselves with. My advice to all of you is to try to remember what it is like to survive in the stone-age because I think that western civilization is in decline and the falling curve from its peak may become dramatic in the next 3-7 years. Maybe we should stop worrying about our cars and try to work together to use our knowledge to fix the problems in this world?

As others here have pointed out...

[Catullus]

Cabir/Caribe is not a virus. It is a Trojan. As with all other Symbian "viruses" that have been released so far, the user must deliberately run it to infect themselves. It will never be possible to fully protect anything running on any operating system from this sort of attack.

There have as yet been no vulnerabilities in Symbian OS discovered that would allow for the spread of actual viruses or worms. Which I think is pretty damn good compared to other operating systems.

Arogant ignorance

[ArrayIndexOutOfBound]

Symbianite writes to Ron Condon (SC editor) and David Quainton (article author):

In your article Mobile virus infects Lexus cars by David Quainton a reference is made to Symbian operating system as follows:

" It is still unclear whether the cars in question use the Symbian operating system which has recently been under attack from various worms and viruses. "

Symbian is a MOBILE PHONE operating system and has nothing to do with cars. No car manufacturers are Symbian licensees. This could not have been hard to verify - Symbian's web site (www.symbian.com) clearly lists Symbian licensees.

Further to this, what you refer to as "various worms and viruses" is actually malware. All existing malware for Symbian is not based on bad code exploits but rather on user's explicitly bypassing security and dismissing security warnings.

Please ensure that this error is corrected asap. This is bad press for a good company (Symbian) and I am sure they will not waste time in debunking this ignorant rant.

Re:Arogant ignorance

[Davidlost]

It's been amended on the website - you make a good point it seems Daniel-san.

Funny

[Pan T. Hose]

I remember saying 'thrice' to an American once. He thought I was quoting Shakespeare!

Funny. I remember saying 'once' to an American thrice. He thought I was stammering.

Similar feeling

[mrpostal]

Sort of off topic,

but I too have had a similar feeling,

I once had to do a system quote for a system which I was told somehow supported a life support machine that was running windows 95.

I was really quite annoyed that I wasn't allowed to reccommend a *nix/bsd/blah solution.

Oh well, I dont work there anymore anyway :)

New excuse for a sick day

[allrong]

Sorry! Can't make it into work today. My car has a virus.

this isn't even a story

[wilsynet]

The article is full of FUD and contains very little factual content.

It speculates that the car may run Symbian, or run Windows, or run who knows what? It claims that viruses may infect these operating system but supplies no evidence that any such infection has ever occurred.

Re:this isn't even a story

[DeanFox]

RTFA: "Landcruiser 100 models LX470 and LS430 have been discovered with infected operating systems..."

Re:this isn't even a story

[wilsynet]

Okay, well I did. And I missed that line. :)

The invaders are here!

[randolph]

All your base stations are belonging to us.

Hard Windows problems, inc 1 hour boot time

[Cato]

As you say, crashing is not really the problem, though my sister's PC sometimes crashes with her kids' games (video driver issue). However, Windows XP has now moved on (mostly) from crashing to some really hard problems that are almost as annoying and in some cases worse.

I have a brand new WinXP laptop from Dell for work, with 2GB RAM and 1.8 GHz or so CPU - it has two entertaining problems that illustrate this:

1. Kept on waking up from sleep mode after an hour or so - turned out to be that WinXP SP2 will not hibernate if you have more than 512 MB of RAM. Disabling hibernate fixed this, but why should I have to?

2. Takes over an hour to reboot - started in last month, this involves the 'Applying computer settings' stage lasting over one hour. I've spent several hours trying to debug this so far - there is no way around the one hour reboot so this is actually worse.

The hibernate problem could well happen under Linux but it would probably be easier to trace what was happening (debatable though).

The very slow reboot is something that is really hard to debug without Windows ninja skills - I have looked at the event logs but it's not at all clear which service is causing the problem. Disabling services mentioned in various MS KB articles has not helped. I class this problem as almost worse than a crash - sometimes I have to reboot to install new software and I then lose the use of the laptop for over an hour... WinXP is really not helping my productivity here.

My point is that WinXP is now so complex, particularly as you install a lot of software, that it's really hard to find out what is going on. Linux or perhaps MacOS X would be a much better platform for power users - since they are both *nix based, it is a lot easier to see what's going on.

Here's a link

[i41Overlord]

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/Pearse/Pearse. html

It appears that some of his supporters may have claimed that he flew first, but Pearse himself made no such suggestions.

"In two letters, published in 1915 and 1928, the inventor writes of February or March 1904 as the time when he set out to solve the problem of aerial navigation. He also states that he did not achieve proper flight and did not beat the American brothers Orville and Wilbur Wright who flew on 17 December 1903"