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Microsoft's Longhorn Faces Antitrust Scrutiny
benore writes "The Department of Justice
will be reviewing Microsoft's Longhorn product as part of the company's antitrust settlement. One analyst opines that Mircosoft is appearing to soften its image to become kinder and gentler. 'They don't want people to hate them anymore. They've learned from their mistakes.' Hmmm."
So, now, instead of hating them for being the monopolistic, evil, brutish and cruel giant that we all like to think of them, they want us to praise them for their strides forward in the fields of Digital Rights Management, ever-retreating deadlines and anti-crapware stance.
I, for one, welcome our new (helpful) overlords...
--- Egads, I glow in the dark!
I believe it's way they've been way too far to forgive them. Ever since Windows 98, I understood Microsoft was making fun of us. So I went to Linux...and I didn't go back!
... That something constructive comes out of this :)
my band is more brutal techno punk than yours
"They don't want people to hate them anymore"
Remember, it's down the road, not across the street. Make it count.
That's gonna be a hard thing to do... The name of the settlement says it all, "Antitrust", Trust can be broken in a second, but can take years to build back up... If even that. Besides I don't buy that crap, when did M$ learn anything from their mistakes before?
One area that DOJ regulators will be looking at, in particular, is a control panel in Longhorn that facilitates use of a browser and media player other than the Microsoft versions that will be pre-built into the system.
Does this mean that the next version of IE will be built directly into the new OS, as with XP, ME etc? I sincerely hope not, as I am not looking forward to further years of routine tech maintenance on my friend's PCs due to this integration.
I'm not stressed. I'm just terribly, terribly alert.
Oh great, there is another monopoly called Mircosoft?
One monopoly, we could handle... but this is just ridiculous...
All third-party browsers e.g. Firefox and media players e.g. Quicktime ask whether you wish to make them the default when they are opened for the first time. So what is a control panel supposed to achieve ? The effort for the user is in the downloading and installing of the third-party software.
The DOJ should be instead insisting that Microsoft bundle third-party alternatives with the OS not just providing a control panel.
Funtage Factor: Purple
I have to use linux at work as a developer.
it has its good sides and its bad sides. so has windows. some tools are better on linux, some on windows.
but the main advantage on linux is that at least, there is some adherence to standards. most of the protocols are open, and you are basically free to do with it what you want.
if microsoft wants to be 'not hated', they had better start sharing information and decoupling olexpress, media player and iexplorer from windows.
i think that the OS market is a bit like fine sand in their hands: the more you try to hold onto it by force, the faster it slips away.
Since the 2.6 kernel and better USB support, linux is becoming a feasible alternative for businesses, and microsoft is scared as hell of that.
i bet that we will start seeing more huggy type marketing as longhorn nears its release.
'review' a product that hasn't been released yet?
...
And why is the Yahoo article writer so keen to get opinions from that twit of an analyst Laura DiDio? I'm sure someone else here will point out her lovely work defending SCO
Finally, why the hell do I care about this? Oh yeah, that's it: because every single one of my clients continues to use MS. Arrgh.
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
It's easy for the DoJ to review software that isn't out yet. The thing has been in alpha for years. And MS has already shiped demo versions to testers a year or two ago. As for further review, MS has continued to refine the programming (what, you think it takes only a month to program an OS?) and the DoJ is most likely reviewing the most recent build. They are probably also taking a look at what "features" and add ons MS intends to include in the OS.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Putting us in their palm is more like it.
Need a color? Try 100 random colors
I admit I 'hate' Microsoft even though their products are useful and enjoyable enough to use now. But their aggressive business style and the (successful) way they lock consumers/industries into using only their products as well as forced upgrades, unfriendly software and malware intrusions has now left such a bad taste in my mouth that I've been wanting to turn my back on *anything* Microsoft related for a couple of years now.
Mac mini arriving will allow me to eagerly switch from MS's world to that of Apple Macs and Unix/Linux OSs and tools. Over the next couple of years I plan to seriously limit my MS use to that of 'as and when needed', and will be advocating limiting the use of MS products to anyone who will listen (friends/family/businesses/schools)!
-zahg
strenghtens the fact that Microsoft is the devil!!
One analyst opines that Mircosoft is appearing to soften its image to become kinder and gentler. 'They don't want people to hate them anymore. They've learned from their mistakes.' Hmmm."
Yes, renaming the company is a good, first step.
Dunno if that croatian naming touch will get them very far though...
Probably don't want to have to rebuy all their corporate "M$" branded coffee mugs, calendars and Mercedes-Benz's...
Some of us aren't obsessed with anti-microsoft news and this is news to us.
I don't think MS should underestimated about learning from their mistakes, they've done it before (both of them). It's also something FOSS circles should be concerned about, because a more humble MS could reduce the amount of interest in the alternatives.
I believe that the arrogant and hostile attitude of MS has been the number one reason corporations and governments have been looking for alternatives, not for example the arquable quality and price of their products. If we for example look at the EU sanctions concerning Media player, I find it hard to believe that anybody was interested in MS hurting the "media player industry" or that there's something wrong with OS including a media player. More likely the EU just wanted to show that they have the political will to confront MS if they don't get the co-operation they want.
As a Texan I'd like to catch and rope that Longhorn, kill it and roast it slow over a nice camp fire while discussing the latest Linux and BSD news with my friends.
You would think that the editors could at least spell "Microsoft" correct in the article. Especially since that company is discussed "fairly often" around here. Or at least use one of the common misspellings, i.e. M$.
Windows ME needed to exist for the same reason that all other MS products exist. For $$$. But, on an optomistic note, while I only used it because 2k wouldn't run on my defected Asus system, I found ME to be MUCH more stable than 98. Also, installing hardware and software was much easier.
And about the XP UI, am I the only one who immidiatly changes it to the "Classic View"? Supposidly MS spent a ton of time and money looking at user efficiency when they designed the UI for XP, but I just don't see it. Am I the only one?
It's rather rude of you to mention nazis by name this close to the commemmoration of the liberation of Auschwitz.
One area that DOJ regulators will be looking at, in particular, is a control panel in Longhorn that facilitates use of a browser and media player other than the Microsoft versions that will be pre-built into the system.
Great. We have government "experts" who think the choice of media player really important and they aren't even looking at the whole Trusted Computing initiative and the monopolistic implications thereof.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
One analyst opines that Mircosoft is appearing to soften its image to become kinder and gentler. 'They don't want people to hate them anymore.'
Does that include changing their name to Mircosoft?
If you really were a cowboy you'd be eating pudding and exploring your sexuality with your fellow cowboys.
A government that uses closed-source, proprietary software is not an independent government. A company that uses closed-source, proprietary software is not an independent company.
Yes, Microsoft is abusive, and will remain abusive until its abusive leaders are gone, but that is not the point. The point is that you should not pay someone to keep secrets from you.
Making the complete switch to Mac this year. Getting a PowerMac from my Apple Stock earnings. Tiger, here I come!
Sigh. And since I use Windows at home and at work, I am not a free man? Even if I chose to use Windows.
The owls are not what they seem
The DOJ has no balls unless they are dealing with individual people and MS isn't people so its business as usual.
If the DOJ had a clue they would have split up MFST into two+ companies that each had an OS and had to compete with each other. And the company with Word would be competing with the company that had Excel and they wouldn't be allowed to talk to each other except via a public blog. And most of the game divisions would all now be working for different companies.
But the current DOJ people never bothered to look at the Standard Oil case or were bought off.
>One analyst opines that Mircosoft is appearing to
>soften its image to become kinder and gentler.
>'They don't want people to hate them anymore.
>They've learned from their mistakes.' Hmmm."
They might not want people to hate them any more, certainly...but it'll be a very cold day in hell when I believe Microsoft have "learned from their mistakes."
Bill Gates is a raving megalomaniac who wants to take over the world more passionately than most, and his second in command, Dr Evil AKA Steve Ballmer, isn't far behind him on that score either. I will keep using XP for the time being...at least until I can figure out WineX to a greater degree anyway...but I don't trust the evil genius who produces it as far as I could throw him...and neither should anyone else if they know what's good for them.
Which moderator has never had to use a Microsoft OS?
Still I may not use Visual Foxpro with WIne thanks to MS EULA. And of course competition law is always weak. After 4 years of examination they order somthing which is then further delayed in court.
See the EU agreement in whcih MS is forced to license a Windows without media player. They provide it to the same price....
MS is a anti-competitive company.
I think that one of the "standards" that needs to be implemented, even to the point of legislation and law if it isn't done voluntarily, across the board with various companies/monopolies/distros whatever should be an easy-peasy default "play nice" provision and implemented design that respects other OSes on the hard drive. You shouldn't need to jump through any hoops whatsoever to multiboot beyond "do you wish to save the existing installation, yes/no?". Automatic default over writing is teh e-vile.
At home you have far greater security that comes from the fact that no one cares what you are doing with your computer.
Remember the Vietnam war? The U.S. government killed more than 2,000,000 people, none of whom threatened the U.S. directly. Since then, the U.S. government has killed at least 1,000,000 more who did not threaten the U.S. directly. (Most people in the U.S. find these facts so painful that they refuse to learn about why they occurred.)
Don't think that a government that spends an almost endless amount of money on war-making capability suddenly becomes moral when considering invading the computers of foreign governments or companies.
"One analyst opines that Mircosoft is appearing to soften its image to become kinder and gentler."
I guess that would be why there are a sudden rash of MS Ads on the TV lately and why Mr Gates is appearing with Mr Blair explaining how they are jointly going to save all the poor, ill people in the world.
Why anyone would think that appearing with Mr Blair is going to do anything to improve their credibility is beyond me but no doubt they will have found plenty of time to do 'business' backstage.
I did a double-take when I read this is "Microsoft's Longhorn Faces Antitrust Sodomy". I guess it would have been a funnier article.
I won't efin' hate Microsoft anymore when I have a check in my hand, signed by BILL himself, paying me back for all the licensing that I had to buy for hardware that IS STILL RUNNING LINUX to this day.
Fuck Microsoft. Now and forever.
I wonder what effects a Longhorn product delay would have? Could people be more compelled to upgrade to a *nix as the *nix's improve and XP ramains stagnent? I wonder...
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
Because obviously Germany is the home to all "total war" efforts, and the germans really appreciate being reminded of it again and again. Good call, Bill!
Hell, why didn't he call it the "endlosung for spam" while he was at it? And he could present his new DRM efforts under the title "DRM macht frei".
Maybe Microsoft is really a hotbed for nazism. For years I thought their Windows logo looks a bit like a swastika. As does the Developer Studio logo. As does the MSDN logo. All coincidences?
Coming back for a moment to the mentioning of nazis being rude when remembering Auschwitz - no, it is not. The nazis _must_ be remembered and named as the monsters they were, not hidden and ultimately forgotten.
I don't see any where them learning anything beside delaying longhorn even longer seems like their giving FOSS enough time to kill them.
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LOL
Microsoft's early mission statement was "A computer on every desk, running Microsoft software".
Their current mission statement is: "To enable people and businesses throughout the world to realize their full potential."
Before October 2002, it was "To empower people through great software -- any time, any place, and on any device."
The early mission satement was far better, and more representative of how they actully do business. If you were an employee, which statement gives you the most clear goals? If you were an investor, which company's stock would you buy? Of course, there's no mention of integrity, quality, ethics, but nevermind that...
Back to the topic, has anyone seen any real changes in behavior (not just some analyst saying they want to be nicer)?
Mac mini arriving will allow me to eagerly switch from MS's world to that of Apple Macs
I've always found it quite interesting that people choose to switch from MS products to Apple products. Apple is quite possibly the most restrictive company of the three. They don't only lock you in with their software, but they lock you in with hardware as well! They force high hardware prices on people because there are no alternatives (although many mac zealots, suprisingly, love to defend the high profit margins Apple pulls in for hardware). Their software practices just as much lock-in and integration as MS. Yes you can run unix apps on OSX, but you can do the same in Windows. Don't kid yourself, if Apple had the market share of MS, they'd be slapped with a massive anti-trust lawsuit too.
If you are leaving MS on principle, move to Linux. A fantastic, full-featured OS, with none of the capitalist 'dirtyness' to marr it.
"...They've learned from their mistakes..."
...
Learned? They've *profited* from their mistakes.
WinME, Win9 & 98, IE, Office
Microsoft indeed realizes that they have an image problem in some respects (of course they're percieved much worse in places like Slashdot than they are in the market as a whole) and they're trying to change that.
/. crowd, of course.)
One of the things that stood out when I listened in on their earnings call the other day is that they're showing a temporary drop in revenue from MSN search due to decreasing of the number of paid results that are returned.
Consider that. They're saying no to money in the bag, in order to attract a certain type of users (not the type that's wet over Google, like the
They're doing the same with an apparent focus on security in their products. Increased development time looks bad "this quarter" but they're betting that overall it be better for them to have the image of a security focus.
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
Here's what I'd have liked to see:
.Net. Then just say, "Look, our stuff runs on OS X and that Linux thing! Mono!" At least they'll still be selling copies of Office.
Windows XP Professional, at the Home price, shipping with SP2 preinstalled. The product also includes MS Antispyware and MS Antivirus with free updates for the life of Windows XP.
The default install comes locked down - firewall on, IE security cranked up to High, Messenger and other unnecessary services turned off, user accounts are by default Users and not Administrators.
There is no nagging about associating your Windows account with your Passport, and IE will cleanly uninstall with no complaints. Explorer does not treat you like an idiot and lets you navigate into any folder you choose without having to opt in.
Then I would say that Windows is OKAY. So, maybe these antitrust guys can keep Microsoft on its toes and get them to produce an OKAY Windows.
Great insurance against future antitrust stuff: port Office to
The US Army: promoting democracy through unquestioned obedience
Longhorn is scheduled for release in 2006.
Cracks me up every time.
All your Sybase are belong to us.
Who hates Microsoft? Only techno-geeks that have an open-source agenda.
On the other hand, talk to older folks and they see Microsoft as the company that brought usable and affordable personal computing to the masses. They see Microsoft as one of the companies that fattened their 401k or mutual funds.
So you see not everybody hates Microsoft.
Microsoft is still strongarming hardware manufacturers in almost mafia style and forces them to bundle Windows with their computers and to charge customers for it against their will.
This is clearly one of the most unfair and monopolistic practices in history and I simply cannot understand how the Department of Justice has not done much about this for that many years. Is there anything(serious solution) that people like you and me can do about that?
There's no reason whatsoever for the government to suddenly change its strategy regarding M$. This is just an another opportunity for some M$ management types to meet up with their buddies at the Justice Department and talk about old times. After that, Longtime will get the thumbs up and M$ will be allowed to continue unfolding its evil plans unhindered.
Exactly what mistakes has Microsoft made then? They are the biggest, most successful computer company on the face of the planet. The antitrust settlement was no more than a slap on the wrist; profits continue to climb, and show no signs of doing otherwise.
Before you flame away, note that I'm not passing judgement on any moral issues or suchlike, I'm just saying that, from Microsoft's point of view, as a business, any mistakes they might have made pale into insignificance compared to their spectacular successes.
We here on Slashdot may hate DRM and IE and a dozen other things that MS is pushing, but to claim that they were mistakes on Microsoft's part is just daft.
So this "learning from their mistakes" business seems to be nonsense, except in the sense that they're gunning for the 1% of the market that they feel they missed out on.
What I don't understand is why was it a problem to bundle in IE, but it's not a problem to bundle in a word processor (Wordpad), calculator, media player, etc, etc???
So we've all talked about the foibles of the Microsoft products and Windows opperating systems and still we question if they're going for a 'softer image'.
Does 'soft image' include floating Sun Microsystems (who was about to go under) a $2 billion dollar check with an attached note that reads "I'll let you live as long as you agree to never bad-mouth us again. EVER." Or how about then using their newly purchased ally to jointly bash IBM and Linux after realizing that MS is starting to lose some of its grip on the server market?
Bill Gates is much less of a coder than he is a businessman. He knows how to protect his assets, and I wouldn't put much of anything past him in terms of the lengths he would go to for the sake of deceiving who he has to to keep the company alive. Donating to charity is a great thing overall, but I have to wonder about the motives. Bill Gates has an extremely intelligent business model for the long haul, part of which has been unoficially 'buying' competitors to keep them afloat just so they don't get more antritrust issues than they should for about 20 years now.
Softer Image? I'm not buying it.
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
Test XP/Longhorn.
Fix the freakin' bugs you find.
Don't deny (in)security issues, if having some. Fix them ASAP.
And I won't be disgusted and won't use the "M$" tag anymore.
Shortly: Fix the balance between marketing and technical resources.
You do have tons of customers.
Windows could be a good product.
I am a linux user - but pls create an alternative to linux. A linux-monoculture is nearly as bad as a win-monoculture. MacOS is aiming now for this, but hey. The more usable OSs - the better.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Products aside, MS had built a reputation of intimidation. The Dept.of Justice should have broken the OEM contracts. That would have leveled the playing field a whole lot quicker. As long as they have OEM's at their mercy they'll remain a monopoly. Yes, OEM's have a choice in the outset but what are they to do? I dislike MS more for their "business" practices than their OS's.
anyone remember the "Advanced Mircofusion Generator" in Tyrian?
Handyboard Hackers' Resource Guide
-- DOJ Takes a Long Look at Longhorn, January 26, 2005
Let's just hope Microsoft follows Mircosoft's example.
Anyone with MSDN subscription (well, at least for Universal), can DL and install it. The .ISO image only fits on DVDs.
All true - apps bring the users. But what brings the apps?
As much as he was (rightly) mocked for the monkey dance, Ballmer's "developers, developers, developers" rant had a real message behind it, and I suspect what has MS running scared at the moment, from a strategic standpoint, is just how hackable and generally developer friendly Linux is.
This is why MS _loves_ companies like RedHat and Novell. Not only are they companies, and therefor attackable, but they also provide a static target. There is also the ossification that is natural to a profitable company, but that is harder to define. (When the Board is happy with profits and there's a strategy plan for the next year on the table, and there are a few shining star salesguys around, start saving money. cf Sun circa 1998.) MS gets it, though, and knows how to attack it.
Modulo the coming patent war (which I don't think anyone can predict how that will play out), the biggest threat to MS is the hobby coder, to whom (ironically enough) they started off catering. Debian, Damn Small Linux, etc. are things they can't kill, because they don't play by the same rules. Rule one of incumbent defense: watch the low end.
I forget what 8 was for.
And move out of your parents' basement.
Slashdot personality: If you can possibly find something remotely wrong with something someone said, focus on that. Ignore the central meaning and how what was said could be correct.
If you want the same answer above from the U.S. government's Department of Defense, look at this PDF file, located on a U.S. military web site: National Defense Budget Estimates for the FY 2005 Budget.
What's 100 Billion one way or the other? The 450.586 Billion U.S. dollars listed there as the 2005 U.S. government money for war-making capability is enough to justify my argument.
If part of it doesn't go for spying on other countries, where does it go? The think they don't have to tell you, and if they did say something, they don't think they don't have to tell the truth.
Yes, but that would be rather a lousy way to run a business, now wouldn't it? Maybe, if there weren't any competition, Microsoft could break compatibility every few months but that's theoretical.
I haven't had any Windows compatibility problems in the past and if I ever do I'm perfectly willing to upgrade. I don't understand why paying for a version upgrade is such an anathema. After all, Microsoft is not billing you for the service packs and patches you can download.
To me dropping Windows completely is not an option even if I wanted to do so. At home I want to be able to play games and at work I work I have to deal with MS Office documents. No, OpenOffice does not import/export documents properly.
Now, don't make a mistake. I am running Linux on my home "media server" and I've been running Linux and BSD variants since 1992. I am just pissed off at the kind of self-righteous false dichotomies offered by some people like the parent poster. The world is not black and white. It is not "you're either for free software or you're against it". His reasons - like those of RMS - for pushing free software are political, not practical, and I will not have any part in such shenanigans.
The owls are not what they seem
Gimp sucks compared to MS Paint, (lets leave out photoshop cause there's no point comparing a free tool to something of professional level. It's like comparing a shovel to a backhoe in terms of digging ability.)
Gimp also sucks compared to Paint Shop Pro.
Nice to see you agreeing with the previous poster though. As he said, the free versions suck shit compared to the professional ones.
Coming soon - pyrogyra
"Slashdot personality: If you can possibly find something remotely wrong with something someone said, focus on that. Ignore the central meaning and how what was said could be correct."
Could be correct. But anything "could be correct" if we don't bother to check the facts. Your "facts" are a matter of interpretation as I demonstrated by showing that nearly all federal spending (maybe all?) can be construed as defense spending if you choose to interpret it that way.
I'm not avoiding your central argument, I'm showing it's a baseless argument not grounded in reality. Of course we spend part of our defense budget on espionage. Intelligence is key in making good decisions. Would you prefer we just randomly decide on a defense strategy and proceed to implement it? I think we all know what bad intelligence leads to...
As far as DoD numbers vs. Whitehouse numbers vs. Congressional numbers:
1) The only numbers that matter are the ones from Congress. They, after all, control spending. Not the Whitehouse, not the DoD, DoE, FAA, etc.
2) No politician (I hate using absolutes unless I'm absolutely sure, but I'm fairly absolutely sure about this) has any clue about *actual* federal expenditures. It's all a shifting morass of phony numbers and projections. The CBO probably has at least half a clue, but who can really know?
Which leads me to the last part of your post. How do you know if they are lying (intentionally not telling the truth) if they themselves don't really know what's going on? That's like asking somebody who is delusional for an accurate account of the evening news and then calling them a liar when they get it wrong.
We're way off topic here...
Hatred of Microsoft diminishes by orders of magnitude the further you get from Slashdot. Fundamentally, the reason anti-trust prosecutions stall out is because they don't have any popular support.
this is the most idiotic argument that i've ever heard of.
so using your same logic, this means that halliburton is an angelic company that everyone should be fawning about because they made someone money on their stocks...
same with the military industrial complex that makes billions and billions of dollars off the backs of the average american's taxes every year.
This kind of 'bottom line is the only line' argument is the most closed minded ignorant way to view the world. what ever happened to ethics? what ever happened to morales? apparently all tossed in the trash heap because they didn't make you enough money.
Now that Bill's taught the DOJ to rollover, do you suppose he'll teach them to shake and fetch.
[Insert pithy quote here]
"They don't want people to hate them anymore. They've learned from their mistakes."
But, then, nothing else Microsoft does (or makes) works, either, so that's no surprise...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
I've never heard of Millard but the people she quotes are well known MS propogandists. I take it Millard is trying to get on the gravy train?
Go bsd and you probably won't go back.
...is by many of the slashdot commentors.
Soooo try this tree of links out for insight as to what is planned for in longhorn
Of course there is the DOJ having already established their bias in MS favor regarding punishment and MS's attitude of what fines and claimed constraints have been made are just the "cost of doing business"...
You might want to look into the '94 consent decree before making comments about how the current DOJ might have been "bought off."
hitler killed a ton of jews
Oh really? Then I guess removing the WPA for XP is not out of the question hu? (All of /. chants snowball-hell)
Ive heard it before. "Whats the problem? Its just a number identifying you and there is no personal identifying information."
Now where did I hear that before? Oh ya Intel.
The sad thing is I might just purchase XP if it werent for the WPA.
They don't want people to hate them anymore. They've learned from their mistakes.' Hmmm.
1 /29/1511218.shtml?tid=109&tid=172&tid=106
They already broke their new years resolution:
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/05/0
They should stop trying to get people to stop using their comptetitor's products (*cough* firefox *cough* gmail *cough* linux), and start making their own products better.
probably just a pre-empive rubber stamp from their pals at justice.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Then get VC-1 the heck out of the HD DVD and BD-ROM standards. And push now for getting open codecs into standards for storage and broadcast. Also push radio and television stations to offer streaming content in an open format. BBC, NPR, DR1, YLE, SR, etc. all would be candidates.
Remember also that audio codecs are separate from video codecs. The audio codecs for BD-ROM have not been chosen ... yet.
Ogg Vorbis would benefit all producers and consumers, except the one we won't mention. Think lower manufacturing costs because Vorbis is royalty-free. Think greater flexibility and speed of development because of the flexible license Vorbis uses.
I don't see how that's news. Microsoft has managed to abide by the terms of it's anti-trust settlement, surprising but not really news...
-- Howto: Get +5 (1) Whine about M$ (2) Namedrop Gentoo (3) Casually Abuse Mods (4) Namedrop Early Computer Model