Bill Gates Talks about Belgian eID Card

Brainsur writes "Today Bill Gates visited Belgium to talk about the Electronic ID card introduced last year in Belgium as experiment. Microsoft announced that they will integrate the electronic identification into the Windows Software so they can deliver more security and privacy on the internet. The register has more news."

Comments

Privacy?

[Anonymous Coward]

How should I expect privacy when my computer has my ID card? I want my ID card in my pocket, so i know when it is readable by anyone.

vajk

Re:Privacy?

[lucabrasi999]

ow should I expect privacy when my computer has my ID card?

Take it a step further: I would consider the terms "ID Card" and "Privacy" to be contradictory.

Re:Privacy?

[PornMaster]

In this sense, yes, the ID card and privacy may very well be contradictory. But you could theoretically have an ID card which was anonymous, but presented to you as some sort of credential.

Think of it as a standard door lock. The lock provides security, they key provides access, with the assumption that anyone presented with a key should have access. Unlike a scheme which requires biometric or identifiable authentication - non-anonymous keycard/biometrics/doorman - a metal key, in a sense, protects your privacy.

If you were given an ID card which identified you based upon some other kind of characteristic, such as having completed some form of task, separate from your name, age, DNA, etc... you could have an ID card which protected your anonymity. I guess it's all about how you think of ID as identifying you.

If you don't think of the passbook of a Swiss numbered bank account as being a form of ID, then I'm sure you'll disagree with me.

Re:Privacy?

[dago]

Er... it is. It's an ID-card with a chip on it, so you'll have to put it into some reader ...

Re:Privacy?

[Ruleke]

In my understanding, this is how the card works. The sections on the chips containing data used for 3rd party applications are totally seperated by the chip design, and allow linking using a unique identifier simply stored in these sections.

Don't take my word for it though, I don't have one yet, nor will I be able to check how it works when I get it.

Re:Privacy?

[laurensv]

eID card is physical object, if you don't want in your computer, pull it out of the cardreader, see here

Re:Privacy?

[Nikademus]

Now I want to go to the internet... Do I have to buy that new gizmo that reads eIDs and carry it with me???

Re:Privacy?

[WaZiX]

Well the ID card in belgium would be to allow online paperwork like taxes and maybe even voting, we've had normal ID cards for longer then ive lived and the idea behind this was to be able to identify yourself to authorities if necessary (not only cops but for banks, administrations, voting, etc..). Now my guess is that they talked to microsoft to find a way to secure these online transactions, quite frankly as long as its secure and works i don't care who writes the protocol.

Being belgian i can quite frankly say this I see this as a benefit, seeing how wonderfully brilliant our administrations are a little automation can only do us good.

Oh and it would solve a lot of communautary problems aswell, since as you probably know (ok you probably don't) about half of belgium speaks dutch , the other half speaks french (and we have a small german community). SO thats 3 official languages, and theres a lot of problems regarding people wanting to fill in forms in their native language while living in another region.

Oh and belgium has always been keen on electronic gadgets, we have for example a little electronic chip in our bank cards that act as cash, so we can fill them in any phone booth or ATM free of charge and use them in stores in much the same way as cash.

So anyways, this eID card is good news, and hopefully they'll extend it to the whole country as soon as possible.

Re:Privacy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Take it a step further: I would consider the terms "ID Card" and "Privacy" to be contradictory.

Not necessarily...an ID card also has the use of distinguishing "John Smith" from his neighbor "John Smith" and his coworker "John Smith". Having a standard method of unique identification can actually increase privacy in some situations by not requiring someone to offer personal life details just to distinguish oneself.

In the US, the Social Security number is an ideal candidate for this. I really wish the government would declare something to the effect of "All SSNs will be publically available in 5 years...anyone still trying to use them as a security implementation will need to find a real system by then. Deal with it."

The problem with a national ID card used as security is one of trust. If it's easy to fake, nobody will trust it, and potential damage is small in single instances. If it's difficult to fake, it's trusted, and potential damages in the few instances of successful deception are unlimited. Total potential damages and costs to society remain the same, regardless of how difficult counterfeiting might be.

I'm fully in favor of national, random, checksummed unique identifier that is completely public. Claiming to be "DHSGX-2814" would provide no actual proof of identity, but there is only one "DHSGX-2814" in the nation. We could stop confusing duplicate names and requiring extra personal details like address, etc, simply to provide uniqueness.

I agree that it's a little impersonal to be a number, not a name, but it's far more practical.

Re:Privacy?

[lucabrasi999]

I did happen to know about the multi-language issue in Belgium, but thanks for pointing out the details behind the issue.

And, I have to admit, I am being a bit over-reactive with my post. However, in the United States, it is a bit of a tradition to be overly-sensitive to the idea of the government keeping track of it's citizens through a common ID card system.

OTOH, the government (and private companies) do keep track of us through Driver's Licenses and other cards (such as credit cards). Even so, the idea of a completely centralized database holding ID card information for all citizens does tend to raise privacy concerns here on the left side of "the pond".

To avoid confusion for the Europeans reading this post: Driver's Licenses are issued by each of the fifty individual state governments. An ID card system would be run by the federal (national) government.

Re:Privacy?

[halaloszto]

Id as a codebook is ok. Just the codebook is being used by me myself and I. It is not gonna handled by a computer that runs programs from a zillion of vendors, some i do not even know about. Would you insert your codebook into a public "codebook handling terminal"?

All this is about who has control. By moving away of good ols paper based solutions, we lose control! I want to make the decision if i want to handle my identity over or not. And i want to be sure that the website i access does not access my SSN number. By being sure i mean sure. Not that Bill promises it will not get it, i want to be as sure as i am right now with my ID card in my back pocket.

vajk

Re:Privacy?

[lucabrasi999]

If you don't think of the passbook of a Swiss numbered bank account as being a form of ID

Yes, it is. But, if I understand how Swiss banks work correctly, they don't keep track of all of my activities (just key Financial transactions). An ID card issued by the goverment would, by it's very definition, keep track of all of my activities in a central location (Financial and non-Financial).

I'll take off my tin-foil hat now. I am being a bit over-reactionary. But, as I posted elsewhere, here in the United States, we do tend to cite privacy concerns when it comes to the idea of the national government keeping track of all of our activities. In reality, I know they COULD keep track of me today, if they tried. I'm just being a bit of a devil's advocate.

Re:Privacy?

[bigpat]

"If you don't think of the passbook of a Swiss numbered bank account as being a form of ID, then I'm sure you'll disagree with me."

And that Swiss numbered bank account is usually linked to identifying information about you. The Swiss have largely done away with anonymity because of pressure from foreign governments over money laundering and tax evasion.

Re:Privacy?

[mcc]

> But you could theoretically have an ID card which was anonymous, but presented to you as some sort of credential.

- BEFORE -

Hi, I'd like to buy a plane ticket.

Alright, please enter your name and government ID into this form.

I don't want to enter my ID number, that would allow you to link my ID number to my name and it's supposed to be an anonymous credential.

Then you can't buy plane tickets from us.

- AFTER -

GATOR BUDDY LICENSE AGREEMENT
[300 lines of text]
Customer agrees that GATOR BUDDY, INC will in the course of the operation of this program read your name, address, and government ID number from your Windows registry and transmit it back to GATOR BUDDY, INC as part of your customer profile.
[300 lines of text]
OK CANCEL

Man, what a pain, does anyone actually read these things?

OK

Re:Privacy?

[slashname3]

How can you expect privacy when your electronic ID is stored on a Windows system? As soon as you input your ID information the spy ware on the system will broadcast it to the world.

This is going to be a boon to the identity theft rings.

Let me guess, they are using DES encryption in Bulgaria due to export restrictions. ;)

Re:Privacy?

[null etc.]

You won't necessarily know when your ID card is readable by anyone, if it uses RFID. Even if it's in your pocket.

Re:Privacy?

[LordNightwalker]

And being a Spanish citizen living in Belgium (was born here, lived here whole my life but still got Spanish nationality), I'd like to add that it would be way cool if they also replaced our paper residency cards by something smaller and possibly more robust. Finding a wallet to fit my 12.5x9cm residency card in, which I need to carry with me all the time since it's the only id I have, is quite a bitch. Not to mention the fact that I got it in june 2004, it's valid 'till april 2009, and already looks like I been toting it around in 'nam or something.

Re:Privacy?

[Eivind]

Not nessecarily.

For example, a anonymous id-card would be very useful. They could sell them in any kiosk. All it does is allow you to identify as the holder of a certain card.

This is useful to build up trustworthy pseudonyms. People don't know who you are (unelss you tell them), but they *do* know that you are the same person who wrote software X. Or that you are the same person who bougth product Y from me one month ago, or even just that you're the same person I chatted with last week.

Additional information could be added to pseudonyms at will by having that information signed by some trusted (non-anonymous) entity.

For example, your bank could offer to digitally sign a statement that "Holder of pseudonym X is more than 18 years old." Or any other statement you could find useful.

Your privacy would be protected because you yourself would choose which info you provide along with your pseudonym. For some services perhaps nothing, for others your age.

Re:Privacy?

[Vroem]

I'm a Belgian citizen. I've been signing and encrypting email using a free S/MIME certificate since it was possible on OS X.

I hope this card will enable more people to do this with more ease of use and more security. But I doubt it, given our gov's tradition with Microsoft.

Re:Privacy?

[justins]

If you were given an ID card which identified you based upon some other kind of characteristic, such as having completed some form of task, separate from your name, age, DNA, etc... you could have an ID card which protected your anonymity. I guess it's all about how you think of ID as identifying you.

And you'd have to have an issuer of the ID who was both completely trustworthy, uninterested in who you are, and willing to do the work for free. Any real-world examples?

Re:Privacy?

[mcc]

Oh.. The "after" I was referring to was Bill Gates' promise from the article about how the eID card will be integrated with Windows.

hmmm

[Lusa]

Might be me but whenever I see Microsoft talking about new features adding "security and privacy" I keep thinking there is a word missing.. like exploit, or hole...

Re:hmmm

[superpulpsicle]

Yeah, on top of that security, it comes with a retina scan. It should not blow out your eye socket by beta 2 or release candidate 6.

Re:hmmm

[l3v1]

Why, no, it just shoots a bit of ultraviolet in, if you're blind at least they are safe [i.e. from you] :D

There was an old joke about the barber who did a terrible job. At his place, all the people who came in had different hairdos. All who came out had the same :]

Whatever, it's late :)

Re:hmmm

[Lusa]

Does that work on any sort of eyeball.. like one from another animal.. might be a market opening for the adventurous :D

Re:hmmm

[Lusa]

Didn't quite think that comment required asbestos clothing.. seriously though, if this is yet another single sign on feature I'd rather do without. They make it way too easy to steal a persons identity if it held access to all the passwords that a browser/OS keeps for you (a feature I see being a requirement in the near future).

Now if the card had a thumbprint reader built in so that could only be activated with a valid print.. that would be something.

Re:hmmm

[jd]

I notice you only promise the eyeball will be safe by release candidate 6. I guess the problems with burning out the lens, retina and optic nerve will be dealt with later.

Or will that be left to a service pack to eye-patch?

Re:hmmm

[MasterOfUniverse]

Yeah, on top of that security, it comes with a retina scan.

Did anyone else read it as rectal scan??

Sorry sir...

[JakeisBland]

"You must first open your passport .net account for us to verify your ID."

Re:Microsoft.. Security?

[TekMonkey]

My thoughts exactly.

Which is worse?

[BeerCat]

Don't know which is worse - a country going full tilt down the electronic ID route (when even the perceived benefits are less than the cost), just because, you know, it's technology. Or Bill G saying it will make things more "secure"

For those countries that require ID, just why is the manual system that has been in place suddenly no good any more?

Re:Which is worse?

[Jheaden]

Well the Register article did say Microsoft was only integrating it with MSN Messenger to make chatrooms more safe.

[sarcasm]
ooohhhh that just makes Windows so much more secure
[\sarcasm]

Seems rather pointless to me

Re:Which is worse?

[RamboCalrissian]

Ich bein ein ID card?

More privacy???

[Loke]

Am I the only one wondering how a state-guaranteed ID card used for authentication will provide more _privacy_???

Before attempting anything criminal, better report your eID card stolen. /c

Re:More privacy???

[JohnsonWax]

Am I the only one wondering how a state-guaranteed ID card used for authentication will provide more _privacy_???

Well, the NSA uses an assload of authentication to ensure privacy.

You're equating privacy to anonymity, which are different things. The ID card prevents anonymity but could help or hinder privacy, depending on it's use.

Of course, there needs to be a expression of trust that the authentication won't be used for other purposes which would lead to less privacy.

Problem is that MS, like the govt., assumes everyone trusts them when in fact few do - but they don't understand that. Good application for a free market - authenticate through who you trust to not abuse your ID. Lots of insfrastructure there though.

Sounds like MS Passport v2.0!

[denis-The-menace]

Now user in belgium will effectively have MS passport in physical form.

In Canada, Businesses are forbidden to use SIN#s for tracking purposes and this is not that different. Maybe if it works there, he'll be able to use the US' ID cards the same way.
Oh and patent the fuck out of it, too.

being a belgian

[varkman]

and knowing my way around windows, this has me somewhat frightened.

Unanswered Questions

[Staplerh]

Hmm. There's a BIG question unanswered in this article.

Microsoft believes that combined with the eID Card MSN Messenger chatrooms will be much safer. Users would have a trustworthy way of identifying themselves online. The Belgian Federal Computer Crime Unit (FCCU) could even refuse young children access to certain chatrooms based on their electronic identity.

Now.. is the ID card REQUIRED to use the MSN service, or is it just another level of idenitifcation? One model, such as what Amazon.com uses for reviews, is to accredit reviews with a 'Real Name' sticker if it is indeed the poster's real name (as verified by their credit card). But it isn't required to actually post a review, only to get that extra level of verification.

Anybody else have a different take on it, did I miss this important point?

Re:Unanswered Questions

[dago]

Well, I guess that if they kick out of MSN all users which don't have a belgian ID card, that will piss off 99% of their customers ;)

Even if you enlarge to all e-ID owner, that's still limited (Finland, Estonia, Sweden aren't quite large either).

Re:Unanswered Questions

[Ruleke]

The government secretary that is responsible stated on TV that is was an aditional optional layer of identification.
Also, they are investigating how to handle children that are not issued an ID yet (in Belgium, ID cards are issued at age 12). One possibility is a seperate type of "chat-card" or using the card from the parents to authorize access to certain chats.

Re:Unanswered Questions

[laurensv]

rant I tried to post this story, but got rejected. (Don't know why, my summary was better) /rant
As you can read here and in the register one of the main applications for the eID is to fight back the abuse of under aged chatters by adults. MSN Belgium closed its chatrooms last year due to that issue. The Belgian Federal Computer Crime Unit in 2003 registered 39 cases of children harassed by paedophiles on the web. Our government (wouldn't ICT if it farked him in the ass) secretary for eGov thinks this will help the situation.

Re:Unanswered Questions

[discord5]

Now.. is the ID card REQUIRED to use the MSN service, or is it just another level of idenitifcation? One model, such as what Amazon.com uses for reviews, is to accredit reviews with a 'Real Name' sticker if it is indeed the poster's real name (as verified by their credit card). But it isn't required to actually post a review, only to get that extra level of verification.

When it was announced here (yes I'm from Sell-your-privacy Belgium) a minister here spoke at great length about how this would provide chatrooms that children could safely enter without fear of pedophiles. How this could make online banking safe. Etc etc etc

Within seconds my colleages and I had broken this ministers theory. What if your passport is (drumroll) stolen? (Technical crowd bursts out in laughter)

It won't take long before these passports will be forged like any other, and pedophiles will roam the chatrooms and online banking will be done the traditional way (with encryption and a password). When it comes to MSN requiring an eID... Well, I'll just switch to another service and extend my middle finger to our government who (once again) has sold privacy and progress to a large multinational.

The questions that pop up into my mind, even when I'm not considdering the fact that this system might not be as secure as announced by our government, are :

• How long before ISPs require their customers to ID themselves and log everything from their proxy linked to that specific ID?
• How long before all my e-mail gets signed with my eID?
• How long before access to certain public places requires an eID? (eg. library, colleges, universities) How long before access is denied based on eID?
• How long before the government starts using the eID to actively track my habits online and in public places?

Yes, I know... It's all tin-foil hat speculation, worst case scenario dramas and overly paranoid mumblings. It's just very disappointing to see my government spending money on a system that can be foiled with something as simple as theft.

Re:Unanswered Questions

[rem1313]

(this is a repost comment, but should answer some of your questions I hope)

Electronic ID card primariliy is a means to reliably authenticate anyone in electronic communication just like a passport in physical world.

Secondly, it is also a means to electronically sign documents as a replacement for physical pen-and-ink signatures.

It is based on public key cryptography, and private keys are generated on tamper-resistant smart-card and never leave the card (by smart card design). Governmet issues a certificate (signed by gov. CA) that confirm your identity and association with your private key (your public key is included in certificate). The microchip on the card provides functions that enable use of private keys such as signing hashes, etc (but never retrieval).

The authentication and signature functions are seperated and protected by different PIN numbers (or biometric data).

As a result, a variety of services can be put online that could never be possible without a _highly reliable_ means of authentication of individuals. Examples are government services: tax declarations, access to state registers, communication with government, e-voting, etc.

Using signatory function you could prepare and sign contracts, submit formal applications and sign them elecronically. It will provide such assurances as non-repudiation, integrity (nobody can claim that you didn't sign it and your signature is automatically invalidated if document integrity is compromised). And by law, public sector organizations are obliged to accept such documents.

If the card gets lost or stolen, the certificates are blacklisted and as a result access to online services is blocked. Certification service provider also provides a means to verify if such and such certificate was valid at certain time. Time-stamping services are also possible.

If you think about it, nobody forces you to use it, but once implemented and opportunities appear, the possibilities are endless. Your identity is protected by PIN codes and without your consent, the information available (and collectable) is very limited.

Sure, it might be a bumpy road in the begining, especially because the average user probably does not realize the importance of actually protecting his online identity, but once technology matures, users get educated and more services appear, life will become much more easier.

And imagine time saved when dealing with, for example, governmental institutions - no standing in lines to fill out some form or fill in tax declarations, etc. And it is cost and time benefits are realized on the other end too - if e.g. tax declarations are submitted electronically then nobody needs to go over each and every one and retype to get them into database for later processing. It could be done automatically.

Actually, i'm writing b.sc. thesis regarding impelmentation of electronic identity and signature in Latvia - so anyone has valuable comments, please don't hesitate to contact me :) rem[at]fabrika[dot]lv

You might want to check out Estonia, which has implemented the eID project and they have issued some 700,000 ID cards with electronic functions on them. Pretty impressive.

Re:Unanswered Questions

[gibson_81]

Even if you enlarge to all e-ID owner, that's still limited (Finland, Estonia, Sweden aren't quite large either).

What, we have these things in Sweden? Where do I sign up? =)

In an internal memo...

[igny]

Microsoft announced that they will integrate the electronic identification into the Windows Software so they can deliver more security and privacy on the internet.

For slashdotters, who don't have an access to M$ internal documents, "deliver more" is replaced with "charge more for" there.

Re:In an internal memo...

[TheViffer]

HA!

How hard is it for Microsoft to "deliver more security and privacy"? Starting from nothing, it should be pretty easy.

So are the ID cards rewritable?

[afstanton]

I'm sorry, ma'am, but your card says right here that you are Saddam Hussein. How you escaped and got the sex change and full facial reconstruction so fast is beyond us. Just come along peacefully, now. The potential for virus mayhem is amazing. If not rewritable, at least imagine the identity theft possibilities.

Re:So are the ID cards rewritable?

[LordNightwalker]

I'm sorry, ma'am, but your (plain old paper) card says right here that you are Saddam Hussein. How you escaped and got the sex change and full facial reconstruction so fast is beyond us. Just come along peacefully, now. The potential for pickpockets exchanging your id with a fake one is amazing. If not written in pencil, at least imagine the identity theft possibilities.

Trust me, these cards are pretty safe. We been using similar ones for electronic cash and social security for years now, and I still haven't heard of the first case of abuse of those. I could of course look up how they work internaly to protect the data from overwriting by any joe schmoe with a multimeter, a couple of batteries and some PIC with associated firmware, but so could you, and I haven't seen you make any effort of informing yourself instead of posting uninformed nonsense, so I guess I'm excused from doing your work for you.

Re:So are the ID cards rewritable?

[afstanton]

Yeah, because asking questions of the general public takes a lot more effort than doing it myself. I've got better things to do with my time, and don't care enough to do it myself, so it's out of idle curiosity that I ask. Also, a pickpocket can only work one person at a time. Viruses and spyware hammer thousands at once. That's how this is different. If you don't want to work for me, fine. I won't pay you. Wasn't going to anyway.

Finland has had it for a while

[TommydCat]

Finland has been issuing smartcard electronic IDs that the citizens use for electronic voting among other things (hanging chads, anyone)?

Any Fins here wish to comment?

Re:Finland has had it for a while

[rasjani]

Ruffly about 100k people got the "chipped" id card (and about 5M people here). Nobody uses it, its not required anywhere, there's absolutely not momemtum behind it. And it doesnt work in linux ;) (atleast it didnt few years ago)

Saying its dead and buried would be understatement.

The problem ? It costs too much and average-pertti doesnt really get anything for his money ..

Re:Finland has had it for a while

[ilmari7]

Sure, living in Finland I've got one of these smartcard IDs myself. It's basicly just a regular ID card with a chip. There isn't really much you can do with it so far. It still seems to be in a state of experiment. Can't vote with it or anything like that yet. Maybe in a few years.

Re:Does it matter?

[TheViffer]

I am a little confused by this. Distributing a card with a chip with a unique ID? I didn't think Borg cared about uniqueness when it came to assimilation?

Seven years later !

[clarkie.mg]

It was the 4th of february, 1998. It happened.

Seven years later, he dares to come back.

Re:Seven years later !

[kidgenius]

Interestingly enough, it happened on February 4th, just a few days from now. How do I know this? I read it on my Despair calendar earlier today.

Re:Seven years later !

[ballpoint]

'dares' is the word indeed.

I attended his keynote to the developer community this morning, and quite frankly, I was amazed at the casual atmosphere and the low level of security. Anyone of the attendees could have carried and fired a gun at him at close range.

I appreciate it that Bill still has the guts to appear in public. He must know that it takes only one wacko, and that one day he WILL walk into one.

But then, maybe it was a döppelgänger...

Re:Seven years later !

[discord5]

Aaaaah, the good old days. You can't imagine how hard I laughed when it was on the news here. Too bad nobody gave him some pie as a present this year (gave, not threw)

Re:Seven years later !

[discord5]

Anyone of the attendees could have carried and fired a gun at him at close range.

Who'd want to kill Bill Gates when you can throw pie? Honestly, I'd get more of a kick out of it seeing his face full of whipped cream again than to see him dead.

Re:Seven years later !

[ballpoint]

Who'd want to Kill Bill ?

This lady, perhaps ?

Re:Seven years later !

[macshit]

I attended his keynote to the developer community this morning, and quite frankly, I was amazed at the casual atmosphere and the low level of security.

Hmmm, maybe he liked that pie 7 years ago, and was kinda hoping for seconds...

Wonderfully secure I just bet.

[stephenisu]

How long do you think it will take some bored script kiddie to end up tracking everyone and watching the results like a bad game of the sims.

Is it really all that beneficial to have this securing mechanisms?

Either way I am not gonna complain unless this effects Belgian Beer production.

trusted computing

[necrognome]

$5 says this kind of thing (computer credentials linked to your "papers") finds its way into the various trusted computing initiatives...

Re:trusted computing

[laurensv]

well to be honest, there are packages for "untrusted" platforms, even an SDK kit, check it out here .

What About When...

[SpottedKuh]

...you don't want all that information following you? From TFA:

Just like the classical ID, the eID contains your photo, surname and first names, sex, nationality, place and date of birth, signature, national number as well as the validity period of the card.

Quite frankly, there are times I would like to use the Internet without all of that information following me around. There are sometimes online I just don't want to be identified! Even when I do want to be identified (using Canada as an example) the idea of even giving my SIN number to Microsoft sounds insane! I ccertainly wouldn't want that sort of sensitive information identifying me online. I'll stick to using my name...

Re:What About When...

[andr0meda]

You'll not be *giving* anything. The card links to government databases. The only thing that will happen is that your card announces your ID on the net. Dedicated pharmacy readers will be able to link it to your SIN data, the bank will link it to your bankaccount data, and the insurance company will be able to find the files on your insurances. Similarly, MS will be able to link it to it's profiles database. There is nothing 'given' to MS. Even your residence is NOT stored ON the card, only your date of birth, name, age and some extra stuff is stored ON the card, the rest is only accessible by linking ID's to (propriatary) databases.

Re:What About When...

[morzel]

You can still use the internet without all that information following you...

It is up to you to stick that card in the reader whenever you want to do something that requires authentication (e.g.: government issue).
The only reason Microsoft is in the picture is because:

• Bill Gates has been in the country for a visit
• Due to the perceived paedophile threat on the internet, some politicians wanted to give children (ID cards are required from age 12) and their parents a way to verify that their chat-friends are actually the age that they claim they are. MSN Messenger is the chat client that is used by most of the kids around here.

Other than the fact that we'll all have an electronic ID within 4 years time, this is mostly PR and marketing fluff for both government and Microsoft.

More?

[Bud]

Microsoft announced that they will integrate the electronic identification into the Windows Software so they can deliver more security and privacy on the internet.

So true, and yet so much marsh gas.

On one hand, it's hard to see how improving the user's authentication level would stop crackers and virus writers from breaking into Windows boxes.

On the other hand, given Microsoft's track record in internet security, it's hard to see how they could ever deliver less. Anything they do is sure to INCREASE the security level. And no, this is NOT funny.

--Bud

Passport+

[Transdimentia]

After the overwhelming success of Passport it was only a matter of time until this happened!

The new phishing schemes

[Ironsides]

Today I recieved an e-mail from my bank saying that they wanted to verify my new government ID with my bank acount information. All I had to do was to go to this site and have my reader scan my ID card. Gee, I'm sure glad my bank is tough on security.

Re:The new phishing schemes

[ultranova]

Don't blame your bank, it's just the newest e-mail scam.

Ok...

[Zaulden]

With these cards, if it'd be so easy to block certain chat rooms from kids, who's to say the government won't use them to block certain individuals from viewing certain web sites, either because of a certain background, or just plain racial profiling? Also, who is to say they won't require web site owners to register their sites via their card, and if upon review, their site is a risk to national security, take it down under the auspices of the Patriot Act?

Re:Ok...

[frederik.carlier]

Luckly we don't have the Patriot Act in Belgium :).

Even if Belgian ISP's would be required to authenticate users using an eID, then we would just use a foreign ISP, no?

Re:Ok...

[tepples]

then we would just use a foreign ISP, no?

Don't international phone calls cost more per minute?

damn microsoft

[jrushton]

you cant be serious this is awful. microsoft working with goverments, to make online id systems. "no im sorry, you need windows verifyor 1.0 to access the internet or you could do ANYTHING!"

Re:Does it matter?

[afd8856]

Thanks for the laughs :)

New Publisist?

[erwin]

Did Bill get a new PR firm? I've seem more Gates stories in the last week than most of last year? Is he trying to make a shift from IT Industrialist to High-Tech Cultural Pundit?

Looking at it from a marketing point of view, its like money in the bank for MS. Nothing like having your founder out there framing the next technological debate in terms of what you have coming out of the R&D lab.

Re:New Publisist?

[Eberlin]

If nothing else, MS is a great marketing company with the ability to spin their biggest flaws into everyone else's fault.

Just look at the ISP ads lately -- it's all about spam blockers, anti-virus, and other malware detectors. Can anyone turn around and say "hey, shouldn't Microsoft be the one responsible for cleaning this up?" Nope, the MS spin has created a marketing opportunity for ISPs -- "choose us 'cause we cover up THEIR crap better than our competitors!!!" Eh?

They've gone through anti-trust lawsuits both here and the UK. Gates has been "embarrassed" through malfunctioning presentations (BSODs, etc). Highly publicized flaws in the operating system being exploited. Oppressive DRM. The ol' bait-and-switch tactic with product releases (feature X will be the greatest...um, nope, won't have feature X due to time restrictions). Passport (one of their Dot-Net next-big-things) is going 404. They've launched smear campagins against Linux (cancer, communist, unsupported, etc.) Even after all that, they're still the biggest game in town.

Why is that? The best marketing money can buy.

When we come back...

[GillBates0]

``Mr. Gates has not requested to meet Mrs. Kroes and Mrs. Kroes is most certainly not going to request to see him,'' said Todd.

Why does Jonathan Todd want to keep Bill and Mrs. Kroes apart?

Why does Mrs. Kroes appear so pissed?

And is there a developing spark between Bill and Jon?

All this and more, when you join us after the break only on Channel 25.

Funniest thing I've read in weeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost spit my diet soda:

the Commission balked at ``Windows XP Reduced Media Edition ... the company is working with the EU on a suitable alternative.''

You have to admit, it takes some serious nerve to suggest "Reduced Media Edition." I wonder what the less inflammatory proposals will be. Some ideas:

• "Windows XP Eunuch Edition"
  
• "Windows XP Mute Edition"
  
• "Windows XP Shhhhh!"
  
• "Windows XP Barely Functioning Version,"
  
• "Windows XP's European Vacation,"
  
• "Windows XP Eurotrash"
  
• "Windows XPwerk"
  

Re:Funniest thing I've read in weeks

[advocate_one]

XP Full Fat = XP Pro
XP Semi-skimmed = XP Home Edition
XP Skimmed = XP Reduced media Edition

what's next? XP Lite

Re:Funniest thing I've read in weeks

[PPGMD]

Last time I checked, they can call it whatever they want, short of using a bad word.

Since I don't agree with the EU decision, calling it Reduced Media Edition, is an accurate name for it, and a swipe at the EU commission.

I think that the current method using the Default Program control panel, and allowing OEMs the options to bundle other media players, and to make them default if they want is better. What the EU wants, we might as well go back to Windows 95, when you spent 30 to an hour installing this program or that program, until finally you had a functional machine.

Re:Funniest thing I've read in weeks

[greenrd]

I think that the current method using the Default Program control panel, and allowing OEMs the options to bundle other media players, and to make them default if they want is better.

IIRC that was one of the few genuinely pro-competitive things that came out of the DoJ settlement. If it hadn't been for the court cases, MS would never have put even that in.

Re:Funniest thing I've read in weeks

[Anonymous Coward]

" Last time I checked, they can call it whatever they want, short of using a bad word."

Last I checked, they can't. Quote taken from the EU decision...

"Microsoft must refrain from using any commercial, technological or contractual terms that would have the effect of rendering the unbundled version of Windows less attractive"

Re:Funniest thing I've read in weeks

[BlacKat]

XP Low Carb = XP Starter Edition

You can only run so many bloated apps... ;)

Re:Funniest thing I've read in weeks

[wkitchen]

"Windows XP Eunuch Edition"

A truly brilliant marketing move. Dirty, but brilliant. Now when Joe Sixpack hears geeks talking about how stable and secure Unix is, he'll run out and buy XP.

Re:Funniest thing I've read in weeks

[PPGMD]

So in effect they don't want the users to see, that they are mandating a worse product onto the consumers?

The DoJ settlement with the Default Program Access Control Panel is a much better way to allow Microsoft the freedom to develop it's product, but at the same time, allowing OEM's, and computer users to select which programs they want to use out of the box.

Wait... I saw this movie...

[the_skywise]

This is a remake of "The President's Analyst" isn't it?

(Where The Phone Company tries to take over the world by implanting a phone in everybody's skull so they can make calls any time and any where... and be tracked...)

Note to Bill:

[El_Smack]

Don't leave any doodles lying around this time.
-S. Balmer

Re:excuse me ?

[DrJonesAC2]

Ummm.... not trying to troll (and hope you are not as well) but when did IBM kill 6 million jews? How will Microsoft do the same?

What's with all the MS/Bill news today?

[bersl2]

Is today International Assimilation Day or something?

Id cards

[Turn-X Alphonse]

No one wants them, why the hell "must" everything now require an ID? The ONLY time an ID card should be present is if you're using a public terminal or information which needs to be kept secret is around. Other wise I don't want the spammers to know my name, address and other things.

Keep ID cards to where they are needed to prove who you are, other wise leave me alone. If you need to know who I'am then I will tell you, all you need to know online is I can type and my user ID is [whatever site I'm on's username].

them!

[tchernobog]

What's more important Microsoft announced that they will integrate the electronic identification into the Windows Software so they can deliver more security and privacy on the internet.

That means that _they_ will have the personal infos of zillions of users? Oh well. Just when I thought that governments put their nose in our affairs a little too much, M$ comes to the rescue.

<whispering> So my infos will be just a secret between Bill & me? How romantìk!

Bound to happen..

[beldraen]

The Earth's most hated pejorative (Bill Gates) linked to the universe's (Belgium)... Go figure.

Gates interviewed by Belgian TV

[andr0meda]

In short the reported asked Gates (among other things) why Microsft would be backing an e-ID card initiative, and why it is the Belgian card that won his attention. Gates replied that Microsft wanted to back the card because it is a way to make Microsoft products on the internet safer and more secure. He said that it would help protect minors from abuse in certain chatboxes and forums, to protect their private data on personal blogs, and to regulate and make traceable the actions of each registered individual. When asked if cardless users would be excluded, his answers remained somewhat vague, saying the MSN services would still be available but probably without certain features. He said Belgium is a leader on the market of smartcards, but admitted that the card would not prevent hackers from trying to engage in malicious - illegal, in his words - practices, cracking security and stealing personal data. The Bel. secratary of state who introduced the eID to MS said the card does not bring ultimate safety, but protects minors to a large extend from 'all the bad things on the internet', and that it also gives parrents a chance to monitor the actions on the net of their kids. He said that PC systems in Belgium would come with integrated card-readers.

One question that springs to mind, is if open source will have the opportunity to work with the same system. I can imagine the windows platform getting significantly more secure for minors, and thus interesting for parrents who usually buy the first PC. If Linux systems are left in the dark and can not tap into the world of protect customers, this can mean a serious set-back for any aspirations the platform may have, you know, conquering the desktop and all that jazz..

Re:Gates interviewed by Belgian TV

[MaynardJanKeymeulen]

As I said in other posts
and as it was discussed on be.comp.os.linux
the things are fully linux supported.

Re:Gates interviewed by Belgian TV

[andr0meda]

The card would be available to kids aged 12 and up. This is indeed a bit neglective.. kids of age 6 and up can already browse faster than their dog, but it`s not exactly 21 years like you put it..

There`s nothing wrong with being you at heart of course :)

Another reason...

[skinfitz]

...to not use Windows.

Don't Run. Don't Run while you still can.

it wont be bothering me for atleast 3 years

[Anonymous Coward]

since i have a rather recent classic paper ID
but i guess i should start looking for a lead lined wallet.

funny thing on the train a lady was asked for her ID
she only had one of those new ones. train personel had no way of cheking the info on the eID twas quite funny how they kept going on how she needed to have papers proving she was she along with the eID.

anyway this seems to be the perfect software for market research, now you are certain who it is that is looking at websites about what ever.
A nice reminder that i should be ashamed to be belgian, almost forgot becauze of the US bashings that have been going on lately

Re:it wont be bothering me for atleast 3 years

[laurensv]

being a Belgian as well, I feel your pain, new cards are 4 times as expensive as the old ones and only last for half their time (5 years to 10), and for the time being you have to have a paper with you with your adress and stuff because most administrations can't read the card
oh and Billy boy said it was "the most secure identityverifaction Microsoft ever saw ".

Running on a special appliance

[Alien54]

so that it doesn't have to run windows

Ties with Microsoft

[DennisZeMenace]

I'm a belgian citizen, and I'm really concerned about this. I don't like where this is going, public governments should never have close ties (especially technological ones) with a specific company. What this means is, in the future belgian citizens who don't run Windows will be 2nd class citizens (can't file their taxes online, can't use online services, etc...). That's just plain terrible, what a shame.

DZM

Re:Ties with Microsoft

[MaynardJanKeymeulen]

They are supported by all sorts of unixes, check this site, you can find drivers for the reader in java, for windows, linux, solaris, macOSx etc...

Re:Ties with Microsoft

[Space El Hombre]

You shouldn't be that worried, The main key players in the security of the card are Banksys and Ubizen
As you may know (or not), Banksys does bank security stuff etc... and Ubizen is one of the world leaders when it comes to securing data.

I'm from Belgium

[MaynardJanKeymeulen]

These eID cards aren't all that bad.
Here in Belgium we are obligated to carry normal ID cards with us, so if those become one with a chip in them, it doesn't make that much a difference.

If you don't want to use it for identifying with msn, so don't.
On the other hand, they are fully supported on all sorts of unixes, so they might be handy to login your own system or whatsoever.

It's not like they're equiped with some sort of rfid so govmnt can track wherever you are.

Re:I'm from Belgium

[Raistlin77]

It's not like they're equiped with some sort of rfid so govmnt can track wherever you are.

You missed a key word that should heve ended that statement... "yet"

A warning for the UK...

[maidhc]

I guess being /. this is like preaching to the converted, but this proposal is surely a stern warning for all those who see ID cards as something benign and useful that cannot impact on their day to day lives.

Why is it for some reason everything, be it national security, convenience for civil servants etc etc etc gets considered before privacy in issues such as National ID cards. Surely, as illustrated by the many valient efforts at DRM the technical ability is there to produce a modern doucment to validate ID and also protect privacy.

When we hear PR speak about DRM its all about how hard it is to crack etc etc etc, why cant the same technology be employed to control access to an ID card, and PREVENT unauthorised access?

The UK (and those who still have time) should resist ID card proposals, if they wish to remain free of these really scary proposals.

Im off to room 101 now.....

Re:A warning for the UK...

[CmdrGravy]

I suspect ( hope any rate ) that now Mr Blunkett has been removed that the I.D. scheme will be gradually shuffled off into obscurity and dumped.

I am convinced that once the general population realise the exact details of the scheme being proposed they will change their minds and thoroughly reject the idea.

Most people at the moment tend to think "Oh well, I have nothing to hide so an I.D. card is probably a good thing". However when you point out to them that they will be paying for this card out of their own pocket and the numerous other disadvantages they soon change their minds.

CSI episode

[ePhil_One]

There was a recent CSI:Miami episode which implied women were getting embedded RFID chips with their Credit Card numbers so they didn't need their purses to go out for the night (theft proof).

Anyone know if that sort of tech is really in use? I know CSI is infamous for insane tech, but that usually in the crime solving, not in the day to day stuff. Just Curious...

Re:CSI episode

[Thud457]

Nah, I just made that shit up!

Re:CSI episode

[BlakeLupa]

There was a recent CSI:Miami episode which implied women were getting embedded RFID chips with their Credit Card numbers... Anyone know if that sort of tech is really in use?

CNN had on a special called Top 25: Innovations. The long version of the show wasn't bad. It had a list of the top 25 technology innovations of the past 25 year. The list was compiled by MIT. One of the moderators clamed he a RFID implanted in his forearm only for use in retrieving medical data. RFID's were number 10 on the list. They have the cost of the RFIDs they use in products for Wal-mart down to near 10 cents now.

At the risk of redundancy

[StalinsNotDead]

This article should get the award for the most gratuitous uses of the word Belgium.

Windows XP Barely Functioning Version

[Prototerm]

Microsoft has reserved this name for the Longhorn release.

Re:Stupid Belgians...

[andr0meda]

Well, it seems the Dutch don't have those "stupid Belgians" jokes for nothing...

Really, I used to think it was just stupid stereotyping, but it looks like it's all true :-(


Everyone his opinion, but this is flamebait. You come and live here, before you pretend to think you know it all. I've worked for 3 years in TheNetherlands, and I'm Belgian. I think I can make the comparission much better than you. But maybe you can explain to me why the North of Belgium is practically invaded by Dutch (and rich) immigrants. I'm sure *you* can tell me..

Re:Does it matter?

[Odin's Raven]

Distributing a card with a chip with a unique ID? I didn't think Borg cared about uniqueness when it came to assimilation?

Of course they care! Post-assimilation is when you need a unique ID. Otherwise, how would you know if you're "Seven of Nine", "Six of One", or "Half Dozen of the Other"?

Manual vs. Electronic

[morzel]

For those countries that require ID, just why is the manual system that has been in place suddenly no good any more?

Horse and carriage were also good in their days, but cars are much more convenient nowadays.

There are a couple of reasons why electronic IDs are being introduced:

• Counterfeiting IDs will be (nearly) impossible, due to the fact that all IDs have to be signed by the central government. No more reproducing/stealing blanks to get a fake ID.
• Currently your address data is printed on the ID card, which means getting a new ID whenever you move. Also the refresh rate for IDs is lower due to the fact that all data (including your picture) is on the chip and can be renewed.
• You will have a way to identify yourself online and use the internet for things you currently can only do in meatspace (government papers, official mails, taxes, ...); with a limited risk for identity theft (one would require access to the physical ID + a pass phrase)

I don't see why this is such a bad thing. Yes, we (I'm Belgian) will be on the cutting (bleeding?) edge w.r.t. the electronic ID technology, but there are actual benefits for us as well (not just the government).

Re:Manual vs. Electronic

[El Neepo]

Yeah, but the system is from Microsoft.

I'm sure the securities you describe will be full of holes just judging from past systems Microsoft has designed.

Re:Manual vs. Electronic

[morzel]

The system is not from Microsoft

The only reason Microsoft is in the picture is because Bill Gates was visiting Belgium, and one of the ministers over here dreamed up a plan for using the ID to create chatrooms where only authenticated Belgian minors can enter. There is a perceived threat from paedophiles who are raiding chatrooms to chat up youngsters over here...
Since MSN Messenger is the most used chat client for this age group in Belgium, Microsoft wants to extend MSN messenger to allow just for this kind of authentication.

All in all: it's just marketing fluff from Microsoft and some politicians...

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[mmkkbb]

xenophobia moderated insightful and informative. NICE.

But it does run linux!

[Anonymous Coward]

On the bright side: there are drivers for the card reader for linux, solaris, Mac, ... source code too!

http://www.belgium.be/zip/middleware_source_code_n l.html
http://www.registrenational.fgov.be/bev_nl/bev_n_d ispatcher.htm

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[GtKincaid]

I agree whole heartedly this seems like nothing more than xenophobic flamebait.. perhaps i am being too harsh , but replace western with white and you will see what i mean. A country is the people and those who live there are the country. The parent is blatent flamebait .

Belgian commenting

[WaZiX]

Well, im belgian, and this eID is actually a great advance for us, we will be able to fill out tax forms and other administrative forms, maybe vote and in the future us this eID as authentification for buying prescription drugs (yeah we get most of our medical costs paid for). It also solves a lot of problems between the different language communities we have around here, since a frenchman in flanders (where they speak dutch) could fill out his forms in french. This might seem a stupid problem but it has been a pretty huge on in belgium the last couple of years.

As for M$ using this to authenticate on their services? why not, as long as anyone can use our eID to guarantee some kind of secure log-in/transaction im 100% for it. I very much doubt Belium would let a foreign company take the monopoly of their eID market, im sure all they are trying to do is develop some kind of platform onto which outside companies could use our system.

Indeed this will mean that with time, you could make sure your Credit card could only be used by you (or anyone who stole your card, has an untracable card reader device AND has your 4 digit pin code). This of course makes online transactions much safer.

The only reason i see that Bill gates decided to integrate this to MSN messenger is because thats exactly the type of product that Billy loves (hence his introduction of similar cards in his company.)

So anyways, eID is great, that MS endorses it is not bad at all, as long as the procedure to endorse our future system will not be an MS product.

Re:Belgian commenting

[Nate Eldredge]

I'm curious. What does the eID actually do? Does it actually have cryptographic smarts in it, or is it just the same old data from the old ID, only designed in such a way as to be read out electronically? Does it require authentication (from you or the interrogator) before divulging?

A smart card which contained a private key and could generate signatures would be outstanding. It would severely reduce fraud and "identity theft". I hate the fact that the current US standard way of proving your identity is to use your Social Security number. I'm sure there are hundreds of people who *legitimately* know mine (landlords, bank, government and university employees, etc) and any of them could take out credit in my name if they decided to turn evil.

Re:Belgian commenting

[mce]

It holds an electronic/digital signature.

Yep, I'm Belgian too. I also hate the idea of the thing. Before we know it, they will be pushing (and later: forcing) us to do all sorts of stuff online. That alone is enough for me to hate it. But with some bad luck, of which there is plenty around, they'll also buy into some M$ technology that not only forces us to fill out taxforms online, but also to use Windows while we're doing it. Bad, bad, bad.

But then again, I'm active in micro-electronics research (i.e. I'm one of the people who help make this possible) and yet I refuse to even buy a cell phone. So maybe it's just me being weird...

Re:Belgian commenting

[Space El Hombre]

I'm curious. What does the eID actually do? Does it actually have cryptographic smarts in it, or is it just the same old data from the old ID, only designed in such a way as to be read out electronically? Does it require authentication (from you or the interrogator) before divulging? All data is by default encrypted on the chip. There is no magnetic strip like on credit cards. The chip is commonly used all over the world and very secure. However, the security depends on the encryption. If I'm not mistaken, the current encryption is 128 (or higher) bits. I cannot say the exact type of encryption, but I assume it's the best around. And the most important, you need a 4 digit pin code to access the data on the chip. For now, you still need a paper with the eID card with your curent residence on it, but all data that is a fact (like date of birth and so) is stored on the card. The purpose of this eID card is to manage easily different types of information at different places. Just bring in the card in a (special) reader, and all needed info can be retrieved in the reader's system. MS has nothing to do with the eID card, Bill just likes it, and sees it as an opportunity for additional security. If you don't want to use it, leave it in your wallet. Just see this as a different way of smart card authentication. In one of the earlier comments, it was also pointed out that this chip can be used for lots of things: cell phone cards, proton (the electronic cash we can store on our bank cards), phone cards, SIS cards (for our social security), and many other things... (ex-)US marines can actually know the proton thing, it was (or still is) distributed in the late 90's among soldiers, for use on there base for making payments of small amounts. The chip has a proven security and will continue to spread around the world. You can actually buy empty smart cards, with a chip, and program those chips yourself. On a personal base, I do not like the eID card. I just don't like the government and all that's associated with it :) But I do see the advantages of such a card in terms of security (and certainly identity theft). Sven, Belgian citizen

Re:Belgian commenting

[ElfKnight]

Well, im belgian, and this eID is actually a great advance for us, we will be able to fill out tax forms and other administrative forms, maybe vote and in the future us this eID as authentification for buying prescription drugs (yeah we get most of our medical costs paid for).

Funny, I can fill out tax forms and collect medicines just fine without an ID card already.

It also solves a lot of problems between the different language communities we have around here, since a frenchman in flanders (where they speak dutch) could fill out his forms in french.

What's language translation got to do with ID cards?

Indeed this will mean that with time, you could make sure your Credit card could only be used by you (or anyone who stole your card, has an untracable card reader device AND has your 4 digit pin code).

Or anyone who installs a trojan onto your PC to incercept the electronic credentials, probably.

Re:Belgian commenting

[sentenzux]

I wonder how they will manage technical integration and licensing issues... Have a look at the software kit documention and you'll see that it is provided for MS and Linux. The license explicitly specify Third party licenses that apply and the first of these is the...GPL

Time to develop a Jabber extension and get public attention, as fear of pedophilia is a "psychological issue" in the country that has suffered the Dutroux Case. People are REALLY paying attention to chatroom issues, and providing a secure verification of age can be considered a top feature in this case.

Just my 2 cents... Note: I'm french and live in belgium for three years.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[Xaer0cool]

I am a Belgian citizen, studying in the US... so I guess I can reply to both angles of your post. It is true that Belgian has a large, mostly northern African, immigrant population. We allow foreigners with five years of residency to vote. So they do wield significant political power, but this is not necessarily a bad thing as you seem to insinuate. I have no idea what you mean by, "accelerating destruction of Western values and Western society", because values are not something the government should be involved with in the first place. However, there are a bunch of people who think along your lines, and they have formed the 'Vlaams blok' (http://vlaamsblok.be/site_engels_index.shtml if you want the English site). It is an anti-immigration party. It was recently declared illegal due to anti-racism laws. Immigration does cause many problems, and even though I don't support vlaams blok type thinking, I'm reasonably sure they will win an election in the near future. And it will be a good thing, because they will mess things up so badly that they wont gain support in the future, and in the meantime things will finally be fixed without going to either extreme. If you are really that worried about high (US-) educated foreigners staying in the US and destroying your precious western civilization... don't worry too much, we already have much stricter controls on us than the Belgian citizens in the article do. We have to pay for the government to track us (SEVIS), we get fingerprinted and photographed upon arrival in the US, we have to check in at the start of every year, and to do any work at all we need more approval than Michael Moore has here in Berkeley.

Gates in Belgium

[merc]

Were there any cream pies thrown in his face this time?

Error in Belgium.dll

[NecroPuppy]

A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent damage
to your country.

Belgium.dll ERROR

If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart your country. If this screen appears again, follow these steps:

Check to make sure any new government is properly installed.

If this is a new installation, ask your electorate
for any Windows updates you might need.

If problems continue, disable or remove any newly installed government. Disable government options such as democracy or socialism.
If you need to use Feudalism to remove or disable components, restart your country, press F8 to select Advanced Startup Options, and then
select Feudalism.

Technical information:
*** STOP: 0x0000004e (0x00000099, 0x00000000, 0x00000000, 0x00000000)

Beginning dump of physical memory
Physical memory dump complete.
Contact your system administrator or technical support group for further assistance.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[HeghmoH]

You're a total wacko. Maybe you didn't notice, but it was the foreign immigrants who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the foreign immigrants who built the US into the world superpower that it is. If immigration were going to destroy the country, it would have done so by now.

Poor Belgians...

[Yaa 101]

It's bad enough being forced by your government to have a id card... Now they have to put up with identity theft and can't even do a thing about it... This MS Cancer is growing too big for this worlds own good...

Sounds like SoFiNet to me...

[Pflipp]

Years ago, I introduced a little concept called SoFiNet, which would be an instant messenger/ personalized DNS service based on the Dutch Social/ Fiscal number.

I never quite got into implementing the concept, but I see Microsoft is getting on to me here. Don't know if I can invalidate any of their patents now...

The whole idea was meant to be ironic, and to display the abuse of what originally was a fiscal personal ID. Somehow I've got the idea that Microsoft (as usual) didn't get the irony :-)

[tt]:CSI episode

[tomhudson]

Of course it's made up.

Everyone knows they were having their speed pass chips injected along with the colagen implants.

Seriously, silicone breast implants now come with rfid tags so that they can more readily be identified in case of problems with a particular production run or model, since about 1/4 of all new boobies are still silicone, despite health concerns. All you have to do is agree to 5 years of monitoring here and here for examples.

So now you don't have to guess - just get a remote reader (but that takes all the fun out of it).

Re:[tt]:CSI episode

[eno2001]

RFID tags in silicone breast implants is completely logical. Let's see if folks can follow my line of thinking here:

1. The women most likely to have silicone breast implants are... trophy wives. (AKA Stepford Wives)
2. Trophy wives gain their status by renouncing their independence and agreeing to a fiscal union (ie. being bought and sold by rich men) with a wealthy man
3. Therefore trophy wives are property
4. It is important to keep track of your property when you are a property owner. What better way to do it than RFID?

QED: Breast implant MUST have RFID by the very nature of what they represent and who is interested in them

Re:[tt]:CSI episode

[Thud457]

If I'm paying that kind of money, I want some sort of LoJack(tm) system where I can remotely shutoff the ignition if some young punk's taking her for a joyride!

Parent is trolling...

[morzel]

While some consider us to have a big portion of immigrants, it is less than 10% of the actual population.
The fraction of immigrants in political and official functions is miserably low, less than 1%; most political parties are simply not catering for immigrants.

What is happening in Belgium, with its accelerating destruction of Western values and Western society, is merely a foreshadowing of what will happen to the USA if we do not control our borders.

Perhaps we have completely different views of what "Western values and Western society" is, perhaps you're just trolling, or it just might be that you're just a narrowminded xenophobe. Don't forget that not too long ago you were also an immigrant.

I fear for the future of America.

At least something we agree on ;-)

My thoughts.

[pavon]

Hehe. I started this post when the story was still in the mysterious future and it kept growing till, now when most everyone has already moved onto the next story. Oh well, might as well post it and this thread is as good of a spot as any.

I would actually be in favor of a Smart-card ID - especially if the citizen ID was just one uses of a generic smart card authentication system. The use of Social Security Numbers is inherently insecure. Every authentication system needs a public identifier, and at least one secret key. But as things stand right now SSN are treated as both an identifier and a key - it is impossible to be both public and secret simultaneously! It is scary how many institutions act as though anyone who can rattle off my SSN. Something like this could greatly decrease potential for identity theft and fraud, and frankly I don't think it will decrease my privacy any (more on that later).

Suppose you had a smart card which contained a readable id and public key, an non-readable private key (encrypted with a passcode), and a small amount of processing power. When you need to authenticate yourself, you would place the card in a a drive, and enter your passcode. The person requesting authentication would generate a challenge using the public key, and the drive would pass the challenge and passcode to the smart-card. The card would then use the private key to generate a response.

The nice thing about the smart-card doing the processing is that the private key would never leave the card. In fact, the user would not have to know anything about public/private keys (unlike PGP). And it follows the good policy of "something you have" (the card), "something you know" (the passcode), and could easily include the option of "something you are" (biometrics) for high security applications. But even without the biometrics, this would be infinitely more secure than SSN, more secure than a credit card or ATM, and on par with PGP signatures.

Then imagine that this is a standard authentication system - you have a card to authenticate that you are Citizen 123-45-678 for government programs, another to authenticate that you are VISA Card Holder 1111-2222-3333-4444 for purchases, another to authenticate that you are user on domain for login authentication, and yet another to authenticate that you are user@domain.com for signing and decrypting email. If there was a standard, there is no reason that the drive could not be built into all computers, greatly increasing the security of online financial transactions, and finally creating a user-friendly mechanism for encrypted communications.

In short it would solve a great deal of the security issues (or at least technical aspects thereof) that our rush into the digital world has created. Of course all the social engineering exploits are still there, and so we should never operate on the assumption that the system is infallible.

Now privacy. I don't like giving out my social security number more than anyone else. I have gone through great trouble to not give it to people that do not need it. But even so, there are a huge number of organizations that are entitled to it by law, and have a legitimate need for my personal information. Which brings up the real crux of the government privacy issue in my opinion: We asked the government to take care of our retirement, so they need some information to do that job. We asked the government to provide medical care and drug coverage for the elderly, so they need to know my medical record. We asked the government for all sorts of benefits and exceptions in the tax code, so they need to know the nitty-gritty details of my financial life. We asked the government to help pay for college, so they need to know even more information. And now people want to ask the government to provide everyone healthcare and that will erode my privacy even more. I have an idea - if we don't want the government to know everything about us how about we stop asking it to do everything for us. Until then all this cry for privacy

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[frederik.carlier]

Now I live in Belgium. Why a post like this gets an 'Interesting' score goes beyond my mind. First of all, Belgium indeed does have a rather big foreign population. Saying that the foreign population exceeds the native one is just plain absurd. Last time I checked the stats it's not near there at all. You might want to double-check you facts and question your 'reputable analyst'. The eID is not related to this at all, though. The Belgium government is going to a long process of modernizing the administration. That includes, for example, filling out your tax form on-line. The eID card merely is a step in this process to make the goverment more accessible (from your home!) to all Belgian citizens. Let me start off with saying that we already have an electronic social security card, which has been in use for quite a while and is broadly accepted. There's quite a lot of sensitive data on the social security card, but that's why the card readers have built in security: you don't want your local pharmacy to access the list of last visits to your doctor, for example. The purpose of the eID is to facilitate e-government. You can, for example, use the eID card to fill out your tax form on-line. The eID card is also secured by the traditional PIN code, so it's as safe as, let's say, your bank card. Needless to say that if you loose it you can cancel it - you just go to the closest police station. I'd like to add as well that if you don't want to use your eID, then don't. It's still the traditional ID as well and if you don't want to use it with your computer, then don't! Thus: there is no violation of privacy: you need a ID card anyway, it just comes with a chip these days. If you don't want to use this chip outside of your contact with the government, then don't. You still have full control over your privacy, so there's nothing to worry about. Your comment based on some personal views and do not at all reflect the real reasoning behind the Belgian eID. One more sidenote: the Parlement had a short session with Bill Gates and the MP's did ask him quite some questions about open source software. Just to show you that our government is interested in Open Source Software as well. Have a nice day.

First MSN Messenger and now [tt]his

[eno2001]

I tell you, the world is going to hell thanks to Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer's illegitimate moon child Windows. Back in the days of yore (about two years ago) I was using MSN Messenger to communicate with my intarweb pals. Then someone told me that M$ wanted to claim ownership of what I wrote in MSN Messenger. No! I didn't believe it. I figured that this had to be some kind of GNU Hippy Commie FUD lie. But I read the fine print myself and sure enough, Micro$haft owns anything you happen to write in MSN Messenger. So I stopped using MSN Messenger. Now they want to start interfereing in personal IDs? This is wrong wrong wrong!!! Can you imagine? Micronut$ would own YOUR IDENTITY! I'll bet there is fine print legalese that says that by using the ID, you promise to never do anything contrary to Micro$uck's wishes. The GNU hippies were right! I personally reject all that is Micro$oft as being invalid and declare myself a sovereign computer operator! If I can't buy and sell things as the bible tells of Bill Gates and his Beast system, then I prefer to starve to death than wear the mark of Bill (Satan) Gates!!! They'll never take me alive!!! NEVER!!!! NEVER!!!! They're going to have to pry my GNU/Linux system from my cold dead fingers.

These OSes DON'T RUN!!! (Linux, *BSD, *nix, Mac OS X) Err... wait.

If they really want to help....

[Trailer Trash]

Microsoft announced that they will integrate the electronic identification into the Windows Software so they can deliver more security and privacy on the internet.

If their goal is to delivery more security and privacy to the internet, they need to remove the tcp/ip functionality of their operating systems.

Yellow Peril?

[jimbro2k]

This has been discussed as a US issue before (ca. 1890).
Apart from the fact that the influx of "furriners" undeniably did not prevent the US from becoming a world power, genuine diversity seems (arguably) to have been a source of some of the nation's power.
More importantly, It is not your call. Or mine. Democracy, by definition, must contain the potential for its own replacement, or it is not democracy. If you don't like the idea of 'western' democracy, then you don't need the 'slopes', 'darkies', 'wogs' et al to destroy Western values and society.
I would point out that whatever G.Bush's many faults, he is right to observe that other countries (many non-'western') seem to be adopting the so-called 'western' values at an accellerating rate. The Al Qeida certainly believe this and is the main source of their hatred of the west.

Re:Yellow Peril?

[deaddrunk]

And has nothing to do with years of oppression from the US and its allies? It's the attempt to impose western values that is being resisted, not the values themselves. If your government used its influence with Israel and the vicious Saudi dictatorship to effect positive change rather than giving them money to continue the oppression, you might get better results.

With one major caveat of course

[IBitOBear]

You have the privacy of the key and the door lock but your issuing authority has the ability to make another copy of the key "from their records" and unlock any door you have locked.

Contrapositively, any guy who muggs you and takes your house key isn't suddenly "you", but the same mugger who takes your ID is suddenly "you" "to the system" and will leave vapor-trail evidence of you-ness behind him as he goes.

Now if your ID card can't be authoratatively canceled and replaced then the thiefs access is total an perpetual. If it *can* be canceled and replaced, then the replacement ID still has to act as the "key" to open "the door". This, in turn, means that there is some fineite or infinite number of keys that can open your "door" because all of the old locked stuff needs to recognize every future permutation of your key.

Either that, or this is Palladium again, where there is nothing magical about the key and it is all in some central database that is actively scanned for each transaction, and so acts as real-time monitoring of the "identified" persons.

So, really, absolutely no privacy or completely illusitory security.

Re:With one major caveat of course

[rem1313]

Electronic ID card primariliy is a means to reliably authenticate anyone in electronic communication just like a passport in physical world.

Secondly, it is also a means to electronically sign documents as a replacement for physical pen-and-ink signatures.

It is based on public key cryptography, and private keys are generated on tamper-resistant smart-card and never leave the card (by smart card design). Governmet issues a certificate (signed by gov. CA) that confirm your identity and association with your private key (your public key is included in certificate). The microchip on the card provides functions that enable use of private keys such as signing hashes, etc (but never retrieval).

The authentication and signature functions are seperated and protected by different PIN numbers (or biometric data).

As a result, a variety of services can be put online that could never be possible without a _highly reliable_ means of authentication of individuals. Examples are government services: tax declarations, access to state registers, communication with government, e-voting, etc.

Using signatory function you could prepare and sign contracts, submit formal applications and sign them elecronically. It will provide such assurances as non-repudiation, integrity (nobody can claim that you didn't sign it and your signature is automatically invalidated if document integrity is compromised). And by law, public sector organizations are obliged to accept such documents.

If the card gets lost or stolen, the certificates are blacklisted and as a result access to online services is blocked. Certification service provider also provides a means to verify if such and such certificate was valid at certain time. Time-stamping services are also possible.

If you think about it, nobody forces you to use it, but once implemented and opportunities appear, the possibilities are endless. Your identity is protected by PIN codes and without your consent, the information available (and collectable) is very limited.

Sure, it might be a bumpy road in the begining, especially because the average user probably does not realize the importance of actually protecting his online identity, but once technology matures, users get educated and more services appear, life will become much more easier.

And imagine time saved when dealing with, for example, governmental institutions - no standing in lines to fill out some form or fill in tax declarations, etc. And it is cost and time benefits are realized on the other end too - if e.g. tax declarations are submitted electronically then nobody needs to go over each and every one and retype to get them into database for later processing. It could be done automatically.

Actually, i'm writing b.sc. thesis regarding impelmentation of electronic identity and signature in Latvia - so anyone has valuable comments, please don't hesitate to contact me :) rem[at]fabrika[dot]lv

You might want to check out Estonia, which has implemented the eID project and they have issued some 700,000 ID cards with electronic functions on them. Pretty impressive.

Re:With one major caveat of course

[IBitOBear]

Yes, and the government will get all that straight, never link your old ID to you new ID once the old one is stolen, and _absolutely_ _never_ think of coordinating your data and charging you with arson because someone used your phone number to by an accelerant at Safeway on the same day that you bought a book on fire-safety using your computer.

Imagine the time you could save when the asshat that just punched you in the face and took your wallet uses your ID, withouth standing in line, to painlessly rent a car and cut it up for parts and then forward all your mail to the Costa Rica. You can land straight in debit all without having to fill in a single form!

Oh wait! There's a PIN. Nobody could get a PIN out of someone by shoulder-surfing or the threat of physical violence, if they could they'd have come up with a special name for shoulder-surfing instead of just the generic term.

The happy friendly government workers would be more than happy to cancel your ID and issue you a new one, without waiting in line (because we don't need lines any more) and it would happen so fast and reliably that nobody would ever have a chance to mis-use the stolen card or get your current one canceled by calling in a false fraud report. And all you have to do is pop out of your hospital bed, scamper down to the instant-service government ID office, prove who you are wihtout any ID, and you'll be back out on the street. A happy consumer, ready to figure out where the chop-shop has parked your shiny new Mercedies.

And of course biometrics would solve those pesky problems. If someone _did_ hack your card, you only have to change your retnia, or grow a new thumb with a new an dunique thumbprint to replace the one they cut off.

===

These simple model ideas people bandy about have no basis in the way the world works when things go wrong. To paraphrase from motorcycle safety: "dress for the crash, not the ride." The quesiton is _NEVER_ really about how to make the smooth-running things run smoother. It's supposed to be about how the problems get resolved.

"Loss Prevention" is aobut compartmentalization. We back up the data we don't want to lose. (we do don't we?) and we don't hang our drivers license from our car/house keyring. We have our birth certificate and copies of important papers, and a photo-copy of our drivers license safely stowed away in case we are mugged. etc.

Piling all that stuff into one easily lost device is FARGING STOOOPID.

If you have never tried to get your drivers license re-issued after being mugged then you have *no* *clue* how bad an idea this one-card-does-it-all nonsense really is.

Step one: get home without any money
Step two: get into your onw house with no keys and no ID
(etc.)

===

See, it's great that you have this public key crypto thing happening with your card and your pin and maybe your biometrics. But when your unique (anonymous?) ID is lost, stolen, run through the washer, or eaten by your 14-month-old how are you gong to get *back* everything that was "safe" and is now "lost"?

How do you then prevent an identity thief from doing to your live card the exact same thing you just proposed doign to replace your dead one?

If you have to use your card and a PIN or a biometric reader, what makes you think you won't be standing in lines to access the interface just like you never stand in line today while the bufoon in front of you is trying to figure out how to use the Club Card and their Check Card at the same time down at the supermarket? (look only two PINs to get your groceries! [because your banking and your shopping functions are compartmentalized remember?])

And if the same device is used to do all this private and government stuff, the government is going to want to control the private-stuff technology to prevent the private-stuff applications from working to cross purposes with the government-stuff.

Then the average clod user is going to have to know how to activ

Re:With one major caveat of course

[rem1313]

You are totally missing the point.

I never said the system is perfect or totally secure, it is merely an extension of current physical identity and signatory functions to electronic medium in such way that they have the same legal effect. Once again: (1) secure and reliable authentication and (2) signatory functions.

Think of it as a passport and pen-and-ink signature. Your passport can be stolen and used fraudulently and your signature can be faked quite easily. Just as you could be physically tortured to sign some documents, just as well you could be tortured to reveal your PIN and then use your eID card to sign them afterwards. Just as in the former case any court will rule your signature invalid, and the same applies in the latter case when document is signed electronically.

In the same good old physical world, the government still tracks your activities when communicating with public sector organizations, when you fill your tax declarations, fill out forms, etc. The information of course will be logged when you knowingly choose to authenticate yourself electronically - no principal difference here.

I never mentioned that the card is also used for shopping and not even close to also enlisting the items bought. Currently if you use any credit card, the shop already knows your name and what you bought - so nothing changes here. If you are paranoid - use cash. Period.

So nothing really changes in principle, just the way how transactions are done.

Re:With one major caveat of course

[Rehapapp]

Additional information about Estonian ID-card can be found from http://www.sk.ee/pages.php/0203

Re:With one major caveat of course

[IBitOBear]

The problem is that, among other things, if someone tortured you to sign a paper the corruption of self is limited.

If someone tortures you for your PIN, they then are you as far as the system is concerned and can use that PIN to "sign contracts" at places like car dealerships without dragging your bleeding carcass in to sign the papers. The exposure is, thereby, _much_ greater once you imbue this chip with proxy-youness for all sorts of unbounded contractual purposes.

And machines can't tell the difference between you and ersatz-you either.

And on the average you cannot be shoulder-surfed for a perfect copy of your signature (the way you can for a PIN/password) either.

So an all of the convenience of an single/central electronic ID doesn't just benefit the authorized ID holder, it equally or even disporportionately works to help the fradulent user. It also single-sources the problems reducing the breadth of the paper trail in the case of fraud.

Finally nobody can "deprive me access to my own signature by stealing it". If it becomes normal to use/require the digital ID then simple damage/theft would "temporarily" deprive you of basic citizenship until you could get it replaced etc.

As I said, its about compartmentalization and loss prevention. Put too much power on any one kind of access (and automate it too extensively) and it becomes a great gaping hole of problems.

And (IMHO) you are missing *that* point.

Re:Does it matter?

[lucabrasi999]

how would you know if you're "Seven of Nine", "Six of One", or "Half Dozen of the Other"?

Well, "Seven of Nine" has the huge knockers. After her, who cares what the rest of them are called?

There are nuances

[Arrawa]

When I first read the message, my faced turned red. But after looking deeper into the matter, it might be not so bad.

First of all: the eID is there, with open standards. Microsoft is just the first big company that announces a use of it.

The idea of securing chatrooms is, well, a bit strange. But the eID, as the Belgs call it, does allow stuff like electronic voting and online exams, can enhance online banking, doing online business or logging into the server of your work.

The card itself is platform independent. Software for the cardreader is available for Mac, Java and even Linux. There is rather extensive guide (although written in 2003) for using the card together with for example Mozilla (pdf in dutch). Actually, they have made a four-languaged site about the eID

There are catches of course. The Belgs have to look out for identitytheft, although there is a hotline to disable a stolen card. And it would be nice if services that really do not need an online verification, would refrain from using it. (Like browsing in an online shop before you buy anything)

Oh, we do have to give the Belgs a bit more credit. They have Open Sourced their voting software and Open Source is a integrated part of their IT policy.

Opensc

[Jeffrey Baker]

Lots of windbagging going on here but nobody here has mentioned that Belguim's smart card system is based partly on the Free Software (LGPL) OpenSC tools.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[ballpoint]

The "then don't" part will become increasingly difficult over time, as the eID becomes obligatory for even the most mundane tasks.

It's like saying: "You don't want to pay 80% withholdings and taxes on your income ? Then don't work ! You don't want to pay 20% VAT ? Then don't buy stuff !"

Yeah, right.

That aside, I don't have a problem with the card, due to the fact that we Belgians don't have a history of being abused by the government (save for taxes, that is). Let's hope that doesn't change for the worse.

As to the foreign population, the grandparent is very wrong and very right at the same time. The question is, what is a native Belgian ? A pure 100% Eburonic descendant, maybe ? Belgium has been trampled so often by foreign invaders/settlers/liberators that the gene pool is quite thoroughly mixed.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[mmkkbb]

There is nothing wacko about modifying immigration policies to reflect the current state of the country.

You have a very good point, and the reason you have the voice of reason is that there is a very big difference between an economic argument and spreading fear about the destruction of Western values by letting those damned foreigners.

Dig?

Oh great

[PC_Detonator]

Now how long will this take to be implemented in Open Source IM clients? It already took weeks for some IM clients to work again with MSN's new protocol.

Bye bye MSN Network. I think I'm going to have my MSN account moved to the trashbin by then.

WTF?

[fons]

Mod the parent down please! thank you.

Hence, Belgians wholeheartedly embrace the eID

Not one Belgian I know, trusts the government. We have been ruled by so many different countries during the last 500 years that we've grown to not trust the government. That's why *everybody* in Belgium evades paying taxes. It's a sports.
So "Wholeheartedly embrace" seems a bit strong. The only reason Belgians want this card is because they think there will be less buraucracy. Yhe less they have to do with the government, the better. Rest assured, from the moment the government tries to use this eID is a tool to *control* us, public disobedience will render this card useless. This has happened countless of times before with stupid taxes, etc.

What is happening in Belgium, with its accelerating destruction of Western values and Western society

Belgium is a tiny country. It's in the middle of Europe. OFFCOURSE there are a lot of foreigners. Being a host to foreigners and speaking different languages is our (only) STRENGTH.

foreign-born population (including those with Belgian citizenship) now exceeds the native-born population

We have been ruled by dozens of other countries throughout history (France, Spain, The Netherlands, Austria-Hungaria, ...). Belgium has ALWAYS been a melting pot of different cultures.

So please enlighten me, what do you mean by "native Belgians"? There ARE no native Belgians! The country Belgium isn't even 200 years old yet! It was *created* by England as a barrier between France and Germany!

Now, these people may be coming from other cultures than before, but so what? Similar migrations happend in the past and it only strengthened us.

We're not "degrading our values" or whatever. we're evolving.

I'm a bit shocked that comments like the parent get modded up so easily on slashdot.

Re:WTF?

[takis]

We have been ruled by dozens of other countries throughout history (France, Spain, The Netherlands, Austria-Hungaria, ...). Belgium has ALWAYS been a melting pot of different cultures.

So please enlighten me, what do you mean by "native Belgians"? There ARE no native Belgians! The country Belgium isn't even 200 years old yet! It was *created* by England as a barrier between France and Germany!

Now, these people may be coming from other cultures than before, but so what? Similar migrations happend in the past and it only strengthened us.

I totally agree on all of the above, but
I find it rather funny that you're explaining
this to -apparantly- a US citizen :-)

Belgian Government Website on eID

[frederik.carlier]

For those who are interested:
http://eid.belgium.be/en/navigation/1 2000/index.ht ml

It's the official website of the government about the eID card.

Flemish (Dutch-speaking part of Belgium) public television also has an interview with Bill Gates on this topic. You can find it on-line at http://www.vrtnieuws.net . Click "Internetsoftware voor Belgische identiteitskaart" and then "Ivan De Vadder interviewt Bill Gates". The interview is in English, although with Dutch subtitles. It can only improve your language skills :)

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[O.negen]

The e-id card does have one major design flaw though: the certificate issued by the government linking your public key to your identity contains your National Registry Number (Rijksregister/Registre national).

This number is used in many governmental databases as primary key, so it's not a good idea to give it out to everyone. The law restricts the use of the National Registry Number by private citizens and corporations for data processing. But it would have been better not create the opportunity for abuse in the first place, by spreading around this number in by way of this certificate.

The academic world in Belgium has repeatedly pointed this problem out to the government, but to no avail.

Some cool graphs on the roll out of the e-id card in Belgium are availble here: E-ID page. The e-id is no longer an experiment, in theory at least 'analog' cards will no longer be issued.

The problem runs deeper

[Anonymous Coward]

"Here in Belgium we are obligated to carry normal ID cards with us".

Does "obligated" mean it is illegal to be without identification, or just inconvenient (maybe extremely inconvenient)? If it is the former, that should already have you upset. In the US, we are progressively losing the right to public anonymity. For one thing, the right to free political assembly and expression depends on being able to remain anonymous if so desired.

The US public has surrendered the ability to fly anonymously in the name of "security", as though being anonymous would somehow facilitate bringing weapons on board. The "security" involved is nothing other than tracking people's movements - it has nothing to do with making flying safer. It is equivalent to setting up road blocks and checkpoints that cannot be passed without identification.

Re:The problem runs deeper

[Anonymous Coward]

"Here in Belgium we are obligated to carry normal ID cards with us".

Wrong !!

A friend made a study regarding this issue and what he found is quite interesting: you don't have the obligation to carry it with you but you have the obligation to show it to a police agent if he request it. The only law stating that is traffic law.

Just curious

[CmdrGravy]

With the spectre of I.D. cards looming over the UK I am curious about why the lady was being asked for her I.D. ?

avoidance

[kardar]

Let's see. I'll pretend that I have an electronic ID card. Let's say that I'm paranoid and I just don't feel like using my electronic ID card in combination with Microsoft product (which I think many people would feel is perfectly reasonable) - or online generally.

So then what's the worst thing that could happen - I wouldn't be able to use Microsoft products? Aw, gee... what a letdown.

Sort of like trusting your SSN to a Microsoft product - would you use your SSN to identify you in an online chat room? C'mon get real.

I would gladly just refrain from using those software products that required me to provide my electronic ID number.

I feel MUCH better

[Anonymous Coward]

Just knowing that a company with such a sterling reputation for security as Microsoft would be protecting one's identity gives me a warm feeling. Much like I felt when driving a Ford Pinto with a full tank of gas.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[Spoticus]

they will win an election in the near future. And it will be a good thing, because they will mess things up so badly that they wont gain support in the future, and in the meantime things will finally be fixed without going to either extreme....

yeah, we said that here in the USA too :o/

Bill Gates, Belgium and pies in the face

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Interesting choice of country to be trying to do this in.

Some people in Belgium apparently don't like him. He got a pie in the face there.

http://www.bitstorm.org/gates/

Re:You Just Proved the Grandparent's Point

[Anonymous Coward]

You just proved the grandparents's point. The Belgian government, reflecting the will of the large foreign population, just banned a political party because the foreigners view efforts to slow immigration as "racist".

You would welcome a party that has as one of its main goals the overthrowing of the constitution and disbandment of the united states of america?

How very unpatriotic of you.

Re:Unanswered Questions - pedophiles

[g253]

One reason cited was actually protection of the children, by allowing them to know the actual age of people they're chatting with, to avoid pedophiles pretending to be kids in chatrooms. Good intentions surely, but still a stupid idea if you ask me.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[mmkkbb]

Great, but can the National Front rhetoric and maybe you won't get marginalized by non-psychos.

Re:You Just Proved the Grandparent's Point

[Oracle of Bandwidth]

I'm sure the government will deal with the wrongthinking bloks. Then everything will be doubleplus-good.
In other news the choclate ration has been increased again!

Re:You have Cleverly Proved What You Stated

[mmkkbb]

Give me a break. GP could have made a well-reasoned argument, but instead chose the path of fear-mongering, xenophobia, and yellow journalism.

for d.a. fans out there...

[snakeplissken]

ford: hey zaphod, heard about this msn combined with id card thingy?
zaphod: oh belgium man! belgium!

and for those who aren't fans:

"But though even words like "juju-flop," "swut," and "turlingdrome" are now perfectly acceptable in common usage, there is one word that is still beyond the pale. The concept it embodies is so revolting that the publication or broadcast of the word is utterly forbidden in all parts of the galaxy except one - where they don't know what it means..."

Privacy isn't the Paramount Issue

[serutan]

As most Slashdot readers probably know, computer security has two distinct and separate functions: Authentication and Authorization. The first establishes that you are who you claim to be, the second establishes what you are and are not allowed to do. Authenticating yourself within a specific context, say a bank account transaction, is necessary within that context.

The danger in any type of universal form of authentiication is that it will be used for universal authorization. Many cities and states now suspend drivers licenses in order to collect fines, often for things completely unrelated to driving, such as failing to make child support payments, even for library fines. In time, any universal identification is sure to be abused on a much larger scale. The list of bureaucratic agencies that can red-flag your ID will grow, and so will the list of offenses that can make you unable to buy an airline ticket, rent a car, etc.

Bill Gates talks OSS to Belgian Governement

[NowHabitor]

I read this pretty interesting snippet in the local Belgian newspaper (translated):

Gates went to the federal parliament, where he gave a talk about informatization of the government and society to a select number of members of parliament, and chairman of the house of parliament Herman De Croo. He received a number of questions concerning the topic of Free Software (open source), programmes anyone can use and modify for any purpose. "I explained that open source software functions well together with our software", Gates said and added that the existence of free software led to the price decrease of software.

Could it be? Positive words from Bill for Open Source Software? I guess it is because that eID works on open source software, but still..

eID THIS!

[mpath]

Where's the cream pie guy when you need him? ;)

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[takis]

One reputable analyst, Barbara Simpson, noted that the foreign-born population (including those with Belgian citizenship) now exceeds the native-born population.

Total nonsense. The article you point to even claims the opposite. Only about 10% of the population of Belgium has foreign roots.

In the US immigrants constitute 99.9% of the population, and yes, they did destroy the original culture and values.

It's ironic

[aled]

Acording to this article the cards are based on Sun's Java Card technology.

Where's my tin foil hat?

[BrokenHalo]

IANA Belgian, and I won't comment on the dubious merits of their ID card, but the first thing that occurs to me is that the first thing that will happen on integration with Windows is that any associated information will become freely available in association with names and email addresses of everybody in the LookOut address book.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I can think of several very scary situations that could arise from that.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[MoobY]

I must say the parent post is very inflammatory, partisan, based on interpretations of plausible scenarios and very off topic. This type of discussion belongs in political fora, I don't think it has anything to do with "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters".

Oh, I'm a Belgian citizen too.

Re:You have Cleverly Proved What You Stated

[takis]

Indeed, the Belgian government has actually banned a party that favors reducing immigration.

The Belgian government -unfortunately- has not banned that party. It was the independent judiciary system that convicted the party for being racist.

It is rather obvious that the party consists of convinced racists. The problem is that many people in Belgium don't see being racist as a problem anymore... :-(

Here's a picture http://www.blokwatch.be/images/userimage/dillen.jp g
of the founder of the party we're talking about called "Vlaams Blok" and now being renamed because of their conviction to "Vlaams Belang".

Re:You Just Proved the Grandparent's Point

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post drowns in errors.

1) The government did not ban the party. A judge ruled that the some organisations linked to this party - organisations that were used to get money to it - had racist views.

2) The party still exists. All they had to do was to change their name. And even that was not strictly needed: they only did that for publicity reasons. In fact, because of this they're the actual winners of this whole mess.

Re:Parent = BS (Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[takis]

The typo was in the 100000, not the percentages. About 10% of the Belgian population has foreign roots.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[takis]

Belgium has been trampled so often by foreign invaders/settlers/liberators that the gene pool is quite thoroughly mixed.

Ah! Finally some intelligent remarks on /.

I wish more people would understand that the roots of most European people -except maybe the Basque people- are very hard to trace because of the numerous migrants that have occurred during at least the last few thousand years.

Java Smart Card

[sucker_muts]

Perhaps not too late to mention our cards (I'm right here in Antwerp) are java smart cards...

For people who speak dutch: http://www.tweakers.net/nieuws/35324

Re:Pie in the Face

[rifftide]

That's been built into the ID system's challenge-response protocol.

Alice: Hello, who are you?

Bill: I'm Bill Gates

Alice: prove it
*throws pie in Bill's face*

Bill: (unintelligible)

*communication proceeds between the two parties*

Electronic ID card in Finland

[Turmio]

Here in Finland we've had these kind of id cards since 2000 or so. The novel idea is that that the authorities issue one for you and then you can use it when you need to prove who you are when doing business with the authorities from home. Great in theory since you can use web service from your home's comfort while previously you'd had to go there and have some other official identity with you, eg. passport. Well this thing pretty much flopped. Very rare service support it (though my company offers a service that supports it) and even fewer have card readers at home. It's a chicken and egg problem, really, combined with unfamiliar for the common people technology and concepts. Nowadays, when you need secure e-identification, many use the identification services offered by banks. Finnish banks are pioneers in e-banking and their systems are very established and generally trusted. So they've found a new business opportunity in offering their authentication and identification technology to 3rd parties who need their customers identified and are willing to out-source the operation. And this is something about everyone can use since on-line banking is so so 1996 that everyone does it by now. And to authenticate you don't need any extra computer stuff or passwords, just the code sheet your bank sent you. I believe electronic ID card is much more popular in Estonia. I don't know why, but they've been using it almost as long as Finland.

And to all American who are wondering the privacy effects. It's difficult for us to see your point. For us national id cards are no privacy threat at all. This is because the ids are mainly used when dealing with authorities, banks, etc. who one can trust (authorities) or whose interest is that their customer's privacy isn't compromised so they do their best to ensure that (banks, etc.). And why do we trust the authorities? Well our rulers don't have the habit to piss off the people by doing really things to us. And if something happened either intentionally or accidentally, they'd get caught very soon. According to Transparency International, Finland has been the least corrupted country on the planet for five consecutive years now. But it wasn't worse before, but the mutual trust and respect between governance and the people have been there since the 1917 independence.

Re:Stupid Belgians...

[orkysoft]

Looks like it worked as flamebait on you. Don't take everything that sounds stupid so seriously, dude! :-P

Re:You Just Proved the Grandparent's Point

[MPR At UW]

I certainly do not agree with the distruction of the constitution but why is it that everyone is so damn afraid of being unpatriotic? The last time I checked we lived in a democracy so stick up for what you believe in not what the politicians tell you that you believe in.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[LordNightwalker]

We allow foreigners with five years of residency to vote.

Sorry to have to correct you, but you're wrong... I'm Spanish, I was born in Belgium, I'm 27 now. Do the math on how long I've been living here. Yet I'm not allowed to vote. I have to change my citizenship to Belgian for that.

Not that I care to vote though, never cared for politics. But on a moral level I have a problem with the whole "become Belgian if you want to vote" stuff. I have the same responsibilities than the rest of the people living in this country (getting and maintaining a job, paying taxes, abiding the law etc...) so I find it a bit odd that I don't get the same privileges. At least you have a say in what happens with your tax money; I don't.

Of course, I could just become Belgian, and get voting privileges. But then again, what's to stop someone who's far less integrated than I am (remember, I was born here; culturaly speaking I'm just as Belgian as you are, only my id says otherwise) from doing just that to play the system? And they're far more motivated than I am; I'm just too lazy to change my nationality, but someone who wants to play the system will have little objections to changing nationality just to do that. Be glad they're not organised yet... ;)

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[LordNightwalker]

Just because immigration has worked in the past, doesn't guarentee it will work in the future. It depends on the quality of the immigrants you are getting *SNIP*

Don't know if this is an urban myth or not, but weren't the first people to colonise Australia a bunch of expelled criminals? Yet Australia has a far lower crime rate than say the US... Yup, it really depends on the "quality" of the immigrants you're getting...

If any Australian can either confirm or deny this factoid I been lugging around in my head for all these years, please do so. I'd really like to know if there's any truth in this, yet never saw that being covered in our history class, and for stuff like this I just don't trust a google search, but rather hear it straight from someone in the know.

Re:BRUSSELS

[euroBob]

Are you for real? Judas priest man go on line a read SOMETHING! To say what you have said only shows you don't even have a clue about the EU. You're just some stuck up english tart that doesn't wan't to loose his knickers and have to drive on the right side of the road. You sir are nothing but rubbish!

Re:Refusing Young Children Access

[LordNightwalker]

*sigh* Yes, you can refuse young children based on their electronic identity, even if they don't have an e-id. You refuse them on the *lack of* e-id. You make certain chatrooms adult only, and only people who can prove (trhough their e-id) that they are older than a certain age can enter.

If it were to be like you portray it, anyone could enter any and all chatrooms: just don't plug the e-id into the computer, and tadaa! Someone between 12 and 18 who would otherwise be refused access could now also enter, because "based on their e-id" (the way you seem to interpret that phrase) there now is nothing preventing them from doing so any more.

And to think that just when I was giving you credit for not posting anonymously, you decided to blow it all on a major flaw in reasoning like the one you just displayed. It's rather sad my respect means so little to you. ;)

Anonymous ID? Are you listening to yourself?

[IBitOBear]

If its Anonymous it cant function as an ID. It becomes "a ticket" and it only has limited applicability. That is, it will admit you to some service but it won't "identify" you at all. (All that is implicit in the definiton of the terms. 8-)

So if you have this ticket, it can not remain anonymous if you use it in conjunction with anything that is identifying. Read this weekends discussion of the Safeway Club Card leads to Arson Charge discussion. Get a completely "anonymous" club card and use it with a credit card or check or ATM card and it isn't anonymous any more.

And show me a government on the planet that is going to go into the business of issueing anoymous tickets to anything...?

Cash is anonymous, but only if nobody is looking hard enough. (Finger prints, serial numbers, DNA, etc.)

Absolute Crud

[Spactonic]

uhhm, having grown up in Belgium and currently living here - this is absolute speculation and b*llocks. For starters, the vast majority, i.e. 90%+ do not have electronic cards yet, not to speak of the rather large expat community in Brussels who have a separate residence card. So to start talking about integrating a national, governmenr funded system with a commercial enterprise is complete and utter c*ap. This will not happen within the forseable future - enough said. Gates - if you seriously think your comments will go anywhere, get real. What a load of horse sh*t!

right on the *mark*

[m93]

Microsoft should soon be making this technology available worldwide with model 666.

Re:Hey mods mod this up as ultra funny ++5

[thebatlab]

I've got mod points but damned if I can't find the "+1 for effort, -1 for originality" option. Oh well.

Re:Unanswered Questions - pedophiles

[lachlan76]

You mean now I can't send paedophiles to distant places and waste hours of their time anymore?

pie throwing

[tinkerton]

There are better ways to conclude that some people don't like Bill. Pie throwers like throwing pies at people who act important, and who think they're important. Or something like that. It's an exciting hobby. An extreme sport.

They probably have wet dreams about smacking a pie in Bush's face, and surviving it.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[frederik.carlier]

You are right - there is no 'Belgian' race, no 'real' native Belgians. There are indeed few European countries who do.

However. It doesn't take a lot to create some kind of 'national' feeling (as in: "I am Belgian"). I would call everybody who has a few generations of history in Belgium, speaks the language and has some feeling about the football team and the Dutch or French (depending in which part you live) a 'native' Belgian for that matter... ;).

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[frederik.carlier]

Most people have the Rijksregisternummer on the back of their ID card already. You could ask to not to have it there, but I don't know many who did that.

As far as I'm aware, the number is on the chip itself, not on the card, so I guess the card readers have some restrictions to prevent who can read your rijksregisternummer (for example, only government offices could do so)...

Re:BRUSSELS

[NowHabitor]

I would love to see the UK leave the EU. They are nothing but a bunch of american ass-lickers. But hey, you guys begged on your bare knees to be able to join the EU. You were scared as shit to be left out.

Source code, specs, configuration information, ...

[jochend]

At the bottom of this page http://www.belgium.be/eportal/application?origin=s earchResults.jsp&event=bea.portal.framework.intern al.refresh&pageid=contentPage&docId=6418[www.belgi um.be] there are a bunch of links to Programmers Guides, Chip contents, how to configure web servers/browsers and source code to the (Windows) middleware.

that's ok

[tinkerton]

you only use it once.

Re:that's ok

[StalinsNotDead]

Yeah, but it's a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference. So, much like a Monty Python reference or Slashdot cliche, it was likely that between the time it took to type and click the preview and submit buttons, someone was bound to post a similar comment.

Re:that's ok

[tinkerton]

Nobody ever tells me anything around here :(

Anyway, "Belgium" was a replacement for the american edition. It's not in the original. In the english version , the word was a plain 'fuck' which admittedly doesn't have the same frisson to it.

Open Source Community!!!

[big ben bullet]

it's gpl!

start coding on that jabber thing...

also include it in gaim, kopete, and even in kmail, evolution, etc..

i'd love to see it implemented and released in an open source application before ms updates it's msn messenger

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[chthon]

Besides, I thought that the Dutch where the largest immigrant group in Belgium, followed by the Turks or the Moroccans.

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[chthon]

Yeah, and that Eburonic part (Limburg) has probably one of the largest mixed populations of Belgium. All descendants of foreign coal mine workers.

My adjutant in the army was from that part. His father was an Italian, but he spoke a Limburg dialect of Dutch/German that neither Dutch speaking nor German speaking people could understand.

Re:Stupid Belgians...

[andr0meda]

Sorry, I don`t belong to the silent majority. If this would have been satire or funny, then that's a different story, but it`s not, so I give my opinion on his comments. Naive? Maybe. Conscious-clearing? Sure. Effective? Doubtfull. The right thing to do? Absolutely.

FOSDEM and eID

[UnConeD]

If you're really fast, it could be done in time for presenting at FOSDEM in Brussels :P.

UK Tabloids and the EU

[UnConeD]

You do realize that everything you've said is just crap perpetuated by British tabloids? It's gotten so bad that the EU has had to put a website for debunking these myths. Guess what, almost all of them are from the UK:

See this site.

I'm Belgian and sure don't like this ...

[freaker_TuC]

Well, I am Belgian too and got to say I do not like a private company known not to be able to protect their own products to be making our PRIVATE ID cards containing our private information.

Next to that, it shouldn't be a verification for MSN services; rather the ID card should be having the ability to have a system like "adultpass", which should be ran by the government; to protect minors from entering the Belgian MSN chatsites. This to protect our data from hacks later on.

Currently no-one can have my information; because it is fully private: my "staatsregisternummer" (in english this is the state registration number, based on your birthdate and a random number) and my identity card number will never get read except by health-services, my bank and the cops/government. Very sometimes when someone asks a copy of my identity card I give my drivers license because I do not like to give all my information to a company; which I do not know what they DO with that information afterwards.

I don't want that number to travel over the Internet or to be used in MSN or Passport. Sure not with the reputation of their security.

Currently we got a SIS card, which contains information required by our health services to be paid back a huge amount of our costs; why should Microsoft be able, to access these records, as private company? Since that SIS card (with smart chip) will probably be thrown out whenever this eID comes out...

It's a good thing this eID is coming, but I find it a very bad thing it will be centralized and depending on Microsoft; They simply do not have my trust.

Re:You Just Proved the Grandparent's Point

[drinkypoo]

I would welcome a party that has as one of its main goals the rewriting of the constitution and supporting states' rights. Unfortunately I think patriots like those who founded are nation are in short supply here - and those who do exist are suppressed and prevented from gaining political power, so if such a thing DID happen today, it would probably go horribly, horribly wrong.

I consider myself something of a patriot - I love my country and I want to work to make it greater than it is today. I don't think that our constitution is an inviolate document. Men made it, and men can unmake it, or make it again. As constitutions go it is pretty good but it could be rewritten to make it a bit more clear, particular some of the amendments. Like, WTF does "well-regulated" mean WRT militias?

Re:Belgium Population Explains eID

[O.negen]

In my experience, even when people ask NOT to print the RRN on the card, they still do.

And some more bad news. The RRN is not just on the chip, but it is part of the public key certificate.

So every time you use the E-id to authenticate yourself or to sign something, you have to pass along the public key certificate, which includes your RRN.

And I thought supermarket loyalty cards were bad!

Someone told me the use of the a unique identification number for people is against the constitution in Germany. So, hopefully the EU will harmonize e-id's in the future and make sure no unique identification number is used on it. The German constitutional court wouldn't look kindly on the whole thing otherwise. A serial number may be necessary, but that doesn't mean it should be the RRN.