The Million-Gnome March

This past Friday a sea of Gnomish fury swept over the chilly vale of Dun Morogh. The reason? Their character class isn't balanced. AFK Gamer has details on this outpouring of tiny fury, with liveblogging from the event itself and pictures of the naked gnome march from later in the weekend. Despite GM crackdowns and general apathy towards the Warrior cause, they appear to have gotten some sort of response from a developer (even though the response has nothing to do with the march). Terra Nova has picked up the topic and poses it as a question about the right to assemble in virtual spaces.

Comments

EULA

[ZephyrXero]

Unfortunately you give up all your rights, such as right to protest, when you click OK on that End User Licence Agreement :(

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

No - you never had a right to protest in the first place.

Thinking of the First Amendment? Think again. Until Blizzard becomes the U.S. government, the First Amendment is completely irrelevant to any dealings you may have with them.

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

More accurately, you give up the right to overload the server and disrupt the people trying to play the game when you click OK on that EULA.

If you want to protest the game, you can bitch about it on their forums where it can remain relatively contained.

You don't get to ruin the experience for the people trying to play the game for fun.

Re:EULA

[BrookHarty]

Wrong. :)

EULA's have been proven to be invalid after you pay for a product. Now since most people bought the game, pre-payed by Credit card, then got the EULA, there are some real legal questions about this type of EULA.

Now, the EULA also doesnt cover your legal rights, you dont give them away with the EULA, you never loose your legal rights on an EULA, its not the same as a standard contract, no matter what the slashdot lawyers say.

And by the way contracts can be challanged and overturned on wording or lack of wording, or intent. Anyone who says contracts are binding, dont have the legal muscle normally to fight one.

Now, No where in the EULA does it say you must stop playing the game if Blizzard asks, it does say they can change the EULA at any time, so they could add that at a later time.

If 200 people want to protest, it only takes 5 to start the class action lawsuit. Yes, its over the top for a game, but when you start banning people and still charging their credit cards, you enter some very murky legal problems, not providing service after payment.

I'm sure a good set of lawyers for the tabacco company could keep blizzard in court for years... ;)

Law is blind, the best lawyers win, the law doesnt.

Re:EULA

[Minna Kirai]

EULA's have been proven to be invalid after you pay for a product.

Wrong. Triply-wrong (which works out to be right, I suppose).

1. EULAs haven't been proven invalid in the USA. The most recent court decision was pro-EULA.
2. However, EULAs are invalid according to a sensible reading of the legal principles, so hopefully a higher court will reverse that bad ruling.
3. But it doesn't matter, because MMORPGs do not use EULAs. EULAs are for software, the use of their servers is covered by a traditional service agreemet (like a phone or electricity bill) which is valid as normal.

invalid after you pay for a product.

Notice that with WoW or another MMORPG, you sign that agreement before paying the monthly bills. EULAs for software you already have are invalid; service agreements for things a company is promising to give you in the future are fine. (Mutual exchange of consideration and all that)

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

you purchase the product before you even are told of the existance of the EULA. You also have to break the seal of the box and see the CD-key before you even are told there is a EULA. Try clicking no to the EULA when it is first presented to you, and returning the product to the store - good luck... Most jurisdictions haven't looked at the enforceability of EULAs (contract law is a question of state law). Most decisions out there now are federal cases looking at contract law as a seconary issue to whether the claims are preempted by federal copyright laws.... And even those cases are pretty much a wash..... It is unpredictable at best whether any given EULA will be enforced in any given jurisdiction - especially at a trial level - and anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

Re:EULA

[Vermifax]

Blizzard will reimburse you the box cost within 30 days of purcase if you don't wish to agree and the retail location won't take it back.

Re:EULA

[Phoenix_SEC]

IANAL, TINLA, etc., etc., etc...

#2 is off. EULAs are valid legal documents. This comes from two reasons; first, there is a reasonable assumption that an EULA is required to run the software (as tested in the courts), as long as the EULA is "reasonable" itself, it holds up. Secondly (and more importantly for the mindset you have), the fact that there is an EULA is listed on the box of said game (all Blizzard games, and most software in general include this disclosure, just in case).

You are paying for the license to use software, knowing (both because you should know, and because it is on the box) that there is an EULA. It is part of the consideration (e.g., they get your money and your agreement to the EULA, you get the license to use the software).

Also, most EULAs (that I know of) contain clauses that allow them to update the EULA with sufficient notice (as per any normal contract).

That said, you are correct that Terms of Service (TOS) are, if anything, more ironclad. Since you have to agree to both before playing this particular game (which is also listed on the box), there's really no way around it.

If you are more interested, I talk about it more in this post which is attached to this article. This article (referenced in the slashdot post) gives some good information.

Short version, EULAs are just fine.

Long version, RTFA =)

Sorry if I condensed the content a little too much here, it's oversimplified, but has the gist.

Phoenix_SEC

Re:EULA

[Phoenix_SEC]

IANAL, TINLA, etc.

Read the box.

All of the box.

Yes, even the smaller print.

Yes, even the smaller print on the bottom of the box.

Read the part where you have to agree to the EULA and Terms of Use.

Then, read it again.

Yes, you can read it through the clear shrinkwrap.

Yes, you can read it in the store.

Several states have tested EULAs, and by the by they are good contracts.

Too lazy to relink everything, check out my other post on this thread for further reading.

Re:EULA

[Minna Kirai]

Short version, EULAs are just fine.

Wrong. Actually reading the article you linked demonstrates that I am right, and that EULAs are invalid. The difficulty is that the word "EULA" is now being applied to some different kinds of contracts which are valid, even though EULAs in general are not. As Don Shkeley from Buchanon Ingersoll explains, Blizzard's WoW agreement is valid because it is a contract for use of their servers, not merely to run the software unconnected on your own computer. (As I already said in my post above)

Sorry if I condensed the content a little too much here, it's oversimplified, but has the gist.

You're wrong, both here and in all the other comments, including the one about wedding rings, etc. You claim that somehow the fact that "You must accept the EULA to use this product" is written on the outside of the box carries any legal weight. It does not.

I could easily write: "By responding to this comment, you agree to mail me $5000". Or "By reading this comment, you agree to give me $400". Or I could even go to your house and spraypaint "By opening this door, you agree to give me $30"

None of those things are legally binding just because I say so. It's not valid to claim that someone's action constitutes agreement to a contract unless the action was one that he wouldn't have been allowed to do without your permission, or (alternatively) an action she would have done for no other reason accept to communicate acceptance to you.

Valid: "If you agree to give me $50, clap your hands 10 times"
Valid: "If you agree to give me $50, come into my private home"
Invalid: "If you agree to give me $50, walk down the sidewalk away from me"

So, this means that your wedding-ring example falls under something (taking his expensive property) that would be illegal for her to do without his permission. Thus it does basically constitute a contract.

So, when applied to computer software, the problem becomes: Does the publisher of the software have any right to prohibit me from running it?
If the software is a single player game like WarCraft3, then the answer is no. One they've taken your money, given the discs, and you're back in your own home, the publisher has no right to (for example) phone you and command you never to run the program, and that a reimbursment check will be coming in the mail. (That's exactly like how the seller of a car cannot demand his vehicle back in exchange for a refund. You sold it, the deal is done, tough)

But, if the game is something that can't be used without access to the publishers' servers, then the do have a legal way to stop you from playing. They can decide to get out of the MMORPG business and unplug those servers at any time (which may obligate them to return some monthly fees).

PS. I'm talking about USA law here. In Britain things are different, and you're actually not allowed to run a program you've bought without the authors specific permission. So on the Isle, normal Click-Thru EULAs are binding.

PPS. In the USA, if EULAs were really binding, then it would be completely illegal for Computer City to sell software to anyone who is under 18.

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

They reimburse the cost of the box, what about shipping and other costs? They would be liable for those too. Otherwise they are essentially claiming you have to agree to terms before you can read them.

And that is good that they state that on the box, but it still doesn't provide the terms. So you are paying without knowing what you are agreeing to, so there is no formation of any contract that includes those terms at this point.

EULAs have not been tested in most states, the law that is out there goes both ways. I assure you that more consumer friendly state courts will not look favorably upon EULAs, and even if they were to enforce the EULA in principle they would find almost all of the specific provisions unenforceable for various reasons.

I am not sure if there is any EULA case that is purely between a business that sold the product and its consumer who is not trying to make commercial profit (or otherwise usurping the profit or function of the company) by using the product at issue (i.e., PROCD where the purchaser took the software and sold it via the internet; the Blizzard BNET cases; etc.)

Frankly, there is just not much interest from anyone in testing EULA enforcement in those cases as there is essentially no money at stake. But eventually some class action will get filed, and then the EULA will truly be tested. And there is a good chance the EULA will be held unenforceable on its face.

Re:EULA

[Phoenix_SEC]

IANAL, TINLA, etc...

Blatently stolen from the article (emphasis mine - sorry for so many bold areas):

"What does all of this mean? Well, I am sure you're bored by now, so I will summarize. If you ask an attorney about EULAs, he or she will likely say "they are enforceable, but there are some caveats." If you ask him about a terms of service agreement that you "sign" by clicking "I agree" each time you log into a service, he will likely say "that sounds pretty good to me." He will be right on both accounts. So, once again, true shrink wrap EULAs have been tested in most major jurisdictions and are valid contracts, subject to certain limitations. Terms of Service contracts, like the "EULA" found in MMOGs, are simply enforceable. There is a common perception that EULAs have not been tested in court. This is incorrect. They have been. In fact, very recently Blizzard's EULA was enforced in two separate cases and relief was granted based on the EULA's terms."

Also blatently stolen from the article:

"In that case the court determined that EULAs are enforceable because everyone knows what's in them, and everyone reasonably should expect to be bound by certain terms and conditions. Later cases came out, however that said EULAs are a special kind of contract that comes with certain restrictions. Companies that use EULAs must make sure they are "reasonable." There is a lot of case law defining what is reasonable"

In other words, EULAs are fine as long as they are standard EULAs. They cannot have provisions in them that make you give me all your money, they cannot make you format your computer, but they can have the 'standard' provisions.

In essence, EULAs and infringment are not things that can be blanket-covered, in the words of the author of the original article, "it depends, but in some cases the only way to tell is to go to court."

That said, if the EULA is within the bounds of "reasonable", it IS enforcable. His addition of the Terms of Service is questions of the specific topic he was addressing, not to say (your quote) "2. However, EULAs are invalid according to a sensible reading of the legal principles, so hopefully a higher court will reverse that bad ruling."

The reason is that if the EULA was not enforced at all, then you wouldn't actually be buying a license to the software, but rather the software itself. You would have free reign to do whatever you liked (including installing on as many computers as you liked and passing out copies for Halloween). That is the other part of the article; the reference to the ProCD case. In other words, violating the EULA _does_ invalidate the 'contract' of you buying the software license, and thus remove your ability to run it. Again, the EULA is part of the contract for the license.

As for the wedding ring story, I know at least one state (in the US) that it's accurate. True enough, YMMV on state law... The problem is not the legality of her obtaining the ring (gifts are not illegal, and Tom did give the ring away); it was the 'consideration' of marriage that turns the gift into a contract. Her not following through on her side means that she must return the ring.

As for your examples, they are great for shock value, but don't really apply.

Your stating of something (an offer), does not constitute a contract. It never will. You can "say" anything you want, but unless I accept the offer, there is _absolutely_ nothing to be said for it. Beyond that, your point could be that there is no gain on my part (other than getting away from you ;) so it does not make a valid contract, but that doesn't follow suit with this; the person paying for the license is granted use of the license (subject to the EULA).

As for the EULA not carrying any weight (reposted from above, from said article, and yes, I am being lazy and not looking up the cases, thankyouverymuch): "...very recently Blizzard's EULA was enforced in two separate cases and relief was granted based on the EULA's terms."

You do raise an interesting point in the PPS; I wonder if there is any case law on it.

Re:EULA

[Minna Kirai]

Blatently stolen from the article (emphasis mine - sorry for so many bold areas):

So yet again, I'm right, as the text you first linked and now pasted keeps on confirming. You can stop repeating it now... I really don't need the help. On the other hand, that text does contain "True shrink wrap EULAS have been tested in all jurisdictions", which is a 100% lie (ProCD was in one limited and non-conclusive jurisdiction!!). But in other parts, it tells the truth.

And please don't throw ProCD back at me, I've read the whole ruling, and it's ludicrous (well, not the dissenting opinion of course). The Supreme Court would obliterate that in an afternoon.

In other words, EULAs are fine as long as they are standard EULAs.

That's not how law works. If that concept worked, then the Constitutional prohibition against unusual punishment would be meaningless... because if you do a lot of any punishment, it automatically becomes usual!

Similarly, the very first EULA was invalid because there was no reasonable common knowledge about what they might entail. Lawyers at that time who read them over knew this, and informed their clients. So by a process of induction, no EULAs are valid, because they all started from an environment where they were obviously nonbinding.

The reason is that if the EULA was not enforced at all, then you wouldn't actually be buying a license to the software, but rather the software itself.

Wrong wrong wrong. First off, there is no such thing as "Buying software". The phrase is semantically meaningless, except as an abbreviation as either "Buying a copy of software" or "Buying a copyright to software". In computer stores, it's possible to buy copies of software, just like music stores will sell you copies of songs. It's also possible to purchase the copyright to software or a song, but that's expensive and requires direct negotation with the current owner. Obviously, when most people talk about buying software, they really mean buying a copy of software.

You would have free reign to do whatever you liked (including installing on as many computers as you liked and passing out copies for Halloween).

That would only be possible if someone had bought the copyright to software, which almost never happens. In reality, people buy a copy of software, which enables them to keep that copy, look at it, and even make other copies, but only subject to Fair Use restrictions. (Fair Use includes the right to make whatever copies are required to use the software in the most normal way, which typically means installing on the hard drive and then loading into RAM)

When you buy a copy of a song on a music CD, there is no EULA attached. Yet it's still illegal to pass it out on Halloween (or upload it to Napster). That's just the default protection enjoyed by every copyrighted work, including software. Some elements of the software industry try to obscure this fact, and pretend that the EULA is the only thing that keeps blatant mass duplication from being completely legal. That's just a trick to get judges to approve EULA validity.

You can "say" anything you want, but unless I accept the offer, there is _absolutely_ nothing to be said for it.

Shrinkwrap can "say" anything it wants, but unless I accept the offer, there is _absolutely_ nothing to be said for it.

And tearing open the box does no more to constitute acceptance than does striding away down the sidewalk. Both activities are things you probably wanted to do anyway, and both are things which I (or the software publisher) have no legal way to forbid you from doing. The sidewalk is public property- I can't stop you from going there. And the the box, after all, is your physical property that you've already paid for- the publisher cannot stop you from destroying it, nor stipulate that destroying it binds you to some contract that you've never read nor signed.

the person paying for th

Re:EULA

[Minna Kirai]

Read the box.
All of the box.
Yes, even the smaller print.

I shall respond with plagiarism: "Your stating of something (an offer), does not constitute a contract. It never will. You can "say" anything you want, but unless I accept the offer, there is _absolutely_ nothing to be said for it."

Read the part where you have to agree to the EULA and Terms of Use.

That little text is illegal. I won't go into details, but it constitutes a breach of inalienable rights, and thus would be illegal even if part of a signed contract. Language like that is just unenforcable anywhere- you can't bindingly agree to something you haven't seen yet.

Note that an MMORPG is irrelevant to that, because as I described, you are contracting for use of their servers, not the client software (which you can keep and execute even if Blizzard terminates your account for nonpayment or wrongdoing)

Several states have tested EULAs, and by the by they are good contracts.

That's a lie. "Several" means, technically, between 5 and 8, and there have been fewer than 5. And the most prominent of those weren't testing EULAs in general at all, but rather similar concepts with much more inherent enforcability than typical Shrinkwrap and Clickwrap licensing. (The Blizzard case doesn't count, because it's not about EULAs. A Terms of Service is quite different from, and much more valid than, an EULA- even if the TOS was mislabeled as an EULA)

So we don't even...

[incom]

mention the game anymore? What game is this concerning? It's probably World of warcraft as that is what people seem obsessed with at the moment, but still this posting is too vague.

Re:So we don't even...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's wow.

These people are morons. "my class is not balanced boo hoo hoo!".

Look, it doesn't matter. All that matters is how high your character's level is. It's a race to level 60. There is no skill or talent involved in this game. Like all MMORPGs, it's all about playing time. If you put in enough time, you end up with a deadly character. Well, deadly against people half your level at least.

And that's it. So what's the point? Why whine? Even the most kick ass level 30 character will never be able to withstand even one hit from a level 40, 50 or 60. So why waste your time whining about your character just so you can handle battling the one or two people of your own level that you will ever come across before levening up again?

Re:So we don't even...

[EngineeringMarvel]

Yes, the post is concerning World Of Warcraft. Dun Morough is the starting place for gnomish characters and is also one of the most populated areas on any server. Mainly because the city of Ironforge is located near Dun Morough and that is where the Alliance auction house is located.

Re:So we don't even...

[Blakey Rat]

I love Slashdot "reporting."

Other replies have said that it's definately World of Warcraft. But pretty much all the games out there now have Gnomes, and all of them have psuedo-Tolkien-sounding city names.

Re:So we don't even...

[NanoGator]

"mention the game anymore? What game is this concerning?"

Argh no kidding. Imagine how somebody out of the loop read: "Naked Gnome March"...

Thought it was LoTR related or something.

Re:So we don't even...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well they are complaining that the level 60 warriors are comprable to level 40-50 other classes.

Re:So we don't even...

[KevinKnSC]

I don't recall any mention of gnomes in Middle Earth, though.

Re:So we don't even...

[Chris Mattern]

> I don't recall any mention of gnomes in Middle Earth, though.

Some of Tolkien's early writing refers to the Noldor as "gnomes", but that was dropped early on (wisely, I think, since the Noldor are scarcely gnome-like).

Chris Mattern

Not a MMORPG

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can't roleplay a protester, it's not a MMORPG.

Instances, pvp-limitations, lack of death penalty, etc... I could list dozens of other infractions against using the term that Blizzard has accumilated, but actively breaking up a congregation and calling it a MMORPG takes the cake.

Re:Not a MMORPG

[Gherald]

Hint: Throughout human history, protesters and congregations have been broken up many times.

Maybe that is what they are roleplaying... with Blizzard playing the role of Big Bad Oppressive Government.

But regardless, there is nothing un-MMORPG about it.

Re:Not a MMORPG

[centauri]

If you're protesting the rules of the game (or the programming, in this case), you're not role-playing a protester, you're just protesting.

Re:Not a MMORPG

[BrookHarty]

Thats the point what people are saying, blizzard is playing both sides of the fence, they want you to play but not think outside of their box. But they dont mention what their box is.

Hunters pulling is their main skill, now when everyone is using it, blizzard tells them not to use it on linked mobs. Problem is, they forgot to link mobs in all instances!

Warriors are having issues as they have been nerfed and cant fight paladins 10 levels beneath them.

Then there is issues with the game being stable, people dropping, respawn rates, scripts for bosses not working, massive server lag with more than 30 people... The list goes on with problems and bugs in game. While this is expected, the total lack of response is to in game TT's have made people upset.

So, while people are starting to enter 50's and some 60's, you have to raid group just to finish the last games, which cant be done.

If nothing changes, 1/4th of the subscribers will leave in 2-3 months, Blizzard is aware of this and working their ass off to finish the big servers and code needed for Battlegrounds.

Talk about churn, there are a dozen MMOPGS's out, and blizzard could loose tens of thousands to them.

Re:Not a MMORPG

[Blakey Rat]

I agree. If you get inside your characters mind, you'll realize that they don't know that they're "nerfed" (I hate that term). They don't even know what "level" and "experience" they are... those are all concepts outside of the In Character world of the game.

And since very few people understand that, that's why all *true* RP games are MUDs. (Where the players can more easily be trained to tell the difference between In Character constructs and Out Of Character constructs.)

Re:Not a MMORPG

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't roleplaying, to protest something the role you are supposed to be playing would have no knowldege of.

Re:Not a MMORPG

[GryMor]

They are RPing protesters in as much as they are RPing Gnomes that are protesting Deific Fiat... In response, said Deiies dealt with them harshly (albeit reasonably at the meta level).

I'm all good with both sides of this one, really, quite amused....

Re:Not a MMORPG

[Anonymous Coward]

thing about MMO protests is that they arnt new, hell, in Eve online theres one every month, though, its actualy over slavery (in game) most of the time and not balance issues. great thing about those protests, is that when they get broken up by the devs, its usualy in the form of shit loads of police.

Re:Not a MMORPG

[jbich]

"dozens of other infractions"

One man's infraction is another man's "artistic freedom".

If we are always forced to abide by strict rules in art, how would we progress?

Re:Not a MMORPG

[llefler]

Then there is issues with the game being stable, people dropping, respawn rates,

No kidding on those respawn rates. They've made some serious changes in the way mobs respawn in the last month. It's common now to walk into an area that appears 'safe', completely empty, only to have the entire area respawn and get gang raped. Often with severe lag as all the new creatures are created. I created a new Elf rogue this week and got caught at the bottom of the Barrow's Den. There was no place to revive that was out of aggro range and I died 3 times before I worked my way to an area that was empty enough I could activate stealth.

My biggest complaints are the loot problems from mining/herbalism and the way they broke targeting in December. If you have ranged weapons (guns, bows, spells) you can often shoot farther than you can target. Unless you use your mouse and click on your target, which is less than optimal if your target moves a lot or move erratically. I have also found while trying to charge with my warrior that some creatures have a longer aggro range than your targeting/charge range. That makes the charge ability nearly useless. I really miss the targetting of AC where you could hit one key to target the closest mob and another key would cycle through all targets that were in view. And it worked every time.

Re:Big fucking deal.

[EngineeringMarvel]

You could have easily switched to a PvE server instead of playing on a PvP server. The information you posted is misleading since you can play without having to deal with the nuisance of opposing faction players. In PvE servers, no player can attack you unless you enable Player versus Player. You could be in the heart of the orc home lands as a human and not worry about being injured in a PvE server.

citizenship, rights, and social pressure

[ParticleGirl]

I think the most interesting statement in the Terra Nova piece is "Look, there's a trend in human political systems that appears to be basically universal as of 2005: social stress eventually puts all policymaking and the monopoly of force in the hands of an elected and more or less representative body of rulers." I have some problems with this statement, but will leave them aside for now and just say that I love the contrast between this statement and the idea of individuals asserting what Terra Nova calls "citizenship" in the next paragraph and other people call "rights". We have to remember that some rights that we exercise in the real world in some countries are not rights of citizenship in synthetic worlds or other countries. Players on WoW were exercising particular rights ... which they don't necessarily have under the laws of that land (see the licensing agreement).

What is most interesting to me is that, when the few in power do have a monopoly on policymaking and use of force, and when demonstrative protest is against the rules, it still happens when discontent and indignation reach an inflection point.

right to assemble?

[dtfarmer]

You've got to be kidding me. Paying a fee to play on privately owned servers implies no right to assemble (or any other 'rights' for that matter.) Statehood? Give me a break, it's a freakin' game! If you don't like the rules, you have an option - quit - vote with your pocketbook.

Re:right to assemble?

[Anonymous Coward]

How are they "assembling", anyway? It's all electrons. Sure, Blizzard can make the rules, but prohibiting assembly is like the gods saying that they don't want large congregations petitioning them.

Re:right to assemble?

[grumpygrodyguy]

If you don't like the rules, you have an option - quit - vote with your pocketbook.

I'm afraid it's just not that simple. People invest far more than money into these games, they invest hundreds of hours of time as well. If your time is worth as much as mine, you'll understand what that means.

Calling it a 'game' implies that it's just a pass-time like playing cards for a few hours, but that's not an accurate picture. MMORPGs are more like an alternative life. Whether you choose to judge that or not is up to you, but these people are well within their rights to defend what's important to them. For them, it's to have the time they invested in their character be respected.

Re:Big fucking deal.

[Seumas]

PvE is pointless. A lot of people want to play PvP. They just want to have a risk/reward/penalty system for it. There should be something to be gained by attacking someone and something to be lost by dying. As the game is (and has been), you can kill someone thirty levels below you and face absolutely no consequence. Likewise, you can kill someone ten levels above you and reap no reward. Further, there is no land or property or strategic positions to be gained by defeating anyone, including NPCs.

PvP without incentive isn't PvP. There should be more of a reason to engage in PvP than just "I'm in a bad mood" or the incidental "I better attack them before they attack me" while you're meandering down a road.

I know that they're working on battlegrounds, but that doesn't change anything for the rest of the game. There should always be something to gain or lose in battle. In WOW, you don't even acquire weapon, XP or monetary damage.

For the first month, WOW struck me as very unique and unlikely to suffer any serious boredom like most other MMORPGs. But then I noticed that it started to fall into a serious rut, due to the lack of PvP incentives. Not even a wanted list like in ShadowBane (so you could keep track of who killed you and maintain a vendetta against them).

Personally, I stopped playing a couple weeks ago. I'm not sure if I'm going to cancel or not like the parent poster. I'm not so much for graphics right now and am just keeping an eye out for a game that has really involved character generation, great gameplay and lots of adventure. Hell, I might even settle for a good MUD. :)

You've got to tell them!

[sporktoast]

I'm wondering if Blizzard sent in the scoops.

As Blizzard has said...

[Cookie3]

Warriors were being looked at. You can't expect the Blizzard devs to just look at the drivel in the forums and instantly assume, "Oh, because a tiny number of kids are complaining about warriors, they're obviously broken!"

First, players need to understand that Blizzard is a massive company. Blizzard has hired managers and moderators to filter out the noise to try and find meaningful posts. The devs may read the forums, but the moderators are supposed to organize the meaningful posts into reports, showing the issues and cultivating a positive atmosphere on the forums.

A post suggesting that Blizzard "nerf pallies" is quickly followed up by an equally uninformative post suggesting that the devs "buff warriors!" -- with inaccurate, undetailed and subjective posts like that, OF COURSE the Devs won't take action. The unintelligible posts, meanwhile, continued to accumulate, and ultimately generated the motivation for the march. Apparently some players are too stupid to be able to figure out that if THEY aren't being understood, that maybe the problem is on THEIR end.

Meanwhile, a handful of intelligable players wrote out their list of greviences and, in some cases, actually managed to get the moderators attention.. thus they KNEW the devs were actually, actively evaluating the issue.

Gee. Maybe it pays to realize that the world does not (yet) use AIM-speech as a standard of communication.

Re:As Blizzard has said...

[JVert]

I like how the whole point of: "Oh, because a tiny number of kids are complaining about warriors, they're obviously broken!"

When that "tiny number" is enough to cause a strain on the servers.

Re:As Blizzard has said...

[C0rinthian]

It doesn't take much. You get 100-150 people in one location and you've got a problem. Complicate this by having them gather in one of the areas with the highest population anyway, and it gets ugly.

The most populated servers have upwards of 10k concurrent users. I don't think 100-150 out of 10k is a majority.

Re:As Blizzard has said...

[Anonymous Coward]

A warrior is my main (level 50 atm), I think most of this protest is baseless and from people who do not understand the game. They seem to want warriors to be high damage fighters. That's called a rogue.

The job of a warrior in this and every other class based mmog is to be a defensive standoff fighter. Keep agro, take damage and hold the enemy. If the warrior class is short on anything right now, in my experience it's tools to hold agro. What warriors need is a small HP bonus, and a slight agro generatioin increase. Very minor tweaking will fix the class, but it's entirely playable as is. People who want to play a warrior to do damage should play a rogue, they're great at it.

Anyhow more important than listenting to never-ending whining about class balance is to fix server stability. No one is ever going to be happy with "class balance" until they learn the true nature of the game. These are largely strategy based games, and class roles are very much geared towards a certain tactics. If someone does not like what their class is used for, they will never be happy. Look at EQ, it has the best character balance in a MMOG (except for new classes which they should't have added) and people still bitch endlessly about "balance".

Know your role, play your role, or re-roll.

Gnome?

[KillerDeathRobot]

Sure, there were a lot of gnomes there, but this wasn't a "Million Gnome March" in the sense that it was about gnome rights. The phrasing in the blurb is ludicrous: gnomes are protesting because "their" class isn't balanced? Gnome is a race that can play several classes. This was a warrior protest, not a gnome protest, even if lots of gnomes were involved.

Re:Gnome?

[servognome]

I agree, the use of gnomes as a symbol for the downtrodden just shows how much anti-gnome racism there is.
Gnomes are consistantly ridiculed, mocked, taunted, and punted. To use them to put forward the agenda of nerfed warriors, without addressing the real community issues that lead to gnome bashing is the greatest travesty.
Gnomes cannot even be clerics, even the Gods of Blizzard hate gnomes and ignore their prayers!
-Squishi the Gnome Warrior

Re:Gnome?

[Anonymous Coward]

A friend of mine recently created a female gnome warrior. I only had one question for him; "does she have a flat head and big ears?"

He said she was cute, I thought she needed to be useful.

whiners

[Anonymous Coward]

I've yet to hear a valid complaint about the game's class balacing. I've tried all the classes, and had fun with all of them. If you feel your character is unbalanced, it's probably your lack of understanding of what the character does best that is the problem.

If they crashed my server...

[BaronSprite]

I would want them banned too, just because they don't like the game doesn't mean they have to hurt my playing time because of it, especially after a game master told them to disperse. Doesn't matter if you're a paying customer, you signed the EULA, "you're in their world now". Million gnome marches or whatever may be cute ideas on paper, but they can screw with other people who don't know/want anything to do with your cause, which sucks. Submit your ideas in a more constructive matter then getting others harmed in the process.

Re:If they crashed my server...

[JohnFluxx]

Heh, this sounds just like real politics. Unfortunately there are people like you in real life too.

Right to assemble?

[Cutriss]

Any person claiming that the SWG or WOW events was "repression" probably already has an axe to grind.

Computing resources are not infinite. Collecting a large number of people in a small space will cause everyone to lag out or crash the server. This affects people who aren't engaging in the protest, and therefore is a hindrance to other paying customers. Similarly, the government has the right to order or force protesters to disperse if they are inhibiting the operations of the government. You can lead a protest in the streets, as long as you don't block the roadways.

The solution is simple - Publishers need to be more communicative more with their customers and listen to complaints and address them as appropriate. Make it so that the people don't need to lead in-game protests. This was ultimately the cause of the SWG riots.

If you want to talk about repression, go look at the official SWG forums where dissenting opinions are ignored or deleted.

Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[MBraynard]

I wish I could survey those participating in the protest and ask of those 18 or older:

• Are you registered to vote?
• If so, how often do you vote? Did you participate in the primary or just the general? What about school board races?
• Have you ever written a letter to a newspaper to express your views?
• Have you ever contacted your elected representative via phone, mail, or email about an issue that is important to you
• Have you ever written a check to a political cause that is important to you to help fund the printing of fliers, to pay for advertising, or to support a full-time staff?
• Have you ever collected petitions or volunteered for a candidate or cause? Have you ever even signed a petition?

• Guessing the answer to every one of these is no for 90%+ of these guys. But they DO feel it is important enough to go to a march on a microchip in a place that exists in only ones and zeroes.

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[JVert]

How about:

Does politics have any real effect on your daily life?

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, all the people who say "yes" would just vote Libertarian anyway. They seem to believe that being Libertarian gets you more "freedom," but in reality it just gets George W. Bush re-elected.

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[Luyseyal]

Additionally:

Does the tax-shaped hole in your pocketbook have a real effect on you in any way?

-l

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[Guppy06]

"Did you participate in the primary or just the general?"

Ah yes, because if you're not a registered member of a political party, your opinion doesn't matter.

Primary elections are a party matter which, like all party matters, I want absolutely nothing to do with. If anything, I reject the party process outright and believe the people should be allowed to choose among all available candidates, not just the ones that the party has deigned to support.

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[Guppy06]

votes for Kerry + votes for Badnarik < votes for Bush

Heck, you can even throw in the votes Nader got and it still won't add up.

If you want people outside the Democratic party to vote for your candidate, offer an acceptable candidate. Otherwise, quit bitching about how everybody has opinions different from your own. Welcome to democracy, where the mob rules.

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[SamBeckett]

What kind of pompous asshole are you? No, really? I mean Jesus Christ, they participate in a friggin make believe demonstration and you are able to somehow draw conclusions about their apathy? What a load of shit.

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[Jaeph]

"Guessing the answer to every one of these is no for 90%+ of these guys."

Your guess means nothing sir. What you wrote was pure speculation and mostly drivel. You imply that reading a forum post and making a lvl 1 character are somehow great efforts, which they are not.

There is nothing insightfull about your post. It's the same old "kids today" crap that people have spewed since the dawn of time.

-Jeff

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[brkello]

And my question to you is: so what? Are some of the things you listed more important than protesting a class being weak in a game? Uh yeah, sure. Instead of playing any games, could we all volunteer our time to disabled people? Could we spend more time with the elderly? You can nit pick every thing anyone does for free time and ask...couldn't you be doing something better? The fact is, these people care about it...so they assembled together to try to get more attention on the subject. Who cares whether or not they participate in our political system. Just because you don't care about their game, doesn't make it worthless in their eyes. Also, last I checked, we live in a (semi)free country where it's every moron's right to ignore the political process. So get off your high horse, they are just playing a game.

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[MBraynard]

What retard moded this off topic?

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[Joe Tie.]

That was my first reaction as well. My second reaction was to realise that none of the things you listed would have much chance of making even a minor change in the life of the person doing it. Participating in something like the situation described in this story has a significantly higher chance of doing so.

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[MBraynard]

Totally, 100% false. I can personally take credit for an ordinance banning obscene T-shirts in my home town when I was in High School. I organized the student group to go down to the city hall, I showed up to make sure it was read, I spoke before the council in favor of the law.

I can also take at least partial credit for defeating Al Gore in 2000 because I was involved in the voter targeting of Tennessee (his home state).

Anyway, go ahead and think that if yuo want, but teams get stuff done and they need people - especially leaders.

Re:Too bad they don't get that way about RL

[Lord_Dweomer]

And who are you to judge what they deem important to vote on?

Parent is a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably a shaman troll by the sounds of it.

Damn the horde.

Re:Parent is a troll

[Seumas]

Human Paladin, in fact.

Race, class and faction are beside the point. The core of it is gameplay and at the moment, there isn't any. I mean, there is - but not on the PvP level. There's plenty of PvE. You get money, experience, quest logs to run through storylines. But when it comes to PvP... there's no payoff. No point. No incentive.

Even getting killed isn't much of a deal. I can get killed and be right back where I was in 45 seconds. No loss of experience, gold or equipment damage. And if I kill someone, they can be back equally as fast to face me down and be whacked over again.

I'd at least like to know that I'm getting my ass handed to me by a dozen horde for a reason, rather than their sheer boredom.

Anyway, it's the best MMORPG I've played to this point. It kept my interest the longest. But I'm probably going to move on and hope that something remarkable hits the shelves in the next few years.

Re:Parent is a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

No incentive? What about for fun?

I'm on a PvE server and have a whole lot of fun just defending against raids and attacking other cities. The PvE just means it's consentual PvP.

Also, your equipment does get damaged when you take damage, don't know how you've played the game without repairing your items.

Re:Parent is a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Human Paladin, in fact.

Nerf Pallys!

Re:Parent is a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that's why you didn't enjoy it. You were playing on easy mode.

Community run servers

[QuantumG]

I wonder what will happen when the GPL MMORPGs take off. Presumably people will eventually figure out that they can get a better game if 100% of their money is being used to maintain the server and develop content (instead of increasing shareholder value and paying fatcat managers). When players start actively participating in these "co-op" game systems we're going to see some real democratic process, and unlike the real world, where refusing to pay your "taxes" will land you in jail, it's the system that will fail if vast amounts of people refuse to pay their subscription until an issue like this one is resolved.

Re:Community run servers

[Jazu]

COMMUNIST!

Re:Community run servers

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what will happen when the GPL MMORPGs take off.

When will these mythical GPL MMOs take off exactly?

Re:Community run servers

[DarkFencer]

Real Democracy in MMORPGs? That would be horrible! I'll give you an example using World of Warcraft:

Two thirds or so of the population of WoW plays on the Alliance side (as opposed to the Horde). A real 'democracy' towards class/realm balance would cause the alliance side to be (even further) imbalanced (better quests/items/classes/content/etc).

I am definately in favor of a dictatorship for MMORPGs (though I love GPL software in general).

Re:Community run servers

[Anonymous Coward]

gpl mmorpg's? HA!

Name one that doesn't suck...

Re:Community run servers

[QuantumG]

It's in everyone's interest that the game be balanced. It seems strange to think that people would vote against their own interest.

Re:Community run servers

[NonSequor]

People do not perceive the issues accurately. Try reading the drivel that gets posted on the class-specific forums for any MMORPG and you'll see that everyone thinks that their class is in horrible shape compared to the others. A democratic MMORPG would embody all of the ills of democracy without any of its benefits.

Re:Community run servers

[C0rinthian]

Not if the class you play is on the positive side of the balance issues. most people who cry about balance are just upset a different class has the "I win" button. As soon as their class has it, they shut up about balance.

Re:Community run servers

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

Sorry, what on earth does the GPL have to do with corporate organisation or non-profit/for-profit system organisation? I think you're using your buzzwords incorrectly.

Re:Community run servers

[Dachannien]

Sorry, dude. You missed that boat.

Re:Community run servers

[thinlineofsanity]

It's in everyone's interest that the game be balanced. It seems strange to think that people would vote against their own interest.

It might be, but people want to win, to be first, to have the most power. Preciously -few- players would want a fair game, except when they're on the wrong side of the balance.

Competition itself negates any urge for a balanced game.

Re:Community run servers

[Reapy]

seriously. On the mage forum I see posts like, I want my spells to be dripping with pixels and look kewl! I want to summon gods and throw down big as spells, that would be so cool!!

Blizzard had done a great job balancing this game as far as I am concerened. That warrior post was fantastic by the dev, and should assure warriors about the changes they are working on, as well as how so much more thorough the devs are at analizing the data. Not to mention most warriors have no knoweldge of other classes, and have NO CLUE about how their changes will effect the game as a whole. I trust blizzard to do the balancing right, not a bunch of whiny people who havent even reached level 60 yet to fully understand their class.

Re:Community run servers

[arkanes]

In the optimal case, where *no* class has an "I Win" button, *everyone* will complain about balance. If I were a Blizzard dev I'd outright refuse to read the forums, and rely entirely on input from playtesters. Every single person posting something to the effect of "Aargh why don't the devs fix this don't the read the forums" is just one more reason that no, they don't read the damn forums.

Incidently, I spent about a half hour reading the forums just before I bought WoW, long enough to see that yes, indeed, every single class was bitching about getting nerfed. That was enough for me, and I have not (and hopefully never will) have to read that kind of crap again.

Re:Community run servers

[QuantumG]

There's no reason why people couldn't colaborate together and produce a proprietary game that is community funded.. it just doesn't seem to actually happen.

Re:Community run servers

[will_die]

They already exist and are called MUDS.

Re:Big fucking deal.

[Raven17]

Amen Brother Beavis!

Outsiders view

[tprime]

I don't play MMORPGs, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt as I am only seeing this from an IT background.

I think that the "threats" that Blizzard was giving were MORE than fair. Yes, people are paying for a service that they might be banned from, but does the fact that you pay for access to a web site allow you to launch a DDoS attack on it? If I worked at Blizzard, I would view it as a malicious attack on our ability to provide a service that would impact the rest of our paying customers.

Honestly, wouldn't it just be easier to drop the service and try one of the other 15 MMORPGS that are out there right now? That is really the only way a company will truly be influenced.

Go ahead, flame away.

Re:Outsiders view

[Walkiry]

>but does the fact that you pay for access to a web site allow you to launch a DDoS attack on it?

A DDoS? No, no, this was more like a slashdotting, not a DDoS, you had people logging in with their accounts (one each) and congregating in one of the available areas. You can argue that a /.ing isn't a very nice thing too, which I won't say I disagree with.

Also, I find it rather sad that the server went down with just that. Bliz is still way too far from their vision of massive PvP faction raids if the server can't handle these many gnomes.

Re:Outsiders view

[NinjaFarmer]

Its not just the gnomes there that crashed the server. Its the fact that they did it in the most populated location on the server that crashed it. If they had staged the protest in Elwynn the server could probably have handled the load.

Re:Outsiders view

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, wouldn't it just be easier to drop the service and try one of the other 15 MMORPGS that are out there right now? That is really the only way a company will truly be influenced.

Blizzard doesn't care if these people stay or leave...they already have more server load then they can handle, even without protests. Going to another service won't have any effect on how Blizzard operates.

Poor Xanen

[Slime-dogg]

Sheesh. I'm so glad I wasn't in his shoes. Imagine being responsible for the health of a server, while a whole crapload of people decide to squat on it.

I have to side with the warriors though. Blizzard has been far too unresponsive about balancing issues. The ones in this game, in particular, since the class can affect the end-game significantly. I've spent many hours working on a druid, and I can say that their end-game abilities suck when compared to classes like the rogue or shaman.

Blizzard needs to provide updates on what they are doing to remedy the situation, just like normal software engineers have to do.

Re:Poor Xanen

[NinjaFarmer]

If you read the Blizzard post, you would see that it is probably the most response ever given by an MMORPG developer and addresses everything you said.

I do think that they should make a response like that on a more regular basis. A monthly State of the Game post compiled by several developers.

Re:Poor Xanen

[llefler]

I don't mean this as a flame, but I have to wonder if people who talk about an 'end-game' really understand MMORPGs. They tend to be the group that rushes to the maximum level in a month or two and then complains about lack of content before they move on.

MMORPGs tend to develop communities, that's why they have guilds and allegiances. They are just as much about interacting with other players as they are about achieving levels.

Also, since there are so many different ways to build a character, classes can have their strengths at different levels. For example, there's a lot of talk about how powerful Paladins are. But I found my paladin difficult to play solo at level 17 (compared to my hunter, warrior, or mage) and eventually rerolled him into a rogue. There is something wrong with a toon that has 1000 armor level not being able to stand up to the same creatures as a equal level mage wearing cloth. It seemed like I was wasting all kinds of gold on abilities that were designed solely for group play, with very few offensive/defensive abilities. My play style made the paladin inferior to every other class I have played.

Nothing wrong here.

[Temporal]

The admins had a point: This silly march was harming the gameplay experience for other players. Dun Morogh is a beginner region, so causing that area to have technical problems from server load will hurt people who are trying to play the game for the first time, perhaps leading to believe that the game sucks in general.

If you want to compare to the real-life right to assemble, then what the protesters were doing is more analogous to blocking traffic. If you block traffic in real life as part of a protest, you will be arrested. The right to assemble does not imply the right to make things difficult for other people with your assembly.

In any case, the whining about balance issues misses an important point: "Balance" does not mean that any two players of equal level will be evenly matched in a 1v1 duel. "Balance" means that each class has a niche to fill. For every class there is some situation where that class is better than all the others.

It seems silly to complain about warriors because warriors serve one of the most important roles in the game. Every group needs warriors to stand in front and take the damage ("tank") while the others do their things. It is, in fact, more important for a warrior to be able take damage than deal damage. The only other class that you could say this of is paladins, but even that is debatable.

And, anyway, who cares which class is most powerful? It's obviously more important to consider which class is most fun to play, and that completely depends on your own taste. If you don't enjoy playing a warrior, don't play a warrior.

Re:Nothing wrong here.

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

It is, in fact, more important for a warrior to be able take damage than deal damage.

It doesn't matter how many times you, or I, or Blizzard ( it's in the manual ) say this, it seems nobody is listening. From playing other games, they expect their warriors to be the last word in damage dealing. World of Warcraft doesn't work like this - deal with it. If you want to sit at the apex of the food chain, play a Rogue or a Mage.

Instead of constantly neurotically comparing themselves to every other class / player, these people need to sit down and assess, 1) Am I enjoying my playing experience? 2) Am I enjoying it enough to warrant what it costs?

If the answer to either of these questions is "No", they should either try playing the game differently, or leaving it altogether.

Re:Nothing wrong here.

[FunkSoulBrother]

In any case, the whining about balance issues misses an important point: "Balance" does not mean that any two players of equal level will be evenly matched in a 1v1 duel. "Balance" means that each class has a niche to fill. For every class there is some situation where that class is better than all the others.

Well freaking said.

I've never seen anything more in whining about balance than 'gimme gimme gimme'. I mean give this people a game of Madden Football and they'd probably complain that the Eagles are overpowered and that the Saints have been "nerfed".

Re:Nothing wrong here.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it did more then cause problems in the area where they were, it was bringing down the entire Eastern Continent. I was down in Booty Bay, other people were up at the Monastary, and we all got dropped 3-5 times before they took the server down entirely.

Which was the actual point of the protesters, they picked a high population Roleplaying server deliberately to try and piss off as many people as possible. (there were posts from the protesters stating as much)

Deliberately trying to screw the game up for a few thousand people is not a legitimate protest, its in game terrorism. IMHO they should have started throwing around permanent bans after these idiots were told to disperse for the second time.

Re:Nothing wrong here.

[Slime-dogg]

You're right, for the most part. There isn't any reason why a warrior couldn't re-roll their character as a rogue. Most people don't like tanking because it is unglamorous, and they'd rather have the 1337 damage instead.

Imagine, though. Once they roll a rogue, they start to realize that they die easier as a rogue. Rogues don't have the armor skills and defensive stances that warriors do. Rogues tend to draw aggro, because they deal so much damage.

The top damage machine, the mage, can only wear cloth armor. Mages are one of the hardest classes to solo, they are best paired with someone else, especially a warrior. Same deal for priests.

Re:Nothing wrong here.

[llefler]

It is, in fact, more important for a warrior to be able take damage than deal damage.

I completely agree, with a couple exceptions. A warrior can be built as either offensive or defensive. Dual wield for instance, is an offensive choice. You trade your shield (defensive) for another weapon (offensive). You also make choices when you apply your talent points.

Also, as far as being able to take damage, I'm not convinced that armor helps as much as it should. Warrior are an equipment dependant class, and it seems like its much better to have stamina boosting armor than higher AL. A 1000 AL warrior should take significately less damage than a 400 AL hunter. (mail vs leather)

What if....

[Polarism]

their passions don't revolve around politics?

What if these people simply do not care about that? What if they're so sick of how badly broken it is, they'd rather concentrate on things that make them happy rather than trying to fix a system that will never be fixed while any of us are alive?

I'm not saying that participating in the system is wrong or pointless for everyone, the people who do will have a good impact on it, and the people who do not wish to, can live ignorantly happily within it. I'd rather use my supposed ~75+ years on this planet enjoying the ride, seeing as in all probability it's the only shot you get here.

All sorts of people are meant to do all sorts of things, some become soldiers, doctors, teachers, firefighters, drunks, murderers, rapists, drug addicts, bums, presidents and politicians, miners and athletes, and a list a mile long I can't finish here. We all have our purposes, some of us aren't mean to be a part of a system that epitomizes all the horrible things about human nature they would rather not be enveloped in.

So instead of forcing your system onto people who don't want it, be happy with what you are and the choices you make, because I don't see them forcing their system onto you either.

Re:What if....

[Anonymous Coward]

What if these people simply do not care about that? What if they're so sick of how badly broken it is, they'd rather concentrate on things that make them happy rather than trying to fix a system that will never be fixed while any of us are alive?

I'm not saying that participating in the system is wrong or pointless for everyone, the people who do will have a good impact on it, and the people who do not wish to, can live ignorantly happily within it. I'd rather use my supposed ~75+ years on this planet enjoying the ride, seeing as in all probability it's the only shot you get here.

This might be why the system is broken in the first place, right here. If we (you, me, and every other person) believe that the system cannot be fixed in our lifetime, then the system will never be fixed. Ever. Someone has to take the first step, sacrificing so that future generations can have a government of justice, rather than continuing the slide into a government of the few.

Took the words...

[JasdonLe]

...right out of my mouth. I was thinking the exact same thing. Who the hell writes these things?

From the "wtf-bbq-hax" dept.

[Pseudosapiens]

As a Blizzard customer and World of Warcraft subscriber I demand the right to assemble with large numbers of thoroughly incompetent teenagers in low level zones to protest the imbalance of [insert class/race/skill here], regardless of how many times the developers have said "we know, we're working to address the issue." Any negative effects of this protest indicate Blizzard's inability to "learn some programming wtf." Clearly the players know more about running an online game for hundreds of thousands of people and have a better understanding of how [class/race/skill] balance works than the people that spent several years developing the game. Seriously. Let's start an online petition or something.

Re:From the "wtf-bbq-hax" dept.

[Rallion]

If I saw this posted on the official WoW forums, I'd say there would be a 75% chance that it wasn't a joke.

Videos, screen shots, etc.

[antdude]

I posted this a few days ago on my AQFL Web site:

Death_Knight's thread (screen shots [nice ion canon] and comments) mentions a FilePlanet (account required -- free or subscription) video file link (87 MB) with Gnomevasion in World of Warcraft. Here is the video file description: "What happens when you take 300 players, throw in teamwork, voice communication, a server crash, and one of the greatest guilds of all time? You get Gnomevasion! In this video members of Sturmgrenadier form up on an alternate server in WoW when their home of Bleeding Hollow goes down. Hilarity ensues when each and every member wreaks chaos on an unsuspecting server with pink-haired pig-tailed gnomes! Download this video and witness the true power of a Gnomevasion."

Non-FilePlanet sites: #1, #2, and #3 (BitTorrent files).

Funny music video! It is two minutes and 20 seconds. Check it out!

Re:Videos, screen shots, etc.

[The Evil Couch]

whoever owns http://goldenh.dyndns.org/ is gonna be upset with you in the morning. :p

What game?

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one, without reading the articles or comments, that didn't know what game the /. article was talking about?

Or am I the only geek not interested in WoW?

Re:What game?

[Rethcir]

Nope, same here. It's not that I'm not interested, I just haven't had the time to pick it up and play it yet due to college and all that. Don't the slashdot editors have any kind of editorial process to weed out problems like this? Argh.

I disagree with the admins

[xutopia]

I find it disgraceful how in America there is such a contradiction. We're guys are so loud and clear about free speech yet we're the first to blast anyone who uses their right if it happens to bother someone in the process. If a group of people can be so frustrated that they want to publicly display their anger it should be allowed. If it slows other people down in a game, or stops traffic at an important intersection so much the better. They aren't killing anyone, just trying to bring attention to a problem that could, if resolved, help everyone.

Re:I disagree with the admins

[finkployd]

If it slows other people down in a game, or stops traffic at an important intersection so much the better.

Whereas I support the concept of running people down who feel that their whiny crusade is more important than anything else and feel it is their right to stop traffic ;)
Here is a hint, if you have to annoy other people to raise awareness for your cause then either your cause sucks or your communication skills suck. Either way you will not be recuriting fighters for the cause by pissing people off.

Finkployd

Re:I disagree with the admins

[Chasuk]

I join a salad club (one of many) so that I can enjoy salads that are available exclusively to salad club members. I can't enjoy these salads unless I am a salad club member.

Analogous referent: I sign up for Internet access (from one of many ISP's) so that I can play on-line games. I can't play on-line games without an Internet connection.

Out of many varieties of salad, I choose Rudy's Special #6. This is a potato salad. There were many different potato salads availabe, but I chose Rudy's Special #6.

Analogous referent: Out of many on-line games, I choose World of Warcraft. This is a MMORPG. There were many different MMORPG's available, but I chose World of Warcraft.

I discover that Rudy's Special #6 contains onions. I don't like onions. I suggest to Rudy (the maker of Rudy's Special #6) that he modify the ingredients of his salad so that it is more to my liking. Rudy isn't responsive.

Analogous referent: I discover that World of Warcraft contains gameplay issues that I dislike. I suggest to Blizzard (the makers of World of Warcraft) that they modify their game so that it is more to my liking. Blizzard isn't responsive.

What should I do? Should I:

1. Stop buying Rudy's Special #6, and buy a salad which doesn't contain onions?
2. Scream and pout that Rudy didn't make changes to Rudy's Special #6, but continue to order it?
3. Disrupt Rudy's business operations, so that even those who are happy with Rudy's Special #6 suffer?

Analogous referent(s):

1. Stop playing World of Warcraft, and play a MMORPG which doesn't contain gameplay issues that I dislike?
2. Scream and pout that Blizzard didn't modify their game, but continue to play it?
3. Disrupt Blizzard's business operations, so that even those who are happy with World of Warcraft suffer?

Assholes choose #3. The stupid, or the hypocrites (often the same person) choose #2.

Re:I disagree with the admins

[ildon]

You're a fucking moron. On a private server run by a private company you have zero rights. And what they were doing was not a "peaceful protest" it was the equivilent of a denial of service attack because WoW, other than instances, basically has two "zones" total. Meaning any lag caused in this little newbie area affects the entire continent.

Further, what they were "protesting" had already been address numerous times. Game development companies can't just wave some magic wand and magically fix class balance in a week. It takes time to develop a solution, code it, bug fix it, playtest it in all situations, levels 1-60, pvp and pve, group and solo, and make sure it provides a challenging, rewarding, and fun experience in all situations.

Not to mention the fact that 90% of people complaining about the warrior simply don't know how to play the class. Unlike druids which are basically useless, and warlocks whose gameplay mechanic is totally broken especially in pvp.

Re:I disagree with the admins

[Boronx]

I suppose it would depend on whether you lived in Salad number 6. If that is where you spend you free-time, imagination and emotion, then you might choose differently.

Re:I disagree with the admins

[geminidomino]

I'd think that would suggest a rather unhealthy level of obsession with the game, if you view yourself as "living" in it.

Re:I disagree with the admins

[Boronx]

I agree with you, but in the future, you and I will be viewed as bigots for saying it out loud.

Re:I disagree with the admins

[Boronx]

And the games are engineered to create these obsessions, so Blizzard is not as blameless as a salad chef might be.

Re:I disagree with the admins

[Anonymous Coward]

The salad chef makes the salad so people will like it, so they are just as much to blame as Blizzard is for making a game you will like.

For those who are obsessed about WOW and cannot go elsewhere for your entertainment, I suppose that you also support the lawsuits against McDonalds for making people fat, right? And Coke/Pepsi ruins people's teeth, so we need to sue them. Cars make it so we do not walk as much so we need to sue the people who make them... The list goes on and on of the people we will blame because we like their products too much to change our behaviors.

Re:I disagree with the admins

[Anonymous Coward]

A few things,

1. MMOs are different than said salad club. Unless Ruby's #6 was made in part by you, or was at designed to make you feel like you are part of the process of making the salad, there is a big difference in the product. Your analogy does not account for the feelings of community, and immersive interaction that MMOs intend to by design.

2. If you read the fixes that were hinted at by the Bliz community rep, you would see that many of the Warrior issues are bugs or mechanics that are making the class not function as was intended. Therefore instead of onions, maybe there should be some flies in the #6 that were not intended.

3. There seems to be a sizable contingent of people who play Wow because it is a blizz game (I am one, I hated every other MMO I've played) and not because its an MMO. So lets say to me its the only salad with potatos in the club and I only like potato salad.

4. If all the other salads had 2 or 3 things you dont like in them, but the #6 had only the onions, whouldnt you try to get the #6 without onions?

Server Stress

[Megane]

The GM whinings about "affecting other people's gaming experience" remind me of back in the days of Gemstone II (back when it ran on GEnie). Whenver they had a wedding, there would usually be 30-50 players in the same room. You could count on the game crashing sometime during the wedding. (At least the GMs were cool with it.) Hopefully they didn't crash a server with this. :)

1. Protest in underwear
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

A more appropriate response ...

[bigsteve@dstc]

from the admins might have been to unleash a fearsome monster with an insatiable appetite for naked gnomes. Or may be just some old fashioned thunderbolts.

If a denizen of an alternative reality complains about the nature of that reality, the gods may get angry.

Re:A more appropriate response ...

[Slime-dogg]

heh. It'd be easier just to move the character into the middle of Dun Modr or Stormgarde instead. I remember being "moved" once in the beta, but that was because my body was unretrievable.

Re:A more appropriate response ...

[llefler]

from the admins might have been to unleash a fearsome monster with an insatiable appetite for naked gnomes. Or may be just some old fashioned thunderbolts.

No mod points today, but this is truly insightful. It raises the question; didn't they include mechanisms to protect the server from crashes in the event that too many people congregated in one area? My previous MMORPG, AC, handled that with portal storms. Once a threshold was passed, random toons were randomly portalled.

But I can see a system where once a safe threshold is reached, an automated message is sent to players to disperse. And then once it reaches another level, a GM would be free to instantiate a WoW appropriate beast that dealt out penalty free/no corpse death.

o_O umm ok we KNOW already

[falcon5768]

Its storys like this that make me glad I didnt turn fanboy and run off to WoW cause it was "teh uber"

First off, I can see Blizzards stance on the balence issue, in the fact that there is no issue beyond the fact that people dont like playing warriors because they arnt rouges... but well last I looked thats the POINT it is supposed to be different. To take this into terms more in line as to FFXI which is what I play, people (cough NA teenybopers cough) have taken the ninja class to be the end all class in that game, despite the fact it has many downfalls and for most people gets boring real fast because it involves lots of money ,making and downtime simply because it has a spell that allowes for blink tanking. Is it a good tank, depends on what your fighting but regardless everyone goes for the class.

Because of this people complain now that other classes are not balenced, two of the biggest being dragoon and thief. The only thing is its MENT to be that way, no one job can do it all and quite frankly most players who play nin cant hack it to begin with. Is it the developers responsibility to change the game dynamics for those other classes? No not at all. People just have to get smart about the fact that Ninjas arnt all that.

Next is the squatting issue, this swings both way for me, in one way the developers where right to do something because quite frankly you dont have a right to damage propety which theoretically by causing server problems you technically are. Even in the real world you would likely have gotten arrested for that.

From the other standpoint though, these are paying customers too so Bizzard really needs to have more tact. Recently we held a funeral service for a player in who died in RL on Fenrir server in FFXI and the GMs came out in full armor to honor him. Im sure had GMs done something simular and said something to cool the crowd down the situation wouldnt have gotten as bad as it did in WoW.

Re:o_O umm ok we KNOW already

[Anonymous Coward]

Some interesting points here (I'm a fellow FFXI player, on Odin server). However, I'm not quite sure what you mean with your "NA teenyboppers" comment. My experiences in game have been that NA players (and I say this as a Euro who imported the game from the US in 2003) are more polite, friendly and often plain better than the much-hyped jp players.

Moving swiftly on...

The Ninja job is indeed a pretty weird proposition. Square-Enix never really intended it to be a tank - blink-tanking was a largely unintentional side-effect of the job's abilities that players discovered pretty quickly. Of course, this raises the question of what the hell they *did* intend Ninja to be, because it's not especially good at anything else (unless I'm missing a trick with the elemental attacks), but never mind. I do agree that blink tanking has a reputation vastly above what it deserves. Yes, when done well by a player who has been willing to plough several million gil into the job, it can cut down your need for healing a bit. However, with its terrible defence and low hp, a Ninja tank is only ever a couple of hits from disaster. Moreover, it can't hold hate anything like as well as a Paladin (or even a competent Warrior), so your damage dealers need to be a lot more restrained. It can't even use "Cover" if it does lose hate, so your mages are always going to be in danger. I've taken Ninja through to level 40 (Paladin is my main job, at 60), and while it's fun at times, it's neither the most powerful nor the most exciting job in the game. I suspect it owes its reputation to the fact that both the flag quest and the quest to get the utsusemi scroll are so difficult (comparitavely speaking).

The Dragoon and Thief issue is also amusing, as you say. It's true that both of these jobs are frequently accused of being "nerfed", but I suspect this is more about the people who play as them than the jobs themselves. Thief is actually one of the most important jobs in the game - it may not be the greatest damage, but its trick attack ability is pretty much essential for any tank other than a Paladin to keep hate at higher levels. The problem with Dragoon is simply that people go into the job because it looks cool without understanding both the cost required or the importance of the wyvern. A dragoon who is willing to invest in his equipment (by which I mean "buy sniper rings") and ensure that his wyvern stays alive should be capable of just as much damage as a Dark Knight or Samurai.

Of course, there are a lot of players out there, both JP, US and EU, who just refuse to listen to reason. Looks like the same thing might be happening in WoW.

Re:o_O umm ok we KNOW already

[InsideTheAsylum]

Actually... Dragoon *IS* gimped, just only after they get in the sixties when the level 3 skill chains come into play. They aren't very good closers and there are much better openers so they are purely SOL if the party can find another job. Ninja is pretty good job, you just need a trick partner and a thief to SATA the damage on you and then there's nothing you can do to peel the hate off.. Alas, there are very few parties who utilize a ninja properly. You should try Ninja/Blackmage after 51. Get a moldavite, all the HQ Elemental Staves and spam the elemental circle with Ninjutsu ;) And sorry, Ninja is no longer the end all, be all of the game.. That title goes to ranger/ninja! After the introduction of Promyvion, RNG/NINs true power was shown as they were one of the few classes that could take on Promyvion were you not an exceptional party with uber equipment and several thousand in food and potions.

Re:o_O umm ok we KNOW already

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh...

I've got Ranger/Ninja to almost 50 now and yes, it's pretty uber. I'm not convinced it's necessary for Promyvions - my experience has been that so long as you take time to farm animas first and make sure everybody knows the battle plan, most reasonably sensible party-lineups can do them without godlike equipment or stacks of medicine. However, there's no denying that RNG/NIN is an awesome damage combo, not least because its ability to blink allows it to take a few hits when it (almost inevitably) pulls hate away from the tank.

Again, though, the problem is that it's not a job for the faint-hearted and wouldn't actually be particularly good for a large number of problems. You need to put some serious gil into this job. My own equipment is probably worth about 1.9 million on Odin (leaping boots, jagd gorget, emperor hairpin, noct +1, two hawkers knives) and that's ignoring the constant gil-drain of arrows and shihei. Try to do the job with significantly less than that and, yes, you'll feel a bit nerfed.

I love FFXI, but one of the things that really irks me about it is the lack of flexibility that you *really* have with the jobs system. Yes, the job/subjob system really allows for a huge number of combinations, but in reality, most jobs only have 1 or 2 subjobs that they can realistically use. It would have been nice to be able to play characters with a bit more of an individual flavour, rather than having to chase after some supposed ideal for each job if you want to get parties.

Re:o_O umm ok we KNOW already

[Rallion]

Im sure had GMs done something simular and said something to cool the crowd down the situation wouldnt have gotten as bad as it did in WoW.

You cleary don't know these WoW players. They're the ones that think Blizzard's main goal is to ruin their gameplay experience. They have NO respect for any Blizzard employees and don't believe anything they say, because they refuse to accept the difficulties inherent in running a game of this size and scope. They expect to be given an insane amount of information, they expect every change they request to be implemented.

Subjects suck

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that they don't have the "right to assemble," it's just that Blizzard can't solve the problem of the game lagging to hell (then crashing) when too many people gather in one place. It's a common problem for "raids" also

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[Boronx]

And that's why the protests happen, and why they fail.

Why would someone protests a frickin game? Because their life is the game. Why do the protests fail? Because they garner no sympathy. Not many whose life isn't wrapped up in an online game look on those whose life *is* so committed with anything better than disapproval.

I don't play WoW or any other such game, but I have many friends that do. I used to think as you do, but over the last few months I see my views changing. Blizzard and Sony and other companies are profiting off of young people that are giving their lives over to the game. The libertarian bullshit that this is just another business transaction does not even come close to cutting it.

These companies have a moral obligation to their players that extends beyond what's set out in the written service agreement.

Re:Big fucking deal.

[The Evil Couch]

PvE is pointless. A lot of people want to play PvP.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I haven't seen stats for server size in awhile, but a year or two ago, with all the major MMORPGs combined the PVE server population was around 80% compared to the 20% held by PVP.

more people would rather just play a game with their friends than worry about being ganked. it's pretty much the way I've looked at it since UO opened up PVP.

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[torpor]

My point is: DON'T GIVE YOUR LIFE TO A VIDEO GAME.

You are nothing more than a robot rat, a simple freakin' number, trapped in a cage made of pixels.

Video Game companies *WANT* you to be trapped in their world, forever playing.. its their profit, and *YOUR LOSS*. Yes, damn right, they *WANT YOU TO WASTE YOUR LIFE AWAY WITH THEIR PRODUCT*.

Never Been in a Riot.

[DingerX]

Okay folks, we've had really big MP games for something like 30 years now, it's time to cull some principles for future development:

1. When online, people will not always play the "game", whatever the game is. They will do stupid stuff. So give them a place to do it. All you need is a barren landscape jutting up against some mountains, and a Zardoz head for the admins to intervene. Think about it.
whiner: My warrior class is nerfed
developer: The penis is evil. The penis shoots the seed upon the earth that spreads the plague of men.
whiner:we're not moving until you meet our demands!
developer:the gun is good.
every manner of rifle, pistol and ueberweapon shoots out of the mouth

Err.. sorry about that. Anyway, give them somewhere to do stupid things like crash the server.

2. Mass banning tools. Sometimes you need to kick off hundreds of people with one stroke. Griefers have friends too.

3. Riot Cops. Forum whining is an age-old tradiiton. When people want to make their voice known in the game, by pretending that their little virtual world is a democracy, smack them down. Most of those "virtual protesters" aren't gonna be there so much for the point they're making as they are for the thrill of causing havoc and virtually protesting. So why not virtually teargas them? Get out the virtual riot squad, the virtual water cannons and rubber bullets, and take them down. or hell, have some virtual riot control vehicle drive into the crowd, with bodies flying everywhere, and blasting "PLEASE DISPERSE" through everyone's earphones. Even better, recruit your own pinkerton squads. promise plenty of levelling action for anyone willing to go and kill those protesters. Turn on PvP and let the social dynamics of the game work itself out.

Re:Never Been in a Riot.

[Boronx]

I'm not MMORPG player, but I'd guess that option 3 would draw more people to the riot since it would likely be the most exciting thing happening on the server.

Okay so you protested

[Moo Moo Cow of Death]

Isn't the point of protesting to get noticed? I'm pretty sure a GM coming on and telling the protesters to stop destroying their server is a reasonably easy way to tell that you have been noticed.

So why the fuck didn't you log off like they asked? For god's sake, did you expect to march until they fixed the "problem" right then and there? Were you expecting a goddamn midnight blitz of programmers to swarm down upon the server machine and magically make it all better? You made your freaking point, what do you want to do now? Destroy the server because of your class envy? (nearly every other post was about how Rogues were so "uber l33t").

And what's this crap about "I pay for the game I can do whatever I want"? I thought we were out of elementary school, kids, I thought we knew better than to piss off the park ranger and then try to piss ON the park ranger when he told us to stop chopping down the goddamn trees.

You can't honestly expect any type of "fair use" policy to apply here people. You're destroying other people's right to play who may not give a flying fuck about your class yet you expect that you should be treated quite the opposite when it comes to YOUR right to play (i.e. the GMs shouldn't kick you off).

From what I see, your issues have been addressed...so...find another outlet guys:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=w ow-warrior&t=85008&p=1&tmp=1#post85008

Not quite...

[HarvardAce]

You could be in the heart of the orc home lands as a human and not worry about being injured in a PvE server.

Actually, when you enter a major city of the opposing faction, your PvP flag is turned on and people of the opposing faction can attack you at will if they so desire, even if you are on a PvE server. I believe the ways to turn on your PvP flag in a PvE server are as follows:

1. Entering a major city zone of the opposing faction.
2. Attacking an NPC of the opposing faction.
3. Aiding a player who is attacking a member of the opposing faction.
4. Turning on your PvP flag manually.

eh?

[Zhirem]

I can't hear you... Could you possibly *TYPE LOUDER*?

8)

A proposal for actually roleplaying a protester

[dmauro]

As stated before, you are not Roleplaying a protester if you are protesting game rules or how the game is programmed. That is why we need a march to Iron Forge to protest that horrible bread wench who never stops screaming about her wares. If we all Roleplay protesters and march on Iron Forge, perhaps we can get her to finally shut up.

What's really hillarious about this....

[jayhawk88]

...is that all these people are getting upset with Blizzard about balance issues.

Blizzard, not caring about balance. Anyone who knows anything about Blizzard games can appreciate the humor in this. This is the company that put out 8 patches trying to balance the Zerg right in Starcraft. The company that put the 1.10 patch out in Diablo 2 two years after the games release, balancing Summoning Necros. The company that was averaging probably 10-20 buff/nerfs a patch during W3's heyday trying to get all the races/heros balanced.

Go ask Star Wars Galaxies or Everquest players about balance. They'll tell you they'd give their left nut to have Sony care half as much about balance as Blizzard does. Blizzard will balance the Warrior. People just need to have a little patience.

WTF! Are you insane?

[AzraelKans]

How can SLASHDOT can be on PRO of such an stupid matter? WOW has had considerable online problems due to overpopulation and server stressing that are still being sorted out, problems that affects hundreds of paying enthusiast players, and that cost the company thousands of dollars to solve and headaches the size of calcuta to their users. A gathering of a thousand fucking HOBBITS, KNOMES or FAIRIES, to protest because they are completely incompetent is definetily NOT OK. use some common sense people! (besides those kind of characters are supposed to be incompetent, havent you ever read LOTR? "the most unlikely of critters"?) that is like someone finding a bleeding wound in a horse we are all riding in, and fetch the largest bag of salt available to pour it right in!

If I had the vote in Blizzard I will personally send a warning email to everyone, prohibiting such actions under the penalty of temporary or even permanent banning. If you had an issue such as that to discuss , guess fucking what? theres a forum precisely for that!

On the meantime, I invite users to personally report, player kill, maim, abandon, ignore or teleport to hell any user even attempting to perform such an action. Not without first using as many four letter expletetives as possible on the victim.

Why do I have a strong feeling, that penny arcade is probably going to post their opinion on this matter? and that a lot of blood and cursing will be involved on it?

Go ahead MOD my day!

Re:Big fucking deal.

[Slime-dogg]

WoW PvP is a bit different than other games. Being on a PvP server in other games means that you could be ganked by anyone. In WoW, PvP means that the opposing faction can freely gank you.

Essentially, you're protected more in the WoW realm than in others. If you stay in non-contested areas, you are not going to be killed. If you are in constested areas, you have to realize that, and deal with consequences of it.

That's why some of the most populated servers in WoW are the PvP ones. I play PvE, mostly because PvP has absolutely no in-game benefit. Battlegrounds will be available for both server types, it will have actual benefits for PvP. Until then, I'm content while collecting big bear bones and furry wolf manes.

Isn't the First M for Massive

[SwimsWithTheFishes]

I am not a MMORPG player, so help me out here.

Isn't the first 'M' in MMORPG for MASSIVE.

I counted about 70ish Gnomes. That seems like a whole lot less than MASSIVE. So how does 70ish characters crash a server? Even if they are in their underwear and not naked as promised.

Also, it sure seems to me that WOW blew a really great opportunity to for (good) free publicity and a great way to enhance customer satisfaction, instead of all this (I assume) bad press and unhappy Gnome customers.

How do they know these Gnomes aren't going to roam off to a competitor?

Re:Isn't the First M for Massive

[MeatBlast]

Well frist off Blizzard has been having server problems and the fact that 70 people are walking in the same exact place, dosn't help. They're probably trying to fix the problem and is just ignoring the stupid gnome "marches". They know that no one will leave for a differnt game because all the other MMORPGs suck ass.

Re:Isn't the First M for Massive

[Anonymous Coward]

Their server handled it. The new player who just got their game and logged in better have an insane system to be able to handle 70+ characters being drawn on his screen.

Most likely yes.

[Polarism]

I'm not about to try to fix it though, since I don't care enough.

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[Boronx]

I understand your point and I agree with you.

Video Game companies *WANT* you to be trapped in their world, forever playing.. its their profit, and *YOUR LOSS*. Yes, damn right, they *WANT YOU TO WASTE YOUR LIFE AWAY WITH THEIR PRODUCT*.

Yes, of course. The companies will never admit it unless you force them to, but they bear some responsibility for the millions of souls trapped in their seemingly pointless, well-tuned-to-human-perception product. While I tend to agree that the "Million Gnome March" is ridiculous, I don't think it's as plainly so as many posting here would have it.

Stupid warriors......

[MeatBlast]

I play WoW and have a level 17 Gnome Rouge. I have played as a Warrior before and it was okay but I mean it's a warrior, they bash stuff and kill things! There are so many great classes in WoW, so just stop whining and play as something else (like a rouge or a hunter). I'm a fan of the 1st Amendment and all but c'mon guys it's a game.

Re:Stupid warriors......

[krenn]

A Gnome ROUGE? Not only do we have gnomes protesting in their underwear but we have cross dressing protesting gnomes. I think this classifies as To Much Information...Its gonna scar me for life I tell ya...

You lack perspective. I think I can help you.

[nobodyman]

I find it disgraceful how in America there is such a contradiction. We're guys are so loud and clear about free speech yet we're the first to blast anyone who uses their right if it happens to bother someone in the process

Hmm... I thorougly understand your point. It has caused me to spend a few hours of soul-searching, believe you me. I think, though, that I might (just possibly) be able to help you out a bit by bringing to light a point which you may have overlooked:

IT'S A FUCKING VIDEO GAME

While on the subject: If the parent's post resonates with you, please reply with the subject line: "w00t xutopia!", so that I can easily discern who needs to be added to the List of People Who Must Not be Allowed to Reproduce. Thanks.

Re:You lack perspective. I think I can help you.

[Anonymous Coward]

apparently you're one of those who cannot reproduce. Had you had sex in the last 10 years you probably'd be a bit more humane.

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[DerWulf]

oh thanks for defining how my life should be. Who made you god? Also: will I be locked up as insanse and delusional if I disagree with you (ärhm don't see the wisdom in you words) so that you might help me find the true path?
On a side note: Can you do what every scientist, thinker and philosopher failed to do for the last 5000 years? Can you find proove that reality is an objective thing outside your subjective mind? If not, could you clarify how one subjective reality (perceived world) is 'realer' than an other subjective reality (imagined world)? In other words, does it, outside a discussion of features, truly matter if I prefer one fictional life over another fictional life?

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[Boronx]

will I be locked up as insanse and delusional if I disagree with you

No, but I won't be surprised if people will be locked up for playing a MMORPG at some point.

On a side note: Can you do what every scientist, thinker and philosopher failed to do for the last 5000 years? Can you find proove that reality is an objective thing outside your subjective mind?

Well, there's the famous "kicking the table over" proof, but that may not be proof enough for some. Anyway, it's not a serious question. You're basically wondering if you are really God and you just don't know it. There's two possibilities: the self-evident one that you're not, or that you are, in which case who cares what I think?

In other words, does it, outside a discussion of features, truly matter if I prefer one fictional life over another fictional life?

Does anything in the universe matter except to us? What meaning is there except that generated by a perceiving mind? (That's a different question than whether anything exists except in the perceptions of the mind) BTW, the only thing fictional about WoW is the story line and the stories people tell themeselves in their own heads while they're playing, the game and consequences of it are very real.

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[servognome]

Video Game companies *WANT* you to be trapped in their world, forever playing.. its their profit, and *YOUR LOSS*.
I didn't realize WoW was like Tron. Do we have to take down Master Control to stop playing once we start?
I pay the game companies money, and in return I am entertained; same as going to a movie, football game, or out drinking.
Yes, damn right, they *WANT YOU TO WASTE YOUR LIFE AWAY WITH THEIR PRODUCT*.
And restaurants want you to eat your life away, and cell phone companies want you to chat your life away, and hotels/airlines want you to travel your life away with their services/products.

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[torpor]

And restaurants want you to eat your life away, and cell phone companies want you to chat your life away, and hotels/airlines want you to travel your life away with their services/products.

you get nothing out of video games.

you gain sustenance from restaurants, and shelter from hotels. airlines physically move you from one place to the other.

"games as entertainment" is only selling you the chance to wander mentally in a realm of little more than smoke and mirrors, nothing less..

as for whether its entertainment, i dunno. i consider the mass-popularization of idealized death, mayhem, and destruction, to be relatively fascist, no matter what 'pretty stories' and 'well-described pixelry' its dressed up in .. but i guess it is entertainment, in the same way the colloseums of rome were entertaining too, yeah ..

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[servognome]

you get nothing out of video games.
You get entertainment which is soemthing that is very important to people. You get to move mentally from one place to another, get to explore situations that you otherwise could never experience, you get to think and solve problems, and most importantly people don't like boredom (at least most dont).
"games as entertainment" is only selling you the chance to wander mentally in a realm of little more than smoke and mirrors, nothing less..
Yeah and going to a Britanny Spears concert is listening to horrific sounds while being mezmorized by blinking lights and smoke. Everybody has a different idea of what is entertaining.
as for whether its entertainment, i dunno. i consider the mass-popularization of idealized death, mayhem, and destruction, to be relatively fascist, no matter what 'pretty stories' and 'well-described pixelry' its dressed up in .. but i guess it is entertainment, in the same way the colloseums of rome were entertaining too, yeah ..
There is something about those themes that historically draw people, ultimately we as a society have chosen to "enjoy" those primal interests through virtual methods, movies, games, even books.

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[torpor]

You get entertainment which is soemthing that is very important to people.

yeah, right. people whose lives have been rendered absolutely irrelevant by their de-humanizing culture. no thanks.

There is something about those themes that historically draw people, ultimately we as a society have chosen to "enjoy" those primal interests through virtual methods, movies, games, even books.

whether you have 'chosen' or not, its still a complete and utter waste of time. decadence, consumerican style.

Re:as an old Warcraft2 hack ..

[servognome]

yeah, right. people whose lives have been rendered absolutely irrelevant by their de-humanizing culture. no thanks.
People will find ways to entertain themselves, whether its stories, kicking a ball around, people want to be doing something. People used to stare at stars and make out patterns in them and tell stories about the scorpion or fish they saw.
whether you have 'chosen' or not, its still a complete and utter waste of time. decadence, consumerican style.
You propose people must not have free time to enjoy life, they must always working or sleeping? Sports, music, video games, art, reading (for entertainment), posting on slashdot, are all wastes of time.