MIT Urges Brazilian Government to Use Linux

sebFlyte writes "MIT's Media Lab has written to the Brazillian government (who is looking into a method to get its citizens cheap, high quality PCs) and has urged them to use Linux. From the article: 'Free software is far better on the dimensions of cost, power and quality...if the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from the general population. This robs them of a tremendous source for learning.'"

Comments

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't like MIT is going to recommend BSD is it?

But, of course...

[spankey51]

That's blatently communist... Catching wind of this alleged letter to "Brazil" , Gates had MIT shutdown, found the letter, burned it, then pissed on the ashes.

knowledge source

[mirko]

if the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from the general population. This robs them of a tremendous source for learning

Incredible: it's the best argument I've heard about it. I don't really like the usage of the words "rob" and how emphatical it sounds but it's right.

Anyway, I learnt on an Acorn RiscPC (closed source OS) which was really ergonomical and it was also good so I sugest he should revise his consideration : open source is good but ergonomy also is and I'm afraid that, because progresses still have to be made, they can't argue much on this point.

Anyway I think the World would be better if the Brazilians heard that argument and accepted the principle.

Hooray for the MIT ! :)

Re:knowledge source

[Anonymous Coward]

"if the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from the general population. This robs them of a tremendous source for learning..."

Absolutely right -- for the incredibly tiny percentage of the general computer-using population that is actually going to learn programming. However, the overwhelming majority of computer users AREN'T programmers (just as the majority of people who drive cars aren't car mechanics.)

Re:knowledge source

[melonman]

It sounds like a really bizarre argument to me. If the general population wants to browse source code on a Saturday night (and is this true even where MIT staff live?) they don't need their governments' computers to be running it, they just need to download some source code. What might be of interest to the general population is better access to what is stored using the government's OS, but "open data" is not quite the same thing.

Incidentally, I learned to program on an Acorn too, and still use my RiscPC for certain tasks. 10-character filenames weren't that ergonomic though, and of course Acorn and their largest developer could never agree what look and feel to go for anyway.

Re:knowledge source

[roman_mir]

if the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from the general population. This robs them of a tremendous source for learning - actually it is one of the worst arguments. I don't think that most people who buy TV care to learn how to build one or how to modify the one they have.

The effort aims to sell up to one million computers, with costs partially subsidised by the government, to lower-middle-income Brazilians this year. - now, from this we can come up with a much better argument, and voila, it is in the article: "Free software is far better on the dimensions of cost, power and quality." - I am not sure how much a box would cost to the lower-middle-income Brazilians, but if the cost can be reduced by providing a free OS, then that is a much better argument. Those who care to learn something from the source of an OS will load a Free OS and look at it anyway.

Re:knowledge source

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that great of an argument, actually. Programmers are a narrow subset of the population of any country. Competent, Linux-interested programmers with both the ability and willingness to solve problems are a VERY narrow subset.

And they don't speak Spanish in Brazil, you know. It's Portuguese.

Re:knowledge source

[Eternally optimistic]

No, it is the best argument. Open source gives an opportunity to lear for free, especially when development tools are available free as well. This helps those people who are interested in learning.

Re:knowledge source

[Anonymous Coward]

But it would help all of us if those members of the general public who were interested had easy access to a car's computer diagnostic codes and wholesale access to parts, yes?

Closing access to something always helps the privileged party at the direct expense of society as a whole.

Re:knowledge source

[roman_mir]

You are so silly. People are interested in learning, of-course, but most people are not interested in learning software programming. Most people are interested in being able to run their favorite applications, games etc., that run on MS Windows. Now, people who are actually interested in learning about software can just as easily start with a proprietory system, like most of us did, and then, if they become interested in learning something serious about the OS, they can just as easily download a GNU/Linux distro and learn from it.

Most Free software runs on Windows as well. So anyone can download cygwin, php, apache software, whatever.

So actually, this so called 'best argument' is not an argument.

The argument becomes accessibility, and if MS Windows adds 25$ to the total cost of the purchase, will it be purchased by all who want to get one of those cheap computers?

In this situation GNU/Linux is better for those who are really in the lower class situation.

MS Windows is better for those who can afford the extra cash.

Re:knowledge source

[Anonymous Coward]

anyone waiting for the Brain dead CEO's of the computer industry to decry the MIT people as uneducated idiots who do not know what they are talking about??

I can hear Gates and Co already...

"MIT is not the best place to get advice, it's not like they have experience or knowlege let alone people with advanced degrees.", said CEO of Microsoft S Ballmer...

I cant wait!

Re:knowledge source

[menkhaura]

There is a project to make a "Popular Computer" which would cost R$ 1400,00, or roughly US$ 500,00, using some sort of Windows-wannabe distro.

Re:knowledge source

[morcego]

Lets please remember that learning oportunity is important by itself.

Just because the "overwhelming majority" of people AREN'T sociologist, that doesn't mean the government should not provide Karl Marx books for public labrary. (Note: Using sociology and Marx as an example due to my limited english skills, but the example should hold for any other topic).

This is just expanding the issue one step further. Also, in Brazil, the overwhelming majority of the population doesn't uses/need computers on a daily basis.

The whole idea of this project is to change all that.

Re:knowledge source

[morcego]

It sounds like a really bizarre argument to me. If the general population wants to browse source code on a Saturday night (and is this true even where MIT staff live?) they don't need their governments' computers to be running it, they just need to download some source code.

Lets just remember that computers are VERY expensive in Brazil, and for the overwhelming majority of the population, without these government computers, they won't have access to computers AT ALL.

I also see a lot of people saying "they can just download the free OS". Well, guess what ? Internet is NOT that common here either, at least for the part of the population that is the target of this "cheap computer" initiative.

No one is saying this is the best idea for USA. They are saying this is the best idea for Brazil. So, please consider that Brazil IS NOT USA.

Re:knowledge source

[Eternally optimistic]

Microsoft is worse for everybody - why should I have to pay them for their development tools, when there are free tools available that are as good and better ? With Microsoft, I am limited to tools they decide are in their business interest to provide. With OSS, get things from the academic community. Those are minorities, sure, but they are the minorities that make all the stuff you take for granted. And if the learning tools are freely and readily available, these minorties grow larger. That is why developed countries have public school systems and libraries.

Re:knowledge source

[Anonymous Coward]

/tractor truck pull advertising voice:

Yes! *you too* can write and contribute code to teach others how to compete directly with you. Train your successors (whoever they might be)! Help them get your job! /voice off

Odds are that they'll be living somewhere where the cost of living is a lot lower and can do your job at a small fraction of what you charge.

What a deal.

Re:knowledge source

[Eternally optimistic]

These tools you list exist in spite of Microsoft, or to compete with them. What MS software would you want to run ? And why do you start counting people once they have achieved "middle class" status ?

Re:knowledge source

[Zemran]

[ majority of computer users AREN'T programmers ]

I think that the idea is that Brazil is a developing country and that in the future they may want to develop some software to suit their needs. In the long term Linux is a cost saving even if in the short term the kids do not want it because there are not enough games. Maybe if they take the plunge the Brazilian kids could be the Linux games developers of the future given that they could not hope to get into the Windows games development arena as the investment required would be prohibative. The whole of the 2nd world is realising that Windows does not address their needs and the 3rd world does not care because they will just copy anything they want.

Re:knowledge source

[roman_mir]

Once again, you are quite silly. In spite of MS? That's just silly. Not in spite of MS, but because it is the dominant desktop platform. It is the platform to be on if you want to reach a mass-audience. What MS software would I want to run? Office. There are thousands of companies who write specifically for the MS platform, do not count them out. It is not MS, it is all of those thousands of vendors who sell their own software that most people want to run.

I gave you examples of Free development tools that run on MS Windows because you said that you are forced to buy MS software to develop under their platform and I told you what you are doing: spreading the FUD.

And why do you start counting people once they have achieved "middle class" status ? - this sentence makes no sense. Spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically.

What I said was simple: once you are the middle-class, you can afford to pay a little more for the convenience of running software that is run by most people and not the developers (who are in fact a minority.)

Re:knowledge source

[Eternally optimistic]

The computing world exists to people can run Office ?? Are you serious ?

Re:knowledge source

[roman_mir]

I said I like to run Office. What computing world? What people? You are in a serious denial about your FUD spreading though.

I said most desktop software vendors write for MS Windows. Like the webcam I have for example, the digital camera software, extra scanner software, it only runs on MS Windows. That software was NOT written by Microsoft.

Silly.

Re:knowledge source

[Eternally optimistic]

Most computers are embedded, not desktop. Of course the desktop software is the most visible, that is correct. And it's also true that a lot of the software running on Windows was written by companies other than MS, in even MS products often originated by someone they ended up acquering. I don't know why you need personal arguments, ('silly', 'denial', 'FUD') when I disagree on technical and societal issues with you. I don't begrudge the developers of Windows-based software their livelyhood, nor do I want to force users into some less convenient operating system. I just think that the open source approach is more beneficial for society as a whole, and for many individuals as well, without hurting anyone. Saying that Windows is an inferior solution does not make me silly, nor anti-business, nor anti-american.

Re:knowledge source

[roman_mir]

Easy enough:

1. when you say this: No, it is the best argument - I say that this is silly. It is clearly not the best argument. Most people would not get excited about this argument. Most people get excited about the 'free as in beer' argument.
   
2. when you say this: Microsoft is worse for everybody - I say that this is silly, because this is clearly not true. Your statement is false, because I can provide examples where MS is not worse for somebody.
   
3. when you say this: why should I have to pay them for their development tools, when there are free tools available that are as good and better ? With Microsoft, I am limited to tools they decide are in their business interest to provide. - I say this is FUD. You don't have to buy anything from MS if you are a developer working with their OS. You don't have to buy anything from Novel if you work with their OS either.
   
4. when you say this: These tools you list exist in spite of Microsoft, or to compete with them - I say this is silly FUD. The tools exist whether MS exists or not. They are compiled for MS Windows OS not out of spite, but to reach a wide audience. I don't see any tools created out of spite, because spite is not a good engine to drive development.
   
5. when you say this: The computing world exists to people can run Office ?? Are you serious ? - I say this is FUD, you are changing my words into something more convenient for you to accept.
   
6. when you say this: Most computers are embedded, not desktop - I say off-topic.
   
7. when you say this: I don't know why you need personal arguments, ('silly', 'denial', 'FUD') when I disagree on technical and societal issues with you - I say FUD. Your arguments are either false or fake, thus you are not disagreeing with me, you are straight out lying.
   
8. when you say this: I don't begrudge the developers of Windows-based software their livelyhood - I say off-topic. Besides, I am not a MS tech developer. Look at my website, you will see I am writing Free Source software. I am also a contractor writing proprietory systems for banks, insurance, utilities, telcos, mutual-funds and more.
   
9. when you say this: nor do I want to force users into some less convenient operating system. - I say but that is what you are saying should happen. MS Windows is the most convenient OS for normal users so far, everyone, even the Free Software developers are writing for it.
   
10. when you say this: I just think that the open source approach is more beneficial for society as a whole - I say you are biased and do not care for the convenience of the normal users. GNU/Linux, BSD, any Unix is not as convenient for a normal user as MS Windows OS. Even MAC is not as convenient - it is quite proprietory, more expensive, even more closed than Windows and runs less software.
    
11. when you say this: Saying that Windows is an inferior solution does not make me silly, nor anti-business, nor anti-american. - I say off-topic. We are not discussing the merits of OSs from tech point of view, we are discussing what Brazilian government should do to help their people.
    

Re:knowledge source

[Eternally optimistic]

I am not a liar, and I am not silly, I am honest and a very serious person. Possibly we come from a different cultural background, where these sort of statements have different meaning, but I don't care, and I am not going to follow that line.

Back to the start of this thread, what is the best course of action for Brazil, and in particular their government: I believe that technological advancement for Brazil is more important that convenience for the simple computer user. I believe the time-frame to aim for here is the "middle run", something like 5-20 years. And my estimation is that using open source software will advance them more than closed source. I believe without checking that you are producing quality products regardless of platform, I know that plenty of those exist.

Re: knowledge source

[gidds]

I learnt on the Archie's predecessor, the BBC Micro.

And while it wasn't exactly open-source, both the OS and BASIC ROMs were easy enough to disassemble, and at least one book was published with commented disassembly of them. Plus there were some extremely good, very technical manuals covering just about every aspect. With the help of those, I was able to do some pretty neat stuff, including rewriting some parts of the OS.

The Beeb was a very underrated machine. While it was more expensive than plain games machines like the Spectrum, it was incredibly expandable. (Mine ended up connected to a musical keyboard and synth module, doing some sequencing; you could also connect up everything from teletext adapters to co-processors of various kinds.) And the OS, while packed into a single 16KB ROM (with other 16KB ROMS for the disk filing system, BASIC, word processors, and loads of other languages and tools), was extremely well designed for its time. They positively encouraged you to extend its capabilities, providing well-defined points for hooking in your own code and allowing lots of different utilities to interact.

I don't think I've understood any machine since anywhere near as well as I understood the Beeb (and I've spent time on an Archie, a couple of Ataris, and now a Mac). It was incredibly good training ground!

Of course, working from a disassembly is only practical for small quantities of code, preferably where it was written in assembly to start with. I'm not suggesting people try that today! But in some ways, it's a shame they can't...

Re:knowledge source

[sdsichero]

Just wondering if they feel the same way about their intellectual property and research...

Re:knowledge source

[marcosdumay]

Yes, computer are expensive here, and many people can't afford one. But everybody that can afford one of those can also afford downloading a free software from the net. I don't know any official data about the majority of the population, but I belive them have computers just at work.

The maing goal of using FOSS ont this project is to keep the price low, while satisfying the FOSS adepts that are a big part of the government people

I really didn't RTFA, but this MIT professor is just reinforcing the governemnt oppinion that was stablished a long time ago ad only M$ think that will change. Bazilian government started several years ago to make the change to FOSS. Anyway, it is good to reinforce that.

Re:knowledge source

[Nemba]

If you are a middle-class individual, who can afford the box even if it is whatever X dollars more expensive, you are much better off with a Windows box. The chances are you will want to run MS Windows software and if you cannot then what good is the box?

Well, no. The free software is also available for linux, and the majority of the population will not be able to afford commercial windows software, so they might as well save the few bucks in the first place when they buy the computer.

Re:knowledge source

[roman_mir]

agreed. But let the people decide, give them a choice of buying a box preloaded with GNU/Linux or buy a more expensive box with MS Windows on it.

Is there a problem with this idea?

Re:knowledge source

[roman_mir]

Again, you are perverting my words. I did not say you were a silly/dishonest person. I said that your statements were silly and did not correspond to the truth 100%. I am sure that no matter what the cultural backgrounds, we are talking about the same thing here.

Back to the thread: to say that the argument that people can learn from a Free OS is the best argument is, how to say it without offending anyone? Incorrect. When we are talking about the poorer people, a more correct argument would be to talk about the cost of purchace and the total cost of ownership. Obviously MS Windows is more expensive in the beginning. However this does not mean that the total cost of ownership will be better for all cases. Some people may already have software for MS Windows. Some people may own hardware that is only supported for that platform.

I would argue that what MIT is offering will hurt some of the people who the Brazilian government is willing to help.

Let the customer decide whether to buy a less expensive GNU/Linux machine or to buy a more expensive box with MS Windows on it. Don't force your biased decisions onto anyone simply because of your political believes.

Re:knowledge source

[Anonymous Coward]

"No one is saying this is the best idea for USA. They are saying this is the best idea for Brazil. So, please consider that Brazil IS NOT USA."

Give it time... you will be... resistance is futile!

Seriously, don't say that too loudly... gotta go now, before The Ministry of Homeland Security gets me...

Re:knowledge source

[porcupine8]

It sounds like a really bizarre argument to me. If the general population wants to browse source code on a Saturday night (and is this true even where MIT staff live?)

You've obviously never spent any time at MIT.

Re:knowledge source

[roman_mir]

Troll? Well I never!

UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE!!!

You can't handle the truth, ha?

Re:knowledge source

[Bush Pig]

Continuing with the car analogy - it's nice to know that you can, if you want, change the oil and plugs in that shitbox in the drive whose resale value is somewhat less than it would cost to have someone else service it.

Opinion may change...

[Capt James McCarthy]

When M$ 'donates' cash for a new MIT lab. Good move MIT.

Re:Opinion may change...

[Anonymous Coward]

MIT doesn't need Microsoft's dirty money. Some universities are still in it for the good stuff, anyway.

Re:Opinion may change...

[mizhi]

Gates donated money for the new Stata center which CSAIL (Computer Science and AI Laboratory) now calls home. There's even a tower named after Gates.

Care to flail about some more?

Re:Opinion may change...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhh. The good old "for a billion dollars, I bet even you would bend over and say Ahhh!" C'mere baby, sure I might look ugly, leave you with a bad disease, and I smell bad, but look, I have lots of money! Lots n lots n lots! For some of my money, just bend over a little, no, just a little more, and put this on and dance a little. Oh yeah, that's it, give it to me bitch!...... so that's your arguement?

Re:Opinion may change...

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't play in the real world much, do you?

from the tux-at-carnivale dept.

[ziggamon2.0]

The title says it all!

The MIT guys just want a reason to be invited to the carnival!
You go guys!

Maybe there even is a tux-at-carnivale department at MIT...

Re:from the tux-at-carnivale dept.

[Tuffsnake]

tuxes ... penguins ... linux?

hehe but seriously, what power/influence does MIT really have? I mean yeah they are obviously a well respected university but it seems to me like it would be more meaningful if this endorsement were to come from a government agency here or maybe some computer/linux provider who might be able to suggest they go with linux and then be able to work with them to implement it

Re:from the tux-at-carnivale dept.

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that they've been responsible for many of the great advances in software isn't enough? They've done more for computing that a Red Hat or Novell ever will.

Re:from the tux-at-carnivale dept.

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably that desparate MIT lab guy is hoping that he can go to brazil and bang some chicks. Nice move buddy .. lot to see here, come on ~~

Sounds superfluous

[leandrod]

I wonder why, if it is an already estabilished State policy in Brazil.

And no, I didn't RTFineA.

Re:Sounds superfluous

[LiquidCoooled]

They want Orkut all to themselelves.

Linux now includes an Orkut kill switch. But since its Open Source, its a-ok ;)

Re:Sounds superfluous

[Reignking]

I think you are right, but this is a different initiative:

President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva and several ministers may decide as early as this week whether free software or a simplified version of Microsoft's Windows will be installed on computers for a new effort called PC Conectado, or the Connected PC. The effort aims to sell up to one million computers, with costs partially subsidised by the government, to lower-middle-income Brazilians this year.

Re:Sounds superfluous

[coffee-drinking-man]

Even if it is state policy, I don't think it is superfluous to receive support from a respected institution such as a MIT. It is not always that universities approve of developmental programs in the developing world. Kudos for MIT.

Re:Sounds superfluous

[leandrod]

> I don't think it is superfluous to receive support from a respected institution such as a MIT

Support isn't superfluous, urging is.

Re:Sounds superfluous

[Jecel Assumpcao Jr]

I have been keeping track of the "PC Conectado" project as closely as I can, though I haven't heard much lately. The original specification from last year was very strict: 2.4GHz Celeron processor (AMD need not apply?), 128MB of memory, disk drive, CD-ROM drive, keyboard and a 15-inch monitor. The software was supposed to be Linux and a list of some 10 application programs.

What the article was implying is that this might change so a reduced version of Windows could be offered as an alternative. Perhaps there is some relation to AMD's PIC project which uses WinCE?

The real distinguishing feature of the machines sold through this program is that the government will help out each buyer who can prove he is poor with $70 (they have set aside a fund for one million buyers). So it isn't like people can't choose Windows, just that it will cost them an extra $70 beyond whatever Microsoft adds to the bargain.

My own "computer for the poor" project will be hurt just as much as MS by this since though my OS is Free Software it isn't Linux. Not nice at all, but hardly the end of the world.

BTW, 70% of the computers sold down here are the so called "gray boxes". So the largest manufacturer of totally legal machines, Positivo, only made 100K machines in 2004. Getting 1M will require convencing at least several different manufacturers. Actually, these would rather have a tax break since 40% of the price of computers to the end users is taxes (which the "Frankenstein" machines mostly avoid). But the government argued that such a move would help rich people as well and they must make sure that only the poor participate.

Re:Sounds superfluous

[leandrod]

> My own "computer for the poor" project will be hurt just as much as MS by this since though my OS is Free Software it isn't Linux.

But is it POSIX? The government shouldn't be in the business of dictating implementations, but interfaces. Links?

Re:Sounds superfluous

[Jecel Assumpcao Jr]

> But is it POSIX? The government shouldn't be in
> the business of dictating implementations, but
> interfaces. Links?

No POSIX, sorry. In fact, my microprocessor will probably never even have a C compiler for it so this wouldn't make much of a difference anyway. But it is not possible to make a really modern OS if you demand POSIX compatibility - you will just end up with a Unix with a very odd (and irrelevant) kernel or exo-kernel or whatever.

Compatibility with the Internet standard can get you pretty far these days, no matter what your computer looks like on the inside.

My company's link is included in the header of all my posts, right? But though even more outdated, my pages from the 1990s were better organized. Yuck - the main page is trashed :-(

Re:Sounds superfluous

[leandrod]

> my microprocessor will probably never even have a C compiler for it so this wouldn't make much of a difference anyway

While I appreciate a Lisp or Smalltalk based microprocessor should be much more efficient, how would one get the network economical effects? I'd love to see such a system, but even in the US they couldn't push it: Lisp systems and Smalltalk workstations died, at least for now.

> it is not possible to make a really modern OS if you demand POSIX compatibility

I like to think of the Hurd as a bridge to a reborn Lisp system. The other side of the river may be greener, but you need a bridge to the other side, that will carry you there while keeping access to your old shackle this side while you build your mansion at the other one.

In other words, if we can just finish the GNU Hurd, then we can start building a Lisp (or Smalltalk) codebase. First by porting existing Lisp-on-C systems such as GNU Emacs, GNUCash, the GIMP, TeXmacs, perhaps an AutoCAD clone, the Sawfish window manager and whatever else -- take Squeak and whatever else if that's your idea of code Paradise -- then by creating new apps there that will mirror their C equivalents, including file format compatibility with OpenOffice.org and the such; and finally enabling people to get rid of the C personality. Somewhere after we start having Lisp or Smalltalk personality programs (not only Lisp-on-C or Smalltalk-on-C programs) it might be a better economical proposition to have specialised uprocessors. Not before.

But I have a hunch against OO. While it is not hard to be better than C, I still think it lacks functional programming elegance.

Logical Move

[Anonymous Coward]

I know that Linux is used widely throughout the government in Brazil for their work, it seems only logical that they would load Linux on the machines they are distributing throughout their country for the poor.

Re:Logical Move

[michelcultivo]

Also the Brazilian Government has done a Migration Guide to Free Software that is widely used on another public projects here in Brazil.

Re:Logical Move

[danharan]

I know that Linux is used widely throughout the government in Brazil for their work, it seems only logical that they would load Linux on the machines they are distributing throughout their country for the poor.

Supposing their bureaucracy can be as bad as the ones I've experienced, or their HR as idiotic as many when it comes to IT, people had better learn how to use that free software if they want jobs in the administration.

Re:Logical Move

[prdallan]

Not true. Up to the present moment, this has been more talking than action - as most things with this government (yes, I am Brazilian). Check netcraft stats in some government MAIN sites:

Brazilian Presidency: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.pres idencia.gov.br

Brazilian Social Security: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.mpas .gov.br

Brazilian Central Bank: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.bace n.gov.br

Brazilian Ministry of Science and Technology, for "Christ's sake!": http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.mct. gov.br

I'd rather see more action and less propaganda - this government seems excellent in marketing, but really poor in *real* results. (They have been accused of distorting data, among other things, and, in some cities, like São Paulo, even fiscal mismanagement.

But...

[Anonymous Coward]

If they use Linux they will be robbed of something even more valuable... Half Life 2.

Re:But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm I just thought If everyone switched from windows to linux software piracy would all but vanish. (shh don't tell the bsa)

Re:But...

[Brando_Calrisean]

I know you're just kidding, but Half-Life 2 does run on Linux too. :)

Re:But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think this cheap PC will run half-life2?
This machines will be used for internet access and text editing, tasks witch are well served by linux.

What's the big deal?

[turtled]

I don't see why it's a big deal the MIT is contributing to the needs of Brazil. MIT is highly respected and not taken lightly. Good for them for helping out.

Re:What's the big deal?

[coffee-drinking-man]

I agree. It would only seem logical for a science institution to promote better ways of doing things. Universities should also speak out about the need for more generic drugs and for the importance of stem-cell research, for example. And I don't think anybody would condemn them.

UK Gov...

[Zebadias]

Here in the UK the waste of money in the public sector on MS and other software licences is huge! If only we took such a forward thinking approch.

Re:UK Gov...

[Anonymous Coward]

To take a forward thinking approach would require a forward thinking Government. That the current Government only recently decided that provided real food to children in school diners was just too much bother, I don't even see much evidence of right thinking, let alone forward thinking.

The only forward thinking being done by New Labour right now is forward to May 2005. It gets a little hazy for the next four years or so after that.

Re:UK Gov...

[Anonymous Coward]

>>the waste of money in the public sector on MS and other software licences is huge!

Huh?

OS and off-the-shelf software costs are only a tiny fraction of the cost of UK government IT.

Don't blame MS for this. Blame EDS and stupid govt procurement, lax contracts and general public sector bovin stupidity.

Re:UK Gov...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on now there is more waste than on software, just have a look in the door of any pub near an inland revenue office round about 3:30pm.

Re:UK Gov...

[oliverthered]

That's sir Microsoft to you.

Linux is free but not cheap

[littlem]

I found the article very encouraging. I think there's a danger of Linux appearing as something that's a cheap alternative used in the third world because they can't afford "first rate" proprietary software. This is patronizing both to Linux and to third world countries. It's great to see intelligent arguments to choose open source beyond simple cost being made by a government, as in If the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from the general population. This robs them of a tremendous source for learning.

Re:Linux is free but not cheap

[Omnifarious]

If idiots here in the US accept that argument, the third world will begin to have a competitive advantage over us which they will hopefully ruthlessly exploit.

Lack of ability to accept reality generally means economic loss in the long run.

Re:Linux is free but not cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

hi
jftr brazil is one of the richest countries in the world
the problem is the distribution

Re:Linux is free but not cheap

[worldthinker]

While Brazil has lots going for it, its a far cry from rich. The Per Capita GDP is only $7,600 (according to CIA) vs a world average of $8200 and contrasting with that of the USA $37,800 and UK $27,700.

The per capita GDP is the total wealth output of the country divded by the number of people.

What learning?

[Morphix84]

Saying that hiding the source for an Operating System from the general public robs them of learning is like saying keeping Quantum Physics textbooks away from six year olds robs them of learning.

Re:What learning?

[Tenareth]

That was the worst analogy I've ever seen I think.

Re:What learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad you finally realized that./sarcasm But it is more like saying keeping the hood of the car openable is a foolish thing, people might tinker with it.

Re:What learning?

[Chris Hodges]

Saying that hiding the source for an Operating System from the general public robs them of learning is like saying keeping Quantum Physics textbooks away from six year olds robs them of learning.

While that may be true for the vast majority of the population, it's an insult to the minority who will tinker with the code of the OSS they are exposed to, get a taste for it, and go on to develop a home-grown software industry as a result.

Re:What learning?

[Mr. Underbridge]

Saying that hiding the source for an Operating System from the general public robs them of learning is like saying keeping Quantum Physics textbooks away from six year olds robs them of learning.

No kidding. That's always been the least compeeling linux argument for me (and I say this as a user) - it is NOT possible for even a college trained programmer to go in and start playing with even a small OSS project. I'd say less than 100 Brazillians would be benefited from the "openness" angle of linux. It pretty much comes down to cost and an abstract principle that has no impact for them.

Re:What learning?

[nurhussein]

While that may be true for the vast majority of the population, it's an insult to the minority who will tinker with the code of the OSS they are exposed to, get a taste for it, and go on to develop a home-grown software industry as a result.

How very true! Somewhere out there, in Brazil, or anywhere else, is a kid who wants to learn how an OS works, and wants to try his hand at making it better. Who the hell are Megacorps to deny that kid the right to do that, just because "the majority doesn't need to know".

By the way, Marcello Tossati, maintainer of the 2.4 kernel, is from Brazil. He works for the local Brazilian distro called Connectiva. How could any of this have been possible if the world only had a shoddy Microsoft playpen to play in, with the nicest toys only meant for the privileged few employed by Megacorp to write operating systems?

Re:What learning?

[nurhussein]

No kidding. That's always been the least compeeling linux argument for me (and I say this as a user) - it is NOT possible for even a college trained programmer to go in and start playing with even a small OSS project.

Then why was the Brazilian kid Marcelo Tossatti, not even gone to college yet at the time, elected by Linus Torvalds as maintainer of the freakin' LINUX KERNEL (2.4.x)?

The openness doesn't hurt, so if doesn't benefit you, don't whine about it.

Re:What learning?

[00420]

Yes, because there are only as many programmers in the world as there are 6-year-old quantum physicists.

Also, what if some 6-year-old out there was smart enough to learn quantum physics? Would you not be robbing that child of learning by denying textbooks? Just because other children wouldn't benefit from the books doesn't mean that child wouldn't.

Re:What learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because your grandma can't figure out how to use a mouse yet, You souldn't transfer that to a population of dispriviledged people that are eager to learn new skills to they can get a better job and maybe feed themselves and their family properly. And learning how to program with Linux will certainly land those people a better job than learning how to use MS Word. It's really all about motivation when you get down to it.

At the same time that there are millions of unemployed brazilian workers, the industries are in desperate need of trained professionals, and that's why Linux computers for the masses are a Good Thing.

Re:What learning?

[micromoog]

The point no one's making: those 100 (probably more like several thousand - Brazil ain't dumb) people can directly help everyone else. Under closed software, the only real help comes from the vendor, who in this case has a terrible track record.

Re:What learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agreed with that right up to where you started the whole "Think of the Children!®" crap, now I'm having second toughts...

Re:What learning?

[MartinG]

No, its like saying that hiding Quantum Physics textbooks from the general public robs them of learning.

Re:What learning?

[aug24]

Except that computers are a bit more of a real life skill than quantum, and it would be rather more useful for the Brazilian nation if they could better understand the OS they are using and who knows, even write code for it.

Justin.

Re:What learning?

[Eternally optimistic]

Isn't keeping Quantum Physics textbooks from the public against the US constitution ?

Actually, programming is a lot easier than Quantum Physics, six year olds can do it.

Re:What learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

quantum physics books != free either.

Re:What learning?

[suitepotato]

They DO hide quantum physics texts from the public. They put them in mysterious repositories called libraries which most people are afraid to enter because they contain information and other stuff that makes their heads hurt.

Re:What learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

"six year olds can do it."

I know. Several must have worked on these horrible VB apps it has become my job to bug fix and maintain.

Re:What learning?

[Mr. Underbridge]

Then why was the Brazilian kid Marcelo Tossatti, not even gone to college yet at the time, elected by Linus Torvalds as maintainer of the freakin' LINUX KERNEL (2.4.x)?

There's ONE.

Re:What learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a six year old Quantum Physicist, you insensitive clod!

Re:What learning?

[birge]

Man, I knew this poor guy would get lambasted for suggesting that poor Brazilians probably weren't going to spend their time hacking an OS. Come on, you know he's right. Note that the Media Lab didn't say much about it actually being easy to use or allowing people to do certain things. They were more concerned with source access. That's an absurd priority, and it should be obvious. So let's drop the self-righteous indulgence of our own politics and admit the truth:

A) Nobody owes you the inner workings of anything. Does Boeing owe a schematic to everybody who wants one just because 1 out of 1 million of its users might have an interest in self learning about aerospace? Furthermore, would your primary concern when choosing an airplane be open schematics, or its performance as an airplane? Open source has its place, but let's not become simplistic zealots about it.

B) Having the source code is nice, but to weigh that as the primary reason for choosing an OS is pure idealogy. The only important thing is that Brazilians are maximally empowered by the computers, not that the OS chosen fits our political assumptions. Empowered in this case probably means at a user level, not a hacking level. If MacOS X can be shown to be easier to use for their target audience and needs than Linux, the extra money might be worth it. If Linux is the best for the users, then even better.

The guy's original analogy was flawed, yes, but there is enough truth to it that writing him off with smug platitudes about the Future of the Children is really ridiculous.

Listening to the Media Lab's opinion on an accessible OS for lay people is like asking NASA for advice on bicycles. How's that for a bad analogy?

-Jonathan

Re:What learning?

[praedictus]

While that may be true for the vast majority of the population, it's an insult to the minority who will tinker with the code of the OSS they are exposed to, get a taste for it, and go on to develop a home-grown software industry as a result.

Or more probably, given the lack of opportunities start a defacing group like the Crime Boyz, write hacking tools like Senna Spy, or just rob banks like the Mafia do Cartão.

Seriously there are quite a few talented people here in Brasil, and most of them aren't black hats. Any incentive to help lower the costs of digital inclusion will certainly have long term benefits. With the high prices of (legitimate)* commercial software and development packages, especially in light of the low per-capita income, using a free alternative is the obvious choice. Reducing the absurd import duties on computer equipment would probably be another good step.**

*pirate copies are widely available in urban centres for R$5 or so

**aside from grey market importers & Paraguay prices of equipment here are almost double US price (has been getting better lately)

Re:What learning?

[marcosdumay]

Who modded parent insightful?
Please, people, parent is FUNNY. Or do you really think that this MIT professor said bulshit?

Re:What learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are really out of mark here...there is at least 100 Brazilians now contributing to Linux, see for instance Marcelo Tossati.

Re:What learning?

[0racle]

"I'm thinking, y'know, eight-year-old white girl, middle of the ghetto, bunch of monsters, this time of night with quantum physics books? She about to start some shit, Zed. She's about eight years old, those books are WAY too advanced for her. If you ask me, I'd say she's up to something."

First thing I thought of.

Re:What learning?

[Ulric]

Ouch. I was going to write exactly that.

Re:What learning?

[RoLi]

That's just not true. Wide adoption also means wide use in small and medium companies where openness is great (who hasn't hacked up some bash-script to do something? And no, Windows doesn't offer anything comparably documented and usable)

Also of course learning to program is also easier (everything is already installed or on the installation media) while you have to pay big bucks to do programming the Microsoft-way. (Yeah, I know, you can download and install python, perl and most others on Windows, too. But what's the point of running Windows then?)

But forget all the above, if you want the most important advantage of openness is:

With Linux you don't have to be afraid that your single vendor stops providing rebates or the special version.

Re:What learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's not exactly true. People can learn 'even a little bit' about how computers work and it will help them out. At my local auto club, they have courses for people who are 'car phobic' and mechanicaly un-inclined. Even a little knowledge can help these people a lot. The second benefit of having the source open is that anyone can work on it. Now the arguement goes 'if they are computer phobic, they won't want to work on it' and that is completely true. It's true too, that they can *HIRE ANYONE* to modify/work on it. Even if they don't want to touch it, it doesn't mean that they can't hire someone (anyone they wish) to make changes for them. This 'free market' approach to support/development isn't available with non-open, non-free software. Sure, you can beg the company to help you (good luck with that). You can claim you have someone to choke and sue them (best of luck with that one too), or you can hire your own and get it fixed (today, yesterday, last week...). And not have to worry about it anymore.

Other money-saving ideas...

[bigtallmofo]

Several other people have also written Brazil to advise them to use FedEx for their International shipping to save money.

Re:Other money-saving ideas...

[Anonymous Coward]

The irony is...

Our national mail system, here at Brasil, is one of the best in the world. It offers features like shippment tracking even for standart deliveries! And the average delay for the standart shipments is about 5 days.

Companies like Fedex and UPS must find very frustratin to compete with it!

Re:Other money-saving ideas...

[ioudas]

while fedex will save you money on international shipping, local shipping, printing and collating. it wont save you a dime on car insurance.. Thats why we have geico

It seems that even ZDNET doesn't realise...

[oscartheduck]

free software is not the same as Open Source. Maybe it's something to do with their logo, "Where technology means business." Minor point, but still.

Re:It seems that even ZDNET doesn't realise...

[Cardinal Biggles]

free software is not the same as Open Source.

Sigh.

Technically, you're right. In practice, there is no real difference. There have been differences of opinion here and there but there is no software currently under a licence that is Open Source but not Free Software (or vice versa).

So the difference is purely academic and, IMHO, rather counterproductive (people outside the community will see this debate and think we're a bunch of in-fighting ideologues, arguing over minor points and losing sight of our far more important common objectives).

Kind of like the Judean People's Front versus the People's Front of Judea in Life of Brian...

Just what my grandmother was saying

[moronikos]

...and my uncle who uses the net to surf for pr0n.

if the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from the general population. This robs them of a tremendous source for learning.'"

They were saying they wish the source code was available for Windows so they could learn from it. Yeah, right... The general population doesn't give a damn about learning from the source. Propaganda!

Re:Just what my grandmother was saying

[shis-ka-bob]

This is not propoganda. Most of us don't 'give a damn about what 95% of others do for a living'. The fact that 'I don't give a damn about how lawyers use tort law' doesn't mean that this would be a legitimate thing to keep a secret. If one of my children becomes an laywer, or if I get sued, I will suddenly 'give a damn' about free access to that information. Simply knowing that some kinds of information is open is empowering, even if I don't 'give a damn' about the field.

Bravo, but bye-bye funding

[Bozdune]

Talk about antagonizing your big money corporate sponsors, including the guy who built the new building around the corner on Vassar St. Gutsy move, but not a terribly bright one, unless self-immolation is their next plan.

Re:Bravo, but bye-bye funding

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like "not becoming America Jr." is part of their big plan. Good for them.

Re:Bravo, but bye-bye funding

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, MIT gets away with this because everyone KNOWS that they're good & will keep on providing the goods, while also providing heaps of valid criticism. For instance, they were perfectly willing to tell the gummint that their anti-missile system was complete trash. This was promptly ignored, naturally, but they did make as loud of a point as possible.

The fact that MIT produces real things, explains MIT professor Noam Chomsky, is why you actually have much more freedom of speech there than at Harvard. Harvard doesn't have as many real exports, so they need to keep themselves ingratiated by "exporting" what the Powers-that-be want to hear.

Computers for the poor.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, Save the hassle, flamebait, troll what ever.. What will these poor people do with these computers? Why not fix the country, fix the government, fix the future of the people instead of giving them Computers. Hmm lets see, I'm sure linux will help them manage their NON EXISITING bank accounts. Or, I could be looking at this the wrong way, and if i am, fine, correct me.

Re:Computers for the poor.

[derbs]

Brazil government saves money by using OSS. Money saved can be pumped into social problems (although it probably wouldn't be)

Re:Computers for the poor.

[Anonymous Coward]

Other countries do not use computers in the same manner as we do. Think about this. Several computers in a classroom or town hall means that people can have access to say science classes without the expense of building a lab. Nurses (some of the poorer areas do not have doctors easily available) can download latest medical information, or upload questions to doctors in the major cities for help. Farmers can learn more about better agriculture techniques, weather changes, or even prices for their crops.

That is why the "bridging the digital divide" is so important. Personal computers and internet connection is a short cut for these countries to catch up with the rest of the world.

Re:Computers for the poor.

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends on your definition of "poor". And in this case, poor doesn't means "miserable", "starving" an etc. Brasil isn't Biafra, or Ethiope.

For example, by brazilian standarts I'm midlle-class... But by First-World standarts I'm poor, with a U$700/month income.

Mind that the cost of life here is way cheaper than in US or Europe. So the basic stuff is very affordable, like food and clothing.

But computers are expensive, and most families can't afford one for their kids. So the governament is tryng to equal the chances of poor kids that otherwise would't have access to a computer.

Re:Computers for the poor.

[coffee-drinking-man]

This is a fallacy. So we need to wait until the country develops in order to give the population computers? It seems to me to be other way around: we need to give them computers in order for the country to develop. A slashdotter that cannot admit the importance of computers for everything? Very weird indeed.

Re:Computers for the poor.

[rewinn]

What will these poor people do with these computers?

A reasonable question, to which there are many reasonable answers. All you have to do is go see what poor people do when given free access to computers in your local public library.

While there's certainly some porn-watching going on (...and I suppose entertainment is a legit use of computers...) there is also a lot of education going on, on practical subjects like gardening tips, contact information for gov't agencies and job applications.

Although all these things could be done by physically going to the gov't offices or job sites, doing so via the web saves a lot of time, and time = money.

As I see it, computers for the poor isn't really about "computing" ... it's about "communicating". Giving poor people more efficient communication does not solve all problems, but it gives them more time, which gives them more money.

(It might also give people more time and information with which to better run their own lives and keep their government in line, but I suppose the jury is still out on that own.)

Re:Computers for the poor.

[MBGMorden]

A computer by itself is not much use I'll admit (though then again I managed to trudge along for years on a computer without even a modem), but if the government also managed to provide basic ISP services, it would be a major breakthrough.

Email in and of itself is a wonderful thing. It takes virtually no horsepower to run (a 386 can run Linux and Mutt, so whatever cheapo system they put together would at least have this functionality), and it enables global communication.

Web browsing also opens up access to educational sites such as Wikipedia. Suddenly, impoverished people are opened up to a knowledge base that over time can drastically help their quality of life (by informing them of better farming techniques and any another information they might want to learn). I don't think that these even need to be standard PC's. Some low-power cheap processor machine with minimal ram and a Flash ROM chip containing Linux w/ a very basic GUI, Web browser, Word processor and Email client (unless they were to use web-based email) would likely suffice just fine, and could be made for very little (and so long as they manufactured in-country they could crate jobs in the process). The only permanent storage needed (aside from the Flash Rom to hold the OS and apps) would be a floppy drive or some other medium to store files permanently onto.

Re:Computers for the poor.

[Ekevu]

I and my four NON EXISTING bank accounts resent that.

We have computers and we use them a lot. We're one of the five biggest online communities out there.

Windows is too expensive, so 70% of it is pirated, according to some statistics. I believe there is even more.

=ekevu=

Re:Computers for the poor.

[l4m3z0r]

Yeah cus oh man, for poor people education is useless. Instead lets give them handouts, like food and such. You definitely wouldn't want them learning some trade or being exposed to a tool that could possibly help them get a job(or better job).

Hell we shouldn't let poor people go to school or read books because they could be more aptly spending there time toiling in spice mines.

How about you STFU cus you are a troll, this is flamebait and above all stupid(too bad there isnt -1 stupid option in the modding, i would have modded instead of ranting).

Excellent value

[madaxe42]

Don't be so silly - we get excellent value for our IT services - it's a snip, at £48,000,000,000 per year to manage 160,000 government computers - I mean, seriously, that's only £300,00 per computer, per year, which is pretty minimal - and there's no such thing as 'free' software - if there was, microsoft would have told us about it.

Anyway, I'm in charge of government IT purchasing here, and it's just fine, thanks - oh, hang on, gotta go, the kids are playing on my gold plated runway again.

Digital Inclusion

[michelcultivo]

The Brazilian Government is doing this to do the Digital Inclusion that the citizens need, only fews people here in Brazil has access to a computer and Internet connection.
Bill Gates tryed to do a meeting with our president Lula but by the way it don't happened.

Get your degree in international business

[ClosedSource]

Remember when MIT was all about mathematics, science and engineering rather than a international public policy think-tank?

Oh well, there's still Caltech and Harvey Mudd.

Re:Get your degree in international business

[mabu]

Remember when MIT was all about mathematics, science and engineering rather than a international public policy think-tank?

No I don't. MIT has always been influential in areas of policy, especially as it relates to technology, science, linguistics, media, etc. If MIT wasn't a great source of knowledge, nobody would care what they think.

Re:Get your degree in international business

[ClosedSource]

"MIT has always been influential in areas of policy, especially as it relates to technology, science, linguistics, media, etc."

Always? MIT was founded in 1861. Feel free to provide us with examples of MIT's contribution to public policy in the 19th century.

Re:Get your degree in international business

[Mr.Progressive]

What's the point of learning mathematics, science and engineering if you can't use it to improve the world?

Re:Get your degree in international business

[ClosedSource]

Are you suggesting that these disciplines can improve the world solely through pronouncements on public policy?

Re:Get your degree in international business

[Hawkxor]

This is the stupidest response I've ever heard.
Please refer to http://web.mit.edu/GETaLIFEyouIDIOT/www

Re:Get your degree in international business

[ClosedSource]

"This is the stupidest response I've ever heard."

Wow, I wish I attended MIT so I could create such a well-reasoned and logical argument as the one you made above.

Re:Get your degree in international business

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the stupidest response I've ever heard.

Right up until yours, of course.

So you claim all computer users are morons???

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely you jest!

Just because many users don't really want to look at a kernel doesn't mean that the others should not be DENIED the oportunity to learn.

not (just) linux

[jschauma]

The article does not mention anywhere that ``MIT Urges Brazilian Government to Use Linux'',. MIT seems to suggest to use ``Free software''. I wish people would stop equating the two; there are many, many other free software or open source projects that are not linux, and I believe it's harmful to the overall open source community to continue to enforce the notion that Open Source == Linux (and linux only).

Re:not (just) linux

[micromoog]

Linux is definitely the poster child OS (with Firefox now starring as the poster child app). It's easier for the general public to get its mind around a real thing rather than an abstract concept.

That said, the success of Linux will breed success for all FOSS.

Re:not (just) linux

[Anonymous Coward]

It is also a misnomer to equate Free Software = Open Source.

Re:not (just) linux

[GerritHoll]

with Firefox now starring as the poster child app

You forgot OpenOffice.org.

Re:not (just) linux

[Cyno]

I believe it's harmful to the overall open source community to continue to enforce the notion that Open Source == Linux (and linux only).

Similarly I believe it's harmful to the overall open source community to continue to enforce the notion that Open Source == Free Software.

LOL!

[presarioD]

I just received the new product catalog from HP and Windows Media Player Suite is at the "bargain" price of $200.

LOL!!! That gave me a good laugh! Talking about irrelevancy here! Somebody needs to send them xine or mplayer on a 50cent CD with a $1 red ribbon on it. They just do not get it and it will be a while since they do, but it will be too late.

Insulting the intelligence of the population with the FUD campaign won't cut it either!

Go Brazil! Europe and Asia are following suite sooner or later!

The Nigerian model

[AtariAmarok]

"I'm sure linux will help them manage their NON EXISITING bank accounts."

Give them email accounts, and they will quickly fill these bank accounts:

"Dear Sir, Confidential Business Proposal Having consulted with my colleagues and based on the information gathered from the Nigeri^H^HBrazillian Chambers Of Commerce And Industry, I have the privilege to request your assistance to transfer the sum of $47,500,000.00 (forty seven million, five hundred thousand United States dollars) into your accounts. The above sum resulted from an over-invoiced contract, executed, commissioned and paid for about five years (5) ago by a foreign contractor. This action was however intentional and since then the fund has been in a suspense account at The Central Bank Of Nig^H^H^HBrazillian Apex Bank."

Re:over 1 bilion infactdead zombIEs still active?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is "bullow?"

Perhaps you meant to say "look out below."

English, motherfucker! Do you speak it?

Re:But ...

[El_Muerte_TDS]

Maybe, but at least I still have a short-term memory:
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/16/ 1517207&tid=163&tid=1&tid=218

Just for clarification: I was not being serious.

MIT, one step forward again ...

[wagner_bila]

I'm a Brazilian and i always see many things that MIT is one step further than others institutions or governments, that's why i see MIT as a visionary college, from the current present to the near future ... once again, i have to say that i strongly agree with MIT vision and i think it is time to get rid of fear on using Linux, Open Source software, and thinking the user is so dummy to grasp any other OS than Windows ... lower costs will reach more people, which means more users and then more programmers ...

why

[suezz]

why are they considering even putting windows on these boxes - if the government runs linux on a number of their pc's it should be a slam dunk.

maybe corporations are trying to use this as a training opportunity for their employees - if all the corporations run windows and the employees run windows at home then their training costs would be practically zero. but if they run linux then the corporations will have to train them or take their business where the people know windows already.

call me paranoid but this is just a thought. I can't think of another reason why they would even be considering a broken version of windows. the people can learn how to do all kinds of stuff using linux.

Ubuntu is clealy the answer.....

[RazorJ_2000]

Clearly, if they just ordered the Ubuntu disks, then they could get one for each citizen. Crap, please don't /. Ubuntu ordering free disks now.....

Ubuntu Linux or just go here: Ubuntu Shipit

Re:Ubuntu is clealy the answer.....

[tPassive]

OMG, is Ubuntu the new Gentoo? It seems to be everywhere. Help me!

Re:Ubuntu is clealy the answer.....

[SirTalon42]

I never saw so much spam for Gentoo, its rediculous how they can work USE UBUNTU into every single thread imaginable (if only they focused that into development instead of OMFG!!! UBUNTU!!!!!)

Yes, I haven't tried ubuntu. I may try out Kubuntu eventually (I prefer KDE over GNOME) but Fedora Core has worked very nicely for me so far (like having the new release of KDE w/ in 24 hours of it being released).

Fine, you spam worked, I'm going to try out Kubuntu in VMware now... Download will be done in 2 hours...

Stop with the propaganda Droids

[cheezemonkhai]

Could somebody please explain how this:

"MIT's Media Lab has written to the Brazillian
government (who is looking into a method to get
its citizens cheap, high quality PCs) and has
urged them to use Linux."

Was derived from this:

From the article: 'Free software is far better on
the dimensions of cost, power and quality...if
the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from
the general population. This robs them of a
tremendous source for learning.'"

They said free software, not GPL or GNU/Linux

You could run Hurd or BSD.
Why is it that everyone associates Free == Linux.

Is Linux (OS) becoming MS?

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

FTA
Some cabinet members think consumers should have a choice between buying a computer with open source software and paying slightly more for a machine with Microsoft software. They think this approach would make sense to reach consumers who are already familiar with Microsoft software. But free-software advocates within Lula's administration believe Microsoft should be excluded from the program.

I'm all for Linux (OSS), but a bit disturbed when when advocates of any technology try to advocate less choice. Why NOT give the people the option to have MS or OSS? Trying to force "free" or "open" software upon the people doesn't sound open or free to me!

Re:Is Linux (OS) becoming MS?

[node 3]

I'm all for Linux (OSS), but a bit disturbed when when advocates of any technology try to advocate less choice. Why NOT give the people the option to have MS or OSS? Trying to force "free" or "open" software upon the people doesn't sound open or free to me!

I think the basic idea is that the program is intended to help the Brazilian people, and when looked at in that light, proprietary MS software can be seen as a negative for at least three reasons:

1. Money spent on MS software is wealth being sent from Brazil to the US.
2. F/OSS gives the people more freedom.
3. Licenses for MS software increase the cost of the program.

That's not to say there aren't arguments for including Windows as an option, just that it's logical to design a government program such that it encourages a better society.

Re:Is Linux (OS) becoming MS?

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

To the above all I can say is "Choice is never a negetive!!!!". But let me respond to each of your reasons one by one.

1. Money spent for MS software is wealth being sent from Brazil to the US
Welcome to the world economy, this happens! Neither Intel or AMD have plants in Brazil (even if they did most profits would go to US) so what processor would you suggest?

2. F/OSS give the people more freedom.
OK, this is hard to argue since you don't even bother trying to qualify it in anyway, but I'll try (I'll probably end up sounding like a MS shill in the process "sorry"). Maybe the Brazilian people will want to use basic office applications? OK, F/OSS has that (even though users may already be know the worlds most widely used office applications, but they don't need the "freedom" to use that one they MUST use one of ours). Maybe they want to get some basic acounting software? Maybe they can find this without MS OS, but not near the options. Again, they don't need THAT much freedom! Maybe they REALLY want to use Photoshop? Who the HELL do they think they are????? Wanting the freedom to choose what applications they run, don't they realize my version of freedom with F/OSS is just better!!!!

3. Licenses for MS software increase the cost of teh program.
OK, I would say RTFA, but that isn't even required! The snipit I included shows this isn't true. If someone chooses to go with MS, THEY pay for it not the program.

Choice is NEVER a bad thing!!!!! Even if that gives you the choice to choose MS!

Re:Is Linux (OS) becoming MS?

[node 3]

To the above all I can say is "Choice is never a negetive!!!!".

That's retarded. Why can't you choose between a Linux PC, a Windows PC, and a nuclear warhead? Duh. Obviously some choices are negative.

When you have a set of goals for a program, it's rational to limit your choices to those which best serve the goal.

Welcome to the world economy, this happens! Neither Intel or AMD have plants in Brazil (even if they did most profits would go to US) so what processor would you suggest?

Brazil can't chose to keep the processor money at home, but they can choose to not send their OS money to the US.

OK, this is hard to argue since you don't even bother trying to qualify it in anyway

I expect a certain level of intelligence in those I communicate with.

OK, I would say RTFA, but that isn't even required! The snipit I included shows this isn't true. If someone chooses to go with MS, THEY pay for it not the program.

Wrong. Neither snippet you included, nor the article itself, indicates the increased price would cover the cost of adding Windows as an option.

Aside: you quoted me incorrectly, I didn't write, "increase the cost of teh program".

Re:Is Linux (OS) becoming MS?

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

We'll I don't think we will convince each other on this one as both seem to think each other arguments are rediculous. Actually I do see your point about not sending money to US even though I'm from the US so rather like it coming here :-) And I guess we both made assumptions about MS costing the program (or not) as my initial reading MAY not be correct. But neither can you say #3 of your arguments is correct as the article doesn't spell it out in enough detail (but I still think I'm right ;-)

Even though I am unintelligent and a retard (aparently), thanks for taking the time to reply. Slahdot wouldn't be the same with out it ;-)

That said, I still think CHOICE IS GOOD (nucular options not withstanding) ;-)

Ideology trumping pragmatism...again

[mr_majestyk]

"If the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from the general population. This robs them of a tremendous source for learning,"

This sounds overblown. Giving computers to 1 million of the country's poorest citizens will *grant them* a tremendous source for learning, regardless of the operating system that is used. I don't think the ability to hack the source code is going to have an impact on the "learning" for the vast majority of these users.

"[Open] source serves not only as an example of programming ideas and implementations, but also the development community serves as an accessible social learning community of practice."

Huh? What does this sentence even mean? It just looks like a jumble of pleasant-sounding words. I mean, who can argue with "learning", "community", "ideas", and "social"?

Re:Ideology trumping pragmatism...again

[mw13068]

Ideology should trump pragmatism sometimes. Especially at a national government level

Consider this:

While it is true that one may learn a great deal about an automobile which has all of its doors, boot, and bonnet locked, One can learn a great deal _more_ if one has the keys to the automobile.

Free access to source code is the "key" to computer software.

The "vast majority" of the users will not benefit from free access to the source code, but what about the not-insignificant minority? They _could_ benefit immensely, but with proprietary software they would be prevented from doing so.

Granted, I'm a bit biased toward freedom, but having the ability to learn, but then being prevented from doing so, sounds like hell on Earth to me.

MIT OpenCourseWare

[revscat]

Because I am a big fan of it, I would like to take a moment to plug MIT's OpenCourseWare, where you have access to MIT's entire course catalog, including assignments, videos, and other materials. Want to learn Japanese? Go for it. Or perhaps Electromagnetic Fields, Forces, and Motion is more to your liking. Have at thee.

MIT has shown their dedication to an open academic atmosphere and the benefits for the public of easy access to knowledge. Their endorsement of free software here is completely consistent with their previous actions.

Good for them.

Thinking small.

[yoshi_mon]

I hate to sound like RMS but you do realize that when most people say Linux they mean more than just the kernel?

All of the software is open. You can go look at the code for ls or the Gimp or whatever you want. Yes only a few hardcore geeks will care about the internals of kernel code but your missing the point.

With all of the software being open you can always look at what is going on. You can always change whatever you want. You can always verify that your code is free of spyware/trojans/whatever.

Having access to the code is not just one thing it's a lot of things and I don't think you really get it.

Re:Thinking small.

[theManInTheYellowHat]

Perhaps they should be more direct and reference a Linux distribution, like Ubantu, Fedora Core, Knopix, etc...

But it really depends on the audience. Most people equate things quite differently than the /. crowd and you have to first get their attention, only then can you start to educate them.

What are they waiting for...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Has the Bill Gates & Lula meeting in Davos changed something ? As far I knew they're starting the transition to OSS

Are they still going to OSS ? Hope yes, but sure the M$ people are doing whatever they can (read: $$$) to stop this movement.

My country Argentina (neighbour) should follow the same movement, what're we waiting for ? stupid politians...

for the third world...

[Anonymous Coward]

... its better to adopt freestuff from the open source, rather than go for reduced/truncated/obfuscated/discounted version of windows. without sounding anti-MS - competition is good for any business. the world would have been a very different place - but for mozilla/firefox, star/open office, php/apache/mysql, linux, postgres, gnu/hurd....welll the list goes on - but the point is we would've had a bloated windows 2005 (oops we might have one anyways), bloated office application (yeah, worse still - with hardware accelerated helper, including lensflare ;) and other whizbang), well, i still might be speaking in the realm of whats happening - but you get the point - i would be stuck with propreitary shit and pay through the nose for the favours that they extend! thank heavens.

M-i-n-o-r-i-t-y

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is what genius above really means:

"While it may be true for everyone but the .00000001% who actually tinker with it."

When you put it that way, people will say Fsck the minority (unless theyre gay hackers who want to get married, then we all have to care whether we do or not)

tt

IDE = Good

[mabu]

Saying that hiding the source for an Operating System from the general public robs them of learning is like saying keeping Quantum Physics textbooks away from six year olds robs them of learning.

Worst analogy ever, and inaccurate.

I am a successful software engineer. I started my interest in computers primarily on a system called CDC Plato, and later on the TRS-80, both which had the development environment available and integrated into the OS by default, not unlike most Linux installations. The convenience of being able to tinker with software in varying degrees of involvement without having to acquire extra, expensive tools and exponentially larger learning curves made all the difference.

I really feel sorry for kids today trying to learn programming. There are no IDEs conveniently available within Windows by default. At best, one can hope to master the user interface of a particular version of some proprietary software -- all of which is subject to instant obsoletion upon release of a subsequent version.

Re:IDE = Good

[SirTalon42]

I was raised using Windows, and always wanted to learn to program except because there are no development tools in Windows and I didn't know how/where/you-could find them. If I had been using Linux all that time I would of had a huge amount of resources at my disposal and could of started learning years ago (at the very least I would be MUCH farther than I am now, which isn't close to as far as I would like to be).

Re:IDE = Good

[MBGMorden]

I actually started out on a Commodore 128, which had BASIC built-in. When I moved to a Dos/Win3.1 based system, I had QBASIC available, so I was still able to tinker with that. It came as a huge shock when I got my Windows 95 system (it's hard to comprehend how excited I was about Win95 when it came out. It feels terrible now but stepping up from Windows 3.1 it was amazing) and it had no BASIC interpreter. Luckily I was able to connect to a few BBS's and download some rudimentary (freeware) BASIC compilers to tinker with (I didn't get Internet access until '97 so it was a bit of a wait before I was able to really search for good development software).

Strangely enough I was able to get ahold of my first Linux distro (an old copy of Debian distributed on 7 floppies) from a BBS before I had internet. Without the resources of the 'net though I put it away and didn't pick up Linux again until 98-99. That being said, having a free UNIX clone complete with compilers was a God-send whilst working on my CS degree. There are Windows tools like Cygwin and such (and using a University machine over X11 was always an option), but a dedicated Linux box just seemed to tick along a lot better.

Re:IDE = Good

[Anonymous Coward]

ahhh the trs-80 I remember saving stuff on a K7 and dreaming of one day being able to get a floppy drive.

Re:I have a feeling this is

[GatesGhost]

hey, fuck you mod for the -1! it could be.

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

sure, just ask google.com ;)

just a thought

[phyruxus]

>>If the general population wants to browse source code on a Saturday night [...] they don't need their governments' computers to be running it, they just need to download some source code.

Just a thought.. if you're running windows and you download the linux source to ponder, it's purely academic from your standpoint. You can't directly apply what you learn, you can't fiddle and observe results. You might as well be looking at it through a glass wall. But if you already run linux, and you peek and poke at the source, you can observe first hand what results and why.

This isn't so convincing a reason for the individual user, but for the gov't of Brazil, the collective difference in value is probably considerable, if they are thinking about their future IT industry.

Hi Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva!

Re:just a thought

[menkhaura]

It's not only about people being able to learn how an OS works, or how to program, etc. It's also about information security. With an open source system, the government is able to know exactly what is happening, and where its information goes to. Letting your most critical information be managed by some proprietary system, where you cannot know for sure exactly what is happening behind the scenes, where your data is being sent to, is not intelligent. Not for the US, the home country for most of these proprietary systems makers, and definitely not for other countries, to which these enterprises have no reason to be loyal.

Re:just a thought

[melonman]

But for 99.99% of computer users, it's academic whatever the OS. I've been running a Linux cybercafe for 3.5 years, and in that time I reckon we've had maybe 3 people through the door who might have been able to fiddle with our OS without having to reinstall afterwards (if I had let them). Indeed, if we're talking about kernel-level fiddling, what percentage of /.ers routinely take their patches to bits to see how they work?

If I hack a piece of proprietary code, assuming I have the means to do so, I invalidate my warranty and might get sued. If I hack a piece of OSS, I won't get sued, but I probably still invalidate the equivalent of my warranty - it's usually called "forking".

A real example, admittedly a long way from kernels. One of our customers was a long-time user of a proprietary forum package, written in Perl. When we took over hosting his site, we had a look at the code, and found some enormous security problems, which we fixed, which of course meant that we then couldn't run the usual upgrade procedures. Said customer has now moved his site over to phpBB. We found one or two problems with that, fixed them, and, hey presto, we have identical issues as soon as we want to install a "mod" or any of the official patches. The only difference is that we're legally stuffed rather than illegally stuffed :) (Much as it pains me to say this, phpBB is a much better bit of code than the perl thing they had before, and support is far better, so we've won on the exchange, but if you want off-the-shelf fixes you're still better off not touching the code yourself).

Re:just a thought

[CCW]

Why would you not push your security fixes back to the original maintainer of phpBB?

If you want off-the-shelf fixes, and need to fix critical stuff now, your best strategy is to
A) make the fix
B) push the fix upstream so it is included in future versions (this may involve negotiation or rework on the patch, but it is cheaper and easier than maintaining and testing a private fork)

This is the whole point of why GPL code is better quality in the long run than commercial code - it is in everybodys best interest to get their patches into the main fork. Hoarding private patches becomes expensive.

Re:just a thought

[v01d]

Why would you not push your security fixes back to the original maintainer of phpBB?

I have no experience with phpBB. In general there is no way to push your changes into an open source project, the only option is to ask the project to pull your changes. Open Source allows you to modify your copy of the source, but does precious little to get your changes accepted.

I've had better luck getting fixes into HP-UX than Linux, and no I don't work for HP.

Re:just a thought

[schon]

If your fixes are actually useful, then they will be accepted.

If an update comes out that already has a version of your fix, then you have no problem updating, because your fix becomes unecessary.

Re:just a thought

[v01d]

If your fixes are actually useful, then they will be accepted.

You don't actually believe that do you?

nah, nevermind!

[protomala]

This thing probally won't come out of the paper as the last try. Instead of doing all of this yad-yada (bla-bla-bla), government should work to lower taxes and raise salaries, so people could acctually buy a computer by themselves! I worked hard and have a nice duron 1.6, it's not a big thing and it came throught Paraguay (this mean, no taxes) as most people here do, because they can't afford a regular pc sold in shops that is 3 times more expensive.

WTF?

[ArcSecond]

What idiot modded this up as "insightful"?

I would like to point out, that until you first sat down at a computer, you were a member of the general public. Dickhead.

Not so

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just the point of the iceberg. Other countries' gov'ts are like that too. Thing is, if you changed everything from microsoft OS & apps to linux, then you need to pretty much retrain everybody - not just IT dept, which may need be replaced again, and just firing your IT dept like that for you suddenly decided to change OS wouldn't go over well. Not to mention, all our finance/HR/GIS/... (and build in-house) apps all run on windows. We'd have to buy some Oracle licenses to replace current DBs too (MS SQL/Oracle on windows) - don't even try to say "just use MySQL". Add the lack of things like exchange server/Active Direcoty capabilities and such things, it juts adds up realy quickly. Licenses might not be accounting for so much then, but cost overall would more than double.

If you're going to attempt that, you just might as well try to flush the whole govt down the drain and put a new one in the next day.

Re:Not so

[Bush Pig]

> ... flush the whole govt down the drain and put a new one in the next day.

That sounds like a good start.

to give but not to teach

[Anonymous Coward]

one of the greatest flaws in brazil 'digital integration' plan is that we are offering low cost pcs with linux, but not teaching people how to use it. people use it for a while, dislike it and install a pirate copy of windows on it.

before 'selling' linux, it must be promoted, so people get used to it and use it. if teaching how to put a computer in good use perhaps there wouldn't be so much assholes in orkut

alas... those makes me ashame of being under the same flag

To Clarify

[Morphix84]

I'm not trying to say that Linux, or some kind of OSS solution is not appropriate, but you're talking about costs here, and the benefit that the handful of individuals who will be able to decipher the kernel, which they can download for free anyway given any OS solution, isn't the most important factor in this decision. It's like saying we should clean up the environment so that we don't have to look at dead fish washing up on shore.. Yes, that's true, and it would be nice to do that, but there's more important factors as to why we should clean up the environment.

actually...

[SpongeBobLinuxPants]

When you dig down into the story a little more you can find the truth: Some geek at MIT used "so, you ever hear of linux?" as a pick-up line on super model Giselle.... which translates into a /. headline of MIT Urges Brazilian Government to Use Linux.

Maybe I am wishing here....

[rdavidson3]

but maybe in the near future there will be a headline:

MIT Urges World Governments to Use Linux

Schools

[gilesjuk]

But schools are locked into Microsoft. I would sooner kids used Linux and the like, would give them a better start in IT than using the monoculture.

Re:Schools

[indifferent children]

I support the monoculture...the Linux monoculture. Having the same OS on your: PDA, desktop, servers, mainframes, and supercomputers means massive savings in support, development, training, etc.

There will be some diversity between distros in Linux (exactly as much diversity as the most dissatisfied developer desires), but the push for a Linux Standard Base is a move toward monoculture inside the Linux community (for the benefits that I stated above).

The harm isn't from the monoculture, it's from the monopoly. And let's face it, how many OSes do you think Starfleet wants to maintain?

And even if they don't choose OSS...

[matvei]

All those people "robbed of learning" can still download the sources themselves. It's not like it's a choice between shipping each brazilian citizen a CD full of sources and blocking them access to OSS projects' websites.

A self-sustaining community

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Open source software such as Linux, particularly outside the US, is really coming into its own. I had a bit of an epiphany recently that I'd like to share with you. For the longest time we've been obsessing about Linux on the desktop, and watching things like Google Zeitgeist to try to figure out what our market share is and when it's going to finally take that sharp upturn that signals the beginning of the end of the Microsoft monopoly.

But what has happened in the meantime? As Linux users, we find ourselves missing things from the ball-and-chains world less and less. I, for one, haven't needed to use proprietary software for anything in a few years now. What does this mean? It means that the Linux and open source world is now completely self-sustaining. Whether or not we have numbers that compare to Apple's and Microsoft's, we still have numbers big enough that we're here to stay, and there will probably always be enough new, good software to keep us going now. That's a comforting thing to know. (But I still think it'll get bigger.)

because

[SmallFurryCreature]

The hurd is vaporware that puts even Duke Nukem Forever to shame and BSD is dead you fanboys insist on whipping its rotting carcass.

Face it, despite apache and firefox/mozilla, linux IS THE face for open source. Richard M Stallman did a great thing with the gnu and it was used long before linus torvald started his work but it is Linux that gave it its growning glory.

So just swallow your pride, bow down to the penguin and get at the back of the parade. If your nice you may carry a small Hurd or BSD sign.

Just like Bill Gates true genious was in business not software Linus true genious is not in coding but in somehow making his project likable enough to get into the mainstream, something BSD has totally and utterly failed for how many decades now?

Indeed

[hey!]

Not when there's Multics. You could probably emulate the Multics hardware on a pic these days.

I mean, if you need proof the Multics is the way to go, consider this: Multics is the only operating system in which the path separator makes sense. The file C in the subdirectory B of directory A is called "A>B>C", not "A/B/C", nor yet "A\B\C".

Not only does thie capture the intuitive "whole is greater than the parts" idea, it also frees up "/" for use in file names (e.g. "January/Feburary_Report.txt") and "\" for the use of non printing characters (e.g. "This_Is_A_Weird_Filename\007!").

Re:Indeed

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

So what do you do if you need to put > in a filename? (granted, it's not likely to come up often)

Better exmaple

[hey!]

I thought of a better example for the use of \ to indicate nonprinting characters:

"MyFavoriteMicrosoftieIsGordon\007"

What horrible English

[adrianbaugh]

'Free software is far better on the dimensions of cost, power and quality.'

But it clearly isn't there yet in terms of grammar checkers :-)

Re:What horrible English

[porky_pig_jr]

they speak portugese in Brasil, you dolt.

Re:What horrible English

[adrianbaugh]

But that was presumably written by someone at MIT where, as far as I know, they speak English. Well, American English at any rate, which I suppose is similar to the real thing.

Re:Bravo, but bye-bye funding - No way

[Anonymous Coward]

No way. As if MIT really cares one whit about Microsoft, or should. MIT will be around loooong after Microsoft is an interesting bit of history, kind of like the Railroad Trusts.

Princeton University, e.g., let's see, precedes the founding of the U.S.

There's just something about knowledge for its own sake.

Still a Source of Learning

[ClubStew]

From the article: 'Free software is far better on the dimensions of cost, power and quality...if the source code is proprietary, it is hidden from the general population. This robs them of a tremendous source for learning.'"

BS! I learned everything about Windows programming from a very young age by reading the documentation and examining the headers in the Platform SDK and didn't need to look at the source and still produce quality components. The documentation coming from Microsoft is far better than what I typically found for *nix.

How many devs actually look through all the QT source when developing KDE apps or the Qtk source for GNOME? Documentation exists for a reason and if you can't understand that then how much better will the actual source be?

Microsoft is running a company and should not be expected to open everything up just because people want in. My question to the /. community is why - if you hate "M$" so much - do you want to see the source?

Re:Still a Source of Learning

[Anonymous Coward]

This really should be rated flame bait. I will try and respond in a less flaming style.

How much added cost was the Windows programming environment? The GNU tool chain is free. You say you got a lot out of learning the Windows SDK. Did you learn anything about how to code an operating system or a browser or a compiler or a relational data base? By definition you can get source for all F/OSS projects and see how they work. Plus you can get the Linux/GNU SKD as well.

If you think that learning an SKD means that you don't have to learn anything else then you have set your sights very low. I would argue that you have been brainwashed into thinking like a serf. Microsoft has mentally boxed you in and you accept their walls as a fact of nature. For you own sake re-examine you position and realize that the programming world is bigger, freer and more fun the the Microsoft dominated veal pen that you currently inhabit.

Re:Ideology trumping pragmatism...again -- Parse

[Anonymous Coward]

You complain this has no meaning: "[Open] source serves not only as an example of programming ideas and implementations, but also the development community serves as an accessible social learning community of practice."

This ain't that hard to parse. I"m not familiar with the jargon, but I can make it out:

- Open source serves as an example of programming ideas and implementations.

Are you arguing with that? You did ("who can argue with... ideas...?")

- The open-source development community is:

1. accessible. Do I need to explain this?

2. a "social learning community of practice" -
Obviously, this is just jargon in the social-science field. But it's not that hard to parse:

a "community of practice" - okay, a bunch of people who know how to do something,

and also "a social learning community" - a bunch of people who are willing to teach other people, ie, a group which if you join in they'll teach you what you need to know.

These are just terms of art. Get over it.

As for your first complaint, clearly, it's the subset who *will* learn something from open source, given the opportunity, that is primarily being protected and promoted here, and secondarily who will then be able to contribute more to society (e.g. invigorating Brazil's own software expertise). It's about freedom to learn.

Conclusion: it's your own bias that yielded your judgments. Ideology trumps, indeed.

Here in Argentina...

[cachimaster]

Almost all of the supermarket and consumer stores sell pc clones with linux in them. Adding windows would double the price. They are using Xandros or Mandrake.

Force Feeding Freedome?

[roman_mir]

Force Feeding Fredome is just as stupid as Force Feeding Democracy to the countries that did not get to that evolutionary step yet.

Re:As an American, the recommendation is disturbin

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Moderator, how about addressing and responding to the points instead of just modding it down because you don't agree with the content?

We must do in ?

[jbn-o]

There is no need to order the sequence of social advances. Free software won't fix a lot of problems, but that's okay. We can all do multiple things simultaneously, and giving people the freedoms of free software is one social advance more people need.

Brazil and Free Software

[lcrypt]

In the last couple of years, Brazilian government(left wing) has invested a lot of money in the transition to free software. There are the Telecentros (places where low budget population use computers and internet) are all using Free Software, supported by the Federal and/or Regional Government. Some parts of the Federal Government, as well as some parts of the Regional Governmnet are fully converted. In the University I study Universidade de Brasília(UnB) most of the computers are using Debian/Linux. But unfortunally there are some politicians (there are rumors) that accept money from Microsoft to defend their products. This fight might take a while to end, but I believe Free Software is winning.

MOD PARENT UP

[kusanagi374]

Couldn't have said it better!

free software?

[Anonymous Coward]

software tends to be free in the third world regardless...

Insightful???

[Wooky_linuxer]

Oh please. Less than 100 braziLLians (sic) would benefit from the openness angle of Linux? Conectiva(ops, Mandrake now I guess) alone has probably more employees than that. WindowMaker was developed by a brazilian, like GoboLinux and the LUA scripting language. Sorry guys, you may be not happy to hear, but most of the 170M brazilians do not live in the Amazon Rainforest.

And BTW, Marcelo Tosatti does not work for Conectiva anymore. He is working at Cyclades.

http://www.cyclades.com/pressroom/1085486400

Windows GPL

[davekebab]

You can go and buy Tiger, Win2003 server and XP fully updated for 3 bucks in most places around my part of Brazil.

Linux actually kicks in where M$ has tracked down ever smaller business to squeeze the lucre out of them. Windows continues to be free for most living beyond the reach of the dollar economy.

A Brazilian gov't ministry will be paying around 4 minimum monthly wages (R$600) for an M$ Office license - the equivalent of US$5000 !!!!!!!!!!!

Time to get real with software pricing.

DK