New Computer Powered By PoE

BlakeCaldwell writes "BBC News is reporting about a new PC that's powered via a network cable rather than through a wall socket. The computer only requires 12 watts, lower than the upper limit of 15.4 watts that power over ethernet (PoE) can supply. FTA: 'PoE could end up being a universal power supply system as the cables and connectors for it are the same all over the world. By contrast power sockets and plugs differ by country.'"

Comments

Almost Brilliant

[AKAImBatman]

I was thinking that this had to be one of the most brilliant ideas ever, right up until I realized that users are moving toward WIFI for connectivity. If this had srrived two to three years ago, we might all be using it now. But at this juncture? Likely to be ignored. :-/

Re:Almost Brilliant

[The New Andy]

Well, power over WiFi never really took off with people discovering that mother nature had blessed them with an internal receiver.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[terraformer]

I agree totally, but with one caveat. I work in energy efficiency and specifically that of computers. Business and Enterprise continue to use 10baseT and show no signs of changing that for their desktops (not saying they are not using WiFi...) and a business with 10K pcs spends hundreds of thousands to as much as a million dollars on energy a year for PCs (including monitor). What this eliminates is a power supply per pc and the attendant overhead. Consolidating the power supplies groups of computers (power supplies/transformers have efficiency issues depending on load). Also, this forces them to build a desktop with the usage profile of a highly efficient laptop to get under the 15.4 watt limit. The cost savings of using this technology could be very attractive to business. The WiFi concern is one in home and small business networks primarily.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[cidco]

POE wasnt really designed for everyday use, it was designed for manufacturers to have an easy way to power small devices on their control network. Seeing as many control networks are now going to ethernet rather than serial communcattions (DH+, Modbus+, etc). This allows them to remove a lot of the extra cabling from their orginal networks.

Also POE is used in a lot of place s to power the wireless APs for WiFi.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[RealProgrammer]

I work for a public university. The people who are accountable for the equipment budget and the people who pay the light bill never talk.

I recommend flat panel monitors to people based on aesthetics and reliability. Power consumption (30-40 watts for an LCD, 150 for a CRT) is a non-issue with users, since the power bill is paid by a central campus entity and doesn't show up on our departmental budgets at all.

Actually, I don't know who pays the power bill. Maybe nobody!

Re:Almost Brilliant

[mrm677]

I work for a public university. The people who are accountable for the equipment budget and the people who pay the light bill never talk.

As a student, I worked at several of the computer labs at a large university (40,000 students). One late night when I was closing down, I thought to myself how silly it was to keep the CRT monitors powered on. This was before things automatically shut-off. So I went around to about 200 computers and shut-off the monitors. The next day I got in trouble by my manager...they didn't like my idea at all and didn't care about the heat or electricity savings. Apparently going around to turn them back on in the morning was too much work! I figure for about 6 years (before the advent of auto-shutoff CRTs and LCDs), this university ran > 1000 CRTs 24/7. Anybody care to guestimate how much electricity they could have saved over this time period?

Re:Almost Brilliant

[terraformer]

This is a common problem (called a split incentive) and why we end up approaching the energy manager and IT at the same time. Anyone can contact me through the website attached to my /. UID and I can get good info to help you get everyone on the same page.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[AKAImBatman]

I'm kind of going back and forth on this in my head. On one hand, reducing power to 12 watts sounds like a good thing. On another hand, a modern Pentium processor chews through way more than that on a medium load. Would the reduction is system performance be acceptable to the cost savings? Well, let's do some calcs. Let's assume that a modern PC with a CRT takes a constant 100 watts. (On the high side, I know.) Let's figure that out across 30 days:

30 * 24 * 100 / 1000 = 72 KWh/month

At the rates in California (some of the highest in the nation) we get a cost per computer at:

72 * $0.096 = $6.912

For 10,000 computers, that comes to:

10,000 * $6.912 = $69,120

Now let's say that we use PoE and get the computers down to 12 watts. Some of the energy is lost in transmission, so we'll say that we consume 20 watts per computer:

30 * 24 * 20 / 1000 = 14.4 KWh/month
14.4 * $0.096 = $1.382 per computer
10,000 * $1.382 = $13,820

Those look like pretty nice savings, but are they actually sufficient to warrant the switch over to a slower machine? In a company with 10,000 PCs, the difference works out to the cost of a few employess on staff. Not pocket change, but not massive savings either. But what if you just go around and replace all the CRTs with LCDs? Well, then the gap probably won't look as interesting, and employers are doubtful to worry about the savings of further power reductions.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[Monoman]

rust me it will be adapted for WiFi. These things have a way of working themselves out. ;-)

Re:Almost Brilliant

[CohibaVancouver]

It's great until someone realizes they plugged the power cable into their ethernet port, frying their system.

Reminds me of that scene in one of the Star Wars movies where R2 mistakes a power port for a data port, plugs in, and gets a nasty shock.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[HeadDown]

Except that at the R&D where I work, WIFI is banned because of the security risks. I also see no reason to use wifi at home except for the laptop; wires are more secure and faster.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[wed128]

i think PoE uses the same port with a special ethernet card. that's the whole idea, one cable.

Didn't RTFA, by the way

Re:Almost Brilliant

[RealProgrammer]

this university ran > 1000 CRTs 24/7. Anybody care to guestimate how much electricity they could have saved over this time period?

(Using conservative figures)
At 100 watts, a monitor consumes 1200 watts in 12 hours or (at 7 cents per kWh) about $.084 in electricity every night. Call it $25/year.

1000 monitors waste $25,000/year.

Depending on your climate, heat dissipation is really hard to figure, since in the winter all those monitors made the buildings easier to heat in the winter, harder to cool in the summer. Not very efficient, but it's there.

I don't know what effect power cycling a monitor has on its longevity, but I bet doing it once a day for twelve hours would increase useful life, not decrease it on average.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[AKAImBatman]

If you use WIFI - you are probably on batteries

Not necessarily. As it stands today, power outlets are plentiful in homes, offices, conference centers, and other public locations. Ethernet ports are not so plentiful. So if I have WIFI at home, am I going to bother stretching my CAT5 cable across the living room so I can work on the couch? No! I'm going to plug into the wall next to the couch, and use WIFI for connectivity.

Same thing with conference centers and expositions. Why woould anyone install new ethernet equipment when the floor already has power plugs everywhere? It's much easier just to set up WIFI for the various kiosks.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[terraformer]

Those look like pretty nice savings, but are they actually sufficient to warrant the switch over to a slower machine?

Welcome to my hell...
All jokes aside, it can be if your users don't need that sort of horsepower. And many do not, especially if IT has a very structured system and are conservative about upgrades, you could easily go three years with no image changes. This can make sense if the org is not obsessed with speed and performace which, in my opinion, many skew, needlessly so, that direction.

The numbers are also more impressive within the framework of a larger energy efficiency/cost cutting framework.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[TCM]

Let's assume that a modern PC with a CRT takes a constant 100 watts. (On the high side, I know.)

You've got to be kidding. 100W is on the low side for a modern PC without a CRT. A PC with a P4 (Northwood core) and a GF3TI200 consumes about 90W when idle. That's without monitor and without a "modern" graphics card which requires extra power.

When playing a 3D shooter that system draws around 150W, still without monitor.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[KiloByte]

WIFI:

• great security (and I don't mean your network, I mean the network of Joe MCSE)
• awesome bandwidth
• no interference problems, ever

The only advantage of WIFI is the lack of cabling. Unless you're talking about laptops, this is of little importance in an office as you need _some_ cables. At least until you get that Tesla rig working...

Re:Almost Brilliant

[TrueKonrads]

WiFI is not a replacement for conventional connectivity. It has quite a lot of negative issues, such as :

* (my favourite, since you're not wearing tinfoil hats) additional radio emissions which are not very healthy, especially if some wise guy decides to put a more powerfull antenna

* Poor security. To this day you can't beat security of conventional wiring (for all you TEMPEST freaks, one can always use UTP)

* Quick bandwidth saturation. At the moment one office collectivley can only do ~100 MBit/s, which is poor, as opposed to 100Mbit for each POP

etc... POE is a very nice thing, especially for plugging a lot of appliances and wireless isn't a "threat" to it. Really different applications and ballparks.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[LWATCDR]

"Those look like pretty nice savings, but are they actually sufficient to warrant the switch over to a slower machine?"

The better question is do most people need these faster machines? If you are doing data entry and light spreadsheet work do you need more than even a P3? I will be honest I just setup a PIII with a low end Nvidia card and 384 megs of ram running Ubuntu. It is VERY USEFUL for everything but playing high end games. Video playback is and smooth and surfing is fast. For an average user a P4 is really heading into overkill.
You also have other costs like maintaining UPSs for all those computers. The cost of running power lines vs POE cables. This method will let you go for a centralized USP set up. The down side is if a power injector dies you loose a bunch of Systems with it.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[Smidge204]

Using PoE doesn't "magically" reduce the power usage to 12 watts. PoE can only provide 12 watts. You can't do a whole lot with 12 watts.

CD/DVD burners are right out, especially rewritable media. Even for a laptop style device you're going to use close to 15 watts, and that leaves no room for anything else. You'll also be stuck with low power flash memory for data storage, which is slow and expensive.

And unless you plan to provide seperate power, you're stuck with a roughly 6.5" TFT touch screen and nothing else. If you're providing power for a proper monitor, might as well provide real power for a real PC while you're at it.

This thing is perfectly fine for the semi-embedded, temporary and versitile installation envoronment it was intended for. It is NOT a suitable replacement for a full PC. Might make a nice Carputer, though... at 7/8" thick you could conceivably fit it into a "fat" sun visor with the touchscreen being your input. Unfortunately I can't find any detailed specs (data storage capacity, system RAM, etc) other than it has two USB ports and WinXP embedded preinstalled.
=Smidge=

Re:Almost Brilliant

[AKAImBatman]

Modern computers go into various power saving modes when not in use. As a result, I'm using the 100 watt figure as a baseline average. Peak power usage on today's machines can easily get as high as 200-300 watts (thanks to the "latest and greatest" video cards).

Re:Almost Brilliant

[JeTmAn81]

Naturally, there is only one solution to this....POW! Yes, Power Over Wireless! If only it were possible without turning any human beings in the vicinity into walking baked potatoes...

Re:Almost Brilliant

[AKAImBatman]

Honestly, the best solution for users that don't need that much horsepower is to switch to thin clients. With the thin clients, power consumption is easily under 12 watts per desktop, users can be centrally managed, and desktop horsepower can be upgraded in a single system replacement.

I used to admin a Citrix network, and I have to say that the idea makes a lot of sense. Most of the issues with the setup stemmed from the fact that we were on NT 3.51 and not from the fact that our users were on a shared system. Users *still* ran their little "bouncing sheep" and "frog in a blender" type of programs (not a good thing, but necessary to allow the users to be "happy" with their system), and we saved money on hardware, support costs, and power usage. Can't get much better than that!

Re:Almost Brilliant

[pklong]

Swansea University Computer Science Department used to have a lab of Power Macintoshes. I am lead to believe the lab used to be an Amiga Lab. All the computers in that room were on a timeswitch which switched the power off for that room, I kid you not!

Re:Almost Brilliant

[dAzED1]

what you're saying almost sounds reasonable, except for 2 things:

DC is lost *quickly* in transmission. Why do you think your home circuit is AC, when DC has been around much longer? Lightning - DC, or AC? Static discharge - AC, or DC? All current starts out as DC, gets converted to AC for transmission, then in almost all devices gets converted back to DC (with very few exceptions...light bulbs being one of them). AC transits over much, much longer distances with less loss. PoE is DC. Doing this would cause there to be more loss, since you'd be transmitting lots of DC over long distances of wires. This would use more electricity in your standard gigantic corporate office with thousands of pc's - not less. If you put AC in PoE, you'll lose your data - as a data line, it will then be worthless. Too much noise.

2: the wifi concern is not limited to home and small business networks. I work at a small DoD contractor (tiny outfit named Lockheed Martin. 5k at this plant) and we're going to wifi. Everyone is doing the move. It drops all sorts of costs. Darn telco rooms are always just a mess of crap.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[uberdave]

...And how many businesses have ethernet jacks out in their parking lots, or in the businesses next door, across the hall, or on adjacent floors?

In order to plug into a conventional wire, you must have physical access. Oh, and lots of businesses have internal firewalls and other such security on their physical LANS.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[FreakyControl]

I'll second that. I myself am a grad student in mechanical engineering, and I run nearly all of my MATLAB/SIMULINK simulations on a PIII running Windows 2000. In fact, I do do MOST of my work on a PIII. With a little RAM (384MB as well) they work fine.

This discussion reminds me of a conversation that I had with my cousin a while back. She's a secretary, and bought a $2000+ home computer because she wanted something fast, even though she's only doing simple word processing and net surfing.

As good as companies like Dell are, they've done a fantastic job of convincing people that you need the newest and fastest of everything. That anything else is lame, and you're either a social deviant or living in the 1970's if you don't have a P4 EE machine.

Of course, with the world on the downward side of the oil availability slope, I imagine that we will start seeing a shift towards more efficient technology in every aspect of our lives, not just in computers.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[mpe]

One late night when I was closing down, I thought to myself how silly it was to keep the CRT monitors powered on. This was before things automatically shut-off. So I went around to about 200 computers and shut-off the monitors. The next day I got in trouble by my manager...they didn't like my idea at all and didn't care about the heat or electricity savings. Apparently going around to turn them back on in the morning was too much work! I figure for about 6 years (before the advent of auto-shutoff CRTs and LCDs), this university ran > 1000 CRTs 24/7. Anybody care to guestimate how much electricity they could have saved over this time period?

Things arn't that simple. If the building needs heating it could cost you more money... There's also the risk that the frequent power cycling could reduce the life of the monitors. It might cost you more in maintainance and staff time than you save in electricity.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[Husgaard]

If you care about power effiency, please don't forget the power loss in the ethernet cable. The roundtrip DC resistance in the cable can be as high as 20 ohms.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[mpe]

Using PoE doesn't "magically" reduce the power usage to 12 watts. PoE can only provide 12 watts. You can't do a whole lot with 12 watts.

It depends on your application. In plenty of situations 12 watts is a lot of power.

You'll also be stuck with low power flash memory for data storage, which is slow and expensive.

As opposed to using the fast network connection also available on the cable supplying the power :)

Re:Almost Brilliant

[SilicaiMan]

Those look like pretty nice savings, but are they actually sufficient to warrant the switch over to a slower machine?

In the company I work in, we mainly use our desktop machines for email, document viewing/editing and web browsing. Everything else is done by logging on to more powerful linux and Sun servers. At a head count of approximately 3000 people, the power savings start to look favourable.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[Husgaard]

DC is lost *quickly* in transmission.

No, the resistance in the cable is the same, regardless if AC or DC is used.

The reason you think DC is lost more quickly is probably that DC generally is used at lower voltages. With lower voltage and constant power the current is higher, thus causing a higher power loss in the cable.

Why do you think your home circuit is AC, when DC has been around much longer?

Because AC is a lot easier to work with for those who transmit power. To avoid too much power loss in the transmission system the electricity has to be converted to high voltage in the transmission system, and that is a lot easier to do with AC.

All current starts out as DC

I do not know how you do at Lockheed Martin, but at my local power plant the turbines directly generate three-phase AC.

If you put AC in PoE, you'll lose your data - as a data line, it will then be worthless. Too much noise.

As long as the AC frequency is a lot lower than the data signal frequency you can still transmit AC over the data cable without any noise. It is a bit harder, but still possible. But it doesn't make sense to do so, as the equipment connected needs DC.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[poot_rootbeer]

I have yet to hear of any network operations center deploying WiFi instead of traditional cabling. This is not a technology that WOULD have any utility in the typical one-or-two-computer home environment.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[poot_rootbeer]

The cost savings of using this technology could be very attractive to business.

But the cost expenditures of having to install huge AC/DC transformers in the utility rooms and replace each and every desktop computer with a costly new low-wattage model will be very UNattractive to business.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[mpe]

DC is lost *quickly* in transmission.

Actually transmission line losses are dependent on voltage. The power lost is inversely proportional to the square of the voltage.
It is much easier to change the voltage with AC than DC. Even if you could easily step up DC electrolysis effects would rapidly corrode every connection.

All current starts out as DC, gets converted to AC for transmission, then in almost all devices gets converted back to DC

No it starts off as AC. From a generator running at either 3,000 or 3,600 RPM. An AC generator is simpler to build than a DC generator. It's also considerably easier to turn AC into DC than to turn DC into AC. Especially if you want AF AC.

If you put AC in PoE, you'll lose your data - as a data line, it will then be worthless.

Only if your AC is at a frequency which interferes with that being used to send the data. It's perfectly possible send multiple frequencies down the same cable.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[mpe]

...And how many businesses have ethernet jacks out in their parking lots, or in the businesses next door, across the hall, or on adjacent floors?

With a socket the signal only goes to that socket. Once you start dealing with radio waves the signal goes all over the place, as well as possibly not going where you actually want it to go. Then to add to the fun moving objects, including people, can affect where the signal winds up.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[mcbiondi]

IMHO, PoE isn't designed with the desktop in mind.

In terms of reducing the sheer number of cables needed to support a server in a datacenter (redundant power, possibly multiple redundant network cables, redundant fibre channel/scsi), removing the both power cable, and all the sub-floor power runs represent a real dollar amount in savings. When combined with scsi over IP, this could result in servers with only a single (or perhaps dual) network connection, representing still more savings in deployment and maintence costs.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[AKAImBatman]

The article suggests areas like exposition floors where they don't want to run extra wires. The problem is that this seems backwards. On an exposition floor you should have power first, then ethernet second. It makes more sense to wire things with WIFI in environments like that.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[FireFury03]

Swansea University Computer Science Department used to have a lab of Power Macintoshes. I am lead to believe the lab used to be an Amiga Lab. All the computers in that room were on a timeswitch which switched the power off for that room, I kid you not!

We also used to have the Sparc SLC lab - I don't recall them ever powering the machines down and of course you could never power off the monitors separately since the motherboard was built into the screens.

(Still have one of those SLCs in my cupboard after the Computer Society took a bunch of the SLCs off the Uni's hands and then chucked them out a couple of years later.)

Of course they upgraded the whole lab to Solaris x86 and then to Suse where they have nodoubt forgotten to turn on power management anyway. :)

Re:Almost Brilliant

[crabpeople]

" Let's assume that a modern PC with a CRT takes a constant 100 watts. (On the high side, I know.)"

I have a 600 watt power supply. I recently purchased a geforce 6880 and dual opteron 244s. Combined with the other items in the system the machine will not power up. If i start unplugging drives i can get the machine to boot. It does not boot with everything plugged in.

so personally i would say that yes 100watts is on the LOW side. extreme low actually.

xeon machines regularly have 1200-1400 watt power supplies.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[releppes]

Last I knew, Lockheed was going PoE as well. At least for the phone infrastructure in Syracuse.

I never really knew the excitement about PoE. I think PowerLine technology has much more promise. Granted, PowerLine suffers from bandwidth. However, for phone technology, PowerLine would be perfect. Some people argue that PowerLine is bad because the signal won't travel past a transformer. But I think that's a plus! That way you can get the flexibility of wireless with the physical security model of a wired lan. Plus, it'd be far cheaper to deploy a digital phone/PowerLine solution that the whole PoE thing. Ever price a PoE router. Way to expensive. That and as you pointed out, running DC powerlines is just dumb. Looks like Edison will win over Tesla at least in the 21st centry.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[Limax Maximus]

This could be a good time to move back to the mainframe days - PoE is unlikely to provide enough power to power your dual P4 HT machine and you flat panel. How about powering your flat panel and a rather feeble machine allowing you to remote desktop etc to the more powerful shared central servers?

How many people genuinely need the power that modern desktops have except for running windows? I rarely use my P4 2.8GHz to its full even running vmware and fedora bloatware even with fairly serious logging and log handling running on it. For the average user a thin client is ideal which I believe could be made to run well on PoE.

That said - be wary of moving to PoE where some devices still run on none PoE kit. Should you be using HP Procurve 2650s and Cisco 7960 VoIP phones (probably all cisco VoIP phones) with some wiring that isn't reliably labeled and a student happens to decide to move a phone to a none PoE socket you could have a crippled network. Why? Well Cisco VoIP phones short tx and rx when not powered up (correct behaviour, I understand). Procurses bring the port up in full duplex mode if they detect a link (should be half duplex). They then decide it is safe to bring that port up (after spanning tree has done its business) quite happily passing packets back into the interface where they just came from. No matter what configuration options you do on a HP they'll destroy your network in one easy step. Spanning tree doesn't see it as a problem as it is on the same port therefore the downstream device should deal with it.

Anyway, rant over for the time - I'm sure HP TAC will come back to me again saying how it is a Cisco problem. My trusty shorted network lead also causes the same problem on procurves yet no other vendors kit.

15 Watts is enough for anyone just like 640 kilobytes of RAM was...

Re:Almost Brilliant

[LWATCDR]

"I'll second that. I myself am a grad student in mechanical engineering, and I run nearly all of my MATLAB/SIMULINK simulations on a PIII running Windows 2000. In fact, I do do MOST of my work on a PIII. With a little RAM (384MB as well) they work fine."
Yicks.. I would not try running Solid Works on that:) I use that at work and have a big fast machine for that. I also use a pretty big fast machine for software development. P4EEs and Athlon64s are great for some tasks. Even of some home users that are making DVDs and ripping there CDs. The truth is that for most office work they are over kill.
I keep hoping that Linux will free us from the x86 ISA and let us move to more effiecent ISAs like the MIPS, PPC, and Arm/XScale. Look at AMD's alchemy 1200. It would make a great system for the average kid, student, home, or office user. It also burns a tiny fraction of the power and doesn't need fans to cool it.
Would make a nice thin client as well.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[Melkman]

There is an other advantage of WiFi. You don't have to deal with ports. If your 100BaseT switch is full you need to buy an extra switch even for that one extra PC. With wireless you don't have that problem. However since wireless is a shared medium you will see throughput degrade with every PC you add. And since the available spectrum is limited you can't keep adding AP's to reduce cell sizes. Althoug the Avaya AP's we use can reduce transmit power to minimize interference.
But the rule here is if it doesn't move, wire it up. If it moves, use WiFi. And if it doesn't move and is small (AP's, phones, ethernet webcams for security) use PoE. Especially since AP's and webcams tend to be mounted near the ceiling where we do have cat5 but no power.
An other great advantage of PoE is that you can turn off power from devices while at your desk. Want to upgrade the phones ? Just put the new firmware on the TFTP server and reset the power switch. Presto 24 phones upgraded. Is an AP unresponsive ? Just cycle the power to it from your desk (or even from home).

Re:Almost Brilliant

[jmv]

No, that's just a first step. They're working on PoW (Power over Wifi) at the moment :-D

Re:Almost Brilliant

[cagliost]

Ought to use Rod Logic instead.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[shaitand]

The real concern is that the average workstation needs to survive for about 5yrs. P3's will hit their end of life expectancy before that and you will no longer be able to get new replacement parts.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[chochos]

ah but there is a new version in the works, Power over Wifi, or POW! for short (as in the sound of lightning hitting your box).

Re:Almost Brilliant

[Namlak]

No problem once PoTC* gets ratified.



* Power over Tesla Coil

Re:Almost Brilliant

[Doppler00]

At the university I went to, they were smart enough to have the student techs go around and shut off all the computers each night. Sure this caused some inconvience the next morning having to turn the computers back on, but come on... think of the cost savings.

It amazes me sometimes the stupid things people want to do to "help" the environment but then they do stuff like leave their computers on 24/7.

Re:Almost Brilliant

[petermgreen]

yes and no

it depends WHERE you are putting the wireless acess point

if its close enough to an existing socket that the LV flex from the wall wart to the access point then i agree that power over ethernet is pointless

on the other hand if you are installing a wireless access point in a location that has no existing services at all then POE would save you the hassle of getting mains nearby (i dunno about in the US but here in the UK you aren't allowed to put mains and ethernet in the same conduit/trunking comparment and i think many network installers are not qualified electricians).

Whoa...

[TheSpoom]

Was I the only one who saw that as powered by Pieces of Eight? That must be one expensive computer... but at least it recognizes that most people will use it for piracy.

(Damn, I play Puzzle Pirates way too much. And yes, I know the answer to my question was yes.)

Re:Whoa...

[joshdick]

Yarr, ye need to get away from thar magic box and get some sunlight, ye scallywag.

Re:Whoa...

[WidescreenFreak]

but at least it recognizes that most people will use it for piracy.

You get a virtual +1 funny since I don't have any mod points right now. I wonder how many people are actually going to make the connection, though. "Pieces of WHAT? Eight is a number! A piece of eight is a four!"

Re:Whoa...

[Anonymous Coward]

Har, ye are not alone in this conclusion. I also play Puzzle pirates, and was confused at the beginning about how I could pay my computer to work for me. Is it sort of like bribing?

Re:Whoa...

[onetruedabe]

Here I was hoping it was POE, the Perl Object Environment.

But that'd be reinventing the Wheel...

(I slay me!)

Re:Whoa...

[nametaken]

Oh yeah, I totally saw that! woot for YPP!

More interesting towards the end....

[Robert Hayden]

I find it more interesting the idea of a new PoE standard that will provide more power. Of course, those of us that have invested millions in the current PoE "standard" for VoIP and wireless will need to forklift everything.

Quoth the network admin turned electrician:

[Anonymous Coward]

Nevermore, nevermore! I'll get a job at Best Buy before I support you power whores.

Powered by PoE?

[utexaspunk]

I wonder which will work better- The Telltale Heart, or The Raven? Maybe The Cask of Amontillado?

First Plug!

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA, is 35 watts enough to run most laptops? I have a pig of a laptop (Sager 8890) that draws 120 watts.

Re:First Plug!

[AKAImBatman]

is 35 watts enough to run most laptops?

Considering that my iBook uses a 65 watt charger, I'd say that 35 is probably sufficient for anything short of the "Desktop Replacement Laptops" (relly more of a portable desktop). My guess is that the laptop will most often run below 35 watts, then trickle-charge the excess to the battery. If the computer needs extra power in the short term, the battery will provide it.

Re:First Plug!

[Colol]

Your guess seems sound, particularly when you consider it's only recently that Apple standardized on the 65 watt model for all their portables. Prior to that, iBooks and 12-inch PowerBooks shipped with a 45 watt adapter while 15"-and-up PowerBooks had the 65.

Re:First Plug!

[Psykechan]

...and one of the new power hungry Powere Books will run fine on the old 45w adapter. There may not be enough juice to charge the battery but it will work.

Dr Strangelove, is that you?

[Anonymous Coward]

PoE = Peace on Earth. Purity of Essence.

Re:Dr Strangelove, is that you?

[Shelrem]

I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love. Yes, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence.

Re:Dr Strangelove, is that you?

[goneutt]

I wonder if they loaded Mandrake linux on it.

Okay, I know that distro' has changed their name, but I had to scroll down so far to find the Dr Stranglove post it was correct when I started.

Unlikely...

[bodfa]

FTA: 'PoE could end up being a universal power supply system as the cables and connectors for it are the same all over the world. By contrast power sockets and plugs differ by country.'"

This seems to fit somewhere along the lines of IPV6 and enough ip addresses for your toaster to be ip enabled. Yea... No toast today, the network is down.

Re:Unlikely...

[1u3hr]

This "same sockets are used worldwide" argument is such crap. Get a $2 adapter, and a $10 voltage converter if necessary. And laying electric power cable is no harder, probably easier (because the cables aren't so fragile as ethernet). This is at most a solution for special cases, where you for some inexplicable reason have an ethernet drop but not a power one. I can't ever remember seeing this in the real world. In workplaces you have power everywhere, you can easily run some extension cables if you need to. And as many have mentioned, you are severely limited in what hardware you can run on 15 W. It's definitely not a general desktop solution -- when don't you have power at your desk?

Re:Unlikely...

[nametaken]

This seems to fit somewhere along the lines of IPV6 and enough ip addresses for your toaster to be ip enabled. Yea... No toast today, the network is down.

Ah, but the real question is, can my IPv6 enabled toaster use PoE?

Re:Unlikely...

[tcgroat]

The wall end of the cord differs by country, but the equipment end is the same IEC-309 power coupling the world over. With the rising popularity of wide voltage range (100-250Vac, 47-63Hz) power supplies all you need is the local market's cord set. It's not that big a deal any more; just buy the cord locally and you're all set.

More info from Slashdot and POE site ...

[Hulkster]

Slashdot has discussed "Power over Ethernet: IEEE 802.3af" and how the Apple AirPort Base Station supports POE. There also appears to be a website dedicated to Power over Ethernet. Ummmmm ... maybe I could use POE to power my christmas lights ... although I'd need a bit more than 15 Watts! ;-)

Re:More info from Slashdot and POE site ...

[GraemeDonaldson]

Yeah, like anyone's ever gonna fall for that one again. ;-)

Re:More info from Slashdot and POE site ...

[PetoskeyGuy]

I've always used this method for powering computers over ethernet. It even works for those high end desktops. Plus I don't have tons of cables under my desk.

Give it a try.

Re:More info from Slashdot and POE site ...

[CharonIDRONES]

Am I the only one who gets sick of every post of the parent's about his goddamn Christmas lights getting modded +5? I mean, all I ever see are shameless plugs, but oh well, what'll ya' do?

-Brandon

Old stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

I already have this: http://internet.ls-la.net/pictures/images/Computer /Etherkiller.jpg
to power up computer that "friends" give me to be fixed.

My initial concern...

[Jurph]

...is that the current equipment out there is probably not actually delivering all of the wattage that the specification calls for. For example, a cable modem draws about 20 watts from the wall; even if it's delivering all of that to computers on the network with no losses... then it can only support one of these machines without drawing power from somewhere else.

Re:My initial concern...

[twodot72]

Do most current equipment even support PoE? Does the modem in the table?

Anyway, if the cable modem DID support PoE it still wouldn't draw more power from the wall socket than needed for the modem itself if no PoE device is connected to it. That table only shows how much the modem actually did draw during the measurement. That doesn't prove that the modem couldn't draw more power from the socket if needed, which is what matters.

Re:My initial concern...

[DigitalRaptor]

A cable modem that doesn't support PoE draws about 20 watts from the wall.

Network equipment that adheres to the PoE spec has to draw enough power from the wall to power itself and the devices on each of its ports.

Re:My initial concern...

[pintpusher]

Yet the article speaks of network hubs, et al powered this way. Imagine the tech support calls:

n00b: I've got my two PoE computers and my PoE printer plugged into my PoE hub, why don't they work?

tech: AAARGGGGHHH!!!!! [bang] [flop]

Re:My initial concern...

[mpe]

...is that the current equipment out there is probably not actually delivering all of the wattage that the specification calls for. For example, a cable modem draws about 20 watts from the wall;

It uses 20 watts of 230VAC. Quite a bit of that will be heat generated by the power supply. Which is probably the simplist, cheapest circuit to convert the 230VAC into whatever voltage(s) the electronics run on.

even if it's delivering all of that to computers on the network with no losses... then it can only support one of these machines without drawing power from somewhere else.

A single cable can deliver 15.4w. If the PSU is feeding 16 cables then it needs to be capable of supplying around 250w...

Re:My initial concern...

[poot_rootbeer]

20 Watts? Great, that's almost enough to run 10% of my desktop PC.

And yes, I've already factored in an estimate that 1/3 of the power used by my current runs-on-AC computer is lost as waste heat.

Re:My initial concern...

[tritonic]

I'm more worried about...

what happens if you plug a legacy PC into your network.
Anyone remember the Etherkiller? Great fun at a lanparty!

Re:Wireless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you were kidding, but wireless power Does exist. T

No GigE support

[nd]

This works using the "unused" lines of CAT5. Sure, they're unused for 10/100 ethernet, but this will be much less useful once everyone is using Gigabit ethernet (which uses all 4 pairs).

Re:No GigE support

[pla]

This works using the "unused" lines of CAT5.

Sometimes.

You can also use it on the Tx/Rx pairs as well.

Why?

Because ethernet uses a differential signal. You can ship a constant DC offset over it, and it doesn't interfere with the signal in the least.

Re:No GigE support

[mpe]

This works using the "unused" lines of CAT5. Sure, they're unused for 10/100 ethernet, but this will be much less useful once everyone is using Gigabit ethernet (which uses all 4 pairs).

That is one way of doing it. The other way is to use "phantom" power between the data pairs. The latter will work fine with gigabit.

Re:No GigE support

[mpe]

PoE uses either the unused or the data pairs.

If you were to put power on all 4 pairs you should be able to take twice the power...

I'd hit it...

[er_head66]

when they start Power over Wifi...

Re:I'd hit it...

[Bazman]

There's enough power in radio transmissions to be able to pick them up without power. I used to have a little radio set where you clipped a croc clip to something big and metal (like a radiator, which is probably connected to the rest of your heating system) and then stuck an earphone in your lughole. You could get the main radio stations.

A long way to being able to power a PC though. Now microwaves.....

Re:I'd hit it...

[denis-The-menace]

if you can stand the headaches from the microwaves...

Re:I'd hit it...

[JaF893]

You sound like Nikola Tesla!

Re:I'd hit it...

[badfish99]

I stayed the night at a friend's house once, and noticed that the kitchen light was on all night. When I pointed this out, he said "we can't turn it off". He demonstrated that he could take the fluorescent tube out of its fitting, and it was still glowing.
I never found out where the radiation was coming from, but I never wanted to stay in his house again.

First PoEst?

[The Dread Pirate Rob]

Did I get first PoEst?

Re:First PoEst?

[AndroidCat]

Quoth the raven: Nevermore.

Re:First PoEst?

[LarsG]

And when the PoE connection to the back-end database breaks:

Quoth the server: 404.

Re:First computer powered over Ethernet?

[beef3k]

Yes, of course it will, although you might get electrocuted while casually walking through your living room.

Can you say...

[RealProgrammer]

single Point of Failure? There, I thought you could.

(I know that's PoF, not PoE, but hey.)

Not everyone has PoE

[Tree131]

Not everyone has PoE at home, so this solution would only be ideal for businesses. You can of course always get a PoE cable that will plug in to the wall socket through a transformer and the ethernet jack, thereby combining the power, however that defeats the purpose of PoE, because most devices out there support both 110V and 220V, and they all have universal connectors and power supplies capable of handling whatever voltage you throw at them. An you'll still be plugging it into an electrical socket. You will also need a helluva lot more power to run processor intensive apps, so this would pretty much limit this machine to secretaries and web surfers/majority of home users - see above on why this is not a solution for home.

Re:Not everyone has PoE

[Tree131]

It is a lot easier for business to adapt/justify PoE than for a home user. They just see it as another technology that's better than what they have, and when the natural upgrade cycle comes around, they upgrade to it.

Example - flat-screens - they were first adapted by businesses, way before they were made popular with the consumer.

In the future...

[Anonymous Coward]

So in the future everyone will be getting their power from ethernet cables and their connectivity through power lines?

Re:In the future...

[gosand]

So in the future everyone will be getting their power from ethernet cables and their connectivity through power lines?

Only in Soviet Russia.

Must have given up

[kpwoodr]

I guess the power company gave up on providing internet access over the power lines...Power over the internet lines is the next best thing!

horrible joke, mod low! I'd like troll please.

Power by wifi..

[the_twisted_pair]

...sounds like a job for Nikola Tesla... for which you will need a tin foil ha*bang*fizzz* ~#$£$%&)67~NO CARRIER

Re:Power by wifi..

[AntsInMyPants]

I'm tired of all these no carrier jokes. Isn't it about time we move onto something new and more funny...something more li#$%@#$@%$~NO CARRIER

Re:Power by wifi..

[wernercd]

Your telling this to a web board that lives off of 1) 2) 3)Profit!!!, In Soviet Russia Something More Carriers You!!!, and other stupid jokes MONTHS after they stopped being funny?

Your speaking to the wrong crowd if you think old jokes will die. You might as well start saying 640k will be enough and just go with the flow.

Re:Power by wifi..

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

You must be new here.

Re:Power by wifi..

[magarity]

All your stupid jokes MONTHS after they stopped being funny are belong to /.

Re:Power by wifi..

[legojenn]

I think you missed the one about only older people in Korea ...

Re:Power by wifi..

[SidShakal]

I think you missed the one about only older people in Korea ...

But is it Sweex-specific?

PoE

[karvind]

I am not sure why is this a new news when the idea is around for sometime.

The Power over ethernet website which has links to articles and products (check the dates on some of the articles).

A good article about ins and outs of PoE

Don't confuse PoE with Perl Object Environment or Poe Puzzle

Nevertheless it is a good concept with lot of benefits (as well as drawbacks)

Cost savings. PoE significantly reduces the need for electricians to install conduit, electrical wiring, and outlets throughout the facility. In larger installations, these items can be relatively expensive. Consider an installation of 50 or more access points. This requires lots of conduits, outlet boxes, electrical wiring and the time of a qualified electrician. The low costs of deploying PoE compared to traditional electrical circuits leads to worthwhile returns on investment.

Flexible access point locations. With PoE, a wireless LAN designer has greater freedom to locate access points. You don't need to depend on only locations within short distances from AC outlets. The independence from AC outlets also makes it easier to relocate access points in the future if needed to fine-tune RF coverage or increase capacity. Thus, PoE enables companies to more easily maximize the performance of a wireless LAN.

Higher reliability. Systems with fewer wires tend to be more reliable. With WLANs not using PoE, cleaning people may unplug an access point to use its AC outlet to power vacuum and buffing equipment. Electricians rewiring electrical circuits could inadvertently cut power to an access point. PoE eliminates the possibility of situations that disrupt the operation of the network.

Enhanced operational support. Many PoE devices implement SNMP (simple network management protocol), which enables support staff to remotely manage the electrical power supplied to the access points. For example, support staff can disable a PoE-enabled access point by shutting off its power after detecting a breach of security. The temporary disabling of the access point can protect against an intruder from continuing unauthorized access to corporate systems. Other SNMP-based features enable the monitoring of the condition and consumption of power, which enhances the ability to ensure smooth and efficient network operations.

Simpler international development. For manufacturers, PoE offers the benefit of the vendor not needing to provide different power cords for various countries. This not only helps keep the cost of access points done -- it's one less piece of equipment that installers need to worry about

Re:PoE

[ultimabaka]

With WLANs not using PoE, cleaning people may unplug an access point to use its AC outlet to power vacuum and buffing equipment.

Well if what you're saying becomes true, the cleaning lady of the future will just wind up unplagging someone's PoE device to plug in their now-PoE powered vacuum cleaner right?

What better use is there for a vacuum than to get the sports scores or *gasp* cleaning techniques? ;)

Re:PoE

[goneutt]

So, how much more will PoE network equipment and PC's cost than just putting in the electrical plugs?

This might work in a new layout for wifi access points, but then you'll be restricted to WiFi components that fit this motif. Just bite the bullet and keep things flexible. The few sites that install this gear will be ripping up the place later to install power lines when they realize the new gear needs special PoE cat 5 (with 16 gauge wires)

Re:PoE

[booch]

PoE for a vacuum? Not likely! My vacuum, and most that I've seen around here are in the 12 Amp range (around 1500 Watts). About 100 times more juice that PoE can provide.

Re:PoE

[mpe]

This might work in a new layout for wifi access points, but then you'll be restricted to WiFi components that fit this motif.

How many access points need more that 15w of power?

Re:PoE

[poot_rootbeer]

Consider an installation of 50 or more access points. This requires lots of conduits, outlet boxes, electrical wiring and the time of a qualified electrician.

Consider that the people who will be WORKING at these access points will have lamps, PDA chargers, coffee makers, etc., that all require AC mains power. Do you want to be the one to explain to them how much money the company saved by not installing any outlets?

Again, it's a moderately reasonable idea for dense, people-free network environments like server rooms. For anywhere else, not so much.

Re:PoE

[lizrd]

Actually, access points are often installed in people free envorinments. It usually works best to mount the access points to the ceiling where there are not such things as cubicle walls, lamps, PDA charges, coffee makers and other devices that require AC mains power.

The exception is overhead flouro or HID lighting, but this often runs at a higher voltage (277 in the US) than is provided to the regular recepticles. That would mean runing new 120V (or 240V in other bits of the world) service to the AP locations in addition to the network cable that is also required.

The one drawback to POE is that the places where installing it are most attractive are also places that are likely to run into the 100m segment length limit. Using POE to APs on the ceiling at a convention center or warehouse makes a lot of sense, but often fibre is required to overcome length restrictions on the copper.

If you were about to ask about power over fibre, please think harder.

Re:PoE

[tcgroat]

Plus: Full uninteruptible power supply support without running a special set of power circuits, or putting a small UPS under every desk.

Minus: When the central PoE provider or its UPS goes down, you have a major system outage--not just one dead workstation.

Plus: The wiring is inexpensive, paid for, and incompatible with noisy electrical appliances.

Minus: Power delivery depends on the integrity of the Cat5 cable and connectors. They aren't as rugged, and efficiency is low: not only is the wire small, but the lower system voltage means loss percentange increases greatly (as 1/V^2).

Inadequate AC line power should not be an issue. The NEC requires a minimum KW/square foot allocation for office equipment and lighting. When PC usage exploded, the Code was upgraded to accommodate them. In particular, undersized neutral conductors are no longer allowed. If your wiring is up-to-date, average desktop PCs shouldn't be a problem. If it isn't, PoE won't satisfy the building inspector or OSHA.

wiring mistakes

[bigmo]

can be a very bad thing with power over ethernet. I suppose most equipment would be ok with power on the wrong pins since it's probably 5v anyway. However, some equipment (such as cat5 audio/video distribution boxes) aren't usually made to handle power at the wrong place or even worse, if it's at 12v. For the correct app, it's really convenient, but I think "universal power supply" is a little optimistic.

This is way cool!

[PenguinBoyDave]

I think this is cool because it shows how little energy is required. I am now wondering if there would be a way to mount a solar cell on the outside of a laptop that could be positioned in such a way as to catch enough light to make the WiFI people able to use this low-energy computer. Hmmmmmm

Re:This is way cool!

[DrinkingIllini]

Where are you going to mount a solar cell on a laptop? Put it on top and you lose a lot of light when you open it, anywhere else it's inconvenient. I think WiFi people will have to stick with batteries.

Re:This is way cool!

[PenguinBoyDave]

What I would do is mount in on the backside of the monitor (the top) but put it on hinges that would allow you to open it up in such away that would allow you to get max light. I'm sure it is much more complex that I am capable of, but someone out there who is in to all that and has the knowledge to actually make something like that work could do it.

Re:This is way cool!

[Cunk]

It could have its own hinge attaching it to the laptop lid so you can adjust the angle to catch as much light as possible. Even better, if it was designed properly, it could double as a sun screen to provide some shade to make the LCD easier to view in the bright sunlight.

In other countries...

[Tenebrious1]

By contrast power sockets and plugs differ by country.

Which is why I carry one set of adapters for my laptop, and then charge my cell, palm, blackberry, and iPod via the USB on the laptop. Sure PoE might provide enough power to run a laptop, but it wouldn't provide enough juice to recharge the laptop batteries and all the other devices I need charged.

Don't you need a switch which supports PoE?

[Digital_Quartz]

"PoE could end up being a universal power supply system as the cables and connectors for it are the same all over the world."

Don't you need a hub or switch which supports PoE? Ethernet sockets may be the same all over the world, but how many PoE-enabled ethernet sockets have you seen on a day to day basis?

Re:Don't you need a switch which supports PoE?

[D_Lehman(at)ISPAN.or]

Thinking from a business perspective, it is things like this that are a goldmine. They are the solutions to problems freshly created. More hubs/switches/routers with PoE at a time when Wifi is getting all the news. Just think of the market for ethernet surge protectors! /me runs off to purchase 100 shares of every company that makes ethernet surge protectors.

Wait, did someone here just say USB for power? /me sells all shares back, and goes to buy USB power protection companies.

People are wanting to deliver data over electric lines, and power over data lines? This is why I don't eat out anymore... white or wheat, my god waitress, can't you let me relax for one second!

Re:Don't you need a switch which supports PoE?

[stonecypher]

It's a lot easier to replace one hub than a building full of outlets and the devices dependant thereon.

Re:gbit and PoE

[FreeLinux]

PoE was using unused lines in the ethernet cable
Yes.

and gbit new uses all 4 pairs
No. Gigabit ethernet uses the same pairs as 10/100 ethernet.

so is that the end of PoE?
No.

can plugging in a gbit network card into a PoE enabled line damage that card or the computer?
No. Unless you do it while you are in the bath tub ;)

Cool ... but

[tomstdenis]

We already have PoU [Power over USB] which was a rehash of PoS [power over serial/parallel] etc...

I think it's good that we can use something like an already existing cat-5 network to power a computer though..

In my case my USB powered 3-port cat-5 switch was handy when I was in France last as a quick-and-dirty means to a network. Can get ~50Mbit/s off it which isn't bad for 2.5 watts.

Tom

Beg your pardon?

[xtracto]

FTA: 'PoE could end up being a universal power supply system as the cables and connectors for it are the same all over the world.

FTA?? That meaning F*ck the article??.

Seriously, it would be nice to be able to charge your Laptop battery with the Network cable, although current notebooks have a 120~230 AC adapter, I think it is cumbersome when I need to connect: 1. the laptop AC adaptor; 2. the laptop network adaptor; 3. the 2 or 3 USB devices I have (camera, external HD, etc). I end with so much cables for a portable notebook...

Great!

[JohnTheFisherman]

PoE could end up being a universal power supply system as the cables and connectors for it are the same all over the world. By contrast power sockets and plugs differ by country.

That's awesome! It solves the cable problem! I'll just plug my universal AC/DC power supply into....d'oh!

Not everyone uses PoE

[mrmagos]

FTA: 'PoE could end up being a universal power supply system as the cables and connectors for it are the same all over the world. By contrast power sockets and plugs differ by country.'

This may be true, however not all places use PoE, so you would still have to lug around an injector that may not be compatible with the country you're in.
Also, what happens when more people convert to Gigabit? What if there's no Ethernet drop available, just WiFi?
Neat concept maybe, but somewhat behind the times IMHO.

Hmm... potentially useful for _certain_ devices

[Dejohn]

It's not like we don't already have power outlets near our workstations. It's not like 15 watts is going to power your computer AND your monitor. So, who really cares? This article could have just as easily been titled "New energy-saving computer produced - now you can lower your electricity bill this summer!"

The general idea could apply, however, in situations where we already use PoE technology: places where it's a lot more convenient not to call the electritian in addition to the low voltage cabler. Like in the ceiling for access points and stuff. But... scheez... my WAPs already run Linux. What else do I need?

Too Less Power to play around....

[fuddoo]

Idea is great ! But doesnot seems to be practical with Computer having moitor,dvd drive,cd drive....etc. Even If we use USB device which is drawing power from the PC and ultimately from the network which can only supply a limited power. So no of USB devices connecting to the computer will also be very limited. Theoretically if a computer consumes Microwatts it can get power over wireless LAN...So no more Cables!

Bad Idea

[Detritus]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

While there are certain specialized applications where "power over X" is convenient, it shouldn't be used when normal power is available.

Re:Bad Idea

[Mant]

I know this is /. but maybe you could actually give some, you know, reasons? There may be some, but if you don't say we don't know.

Re:Bad Idea

[Detritus]

How about safety, simplicity, cost and noise? As a general rule, I like to keep power lines isolated from signal lines. That allows each to be optimized for a single task. It keeps noise from being coupled from the power distribution system to the transmission lines used by signals. It keeps large current flows off of cables and connectors that were not designed for power distribution. It allows the use of standard (cheap) parts that have proven performance and reliability.

Re:Almost Brilliant but who pays for it

[Speare]

Uh, fewer cables and redundant AC/DC converters (wall warts)? Why does every single device need to have a heavy power-processing unit to do the same task of AC/DC conversion? Do it once and make many devices share the low-voltage supply.

Re:What if....

[Cecil]

The ethernet port *is* the power input. RJ-45s have 8 connectors. PoE uses some of the spare conductors to provide power, the rest still do data.

ObRTFA:

Power-over-Ethernet (PoE) works because when data is sent down network cables it is represented by voltages. PoE uses spare wires in cables that link computers back to network hubs and pump power down these, separate from data traffic.

PoE: Purity of Essence?

[dlleigh]

I was thinking this might be some sort of companion software to CRM114.

So many projects, so few acronyms.

Nice idea, but...

[Cyn]

an ethernet plug is a lot more fragile and prone to 'not snapping in properly' than your average power plug. If some critical control system is powered properly, and disappears from the network, you plug it back in. If it was getting power over that same cable, it now has to boot back up, reinitialize, and figure out where it left off.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice thought - but personally I've run into a fair variety of RJ45 jacks. Maybe this would finally snub out those people making the shitty ones, so I'm all for that.

So, if I use the power lines

[benhocking]

So, if I use the power lines for broadband ethernet, will I still be able to use this technology to power my computer, or does it only work for ethernet cables?

Re:So, if I use the power lines

[KiloByte]

Uh oh... ethernet over power lines over ethernet over power over ethernet over power... *BZZZT*

Re:So, if I use the power lines

[sconeu]

You laugh. But... When I was at a Fibre Channel house, I did the IPFC (IP over FC) drivers. At one point as a joke, I seriously considered writing an IPFCIPFC (IP over (FC over (IP over FC))) driver, just to see if the tunneling would nest.

Re:So, if I use the power lines

[KiloByte]

Yup, such recursion can be a nice exercise, even if just for its hack value.
This said by a guy who hit his "screen -DRR" alias a few times too many...

Re:Overclocking?

[eclectus]

easy, plug in more lan cards.

Re:gbit and PoE

[Xepherys2]

No. Gigabit ethernet uses the same pairs as 10/100 ethernet.

No. 1000Base-T (802.3ab), or Gigabit Ethernet, does indeed require all four pairs (8 conductors) of the cable.

The REAL solution

[zakezuke]

Establish a GLOBAL standard for power and just go with it. Why not just 12V DC, the already established standard for autos. PoE is such a mickey mouse solution as others have already pointed out will likely confuse people. Pick a plug... anything in the 10mm size should be just dandy.

Perhaps someone who has wired their house for low voltage would share their solutions. IIRC you couldn't have low and high voltage in the same gang box according to the NEC (National Electrical Code - USA), which is unfortunate as that would be the obvious way to get wall current and convert it to low voltage which is apparently a NO NO.

Re:The REAL solution

[belg4mit]

12V is no longer standard for cars

Re:The REAL solution

[SorcererX]

well, first of all, the loss of power is much greater with voltages like 12 V than 230 V and so on, besides I prefer to have 1-2 amps to my computer instead of 20.

Re:The REAL solution

[zakezuke]

If you want a small plug/wire and a small voltage, your going to end up with a small watt limit, fine for things currently run on DC, but not a GLOBAL standard.

Higher than an RJ-45 connector. I don't mean to totally replace the house wiring with DC, but create a standard for a house DC plug for use with portable devices, ones which you're likely to take with you to other countries. This would include laptops, CD players, digital alarm clocks, you name it. Anything that consumes higher wattage, save things like hair dryers, are not things you are likely to travel with.

Re:The REAL solution

[Alien Being]

Yes, it is. From the article you referenced"

"These more powerful systems will take a decade to reach showrooms in any number."

Re:The REAL solution

[Bent Mind]

IIRC you couldn't have low and high voltage in the same gang box according to the NEC (National Electrical Code - USA), which is unfortunate as that would be the obvious way to get wall current and convert it to low voltage which is apparently a NO NO.

I did a quick Google for the National Electrical Code. However, all I could find were commercial sites that had it for sale. Talk about closed standards. Could someone quote the relevant sections or a link where they could be looked up? I ask because I recently added a small work bench to a utility room. I replaced the original gang box with a double gang box with AC power on one side and cat-5 on the other. There is a plastic divider between the two that was sold at Home Depot for just this purpose.

Re:The REAL solution

[uberdave]

Just because you have to buy it doesn't mean that it's a closed standard.

Re:The REAL solution

[epall]

I actually have a small-scale solar power setup that powers my 17W server, our gateway router, my Palm charger, and a few other things all directly at 12 volts. The whole setup is 12V and we have "power busses" throughout out house for LED and stuff. They are two strips, one of copper, one of aluminum. The positive side is copper with female spade connectors. The negative side is aluminum with female bullet connectors. Sound safe? Yeah, it's pretty homebrew but I make pretty real-time graphs and it works well. I'd give you the URL but I haven't set it up to cache the generated graph and I don't want my poor 17W Epia 533 server to get slashdotted.

We are moving in the direction of car connectors, but we need too much diversity. Mant devices have panasonic connectors, but they're all different sizes! If companies standarized on one size of panasonic connector, I think everything would be great.

Re:The REAL solution

[juanfe]

Yes!
Let the UN general assembly do it!
No, wait, maybe it should be the ITU!
No, wait, maybe it should be the ISO!
Hmm... maybe the International electrotechnical commission?

Oh, wait... the US doesn't like standards-setting bodies. OR international organizations, for that matter.

It's better to have a hodgepodge of cell phone technologies that don't talk to each other, a silly measurement system based on bodyparts and british wheat, a TV broadcast system that never twice gives you the same color, never mind a digital TV standard that the rest of the world won't use.

I'm sure Bolton will take care of it once he's in the UN as our ambassador. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Re:The REAL solution

[bluGill]

Try your local library. They likely have a copy. Mine does, and I checked it out one time. Basicly unreadable. The only reason to have it at all is if you can find the right section you can argue with the inspector. Not worth it in other words.

As I recall (but I'm not qualified to give any advice in this area) you are legal because your low voltage is physically separate from the high voltage.

Re:The REAL solution

[stonecypher]

The problem with global power standards is multifold.

1) There isn't one power rate which is ideal for all devices. Each power standard is a compromise.

2) The cost of replacing the existing national systems would be fantastic; the cost of replacing the dependant devices would be obscene.

3) Autos have never had a standard power; the notion that 12v is a standard is a misguided interpretation of the typical voltage of a car battery, which does not provide the electricity for a car, but rather for the starter motor. However, Geos use 10v batteries, trucks generally use 15s, and so on. At no point has that voltage been universal, and it's getting less so thanks to complex battery systems in hybrids.

which is unfortunate as that would be the obvious way to get wall current and convert it to low voltage which is apparently a NO NO.

Maybe nobody told you about transformers or capacitors? You did notice those AC supplies in the computer and those AC blocks for the laptops, right? Ever wonder what those do?

Besides, it's amperage and wattage we want to decrease, not voltage. Voltage should go up; that way less is lost to resistance. (Problematically, that requires upping the amperage, making the outlets more dangerous.)

Proprietary is Better...

[sysadmn]

for the vendor. What this overlooks is that there is a reason designers select proprietary power and data cable connections. It gives that vendor a head start in selling you all the other useful things that plug into that port. The worst offenders are cell phone and pda makers. Notebook vendors are almost as bad. Commodity players might have a reason to adopt a standard to drive costs down, but lots of others do not.

Apple's power thru firewire

[adzoox]

I've always liked the iPod ACs that used firewire cables to charge the iPod & thought Apple (to save money and promote firewire) should standardize all their ACs to this spec and same look.

Re:Apple's power thru firewire

[tomstdenis]

You can do the same with USB and RS232 [iirc] and Parallel by sinking off a status bit or two (limited to like 25mA though).

Back in the day I've seen things like sound cards working on game ports, serial or parallel. People used what they had available ;-)

The big change in IEEE1934 and USB is that the power draw is actually standard [e.g. 500mAh for USB] and not just "common".

My Creative Micro-Zen player charges either off an AC adapter or a USB connection. It uses one connection though on the player [mini-USB] to save space. Of course the AC adapter can output 1Ah instead of the 500mAh the USB connection can...

Tom

Re:Apple's power thru firewire

[glesga_kiss]

I've always liked the iPod ACs that used firewire cables to charge the iPod

Old technology really, but mentioning Apple got you your mod points ;-) I've had charging USB devices for at least three years, and an access point that uses PoE for at least as long. The AP mains adapter terminates with a box with two cat-5 sockets on it. One goes to the switch, one to the AP (with power). I've often wondered what would happen if I plugged it in the wrong way and sent the power to my NIC/switch... :-)

Re:Apple's power thru firewire

[adzoox]

The point wasn't really about whether it's been around or not - it would be a heck of lot less engineering, cost, and confusion if the entire PC industry went to something like firewire for their power - much like the standard 3 prong on all CPU towers and desktops

Re:Apple's power thru firewire

[glesga_kiss]

I'm not sure if it has enough juice yet, certainally with existing technologies. Also, how could you power a desktop with firewire, then have firewire ports hanging off it? They then could have firewire powered PCs trying to power themselves from that. Not going to work.

In some ways, the current system works well. By having a big fat feed into the PC, you supply many little devices from it. What I'd rather see is a domestic uber DC supply that had 12/5 V available. Even then, I think there are still some valid reasons for using AC over DC.

The induction chargers are more promising for portable devices. They don't even plug in, just sit the device near (or on) the charger. With networking going to wireless anyway, I think it won't be all that long before we start to see devices with no I/O ports on them whatsoever. Will make design cheaper & simplers, the devices will be stronger and more durable. And it will be easier to use. Win win, except for the anti-RF people...!

Re:No GigE support [WRONG]

[highfreq2]

Actually, it works by put 40VDC between the TX and RX pairs. The coupling transformers block the DC before it gets to the PHY. It is compatible with gigabit. POE allows the use of the unused lines. This is needed for a seperate power injector, which can't touch the signal lines.

Re:not likely.

[duffbeer703]

This obviously isn't going to replace standard electrical sockets anytime soon, but there is alot of potential to create efficient offices with this technology. Telecoms and the military have been using DC powered computers with centralized power supplies for years.

Right now in a typical office, you often have hundreds of computers on a floor, each with their own power supplies converting AC-power from the wall to DC that the computer can use. It is obviously inefficient to be running a couple of hundred 300W power supplies than one or two big ones.

If you could easily centralize on a couple of power converters, you would see major efficency gains, both from the converters themselves and from reduced air conditioning load in the office areas.

Great, but...

[Phu5ion]

Will it play Half Life 2?

PoE? What about EoP?

[WaterBreath]

Wait a minute! I thought the next big thing was ethernet over power, not power over ethernet!

What's going on!?

Oh no... I've entered some sort of "Bizarro World" haven't I??? A world where technologies are turned backwards and inside out without warning! What a terrifying prospect!

actually...

[dknight]

... I thought the same thing when I first read it..

damn that game!!

Re:Almost Brilliant but who pays for it

[AndroidCat]

Back in the dawn age, weren't there some cheesy modems powered by the phone line? I'll bet that the phone companies had something to say about that idea. (And said by large lawyers with clubs.)

(Not so much the cost of the power as that the system wasn't designed for large scale freeloading.)

distance limit?

[radarsat1]

It's a very cool idea, but I don't know much about PoE so take this with a grain of salt... if you're putting out DC power over a network cable, won't it be quite limited in the distance it can go?

However the idea of carrying around a battery-less computer and just plugging it into a network is kind of interesting..
Though I'm having a hard time thinking of *serious* advantages.

Re:distance limit?

[ajnsue]

I wonder with time whether this will have applications in the server room. Heats a major issue in most high capacity rack systems. The idea of not having to add more HVAC capacity and PDU access for every additional server is pretty cool. Plus no big issue with power hogs like CPU's and disk drives -as long as you keep the storage separate.

Re:distance limit?

[ajnsue]

geez, I gotta preview more often. the Power hog I meant was the CRT's not the CPU. Course that might have been an unconscious dig at Intel. I wonder how many home and work appliances could be moved to lo-voltage. For two reasons. Take advantage of intelligience and the cost savings in wiring with UTP. I know that LED lights are going replace incandescents. Imagine house lights with network identities. Where each can have different behaviour profiles. You can have built in IR sensors that turn them on as soon as you sit down in front of them for x seconds, or merely walk infront of them.

Re:wiring mistakes [Not a problem]

[highfreq2]

The spec is quite careful in this regard. The power can be delivered in either polarity, because there is a diode bride at the powered device. Also it does a low voltage discovery phase to determine if the device is POE, and how much current the device can be expected to draw. If it is not POE then no power is deliverd. This also avoid the potential for a scary spark when pluging in a POE device.

Re:gbit and PoE

[garignak]

Grandparent post wrote:

and gbit new uses all 4 pairs

Parent post wrote:

No. Gigabit ethernet uses the same pairs as 10/100 ethernet.

Um, 1000base-T DOES use all four pairs. A quick google search turned up the following links...

http://pinouts.ru/data/ethernet1000baset_pinout.sh tml http://www.ertyu.org/~steven_nikkel/ethernetcables .html

amazing because... Windows is so bloated?

[cahiha]

There are lots of PoE-powered computers: switches, access points, etc. Many of them have processors running at over 100MHz and many megabyte of RAM--more than powerful enough to run software satisfying the computing needs of most people.

So, the only reason why a PoE-powered computer is "amazing" is because what is sold as a PC these days requires a lot of power, and it requires a lot of power because Windows requires a lot of memory, disk space, and CPU.

PoE is a kludge!

[wowbagger]

PoE is just another kludge being standardized because the industry is too lazy and stupid to define a proper standard.

Ethernet cables were designed to carry DATA, not power. Running a 12W computer off PoE with any kind of distance to the power providing hub is going to require about 20W of input to make it work - with the 8W difference going to heat the cables.

With all the concern over the leakage current of wall warts, this is an improvement?

Consider the history of bad decisions like this:

• "Power Points" in cars. Lighter sockets were designed for lighters, not laptops. They have poor mechanical retention (because the lighter needs to be able to pop out when hot), high contact resistance (so what if the contacts get hot? They are SUPPOSED to get hot!), and a really nasty failure mode (Lil' Billy dropping a penny in them while he waits for mommy to get out of the store). But rather than defining a sensible power connection, the automobile industry lazily continue to push lighter sockets as a power point.
  
• USB port powered devices which provide no USB functionality. USB Humidifiers? Cup Warmers? Christmat trees? Ash trays? Cell phone chargers? USB was designed to allow your computer to *control* things, not act as a glorified wall-wart!
  

Now we have this stupid idea. "But Ethernet is standard world-wide, and power jacks aren't!"

So? How about coming up with a standard power/data services jack and deploying it? It's not like Ethernet jacks were a natural phenominon - they were a standard which was created and deployed.

A nice standard power/data jack, with a standardized supply voltage high enough to move a reasonable amount of power through reasonably sized wires, and a data services jack designed to *move data* would be so much nicer in the end.

Also, consider this: You have your plant with a bunch of these PoE computer terminals, each tapping power from your central hub. Each computer will inject a small amount of noise onto the line - that's just a fact of life. How much will that noise start to degrade the network signal - especially when you start talking about gigabit Ethernet?

What if we just standardize on, say, a pair of Anderson Power Pole connectors supplying 24VDC at 2A max, right under a standard RJ-45 Ethernet jack. Devices which want to pull power and data have a combined plug which mates to both sets of connectors, standard Ethernet devices use the top port only. Standardize on using 14 gauge wire for power.

Now you have a sensible standard power port that can be used internationally, still requires the user to just plug one thing in, and isn't a kludge!

(O.T. What is with /. suddenly deciding to replace </li> elements with </li><li> ? It screws up making proper HTML lists!)

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[xtracto]

A nice standard power/data jack, with a standardized supply voltage high enough to move a reasonable amount of power through reasonably sized wires, and a data services jack designed to *move data* would be so much nicer in the end.

Yeah, so now what we all need is another different cable/connector standard so we have to make holes through the houses/companies... also, if you remember Ethernet/RJ-45 connectors where not "Universally proposed defacto standards", they are more acquired standards, and what PoE is about is to take advantage of the current infrastructure.

It is all about that, to take advantage of something that is already created. And at the end, do you REALLY think that all the countries will agree and change their power lines?? (ask that to the British!)

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[mpe]

Ethernet cables were designed to carry DATA, not power.

Using the same cable to carry both data and power has been going on for a century.

Running a 12W computer off PoE with any kind of distance to the power providing hub is going to require about 20W of input to make it work - with the 8W difference going to heat the cables.

This isn't a problem with telephone cables. Which tend to be both longer and of poorer overall quality than network cables. Ethernet has a maximum length of 100 metres as opposed to several kilometres for unrepeated telephone circuits.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[wowbagger]

I'm not saying "Change the power lines" - you may notice that I specifically stated the power supplied would be DC, not AC.

So, instead of changing all the infrastructure to supply power on Ethernet, change all the infrastructure to supply proper power.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[Koyaanisqatsi]

> (O.T. What is with /. suddenly deciding to
> replace </li> elements with </li><li> ? It screws
> up making proper HTML lists!)

Too lazy/busy to check now but, IIRC, there is no </li>, so you should not be using it anyway.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[bradkittenbrink]

more like too ignorant/incorrect to check now. is optional in the HTML standard and in fact required in the XHTML 1.0 standard.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[smileyy]

For more information, a conformant SGML parser can, given the HTML DTD, infer the from the next

. It was decided that this type of inferencing made parsers too hard to write, so all inferrable closing tags were made required in XML. This makes parsers easier to write, espeically for ad-hoc DTD/Schema-less XML documents.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[fikx]

Using that logic BroadBand over cable is a kludge. Coax was intended to carry analog signals, not digital data.
Yeah, it's possible to define this as a kludge, but it can also be considered a spec designed to work within an existing infrastructure. In this case, just like Broadband, it gives a huge benefit and is well thought out and implemented. Sounds good to me.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[InfiniteWisdom]

As far as i know individual firewire runs can only be 4.5m and need repeaters to operate over longer distances.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[wowbagger]

Telephones are VERY limited in the amount of power they are allowed to draw - only a few milliamps of current (and that only for ringing, which gets a nominal 90VAC applied at the telco end), and they are to operate over a very wide voltage range.

Off-hook they are only allowed to pull a miniscule amount of power.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[bundaegi]

USB Humidifiers? Cup Warmers? Christmat trees? Ash trays? Cell phone chargers? USB was designed to allow your computer to *control* things, not act as a glorified wall-wart!

You think that's weird? what about a plugging in a freaken toothbrush? :-)

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[jimmydigital]

How much will that noise start to degrade the network signal - especially when you start talking about gigabit Ethernet?

GigE can't use PoE... because GigE uses all 8 conductors to make the data connection... and so there are no idle wires left for the power.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[wowbagger]

PoE can use either the extra leads, or can impress power by placing a DC potential between the standards TX and RX pairs, which is then recovered by the powered device by using a center tap on each of the RX and TX transformers.

So you CAN run PoE on GigE.

Re:PoE is a kludge!

[dangitman]

USB port powered devices which provide no USB functionality. USB Humidifiers? [thinkgeek.com] Cup Warmers? [thinkgeek.com] Christmat trees? [thinkgeek.com] Ash trays? [thinkgeek.com] Cell phone chargers? [calcellular.com] USB was designed to allow your computer to *control* things, not act as a glorified wall-wart!

You see, these USB-powered items have a purpose. They allow God and Santa to keep track of who's naughty, and who's nice. Do you own a USB Christmas tree, or even worse, a USB Massager? You're going straight to hell! Didn't you know you are supposed to massage people with your bare hands, for fuck's sake? Baby Jesus would cry if he knew that people were using pieces of vibrating plastic as a substitute for hands.

POET

[belg4mit]

The only thing I could fond on their site POET. Apparently stands for Power Over Ethernet Touchscreen.

Re:First computer powered over Ethernet?

[AndroidCat]

But on the plus side, you won't have to go to the kitchen to make the popcorn.

Ahh, so *that's* what PoE means!

[MsWillow]

Power Oveer Etheernet. Makes sense, I guess. Far more sense than what I thought. :-/

The last time I'd seen "POE" was in my favorite movie, "Dr. Strangelove," when the whack-job Air Force General launched a nuclear attack on Rusia, using "POE" as the code on the CRM119(? may have the number wrong) discriminator to verify that any radio signals were correct.

POE came from two phrases the general had scribbled on his note pad - "Peace On Earth" and "Purity Of Essence." I was trying to figure out just how a computer could be powered by Purity Of Essence, especially given all the pr0n online these days :)

My bad.

Re:Almost Brilliant but who pays for it

[mrand]

While neat in theory, and useful in certain applications, in general there are a few practical problems with making "many devices share the low-voltage supply":

1. Current flow goes up as voltage goes down (to get the same number of Watts). You don't want to be transmitting a high DC current because series resistance will eat your lunch: Current * Resistance = Voltage drop (aka V=IR, aka Ohm's law).

2. Following on #1, all the devices sharing one supply need to be relatively close to it.

3. Even for low current applications, different devices need different and sometimes multiple voltage rails. Do you supply them all, or just some of them make the target derive the others?

4. Following on both #1 and #3, DC voltage and more importantly, power requirements change over time, so in the end, you'd likely end up with what you have now... multiple DC supplies, some for older devices, some for newer devices.

Now, a number of these problems could be avoided if you used a high enough DC voltage (let's say 48V), but now you have a safety issue if high currents can be delivered, not to mention that each device would need to step down the 48V - so you end up with the same thing you have now.

Link to the computer

[intangible]

For those interested, here's a link to the computer described: Poet 6000

FYI on PoE

[smilheim]

You have a few options with PoE.

One thing that I really like is a lot of our resellers just purchase one large UPS for the PoE switches. If the power to the building goes out no need for remote devices to be plugged into indivual UPS's.

Mid-Span hubs, for those who don't want to upgrade their core switches install these between (mid-span) backbone switches and PoE devices. Usually having data and data+power ports. There are also PoE switches where all ports can be configured to support PoE.

Thin clients

[IGnatius T Foobar]

This sounds like the perfect type of computer to use as a thin client, such as LTSP or perhaps ThinStation. No local maintenance, not even any local power requirements. Just plug into any PoE jack and go.

Dr. Strangelove - Purity Of Essence?

[bobalu]

It's not expensive, but it may be a bit messy...

Nice, soon will be able...

[bicho]

Plug the computer to the network to get power, and plug the nic to the socket in the wall to connect to the internet.

So What

[lbmouse]

My computer is powered by it's USB port.

Great!

[apilosov]

Now I can replace my entire datacenter facility breaker/PDU/rectifier bank with a single 6509 and PoE blades! Plus, it'll also route packets!

Can't use my tongue anymore.

[hal2814]

A few years ago, our department was too cheap to give us proper CAT5 testing tools. We used to stick our tongue to the wire to see if it was connected to the switch. Glad nobody implemented PoE back then or we would've been in for a shock.

Re:What we really need is...

[British]

Didn't Tesla try something involving free electricity through the air?

Unplagging (Typo)

[ultimabaka]

Unplugging...it's Friday, and I sure do feel like unplagging something...

big business !!

[Riiz]

more big business is waiting for microsoft, intel etc!

Wait....

[RavenChild]

The picture of the "ethernet hub" has telephone lines plugged into it, not cat5...

Mac mini "server/cluster" version

[valenti]

I was thinking how great it would be if Apple did a server version of the mini.

POE for power
optionally delete the DVD drive
add a second/gigabit network interface

These would be great for small clusters or dropping network management boxes at various places on the network.

Description

[Spy der Mann]

(In case it gets /.'ed)
Here's a layout of the keyboard used by this low-power computer:

789+-
456*/
123 =
0.C CE
------

old news

[imp]

Soekris boxes have had power over ethernet for some time now. http://www.soekris.com/.

Wow

[Momoru]

Thats alot different then most computers which are powered by a PoS (Windows)

No

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

"By contrast power sockets and plugs differ by country."

Wrong wrong wrongedy wrong.

Yes, different countries use different mains sockets, and they use different voltages / frequencies.

However, nearly every computer built in the last 10 years has a multivoltage / multifrequency power supply, and they always have the standard IEC socket.

When building a rack system, computers are connected to special power strips that have IEC sockets. Regardless of country, the cabling stays the same.

With Active-PFC power supplies, the voltage selection is automatic. Most notebook power supplies have automatic voltage selection as well. Heck, even my cellphone can run on 220V/50Hz.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not wrong. What you're saying is:
- it's possible to buy the same type of plug in every country, and
- computers are smart enough to deal with the fact that voltage/frequency is different everywhere

This does not change the fact that sockets are different in every country.

ass backwards

[akb]

For broad general adoption EoP makes more sense to me than PoE. Every single room in the US has a power outlet in it. So, run the network through the power wiring and make devices that can access it.

Cat5 is more expensive and less plentiful than electrical wiring and parts. Everything needs power.

Did anyone notice?

[Dinglenuts]

In the actual article the picture is of a phone cord and not a cat-5 cable.

Big Deal!

[Mr. BS]

This thing has been out for a month and so what.... it's powered over PoE. What are you going to do with 12 watts? Have you see this thing? It's not even practical for home use

Now when they can get a min of 250 watts...Then I'll be impressed. The IEEE is constantly working on new standards and I really do see PoE taking off huge, but really.... this is a joke. This PC is just a neat gadget that some guys going to have a trade show.

Sorry... not impressed.

PoE is nice

[Amouth]

i have seen alot of people complaine that you shouldn't run power over a cat5-5e-6 cable but trust me if you have ever used one with a device that supports it it is nice. and the tech was very well designed. It is wonderful for ip phones and small devices, granted you can't run a computer that will play your games worth a damn but for bizz it will run terminals greate.. if you ever want to see an intresting thing about power savings.. look up (i can't find it right now) Sun Microsystems anual power savings by switching all there users from desktops to terminals - not only does it give them a better way of maintaining there systems and providing users with lots of resources but if they used PoE in conjunction with terminals it would just improve there savings and allow them to place terminals jsut about any were.. and if your argument is with WiFi this tech would be dumb to use.. feel free to build a tesla coil to power your latop.. but be sure to video tape your self using it as i am sure that ebaumsworld would love to have that vid.

So... 4 bundled network cables power my ATI Video?

[NextGaurd]

I'm sure this has some use at the low end but the PCs that most of us use are requiring more power not less. This article said an AGP slot is limited to 41.8 Watts. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati -powercons.html Even my older ATI 9800 pro needs additional power connector since it needs 45+ watts. Maybe they could make higher gauge netwrok cables? Maybe bring back Coax?

PoE?

[Narchie Troll]

This is just a cover for all the nukes they're planting across the US. Bastards.

Anything that reduces cables makes me happy...

[DavidD_CA]

Like most of you, the back of my desk looks like a bowl of random-colored spaghetti.

I'd love to see a reduction of wires back there. Not just because it's ugly, but because of the time it takes to plug/unplug when I want to change things around.

I had hoped that BlueTooth would reduce this, but I have yet to see a good selection of BT devices to replace things like my printer, monitor, speakers, webcam, etc.

When they made the USB 2.0 standard, couldn't they have given it more juice to power devices like LCDs and scanners? *sigh*

Re:Almost Brilliant but who pays for it

[wernercd]

That's something I hadn't seen mentioned yet. Speaking of phones gave me an idea:

While it sounds like powering a PC via ethernet might be a bad idea, what about powering a Router? or a Modem? WebCam? VoIP phone?

I see tons of people saying what this can't be used for and how a monitor would push this over the limits of the wires capability to handle the current, but think outside the box :P

New Field of Dreams

[narsiman]

If you build it they will abuse it !!

Pieces of Eight

[uberdave]

A piece of eight is (or was) roughly 12.5 cents. Two pieces, or two bits is a quarter (of eight). Four quarters (eight pieces of eight) made up a Spanish peso, which had a value of one dollar when circulating in the US. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieces_of_eight

Okay, now to make that wireless

[shm]

802.11Volts DC, anyone?

Electricity over IP

[Criffer]

Is it just me, or does this sound strikingly similar to RFC 3251?

Thing is, its now 28 days late...

Can we get Power over WiFi?

[port3389]

I thought this would be a good idea for notebooks about 3 years ago when cat5 was the primary option, but now that I'm using WiFi, I hardly ever plug cat5 into my computer.

Now maybe if a small generator could be integrated into a mouse... oh wait - the mouse ball is history.... nevermind.

Re:Almost Brilliant but who pays for it

[danknight]

I belive PoE is 48V its a telcom standard

Re:Wireless?

[pklong]

Nice for some applications (think of public phone charging points / laptop tables with power + wifi) but its only just wireless. It's more like plugless, you have to be on the pad (though I wonder if it could be scaled up to power electric cars for instance, think about an electric highway!)

Tesla had a more practicle wireless power solution in his tower. That crystal radio that you built as a child is wireless power in my book, even if it is only a trickle. (You're not a geek until you build a crystal radio. Hope we never switch over exclusively to digital)

I have heard rumours about someone living under a transmitter being prosecuted after he was found with a large number of coils in his roof, using them to provide heat, but i have my doubts about this one.

Confusion...

[TeknoHog]

Imagine the joy of helpdesk personnel when consumers complain about their old Ethernet sockets not delivering power.

IMHO, PoE is at least as dumb an idea as using the same (mechanically speaking) PS/2 connector for mice and keyboards, with color coding to help people choose the right socket. I imagine a kind of color-coding scheme will emerge for powered and regular Ethernet, but it would be a lot simpler to have different connectors in the first place.

Re:Confusion...

[enosys]

There are bad things about using a different socket. Devices which don't use POE can still connect to POE ports and use the ethernet part. Because of this you'd need special adapter cables. Plus when introducing power over ethernet you'd have to replace all the wall jacks and patch cables and that would be a major expense.

Regarding PS/2 mouse and keyboard connectors, they are electrically identical. Software could theoretically support two PS/2 mice or two keyboards but nobody seems to care about that so the connectors should probably be different.

Does PoE specify the Hz?

[Assmasher]

Just wondering as this differs across countries as well.

Re:Does PoE specify the Hz?

[BlakeCaldwell]

i think it's DC... which would be... 0hz.

Re:Does PoE specify the Hz?

[Assmasher]

That would be good for me to know. LOL. Thx.

Cool! As soon as....

[zogger]

some ISP runs me some ethernet to the premises, I'll buy one! Nice for some applications, but you still need a wall socket someplace to start them electrons flowing. With that said, how much juice can you suck out ot the landline before they go nuts on you? I have no idea other than it's probably "not much", probably illegal, impractical and fattening. I need PFTM (Power From Teh Modem)

Re:Cool! As soon as....

[BlakeCaldwell]

as soon as i read this article i was thinking the same thing -- i was thinking how cool it'd be to at least recharge my batteries off the landline...

then i found this link... it says that when the fone is "on hook", you can only draw 5 microamps. when it's "off hook", you can draw current, but it'll degrade your signal.

that woulda been cool though.

Ooops...

[sam_van]

Read this as "New Computer Powered by Portal of Evil (PoE)"

http://portalofevil.com/

What? No soviet russia jokes???

[pg110404]

In soviet russia, ethernet powers the computer.

make up your mind!

[jafac]

First you say you want broadband over power lines, now you say you want power over 10baseT.

What's next? Tesla's Broadcast-Power mixed with WiMax?

(actually, not a bad idea. . . "Hello, US Patent office? I'd like to patent WiMax plus Broadcast-power. It's my idea. Yes. Also, fairy dust too. Can I patent fairy dust? Yes. Thank you.")

PS/2 connectors

[Otto]

IMHO, PoE is at least as dumb an idea as using the same (mechanically speaking) PS/2 connector for mice and keyboards, with color coding to help people choose the right socket.

Most modern motherboards have them both wired to the same thing anyway, so it honestly makes no difference if you plug the mouse into the "keyboard" socket. This has been on mobo's for at least the last 10 years or so.

Now I grant you that some still existing boards might care which is plugged where, but the vast majority of boxes that I've used don't. I stopped noticing color coding or the little graphics on PS/2 ports years ago, and just plug it into first noticable port. It's not failed for me yet.

Re:PS/2 connectors

[TeknoHog]

Most modern motherboards have them both wired to the same thing anyway, so it honestly makes no difference if you plug the mouse into the "keyboard" socket. This has been on mobo's for at least the last 10 years or so.

So what happens if you plug in two keyboards or two mice? I imagine the system would be pretty confused, since the two are connected to the same controller.

The problem with PoE is that you can plug a PoE-enabled device into a non-PoE switch. While not very dangerous, this sort of "compatibility" would moot the point of PoE, as you'd need a separate power source. You'd have to upgrade some of your existing hardware to PoE-enabled versions, and then be careful to only use those (color coding?) when you need power.

We probably wouldn't need this if the industry had standardized on a low-voltage power connector earlier, instead of every single device using a different one. I wonder why they are so keen to standardize now...

Re:PS/2 connectors

[Otto]

So what happens if you plug in two keyboards or two mice?

Well, I just tested, and on this particular PC (an older Dell), they both work.

The problem with PoE is that you can plug a PoE-enabled device into a non-PoE switch. While not very dangerous, this sort of "compatibility" would moot the point of PoE, as you'd need a separate power source. You'd have to upgrade some of your existing hardware to PoE-enabled versions, and then be careful to only use those (color coding?) when you need power.

I don't see why compatibility is such a sticking point here. PoE is fully backwards compatible. I've used it for years. Plugging a non-PoE device into a PoE plug just works. No damage to anything. Plugging a PoE into a non-PoE port does not work, as there's no power for the device to get, so yeah you use an inline power adapter. No better nor worse than using a power adapter on a non-PoE device, really.

Color coding is not required. Just make all the jacks have power. Plugging old gear into them won't hurt the gear.

Apple iBook

[gnuman99]

It is simpler and more sure to use wires. Also, something like the Apple iBook could probably use PoE to power it. From the specs,

Book G4 with 12.1-inch display: 50-watt-hour lithium-ion battery provides up to 6 hours of battery life on a single charge

So, the average power usage seems to be under 10W. Even if it spikes to 14 or so, it is still good for PoE. At least it is much better than carrying the extra AC adaptor!

Fanboys weep..

[sleighb0y]

How are they going to power all the LED-illuminated fans, Cold Cathode colored lights, beverage warmers, cassette tape players, cigarette lighters, betta tank filters and coffe makers inside their case and still have enough juice left over to actually use the computer?

Re:Almost Brilliant but who pays for it

[wernercd]

Who pays for it?

Phones have had a power portion to their service for a long time now. How else would you simply be able to plug in an old phone and get everything (Remember the time before wireless, answering machines, fax machines when phones were just phones and worked without Wall Warts? :). and as far as I'm concerned I don't see the phone companies THAT concerned about tacking 'just one more' fee onto an already complicated phone bill. Tell me I'm wrong on this one...? But that's my take on things.

If I connect a modem that PoE to my computer the power bill is coming out of my pocket. I'd end up spending the same on power, roughly - A modem plugged in the wall or a modem plugged PoE. Either way it's on my power bill OR the phone company is charging me for power 'service' fee.

WTF is the Point of going through all that just to get a different plug. Are you that low on power outlets?

Well as far as I'm concerned, in my eyes it's not so much about the power.

I would use this technology NOT simply as a 'power cost re-locator' or as a way to save on differing power outputs by different areas (god knows that the stupid standards commities would probably put different power outputs on the PoE lines anyways just like fucking DVD area coding. this isn't that soap box :) but as a way to make there one less power cable, wall wort, less clutter. Simple Convienience factor. Just as wireless makes likfe easier, this would HOPEFULLY be the same.

That way you would hopefully have the option of powering via Wallwart (sans wireless connection and no ethernet) or power via PoE (sans a wallwort and no extra power cables to mess with)

And as a side note, I personally DO have problem with power outlets. I have two desktops, a laptop, phone, lights, modem, router, speakers, monitor, TV, VCR, DVD player, mini-fridge, external backup hard drives, burners, etc ad nausium. Those take up ALOT of power plug slots. Add cables to clutter (or spend time uncluttering) Add wall warts to hide. Speaker cables to run. Little by little those cables add up. As someone who deals with all this - ANY device that requires fewer cable(s) would be MORE than worth it if once it started adding up. If I could get my Modem, router, phone... hell if they could come up with a cable powered speaker system (a surround sound type system... not a cheap 'desktop speaker' crap system) I would go for that too.

Yes this would require upgrade parts/power supply, but as someone who's upgrading regularly to keep up with games it wouldn't be that much of a hassle for me personally.

Not an issue

[bluGill]

If the ethernet is out on a modern computer it doesn't matter if there is power to the machine or not. Likewise if the computer doesn't have power it doesn't matter if there is a good ethernet connection to the computer. So why not combine them, there is no loss in reliability.

Power point:Want 110V? Buy a Toyota (or a Pontiac)

[markdowling]

I charge my cellphone from the 110V outlet in my Pontiac Vibe, which has a console mounted plug socket owing to the fact that it is the twin of the Toyota Matrix, and apparently Toyota put 110V in! Very handy, and you have a separate ciggie lighter too if you smoke :)

Re:Wireless?

[gotr00t]

That's just electromagnetic inductance, and it's hardly anything new at all. Many appliances that we use today, including our televisions and radios, _rely_ on this very concept to recieve and decode/amplify the pictures/sounds from radio waves.

If the patent office has any competence at all (I don't have much confidence in them), the device in the article should not be granted a patent because there is much prior art. Take the Sonicare electric toothbrush for example. It is battery powered and rechargable, but it dosn't have any electrical contacts on the outside at all. It is essentially based on the same principle.

Re: "this method"

[Keith McClary]

Sometimes you don't even need to build special adapters.

For example, the 25VAC wall wart for my modem had the same connector as the 9VDC for my scanner.

When I emailed USR about where to buy a new wall wart they just sent me one free.

I felt a bit sleazy about returning the scanner on warranty, but they really should have some over-voltage protection built into these things.

Re:gbit and PoE

[Melkman]

And one should add that PoE can use the signal pairs to provide power too. So GigE and PoE are perfectly compatible.

Wireless power

[WebCowboy]

The best wireless power device in the home I can think of is the microwave oven. Given the effects that such wireless power has on my lunch over a span of mere minutes, I do not think mass adoption of wireless power would be a particularly good idea.

Re:Efficiency in action

[shaitand]

Except that in the world of powerlines there is already a single point of failure at some point in the system.

Re:Almost Brilliant but who pays for it

[dbIII]

Why does every single device need to have a heavy power-processing unit to do the same task of AC/DC conversion?

Because Edison was wrong on this issue - moving DC around is a pain, requires very thick pieces of copper, and has more safety issue than AC. While wiring the whole house in DC doesn't make sense if you draw a lot of current, having one DC "power board" to plug in all the local computer bits does make sense in these days of LCD screens.

Wiring the house in DC if you don't draw a lot of current can make sense, and is done in remote areas where people are running off a 12V DC source (eg. solar or fuel run generator). My parents did that over forty years ago for lighting in a remote area.

PoE & Building code

[dnamaners]

Consider this:

if I begin using PoE in my building here in the USA, in order to be within code, I have to put my ethernet cable in a conduit. While bare wires in walls is ok if it is just for data, but all forms of power lines heave to be enclosed. This issue may not be present in all states of the union but similar unreasonable (I.e. legally imposed) restrictons can hinder any widespread adoption of this. Simply due to the hassle, higher costs of conversions and red tape.

On the other side, I am sure a few, less building code tied, home users may just love a 15 watt PoE powered multimedia computer (think Myth box), I for one would.

what about the Monitors?

[Kaenneth]

Flat panels are still more expensive; so you'll still need power for tubes, or money for panels.

This would still be useful for those little print server boxes; standalone network disks; and for someone to plug in a hidden network sniffer to steal your passwords and confidential data.

Are your Ethernet cables laid in a safe way for such power? what do your local fire codes say? will your legacy card in your old 486 Firewall ironically combust?

Delicious irony

[blippy]

"BBC News is reporting about a new PC that's powered via a network cable rather than through a wall socket."

Not all that long ago I heard of talk about delivering network content through the power lines. Seriously.

Kind of reminds me about that Steve Wright joke: I put a humidifier and dehumidifier in a room, and let them battle it out.

Re:Almost Brilliant but who pays for it

[petermgreen]

the real problem is voltage conversion

dc rocks for long distance transmission especially if that transmission has to be underground or undersea (inductance and capacitance issues basically go away if you use DC) but converting between AC and DC and between different voltages of DC is relatively inefficiant (DC voltage conversion was pretty much impossible before the introduction of the SMPSU).

Quite disappointed!

[mattr]

I was quite disconcerted to see that in fact the computer is not run entirely on the Perl Object Environment (POE). It would be the next step after the perl window manager somebody built. Blerg.

Re:Wireless?

[stonecypher]

Tesla's electrical transmitter towers aren't, unfortunately, practical past a few hundred feet, given that air is one of the best electrical insulators known (which is why it takes so large of a charge for a lightning bolt to arc to ground.) There's a reason that Edison won, despite the phenomenally higher cost of wire-based electrifaction; remember that Tesla had as much fame and popularity at the time, as well as the backing of major industrialists such as George Westinghouse and financiers such as Mellon and Carnegie.