Slashdot Mirror
UK to lnstall Wireless Mics on London Streets
johnthorensen writes "Looks like parts of London may be seeing wireless microphones on the street sometime soon. At this point, they're looking to use them to monitor noise ordinance violations - if you call about a repeated disturbance, they'll mount one by your place to monitor noise levels for the next several days. The article also notes that they intend to locate them more permanently outside bars and nightclubs. The microphones apparently communicate via wireless Internet connection, although no real details are given as to the nature of said connection. Are London residents getting the boiled frog treatment?"
"Boiled frog treatment"? Huh? Elaborate please, O limey one.
Sounds familiar to the concept in Deus Ex - the use of microphones by police forces to pick up (gun) noise...albeit for slightly different purposes (noise management).
How/where will these be located to avoid tampering?
I don't think its coincidence that George Orwell was British.
The more you know, the less you understand.
This is actually a really good idea. I've had the neighbors call the cops on me for noise violations several times. Nevermind the facts that I had a noise meter monitoring my speakers from a meter away the whole time and I not once broke the law. A little bit of objectivity could keep people from being screwed by prudish neighbors. As long as these microphones are technologically unsuitable to record conversations, this is a great thing.
After all, I am strangely colored.
Westminster council is implementing a wireless network to cover the area, see http://www.etmag.com/publication/magazine/2004-10/ 62.htm.
Noise pollution in cities is considered a major problem in the UK and measures such as this to prevent a minority making life unpleasant for a majority should be welcomed.
If you want loud noise, just wear a pair of headphones...
... and to be honest I can't get too worked up about this.
Public streets are just that: public. You don't get to veto who's watching and/or listening to you. If you want to discuss insurrection or your new water-fuelled-engine invention, go somewhere private.
Besides, excessive noise is an infringement of privacy too, in my opinion.
" if you call about a repeated disturbance, they'll mount one by your place to monitor noise levels for the next several days." Saturday night: End all party (the forth this month to end all) file a noise complaint Monday: Technition installs mic (if your LUCKY, and he installs it on the first workday) Tues-Thurs: nothing recorded on mic Compaired to: Saturday: Police come to noise complaint, tell people to shut it off and go home *note* im a firm beliver in just going over there myself before anyone gets called, its faster than waiting for the police anyway you look at it.
Like the saying goes, never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes. -Pyrotic
The first thing this reminded me of was the book 1984, where people are worried that hidden microphones may pick up their anti Big Brother conversations.
Having said that, it might be okay as long as actual sounds are not transmitted, but rather just sound levels (properly encrypted of course). Somehow, I don't have much faith though.
The UK is slowly moving towards a survalance nation. We have more CCTV per person than anyone else in Europe. Of course, violent crime is actually on the rise.
Frankly, I don't really care if my attacker was caught on CCTV, or even brought to justice. What I care about is not being mugged in the first place, feeling safe and protecting my privacy.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I'm not crying slippery slope, but at what point do you stand up and say this isn't right?
The more you know, the less you understand.
the sky didn't fall!
neither did crime
At least they're not touting this as an anti-terrorist measure. I guess that's no longer as credible as it used to be.
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
Orwell was right! He was only 21 years ahead of his time.
In need of reliable and affordable server monitoring?
One big question about the deployment of such mics: how will they interoperate with other WiFi networks?
If they will interfere or occupy the wrong frequency bands it's a big help to those who have all to fear from the technical achievements of WiFi.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Move away. I just did.
Less noise, less pollution, less traffic, less crime, less intrusion, less stress, less expense.
London is a great place to visit for a week. It's a horrible place to live and work, though it's still better than Manchester.
Deleted
There are many boroughs in London, Westminster is but one of them.
Deleted
and I have to disagree.
There's a difference between between "public" as in "you can't complain if someone stands next to you in the tube and overhears all of your conversation" and "public" as in "you never know who's watching and listening". London is already tightly packed with CCTV (although I have to object to the "CC". I fail to see what's so closed circuit about wireless cameras that present their pictures on the net, like this one, very close to where I live). Nevertheless, whenever the police publishes pictures of an "unidentified" mugger, you see that it is actually impossible to identify an unknown person on the pictures. What is possible, however, is to follow certain persons around town as they do their daily work.
To cut it short: London is already quite Orwellian (the Royal Opera is right...). We definitely do not need microphones eavesdropping on us. I can already see the first headlines in the metro: "Drug dealers arrested after being overheard by micros!" And everyone will cheer...
Don't know about you, but where I live every single speed camera has been subject to repeat arson by people throwing burning tires over them. So, the speed camera authority responded by creating speed cameras which couldn't have said burning rubber thrown on to them.
However, they severly underestimated the talent and intelligence of drunken men - I swear one night I saw a group of people standing on their shoulders, rotating a speed camera around 90 degrees. Nobody in the police actually realised it had been rotated for a few months...
I take it you're not British. Might I ask if you have any experience living in Britain, or if you're just basing your opinion on second-hand information?
microphones seem to be a good idea in detecting when the noise becomes too loud, but how does a microphone tell you whos making all the noise?
Ah, George Orwell was British! A coincidence? I think not!!!
... a coincidence? Ah, that's what you think!
James Joyce was Irish
Are they asking for drunken serenades?
Because it sure seems like they are.
I moved to Britain 8 months ago to study physics. While I must say that the universities are rightly among the best in the world, I and many others feel exactly like the parent poster about Britain, it sucks!
This got to be a Troll...
The UK government hasnt got around to setting retail prices quite yet...
and they havent introduced anything as oppresive as the Patriot Act either.
Law enforcement by the judicial system is very weak in the UK. This is more likely to catch the person throwing a once off birthday party than the neighbor across the street with 20 ASBO's against him already, who drives around in a car with false number plates and lives in a council flat on Disability Living Allowance.
Surur
Information is the location of things. Computation is moving things around.
is not only watching you ; from now on he can hear you also .
The Dutch will inherit the earth. If not, we'll settle for a bit of ocean. Beta delenda est!
While Londoners are using Microphones to handle noise violations, the people of East Palo Alto, California used them for accoustic analysis to determine from which direction the bullets were flying in a particularly gang-ridden neighborhood, and it was reported to have worked. Very few residents complained about their rights being violated.
Now, on the other hand, if London started recording conversations, that would make for a more interesting - and invasive- use. At that point we're heading right for 1984. Of course, London already uses cameras in public places for use as evidence, so their networking infrastructure is already there...
My first thoughts of this were "how secure would it be?" Would be a crackers dream land if they were high-quality... I can't really warm up to the idea of microphones on the street, regardless of their technical capability; there's just something a little chilling about having people listening to make sure you don't make too much noise.
Anonymous Coward
You bet we are!
All I can do is hope these new systems arn't being abused, the data protection applies to CCTV etc as well as personal records so you have a legal right to see the data they have on you and know what it will be used for. The congestion charge ring for example (Ken Shitface Livingstone) scans every license plate entering the city as basically a toll gate, using it for any other purpose would be illegal IMHO so if they get found using it for anything else I hope some prision time is in order, fortunately the camera network is designed only for cars, the high-res cameras are fixed at the point in the road where the number will go past so they cant just add software to automatically track faces, it would have to be done with another CCTV camera.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
ok, judging by the response to the article your a bunch of geeks who dont have a clue about how the rest of the world works. Our government isnt trying to invade our privacy, they are trying to uphold the rights of other people in our nation. Personally i think its a good thing, violent crimes are on the decrease, I actually feel safe to some degree whilst walking through a cctv area. Note i said cctv AREA. its not like they have cameras on every street, just the trouble spots. Maybe if you stopped being worried about your independance and freedom, and started being more considerate, you'd have less violent crimes. but, no, you want to be able to shoot people. you want to be able to run a guy down and drive away with nothing to take down your number plate. you want to be kept up all night by your teenage neighbours kickin' tunes. maybe if you left your own little world once in a while you'd realise america's freedom isnt all its made out to be. end of rant.
It said lnstall instead of Install...
It all depends if the microphones are linked to equipment which is simply measuring the volume, or recording the actual sounds.
Having lived in a flat very close to a nightclub, I'd support measures to fight their noise nuisance. If you were plotting to overthrow the government, you'd have no worries about the microphone picking it up - the relentless thud, thud, thud would drown you out.
I'm scared of numbers that can't be written as a fraction. It's an irrational fear.
You've never heard the expression "put up or shut up"?
That attitude is exactly why things are so bad in the UK.
Is a 'noise violation' the decibel level of the sound, or the character of the sound?
Cue fart jokes here.
and these people have PLAYSTATION TWO's in their cells
;-)
That should be punishment enough.
But seriously, I saw a doco of a guy in some scandinavian country in "prison" for murder. His "prison cell" was an almost-zero-security stylish modern self-contained flat with comfy furniture, tv, PS2, microwave, etc. A better lifestyle than many brits have indeed. It appears that US typical hell-hole type prisons with daily beatings and prison-sex are not fundamental to a prisoner's rehabilitation and reformation.
Oh fer crying out loud. We're already the most watched country on the planet, now they want to listen to everything too?!
It saddens me that us british (on the whole) are content to sit idly by and allow such infringements on our freedom.
Think about all those who died in the past two world wars to protect it; we should value our freedom highly.
Of course, knowing people (as a gestalt entity) nothing will be done until the time comes when it costs lives to regain said freedom.
I wait now for the first life taken by such invasions; the first poorly secured ID card to be forged, the first nun to be jailed due to an error in finger print recognition (and of course the system is never wrong is it).
*places tinfoil hat firmly on head*
I am a Brit. I have lived in several other countries. I have visited many, many more.
The previous poster is exactly right. Most english people do not care about things like this. From ID cards to constant surveillence, most people are not even aware that they exist.
Should they be aware then the standard response is "well, nothing you can do about it is there?"
Govt gone to war against Iraq? "well, nothing you can do about it is there?"
Civil liberties being removed? "well, nothing you can do about it is there?"
Schools and hospitals taken over by unaccountable (by law!) private enterprise? "well, nothing you can do about it is there?"
People criminalised for walking about naked in their own homes? (Seriously, some of the recent ASBOs are really stupid) "well, nothing you can do about it is there?"
Women gang-raped by Army officers? "well, nothing you can do about it is there?"
Until, finally, we'll have immigrants and 'possible terrorists' being sent for 'showers' and 'relocation' and STILL the response will come: "well, nothing you can do about it is there?"
I am living in a country of ignorant, apathetic asshats. Frankly, the UK deserves everything it gets. I beg all terrorists reading this post to come and detonate a series of massive dirty bombs up and down the country - put the world and all english people out of our misery. Please. We're too stupid to be allowed to live.
This seems a little odd to me. As far as I'm aware, the British government isn't any more inefficient and bureaucratic than your average democracy. The higher taxes go to pay for services that people in the UK seem to want, like the NHS. The US has lower taxes because it has less public services.
The UK also spends proportionally much less than the US when it comes to military spending. Even though I'd pay less taxes in US, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable knowing that a far larger proportion of my money would go into the military.
We understand that more than half of your $6.50 is tax anyways.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
Petrol is highly taxed in the UK for similar reasons to the high cigarette taxes - to discourage people from unnecessary driving which pollutes and congests and requires covering large amounts of our available land area in tarmac.
The reason no party campaigns on the issue is that prices have to keep going up, and it's a damn good thing that they will. Any politician promising to cut those taxes will get excoriated in the press by environmentalists, it's not worth picking up the votes from the motorheads.
Right, they monitor your actions in public with no court order or warrant neccessary. You have lots more freedom in the UK than I could ever dream of in my country.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
...from the very start, Americans have been brainwashed/duped by fancy words. In the 1770s, most working-class Americans did not even WANT a revolution to get away from England. THey mistrusted and hated the American elite just as much as the Brits. And rightfully so.
But the American elite went on a propaganda spree in order to sell them on the Revolution. Of course for elites like jefferson, washington, Madison, Morris, et al., the Revolution was really all about making more money for themselves.
So Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. And they used that bit of flowery "freedom, brotherhood, and liberty" language the help sell the Revolution. Of course there were other things that helped sell the revolution, like the Brit soldiers coming in and taking up all the jobs, that and some other things. But Jefferson's propaganda set up the Bait and Switch.
So, then once the elites had some grassroots support, they got down to the dirty work of writing a Constitution that was designed to make sure that the lower classes really had little power. The American working classes fell for the Bait and Switch, all right. They bought into the whole freedon-liberty propaganda thing. THe Constitution, as James Madison, the principal writer of the Constitution wrote, was meant to establish a framework from within which the elite could hardly be reached by the masses. And Madison sure did do a good job of creating a government that was very hard to change. He sure did a good job "protecting the opulent minority from the majority," as he put it himself.
The working people had thought they were going to get a fair and representative govt, with just an assembly that mathematically represented the people and whose members could be easily voted out. But instead they got a Constitutional framework that had a president and a Senate elected for long periods of time, and no one was subject to recall.
Whoa, did that piss off the people. THey were a lot more politically aware back then then we are now. They knew that with a president and a senate, elected for such long periods of time, and not even directly elected, that the working people would have little chance of getting true representations. Once the workers got wind of how the actual constitution was goign to differ from what the Declaration of Independence promised, they tried to rush the buildings where the elite were gathering in order to set up the USA as a republic; they tried to kill them several times. But the elites had too many bodyguards.
So, as a result, the elites got what they wanted.
Americans just do not have any idea of a government that actually is on their side. THe American Constitution set up a government that is easily manipulable by the elite. Of course, almost every other western nation is now run much more for the people and less for the elite than is America. So this is one reason why American slashdotters moan and groan about this mikes in the UK. Of course, they don't even know why this thread is present in their culture. That history is not taught in the schools (surprise surprise!)
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Hell, directional speakers might be really neat here, until they ban the use.
"When noise makers are outlawed, only outlaws... &etc."
I forget what 8 was for.
Read up on the times. "Mere kilometers" means a lot, at certain {time, place} points. If you believe they don't, well, the US has lots of people in a place called Texas born "mere kilometers" from Mexico. And don't get me started on Ohio... Damn Canadian subversives...
I forget what 8 was for.
I was exploring a disused cinema in Brisbane, Australia, in the UBD.
I made my way to the rooftop, and on an awning pointing toward the street was a large protective case, padlocked and covered with council stencils, with a large mic pointing toward the street, and an antenna.
The stickers on the case drew mention to ambient noise monitoring..
I guess the UK isn't the first place to have this/
You're right, it would be better if we followed the Southern middle-classes and voted Tory. Bring back Michael Scumbag Howard, just what we need. Put Widdecome in charge of policies in drugs and personal freedoms.
The Tories would be a massive step back for Britain. Anti-rights, anti-drugs, pro-religion, anti-Europe, run by the rich for the rich. No thanks. The Tories are dead and buried. On Thursday they didn't gain any votes, Labour lost them.
I live in the UK, and it's no joke.
The police here don't actually do hard stuff like going after burglars and muggers, it's too much work and it's not sexy and it may be dangerous to them.
Instead, they spend their time hanging out on motorways fining speeders despite modern cars running like on rails at our speed limit.
And of course, CCTV cameras are going up everywhere so that they can do even more of a bugger all. And now microphones.
The whole system of "law enforcement" here sucks, because it does nothing to stop hard crime. The police end up monitoring the ordinary fairly civil person instead, while the real criminal is totally unhindered.
1984 is definitely relevant.
Wow, I must have missed the box on the polling form that said "Reasons for voting".
We choose to pay more taxes
We don't choose to pay more taxes, the taxes are forced on us. How many people do you think like the petrol taxes and other such regressive taxes? How many people choose council tax which is not even based on ability to pay? And even when you do pay the binmen rarely bother emptying your bins, the streets are full of traffic wardens giving people tickets because the council want even more money to waste.
In Britain we seem to have the worst of capitalism and socialism. We pay extortionate taxes, but the services are awful. Hospitals are filthy, inefficient, beaurocratic and disease-ridden, schools are disorderly and full of crime and drugs, roads are falling apart despite motorists being taxed to the hilt, the police care more about the criminals than the victims. Most people don't even get dentists, yet have to pay taxes towards them for other people.
Well, the Darth US did a good job to learn from their evil ancestors... Dunno if you sum everything up which country has been worse over time, the US or Britain, I think the crown if you just count the last 50 years definitely goes to the US (but you have to count in the crimes which have been done by US corporations under the hood)
(Stud to hot chicks) "Hey good lookin' We'll be back to pick you up later!" (family gathering) "We got a mighty convoy 'cross the USA! Convoy!"
(announcer) Just tune your radio to an unused AM station and speak into the lamp post. Fun for all ages!
Seriously, isn't New York and LA already using something like this for detecting gunshots?
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
Less government taxes mean less public services. The NHS sucks up a lot of tax-payer money, and the general feeling in the UK seems to be that people would rather have better healthcare than lower taxes (up to a point).
Likewise, I don't really have too much of a problem with the TV Licensing system, so long as the BBC keep up the good work. The idea of putting all past content online is something that appeals greatly to me. Especially since they were talking about opening up old content to be remixed by modern day artists. So long as the BBC keep their promises, the licensing fee seems worth it.
As for fuel taxes, don't you think that high fuel prices increase demand for efficient engines? I suspect the average car found in the UK has a greater efficiency than the average car found in the US.
Then they have to start the empire all over... wait, that is not possible anymore. The empire was built upon ruthelessness and a defintive military advantage.
How many of you have things that need to be discussed in the street, at a level loud enough to be picked up by these microphones that you would not want the government listening to? (Assuming they even recorded sounds, rather than levels). If you have the need to discuss somethings private - you don't do it in a public place or in a voice loud enough to hear outside your house. Take your IP to your meeting rooms at work - not to the street outside your house. As a London resident, I very much welcome this - it will stop my neighbour who puts speakers on her doorstep all through the summer and plays insanely loud music till 3-4am. Tim
tim
Yes. Yes I do. I guess its just not a reasonable expectation.
rewriting history since 2109
It's the damn bird watchers. Im telling you
An expert is someone that knows more and more about less and less.
Well the tax on goods is lower european average, the funny thing is, that Britain still is much more expensive with many goods being calculated from one Euro towards one Pound. But that has less to do with the government, more with simple greed by the vendors and the stupidity of the british people of not using the only really good thing of the EU, the free trade for goods by starting to import the more expensive stuff themselves from France or Holland. (Probably the language barrier is the cause, while many people in continental Europe at least speak two languages very well and a third at least to some basic knowledge most british never got out of their we only speak english high horse)
If this system is going to be used for monitoring noise levels, then they're probably going to install some kind of decibel-meters, not actual microphones which could be used for listening to people.
So perhaps all this paranoia is quite unwarranted.
I wanna get those directional speakers some guy invented a short while ago. You could have lotsa fun with those and these mics.
rewriting history since 2109
The license fee for the BBC is a small price to pay for high quality programming (including news, web content and radio) and it's advert-free.
Surely it depends on what's being offered and what it costs. For instance, if the BBC were to put all of its archived content online, DRM free, put up podcasts of all its media shows (in ogg ;) and declared that anyone in Britain could rip'n'mix old BBC shows together without restriction, then I'd be all for it.
:). Mmm... Copyleft.
Imagine being able to edit and compile new shows from old BBC material
The BBC is nice because commercial interests isn't the primary concern. This in turn raises the bar for commercial media in the UK. If the BBC seems to be faltering from its task, then I'd be the first to complain. But if it manages to pull off what it has promised, I'm all for it.
It ain't offtopic. Slashdot's moderation system is broken and is being abused by the rightwingers and so-called "libertarians".
eat shiat and bark at the moon
What? No, the government of every modern economy these days (including the US) "interferes" (as you put it) to control the price of goods in shops by tweaking interest rates and various other factors (including levies on petrol/gas but also e.g. a.o. exchange rate controls by buying/selling other currencies) in order to do ONE THING: control inflation. It is now widely accepted that this is a very good idea, and surprise, it is happening every day in most countries. By tweaking interest rate vs. inflation, and e.g. exchange rates, governments can "steer" the economy in different directions, providing some loose control over borrowing vs. saving behaviour, investment, imports/exports, manufacturing, trade deficits etc.
"conceivably lead to an Orwellian society?"
Just because you stick your head in the sand doesnt mean the rest of us want too.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Its so funny to watch you screwballs vote Labor, then complain about what happens afterwards.
Think about your taxes.
Think about the snooping
In short, you have what you asked for.
....... if your car is stolen, and the congestion charge system knows exactly where it is, you really really don't want to be told, and if somebody does get your car back for you then you want them to go to prison. What an odd chap.
But anyways. Coming soon is mainstream Optical Fibre Microphone technology [example link only]. The most sensitive yet made,yada yada. It works by the expansion and contraction of fiber optics. The ones I've heard about are best looped around large objects. Around the perimeter of a large evil skyscraper would be perfect. With signal processing, you get a very detailed audio monitor which can trilocate all occuring conversations concurrently within its very large range.
So what will stop non-governmental bodies erecting such microphones? I think the best way would be the government trying this sort of ploy, stirring up public interest, and then the government legislating that this sort of surveillance is illegal. Currently as far as I understand it, private bodies can video the public environs as much as they like. The new possibilities of these microphones need to be addressed.
[% slash_sig_val.text %]
unlike the liberation of 2 eastern countries lately, please just stfu
I recall reading some research on the video camera london installed on its streets. They found that operators/human monitors of the feeds spent most of their time focused on the sexual activities of people on the street. They also found some of the people on the street, playing to the cameras.
Well I guess London is getting into the amature candid porn business....
"The article also notes that they intend to locate them more permanently outside bars and nightclubs."
Now, these microphones will be outside of nightclubs. If there is a DJ inside playing copyrighted songs, they are going to pick up the songs and broadcast them? (wifi?)
If there is a live band, the mic will pick up their performance and broadcast it? So, can the general public put similar mics wherever they want in a public space and do the same thing?
Why would they need mics for the stated purpose anyway? Wouldn't sound level meters do the trick just as well without the privacy issues?
all the best,
drew
(dnrtajts)
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
I dunno -- I always thought of the French as the ones getting the frogs...
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
Where I live, Indiana, they recently began an sign campaign for our mandatory seatbelt law - "A Law we can live with." Sure its an impingement on my basic freedom to do to my own body what I wish, but its so minor that I won't bother to protest it. This IS the boiling frog - since the founding of America, its citizens have been slowly succombing to the raping of their fundamental freedoms with this very attitude. If you beLIEve that these mikes won't be abused by those in power, you live in a fantasy world. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The end.
Wow, you want to send people to a "hell hole prison" for playing thier music too loud? That ought to learn-em huh, but since (as you say) they will reoffend, perhaps we should poke sharp sticks in thier ears and smash thier stereos instead. Oh fuck it, why not shoot-em all and let God sort it out, (starting with self-righteous morons like you).
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Bay Bridge, San Francisco. We were in a car about to cross the bridge, when the ground beneath us started to shake. It wasn't a quake. It was the MF in the car behind us playing thumpa-thumpa-thumpa noise into a massive bass speaker system.
Every time I hear that noise, I think of MILAN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MILAN
My hyperlinks aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
There is however a reasonable expectation not everyone will be watched every step.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Given we have more survalance camera's per head than other countries, seemes logical next orwellian step to make :/
The thump-thump is the worst of all, I find it goes slightly faster than my heartbeat when lying in bed and slightly slower that the pounding of my fist on thier face when visit a second time at 3am.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Ah yes, the British version of "Love it or leave it!". What are you, Ruth Kelly?
Searchability. I do not worry that the people will remember in 2 years, while the camera can. Thus, if open-source advocates have been labeled "terrorists", the people will not recall that I was wearing a shirt with Tux on it two years ago, but the police can do an image search on all their cameras for Tux to imprison all the "OSS terrorists" (more timely is searching for pro-Muslim speech/shirts).
Bumper sticker seen recently that I enjoyed: "I love my country but fear my government".
... and that's the story of how King George (Washington) the First became our first beloved Monarch. Which brings us to King George (W. Bush) the Third, leading us on our holy crusade to enlighten the savages in the sandy wastelands of the Middle East.
If you liked this, you may enjoy other 'Alternate History' fiction, such as the 'Alvin Maker' series by Orson Scott Card, or 'Roma Eterna' by Robert Silverberg.
Reading is Fundemental!
hell, people here in Washington (the state) voted against taxing themselves for the 'Medic One' program. AKA public ambulances. Thankfully, the legislature got it reworded, and back on the next ballot before service stopped.
You wanna dispute the facts? Dispute them.
I however refer interested readers to the following books:
Howard Zinn's _A People's History of the USA_ (probably available on p2p)
Jerry Fresia's _Toward An American Revolution_ available online here.
Both authors have PHDs (History and Political Science).
Now put up or shut up.....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
In 1984, the surveillence cameras and microphones in public places caused almost as much stress as the ones in apartments and offices. They provided the claustrophobic atmosphere because they always knew exactly where you were no matter where you went. If you just removed the private surveillance, they could still always know exactly where you are and who you are with, and they would have a pretty good idea of exactly what you're doing.
Whether you can comprehend it or not, people do have an expection of privacy in public places: they expect that their movements and activities aren't being constantly recorded and logged into a database. If you can't see the difference between a few private eyes or government agents tracking a handful of select suspects at great effort and expense vs. a mass-spying system that tracks and records every activity by every person all the time, then you're a pretty dim bulb.
There are already devices which just monitor the volume of noise, rather than the actual sounds. EHOs in Portsmouth have been deploying these for years on the back of noise nuisance complaints, simply to gather evidence. All they log is the noise levels, so there's no privacy concern.
"The article also notes that they intend to locate them more permanently outside bars and nightclubs."
Guy1: Dude, did you get that girls phone number?
Guy2: No, she totally blew me off.
Guy1: What do you mean?
Guy2: Well I heard her telling that other guy her phone number.
Guy1: Do you want me to hack the wireless mike and get her number for you?
Guy2: Oh yeah! Great idea!
-- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD
If the authorities are going to use microphones to determine sound violations, they will be using microphones that meet IEC/ANSI standards for sound measurement equipment. That means mics from companies like Bruel and Kjaer, GRAS, Norsonic, ACO Pacific, Larson Davis, etc.
These mics will definitely measure down to 20 Hz (most "boom car" bass is around 50 or 60 Hz), and some will even get down to 1 Hz.
By the way, classical music generally has much lower bass than hip-hop/r&b/pop/dance music. Seriously.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
the government of every modern economy these days (including the US) "interferes" (as you put it) to control the price of goods in shops by tweaking interest rates
No, interest rates are set by the Bank of England, which is independent of the government. Other than that, you're right.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
the dreaded VAT
Don't you guys have sales tax? Isn't that essentially the same thing? (In fact, at least with VAT it's included in the sticker price, and some items are exempt (food, (children's?) clothes, etc)
the insane TV Licensing system
It's about £10/month (roughly $16); I spend more than that each month on beer, and I'm hardly a heavy drinker. It really is insignificant for all but the poorest people (and they all have Sky or cable as well anyway!)
sky-high petrol taxes
Well, I own a car and I support high petrol taxes, congestion charges and anything else that serves to reduce car usage. I may well be in a minority on this one, though.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
You know, if I'm not going to save a truly significant amount of money, I really can't be arsed to go to all the trouble of importing stuff. It's not stupidity, it's laziness and lack of thought (in my case at least)
most british never got out of their we only speak english high horse
Culturally there isn't the emphasis on being able to speak more than one language that there is in most of continental Europe. Part of that is to do with the aforementioned Little England attitude, but it's also partly because even going to France is still mostly seen as a major trip. That's changing slowly, but for hundreds of years it was difficult, expensive, time-consuming and even dangerous to travel even just as far as France. That's no excuse now, but it does build up a sort of collective unconscious attitude that you don't get in countries with direct land connections to other countries.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Pure Democracy is a terrible system of government, it's basically glorified mob rule, tending towards the opression of minorities. Also, having a public vote on every single matter would be an enormous waste of time and resources.
A representative government allows the people to select people to do that work for them; while an overriding constitution prevents them from abusing their power excessivly.
A consistant head of state, such as a President is needed for diplomatic reasons, and as a finalizer of decisions. Imagine having to send a congressional sub-commitee to Russia to discuss nuclear weapons; or having congressmen decide which of the required 51% signs a bill into law first or last? (I suppose having the house/senate physically sign bill might help some things)
The Diplomatic head of state also needs to be in command of the Military, otherwise when negotiating with other heads of state, he could never be sure that his army will back him up. (The only thing worse than a civilian in charge of the military, would be the military in charge of itself.)
You also can't change President willy-nilly, nor can he be subject to recall at a whim; at that rate we would be having a presidental election each month; and nothing would get done because any sitting president would be to busy trying to hang on to actually accomplish anything. Imagine the recent election problems occuring every single month! recount the recall! recall the recount!
Yes, origionally only Free Land Owning Males Over 21 could vote; it was the best comprimise they could accomplish; if you think about those days, there was no internet, no TV, and in fact, very little literacy. Your employer and landlord was a White Male Landowner; just being seen with a revolutionary terrorist could get you fired. and no welfare or unemployment; but there is Debtors Prisons. They were in charge, and they wouldn't give up their power without a fight.
The 'Founding Fathers' needed the support of the Landowners because they could control everyone else; this revolution was against English Rule, not the landowners, anglo-saxons, or freedom from slavery; "No taxation without representation"; hell, if England had granted the colonys seats in the House of Commons, maybe we'd be calling 'Truck's 'Lorry's.
But, the english industrialists didn't want to compete with cheap american/other goods, and so they wanted extra taxes, such that even if tea was shipped directly from India to America, it would still have British taxes applied. -- Kinda how americans today don't want to have to compete with cheap international outsourced labor.
In any case, how we got here is unimportant. I bet most people don't give a damn if Canadian wheat is 10 cents a ton cheaper than American wheat; or even if their car is made in the US. We elect people who we think a) has a chance of winning, and b) we don't disagree with to badly. Usually, eighter the Democrats or Republicans manage to feild such candidates so one or the other gets elected, and proceeds to make some of these boring decisions for us. We lose some resources to corruption, But it's more than made up for by someone doing that work for us.
Sometimes even the majority disagrees with a decision they made, but you're welcome to run for office yourself, if you think you can do a better job.
Around 1:21 presidents have been killed in office; while around 1:100 US soliders sent to Iraq have been killed (can't find exact numbers), who's more in harms way? Who's house did the 9/11 attackers try to hit? (hint: it's white)
I believe that Bush lied to the american people in order to start a war in Iraq; but I guess the majority of adult, non-felon americans are ok with that, so off to war we go. I think that's pretty stupid, but at least I'm free to express that I think it's stupid, and try to convince others that it's wrong, without having to resort to violence to impose the will of the minority on the majority.
...and to be honest I can't get too worked up about cookies and Flash information caching.
:/
Public websites are just that: public. You don't get to veto who's tracking and/or spamming you. If you want to discuss insurrection or your new Gecko-powered browser, go somewhere private.
Beside, a lack of torrents is an infringement of piracy too, in my opinion.
When you go out, just bring a radio tuned to static/whitenoise. Since it covers a lot of frequencies in the vocal range, it should cover up conversations quite nicely.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
neither did crime
That was pretty damned witty.
If aspiration is a virtue, achievement cannot be a vice.
Given that technology always reliable, what they should do is pass a law that makes it illegal to make noise. If you make noise, a police car will suddenly screech to a halt, jumping the curb, and two police officers will jump out, grab you, and take you to some dungeon, where you will spend the rest of your life.
Wow, this whole big brother thing is out of control. The math doesn't add up.
Everyone has seemed to be getting along fine with the traffic cameras, including the ones that catch you running a red light. As long as the technology to assist the constabulary is marked as such, and advertised, such as would be the case with a cop car sitting on the corner, there is no 'big brother' conspiratorial effort to remove your rights in any form.
Using technology to reduce redundant efforts by the police so that they can be doing something that is more important than noise abatement is a damn good thing. Its no different than the window watcher down the street using her video camera to record a bunch of drunks raising hell on the corner and giving the cops the tape.
The people that might have issue with this probably would have more of an issue if there were cops on every corner just so they could handle things like simple noise abatement and jay walking. It really does come down to the fact that if you are doing nothing wrong, no harm no foul.
Just the same, such technology should not be used without oversight. Yes, sure, a policeman on the corner doesn't have to report all that they hear, but technology will hear more, and record more, and like was mentioned, if the system is hacked, it becomes a tool for the bad guys too!
Not to mention those here that will think the bad guys are the ones putting the mics on the street. I still have this general problem with the balance of evidence on conspiracies. If big brother is so effective at spying, why do we still have spam? Why haven't they caught Bin Laden? Why is there still kiddie porn on the Internet? and a whole long list of things that they should have gotten rid of if big brother really was effective in this respect. Witness one dying 'carnivore' program.
I can just see some poor developer now,
MANAGER: "Can you build a database like that?"
DEV: "Huh?"
MANAGER: "but... but..."
DEV: "You need to put the crack pipe down! There is no way that I can take $65k/year and build a database to log and analyze 1700 hours of voice / noise audio per day!"
MANAGER: "but we've got Linux.... and there is that 'spintronics' thing?"
DEV: silence.....
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
I would call Iraq hardly a libaration and hardly a victory of the brits...
This is actualy false. If you put a frog in water and slowly turn up the heat, the frog will eventualy jump out.
On the other hand, if you actualy do throw a frog in boiling water, they will die instantly.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I take it the signs are still labled in MPH then?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
What kind of motor offenses land you in Jail? Here in Iowa (in the US) only Drunk Driving will put you in jail, and usualy only for multiple offenses.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Man, they pumped your ass so full of propaganda that you squeak when you walk, and now the shit's coming out your ears and leaking onto your keyboard (and onto Slashdot!).
First, there have NEVER been "mob rule" (ooohhh!!!) in any western nation. THe rich make sure of that. But if we did have "mob rule", we might have horrors like we have in countries where the percent of citizen voting is really high, like say Denmark or Australia, where they have horrors like "Free College" (ewwww!) and "universal healthcare"! (please save us!)
eat shiat and bark at the moon
WRT council tax at least, the ~77% of the electorate who didn't vote liberal, since the liberals had pledged to abolish it.
I am trolling
Yeah, I'm sure this will work out just fine... until the first joker locates one of these mics and commissions a punk rock band to sing/shout "Anarchy In The UK" into it 24/7.
UTF-8: There and Back Again
Personally, I think the burden should be placed on the individual demanding to hear a very low level of outside noise to properly soundproof his/her dwelling to achieve the desired effect.
If a "gated community" meets their needs, teriffic. Move there then!
I know myself, I live in a house next to a neighbor who happens to enjoy loud music, and also enjoys repairing old stereo equipment and speakers that other people threw away. He's got quite a collection of recent and vintage speakers, amps, receivers, tape decks, and so forth -- all of which he successfully repaired with no formal electronics knowledge. (He simply takes them apart carefully looking for burnt spots on the boards, and matches up the burnt parts with identical replacements from Radio Shack or whatever, and solders them back in.)
Sure, once in a while, I might be a little annoyed that I hear his stereo cranked up loud enough so I can tell what he's listening to from my own bedroom at night. But my solution is simply to turn on some music of my own that I'd prefer to listen to, and drown his out. Problem solved.
I'm actually really happy I have this type of neighbor, rather than the nit-picky tattle-tale types who dial 911 as soon as they hear your TV set or stereo in any way, shape or form. If I feel like throwing a party and it gets loud, at least I feel confident I won't have my neighbor ruining all the fun....
Everything has limits, but IMHO, the vast majority of noise complaints generated are from people expecting an unreasonable level of quiet, or simply those who enjoy getting someone else in trouble. The military aircraft that occasionally fly over my house are FAR more annoying, noise-wise, than my neighbor's music.
they specifically said noise levels, and no mention of recording was made. i have no reason, according to this article to beleive there's any privacy issue here.
when my family returned from england, they had some nightmare stories about the craziness that went on in the street outside their hotel at 3am, so i'm inclined to beleive there's a problem.
noise levels people, simple, cheap hardware that you DON'T need to pay some unlucky schmuck an hourly wage to sift through for illegalities.
But if you make $25-45K, like the majority of earners, you pay much much less. I have collected statements from people who have worked in both the european welfare AND the USA, and they say that the income taxes were similar in both countries for them....
That is why they call it a PROGRESSIVE tax....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
> Fuel is $6.5 a gal /ducks
Yes, but mainly because the $ is worth bugger all the at moment.
no taxation without representation!
And there was me thinking the election campaigns were run by politicians, not the voters. Maybe I'm not the only one not paying attention.
Do Brits have a fascination with the surveillance state or what? Do Brits think an Orwellian society will really make them better off? Did every Brit in parliament read "1984" and exclaim "hey, that's a bloody good idea!"?
Cameras up everybody's asses, mics on the walls, their main news source being the 1 government-run news agency (BBC)... if the U.S. weren't increasingly-similar (except w.r.t. news sources), I'd point and laugh...
Is Capitalism Good for the Poor?
What if out of 100 good mics 1 is located in key area where anti-Big Brothers gather? the network as it is designed will support it.
Even if the microphone's transmitter relays only the average sound power over a 5 second span? I'd love to see them try to reconstruct a conversation from that.
... because I'm too lazy to write up an actual opinion.
"The need to be observed and understood was once satisfied by God. Now we can implement the same functionality with data-mining algorithms."
- the Morpheus AI, "Deus Ex"
First the national ID cards scanned electronically for the US, now the microphones in London? Sounds like a few more steps are being taken to put us even closer to the world depicted in George Orwell's 1984 :o
The book just never leaves my mind.
-:sigma.SB
WARN
THERE IS ANOTHER SYSTEM
is it ironic that suddenly a dutch-auction of 1000 wireless mics ended up on eBay?
-- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!