BBC Trial of TV Show Download Service

Little Hamster writes "Five thousand households with broadband access has been selected for a trial of the BBC's new interactive Media Player. The trial will run from September to December, and users can 'time shift' and download selected BBC TV shows, radio programmes, regional programming and feature films. After seven days, the content will be automatically deleted from the user's computers. BBC will use this trial to iron out any outstanding rights issues and resolve teething difficulties with the technology ahead of a full launch next year." The BBC Press Office has a release about this as well.

Comments

TiVo?

[astro_ripper]

So this is like TiVo, except you have less control, and the content get's deleted after a week. And people want that?

Am I missing something?

Re:TiVo?

[maharg]

yes, you don't get a free TiVo with a UK tv license

Re:TiVo?

[taskforce]

Yes, you have access to the BBC's entire library Napster style, except it's *free* (As in TV Liscence, not beer.)

TiVo I believe you can only record shows that were on and watch them later, or am I missing something?

Re:TiVo?

[Stibidor]

They will if the price is right. For instance, from what I gather, this trial is free. I would try something like that for free. It may just be that the trial users get hooked and sign on for whatever the BBC has down the pipeline. And if the eventual public release costs less than TiVo, why not?

Re:TiVo?

[astro_ripper]

I guess that is a pretty good difference. I wasn't aware there was such as thing as a TV License.

Re:TiVo?

[/ASCII]

This is a test. Once this is mature, you will have all of these advantages:

Watch programs that are several years old, whenever you want, without having to record them. Watch three or more programs which all originally ran at the same time. Set up playlists of arbitrary programs, i.e. 'show me season two of Buffy'.

This is all assuming the BBC continues to try and develop it's offerings. I sure hope they do.

Re:TiVo?

[TheRaven64]

Although this does raise the question of why the content is deleted at all. Since the license payers have already paid for it to be produced, why can they not do whatever they want with the content?

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you have more control. You get to pick when it 'airs'.

Want to keep it longer than a week? Record it just like you would if it only aired at 8:00pm on Friday.

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that they may have a hard time deleting the content of computer literate people. Just how do they plan to stop people from recording the content onto a video camera plugged into the s-video port?

Re:TiVo?

[gowen]

From TFA

Unlike personal video recorders such as Sky Plus, viewers will not have to signal their chosen programmes in advance, allowing critically acclaimed shows to benefit retrospectively from a favourable review or word of mouth.

Wow. It's almost as if you didn't RTFA.

Re:TiVo?

[Stween]

All the other responses are entirely valid, and this does indeed look like a good and useful service.

It's worth pointing out though, that certainly in the UK, most 'people' won't know what a TiVo is. This is New and Exciting for them, and is perhaps a step up from Sky Plus.

Re:TiVo?

[Trigun]

They don't have to. They just have to make it easy enough that everybody uses it. After that, who cares about a 1% piracy rate.

Re:TiVo?

[astro_ripper]

Actually I did. But regardless, if it only saved programs for a week, you'd better hope a friend is on the ball enough to be able to recommend a good show and hope you have enough time to see it before the next episode airs in the next week, when your old copy will be gone. Much of my misunderstanding is in that I don't know much about cable in the UK. I ass-u-me-d that a TiVo like product existed there. "That's why you ask questions, that's how you learn *kicks Lenny*"

Re:TiVo?

[Technician]

So this is like TiVo, except you have less control

I would expect that. I have found many of the subscription services to be expensive on top of the rest of the insult.

As a case in point, one of the online radio stations permits you to subscribe to a NPR show "Car Talk". The subscription for one program on one channel is $12.95/month.

Why would anyone pay for one show on one channel for almost the price for XM radio? On XM you get many channels and all the programms on each channel. It just doesn't make sense the rates they try to charge for one program.

Something needs to be done about the prices for a-la-carte programming.

If the RIAA realy wanted to rake in the dough, they could have charged $0.05 per track in the heyday of Napster. I would be buying MP3's. Instead they drove the consumers away. For most people the prices are a showstopper.

At a nickel a track, it could have been paid by either the consumer or a sponsor for ad placement.

What's it cost the RIAA. They wouldn't have to press the CD's, put them in boxes, warehouse, and retail them. Instead they killed the golden goose.

I expect if you select 8 or 10 shows, your subscription for the a-la-carte TV could be as high as a regular cable bill if they get greedy and don't contain the retail price.

Re:TiVo?

[Goth Biker Babe]

Actually it's not a step up from Sky+.

Why would I want to convert digitally received signals to analogue only to digitise them again, before undigitising them to view them? It makes more sense to record the data straight from the transport stream.

I'm waiting for the DVD recorder with the freeview tuner built in.

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

And they implemented the special "delete after seven days" code just for the test and plan to remove it later? That sounds unlikely.

Re:TiVo?

[andrewbaldwin]

Where have you been?

The UK TV licence fee is regularly moaned about on Slashdot!

For info:

In the UK you need to have a licence for each address which has a TV receiver (you can have dozens of sets in the same house and one licence if you want*)

FWIW I'm happy to pay it for TV free from adverts disrupting the shows and with greater freedom to express ideas without worrying about business withdrawing advertising revenue. And don't worry about the 'tax' aspects meaning state direction - the Beeb regularly clashes with the government of the day - as both main parties seem to complain about it, it must be reasonably neutral. (BTW I have no connection with the BBC)

Others may dislike the licence on philosophical / political / dogmatic grounds (esp if they like watching the commercial channels more) - I accept that I have to subsidise, through higher prices, the advertising 'industry' and through them the other channels.

* actually there are some restrictions (eg multiple independent occupancy of a house split into flats) but the principle holds for most cases

Re:TiVo?

[jantheman]

You're right - it's called a TV Licence.

Re:TiVo?

[Richard_at_work]

Simple - they havent paid for it to be produced, theyve paid a TV license fee, which is entirely differnet. It just so happens that the BBC receives this money, but that does not automatically mean that the viewers have all rights to the productions.

Re:TiVo?

[Goth Biker Babe]

It's just another way of viewing TV. Rather like their radio service.

Tivo never really took off over here (UK) because the sort of people who would buy one are the sort of people who would have satelite or cable and something like a third of the population now receive digital television so all the EPG services and the like they already get. And the quality of an HQ VCR is good enough when compared to the loss in quality because you have to convert digital to analogue back to digital (when recording) and back to analogue (when playing back that recording).

Those who are interested in harddisk recorders have bought one of the PVRs/DVRs available here like the Sky+ box.

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does your TiVo record every single programme, on every single BBC channel and radio station? The website allows you to download any programme.

With your TiVo, if I tell you about a cool programme you didn't know about last night and you want to watch it you're fucked. With this you can just go and download it.

Re:TiVo?

[xtracto]

I guess I will be moded down OT...

I would mod you up but I do not have mod points, but I will post here because parent post is a good example of what I will point out.

Parent message is an interesting message which have some reples which have +4 ~ +5 score, I have a 3 score filter and as I was reading those messages some of them made nonsense, so I had to go to parent and read it.

I think it could be useful (and fair) if there was an automatic karma bonus for comments like this that did not had mod points but indeed it is interesting OR insightful...

In that way, after a comment has some good replies (+4 or +5 ) it could get +1 mod as Underrated or something.

Ill just ask mods, please, do not mod me down at least think that my comment it is -1 OT and +1 Interesting... so it is even.
=o)

Re:TiVo?

[Archibald Buttle]

My understanding was that you won't be able to ask for season two of Buffy, since it's not made by the BBC and so they don't own a license to offer it on-demand.

I could be wrong though.

Re:TiVo?

[w0lver]

Set up playlists of arbitrary programs, i.e. 'show me season two of Buffy'.

The problem is your example will never happen. The content owners which in Buffy's case is Twentieth Century Fox, will each have their own licening agreements. A given provider will have deals with 4 or 5 owners and another provider will a have different 4 or 5 with minor overlap.

Just like you cannot go to a single site and download all the music of your choice, there will not be a universal library of TV or movies unless the whole industry changes it approach. Which is very unlikly given attempts like the broadcast flag. You would think the Battlestar Galactic story would change minds...

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

for the same reason that you can't walk into a hospital and take home, say, the radiology department just because you pay taxes.

the production of the programs on bbc tv is written, produced, lit, filmed, acted directed etc etc. by professionals towards whom you pay your contribution, which allows you to view THEIR WORK without adverts clogging up the airtime and invading your head.

it's not like buying a book, or another physical product. the bbc provides information: without selling things to you; without propoganda ("we are not Britain, we are the BBC" -news editor during Falklands conflict, during which the BBC got right up Thatcher's nose); and (largely) without dumbed down celebrity claptrap reality tv (a couple of exceptions) and a license fee is a contribution towards "the most important cultural institution in Britain and, arguably, the World" (ref. Modern British History, M. Garnett and R. Weight ISBN 1-844-13104-1), it is NOT a product you own, and in this era of incessant Hollywood propoganda, commercial corporate power and tabloid newspapers it is not just a service in Britain, it is vital. £120 is cheap.

and no i don't work for them.

Re:TiVo?

[AaronGTurner]

It's useful if you didn't set your recording system to record the show and thus missed it.

If it is available for use outside the UK then it will be useful for people on holiday or ex-pats.

AFAIK it is also intended as a prelude to making some older content that is not being aired or being released on DVD available.

Re:TiVo?

[AaronGTurner]

There have been statements to the effect that the BBC will be making parts of its back catalogue available also, and this may be a first stab at the related technology. Suggestions were that the back catalogue items to be made available would be from the 1960s and 70s of things not generally worth making into full, commercial DVD releases. For historians of the 1960s and 70s access to past news programmes (plus the eventual advent of suitable search technology, which will be a while coming) would be useful.

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be nice if we could hand pick what to meta-mod to get rid of the ppl who can't seem to figure out how to use mod points appropriately where we can all read using the filter. Informative seems to be the most misunderstood moderation since the most uninformative comments get modded that way. Flamebait is way overabused based on bias of the moderator. I got mod points a grand total of one time myself.

Re:TiVo?

[kristopher]

Am I missing something here? Weren't all the shows BBC ever showed or will give users access to with this service on regular tv at some point or another?

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I did[RTFA]

Wow, I knew there were some dim lights on slashdot but this guy has the reading comprehension of a Los Angeles cockroach (which have slightly enhanced intelligence because of a highly compatible environment).

I mean this more as a joke than flame because I'm sure the OP could never understand this.

Re:TiVo?

[earthlingpink]

This seems to be a very progressive move from the BBC. I'd be careful when making a comparison to Tivo, however. A better comparison might be the system they currently have in place for their digital radio station, BBC7. All of its programmes are archived for a week, which has revolutionised the way I personally listen to radio. I don't need to be sitting next to the radio at 6.30pm any more; I know that the programmes I'm looking for will be available for a whole week. Some people on this board have commented that a week isn't long enough and that they want to keep content permanently. Please consider the fact that the BBC has an extremely large archive of excellent material. With the BBC7 weekly radio archive, I literally can't find enough time to listen to all the content they're pumping out. I wouldn't want to have access for longer, as I'd have an even larger backlog and proportionately less time doing other things! One thing that will be interesting to watch is whether they will choose to make this service available internationally on a subscription basis. Technically, the Royal Charter prevents them from providing the content overseas if it is paid for by the license fee. A subscription model should circumvent this problem and they did speculate a year or so ago that this might be a possibility. The other problem would be that of international rights holders: the Beeb is required to source about 20% of its programming from external production companies, which presumably would want to exercise their own controls over such distribution. But this may not be insurmountable: the BBC World Service seems able to broadcast music to the four corners of the world and has done for many years. Hats off to Auntie Beeb on this. I think they're in a position where they can show the broadcast industry how to embrace the internet.

Re:TiVo?

[Black.Shuck]

The UK already has a satellite service offered by Sky which does what TiVo does, called Sky Plus. With the hardware (a Sky+ box and a dish) you get a programme-guide (EPG), the ability to record two channels at once, and trick-play (pause/rewind/fastforward.)

What Sky+ can't do is record a show that you have missed, but it can do other stuff like automatically record series, set reminders and favorites, and it has a pay-per-view Box-Office service for movies which works like Blockbuster (except you don't have to leave the house.)

I can't really see that the BBC is now offering a competing service -- it works only on a PC -- but it does have that one extra feature at least, and it can be used by those without a Sky subscription.

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

They moan about a fee of £100 for a year for a load of channels free of advertising. Sky costs about half that much for a month of advert-ridden shit. I know which is better value.

Re:TiVo?

[brunogirin]

Not quite. You get the content from the Internet rather than recording it through your TiVo when it is run. It means you can access the content from any location, not just your living room. Useful if you're travelling or if, like me, you don't have a TV because I generally don't watch it but still want to see programs that have run during the last week. Another aspect of this is your TiVo needs to be programmed before hand to record what you want to see later. The BBC's service allow you to see it after it is broadcast, even if you failed to record it on your TiVo. Last but not least, TiVo doesn't have the level of penetration in the UK that it has in the US. So for someone wanting to replace an old VCR, it might be easier to just install this than fork out the money for a TiVo.

Re:TiVo?

[gtkuhn]

An AC somewhere above posted...

[BBC is] "the most important cultural institution in Britain and, arguably, the World" (ref. Modern British History, M. Garnett and R. Weight ISBN 1-844-13104-1)

And you want season two of 'Buffy'? The world can be a sad place sometimes.

Re:TiVo?

[AaronGTurner]

I think there is definitely a market for subscription services for people abroad, even just for the Archers, if at the right rate.

I wouldn't mind the programmes being available for longer than a week but this would require larger servers to archive the material and more bandwidth if it meant more people listening in.

Oh, and another handy feature of the current system - if you are listening to Start the Week on the bus on the way to work and your radio battery goes flat, you can simply listen to it on the computer during your lunch break!

Re:TiVo?

[soliptic]

> The UK TV licence fee is regularly moaned about on Slashdot!

It's regularly defended, too.

Re:TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing you aren't in the information business.

Please go talk to some professional librarians and learn first-hand why someone wanting access to Buffy the Vampire Slayer is neither sad nor the end of our world (culturally).

There is nothing wrong the the OP's choice, and any attempt to remove that choice is undesirable. Information collections are supposed to represent the culture of Now, as well as the past. Otherwise, we won't have a real record of the culture in 100 years time.

Lastly, remember: many of the treasured works of art from our history were disregarded or viewed as popular schlock during their time. Sometimes we don't recognise the true masterpieces until years have passed...

Re:TiVo?

[Yer Mom]

We do have TiVo-like products - TiVo, for one :) Satellite viewers (who greatly outnumber cable viewers in the UK, given that you pretty much have to live in a city or large town to even be able to get cable) can also use SkyPlus.

The SkyPlus vs TiVo debate is somewhat akin to vi vs emacs, so I'm not going to go there. Since nobody's making UK TiVos at the moment, though, SkyPlus is the only option for most folk.

Re:TiVo?

[LardBrattish]

As a person who has emigrated from England to Australia - I have learned to appreciate the BBC even more.
Before I left I would have died in a ditch to protect the BBC's freedoms but having seen what continual government interference has done to the Australian equivalent (the ABC) I have really come to marvel at what a great job the BBC does with its limited resources.
Especially now they've brought back Dr Who...
I know that to our American readers the idea of a "television tax" being used to pay for adverisment free channels smells like "big government" in reality it means there is a genuine free press in England. Every commercially owned channel unfortunately is influenced by the owners (and why shouldn't it be really - Rupert Murdoch doesn't want to get reamed out by Sky News so he isn't).
The problem is that every owner has pretty much the same party affiliation in America so evry news channel is pro-Republican and certain "Anti-Republican" news is either not reported or not emphasised. If Clinto had lied to congress to start a war that caused the death of over 1000 American troops you can be darn sure it would not be ignored by the television news the way it has been over the last few years

The Office?

[FriedTurkey]

Hopefully they will allow downloads of the "The Office". It is a great series. Although as an American, I have to turn on the subtitles to understand what they are saying. Also I didn't understand any of the British pop culture references except the Benny Hill ones.

Maybe BBC should allow downloads of Benny Hill too?

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

Benny Hill was on ITV (Thames IIRC)

Re:The Office?

[BenjyD]

I often read Americans saying they had to turn on subtitles to understand parts of The Office. As an English person I've always wanted to know which parts/characters Americans find hard to understand. Or is it just the slang terms used?

From an English person's point of view, the accents are fairly standard mid-England/London accents. But then, having driven round rural Georgia, I know we are two countries divided by a common language.

Re:The Office?

[Reignking]

...or watch it on BBC America...

Re:The Office?

[gowen]

"The Benny Hill Show" started on the BBC in 1955, but transferred to ITV in 1969. The ones that are seen in the US are entirely from the ITV run, and with many of the ruder bits cut out.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, maybe you should read the end of the BBC press release. Unless you are an American living in the UK (or with some proxying through the UK) it looks like you won't be able to get this sutff.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck, we in the US are one country divided by a common language. I moved to northern California from the midwest a couple of years ago. There are many large but distinct ethnic groups here all with their own version of English.

For weeks when I first arrived (and sometimes even now) I had to have my wife translate what people were saying to me. She's from here originally and so grew up understanding the different dialects.

Those first few weeks were like visiting a foreign country with only a high school level understanding of the language.

Re:The Office?

[FriedTurkey]

Mostly just the general slang. I can assume most of them refer to sex. I think Americans find some of the humor [humour] in the cheeky British "shagging" words.

Also David Brent's songs are hilarious when you actually see the words.

Re:The Office?

[metlin]

I *am* from Georgia, ye' insensitive clawd. x-(

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some British slang is totally lost on me, but then again, I'm not sure how many of you guys understand "For shizzle my nizzle" from our side :-) Anyway, some Americans have huge problems understanding anyone with an accent. I used to watch Monty Python regularly on re-runs, so I can understand most British people. Scots are sometimes difficult for me though. The only Brit I can think of that I can't understand very well is Liam Gallagher. I have no problems with Noel, but Liam often sounds like he's got a potato in his mouth.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's easy... Most of my fellow Americans don't even speak American English well enough for locals to understand (e.g. the Ebonic and Hillbilly/Texan variants). There's no chance that they'd understand British English as well. Rural Georgia is a good example, as you mention. The further south you go in the USA, the more slowly everyone speaks. The further north, the more you hear all sorts of bizarre twists on the language (like New Englanders and Canadians). It's probably similar in the UK. I suspect that typical English speakers might have trouble with strong Cockney dialects just the same.

Re:The Office?

[Takeel]

I often read Americans saying they had to turn on subtitles to understand parts of The Office. As an English person I've always wanted to know which parts/characters Americans find hard to understand. Or is it just the slang terms used?

Often, people speaking any sort of accented English are subtitled via lower-thirds in American programming. I guess I find it to be a sad situation, but it's the nature of things.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you drove around more of the US than Gerogia than you also know that the Georgia is more different from Boston than Cockney is from BBC news. (to my ears)

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

For me, it comes down to two things, really:
1) The pacing of the conversation and the emphasis on other syllables in certain words throws people off -- regardless of whether you're American or not. A huge part of language in general is being able to predict the pace of what someone's saying, so that you can easily differentiate between the words. The emphasis on different syllables contributes to losing track of the pace. When the pace is different than what you're used to, it's easy to get lost in what someone's saying.
2) Americans spend so much time wondering what certain slang words mean, where/how they originated, etc. that we get lost in whatever words come after them.

Re:The Office?

[fdobbie]

RTFA. It's restricted to UK users, so no Yanks allowed (this is for the same reason that BBC America has adverts - the BBC is publicly funded by the TV license fee in the UK).

Re:The Office?

[Viol8]

"but Liam often sounds like he's got a potato in his mouth."

No , but he's got a potato for a brain.

Re:The Office?

[TwistedSquare]

I gather it's largely the slang and culture references. Things like muff, minge, pub (which I didn't realise would cause confusion), and others. There is a list on the BBC website somewhere I think. Some of the culture references are just totally lost, like us watching some Simpson's episodes. I doubt anyone not from these shores could appreciate the brilliance of David Brent saying he loved Ian Botham, references to the Corrs, Des'ree, the poem Slough ("dropping bombs is no way to solve town planning problems"), or in the final episodes the appearance of Howard from the Halifax adverts, and his manager's reference to having had the same problem with Bruno Brookes. All these slightly out-of-date and very British references cause problems I gather.

Re:The Office?

[BigZaphod]

Slang is part of it, but not the whole story. I think it is mostly the pacing and tones that really throw us at times. America is pretty big and most people don't do a lot of traveling. I'd say a huge percentage of my midwestern family has never traveled far enough to be fully immersed in a place with a significantly different accent.

It is even more tricky for most midwesterners (I'm talking Iowa and maybe Nebraska here) because the networks and actors all seem to strive for a midwestern accent. There's virtually no difference to the practiced accents we hear everyday on CNN vs. the way we talk around here in "real life." So exposure can be very limited.

When it comes down to it, is is pretty much just a function of having no practice. Having lived in London for a semester, I don't have that problem very much and frequently find myself translating for my friends whenever there's a British character in a movie or TV show. Sometimes I have problems with the slang, but I can make out what they say just as easily as I can for an American accent (unless we're talking deep bayou...). So it doesn't take long to get accustomed to it, but most people simple aren't ever in a situation where they need to.

Re:The Office?

[hoofie]

The gold standard of impenetrable regional accents on UK television must be Rab C. Nesbitt - one of the funniest things ever on television courtesy of the BBC. [if you can understand it].

I'm a Glaswegian-born lad so no problems for me, but English and US friends of mine have watched it and not understood a word.

Re:The Office?

[chowells]

I had a similar problem with Sweet Sixteen, I couldn't understand a word without the subtitles. I believe the accents are Glasgow-based.

I'm from more London diretion than Scotland :)

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from Lancashire (North West of England), not too far from Manchester (the origin of Liam Gallagher's accent)... and *I* struggle to follow him sometimes. It's not the accent that makes him difficult to follow, it's the fact that he can't speak clearly, or string words together to form a coherent sentence.

For what it's worth, I rarely have trouble with accents, only two cause me problems: hard core Scottish (Rab C. Nesbitt for English readers) and rappers who seem to speak some kind of monkey-grunt language (and no, that's not meant to be racist).

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

BBC4 (I think) subtitled this a couple of months ago. I have also seen news reports from Glasgow where the interviewee was subtitled.

Mind you, my Hertfordshire accent is probably the most boring ever.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

The US is pretty homogenous accent-wise (relatively speaking compared to other countries). Have you ever been to the UK & Ireland? Both English speaking (one of the countries is England!) There you will find far greater number of accents, and a far greater range of differences between them. The US is easy to handle in comparison.

Re:The Office?

[brjndr]

C'mon dude. Norcal English is hella easy to understand.

Re:The Office?

[Malc]

As an expat-Briton who's lived in the US, I think it's more than just slang. That's certainly an issue. Also the English tendency to mumble (especially younger people) and use glottle stops is another cause of problems. However, I think the biggest issue is something to do with actually understanding the sounds. It's as if for some people (and this isn't a critism) their ears hear the words, yet their brains don't understand the sounds. Perhaps it's because they haven't been exposed to those types of sound before. I would say 1 in 20 Americans that I met just could not understand a word I was saying. Yet going north of the border to Canada, I find 99% of Canadians have no problems.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

Often, people speaking any sort of accented English

The alternative being what, "unaccented" English? How would you do that?

Re:The Office?

[redd robber]

I watched the first season of The Office on DVD and I turned on the subtitles. The dialog was so great that I didn't want to miss anything. The accents weren't the problem, I think it was the speed. A lot of time Brent would just spit out comments that I would miss without the subtitles. I lived in Germany at the time and got my news from BFBS so I was more used to the accent. Also most Germans that speak English have a Brittish accent and use English vernacular. Probably I'm just too old and my ears can't keep up.

Re:The Office?

[Mark_in_Brazil]

I often read Americans saying they had to turn on subtitles to understand parts of The Office. As an English person I've always wanted to know which parts/characters Americans find hard to understand. Or is it just the slang terms used?

I'm from the USA, but I moved to Brazil 5 years ago. I had no trouble at all understanding any of the accents on The Office (I noticed some minor variations between different characters), and I watched both seasons and the Christmas wrap-up ep. I didn't even find the slang terms difficult, and I'm not up on the newest-latest slang in use in the USA, much less the latest terms from England.
I have also had no trouble understanding the accents in the new season of Doctor Who (friends have taped and sent me the first few eps... God bless my multi-format VHS machine), but I think it's worth noting that Rose's (possibly Billie Piper's, but she may be affecting an accent for the character) accent is more odd to me than anything I recall from The Office. She seems to have difficulty with both of the "th" sounds, replacing them with either "v" or "f".

From an English person's point of view, the accents are fairly standard mid-England/London accents. But then, having driven round rural Georgia, I know we are two countries divided by a common language.

Heh. I find it funny how most folks from the US are totally unable to imitate an English accent well, and how most folks from the UK and Ireland are unable to imitate any US accent well. Gwyneth Paltrow is one (rare) example of a USian who can do a decent English accent. Bob Hoskins is an example of an English person who can do a decent US accent. I remember thinking it was weird (and not a good sign) that an English actor had been cast in the role of the gumshoe detective in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, but when I was watching the film, I forgot about it and didn't even notice he wasn't a United Statesian. Hoskins does a pretty good generic US accent.
But the true master of accents in the English language is Tracey Ullman. That woman is a genius. She is English, and can do various English accents, plus a decent Australian accent, and a whole bunch of American accents. She can do a Jewish New York accent and an Italian New York accent better than I could ever do (and I have Jewish family in the New York metro area!). The two are different, and both are pretty darn good. She can do a Southern accent and a Texas accent and nail both. If I try to do a Southern US accent and a Texas accent, I end up doing the same mixed Southeastern-Texas accent that misses important aspects of both. It doesn't sound right even to my own ear, much less to people from those regions. And I lived 31 years in the USA, have family in Texas and had a best friend from the South (plus my sister lives in South Carolina now). I am in awe of Tracey Ullman.
When I went to visit a friend in England in 1986, there was a moment when my friend's family and I were waiting to get a table at a popular (and fancy) restaurant. Another man waiting for a table heard my accent and struck up a conversation with me. It was really embarassing, because my friend had to "translate," even though we were both speaking English. This fellow, in addition to having an accent that made it difficult for me to recognize words I know, used terms I'd never heard before. For example, his joke that I might order a "chip buttie" at the fancy restaurant was totally lost on me. My friend had to explain that a "chip buttie" is basically a french fry sandwich. An explained joke is never as funny, but I did my best to show amusement, because on an intellectual level, it was humorous. Still, the embarassment of having to have the joke "translated," plus the fact of it coming to me as an explained joke and not a "fresh" one kinda killed the humor. "Divided by a common language," indeed.

Re:The Office?

[meitsjustme]

The "th"="v/f" thing is quite common especially among younger people. Though I'm not sure if this is restricted to London area or not.

Re:The Office?

[drewness]

I don't think age has anything to do with th -> v|f. I'm not sure what dialect it is, but if you watch episodes of Monty Python you'll hear them do characters with that feature. And there's several characters in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books that talk like that. (The dialog is written in dialect like: "I fink...").
My guess is that it's some sort of working class accent.

Re:The Office?

[zakezuke]

From an English person's point of view, the accents are fairly standard mid-England/London accents. But then, having driven round rural Georgia, I know we are two countries divided by a common language

Don't judge America by Georgia. Being an American I find some New England accents harder to understand, the ones where the Rs are pronounced like Ws, and Rs are thrown in where they don't belong. But at the same time, I find the Liverpool accent easier to understand than New England or Arkansas.

As an English person I've always wanted to know which parts/characters Americans find hard to understand. Or is it just the slang terms used?

I've not seen the Office so I can't speak for it. But a lack of understanding is two fold.

Different vowel pronunciation. Take fuck for instance (fauk-fahk / fook). In yank speak it's far more harsh where in the UK, at least as far north as Liverpool seems to make people giggle (My dear, I would like to fook). What (waat / waut) is another good example.

Different word use.

Queue is not in all that common use in the states, we prefer to "wait in line". "On the pull" is something I never heard till watching BBC material, which I can only imagine would be on something like "The Office".

Knackered / Knackers yard is not common in the states. The only use of "Knackers yard" I heard was in reference to a ship yard.

Words not used in the States.

Smeg/Smegma - (blame Red Dwarf). Circumcision is very popular in the states... so there is no reason to think of smeg at all. Till my teen years, I thought Smegma was a very cheep brand of cigarettes, once which left an awful taste in your mouth (I like him and all but that smegma is awful, I can't stand the taste).

Habbits

Collecting lottery money at the work place (Doctor Who). I've never known a case where any place of employment has pooled together money to buy lottery tickets. Horse races yes, but this by many isn't considered to be acceptable.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding, right? Have you ever been to the US?

Within less than 50 miles of me there are populations that speak *at least* 10 different accents, and most of them sound nothing alike.

I find it really hard to believe that the populations of England & Ireland, which, for generations, have basically been native English speakers have a greater number of accents with greater ranges of differences than the relatively new populations of non-native English speakers in the US.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a feature of the insipid "Estuary (Est'ree) English" accent and dialect that began in the Thames estuary, where London is located (roughly) and has spread out through the Home Counties (the areas surrounding London in the south and south east of England) and has become the new Received Pronunciation (the way the BBC used to speak). All children, broadly speaking, now pick it up through their children's' TV viewing, and young people speak it because all their peers do. Those who don't use t get attacked in schools because speaking with a different accent apparently is an indicator of sexuality in Britain's playgrounds and schoolyards. Wikipedia has a good article about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English . I could go on (and believe me I would), but this would become a rant. Here I end.

Re:The Office?

[CmdrGravy]

There are a lot of different accents and dialects in the UK but it's also quite a small place so the chances are most people are fairly exposed to quite a large percentage of the accents out there.

For example when I was younger we used to go to Scotland quite often on the train, somewhere around Carlisle the staff used to change and I found it very very difficult to understand a word the new Scottish conductors were saying. Now however I am able to understand people talking in the same way perfectly.

Having said that I did once work on a helpdesk dealing with Welsh steel workers and sometimes they'd have to repeat things 3 or 4 times before I could even guess what they were on about but I think in the process I maybe understand other Welsh people a little more now.

Re:The Office?

[CmdrGravy]

I think they had at least one episode with fairly ridiculous subtitles in it. I loved that series.

Re:The Office?

[RichM]

Although as an American...

You obviously didn't read TFA.
This will be available to British citizens only.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's kind of good to be one of the British former colonies though :)

As a New Zealander, we are inundated with accents, terms, cultural references from everywhere - it's fun to get basically every single joke and understand every voice you hear without problems :)

(Have to admit - didn't get the reference to the poem Slough, though...even if the line about dropping bombs is funny enough by itself)

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

I managed to get through six seasons of Red Dwarf before I learnt what term smeg came from :)

(With a completely unrelated incident involving a medical dictionary and utter boredom :)

Re:The Office?

[Takeel]

Easy! I don't have an accent -- you do. :)

Re:The Office?

[zakezuke]

RTFA. It's restricted to UK users, so no Yanks allowed (this is for the same reason that BBC America has adverts - the BBC is publicly funded by the TV license fee in the UK).

BBC-A is limited to cable and dish networks. On my cable it's part of the standard analog set, where most others cable providers put it on the digital which requires box rental. I've always wondered why they decided to go with a comercial station rather than a subscription. Hell if they wanted to they could just rebroadcast what the UK sees, time delayed 5 and/or 8hrs. If they could get away with charging the standard license fee... it would be cheap in contrast to other comercial free stations.

Re:The Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

For what it's worth, I rarely have trouble with accents, only two cause me problems: hard core Scottish (Rab C. Nesbitt for English readers) and rappers who seem to speak some kind of monkey-grunt language (and no, that's not meant to be racist).

Go to Liverpool and see the pissed folk in the pub. They also switch to some form of monkey-grunt speak and lose the ability to understand eachother.

Am I missing something?

[frankthechicken]

If the BBC essentially runs a public domain service anyway, why are the shows deleted after seven days?

This ceratinly doesn't need to happen on a video recording.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the BBC are the copyright holders. Just because they are (mostly) publicly funded doesn't mean their output is "public domain".

Re:Am I missing something?

[AKAImBatman]

If the BBC essentially runs a public domain service anyway, why are the shows deleted after seven days?

I don't think it's that simple. For one, I believe that BBC doesn't own all the shows they broadcast. (Although they do own quite a few.) As such, they are licensed to provide public distribution of the shows, but are not necessary able to just give them away. This would seem to be backed by the article's mention of Hollywood and independent studios.

In addition, it also mentions that the acting unions are "acting up"^H^H balking at the idea of Internet distribution. They don't give any details, but my guess is that actors are concerned that rampant piracy would result in lower wages and fewer acting jobs. It's probably pretty hard to convince them that if given a good for-pay alternative, the majority of people will use the convenient pay service. (The only reason why Napster ever appeared was that the music industry failed to respond to market pressures. What did they THINK was going to happen?)

Re:Am I missing something?

[NetNifty]

I seem to remember a while ago that it was taking so long for them to do this (they announced it first quite a long time ago) because of the issues of paying actors (IIRC they get paid royalties each time it's shown, or something like that), so DRM is probably their solution they could agree on. Also the BBC gains a lot of capital from DVD sales.

Really is a pity though they are using DRM, and a custom application, as I wouldn't be surprised at all if it only ran on Windows. I also hope the P2P part of it actually lets me cap upload and download bandwidth, and the application allows me to watch the video on my TV which is connected to my PC.

Re:Am I missing something?

[erroneus]

If they didn't delete content, people's computers would crash. You seem to forget we're talking about the public here...

Re:Am I missing something?

[gowen]

actors are concerned that rampant piracy would result in lower wages and fewer acting jobs

It's more likely that they're balking at the fact that on-demand video won't supply them with the repeat fees that they get when shows are rebroadcast by traditional means.

Re:Am I missing something?

[AKAImBatman]

It's more likely that they're balking at the fact that on-demand video won't supply them with the repeat fees that they get when shows are rebroadcast by traditional means.

That's a good point. I'm not too familar with British styles of acting compensation, but if I had royalties, I'd definitely like to hold onto them. Once the time-shifting issue is figured out, I suppose what they'd need to do for pay-per-view is make sure that royalties are properly earmarked for each download. This would give actors a similar income, but probably more frequent payments. Plus, actors might see royalties for shows that have all but disappeared from reruns.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Mwongozi]

Disclaimer: The following is a guess.

The system uses a P2P network to distribute the shows. By forcing the erasure of old shows, they ensure that only the latest shows are being shared, resulting in more efficient use of bandwidth, and faster downloads.

Having said that, it's probably just because they can.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

P2P scales well with demand. They would not be hurt by allowing older files to exist on the network.

Re:Am I missing something?

[DigitalBubblebath]

I imagine it's so less clued-up users don't run out of disk space, after all video takes up a lot of room. Would be nice to have the option though - I suppose that's what this trial's for though eh?

Re:Am I missing something?

[m50d]

It's not public domain. A significant amount of it is produced by other studios under license, licensed from other channels/countries, or will be licensed to other places for money. Now one can argue it should be public domain, but it presently isn't.

Re:Am I missing something?

[VdG]

Actors generally object to too many repeats, despite royalties. They'd much rather see new programmes being made.

Re:Am I missing something?

[drsmithy]

That's a good point. I'm not too familar with British styles of acting compensation, but if I had royalties, I'd definitely like to hold onto them. Once the time-shifting issue is figured out, I suppose what they'd need to do for pay-per-view is make sure that royalties are properly earmarked for each download. This would give actors a similar income, but probably more frequent payments. Plus, actors might see royalties for shows that have all but disappeared from reruns.

Or maybe actors could just learn that they only deserve to get paid once, for the work the do at the time, like the rest of us poor sods ?

Re:Am I missing something?

[wolflike]

The biggest issue is usually the music that accompanies the programs. Rights are given for a broadcast of music (theme tune, backing music, sound effect etc ) and this is very rarely owned by the BBC. eg Eastenders (bad bad bad soap) might have a cafe scene where a top40 song is on in the background. fat chance of the BBC being allowed to give this away...... BTW does anyone know when storage will be up to the job of recording everything broadcast, indexing it locally (at my flat) and letting me hold it all for as long as I want, (unselected shows can drop off after 1 week). Then I can read the reveiws and watch shows I know were good, rather than have to guess? sort of Tivo on steroids??

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actors generally object to too many repeats, despite royalties. They'd much rather see new programmes being made.

Christ, they'll have problems if they ever have to get real jobs.

"I don't want to do that, I'd rather see this"

"You're fired."

Well

[metlin]

If it is available digitally, it would certainly be possible to find a way of copying it without the whole deletion procedure.

Even if its a custom media player, how long is it going to take for someone to hack it up?

From the BBC Press release

[Alranor]

The BBC's interactive media player (iMP) is a new application in development which will allow users to download tv and radio programmes from bbc.co.uk to their PC or laptop and watch or listen to them for seven days after the transmission date.

Anyone wanna bet it'll be Windows only.

Guess i'll probably end up sticking to bittorrent.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[gowen]

Anyone wanna bet it'll be Windows only.

Given the BBC's previous experiments with transmissions in OGG format, and their continued development of a video codec free of patent encumberances, I'd be very surprised if it was Windows only.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[IamTheRealMike]

Naturally, it might be out on the Mac too in time but I doubt it'll have a Linux version. There's no builtin DRM with Linux like there is with Windows so it'd be a lot harder to protect the content files.

IMHO DRM and Linux don't necessarily have to be enemies. For instance take the Windows XP "Secure Audio Path". It relies on driver co-operation and essentially means the audio passes from the media player encrypted into the kernel: there's no way to get the audio out of the media player in a cleartext form. The kernel will only decrypt and forward the audio to the driver if it's SAP enabled, which means it agrees to prevent recording at the same time as playing. In other words, you can't do a "play and record simultaneously" attack using only software.

At this point somebody will point out that you can still connect two computers (or a recording device) together using a minijack-to-minijack cable and use the analog hole. Yes. But doing so is awkward and requires cables I think most casual pirates don't have. Of course you can go down to your local Radio Shack and buy one if you know what you're looking for, but fundamentally DRM is about making things awkward - it's not about totally 100% secure uncrackable systems.

Let's say that the Linux kernel implemented an equivalent to SAP. Of course you could hack the source to disable it. But even if there were widespread RPMs of the patched kernels available, how many people would take the time to track them down and use them, simply for the privilege of using up bandwidth spreading them on p2p networks? For most people DRM isn't the fundamental religious issue it is to many here on Slashdot - they use P2P systems because it's a lot easier to search, point, click than the alternative (which is usually buy a DVD box set). The more awkward it is, the fewer people will do it, and the harder it becomes to find pirate copies of new material. Having the source means you can do something, not necessarily that you will do something.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[Alranor]

All true, but bear in mind this is an application not a codec, and it apparently has some form of DRM attached which will prevent the shows from being played later than a week after they've been downloaded.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it's some ActiveX gunk. I discovered the install URL and it runs in Crossover Office IE, but it doesn't show any programmes (maybe because I'm not a 'selected household').

Re:From the BBC Press release

[gowen]

If iTunes has taught us anything, it is that DRM can be completely crossplatform.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[steeler359]

This brings up another issue, one that I have been pondering for a while...

I am a TV Licence payer, and like most people in this country pay the BBC over £100 a year for the privilege of having a publicly-funded independent broadcasting body show me the programs that I have directly paid for.

No problem with that (though I haven't always thought that way). Now what I'm wondering is what about the legal status of p2p downloads that I have on my computer of shows that have been produced and broadcast by the BBC?

This is particularly topical in my case as I have missed most of the new series of Dr Who for various reasons over the last coupla months, but have been able to download and watch them only a few days after their broadcast by the efforts pf the wonderful p2p community (Cheers lads and lasses). ...And what about all those freeloading citizens of other countries who have the nerve to download BBC shows off us? ***runs for cover***

(never mind the fact I may have downloaded chunks of my download from someone in another country..)

Gawd bless the ed2k network...

Jerry

: )

Re:From the BBC Press release

[m50d]

It has also taught us that the makers won't bother making a linux client.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

". The kernel will only decrypt and forward the audio to the driver if it's SAP enabled, which means it agrees to prevent recording at the same time as playing. In other words, you can't do a "play and record simultaneously" attack using only software."

Never heard of or experienced that, but it sounds like something the DRMonkeys would do. Still can be evaded in software: Run your OS inside vmware, record loopback style on the host OS.

Or hack your drivers. All it takes is one hacked instance to unleash it. Look at piracy on the Sega Dreamcast-- In the original days, nobody knew how to rip it (I think the originals were done with a dreamcast dev box, then the hacked yamaha driver that would load the 1gb disks, then a custom app to run on your dreamcast to copy it over the network, but I digress). Even if joe college student doesn't have the cable, john scene-boy from RNS(just an example release group, all are equally capable) will have no problem getting around it, making it sound good, then pushing it to the affil sites early tuesday. Few days to trickle down to topsites, then usenet, then p2p, then joe college student has his free-as-in-no-drm copy.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[slim]

Given the BBC's previous experiments with transmissions in OGG format, and their continued development of a video codec free of patent encumberances, I'd be very surprised if it was Windows only.

Those Ogg trials were abandoned and the BBC continues to use Real as it's primary audio distribution method.

OTOH, the podcasting experiment, using MP3s and RSS at least show willing.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[Sylver Dragon]

While what you say is true, I think there is one hole in the argument. You only need one dedicated pirate to put it on a P2P network, and the game is over. If anything, the more difficult the DRM becomes to break, the more it will drive the pirate groups to try to release a zero-day hack. A lot of the small groups which do this sort of thing are doing it simply for the recognition they receive on their local IRC channel. They will still be driven to break the DRM, and post the result. Everyone else will still have their convienent point and click interface, and will still be more than happy to share bandwidth to get around having to pay for it.
Is this legal, ethical, moral? I'll let the reader sort all of those out for himself. But I don't think it's suprising. Anytime a monopoly exists on a product, and that monopoly is used to keep prices above the perceived value of a product, you can expect a black market to pop up to fill the demand at a lower cost. That's what's happened with P2P networks and music and movies. It may be ethically dubious, but its an expected outcome of a capitalistic system under an artificial imposed scarcity.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[IamTheRealMike]

Never heard of or experienced that, but it sounds like something the DRMonkeys would do. Still can be evaded in software: Run your OS inside vmware, record loopback style on the host OS.

Yes that's the most obvious attack, but again, how many people both have VMware and want to use it for piracy? It's not a mass market easy to use cracker. Also bear in mind that it's trivially defeated: VMware can be detected if you look for it explicitly. Just refuse to play DRMd audio if it's running inside VMware.

Or hack your drivers. All it takes is one hacked instance to unleash it.

The drivers are digitally signed after being SAP verified by Microsoft. It will refuse to play protected audio if you have unsigned drivers. You can read more about it here.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[gowen]

the BBC continues to use Real as it's primary audio distribution method

And why does it use Real? Well, one of the reasons is because it's cross-platform. Your reply supports my argument.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[grahammm]

The article states that the only stipulation is a fast internet access. Though, of course, that could just be journalistic licence simplifying things.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[NetNifty]

" The drivers are digitally signed after being SAP verified by Microsoft. It will refuse to play protected audio if you have unsigned drivers."

Gah then I really hope the BBC's DRM doesn't use this, pretty much all my drivers are unsigned (using Windows x64 edition on my Windows partition, so most drivers are beta still).

Re:From the BBC Press release

[IamTheRealMike]

It's based on Kontiki which is in turn based on WMA (which obviously uses the secure audio path), so yes you will need to get signed drivers from the manufacturers.

Probably the only way to do DRM on Linux succesfully is to do what the digital satellite companies have done and move it entirely into hardware: in other words, sell cheap USB speakers/headphones that accept encrypted audio and output (watermarked) analog audio. The process of recording and watermark stripping the analog audio would (hopefully) be annoying enough that the purchase price of the content seems reasonable.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[hedora]

If it won't use unsigned drivers, then find a security exploit in the windows kernel or use the digital out on your sound card.

Oh wait, content producers can use SAP to disable digital out. That sounds like it will fly with consumers. I can imagine the "this music is incompatible with my speakers" complaints already.

I'll stick with CDs, thanks.

If I really wanted to pay for DRM'ed content, I would look into running the DRM codecs under Linux. If this isn't already supported, you can bet that it will be if significant demand crops up. Barring hardware schemes like TCPA/Palladium, the biggest tricks would be getting any network authentication stuff correct, and reimplementing the API between the "DRM kernel component" and the rest of the system.

As soon as average consumers start losing music that they paid for due to DRM systems, you can bet that tools that circumvent DRM will become commonplace. It doesn't matter how complex the circumvention system is, as long as it works out of the box.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[arose]

I'll stick with CDs, thanks.

Just make sure it has the logo. Otherwise there are books and DRM-less content from the net (both free and paid, just not "mainstream"). Net content is increasing rapidly and even some good books become available in Latvia (translated, ut you can't have everything).

Re:From the BBC Press release

[isorox]

As SBS are involved, probably. Siemens (especialy the guys that just took over BBCT) are Microsoft sycophants. If it was a true BBC project - i.e. made within the corporation from R&D or something you'd get a Linux and Mac version because of many R&D guys use those platforms. The media will always be DRMed because of non-BBC copyrights. Even if it's a BBC production like Eastenders or Dr Who, and even if everyones contracts from the writers to the actors to the grips were renegotiated, you'd still have problems with background music in the pub etc.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[totoanihilation]

So is QuickTime Streaming Server. Plus as a bonus, it's free, and sounds better...

Re:From the BBC Press release

[hedora]

Fortunately, I haven't run into any copy protected CDs yet. (although it may be because most of the stuff I buy is over 5 years old or is being released by small record labels or independent artists..) If I do, I'll be sure to demand a refund, or a replacement that plays on my equipment. ;)

I think free (as in speech), electronic distribution is the most realistic long term solution. If done properly, we could piggy-back reliable long-term data archival onto the distribution network (so today's creative works will continue to exist over the centuries). Less open distribution channels are inconvenient, and frequently abuse their customers.

Artists could be paid for performances, or by using a 'ransom' funding model, where current sales fund the development of the next album/book/software program/etc. Alternatively, they could reserve some of their collection for paying customers, or limit the public version to 128kbps MP3's, or some other format that sounds fine on anything except for a decent home stereo system.

Right now, the main reason I pay for CDs is that it's worth the money to get a physical backup of the album, and to be able to produce high quality audio files that are in the same format and naming convention as the rest of my music collection. Also, musicians have to eat...

If I bought my stuff from iTunes, or whatever, I wouldn't get a lossless physical copy, the format of the files would be dictated to me, and it would be more difficult to stream my music collection from web browsers, like I do now. All of these problems could be easily solved by an electronic distribution model. (A "Pay once", "download often" model would solve the physical backup problem...)

Re:From the BBC Press release

[arose]

You basicly describe the Magnatune model. 128kbps MP3s for free (CC licensed in fact). Choice of formats including FLACs and plain WAVs. Ability to re-download. The only thing I find lacking are purchasing options from Latvia (I could get a Visa Electron debit card, but I don't know if it will work and how much transaction will eat), so for the time beeing I freeride on the free MP3s.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[hedora]

magnatune rocks ;)

I found them using Gnome's (?) streamtuner program.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[arose]

I'll have to check streamtuner out, iRate and Gnomoradio are too unstable.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[binarytoaster]

From the linked page:

You can also use Secure Audio Path to disable digital output on audio cards. By using this feature, content owners can disable digital output by setting a parameter in licenses for their music. If this parameter is set, Secure Audio Path forces the sound card to disable its digital output capability when playing packaged music. Users can listen to decrypted music, but they cannot make copies.

Cute. So if I have a sound system that happens to use the coax or optical out from my system, I'm screwed. Basically, any advances in audio technology are nullified because you don't want me to be able to copy it, and I'll have to switch modes just to listen to your audio. Fuck you.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[ozric99]

Yes that's the most obvious attack, but again, how many people both have VMware and want to use it for piracy?

It doesn't matter. It only takes one.

Re:From the BBC Press release

[DocTim]

There are two conditions for using the service: fast internet access, and being a UK television license fee payer. Not quite sure how they will resolve this, but the BBC is making extensive use of Geo IP and suchlike. So non-Brits should have trouble watching BBC programmes for free.
Why Geo-IP and Brits only? It's a question of television rights. AFter all the BBC generates a lot of money by selling programmes abroad, which it ploughs back into its programme making.

Sweet!

[AKAImBatman]

I'm off to see if I can get the good Doctor here in the states! Cherrio!

Re:Sweet!

[AKAImBatman]

Dang. This is just a beta to 5000 homes. BTW, anyone notice this:

Laser disc This early forerunner to the DVD used giant 12-inch discs and was a conspicious flop.

That's like saying that oversized cassette cartriges were failures. Yeah, no one used them at home, but Laser Disks are still used at the industrial level to store master digital recordings of movies. Without laser disk technology, we'd probably still be splicing film!

Re:Sweet!

[Golias]

You can.

The new-ish group for it is alt.binaries.doctorwho (IIRC)

Re:Sweet!

[AKAImBatman]

The new-ish group for it is alt.binaries.doctorwho (IIRC)

BBC: The DOC-TOR shows? EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! ;-)

Re:Sweet!

[elgaard]

>but Laser Disks are still used at the industrial level to store master digital recordings of movies.

Laser Disks does not store video digitally.

Re:Sweet!

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get the new Doctor Who series with Eccleston off TVtorrents.com... all 8 episodes that have aired are up there now, at about 350 MB each. They are GREAT!

Re:Sweet!

[Anonymous Coward]

Laser discs store the signal in analogue form: The (non-discretized) length of the pits and lands encodes the signal.

Re:Sweet!

[AKAImBatman]

Laser Disks does not store video digitally.

Seems you're right. From Wikipedia:

Video was stored on LD as an analog signal, while audio could be stored in either analog or digital format and in a variety of surround sound formats. Like on a CD, the surface of the disc is an aluminium foil covered by pits and lands, but whereas on a audio CD (or DVD) the pits and lands will signify binary codes, on an LD the pits are created using frequency modulation of an analog signal.

I always assumed that LD stored information in a manner similar to CDs. Turns out that Laser Disc is an OLDER technology than CDs, going all the way back to 1958! I used to have a Laser Disc player and never knew this. Guess you learn something new every day. Thanks for the info! :-)

Re:Sweet!

[Anonymous Coward]

Either you got a typo or the site is gone

Re:Sweet!

[Gallenod]

I'm lucky: we live in Vermont, so we're 36 miles from the Canadian border. We get a couple of Canadian channels in our cable package so I've been watching Doctor Who on Canadian TV on Tuesday nights.

I don't think they're being broadcast on any American channels yet and I haven't seen them advertised on BBC America, which would be the first place they'll probably show up here for the rest of the country.

Re:Sweet!

[otherniceman]

Two problems with that
1) The p2p network they have developed / using be will restricting access to the UK by using Geo-IP (http://sourceforge.net/projects/geoip/).

2) The only Doctor Who episode likely to be broadcast during the trial period is the Christmas Special.

Re:Sweet!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious to know how an American views the new series. Opinion seems divided in the UK... it's been hugely successful and popular, and yet there's a lot of people who think most of the episodes blow.

If I Read TFA Correctly

[ultimabaka]

This kinda deal has been around for quite a while in the US already. Concepts like Time Warner Cable's HBO/Showtime/Porn on Demand systems with their TiVO-esque receivers allow you to do something very similar, albeit over their high-speed cable connections only. The article doesn't seem to mention whether you can download the TV shows to your computer in any kind of HD, (or whether you can send them to others within the 15-day period for that matter), but I imagine you probably could, since, at least stateside, I believe you now can with the On-Demand stuff.

Of course, as usual, I could be totally wrong.

Re:If I Read TFA Correctly

[NinjaFarmer]

Porn on Demand

I want this. Where do I get it?

Its Positive

[Digital Warfare]

But I don't think they'll beat products like the Nebula because they are so easy to use, and no DRM
My Dad uses it often to record shows and burn them to DVD
very reliable

I like it...but need more than a week's worth.

[PenguinBoyDave]

I like it. I think that you should be able to keep stuff for a month (what if you are on vacation, etc.) because you can't always watch what you need. I don't have Tivo because when I got it a while ago there was no interoperability with my VOIP phone. If I was told I could have this service I would have taken it. It might not suit everyone, but it works for me.

BBC and DRM

[tdvaughan]

I was disappointed at first to see that the BBC is implementing DRM but it's worth bearing in mind that not all the content broadcast by the BBC is owned by them. Much of it comes from independent studios who license it to the BBC. So I remain hopeful that the BBC will offer its own copyrighted material to UK license payers on more permissive terms.

Re:BBC and DRM

[taskforce]

Agreed, I thought the most interesting deveolopment was that they were allowing downloads of feature films (which presumably they've liscenced to show on the TV channels as well.) That's a step forward if anything.

Re:BBC and DRM

[slim]

I was disappointed at first to see that the BBC is implementing DRM but it's worth bearing in mind that not all the content broadcast by the BBC is owned by them. Much of it comes from independent studios who license it to the BBC. So I remain hopeful that the BBC will offer its own copyrighted material to UK license payers on more permissive terms.

The BBC makes a lot of money from DVD/Video sales, as well as selling content internationally.

I expect the BBC will be looking to DRM to allow them to run this service without putting either of those two revenue streams in too much peril.

broadcasters, telecom and hardware manufacturers

[ch-chuck]

are pouring hundreds of millions of pounds into defining the way we will watch television in the next decade.

What about the writers, directors, actors and the audience? Don't they get any input in the electronic theatre?

Christian singles

[ninja_assault_kitten]

How they hell did Google associate this article with an ad for Christian singles?

Re:broadcasters, telecom and hardware manufacturer

[JWW]

Writers, directors, actors, yes.

Audience, no.

Call me weird

[c0ldfusi0n]

But with that headline, i first thought it was refering to a lawsuit. Trial and Music in the same headline, and it's not a lawsuit?! Expect a letter from the RIAA soon, guys!

Re:Call me weird

[kristopher]

I know were trying to be funny but that's exactly what I thought. Then when I saw it state five thousand users, I nearly crapped my pants. Not that I don't crap my pants often. Just, that is pants crapping worthy if you ask me.

Scary...

[sznupi]

/. stories about MPAA brainwashed me to the point that I thought it's about court case or something...

Time-shifting

[RealProgrammer]

Dr. Who fans will note that their house now looks a lot smaller on the outside than it really is on the inside.

Re:Time-shifting

[Anonymous Coward]

The BBC has been testing this for some time. A supposedly secret url to the test site that opened a channel to BBC1 in RealPlayer was leaked recently, and consequently the Dalek episode of the new Doctor Who series was seen by Who fans worldwide.

The episode was recieved well and many American veiwers said they would be very willing to pay a subscription for BBC TV.

Those of us in the know kept quiet about it, to prevent it being Slashdotted. Sorry. The url has been now fixed and no longer works.

Heh.

[Aldric]

The RIAA like to sue people that can't fight back. The BBC can most definitely fight back.

Quit Complaining - And Read My Journal ;)

[TheFlyingGoat]

I've had a decent idea for legal TV distribution online in my journal for a while now. Most of the posts I see so far about this BBC service are negative. Finally a media outlet is trying to embrace technology instead of calling their lawyers every 5 minutes, and all people can do is complain. Downloadable shows will probably never be free without the show including some form of DRM or advertising... get used to it. I'd much rather have DRM or ads than no downloadable shows at all.

If you don't want the DRM or ads, get a Tivo or TV capture card and skip the commercials or edit them out.

7 days - pah

[DrSkwid]

we want 0 day !!

my $ is on it taking less than 7 days to find unencumbered versions

This is exactly what I want

[j-cloth]

I will pay subscription fees to whoever will take the money so that I can download Six Feet Under or Lost or whatever else within minutes of broadcast without having to go looking for a torrent. Even more important, I want to be able to get series that I missed (Firefly, Sopranos) .... The nature of most P2P services (esp bittorrent) is that this older stuff is harder to come by.

I don't really care if I can keep the episodes forever. I do now, but I never rewatch any of them an only keep them around so I have a big enough share to get into the good Direct Connect channels.

Hopefully the test goes well and it's introduced in other markets soon.

Countdown to Angry Beeb

[Racter]

DRM broken in three...two...

Automatically deleted?

[ChaosCube]

Automatically deleted from user's computers? That would make me a bit uncomfortable. Why would I want someone poking around MY computer deleting stuff, even if it is authorized? Computers, especially systems running Windows should not be open to others for manipulation (IMAO). Then, there's the issue of Linux. Will there be a special BBC account set up, or should users just hand over their root password?

I don't know. It's just too much control over private property by a governmental/corporate entity. That's trouble. However, the people of Britian are used to being watched constantly anyway. There's cameras everywhere on that island! King Arthur would be disgusted!

Well, that's just my initial reaction. I'm too lazy to read the article right now.

Re:Automatically deleted?

[Pakaran2]

The issue of Linux is that it simply won't be supported. Isn't that obvious?

Re:Automatically deleted?

[Anonymous Coward]

The BBC are creating a video streaming codec called Dirac http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/overview.sh tml as reported on /. a few months ago... Which is open source... I presume they want to use this eventually

Re:Automatically deleted?

[ChaosCube]

I was just making a point, but yes, quite obvious.

Re:Automatically deleted?

[dthomas9]

> Automatically deleted from user's computers?

Your web browser deletes files from your computer all the time, and it doesn't need root access to do it.

My guess is that since the files are DRM protected in any case, the deletion we're talking about is little more than cleaning up a cache. They're not going to care if you do manage to keep a copy of a file longer than 7 days.

Unless of course, somebody breaks the DRM.

Re:Automatically deleted?

[arose]

Your web browser deletes files from your computer all the time, and it doesn't need root access to do it.

I can change that.

Re:Automatically deleted?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, the radio version "listen again" works fine on linux using Realplayer, or as I was surprised to find out, xine.

Re:Automatically deleted?

[dave420]

I hate to sound rude here, but FOR FUCK'S SAKE

Do you think that to use the service you have to share your hard disk on the internet? Or that they'll come round and use your PC? Of course not. The content is provided through a custom application. That application will handle the DRM and allow the content to be deleted if it expires. It will obviously be well aware of what you've downloaded. It won't go snooping around your disk when you're asleep looking for things to eat - it'll delete what it has to.

As for the government/corporate entities "controlling" the people - this is a trial of a service. It's not mandatory.

And as for being watched - the CCTV cameras are no problem if you're being lawful. People are regularly caught after being recorded on CCTV. And, before you say "but you're being filmed! privacy! privacy!" - they're not in peoples' homes, but on the street, in PUBLIC. That's right - PUBLIC not PRIVATE, so what's the matter? Do you scream at people on the street to look away from you as you walk past?

Why so paranoid?

Re:Automatically deleted?

[ChaosCube]

You know, sometimes I have way too much coffee too. It's ok, you'll get over it.

FTFA:

[oneandoneis2]

Commercial rivals have already voiced fears that the BBC's substantial investment in iMP and the Creative Archive could damage their chances of making money from the concept.

[rant]Well, maybe they should have been worrying about that for the last bloody decade then, instead of spending all their time & money trying to legislate the whole bloody concept out of existance!![/rant]

*ahem*

Yay, BBC! It's times like this I don't object to paying my license fee!

you dont have access to the BBC's entire library

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA:

"...which allows viewers to download any show from the previous week that they may have missed."

Whistle Test?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure hope we can get to the OGWT archives..

anyone?

And I don't need a license fee...

[JackJudge]

Now I can finally watch the BBC in the UK and I don't need a license fee, PCs and internet content don't need one.

So.... either they've shot themselves in the foot here (unlikely) or after the trial they'll press for PCs to be require a "TV" license.

Re:And I don't need a license fee...

[Mwongozi]

Or they'll simply require registration - and limit users to those who have a TV license.

Re:And I don't need a license fee...

[RikF]

Or perhaps you'll get your user-name and password as part of your TV licence... C'mon, think a little! What I am hoping is that they don't limit this to UK IP addresses - I travel a lot and the ability to keep up with BBC programming (especially the news) will be very valuable to me.

To those that see this as a tivo-lite system, remember that this won't require you to buy anything new, assuming you have suitable hardware at home. You won't need to pay any subscription above the tv-licence fee. The 7-day limitiation seems to be pretty much in line with what you are 'supposed' to do with VHS recordings. Also remember that if it is a TV series you want and it is produced by the Beeb, it is normally out on DVD within weeks or months (the start of the new series of Doctor Who is already available)

RikF

Re:And I don't need a license fee...

[Zeussy]

More likely check ur IP. I'm sure that most of the video's can only be streamed in the uk on the beebs site.

Re:And I don't need a license fee...

[otherniceman]

They are using Geo-IP to check where in the world your IP address is.

Re:And I don't need a license fee...

[otherniceman]

The trial requires Name and Postcode, so it would be possible for them to restrict access to people in the licensing Database.

UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[SuperBanana]

If the BBC essentially runs a public domain service anyway, why are the shows deleted after seven days?

Unlike American public television which is largely supported by private grants/donations/fundraising, the BBC is supported by advertising and (are you sitting down?) a yearly television tax.

A friend was at Suffolk University for a semester abroad. One day everyone in the dorm started running around like they were chickens with their heads cut off, and she asked what was going on. "The TV tax police!" She thought they were trying to do "pull a joke on the stupid American", until she looked out the window and saw a big van with antennas on top and what looked like police officers going building to building. (The vans use the RF from the heterodyne tuners to locate TVs that are on, I believe).

She said the scene would have made Orwell proud. Don't I recall hearing London has a 1:4 CCTV cameras:people ratio?

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[NetNifty]

"the BBC is supported by advertising and (are you sitting down?) a yearly television tax."

Nope, just a yearly TV tax, no advertising.

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[Dougy]

The BBC has no advertising

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer to think of it as a subscription that gets you four TV channels, seven or eight top quality national radio stations, local radio stations, a stupendously good news media organization, and high-quality production values and no advertising. It's also pretty cheap compared with the "independent" subscription services, except that with "independent" subscription channels you get to pay the fee and watch advertising as well. Great value!

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[slim]

She said the scene would have made Orwell proud.

So what's wrong with detecting and prosecuting tax avoiders?

By only beef with the TV license situation is that alongside much excellent output, the BBC seems to spend an inordinate amount of time broadcasting either fluff or blatant promotional stuff for commercial pop music.

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[chowells]

> (The vans use the RF from the heterodyne tuners to locate TVs that are on, I believe).

Mostly it's just to scare people that don't know their rights. If TV licensing come round in a big van _they cannot_ force you to allow them into your home, they have absolutely zero legal right to do so.

They must have a warrant from the police/magistrate before they can do anything which will take time.

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[Bazzalisk]

That's actualy not the case. As a part of customs and excise rather than the inland revenue the TV licensing people do have limited freedom to "board" private property.

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[smoker2]

I prefer to think of it as a subscription that gets you four TV channels, seven or eight top quality national radio stations, local radio stations, a stupendously good news media organization, and high-quality production values and no advertising.

Fine, if it was a voluntary subscription, which is isn't. Every program the BBC makes ends up on satellite, for which you pay a subscription.
Don't pretend that the BBC don't charge the satellite providers for the content either.

I think the BBC should be provided for like all the rest, i.e. they get their money from people who choose to subscribe. Using the government to force people to support a commercial service is too much.

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[Anonymous Coward]

ends up on satellite, for which you pay a subscription.

No, I don't.

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[Anonymous Coward]

Using the government to force people to support a commercial service is too much.

It isn't a commercial service. It's hard to see how you could have missed this considering that you were complaining about the fact that it isn't a commercial service.

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[Anonymous Coward]

van with antennas on top and what looked like police officers going building to building

I think this was the _very_ old way of doing things. The far better way is to simply look up all the addresses of people in the country, and then cross-reference that with addresses that have paid for a TV license. Then all those that don't have a license get checked out.

It's up to you if you actually let the "TV tax police" into your home, they have no legal right to enter your home without your permission, so you can answer the door and then simply not let them in.
Tip: Open the door and then close it behind you, so you're outside, this way they can't peer into your home while you're at the door and see a TV set, I believe if they have evidence that you haven't paid for a license and then they "accidently" see a TV set in your house while at the door, they can then report this and have evidence of you owning a TV with no license.

Re:UK has a yearly TV "tax"

[vyzar]

Technically, *OWNING* a TV in the UK without possessing a TV license is NOT ILLEGAL. It is only if you *USE* a TV in location without a valid TV license that you actually break the law.

This all comes back to the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 (and probably earlier legislation), in which it is an offence to use ANY wireless transmission or reception equipment without a suitable license issued by the Secretary of State, or where the specific use is covered by an exemption defined by the legislation/Secretary of State.

A suitable analogy would be that in the UK it is NOT ILLEGAL to own a vehicle for which the appropriate Vehicle Excise Duty (Road Tax in normal-speak!) has not been paid up to date, and the "tax disk" displayed on the vehicle as evidence of same.

It is ONLY ILLEGAL for an untaxed vehicle to "use" (ie park/drive on) the public highway.

In both cases it is the "user" who has the statutory responsibility that such use is covered by the appropriate license.

Therefore it is the responsibility of the TV Licensing Agency to "prove" that you were using a TV "receiver" (so that this covers VCR's and TV cards in PCs). Hence the "need" for the TV detector vans. The IT and databases just helps them target those resources properly.

One thing that many people are not aware of is that if you hire or sell TVs, or other associated equipment, you are required by law to inform the TVLA of the name and address of the hirer/purchaser. I'm not sure of the fine details of that particular bit of legislation, but it may well only apply to commercial entities.

Re:broadcasters, telecom and hardware manufacturer

[Technician]

Writers, directors, actors, yes.

Audience, no.

Wanna bet? Simply refuse to deal with hard to use content. It will show in the ratings. Ratings matter. Tell the sponsors. I wanted to watch the show, but I didn't because ....

Could not time shift, did not have the needed software upgrade, I dont' have a Windows computer, could not stream due to a proxy, subscription is exposing too much personal information and is an ID theft risk, I couldn't download and watch on my commute to work on the laptop, etc.

You do have a say. The question is; are there enough of you to be heard? Fear of not being heard is not a reason to not vote and speak up.

Re:Quit Complaining - And Read My Journal ;)

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally a media outlet is trying to embrace technology instead of calling their lawyers every 5 minutes, and all people can do is complain.

Well, this media outlet gets its money from a tax on every TV in the land. Regardless of whether you actually watch any of the shows it makes, I suspect this is the Beeb's thin end of the wedge for demanding a broadband tax on every computer in the Uk, regardless of whether you ever actualy download any of their DRM's material. Yes, I know you could pay per download of stuff you actually want, but that's not what the BBC is about. What the BBC is about is getting money from every actual or potential viewer, regardless of what they actually watch, if anything.

disclaimer: I've no TV. I've downloaded some streaming radio programs (countable on the fingers of one hand, excluding the thumb) using Mplayer to enamble me to save the Real streams and convert to something sensible.

More info about the TV License (tax)

[SuperBanana]

More information:

One guy who doesn't own a TV, but gets harassed by the TV Licensing Agency (which is actually a private company contracted by the BBC, to the tune of a quarter billion pounds a year): http://www.marmalade.net/lime/

Information about BBC revenue and expenditures, TVLA, etc: http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/international/bbc.htm l

This is fantastic

[Kev_Stewart]

Clearly they are being cautious with the content they're providing but this could be the start of something beautiful.

Brings a tear to this tired ol' Torrent seeders eye - so it does.

It is MY computer

[rtkluttz]

They still don't get it. DRM will still be unnacceptable.

It is MY computer and it should only delete something when I tell it to. No one else. It should not police me. It should not tell me what to do, I should tell it what to do. If I break the law using my computer, then I should be held responsible, but I should NOT be limited if I choose to use the computer in a fashion that some short sited company didn't plan on.

Re:It is MY computer

[LordSnooty]

It is MY computer and it should only delete something when I tell it to.

Even if the thing you buy only entitles you to keep it for 7 days? Can we trust you to delete it in time?

Re:It is MY computer

[wk633]

ok, how about this option- your player refuses to play it after 7 days. You can keep the file, it will just be encrypted. Think of it as a rental.

And yes, I know, the encryption will be broken etc etc. But for the sake of argument- if you beef is with the auto delete, that's not a big problem.

As for wanting to watch it more than a week later, I agree completely. I'd want that too. The providers are thinking of it more as a rental.

Re:It is MY computer

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, yeah, and it is THEIR content. Why does YOUR computer trump THEIR content? Answer me that one.

At the end of the day, if you don't agree that they can delete the content after 7 days, you don't get the service. It's pretty simple.

Also, having a Slashdot user ID of 244325 does not qualify you as being less short-sighted than the BBC.

Re:It is MY computer

[Mr. Cancelled]

DRM is always able to be circumvented. It's just a matter of how long it'll take, and how convenient the methods are. Not to mention that some quality degradation may occur, which wouldn't neccesarilly be the case with a straight digital-to-digital copy.

For instance, without knowing for sure (I haven't downloaded any of the BBC's content to try this), I'm guessing that converting to and from analog will remove the DRM. If this method doesn't work, it should give you some ideas about different things to try (it's removed DRM for me in the past):

You'll need 2 PC's, 1 with S-video out, and one with S-Video in.

1. Run the output of the "video out" PC through a cheap TBC unit, and back into the input of your 2nd PC
2. Hit play on one end, and record on the other, and Bob's your Uncle!

You could even run it through a TV to watch while you record it, if you wanted to!

Now this isn't the best setup if you're looking for perfect digital copies, but for 99% of the population, this'll meet the needs. Again, the point of all this is that DRM can always be circumvented. It's just a matter of how badly you want to do it, and what you're willing to go through for it.

If you're waiting for "does it all" software program to come along and let you un-DRM any DRM'd video, you'll probably be waiting for quite some time. If however, you're just looking to archive a copy for personal use, there's usually workarounds for these things.

For the record, you can optionally replace the "Play" PC above with any DVD player, and automatically archive un-Macrovisioned copies of your DVD's also! I think that the various software programs available do a quicker, and more efficient job of this, but the setup I've outlined above will work fine also, and you can make your copy while you're watching the video, if that's your thing.

Re:It is MY computer

[iainl]

I guess you're the one person who's really happy when InstallShield decides to mess up and leave all its temp files lying around, then? After all, we wouldn't want anything cleaning up files without asking you, would we?

Re:It is MY computer

[chowells]

Err, do you know what DRM stands for? It stands for "Digital Rights Management". By implementing an additional digital -> analogue -> analogue conversion of course you will remove DRM since it's concerned with protecting _digital_ content.

Also if you have a straight digital-to-digital copy and you aren't further compressing using a lossy compression algorithm there will be _zero_ loss of quality.

Re:It is MY computer

[Mr. Cancelled]

Err, do you know what DRM stands for? It stands for "Digital Rights Management". By implementing an additional digital -> analogue -> analogue conversion of course you will remove DRM since it's concerned with protecting _digital_ content.

That's why I love Slashdot... It's a place where you can freely exchange ideas, and tips without having to worry about smart-assed, holier than thou's coming by and trying to make themselves look smarter with their off the cuff "(Um|Er|Ahem), You know..." comments.

Oh shit! Wait, that's digg.com, isn't it! Slashdot's the one where all the wannabe smug guys try out their most belittling lines before using them to try and impress their IT counterparts. Damn... Wrong site!

So DRM stands for Digital rights Management, huh? And here I always thought it was short for "Do-Re-Mi". How stupid I feel now. Thanks for pointing out my ignorance Mr. Egotrip, sir! I will fly the straight and narrow now thanks to the likes of you.

Also if you have a straight digital-to-digital copy and you aren't further compressing using a lossy compression algorithm there will be _zero_ loss of quality.

Wow! You are full of obvious information today, aren't you? For the record, a straight digital-to-digital copy isn't possible due to the DRM, hence my workaround. But thanks for trying to parlay that into a "Stupid human" ego trip for yourself. Pat yourself smugly on the back for me too while you're at it.

Re:It is MY computer

[dave420]

but it's MY content - I pay my license fee. That means if you don't pay, you don't get to see it. I have no problem with that. I guess this is a good use of DRM ;)

Re:It is MY computer

[Anonymous Coward]

wow

I've only seen republicans miss a point by that much.

Re:It is MY computer

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's why I love Slashdot..."

you played the fool on a site with some intelligent people - getting pissy will only make you a pissy fool

"For the record, a straight digital-to-digital copy isn't possible due to the DRM"

your records are crap - when you play a drm file you watch a straight "digital-to-digital" copy and then when you rip the drm you get another "digital-to-digital" copy - i would advise you not to try ripping drm because you are liable to get whiteout on the screen

"hence my workaround"

YOUR WORKAROUND ??? you can't be serious plugging a VIDEO cable between to VIDEO ports is your WORKAROUND ?

I can see a hunched figure rapidly sketching pictures in a large pad. Every few minutes he flips a page and hits a key to start the next frame. For a moment he pauses. Dusty gears slowly turn in his head and then, a click. Thrusting his hands triumphantly into the air he exclaims; A CORD!

Re:It is MY computer

[Mr. Cancelled]

you played the fool on a site with some intelligent people - getting pissy will only make you a pissy fool

Intelligent people like yourself, who have to post their insults anonymously? Yeah... Keep telling yourself that you're important little man. Maybe someday someone other than your Mom will believe it too.

YOUR WORKAROUND ??? you can't be serious plugging a VIDEO cable between to VIDEO ports is your WORKAROUND ?

It is, and it works. Unlike your attempts at sarcasm, it would seem.

This is British

[Anonymous Coward]

There is the download and a agreement to delete, this will satify rights holders and copyrights lawyers that something has been done to defend the rights.
Of course what you do in the privacy of your own home is up to you.
So it is in fact as perfect as things will get for now. And a lot more perfect than it appears on the surface.
This will stimulate broadcasters to allow this for other shows as new funding models are rolled out more along the lines of product placement and show sponsorship than advertisement or viewing restriction.
The BBC is a public Service so it can innovate, but advertisers will soon realise that there is a huge rich technogadget buying alphageek trendsetting market wanting to watch whatever whenever and that more distribution iss very good for advertisers when products are embedded into the shows themselves.
Think of Transformers, He-man cartoons, specific breakfast cereals on soap opera tables and ask-jeeves referneces on the Simpsons - content restriction hurts adverts such as these.

Re:Quit Complaining - And Read My Journal ;)

[MartinG]

Downloadable shows will probably never be free without the show including some form of DRM or advertising.

That's what we keep being told. But I choose as part of my participation to boycott drm'd products and to support open formats. I went out of my way a while back to spend more on a portable music player that can play oggs.

The trouble here though, is that because I own a television I have to pay the BBC for the content anyway whether I like it or not, but I still can't use it on my os and hardware platform of choice.

How is that fair? I'm left with very little choice.

I will keep on using the bittorrent downloads thanks.

(NB. I'm talking about BBC shows only. I download them because I have paid for that content. I see nothing morally wrong with that.)

Re:Quit Complaining - And Read My Journal ;)

[kingdon]

Well, my local NPR radio station here in California is offering the radio SHARK as a premium you get for donating money. (The radio SHARK is a tuner which receives radio programs and records them to a computer; as far as I can tell from their website, there is no DRM).

Don't know if the station had some heavy discussion about DRM, or even thought about it, but it would appear that not everyone in the content production and distribution business are as worried about pushing DRM as we assume.

But all that should matter is...

[rabblerabble]

At least they can watch the re-runs of Red Dwarf for 7 whole days.

Re:Quit Complaining - And Read My Journal ;)

[Anonymous Coward]

Downloadable shows will probably never be free without the show including some form of DRM or advertising... get used to it
The British public has already paid for it through their TV-tax so why should they "get used to it" at all?. They can take their damn DRM and shove it. Would I say if I actually were a British citizen :-).

Re:broadcasters, telecom and hardware manufacturer

[rob_squared]

Nope.

Conversely

[YrWrstNtmr]

If you can get the same show again and again, whenever you want, what is the need to 'keep' a copy? Why not delete after X days? Prevents space problems on less than clueful users machines, and satisfies the copyright owners need for a little bit of control on the content.

The only reason I could see would be space-shifting onto another medium (play on your portable DVD player, for instance)

Re:Conversely

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it consumes bandwidth and you have to wait.

BBC iMP based on Kontiki Windoze software

[Anonymous Coward]

The BBC have based their iMP on Kontiki, which last time I checked, was Windows only, WMP DRM. So all you Mac and Linux license payers will have to wait. And wait...

Kontiki's press release can be found here: http://www.kontiki.com/company/press/2004/pressrel ease041214.html

Also, AFAIK, the BBC uses IP address geo-coding to make sure that BBC content is only available to UK residents and license payers.

Re:BBC iMP based on Kontiki Windoze software

[otherniceman]

Kontiki users who choose not install a client can receive content through standard client-free delivery (http://www.kontiki.com/products/deliverymanager/i ndex.html). I don't know if the BBC is taking that option.

Yes, according to the article they are using Geo-IP to ensure content is only avilable to UK residents. They will probably need some registration to restrict the content to license payers though.

Yeah, it could be better

[FhnuZoag]

Yeah. That's my thoughts, too.

An alternative would be to download encrypted versions of the file, and have the player grab a decoding key from the server or something every few days or so. (Given permission from the user, of course.) After a few days, the server will stop generating encryption keys for old files, so the user's data will be useless, but he will still be in control over his own computer. (And it might be harder for Warez doodz to crack the mechanism.) Is this a good idea?

Also, it would be nice if the BBC open sources their player, so people can make a linux client.

Re:Yeah, it could be better

[NetNifty]

I very much doubt the BBC will open the source of their player, at least while DRM is still used - it would be much too easy to work around; For example if the player grabs the decryption key from the server as you guessed, I could just stick some extra code in to cache the keys.

Someone tell...

[SlashDread]

the mpaa... they might learn something from this totally newfangled e-idea of a bussiness model based on TV over the Intarwebby.

Not like TiVo

[jd 0001]

The point of this system is that you can download any BBC content at any time that you like - you don't have to "record" it off of a live broadcast. My understanding is that the BBC is very keen to come up with a cross-platform means playing the stuff (hence their own iMP). The biggest sticking point is that the content will only be available to UK TV-licence holders. See the articles on the Register or Inquirer

Re:Not like TiVo

[Some Bitch]

The biggest sticking point is that the content will only be available to UK TV-licence holders.

Why is that a sticking point? If they don't restrict it to UK IP addresses (or some equivalent) there'll be uproar from the UK population who paid for it all.

We've got that in the Netherlands, but better...

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess watching shows in Dutch isn't much use to most of the Slashdot crowd, but you could check out http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/ (translates to something like "I missed that broadcast".nl).
Our public (3) and local (?) channels put every show they own on there after it's been broadcasted. And they don't delete 'em after 7 days either. It's great if you'r in bed, stuffed with painkillers, like me right now.

Absolutely Correct!!!!

[jrushton]

This is exactly why we pay a license!

Theres NO advertising on the BBC, not one damn second of it! No coke ads, no nike no ads, nothing!!

I pay for a TV license, and this is what you get. We pay for innovation and programmes without and commerical bias or slant. BBC television is absolutely brilliant. In fact Ill openly admit I have BBC News 24 on for most of the day.

This isnt some "oh no RIAA" crap. This is offering innovative services that we want, and finding ways to improve the way license payers view tv.

Long live the BBC!

Re:Absolutely Correct!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, actually, the BBC is crawling with adverts. You can't escape 'em even on Radio 4. Adverts for the BBC, that is - you know the sort of thing, endless bloody trailers and who knows what else.

another incorrect use of "content"

[brre]

After seven days, the content will be automatically deleted from the user's computers.

No, after seven days the show will be deleted. Or the audio and/or video will be deleted. The content, if any, will not be deleted any more than the format, presentation, or volume.

I though they already trialed this...

[markana]

with that Dr. Who episode a couple of months ago...

oh. never mind...

Re:broadcasters, telecom and hardware manufacturer

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't have time this week and the episode was deleted, so I gave up because I couldn't follow anymore.

It's to do with Guild issues...

[lxt]

...it's basically because the various Guilds and Unions, in particular the Writer's Guild of Great Britain, are extremely unhappy about the lack of repeat fees for such on demand streaming. I believe (although the last time I saw a BBC radio contract it was before streaming) that the writers on radio shows that feature on the "listen again" section of the BBC website get a "digital fee" included in their contract.

30 Days...

[shmlco]

If this is in fact a recorder a 30-day time limit (if you have to have one) seems much more reasonable, especially when you consider one of the reasons for having one is to watch shows you've recorded during a one/two-week vacation. As is, it would delete them before you even get back...

Re:30 Days...

[Anonymous Coward]

In the future would you please glance at the article (or even just the summary) before you assume what it is about?

Windows only??

[zaphod_es]

The BBC use Macs not Windows. This would be obvious to anyone who ever watched the TV news where the newscasters each have an iBook in front of them.
The Apple log is blanked out of course - no advertising.

Of course they do support Windows users as well.

Re:Windows only??

[electrichamster]

Erm, actually you're wrong - those are Dell X300's.

Re:Windows only??

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I've definately seen the Apple logos indented into the laptops.

Re:Windows only??

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought you said they were covered up...

Automatically deleted

[t_allardyce]

Sounds like press office bullshit or something, it would be a very poor system if it was based on the concept of the program deleting a file after a certain date - its not like the user couldn't make a copy! I think its more likely the content will be encrypted and the key will reside on their server - you will have to connect every time you watch, its the only way to do this sort of thing with any shred of competence. The key will be recoverable with a little effort, so a crack program will be out within days of the launch. Now they could cover their asses if they personalised the content - eg imprinted some flaws in various frames, something that could be used to identify who originally downloaded the video if it ended up on P2P, but that should be breakable by simply differencing the frames of 2 or more videos, merging images etc, so another crack program then. All in all it should be interesting, the BBC have some decent R&D so I don't expect the usual crap, maybe they have something reasonable?

no one has access to the BBC's entire library YET

[Anonymous Coward]

they want to open their ENTIRE LIBRARY via an online system

this is a TEST OF THAT SYSTEM

pull your head out of your arse and RTFAs

seeder lag

[Anonymous Coward]

So if it gets deleted off all the seeders after 7 days, how are subsequent people supposed to download it?

What's the point?

[vanyel]

I'm running almost a week behind on my Tivo right now. And in any case, on principle, I simply won't use anything that's going to be deleting stuff automatically. I want to watch stuff on *my* schedule, not anyone elses.

Re:What's the point?

[dave420]

You pay for your tivo. That's the difference.

Sign up for the trial here...

[Angostura]

This is interesting, thanks to Google, I found the trial sign-up and download page here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/imp/client/eula.html

It says it doesn't currently support the Mac, but having poked around the Kontiki site, it seems they take Mac support quite seriously.

I'm on a Mac, so I haven't tried downloading from the link above.

Okay, trial period? Get your debuggers ready...

[pla]

BBC will use this trial to iron out any outstanding rights issues

So remember, kids, even if you come up with a totally trivial means of defeating their DRM, don't release it until AFTER they have irreversably committed to this!

Video / Audio grabber ?

[bushboy]

At a pinch I'm sure you could use some sort of screen / audio grabbing software as an initial "solution"

Your totally right anyway - it'll be cracked soon enough.

Re:Video / Audio grabber ?

[LiquidCoooled]

Why does EVERYTHING have to be cracked.

The BBC is doing something LIGHTYEARS further along than any other large network.

I can miss my favorite show and watch anytime in the next week.
Why do I need to crack it when it does what I need?

If your going to say "well in America we can't get it", then I have to say "Fsck off and bug your own TV companies to do similar".

They already have some stuff available

[hairykrishna]

There's already some BBC content available to all. I missed the Newsnight debate on nuclear power last night and was pleased to discover that I could stream it off the BBC news site today. It was poor quality video (although the audio was fine) and it was realplayer format but it was nice anyway.

Re:broadcasters, telecom and hardware manufacturer

[SamSim]

They control what we watch. Not how we watch it. Keep up.

Already done in Norway?

[Echnin]

NRK, the Norwegian government-run TV already offer high-quality streams of every single show they produce, including newscasts, for free. It's an excellent service; if I miss a show, I'll just watch it online. How the BBC claims that this is revolutionary I cannot understand. http://www.nrk.no/

Working class London accent

[Dogtanian]

Re:Billie's "odd" use of f and v in place of 'th'.

I don't have a lot of bovver understanding it, but I'm used to them fings anyway... :)

It's part of the working-class London accent. I'd guess that includes the modern cockney accent, but I'm not a linguist nor a Londoner, so don't ask me.

If you want to hear more of it, watch 'EastEnders', if you can. But not for too long, because EastEnders is bloody 'orrible :-6

Smeg...

[MatB]

Smeg wasn't used as a swear word at all in England until Red Dwarf, and still isn't, really. The Grant/Naylor used it as an innoffensive word that could be a swear word but would get past any censors.

I come from a part of England where accents vary by reasonable degrees 5 miles apart, although everyone's gone estuary now :-(

Re:Smeg...

[zakezuke]

Smeg wasn't used as a swear word at all in England until Red Dwarf, and still isn't, really. The Grant/Naylor used it as an innoffensive word that could be a swear word but would get past any censors.

Point was because most Americans are circumcised the smeg or smegma isn't in common use... as an exclamation or otherwise. Funny thing about not having foreskins.

although everyone's gone estuary now :-(

Estuary? You mean the tap water is so bad they fetch it from the mouth of the river? I can see how that might affect how one talks.

Re:Smeg...

[MatB]

Yeah, but it wasn't in use over here either; I'd never heard the term until episode one, took ages finding out what it meant (we had to find a better dictionary at school...)

read only media?

[Anonymous Coward]

wouldn't it be rather hard for an episode to be deleted if I burned it to a CD?

Re:Quit Complaining - And Read My Journal ;)

[bit01]

I'd much rather have DRM

The problem is that DRM is an all-or-nothing proposition. Once a company is allowed to assert that level of control the free market is dead.

First sale doctrine? Dead. Fair use? Dead. Compatible competition? Dead. Transfer between unapproved devices? Dead. Backup? Dead. Long term use? Dead. Fair reviews with excerpts? Dead. The vendor doesn't like you? Your content is dead. Contract terms stay the same after delivery? Dead. Reverse engineering? Dead. Copyright expiry and the public domain? Dead. Hidden manipulation of the consumer? Very much alive (e.g. Belkin router's "accidental" web page redirects).

DRM gives the vendor unlimited powers to manipulate the terms of the contract to the detriment of the consumer. And don't think for one minute that, over the long term, they won't do exactly that to maximise their revenue while minimising the net benefit to the consumer. Coupled with the IP economic network effect, where every IP market eventually gains a monopoly/oligopoly player due to-cost-per-copy being essentially zero and development costs being amortised over the number of copies sold, it's bad news all round.

I would support DRM (and the DMCA) if their were strong legal safeguards in place to ensure the free market (capitalism!) was not going to be hindered in any way.

Unfortunately, since history shows that the legal system is completely incapable of dealing with DRM because of the technical complexities involved and the ease with which baffle-them-with-bullshit works then I currently cannot support DRM in any form.

---

Keep your options open!

Personal use

[liam_p]

I've always hoped that at some point the entire BBC archive would become available. After all, the public did pay for it, didn't they?

Anyway, back to the point. I'm sure in the UK we have the right to record a broadcast onto say vcr and play it back at another time, without a 7 day restriction? Perhaps someone will correct me here...

Nope

[CarpetShark]

No, we should have access to the entire library -- at least of home-grown stuff --, since we pay for the entire organisation, but in fact they're implementing DRM on this, which will probably mean that it won't even be available on my chosen platform.

deletion after seven days ... better than video!

[pbhj]

The copyright situation is such that for TV broadcasts in the UK the only acceptable use of a 'video' recording is for time shifting - making a library of shows (even for private use) is illegal.

Presumably, the BBC is attempting to enforce the copyright status-quo. I'll be interested to see what copyright information is given to viewers.

Strangely I've never heard of anyone who video-taped a show deleting it immediately that they had viewed it. I'm sure it would be the downfall of the audio-visual entertainment industry if we kept watching tapes over again ....

What would...

[scrwvwls]

be preventing the design of software that would capture BBC media player content?