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NASA Offers Reward for Extracting O2 from Moondust

DoubleWhopper writes "Break out the duct tape and paper clips. NASA has announced a $250,000 reward to the "first team of scientists to invent a way to extract breathable oxygen from lunar soil". Wired reports, "Inventors who attempt the Moon Regolith Oxygen (or MoonROx) challenge will have just eight hours to extract at least 11 pounds of breathable oxygen from a simulated form of lunar soil.""

276 comments

  1. 250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dirt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Isn't that a bit of a weak prize? This would seem to be a cornerstone achievement in the progression of off planet science.

  2. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  3. First team of scientists? by Timesprout · · Score: 4, Funny

    Dear NASA

    I have a small team, and I do mean small team that is quite good at extracting things from the ground. Does it matter if they are not scientists?

    Yours etc.

    Snow White

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
    1. Re:First team of scientists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never thought I'd say it, but the bar has been lowered.

    2. Re:First team of scientists? by jd · · Score: 2, Funny

      It would need to be. The dwarves are only about 2' tall, and can't reach their drinks otherwise.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  4. I'll top that... by Cylix · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'll give 200 Million Dollars for the first team who can complete my contest.

    "Turn Lead Into Gold"

    (Winning contestants may see light of day again... jk... not really)

    --
    "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    1. Re:I'll top that... by cyberfunk2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's been done, with a supercollider.. by bombarding lead atoms with the appropriate particles to knock out enough subatomic particles to bring the proton (and hence electron) count to 79, which is Au's atomic #.

      There is a report (1972) in which Soviet physicists at a nuclear research facility near Lake Baikal in Siberia accidentally discovered a "reaction" for turning lead into gold when they found the lead shielding of an experimental reactor had changed to gold.

      Note: any reaction tranmuting one element into another is by definition no longer chemistry, but nuclear physics.

      (I'm a chemist).

    2. Re:I'll top that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about lead, but I hear there's a band doing something similar with music.

    3. Re:I'll top that... by fireboy1919 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The sad thing about that is that the new gold is so fantastically radioactive. And when it stops being radioactive?

      You guessed it.

      It's back to being lead.

      It's the real-life equivalent of fairy gold.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    4. Re:I'll top that... by aslate · · Score: 4, Funny

      The sad thing about that is that the new gold is so fantastically radioactive. And when it stops being radioactive?

      Actually, the real downer is the fact that it costs more to make the gold then it is worth.

    5. Re:I'll top that... by cyberfunk2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The new gold does not nessicarily have to be radioactive... The stable isotope of gold is Au 197 from lead.. it would appear the decay pattern leads to Au 194, an unstable isotope. However, if we start from mecury and force it to capture neutrons, the resulting decay chain can produce Au 197. Neutrons to attack the Hg would need at least ~9 MeV (within the ability of nuclear reactors, but the resulting gold would be contaminated w/ other radioisotopes)). I'm not sure if an experiment has been done in sufficient quantity to synthesize Au 197 from Hg.

    6. Re:I'll top that... by iMySti · · Score: 1

      Y'know its pretty cheap to turn lead into gold. Once you get a hold of the proper equipment (which will cost under 200 million)

    7. Re:I'll top that... by synaptic · · Score: 1

      Neutron activated radioactive gold isotopes decay into mercury, not lead.

    8. Re:I'll top that... by vwjeff · · Score: 3, Funny

      The sad thing about that is that the new gold is so fantastically radioactive.

      So what you are saying is that I should give my ex-girlfriend a ring made out of this gold.

      I don't see anything sad about that.

    9. Re:I'll top that... by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      She'd lose a finger. Who knows? She may even give it to you. ;-)

    10. Re:I'll top that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      more to make the gold then it is worth

      "than".

    11. Re:I'll top that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but isn't mercury even more expensive than lead? I think this is because it's so hard to get mercury, seeing as how it's so close to the Sun and all.
      --
      Yes, I am drunk. How did you know?

    12. Re:I'll top that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, usually radioactive things go DOWN to lead, not up.

      I'd imagine that it would shed it's electrons first.

    13. Re:I'll top that... by vwjeff · · Score: 1

      Then she could put it in a bowl of Wendy's chili and sue them for...One Hundred Billion Dollars...moo-ha-ha

  5. NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by HillaryWBush · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, is that 11 pounds on earth, or on the moon? And if you can do this, why accept just $250,000 for what could be the biggest invention in human history?

    1. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's 11 pounds in British currency, I presume.

    2. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      the problem isnt extracting the oxygen, it's already possible. the problem is extracting it with limited time and power.

    3. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by Dinosaur+Neil · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, the challenge is for 5kg (mass) of O2, but the units just got dumbed down for those who don't to metric. Extracting O2 from soil is done all the time on Earth, we just tend to treat the oxygen as an unnecessary byproduct while we keep the useful things (e.g. most metals); this will probbably not be "the biggest invention in human history"...

      --
      "I'm a scientist! I don't think, I observe!" - Dr. Clayton Forrester
    4. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by fm6 · · Score: 1
      ...if you can do this, why accept just $250,000 for what could be the biggest invention in human history?
      It's only big if you're founding a lunar colony, and I don't see that happening in our lifetimes. That would require regular, safe passenger and freight service into deep space, and nobody's every been serious about funding that. Instead of we've expensive demos like the Apollo and Shuttle programs, which both have significant accomplishments, but neither of which have done jack towards creating a real infrastructure for space travel.

      NASA's number 1 priority these days is justifying their continued existence. Which is hard to do when your job is space exploration, and your budget doesn't extend to much in the way of actual exploration of space. The solution? Contests!

    5. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by jd · · Score: 1

      Pre-1969 pounds, pound note/coins, or pounds sterling? And can I have my O2 in gold sovereigns?

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    6. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by StarsAreAlsoFire · · Score: 3, Informative

      Extracting O2 from soil is done all the time on Earth, we just tend to treat the oxygen as an unnecessary byproduct while we keep the useful things (e.g. most metals);

      And on this contest it sounds like the byproducts will be aluminium and silicon... and those will be discarded. Which is why I think the contest is poorly worded, and will lead to an inferior 'winning entry'.

      Why throw away ultra pure silicon and aluminium just to get oxygen? With a slight increase in complexity you get a sweet refinery that can produce O2, Si and Al, as well as iron and titanium in much smaller quantities.

      Sample rock break down, I figure this is *fairly* representative, but I just picked a random rock from the below link (by weight %):

      SiO2 - 44.94
      Al2O3 - 35.71
      CaO - 20.57
      Na2O - 0.384
      MgO - 0.53
      Fe - 0.2
      Ti - 0.018

      Here is a page on the moon rock samples:
      http://www-curator.jsc.nasa.gov/curator/lunar/lsc/ index.htm

      Each link is a PDF which contains, amoung other things, a breakdown of the mineral composition of the rock in question.

    7. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by flawedgeek · · Score: 1

      You can say that again.....they've been slashdotted.

      --
      My other Sig is .40 caliber.
    8. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by DittoACE2000 · · Score: 0

      The challenge is actually to extract five kilograms (=11lbs.), and that's a measure of mass, regardless of gravity.

      Pounds, on the other hand, is a unit of force not mass - even though it's often confused as one.

      In the imperial system the analog to the kilogram is the slug, defined as:

      the mass of a free body which if acted upon by a force of 1 pound would experience an acceleration of 1 foot per square second; thus approximately 32.16 pounds. http://roland.lerc.nasa.gov/~dglover/dictionary/s. html>

      To answer your question: It's 5 kilograms, and that's anywhere. (Not concerning relativistic issues :)

    9. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      "And can I have my O2 in gold sovereigns?"

      Breathing gold may not be the best idea, especially if you're partly mechanical according to this documentary. http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/episodeguide/r evengecybermen/

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    10. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by jd · · Score: 1

      Oh, I'm safe then. I'm part-Zygon.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    11. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by jdigriz · · Score: 1

      a) The Moon is not deep space, it's a bit over one light-second away. Nasa's Deep Space Network is used for craft tens of light-minutes away.
      b) during all Earthbound colonization periods, modes of travel were neither safe nor regular. Why start now?
      c) Nasa's number 1 priority right now is Return to Flight for the shuttle so as to complete the space station.
      Nasa's other #1 priority is to design the Crew Excursion Vehicle to return to the Moon and then go to Mars.

      Mining lunar resources for use in space and on the Moon is an avowed national space policy laid out by the President himself on January 14, 2004. Extracting lunar oxygen would be a large part of that. Now there are a lot of things that can go wrong between now and 2014 which is the earliest point on the schedule for possible landings but to assume that they will go wrong in such a way as to prevent lunar colonization in our lifetimes? I think you seriously undersestimate their chances!

    12. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by dotgain · · Score: 1

      Laden or unladen?

    13. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by nounderscores · · Score: 1

      who's yo daddy?

    14. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > why accept just $250,000 for what could be the biggest invention in human history?

      The biggest invention in humin history will be the whorp drive. A whorp drive will get us to the stars. A device that extracts oxigen from moondust will only make it some what less expensive to live on the Moon.

    15. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by Mr+Z · · Score: 1
      Pounds, on the other hand, is a unit of force not mass - even though it's often confused as one.

      Of course, leave it to the nutty civil and mechanical engineers to have it both ways. They have two units: lbm and lbf. Pound mass and pound force, respectively. 1 lbm = 1 lbf * 32.2 ft/sec/sec. UGH! (We rounded the 32.16 up to 32.2 for our computations. Kinda like rounding to 9.8m/sec^2 in metric.)

      When I took Statics and Dynamics, I can't tell you how frustrated I got with pound mass vs. pound force, and how often I'd have an extra or missing 32.2 pop into our out of somewhere. More than once I'd convert everything into metric for a problem to verify my answer.

      In that same course, the prof was very particular about whether you used lb*ft or ft*lb as your units for an answer--one was for torque and the other was for work. It gets nuttier: Inside the cover of our textbook, in the conversion table, there was an entry for "1 lb*ft = 1 ft*lb." I kid you not.

      --Joe (A nutty EE.)

      PS. Am I the only one that finds it frustrating that Slashdot won't let you use most HTML entities? Math posts are so ugly as a result. I tried using · and ² in the above and it didn't work. Fortunately & works...

    16. Re:NASA's budget cuts are starting to show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you can do this, why accept just $250,000 for what could be the biggest invention in human history?

      NASA is explicitly forbidden by congress from offerring more than $250,000 for a single prize. They're currently trying to get this limit raised to several million.

  6. Sweet. by hydopower · · Score: 0

    Earlier today we heard about space tourism and this looks a lot like the beginnings of investigating the construction of a moon base. I don't know what this means really, but I am enjoying the slow march towards science fiction.

    1. Re:Sweet. by name773 · · Score: 1

      "I don't know what this means really, but I am enjoying the slow march towards science fiction."

      there are some science fiction scenarios that i'm sure very few of us want to march toward.

    2. Re:Sweet. by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      Careful what you wish for, the last show I can think of that was set on a "moon base" involved a rather serious accident with a large stockpile of discarded nuclear weapons. Personally, I like the moon where it is.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  7. In related news... by Robotdog · · Score: 5, Funny

    Maiden offers first child for someone to spin gold from straw.

    1. Re:In related news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seems more reasonable than turning something into gold.

    2. Re:In related news... by jd · · Score: 1

      Fairy tales are like musicals. Hair today, gollum tomorrow.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    3. Re:In related news... by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      Small technical point: a "maiden" doesn't have children, nor has she had the opportunity to make any.

      So I suppose that makes it a fair deal...

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    4. Re:In related news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heard about her. Don't trust her, she won't pay up.

    5. Re:In related news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "first child" does not have to exist. yet.

  8. not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    its a lot more than just o2 that we need. The planet in question needs to be able to keep hold of an atmosphere. This means it needs a magnetic field like we do to divert solar winds, so they dont strip all of our air away. Does the moon even have a magnetic field any bit like ours? I dont know for sure, but I bet it does not.

    1. Re:not really by InsideTheAsylum · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I imagine that their scope is much smaller. They aren't trying to create an astosphere but rather just trying to get breatheable air whatever facility that they might be staying in. You're also correct, the moon cannot support an atmosphere.

    2. Re:not really by springbox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We won't need to keep an atmosphere around the planet if people live in structures on the moon only.

    3. Re:not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to bubbleboy.

    4. Re:not really by eric76 · · Score: 1

      We'd also need more gravity to hold the atmosphere to the moon.

      It is unlikely that anyone in their right mind would try to create a regular atmosphere around the moon.

    5. Re:not really by ZackSchil · · Score: 1

      That sounds like a challenge...

    6. Re:not really by ceejayoz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Uh, isn't your post sorta like saying we should never try space travel because we'd have to fill the universe with breathable oxygen?

    7. Re:not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having a Gilda Radner moment are we? They want the process for extracting oxygen for a lunar base not terriforming. The moon quite obviously can't be terriformed but that was never the point. It's doubtful Mars could ever be made Earthlike for similar reasons. The goal with Mars would be to get it similar to the top of Mount Everest or better. Making Mars liveable with minimal equipment would be a huge advance.

    8. Re:not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      huh, just to let you know Mars does not have a magnetic field yet it has a an atmosphere. In fact you do not need a magnetic field to have an atmosphere. I think you've been watching to many movies.

    9. Re:not really by dotgain · · Score: 1

      I'm even offering a $250,000 reward!

    10. Re:not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the time for a full of decay on mars for an atmosphere we would place there is something on the order of 10000 years, and one would hope we could put another one there at that point

    11. Re:not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It is unlikely that anyone in their right mind would try to create a regular atmosphere around the moon."

      We're not talking about people in their right minds. We're talking about the government.

    12. Re:not really by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      Mars' atmospheric pressure is MUCH lower than Earth's though. This is due to a couple intertwined factors.

      Mainly, Mars' lower gravity combined with the lack of a significant protective magnetosphere has allowed the solar wind to strip Mars of most of its atmosphere. What remains is what little Mars can hold onto. Some fun reading if you're up for it.

  9. One of these days, Alice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bang! Zoom! To the moon, Alice, to the moon!

    1. Re:One of these days, Alice by wed128 · · Score: 1

      have you seen the new trailers for the new honeymooners movie? it stars Cedric the Entertainer. travesty i say!

    2. Re:One of these days, Alice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn right! It should be that "intern" guy from the Jay Leno show.

  10. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Cylix · · Score: 4, Funny

    Don't worry...

    I've already applied for all the necessary patents.

    It really doesn't matter who wins the contest... I'm already the winner.

    --
    "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
  11. Thinking "out of the box" by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

    Can we just menace the gas company execs with a big lump of moon rock?

    "Give me all your gas or else!"

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:Thinking "out of the box" by Timesprout · · Score: 1

      Slashdot is really not the place to be discussing your fart inhaling fetish.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
  12. Darn, I was only able to extract ozone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I guess it's back to square one for me.

    1. Re:Darn, I was only able to extract ozone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no no - just add chlorine and you're good to go

  13. When can I get a condo? by multi-flavor-geek · · Score: 1

    Do I have to sign up now to get an apartment on the moon, or should I wait. Think about the back-pod telescope views you would have from your patio. Yes it would be really cold in the nighttime and really hot in the day, but I am from Minnesota, kinda use to that.
    If you got enough oxygen maybe Google could build the Coprinicus center up there!
    But in the meantime it is really cool that this science work is going on. I just wish I could be one of the unnamed grad students working on the project, although I suppose first I would have to go back to school and be a grad student.

    --
    Like arts? Like cheesy little Indie mags? Check out www.artwerkmag.com, and don't laugh at the bad coding please.
    1. Re:When can I get a condo? by nomadic · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes it would be really cold in the nighttime and really hot in the day, but I am from Minnesota, kinda use to that.

      Would you be able to handle the crushing loneliness, the bleak emptiness, and the lack of human culture? Oh wait, right, Minnesota, you probably would...

  14. 1337? by tratten · · Score: 0, Redundant

    MoonROxxorz!

    1. Re:1337? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and it's cool too.

    2. Re:1337? by hunterx11 · · Score: 1
      Surely you meant to say, "THE MOON RULZ #1."

      There's less gravity on the Moon than on your Earth; I don't know if your feeble mind can comprehend that. Our vertical leap is beyond measure.

      --
      English is easier said than done.
    3. Re:1337? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      There's less gravity on the Moon than on your Earth; I don't know if your feeble mind can comprehend that. Our vertical leap is beyond measure.

      Earth Men Can't Jump. Coming to a theater near you!

  15. this looks too easy... by thenewcloo · · Score: 2, Informative

    this seems pretty easy to do. according to a published paper (http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/HumanExplore/Exploration /EXLibrary/DOCS/EIC050.HTML), JSC-1 contains several oxides including SiO2 and CaO.

  16. Pounds? by dj245 · · Score: 1

    Lb-mass or Lb-force? On earth it makes no difference, but we're talking moondust here. Those NASA guys and their units, you would think they would know better.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    1. Re:Pounds? by David+Horn · · Score: 2

      Yes, the rest of the world uses kilograms.

      --
      PocketGamer.org - For the gamer on the go!
    2. Re:Pounds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Those NASA guys and their units, you would think they would know better.

      Gee, let's see... I can either believe that NASA doesn't know the difference, or that "dj245" is an idiot. Tough call!

    3. Re:Pounds? by nacturation · · Score: 1

      Gee, let's see... I can either believe that NASA doesn't know the difference, or that "dj245" is an idiot. Tough call!

      Given that one of the Mars probes crashed because NASA mixed up metric units with a set of units derived from the ancient British empire, I think your tough call may not be so tough anymore.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    4. Re:Pounds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      oh lay off of NASA for that. NASA had subcontracted work to Lockheed-Martin. The mistake that cost tax-payers millions of dollars was made because firstly, interns make mistakes, and secondly, L-M didn't check their work before passing it back to NASA.

      yes, NASA made the mistake of trusting the parameters and missed the error, but let's spread the blame evenly.

    5. Re:Pounds? by stewby18 · · Score: 4, Informative

      From wikipedia:

      If neither "avoirdupois" nor "troy" is specified, the international pound (avoirdupois) is meant and is by law the only proper definition in the United States

      So the answer seems pretty clearly to be mass. It's even more clear if you read the actual NASA page about it, which gives it in kilograms, rather than blaming NASA for Wired's use of a marginally ambiguous unit.

    6. Re:Pounds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ancient British Empire, or emphemeral French Republic -- which would you trust with your measurements?

    7. Re:Pounds? by metlin · · Score: 1


      George W Bush!!

    8. Re:Pounds? by Punboy · · Score: 1

      Well, they /are/ going to extracting it on Earth in this test. However you are right, they should have instead measured it in volume at pressure instead of weight. What is the average airspeed of a laiden swallow? A earth-laiden or a moon-laiden swallow? AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

      --
      If you like what I've said here, and want to read more, go to http://www.krillrblog.com
    9. Re:Pounds? by Punboy · · Score: 1

      Yes, but is that earth-kilos or moon-kilos? As I said in another post, the amount should be given in volume at pressure. for example, 20 cubic feet @ 1 atmospheres

      --
      If you like what I've said here, and want to read more, go to http://www.krillrblog.com
    10. Re:Pounds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The kilogram is a unit of mass, not weight. Thus it is a prefectly valid measurement. More so then volume and pressure, because you would at least also need temperature for that, hence STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure).

      However at that point you're just overcomplicating things and should have used kilograms to start with. . .

    11. Re:Pounds? by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      One kilo on the moon is the same as one kilo on a white dwarf is the same as one kilo on earth.
      Just one kilo.

      To get the force needed to lift, just multiply with your local gravity, e.g. 9.81 N/kg on earth.

      Is the concept of "mass" so difficult to grasp?

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    12. Re:Pounds? by Rostin · · Score: 1

      For a pure, single phase substance, two intensive variables specify all others. If a molar or specific volume and pressure are specified, the temperature is set. You don't get to choose it, too.

      This is called the Gibbs Phase Rule.

    13. Re:Pounds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However you are right, they should have instead measured it in volume at pressure instead of weight.

      Luckily they gave the measurement in mass, not weight.

  17. Quantities... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Assuming 1G and 1atm that's approximately 3750 litres of O2 (I think my calculations are correct. If they aren't I'm sure someone will be quick to point out); to me at least that sounds a lot for a tech demo, I'd think you'd need some heavy and therefore expensive equipment to produce that much oxygen, which could also make a fair dent in how much of the prize is taken home.

    Any company funding this is probably going to want patents. Maybe that's NASA's plan: convince researchers who want to take the prize home themselves to try this with company funding, give the prize to the researchers, license the patent from the company at a cost lower than doing the work themselves, leave the company to make money from other commercial spacefaring entities. It could work...

    1. Re:Quantities... by leonmergen · · Score: 1

      Any company funding this is probably going to want patents. Maybe that's NASA's plan: convince researchers who want to take the prize home themselves to try this with company funding, give the prize to the researchers, license the patent from the company at a cost lower than doing the work themselves, leave the company to make money from other commercial spacefaring entities. It could work...

      For something that they can/will depend on this heavily, it seems rather silly to take into account that another company will have the patents... it makes you dependable of that company, which is never ever a good thing.

      --
      - Leon Mergen
      http://www.solatis.com
    2. Re:Quantities... by eric76 · · Score: 1

      But NASA is the government. Part of it, anyways.

      What do you bet that if they had to do it, they could trounce any patents?

      Of course, they won't have to do it. With government funding, they would be willing to pay far higher than any corporation for the same thing. It's not like it's real money for them.

    3. Re:Quantities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you owe me 5 bucks

    4. Re:Quantities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's what you get for dealing with these "referral" assholes.

    5. Re:Quantities... by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Remember that solid forms of matter take up MUCH less space than gaseious forms of matter. If you look at the chemical composition of the regolith, you can find out the % that is oxygen and thus extrapolate the minimum amouht of regolith that could produce the required oxygen provided you can come up with an ideal reaction. the "infrastructure" required shouldn't be very many orders bigger than the raw materials themselves, no? also, there are 1000 liters in a cubic meter. so 3.7 cubic meters is not all that much. I don't think you could fill a weather balloon with that much.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    6. Re:Quantities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pattents don't apply on other planets. The Mars Rover violated I don't know how many, but since its off planet, nothing anyone can do.

    7. Re:Quantities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bush's form of government likes giving handouts to private companies. It is his form of welfare to his cronies: corporations who are happy to give large kickbacks to Republican campaigns.

  18. That was my science fair project! by dyfet · · Score: 2, Interesting
    When I was in seventh grade, that was actually my science fair project (true story, I guess that was ?1975?). Oxygen from moon rocks. Hint: I used a nice big concave mirror I convinced the school to get for me, and as one can imagine, I had a lot of fun with it! Soon thereafter I lost interest though, once I discovered the far greater joy of homemade Thermite. I will take my $250K now please, thank you very much!


    1. Re:That was my science fair project! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your anecdote is lacking in details. How did your sharks with laser... er, concave mirror accomplish the task?

  19. 5 kg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RTFA. That's mass, not weight.

  20. Re:Moon Sweet Moon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NASA gave the exact same problem to my undergraduate engineering class (and to many other years classes' too)... Except it was to be done on mars.

    So, basically the idea is to extract water and electrolize it to get oxygen and hydrogen, which are both pretty useful things. It would take a big plant to make it at all workable.

  21. Re:i've got something in my pocket, for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    <AIM-girl> Ewww, its all greasy and slimy!!!1!

  22. Well, then in that case... by kakashiryo · · Score: 0

    Here's my 'simulated' oxygen.

    Unfortunately, it only works when you get reallll close to your monitor.

  23. It's not so hard, really... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I mean, you only need to create 11 pounds of oxygen. On the moon, that's less than 2 pounds.

  24. Space.com by RaffiRai · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here's the link to the Space.com story published on the 19th.

  25. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One would think that a lucrative government contract would accompany the $250,000 prize.

  26. Lunar Patent Office? by hughk · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Even the USPTO probably doesn't have jurisdiction out on the moon yet.

    Interestingly enough, this discrepency over IP juridiction was used by NASA to organise multi-region DVD players for the ISS.

    --
    See my journal, I write things there
    1. Re:Lunar Patent Office? by back_pages · · Score: 4, Informative
      This is like the 4,928th time I've said that Slashdot's average reader is rather uninformed about the US Patent system.

      35 USC 105

      Note that 35 USC 102 is novel inventions, 103 is non-obvious inventions, 104 is foreign inventions, and 105 is inventions in outer space. It's no more than 2 statutes away from the critically misunderstood non-obvious inventions statute.

      I apologize for sounding like I'm ranting on you. It's not you, it's just that it's really hard to have a positive, upbeat attitude when disseminating information about the US Patent system around Slashdot. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who IS informed about how the patent system actually works and I hope you'll understand.

      Have a great weekend.

    2. Re:Lunar Patent Office? by hughk · · Score: 1

      Good point, but it is really hard to enforce extraterritorial laws. Just because something is patented in the US does not mean tht it applies anywhere else in the world (or the universe).

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    3. Re:Lunar Patent Office? by bit01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And this is like the zillionth time I've said that patent "experts" have completely missed the point about complaints about the US Patent system.

      Try to understand: The patent statutes could've been put together by the tooth fairy. It simply doesn't matter. Either what they say or where they came from.

      What's relevant are the results. And the results are TRASH, as even a cursory examination of recent software patents shows.

      The USPTO have been complicit in promoting these bogus statutes and are largely responsible for the current mess, despite their typical public service finger pointing effort "it's not my fault". Bullshit. They could've done one hell of a lot more than they are doing to fix the problem.

      Like a lot of government departments they've been captured by industry interests and forgotten the fact that they are public servants.

      ---

      Scientific, evidence based IP law. Now there's a thought.

    4. Re:Lunar Patent Office? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one has patented a sense of humor yet.... you can still get one.

    5. Re:Lunar Patent Office? by back_pages · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      Congratulations on the Insightful mod point. On Slashdot, when talking about patents, that is certification that you don't know what you're talking about. Notice my mod points were informative because my comments were based on information. Just an observation.

      If you'd like to refute that you don't have a clue, pick one of those patents and explain to me how the USPTO issued it without complying with the laws created by Congress or the case law created by judges. The notion that the USPTO promotes bogus statutes is, with all due respect, retarded. Do police officers "promote" the statutes against murder? No, they execute the law to the best of their ability. The USPTO is part of the executive branch of the government.

      If you don't believe those facts based in reality, I'll find you a 3rd grade social studies textbook that will explain the separation of powers.

      But seriously, I'd love it if you showed me that you know what you're talking about by discussing one of those patents you linked. Of course, I'm clearly baiting you into looking like a dumbass, but you'll have to ask yourself with whom the blame for that truly lies.

    6. Re:Lunar Patent Office? by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Congratulations on the Insightful mod point. On Slashdot, when talking about patents, that is certification that you don't know what you're talking about. Notice my mod points were informative because my comments were based on information. Just an observation.

      It's been my observation that people who make meta-comments about moderation are either insecure, trying to deflect the argument, or are trolls themselves.

      If you'd like to refute that you don't have a clue, pick one of those patents and explain to me how the USPTO issued it without complying with the laws created by Congress or the case law created by judges. The notion that the USPTO promotes bogus statutes is, with all due respect, retarded.

      Yeah, they don't promote current bad IP law at all. They're really trying hard to fix broken software patents. NOT.

      The fact is, as the patent statutes are currently written you could drive a bus through them for or against software patents. According to this and this 35 USC and 37 CFR doesn't even mention the word software! The USPTO is taking advantage of that ambiguity and the ambiguity in case law to build their bureaucratic empire.

      The USPTO's deliberate attempt to conflate creativity and patents/copyright at every opportunity, as if they are one and the same is also disengenuous.

      Do police officers "promote" the statutes against murder? No, they execute the law to the best of their ability.

      They also keep their superiors well informed about the best way to improve the law, turn a blind eye to bad law, particularly when it is badly applicable, and generally try to do the right thing. Unlike the USPTO.

      The USPTO is part of the executive branch of the government. If you don't believe those facts based in reality, I'll find you a 3rd grade social studies textbook that will explain the separation of powers.

      That's the theory, now look at the above for the reality. You're also giving another common bureaucratic cop-out when somebody points out bureaucratic irresponsibility: "we're just following orders". That's not an excuse if you've made no realistic attempt to get the orders fixed and even then it's dubious.

      Face it, despite your obvious attempt to baffle-with-bullshit people here with irrelevant information your argument is weak.

      As I've said before it's telling when a government department ignores what a huge number of experts in the field is telling them. And no, lawyers and the USPTO are not expert in the field of software, software innovation, OSS or the true net economic value of software patents despite what they claim. Legal training is irrel

    7. Re:Lunar Patent Office? by back_pages · · Score: 1
      It's been my observation that people who make meta-comments about moderation are either insecure, trying to deflect the argument, or are trolls themselves.

      So?

      Yeah, they don't...

      Please look up "coherent" and "argument". Try www.onelook.com.

      The fact is, as the patent statutes are currently written you could drive a bus through them for or against software patents. According to this and this 35 USC and 37 CFR doesn't even mention the word software! The USPTO is taking advantage of that ambiguity and the ambiguity in case law to build their bureaucratic empire.

      You do not understand what a persuasive argument is. Neither 35 USC nor 37 CFR mention a "cotton gin", "cathode ray tube", "teflon", or "rocket ship". You have successfully demonstrated that you do not have a functional understanding of the difference between the intentionally broad "statutory basis" of 35 USC and the very specific guidance of case law. You have clearly persuaded me that you can cite numerous references, without adequate understanding of the topic, and then expect me to be so dazzled by copious amounts of dull information that I won't detect that you're argument is complete bullshit puked forth from your equally impressive brain.

      See how easy that is? If you don't want to talk about the facts, I won't talk about the facts.

      They also keep their superiors well informed about the best way to improve the law, turn a blind eye to bad law, particularly when it is badly applicable, and generally try to do the right thing. Unlike the USPTO.

      You can't even write a coherent argument about the bad law. No, I'm not going to read through your references and find that argument for you. You don't understand what makes an effective argument, therefore you provide a pile of references and hope that something in there might support your opinion. Bzzt. You lose. You have provided absolutely nothing to substantiate this idea about the USPTO supporting bad laws.

      The most miserable thing is that it's not even an opinion with which I completely disagree, but I'm foremost appalled at what you present as an argument.

      Face it, despite your obvious attempt to baffle-with-bullshit people here with irrelevant information your argument is weak.

      You misspelled "baffle-with-facts". In response, I have my own responsibilities. If other people are not smart enough to keep up with the topic, it's not my responsibility when they look like morons for opening their mouths. If you're baffled by the Manual of Patent Examining Procedure, 35 USC, or 37 CFR, you probably should have shut up a few posts ago.

      As I've said before it's telling when a government department ignores what a huge number of experts in the field is telling them.

      That's funny. The "field" is patent law. The "experts" are software engineers. We could make a Sesame Street skit out of this. Hey kids, does "patent law" equal "software engineering"? Get some colorful puppets to sing a little song about how cats and dogs are different, boats and cars are different, apples and oranges are different and so on. Oh yeah, but seriously, with all due respect, you make a compelling point that I haven't laughed at previously on several occasions. Keep up the insightful diatribe!

      It doesn't matter where they came from, it's the result that matter and the results are TRASH with companies wasting hundreds of millions of dollars on bogus patent claims.

      Well, in fairness, a 3rd grade social studies textbook probably wouldn't fill you in on the complex mechanics of case law. You'd probably need at least a middle school social studies text book. You've heard of things like "Brown v. Board of Education", which was a court decision that changed how law in the US functions.

      I know I've been an ass, but now I'm being informative. Listen closely.

      35 USC works just fine for basically every technology under the sun except for softwa

    8. Re:Lunar Patent Office? by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Like I said, grow up.

      A combination of hubris, condescendence and insults does not an argument make.

      I'd suggest you learn a little about argument framing and how initial definition of categories can cause an argument to go in any direction. Your automatic assumption that what's good for the IP industry is necessarily good for anybody else is at best unproven and at worst simply wrong.

      You haven't said anything that invalidates what I've already said so bye.

      ---

      It's wrong that an intellectual property creator should not be rewarded for their work.
      It's equally wrong that an IP creator should be rewarded too many times for the one piece of work, for exactly the same reasons.
      Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA abuse.

  27. Re:Moon Sweet Moon? by nickptar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Extracting 11 pounds of oxygen on Earth is a lot different from getting your setup to the Moon at a cost of thousands per pound, having it produce enough oxygen to support human life, making enough nitrogen/argon/(other inert gas) to mix with it to prevent fires and lung damage, setting up highly-efficient water- and biomass-recycling and food-production systems (remember that your operating cost goes up ridiculously with the amount you have to import), and doing it all when one mistake will kill everyone and waste half your work. Yeah, it'll be a while.

  28. Why do I get the bad feeling... by howman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That someone will figure out how to actually do this and the boys at NASA will set off some sort of unstoppable chain reaction that turns the whole moon to oxygen resulting in a not so cool parralell to an accedent on Klingons moon, and with no Keanu Reeves in sight to miraculusly reverse the whole thing by pulling the plug on the sound generatior and releasing the white papers to be published on /.?

    --
    flinging poop since 1969
    1. Re:Why do I get the bad feeling... by MustardMan · · Score: 1

      That gave me a headache just thinking about trying to undertake the act of beginning to approach reading it.

    2. Re:Why do I get the bad feeling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because breaking molecular bonds requires energy, so it's unlikely to create a chain reaction.

    3. Re:Why do I get the bad feeling... by RipTides9x · · Score: 1

      I was thinking more along the lines of the recent remake of HG Wells Time Machine movie. The one scene where the moon is breaking to pieces and deorbiting, couls possibly have been from mining the subsurface to extract oxygen. Mountain sides that have been tunneled into extensively from mining operations have a tendency to eventually collapse in upon themselves making a crater of sorts. If you continously mine the moon for minerals/oxygen and tunnel for habitat there's a chance it could one day collapse in upon itself splitting it asunder and hurtling pieces of itself into earths atmosphere.

    4. Re:Why do I get the bad feeling... by tantrum · · Score: 1

      that would be a lot more than 5 kilo of O2, even moonkilos ;)

    5. Re:Why do I get the bad feeling... by SirTalon42 · · Score: 1

      They said in the movie it was caused by the tunneling being done on the moon to create living areas (I believe they said it was 'dynamite', but I may be wrong on that part).

    6. Re:Why do I get the bad feeling... by RipTides9x · · Score: 1

      Same difference tho, really, considering it would be more efficent to tunnel for oxy/ore and use tunnels for living space vs surface quarrying for same materials.

      The fallacy tho is that earth mined tunnels can have tons upon metric tons of earth above them, which lead them to eventually collapse. But on the moon, the weight is not as much.

      My previous post was all in good fun. And I believe you are right on detonating explosives to create habitats on the moon was the reason it was breaking apart in the movie.

  29. SIMULATED lunar soil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean, from the set of Capricorn One?

    1. Re:SIMULATED lunar soil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capricorn One was supposed to land on Mars....

  30. Why bother? by mothlos · · Score: 2, Funny

    Aliens already figured it out. I saw this documentary where they activated this giant machine and that is how they made the Martian atmosphere breathable for humans. Why don't they just utilize that tech?

    1. Re:Why bother? by tftp · · Score: 1

      The depicted machine produced atmosphere from water ice, IIRC. But there is not enough ice on the Moon.

    2. Re:Why bother? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problem - the documentary was on virtual reality.

      Five seconds after the end of the last bit of footage, they clipped the bit where Arnold woke up and went home to his wife.

  31. How to obtain Oxygen from moon rocks by CrazyTalk · · Score: 1

    1. Get Bunch of moon rocks
    2. Offer to trade moon rocks to a medical supply company for a tank full of oxygen
    3. ???
    4. Profit!

  32. I will find the answer by nomadic · · Score: 1

    Give me a beachside cottage in Bali, two beautiful female promiscuous lab assistants, 500 bottles of tequila, and I WILL FIND THE ANSWER.

    P.S. I am not a crank.

    1. Re:I will find the answer by Volvogga · · Score: 0

      I don't think NASA will want to wait untill fate deals its cruel hand and ED strikes you.

      --
      Vol~
  33. Easy... by N1ghtFalcon · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is an easy one... You just take some moon dust into your hand and start squeezing. O2 will begin rising from the top, and H2O (this is an added bonus) will be dripping from the bottom. If it doesn't work, you're not squeezing hard enough!

    Now what's this I hear about some reward?

  34. Sample material? by PierceLabs · · Score: 1

    I'm in. I just need some sample material to start with. NASA, are you supplying the raw materials?

    1. Re:Sample material? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  35. Materials? by Volvogga · · Score: 0

    Anyone see a list/limitation on materials that one may be supplied with?

    Seriously, anything that can get one free and legal access to some C4..... who cares about winning at that point?

    "WOW, did you see that moon rock blow!? The pieces are a quarter-inch into the plexiglass! Well, I guess that didn't work. But maybe we should try it again. Got to have more than one trial. Hey, can we get some more moon rock and C4 over here! Ours blew up! Did it on pupose? I resent that. Do you want to explain to your boss why you are standing in the way of scientific progress? No. Then get the explosives! Can't a guy blow up moon rock without being questioned anymore? Shees."

    --
    Vol~
  36. breathable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, hell... anybody can do that..

    As a matter of fact, every mushroom is edible.

    Perhaps only once though.

  37. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't that a bit of a weak prize?

    No, not really... you see, they lock them in an airtight room with the moondust, some distilled water and acetic acid, and a Swiss Army knife.

  38. Deoxygenating SiO2 and CaO by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Informative

    The challenge is to rip those oxygen atoms from the silicon and calcium atoms. This is hard because they are tightly bound. Moreover, I doubt NASA would be interested in any process that consumes some other non-moon-available chemical (trading 5 lbs oxygen for 10 lbs of a reducing agent). I suspect that some sort of electrolysis might do the trick, but even that might be outside the power budget.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Deoxygenating SiO2 and CaO by AyeRoxor! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I was thinking the same thing. The process would have to be electric; if it is, they have an unlimited supply of virtually atmosphere-unimpeded solar energy.

    2. Re:Deoxygenating SiO2 and CaO by Spoukie · · Score: 2, Funny

      Power budget? Surely the bright side of the moon could be populated with a significant number of solar panels? endless energy except for the occassional eclipse!

    3. Re:Deoxygenating SiO2 and CaO by shadowbearer · · Score: 1

      Another challenge (and one I wonder if NASA is going to require) is for the machinery to be vacuum and dust resistant; ie, not vulnerable to vacuum cementing of moving parts (we're moving rock grains thru it, there will be moving parts and lots of dust problems)

      As another poster pointed out, it'd probably be electric - but I would think that the waste heat from a nuclear reactor might be enough. Unless our battery technology improves radically - or unless we locate the base at one of the permanent sunlight locations - it'll be much cheaper to transport a good sized reactor up there rather than tons of batteries *and* the solar setup needed to charge them. We'll already have to transport enough setups like that for vehicles, and if we're mining, we'll need some pretty robust vehicles.

      In any case we are going to have to do a lot of research to make these beasts reliable and low maintenance. It's an entirely different environment.

      SB

      --
      It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
    4. Re:Deoxygenating SiO2 and CaO by Bill+Currie · · Score: 1

      and the monthly fortnight long night.

      --

      Bill - aka taniwha
      --
      Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak

    5. Re:Deoxygenating SiO2 and CaO by Random832 · · Score: 1

      send up a few tanks of nitrogen and you can have the machine's moving parts operating in a pressurized environment - the dust problems are absolutely inherent to the challenge, since the process by definition operates on the dust itself.

      as for the power, why not put three or four power stations along the lunar equator, run some power lines, and maintain just enough batteries to ride out the occasional rare eclipse?

      --
      We've secretly replaced Slashdot with new Folgers Crystals - let's see if it notices.
  39. Already a solution? by Bananatree3 · · Score: 4, Informative
    I just came across this project that seems to have already found a good method to extract O2 from Lunar Dust: http://www.asi.org/adb/04/03/10/04/

    seems like they know what they're doing, and that they have been working on it for a while!

    1. Re:Already a solution? by pintpusher · · Score: 1

      There's something strangely comforting about a diagram that includes the tag "other nifty volatiles" halfway down this page.

      I've always felt that technical language scared off too many people.

      --
      man, I feel like mold.
    2. Re:Already a solution? by Biogenesis · · Score: 1

      They don't seem to mention duct tape or paper clips. NEXT!

    3. Re:Already a solution? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      There's something strangely comforting about a diagram that includes the tag "other nifty volatiles" halfway down this page.

      I used to have a diagram at my desk like this:

      Input ---> { ? } -----> Output


      The middle was a big fluffy cloud.

    4. Re:Already a solution? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I just came across this project that seems to have already found a good method

      Maybe they are stuck at 10.9 pounds of production.

    5. Re:Already a solution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They seem to want the moondust to react with hydrogen. Are there unlimited amounts of hydrogen on the moon, or?

    6. Re:Already a solution? by Random832 · · Score: 1

      the hydrogen's getting recycled - follow the arrows, it's being output as water (the main reaction's other outputs don't contain hydrogen), and then the electrolysis chamber has two outputs, the other of which is oxygen.

      --
      We've secretly replaced Slashdot with new Folgers Crystals - let's see if it notices.
  40. I already have a process that does this in 4 hrs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just have to make it slightly more efficient as I currently have to use 13 pounds of breathable oxygen as a catalyst.

  41. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by ka9dgx · · Score: 1
    Amen, brother. The risk-reward ratio is way too low on this one. Basically, they're asking for a technological innovation on par with the light bulb, and they want to give a prize less than the lab assistants wages necessary to even seriously look at the problem for 10 years.

    Cheep, Cheep, Cheep.

    --Mike--

  42. Re:Why bother?-The 'documentary' in question... by iamcf13 · · Score: 1
  43. Poorly writtten story by windowpain · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Inventors will have just eight hours to extract at least 11 pounds of breathable oxygen from a simulated form of lunar soil."

    This should be rewritten to something along the lines of:

    "To win, a team will have to develop a process that can extract at least 11 pounds of oxygen in an eight hour period" The deadline is June 1, 2008.

    --
    Insert witty sig here.
    1. Re:Poorly writtten story by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      You could make this even more funny by just locking in the inventors with some lunar soil amd their machinery in an airtight room and just wait a few days.
      If they are still alive, it obviously works :)

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  44. Cheap Bastards by wcitechnologies · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, but if you figure out a way to make the moon inhabitable, you better damn well score more than a quarter mill off the deal.

    --
    Electrons are free; it is moving them that becomes expensive.
    1. Re:Cheap Bastards by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      > if you figure out a way to make the moon inhabitable, you better damn well score
      > more than a quarter mill off the deal.

      I think I've already figured out how to make it inhabitable. Give me $10,000 and I'll tell you.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
  45. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by jdray · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? Generating light by means of electricity in a fashion that's repeatable by manufacturing techniques of the day and cheap enough for the common man was an incredible achievement and required significant technological advance for the time. We already have many industrial processes for extracting oxygen from oxides (often used for purifying oxidized metals, not recovering the oxygen itself). This prize is just for developing a system that packages those processes in a way that they can be used on the moon. Furthermore, it's not like NASA is asking the developer to warrant the stability of the process or any such thing, just come up with a viable method. Years of development will come afterward, and it might not even be with the prizewinner's system if the second runner up, six months later, comes up with a system that works better.

    --
    The Spoon
    Updated 6/28/2011
  46. RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kilograms are a unit of mass

  47. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by fbjon · · Score: 1
    Hah!

    I did this years ago in the basement. However, for some unfathomable reason, my oxygen was of the unbreathable kind.

    --
    True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
  48. Finding the actual rules by rufusdufus · · Score: 1

    Searching the nasa and related web sites, I was unable to find anything more specific than the article provides. All I found was an email list you can sign up for. When you subscribe, what you get is commands you can send to the server to fetch files. This is slow going, this is the second day, and all I've got back so far is a "list".
    Anyway to sign up, you send an email with no subject and containing only the word "subscribe" to "majordomo@spinoza.public.hq.nasa.gov".
    Here is the result of the list command I got back today.

    >>>> lists
    majordomo@spinoza.public.hq.nasa.gov serves the following lists:

    Y6Y
    berlin Readjustment and Recovery
    bookshelf NASA Headquarters Library Bookshelf list
    centennialchallenges centennialchallenges
    code-m-0-supplement
    code-m-1-supplement
    code-m-2-supplement
    code-m-3-supplement
    code-m-4-supplement
    code-m-7-supplement
    code-m-supplement
    geo-internationalcoop
    haha
    heads-up NASA Headquarters Heads-Up Mailing List
    history NASA Headquarters History Mailing List
    murep-announcements Subscription List for MUREP Announcements
    nasa-adv-cncl-alert NASA Advisory Council Alert Mailing List
    nasafirst NASA FIRST Robotics Project
    press-release NASA Headquarters Press Release Mailing List
    v49

    I have no idea what those file names mean...and I'm not sure why there is one name 'haha'.

    1. Re:Finding the actual rules by rufusdufus · · Score: 1

      ok they are list names, not file names, but whatever

    2. Re:Finding the actual rules by rufusdufus · · Score: 1

      Actually, this is an "index" command, you have to do it before the "list" files command, so I havent even made it to list yet :(

    3. Re:Finding the actual rules by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have no idea what those file names mean...and I'm not sure why there is one name 'haha'.


      Probably for any articles that take the piss out of space research, including conspiracy theories that the moon landings were fake.

    4. Re:Finding the actual rules by nystire · · Score: 1

      Got to love the server name. Are they trying to tell us anything?

  49. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by DJCF · · Score: 1

    Don't worry...

    I was really quite worried for a second there.

  50. On a tight budget are they? by sameyeam · · Score: 1

    Seems like a stingy fucking reward for such a valuable and large leap in technology.

    I offer anyone who can develop me a desktop cold-fusion reactor capable of powering my house a packet of peanuts!

    Y'all might want to stand back out of the way of the approaching crowd of nuclear scientists flocking towards me!

    1. Re:On a tight budget are they? by cnettel · · Score: 1
      But, please, this isn't rocket science. It would be fun to extract it efficiently, both as fuel in Luna-launched rockets* and for human breathing. BUT, we have a really good idea of all kinds of way to process geologic material. They are asking for a recipe on how to make a great cake. Baking cakes are nothing new, but the list of ingredients here is a little peculiar, so it may take some thinking to come up with a good result.

      Put another way, this is engineering, not science, if you try to idealize a distinction between the two.

    2. Re:On a tight budget are they? by Sir+Thistle · · Score: 1

      Are those honey roasted or just plain salted peanuts?

  51. How about plants? by Progman3K · · Score: 0

    Plants produce oxygen, but could they grow in moon-dust?

    --
    I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    1. Re:How about plants? by Progman3K · · Score: 1

      Maybe even genetically-engineered plants that produce MORE oxygen?

      I know they couldn't live out in the open on the moon, but maybe in some sort of dome?

      --
      I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    2. Re:How about plants? by majagu · · Score: 1

      Plants that grow and produce oxygen in 8 hours?

    3. Re:How about plants? by Zone-MR · · Score: 1

      They produce oxygen from carbon dioxide, not from the soil they grow in. If there was an abundant supply of CO2 on the moon, making oxygen would be a hell of a lot easier, and there'd be no need to extract it from lunar soil.

    4. Re:How about plants? by Punboy · · Score: 1

      Just so you know, the plants need protection from the sun, certain temperatures in which to grow, and last but not least, a preexisting atmosphere in which to get CO2 to convert into O2...

      --
      If you like what I've said here, and want to read more, go to http://www.krillrblog.com
    5. Re:How about plants? by Progman3K · · Score: 1


      So if we put them under a dome, and breathe on them?

      We can use the solar energy to cool/heat the dome, and the plants would receive sunlight through the dome and O2 from us.

      Might that work?

      --
      I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    6. Re:How about plants? by Punboy · · Score: 1

      It might... but then thats not really extracting O2 from the rocks, its just providing the plants with nutrients to extract O2 from the CO2 we're breathing on them. It would be easier just to transport our own O2 to the moon.

      --
      If you like what I've said here, and want to read more, go to http://www.krillrblog.com
    7. Re:How about plants? by Gibsnag · · Score: 1

      Well... you'd need to bring up oxygen to begin with, otherwise rather than breathing out CO2, you'd just die. You would also have to calculate the plants to human ratio pretty exactly I'd guess for a small contained space. Not to mention that both plants and humans need water. Oh, and plants need nutrients from the soil, no idea if Lunar soil has the required nutrients for our plants to grow, or if you could create GM plants which use lunar soil's nutrients.

    8. Re:How about plants? by ebrandsberg · · Score: 1

      They are giving a 250k prize to find an easy solution to this. If they can find one, they know it is easier than trasporting O2 to the moon for the mars missions. Otherwise, I am guessing they believe it is easier to just send it to orbit. This is a shot at a dart-board. Chances, there IS now answer, but worth putting some money on in case someone can figure it out.

  52. OK, here is how to do it... by justdrew · · Score: 1

    I've seen recently a plan to use small robots to turn moon dust into solar panels so electrical power should be plentiful. Use molecular dissociation in high energy plasma, such techniques could eventually lead to generalized device to break down any molecules into pure atmoic components. Here's a link to a paper on breaking O from SiO2. nice pure silicon in the offing too... the gold can be reused. http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0022-3727/34/11/316 Evaluation of the composition, the pressure, the thermodynamic properties and the monatomic spectral lines at fixed volume for a SiO2-Ag plasma in the temperature range 5000-25 000 K W Bussière and P André Laboratoire Arc Electrique et Plasmas Thermiques, Université Blaise Pascal-CNRS, Phys. Bât. 5, 24 Avenue des Landais, F 63177 Aubiere Cedex, France Received 11 October 2000 Print publication: Issue 11 (7 June 2001) Abstract. The pressure, the composition, the internal energy, the heat capacity and several monatomic spectral line intensities are calculated at constant volume for a plasma composed of SiO2 and Ag for several initial dens ities and in the temperature range 5000-25 000 K at thermodynamic equilibrium. We show that with a small quantity of material in the plasma we obtain a high pressure. From the heat capacity and composition calculation, we deduce that the main reactions are the ionization of Ag, the dissociation of SiO2 to SiO with further dissociation and ionization of Si and O in the considered temperature range. Furthermore, with the monatomic spectral line calculation, we deduce that the oxygen spectral line has a behaviour rather different from those emitted by Ag and Si.

    1. Re:OK, here is how to do it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why go the all the trouble of extracting O2 from SiO2 when it's to much easier to get it from other abundant oxides in the regolith, such as iron?

  53. Re:Why bother?-The 'documentary' in question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hear that "whoosh" sound? Look up. Way up.

  54. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Funny
    Well, I can do it, easy

    Using the patented George W Bush method, I'll find that 11 pounds of O2, even if I have to put it there myself!

    Can I have my check now?

  55. Well.... by inkdesign · · Score: 0, Redundant

    That's one way to get things done with a shoestring budget...

  56. rough numbers - chem 1C by kencurry · · Score: 2, Interesting

    5 Kg mass O2 (desired)

    156.25 moles O2

    625 moles e- (assume electrolysis, starting oxidation state -2)

    28800 seconds (8 hours to get it done)

    3.76375E+26 no. electrons (you've got to xfer these)

    6.24E+18 electrons/coulomb (def.)

    60316506 coulombs

    2094 total Amps (C/s)

    -->262 amp-hr equivalent battery necessary to make 5 kg O2 in 8 hrs assuming perfect efficiency.

    Will be interesting to see what contraints NASA set on the system design. One assumes that they would not reward solutions that are horribly inefficient. Afterall, you've got to send your gear to the moon and pay for the ride up there.

    --
    sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
    1. Re:rough numbers - chem 1C by nickptar · · Score: 1

      But you have to dissolve or melt the rock before electrolyzing it. Since the Moon has a similar composition to Earth's mantle, I assume it's mostly insoluble, so you'd have to melt the rock - likely expending more energy than electrolyzing it would require. (However, a simple solar furnace could do this.)

    2. Re:rough numbers - chem 1C by TyrelHaveman · · Score: 1

      Hey, if you had a 12v battery, it'd only need to produce 25 megawatts! That's a big battery :-P

    3. Re:rough numbers - chem 1C by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      Yeah man talk about 2000 Amps continuous operation in a 25 kg (55 lb) device - I saw that 25 kg number tossed at
      http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7403
      With 2000 amps you probably don't need a solar furnace because it's self heating anyway inside a 25 kg device - cross section can't be that big, considering you can't use tinfoil thin stuff, because you need a pressure rating, to withstand vacuum. But does the 25 kg include the solar panels, or is that provided to us, as much as we want? For 2000 amps you need quite a farm of solar panels. Once you account for all the efficiencies, including ohmic heating, mining/grinding/powder separating robots coming home to recharge, etc, you're probably looking at a 5kW solar power station. Solar panels can be paperthin though.
      You can probably only do this fast enough if you use very hot temperatures, otherwise ionic mobilities and diffusion rates/reaction rates may be too slow. Still, you're looking at quite some foaming, whatever you do, that's a massive amount of gas, especially if it's released at high temperatures - at 1000C the volume is 4x that of room temp volume, and at 1000C I calculate you're dealing with 0.5L gas/sec, at 1 atm pressure, which sounds manageable, but it's still a lot. You may also need some massive heat exchangers when dealing with such high throughputs, especially that there is nothing to thermally contact with - no atmosphere to air cool, no cooling water tower, so all you can do is radiatively cool, unless you dig holes deep into the surface, but "geothermal" is a great insulator in the long run - here on Earth you can pump warm water into the ground in the summer, and get it back in the winter.

      Extra Notes: Thinking about colder temperatures, such as some acid digestion/liquid system, whether based on water or phosphoric acid fuel cell stuff may be too time consuming (may need a day to digest at room temp), and one problem is that titanium in any kind of solution loves going round trips between electrodes, doing a Ti3+-Ti4+ redox cycle, wasting your time. Why do they talk about ilmenite FeTiO3, when it only has 30% oxygen, when sodium-aluminum-silicate has 50%? Just magnetically eliminate ilmenite and don't waste your time with it, when it comes to oxygen - you should get O2+aluminum (I think, unless you get O2+silicon, or O2+Al/Si Alloy instead) - so you may not even need titanium-iron for construction, at least for start, you may have plenty aluminum. Also, with extra reagents such as water/hydrogen/phosphoric acid your recovery of these reagests would be less than 100%. True you may be able to get just enough hydrogen/helium/nitrogen from the rocks to replenish yourself, but those are very precious things. So forget it, just use sodium-alumino-silicate, melt it into an ionic liquid, (you just need to kickstart the melting a bit, the rest will ohmicaly self heat) and just drive electricity through it.

    4. Re:rough numbers - chem 1C by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      5kW my ass.. I meant 5000A instead of 2000A, but for electrolysis heating you need 2-5V, so that's 5000A x (2..5)V=10..25kW.

  57. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It'll buy you a single ticket for a suborbital flight...

  58. Wha.....? by Smiffa2001 · · Score: 1
    ...from a simulated form of lunar soil.
    Riiiiiiiiight, so if NASA have manufactured this lunar soil, then presumably they should know how to get the O2 back out!. Failing that, assuming somebody manages this (though $250k is a little cheap considering the savings NASA would make) whats to say it won't work with actual, real lunar soil?
    1. Re:Wha.....? by Bill+Walker · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Riiiiiiiiight, so if NASA have manufactured this lunar soil, then presumably they should know how to get the O2 back out!

      Really? I know how to manufacture a quiche, but I don't think I could get just the eggs back out of it.

      --
      Please, for the love of God, no more car analogies.
    2. Re:Wha.....? by tftp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The question is not how to get it out, but how to get it out quickly, efficiently and without external chemicals or supplies. As someone already said above, it's not interesting to extract 5 kg of anything by using up 10 kg of something else that is equally unavailable on the Moon.

    3. Re:Wha.....? by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Please... read the details before you post.

      This is some volcanic ash that has a chemical composition that is very similar to the samples that were brought back during the Apollo missions. You know, gas chromatigraphs and other methods to identify the chemical composition in a piece of rock. This was done quite thouroughally when the lunar samples came back, and a major effort was done to try and come up with some similar earth-based mineral ore that could be used for experimental purposes in a laboratory before breaking out the lunar rocks themselves. This search effort happened well before this challenge was ever started, and is simply some gravel from a volcanic cinder cone in Flagstaff, AZ. Chemically it seems to behave almost identically as lunar soil samples, and is much cheaper to obtain.

      For something that a research team can work on after-hours and as a side project, $250,000 is something worth while to throw some minor effort into. Certainly a couple of graduate students trying to come up with a research topic, or even a couple of undergrads working under the direction of a forward-thinking professor might turn something like this into some cool little "science fair" type project. I wouldn't necessarily start a whole brand new company over this prize, however.

    4. Re:Wha.....? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, maybe the simulated lunar soil is the same soil you see in the simulated moon landing photos...

  59. Just remember... by Aggrav8d · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...don't spend it on the moon. There your prize is only worth about $41.6k dollars.

  60. why stop there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why stop with -O2, go for the gold and extract -O3!

    1. Re:why stop there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget -fomit-frame-pointer and an appropriate -march flag, depending on your platform!

  61. Breath by Aggrav8d · · Score: 1

    Holy run on sentence, batman!

  62. what's the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We can't even finish the ISS (international space station) and now we trying for the moon? Someone should really stop me laughing.

    1. Re:what's the point? by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      You find the idea that a large organization can multitask and plan for future projects is laughable? I hope nobody ever puts you in charge of anything significant...

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  63. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  64. Solar power should be plentiful by Urusai · · Score: 1

    since the Moon is closer to the Sun. ...what's that? Copernicus? Never met him.

  65. You've been snorting too much lunar dust. by FrothyBitter · · Score: 1

    Aside from seeing no necessity for change, your suggested change does not mention that the oxygen must be breathable nor that the oxygen is extracted from a simulated form of lunar soil.

    I guess you are just trying to drum up hits for your free Mac mini.

    1. Re:You've been snorting too much lunar dust. by deangelo · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that 11 pounds is INCORRECT! pounds is not a measure of mass.

    2. Re:You've been snorting too much lunar dust. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      pounds is not a measure of mass.

      Sure it is. There are pounds mass and pounds force. They are rarely distinguished, as the applicable one is usually obvious, as in this case.

    3. Re:You've been snorting too much lunar dust. by windowpain · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but you're absolutely wrong.

      It is, in fact, utterly indisputable that this story was poorly written. As written it implies that the time to complete the task of development is eight hours. That is clearly wrong.

      Evidently you did not comprehend that my use of the phrase "something along the lines of" obviates the need for me to supply a complete rewrite of the story. I simply suggested one of many possible alternatives that was limited to addressing the story's most significant fault.

      Your use of the phrase "Aside from seeing no necessity for change, your suggested change..." is improperly formed. You are presumably the one seeing no necessity for change so that first clause cannot serve as an antecedent to "your suggested change."

      It is not difficult to see why you could not see a "necessity for change."

      Perhaps you should stick to topics on which you have some expertise.

      --
      Insert witty sig here.
  66. Re:Moon Sweet Moon? by NemosomeN · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Most of the non-oxygen would be persistent. You'd need it to start with, but once it got going you'd be fine. How many times does liquid Nitrogen expand when brought to room temperature? Might not take too much for a small contained environment.

    --
    I hate grammar Nazi's.
  67. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Zone-MR · · Score: 1

    It might be a significant achievment, but there's no use for it at present.

    If you knew a way to solve the problem, your best bet would be taking the $250K. Your other choice would be trying to sell your idea when people are in desperate need for it, which is unlikely to happen in your lifetime.

  68. Wonder if they're allowed to use carbon... by sssmashy · · Score: 1

    Obviously, there is no elemental carbon available on the moon, but the problem of extracting oxygen may be relatively simple if one is allowed to use carbon brought in carbothermic reduction of the lunar soil in an airtight solar furnace.

  69. In Other News... by malelder · · Score: 1

    The science team of Weyland and Yutani promise to be the first to officially complete the Nasa MoonROx challenge!

    Sounds like the first step of terraforming to me...or so I hope (;

    --


    Yuma, AZ...You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
    1. Re:In Other News... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hudson: Excuse me sir.

      Apone: Yes Hicks.

      Hudson: Hudson sir, he's hicks.

      Hicks: ::chuckle::

      Hudson: Is this going to be a stand up research project, sir, or just another bug-hunt?

  70. It seems to me... by locnar42 · · Score: 1

    ...that the person that solves this problem is going to make much more than $250,000.
    This must just be a way to get the ball rolling and make people start thinking about the problem. There is much more money to be made other than the NASA reward.

  71. +5 Funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    blah foo blah

  72. I should clarify... by sssmashy · · Score: 1

    The CO and CO2 products would be electrolysed in a separate step to yield C(s)(which could then be recycled back to the process), and breathable O2.

    The carbon would be reacted with various metal oxides present in lunar soil. FeO, which is up to 5% of lunar soil, is the most promising source of oxygen, given that it can be reduced more effectively at lower temperatures than SiO2, and the astronauts would likely find the resulting Fe useful. The most cumbersome part is probably be the furnace itself, which would need to have a clear glass aperture (fused silica or quartz) to admit the concentrated solar radiation from parabolic mirrors or a heliostat field outside. The furnace would have to be completely pressure sealed and be able to withstand the extreme pressure differential between the near-vacuum outside and the hot gases within.

    Direct thermal reduction of oxides within the solar furnace is also possible, but this is not a feasible solution due to the extreme temperatures required to reduce most oxides (>3000k). There is an additional problem separating oxgen from the gaseous metal products, which would tend to recombine with the oxygen upon cooling. There are further problems with cooling the furnace walls, which would have be constructed with tungsten carbide or some other refractory material that is difficult enough to build on earth, let alone the moon.

    1. Re:I should clarify... by StarsAreAlsoFire · · Score: 1

      yeah, but high temperatures aren't a problem on the moon. I would imagine that creating a furnace with >3000K temps would take, what, 10 meters of mirrors?

      Turn that sh^t into plasma and seperate it magnetically. Or not. ;~)

    2. Re:I should clarify... by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but could you create such a device that has a mass of less than 25 kg?

      For large-scale municipal oxygen plants of Tycho City, yeah, they might use such a system, but not likely for Ra III (assuming they use another sun god for the names of lunar missions).

    3. Re:I should clarify... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Heh, I like the sound of that idea ;)

      --
    4. Re:I should clarify... by cavac · · Score: 1

      The mirror itself could weight less than 5 kilograms. With the much lower gravity and especially the missing atmosphere (no wind!), basically all you need is some thin struts - similar to ones you get with any lightweight tent - and some reflecting (aluminium) foil to make up the reflecting surface.

      You could more or less take the design of some of those foldable parabolic antennas, scale up the size and scale down the structural components.

      Once the thing is set up on the moon, the only mechanical force it has to withstand is the turning into the sun and the shrinking/expanding during the 28-day moonday. (and it doesn't matter if the foil wrinkles a bit during moon-night).

      --
      Look, this thing is totally safe! Built it myself, you know. You just press that button like this and then turn that lev
    5. Re:I should clarify... by germansausage · · Score: 1

      Good Post but 1 small quibble. What does the lunar vacuum have to to with the "extreme" pressure differential. Earth atmosphere = 15 psi, moon = 0 psi. In other words the difference between running the furnace on the earth or the moon is 15 psi. This is a pretty insignificant difference. My bike tire can take 90 psi no problem.

  73. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yeah, I'll bet they paid more to the "consultant" that they paid to write up the rules for this contest

    very weak prize, they might as well have just said the reward is some title, like uber inventor of the known universe lol

  74. It's so simple a child could do it... by sgant · · Score: 2, Funny

    I mean, come on...it's pretty obvious.

    The soil on the Moon basically consists of minerals including aluminum, calcium, magnesium, oxygen, silicon, and titanium. So let's take the first one, aluminum.

    It's atom has 13 protons right? So just take those 13 protons and split them up into 13 Hydrogen atoms. Then take those 13 hydrogen atoms and add them together to make 1 Oxygen atom...with 5 extra protons that can be put aside for furture oxygen building. So from just 1 aluminum atom you get 1.5 Oxygen atoms! Start cranking them out...and build some sort of machine assembly line that does this and you're on your way!

    Where do I pick up my check?

    --

    "Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
    1. Re:It's so simple a child could do it... by SirTalon42 · · Score: 1

      You forgot the neutrons. Nucleons consist of more than just your fancy protoss pylons.

    2. Re:It's so simple a child could do it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It's atom has 13 protons right?

      Wrong, "it's" shouldn't have an apostrophe here.

    3. Re:It's so simple a child could do it... by utopia27 · · Score: 1

      Distracting details.

      The remainder is left as an exercise to the reader.

    4. Re:It's so simple a child could do it... by sgant · · Score: 1

      bah, we'll throw the extra neutrons out back on the neutron pile. I'm sure a start-up company will think up a use for them...and we can sell it cheap.

      --

      "Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
  75. Re:Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath... by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 1

    Holding your breath would probably be an advisable strategy if you're in a rush to go there.

  76. Except for the 14-days of night.... by G4from128k · · Score: 1

    they have an unlimited supply of virtually atmosphere-unimpeded solar energy

    Yes and no, unfortunately. Unless they put the installation where they get almost perpetual sun they are going to face a long night every lunar month. The plus side of the polar regions might be the availability of hydrogen, which might be in the form of water (easily separated in to O2 and H2) or in some other form. Hydrogen could be used to help reduce the lunar rock oxides to release the oxygen. Of course, perching a moonbase on the peak of the mountain might be tricky.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Except for the 14-days of night.... by AyeRoxor! · · Score: 1

      Unless they put the installation where they get almost perpetual sun they are going to face a long night every lunar month. [...] perching a moonbase on the peak of the mountain might be tricky.

      Yeah, hadn't thought of the sunse thing. Good news about the peak; they just need to put the panels there. Compared to the rest of the materials, extension cables should be cheap.

    2. Re:Except for the 14-days of night.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Unless they put the installation where they get almost perpetual sun they are going to face a long night every lunar month."

      Yes, but they could produce enough oxgen during the local lunar day to last through the local lunar night. The only problem would be how to store all of the extra oxygen. Perhaps NASA should come up with another contest to design an oxygen storage system. Maybe store the oxgen pressurized, in a cylindrical or spherical object of some sort, perhaps made of metal? Wait, I think that I may have an idea! Let me get back to you.

    3. Re:Except for the 14-days of night.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. You're really stupid.

  77. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Rei · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yeah, but it's a "byproduct" prize. If you fight a low-mass way for purifying tightly bonded metal-oxides (aluminum oxide, titanium oxide, etc), as many research projects on Earth are working towards, you simply need to capture the oxygen.

    One interesting thing I read about half a year ago, I recently was success in electrolysis directly on solid metal oxides instead of having to first melt them or dissolve them in another material (such as molten cryolite for aluminum refining). That might be a promising low-mass, low-gravity-tolerant way to refine metals and release oxygen.

    --
    I believe Bird-Person can arrange that.
  78. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After the ansari xprize, nasa was ripped to start putting out similar rewards for achievements, and they are, however...

    I think I read on a previous slashdot or fark article that nasa is not allowed to create greater than $250,000 prizes. Everytime they try a congressman from one of the stupid states writes in new legislation to stop them. But don't quote me on that, it was a long time ago that I read this.

  79. step 1 by rocketfairy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Step 1: Switch to the metric system.

  80. Here is a method... by grumpyman · · Score: 0, Redundant

    First, pour liquid oxygen onto the soil....

  81. Why not? I know how to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really? I know how to manufacture a quiche, but I don't think I could get just the eggs back out of it.
    I know how to pump Budweiser back into the horse it came from.

  82. Details lacking by jmichaelg · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I couldn't find any details on the prize, i.e., what the design parameters are.

    The lunar environment is so radically different there that it changes a lot of the design parameters. Structures weigh 1/6 as much there as they do here. Build a structure that is strong enough for Lunar gravity and it'll collapse here. You've got both a 250 degree F heat source and -250 degrees heatsink readily available on the Moon which makes for a nice heat engine but again, it only works on the Moon.

    There are other significant differences so I'm curious whether NASA plans on testing the machines using Earth design rules or Moon design rules.

    1. Re:Details lacking by Teancum · · Score: 4, Informative

      I would suggest that you look more at this article from New Scientist:

      http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7403

      The big deal is that you are going to be given a lunar soil simulant (they say that getting the real stuff is just too expensive to do anything but a final proof test with) that comes from a volcanic ash deposit near Flagstaff, AZ. For a small fee a research team can obtain samples of this simulant for experimental purposes.

      It must put out at least 5 kg of oxygen (assuming that the time to produce this is limited to a short period of time... 24 hours or less), and the whole device must weight less than 25 kg. I would also guess that space considerations are also something to worry about, but that the weight of the device is a bigger deal.

      I guess the Wired news article says 11 kg in 8 hours.

      In short, it is something that should fit in a foot locker that astronauts could pull out and set up once another lunar mission actually occurs.

      This is a bigger deal than the tether challenge, and something that has some hard short-term practical applications in the space industry. Also, the $250,000 is something you can pay a research team to do more than hold a pizza party afterward with when you win. If you already have a minerology lab, this would be worth pulling a couple of interns/lab assistants over to wrap their energies around. And potentially some very nice contracts in the future if NASA gets off their behind and gets back to the moon.

    2. Re:Details lacking by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I found slightly more details in this PDF.. Warning: The author of that PDF was an idiot and pages 2 through 5 take almost half a minute each to display due to first rendering two huge NASA logos as tiny icons. Page 1 isn't quite as bad.

      From the PDF:

      -----

      MoonROx Summary
      First team to demonstrate an autonomous system that extracts 5 kilograms of oxygen in under 8 hours from soil (regolith) simulant wins

      Exhaust gas must be < 1% H2 and breathable

      Teams must deliver MoonROx Hardware
      * mass limited to 25 kg
      * power limited to 3kW and/or solar flux
      * penalties for consumables used in processes


      FSRI to provide
      * regolith simulant (JSC-1) for prize attempt
      * O2 monitoring and storage equipment

      $250,000 purse expires June 1, 2008

      -----

      I did some searching, but couldn't find any details on the "consumables penalty" anywhere.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  83. FUND A CONTEST FOR ENERGY RESEARCH by Marrow · · Score: 1


    We need a new energy source here much more than we need air on the freakin moon.

    1. Re:FUND A CONTEST FOR ENERGY RESEARCH by what+about · · Score: 1

      Maybe they want to put a power plant on the moon and beam the power down to earth ?

  84. I have the solution! by doxology · · Score: 1

    But there isn't enough room to write it on this margin.

    --
    sigfault. core dumped.
  85. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hello everyone, my name is Fred. But you can all call me "Uber Inventor of the Known Universe Lol".

  86. use a reducing agent, perhaps? by bodrell · · Score: 1
    We already have many industrial processes for extracting oxygen from oxides (often used for purifying oxidized metals, not recovering the oxygen itself). This prize is just for developing a system that packages those processes in a way that they can be used on the moon.
    I was going to say, if you want oxygen from oxides, why not just use a strong reducing agent? Or would that just make water vapor? I know many reducing agents are hydrides (sodium borohydride and such) but even if they do donate protons to make water, you can split water to make oxygen. And solar energy could work, too, since there are no clouds on the moon. The real problem is managing the mass, power, and time limitations.
    --
    Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
  87. kilograms are mass, not weight by bodrell · · Score: 1

    I can tell someone either slept through physics or didn't read the NASA contest description. There, it's specified in kilograms (mass) rather than pounds (either force or mass). So whoever translated kilograms into pounds was probably using Earth pounds for their reference, not Moon pounds.

    --
    Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
  88. mass percent oxygen by bodrell · · Score: 1
    I was curious, so conversion to mass percent:

    SiO2: 0.53 * 44.94% = 23.8%
    Al2O3: 0.47 * 35.71% = 16.8%
    CaO: 0.29 * 20.57% = 6.0%
    Na2O: 0.26 * 0.384% = 0.1%
    MgO: 0.40 * 0.53% = 0.2%
    -----------
    total = 46.9% oxygen by mass in that rock. I couldn't find how much moon dust would be available for processing. I wonder the percent yield necessary to win the contest . . .

    --
    Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
    1. Re:mass percent oxygen by StarsAreAlsoFire · · Score: 1

      Coolness. I thought about it but ADD sent me on to other things :~)

      As to yield: I'm guessing it doesn't matter much... there is rather a lot of moon rock available ;~)

    2. Re:mass percent oxygen by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      But what of the logistics of bringing processable regolith to the base? I don't know that they've developed large dump trucks for moon use yet.

      The more oxygen per kilo of regolith, the longer it will take to deplete the nearby regolith. The less you have to travel to get processable ore, the more man-hours you can devote to other tasks.

  89. Am I the only one... by tattoi.nobori · · Score: 1
    Doubtless this would be a fantastically huge scientific/engineering milestone, but the contest itself still gives me pause...

    Am I the only one who is unnerved by the thought of an invention that strip-mines The Moon to make oxygen? Depending on the amount of soil required to produce a pound of oxygen, the impact on the surface of our biggest satellite could be quite dire.

    Maybe it's just me...

    1. Re:Am I the only one... by JQuick · · Score: 1

      Wow, what a horrific environmental tragedy!

      By strip mining the surface of the moon we might end up with large areas of the surface which are barren expanses of rock and dust, devoid of soil or life...

      Oh, never mind.

    2. Re:Am I the only one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can stop worrying. The oxygen contained in an acre of soil should be enough to sustain a colony indefinitely. Remember, it is easy to recycle oxygen from CO2 and H2O then it is to mine it. The impact would be nonexistent.

    3. Re:Am I the only one... by jameskojiro · · Score: 0

      Holy crap, we will offend the mooninites!!

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
  90. Sounds easy to me by NewsWatcher · · Score: 1

    Just get a handful of lunar soil, sell it on eBay for a small fortune, and use the money to buy some scuba tanks.

    --
    If the pattern goes 9am, 10am, 11am, why isn't noon 12am?
  91. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

    Where'd you get simulated regolith?

  92. NASA -ffers Reward f-r Extracting -- fr-m M--ndust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I got O7!

  93. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Silentnite · · Score: 1

    That's why its the most popular post in the universe. Way ahead of the "Me too" post, and also a better funded response with more accurate information.

    The people responsible for this post have been sacked. Please return to the post currently in progress.

  94. How about by ksemlerK · · Score: 1

    Would lighting it on fire count as releasing the oxygen?

  95. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by aussie_a · · Score: 1

    Is that one way or return?

  96. Simulant datasheet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  97. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by Nuskrad · · Score: 1

    Have the people responsible for sacking the people responsible for the post been sacked yet?

  98. Reality TV by nounderscores · · Score: 1

    I can just imagine seeing this on Reality TV, except that there is an extra rule where your team will be locked inside an airtight container with their equipment and the moon rock material while they frantically attempt to make breathable air.

    Hi ho, hi ohhh....

  99. Hmm by The+Creator · · Score: 1

    You realize of course that 2096A for 8 hours 16768Ah not 262...

    --

    FRA: STFU GTFO
  100. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by mysterystevenson · · Score: 1

    Yes a very weak prize. If a thousand people spend $10,000 each on research they will have spent 10 million, and that is on the cheap, it may take a lot more to really make a workable system. These space "prizes are an invitation to disaster. Like that Virgin Gimic - more a financed version of Death Trap incorporated than a feasable enterprise. Couldn't pay me enough to fly on that BOMB. Mysterystevenson

    --
    MYSTERY
  101. My submission: by Alsee · · Score: 1

    A suitcase nuke.

    That will separate a hell of a lot more than 11 pounds of oxygen from the lunar regolith in a hell of a lot less than 8 hours. :)

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  102. Government Precedent by Torgen · · Score: 1

    This is similar to when the US Navy in the late 20s/early 30s offered a prize to the company that could develop a diesel engine that would produce a certain number of horsepower while adhering to size and weight constraints so that it could be used for submarine engines. The manufacturers jumped at it not because of the sub contract (which was only good for several dozen engines) but because this engine would be perfect for making railroad locomotives. The winner of the competition could then build the cost of the factory to produce the engines into the government contract, and when the Navy had its sub engines the company could start cranking out locomotives at a higher profit (or undercut the competition) since the capital expenditures were already paid for.

  103. Re:250 grand?? For pulling breathable air from dir by JQuick · · Score: 1

    The risk-reward ratio is way too low on this one. Basically, they're asking for a technological innovation on par with the light bulb

    This is not grand innovation by any interpretation. This challenge, like the others, is about incrementally extending the state of the art. It is about practical, innovative application of technology, not about science.

    Basically, the moon contains a great deal of oxygen, but the vast majority of it is found in molecules which bind the oxygen tightly. Some metallic oxides like iron oxide are fairly easy to crack. On the surface of the earth, iron oxide is abundant. On the moon, however, the most common oxides are of silicon, aluminum, calcium and titanium. These elements are bound very tightly to their oxygen, and require either great deals of energy and/or powerful chemical reagents (reducing agents) to liberate.

    This explains why these elements were not isolated in pure form by chemists until the the first quarter of the 19th century, and in the case of aluminum, why it was far more valuable than gold until the dam at niagara falls produced sufficient cheap power to make production worth while.

    Using Hydrogen as the reducing agent liberates some oxygen cheaply but leaves a great deal behind, but is easier to work with. More powerful agents such as fluorine, or sodium hydroxide are far more effective at reducing these oxides into oxygen and metal. However they are extremely corrosive and pose some tricky engineering challenges.

    For instance, sodium hydroxide is great but requires the use of nickel electrode which are consumed by the reaction. Nickel is very rare on the lunar surface.

    Chlorine, and even carbon based reactions are possible.

    So the challenge is to explore the various engineering trade-offs. Weight, energy input, size, speed, and the amount of raw materials brought from earth and consumed by the process all need to be balanced.

    $250 grand is surely a decent incentive for chemists and engineers to tinker with various designs.

  104. Oh goodness... by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

    That show was baaaaaad. Space: 1999!

  105. I wonder by suitepotato · · Score: 1

    Does NASA know that the IRS and divorce attorneys already have projects regarding the extraction of blood from a stone or is this another case of the left hand not knowing what the right foot is doing?

    BTW, the answer is in biomechanics/technorganics/nanotech so why worry now? I'm sure not too long from now and in semi-unrelated work, someoneone will create a method involving chemical dissolution of the rocks into a liquid that can be passed through microchannel crackers run efficiently on solar energy and the chemical mix reprocessed at the tail end of the closed system to be used over and over again.

    $250K versus what this is truly worth, becoming the largest purveyor of oxygen generators for colonization in this system? Not like some companies haven't already forseen the vast riches in coming up with this stuff. We just haven't been given the cool write-up in SciAm yet.

    --
    If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
  106. Re:Why bother? - Thoughts on Total Recall by iamcf13 · · Score: 1

    I heard/read somewhere that someone said that 'everything south of the opening credits' is part of a Rekall trip. I think that opinion is viable because of how the film opens with Quaid and Melina strolling about on the Martian surface before Quaid has his accident and wakes up next to Lori in the following scene. Perhaps if the movie opened differently, this viewpoint wouldn't be viable. Any comments?

    By the way, the movie is bloody, violent, and well made. described at the time of it's release by one person as 'a head film for action freaks'. It looks like the days of visceral analog filmaking like this are over in favor of the 'new brutalism' of scene after scene after scene of bland, lifeless CGI-enhanced filmmaking.

  107. The obvious solution by sssmashy · · Score: 1

    The power limit of 3kW over 8 hours (24Kwh) is just enough to produce 5kg of O2 by H20 electrolysis in a cell with typical efficiencies.

    This shows that NASA has already anticipated the most obvious solution, which is to pass a stream of hydrogen through the regolith sample that has been thermally activated by solar flux.

    The hydrogen will reduce iron oxides in the sample to produce Fe and H2O. The volatiles from the process(a mixture of gaseous H20 and H2) are cycled into the electrolysis cell and the water is electrolysed back to H2, which is recycled back into the process, and O2. The O2 is then filtered through a platinum membrane or some form of chemical filtration to produce breathable O2 with

    I suspect that the winning system will be some well-engineered implementation of the above process.

    The iron oxides (>5% of the sample) will be the O2 source used by most if not all solutions. Of all the oxides that are present in the sample in meaningful concentrations, they are easiest to reduce. Possible additional steps to improve efficiency: passing a magnet through the sample to separate out some of the iron oxides prior to thermal activation, or some form of density separation. The iron oxides should be relatively easy to separate, given that the JSC-1 regolith simulant is not solid rock but extremely fine-grained powder.

    Another engineering challenge will be the H2/O2 filtration which will have to fast, simple and reliable. Platinum membranes are the obvious choice but chemical separation using Ag2O or other chemicals may be more economical and faster. Once the chemicals have reacted with O2 they can be thermally decomposed at moderate temperatures under 500k to give up their oxygen using readily available solar flux.

    Given the power limits it seems impossible to produce a working solution that doesn't use solar flux. This leads to a number of other engineering challenges, including: a cooling system needed for some designs; a reliable solar concentrating system (using lightweight mylar-like mirrors that track the sun on 2 axes); a sealed, heat-resistant, lightweight reaction vessel with a minimal number of valves and moving parts; and a quartz aperture to admit the concentrated solar radiation.

    All in all, an interesting challenge. $250k hardly seems like a sufficient reward if the challenge produces a successful working prototype!

  108. Tell that to Titan by jameskojiro · · Score: 0

    Tell titan that it's amosphere is will drift away, hmm, titan's atmosphere is a hell of a lot thicker than ours and titan is only a little bit more massive than our moon. I think the moon could support at atmosphere quite nicely if it were artificially generated.

    --
    Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    1. Re:Tell that to Titan by eric76 · · Score: 1

      The rate at which Titan loses it's atmosphere is considerably smaller than if Titan were closer to the sun.

      The moon could support an atmosphere, but it would lose it relatively quickly.

      The earth loses atmosphere into space all the time. I saw a figure once for the rate of loss and it was higher than I would have imagined. Supposedly, the atmosphere of the Earth used to be several times what it is now.

      Stay around long enough and the Earth may not have enough atmosphere for us to survive.

  109. They should be asking community college students!! by My_$0.02 · · Score: 1

    You'd be surprised and the number of breath-able elements can be extracted using alligator clips and a water bong!!

  110. Re:Moon Sweet Moon? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

    didn't appollo use pure oxygen to save on weight?

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    note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  111. Re:Moon Sweet Moon? by nickptar · · Score: 1

    Yes, and that was one of the causes of the Apollo 1 fire.