Vietnam Courts Microsoft and Vice Versa

Further news... by gowen · 2005-06-20 22:45 · Score: 5, Funny

Microsoft vice-president Lyndon Johnson was keen to point out that the first 21,000 people that MS have sent to Vietnam were not classified as salesmen, but are merely civilian "advisors".

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Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.

Re:Further news... by gowen · 2005-06-21 01:52 · Score: 1

Well, I did know that, which is why I described LBJ as VP. I'd've said POTUS JFK but the CEO of MS is BG3.

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Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Re:Further news... by statemachine · 2005-06-21 03:12 · Score: 3, Informative

Thanks for remembering. People aren't taught that fact (the one you referenced) in class, nor is it hardly ever mentioned in documentaries. It is definitely not common knowledge.

My father was one of those "advisors." Long before the Gulf of Tonkin meant anything, my dad was participating in a hot war in Vietnam.

Some people would still argue with me.

BTW, Eisenhower sent in the first wave of troops, not Johnson.

no sense of irony by Anonymous Coward · 2005-06-20 22:49 · Score: 1, Insightful

Wow, Americans compaining about other country's human rights records!

Re:no sense of irony by jcr · 2005-06-20 23:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

Americans, like anyone else, are perfectly entitled to criticise any country's human rights record.

People whose rights are violated in the USA, unlike many other countries, have recourse to a free press and the courts; which is more than can be said for the Socialist Worker's Paradise of Vietnam.

-jcr

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The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:no sense of irony by Xoro · 2005-06-20 23:53 · Score: 1

Wow, Americans compaining about other country's human rights records!

Well, it's the West Coast and all -- do you reckon the protesters could have been Vietnamese? Let's check google...

Vietnamese Americans from around the Northwest are expected to protest tomorrow's history-making visit by Vietnam's prime minister, who will tour a Boeing plant and appear at a noon news conference at the Fairmont Olympic Hotel, Seattle.

"You're going to expect to see a large crowd," said Sai Nguyen of the Vietnamese American Coalition in Northwest America, adding that 500 to 1,000 people might attend rallies at the downtown Federal Building and at the hotel.

Wow, a bunch of refugees mouthing off about their birthplace. How dare they!

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Kill, Tux, kill!
Re:no sense of irony by guet · 2005-06-21 00:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

People whose rights are violated in the USA, unlike many other countries, have recourse to a free press and the courts; which is more than can be said for the Socialist Worker's Paradise of Vietnam.

Actually I'm sorry to say that people just don't have those rights any more in the US. They can be imprisoned without knowing why, their lawer isn't allowed to talk about the charges, they can be deported to third countries for torture or just thrown out of the country (see recent case of an Iranian teenager) or they can be shipped off to someplace like Guantanamo Bay where you have exactly zero rights and are very deliberately dehumanized. Now you can argue about the justification for this if you like, but the US would rank well below Canada and many European countries (just for example) in a scale of civil rights or freedom right now.

Your point about it being quite possible for US citizens to criticise other nations is spot on though, whatever their govt. is doing.
Re:no sense of irony by Anonymous Coward · 2005-06-21 00:04 · Score: 1, Insightful

Yes indeed, prisoners at Abu Grabe, Bagram Airport and Camp X-Ray have easy access to Fox news reporters, what *was* the OP thinking!
Re:no sense of irony by rsynnott · 2005-06-21 00:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

MANY European nations? ;) Are you counting Bellorus as European or something?...

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Me (Blog)
Re:no sense of irony by geoffrobinson · 2005-06-21 00:20 · Score: 1

It's only ironic to those who classify too much AC in a movie theater as a gulag. Or McDonald's stopping breakfast at 11AM.

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Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Re:no sense of irony by imogthe · 2005-06-21 00:27 · Score: 1

I'm certain you are aware of Guantanamo bay then: Varying degrees of discomfort and a distinct lack of trials, courts, press and the like.
Oh... I forgot... that place is not on American soil.. just run by the American government. That changes everything

Now, I am fully aware that, as with any country, America is made up of a plethora of different ideas and opinions. I am also certain that many americans were quite upset with the entire Guantanamo thing and would rather not have anything to do with it. But I'm sure you can see the irony of americans demonstrating agains human rights abuse, when the US has been accused of shipping people abroad for torture. (I can't remember whether this accusation actually led to anything though)

You know the words: stones, glass house, throwing. Some assembly required:)
Re:no sense of irony by marsu_k · 2005-06-21 01:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

Guantanamo Bay is a POW camp, plain and simple.
Really? How is it then that the detainees haven't been granted POW status?
Re:no sense of irony by jcr · 2005-06-21 01:11 · Score: 1, Funny

You do go on and on with your unfounded speculation as to my position, don't you?

-jcr

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The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:no sense of irony by jcr · 2005-06-21 01:20 · Score: 1

They may not have access to reporters, but they're sure getting a lot of press. QED.

-jcr

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The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:no sense of irony by magarity · 2005-06-21 01:24 · Score: 1

Americans compaining about other country's human rights records

Yeah, the same Americans who 35 years ago were protesting the US's attempt to keep the communists from taking over Vietnam are now complaining that said communists are running a repressive regime.
Re:no sense of irony by elrous0 · 2005-06-21 01:26 · Score: 2

Tell me, how many US citizens can you name that have been shipped there?
U.S. citizens are being held in other detainment facilities across the country with a similar "no legal rights status". Here in South Carolina, there is one being held at the Charleston naval base.

As for how many other citizens are being held across the country or at Gitmo. We have no idea.

Why? Because the government refuses to tell us.

-Eric

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SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:no sense of irony by elrous0 · 2005-06-21 01:29 · Score: 1

Not really. There are prisoners in a military jail in Norfolk who the gov't has labeled as terrorists and they have no access to lawyers.
Ditto here in SC, at the Charleston Naval Base. And he's a U.S. citizen, no less.

-Eric

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SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:no sense of irony by magarity · 2005-06-21 01:32 · Score: 1

How is it then that the detainees haven't been granted POW status?

Why do you bother to ask when the link you've given spells it out in plain English?!?

I recommend everyone babbling about inhumane treatment read that link; see esp. the list of what all detainees are being provided daily. Compare with treatment of Americans captured in Iraq. Note that "Heads sawed off with knives" is not on the GB prisoner's list.
Re:no sense of irony by rben · 2005-06-21 01:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

Actually, it isn't ironic at all. I'm one of those Americans who protests human rights abuses of other countries. I also protest the ones committed by my own government. I didn't vote for this administration and I have done what I could to make my voice heard through letters and email to my legislative representatives.

What is ironic, is when President Bush or Ms. Rice makes accusations about human rights abuses, not when U.S. citizens who honestly deplore what our own government has been doing do so.

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-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra
Re:no sense of irony by Anonymous Coward · 2005-06-21 01:49 · Score: 1, Insightful

I think you know the answer, but i will indulge you anyways. They were not granted POW status becauase they were not uniformed combatants. They are terrorists and saboteurs. Guantanamo Bay is just an example of the new and unique 21st century touchy-feely form of warfare. Rather than summarily executing these individuals,as would likely have been done in any pre-Vietnam conflict, we have chosen to be "humane" and "warehouse" them at Gitmo instead. This compromise exposes the United States to apparently never ending criticism from the U.N. worshiping socialist crowd. The very same crowd who failed, for 50 years, to criticize the Soviets for their gulags, still consider communism a "noble experiment" (although they've relabeled it progressivism and conveniently forgotten the fact that it is the social system that led to the murder of ~100 million human beings last century), scream bloody murder when the Koran is "mishandled", yet -under their breath- suggest that the thousands of businessmen and women killed on 9/11 were complicit in "globalization" and cautiously imply that their deaths might be justifiable "on some level."
Re:no sense of irony by 1u3hr · 2005-06-21 02:08 · Score: 1

Yeah, the same Americans who 35 years ago were protesting the US's attempt to keep the communists from taking over Vietnam are now complaining that said communists are running a repressive regime.
Actually, the Americans compalaining about the Vietnam govt in this instance are mostly Vietnam-born, mostly form the South I'd guess. So no irony there I'm afraid.
Re:no sense of irony by suitepotato · 2005-06-21 02:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

Not a flame here. I want to know. Show us solid examples of this happening on an every day basis and not of foreign nationals without clearance to be here, people who violated the terms of their visas, etc. Show where a natural born American citizen who has not been engaged in terrorism or linked to it has been sent to Guantanamo.

Pure FUD. If it weren't, you would not have been allowed to make your post and have been arrested and sent off to some mythical gulag by now.

I suggest calming down and getting a grip. BTW, for those of you who are in tinfoil hat FUD land, Microsoft isn't sending people in black helicopters to install Windows on your Linux boxes either.

The volume of dissent and paranoid fear mongering is inversely proportional to the level of civil rights in any given place. IOW, you don't hear this talk in Vietnam, because they'd shoot you in the head and be done with it before you spat out more than a few sentences.

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If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Re:no sense of irony by OreoCookie · 2005-06-21 02:42 · Score: 1

Uhmm.. Bullshit. US citizens rights are fully intact. The POW's at Guantanamo are not US citizens. Have you forgotten "The American Taliban" fighter John Walker Lindh who, even though he was found on the battlefield in Afganistan, was afforded full access to lawyers and the courts in the US and who is now serving his time in a US prison? And why is it that the parent doesn't get modded Off Topic but this reply will be?
Re:no sense of irony by koi88 · 2005-06-21 03:25 · Score: 1

Actually, we always have our rights. Violence infringes our rights, it does not cause them not to exist.

You want to say: "Don't worry, in theory you still have you rights."
That probably doesn't help those people who spend years in prison in the US and other places who have no possibility to go to court.

If the government is so sure the prisoners in Guantanamo are terrorists, why aren't they brought to trial?

Doesn't the American government trust the American legal system? How is it possible the executive branch can do that? What happened to the separation of powers?

This post is going to cost a lot of Karma, I know...

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I don't need a signature.
Re:no sense of irony by koi88 · 2005-06-21 03:40 · Score: 1

Show where a natural born American citizen who has not been engaged in terrorism or linked to it has been sent to Guantanamo.

Don't you think this should be a court's task, to determine whether somebody is or is not linked to terrorism and what the punishment should be?

Is it right that an army officer who doesn't even speak the other person's language decides on somebody else's future by saying: "I believe he is connected in terrorism, let's send him to Guantanamo." I know officers. I wouldn't let them decide on anything but the color of their cars.

I believe a fair trial is every person's right, American or not.
"The land of the free"... because everybody else is granted no freedom?

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I don't need a signature.
Re:no sense of irony by LifesABeach · 2005-06-21 03:43 · Score: 1

A person listens to a conversation that involves a combination of murder, theft, and fraud. What is the "right" action to do? It is clear that there are bad people on both sides of the Al Kida platforum. What I find even more troubling are people that would profit in the name of the Profit.
Re:no sense of irony by jcr · 2005-06-21 03:54 · Score: 4, Insightful

You want to say: "Don't worry, in theory you still have you rights."

No, I said what I wanted to say. Rights are rights, and their infringment doesn't negate them. The Japanese Americans who were put in concentration camps by Roosevelt's regime were eventually able to obtain redress in court, because their rights still exist.

The important point here, is that governments do not create rights. People create governments to secure our rights. When governments fail in that duty, then it's time to throw them out, and institute a new government in place of the one that failed. (Ex: the American Revolution, the English Civil War, the Armed Struggle against Apartheid, etc.)

-jcr

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The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:no sense of irony by superyooser · 2005-06-21 04:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

You expect someone whose rights have been quashed to all of a sudden have the unimpeded right to talk about it? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In fact, you should conclude the opposite
Yes, yes indeed. Makes you wonder how we hear so many tales of torture and abuse coming out of Gitmo. You'd think they'd all be dead or shut up in dungeons never to be heard from again.
Re:no sense of irony by frank_adrian314159 · 2005-06-21 05:38 · Score: 1

What is ironic, is when President Bush or Ms. Rice makes accusations about human rights abuses...
It's not ironic.

It's hypocritical.

Get the terminology right, people...

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That is all.
Re:no sense of irony by GypC · 2005-06-21 06:51 · Score: 1

They're not American citizens and are not entitled to a civil trial anymore than a captured Nazi would have been 60 years ago. They have already been found guilty by a military tribunal; to have these trials publically would jeopardize the lives of our intelligence operatives.

They are illegal combatants. Do you understand what this means? They are not protected by the Geneva convention. Why? Because they don't wear uniforms. Why is this so bad? Because uniforms are the way armies protect their people; they say "We're the ones to shoot at, please don't shoot at those other people, they are just civilians." To betray the innocent by hiding among them is the among the basest of all war crimes, second only to their favorite passtime of actively blowing up innocent people to incite terror.

These people are the lowest of all scum, and Gitmo is much better than they deserve.
Re:no sense of irony by 2short · 2005-06-21 07:29 · Score: 1

I do not believe we ought to wait until it is happening on an every day basis before getting worked up about it.

Jose Padilla is an American citizen. He has been in prison for three years now. He has not been charged with anything; no evidence against him has been presented. He has been "linked to" terrorism only to the extent that the executive branch has said he is. No evidence has been presented supporting this, because, according to the administration, they can imprison him indefinitely based entirely on their say-so, without involving the courts in any way.

Note that I am not suggesting that Padilla is a nice guy, or that I know he is innocent. In fact, I know basically nothing of the facts of his case, as they have never been presented. Please do not tell me "But he's a terrorist!", because the only reason you think so is because the administration says so. They've been quite happy to say so in front of the press, and entirely unwilling to say so under oath in front of a Judge.

Imprisoning him in this manner is not legal. The Constitution is not vauge on this point. The fifth amendment says:
"No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law ..."
You can look it up yourself, but I assure you that my elipsis above do not exclude a clause that says "Unless you use the magic 't' word".

I think you meant that the level of dissent is directly proportional to the level of civil rights, as opposed to inversely. In any case, you seem to imply that having strong civil rights causes loud protests from people who think those rights are in danger. I suggest to you that the causitive relationship goes the other way.

As far as the poster who suggested the US should not be criticizing Vietnams human rights record, obviously he has little sense of proportion, or little idea of the state of human rights in Vietnam. Human rights are in much better shape in the US. But to you I say, I like it that way, so I'm sure as hell going to get pissed about the wholesale elimination of those rights currently taking place.

The US Constitution, the treaties we have signed, and our laws are not general guidelines. They are strict rules. They are all that protect our freedom from a slow slide into totalitarianism. Even if these rules are inconvenient, allowing the administration to simply ignore them is dangerous. The actual ignoring itself is illegal, and should be the subject of criminal prosecution.
Re:no sense of irony by snorklewacker · 2005-06-21 07:51 · Score: 1

> They are illegal combatants. Do you understand what this means?

Yes, anyone the president says is. The whole notion of "illegal combatant" has zero basis in law.

> These people are the lowest of all scum, and Gitmo is much better than they deserve.

Because they're all guilty, right? Who says so? Here's a clue for ya: camp x-ray is considered a HOLDING facility. Not a prison. See if a thought begins to percolate in your brain regarding that fact.

But hey, I guess all the other jihadists are going to say "oh dear, we better not try anything, they're holding a couple hundred folks in that awful place". So we're all safe. Go ahead and take your fucking blue pill now.

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I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
Re:no sense of irony by halltk1983 · 2005-06-21 08:40 · Score: 1

An essay on why this is bad, written by someone much more eloquent than I shall ever be.

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Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
Re:no sense of irony by good+soldier+svejk · 2005-06-21 09:23 · Score: 1

Not wearing a uniform does not automatically make you an unlawful combatant. In the first place, the Geneva Conventions do not mention uniforms. The Third Convention mentions "a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance." More importantly, citizens have a right to defend their country, regardless of their military status or appearance. Article four, section A of the Third Geneva Convention specifically defines such resistors as lawful combatants,

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Regardless, I find your position on guerrilla warfare shockingly simplistic. You are saying that the Jewish, Polish, Russian etc. partisans who resisted the Nazi attempt to eradicate their entire ethnicities were "the basest of all war criminals." On behalf of all my dead partisan relatives, I am offended. Furthermore, I don't see how either of us could know enough about the individual prisoners at Guantanamo to determine the propriety of their legal status. And lastly, even if every single prisoner is not a legal combatant entitled to POW status, that does not mean they are devoid of rights under the Conventions. The Fourth Convention states that they are entitled to "humane treatment" and in the case of criminal allegations, a "fair trial."

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It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man

-James Baldwin
Re:no sense of irony by jcr · 2005-06-21 15:53 · Score: 1

An even more important question is, how come the USA hasn't declared war on anyone since 1941? There's a reason why the power to declare war was reserved to the congress in the constitution.

-jcr

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The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:no sense of irony by GypC · 2005-06-22 01:19 · Score: 1

No, sir. They are illegal combatants as defined by the Geneva convention you're always whining about.
I've already told you already who says they're guilty. They've all been judged by a military tribunal.
Re:no sense of irony by GypC · 2005-06-22 01:29 · Score: 1

Except that they do not carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. They use civilians as shields and cover, or just blow them up to make some kind of sick statement.

They are very well treated for the most part. They are well fed and clothed, given Korans and oils and arrows to Mecca and calls to prayer...

Yes, they are sometimes subjected to lengthy interrogations in an effort to save innocent lives. Sometimes they are extremely uncomfortable during these interrogations. Under no circumstances are they beaten, burned, electrocuted, or maimed as they often do to their own prisoners.
Re:no sense of irony by snorklewacker · 2005-06-22 02:20 · Score: 1

> No, sir. They are illegal combatants as defined by the Geneva convention you're always whining about.

Search the convention. You'll find it nowhere.

I would just write you off as a troll, but dumbfuck trolls like you are responsible for murdering thousands and enraging the rest of the world, who will no doubt cheer all the louder when the next plane hits.

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I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
Re:no sense of irony by GypC · 2005-06-22 02:33 · Score: 1

Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

...

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

...

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

You are the troll. You are also an ignorant lout who's kneejerk anti-Americanism is nothing more than boutique politics.
Re:no sense of irony by HuguesT · 2005-06-22 02:37 · Score: 1

Some clarifications,

The Geneva convention does define what "unlawful combattants" are but goes on to say that

Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified (as POW or to be set free), article 5 insists that they "shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal"

Read the reference

There hasn't been any trial in Guantanamo Bay yet.

Those trials have been announced for a long time but none have taken place yet.
Re:no sense of irony by good+soldier+svejk · 2005-06-22 02:52 · Score: 1

Except that they do not carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. They use civilians as shields and cover, or just blow them up to make some kind of sick statement.
I don't understand. To my knowledge these were combatants captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan, not car bombers caught attacking civilian targets. You'll have to be more specific in your allegations. Otherwise your argument is weak. The ICRC says that they qualify as POWs under the Geneva accords. More importantly, under the Geneva accords, a party to conflict can't unilaterally declare combatants illegal. Combatant status disputes are settled by international tribunal. Geneva specifically protected informal combatants in response to Germany's wartime policy of torture, execution and collective punishment for "terrorism" (which is what they called guerrilla warfare).

Again, you make a great deal of the criminality of the guerrilla fish swimming in the civilian water (to paraphrase Mao). This is the reality of asymmetric warfare. It is what allows the weak to resist the strong. It is what allowed Jews and Poles to resist the Germans (who fully intended to exterminate them all). As Larbi Ben M'Hidi told a reporter shortly before French paratroopers murdered him in his cell,"Of course, if we had your airplanes it would be a lot easier for us. Give us your bombers, and you can have our baskets."

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It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man

-James Baldwin
Re:no sense of irony by some+guy+I+know · 2005-06-22 04:15 · Score: 1

You don't think that Americans have these rights? Tell you what, put a chinese citizen on a TV show and have him on a daily basis bash the president and show every single fault and see what happens to him.
The fact that you are reduced to saying "The USA's human rights record is better than China's." is a sad indication of how far our rights have been eroded.
Similarly, Charles Manson didn't murder as many people as Ted Bundy.
Hitler's human rights record was better than Stalin's.
And the USA's human rights record is better than China's.
Yes, what a ringing endorsement that is.

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Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
Re:no sense of irony by GypC · 2005-06-24 08:21 · Score: 1

They are not being beaten.
If you consider sleep deprivation, uncomfortable (but not dangerous) temperatures, light shoving and chest poking with a finger, shouting mean things, loud rap music, and scantily clad yet domineering female interrogators torture, then you are incredibly naive. Mind you, these techniques are only employed during the occasional interrogation, not on a daily basis.

Well, the loud rap music may be cruel and unusual, but the rest sounds a heck of a lot better than, say, boot camp in the Marines.

Re:This being America.... by gmac63 · 2005-06-20 22:51 · Score: 1

.... and it wasn't a war, it was a "Police Action" (or so they'll have you think).

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INSERT INTO comment VALUE('Doh!') WHERE user='you';

Future partnership for MS? by SysKoll · 2005-06-20 22:53 · Score: 1, Insightful

I suggest MS should look into a alliance with the somewhat misunderstood government of Zimbabwe, which is currently writing a whole new chapter in the human right violation book.

I mean, if you start buttering up the worst tyrants of the planet, you shouldn't stop at puny Vietnam, right?

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Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

And again by FidelCatsro · 2005-06-20 22:55 · Score: 1, Insightful

MS forces its way into another market with pay-offs completely ignoring the countries Human Rights abuses . You know they could of leveraged their position a little for some good , since they are going to be giving them a lot of software , they could of asked politely that they try to clean up their human rights record a little. You then get a PR coup for MS and the Vietnamese officials and a victory for people.
That's just dreaming though , Admittedly companies have no need to do anything like this , it would be nice if they did though

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The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though

Re:And again by gowen · 2005-06-20 23:31 · Score: 1, Offtopic

perfectly grammatically correct
It's grammatically correct. The only problem is, it doesn't mean what you think it does (if it means anything at all).

"Could've" is fine, and correct, and actually means something.

"I could of died", is the conditional of "I of died", which is meaningless.

--
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Re:And again by Anonymous Coward · 2005-06-20 23:58 · Score: 1, Interesting
The words "could" and "of" most certainly can not "logically be placed together". What is logical about the phrase "I could of had another slice of cake."?

The only people who believe that "could of" is logical or grammatically correct are those who have absorbed too much Hooked on Phonics and believe that words are always spelled as they are pronounced. These people then go on to spell common English words and phrases in their own accent, flattening and elongating letters and syllables as required until it "sounds right". Thus we get ridiculous words and phrases such as
- "could of" instead of "could have"
- "studdering" instead of "stuttering" and many other forms of swapping "t" for "d"
- People actually writing "y'awl"
- All sorts of other complete nonsense
I am constantly amazed that some people can take the greatest communications medium man has ever known and use to communicate so poorly that even other native speakers have difficulty understanding what a person is trying to say. When did it become O.K. to talk like a brain addled drug addict, mumbling and typo-ing your way through life? How about non-native English speakers, who have to expand more energy than should be required to decipher someone elses poorly spelled, poorly constructed sentences? They have been taught correct English and know how to the language correctly; they're at a distinct disadvantage when "the innernet" is infested with lazy, sloppy idiots who can't spell and don't care.
Re:And again by magarity · 2005-06-21 01:40 · Score: 1

You then get a PR coup for MS and the Vietnamese officials

You seem innocently naive of southeast Asian politics. A foriegn company asking for human rights improvements would be a HUGE insult to said Vietnamese officials. They'd probably go home and kick a few peasants just for spite.
Re:And again by FidelCatsro · 2005-06-21 02:00 · Score: 1

I've just been doing a large amount of reading concerning the Sino conflicts and history of the region since the opium wars and cheerfully retract the statement(as well as a bit of reading about the history of split from china ).

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The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Re:And again by 1u3hr · 2005-06-21 02:45 · Score: 1

You know they could of leveraged their position a little for some good , since they are going to be giving them a lot of software
Vietnam already has all the MS software they could want. What this is doing is legitimizing it, as MS did recently by "selling" 50,000 licences to the govt of Indonesia for bootleg software they were already running. Most likely the US govt has been leaning on them, and as Vietnam now exports a lot to the US, (I just heard that the US is Vietnam's largest trading partner now, probably for textiles and shoes) they had to pay attention or face trade sanctions.

Heh by kahei · 2005-06-20 22:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Weird, because previously the Vietnamese were known for their choice of light, modifiable systems that proved very effective against monolithic, bloated American engineering.

Now it'll be the other way around -- take that, Charlie!

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Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.

Re:Heh by NitsujTPU · 2005-06-21 06:47 · Score: 1

Why do you bother with that jBrowse product then, rather than using some web browser made in a different country.

For that matter, why are you using IE if you hate MS so much?

Re:What will become of this...? by gowen · 2005-06-20 22:57 · Score: 1, Funny

Windows VC is just another name for Windows ME.

Because if you buy it, you end up looking a right Charlie.

--
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.

Right .. by torpor · 2005-06-20 22:58 · Score: 1

.. and, what better way to bring tyrants down than to have them using Microsoft software, right?

I mean, sure. Tyrants need computing too. No reason they should be allowed to use Free/Open Source Software to do their repression...

--
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --

Re:Right .. by tomhudson · 2005-06-20 23:16 · Score: 1

Hey, this is a *Good Thing*. Think of it - hopefully the Vietnam KrazieGuys^W Leaders will insist on upgrading their launch control systems to Longhorn ... and trying to get them to run on their coal-burning 8088 PCs.
We may actually end up with a live re-enactment of that scene in South Park where the general says "Get me Bill Gates" ... and shoots him ... win-win all around.
Re:Right .. by dagr8tim · 2005-06-20 23:17 · Score: 1

Isn't it more of a case that MS is trying to undermine the competition?

--
"Does your computer have IP on it?"
Re:Right .. by FidelCatsro · 2005-06-21 00:01 · Score: 1

If they do get the nukes running on windows , lets just hope they do as a lot of MS programs do and call home

--
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though

Horrific by Anonymous Coward · 2005-06-20 23:02 · Score: 5, Insightful

As if the US hadn't already done enough terrible things to this country. ;-D

Joke aside, I don't really see the relevance of the story. MS has relationships with many governments, that the Vietnamese governemnt is now also among them doesn't strike me as exceptional.

Finally, I also don't understand what mentioning the human rights situation in Vietnam has to do with this article. Don't get me wrong, pointing this situation out is important, but why in this context?

MS and other big software houses do frequently deal with nations that have a very bad track record when it comes to human rights. (And in case you didn't notice, free software does too. Just think about China using Linux). So I again have to ask: What's the news?

Re:Horrific by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · 2005-06-20 23:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm not so much disagreeing (I agree with much of your argument), just picking up on your comments about Linux being used in places with poor human rights records: a central tenet of the GPL (and some other free software licenses) is that *no*restrictions* be placed on where the software is used. This sounds absurd, until you recall South Africa: I believe that there's still software kicking around that technically can't be used in South Africa "because of Apartheid".

Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code, but I'm prepared to sacrifice that in order that $REFORMED_DEMOCRACY can use the same code *in*the*future*.

--
This is where the serious fun begins.
Re:Horrific by rsynnott · 2005-06-21 00:09 · Score: 1

But who'd make the call who was a human rights violator? Would the US's torturers in Guantanamo and Iraq be counted (yes, it is torture. It's torture as defined by the UN, EU, and even the Israeli supreme court)?

--
Me (Blog)
Re:Horrific by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · 2005-06-21 00:28 · Score: 1

But who'd make the call who was a human rights violator?

Well, I'd argue - from a free-software POV - that no-one should. I might personally prefer it if, say, the US DoD was prevented from using my (hypothetical) software package, but how do I put that into the license? Do I have exceptions for humanitarian operations? Who decides?

So, much as I hate it, I feel it's better if free software licenses *don't* prohibit entire countries from using them.

--
This is where the serious fun begins.
Re:Horrific by Peter+La+Casse · 2005-06-21 01:31 · Score: 1

Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code
If somebody's willing to violate someone else's human rights, then they're probably willing to violate someone else's copy rights.
Re:Horrific by 1u3hr · 2005-06-21 02:55 · Score: 1

Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code, but I'm prepared to sacrifice that in order that $REFORMED_DEMOCRACY can use the same code *in*the*future*.
I recently found some software AiR-Boot that was briefly GPL, but since the invasion of Iraq the author changed the terms and now says "You may only use this software, if you are NOT and were NEVER working for american (US) government at any time", also moving it from a US to a Russian server.
Re:Horrific by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · 2005-06-21 03:06 · Score: 1

I think this highlights the problem with being dogmatic on licenses: how many "good" (subjective) people once worked for the US government, and - for whatever reason - don't anymore? This license explicity bars them from using AiR-Boot. I'd go further and say there are "good" (there's that word again...) people *still* working for the US government. Hell, the US government is more than just the Whitehouse and the DoD. What about aid projects? The US Geological Survey? The National parks Service?

--
This is where the serious fun begins.
Re:Horrific by 1u3hr · 2005-06-21 03:17 · Score: 1

I think this highlights the problem with being dogmatic on licenses
It also shows that putting pressure on governments rarely affects those who make hte decsions you disagree with; as for instance the sanctions against Iran after 1991 killed many children leaving Saddam's fat from black marketeering.
Re:Horrific by John+Newman · 2005-06-21 03:49 · Score: 1

Joke aside, I don't really see the relevance of the story. MS has relationships with many governments, that the Vietnamese governemnt is now also among them doesn't strike me as exceptional.

Finally, I also don't understand what mentioning the human rights situation in Vietnam has to do with this article. Don't get me wrong, pointing this situation out is important, but why in this context?
This is an actual current-events story that somehow made it onto /.. It's was one of the top local stories yesterday, and even got a bit of play nationally. The story was:
a) Vietnamese PM stops in Seattle for a day on his way to DC
b) meets with Boeing and MS execs to talk trade, because he wants their help in lobbying Bush to support Vietnam's entry into the WTO
c) local human rights advocates - and much of the (sizable) Seattle Vietnamese community - protested his every move in Seattle

There. It's not exeptional or striking, it's just what happened. [shrug] I suppose it's not every day that a foreign head of government visits Seattle and kowtows to local business leaders. That seems like news. I think it is interesting, that of all the places in the US to visit before hitting the White House, the PM chose Boeing and MS in Seattle.
Re:Horrific by 1u3hr · 2005-06-21 03:50 · Score: 1

Stupd typos, sorry:
It also shows that putting pressure on governments rarely affects those who make the decisions you disagree with; as for instance the sanctions against Iraq after 1991 killed many children leaving Saddam's fat from black-marketeering.

Minnie Rosoft by EzInKy · 2005-06-20 23:04 · Score: 3, Funny

I courted Mike Rosoft's sister Minnie for a while. She sure was pretty to look at but turned all shades of blue anytime I suggested trying something new.

Had to dump her in the end though because she was simply the most vain and jealous woman I'd ever met...always wanted to monopolize everything.

--
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

ahem... by maeddi · 2005-06-20 23:07 · Score: 5, Informative

http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=usa

Re:ahem... by jcr · 2005-06-20 23:49 · Score: 1

While you're at it: let's see Vietnam's record as well.

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:ahem... by rsynnott · 2005-06-21 00:12 · Score: 1

Yep, but Vietnam doesn't PRETEND to have decent human rights. Hmm, wonder what a "substandard prison camp" is? Is guantanamo?

--
Me (Blog)
Re:ahem... by jcr · 2005-06-21 01:18 · Score: 1

Yep, but Vietnam doesn't PRETEND to have decent human rights.

Oh, yes they do. Pretense is right at the top of the list of activities for any government, and the commies are no exception.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."

Does this mean... by 16K+Ram+Pack · 2005-06-20 23:09 · Score: 5, Funny

... that Charlie will surf, and with Internet Explorer?

Re:Does this mean... by dedeman · 2005-06-21 03:18 · Score: 1

Hey, if Bill Gates says it's safe to surf with IE, it's safe to surf with IE!

Now, do you want to surf or fight?

No hard feelings. by delire · 2005-06-20 23:17 · Score: 1, Troll

Bill: Phan, can I take off a little economic load while ensuring long term technological dependence on my software and rendering you less competitive in Asia for decades?

Phan: I guess (sighs).

$$HICK $$HING

Bill: How does that feel?

Phan: Pretty weird really, I thought all that stuff you said at dinner last night was honest, y'know about empowering people and stuff.

Bill: Well, right now I need as many footholds in Asia as possible to help stay a unilateral exploration of alternatives to vendor lock-in, especially in this region. No hard feelings? I want to do this together Phan. You and me. It'll be like Bonnie and Clyde but with IntelliMice instead of guns.

Phan: I guess, no hard feelings.

Bill: I feel we really understand each other.

Phan: Me too, Americans have been really nasty to us in the past. Thanks Bill.. Can you call me "Phan The Man"?

Bill: It would be my pleasure.

Phan: Can I call you "Billy G"?

Bill: Absolutely not.

Phan: (sighs)

Re:No hard feelings. by Leers · 2005-06-21 03:01 · Score: 1

No no. It went like this:
Phan: Main screen turn on.
Bill: All your base are belong to us.
Make your time.

This doesn't change anything by donscarletti · 2005-06-20 23:18 · Score: 1, Offtopic

Now remember, nomatter what happens with Microsoft and the Vietnamese government or making censorship software for China, it's still Linux that's the un-democratic, commie OS that is against the principles of the United States, freedom, peace and everything that is fair and just.

If you say otherwise you're just a commie too. Good freedom loving software is made in Redmond.

--
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem

Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get training? by museumpeace · 2005-06-20 23:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

...as well as provide software training for 50,000 of the country's teachers....
The US has more than 3 times the population of Viet Nam. Do we have 50000 teachers who have some IT training?
Just put this story together with yesterday's story about US students turning away from computer related careers. What does Viet Nam's government do to get something out of Microsoft that our own state and national govt won't do?

--
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.

Protests in Seattle by FridayBob · 2005-06-20 23:22 · Score: 1

No, no! You don't understand. Bill is simply injecting goodness into Vietnam via the backdoor. Once everybody over there is running Windows, the country will be at peace and all political prisoners will be released.

Re:Protests in Seattle by dannyitc · 2005-06-21 00:07 · Score: 1

Or maybe once everybody over there is running Windows, the country's information infrastructure will collapse upon itself, paving the way for the institution of a new open-source government by the people and for the people.
Re:Protests in Seattle by TheKidWho · 2005-06-21 00:21 · Score: 1

Yes because the US's IT infrastructure has been getting ready to collapse every day for the past 15 years because we have been using Windows in the majority of computers...
Re:Protests in Seattle by mrisaacs · 2005-06-21 01:20 · Score: 1

...the country will be at peace and all political prisoners will be released... when the servers controlling them experience the BSOD... :)

--
...carrier dead.....

As they say by FidelCatsro · 2005-06-20 23:29 · Score: 1

Birds of a feather ,they flock together

--
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though

I think it by suezz · 2005-06-20 23:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

speaks volumes when the first time a head of a country comes to the US in over thrity years goes to Microsoft first and then Washington.

Scarry - very scarry.

Re:I think it by HungWeiLo · 2005-06-21 03:06 · Score: 1

Yes, I noticed that too. I was suprised that a quick stop at the "US Embassy" at Bentonville, AR was not scheduled.

--
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Re:I think it by magarity · 2005-06-22 09:10 · Score: 1

Well, Seattle *is* on the Pacific coast, after all.

Re:Righ[tt] .. by tomhudson · 2005-06-20 23:35 · Score: 1

Isn't it more of a case that MS is trying to undermine the competition?

Not really - since they're a monopoly who can't stand any competition, their number one job is to undermine themselves. Hence Longhorn, Vietnam, etc. Gotta keep the dogs of war^W^W^Wmarketing machine sharp!

Getting there first by joshsnow · 2005-06-20 23:44 · Score: 1

MS are obviously trying to head off a wholesale take up of Linux based systems. Also probably trying to head off piracy - or at least laying the groundwork for that.

Wonder if they'll sell a special "light" version of windows.

Kilgore was RIGHT! by panic_smooth · 2005-06-20 23:50 · Score: 2, Funny

I'm quite sure that MSIE will ensure Charlie don't surf!.

--

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini by Rakishi · 2005-06-20 23:55 · Score: 1

IT training probably means "since you will never own a computer, let us show you how to use one." And given that the US has millions of teachers, yes there probably are 50k with the same level of IT training.

Re:Righ[tt] .. by dagr8tim · 2005-06-20 23:55 · Score: 1

Not really - since they're a monopoly who can't stand any competition, their number one job is to undermine themselves. I meant their competition as a tyrant that cares little or none about people. Hey....wait....speaking of that why hasn't the RIAA & MS squared off yet?

--
"Does your computer have IP on it?"

people look happy in Vietnam by dario_moreno · 2005-06-20 23:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

I just spent two weeks in Vietnam, and people look quite happy to me...and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore, especially not in shops selling bootleg MP3 and software CDs at 1$ apiece ! There even was very expensive engineering software like Patran. The good thing when you buy a Windows CD there (or DVD for 3$ ) is that when you install it, Office magically appears already configured in several languages with all extensions, as well as Photoshop or Acrobat, Norton and so on. So Microsoft is actually able to put on the market distributions competitive with Linux, usable out-of the box ! Very interesting also in Saigon-HMC : the museum of american war crimes in Vietnam (called now the Museum against war or something like that for political correctness). The very disturbing pictures of agent-orange children or torched villages help to relativize the alleged human rights violations...

--
Google passes Turing test : see my journal

Re:people look happy in Vietnam by TheKidWho · 2005-06-21 00:24 · Score: 1

In case you didn't notice, the people protesting are Vietnamese Americans...
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by glMatrixMode · 2005-06-21 00:34 · Score: 1

and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore

Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

In Vietnam, today, people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state. Let alone running a successful business. No real criticism of the state is tolerated. When sending mail to your Vietnamese friends, never send a CD-R. The government will open your mail and check for political/ideological content.

Yet, you are right to say that the Viets are quite happy. But happy != free. And about every Viet would love to move to America, if he/she could. No, I'm not American.

--
War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by elrous0 · 2005-06-21 01:10 · Score: 1

people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state. Let alone running a successful business. No real criticism of the state is tolerated.
And that's different from the U.S. how, exactly?

Just try moving around the U.S. without a driver's license, proof of insurance, car registration, etc. some time. Or try running a business without a business license and IRS paperwork. See what happens.

And, God help those who are critical of the state these days.

-Eric

--
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by dario_moreno · 2005-06-21 02:26 · Score: 1

to reply to parent and grandparent, you are both right, in the US people are free but not happy...and indeed, the concept of democracy seems to me as much "in principle only" in both countries. Even in Soviet Russia (no slashjoke here) there were free and open elections in principle, the Com. Party being there only to enforce a political vision but not to control the state. It's the same in Vietnam I think. Besides, at the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe, the parties gracefully retired without bloodshed, having understood that the people wanted something else ; that proves that there was some democracy. Recently, in Europe, the governments in place did not seem to understand the message sent by the referenda about the european constitution ; they just stay in place, "business as usual". One wonders were democracy really is.

--
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by greendot · 2005-06-21 03:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

They don't call it "Communism". That is our label. And from a political point of view, I don't know if they really see voting as that much of a benefit. The fact that you state it this way shows that you're still stuck in the 1970's.

They see their political ladder as a series of steps fueled by corruption. And guess what, they see ours the same way. And maybe they're better off because they're not dupped by lies.

I spent a year there and never once had a good argument as to why democracy was better. The only thing I could think of is that we have the freedom to protest and complain.

When you sit down with a Vietnamese person and compare notes, the USA is not the land of milk and honey. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Just start going down the list of all the different the US/state/county/city governments can enforce their will on you and I bet your list will be longer than theirs.

In Vietnam, today, people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state.

I don't think that's true. I know three people who have moved within the past few years and I never heard them mention having to get cleared by the gov to do so. Maybe they did but it's such a no-brainer that it doesn't bother them.

Let alone running a successful business.

What is that supposed to mean? The business world is completely different there. There are a lot of private successful businesses... and there are successful state-run businesses. But, just like anywhere, you have to know your market. I hope you're not implying that everything is state-run.

No real criticism of the state is tolerated.

Right now, this is probably true. And to a point, it is understandable. They had a civil war. The people involved in that civil war are still alive. Most of the youth (under 30) think the government is just fine and don't complain anyway.

When sending mail to your Vietnamese friends, never send a CD-R. The government will open your mail and check for political/ideological content.

yes, this is what you are told. They're also searching for things like child pornography. But, I don't know how thorough this is. I ordered a laptop and had it shipped to VN and was told that it would have to be inspected. It never was. It was never even turned on. And, unless they're really good with repackaging thing (and I doubt they are), it was never even opened. I only had to grease some palms to get it through w/out having to pay taxes on it, but that's a whole 'nuther story.

And about every Viet would love to move to America, if he/she could.

Nope. That is not the case. Not one of the many friends I made over there wants to come to America. One girl did arrange a marriage so she could come over and work for a few years but she is going back as soon as she can.

When I was there, my wife and I asked this question a lot, just to see how they felt. She taught English and was exposed to, what I would think would be the most prone group to want to go, students in their 20's. Most of them love American products but would not want to live here.

A few do, yes. And most of the people who do want to move here view America as a big utopia where you can do whatever you want and make as much money as you want. I'm sure if you talk to somebody in the small towns, they'll wish they could. But that is the same in any country.

No, I'm not American.

I am.

I hope you're not Viet Kieu. Before I went to VN, a lot of Viet Kieu (and older Americans who lived thru the war) tried to tell me how bad it was and how it was going to be one of the hardest years of my life. How wrong they were. It turned out to be the best.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by glMatrixMode · 2005-06-21 03:39 · Score: 1

I hope you're not Viet Kieu

I'm not, my girlfriend's family is.

--
War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by Wyatt+Earp · 2005-06-21 04:35 · Score: 1

OK, I'll bite. I moved from Oregon to Flordia, to Colorado to Oregon with a suspended licence, I didn't know it was suspended, and I didn't get tossed in the slammer.

A business licence and IRS paperwork aren't the same as "explicitly allowed by the state." Anyone can get a business licence in the States, you pay for it, you get registered, you are a business.

For Oregon, where I live.

"The State of Oregon does not have a general business license. However, many occupations and business activities require special licenses, permits, or certifications from state agencies or boards. To help businesses comply with state regulations, Oregon has established the Business Referral Center as a first-stop information source. To determine if your particular business activity is licensed or regulated by the state, the "Business Wizard" online provides a list of referrals for registering a new business and possible license, permit and certification requirements. "

"The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) provides two free CD ROMs 'A Virtual Small Business Workshop" (Publication 3700) and "The Small Business Resource Guide" (Publication 3207) that contain extensive information for new businesses. These can be obtained by calling the Forms Distribution Center at 1-800-829-3676"

http://www.filinginoregon.com/obg/18.htm
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by LHX · 2005-06-21 05:11 · Score: 1

I hope you're not Viet Kieu.

You forgot that Viet Kieu have also gone back there, many times more than you have. When they went to Vietnam, they stayed and talked to their relatives and friends who have lived under the regime, unlike your experience where the people you came into contact with probably have vested interested in presenting the best face for the government. As a factoid, you can be sure that you need the government's permission to move, or you need to register with the local police if you have visitors who will stay for a few days or more.

Bottom line is that you're a foreigner there. You can try but nobody is going to be honest with you, for or against the government. Just by your using the war 30 years ago to defend their persecuting for criticizing the government, I can see that they've done a job on you. We all know that those commie are good. Remind me of the people who visited North Korea in the 80's and think it's a paradise.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by GypC · 2005-06-21 06:26 · Score: 1

And, God help those who are critical of the state these days.

Really? When did they throw Michael Moore and Al Franken in jail?
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by elrous0 · 2005-06-21 06:50 · Score: 1

A business licence and IRS paperwork aren't the same as "explicitly allowed by the state." Anyone can get a business licence in the States, you pay for it, you get registered, you are a business.
There are also local zoning ordinances, business laws, and any number of other ways the state can persecute, prosecute, and outlaw your business if it's controversial or unpopular.

If you don't believe it, just try setting up a porn shop or strip club in a red state sometime.

Even something as minor as locating your liquor store near some conservative politician's house will give you a great primer in the reality of just how much the state controls us.

-Eric

--
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by elrous0 · 2005-06-21 07:01 · Score: 1

When did they throw Michael Moore and Al Franken in jail?
Al Franken and Michael Moore are protected (for the most part) because they're wealthy, well-known, and in the public eye. No one would ever go after them with simple intimidation tactics (media smear campaigns are the weapon of choice against them).

It's the average citizen who has to worry about losing their job, getting physically attacked, being intimidated by law enforement, or simply being held in detention as long as the local prosecutor feels like it on some bogus charge. That is how the average citizen is kept in check.

-Eric

--
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by GypC · 2005-06-21 07:14 · Score: 1

Oh, I see. So this has happened to who? I'd appreciate some evidence.

You sure are a brave man for posting this seeing as how Bush's jackbooted thugs could kick in your door at any moment for being so radical and sassy.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by D+H+NG · 2005-06-21 07:40 · Score: 1

I returned to Vietnam last year after leaving it 10 years ago as a child with my family. The economic situation seems to have improved. The small village where I was born now have electricity (although there's sporatic blackouts). But the situation there can go nowhere but up. My aunt, who's an elementary school teacher, makes about $500 a year. The country is rife with corruption. If you want to get something done, you have to give the officials some money. Want to get through customs without a problem? $20 bribe for the customs officers. If you don't, they'll make up some bogus charges and keep you for a long time. You want to stay in a certain place for longer than a week? You have to register with the local "People's Committee" ($50 bribe). etc. etc. Until they take care of the corruption problem, I think foreign investors will be discouraged from doing business there.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by Wyatt+Earp · 2005-06-21 07:57 · Score: 1

However, a control isn't the same as "explicitly allowed by the state".

Local zoning isn't a Federal law. In Vietnam the National Government limits business, in the United States things are much more open.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by elrous0 · 2005-06-22 01:06 · Score: 1

Oh, I see. So this has happened to who?
Every open atheist in the country, every black person born in the South before 1960, anyone foolish enough to put a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker on their car in states like Texas and South Carolina, anyone daring to hold up a protest sign outside of George Bush's "designated protest area."

Should I go on, or was that just a rhetorical question?

-Eric

--
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by elrous0 · 2005-06-22 01:15 · Score: 1

in the United States things are much more open
That's what we tell ourselves. Of course, we also call it "propoganda" when someone else says it about their country, "education" when we say it about the U.S.

I would be concerned. But luckily, I'm a loyal patriot--not like one of those blind nationalists they have in other countries.

-Eric

--
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:people look happy in Vietnam by GypC · 2005-06-22 01:43 · Score: 1

Uhhh... I thought we were talking about the government here. So you're just generally unhappy with the way American citizens treat those they disagree with? What does that have to do with the government?

Not far from Vietnam there are Muslims who chop the heads off Buddhists for the crime of, well, being Buddhist. There are places all over the world where ethnic groups murder each other daily and political opponents do the same. The United States is actually quite civilized, with the occasional exception, and the exceptions are usually arrested and prosecuted.

You still have provided me no links to facts. I can provide links to people being harrassed for having Bush bumper stickers or being openly conservative in a University classroom if you like...

Re:This being America.... by smittyoneeach · 2005-06-21 00:13 · Score: 1

Korea Doctorow doesn't know anything about IT.

--
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear

it's just business, like Linux or Google by dioscaido · 2005-06-21 00:18 · Score: 1

It would be nice. But lets be realistic, MS isn't the only group out to expand market share. The Linux community was excited to lend a hand to China's Linux distribution. Similarly, google censors searches in the same country. For corporations, economics will almost always win out over politics.

Re:it's just business, like Linux or Google by FidelCatsro · 2005-06-21 00:48 · Score: 1

Also there is a strong chance the only reason socialist republic of Vietnam is going strongly with MS is because China is going with Linux. A lot of bad blood over the years between the two (most recently the sino-soviet conflicts in the late 70s and the border skirmishes through the region , though relations are better now ).
I do imagine they wouldn't want there systems on anything like china has.

--
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini by vigilology · 2005-06-21 00:21 · Score: 1

Then people would be complaining that all their kids were being taught was Microsoft stuff.

Re: a sense of irony by rsynnott · 2005-06-21 00:24 · Score: 2

Really? Can you be legally imprisoned indefinitely, tortured and executed in secret and without trial? Do they have an abusive prison camp whose policy is that "mock execution is not encouraged"?

--
Me (Blog)

Full Cardboard Box by AHuxley · 2005-06-21 00:26 · Score: 1, Funny

Hey, Vietnam, M$ so stable. M$ so safe. Vietnam looks M$ over. M$ so cheap. M$ profit you too much. Hey, what you say? Number one OS. M$ love Vietnam too much." "How much!" Vietnam asks. "Fifteen dolla." "For all of us?" "No, each seat fifteen dolla."

--
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"

human rights? by Groote+Ka · 2005-06-21 00:27 · Score: 1

Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record.

I thought that that issue was solved at the moment the US army left Vietnam some decades ago. Or are they going to discuss all the tons of agent orange that were left as a goodbye present?

Ok, that was too easy

But I hate to see this happening. I would have preferred Vietnam to follow the software policy of its big brother China. Would be better for them and the rest of the world.

And we have seen multiple times that Bill Gates doesn't give sh@t about human rights by introducing censorship modules in chat and blog software for China. Disgusting.

Re:human rights? by Infonaut · 2005-06-21 01:21 · Score: 1

OK, that was too easy
Yep, it was. We all know that the US was guilty of all kinds of human rights violations 35+ years ago, but the protests in Seattle have to do with what's going on now in Vietnam

--
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ

Hand-in-hand by pandrijeczko · 2005-06-21 00:33 · Score: 1

Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record.

Goes nicely with Microsoft's Digital Rights Management record then...

--
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini by suezz · 2005-06-21 00:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

because Vietnam will become the next outsourcing center - now that India is used up and they are demanding more salaries because they are experienced they have to go somewhere else to pay minimum wage for tech support.

So now America is outsourced to India which will be outsourced to Vietnam.

And now this by EiZei · 2005-06-21 00:43 · Score: 1

Microsoft first censors words like freedom in their chinese blog system in order to appease the authorities and now this. But god forbid if average joe would want to visit Cuba.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by IWantMoreSpamPlease · 2005-06-21 00:45 · Score: 1

Shall we point out some of the lovely things the Viet gov't did to its *own* people?

Stones, glass houses, sin, etc.

--
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.

Yo go, Bill by cousinoliver · 2005-06-21 00:45 · Score: 1

You take 'Nam, and OSS will take China.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by PaxTech · 2005-06-21 00:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

Shall we point out some of the lovely things the Viet gov't did to its *own* people?

No, no, you see, when the US oppresses people (by turning the AC down and playing loud rap music) it's the US government's fault, and when governments opposed to the US oppress people (by killing and maiming them) it's also the US government's fault.

Logically this makes sense, but only if you belong to what is known as the "reality based community". Apparently if there was no United States, the world would be a playground of love and understanding and puppy dogs.

--
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.

Re:Obligatory Bush quote by datadriven · 2005-06-21 00:58 · Score: 1

Bush is just following in the footsteps of his hero

--
GETPKG - Package Management for Slackware

Re:Oh, great. by deadweight · 2005-06-21 01:06 · Score: 1, Insightful

They are too stupid to realize that the very fact they can post like that and stay out of some camp is WAY more freedom than anyone in China or Vietnam currently enjoys.

Workaround: xtSP violator model by Donny+Smith · 2005-06-21 01:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

>Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code

Lets remind ourselves that $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR can use the loophole in (L)GPL that allows xSPs running GPL apps without abiding by the license (as they do not re-distribute the code).

Here are some workarounds for opressive governments worldwide:

a) have xSPs (Microsoft, Google, Yahoo et al) do the dirty work fo' ya (Microsoft a bit less likely to use GPL software for that, but still).
Motto: We're snitches so you don't have to be.
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles /2005/06/20/tech_firms_help_tyrants_keep_their_gri p/

b) outsource IT operations to multinationals who will run GPL-ed code in any way necessary (including assisting in human rights violations) as long as it helps them make money.
I can wholeheartedly recommend IBM as they have related experience and references stretching as far back as World War II.

Microsoft: Defender of American Values by rscrawford · 2005-06-21 01:10 · Score: 2, Funny

I wonder what words they'll ban in Vietnam? Will they ban "freedom" and "democracy" like they did in China? Or will they add "human rights" to that list as well?

--
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.

Re:Microsoft: Defender of American Values by themisiek · 2005-06-21 02:24 · Score: 1

I was born in communist state and lived there for a while, and know a lot of its history.
Now to the point.
It does not matter what they will add to the filter there will ALWAYS be words and expressions that are not added yet. Just research some of the world's literature and films which come from communist states. You might not understand them, you might think they are weird, even awkward, but the targeted audience will get them faster than you might imagine.

--
The Misiek

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by tomstdenis · 2005-06-21 01:10 · Score: 1

As a typical idiot you missed the point.

The point was that Americans are often too quick to judge when you yourselves don't have the best record to stand on.

So instead of going around like your shit don't stink think twice about what you're doing. I mean for instance, look at the Vietnam war. It killed millions of Vietnam civillians and for what? The "evil communists" still won anyways. If you just left them be they'd probably be much better off.

But think of it this way, when America was being settled you had the British come and try to force their government on you. You fought back and now you're all proud that you whooped some ass.

All the while [I might add] you were slave owning, indian murdering savages.

Now you look at Vietnam and you see the "evil communists" and their crimes. Then you think "oh we're justified in trying to send our troops out there to force our way of life and government on them."

So in what way are you not the Britains trying to quash the rebellion?

Tom

--
Someday, I'll have a real sig.

Sad by batje · 2005-06-21 01:21 · Score: 1

Sad to hear that by giving the leader of a poor country a first class treatment in your 'house of the future (but not in your country for the next century)', you can have that leader spend his citizens tax money on an OS which has a free equivalent.

If that would happen in Vietnam, you would call it bribery, and have a demonstration about it.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by Pig+Hogger · 2005-06-21 01:22 · Score: 1

The naked girl running was just napalmed by the US air force

Actually no. She was napalmed by the south-vietnamese air-force.

What's the Problem Here? by geoffrobinson · 2005-06-21 01:23 · Score: 1

Everyone knows America was the bad guys in the Vietnam War. So the Commies are responsible for the Killing Fields and MS wants to help them.

Seriously, after aging hippies apologize for wrecking SE Asia, I'll get upset at Microsoft.

--
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.

Re:What's the Problem Here? by geoffrobinson · 2005-06-21 03:34 · Score: 1

There is a direct causal relationship between the communists taking over in Vietnam and the communists taking over and establishing the killing fields in Cambodia. Not to mention all the people of Vietnam who had to go to camp, were killed, repressed, etc.

--
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Re:What's the Problem Here? by wibblylemoende · 2005-06-22 13:40 · Score: 1

So, what is this direct causal relationship?

Here are the facts:
1. The Vietnam War (known quite correctly as the American War by the Vietnamese) was not just about Viet Nam. The US conducted major campaigns within t he borders of both Laos and Cambodia to disrupt supply chains and in an attempt to prevent the impact of communism spreading.
2. The 'Killing Felds' were in Cambodia.
3. The Khmer Rouge was in control of Cambodia after the toppling of the Lon Nol regime (supported by the US). This is related to the US withdrawal, but is unrelated to Viet Nam.
4. IMPORTANT: The Khmer Rouge were supported by the Chinese (who were opposed to the Vietnamese Communists). The Vietnamese were supported by the Russians. By the end of the Viet Nam war, Russia and China were already at loggerheads. China had made it clear to Viet Nam that there would be consequences for any interference in Cambodia.
5. The estimated dates for the use of the 'Killing Fields' were between 1975 and 1979. This corresponds with the end of the American War, but was not a consequence of the Vietnamese Communists taking control of the whole of Viet Nam.
6. The Vietnamese did not enter Cambodia until at least 3 years later. When they did, the Chinese invaded northern Viet Nam and razed whole towns. The border between Viet Nam and China is still disputed (in fact one of the recent political detainees in Viet Nam is in jail for suggesting the Vietnamese government has given away too much in the negotiations).
7. MOST IMPORTANTLY: The Vietnamese invaded Cambodia for two main reasons: 1) To prevent the sporadic cross-border attacks on Viet Nam (the Cambodian border is only 80km from the centre of Sai Gon/HCMC), and 2) To bring down a regime that was creating untold suffering inside Cambodia.

It is true that the Cambodian government is now extremely pro-Viet Nam ... Hun Sen (the current prime minister) was a defector to the Vietnamese side during their takeover of the country.

Do not confuse the 1978 Vietnamese intervention in the madness of the Khmer Rouge as an attempt to spread Communism. Although it had the effect of bringing in a sympathetic government in Phnom Penh, the Vietnamese were mostly interested in stopping the attacks on Viet Nam.

You have been misled, dear fellow. Don't swallow all the propaganda.

Read a bit more of the history before you get involved in this one. The history is a little more complicated than you've been led to believe.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by tomstdenis · 2005-06-21 01:35 · Score: 1

How is it ironic? I've been to the US and France. I've been to the east coast and the west coast. That's more than I can say for the average "god save america" American.

So really, in what way is my post ironic? Do you even know what the word means?

Tom

--
Someday, I'll have a real sig.

Bill is king by hey · 2005-06-21 01:36 · Score: 1

So he only takes to other heads of state now.
What an ass.
How is going to hear what's really going on from these guys.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by Tenebrous · 2005-06-21 01:39 · Score: 2, Informative

"I should note the picture of the Vietnamese man summarily executing a Vietnamese prisoner is an RVN (US puppet government) official shooting an suspected NLF prisoner, polls show young Americans often think it's the reverse."

If they think so, it's because that's what they've been told by school teachers who want to rewrite history.

"the Ohio National Guard shot four students dead"

The Ohio National Guard fired into the air, over the heads of the protesters, who were throwing rocks and bottles at the RETREATING National Guard. Admittedly shooting into the air was a stupid thing to do, because all that lead has to land somewhere.

Your post suggests that the NG killed four protesters. They didn't. The truth is bad enough, so why lie about it?

And while I'm at it, don't even bring up the so-called atrocities committed by the US against the VC. The things the US did, including My Lai, were nothing compared to what the VC did to their own people and to any US soldiers captured by the VC. The VC were and are creative in a way the Spanish Inquisition would have envied.

language by hey · 2005-06-21 01:41 · Score: 1

Vietnam had to wait for Microsoft to release a local-lauguage version (of Windows?). If they used open source they could make it themselves.

Re:language by kevmille · 2005-06-21 19:18 · Score: 1

There is a Vietnamese language version of OpenOffice.org but it still will not be as popular as pirated versions of MS Office. No one wants to switch to Linux. A couple years ago, the Vietnamese government initiated a program to promote usuage of open source software but it has panned out to nothing. A friend and I formed SaigonLUG, there is a new HanoiLUG entity as well, but there is relatively little interest in open source software. On a more positive note, there is a very active VietLUG group outside of Vietnam that will play in active role in promoting Linux and OSS to Vietnam with the local language.

Sad Move by KrisCowboy · 2005-06-21 01:42 · Score: 1

It's not really desirable for a developing country like Vietnam to tie-up it's IT development with Microsoft. Get hooked to Windows and set back your country's progress by a decade? No thanks. Plus, any Windows products with Vietnamese language support yet?

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by br00tus · 2005-06-21 01:45 · Score: 1

John Plummer was a captain in the US armed forces who was in Vietnam, and he says he took an active part in the incident. I know some people dispute the details, but the fact remains that a former US captain claims that the US air force WAS involved.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by br00tus · 2005-06-21 01:48 · Score: 1

John Plummer was a captain in the US armed forces who was in Vietnam, and he says he took an active part in the incident. I know some people dispute the details, but the fact remains that a former US captain claims that the US air force WAS involved.

Re:Oh, great. by deadweight · 2005-06-21 01:48 · Score: 1

I spend a lot of time in Western Europe. Please either go there and see for yourself or quit smoking crack. What can someone in Germany do today that I can't? I get all pissed off at the Homeland Insecurity rules for flying in the DC area because it REMINDS ME OF THE BULLSHIT IN EUROPE. I am part of a small minority in the USA (about 500,000 of us) that are pilots and contend with all kinnds of stupid crap since 9-11, but for the average person not much has changed. No government agent is going to track me down for making fun of DHS. Before you get all excited, please don't post about socialist medical systems. Paying huge taxes for a no choice medical system may or may not be a good idea, but freedom it is not.

Protesters by Whatchamacallit · 2005-06-21 01:51 · Score: 2, Informative

As far as I could tell from the limited media coverage and digging through blogs most of the protesters were Vietnamese Americans who either fled the Communist Regime themselves or whose parents did. The rest are Vietnam Vet's.

I've personally spoken with one such refugee who escaped to the Philippines and eventually made it to the US. After the US pulled out, he went home and destroyed all of his documentation proving he worked on the US Base as an aircraft mechanic. He watched his neighbors literally disappear overnight! His house was searched and his family threatened. He moved his wife and kids to his mother in-laws and then he fled the country. It took him many years to save up enough money to have his family smuggled out of the country.

Vietnam is guilty of many Human Rights violations, many more of the Vietnamese died when the US pulled out then were killed in the entire war! The country denied having any American POW's but we all know they did.

I think it's despicable that we would open trade agreements with the country. They failed to build their own economy due to the oppressive nature of Communism. So why help bail them out with trade deals? The same with China... I think it's a mistake, China has shown little results from all the investments we've made. They are actively trying to crack down on the formerly free people in Hong Kong and not to mention Taiwan. Again, why do we give money to Communists?!?! We know their economy will eventually collapse just as it did in Russia.

Re:Protesters by orzetto · 2005-06-21 03:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

They failed to build their own economy due to the oppressive nature of Communism.

Aside from the fact that freedom has nothing to do with economic development (Stalin, Hitler and Pinochet had all quite good economic results), you have maybe not noticed that the Vietnamese economy is growing faster than the US economy, and not by a small margin (7.7% against 4.4%).
The fact they are still underdeveloped might have some connection with the fact their country was pretty much razed to the ground some years ago.

--
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y

Re:Obligatory Bush quote by magarity · 2005-06-21 01:56 · Score: 1

I've never heard either presidents Bush claim there are communists working at the State department.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by br00tus · 2005-06-21 02:00 · Score: 1

The Ohio National Guard shot bullets out of their guns, they hit a number of students, four of whom died, facts which you do not dispute. To me that makes "the Ohio National Guard shot four students dead" a reality, not a "lie".

As far as treatment of prisoners, we can turn on US corporate television and hear about how John McCain was treated and the Hanoi Hilton and whatnot. You never hear about how NLF prisoners were treated on Con Sen Island though, which was as bad or worse.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by PaxTech · 2005-06-21 02:03 · Score: 1

You're absolutely hilarious. You spew these blatant generalizations about Americans and say we're "close minded".

Just for your information, I'm in my thirties and I've traveled all over the world. Hope you can wrap your brain around that, not that I'm saying you're "close minded". I've seen the world, and if you think the US is oppressive compared to most of the world I think *you're* the parochial one.

--
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.

Vietnam Courts Microsoft? by batlock666 · 2005-06-21 02:06 · Score: 2, Funny

Fuckie fuckie five dollars?

Meanwhile up the Da Nang River by nihilistcanada · 2005-06-21 02:24 · Score: 2, Funny

How many Windows XP Pirates had I already turned in? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an businessman. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with software piracy in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?

Once they're running windows... by greendot · 2005-06-21 02:25 · Score: 1

Once everybody over there is running Windows...

Funny thing is, everybody over there already is running windows.

Re:Forget by br00tus · 2005-06-21 02:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

Some of the nuclear missiles in Cuba at the time were armed and operational, which was not known in the US at the time. If Kennedy had had the "guts" to invade Cuba, the invading force would have probably been greeted with a few tactical nuclear missiles, which no one doubts would have resulted in a full-scale nuclear war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

As far as LBJ's "half-assed effort", LBJ never vetoed a military target, ever. LeMay wanted to bomb dikes so as to starve to death millions of civilians (like he did in Korea) and also carpet bomb Hanoi and kill the civilian population there (like he did to Pyongyang, and ever major city in North Korea, and every major city in Japan in the war before that). So if you mean an intentional massacre of civilians on the scale that the US did in Korea or Japan, yes, LBJ vetoed that because the powers-that-be in the US felt it would be politically harmful to US interests outside of Vietnam.

Great! by tbcpp · 2005-06-21 02:41 · Score: 1

I don't know about all of you, but I welcome this news! Now whenever we decide to go back into 'nam and to it right, we have any easy way to take down their complete IT systems!

US Computer Hacker: Sir, what virus would you like me to use today for our attack.

General: I don't care, pick a random one from the 100,000 available choices...

--
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.

ComCap by Doc+Ruby · 2005-06-21 02:45 · Score: 1

Monopolies and Communism - the 21st Century doesn't have to make sense, when it makes dollars. Or dongs.

--

--
make install -not war

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini by Austerity+Empowers · 2005-06-21 02:52 · Score: 1

Cuz your kids school teachers cost about 1000x more.

One MS staff programmer will teach 30 vietnamese natives, who will teach the masses. All for the price of a big mac.

Manichean sense of irony by guet · 2005-06-21 03:20 · Score: 1

Not a flame here. I want to know. Show us solid examples of this happening on an every day basis and not of foreign nationals without clearance to be here, people who violated the terms of their visas, etc. Show where a natural born American citizen who has not been engaged in terrorism or linked to it has been sent to Guantanamo.

Pure FUD. If it weren't, you would not have been allowed to make your post and have been arrested and sent off to some mythical gulag by now.

I don't live in your country : )

I haven't mentioned gulags or anything of the sort, work camps don't really have a lot to do with prisons. Abuse of rights does not have to happen every day to be serious, and you don't have to be thrown in prison when protesting for rights to be eroded.

As to your fixation with whether this happens to US Citizens or not, measures of repression always start with an easily stigmatised and easily identified group (just now muslims and Arabs), and fan out from there. Links to terrorism now seem to include having the same name, or being religious (the wrong religion of course). You should not be asking 'Will I ever be affected by this?' but asking 'Is this right?'.

I'm not saying this is happening all the time, not at all, but it is now *legal* for your government to lock up anyone without trial on suspicion. I don't think that's a very good idea, and it certainly isn't a 'free country' anymore, not compared to many others.

I thought Linux was communist... by robertjw · 2005-06-21 03:34 · Score: 1

Amazing, I thought Linux was the communist Operating System that was supposed to undermine capitalism. Now Microsoft is the one making deals with Communist countries.

If Linux is so anti-capitalist why isn't Vietnam looking for Linux solutions?

--
Find coupons in Greeley

Vietnam courts Microsoft by ArmorFiend · 2005-06-21 03:54 · Score: 1

Today:
Vietnam courts Microsoft
Microsoft courts Vietnam

1990s:
Microsoft "Vietnam"s Courts.

What good is 50k MSCE's? by SuperKendall · 2005-06-21 04:04 · Score: 1, Troll

Who cares if VIetnam has 50k more MSCE's - frankly if I were them I would think that an act of provocation and tell us to cut it out.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Perhaps they'll start a 'Software Reform Campaign" by mpaque · 2005-06-21 04:06 · Score: 1

This is the same fun-loving government that conducted the 'Land Reform Campaign', in which thousands were executed for the crime of owning land, and tens of thousands of family members died in forced labor 'reeducation' camps.

(Estimates of direct executions range from 5,000 to 50,000, and deaths in labor camps from 50,000 to 500,000. Numbers at the high end of the range are suspect, as they were reported in what appear to be propaganda pieces.)

The government there still operates forced labor police "re-education camps," which provide cheap labor as subcontractors for commercial ventures.

Remember that before you try on a pair of Nikes or Reeboks.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by tomstdenis · 2005-06-21 04:08 · Score: 1

Again you missed the fucking point.

It isn't that the USA is the worst. It's that your shit stinks just like the rest of us. This holier than thou attitude is exactly my point.

Example: What we call murder you call "collateral damage". What we call violating the geneva convention you call "Operation Iraqi Liberation", etc, etc, etc...

To say the USA does nothing good is stupid. They do plenty of good [and often more than Canada for instance].

The point, if you care to follow, is that you do shit that you ought to be ashame of. Window dressing it up as "the cost of war on terror" is just asinine.

Tom

--
Someday, I'll have a real sig.

sorry about this.... by Atilla · 2005-06-21 04:24 · Score: 1

we give you software that sucky-sucky, 5 dollah!

--
--- sig moved for great justice.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by IWantMoreSpamPlease · 2005-06-21 04:30 · Score: 1

>>If you just left them be they'd probably be much better off.

You're kidding right? The name Pol Pot ring a fucking bell to you?

And before you retort, yes, he was killer of Cambodia, but those in charge of Vietnam were no less clean.

--
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by Wyatt+Earp · 2005-06-21 04:43 · Score: 1

No photos of the piles of dead bodies the Communists had murdered at Hue City during the '68 Tet?

Cambodian foreign policy during the 1950s and 1960s was one of neutrality. By the mid-1960s, parts of Cambodia's eastern provinces were serving as bases for North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong (NVA/VC) forces operating against South Vietnam, and the port of Sihanoukville was being used to supply them. As NVA/VC activity grew, the United States and South Vietnam became concerned, and in 1969, the United States began a fourteen month long series of bombing raids targeted at NVA/VC elements, contributing to destabilization. Prince Sinanouk tacitly supported the bombing. The United States claims that the bombing campaign took place no further than ten, and later twenty miles inside the Cambodian border.

In March 1970, while Prince Sihanouk was absent in Bejing and Moscow, Gen. Lon Nol deposed Prince Sihanouk and assumed power. Son Ngoc Thanh announced his support for the new government. On October 9, the Cambodian monarchy was abolished, and the country was renamed the Khmer Republic.

Hanoi rejected the new republic's request for the withdrawal of NVA troops. 2,000-4,000 Cambodians who had gone to North Vietnam in 1954 reentered Cambodia, backed by North Vietnamese soldiers. In response, the United States moved to provide material assistance to the new government's armed forces, which were engaged against both the CPK insurgents and NVA forces.

In April 1970, US President Nixon announced to the American public that US and South Vietnamese ground forces had entered Cambodia in a campaign aimed at destroying NVA base areas in Cambodia. The US had already been bombing Cambodia for well over a year by that point. Demonstrations took place across college campuses in the US, culminating in the death of four students at Kent State, lending support in the US withdrawal from Vietnam.

Re:Oh, great. by dual_boot_brain · 2005-06-21 05:12 · Score: 1

Except of course there is no freedom to be a Nazi; no freedom to deny the holocaust. So there is no true freedom of expression or association. Freedom of expression and association can not be applied solely to things you like or agree with. In fact, your most strident support of freedom must be for the things you most despise.

Regardless, in 20 years when europe is under Sharia law, your lack of freedom will become more apparent.

The problem is that some people equate smoking pot and copying CDs with freedom. They are not freedoms. Freedoms are not about what you can do, they are about what the government cannot do. They are checks on the inherent nature of governments to become less open, less tolerant, and more susceptible to outside influences which run counter to the general good of the citizens.

So which freedoms do I lack?

--
There is no reset button in life; however, there are bonus levels.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by PaxTech · 2005-06-21 05:24 · Score: 1

All you've done in this thread is spout your stereotypes about "God save americans" and call me names like "idiot".

Sorry if it doesn't exactly endear me to paying the slightest bit of attention to whatever kind of argument you're lamely attempting to make.

I learned long ago not to bother arguing on /. with Canadians about politics. The typical resident of the People's Republic of Canada is way too "close minded" to get through to.

And yes, the ironic content in this post is entirely intentional.

--
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.

Re:Oh, great. by rsynnott · 2005-06-21 05:28 · Score: 1

Actually, in my country (Ireland), and also in the UK and a number of other European countries, we have freedom to deny the holocaust and such as much as we like. I've never heard anyone do it, tho ;) In practice, the law in Germany and France is outdated, and probably causes more trouble than it prevents.

The UN says that Ireland has the free-est speech in the world; we don't ban much, apart from the usual child porn and incitement to hatred.

Sorry, Europe under Sharia law? Where'd that come from? I can imagine the US falling under crazy fundamentalist christian law, but you realise Europe has been getting more and more secular for decades (to the extent that some right-wing Americans deride it as atheist; not true; the UK is the only country with very high levels of atheism for the moment, sadly). And you realise that many middle eastern countries aren't under Sharia law, right?

In Europe, we have the freedom to criticise anything our governments do to an unlimited extent, and to be as unpatriotic as we want to, and to advocate revolution if we want to. The Americans are getting increasingly nervous about doing those things, tho for the moment that seems to be social pressure more than government pressure.

And you can be arrested, imprisoned indefinitely without trial, tortured (by European, UN and Israeli definitions of the word) and executed, all in secret. You can be searched without warrant, and soon it may be illegal for you to TELL anyone you've been searched. All under the patriot act. None of these things can happen to me (unless I pay the Free World a visit). That's freedom for you.

Now, what freedoms do _I_ lack?

--
Me (Blog)

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by PaxTech · 2005-06-21 05:38 · Score: 1

The irony was in the way that you leapt to assuming I'm a "typical idiot" and then complained that Americans were "quick to judge" in the next breath. If that doesn't meet your Canadian dictionary definition of irony, please excuse me, I'm an "idiot" American so I used the word in a colloquial sense. I thought the meaning would be clear to the educated reasoned citizen of the world that I assumed you were. Sorry for being so "quick to judge" that you'd understand without a pedantic explanation suitable for a small child.

Do you ever actually convince anyone to come around to your point of view by calling them names and implying that they don't know the meanings of the words they use? Because, honestly, at least in this thread, you really come off as a jackass. I'm not saying that to engage in a competition of insults, I'm just trying to raise the level of discourse a little.

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All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.

Comparison by 4of12 · 2005-06-21 06:46 · Score: 1

GDP of Vietnam = US$227.2 billion.

Market capitalization MSFT = US$243.5 billion

Granted, MSFT's income is only about US$36 billion, but they don't have to maintain a country.

And while Vietnam can muster a fairly impressive sized army, MSFT has Steve Ballmer.

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"Provided by the management for your protection."

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by br00tus · 2005-06-21 07:25 · Score: 1

More serious was the bombing of Cambodia beginning in February 1973 (a month after the Paris Peace Accords). The US Air Force was not flying any more bombing missions over Vietnam, so it began to lay waste to Cambodia over the next few months, and not just the eastern provinces.

I have never never seen... by Kaenneth · 2005-06-21 07:39 · Score: 1

Anyone explain exactly how not trading with a nation is supposed to improve the lives of it's citizens.

I attribute it to selfishness. People want the benifits without the costs. Cheap products without losing high paying jobs. Well, guess what? In order to have a high paying job, you have to produce something that people will pay a high price for, and if you arn't willing to pay high prices, why would you expect anyone else to?

I figure, for example, once the Indian phone support folks become skilled enough, and their local economy starts to catch up to ours, they will start demanding more pay; or at least be busy enough providing support to other Indians that they'd rather work for a local company than for some U.S. company.

By allowing them to support U.S. consumers, they are being indoctrinated to our culture in a way, learning English, American phone ettiquite, dealing with American companies. I would bet that they dislike dealing with Americans more than we dislike talking to them when we have a problem.

In the U.S. you can have a home, a car, a cell phone, a TV, a PlayStation, etc. and still be considered very poor. Grocery stores discard tons upon tons of slightly blemished food, Charities only accept brand new in the package toys quality clothing and no computers under 500mhz. Gasoline is half the price it is in Europe, and a 7-11 is usually a short stroll away. The excess we have here is almost disturbing.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"; This does not refer just to Americans. Denying the things we hold dear to the peoples of other lands, just because they arn't living on this particular landmass is rediculous. If they, or their government on their behalf, choose not to partake that's fine, but if we show them the best bits of democracy, instead of encouraging un-elected leaders to bad-mouth democratic nations, perhaps in this day and age, non-violent revolution is possible.

Vietnamese Americans by D+H+NG · 2005-06-21 07:46 · Score: 1

It should be noted that the 3 million overseas Vietnamese and in particular the 1.2 million Vietnamese Americans are very anti-communist and frequently protest against the Vietnamese government where ever they go.

Re:Vietnamese Americans by kevmille · 2005-06-21 19:10 · Score: 1

And when no one is looking, they are making business deals with the very same SAME Vietnamese government they are protesting against...

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by Wyatt+Earp · 2005-06-21 08:00 · Score: 2, Informative

Thats because Cambodia wasn't a signatory to the Paris Peace Accords.

The Arclight missions over Cambodia were halted in August 15, 1973 by the United States Congress.

From the Khmer Rouge perspective, however, the severity of the bombings was matched by the treachery of the North Vietnamese. The Cambodian communists had refused to take part in the Paris peace talks. So that when North Vietnam and the United States signed the Paris Peace Accords on January 27, 1973, bombing missions over Vietnam and Laos were terminated. The fighter bombers and other aircraft thus released were diverted to strike Khmer Rouge positions in Cambodia.

Re: a sense of irony by rsynnott · 2005-06-21 12:33 · Score: 1

Really? Ah, Blair won't be too keen on the new EU constitution, then; it prohibits such things. No wonder he was keen to have a referendum...

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Me (Blog)

Re:PM Phan Van Khai meet Bill Gate because of his by XaN-ASMoDi · 2005-06-21 21:53 · Score: 1

apart from this guy does anybody actually know anyone in OR from Viet Nam or are you all just arm chair politicians? http://www.thanhniennews.com/

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Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.

VietNam and the Cambodia invasion by HuguesT · 2005-06-22 03:30 · Score: 1

One thing that can be said, in spite of everything, for Viet-Nam is that they invaded Cambodia in 1979, at the height of the Pol-Pot terror reign, while the West was doing nothing to stem the killings that were taking place under that regime.

That pretty much ended the Khmer Rouge madness, which had already killed 1.7 million in a country of only 7 millions! Eventually the Vietnamese army left after about 10 years of occupation and civil war, and elections were held in 1993 in a free Cambodia.

I'm not sure Vietnam's actions were righteous, but they ended up doing the right thing. In a similar vein we'll see what the US invasion of Iraq will lead to.

Re:Happy by batje · 2005-06-22 03:34 · Score: 1

but there is good news too!
http://news.com.com/Korea+brings+homegrown+open+so urce+to+schools/2100-7344_3-5755892.html

The South Korean government is rolling out a homegrown open-source platform to 10,000 schools in the country.

"The project, called the New Education Information System, is built on a Korean-developed version of Linux that already services 190 schools in the heart of capital city Seoul....

Yeesh by lorcha · 2005-06-22 05:02 · Score: 1

As an owner of 3 businesses, I must say that you have vastly overstated the requirements to open a business.

You can operate a business as a Sole Proprietorship free of charge. The IRS paperwork in that case is a simple form where you list your income, subtract your expenses, and add that result as ordinary income on your tax return. If you need an EIN, it's a simple phone call to the IRS. The US economy has historically been so robust because it is so easy to do business here.

Are there certain businesses that require a specific license? Yes, of course there are. But the requirements are publicly available. For instance, if you want a license to run a daycare facility, there are certain requirements that you must meet in order to obtain a license. It depends on your locality, but it usually has to do with numbers of kids you can have in your size of a facility, staff-to-kid ratios, etc. You do NOT have to bribe your way into getting a license, in other words.

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"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent

Huh? by lorcha · 2005-06-22 05:05 · Score: 1

I'm pretty sure the hippies were against razing SE Asia. You know, "Make Love Not War" and all that. Hippiedom was a direct protest to the war. Hippies should be given credit for working to end it.

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"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam by circusboy · 2005-06-22 05:35 · Score: 1

how this got modded troll is beyond me...

I've travelled a big chunk of North America and Europe, which I suppose doesn't really give me that much basis for comparison, (haven't been to South America, Asia or Africa yet, (beyond a couple of weeks in Egypt.)) But where I have gone, this is very true. In fairness, it is frequently true of people everywhere, but the difference I have seen is largely that people from the US are surprised if others *have* something, where others are surprised that people from the US *haven't*

I would not, however, say that it is as limited as tom makes out though. I was born and raised in Rhode Island, and one time travelling through the midwest I was asked if I had ever seen a farm before. People who don't travel, in general*, have little idea of what goes on in other places. [note: other *places* not other *countries*, (or for that matter, states, counties, nations, continents etc.)] I've been in the far reaches of new england for the last 10 months, and people on one side of the state have little conception of what goes on on the other side of the state, and this is new england for crying out loud, so that's not very far.) All over, there are people who have never been more than a few miles from home, and it is a definite minority of those who have a balanced world view. Especially if you get that world view from the current US media...

I was very lucky in my childhood to have been taken overseas for a couple of years. Of course there are differences, (you'd be amazed at what you get for pizza in Italy if all you know is domino's.) and you see them because they stick out to you, you may not notice that the pharmacy has everything you are used to seeing.

Montreal is not even 100 miles from where I'm sitting, and it is a very different world in a lot of ways, but if you go there, you are not immediately struck by huge differences, but lots of little ones. On example 10 years ago, when I lived there, I was shocked (pleasantly) to see the uncut version of "the Unbearable Lightness of Being" on TV, while sitting at a bar. That was when It hit me that I was not subject to FCC rules. I was also surprised, (less pleasantly) to find out that right on red is illegal.

(Perhaps Toronto or Vancouver might be a better example because of the language thing.)

There's a PBS commentator, who does travellogues and in one of them he made a point about 'if you *really* can't live without something, bring it with you, but chances are you'll find it where you go, but on the off chance you don't, ask yourself, "how do X million Europeans get along fine without it?"'

When I was travelling with the touring show, we hired local staff in every city, and the number of people who would ask me things like "do you have $thing? up there in Canada?" where $thing could be as stupid as some brand of car, or radio, it got to be pretty inane, but amazingly consistent. even in the canadian cities (when they found out I was from the states,) though see the above caveat for the difference.

Sorry, drifted way of point, but to 'iterate' toms point, experience the damn world, but try not to leave a mess.

*generalizations like this are nasty, I know, but squeaky wheels and all that... If one goes by personal experiences, one can only go by the things that have drawn one's notice, and we 'Americans' certainly excel at that.

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-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)

Re:Perhaps they'll start a 'Software Reform Campai by SteeldrivingJon · 2005-06-22 12:40 · Score: 1

I'm not sure I'd mind if they sent Windows' source code to a Re-education Camp for a few years.

"Remember that before you try on a pair of Nikes or Reeboks."

And the Chinese state-run oil company is trying to buy Unocal.

I think we may be getting to the part where we capitalists sell the rope used to hang us.

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September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA

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