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Rugged Mini-DV Camcorder for the Road?
step asks: "As part of my job, I (and my colleagues) spend weeks at a time on the road, doing science shows for high school students. To review our work, we carry DV camcorders to tape and watch our performances. Unfortunately, all the previous models we've tried haven't lasted more than 12 months on the road (and not from lack of care). When returned for repair we were told that they weren't faulty, just not up to the task.
We don't need a full feature camera, just solid reliable recording and playback. In fact, simple is probably better to accommodate the most users.
What experience has Slashdot had with camcorders? What's a good model that can handle lots of travel?"
http://www.ev1.pair.com/colorTV/myTK41_1.html
You can probably find one for less than $2000 now. Maybe even closer to $1200-1500 used in good condition. Great, great camcorder.
First post. Thank you.
I have been looking for a good DV cam to use for a long time, but I didn't want to use miniDV, I want to use flash ram. Recently Panasonic has come out with a whole line of them that use SD cards, but they're a little pricey, and you can't get much video at DVD quality on one SD card. I don't know about the durability of the hardware, but at least this option would take out all of the mechanics.
You talk better than you fool!
Unfortunately I do not know of very many rugged mini dv cameras. The high quality camera designed for being beaten up are generally Betacam or DVCAM professional cameras for News stations and such. Its unfortunate that no company has come out with a "Toughbook" camera, but nice compromises can be found. Naturally the rule with consumer and prosumer camcorders is the bigger they are the harder they fall and more stuff they break. I personally own a JVC HD1U camcorder that is great, its has a steel handle on top so you can lug it around much easier and safer. I've had problems with cheap consumer Sony Cameras going bad after a jolt or two. My advice, go to Best Buy or whatever flavor of electronics megamart you prefer, and bang on some of the display models for a while. You'll get some funny looks, but that will be the best way to see what cameras are up to the task.
The Property of One's : "The Oneitude is directly proportional to the Colditude of the one." - S.B.
http://www.shentech.com/agdvx100a.html
http://reviews.cnet.com
Pretty Pictures!
might I recommend a professional model? It is much more likely to hold up to the wear & tear + duty cycle you are looking at subjecting it to.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
You didn't say what exactly the problem was with the camera you had. If it was build quality, tape mechanism problems, dirt getting in the case, etc. You might consider checking out the JVC hard-drive based line of camcorders. I see it as the next natural progression in camcorders to get rid of the overly complicated tape loading mechanism. They're pricey but they're VERY cool.. look for the JVC Everio GZMC200.. 4 gig drive, 10x optical zoom, 2 megapixels. I want. :)
You don't mention what breaks... I'll assume the tape mechanism...
How about the JVC Everio? Mate it with a solid state flash card (instead of the microdrive) and you have very few moving parts (just the focus and aperture).
There are a number of solid-state MPEG4 recording camcorders like Sanyo's XACTI which save the video to a CF or SD card.
If your target for these recordings is to be watched on a TV in the classroom, then the quality provided by mpeg4 will probably be enough.
But if you're targeting broadcast, you probably want to pickup one of Canon XL2 minidv "professional" camcorders. That'll set you back about $4000.
It can be had on Ebay for $600 package deals.
I think you need to let the camcorder know that you are the boss. It sounds like you are treating your equipment like it is fragile, and it's adapting to meet your expectations.
I've had a hi-8 camera for almost a decade now, I just throw mine in the backpack with all my gear, and it's held up with no problems.
If you don't need DVD quality video, just get a hi-8 for $50 and hit the road.
bigger than any womans.
mtnsfor
This seems like a great time to consider a warranty of some kind.
Most skydivers and other extreme sports types have cameras these days. I have a (now old) Sony PC9 which I have helmet mounted (oo-err) and has survived quite a lot of jumping, skidoo riding, heli-boarding (-30c) and general snow boarding.
It has finally started giving me grief however, not at the tape transport, but the auto-focus mechanism (which sometimes sticks).
My advice would be to post a polite note on a skydiving forum and find out what people there recommend.
Good luck.
Given the reasonable price of Mini-DV camcorders, you'd be better off purchasing two or three identical units and rotate their use. If something fails you can pull out the backup. You might also find it useful to record your work from different positions and edit them together.
Since you asked, I've had good experience with a hand-sized Sony DCR-PC9 -- it's been beat up but remains completely functional and reliable.
-- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD
I've dropped my canon gl2 numerous times and it still works great.
I can't speak for the newer Sony stuff but I do know that the old "handycam" line was built like a tank. I have a DCR-7000 (Digital 8 not mini DV) that just keeps on ticking after being through more than its fair share of use and ski accidents. It also seems to handle moisture really well (like melting snow after a tumble). I've also heard excellent things about the Sony VX-1000 that has been a staple of digital videographer setups for years now. It is MiniDV and can be had now used for <$1000. This camera's a good balance of picture quality (it's a 3 CCD), ruggedness, and cost while lacking some of the modern features (not necessities) like night vision.
Rapidly approaching the Zener knee...
I think what you need is a small DV Deck. Cameras aren't designed to handle so much playback.
at film school we use vx-2100 for all the lower video classes and ive found that with that, a beachtek xlr apater, and a k6/m33 gun mic everything should be awsome. that or shoot HD
Linux is like living in a teepee. No Windows, no Gates, Apache in house.
No offense meant to anyone, it's just that Slashdot is the worst place I've been for audio visual advices. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the only professionnal here but we are few and our words often get lost in the sea of audio and video wannabees that speaks well and hence look like the real deal.
I've heard some of the worst misconception about audio and video on these forum spoken as if they were the mother of all truth and moderated +5 something because of it.
Anyways, In my experience the Panasonic AG-DVX100AP is a very good camera for the price and it's very sturdy, we are using it for coorporate events and music shows where we need to do a lot of travelling shots or if we need to move a lot between shots since it's light, hold pretty well and has a very good picture, the quality is surprising, then again it's a 3CCD camera if I remember well so it does help. As for extra sturdiness use a road case with internal padding, you know those case that are reinforced with metal, are usually black and are kept close with those cool twist-latches, they are expensive but they are also worth it.
Some of the new HD cams are using hard drives. The real benefit is virtually no moving parts beyond the disk. They also do standard definition and would probably be fairly good for what they want.
These units are intended for news crews and come with a bit of durability.
That's really where he wants to look. It's not like people don't use cameras strictly in home.
So pick up any broadcast professionals mag and peek about. Though they do tend to be fairly expensive.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
You should do an economic analysis of the cost of getting a rugged camera vs the cost of simply replacing the cheaper consumer level ones every 9 months or so. Also, consider buying a replacement warranty from some place like Best Buy.
It's got to be cheaper to simply replace the Sony every 9 months using the Best Buy warranty than it is to buy one of those pro dvcams. A typical pro level camera is around $5k and up, so you have to get 10 years of use out of the pro one to make it worthwhile at 0% interest rate. At real interest rates it's even longer life required. Do you really even WANT 10 years of service from a camera? Tech changes faster than that.
((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) http://www.endpointcomputing.com a scientific approach to custom computing.
I have Canon IS 1S with a 4GB CF flash drive. It fell few times on a wooden floor with not even a scratch. Friend of mine just bought Minolta A200 with 8GB of flash which is supposed to be event better. Both of these will record at 640x480x30fps which may not be exactly DV but is very close. 4GB flash is good for 40 min of video. If that is not enough for you then you can carry a laptop and transfer there or one of these battery powered hard drives (40 or 80 GB) with integrated CF readers.
Solution? Buy a mid-priced one at Best Buy, along with the extended warranty. If you're likely to need it (and you likely will), the extended warranty is a bargain. My first two Sony MiniDV cams both failed just after a year. The Best Buy extended warranty will cover it for four years.
Yes, you will have to let them repair it if it breaks, which can take a couple of weeks. But the $200 you spend on the extended warranty is less than the $260 that Sony will charge you for a repair after the first year. Also, you may be able to get the manager to simply replace the product with a new model that sells for the original purchase price--especially if you have to bring the camcorder back more than once. As an added bonus, the extended warranty does cover the battery, should it need replacing.
Yeah, yeah. I know there are a lot of people who hate Best Buy. And yeah, for the most part, the extended warranties are a rip off. But I've found that for some reason, MiniDV cameras are extremely prone to breaking, and this is the best solution that I've found for the problem.
Sorry to break it to you, but you are not going to get a consumer product which lasts for more than a year under regular use unless you are very, very lucky - and I do mean luck.
Consumer products are designed to break so that you'll buy a new version a short time down the road. That's why all consumer products should be considered an expendable good. Surprise! Most new companies come out with a new product version at least anually - perfect timing for designed obsolecense!
If you want something that's rugged and repairable, you're going to have to purchase a device that costs enough to make repairing it economical for both you and the company - in other words, something that's very expensive and 'industrial'. It won't be easy to use.
Cheapest, best route is probably to keep slugging it out for the 'cheap' consumer brand stuff and hope for the best.
For what it's worth, both my brother and I have Canon Z40s. My brother has used his constantly for the last two years (well, quite often - a couple hours a week, I guess). It's a little body worn, but it still works fine. Mine works fine as well, and I like their product over what the others offer. *shrug*
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Don't spend large amounts of money, get the cheapest one you can find with reasonable features and quality and just allow for the fact that it needs to get replaced every so often. I'd much rather have to buy 10 $200 recorders instead of one $2000 which might get stolen misplaced or break in a fall. Get an expensive pair of sunglasses and you'll lose them in a week, get a cheap pair and you can't throw them away!!!
THe Sony PDX-10 is a prosumer camera that is both portable and durable - check it out
Sure, camcorders are fragile, but breaking one every 12 months? It sounds to me you'd do well to think more about how you're handling and packing them, whether you buy a rugged(ized) one or not.
I'm sorry for preaching and stating the obvious, but it seems to me that one has to deal with various fragile items on the road besides cameras, such as laptops, cell phones, the glasses you're wearing, etc.
The Panasonic line.
I am embarking on my two year bike journey/documentary. You can see it at worldcyclist.com
What I am using is a 3 CCD chip (A MUST!) Panasonic PV-GS120 (the 150 has replaced it). It has a few drawbacks, no deal breakers though. It has a cinema-like mode, not true 16:9 shooting. It does have a stereo mike input which, with 2 Radio Shack lavaliere mono mikes and a stereo y connector, works pretty good for interview subjects.
Before buying any Mini-DV get the manual from Amazon, you can download them usually.
Before you know it people will beat down a path to your door if you have a good idea. I have a proven Emmy winning director assembling mine, the book already optioned and a sponsorship from Sugoi apparel
I also smoked for 20 years, am slightly overweight and am 39 years old. No one is more surprised than me.
Have you considered just buying obsolete VHS camcorders from garbage sales/flea markets/eBay, running them until they die, and then disposing of their corpses? If you're justing making recordings for your own viewing, ye olde analogue video tape should be good enough quality.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I do not have a digital video camera recommendation, but as far as tough goes, the best film camera I own was designed as an underwater camera (low-end hanimex, forget the model, buried in the junk someplace right now). Tough as nails, takes great snapshots on dry land and looks "normal" as cameras go, ie, no weird plexi housing over a regular camera. Perhaps look at those manufacturers who make such UW cameras.
the sony vx2100 is a rock solid camera. extremely sturdy. i have one and i love it.
OK, fess up: "science show" is some kind euphemism for "sex ed" "anatomy" demonstrations, isn't it. You're just a bunch of pornographers. Shame on you (for not sharing the recordings)!
I used to run the video program at a relatively large camp up in Canada...we produced 2 or 3 weekly recap videos along with 2 or 3 weekly program videos (we'd go into town in monkey costumes etc.)...we used a bunch of cameras (Canon - Elura, Elura 2, GL1, XL1's and ZR10-100's)...our main problem was dirt and stuff getting in and wrecking the heads...we started out with an elura and 2 ZR10's...the elura got jacked so we got an elura 2...it lasted about a year, we also picked up another 2 ZR10's...one of which is still working fine 5 years later...the others all died, and were replaced with ZR30's, 45's and 90's all of which have died within 6 weeks...I think the ZR10's were the best...they were tanks (the new ZR's are plastic and feel like they'll fall apart...some of them got stuck in the open position)...the GL1 and XL1 didn't really spend enough time at camp to determine if they passed the rugged test...
The ZR10 that has lasted has seen it all...we filmed some Jackass style videos, it's been underwater, on canoe trips, down water slides, off diving boards...bike trips...pretty much everything...if you can find a good ZR10...that's the one to get...
I hope you got the extended warranty on the cameras you have used in the past. I would think you could almost ignore the toughness of the hardware if you could get it replaced/repaired fast enough under the warranty coverage. You'd probably end up with a new camera every 12 months, but only pay for it every 3-4 years.
For those that like the sound of this line of cameras but would like to see more storage capacity, JVC has apparently announced they're going to start making Everios using 20GB and 30GB hard drives. This new line will supposedly support Mac editing in iMovie for those who want that sort of thing (older models did not offer this). I've attached a the link to the JVC press release for those who want to read up about it.
Reference URL:D =1
http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=461&pageI
Disclaimer: Please note that I do not own an Everio, nor any other camcorder, so I am not in a position to make any authorative recommendations or comparisons, let alone attest to their durability. My opinions are void where prohibited.
I've been looking for one with RCA or SVideo in, but can't find one anywhere. I didn't want to have to buy a eyeTV or some separate deal for something I expect to use once. Any suggestions?
Dude, everyone's surprised when they hit 39.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
...sit and read /.
As for the camera itself, you should be fine with a nicer consumer grade camera *if* you protect it with a case and make sure to keep it clean. In other words, it should perform fine if you *treat* it like professional gear.
What exactly would the difference between rugged and replaceable do for you? For example (and this is purely numbers out of my butt, like most /. numbers/poll results/stats/etc) if a ruggedized camera that will last 4-5 years costs $1500, but a cheap one that you can get for $250 lasts 10-14 months before replacement is needed, can you budget to just do the annual replacement? I'd also think that camcorder tech has a trend sorta similar to the computer world - wait a year and its either half price or twice as good.
Anyway, if you really need rugged, try checking with the companies that supply cameras that mount on race cars or perhaps military suppliers.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
It http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?productId=PRD120700 0&pathId=119 contains a 4 GByte microdrive and has, other than the zoom lens and the mechanics inside the microdrive itself, no moving parts.
The street price was less than $1000, I think around $900 last time I checked.
The additional advantage is, you can just plug the microdrive into a computer and have all your footage on the computer in an instant, without lengthy uploads.
Dedicated Linux servers (root access) $45 p.M.
Buy a bunch of used, working Canon ZR-series camcorders for less than $200 apiece. That's what I did. I've always got one in a bag, I loan them out to friends and colleagues. They're not tough but if they fail (which none of em have yet), it won't hurt you much.
You didn't specify one-chip or three-chip camera, so I'm assuming you just want inexpensive mini-DV to document and record situations, not produce HD documentaries...
The reason to use digital videotape is because it's cheap and is a good storage medium.
while its not unheared of for wrong signals to kill older monitors but if you had this happen in 1999 it almost certainly must have been a fairly old shitty monitor even at that time.
i personally think this is just a plain troll
There is one caution about the MiniDV marketplace and that is lubricants used on the tapes themselves. Different manufacturers use different ones. The MiniDV tape standard doesn't say what the lube on the tape is, so there are two popular kinds in common use. The three brands of tapes I prefer use the same kind, but recently on a trip out of the country I had to use a brand that was the wrong type because it was the only thing available. I've done this before and not experienced big problems, but this trip was different. The camcorder would record a little and then there was usually a tape error. Even in footage where the camera would keep recording (apparently okay) there would be subtle problems like breaks in the timecode that weren't visible but gave me lots of headaches in editing. Considering that I was recording under very rough conditions I would have suspected lots of things if I wasn't already warned about the lubricant issue. Rough conditions, old equipment, etc. Though I lost the footage for that day, I was able to get a tape cleaner, clean the camera, and record and play on my non-standard type of tapes that night. The next day I was able to record without significant problems. But at the soonest opportunity I went back to my usual brands when I got back to the US.
Which lube is better? Neither, just do what you can not to mix the two types.
--
So who is Hotter? Ali or Ali's Sister?
I'll agree with the other poster who said /. is not the place to ask A/V questions. Try DV Info, which is a DV site frequented by a lot of professionals.
just don't get a JVC unless you have a T.I. chipset in your firewire card.... JVC has bad customer support
This isn't really an answer to the question, but how many opportunities do you get to comment on your rugged mini-DV camera?
:)
Back in January of 2000, I made an semi-impulse buy of a discontinued model from the JVC CyberCam line. My wife was in the hospital about to have our second child, and I ran out to the camera shop to buy a digital video camera. It was a pretty good camera and I liked the DV format and all that -- and it served us well for the birth and beyond.
Then one day I put it on top of our Explorer to help get the kids in the car, and you know what happened. I pulled out onto the road (a busy road) and accelerated up a hill, and I heard such a clatter, I looked in the rear-view to see what was the matter. Then what to my horrified eyes should appear but an accidental slip into holiday rhyme -- which just ended. Seriously dude, I saw my -- what was it? -- $800 -- video camera tumbling off the back of my car and into the road, with traffic coming to run it over. It was horrifying.
I stopped and got out (I think I actually pulled over) and I went running back with my hands in the air. "My baby! My baby! I lost a contact! There's a land mine in the road!" I don't remember what I said, but I sure did want them to stop. I went out into the road -- I guess they did stop, I don't really remember. I picked up the camera, absolutely positive that it was toast.
I got back in the car and started driving and, while driving, I turned it on and took it through it's paces. It was scratched and the preview screen was a little loose around the hinges, but it worked.
And it still works today. It's a champ, a real workhorse. The switch is now broken to the point that I have to use a pen or something else pointy to turn on the recording, but it takes good video and it's always been great with iMovie, with the firewire out and all that -- and it has RCA outs as well. It's a great little camera and we've gotten good use out of it.
So I recommend JVC
RP
They are fragile. It's because they are frequently bulimic.
I actually work at a large electronics retailer and we have a new samsung sport mini-dv camcorder that should hold up to you needs. it's coated with a rubberized material and was actually made to get banged up doing extreme sports and other ruff activities. it holds up to regular wear and tear much better than anything else on the market. it is not really a simple camcorder in that it has a lot of features the really expensive ones do + some exclusive features but, here's the best part: well under $500!!! you can find this fine peice of hardware at any large electronics chain that's worth anything. unfortunatly i do not remember the model # and am too lazy to look it up for you! =-)
Extended warranty! How can I lose?!
:P
(that episode where he becomes very smart... until he decides to go back to normal)
Take a look at some midrange digital cameras that have good video clip & audio recording. Oftentimes you can even do some minor editing and trimming on the spot.
I've pretty much stopped taking my miniDV camcorder anywhere since I got a new digicam. My Canon Powershot A85 camera can record quite a bit of low res video and audio on a 60x 1GB CF. It can only do 640x480 at 15fps for about 30 seconds, but I'm sure there are cameras out that can go indefinitely at a decent resolution and frame rate nowadays. The quality is only marginally worse than my Samsung SCD27 camcorder, since the miniDV has pretty bad interlacing artifacts after I import it onto a computer.
It's just so much easier to carry the camera around in my pocket and whip it out to grab shorts within a second or so. The miniDV would just take too long to boot up, so I'd miss all of the moments from the kids while waiting 5-10 seconds for it to warm up and focus.
Sometimes I can even be bothered to carry a mini tripod around... I picked up a Slik Mini-Pro V after hearing some good reviews about its predecessors. It's pretty much a full pan/tilt mount, and it even sticks to windows!
If you already carry a laptop around and can keep it with someone you trust during recording, the USB2.0 logitech quickcam 4000 series might be a good option, and opens the door to doing stuff like wifi webcasts and stuff too at a fairly decent quality.
Anyway, that's the extent of my highly amateur recording experience
Reporters use Sony PD-170 (if SD is enough) in a rugged roadcase.
Usually the problems occurs in transport, not usage and manipulation. So a rugged roadcase would protect the equipement, even of fragile.
Tomorrow is another day...
is that they record using MPEG-2 for compression instead of DV, which makes frame-by-frame editing a dicey proposition - have to convert back and forth.
+++ATH0
Club racers often use bullet (or lipstick) cameras for recording different angles of in-car video. They are cheap, relatively tough, and can go in (or on) places where camcorders can't go.
Those cameras take all kinds of abuse from racers -- loading and unloading along with the vibration and jarring of a practice session, qualifying, and a race. Most folks seem to use DV cameras for input but if you like, you can record directly to a laptop computer (providing that you have the proper inputs and a sufficiently speedy hard drive). Do a Google search on 'bullet camera'. They're cheap, and you can buy a few spares in case you break one on the road.
-Turkey
3CCDs just look better than 1CCD systems (videolink - resizes your window) You can even see the difference in the lcd screens of the camcorders if you compare the two. The Panasonic's image is a standout in both color and clarity. I have a Panasonic FZ20 digital cam (nice shot - link resizes your window) and I can attest to the quality of the Leica lens on there as well.
I don't keep a lid on my coffee so when I walk around I look busy -me
Ironic isn't it that the technology to detect the monitor's capable refresh settings in software is at least what....15 years old ? Probably much older. Never mind 1999, in 2005 X11 still can't do it. Really the mind boggles as to why X Windows is even around these days, would be cool if it went back into the dusty old wardrobe it came from.
This guy http://vagabonding.com/about/000096.html/ took a Panasonic AG-DVX100 on the road for a year straight. It still works.
Ok, what I'm going to say is going to sound heretical. And I know you're probably budget strapped, but if you need a durable camera, you need to work UP the product line, not down.
The $3-700 consumer camera is designed to be a wall wart that you, the consumer, sit on the shelf, and use to film the occasional family event, and if it breaks, oh well, it's broke. It's cheap enough to get a new one, and likely, much "better".
In order to get a durable camera, you have to get what's considered a "pro-sumer" camera. This is usually either the top of the line of the consumer product line, or the bottom of the line of the professional line. These cameras are designed to take some considerable abuse, and not die. They can take almost as much abuse as professional level cameras, but aren't as expensive to fix.
Case in point: where I work, we have 5 Canon GL1s that we provide for student check out. We've had these cameras for 5 years now, and each one has been out for repair no more than 2 times total over that time. Now, we know students don't really take care of the equipment when they have it in their posession, but the cameras hold up pretty well to the abuse. We've only had one actually get BROKEN in the last year.
So, you should look at the equivalent in whatever your brand of choice is. The Canon GL1/2/3, the sony VX2000/2100 or the new HDV model they just introduced (What we're migrating to soon). JVC makes some ok stuff.
It's worth looking into. It's a little pricey, but they are simply much better than the consumer ghetto stuff.
Reeses
Don't know if this has been posted, but I've heard Costco doesn't really care about returns even a year or so later, so if they aren't up to the task, take whatever you buy back, get your money back and buy another :P
On a durability note USC Film School uses the PD-150's for their incoming Grad students (or PD-100's for undergrads), and they last quite a while (based on the condition I got mine in) so I'd second that recommendation (which I did see higher up). They're more expensive and a little bigger than hand helds, but good quality 3 CCD chips balance the price and quality.
My experiences with the extended warranty has proven to be profitable when purchasing electronics. Using a sample on nextag.com electronic pricing declines about 10% / qtr. So a $600 camera at the end of one year is now only about $400. This is due to increased competition for the model and features.
If the extended warranty covers the purchase price (my experience) then at the end of one year you take it back and either trade up or get cash in your pocket.
There is usually something that wears out after a year to come under the extended warranty; and if not you got a keeper anyway.
I bought one item for $120 including the warranty. After 13 months it started working poorly and I took it back to Best Buy. I got credit for the full amount and bought the newer model now only $100 including new extended warranty. Nothing like walking in with garage sale quality and leaving with new and $20 to boot.
If you have a laptop that can accept video in you can use any
number of very durable helmet cams and store your video
compressed on your laptop. Kind of kills two birds as I'm
guessing you ultimately take your DV and make it available
on web or by cd anyways.
Annoying as hell an unelegant. Yet, cheap and outrageously scalable. Magnetic tape has been with us for quite some time. And at this rate, it's unlikely to go away anytime soon.
Why would you want to replace cheap tape with expensive flash for an application that must be laid down and read linearly. Random access isn't a concern until editing. At that point, it's on your hard drive at home.
The idea of replacing tape for video with hard drives is a dream. Perhaps when 2.5" are up to 1.5 terrabyte capacities, than you will have a practical device. Until then, cheap and disposable tape will rule.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
The Sony VX2100 and PD170 (they're almost the same camera, but the PD170 has a few more professional features) are generally considered the most rugged and reliable mini-dv cameras around. I've heard some statistics and general anecdotal evidence indicating that they're much more durable than the Panasonic and Canon models in the same range.
They are favorites among skateboard video makers, documentarians (), and professional videographers in general. I have heard people talk about having dropped, kicked, and generally abused these
I don't know your price range, but the VX2100 runs about $2300 and the PD170 about $2700 new.
By the way, before anyone thinks I'm a sony fanboy, know that my personal camcorder is a Panasonic. Other brands have other desirable features, but at that price range and in terms of ruggedness/durability, the sonys are it.
Good luck!
Yeah, I wish I could find a good rugged came for my Lawn Mower Racing. Right now we are thinking about mounting a cheap old camcorder to the hood and just using a capture card...but a reall dv cam or wireless cam would be really cool. THe problem is with rolling your mower. That hurts the cam.
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The old Sony SP-7 I had was HI-8, and with it I pioneered videography while exploring caves in the Western U.S. with it back in the '80's.
I just wrapped it loosely in 1/2 inch closed cell foam, stuck it in my cave pack and tossed that sucker through some of the most technically challenging caves the U.S. has to offer, without any failures in three years of HARD caving!
That SP-7 was one TOUGH sucker!.
I'd wager that it would survive just fine for your application.
Some cams break when you alternatively use Sony and TDK tapes. article with links
Where I worked we had seven Canon XM1s (or GL1 in the US) that were lent out to art students. Believe me: most students were not tech-savvy any even had trouble getting a tape in and out of these things. All the Canons survived, up to this day, being lent out nearly 24/7, except the one time when a student tried to film will standing on the back of a bike... They have 3 CCDs, a great lens and an excellent built-in mic for general filming. Unfortunately the XM1 was discontinued and replaced by the XM2 which was of a significant lesser build quality.
I bought the DCR-14E or whatever, base DV model with Zeiss optics. My gf has left it out in the rain overnight, no ill effects. I once dropped it from my backpack doing 210km/h on my bike. The flimsy fake leather bag got more or less shredded, but the camera got only a small scratch on the lenscap. I'll try dropping it into a volcano next.
Money for nothing, pix for free
This was filmed with a sonytrv 20h ake.html
http://www.captainvideo.nl/work/television/sports
i have done many projects with camera's in extreme situations and have come to like the sony handycams a lot.
Mine has been taking abuse for over 4 years now, it looks like sh*t all scratched and beaten but it still works fine.
Perhaps you should take a closer look at why these camera's break down. Dirt? Moisture? vibrations? uneducated users? and try to fix that. Else take a prosumer camcorder like the PD 150 they have an auto mode that works well for people without experience and are build to take a beating.
Mini DVD seems to be the newest craze in camcorders and I kind of like the idea of not using tape.
Meh.
Here's a flash camcorder that is allegedly waterproof: http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2 c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=SC-X105L%2FXAA
It's expensive, but a Panasonic DVX-100A is a extremely rugged camera. Its stability has made this camera a favorite among the independent film community. It is a hand-held model, miniDV media.
If your looking for a larger camera, a shoulder mount, get a XL1s. It's in the same price range, another great camera.
Both of these cameras are expensive now, however since Canon came out with the XL2, and Panasonic is introducing the HDX-200. Most filmmakers who use these older cameras are going to be upgrading and selling their older cameras.
"But I'm not a filmmaker, why do I want these cameras." There is a reason why filmmakers choose these cameras: they last and will always give you consistant results.
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you." --leonstryker
Well, I bought a panasonic PV-DV51 (at least I think that's the model number, it's been a long time since I thought about it) several years ago.
I've used it for just general home stuff, but I also made a couple mounts for my car, one inside above the rear passenger seat for an in-car cam, and the other one where the drivers-side rear mirror goes. I do a lot of autocrosses and roadrace track days, and the camera gets bounced around pretty darned good.
The only problem I ever had with it was at the Lake Superior ProRally last year, when it was raining/drizzling out, and the water got inside enough to first make the display stop, then make the buttons stop working. I just left it sit out overnight with a fan blowing past it, and it's worked fine ever since.
There is a LOT of vibration that the camera gets with the way it mounts, but I've never had a problem yet. I don't have a nice DV transport either, so I have to use the camera's internals to get the video from the miniDV tape to the computer.
I've also just recently purchased another camera, a Canon model, and it seems to be holding up to the task ok so far, but I haven't used it as much as the Panasonic.
I've got to wonder, if you're just taping presentations you're giving (is the camera mounted on a tripod?) why would your cameras be chewed up like this?
If you can read this, you are most likely close enough.
At $100, you can afford to have more cameras in more hands and just throw them away when the stop working in a year or so.
Also, make sure you get a professional grade camera. You would probably do well with a Canon GL2 or a Sony vx2000.
They all fail eventually. Even with the firewire capture, cameras still die. Depends on how good you want the video to be. You could buy some average sony cameras - trv250 for example. They are like $150/pop on Ebay. They do a very good job for an average camera and the price. I use them for disposeable jobs (white water rafting, skydiving, lava flows, political conventions, things like that).
If you don't need any fancy feature, you will be better of with a cheap digital camera that have no moving parts on it.
The Olympus Stylus Verve looks grate. It's water resistant, cheat, very nice overall. It's movie mode have a 320x200 pixels resolution (half a mini-DV camera) and can store 21 minutes of movies in a 512MB card...
If you need better resolution camera, you can get the Sony Cyber-shot® DSC-S40 that has a 640x480 movie mode with 30fps, but it's not water resistant...
Any digital camera will last far longer than a camera that have moving parts...
lol.
It is the method of transport.
http://www.anvilcase.com/applications/film.html
That would be my suggestion, too. It's the nearest thing to a Toughbook-type cam.
Get a half-isa PC/104 board. Get a laptop harddisk. Get a USB Camera. Get a DD battery pack.
Unite all 4 with duck tape.
Go filming.
If the USB camera does 640x480 at 30fps or more, you have something that generally produces better pictures than a much more expensive and fragile digital camera, and you cant record movies on the same media too many times.
Oh and you'll need lots of perl scripts.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Uh, the guy 3 posts up agrees with you on the Panasonic line, but says the 150 still has the 3 CCDs. He says he has one. Are you caling him a liar?
Great advice on d/ling the manual first, btw.
No video input, only out via Svideo and composite
"PV-GS120 (the 150 has replaced it)" His comment means that the PV-GS150 has replaced the PV-GS120 and implies that both models have 3 CCDs. I'm not sure how you read otherwise.
I've used a Sony DSR-PD150 low-end professional DVCAM camera quite a lot over the past year. It's designed for professional use and is pretty rugged. It's also got a lot of the features that you'll need if you plan to get decent broadcast-quality footage out the other end: 3 CCDs, manual focus, iris, gain, audio levels and XLR audio inputs.
It's the location workhorse for a number of television channels and is highly regarded within the industry.
The advantage of DVCAM cameras is that they record on plain old MiniDV tapes (and in standard short play DV if you want it), so you can get tapes just about anywhere.
You can probably get one relatively cheaply second hand, or get an updated model (the PD170) for about £2500 in the UK (maybe $3500-$4000 in the US).
Of course, you don't say how much you'd like to spend. If you have a significantly smaller budget then probably the only way to go is to get a cheap MiniDV camera (though 3 CCDs, manual focus and iris are very nice features if you can afford them) and accept that it's going to break under heavy use.
I really think that Video is going to become more and more important over the next few years.
The tools are getting cheaper and easier to use.
I'm creating some reviews of the best cameras.
http://www.video-camera-reviews.com/
Laugh at my ignorance while I learn Rails - a Real ne
Yep that's exactly the point I was making.
Search the web for "Canon Remove the Cassette Problem" and you'll never want to own one. All of their MiniDV cameras use the same tape transport and it fails after 10-20 hours of use, and keeps ejecting the tape.
They'll stick you with a $150+ repair out of warranty and the problem reoccur. Do your homework and you'll see.