Astrologer Sues NASA Over Comet Probe

0110011001110101 writes "NASA's mission that sent a space probe smashing into a comet raised more than cosmic dust -- it also brought a lawsuit from a Russian astrologer. 'Bai is seeking damages totaling $300 million -- the approximate equivalent of the mission's cost -- for her "moral sufferings," Izvestia said, citing her lawyer Alexander Molokhov. She earlier told the paper that the experiment would "deform her horoscope." ' "

Comments

Her parents should be proud...

[It doesn't come easy]

Obviously at least one Russian citizen has wholeheartedly embraced the US style of democracy.

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[Bob3141592]

Of course, if this suit is allowed to proceed, doesn't that also open her up to suits by her clients for all the predictions she made that didn't work out perfectly? 3oo million probably won't be enough for her to pay all the suits she'll lose if the courts determine astrology is legally valid and binding.

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[Saeger]

Greedy parasitism isn't democr... oh.

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[Anonymous Luddite]

>> if the courts determine astrology is legally valid

I predict great disapointment in her future ;-)

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[FortKnox]

Flamebait.

Joke:

*Something silly to enjoy
*Having a laugh at someone elses expense
*Having a laugh even though it may offend something slightly.

Taking things too seriously:

*Reading a joke and taking serious offense and getting all riled up.
*Not enjoying something silly just to make people laugh and be happy
*General Asshattery

Lighten up dude... sheesh.

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[Spackler]

Meanwhile, back in America, a Mr. Spackler of the entity Slashdot is suing some stupid Russian woman for $.65, which is the cost of the can of Pepsi I just spat out my nose.

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[njvic]

ah.. a typical capitalist response!

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[mpathetiq]

Sweet, I just sprayed snot on my keyboard. Thanks njvic! Where are my mod points when I need them. +1, Keyboard Snot

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[modecx]

Don't foget the cost of the keyboard, the physical injury (that so totally burns) and emotional distress!

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[UrgleHoth]

Did you damage the can? If there is recycling where you live, don't forget the container deposit.

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[pilgrim23]

A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual": find out how he feels about astrology. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[SolusSD]

that would be fantastic. Me: "hello, I was reading your magazines horoscope section... yep. yep.. that's correct I'm still not a millionare. Ok. I'll hold.. " Magazine: "Thank you for holding, this is the legal department!"

Re:Her parents should be proud...

[Mick Ohrberg]

Ooh, and if your coworkers were mentally or physically injured (spat Pepsi upon), you can make it a class action law suit.

The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[The I Shing]

If the Russian court agrees to let this case proceed, it opens the door for all kinds of inane, utterly frivolous lawsuits from astrologers, witch doctors, faith healers, and every other kind of kook out there who wants to make a quick buck by accusing actual scientists of violating some crackpot principle. I'm not an objectivist, but I have to say that Ayn Rand must be rolling over in her grave.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Nplugd]

Right, because "inane, utterly frivolous lawsuits" never EVER happened in the US so far. Ever.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Russian court agrees to let this case proceed, it opens the door for all kinds of inane, utterly frivolous lawsuits from astrologers, witch doctors, faith healers, and every other kind of kook out there who wants to make a quick buck by accusing actual scientists of violating some crackpot principle.

On the other hand, it would also show very clearly that there's absolutely no evidence that such crackpot theories are valid. Think about it - this woman stands to gain $300 million if she can show that her particular crackpot theory is valid. If the court case proceeds, and she can't show that astrology works - given some pretty damn big incentive - then perhaps less people will be inclined to believe in astrology.

By the way, what's the deciding factor between whether or not something is a) a crackpot theory, b) a superstition, or c) a religion? Seems to me, the amount of believers and money involved has something to do with it.

A crackpot theory is typically believed by one or two people. Astrology is a cottage industry. And Christianity has a billion believers and stupid amounts of money.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[flabbergasted]

Yeah, the next thing you know a bunch of fundamentalist christians will be trying to force through laws to push their form of creationism into public classrooms.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[erroneus]

Among the list of "crankpots" should we include mainstream religion and their various objections to things like cloning? I fail to see how mainstream religion differs significantly from the rest of the crackpots... I mean if you overlook the organization, political power and all that.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Austerity Empowers]

No way, that'll never happen. That's just taking it too far.

On a side note, I have to leave Texas before my children get in to school. I already had my "linux" fish ripped off my car once since I moved here.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[lheal]

then perhaps less people will be inclined to believe in astrology.

Nope, not a chance. The publicity would just legitimize astrology. When the suit was finally decided in NASA's favor, believers would just spin it that NASA had better lawyers.

People who believe in astrology don't do so because of logic. They cling to the hope that the universe is not just a giant machine, that they are somehow made unique among humans by their keen intelligence, inside knowledge, and special placement in it.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it's not a popular view on this site, so this'll likely get modded to troll pretty quickly (people here don't seem open minded enough to tolerate different points of view), but your comments show a complete misunderstanding of some of these groups of which you so willingly disparage.

I've seen faith healers do things M.D.s can't. While I'm not a Christian, I have to point out that when Jesus healed people he said, "Your faith has made you well," giving credit for the miracle to the person's ability to believe, not to himself. I've seen many posts on /. about how bad religion is, but I have yet to see one by someone who has actually taken time to understand religion or any spiritual beliefs. I don't mean just taking them apart and saying it's all psychology and the "opiate of the masses" type thing, but I mean by someone who has REALLY taken time to understand faith or any type of spirituality.

There are things science can't always explain. I've seen astrolgers that don't know me but have written up complete reports about who I am and what I feel, think, and believe -- without ever having met me. I've seen people healed by faith healers, and I've met psychics who can vividly describe situations and people that later become part of my life. And before you start talking about "cold reading", I have a solid background in psychology, and did not give these people a chance to meet me or be exposed to me to cold read me.

The difference is I have always been open to different beliefs and, rather than judging them as negative or people in them as "kooks", I've taken the time to find out about many religious, many pseudo-relogions, and as many belief systems as I could explore. I've seen things happen that you would claim are impossible -- yet I've seen them happen in ways that are scientifically valid, such as double blind studies.

Like I said, the difference is that I was open and willing to explore, instead of judging and speaking about what I did not know.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Flyboy Connor]

Actually, lawsuits by crackpots are not uncommon. Especially producers of "alternative" medicine are prone to sueing people who state that their product doesn't work. Normally, such a case is judged on the fact whether it can be shown objectively that the defendants statements were false. Science is objective, and such cases are therefore usually resolved by a loss of the crackpot (since alternative medicine is alternative because science has shown that it doesn't really work). I think in this case the same reasoning applies: the question is whether it can be shown objectively that astrology works, and that thus the cook was damaged. As science has shown time and again, astrology is garbage, so the cook will not be able to cash.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[erroneus]

Hahaha... Yeah, they'll do that out here in Texas. We used to have elementary school classes that taught social studies and civics and stuff like that. They taught how to value freedom and how to respect one another. What ever happened to those classes? Are they still being taught? I know they left an impression on me but it seems clear that it's not leaving an impression these days.

On the other hand, you realize that a Linux fish is essentially a mobile insult against their religious expression which is their right to express (as is your mockery).

Really, the only way you can win is to put it back on and then train a video camera on it until you catch whoever is doing that and haul'm into criminal and civil court. It would be vandalism in the criminal case and "emotional damage" in the civil. Could be lucrative.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[daniil]

According to Izvestia, the first hearing took place on Monday, but as the representatives of NASA were not present in the court, it was postponed to the 28th.

And i do believe they will let the case proceed, as the judge recommended that the astrologer and her defendant find a specialist who would be able to tell whether the experiment caused and increased threat of comet impact. It seems that they are trying to spin the case into a demonstration against the US "solving all problems, scientific ones included, with bombs." (quoting the astrologer herself) Yeah, so it might be absurd, but it seems that in foreign politics, everything goes for the Russians.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[domnu]

People who believe in astrology don't do so because of logic. They cling to the hope that the universe is not just a giant machine, that they are somehow made unique among humans by their keen intelligence, inside knowledge, and special placement in it.

The very nature of astrology implies that the universe is a giant machine and that it determines your attributes. The placements of planets A, B, and C indicate that I have attribute X. While the belief is illogical, the motivation for it appears to be a fear of uncertainty (or freedom) and a desire to know one's "place" in the universe as opposed to the desire to be empowered individuals.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Among the list of "crankpots" should we include mainstream religion and their various objections to things like cloning? I fail to see how mainstream religion differs significantly from the rest of the crackpots

I couldn't agree more. As for the difference between crackpots and mainstream religions, it's easy: mainstream religions are entrenched. They've taken hold centuries and millenia ago, when people didn't know better, and they've permeated the way people live, think and the societies they now live in for a very long time. Therefore, they're much harder to displace than contemporary crackpots, who now run into the wall of science and reason, and so they don't have the time to take roots.

I think the only reasonably successful "new" religion that has arisen in recent times is the Latter Day Saints, and even that was over 150 years ago and it's only a variation of Christianity. And frankly, if you read who were Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and what they did, you can't help thinking they were brigands (no offense to you LDS folks, I really like most of you a lot, but really...). But I digress...

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Gyorg_Lavode]

My understanding of the KS debate was whether to explicitly deny that no form of creation other than evolution was possible or not. From what I have heard the media distorted and fanatisized it. While I believe everything currently points to evolution, I'm not so closed minded to think that I could still be wrong.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Monkelectric]

Mainstream religion differs from regular crackpots in that theres enough of one to label the other...

Arguably, I have more proof that the events of Star Trek or Lord of the Rings happened than anything in the bible. But I'd be "crazy" to believe one of these things...

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Viking Coder]

Nope - but telling people in AIDS-stricken regions that using condoms is a sin... not so cool.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[FellowConspirator]

Religious sentiment aside, there are quite a few very pragmatic reasons why one might approach cloning with quite a bit of caution. If it were to reach the sci-fi level of cloning, there's all sorts of issues of identity management and "clone's rights" (e.g., for harvesting of organs, etc.) that are not worked out. From the immediately practical point of view, how the law treats (or should treat) embryos and the like is anything but clear and settled, and from the technical standpoint, we don't understand enough about epigenetics to haul off and start wholesale cloning for medical purposes (only to find out later that we accidentally introduce a novel autoimmune response that will not only cause harm, but billions of dollars in medical care and litigation).

I know it's vogue to lambast religion these days, but the world's religions are getting a seriously bum rap. Sure, there are people that attribute their psycopathy on their religious affiliation, but despite a fondness for giving those people a disproportionate amount of media coverage, there's no evidence that such people are anything but a small crackpot minority -- sort of like astrologers who sue NASA.

At least here in the USA, the media will present any crack-pot viewpoint in opposition to the majority viewpoint and push the impression that both are equally well subscribed to and supported. Global warming is a good example. In the scientific community, there's really no debate, but to hear the press tell it, it's a contraversial subject.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Tekzel]

Which is more likely? Someone is going to force religion on you today or someone is going to try to enforce no religion at all or make a slam at them for being religious? The latter makes up for 99% of all religious conversations yet they all claim the 1% is the problem. Here's a thought. Leave them alone and let them live their life rather than trying to force a ban on religion everywhere

Heres a hint. Making up numbers does not legitimize your point. In my experience, but then im from northern florida, the vast majority of the time its someone trying their best to convince me that I am going to hell because im an athiest. IF it were just a matter of "live and let live", that would be FINE. However, the religious zealots are most of the problem (again, from MY experience). I cant remember ever hearing of atheists assaulting religous people's person or property because they had a god sticker on it. However, I see and hear the reverse all the time. Happened to my wife (back when she was just my girlfriend). She had a pro Wicca bumper sticker and some god nut busted her windshield and wrote nasty stuff on her car with a magic marker, stuff along the lines that they should bring back witch burning. Kind and wonderful people, they are.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[CSIP]

I'll appoligize (as a christian) on behalf of whoever ripped off your fish, as that was a very "un-christian" act.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen astrolgers that don't know me but have written up complete reports about who I am and what I feel, think, and believe -- without ever having met me.

James Randi did an experiment where he handed out horoscopes to a class of (college) students and had them rate how closely they matched reality. Most of the students said the horoscopes were accurate. He then had them swap horoscopes, and they found out that they all had the exact same horoscope. Now, how could ONE horoscope match everyone? Because it was filled with generalities and vague statements, that's how. The students themselves filled in the details where they were missing, and sub-consciously remembered the 'hits' more than the 'misses'.

Now, without knowing the exact circumstances behind your case, I can't tell you for sure that's what happened. Only you can, if you choose to look at what happened objectively.

I've seen people healed by faith healers,

Really? If you can prove that, you might win $1,000,000! Go to www.randi.org for details.

I've met psychics who can vividly describe situations and people that later become part of my life.

I sense a... man, or maybe a woman. He is tall, maybe short. BLond hair, maybe brown or black. You'll like this person, or maybe hate them.

How'd I do??

And before you start talking about "cold reading", I have a solid background in psychology, and did not give these people a chance to meet me or be exposed to me to cold read me.

You may "have a solid background in psychology", but you don't understand what 'cold reading' is. Cold reading does NOT depend on meeting the victim before hand, or even knowing anything about them before hand. That would be 'hot reading'.
From Wikipedia: "Generally, the cold reader will make a series of vague statements, will observe the subject's reactions, and then will refine the original statements according to those reactions"..."even without prior knowledge of a person, a psychic could still obtain a great deal of his subject's history by carefully analysing his or her look and other background information, such as gender, religion, race, education level and place of origin."

So, let's apply Occams Razor. Either there are people in this world who can 'speak to spirits', 'read minds', and have other paranormal powers (but choose to eke out a living reading palms instead of, say, getting the winnign lottery numbers). OR, there are people in this world who are frauds. Fakers. Con men.

WHich is more likely?

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. I live in KS and the media royally screwed up reporting on what really happened. The Board of Education simply stated that teachers are "allowed" to offer alternatives to evolution. They were never forced to do so and evolution was never removed from the curriculum. In fact, the ruling had little affect outside of allowing teachers to critique evolution if they so chose.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[kryzx]

since alternative medicine is alternative because science has shown that it doesn't really work

This is not true. While there are certainly crackpots out there selling ineffective and even harmful snake-oil cures under the guise of alternative medicine, most alternative medicine practices have a long history and are probably effective to some degree.

The problem is that there is no money to be made in proving that they are effective, so no Big Pharma corp is going to spend money on real western medicine style drug trials.

Suppose that dandelion tea was an effective cure for cancer. Would Pfizer spend millions to do a ten year trial with thousands of patients? If they proved it worked then everyone would use the dandelions in their yard, or start cultivating them, and Pfizer would never make a penny from it. Multiply this by every naturally occuring substance on the planet.

Big Pharma has no motivation to prove the medicinal value of anything they cannot patent.

So chances are there are many treatments out there that are low cost, natural, and effective, but they will never be studied, put into JAMA, and introduced in your local doctor's office.

While I generally favor smaller government, this is one area where only government (well, possibly very well funded non-profits, too) can be effective. Gov't funded research in these topics could improve medicine, lower medical costs, and contribute to human knowledge.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[benwb]

What about Falun Gong? The chinese government says 10 million, they say 100 million. The truth is somewhere in the middle- but they are easily larger than lds (~12million members)

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Jhan]

I think the only reasonably successful "new" religion that has arisen in recent times is the Latter Day Saints, and even that was over 150 years ago and it's only a variation of Christianity.

Scientology, my friend, sciencefictionology...

Maybe it isn't wildly successfull among the people, but it seems to attract som wildly successfull people.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[mooingyak]

It's not just the Christians. Those who believe in the FSM want their theories put into classrooms too.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[krell]

"That's okay. Someone stole the Darwin fish off my car just before I left Texas."

Look at your trunk lid again. No fish, right? Look closely. See that salamander? Yes, that one, next to the keyhole. The fish was not stolen. It merely evolved.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[cellocgw]

My understanding of the KS debate was whether to explicitly deny that no form of creation other than evolution was possible or not.
Bad understanding.
Evolution theories are NOT creation theories. Whether current scientific theories of the evolutionary processes are complete and/or 100% correct is one thing. Feeling the need to say that, because the science is incomplete, creation dogmas might be valid is quite another thing.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[king-manic]

Actually, lawsuits by crackpots are not uncommon.

To fix this, you should have a law liek Canada's where the loser pays the legal bills for both sides in a law suit. This ensure frivilous law suits have to think twice. While a suit with a legitimate chance of suceeding won't be unduly impeded.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[SlamMan]

There's plenty of people who've had their Jesus fish ripped of the back of their car. My aunt has, for one.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[drooling-dog]

Maybe it isn't wildly successfull among the people, but it seems to attract som wildly successfull people.

Keep in mind that they have a special "Celebrity" branch whose members are treated to a completely different experience than the regular rank & file...

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[tverbeek]

On the other hand, you realize that a Linux fish is essentially a mobile insult against their religious expression which is their right to express (as is your mockery).

I don't think that vandalizing someone else's property is generally considered to be a Constitutionally (or morally) defended form of expression.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[tverbeek]

Which is more likely? Someone is going to force religion on you today or someone is going to try to enforce no religion at all

In this dimension? The former. There are certainly counterexamples (the state atheism of the USSR and China), but the forcing of religion (or a different religion) upon the unwilling has been a recurring theme for most of recorded history, and judging by the sample of people knocking on my front door, it remains dominant over the promotion of atheism.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[FFFish]

Of course! One should always keep an open mind.

Please provide links to the scientifically valid studies. I'm very curious.

The corollary, of course, is that it shouldn't be so open that it falls right out.

Links, please!

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[fyoder]

...that they are somehow made unique among humans by their keen intelligence, inside knowledge, and special placement in it.

Ah, sort of like slashdotters ;-)

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[teromajusa]

Arguably, I have more proof that the events of Star Trek or Lord of the Rings happened than anything in the bible.

IIRC quiet a few incidents described in the bible have been confirmed by other historical sources. I'm not talking about walking on water or plagues of locust, but wars, conquests, the names of rulers etc. By automatically dismissing everything in the bible as false, you show that you haven't critically evaluated it, which puts you in the same boat as those who assume everything in it is true.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Ced_Ex]

So, if I change a star's position or destroy it, this might change my future?
Interesting! I might just decide blow up a planet or two, next time my horoscope tells me about Saturn's bad influence on my health or something like that...

I would say Earth has more of a bad influence on your health than Saturn.

I suggest you blow up Earth and speed up our process to go to Mars.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[morgan_greywolf]

I've never heard of any atheists vandalizing chruches.

And as far as getting references to the 10 commandments removed -- it ain't just the atheists. Don't forget about those who follow paths other than the Abrahamic religions. Even many Christians and Jews agree that the 10 commandments ought not to be displayed.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Gewis]

I'm LDS myself, and while I of course disagree with your view of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, this new religion isn't the most successful, at least not in terms of size of membership. The Seventh-Day Adventists were started in 1849 (LDS Church was started in 1830) and recently reached 13 million people (LDS Church has near 12 million). Pentecostal Christianity was started in Topeka, Kansas, in 1901, and now claims about 450 million members worldwide (150 million in Africa). The Assemblies of God have about 35 million members, and they started in 1914, also in Topeka. Of course, it doesn't bother me that much. Nothing about prophecies concerning the last days said that Christ's church was going to be in a majority. :)

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[k96822]

You're not in the minority here, it's just exasperating to deal with the tongue-lashing we get if we say anything pro-religion. Heck, I've had people try to steer threads into religion just to try and debunk the thread, even if the connection between the thread and religion is really thin.

It is fascinating to see self-proclaimed athiests talk about science being their god. Science proves the existence of God (a supreme creator) at every corner. Every new discovery validates more and more how beautiful and intricate the universe is. There are architects that lay the foundations of man's institutions on earth who are powerful indeed, but they can never approach the glory of God, no matter what they force-feed their cattle.

I think a lot of people are bitter because a nun slapped them on the knuckles too many times in Catholic school or something. Man corrupts things and the church is built by man. These corruptions do not invalidate the existence of God, they just validate that man needs guidance more than ever.

The latest election shows how people really think. These self-proclaimed intellectuals just like to shout loud so that they seem more numerous than they are.

You are in the silent majority, even on /.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[blurryrunner]

I think that it is difficult to to draw clear line on what would qualify people as "crackpots." Its like trying to decide who is insane. I think that we call them insane because they are significantly different to us. They are a small minority and act in a way that is incomprehensible to us.

Society has determined that things like murder are fundamentally wrong. Its generally accepted, but do we really know that death is terrible? What if there is a life after this that is so incredible that we are actually doing people favors by killing them? (I don't actually believe this, but it's some thing that we could be wrong about).

As time goes on and as people start ignoring things like morals, society will degrade until we are back to the stone age. You may disagree, but then again that is just opinion.

Really, as it turns out people all live some sort of religion. Some don't recognize being agnostic or atheist as its own religion, but it is. It is riddled with its own beliefs and doctrine. None of it has any more proof of truth than any other form of belief.

So to deal with this we have a system here in the United States that deals with majorities (like Christians) and minorities so that each has their rights preserved. For the most part majorities get their way (that's democracy) and so the standard for morality is set by them. But minorities have the opportunity to be able to speak and make impacts to influence the majority (hence the importance of free speech).

But we can't have every minority wielding huge influence otherwise we will end up with laws permitting murder. Of course the majority isn't perfect either. But you have to remember that the premise of democracy is that the majority is usually right as long as they are well informed. Of course this isn't a true democracy but a representative democracy...

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[ignorant_newbie]

Nope - but telling people in AIDS-stricken regions that using condoms is a sin... not so cool.

especially when this is simply the opinion of the church... not the opinion of god.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[LurkerXXX]

And if someone gets AIDs through a blood transfusion/needle-stick/some-other-means, their spouse should obviously be happy to die from it, because wearing a condom to prevent transmission would be a sin. Brilliant.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Troy]

I'm sorry, but I own the trademark rights to the words "inane" and "lawsuit". Lucky for you I have very generous liscening terms that will keep you out of court.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[d34thm0nk3y]

And as far as getting references to the 10 commandments removed -- it ain't just the atheists. Don't forget about those who follow paths other than the Abrahamic religions. Even many Christians and Jews agree that the 10 commandments ought not to be displayed.

Why would you post a list of "laws" you are not legally required to follow in a house of secular law?

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[mikael]

The very nature of astrology implies that the universe is a giant machine and that it determines your attributes. The placements of planets A, B, and C indicate that I have attribute X.


Astrologers believe their is some mystical relationship between the positions of the planets, sun aand the future of someone born at that particular point in time.

A favorite example is a clock in a railway station. There is no direct physical connection between the position of the hands of the clock and departing trains but there is a relationship set by a higher intelligence (in this case the timetable set by the rail company).

Raise this line of thought to the astrological level, with train timetables being replaced by planetary almanacs, then there is the conclusion that being born at different times leads you to different paths in life.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[falcon5768]

A good thing for you to watch would be Penn and Tellers Bulshit, in particular the episode they did on "alternative meds"

Basically debases every single point you brought up but to summerize it for you.

Any remedes that the drug companies see any benifit in become the startingpoint for new meds. Your tea is a perfect example as two companies at this moment now are infact looking into it and have been for some time.

Most "alternatives" are completly bullshit and have no basis whatsoever to make their claims.

Worse some can even cause serious harm or even death.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Austerity Empowers]

It is not banned in TX wholesale. My understanding, which is not complete as I don't have kids yet, is that each "ISD" (Independent School District?) has the power to set its own curriculum. Mine seems to teach both, I find this to be a horrible failure in society (that and the fact that PE is taught more rigorously than math, at least here). Creationism is not science, period.

I'm finding there are 2 types of Texans, one I dislike a lot, and the other I like a lot. The neo-con lunatic is the kind I can't abide, but I'm finding these are not natives, they seem to be imported. The other kind of Texan is the gun toting, fuck government, don't tax me, if-I-want-to-kill-myself-being-stupid-let-me kind. I like them a lot and I did not find this in either California or anywhere in the north east.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Mauz]

Uhm, right. Got a nasty cut and want it to heal quickly with very littl scaring? Go to the local chemist and get some betadine or generic knock-off of the same. Then head over to the grocer and get some confectioners (powdered) sugar. Mix the two into a goopy syrup and apply to said wound. Total cost per treatment is very, very little but the results are pretty damn impressive. (Yes, the person can't be alergic to iodine.) My parents (both docs) used this in Mexico and learned it from a doctor who worked in Africa. Now, try and get this simple recipe published to general public or endorsed by any company out there. Good luck.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[KlomDark]

Toothbrushes REDUCE, not ELIMINATE the amount of stinky scum growing on your nasty teeth. The amount by which they reduce is not usually specified.

And your logic is what? We would all be better off if we stopped brushing/stopped using condoms?

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[jonbryce]

In England, there is no direct relationship between the position of the hands of the clock and the departing trains[1] whether caused by a higher intelligence or otherwise.

[1] What departing trains? I don't know.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Pete]

[ snip re: Randi experiment with handing a bunch of students the same horoscope ]

In that case, it wasn't a full chart, done correctly.

And yet a significant proportion of the students said that the horoscope matched them. This is the entire point - that it wasn't a genuine horoscope, but people believed it fit them. It was written in horoscope style - full of vague waffle that could fit just about anyone. And of course people will generally remember the hits and ignore the misses. It's just human nature - and professional con-artists are very well aware of how to take advantage of human nature.

I have brought up the topic with several psychics (about Randi's reward), and most have the same attitude: He can believe what he wants, what he thinks is not their problem, and it's not worth THEIR effort to play his game. Most people I know in this field don't worry about pay, and the ones that do it full time are paying for their needs and not more. Maybe it's hard for some to understand, but many feel there is more to life than money or materialism.

Wow. Just.... wow.

And you seriously just accept that? The notion that, for a very small expenditure of time on their part, they could walk away with one million dollars.... one million dollars that they could donate to any charity in the world (if they weren't interested in the money themselves)... and yet they say they're not interested?

Bullshit. Sheer undiluted bullshit.

Oh, and by the way - I can turn invisible and fly through the air. I just don't feel like demonstrating it to anyone, not even for money. You see, money's not that important to me, so that's why I make my living working an eight-to-six office job. So... what do you mean, I'm talking crap?? Don't be so close-minded!

Just out of interest, why don't you ask your psychic pals exactly how much money would have to be offered to make it worth their while? Ten million? A hundred million? A billion? Ten billion? If they just keep saying that "it's not worth their effort"... at some point you just have to realise that it's bullshit.

If that sounds funny to you, then look at yourself. What are you doing? Could you apply effort elsewhere and be much more wealthy than you now? If so, why don't you? Why not be rich instead of doing what you do now?

If I could earn (cue Dr Evil voice) "one meeeellion dollars" simply by demonstrating an ability I possess, you can bloody well be certain that I'd do it.

The reason your "psychic" acquaintances don't take up the Randi challenge is because they know it's incredibly unlikely that they'd pass, and it'd be an embarrassing waste of time for them... though I suspect the embarrassment factor would be the biggest component.

Maybe it's too hard for you to detach from your preconceived notions and be objective.

Pot, meet kettle.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick.

If your psychic acquaintances had any genuine abilities, they shouldn't disappear just because they're faced with a sceptic. The reality is that very few "psychics" have enough faith in their own abilities to put them to a genuine test.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[TopShelf]

I don't agree that it was a disgruntled Christian that ripped it off - it was an envious Linus user

So does Torvalds actually come over and help users out? I don't care much about OS's, but I sure do have a bunch of landscaping and home repairs jobs that could use attention...

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Princeofcups]

> You may "have a solid background in psychology", but you don't understand what 'cold reading' is.
> Cold reading does NOT depend on meeting the victim before hand, or even knowing anything about
> them before hand. That would be 'hot reading'.
From Wikipedia: "Generally, the cold reader will
> make a series of vague statements, will observe the subject's reactions, and then will refine the
> original statements according to those reactions"..."even without prior knowledge of a
> person, a psychic could still obtain a great deal of his subject's history by carefully
> analysing his or her look and other background information, such as gender, religion, race,
> education level and place of origin."

I was a physics major in college and I read tarot cards for fun. Go figure. :-) Tarot is fun because you have lots of symbols to build your reading.

I tell the person for whom I am doing the reading that Tarot cannot tell the future, and that it is a game. I have gotten pretty good at cold reading, and even after telling them it is fake, I have had many people amazed at the accuracy of the reading. Even after telling them that it is fake, they still want to believe that it is real. I call it fun with random numbers.

jfs

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[gauge boson]

I suggest you blow up Earth and speed up our process to go to Mars.

Yeah, and get cracking - geocide is hard work!

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Fished]

However, I see and hear the reverse all the time. Happened to my wife (back when she was just my girlfriend). She had a pro Wicca bumper sticker and some god nut busted her windshield and wrote nasty stuff on her car with a magic marker, stuff along the lines that they should bring back witch burning. Kind and wonderful people, they are.

I'll make you a deal: you don't compare me to such "God Nuts" -- i.e. some teenager on a fling who thought it would be fun to divert the blame to Christians -- and I won't compare you to some of the great atheists of history ... like Stalin or Mao. On the other hand, you give Christianity some credit for the Mother Theresa's, Wilberforces, Martin Luther Kings, and Saints Frances, and I'll let you have J.S. Mill and the like.

The sad thing about sick minds is that they can pervert any belief system. That's not the fault of the belief system, that's the fault of the minds.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[aiabx]

What scientific alternatives to evolution are there? It's like looking for a scientific alternative to gravity. No one has seriously supported alternatives to evolution for decades. Now, if you want to say there is controversy about the mechanisms, or different evolutionary paths, I could buy that, but there are no (at this time) credible scientific alternatives to evolution. The alternatives are all religious ones, no matter how they try to disguise the language, and they do not belong in science class.
-aiabx

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Twanfox]

I'm sure it was meant to have punctuation. Something like:

On the other hand, you realize that a Linux fish is essentially a mobile insult against their religious expression, which is their right to express, as is your mockery.

Something akin to the statement 'They have a right to express their religion. You have a right to express your mockery of their religion.' It doesn't include anything about vandalism.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[smooth wombat]

There are three parts to a theory: observation, prediction and testing. ID only meets one of the three; observation.

ID does not make any testable predictions (how do you test for a supreme being?) and as a result cannot be considered a theory. In fact, those who support ID go out of their way to show the flaws of Darwins theory but never show why ID is better.

It's not about logic. It's about the scientific process which requires facts to validate or invalidate a theory. No such proof is ever given by the ID side.

This whole argument is useless since Darwins theory has been shown to be the correct one thanks to both horses and birds. In both cases these animals evolved from other animals. In the case of horses the fossil evidence (see, there's that proof I'm talking about) shows that horses were not always horses. They are descended from creatures roughly the size of a large dog and can in no way be considered a horse.

As far as birds are concerned the proof, while not absolute, is all but confirmed especially in light of this article (which was rejected for submission) which describes how the bone of a T. Rex was examined and found to have a similar structure to only one living relative: female birds who had just ovulated.

Combine the above information with the overall skeletal structure of birds with those of T. Rex (and other dinosaurs), throw in archaeopteryx and you have another link in the chain.

Remember, nowhere does Darwin say that all creatures must have evolved from other forms. He only says that creatures may evolve. Since both horses, and to a large extent, birds have been shown to have evolved from other creatures, the theory has been proven to be correct. Even leaving out birds gives one such proof of the theory and one is all you need.

The issue isn't about using logic, it's about people wanting to believe that somehow we're unique. That there is a reason for our existence. The idea that we're born, live and die just like the billions of other creatures on this planet is too much for their egos to take. They need to find a reason for their existence. If that reason is religion, so be it. Just don't try to masquerade religion for science.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Rasta Prefect]

Science proves the existence of God (a supreme creator) at every corner. Every new discovery validates more and more how beautiful and intricate the universe is.

Why does beauty or complexity have to indicate the presence of a divine creator? Quite a lot of complexity has shown to arise naturally without intervention being necessary, provided a source of energy.

The latest election shows how people really think. These self-proclaimed intellectuals just like to shout loud so that they seem more numerous than they are.

Congratulations. An essentially war-time president running on a campaign of fear barely managed to edge out the pathetic loser the democrats chose. A mop and bucket with a face drawn on it would have had as much leadership potential as Kerry. If thats going to be the bar for how the "people really think" maybe you should go check out Bush's current approval ratings.

You are in the silent majority, even on /.

The lurkers support me in email!

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Dirtside]

No, that's a terrible idea. Real "Loser pays"-type systems usually have the judge deciding who pays how much, based on things like, was this a reasonable action (even if you didn't win), did you introduce frivolous motions just to waste time and money, etc.

Pure loser-pays systems are no better than the status quo, because then small individuals daren't ever risk suing large organizations, because if they lose, they may end up owing millions in legal fees (since the big company can spend that much without breaking a sweat). You might say, "Well if they lose, then it was obviously a frivolous lawsuit," but that's plainly not true either.

Re:The Russian court has got see reason, here.

[Trogre]

You're thinking of Catholocism, which has certain areas of overlap with Christianity, but in no way is representative of it.

Condoms do provide limited protection from HIV and a handful of the other dozens of STDs out there, but kind of like a hitman using lead-free bullets, they don't actually fix the problem.

The real cause is a culture that encourages massive sexual promiscuity. Myths are perpetuated across the african continent such as the belief that shagging a virgin will cure a man of HIV, of course exacerbating the problem.

That, my friends, is the sin.

Somebody needs to step out of the middle ages...

[afd8856]

Although I'm an east european myself, I hate "irrational beliefs", especially when they lead to ridiculous lawsuits.

How good an astrologer is she?

[FunWithHeadlines]

"She earlier told the paper that the experiment would "deform her horoscope."

Oh, and she didn't see this coming?

Re:How good an astrologer is she?

[xystren]

And how do we know it wasn't the "will of the universe" to have a probe smashed into this particular comment.

Then again, how do we know it's not the will of the universe for her to open up some Pandoras Box of silly lawsuits?

Then again, how do we know it's not the will of the universe to have Pandoras Box opened to have silly lawsuits run rampant?


Then again.... DAMN!!! I'm trying to get to a:
.....
PROFIT!

DAMN DAMN! Maybe I should have been a lawyer. -+[shaking head]+-

Xyst

Re:How good an astrologer is she?

[HD Webdev]

Oh, and she didn't see this coming?

Of course not.

Slashdot has much better mediums than she is.

For instance, I'm currently visualizing a duplicate of this story coming in the near future.

That's not the only lawsuit

[arc.light]

It appears the inhabitants of Tempel-1 are lawsuit-happy as well.

We need a price

[inu_maru]

for the most moronic suit of the week

NASA's next probe

[dave-tx]

NASA's reply to Marina Bai: "Would you be happier if our next probe was smashed into Uranus?"

Re:NASA's next probe

[PhilHibbs]

They're going to name it "Urectum" to avoid all the silly jokes.

Waaa.

[say__10]

I wish NASA would be as cynical as I am in their response. "Are you going to cry about it?" Then proceed to blow chunks out of 10 or 15 more comets, to show them who is boss.

Re:Waaa.

[barawn]

an shy-looking astronomer was interviewed and she said something to the effect of "you know, that experiment is sort of interesting, but we regret this "american buckaroo-style" (sic) way of doing space research, as a probe that could land and latch on the comet, then drill and study things would have done a better job for not much more money."

Sorry. If that's what she honestly said (and meant), she's a loony.

1: It's not easy to land on a comet or asteroid. The gravity's quite weak, and not regular either. Especially as you don't know the composition or internal structure.

2: It's not like the comet was going to stay pristine. Comets travel through very harsh environments. It's unlikely that if we went back to Tempel I on its next orbit that we'd see the same surface features. There's no "preservation" really needed.

3: The impactor created an explosion equivalent to about 5 tons of TNT. That would've taken a lot of drilling, and it still would've only given localized information.

4: Finally, and most importantly, it's simply ludicrous to believe that this mission could've been replaced with one with a controlled, long duration landing probe for nearly equivalent money. We know very little about the surface of a comet. It's entirely possible had we tried to design a lander, we would've sent it there and then said "well, um, we found out all of its instruments are useless on comets!"

The other comment I've heard, from a friend who studies all kinds of space things, is that he hoped NASA picked their comet-target right, because they probably changed its trajectory in minute ways

Do the math. Any change in its orbit is unmeasurable. Comets are still very big - Tempel 1 is in the 10^13 kg range. The impactor was 370 kg. Relative velocity was 10 km/s. That means you're talking about a delta-V in the neighborhood of a tenth of a micron per second.

It's just completely and totally pointless.

Re:Waaa.

[Darth Daver]

Wow! Those are two of the most ignorant comments I have heard, and you actually ended up defending both of them.

The first is typical of American-bashing that comes from mindless, spineless Euro-snobs. Everything done by Americans is bad. This comet is 83 million miles away and travelling at an enormous velocity, but this anonymous super-genius could land a gentle probe on it "for not much more money". That explains the stunningly successful European mission that did just that.

The second comment from your friend who studies these things seems at odds with the endless comments about how we lack the technology to prevent a comet or asteroid from colliding with the Earth. The largest atomic weapons could not budge an asteroid in time, we are told. It is already too late for us, and yet, this rather insignificant probe can alter the course of this comet enough to cause a collision over such vast distances. In that case, why don't we launch another probe or two to swat it away?

Then you were modded up as informative by the same nitwit teenagers who endlessly bash organized religion, with enough bile to fill the Pacific ocean.

I'm going to sue this Russian bimbo for $300 million for causing me such morale outrage.

Re:Waaa.

[Phil Karn]

That astronomer really ought to learn some orbital mechanics. The closing speed between the comet and the Deep Impact probe was about 10 km/sec. Soft landing the probe on the comet would have required an equal amount of delta-V from a rocket engine to match the comet's velocity. 10 km/sec is roughly earth escape velocity, so we're talking about a landing rocket roughly equal in size to the one that launched it from earth!

Comets tend to have oddball orbits, often highly inclined to the ecliptic, that can make them very hard to reach because of the required delta-V. Tempel's inclination is only 10 degrees, which is probably one of the reasons it was chosen for this mission.

In any event, it's far easier and cheaper to crash into a given celestial body than it is to rendezvous and land on it. And in this case, an impact was highly desirable since it represented an easy way to expose and study the material deep below the surface.

Robotic exploration of objects in the solar system generally follows a pattern of first flying by an object, then "hard" landings (impacts that destroy the spacecraft), then orbiting it, and then landing on it. That's exactly how the moon was explored; I'm old enough to remember the Ranger series of spacecraft that hit the moon in the mid 1960s, leading the way to Lunar Orbiter, Surveyor (robotic soft landings) and eventually Apollo.

If the body has an atmosphere, then air drag (heatshields and parachutes) can be used to convert a hard landing into a soft one, but the moon, comets and asteroids don't have atmospheres.

I expect somebody someday will figure out the intricate gravity assists that would be required to rendezvous with a carefully chosen comet and match its velocity. But you have to crawl before you can walk, and Deep Impact did an excellent job of that. Remember also that Deep Impact is a Discovery mission, which means it has to make the most of every dollar spent. It very clearly did that too.

She should have been able to predict it

[tomhudson]

Fucking moron astrologers.

I predict she will lose!

Don't claim to tell me my future when you can't even tell me what I had for breakfast. Wanna really impress me? Buy the winning lottery ticket. Over. And Over. And Over.

Well then

[epiphani]

That settles it! I'm going ahead with my lawsuit against slashdot. I've never gotten a first post, and its fucked up my chi.

Bit silly

[lilmouse]

NASA should charge this nut for deftly moving the comet a milimeter from its original course, thus saving his love-life from complete misery.

OTOH, I'm glad to see the Russians finally learning to do things the American Way (i.e., sue the pants off everyone).

--LWM

Re:Bit silly

[tomhudson]

OTOH, I'm glad to see the Russians finally learning to do things the American Way (i.e., sue the pants off everyone).

No, it only means we're going to get more russian spam like this:

Subject: Y0u4 FR33 V4C4T10N IS R34DY

How I Made $$$$ by SUING NASA.

Comrade, I am writing you with this GREAT BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY. Surely you must have heard about the astrologer who sued NASA for wrecking her horoscope?

Remember all those rumours of the SPACE SHUTTLE LAUNCHES CHANGING THE CLIMATE? You too can sue NASA for all the costs you've run into, such as having to buy air conditioners, an outdoor pool, and vacations to cooler lcimes.

Think of it. Who wouldn't want a FREE SWIMMING POOL?

Don't be like the last person who rejected this offer, and had a chunk of SPACE DEBRIS kill their family dog (or if you do, remember to CALL US so we can GET YOU COMPENSATION).

Deewey, Cheetum, and Howe, LLP
1-888-BUT-PLUG

I should sue them, too

[daniil]

After all, they did just alter my fate. If a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane, then who knows what consequences this change of Universal order might have!

Her morals are suffering?

[squiggleslash]

What, exactly, are "moral sufferings"? When your sense of values is in some way damaged?

Is this why she's suing? Because, thanks to NASA, she doesn't have any morals, and therefore is absolutely fine with the idea of frivolous lawsuits?

Is this what happened to Jeffrey Vernon Merkey too?

I know, I know (raises hand)

[squarefish]

She needs to be beaten with a clue by four

Far reaching aspects of this case

[ReformedExCon]

The woman is suing the government for depriving her of her ability to make an income in her current profession. Her allegation is that the government (through NASA) has fundamentally shifted the course of celestial bodies with the impact and that she is entitled to monetary recompense.

This is so similar to how the record companies are fighting tooth and nail to stop people from changing the RIAA's business model.

Is someone entitled to make a living? Should the government be in the business of putting people out of work?

Re:Far reaching aspects of this case

[jusdisgi]

The woman is suing the government for depriving her of her ability to make an income in her current profession.

Bullshit.

Changing the course of a celestial body in no way deprives this person of her livelihood. She's supposed to read the movements of the stars, right? Ok, so this was one of them. We, humans, products of the universe, make changes to it just like stars and planets exert their own forces on comets. An astrologer should be reading the movements, not complaining about them being made.

Now, naturally, since she's just making this shit up anyway, what it really amounts to is an increase in her ability to make income; she can call all her clients up and say "You must come in immediately for a new reading, as NASA has just fucked up the heavens." and dupe these poor sons of bitches yet again. And if anybody thinks this lady is up to anything but a (successful) publicity stunt, you're way off base.

Also, in more direct conflict of the parent statement:

1)TFA doesn't say she's suing them for loss-of-business damages, but "moral sufferings" ....you just made that up.
2)300 million? How long would it have taken her to earn that much? Because that's what the damages would be determined by if the cause of action was what you claim. It isn't.

Cost analysis

[TripMaster Monkey]

From TFA:

Marina Bai has sued the U.S. space agency, claiming the Deep Impact probe that punched a crater into the comet Tempel 1 late Sunday "ruins the natural balance of forces in the universe"
Bai is seeking damages totaling $300 million -- the approximate equivalent of the mission's cost -- for her "moral sufferings"

So...the cost of ruining the 'natural balance of forces in the universe' is $300 mil US. Wonder how she arrived at that figure...could we see a breakdown?

Re:Cost analysis

[kryzx]

Actually I believe this figure is accurate. Since it cost about $300M (+/- $100M) for Anakin to "restore balance to the force", the figure in the lawsuit is roughly the amount required to repair the damage.

But will she use it to make the repairs, or spend it on vodka, lottery tickets and incense?

Not the first

[Crashmarik]

A few years ago a psychic in florida sued a MRI facility. Her claim was that the MRI had robbed her of her psychic abilities.

Re:Not the first

[Chris Mattern]

> A few years ago a psychic in florida sued a MRI facility. Her claim was that the MRI had robbed her
> of her psychic abilities.

According to her lawyer, "She had no idea this would happen."

Chris Mattern

Violent americans up to no good again!

[bani]

You infidel aggressors are simply not content to bomb afghanistan and iraq!

American aggressors are now bombing innocent comets!

What do you think you will find, WMD or oil in Tempel I? Stupid USA!

NASA should go back to doing what it does best, making fake moon landings!

Re:Violent americans up to no good again!

[ChillyWillie]

NASA should go back to doing what it does best, making fake moon landings!

Ahhh, but they did! This was a fake comet smashing!

Everyone knows Gee Dubya just released this fake news story and pictures to distract the public from knowing he's taking stupid pills.

Your Daily Horoscope

[BorisSkratchunkov]

You may be persecuted by American space agencies today, dear Libra. However, despite your "moral sufferings" you will be able to gain great fortune from friends, family, and coworkers. Embrace your lawyers, Libra, for they will save you from the unnatural entropy of the universe caused by space probe crashes!

Counter sue.

[LWATCDR]

If this goes through I will counter sue for one billion dollars. The damage to my karma this will cause will be HUGE. I mean it. I will be so mad at this woman that my aura will never be the same. I could end up coming back as a rat or worse fan of Ayn Rand or some other low form of life.
What amount of money would be enough to make up for this eternal setback? A billion would be a good start.

On a more reasonable note. You can sue anyone for anything. It is nothing but a stunt.

Deform?

[Viking Coder]

She earlier told the paper that the experiment would "deform her horoscope."

NASA: Okay - how's about this - we spend all the money required to create a new horoscope, which incorporates the changes we made to the "fabric of the universe", and has just as much predictive power as your old horoscope.

Total price: $0.

Studying astronomy instead of astrology: Priceless.

For bullshit predictions based on the position of the planets at the moment of your birth, there's Madame Marina Bai. For everything else there's NASA.

Let it proceed...

[moz25]

I'm certainly interested in seeing such a case appear in court. Usually, charlatans such as these take care to avoid independent scrutiny and measurability. To let it appear before court would place her in the position of having to prove the had any abilities to begin with... and that's going to work against her the most. At least, I'm guessing the judge is going to be a lot more emotionally independent than her clients who probably have an emotional interest in believing in her abilities.

Besides, she has 1 million dollars waiting for her if she can prove she has paranormal abilities

Re:Let it proceed...

[Flyboy Connor]

Ah yes, so now the woman has to show in court that astrology really works -- which she can't, of course. Unfortunately, her answer will be that the fact that it doesn't work validates her claim: NASA changed the universe so that she cannot really predict anything anymore. And of course she will bring in a string of witnesses who will claim that her predictions before this date were faultless.

Re:Let it proceed...

[moz25]

You're right, that is probably how a charlatan like her would argue. But, even if she succeeds in proving that astrology worked before, she would still need to prove that the same astrology is no longer going to work at all as the result of 1 comet impact.

With other words: in order for her to prove her claim, she has to prove that astrology from now on is false and that all astrologers following the same method will fail to reach "true" conclusions. It actually seems in the interest of other astrologers for this case to never go to court.

Re:Lets fire lawyers at the rock next time?

[Anonymous Coward]

Careful, man. The rest of the universe would see that for what it is- the Earthlings firing weapons of mass litigation out into free space.

Such barbaric acts of open hostility would not be tolerated by the Universal Counsel. The Arashongon battle fleet would surely arrive to pulverize the Earth in short order!

Astrologers are morons anyway

[Pope]

The whole Zodiac system was made up 2000 years ago, on the idea that your 'sign' was the one that the sun rose into on your birthday. At the present time, the Earth has precessed something like 15 degrees, so the sun actually rises 1 sign away from where it originally did. (thanks Bill Nye!)

Fuck these goddamn superstitious idiots anyway, we left the caves a long time ago.

Re:Astrologers are morons anyway

[Temkin]

Not only this, but for some parts of some months the Sun is in non-Zodiac constellations. I have a cousin that's an Ophiuchan...

Re:Astrologers are morons anyway

[PxM]

A modified table is here. I wonder if I can sue newspapers for discrimination because they don't include my starsign in their predictions.

Re:Lets fire lawyers at the rock next time?

[Shadow Wrought]

What do you call shooting 100 lawyers at a comet from a space probe?
A good start.

The best thing about Lwayer jokes? Easily adaptable to any circumstance;-)

sure, why not.

[supernova87a]

I say that if she, while blindfolded and away from any source of news, could have told the authorities the exact instant the impact occurred, and supposedly changed all the "energy fields" and "balance of the universe", by all means, let her lawsuit be heard!

Defense

[retinaburn]

Defense Lawyer: Your honour, if you let this case proceed our court systems will be flooded with inane frivolous lawsuits, and the number of lawyers in our country will rise exponentially. As proof I would like to enter into Evident Exhibit A, the United States legal system.

Judge: Case Dismissed!

NASA's dark secret...

[NotQuiteReal]

The REAL reason they popped that comet, was to improve the Feng-shui of the local celestial neighborhood.

Horoscope for 4 - 10 juli

[Bromrrrrr]

The lawsuit you will start this week will be lost. Also you will be the laughing stock of the world.

*sigh* damn space probe......

Right...

[kingj02]

And I'm going to sue Bill Gates b/c of these. They've been haunting my dreams for a while now!

In the Stars

[Doc Ruby]

She should have seen this turn of events coming.

Re:Somebody needs to step out of the middle ages..

[Number6.2]

Get your ass in gear then, and sic a werewolf or a vampire on this lady! What good is an "irrational belief" if it does you no good!

"Sorry, her irrational belief was torn to shreds by a delusional thought!"

Poetic Justice, I say! Hell, Justice for ALL POETS!

--
My mom is only forgetful sometimes. Does that mean she has Somezheimers?
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey
--
Stirring the pot since 19 mumblty mumble...
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

Re:Lets fire lawyers at the rock next time?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think US judges should be given encouragement to laugh in the faces of morons who bring court cases like this, and to charge them costs big time to put them off pulling such pathetic stunts.

you miss the important irony in this...

all US judges were .... wait for it..... Lawyers.

if you think that any judge would go against the money machine that got them where they are then you are very silly.

Judges are no more "honarable" than a lawyer, becaus ethey were lawyers. and THIS is one of the biggest problems in the American justice system

A test of the Russian Courts

[Gyorg_Lavode]

This is really a test of the Russian courts. I know many large foreign (to Russia) companies do not want to work in Russia as they fear frivilous lawsuits losing them money as Russian courts hand it to the locals simply because they enjoy profiting.

Should this case not receive the honest critic of its validity that it should get, I can see Russian courts becoming basically ignored on the world scale. Why bother defending yourself if you can't win? You might as well lose and just let them try to collect.

Re:A point of clarification

[symbolic]

People who believe in astrology don't do so because of logic.

People who believe in anything that isn't objectively verifiable, do not believe because of logic. This includes religious belief, since it is, by definition, faith-based. Faith is not rational or logical- it is merely a manner in which we choose to structure our worldview.

Job Security- sounds smart to me!

[xtermin8]

I think its the paying customers that you should criticize for not thinking clearly, not the astrologers themselves. I confronted an "astrologer" with the same facts you mention, and she explained that's the reason she keeps up on the latst astronomy news, and why people need professionals like her, rather than try to do astrology themselves.

Re:Lets fire lawyers at the rock next time?

[Zordak]

Hold on there, cowboy. If you're going to post idiotic rants, at least be sure to toss in an inane "W is dumb-leyou" rant and blame the MPAA somehow. Sure, maybe you got lucky this time, but not every moronic brain fart gets "+5, Insightful" without those two essential elements.

Seriously, without the huge surplus lawyer-mountain in the US, crazy shit like this wouldnt be an option.

In an open court system, any moron can file a suit against anybody for anything. The story did not say that the Russian (did we miss that tiny detail in our rush to post "Insightful" word vomit about how lawyers are teh 5uX0r?) court had granted the lady summary judgment or anything. It just said that she filed it. If you really want to see how easy it is, go down to your local court house and file an action against the ABA and its Russian equivalent, and in your "Prayer for Relief," ask the judge to shoot all of the lawyers at a Comet. If you pay the fee, you are free to file your stupid, frivolous lawsuit (and maybe it will even make Slashdot). It will be dismissed and...

I think US judges should be given encouragement to laugh in the faces of morons who bring court cases like this, and to charge them costs big time to put them off pulling such pathetic stunts.

...there's a good chance you will be fined under Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure or a state equivalent (depending on where you file). Speaking of pathetic, could we call it slightly pathetic that you are, in response to a Russian lawsuit, angrily crying for U.S. judges to have a power that they already have and exercise? Honestly, can people not even be bothered to read the one-paragraph summary anymore?

Gives me an Idea

[mackil]

I should sue my city of origin for light pollution. Just think of the moral suffering resulting from that abomination if your friendly neighborhood astrologist can't get an accurate reading. Oh the humanity! Class action anyone?

Here we go again...

[J'raxis]

Here are some of the facts involved in the famous McDonald's coffee lawsuit. That particular lawsuit was not an example of a frivolous lawsuit; there are plenty of others, but that isn't one.

Friend who studies all kind of space things?

[rbarreira]

The other comment I've heard, from a friend who studies all kinds of space things, is that he hoped NASA picked their comet-target right, because they probably changed its trajectory in minute ways, and it could come back to haunt us if it happens to be cyclical with a very long period, and NASA didn't know about it, and it came back with something that looks like a collision course in the future.

Tell that friend who "studies all kind of space things" to study some logic and probabilities too. Since all calculations done show that the comet isn't expected to impact Earth neither with the previous nor with the new trajectory, the probability that we have made it crash Earth in a few million years is the same that we have avoided a future crash.

Breaking News

[Peter_Pork]

In an unprecedented prank, NASA engineers sent capsule with astrologer and her lawyer towards Mercury. Her parents sued over the suffering endured by her daughter while sharing the tiny capsule with a lawyer. "Ok, I must admit that part was not nice", said a nerdy NASA engineer. Oddly enough, this "astral trip" was part of a previous settlement...

That's the part I find funny

[mcc]

It's not like the comet was going to stay pristine. Comets travel through very harsh environments

Yup. If you'll look here, you'll see an image that the impact probe captured on approach. That is, before it hit the comet.

Notice something rather distinctive about that comet?

It's covered in impact craters already

Re:That's the part I find funny

[HarvardAce]

It's covered in impact craters already

So who beat NASA to the punch? Aliens? The Russians?

This makes no sense

[Junior J. Junior III]

Any real astrologer knows that the courts are not the proper channel for such disputes. The correct procedure for redress of these complaints is for the astrologer to put a curse on NASA. And then, when NASA begs forgiveness, she can dictate her terms to them.

Why don't people use the established channels the way they were intended to be used anymore???

I just don't get it.

[eheldreth]

IANAL so could someone who is explain to me how someone from another country can sue NASA. I mean it seems to me the only athourity NASA is bound by would be the US government. It's a little like complaining about Germeny because they violate West Virginia state law by letting 16 year olds drink beer.

Remember, they're a persucuted minority

[Pac]

Surrounded by atheist barbarians who want to force their children into gay marriages, perform mandatory abortions on their pregnant daughters and burn all bibles in the libraries. You can never stop watching for those barbarians, else you will wake up to find 24 hours porn programming on all TV stations. With a bare-breasted Janet Jackson doing the weather.

Re:Remember, they're a persucuted minority

[DavidHumus]

...else you will wake up to find 24 hours porn programming on all TV stations. With a bare-breasted Janet Jackson doing the weather.

and this is a bad thing because...?

yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

you would have thought that she saw that coming.

It depends on who you sue

[TrashGod]

If she'd sued the Russian space agency, she'd already be in the gulag. Going after NASA? Now, that has potential.

Coming soon: All your spacecraft are belong to us!

same old crap

[milktoastman]

Are you trolling, or do you just have your head in the clouds? This is the same old, tired, generic testimonial defense of faith healing and astrology I always see. No one doubts the power of placebo in alleviating symptoms of illness, but I've never seen any well-documented results indicating that faith healing really helps anyone. Nor have I seen anything compelling about astrology. An astrologer describing people who may come into your life--or even describing people who are known to you--well, that's pretty subjective all around and there are ways to sound specific and "dead on" without really having to be so. I mean, most normal people fluctuate in their personalities from day to day, and most of us have a few bad traits as well as good. So, if you describe someone as basically good but with the concession that there are few negative aspects to the person, you're generally right. As for YOUR comments...why don't YOU get specific in describing your so-called compelling experiences that lead you to believe in some of this faith healing/astrology BS? You sound as generic as every horoscope I've come across. And, btw, I don't really care if I'm being rude or not. I've been polite to people with dumb ass beliefs for so long and I'm tired of walking on eggshells with you people (and what do I mean by "you people"?). I'm tired of having to respect your naivete because you are so sickeningly spiritual and have such a sensitive world view that to disagree causes you such spiritual agony. I hate it when I try to talk sense with the New Age people I know and they pull that passive agressive "oh you cause me such pain and concern because you are headed down such a spiritually destructive path and I will go pray for you I hope you realize what a burden your attitude is on ME" crap...ah, hell with it, you're probably a troll anyway. Why bother?

Intolerance is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Tolerance brought 'creation science' to our schools. While everyone get's all tolerant and PC, the religous right has consolidated a tremendous amount of power. I doubt there are many religions that wouldn't legislate their beliefs into law, given a chance. They are now getting lots of chances.

Tolerance has to end somewhere. For me, we've pretty much reached that point. If people want to believe in the supernatural (astrology, gods, devils, telekinesis, etc.) fine. When they get public with it, I mean to belittle them. The definition of supernatural I'm using is Oxford sense 1.

I've tried tolerance for half a century. That's all done.

Re:Intolerance is the way to go

[ApewithGun]

....For example there is no room for tolerance as far as violating constitutional rights relating to religious tolerance. I'm not well informed on this, but I think that the founding fathers would seriously disapprove of banning all religion from public school....

________

Would these be the same Founding Fathers who decreed that black people were 3/5ths of a white person? You know the ones I'm talking about...they forgot to outlaw slavery in those original documents too.

And what religion would they disapprove of being removed from schools? Christianity? Sorry but a religion that decrees that I must kill my neighbor if he works on the Sabbath and also also fails to condemm slavery has no place in schools.

The Founding Fathers put together a remarkable country and are to be commended for it but we really need to get away from this idea that we should operate today by what the Founding Fathers intended.

Just my $.02

Re:A point of clarification

[Dr. Evil]

You can't apply logic to faith, because logic is a form of faith. Logic will always supercede other faiths if they're analyzed logically, just like logic will always be superceded by religion, if explored religiously.

Whether you fundamentally believe that logic means something or if you fundamentally belive that your existance means something is just as much a leap of faith.

Religion and logic don't necessarily disclude one another, but for those who belive in both, the order of which supercedes which might determine whether they're agnostic or if they're religious.

Nobody move

[zihamesh]

Moving around on the earth's surface will shift its centre of gravity. This in turn will move its gravitational field, which will subtly alter the orbits of everything in the universe. So unless you also want to be sued by this crazy babushka, I suggest that you stay very very still. come to think of it, even breathing would be a bad idea.

Question

[connah0047]

Question: If man can screw it up, what kind of god/power/higher knowledge is she serving anyway? Not too powerful, eh?

Re:McDonald's lawsuit was completely frivolous

[d34thm0nk3y]

Hmm... What do you call it when you are warned that your coffee is dangerously hot by the state safety officials but you decide to go ahead and do it anyway because it allows you to squeeze out more juice per grind?

Negligence maybe?

Re:McDonald's lawsuit was completely frivolous

[egjertse]

During the time leading up to the suit, McDonald's sold more than 10 cups of coffee at that temperature. There were only 700 burn incidents.

So, on average each customer burned himself 70 times on the same cup of coffee? Damn...

Nasa Reps?

[Chubby_C]

FTA: "NASA representatives in Russia could not be reached for comment on the case" My guess is they were too busy laughing their asses off at this suit

NEYT!

[TiggertheMad]

IN COMMUNIST RUSSIA, THE COMMET SMASHES-

Dear god, I can't go through with it. The one place where the stupid joke might actually belong, too.

Re:NEYT!

[da3dAlus]

"Dear god, I can't go through with it. The one place where the stupid joke might actually belong, too."

Because in Soviet Russia, punchline beats YOU!

Yeah...almost doesn't seem worth it...*sigh*

Re:A point of clarification

[flibuste]

>> Like quarks ... where's the objective verification

In the Large Hadron Collider you will find the answer. Here or here or a more wider search

>>What about the hadron boot-strap? Branes?

Not sure what you mean about boot-strap, but as for the Hadron family, look for..."Large Hadron Collider"

You may not SEE them, but evidences are conclusive enough. When experiences match theory closely, it holds proof of existence.

>Branes

Branes..ah! Branes...Wait for the next version of the LHC. We'll know if it's just theory or not in a few years, so hold your breath! Even more! The Higgs boson might give up to the LHC and show up at last (he's the one supposedly responsible for giving its mass to a particle - so it's somewhat a big deal). And the nice thing is that, since it's theory (again), we'll soon be fixed on wherever it exists or not. If not, other theories will try to explain mass and will be tested. Until we find out.

>>I think we take a lot on faith without realising it. Much of that is based on someone elses faith too!

That is where your mistake is. Science is not faith-based but fact-based. Faith has no room in the scientific process. Confidence in one's experiments or theory is only confidence and has to be tested to be considered valid.

>>And I don't see Occam's razor as being a logical method.

The Occam's razor is not a method for conducting science, it is a simple thought and a guidance as to where to look at: the most simplest explanation is the first you should consider. It assumes (generally rightfully) that nature takes the shortest paths. As do humans. But again, it is not a method - at all.

ARGH!

[changa]

*Beats head against desk after reading article*

Re:McDonald's lawsuit was completely frivolous

[blueg3]

You don't comment on the severity of the burn incidents. 700 people is not always an excellent record. Statistically or no, it's not everyone. It's 700 in (whatever you meant by 10). Often a small number of injuries out of a large pool of people can be cause for concern. (Many major news stories about "dangers of X" have many, many fewer than 700 incidences behind them.)

I don't know where you get that the temperature, which was not too much below boiling, is the recommended optimum serving temperature for coffee. Recommended by whom, McDonalds? Not surprising! The reason the coffee was that hot is that it is what McDonald's felt was the optimum storage temperature. Coffee should be made with very hot water, not stored for long, and served at a temperature where one can safely drink it. The latter was certainly not true of this coffee.

The plantiff did not intentionally dump coffee on herself to cause injury. Thus your use of "endeavor" is misleading (as is "dump"). Just because she spilled coffee on herself does not mean McDonald's had no part in causing her burns.

Clearly you are not a lawyer.

Re:A point of clarification

[|/|/|||]

Everything we know about the universe is based on assumptions. Assuming that the universe follows logical rules, assuming that we can trust our senses (to at least a small degree), etc.

This isn't faith, because you don't forget that it's based on an assumption. Science isn't about absolute truth, it's about coming up with a usable model. Maybe Quarks "really exist," and maybe they don't. They're part of our model. No matter how much experimental evidence we have, and no matter how beautifully our model clicks together, there will never be any reason to believe that quarks exist. It may be useful to assume that they exist, but that's not belief.

Sure, you can believe in quarks if you want to, but I think that's a foolish way to create your worldview.

No, no, no!

[wantobe]

Logic does NOT exist outside of the human mind. "Logic" is a human construct based on properties of the physical universe as we know it, and as we understand them. Logic doesn't exist outside of the human mind anymore than language or the laws of nature exist outside of the human mind.

Re:McDonald's lawsuit was completely frivolous

[swv3752]

Precariously balance a cup of liquid in your lap while driving a car. The odds of you spilling are so disproportionately high, that one can rightfully claim you are endeavoring to spill.

In the MacDonald's case, the plaintiff was found by the jury to be partially at fault. MacDonalds did serve thier coffee too hot, but the plaintiff was an idiot to balance the coffee in her lap.

Re:A point of clarification

[Princeofcups]

> Religion and logic don't necessarily disclude one another, but for those who belive in both, the order
> of which supercedes which might determine whether they're agnostic or if they're religious.

Religion may be logical, but it is based on flawed principles. It is very easy to show the problems with the basic principles, and the rest comes crumbling down. I am referring to religion having any bearing on the physical world, e.g. creationism. Leave it in the spiritual realm where it belongs and you won't have any problems.

jfs

Can I sue someone...

[qualico]

...for sueing NASA and causing me stress about how this will change their budget due to lawsuits and possibly cause cancellation of missions?

Re:Yeah

[His Shadow]

That would be in order to avoid the bombing and state-sponsored terrorism the US directly or indirectly supports. Thye have the odd notion that maybe if they are in actually in the US, the US won't try to kill them.

-1: Oh, please.

[Just Some Guy]

Big Pharma has no motivation to prove the medicinal value of anything they cannot patent.

Two deadly flaws with your idea:

1. Even if they can't patent dandelions, they can certainly patent a method of distilling their active ingredients into standardized dosages. See also: willow bark vs. aspirin. You are perfectly free to make your own willow bark tea, but the vast majority of the population would rather buy a bottle of fungible tablets.
2. Your use of "Big Pharma" seems to imply that if Pfizer doesn't do the research, then no one else will either. In reality, Generic University Research Center would be thrilled to fund the Nobel prize drive of a few promising scientists. Wouldn't you like to be the professor who cures cancer with dandelions and becomes the next Hooke, Koch, or Salk - or if you're a management type, to be the guy who was signing their paychecks when they did it?

"Alternative" medicine is an oxymoron. Something is biologically active or it's not, which is also why homeopathy doesn't really exist except on the labels of tiny bottles of very expensive water.

Re:McDonald's lawsuit was completely frivolous

[blueg3]

The coffee spilled while she was removing the lid, as a passenger in a stopped car, in an attempt to add cream and sugar -- something very common among coffee drinkers. While many jurors did not originally feel that the case was warranted, after seeing the evidence, they were particularly struck by McDonald's callousness in the case. The plaintiff received third-degree burns on 6% of her body as a consequence of the spilled coffee and initally requested compensation for her medical bills, which for such extensive burns are significant. McDonald's knew that the risk existed, as they served their coffee very hot. They'd seen cases of this happening before (from first to third degree burns), settling out of court but not changing their policies.

As a long-time coffee drinker, I frequently have a cup of coffee in the car. It spills. But third-degree burns are not part of any rational person's expectations of the consequences of spilled coffee. If you're going to serve something that carries that sort of danger -- one beyond normal expectations for the product -- to a place where it's well-known that spills will occur, at the very least there should be clear warnings. Maybe you disagree, but twelve people who actually listed to all the facts (and were not predisposed one way or the other) didn't.

Of course, now you often can't get McDonald's coffee that's hot enough and they put warnings on their cups, which isn't necessary (though to do otherwise may make them guilty of not protecting their stockholders). So it seems silly in retrospect, as the beverage is just as hot as you'd expect, but with warnings. Still, warnings never hurt anyone.

Tort Reform

[Zancarius]

To fix this, you should have a law liek Canada's where the loser pays the legal bills for both sides in a law suit. This ensure frivilous law suits have to think twice. While a suit with a legitimate chance of suceeding won't be unduly impeded.

It's called tort reform (AFAIK) and nearly every nation I can think of (Australia, UK, Canada) has it, save for the United States. Being that we're a nation whose legislative processes are governed almost exclusively by the interests of lawyers, it's no wonder we'll likely never see such an animal.

Re:A point of clarification

[servognome]

Science is not faith-based but fact-based. Faith has no room in the scientific process.

A certain degree of faith is included in the scientific process. Science and religion both share the common root of philosophy. The difference between religion and science is religion is based on blind faith, science is based on tempered faith.

When you drop a rock, you believe it will fall. This belief is based on huge amounts of historical evidence. However, science doesn't actually dictate what will happen to the rock, it merely gives a reasonable prediction based on our knowledge. One of the biggest mistakes people make in science is to say we observe X because of theory Y, because theory doesn't dictate behavior. All we can say is we observe X, which is consistant with the prediction of theory Y.

Faith also gives birth to our new ideas. Einstein's faith that the universe neither expanded nor contracted led him to create the cosmological constant. Even the idea that we somehow can explain the behavior of the universe is based in faith. Since we can't know everything, we must make assumptions. In the absence of knowledge all we have is faith.

Scientists working on string theory do so because of faith. String theory is unfalsifiable, and it explains no known phenomenon that isn't already explained by another theory. I would argue string theory right now sits in the same ballpark as creationism. The difference is that those working on string theory will reformulate if they have conflicting observations. While creationists will tend to dismiss or give alternate explainations on conflicting observations.

Yesterday's thread

[CapnGrunge]

Here. Dupes are not just for articles anymore.