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Windows Interoperability in A Linux Distro
Magenta writes "There is a review of the Desktop OS Version 3 Business Edition from Xandros. This operating system is meant to allow users to easily move from Windows XP to Linux without the problems that can arise. Xandros not only can use Window's file system but it is able to run a great number of Windows programs using its CrossOver Office tool from CodeWeavers. This is one of the most accessible distros to come along in awhile and it marks a big step forward in the progress on Linux on the desktop."
This is a must for real end users(mom and dad) change to Linux.
Omar
It only encourages people to keep on using proprietary and closed Windows software instead of extolling the virtues of free software.
WineHQs game support has come on tremendously lately, it's not just for apps anymore.
You can FORGET IT until I get my minesweeper and solitaire.
oh, and calc. I so love calc.
** "It's not my job to stand between the people talking to me, and the ones listening to me." -- Pego the Jerk
Xandros' Windows functionality is OK for a demonstration. But its speed sucks for production environment.
BTW, Xandros isn't a pretty looking dektop. And, it is not FREE as in FREE BEER
The only question that comes to mind is:
When do these Windows compatibilites start to become security issues in Linux? I mean I am all for having some Windows apps run in Linux. The main reason I use Linux at home was because things like IE and other security ridden problems in Windows arent available in Linux.
Just my $.02
I hope Xandros arn't using the stock NTFS filesystem driver for Linux.
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The only way to get "reliable" NTFS Read/Write under Linux is to use the captive driver with NTFS.SYS from Windows.
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However, you may be in violation of your Windows EULA if you use it, and it's certainly not something that is easy to set up.
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If you get it wrong (Or God forbid you let some automated script get it wrong you!) you can say goodbye to your data.
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Writing any data to an NTFS partition with anything other than Windows is just asking for trouble.
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Don't do it!
Windows user: Linux, that's for programmers.
Linux user: Windows, that's for people who don't mind crashing computers.
W: But Linux has no good programs
L: This is not true my friend, and you can run Windows programs using Crossover Office.
W: Yee of little faith now changes name to Linux user 2.
Go to the w3.org and put Slashdot.org through the validator.
From Crossover's website:
CrossOver Office currently supports more than 30 of the most popular windows productivity applications
Well, that's quite an acheivement but 30 productivity apps isn't "a vast number of Windows programs".
The original posting overstates the abilities of Xandros.
Crossover office is a product you can buy and install on most Linux distros. It's a nicely patched up and packaged version of Wine.
As for being able to access Windows filesystems, the Linux kernel contains drivers for FAT, FAT32 and NTFS. I would be very suprised if this distro can write to NTFS safely as this is something that is still being worked on.
Does it run Li... oh...wait... it IS linux. Gotcha.
Nobodies Prefect
Tidbits for Techs Technology Blog
Yeah, but can you build a Beowulf cluster with this? Is it free? As in speech? As in beer? It it easy enough to use with beer? Lots of beer? Can you build a Beerwulf cluster to automatically distribute beer to the drinkers most ready for a refill? Can you do all that in Japan?
Linux should focus more on becoming user-friendly so it gets a bigger customer base, this would inspire more developers to include a Linux version of the more popular games/ apps. My 2cents.
This simple thing is lost on most everyone in Linux it seems some days.
Does Tux Racer alone not suggest good gaming is possible on Linux? Do increasingly better drivers for nVidia and ATI not sink in?
Oh, that's right. The problem is user-friendliness which is the antithesis of the leet geek brigades who search out things to do because they're hard and prove how smart they are.
I got tired of writing in hex in my head when I was a teen. I just want stuff to work. XP and FC3 for me for now while I wait for the Linux equivalent of XP to hit... And wait...
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
"Supported" means that if it doesn't run, you get tech support. It also means they will continue to run properly in future versions. There are plenty of other apps that are unsupported which work fine though.
not to mention that Transgaming's Cedega runs all the games the parent mentioned...
"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
Lets say that it succeeds and you get a few hundred thousand moms and pops pulled over to Linux to run their Windows apps on this distro.
That is a few hundred thousand people who will eventually run into application support issues, driver issues, printing issues etc that they won't be able to turn to friends for help with.
That is a few hundred thousand people who will tell their friends that they tried Linux and it sucked.
The Linux community needs to concentrate on driver support, end user support and encouraging developers to migrate native applications to the platform. Anything else is just inviting failure.
First off , This is great that they have had the fore sight to include the drivers to read and write NTFS .It is also very nice that they have included code weavers cross over office.This is great for getting some people to switch to linux , shame they didn't include cedega as well , which could of really completed the package , though this is a business edition.
.)
But credit where credit is due , the article summary makes it seem like Xandros was responsible for these things.http://www.codeweavers.com/ code weaver site , responsible of Crossover office and naturally a link to wine on which Cross over office is based http://www.winehq.com/.
A link to the linux NTFS project http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ (I assume this is the driver they are using , correct me if I'm wrong)
(Cross over office is a great product , It also has a rather pleasant installer in my experience.So you don't need to switch distros
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
They are only offering the features of the Crossover plugin for 30days, (after which I'm guessing you have to pay for the plugin) or lose all windows program compatibility...
Mind as well stick any other distro, and just get the Crossover Plugin...
It sounds like Xandros, with the help of Linspire, could really give Microsoft a run for its money. As Linux becomes more easy to use, I think it is more likely that Linux will take market share away from Windows than Mac. Why buy a new computer for a new OS when you can install a new OS on the computer you already have?
Import all Windows application-specific settings & data into Linux applications (so user will stop using Windows ones).
e.g. Outlook accounts & mails => Thunderbird
MS Office language preference, templates => OpenOffice.org
Internet Explorer bookmarks => Firefox (if multiple Windows browsers are detected, ask user which one should be used as source)
has anyone tried this with Photoshop?? it does say that it runs, but I want to know wether or not its worth it.. is it fast? can you use ANY windows app or ANY part of the CS ??? Maybe i'll just install Debian or Gentoo then use the Codeweaver's software..
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
All the game makers need to do is use SDL and make a few other adjustments, and the game will be cross-platform. It's not terribly difficult. Most developers don't need all the shiny new features of Direct3D.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
..to become "user friendly" on the desktop is not paved with emulation of Microsoft's software.
This is a step in the wrong direction. How will the native software for Linux improve if the people who are migrating are still using Microsoft Office?
Linux should focus more on becoming user-friendly so it gets a bigger customer base
I have a non-negotiable arrangement now that friends / family / etc only get my computer support ("Help, the mouse isn't working" stuff) if they're running Linux. Windows users get the Linux installation offer or nothing.
Who cares about useability? It's ease of maintenance for the local IT guru that really matters to Linux uptake.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
linux shouldn't work towards supporting games. Linux shouldn't go towards being transparently windows compatible. It should do its thing. Apparently, "its thing" is an organic, each person pulls to his own side, process. But it's working. Linux won't die out all of a sudden because you can't play battlefield 2. It won't die out because program x or y won't run. It was meant as an experiment, as a learning process for the brand new Intel 80386. Just because everybody seems to want to use linux nowadays doesn't mean that linux should fit everybody's uses. Those people should adapt it to their own uses, which is what the source is there for.
Wow, what a tremendously dumb comment.
/. mods to mod the parent insightful.
So here we have a linux distro that according to the review is very easy to use and on top off that even offers the possibility to run many Windows programs out of the box.
Now what does the average slashbot have to say to that?
But I want to run my Windows(tm) games. As long as my Windows(tm) games don't work on linux, linux isn't for me.
Finally, as if this comment hadn't been dumb enough, he tells us that linux has to become more user-friendly in order to gain more market share, so that more games will be available for linux.
The funny thing is that just before that he told us that linux wouldn't gain any market share even with a userfriendly distribution (remember the review?) that runs many windows programs out of the box, because he couldn't play Everquest on it.
Needless to say that it only took seconds for the famed
Impressive...
because it was part of the post entitled "Review of Consumer-Friendly Linux Distro" http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/05/07/29/2139202.s html?tid=106
But anyone with an interest looked at their heavily linked off that review story on Xandros already, this is not news, it is a month old review that was made prior to that last linux distro review show by them here on slashdot.
Well, that's quite an acheivement but 30 productivity apps isn't "a vast number of Windows programs".
Thirty is vastly more than most people actually
use productively.
About 28 more, to be precise.
I find it annoying when people say linux isn't ready for the desktop, or their mom and dad couldn't use linux. Compared to Windows, Linux is harder for "mom and dad" to break. Most of my family uses Windows. They are constantly needing help with their computers. I could set up a Debian Desktop for them that they couldn't break and would do everything they need a computer to do. If they had any probs, I could SSH in and fix it at a command line in no time. There are a few Distro's that try to make it easy for Windows users to migrate. These distro's tend to break nearly as easy as Windows. I tried Xandros and felt that the package selection was a little limited. They also basically just renamed some of the programs and gave it different icons and such. It is based on Debian so that, to me, is a plus. Compared to vanilla Debian though it seems lacking to me. Linux is my Desktop. How can it not be ready?
Beer! It's what's for breakfast!
I am not a MS basher, therefore this post will be scored accordingly
You have confused "people ignore me because they are close-minded!" with "people ignore me because I say idiotic things!"
What came first of the chicken and the egg? The vendors won't release games for Linux because the userbase isn't big enough and the userbase won't switch to Linux because the lack of games.. Overgeneralisation, but the point is still there. The same goes for everything you said. I've had numerous problems with a wireless card. It wouldn't work with prism54 and with ndiswrapper it just stayed up for a short while. Yeah, it's up to my vendor to create drivers for it, but guess what, most users aren't even going to go through the hassels I did in getting it to work, let alone contact anyone to complain on the lack of drivers. They will simply shrug, blame it on Linux and give up. And I intentionally said "Linux" and no specific OS because that's the way they will attack it, I tried if 3 distros before I got it to "work".
...than this review to understand the challenge of deploying Linux as a desktop replacement.
The reviewer lists as a "Con" the fact that it has "No Gnome". Now, why exactly would a company that is trying to make a desktop replacement work seamlessly find some moronic need to include BOTH KDE and Gnome support? Does anyone really think that having two GUIs really enhances useability? It may enhance something, but it sure doens't enhance "ease of use".
Reviews of desktop Windows replacements that include the Con of "No Gnome" should not be respected. Clearly the reviewer doesn't get it. The rest of the conclusions should be discounted acordingly.
The real problem is hardware thats not compatable out the box, most people will give up. I've run Mandrake for 2 months no problems (However took a year to get hardware sorted) until a couple weeks back when the computer moved upstairs and I added a wifi card. Its either Windows with its problems (not saying Linux is perfect, merely Linux's short comings don't affect my use of the computer) and net access, or Linux and no internet.
Untill hardware is supportted (And by no means is the *nix developers fault), it'll fail to get a foot hold.
And no, I'm not Linux savvy, I just know UT2004 gets more frames per sec in mandrake (Mandriva, silly, silly name) than XP2 and looks just as good to me, and firefox seems a little more responsive, not to mention CGI scripts/php in apache worked better than apache in windows. And thats what matters to me.
"I may be full of crap about this game, and I may be wrong, and that's fine." -Jack Thompson
On their downloads page, there is a link for the Open Circulation edition. Completely gratis if you use bittorrent. I'm considering trying it here at work.
"This is one of the most accessible distros to come along in awhile and it marks a big step forward in the progress on Linux on the desktop"
.. text files and environment variables or even recompile them to get them to run ?
The majority of users have simple, finite needs. They want to be able to browse the net, check Email, chat with friends on IM networks, play music and view pictures, and write documents using Word. Occasionally, they want to play games.
Let's assume there is a Desktop Environment / Operation System that allows them to do all that:
o easily
o virus/trojan/spyware free
o through a gorgeous UI
o crash-free
We can easily exclude Windows from the list. Linux doesn't suffer from viruses / worms but does suffer from everything else. That leaves Mac OS-X. It may not be 100% crash-free but everything else is a given on this platform.
So, how does this Xandros edition make things better for those users? It simply introduces more windows problems to the already flawed Linux desktop experience.
Sure, it allows you to 'easily' run some windows applications directly. But is this really the way to go for making Linux more acceptable by the majority of users?
How about bridging the differences between the various DEs ( KDE, Gnome.. ) ? How about realizing all linux users are necessarily programming/systems gurus or wannabes ? Or even providing some nice, complete applications that don't require you to mess with
Hopefully, order will prevail the Linux 'anarchy' and something good will come out of all those fine efforts.
Technology ramblings : Simple is Beautiful
Going through the review it was sounding pretty cool. However, as I looked at it more closely and checked out the screen shots I (as a loyal /.er) became outraged!
The whole UI just looks like a rip off other other UIs and tiny tweaks and of course the blatant rip-off of NTFS from another OS! I know others must be sharing my dismay at how a product is so blatantly coping others!
...oh wait. Its Linux you say. Awsome! This is just what we need! ROCK ON!
Never. If you find the Windows compatibility risky you can turn it off and use the secure, reliable, extensible, sensible Linux underneath.
The next question would probably be: Does it run Windows?
... they want their "Linux ready for the desktop really, really soon now! With only 45 minutes of XFree86Config-hacking it is also now really easy for the average user!"-story back.
Time for Microsoft to implement a new "innovative" filesystem type that is 'unfortunately' not compatible with previous Windows XP filesystem types.
Embrace.
Enhance.
Exterminate.
And they said zombies weren't real!
Great! Now we can get less than 1% of windows applications to run for only a little more than 50% of the price of windows!
FYI. Cedega doesn't run Everquest 2.
World of Warcraft is apparently considered extremely playable. Unfortunately as is common with the Transgaming stuff that still means that the installer crashes (but has finished when it does), the graphic glitches in places and performance is lousy in some situations without a special hack. Overall it is a way to get to play games, but it is hardly the most user-friendly solution there is.
What does Linux offer me other than faggotty freaks who wear pocket protectors?
Well, you could always install Linux on a spare couple of partitions and find out. I really can't answer the question for you, because I don't know what your specific needs are. Go on, dip your toe in the pool. That's what distros like this are good for.
Nah, thanks. I'll stick with Windows along with the rest of the RELEVANT world.
Okay. I hope it works out for you.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Xandros is meant to be a typical business os where things Just Work [tm], are simple and user friendly.
These distributions are much better off supporting only ONE desktop solution. The prime target of Xandros doesn't know what GNOME or KDE is, they just want to get their work done. Xandros chose KDE, which is not a bad choice, and did a good job integrating it.
Confusing the issue with two very different ways of using your computer is just not a good idea. It is better to completely integrate one solution.
This is also why Ubuntu should stick to one user interface with their official distribution, and leave KDE to the more unofficial Kubuntu.
For the more technical users / companies, there is always Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake, Slackware, Gentoo, Debian, etc.
I can't really see what's different between this and major distribution from a commercial entity. I run SUSE 9.3 and it's got everything but crossover office (and Wine is fine for most tasks).
So:
- Four-click install with automatic disk partitioning [SUSE's just about got it]
- Industry-leading hardware detection & configuration [SUSE's got it]
- A single control center for all your settings [SUSE and many distros have got it]
- Shield your files from prying eyes with automatic home folder encryption [ok, it's not automatic in SUSE or most distros, but do you really want your mom and dad to encrypt their files?]
- Acquire images through the USB scanner support [sounds like most distros]
- Support for new nVidia and ATI PCI-Express video cards [sounds like nVidia and ATI]
- Recursively change properties of files in selected sub-directories [Sounds like Konqueror]
- New! Synchronize your system clock with a network time server [Holy shit, computers do this...wow what a novel idea]
- Xandros File Manager [ie konqueror]
- Xandros Disc Burner [ie k3b]
- Full server-accessed Windows networking [ie samba]
- StarOffice 7 with full commercial support [too cool for open office]
- Special Xandros edition of CodeWeavers CrossOver Office 3.0.1 [don't see the major advantages over a well setup version of wine]
- Xandros Networks updates [sounds like most distros]
- Get notified of updates immediately with the Xandros Networks panel applet [sounds like many distros]
- Startup and Trouble-shooting Guide [weee!]
- 380 page User Guide (PDF with download version) [sounds like they cheaped out...SUSE still gives you two solid books in addition to the PDFs].
- Access to a huge inventory of free Linux software [ie the Internet]
- 90 days e-mail installation technical support [ie we don't want you to call and talk to us, oh yeah and screw you that you may have hosed your system when ntfsresize failed and now you can't get online]
The idea that making Linux more compatible with Windows will make it "more ready for the desktop" is just plain wrongheaded. Linux as it stands is more than ready for the desktop. I use Debian on my desktop at home, and have never needed to boot into Windows to get anything done. Neither has my far-from-technophile wife. I actually find Debian to be much more user friendly than Windows and have been able to show several nontechnical people how to use it without problems (once it is set up and installed). Sure, people might miss the ability to play their favorite first-person-shooter, and openoffice.org or the gnome office tools might take a little getting used to for a Windows user, but this is a minor (and passing) inconvenience. The general feeling I get that making Linux act like Windows will make it ready for the desktop just makes me scratch my head in wonder. Are you all idiots? Linux is better than Windows. That's the whole point. Why try to make it act like an inferior system? Why even bother switching to Linux at all if you're just going to turn it into a poorly behaving Windows wannabe?
What? That is simply not true!!!
Watch how fast the local IT guru is out of business because his customers now have systems that don't need maintenance, at least not enough to warrant hiring somebody to do it. Ease of maintenance is an IT-job killer. If it's so easy, who the hell needs an IT guy?
I have never used Xandros, but are you implying installing linux on a Fat32 filesystem? Why would I want to use a filesystem that does not provide for permissions? If your just talking about mounting and accessing it, what distro doesn't? Every single dual boot system I have ever installed (Suse, Mandrake, RedHat, Fedora etc.) has detected and mounted the existing windows partition. My USB thumbrive mounts automatically in Fedora Core 4, it uses windows format. The only thing I really see different about Xandros is Codeweavers which I already have. I really don't see anything truly revolutionary here. Don't get me wrong I like linux but if you have seen one KDE/Gnome desktop you've seen them all. Every week a new screenshot gallery showing the same tired pictures of KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice etc makes it's rounds on all the linux sites. The only thing to me that has really made things easier recently is the move to Synaptic, APT, Yum, URPMI, Click & Run etc. But again they all do basically the same thing, some better than others but nothing earth shattering. What is so much better about Xandros that would make me want to dump PCLinuxOS? If your just trying to attract windows users, your going to have a hard time. Until Linux is pre-installed on Dell Desktops as a dual boot or cheaper option, your never going to get a windows user to switch.
"... I wait for the Linux equivalent of XP to hit...."
Prey there isn't an equivalent. You are asking that Linux distros use the same/similar EULA as Windows?! And the same/similar click I agree terms as Window's auto updates?! And the same/similar click I agree terms as Microsofts media player?! Have you read them? You should. They are *nasty* No thanks. I value my privacy and freedom.
My.. that sounds awfully like what SUSE Linux Office Desktop did over 2 years ago.
Do keep up.
i keep a 1 gig disk partition with Win98se for games and the occasional windows only app i need, but i disabled the network adapter in the Windows System config because i do not want or need windows to access the internet, i do not use windows very often anymore, i just stay booted in to Linux about 99% of the time...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
It's called WinFS (Windows File System). Fortunately, Microsoft couldn't get their act together in time for it to make Longhorn/Vista... whenever it's going to show up!
s p
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1640212,00.a
But, someday, somehow, MS will have a new, improved, and totally propritary file system to bedevil us with.
Steven
A quote from the Xandros website...Get full-featured Xandros for a fraction of the cost of Windows XP.
At $129 dollars per license...that's one helluva fraction!!!
Save your money! Use your fav linux distro and buy Crossover Pro for $75 bucks if you need that functionallity!
No there isn't. The bug in question was part of Windows 95, where a millisecond counter rolled over at 2**32-1.
I apologise if this looks like feeding a troll, but better this than stand by and let some innocent person believe these lies.
how many people use word because it has ... spellcheck?
Er, not you, for one, clearly!!
WHERE IS IT?!!! I CANT FIND IT!!!!!!
*falls onto knees planet of the apes-style*
the bastards, they blew it up!!!!
*breaks into tears*
Why wont someone please think of the children?!!!
Accept any challenge, No matter the odds.
I call BS. Computers aren't easy, and there is nothing out there today that makes them so. Windows is ill-mannered, Linux is complicated and can be ill-mannered. Computing today is complex, network computing even more so. It is currently possible to hide the complexity, but eventually the complexity rears its ugly head and you need someone to come along and fix things.
You've hit the problem right on the head! The users have come to expect (in the Windows world) that everything they buy that "fits" in their PC, will "work" in their PC, at the highest level of performance and optimization.
They've grown comfortable in their propritary softwareship. The problem here is that these same vendors are PROHIBITED (by contract in many cases) from opening up their APIs to non-Microsoft partners if they wish to continue to use the "Certified for Windows" stamp of approval on their hardware.
Do you go out to Sears, buy tires that "look like they'll fit", and then complain when you bring them home to find they don't fit on your Mini-Cooper? No, you find out what kind of hardware your Cooper takes, you bring those specs to Sears and you ask them which tires meet those specifications.
In Linux, since vendors refuse to support the hardware or software through proper drivers (ATI, NVidia, 3Com, etc.), you find out (via the Linux HCL) which hardware is supported by which vendors, and you support THOSE vendors with your wallet.
But I stand by my statements. None of this is a Linux problem. There is more than enough code, talent and time in the Free Software community to write perfected drivers for every single piece of hardware out there that fits in a computer (embedded, PC, workstation, server and mainframe). The problem is that the vendors don't provide docs or APIs, or the ones they DO provide are incorrect, false or just plain wrong.
Trust me, I've been on this side of the fence, working for a Linux company that 3Com approached to ask us to write drivers for their WinModem in Linux, because IBM insisted they "fix it" for their Thinkpad line of laptops (this was back in 2000/2001). 3Com assumed we could just write 100% compatible drivers in a WEEKEND and have a fully-debugged, functional equivalent of their Win32 WinModem driver shipped to them by Monday. No docs from them, no APIs, nothing more than a binary copy of their Win32 WinModem driver.
We insisted they give us docs or APIs or something, and what they gave us... and you'll love this (I still have a copy in my email archives), was a slightly-blurry digital picture of a whiteboard, where their engineers described how they "thought" the Linux version of their WinModem driver would work.
Needless to say, we laughed at them and told them to find someone else. They never did.
So the problem is NEVER on the Linux side when it comes to hardware not functioning properly.
progress on Linux on the desktop.
I sense a new wave of annoying "Ready for the desktop!" buzzword overloads by people who can't handle choice.
- Special Xandros edition of CodeWeavers CrossOver Office 3.0.1 [don't see the major advantages over a well setup version of wine]
Try telling that to your grandmother.... and clearly you've never used Crossover. It's quite nice, actually.
What on Earth...?! Are those really screenshots?!
Don't they know how to press Print Screen? (Yeah, it works on KDE too; go figure...)
I run Windows games under Linux (ubuntu) all the time...it's called Cedega. I didn't read through all the posts to see if anyone already mentioned this, so sorry if this is redundant.
I used Xandros a while ago. While not the most recent version, even back then I was amazed at how quickly I was able to get a very functional KDE Linux system.
While I applaud the community's efforts to continue making Linux more user friendly, something we need to realise is that regardless of how much work we do, there are always going to be the "ready for the desktop" idiots churning out one article after another about how Linux isn't acceptable purely because it isn't 100% identical to Windows. Because of that, I think developers ought to stick to making improvements where they think they need to be made, rather than being dictated to by the "ready for the desktop" morons. These people are generally MS-only drones who can't think for themselves and are going to reject anything that isn't Windows on principle, so we shouldn't worry about trying to please them, because apart from anything else, we're simply never going to.
The main reason why I hate the phrase "ready for the desktop" so much is because it is completely subjective. Wtf is "the desktop", anywayz?
In my many trials of setting up Linux systems, printing is the one area that seems to never function "straight out of the box".
What is the issue with being able to print from ANY of these distro's ? Is it a lack of drivers? A lack of manufacturers? What printer do I have to purchase to allow me to setup a network print system under Linux?
In Windows, all a user has to do is select and click OK. Under Linux, there is no such thing....and until there is, I have to stay with what allows the job to get done, regardless of how much I dislike the corporation.
You keep going until you die..."Me".
I agree. Advanced emulation will be the key for Linux, if it wants to have enough mainstream success to rival Windows as a serious home operating system. Someone should be able to buy an application with XP labeled on it, slap it into a Linux-based machine, and wham, it works. The foundation is there, all that is needed is some kind of complete compatibility with Windows no questions asked. Microsoft will probably try to crush this when it does occur (as it has tried to crush all innovation and competition in the past), but it will mark the turning point if it can be done. At this point there would nothing but a 100% pure incentive to switch away from Windows
I don't have SDL at my house, I use AOL.
*ducks*
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
The CrossOver inclusion is why I orginally purchased Xandros, but that's not what kept me as a customer. I stayed with it because it's easy and it works. Used CrossOver a few times early on mainly for the wife's stuff, but as she got more comfortable with Xandros and open source apps she uses CrossOver less and less.
The share drive with the windoze box works fine, but there can be problems trying to browse folders on the Xandros machine with large numbers of image files. Windows file explorer will stop responding, especially if you have thumbnails enabled. A minor inconvenience.
Only one real problem, that's getting the sound to work with the QuickTime player. It'll play the movie but not the sound. Haven't had time to piddle with trying to fix it.
Unless you need the VPN and client tools, the Deluxe version would work fine for most business applications.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
atleast linux lends a hand to windows users. unlike microsoft they tend to close everything to which dont have the MS logo.
A bit dated I suppose, but still relevant: http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=4419
While Cedega does run WoW, it doesn't run it very well; for example, there's a major issue going on right now where you can click on almost anything with your mouse. Even with a workaround (press 'v' in-game) there's still a problem looting corpses (and looting items like treasure chests). This problem has existed since 1.6 patch.
Xandros is actually developped in Ottawa, where I've lived for a few years. I goto the University of Waterloo and they've come to us looking for co-op students. A couple friends of mine got a job interview and pretty much all Xandros is is a 'commercialization' of linux, they take stuff like crossover, skype, cedega, etc and package it into their own distro, as well as make graphical frontends for linux stuff that already exists (that's pretty much what the co-op job was for). This means that pretty much anything they offer is already available to the linux community (though it may not be in FOSS form). This also means they'll support NTFS *WRITING* when the rest of the linux distros do. (A bit of googling shows that the partition resizer is a partitionmagic licensed binary)
There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
Every time a see a new Linux "desktop" that's better than before, it's the same old thing:
;)
1. A pretty run of the mill Linux distro
2. With KDE preferred over GNOME
3. WINE (usually CrossOver) is included
I could build something just as nice as Xandros using Gentoo. But, of course the point to Xandros is that it's all ready to go. Sort of. The real truth is that NO Linux distro will ever be "ready to go" out of the box for regular users because all Linux distros are made of multiple projects that have varying levels of issues.
The morons here on Slashdot always rail on about how Linux sucks because the video card setup in X Window System is always a pain. But... That has ZERO to do with Linux. It's an X Window System issue and they're finally working on those issues thanks to X.org not stifling development the way that XFree86.org did. X is a truly incredible system that was and still is way ahead of it's time.
Another thing the fools on Slashdot complain about is the "lack of applications". But again, this has nothing to do with Linux. It has to do with the fact that the distros come with nearly everything you'd ever need except for some highly customized and specialized business apps and of course games. The problem here is that new users dont quite understand that when they get a Linux distro, they get EVERYTHING. They're used to the concept of buying Windows and then having to buy every piece of software they need in addition to it. To be honest, I think in a few cases, you're dealing with people who are addicted to consuming and NEED to go to a store to get something otherwise they feel like they're missing something. It's a mindset and it needs to be overcome.
Finally, the retards of Slashdot go on about how Linux is "hard to use" when compared to Windows. Never for a moment considering just how hard it was to use Windows when they first started. There is a learning curve for ANY OS. If Linux was the first OS anyone was exposed to, moving to something else would be harder. The truth is that all *nix based OSes are actually VERY WELL thought out. The file system makes abundantly more sense than the flaky Windows layout. The C origins of the OS are very orderly. In general, it's nearly the perfect OS as opposed to the nastiness and confusion of Windows.
So with that, I bid you all good day.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Probably not. Who is going to switch?
1. People using XP aren't going to replace XP with this. After all, they already paid for XP so why pay for Xandros Desktop OS 3 Business Edition? At $129, it's not that cheap.
2. People comfortable with XP who are in the market for a new computer aren't going to go through the effort to find a great deal on a computer, buy the OS, install and configure the OS.
Think what you may, but Windows XP is now pretty secure. Use Firefox and Thunderbird, keep your AV up to date, and the biggest worry is the phishing scams. No OS can protect a user against being a sucker...
Well, look at that...they are not even listed in the Unofficial Transgaming Wiki which either means they are very new or not enough interest.
Harass the game developers about this (even though we know it's futile, but bug them anyway)
Maybe I should stop voting these games down in the voting process? naw =P
"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
hahaha you fucking A-holes save your mod points to rate someone a "Troll" for stating the truth?!?! It's comical how this happens when someone says ANYTHING against the grain of popularity. Same holds true for anti-Bush comments, the Rednecks really get stirred up and rally with their "Troll" mod points. Fucking sad, sorry lot.
You don't even need to go that far. Just encourage game developers (Id, Epic, Blizzard, etc.) that choose to program in OpenGL, or utilize other open standards, and the games port nearly flawlessly to Linux. Just have a look at UT2004, America's Army, and Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory. Get these engines into the hands of talented people like Ryan Gordon at http://icculus.org/ http://www.bluesnews.com/plans/477/, and you can see that it looks very promising. BTW, WoW works amazingly well using Wine alone.
Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!
http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/.
feh. stuff.
How come it is a big step forward to copy Windows? that's a step backwards for me. Open source was supposed to be a leader in innovation, not blindly copy commercial software. And the Windows GUI leaves a lot to be desired.
I'm currently on Mandriva, and I must say, if my parents need an OS when their Windows machine craps out (again), that will be what I'm installing. Everything works out of the box, and my parents are good enough web searchers that they'll be able to find what they need help on in a google search and on forums.
Even though unrelated, they are warming up to FOSS ever since I installed firefox on their system, so Linux will be simplier "pill to swallow" for them.
insert inflammatory anti-microsoft comment here
Troll? Mods go ahead and shove your heads back in the sand. Looks like the Linux police have been saving their mod-points up.
"Simplify, simplify, simplify!" Thoreau
"Concentrate on driver support..." are you kidding? As far as the "catch up" game of creating drivers AFTER hardware shows up on the market, often with no public chip docs, the kernel devs do a really good job. But by definition of "catch up" we can never be as good as other platforms until 3rd parties support us out of the box.
The reason we don't have supported 3rd party drivers is because Linux doesn't have the market share (yet) to warrant the OEMs supporting us.
The more people use Linux the more support we'll get.
Or, we could all just sit around "concentrating" on better driver support and user support.
As to end-user support... I've had good experiences with every Linux company and every lone developer I needed help from. As to "migrate native applications" to the platform, I assume you mean Office.
Yeah, you keep waiting for MS to port Office to Linux, something they've specifically said they won't do. I'm not going to hold my breath. There are good alternatives (OOo) and Word, Excel run just fine under Crossover.
The story we need to tell is that there are tens of thousands of applications at your fingertips at $0 cost when you use something like Debian GNU/Linux. The apps are here. Try a vanilla Windows install something. It comes with a browser, a media player, Write, notepad, a calculator, Solitaire and Hyperterm. Almost nothing, and what is there is, compared to FOSS solutions, mostly crap.
So we just need to build the user base to make the platform ubiquitous. Heck, end users may even need a geek to maintain their box for the time being, or at least do the initial install. I don't know about you, but the last time I checked that's the case even with Windows. I'm always getting hit up for free support from family members.
-- John.
I haven't had any trouble with printer sharing with ubuntu. Check out the forums: http://ubuntuforums.org/.
feh. stuff.
...and it installed without a hitch on three different laptops, which blew me away. However, I was trying to set it up for my girlfriend, and she needed wifi--and setting up wifi proved impossible. I tried three wifi devices--an Encore PCMCIA card based on the Ralink RT2500 chipset, a TwinMOS usb dongle, and a Dell TrueMobile 1180 usb adapter. I tried downloading drivers; I could only find the RT2500 and Xandros refused to compile it. I tried ndiswrapper on Win9x and Win2k/XP drivers, and nothing worked. Eventually I went back to XP.
I never got it, all these commercial linux distros are the same, as are open source onces. The commercial distributions just market and sell the current open source software, which has been the same for so long. There is Windows emulation through wine/crossover, OpenOffice, Samba, and Firefox. These are just companies trying to be like VALinux and use Linux as a cash cow. I think the open source community needs to unite, and stop trying to make their own distro's, and just become one and call it "Linux" then Vendors can sell Linux in it's own form. Linux needs to become the operating system, not just the Kernel.
Sig: I stole this sig.
For all the zealots who say that Xandros has a free Open Circulation edition, look at this comparison
m l
/. zealots don't say a WORD against it.
http://www.xandros.com/products/desktop_matrix.ht
Do you see where it says CD burning is limited to 4X speed? Do you also see where their CD/DVD burning utility doesn't offer DVD burning capability for free edition?
Their CD burning tool is nothing but K3B rebranded. So, they take a free OSS application, SCREW it & CRIPPLE it & even then the
Great.
As the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke don't fix it." Lets face it, Windows works fine. The days of Windows 9x kernel crashes are long gone. Sure there are bugs. All software has bugs. Sure it has secuirty holes. All systems do. In fact any system in use by more than 90% of the population will be exploited by some script kiddies or hackers. Thats just the way the cookie crumbles.
Lets, for the sake of argument, assume that tomorrow Linux takes over Windows on the desktop. So what will Linux do that Windows can't already do? Will it wash my car? Make a nice scrambled egg and bacon? Still has a web browser. Still has an email program. Still point and click. Someone will monopolize it at some point. If it's not Microsoft, it's Redhat or Xandros. What makes us all think that a company like Xandros or Suse or Redhat has our (the users) best interest at heart? Think this stuff is going to be free forever??? YEAH RIGHT!! Xandros is already charging over $100 for it's system. Same with Redhat and Suse. So where is the free folks? Only a matter of time before licensing fees are added. Think IBM invested tons of $$$ into the kernel cause they wanted to be nice? We don't live in Utopia! It's inevitable, someone or some company is going to make a S#$T Load Of Money.
Also, why is the open source community spending millions of hours duplicating an already successful system? Make something new! Linux is a great system. But why is a desktop so important? Perhaps the decision makers of Linux should focus on newer ways of doing things. Perhaps a desktop is not the way to go. I don't know about you but I got tired of icons. I'd like to be able to think about a file and have it open. Eventually (and perhaps not so far away in time) the desktop will not look anything like it does now. So why try to duplicate an already successful desktop system? So that a couple of geeks sitting in a Starbucks can having bragging rights? Apple already did the desktop thing on Unix and ya know what? It looks a helluva lot like Windows. Still has a browser, emailer and square shaped icons. Honestly, most people could care less about whether their system is using KDE, GNOME, Windows Explorer or Aqua. To me (and most people ) it's all the same. In my opinion, if Linux is to become more than just a platform to run Apache, MySQL and a couple of cell phones, I think Linux needs to innovate and not duplicate.
Sure, but you are missing is that the computer-using world has been distorted by Windows' dominance. Windows is what the majority of desktop users uses, so 'using computers' means 'using Windows'.
You may have found it better to use Linux, and better to train others without the albatross of Microsoft. But for those users without the benefit of a local Linux-experienced geek to help them out, a Windows-alike may be an easier way of exploring alternative OSes.
I actually agree with you in principle, but I meet people who call themselves developers and admin staff each and every single day and a lot of them have never bothered to even install a distro. They've heard of Linux, and that's about it. Now, I am no expert, nor am I a guru. But I've used Linux for the last 8 years now, and I still don't see a lot of people using it.
You would argue that trying to appeal to these people by mimicking Windows is a mistake. I would argue that the proof of this error isn't in yet. And anyway, this is just one effort among many. (Are any of them really working yet??)
If you were in Linspire's shoes (money, access to programmers and other resources, etc), what exactly would you do to help spread the word?
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
I really like that we have Xandros. It's a distro you can show and give those Windows people around you. But thinking of it as a real step forward for Linux in general on the desktop, just doesn't feel right. I dont' think a real step forward for Linux is being more and more Windows-like and Windows-mimicking and Windows-compatible and Windows-... you go on. It's nice to have distros ('cause Xandros isn't the only one you know) which can make Windows 6packs' transition easier, but it would be nice to think twice next time before saying such things.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Those two articles, while from the same people and talking about similar Linux Love, are not the same thing! The Friday one was about Linspire Five-OMG/WTF/BBQ!!!111!! and this is about Xandros Business Desktop. I must congratulate you on classic Slash non-RTFA.
Both were at XYZcomputing.com and irritated me by having too few words per page and too many pages. The worst crime was the lack of a Printer-friendly edition of the document so I could scroll at my own leisure.
Untill hardware is supportted (And by no means is the *nix developers fault), it'll fail to get a foot hold.
I don't see the problem: if you buy supported hardware, then Linux runs on it. If you buy it preinstalled, you don't even have to install it.
On the other hand, if you install Windows on unsupported hardware, you will run into problems, too. In fact, you'll run into problems with Windows even on supported hardware, since many drivers are highly Windows version specific.
To all of the complainers - have you tried Xandros? I have, along with Madrake (before it became Mandriva), SUSE, Ubuntu, and Fedora. Guess what? Xandros is easier to install and get to a usable state. I installed it on a laptop and 2 desktops. No problem. I had difficulties with SUSE, Mandrake, and Fedora. Different difficulties with each. Ubuntu installed fine. But then I had to install bits and pieces to get the distro to a usable state. Xandros - I only had to do one thing, and that was so that I could play DVDs.
Once a Linux distro is completely set up, mom and pop can use it with no problem. But the setup can be a bitch. Xandros - mom and pop can not only use it, but they can set it up, without help from their geek children.
Compatibility with MS Office? Yeah, that might be important to somebody who wants to use the damned thing today! You can install the OpenOffice suite, but there is a learning curve. If I am working on an assignment for work or school, I need to get it done now, not after I learn a new app. And, despite the hype, OOo is NOT 100% compatible with all of MS Office.
So, I give Xandros a thumbs up. Unfortunately, I just don't see them being popular enough to succeed big time.
I heard about Xandros a few months ago and decided to give it a go. I loaded it up in VMware and pretty impressed with what I saw, not for and advanced command line user point of view but more from a person who is likely to switch from Windows to Linux. This gave me an idea. I would switch my mother's operating system to Xandros and wait to see how long it took before she noticed. The switch went quite well and was relatively painless. After customizing the GUI to make it appear as close to a Windows installation as I could, I sat back and counted the minutes. It took my mother 4 days before she finally came to me and said, "Is there something different about my computer". All the functionality she was used to was intact and she was able to do many of the things that she currently does on her desktop. The only thing that I could not mimic was America Online. So for all those out there that think this is not a good thing for the linux community I disagree. This will increase numbers of conversion vastly and then we will have something more powerful on our side, majority.
Why would I want to pay $129 for a Linux distro that tries to emulate Windows when I can buy the current top-of-the-line version of Windows for $11 more?
*ducks*!!?...Where?...I don't see no ducks!
I was willing to spend the money to get the 60 days of "Support". On the second day I found what was (for me) an insurmountable printer problem... Basically, you couldn't set a top margin greater than one inch.
:(
I contacted them, and basically they said "Yup, we can duplicate that. It is a problem. We'll get back to you."
It's been over 80 days now; other than confirming the original report they haven't responded to *any* of my emails. As things are, I can't use this for what I bought it for, and am seeking a refund. But, they're based in Canada, and unless they stop "blanking" me I'm going to have to go via the Office of Fair Trading International & UK Liason...
The moral? If you can support it yourself, go for it, but if you think you may need support I'd suggest you look elsewhere.
I'm guessing that includes all Office Products, Entourage and Internet Explorer. That is just about the most anyone in a normal office uses.
What are the problems they are avoiding with this distribution?
:)
Moving from windows to linux takes some home work to find out what the user does on a system and identify an equivalent package under linux to do that job. Keeping a user with feet in both OSes does not do them any good. I recently moved a user from a Windows ME system to Linux. Their needs were modest. Took a few hours to build the system on a new harddrive and then save some files from the old system. They were up and running on linux the next day and have not had any problems so far.
By keeping old windows programs around with the complications of running them under crossoveroffice or wine just presents more problems IMHO. Taking the plunge will in general get a user productive in the new environment quicker than trying to ease them into it.
The real trick doing it this way is to do the work up front and clearly identify all the tasks that a user wants/needs to perform on a system. Clearly identify replacement applications then get the user off of windows. Even setting a system up for dual boot just prolongs the agony and makes the user have to figure out how to get things tranfered back and forth. Most mailing lists and forums are filled with people having problems dual booting.
Eliminate these problems by converting over completely. No more half measures.
It's no accident that wine has come a long for gaming and improved dramatically. Codeweavers is a for-profit, closed-source company but they rely on wine to make their product work and it was their plan all along to improve wine so even non-customers can use the great improvements they've given to it.
I think it's a great model of a closed-source company being an integral part of an open-source movement.
World Changing - News for Humans, Stuff about our planet
Nonsense. Those people know the limitations and also know they can dual boot for whatever they think they still need. They also know that their old Winblows partition sucked to begin with, that's why they are taking the time and trouble to use something else. More importantly, they know that the root of their problems under Winblows or Linux is Microsoft and their greedy upgrade train.
Xandros is not my favorite distribution for home users, Mepis is. Home users typically have fewer legacy applications to run and are ready for a clean break. Xandros is better in a business setting where people have invested in accounting and other software that they want to keep using without having to buy new versions of Winblows, etc. Xandros does, however, offer the Windows savant much to make them feel at home and is not a bad choice for such "power users".
Being able to run legacy software is not a bad idea. The ability to run old Winblows shite was critical to winning Munich. People understand when Winblows junk won't run. Chances are that it won't run on Vista either. Efforts to run old software that you bought and paid for are just another exercise of the four software freedoms.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Oh no! Someone said that Linux isn't far superior in every way! Mods, quick, mod him down as a troll for saying that Linux should focus more on gaming support! I mean, that MUST make him a troll!
Whomever is modding today needs a metal boot in their ass. Linux SHOULD focus more on the gaming side. Cedega doesn't run anything that I would like to run (like the games he mentioned) and most of the games that it does run don't even compete with the level of performance that I can get from using DirectX directly under Windows.
Better mod me down too because it is the truth.
I HAVE to run a handful of Windows applications, notably Word, Excel, Powerpoint, because they are the only ones that work 100% with the files customers send me. There is no way round this. Repeat, none.
And while I'm running these on Windows I'm not running Linux. And while I'm not running Linux I am not using ANY Linux applications.
And I'm sure as hell not going to run two computers.
Solution: let me run my essential Windows applications on Linux and I'll never boot up Windows again.
Simple, right?
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
Yes, and Microsoft's Remote Desktop Viewer for MacOS X doesn't "support" entering an IP in the address field, but it stills works just fine.
When did people start getting "supported" and "working" confused with each other? Did you seriously expect CrossOver Office to bend over backwards for you when your $10 1994 shareware app doesn't work right?
Comment of the year
More importantly, the kinds of applications that people "need" to run do work. Office, Outlook, IE and in house software will work. As in house software is 90% of what businesses pay people to write, you can say better than 90% of important winblows software will work. That's better than XP and Vista will give you. From a business perspective, Xandros has what you want. Only terminally closed junk like Autodesk and games will really give you trouble and those problems are overcome as mentioned above.
How do I know? These people told me, with step by step how-to instructions for Xandros migration, which included great Crossover Office, Win4lin, Wine and Dosbox instructions. Xandros makes it easy to migrate without losing email, contacts and other stuff that Microsoft makes to transfer even to other Microsoft machines. The support network Microsoft has traditionally relied on (that's you and me) is moving to Linux.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
>So what will Linux do that Windows can't already do?
>Will it wash my car? Make a nice scrambled egg and
>bacon? Still has a web browser. Still has an email
>program. Still point and click.
It might not wash your car, but you *could* set up a home security/surveillance system with it if you got some cameras/sensors and wanted to. Also, there are a number of experimental robots in existence running Linux now, so if you were smart enough on the hardware end you very well possibly *could* build something that could wash a car...same for the egg and bacon. There's a HOWTO in existence for a Linux-powered coffee machine.
>Perhaps the decision makers of Linux should focus
>on newer ways of doing things.
You mean like this, this, this, or maybe this?
>So where is the free folks? Only a matter of time
>before licensing fees are added.
Been here recently?
Not to be antagonistic, but before forming an opinion, you might want to do some actual research to base it on first. This is one of the most ignorant comments I've seen for a long time.
I switched the home to Linux after paying for an antivirus subscription and still getting hosed by a virus/bho/something.
1. Setting the GUI to behave like windows.
2. Setting up hardware to "just work." It takes a little extra time especially if you are like me and learning along the way.
3. Permissions can be set in some places to prevent things from happening that the user may want. Ex. can't write to a USB stick or camera card. (Secure? yes. Easy? No.)
4. Buying hardware. Linux hardware is a completely different shopping experience. Wife/Mom/Pop might not get into shopping this way and probably won't understand at first. Does it work? Who's writing drivers? Is it an ongoing project?
Overall the Wife Aceptance Factor started low and as I got things working the way she was used to is quite high. Now, no admin or concern on my part at all and high WAF.
So, your resources are spent differently. Good excuse for some time with the folks though.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Window's file system
Huh? What a great deal a single apostrophe can do!
Insert it and you get a generic computing term. Remove it, and you get a registered trademark using which you can end up in court.
What a small world we live in!
Ease of installation? Gimmie a break Kubuntu is quite easy to install if you know:
That is LESS than I needed to know when I installed Windows 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP, and MUCH less than I needed to install NT4 (concession: or Debian Sarge)
Since I'm a little more technical than a lot of people, I'm even trying Kubuntu with Wine and the Sidenet Wine Installation Utility to see if I can run the applications I need without buying Crossover.
Why am I saying this? Because I refuse to ever upgrade to Windows Vista. I don't need to buy software from a company that will treat me like a criminal every time I need a patch for their shitty software.
Imagine getting frisked (and not by your dream girl/guy either) every time you went to draw money from your bank account... would you be a member at that bank very long? I think not!
Imagine having to pay fees to run YOUR car (gas doesn't count, cause you pay for similar resources to run a computer...like electricity) and not even be allowed to fix it if something goes wrong.
It's riduculous, degrading, annoying, and just a plain shitty thing to do. I think Ubuntu and Kubuntu finally got it right, and I have tried Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris, Mandrake, and all the other "easy" distros. Someone finally got it right, make it work out of the box!
Bye everyone...lunch is over.
Make America grate again!
That's why we have Mac's. :)
If I am going to pay US$89.95 for an OS that will run my MS software why would I not just use MS XP?
As for why not use OpenOffice instead? Well Open Office doesnt have all the bells yet.
I am forced to use it for school research, and for work. 95% of it is wonderful. Sometimes having all the editors and desktop choices is nice. One thing I spent the weekend working on, is wireless in Linux. My machine (Dell PowerEdge SC420), has only 3 PCI slots, filled up with Video, Audio, and TV Tuner. I wanted to add a USB wireless network adapter. Windows has had these for years. I looked up to see which ones work with Linux. D-Link claims their DWL-G132 works with Linux. I drive over to Best Buy, and purchase one. It is $70, with $20 rebate. Sitting next to it on the shelf is the DWL-G122 for $19 after rebate, but that doesnt work in Linux. I get home, plug it in, it doesn't work. This is Fedora Core 4. I poke around, see that the kernel detects it, but has no driver. I go to D-Link's site, their is no driver download. After cursing some, I download Ndiswrapper, compile that, except that it first needs kernel source, so I download the kernel sources, get them installed, which isn't straightforward like in the older redhat versions, compile Ndiswrapper, install that. I use the Ndiswrapper install script to install my windows drivers where they go. I have to read the INF files to determine which one matches my usb-id. It is here that I learn the DWL-G132 and DWL-G122 are the same chip, it is only the driver that is differant. The G122 is limited to 54 MBps, the G132 runs at 108 MBps. Same freaking hardware. I call Ndiswrapper to load the driver, and get no error. In the kernel log, I see a stack trace from the kernel side thread dying. Y'all still with me? Im a freaking computer engineer working on my PhD, and I can't get this shit to work. How many "normal people" know what a driver, a kernel, a thread, or a usb-id is? How many of them can dig through INF files and find out which one really goes to their device? This is unf*ckingbelievable. Finally, I return the usb adapter, and buy a wireless gaming adapter that converts the on-board ethernet to wireless, for $100. Linux sure as hell ain't free when I got to pay $100 for what costs $20 on Windows. Everytime I talk about loving my two Macs, people whine about how expensive they are. Guess what, my time is worth money. I have to have Linux to do my work, but I sure wish I didn't.
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
so are you just really really bored, or what?
>This is Fedora Core 4
Back when I was using Dead Rat's offerings, I hated Linux, too. I'm running Linux From Scratch these days, but you possibly wouldn't be interested in that. I would suggest trying Debian, though...it still has package management similar to what you'd be used to with RPM, but it also reputedly is more sane in other areas as well. Although I haven't used it, some people might also suggest Ubuntu as well, since that is based on Debian apparently, but people claim it is more user-friendly.
Dead Rat's primary claim to fame is offering the sort of support contracts which corporate lemmings insist on...but the reality is that their distributions suck compared to most. Get Debian, or, if you're feeling slightly more adventurous, Gentoo. Most of the problems you mention here are Dead Rat centric, I suspect.
actually I would think the combination of a live cd distro that had many games, along with basic surfing and IM, etc might get the ball rolling more. It's something that could be sold for reasonable at the retail level, say ten bucks,(not 90$ or whatever, keep it in impulse purchase level) and people after they booted it up would have a linux to play with. People in the aisle *are* looking for games, I noticed it this last weekend when I made the rounds of stores that sell computers and accessories, etc around here while they were running the state "no sales tax" weekend. As long as the directions are clearly on the box to set your boot parameters correctly, I think most kids could figure it out, and they could show their parents, etc..
And I love gaming on my linux desktop, works awesome. Altho I cannot for the life of me figure out why they stopped making games after Unreal Tournament 99 GOTY....... ;p
Actually, the answer is yes there.
I have a Brother HL 1020 laser printer, which strictly speaking is a Windows printer. Xandros identified it and set it up correctly right during the installation.
Let's just say I really like this distro. I chose it very carefully, and I have yet to have an issue with it.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
You're absolutely correct, and to clarify, I use Linux (Kubuntu currently, Slackware as a server) and I did buy a card for my laptop which worked just fine in Linux. However, like I said, many aren't going to go through the hassle I did just to get something to work in Linux. Like you say, people are expecting it to "just work" and whether or not that's a third party problem becomes sort of irrelevant if the user won't use the end product because of it.
Since when am I supposed to assume that their product does more than they claim it does? If the CrossOver website's main blurb says that it supports 30 productivity apps then I'm just supposed to know that all but old shareware programs work?
Yet another ordinary review of a typical commercial Linux distro, in that format we all love to hate - a few paragraphs on a page filled with distracting LowerMyBills.Com Flash ads. Comedy option: screenshots taken with a digital camera pointed at the screen. What's the big deal?
From TFA
:)
"CD burning speed in Xandros File Manager is limited to the minimum burning speed of your CD burner. To get the maximum burning speed out of your hardware you can either become a Premium subscriber to Xandros Networks or upgrade to the Standard, Deluxe or Business editions of the Xandros Desktop OS."
Oh now this would be annoying. If you want people to enjoy using your product, don't put unnecessary limitations on your product.
Then again maybe I'm overly sensitive.
Open Office (and every other word processor under the sun) will read and write Word files with no problem whatever.
But you knew that already.
Yes, there are specialty programs that have no Linux or Mac counterparts, but for your garden variety office applications (spreadsheet, wp, etc) it doesn't matter what OS you run.
Just remember to save your documents in Word (or text) format, Mr. Ballmer.
Many windows apps will run in crossover.
Evolution is a fact. Darwinism is a joke.
That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. No-one can seriously argue that Linux gaming holds a candle to Windows gaming. Yes, as the pedants will point out, a number of great games have been ported, and more still work (or mostly work) under Wine or Transgaming.
Well, that number is a tiny fraction of the number available for Windows. That's not a bad thing (unless gaming is your thing), it's just the way it is. To mod down someone pointing out that, for them, it's a show stopper is just asinine.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I think the linux desktop thing is being done well these days. Some problems exist for joe and jane home user:
-Printing set up. Cups isn't flawless and tends to be too complex for home users.
-The oft-cited hardware support. (getting better though)
-Delivery of the Linux software application universe. This is where lindows click-n-run is helpful. Otherwise it's searching far and wide figuring out that gimp is the image editor, scribus is the Illustrator and more. I have suse 9.3 and they don't make it any easier. You have to know what you are looking for and then the package thing works great.
I'm still concerned that MS is going to be taking most of the wealth created by Linux. They are going to have a management layer that elegantly integrates linux and windows boxes. This allows them to control linux for their most profitable customers like govt. and big business.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Seriously folks, were gonna have to do a FAQ for these guys (by the question, I doubt youre any kind of computer geek. I guess just a simple geek) who keep asking this.
So you want Linux to fight the Windows monoculture with a monoculture of our own?
Why not have the Linux formats closed source so no one else can you use them?
Seriously, do a Google and read about Linux. You might be clueless and wanting to learn which is cool but youre obviously still being weaned by the Redmond model.
What came first of the chicken and the egg? The vendors won't release games for Linux because the userbase isn't big enough and the userbase won't switch to Linux because the lack of games..
It's called market potential. Whenever your company releases $HARDWARE or $VIDEO_GAME they have to ask the marketing people "who will buy this?" Based on the answers, you get publishers paying for development of Microsoft only hardware drivers and Microsoft only video games.
(Neither video games or hardware are Free as in Beer. Free as in Speech is possible, but discussing price-free drivers and games is beyond the scope of my argument here.)
I was asking around last year about the market potential for Linux kernel GNU systems. The biggest problem is find out just how many people use Linux in the first place (http://counter.li.org./
So, given that it takes a market of at least 100,000 units sold to turn a profit on a top-release $50 game with a $1 million to $3 million budget, are there enough desktop linux users to suppport a Linux game release? Is the market there?
Note that top-release $50 PC games for Windows sell upwards of 200,000 units in their first year, and upwards of 100,000 units for their next few. For example, Blizzard's Wold of Warcraft (http://www.blizzard.com/ cost $5-10million to make but sold 600,000 at $39-50 in its first 6 weeks. But that is on the extreme end of the spectrum.
Assume 50% of home desktop Linux users play computer video games[0].
Using counter.li.org numbers Linux desktops = 0.025% (0.0125% gamers) of all desktops, then a WoW for Linux would have sold 144 copies in it's first 6 weeks[1]. Stats at geek.com (http://www.geek.com/ for 2004 show Linux desktops = 1.12 percent of the market. Assuming the highest number of Linux desktop gamers being 0.56 percent of the total gaming market, then a WoW for Linux would have sold 3,000 copies in it's first 6 weeks at $39-50.
That means between $7,200 and $150,000 could have been spent by Linux desktop users on WoW. While $7k will only pay a Bangladeshi salary, $150,000 would nicely cover one or two interns to make sure WoW compiles and runs on Linux[2][3].
0. Or assume a higher rate of gameplay, but consider less than 100% market penetration of your game, so that 50% market penetration is reached.
1. Note that Transgaming (http://transgaming.com/ needs far more paying customers pending their $5 votes than this to start work on a title, and WoW has been voted #1 priority by transgaming.com customers for several months before being supported.
2. Assuming a baseline Linux is being supported (e.g. SDL $VER + Glib $VER or LSB (http://www.linuxbase.org/) or Distro $FOO) and no additional cost for shipping and delivering the binaries.
3.$15 per month implies $2,160 to $45,000 a month to keep that Linux port updated. Considering Blizzard.com is reporting a 1.11 patch to the 5 year old Diablo II, over a similar 5 years a WoW monthly income could have added $225,000 to Blizzard's coffiers.
"You cannot have a General Will unless you have shared experiences. You cannot be fair to people you don't know."
if you are migrating to Linux from Mac OS, or OS/2, or . . .
You're exactly right. It really isn't up to the OS community to write drivers for hardware manufacturers. However, as an end user, I don't care.
The pro-Linux camp will tell you "Use Linux", "Windows Sucks", etc. etc. When you have trouble getting something working, they say "RTFM". When you do read it, (knowing that 4 clicks and it would have worked in Windows), and find out it just won't work in Linux, they tell you it's the manufacturers fault.
Believe me, I'd switch at least some of my friends/family over to Linux if these issues weren't the case.
My Tech Posts on Twitter
The very first tyme I used XP I had to reboot within 10 minutes because I got the BSOD, Blue Screen of Death. The only Windows OS I haven't gotten one from is NT 4.0, but my version runs on a DEC Alpha and I've rarely use it the past few years. I haven't even booted it in more than a year, when I finally setup a home network then I may start using it again.
FalconShould there be a Law?
does anyone know how well Windows audio apps (i.e. fruityloops, reason, cakewalk, logic, soundforge, buzz) work on systems like this?
1.) do they work at all
2.) what if anything is usually broken
3.) what's the latency like? can it get down to super low latency we expect from things like ASIO?
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com
I know this isn't related to the topic but I noticed when visiting the CodeWeaver website on the front page they had a blurb and link to a press release about Apple's switch to Intels, CodeWeaversTM Expands Developer Services, Enabling Future Windows Application Porting To Mac OS /. was CodeWeaver wouldn't be supporting MacTels,
No More Codewarrior for Mac OS X .
FalconCodeWeavers' CrossOver Technology, Combined with Apple's Move to Intel x86 Chips, Creates Lucrative New Possibilities for Mid-Tier Windows Developers , yet yesterday one of the topics on
Should there be a Law?
There are a lot of idiological arguments going on here. Most of them about how it's "not free" and that it doesn't do a good enough job of breaking people away from the Windows monopoly. There are also a lot of posters complaining about Mom and Pop issues.
Hello! This is Xandros Business Edition. BTW, I am currently typing this on Xandros Business edition 2.5. Why? I am at work in a enterprise work place. I have an existing Active Directory domain with almost 30,000 accounts and tons of kerberized services that interoperate with it.
Why Xandros? Because I tried Fedora Core 1,2,3, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Knopix, WhiteBox and a few others (except SuSe). They were all more than acceptable for "desktop use" by a single user with a little (or in some cases a lot) of tweaking.
What did Xandros do that won me over? After installing, it asked me (graphically) how I wanted to handle user accounts. I chose to have it join our Active Directory domain. Upon login for the first time as a "regular user", I had a home directory auto-created, I had a folder on my desktop called "DriveH" which automatically mounted my network home directory and I could browse my entire network, connect to any of the resources in any of the different domains or workgroups and have them automounted in the future with a simple checkbox.
This was too good to be true... No mucking with pam-ldap, no manual additions to /etc/passwd, no custom login/automount scripts, no commandline kerberos crap? Just to be sure, I logged off, and logged in as a different account (a standard testing account). Again, my home directory was auto-created, my network home directory was auto-mapped. It just worked. So did printing, so did CD burning, so did almost every other thing I needed to do on a daily basis as a general user.
Sure, I'd been able to get most of this working with the other distros I tried, but they were a pain and every one of them required a lot of mucking about on the command line at one point or another and I never did get any of them working where users were automagically added when a new person logged in - I always had to have made an entry in /etc/passwd first, if only to just assign a uid and guid. (NOTE: we do not have Services for Unix on our windows servers)
Just so that you know, I also downloaded the "free" version of Xandros and tried it. It did NOT have the enterprise, Active Directory, multi-user functionality in it. It also didn't have some of the drivers for things like my SATA drive (at least the version I tried). But that was OK. I was in an enterprise environment, and I needed an enterprise desktop OS.
Would I give Xandros to my mom? Sure. But she just needs a solid, reliable single-user desktop OS, so I'd probably point her to Ubuntu or Fedora Core 4. I personally think (with the exception of gaming and maybe taxes), Linux IS ready for the desktop, for a home user. With Xandros (and I hear SuSe) I think it is pretty darn close to ready in the enterprise as well - especially if you throw in in Crossover Office for those users who need Access Databases, proprietary Excel tie-ins with JDEdwards, etc.
But see, by moving the base OS to Linux, I, as an administrator, get several key benefits.
"terrorism" and "pedophilia" are the root passwords to the Constitution
Flamebait? Please explain how his response was inciting people. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
The original idea behind GNU and then Linux was to imitate UNIX with a free version. UNIX was considered a powerful and useful operating system, but it was proprietary as all anything and required expensive software licenses.
So Windows is proprietary and bound up in licenses, and people think it is useful to have a free work-alike, and they just happen to layer that work-alike on top of Linux instead of writing their own kernel.
Having tried Windows apps under Xandros, my only gripe is that the screen paints are slow, ScrollWindowEx() has a slow implementation, and IDirectDraw.WaitForVerticalBlank() gives a return code saying that it works but it doesn't wait for the vertical retrace -- it is stubbed out. While the native Linux apps are peppier, screen speed is still not one of the standout qualities.
While we are on the subject, there are the purists who insist on talking about GNU/Linux because Linux is only the kernel and GNU is all of the tools. Well, then maybe we should talk about Gnome/GTK/Linux and KDE/Qt/Linux as these are the configurations to do GUI's and we can also say that OS-X is in reality Finder/Quartz/Darwin. And maybe there is a set of users (and developers) who want Win32 API/Linux (i.e. Wine/Linux).
So Linux is better than Windows. Is that true of the GUI layer? Is there anything about Gnome/GTK or KDE/Qt that is really that standout and advanced beyond Win32/GDI?
If I want to break loose from the Microsoft monopoly, Gnome/GTK or KDE/Qt don't really do anything for me. The don't seem to be any more advanced than Win32 API, they are missing some features that Win32 API has, and I would be breaking my backside writing for some small percentage of the desktop market that keeps promising to break out any year now. If I wanted to play around with a GUI tool set in a minority market because it has a cool factor, I would give Xcode/Cocoa a look.
The word-on-the-street I get from my CS department contacts is that if I want to develop for Linux to do it in Java (or Python/wxPython -- in my particular software niche where I am currently Windows bound, another developer has a product using a mix of TCL/TK and low-level C to not be OS bound). Not that the Java GUI API stands out, but at then I would (more or less) achieve OS independence. None of these guys are telling me that I should target Gnome or KDE.
Codeweaver
Codewarrior
No I don't understand the difference, other than spelling, though I now know they are different.
FalconShould there be a Law?
First, you define a playground ("the list")
Then, you have a go at anyone entering it.
It simply isn't true that "Linux doesn't suffer from viruses/worms but does suffer from everything else." I am running SuSE Linux from its early 6.1-version and there is no such thing as suffering from crashes, memory leaks, GUI deficiencies, or "uneasy" management, be it system or applications.
Yor argument in favour of Tiger is great, but your reasonig towards Linux is downright stupid.
Try Slackware, try Debian (pure, or maybe Ubuntu) and you will _have_ to admit that there is never a problem like the ones you'd like to sell us.
There is no need to 'bridge' any desktop manager with any other one. Run one or the other, or run none - take an application of choice an run it in the environment it requres to run smoothly.
Possibly there is a need to develop KDE (or maybe Gnome, etc. as well) more rapidly in order to evade the threat the new Intel Mac with its superb desktop is posing on Linux.
But AFAIK there is no justification in whining about Linux as being 'crashy', 'uneasy' or (sic) equipped with a 'poor GUI'! Have a closer look at the system before you comment on it.
Sig? What sig?! Ah, sig! Sigh.
If you want a 'nix based OS that is ready for prime time, BUY A MAC!
I have installed Linux, I have tried to like Linux, but every time, I end up wiping it off the drive. An end user should not have to recompile his kernal just to make a freaking device work!!!!!!!!!!!!
(writing this on my Mac Mini)
For how much? I've been looking around their site and all I can figure out is that I need a subscription to download their product; I see nothing about how much a subscription costs.
Um...the license you're referring to is the license for the Open Circulation edition, which is the free one.
d sk_bus_license.html
The license for the Business edition the article was referring to can be found here: http://www.xandros.com/products/business/desktop/
The two are different. In fact, the first section states:
" A. Xandros Desktop ("Software Product") is a modular operating system made up of individual software components that were created by various individuals and entities ("Software Programs"). The End User may install the Software Product on unlimited home computers of his or hers for non-commercial use and one commercial use computer."
And, the fact is that Xandros does have proprietary elements. Yes, it is more expensive than downloading a copy of, say, Ubuntu. However, you also get StarOffice instead of OpenOffice, and Crossover Office, a specially customized version of KDE, and a detailed printed manual, so I can't help feeling as though the money is well spent.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
As for the GUI I was just using knoppix today and was frustrated at how poor Konqueror was handling different things. First I don't like the one click opens (though this is probably changeable). The main gripe was trying to transfer files over samba using konquerer and having very unhelpful error messages such as "file could not be transfered cancel, skip, auto skip". This didn't tell me why it didn't transfer which was the information that I really needed.
PS: I've used Debian, Gentoo, Suse, Knoppix, Ubunto, Mandrake, Redhat/fedora, and others and they all suffer from problems like these.
I thought the reason people switched to linux was to be on an OS that wasn't windows. If Xandros is targeting people who are running windows then chances are those people already paid for windows when they bought their pc. So why go and delete an expensive OS just to replace it with a slightly cheaper one that will ulitmately confuse the average newbie at some point. I can understand if someone downloaded a free distro to actually learn linux but not why they would pay money ontop of what they already paid for windows for a kinda-sorta linux. If you love windows so much just use it instead.
Those who work with a FOSS OS however are more than likely more proficient in one if not both of these.
In addition, if all the windows users in the world converted to linux (good thing) they still wouldn't have the program skills or the knowledge to submit bug fixes and you'd just have the problem that most of your user base doesn't know what's wrong with the software.
--
You could BugMeNot, or you could just click. You decide
I base my business around Linux but.... Sorry folks but there is one one MS Office application that has yet to be ported to OS that my customers require and that is MS Access. I've played with many of the OS alternatives to MS Access but they fall way short of ease of use.
Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
They're called symlinks, not softlinks.
NTFS does plenty of permissions, it has ACLs even.
I think it supports an entire superset of what UFS (or Berkeley FFS) does.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Click on subscribe
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"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
Rarely? Maybe. Hardly ever? Maybe. Never? This flirts with `It's not a bug, it's a feature.'
If you are talking about the Linux GUI toolkits as being cross-platform, then the choices become GTK, Qt, wx (OK, layered on top of GTK on Linux but layered on top of Win32 on Windows rather than running a Windows GTK), Java, TK (way different and separate from GTK), Win32 (through Wine under Linux) and perhaps some others I have missed (Ok, Ok Mono, but that is a layer on to of either GTK or Win32/Wine).
In that universe, do GTK and Qt have any real "standout" features that merit developer attention? Are they that much better than Win32/GDI -- I am talking about as an API not the locked-into-Windows aspects? As to the complaints that Microsoft is a moving target and is frustrating Wine, you could say that Microsoft's attention is on .NET and beyond and that Win32/GDI is a legacy system with a ton of legacy software.
An analogy is that all of the Intel processors have RISC cores and run X86 in one or another kind of code translation or emulation and that X86 is almost a kind of byte code for a virtual machine just as much as Java uses its own virtual machine byte code. To push the analogy, X86 is a rather clunky byte code on account of nagging details relating to setting condition codes and the like.
So I am asking, are GTK and/or Qt that much cleaner abstractions than Win32/GDI -- I think they are about on the same level. Unless people can tell me what is particularly crufty and unabstractable about the Windows window manager and GDI, I am thinking that a lot of the criticism of Wine is by a reaction to Microsoft rather than the technical merits of providing a particular API, especially since the GUI layer is just one potentially interchangable piece of a larger operating system.