China To Develop Its Own DVD Format

An anonymous reader wrote to mention an MSNBC story covering a move by the Chinese entertainment industry to create their own DVD standard, the second such announcement in two years. From the article: "If successful, the move could add a new wrinkle to the battle between HD DVD and the competing Blu-ray Disc formats over which will become the dominant new DVD standard. The official Xinhua News Agency said the new standard will be based on but incompatible with HD DVD, which is being promoted by Toshiba Corp. and Universal Studios, as well as Intel Corp. and Microsoft Corp., the leading suppliers of chips and software for most of the world's personal computers."

Comments

Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Anonymous Coward]

Because an hour later, they'll have a new one.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[robyannetta]

Because and hour later...

...you'll be hungry again.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[FragHARD]

They will have to have another one because the quality/lack of it will render all five hundred billion of the first discs produced into christmas tree ornaments. Of course this will happen with the second and third and..(repeat as needed).. production runs as well.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[AKAImBatman]

I honestly don't understand what China thinks it will accomplish. You don't become an economic juggernaut by taking steps to cut yourself off from the rest of the world. If China wants the economic benefits of creating standards rather than just using them, they need to create a standard that the rest of the world will adopt. That way *they* can control the standard and ensure its success.

Instead they're merely making an incompatible version of someone else's standard. Something which they have no real economic power to force. They can force it politically, but that would simply piss off "The People of China" that much more when they can't import any foreign entertainment. (Certainly, a big import/export for any first world country.)

The only thing I can say is that it's probably again about control. They aren't looking at the economic implications, they're looking at preventing ideas like "freedom", "democracy", and "Dallas" (I'm only half-way joking here) from being imported.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Are you aware there's more than a billion people living in China? That is one big market. Yes, they can afford to cut themselves off.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[AKAImBatman]

Are you aware there's more than a billion people living in China?

Uh huh. Because entertainment exports have always been consistent with the size of the country, right?

Putting that aside, China needs food and a lot of it. As I understand the problem, a large portion of their land is unfarmable, and they've made poor use of the farmable land they have. As a result, they will always need to maintain imports of commodities.

The problem is that if they cut themselves off they will have an import/export deficit. There are two ways they can make up for that deficit:

1. Keep exports high enough to match imports.
2. Create wealth faster than it can be exported.

Currently China operates on number 1 while the US operates on number 2. If China wants to close their borders and control the standards, they'll need to fall into category 2. To fall into category 2, they need to have enough economic weight to make their money worth more than the countries they are purchasing food from. Getting there requires that they become an economic juggernaut. To become and economic juggernaut, you have to deal with the rest of the world. Having free and open trade with the rest of the world results in... (you guessed it) loss of control. Soon the Chinese people will watch Dallas on DVD and revolt against their government!

Viva la Dallas! :-P

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[barum87]

I don't know if you have been to China, but Chinese Government trying to cut its people from the rest of the world is a story of long time ago. They already have everything we have in America. They sell DVDs of American movies when the movies are only in theaters in the US. And they don't care if the rest of the world uses different format. They just have more options.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[vrwarp]

the parent is leaning more towards the idea that china has quite a big market domesically... therefore losing a few markets here and there is probably not very devestating

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[microbee]

They aren't looking at the economic implications, they're looking at preventing ideas like "freedom", "democracy", and "Dallas" [wikipedia.org] (I'm only half-way joking here) from being imported. I don't think so (translate: what you said is complete B.S.) China just doesn't want to pay royalty to the current patent holders. If China adopted the existing standards, it would have to pay for every DVD player it made. China industry has been groaning over this for years. Not everything is about politics.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[AKAImBatman]

the parent is leaning more towards the idea that china has quite a big market domesically.

I understand that. My point is that they can't simply maintain themselves on their local market. Their need for commodities imports screws with their desire to close their borders.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Dot.Com.CEO]

I am sorry but your understanding of macroeconomics is limited at best. China is growing at a rate of 7-12% a year and projections make it seem that until 2025 it will be the world's largest economy by far. If I may say so, if you want to have such a strong opinion on China (I remember you had another post I commented only yesterday and you also seem to go on about it on your blog) read a bit on it. I suggest the Economist's analysis here.

I am sorry to say your anti-Chinese rhetoric is absurdly naive, as it is. No offence.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Guppy06]

"You don't become an economic juggernaut by taking steps to cut yourself off from the rest of the world. "

Of what use is a standard developed in Japan or the United States when DVD players are still manufactured in China anyway? China has the power to put this new standard onto store shelves around the world, and the debate between content publishers and technology companies will seem moot when the consumers themselves are presented an option that is cheaper than both competitors (because there's no obnoxious licensing fees).

Both flavors of Western(-esque) corporations may want to use a format that lets them enact DRM or region control, but ultimately they will have to sell on a format that people will buy, or no format at all.

Personally, with my dissatisfaction with the interests involved in the BluRay vs. HD-DVD debate, I'm very interested to see what the PRC has to offer. The "communists" may finally show us how capitalism is supposed to work.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Again you are wrong. They do not want to close their borders. On the contrary. They recently joined the WTO. That is not the behaviour of a market that is looking inward. You are so wrong regarding China it is actually quite tragic seeing you constantly spreading a simplistic analysis on /. and on your own blog. To summarise my point, please learn before trying to appear learned.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[fiddley]

ummm - China might put the players on the shelves, but who is gonna buy the players if theres no blockbuster movies to play on 'em because nearly all the content megaliths have already cosied up with Blu-Ray or HD-DVD? obviously many countries who have a rampant piracy problem may do well, but what about the civilised world?

--

If Medicine were ever perfected, we would all be the same

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[StarvingSE]

Yeah.... How many of those one billion people do you think can afford to purchase something to play a dvd on let alone a library of them.

How many of them even own a TV? They get paid $0.44 an hour to do our manufacturing jobs.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Dot.Com.CEO]

China actually has a sizeable middle class. Not the size (in %) of western economies but it's getting there.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[AKAImBatman]

China just doesn't want to pay royalty to the current patent holders.

I sorry, since when did China start respecting American patents? Or any IP rights? Last I knew, piracy was considered a huge problem in China specifically because IP rights were *not* protected.

Even if piracy is not an issue (which the rise in Chinese Patents may be taking a part in), why base your format on an existing patented format? Would that not make the format a derivitive filing? So they would be no better off in this area.

As I said, if China wants to design formats, that's fine. But they should be looking at the bigger picture of designing formats that they can export to the entire world, not force the the domestic market. The fact that patent concerns are obviously not the issue and that China has no plans to export their format suggests that the issue is political, not technological.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Anonymous Coward]

That was funny, non redundant.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[the morgawr]

There are several things wrong with this:

The US does not opperate on #2. Here is what really is happening:

The US imports more goods then it exports. As a result foreigners have lots of dollars. One of two things will happen, either the value of the dollar will fall relative to the foreign currency and the trade will balance OR the foreigners will decide to invest the money in the US economy. In reality some combination of both will happen.

Normally this doesn't affect the country involved very much, but the US has some screwed up domestic economic policy that left alone would cause consumption to outstrip the ability to grow and maintain the capital base needed to support it. As long as foreigners reinvest the money into the US economy things will be fine, the massive consumption expenditures made by the American public will not be impared. If OTOH, the foreigners find somewhere better to put their wealth, they will stop investing, the dollar will fall, and because of bass-ackwards government policy, the economy will not be able to support the existing level of consuption expenditure.

As for China, they are growing at a rapid rate but are desperate for capital investment to keep the rapid growth up. If they do not entice enough people to invest in China (or produce enough exports to bring enough foreign currency into china to buy the capital goods they need), the rapid progress of their economy will grind to a halt and their country would likely be destabilized.

Their thoughts probably are working along these lines: If China has a special incompatable DVD format, entertainment companies that want to do business here will need to produce special versions of their content. In order to save costs they will most likely build the factory in China, investing in our economy.

Obviously they are counting on the large potential market to draw the media companies in and offset the artificial barrier.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[microbee]

I sorry, since when did China start respecting American patents? Or any IP rights? Last I knew, piracy was considered a huge problem in China specifically because IP rights were *not* protected.

For one thing, you are mixing up patent and copyright. Piracy has nothing to do with patent.

Just google "DVD patent royalty China". Here is one link I just found.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[wangxiaohu]

Actually, the numbers of users inside China will be much more than users outside China. Standards are made by market, not some association. Don't expect Chinese pay huge amount of copyright fees to foreign companies every year! It has to be ended.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[dbrutus]

Actually, they can't afford it. They aren't that rich, they *depend* on exporting their manufactured goods to the world, and this just pisses people off and convinces the sober investor that maybe it might be a good idea to start diversifying out of the PRC to manufacturers who aren't quite such idiots about these things.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Guppy06]

"but who is gonna buy the players if theres no blockbuster movies to play on 'em because nearly all the content megaliths have already cosied up with Blu-Ray or HD-DVD?"

Who stamps the discs?

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[controlguy]

let me see if I get this.... instead of using a "US-based" DVD format to pirate movies, they'll use their own format?

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[fiddley]

Whoever the content people pay to stamp them. The only place you are gonna get "'PRC'HD-DVDs" is in those societies that are relatively tolerant of piracy, because there's no way the content producers are going to license that format anywhere that counts i.e North America, Japan or Europe and some other places. The market for unlicensed content is practically non existant That being so, the players will never sell (in qunatity) in those markets.

As a side observation I think it could be interesting to see how resiliant the new HD formats are to duplication if there is what amounts to a government sponsored initiative to get content from one format to another.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Anonymous Coward]

But the DRM in the Chinese format may be even more restrictive than Western world corporations want, and you can bet there will be region coding and authorization (required for censorship purposes).

...The Chinese standard, not expected to reach markets until at least 2008, would provide higher definition, better sound and better anti-piracy measures, Xinhua quoted Lu Da, deputy director of the government-affiliated National Disc Engineering Center, as saying earlier this week.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Scott Byer]

Can you say GB18030?

China can and will define it's own standard for things, and the world will mostly step in line. It's far too big a market to ignore completely, and all China has to do is threaten to close it's markets to things that don't meet it's slightly incompatible "standards".

Much as most people can't resist shopping at WalMart because of the low prices, but in spite of the larger economic implications, companies can't resist modifying products for the Chinese market and it's one-off specifications because of the sheer potential market size.

China is a bigger threat to freedom than Microsoft and Sony combined. The only hope is that the products we ship over there carry enough of the free world with them to infiltrate a completly type-A regime.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[aled]

They can use a local DVD standard and still compete on every other market. Just how DVD movies/players they import/export right now? and they can still export standard players if they want.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Anonymous Coward]

I like pirating movies too.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[1u3hr]

They can force it politically, but that would simply piss off "The People of China" that much more when they can't import any foreign entertainment. (Certainly, a big import/export for any first world country.)

China doesn't import much foreign-made entertainment, because most Chinese people only speak Chinese. So localised, dubbed versions of movies are the norm. And actually most "first world countries" are the same, you won't find the same disks and packaging in the US and UK even. And that's not even getting into region coding, which tries to enforce this.

So if they're going to make their own physical versions, it makes no difference if they are in a different kind of disk as well.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[dangitman]

because there's no way the content producers are going to license that format anywhere that counts i.e North America, Japan or Europe and some other places.

Are you racist or something? What makes you think that China, India, or Indonesia "don't count"? They are massively important nations on the world stage, even if they have "rampant piracy."one day they will be much more important than the "nations that count" which you mention.

And, by the way, the USA and other "Western" nations have equally rampant piracy. Does that make them uncivilized barbarians who don't count, as you imply about some nations?

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[fiddley]

Take a fucking pill before posting you prick! We are having a discussion about DVD standards here, and y'know, I was talking in that context. (Although I may be unaware of any link that exists between DVD standards and the importance "on the world stage" of the nation in question)

To clarify, I was talking in terms of importance by the slice of revenue the studios get from each market, as this will undoubtably drive a lot of their strategic decisions. ffs.

As for piracy, most urban centres in the USA etc will not have shops on the high street that deal in exclusively pirated material, as does China, Russia and many other places. These shops are downright common, and certainly in the cities I have visited have outnumbered bona fide outlets by maybe 10:1. If outlets like this sprung up in the US they would in all likelyhood be shut down rather promptly. The other problematic fact is that I could have bought any number of current Cinema and DVD releases for the equivalent of about $1 each, and the authorities couldn't care less about the situation. I guess they have other priorities. Now I don't have any figures to back this up, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I would imagine that the piracy situation in countries where you can openly buy pirated material on the high street is going to be significantly bigger than in those aforementioned countries where the piracy market is somewhat underground.

So in order to provide the right kind of incentive for the studios to press these new Chinese discs, China would have to clean up the piracy situation as it currently stands, and get a high penetration of their new players. Neither of these are unsurmountable problems, particularly the latter, but they will both need to be addressed. That's also not to say that they will ignore the market completely if things don't change, but they are unlikely to 'fully embrace' it either (whatever that may mean.)

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on!!

Censorship of audio-visual products as a means of controlling content and ideas stopped being fesible years ago. Piracy means that people living in China's cities have acces to an amazing range of foreign film and television products. In many cases the range of films offered by a local pirate distributor in a corner DVD shop in Beijing, Shanghai or Guangzhou is infinitely better than anything you'd find in Australia. You want rare films that are no longer being distributed legitimately? You can get them. You want hard core bring down the empire anti-government subversive docu-drama? No worries. Of course, the sad reality is that most viewers are much more interested in being entertained than in being enlightened by what they are watching, but lets do the maths anyway: 90% piracy rates mean that a whole great big 10% of the discs being viewed by Chinese audiences go through the censorship process.

The point is that China manufacture 80% of the world's DVD players. Fair enough - the EVD format didn't amount to anything. But it does make a certain amount of sense for China to use its clout as the world's single biggest manufacturer of DVD hardware to try to shift the market in ways that will favour its economy.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[dangitman]

As for piracy, most urban centres in the USA etc will not have shops on the high street that deal in exclusively pirated material, as does China, Russia and many other places. These shops are downright common, and certainly in the cities I have visited have outnumbered bona fide outlets by maybe 10:1.

But why would Americans need such shops or street vendors? Most Americans have high-speed internet access, or can obtain their illegal software from the computers at work. In many other countries, they don't have the network access, or jobs, so they have to buy off the street.

I don't see what makes street vendors any more evil than other "pirates." I also don't see how the existence of street vending makes piracy a more serious problem than other methods, like Bittorrent.

but I would imagine that the piracy situation in countries where you can openly buy pirated material on the high street is going to be significantly bigger than in those aforementioned countries where the piracy market is somewhat underground.

Why? What is the logic behind this reasoning?

So in order to provide the right kind of incentive for the studios to press these new Chinese discs, China would have to clean up the piracy situation as it currently stands, and get a high penetration of their new players.

This doesn't make sense. China is issuing this format for its own citizens. Chinese companies will be pressing the discs. China doesn't need anyone's permission on this, and doesn't care what other countries think. Why should they? Most countries are highly dependent on China today.

American companies also don't give a shit about piracy. They only care about profits. Why would the existence of piracy prevent them from entering a profitable market? They're after money, not morality.

Re:Don't pin your hopes on their first format

[fiddley]

But why would Americans need such shops or street vendors? Most Americans have high-speed internet access, or can obtain their illegal software from the computers at work. In many other countries, they don't have the network access, or jobs, so they have to buy off the street.

OK, so what you are saying is that access to a high speed net link somehow supplants the need for the shops? Why did America not have a widespread network of these shops before distribution of movies via the internet became commonplace (Probably less than 5 years ago)? Why is it that despite the fact that my entire Marketing Department, Sales Department, Directors and Administration all have access to a high speed net link, both domestically and at work, why do they all bug the IT Department guys for downloaded copies of the latest movies?

The distribution channel is only superficially related to the scale of the piracy problem. It is more the case that by allowing these places to exist that they are implicitly condoned by the authorities, which makes people more inclined to take advantage of the impossibly cheap prices they offer, which the studios have absolutely no chance of competing with. Heck, why would anyone bother downloading a movie if they are available on every street corner for less than the cost of the bandwidth, and without the hassle of tying up your broadband line for however long it takes?


I don't see what makes street vendors any more evil than other "pirates." I also don't see how the existence of street vending makes piracy a more serious problem than other methods, like Bittorrent.

I didn't say pirates are 'evil'. I was making the point that whilst the governments turn a blind eye to piracy by (for example) allowing the existence of the shops then the piracy problem in these countries makes it uneconomical for companies to compete on a large scale.


"but I would imagine that the piracy situation in countries where you can openly buy pirated material on the high street is going to be significantly bigger than in those aforementioned countries where the piracy market is somewhat underground."

Why? What is the logic behind this reasoning?

As I said before, I have no figures to back it up, so it was just a hunch based on the fact that when I walk in to Joe Schmo's house where I live, he will have maybe 20 DVD's on the shelf, and of those maybe 1 or 2 are pirate copies. Now when I have visited Joe Schmoski in Russia he has 20 DVDs on the shelf, of which maybe, and it's a BIG maybe, 1 is an original. So before I had no evidence, but now you have got me interested let's have a look for some quick quotes:

http://www.dvdexclusive.com/article.asp?articleID= 2431/

"Overall DVD unit shipments in China are forecast to rise to more than 300 million in 2009, up from about 100 million DVD units in 2005. Also, stronger government support should work to curb the country's present 90% piracy rate, where virtually all films are consumed illegally, to 70% to 80% by in 2009."

http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/Archive/2005/May/26-92 5739.html

Recent reports on global intellectual property rights (IPR) protections paint a "stark and unattractive" picture of the situation in China, where piracy levels in some sectors exceed 90 percent, Utah Republican Orrin Hatch said during a May 25 Senate Judiciary Committee hearing.

In fact: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=china+russi a+piracy&meta= there's hundreds of sources. Looks like I was right.


This doesn't make sense. China is issuing this format for its own citizens. Chinese companies will be pressing the discs. China doesn't need anyone's permission o

Quality?

[The Infidel]

Not to sound jingoistic by any means, but 'made in China' and 'quality product' rarely appear in the same paragraph (with the exception of this one...)

Re:Quality?

[grumpyman]

Are you kidding man? You can't compare it with high-end uber-users stuff, but the 'quality' is up to the level that majority of the world uses it. Check out which piece of electronic in your home is not made in China.

Re:Quality?

[Prophet of Nixon]

They make splendid steel products, as does Japan. Never get Pakistani steel though, ugh.

I always find that the most inferior foreign products aren't from any particular country, but are either A) sold in Radio Shack, or B) those things that say 'MADE IN USA' all over the packaging, because the packaging (or the sticker) is, but the product inside could be from anywhere.

Re:Quality?

[Ced_Ex]

Not to sound jingoistic by any means, but 'made in China' and 'quality product' rarely appear in the same paragraph (with the exception of this one...)

Having friends with factories in China, I can tell you that quality can be adjusted any way you want.

You want cheap products, they can make it cheap, they skimp on QA to save dollars. However, if you want them to produce high quality goods, they can do that too, just add some extra $$$ to the bottom line and they can make it to whatever quality standard you want.

It's all about how much you want to spend.

Re:Quality?

[kfg]

To move away from the high tech answers you're already getting I bought a student violin this year, made in China, two hundred bucks. Violin, bow and case. I wanted something I could bang around, take camping or to the beach and not worry about overmuch. Should be junk, right?

It is a better made, and with a little tweaking has turned out to be a better instrument, than my vintage and antique European and American instruments of considerably higher "value." As it plays in it just keeps getting better and better. I'm so impressed I'm planning to add a cello of the same model to my collection.

At a gig a friend asked if he could try it. When he picked it up and started to play his first comment was, "Niiiiiiiice bow!"

Perhaps you have to be a violin player to understand the ramifications of that comment.

It was not too long ago, in historical terms, that China and Japan were known as the source of the finest handmade items in the world. Europeans didn't risk their necks and their investments going all the way to China for junk. Made in China was not merely a mark of something being exotic, but a mark of quality absolutely unobtainable from anywhere else. Quality that you could see and feel.

Japan spent about a century getting beat up. They got over it. China spent about two centuries getting beat up, and beat up rather worse. They're finally starting to get over it.

It's a biiiiiiiiig frickin' dragon that's awakening; and it wants its reputation back.

KFG

Re:Quality?

[Shadow Wrought]

With a UID such as yours, we really need some JEs of your prophesies. Does Tricky Dick think the Red Sox can come back? Will Saddam be convicted? And just when will Duke Nukem hit stores?

Re:Quality?

[HunterZ]

My stuff is made in Taiwan, Singapore, and Japan...

Re:Quality?

[evilviper]

They make splendid steel products

Are you kidding? My god. I wouldn't touch Chinese-made tools with a 30 foot pole... I know numerous people that were seriously injured when a made-in-china drill bit/router bit/saw blade/etc. turned into high-speed flying shrapnel under normal use. I'll pay practically any price to get steel products that were not made in China.

Re:Quality?

[evilviper]

but the 'quality' is up to the level that majority of the world uses it.

The majority of the world uses it not because it's quality, but because it's much cheaper, and people have been lulled/tricked into not considering quality anymore.

Check out which piece of electronic in your home is not made in China.

The answer will always be: "Every piece that lasts more than 2 years"

Re:Quality?

[hustlebird]

Funny you mention that actually. I ordered an iPod Nano just a few weeks ago. When apple sent me the tracking number, I looked it up. It was shipped directly from China. I have to agree that quality is just what you want it.

Re:Quality?

[shoemaker251]

...but 'made in China' and 'quality product' rarely appear in the same paragraph...

That may have been true in the past, but going forward China will increasingly be used as a low-cost platform for producing high-tech products. To borrow from Thomas Friedman, China is no longer content to "race us to the bottom" by producing socks and t-shirts. They want to race us to the top, by producing many of the consumer electronics and even software that we use in the US and around the world. Think I'm wrong? Look at Lenovo's recent acquisition of IBM's computer division. Most of the parts for the ThinkPad were already produced in China anyway.

In the 1950's, we laughed at Japan's crappy knock-offs of products like televisions, radios, and cameras. Japan finally came into their own and we don't think twice about buying a TV, computer, or car from Fujitsu, Sony, or Honda. In the future, the same will probably be true for China.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's your problem. According to Google, Taiwan is a province of China.

Re:Quality?

[branteaton]

What is the brand? I've been waiting a long time to get a cello, and would like to get a good one (for the money) first time out.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was not too long ago, in historical terms, that China and Japan were known as the source of the finest handmade items in the world. Europeans didn't risk their necks and their investments going all the way to China for junk. Made in China was not merely a mark of something being exotic, but a mark of quality absolutely unobtainable from anywhere else. Quality that you could see and feel.

I don't disagree with this, but would suggest that just maybe they could quit working their production folks 27 days a month 10-12 hours a day to pump out the volume of product (although that was the figure I read about for the electronics production people).

Oh yeah, that's their "competitive advantage"..

Re:Quality?

[Nightspirit]

Hey, do you know what brand?

I'm looking to pick up a student violin.

Re:Quality?

[grumpyman]

The majority of the world uses it not because it's quality, but because it's much cheaper, and people have been lulled/tricked into not considering quality anymore.

True, but 'much cheaper' or 'chinese made' does not automatically implies 'poor quality'. This is the sweeping statement that the original poster made which I don't agree.

Moreover, we have to wonder why so much stuff that we use these days are made in China. Different people have different perception on quality, and I won't say that most of the Chinese stuff are "quality-made" per se. However, these Chinese made stuff has to reach a certain quality level in order be adopted so widely and used everyday by so many in household or business - and I dare to say, some of them depend on these Chinese made stuff. If they are so bad quality that will work for a moment and next moment it ceases to work, then I'll bet everybody will yell and holla about it, and refuse to buy anything made in China. I think it was like that maybe 5 - 10 years ago, and it's a fun joke about 'stuff made in China', but now apparently that's less and less of the case.

Re:Quality?

[UpLateDrinkingCoffee]

I'd like tho know what the brand is also...

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is precisely why the quality of goods made in China is, in general, atroucious; the concern for product quality is purely profit-driven. The deep corruption in Chinese business and civil society means that non-profit concerns such as the ramifications of poor product quality on the consumer are relagated into total irrelevancy.

I've seen quality goods made in China. I've also seen bad goods made elsewhere. But people pointing to rain-clouds in the sahara doesn't mean it receives as much rain as Scotland. One after another, when a company changes its site of production or sourcing to China, the quality crashes. Profit wins out every time, it just wins further in the places with a corrupter business culture.

Re:Quality?

[slowmovingtarget76]

When I was a kid my parents bought me a Lark violin. It's a cheap violin made in China. It served me well for about 8 years until I got to highschool. Our orchestra teacher was a professional bassist in several symphonies. He took one look at my violin from across the room and said that I needed to get a better instrument. My second violin was a Suzuki. It had more heft, sounded richer, and cost about 8 times as much as the Lark. Still, for a student violin I don't see anything wrong with the Lark that I had and their manufacturing may have come a long way since the mid 80's.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer will always be: "Every piece that lasts more than 2 years"

Nice racist touch there. Funny thing is, people used to say that about Japanese goods a few decades ago (not to mention Taiwan and Korea). Now look at who makes high-end electronics.

Re:Quality?

[B11]

True, in many consumers mind, "quality" is usually not associated with "Made in China," because it used to be very true, but this is becoming less and less the case.

Even things made in countries known for quailty are being made with components made in China.

Re:Quality?

[Prophet of Nixon]

Nixon curses the Red Sox to an eternity of inferior baseball!

Nixon decrees that Saddam will be convicted, for all infidels who do not believe in Nixon are crooks!

Nixon will play Duke Nukem on his shiny new Playstation 3!

Nixon will return!

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

wanna contribute to the fund to pay those guys to chill out then?

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely right now the quality is not good, but you think in the future Chinese product will have the same quality as it is right now ? Wait until a Chinese car company comes in and buy GM and Ford all together (just like the Japanese comes in and buys American properties). It would be fun to see who laugh at who, you chauvinist pig.

Re:Quality?

[Jherek Carnelian]

When he picked it up and started to play his first comment was, "Niiiiiiiice bow!"

Well of course it was a nice bow. The Chinese have been bowing for millenia, I expect they've got the whole thing down pat. Now, if he had said, "nice handshake!" That would be something else.

Re:Quality?

[Prophet of Nixon]

Nixon eats Chinese steel for its crunchy shell and chewy filling!



A bit more seriously though, I've never had a problem with Chinese tool parts. If anything, I've had worse luck with American ones. Granted, I only tend to overuse and break drill bits (and poor knives, never buy a CRKT knife), and I try to avoid metal-work, so there very well could be far worse quality outside of what I've seen.

And what sorts of steel products, not made in China, do you need? Nixon can supply some, at practically any price*.

*Any price a minimum of 100% above value. Nixon is not a crook.

Re:Quality?

[flibble-san]

Actually, Chinese hardly ever bow. Maybe you are thinking of Japanese who almost always bow.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes and no. Any entity can make higher or lower quality products, but some of their products are not yet quite equal to other "foreign" products. Just last winter, I bought a couple of racing sails, one American, one a chinese knockoff of the same sail. The American sail was clearly a better sail, better fit and finish, etc. The Chinese sail was half the price though, and for practice, worked out fine (although it did develop a rip which needed to be repaired). But, for racing, the american sail went on.

Re:Quality?

[Vegeta99]

And guess what? The cattle don't want quality. buy it cheap, break it, buy it again. China seems to see that.

Re:Quality?

[cloudmaster]

Strangely, I've never thought of including a Violin in my list of things that I'd take with me when I go camping or to the beach. In any event, when one becomes that informal with a violin (banging around? Ack!), isn't one required to start referring to it as a "fiddle"? :)

Re:Quality?

[kfg]

Palatino VN-850. Greatmusicproductsonline.com has 'em for $540 with US shipping. Don't know 'em. Don't know if I can trust 'em. Price seems awfully low. Instrumentpro.com has 'em for $645. Known trustworthy.

It'll cost you a bit more to have it tweaked, for that price. You'll probably want to replace the bridge right off, or at least I did in the violin. Have the pegs properly fitted by a luthier which'll be about $80, it's fussy hand work with special tools. Save you all sorts of grief tuning. If you haven't played string before get a set of D'Addario Helicore strings for it, $90. For bottom price you don't get the best strings. Better they cut corners there than in the instrument itself. Live with the original strings until you start to sound ok, say at about six months, then swap them out for the Helicores. Have a luthier do this and set your soundpost at the same time.

You won't believe it's the same instrument after this.

If you can find them in a shop in your area sold properly set up from the start that would be the way to go. Higher sticker price, but it'll average out to about the same as buying online and paying to have the setup done. Plus you get to try a couple out to find the one you like. Every string instrument sounds a bit different. They aren't like factory guitars. Ordering can be a bit of a pig in a poke thing.

But then so is finding a shop selling student instruments that really knows how to do a proper setup. 'Fraid I can't help you there.

If things work out well for you let me know sometime. If they don't. . .hey, what the hell you taking advice from some dork on Slashdot for, are you crazy?

KFG

Re:Quality?

[cloudmaster]

Try a wrench. Get a wrench from any reputable truck-based tool seller (Snap-On, Mac, Matco, etc) and use it on a fastener that's rusted / seized. The first thing you'll notice is that your hand doesn't hurt when you pull on it - they've actually thought about egronomics. The next thing you'll notice is that, if there was any chance at all of the fastener coming out, you've just done it. A cheap chinese tool, the likes of which one might obtain through Harbor Freight and friends, will have either broken or rounded off the fastener. At the very least, your hand will hurt (several cheap "made in the USA" tools do that, too - as do the old-style Craftsman wrenches).

I own several Harbor Freight tools. They're things like hammers (heavy thing on a stick - hard to mess up) and angle grinders (having 10 cheap angle grinders with different stones is more convenient than one expensive one that I have to change all the time). My main HVLP paint gun is a Harbor Freight model, and it has laid down some really nice looking paint jobs without costing me a fortune. But precision instruments, like a torque wrench, a regular combination wrench, a pry bar - basically anything that will cause a big problem if it fails - those always come from a supplier who makes stuff in the USA - or at least used to. :)

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was not too long ago, in historical terms, that China and Japan were known as the source of the finest handmade items in the world. Europeans didn't risk their necks and their investments going all the way to China for junk. Made in China was not merely a mark of something being exotic, but a mark of quality absolutely unobtainable from anywhere else. Quality that you could see and feel.

Yeah, they used to make these really high quality fancy dishes the Europeans really loved.
There was even a special word they used for it, hmm, what was that word again?

Re:Quality?

[Shadow Wrought]

Yeah! Nixon 2008: Tanned. Rested. Ready.

Re:Quality?

[kfg]

Strangely, I've never thought of including a Violin in my list of things that I'd take with me when I go camping or to the beach.

I'm a bit, ummmmmmmmm, "different." There's nothing like sitting on the rock dome of Mt. Pharoh and playing to Schroon Lake far below. I didn't say it was good thing. Just that there's nothing like it. The rest of the world should be greatful for that.

In any event, when one becomes that informal with a violin (banging around? Ack!), isn't one required to start referring to it as a "fiddle"?

The difference between a fiddle and a violin:

It's a fiddle if you're playing it. It's a violin if you're selling it.

A violin travels in a "case." A fiddle travels in a "gunny sack."

Nobody cries when you spill beer on a fiddle. Unless it's a Guinness. For the beer.

KFG

Re:Quality?

[kfg]

. . .what was that word again?

Japan?

Maybe I'm thinking of something different. :)

KFG

Re:Quality?

[kfg]

Palatino VN-850. Current going rate online $240 with shipping (I got a bit of a deal), pretty much everywhere. The one piece back VN-855'll go ya $260. Won't sound any better. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice.

See comments on the cello above, only substitute Thomastic Dominants for the Helicores if you haven't played before, unless you intend to play oldtimey/bluegrass. For really whiney fiddle sound go with Super Sensitive Red Labels or D'Addario J90s, which'll also save you a few bucks.

KFG

Re:Quality?

[the morgawr]

Peter Drucker, Joseph M. Juran, and W. Edwards Deming warned the US that that would happen. It within the realm of posibility that China will do to Japan, Korea, and Taiwan what they did to the US.

If they manage to accomplish it though, it will likely destroy what's left of communism in their country. Henry Kissinger has found that in communist countries, hardliners tend to follow reformers. If this rule holds true for China, it would mean that the next leader of the PRC will turn the country back. I personally think that China will be the exception to the rule and will continue down the road to a free market, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Re:Quality?

[bommai]

One of my TVs is made in Malaysia (Toshiba), while the other is made in the USA (Sanyo). My rice cooker is made in Japan (it is a fancy one), Denon Receiver (Japan), Toshiba DVD Player (SD9200 - Japan), Klipsch Speakers (USA) and errr iPod (China) - damn...

Re:Quality?

[Hiro Antagonist]

Few Westerners know the difference, sadly.

One of the guys I see often at my climbing gym is from Taiwan. A few days ago, he came in with a T-shirt that had the Red Bull logo on it, and a bunch of stuff in Thai. So, I asked him if he picked up his Thai Red Bull shirt here, and he was stunned that I even recognized the language.

Apparently, a few people had asked him if it was Italian. Some thought French. One guy asked if it was German.

Goes to show how little some people know.

Re:Quality?

[kfg]

There have been months right here in America when I wished I could work less than 27 days, 10-12 hours a day.

Oh, yeah, that's called "February."

Don't forget that America built it's own industrial wealth in the first place with children literally chained to machines. It's easy enough looking down with contempt from the lofty hights acheived by the same methods.

Oh, yeah, and on the broken backs of coolies. They're ancestor worshipers. They haven't forgotten, even if you have.

Disgraceful Persecution of a Boy
To the Person Sitting in Darkness

Payback's gonna be a bitch. I'm not looking forward to it, but I can't honestly say we don't have it coming.

KFG

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Payback's gonna be a bitch. I'm not looking forward to it, but I can't honestly say we don't have it coming.

Who's this "we," kemosabe?

I wasn't there when the exploiting took place. I have no intention to let others bitchslap me for things people here did two hundred years ago, and over which I have no control.

If you feel guilty, send a check and leave me out of it.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a biiiiiiiiig frickin' dragon that's awakening; and it wants its reputation back.

Chinese dragons are very different from European dragons. For one, they're mostly benign and bring life-giving rain (and other natural phenomena) as a gift.

That many Americans view both China and Dragons in a peculiarly Western way -- dangerous, aggressive, fire-breathing, job-and-maiden-stealing baddies -- is probably not a coincidence. No wonder the Chinese Dragon wants its reputation back!

I humbly offer this link as a step forward.

Re:Quality?

[Qzukk]

One after another, when a company changes its site of production or sourcing to China, the quality crashes.

Probably because they said "Here, make this widget as cheaply as you can". If you're going to outsource to China, your business is certainly not operating in the "lets spend any more money than we need to" mode.

Re:Quality?

[the arbiter]

You'll love this; I used to work for the Palatino importer. I was the Q/A guy :)

You're damn right they're good violins. Unlike some of the Chinese factories that use whoever they can pull off the street for labor, the folks making your violin have quite a bit of experience, many of them having apprenticed in either Europe or Japan. They're good guys and I'd put the instrument up against anything European that's four times the price.

Sure, you've got to swap out a few cheap parts to really get the thing up to snuff, but so what? Better to get the best instrument for the money than an inferior one that has primo strings, etc on it.

People who are still living in a world two decades past think the Chinese make crappy products. They can, if that's what you want. But if you want world-class quality and are willing to pay a little more, they can easily do that too. Two more years and they'll be (at least as far as musical instruments go) making stuff that competes head to head with anybody. And they're doing it at a quarter of the price.

For the cello guy...they make a good cello as well. Spend the most money that you can on it up front, and if you live in a dry part of the country for God's sake get a humidifier and use it, or your cello will crack. Any cello younger than about twenty years is in serious danger of splitting from humidity issues unless you compensate for it. After about the twenty year mark (YMMV) the wood stabilizes quite a bit and it's less of a concern. And if you travel get a hard case...I've seen far too many instruments wrecked by guys who thought the bags would keep it safe.

Re:Quality?

[Taladar]

Actually the products that last almost exactly a few days beyond the warranty are better quality (as the manufacturer sees it) than the ones that last forever.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they manage to accomplish it though, it will likely destroy what's left of communism in their country. Henry Kissinger has found that in communist countries, hardliners tend to follow reformers.

Doesn't your two sentence imply the opposite conclusions? The first that in their embrace of capitalism, communism will be destroyed, the second is that will wind back the clock back to communism? Kissinger isn't the most unbiased and independent observer on what communist countries will and won't do in the future anyway.

Look at China over the past 30 years. China has been opening up. Human rights has improved, markedly. Poverty has decreased, drastically. The country is becoming westernised. If US was Sino'ised to the same extent, there'd be political uproar. There's absolutely no evidence that China is going to turn back the clock. Could it happen, yeah I guess it could, but trying to isolate China by applying a black/white measure to them could simply force them to become hardline.

Is it going to happen as fast as you want, probably not, but it takes a long time to turn around a country with a billion people. You have to remember that Europe took centuries to evolute their political system. US was essentially "gifted" with the stability of Europe and still took a few hundred years. Things take time, people need patience. Even Japan and Taiwan today aren't models of democracy and will need further time to improve.

Re:Quality?

[the morgawr]

Doesn't your two sentence imply the opposite conclusions?

I should have put a "however".

There's absolutely no evidence that China is going to turn back the clock.

I don't see any evidence either. In fact I consider this very promising. If hardliners had the upper hand you would have expected Hong Kong to have slipped.

But, Kissinger pointed out that if a hardline did not take over and quash the reforms, it would be a world first and that some in the CCP might resist the change that would erode their power. i.e. the situation is delicate and bad U.S. policy could screw it up. He knows a whole lot more about this than I do, so it seemed worth pointing out that an "expert" wasn't in total agreement.

Is he unbiased? Of course not! Chairman Mao said Kissinger was his favorate American. That doesn't necessarily speak well of him...although it indicates that he is very familiar with the Chineese.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

And two world wars on top of that...

Re:Quality?

[kfg]

You'll love this; I used to work for the Palatino importer. I was the Q/A guy :)

Well Jeezum Crow, ya meet all sorts on this here Slashdot thingy, don'cha?

Better to get the best instrument for the money than an inferior one that has primo strings, etc on it.

Precisely.

At this point I amount to an unofficial Palatino endorser.

The instrument is too good for what I bought it for. I'd hate to see anything happen to it, so I got ahold of an old Steiner copy for that and the Palatino became my stage ax so I could leave the "good" stuff home and not risk it. Funny thing is, even when I'm home all the more valuable old stuff tends to sit in their cases on the shelf and when I want to play I go right for the Palatino most of the time.

Yeah, it's still a bit green, but coming on nicely and I can't wait to hear what it sounds like in 20 years, assuming I make it that long myself. I'm older than a couple of American states as it is and not, as they say, gettin' any younger. When the hell did that happen?

One of the first projects for the cello is possibly going to be recording on a Will Ackerman production. The boys in the group want me in with that and a bit o' Irish flute. No accounting for taste I guess.

KFG

Re:Quality?

[arose]

Italian? I seriously hope it was written with latin letters for the one who asked that, but I suspect it wasn't...

Re:Quality?

[arose]

Then they really do want their reputation back. :-)

Re:Quality?

[kfg]

When I was a small child one of my favorite books was "Mei Ling Flies a Kite." It is the story of a young girl who, with her family, makes and flies a dragon kite. I have always loved Chinese dragons, and when I went to the pediatricians always tried to get "The Dragon Room" (He had a Chinese dragon hanging from the ceiling).

The book was illustrated entirely with photographs. I cannot find any reference to it through Google. One of these days I'll have to dig through boxes and see if it's still around.

Interestingly, there was a book published in 2002 with painted illustrations called "Kite Flying," the story of how Mei-Mei and her family make and fly a dragon kite.

Go figure.

KFG

Re:Quality?

[ross.w]

$200US? Someone made a tidy profit on that. I bought my son a 1/8th size to learn to play on in Shanghai. I paid the equivalent of about $60 Australian for it. When my son outgrew it and moved up to a 1/4 size I sold in on EBay for about A$150.

I agree with your assessment of their quality. I can't fault the workmanship, and the sound seemed fine, the limitations of a 6yo at preliminary grade level not withstanding.

Re:Quality?

[branteaton]

Thank you for the tips. I am an absolute novice, musically, but have wanted to get into it for the past couple of decades. Now that my wife and I are finished birthing sons, I am hoping to stabilize my schedule and fit in some cello lessons ;-)

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a biiiiiiiiig frickin' dragon that's awakening; and it wants its reputation back.

It does, and it's polluting the ever-living fuck out of itself to get it. Long term? Unsustainable.

Re:Quality?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Actually, Chinese hardly ever bow. Maybe you are thinking of Japanese who almost always bow.

Yeah, they bow their asses off to everyone. But based on my thorough research which consists of watching a lot of HK movies, it seems like the Chinese tend to bow to those of higher social rank.

Re:Quality?

[evilviper]

Nice racist touch there.

I see nothing at all racist about what I said. I didn't say that Asians were incapable of producing good products, or anything similarly racists. I'm merely commenting on my own observations, that every product I've seen that is comming out of China these days is very low quality.

Now look at who makes high-end electronics.

Okay, then let's say that some-time, in years to come, the Chinese could start making high-quality products. Good for them. That does not change the fact that, right now, their products are rather low quality.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Japan spent about a century getting beat up.

Yeah, ask the Koreans about how badly they beat up the Japanese during the 1910-1945 occupation, or ask the survivors of Nanjing about how they showed the Japanese by tricking them into gang raping their fellow villagers.

Dumbest statement ever.

The question is...

[Jupix]

WHY? What's wrong with uniform standards for the whole world? Why can't I just buy stuff from where I want to buy it?

Re:The question is...

[Anonymous Coward]

'Cause that would destroy the whole black market thing... not that that's part of China's economy, no siree...

Re:The question is...

[dozer]

What's wrong with uniform standards?

License fees.

It's really a shame when a standard requires very non-trivial licensing. Shouldn't standards be usable by anybody for anything? But somehow high-paid lawyers got mixed in and now it's a mess. I aplaud the Chinese for trying to avoid it altogether.

I expect the Chinese aren't too happy about some other mandates too.

Re:The question is...

[JWW]

WHY? What's wrong with uniform standards for the whole world?

Three letters... DRM. Thats whats wrong.

Hopefully the Chinese standard will be exactly like HD-DVD, only without any DRM.

Re:The question is...

[Daedius]

The answer is simple, China wants to take advantage of its 1 billion plus market to gain huge foothold in the next world cd format and also solve piracy issues at the exact same moment. When you are Chinese government in ABSOLUTE control of the masses, you can do shit like that. Get used to it, because I have a feeling we are going to be seeing alot more repeats of this type of move from China in the decades to come.

Re:The question is...

[shokk]

What makes you think that a product that 1 billion people use cannot be considered a standard on its own? Why does something have to be produced with the approval of the rest of the world, where there is a real chance that this thing could be adopted on top of all the other many formats. Honestly, with all the CD and DVD formats, what is one more to pack into all-in-one readers and burners these days?

Re:The question is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Royalties on HD-DVD and Blu-ray go to Japanese companies.

It doesn't really matter anyway thanks to region coding.

Re:The question is...

[Squalish]

Mod parent up please - the most sensical thing I've read here.

Patents?

[jsrjsr]

"based on but incompatible with HD DVD"

I'm wondering how they're going to avoid the patents involved (after all, their stated reason for doing this is to avoid the licensing fees).

Re:Patents?

[Anonymous Coward]

Err, by ignoring them, I should imagine.

They're a big country, they can do what they like.

Re:Patents?

[c0l0]

Well, China's national market for digital entertainment is "pretty big" already, and subjected to grow significantly the next years. China can afford not to care about certain issues outside its legislative power, like the US-american patent system, for instance (or human rights, as we're being shown again and again). They'll just stay "local" with their format, and everything's still just fine for them with about 1 billion potential customers at hand.

Re:Patents?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm wondering how they're going to avoid the patents involved (after all, their stated reason for doing this is to avoid the licensing fees).

Perhaps you should stick a sign above your bathroom mirror: AS AMERICA DOES NOT RULE THE WORLD, COUNTRIES OTHER THAN AMERICA DO NOT HAVE TO ADHERE TO AMERICAN LAWS?

Re:Patents?

[Luscious868]

Perhaps you should stick a sign above your bathroom mirror: AS AMERICA DOES NOT RULE THE WORLD, COUNTRIES OTHER THAN AMERICA DO NOT HAVE TO ADHERE TO AMERICAN LAWS?

Perhaps you should stick a sign above your bathroom mirror: SINCE THE REST OF THE WORLD IS A BAD JOKE, COUNTRIES THAT DO NOT YIELD TO AMERICA ARE INSIGNIFICANT AND UTTERLY UNIMPORTANT. SEE ANY MEMBER NATION OF THE EU FOR AN EXAMPLE.

Re:Patents?

[TheGavster]

No one has to adhere to the laws the US sets down. However, many nations enjoy trading with the US, and a stipulation of that trade is often that you can't make knock off versions of patented/copyrighted US goods. No one *forces* anyone into trade agreements.

Re:Patents?

[VJ42]

Since when did the world's largest trading block become "INSIGNIFICANT AND UTTERLY UNIMPORTANT"? I think you'll find that the US of A will have to play by EU rules just as much as the EU has to play by US ones.

Re:Patents?

[VON-MAN]

No no no, you don't respond to a troll by being a troll.

Re:Patents?

[jsrjsr]

Then why are they concerned about the licensing fees for the current standard? Maybe because they want to sell their stuff outside China? Maybe because they've signed treaties agreeing to honor the patent laws of other countries?

Re:Patents?

[romeo_in_blk_jeans]

You know how the customer is always right? Yeah, well, here's a scary thought: American's are the world's great consumers. Our thirst for "things" knows no bounds. Until that changes, we're your customer too.

Sucks, don't it? :)

Re:Patents?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the EU is truly as one-minded as the US and never gets bogged down with inter-member bickering.

Re:Patents?

[Jesus_666]

There's the difference: A customer is a person who might give you money if your product/service is good enough and you treat him well. A consumer is a mindless money-spending machine that will buy anything if the media tells him to. A customer expects you to be friendly towards him in order to make business with you. A consumer is expected to fork over his cash without caring if he needs the stuff or how he is being treated.

The fact that customers seem to degrade into consumers in large numbers is one of the scarier things about today's society.

they already have one

[crabpeople]

its called VCD :P

Re:they already have one

[Anonymous Coward]

...as in Very Crappy Disc!

China being innovative

[thammoud]

I think they will sell one or two to the families of the engineers that come up with this garbage.

If based on, but incompatible means...

[Stonent1]

That it is HD-DVD but without DRM. I fully support this effort!

Re:If based on, but incompatible means...

[TheRaven64]

What it probably means is that it uses HD-DVD disks, but a different encoding. I would imagine that they are picking something that doesn't require the payment of licensing fees to foreign interests. HD-DVD specifies things like MPEG-4 and (I think - I can't remember if it made it into the final standard) WMV. If they used a home-grown CODEC then Chinese player manufacturers wouldn't have to pay US corporations (e.g. Microsoft, Dolby) to produce their players, even if they wish to sell them in the American market. This could potentially dramatically reduce the amount of money that flows from China to the US.

Note that this isn't conceptually new. It was originally announced at least a year ago as a DVD competitor. The news seems to be that it is now targeting HD instead of SD.

Re:If based on, but incompatible means...

[Anonymous Coward]

love your sig! finally something that has meaning


YTARY!

Re:If based on, but incompatible means...

[Fissure_FS2]

Maybe now there'll be a use for Theora!

Hmm...

[burtdub]

"the new standard will be based on but incompatible with HD DVD"

Then where will Americans get their $2 bootleg DVDs?

Re:Hmm...

[someone1234]

They will buy a chinese DVD player. Clever chinese, heh?

Re:Hmm...

[Eccles]

Clever chinese, heh?

BLOODNOK: You Chinese think of everything
MORIARTY: But I'm not Chinese!
BLOODNOK: Then you must have forgotten something! You should be more careful...

Re:Hmm...

[Txiasaeia]

I know you're being funny, but what does this mean for film makers outside of China? Will the Chinese develop a player that can play several formats, or will Chinese consumers be unable to watch Hollywood films at all?

Re:Hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sign up for Netflix, buy a 100-pack of DVD+R's and visit Doom9 religiously.

Re:Hmm...

[Guppy06]

Mexico, of course!

Re:Hmm...

[gutnor]

Another question,

will Hollywood want to have China consumers watch their films ... Last time, it was US, EU companies that were trying to set foot in China at all cost ( see Google ), the opposite on the other hand does not seem an issue for China ( see the recent clothes importation frenzy in EU, where China cool down just to please EU )

Re:Hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just an ignorant ./er but I sould expect it will work just like VCD (you've got to figure the studio's looooved VCD): almost every player will support it out of the box. If you buy your disks from $CHAIN_RETAILER you get the "official" DRM-up-the-hoohoo version of the disk. If you buy the same content from the Hong Kong street market, it'll come on one of these DVDs with no region coding, no DRM and most importantly no chance that Sony has decided that the content will only play in 2008 Sony-branded players.

Personally, I know which door I'm choosing...

Good luck, China.

[djdole]

Good luck getting anyone to care. If it were Japan with Sony's backing, then ok.
But China....um, no.

*flips over a DVD (from the future)* "Made in China"
Unlikely
HIGHLY Unlikely

Re:Good luck, China.

[djdole]

China's DVD = Videocasette

/Joking!
//Kinda

Re:Good luck, China.

[grumpyman]

Dude, China has a big market for media consumption. If the Chinese entertainment industry forces its way to use a new format, other big consumer electronics companies or foreign entertainment companies must pay attention. Sony doesn't have to back it, but it'll lose a huge market.

Re:Good luck, China.

[node 3]

*flips over a DVD (from the future)* "Made in China"
Unlikely
HIGHLY Unlikely

I think you may be right. It'll definitely say "Made in USA".

Of course, it'll be written in Chinese. And we'll all be able to read it. Fluently.

Re:Good luck, China.

[shokk]

I, for one, welcome my new Mandarin masters.
Wo doong putonghua!

Re:Good luck, China.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ni hao!

Wo huanying xinxing putonghua ba.

Re:Good luck, China.

[ChocoBean]

LOL

I wonder how many other slashdotters understand that, though.

he said "i know mandarin", eh?

Re:Good luck, China.

[shokk]

Yeah, one of the few sentences I gleaned from the first tape of my Pimsler Mandarin casettes. I think one of the other replies before you had the same set since he quoted lines from the next lesson. I like learning languages and figure it will be good to know in the coming decades, just like Japanese was vogue in the 80s.

Re:Good luck, China.

[shokk]

Keshie wo schwada pu how.
Ni shi chungkworyen ma?
Wo shi meikworyen.

Gawd that's gotta be really badly put together.

Re:Good luck, China.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ni shi zhong guo ren ma? (I guess you meant)
Bu shi. Wo shi ying guo ren. (English)
I couldn't get the first sentence. I've been taking evening classes in Mandarin for about four weeks.

Re:Good luck, China.

[shokk]

Check out chinesepod.com if you're into podcasting. They have 17 lessons online and they're in a pretty nice teching format. Very loose and fluid style. They're adding new lessons every few days.

Works for me

[overshoot]

I somehow doubt that they're going to bother with user-hostile crap.

Considering the number of high-quality films coming from China and Bollywood lately, I wonder if there'll be subtitles?

Re:Works for me

[VJ42]

How can you put the words Bollywood and quality in the same sentance? And I can watch them in the original Hindi.
;-)

Re:Works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

The DVD player doesn't need to be hostile; if you don't do with your DVD as you are told they'll just shoot you. If you're lucky, they'll spot you the bullet.

Re:Works for me

[overshoot]

How can you put the words Bollywood and quality in the same sentance? And I can watch them in the original Hindi.

That's your problem. Like some of the early Japanese imports to the USA, they're better if you can't follow the dialog.

Re:Works for me

[VJ42]

If you say so, despite being "of Indian origin" (as UK government forms designate me), I can't stand most Bollywood films; there's only about three storlines ever been made, the rest of the huge numbers of films that Bollywood pumps out(the produce many more than hollywood every year) are just slight varients. Unfortunatly they go for quantity rather than quality in the hope of some good films being made. Actors are often performing for 2 or even 3 films at the same time. Can you imagine a hollywood acor doing that and putting top performances in for both?

Sorry I seem to have gone abit OTT. ;p

Re:Works for me

[scatters]

The fact that they don't appeal to your tastes does not indicate that there isn't a substantial market for them elsewhere.

Re:Works for me

[ChocoBean]

there's only about three storlines ever been made

But that's what makes them good!! I sometimes watch them just for the heck of it. They are at least more entertaining than a lot of Hong Kong movies I happen upon. Pukatronics to those. In HK we have movies with NO story line and just your flavour of the week pop stars thrown in. Meanwhile the Bollywood movies I've sort of seen have pretty people, beautiful clothes and happy music and dance. O_o

but either way China and India already have their big huge market. If China is going to come up with some region-free DVDs I'm all for that!

unless of course all that's going to be on there is Hong Kong movies....*grumbles*

Re:Works for me

[overshoot]

Where did you get

The fact that they don't appeal to your tastes?

Do you have the players straight here?

Re:Works for me

[scatters]

Sorry, I made the assumption that you were posting another "not made in America, ergo I don't understand it, ergo it's crap" comment wrapped in subtle sarcasm. I was wrong apparently...

Re:Works for me

[overshoot]

I made the assumption that you were posting another "not made in America, ergo I don't understand it, ergo it's crap" comment

No, I actually meant it. Face it -- some films have crappy dialog but are entertaining regardless. Bollywood seems to produce a slew of flicks that are fun to watch when you don't understand the lines (as was also true of many Japanese films "back in the day"). I take it from those who do understand them that the dialog doesn't always contribute positively ...

Good

[Work Account]

All the movies Asia steal and pirate are from America.

I hope they enjoy watching kung fu flicks 24/7 ;)

Re:Good

[stoph ct]

ah, because it's magically impossible to convert between disc formats...

They already have SVCD

[Anonymous Coward]

Another open format, SVCD practically every Chinese player supports it, they'll just add SHDVCD to the mix.

For all the crap Hollywood talks, they release all their movies on VCD because thats what Asia uses as its main video format.

Re:They already have SVCD

[adavies42]

Is there a standard yet for putting SVCD-quality content on DVD-ROMs? It seems it would be an easy way to double or triple the amount of video with only a small hit in quality.

Dammit

[Gogo0]

I buy a lot of Chinese DVDs.
No, not the bootleg kind -the legally manufactured and purchased new kind (yes, these exist).

So am I going to have to get a third DVD player for my home theatre exclusively to watch Chinese Cinema?
Crap, so in stead of watching good foreign films I will be stuck watching the effed-up American remakes. If anyone thinks that The Departed will be anything like Infernal Affairs, theyve got another thing coming...

Re:Dammit

[Ced_Ex]

So am I going to have to get a third DVD player for my home theatre exclusively to watch Chinese Cinema?
Crap, so in stead of watching good foreign films I will be stuck watching the effed-up American remakes. If anyone thinks that The Departed will be anything like Infernal Affairs, theyve got another thing coming...

You're not going to have to buy another DVD player. A Chinese player will probably just stuff all the formats into one unit.

Infernal Affairs... one of my all time favourites.

Microsoft supplys computer chips?

[the_2nd_coming]

huh?

Does the writer think that intel is owned by MS?

Re:Microsoft supplys computer chips?

[Anonymous Coward]

TFA says:

as well as Intel Corp. and Microsoft Corp., the leading suppliers of chips and software for most of the world's personal computers.

anyone with a basic understanding of the english language knows that means intel is a chip supplier and MS is a software supplier.

dumbass, learn to read.

Re:Microsoft supplys computer chips?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but we here on /. think Intel is "Pwned" by M$, or somesuch.

Re:Microsoft supplys computer chips?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the text was a little weirdly written, but it said Microsoft and Intel and then said software and computer chips. Microsoft = software Intel = computer chips

Re:Microsoft supplys computer chips?

[TheGavster]

Intel Corp. and Microsoft Corp., the leading suppliers of chips and software for most of the world's personal computers.

Chinese Censorship

[Scoria]

The Chinese government will certainly benefit from this. If the hardware sold in China is no longer capable of playing foreign discs, then the Chinese government will have absolute control of what can be viewed by most of the Chinese people.

If the Chinese government doesn't like a political documentary, they can simply refuse to release it domestically. The Great Firewall will prevent you from downloading a copy, and smuggling a foreign copy in will no longer be an option. You won't be able to play it, after all.

Re:Chinese Censorship

[ngr8]

It would, of course, be gauche to say "ME TOO!".

This begins to complete a package for the Great Wall: get the offshore search engines to "private label" Internet search, so no nasty ProtestorTankPic.jpg can be found, so that Chinese bloggers/reporters can be turned in, and hardware-based media (DVD) can be private labeled for "safe" domestic distribution in China.

Look: its bad enough that the Wal*Marts have changed the content of CDs and what's on their magazine racks. This is a nation state, a growing and strong nation state, that is not exactly fighting the good fight.

So the above poster's onto a theme there: it's not about copyright or piracy, it's a control game. They may be fighting against entropy and innovation, but it is still a control of information game.

Ok. Time for decaf.

Re:Chinese Censorship

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes... Because we all know that the chinese all buy there DVDs from Amazon. Do you really think that the ones making copies right now won't be able to backup a DVD to the chinese format ?

It's not about control, it's about royalties.

Re:Chinese Censorship

[mickwd]

"...the Chinese government will have absolute control of what can be viewed by most of the Chinese people."

Hmmmmm.....control over what content can be viewed and by whom.....

Sounds like some sort of DRM scheme.

No-one would dream of trying anything like that in the free, capitalist west, now would they?

they set us up the DVD

[brainspank]

Do they really need a new format just to support Engrish subtitles?

Re:they set us up the DVD

[Anonymous Coward]

China != Japan.

Why not make one standard

[in-tech]

Why not make one standard for all of us? Now this is gonna be interesting. Marketplace ...

Re:Why not make one standard

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It is more profitable to take a cut from every DVD player sold than it is to just make DVD players based upon a common standard that have to actually compete based on quality and price. Thus, both the new standards and the regular DVD standard in the U.S. are patent encumbered and require licensing. China is not interested in paying extra fees just to have a player compatible with what particular companies are trying to push, thus a new (hopefully patent/licensing free standard). Considering China manufactures the majority of players anyway, it will be interesting to see if being an open standard, cheaper, and supported by the government of the manufacturer is enough for them to dictate a new format.

Seriously...

[TheRealMindChild]

... the rest of the world probably doesn't care. While China may be on the same physical planet as the rest of us, they arent playing on the same logical field. In terms of copywrite and intellectual property, we are completely seperate worlds, and I doubt either really cares about the other.

Re:Seriously...

[Baki]

China still has sound ideas w.r.t. intellectual property, namely that it is largely harmful. They will benefit from all wasted resources in the parts of the world obsessed with this evil concept, which is hostile to civilisation and development.

Re:Seriously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently China is the world that gets to use the word "copyright"...

Re:Seriously...

[Karma_fucker_sucker]

You bring up an interesting point. I was watching this marketing analyst on the Jim Lehrer News Hour the other day, and he said that the Chinese beleive that their world view is superior to everyone else's. As they become more powerfule, both economically and militarily, they are going to assert this view. I think we in the US have better enjoy our domination while is lasts. And make sure not to piss to many more people off - i.e. the Chinese.

Re:Seriously...

[Skye16]

Why enjoy it?

This is like saying "hey, have fun beating the shit out of your wife now, because in a few weeks, she's going to start beating the shit out of you". I posit the notion that beating the shit out of your wife - or "asserting your worldview" - is not something you should be enjoying. If you are, then you probably have psychological / social issues.

Re:Seriously...

[Reality Master 101]

China still has sound ideas w.r.t. intellectual property, namely that it is largely harmful.

Oh, please. You're not seriously suggesting that China has some well-reasoned philosophy regarding IP, implemented by wise leaders who have given long consideration to moral and ethical concerns?

The philosophy consists of certain people in China saying, "we can steal this, because no one can stop us." And their leaders simply do very little about it.

Re:Seriously...

[timeOday]

... the rest of the world probably doesn't care.

Doesn't China make most of the rest of the word's DVD players? Maybe they'll push to make this the standard here, too, so they don't have to pay so many royalties.

That would be fine with me. I'm all for direct importation of Chinese goods without ridiculous markups for the "American" brand-name. (See Nike and Levis). So long as I'm buying goods with my outsourcing-deflated wages, I'd like the opportunity to buy at equally deflated prices. I don't think the greedy American overlords who cut all their American workers add much value anyways.

Re:Seriously...

[Comboman]

Yes very different. The evil, communist, totalitarian Chinese government wants to have complete control over what their people see and hear.

...whereas the democratic, free-market, capitalist MPAA/RIAA want to have complete control over what their customers see and hear.

Re:Seriously...

[Baki]

yes, very pragmantic. they have the "wisdom" to put their own interests at first, instead of bowing to a so called superpower telling the rest of the world what to do.

indeed, i know they don't do it because of deep philosophical considerations w.r.t. intellectual property (as I would like, since I reject the whole concept as principle), but still I am glad that at least one significant power on the planet resists the current dreadful trend and does not allow themselves to be intimidated.

Re:Seriously...

[WhiteWolf666]

As china develops more intellectual property, you can bet your ass this is going to change.

Never forget that for the time being, the PRC maintains one of the world's foremost police systems.

When push comes to shove, if they decide it is in their interest to defend the IP, laws will be passed, and the police will crack down (similar to western countries).

Their lack of enforcement is lack of willpower, not lack of ability.

Oddly enough, as we see China continue to grow, and the inevitable free-trading of Yuan comes about, I suspect we'll see some companies relocate to other places in the world.

In the modern world, population has little to do with economic size. The condition of the population, currency conditions, and to a lesser extent, governmental support have FAR more to do with economic strength.

Japan went from bombed-out husk of a nation to economic superpower in 30 years.

China is going from backwards empire to economic powerhouse. The other asian tigers were doing the same thing.

I suspect, however, that as markets balance out some (but not all) of China's economic advantages, we'll see China's heavy handed politics start to be a problem.

Especially domestically; as long as growth rates remain extremely high, unrest remains minimal. But the Chinese bouregois are not meek; there are a lot of intelligent, proud, and wealthy people there they may not remain content with the political system.

China will play a siginificant role in the world economy. It's premature, however, to say that China will *be* the world economy.

Re:Seriously...

[Reality Master 101]

That's like saying that I'm just being "pragmatic" and "putting my own interests first" by breaking into houses and stealing from people.

You may reject the concept of intellectual property, but you don't need the concept of IP written into law to recognize that's it's morally and ethically indefensible to use something that someone else created in a way that they specifically ask you not to.

Just out of curiosity, do you reject the concept of open source software licenses as well?

Re:Seriously...

[Reality Master 101]

China is going from backwards empire to economic powerhouse. The other asian tigers were doing the same thing.

Hmm, I dunno. Seriously, people have been predicting the domination of China for literally a thousand years. They certainly *could* do it, but they are a very insulated culture.

As you say, Japan certainly did, but of course that took destroying their national psyche and rebuilding it in Western terms. And even so, they still don't have much of an entrepreneurial culture compared to the US (which is our great strength). I can't see China having any sort of entrepreurism any time soon.

Re:Seriously...

[WhiteWolf666]

Additionally; consider that china's growth rate has slowed down to 8% in 2005.

India, a higher population country, with a far lower GDP, has a growth rate of 6.5%

The U.S., a lower population country, with a somewhat higher GDP, has a growth rate of 4%, adjusted one point downwards for hurricane damage.

China is, and will continue to grow, as an economic powerhouse. It is misleading, however, to portray China as the empire of the future.

Re:Seriously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Enterprising Chinese... do you know Chinese diaspora in SE Asia are often compared to European Jews for their business acumen? Entrepreneurship definitely isn't something Chinese nation/culture lacks. Japanese and Koreans on the other hand...

Btw, "thousand years ago," Chinese were pretty dominant definitely in its neck of the wood and also comparatively with other parts of the world, but the world wasn't so connected as it is today. ^_^

Re:Seriously...

[wumingzi]

Oh, please. You're not seriously suggesting that China has some well-reasoned philosophy regarding IP, implemented by wise leaders who have given long consideration to moral and ethical concerns?

Well-reasoned in the sense that some uber-bright guy in Beijing promulgated a policy? No. Of course not.

You have thousands of years of culture that is based on two core principles that don't work really well with modern IP:

1) Value is to be found in things that you can drop on your foot. I remember having a discussion with the boss of a trading company about a system that would keep all his faxes digitized so that people could retrieve them from a database. I told him it would run on a server with a muscular hard drive, and I'd charge him about $30,000. The value of me spending 6 months working on this didn't matter. The fact that two office ladies would no longer be running around full time fetching faxes from The Big Room Of Old Faxes didn't matter. What mattered was he knew a pretty good PC from the electronics market was $1000 and I was charging him $29,000 more than that.

This is a particularly egregious example, but you run into this over and over.

2) In Chinese culture, copying is inherently better than writing your own stuff. The recipient of a traditional education will spend a huge portion of it memorizing, reciting, and rewriting the Analects, the Tang Poems, etc. If you decide to take up painting, you should perfect the style of an established master. Once you can do Su Han-Chen as well as Su Han-Chen did, and demonstrate as much to all and asunder, then and only then should you be doing anything clever and unique.

So no. It's not a well thought-out policy. Worse, it's 5000 years of "received wisdom" with all the inertia that comes with it.

Re:Seriously...

[ins0m]

And thus we begin to see where multilateral trade agreements (instead of half-assed bilaterals like NAFTA) might just be the salvation for the global market. Japan's still tied up in fixing their financial nightmares (finally down below 3% of loans in default in the Big Four, as opposed to the whopping 9% in 2001), Germany's still in EU hell (exports are up, but so is unemployment, and the tax wedge ~40% doesn't help domestic spending any), and the USA, well... I don't think the USA knows what to make of the H1B visa's influence on the pool of available thought-workers. Suffice it to say, it's inevitable that countries like China and India develop a burgeoning middle class, so FUD-spreading lazy-ass nationalists are going to have to adapt or die.

I, for one, welcome our new entrepreneurial overlords.

Re:Seriously...

[Anonymous Coward]

probably doesn't care

They have a billion potential customers. Even if half of them live in abject poverty, the other half makes the American market relatively irrelevant.

Next time you see something about yahoo or microsoft or google or any other company selling their soul to china, just remember that even if every single human in America boycotted it, they'd still have more customers than they had before.

The only reason why MS is behind HD-DVD

[varmittang]

Is because they put it in their Xbox360s. MS couldn't license or didn't want to pay to license the Sony Blue-Ray, so they had to go with HD-DVD to give more room for the programmers to give game content. If Blue-Ray becomes the standard, then the Xboxes that are coming out will only be game consoles, not home entertainment pieces. They would be forced out of the living room since DVDs would be Blue-Ray only, and wouldn't play though their Xbox consoles. This is why HD-DVD is so important to them, not because its better format.

Re:The only reason why MS is behind HD-DVD

[Prophet of Nixon]

Actually, they're putting neither into it. Since they do back HD-DVD, they've been talking releasing an Xbox360v2 with an HD-DVD drive, but I think they're really waiting to see which succeeds. Regardless, this does still hurt the 'home entertainment piece' potential of the first generation Xbox360, since it won't play any future format.

These next-generation consoles are boring anyway; I'm still trying to find an unscratched copy of R-Type Delta.

Re:The only reason why MS is behind HD-DVD

[nutshell42]

so they had to go with HD-DVD to give more room for the programmers to give game content.

Xbox360 games use DVDs.

Which is the reason MS supports HD-DVD. They've got nothing to lose. They announced their intent to think about the possibility to include an HD drive for movie playback at some time in the future or not. So if Blu-Ray wins big deal, MS simply puts a BR drive in their consoles. On the other hand if they can kill Blu-Ray, they negate one of the main advantages of the PS3 (i.e. the one that it is a HD player. Sony sold a lot of PS2s that way when stand-alone DVD players were still expensive) one Sony will use to justify the (supposedly) higher price of their console

Re:The only reason why MS is behind HD-DVD

[saj_s]

>> " Is because they put it in their Xbox360s."

Err...no. HD-DVD is not out until next year. Xbox360 will ship before Xmas with a DVD-ROM drive.

Re:The only reason why MS is behind HD-DVD

[no_opinion]

You are perpetuating the myth that DVD drives can play HD-DVD discs. They can't, unless you're talking about a hybrid disc (HD-DVD on one side, DVD on the other). Both blu-ray and HD-DVD can do hybrid discs. The fact that the xbox has a DVD drive has no relationship to whether it will play HD-DVD or not (that will be a function of the individual HD-DVD titles, and whether they're hybrid or not).

Re:The only reason why MS is behind HD-DVD

[nutshell42]

You are perpetuating the myth that DVD drives can play HD-DVD discs.

Could you show me the line where I state that nonsense? I specifically wrote that MS said they might start shipping HD-DVD drives in the future, why would they do that if you could play HD-DVDs in DVD drives?

Re:The only reason why MS is behind HD-DVD

[nutshell42]

Sorry, despite my sig that reply probably comes across as harsher than I intended it to be =)

I disagree

[Anonymous Coward]

China is the only country to make decent DVD players. Their players don't force you to watch commercials, they don't force macrovision on you, and they don't enforce region coding.

Re:I disagree

[macslut]

Yes, DVD players from China can be quite good for many reasons. I've bought several for myself and friends. My iPod Nano came from China (I tracked its shipment online the whole way). BUT... As USA Consumer #1, I'm not the one China needs to convince. China needs to convince Universal, Warner, Paramount, etc... Because as much as I might love a CH-DVD player, it's the discs that I really care about. While consumers may love complete lack of DRM, the studios have never met a DRM they didn't like...thus BD and HD-DVD are fighting over who can screw consumers the most with DRM features that the studios are asking for.

Re:I disagree

[Em Adespoton]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know where the MPAA players master and replicate their DVDs currently? I seem to recall that there was some Asian country where some factories replicated movies for the MPAA by day and then did black market replicating for the local market at night.

If that country was China (can't recall if it was), then why couldn't they just insist that they press to their own format for domestic release? The studios should love that -- forced region lockout and lower licensing fees; not to mention the fact that the HD-DVD factories wouldn't be able to black market the product as easily.

So does this mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

...I'll need to buy a new player for all the pirate DVDs that pour out of the PRC?

Hidden Discrimination --- CLOSET RACIST

[Anonymous Coward]

Every now and then, you get these "comments" with definite racist under-tones from the GP. Not that, this comment is racist, but just wanted to point it out. This is just an ignorant comment. Dude! Look at your car, home electronics, clothes, furniture --- NEARLY ALL of the highest end is made in China. Just to let you know, that the "big 3" outsource their PARTS to China. That is the only reason why they 'showed' profits for some of the quarters in the previous 5 years (this coming from a professional Financial Analyst)... ....Now back to "china bashing", shall we folks?!!

Re:Hidden Discrimination --- CLOSET RACIST

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why consumer electronics breaks so much nowadays.

For instance, the Big Three have worse maintenance issues than foreign cars.

Best News Ever

[dada21]

Now we can:

* Bootleg Chinese DVDs to sell on every market corner in the US
* Make a US region and sell unlocked US-made DVD players in China
* Terribly mispell Chinese words in our manual
* Make badly lip-synced English voice overs on the DVDs
* Open Caucasian-run DVD stores in China with thousands of bootlegs, and canned American food
3. ???
4. Profit!!!

Re:Best News Ever

[llZENll]

5. not sell a single movie because all chinese movies suck

Re:Best News Ever

[Ced_Ex]

5. not sell a single movie because all chinese movies suck

Nice... you've probably seen like 2 movies from the 70s to make this statement declaring your stupidity.

There have been some awesome movies made from China which were blockbusters around the world.

Need I say "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", "House of Flying Daggers" to name just two.

You can probably crawl back under your bridge now.

Re:Best News Ever

[Stonehand]

Gah. I saw CTHD once, and would much rather have spent the time re-watching John Woo's "The Killer" or Kaige Chen's "The Emperor and the Assassin".

CTHD is arty, but... Lil' Miss Havoc was -far- too irritating and the other main characters much too tolerant of her to get any sympathy from me.

Re:Best News Ever

[Guppy06]

"Open Caucasian-run DVD stores in China with thousands of bootlegs, and canned American food"

Finally, we get to send some Spam back to China!

Re:Best News Ever

[lidocaineus]

Hello! Shaolin Soccer! One of the greatest movies (IMO) ever made!

Oh please another format

[waterlogged]

Please sir may I have some more? I am really getting sick of these format wars every couple of years. What really needs to happen is for nobody to get any money out of these format incriments. No royalties, no advertising money, nothing. THEN maybe they can all agree on a single low cost high compression format that can be universally accepted.

          This would work because everyone would sell more, movies, games, data discs, whatever. I'm tired of big electronics bickering amongst themselves, and the only ones being left out are the consumers. I say let the cream rise to the top and pick that format. When money concerns get involved with engineering concerns is when things get futzzed up.

Re:Oh please another format

[The name is Dave. Ja]

When money concerns get involved with engineering concerns is when things get futzzed up.

I think advancements in technology may have something to do with these new formats, as well.

Yes, I understand your concerns and I share them. But would you rather have closed-source cathedral decisions being made for you or would you rather have the open-source bazaar? We are the milk separator - as consumers, we make the cream rise to the top. (Recall Beta/VHS)

--
Siggy Ztardust

This is good

[adsl]

Then all the HD DVDs sold in China and ripped off from the Western Studios will not be able to be played outside of China.

China?!!

[linumax]

hmmm, is it some kinda company?! like Sony or Toshiba or even Cuba?

rule of large numbers

[phriedom]

If by "anyone" you mean anyone west of Istanbul, then yes. But in case you haven't noticed, there are a very large number of people in China and India, and they make a lot of movies there. If 1% of those people buy an HD-TV and a new Hi-Def disc player in the next 5 years, that is more than enough for a market.

Re:rule of large numbers

[Anonymous Coward]

yep. china and india are 1/3 of the world's population. not a bad market to cater to.

Information control?

[Spy der Mann]

My first thought when i read this is "Great Firewall".

Picture this:

1) China develops its incompatible format and patents it.
2) They won't provide licenses to anyone they don't want to.
3) They forbid the use of the DVD standard, so people won't be able to buy or copy DVD's.
4) They copy the DVD's and release them (censored of course) in their own format.
5) ???
6) Total Control!

Or maybe I'm too paranoid? Perhaps they only want economical gains from this, so 6) Profit!!

I really don't know.

Re:Information control?

[Prophet of Nixon]

+1 Correct!

Re:Information control?

[Ngwenya]

Having RTFA, I read the bit about stronger anti-piracy than HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, and got to thinking "Bollocks". I do understand the statement made, but funnily enough my faith in genocidal gerontocratic tyrannies falters from time to time. Like now.

I really don't think China wants strong anti-piracy measures - they want rapid economic growth. Thus, anything which impedes that is a Bad Thing, and must be stopped. Patent licensing, anti-copying measures will stop people in Shanghai and other relatively wealthy cities taking up HD, which ain't good for the low-profit margin DVD-bound producers.

So, in this case, I don't think it's about Total Control. They don't achieve that by technical means - they do that by their normal anti-piracy measures. The ones which get measured in 9mm quantities.

--Ng

Re:Information control?

[oliverthered]

How is that significantly different from the rest of the world?

Re:Information control?

[Cynikal]

how did this get modded insightful?

#3 on your list is fantastical to imagine that china has the power to stop the world from using a dvd standard. even if they somehow found it in their best economical interest to tell the world "no we wont make dvd players for you that support those standards", japanese and american companies would simply go to one of many other nations who would love for a big contract making dvd players and dvds of whatever standards we tell them too. made in taiwan, anyone?

hell i'd love to see it actually.. maybe we could start seeing made in america and canada again....

if you ever want a lesson on how well a closed and enforced controled standard survives over an open, even inferior at the time, standard, just look at the whole betamax vs vhs back in the day.

Re:Information control?

[Saxerman]

Or maybe I'm too paranoid? Perhaps they only want economical gains from this

I don't know if you're being too paranoid (isn't the saying "but are you paranoid enough?") but whenever I hear China issue these edicts saying they are going to ignore what the rest of the world is doing and forge their own path I swear I hear Uruk-hai war drums in the distance.

Also consider another possibility. When the major corporate interests were forging their new standards in order to lock the rest of the world into their new licensing schemes, do you think they bothered to check if the Chinese government was interested in their meetings? Do you think they're interested now?

Re:Information control?

[Saxerman]

how did this get modded insightful? #3 on your list is fantastical to imagine that china has the power to stop the world from using a dvd standard.

I think the implication of the "Great Firewall" wasn't that China was going to control the world market, but merely the one inside itself.

3) They forbid the use of the DVD standard in China, so people in China won't be able to buy or copy DVD's.

China's new breakthrough DVD is uncopyable

[digitaldc]

China has developed a new DVD technology where it can not be copied and sold on the street for $3.00. So far, noone anywhere wants to buy them.

Again ?

[Anonymous Coward]

"China To Develop Its Own DVD Format"

Again ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Versatile_Di sc

Re:Again ?

[markana]

Yes, the Chinese government, sensing a lack of dupe stories here on /., decided to fill the void by releasing a duplicate format pronouncement.

Good News

[Anonymous Coward]

China may be messing with DVDs, but THE WEEKEND IS HERE!!

Re:Good News

[Maxo-Texas]

And I saved a lot of money on my car insurance!

I cannot support the anti-use standard

[sedyn]

FTA: "Blu-ray is backed by Sony Corp., Apple Computer Inc., Hewlett-Packard Co. and Dell Inc., along with a variety of other tech companies and studios."

I didn't know apple supports the blu-ray. And now I feel compelled to support it irrationally until apple backs the next hopefully big thing.

I was surprised to read that China is developing a standard with anti-piracy in mind... Since most of my favourite hardware toys come from there (the kind you can't buy in North American stores)...

Standard Dictates....

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

They'll just stay "local" with their format, and everything's still just fine for them with about 1 billion potential customers at hand.

Exactly. Perhaps China is thinking that with THAT MANY "potential customers", they are in a pretty good position to dictate the CD (and other) standards as they wish? Kind of hard to ignore.

I'll bet it's royalty-related

[winkydink]

As in, the Chinese mfgs will be expected to pay some kind of licensing/royalty fee for the other formats and not for the PRC-developed one.

Re:I'll bet it's royalty-related

[AviLazar]

I would wager it will allow China to more easily control what media enters their country. If people can only purchase this dvd player, and china keeps this format niche, then other countries are less likely to carry it - and less likely to have unwanted movies/music/more on it. Basically - control.

Losing DVD Battle

[Mulletproof]

""If successful, the move could add a new wrinkle to the battle between HD DVD and the competing Blu-ray Disc formats over which will become the dominant new DVD standard. "

If successful, the could also heavily regulate what their populace is allowed to view given their complete control over this specialized format that nobody else will ever use. Yeah, color me a tad paranoid, but I nearly always assume that the Chinese government has ulterior motive beyond the headlines. Of course, they could be doing it for pure profit and control of an industry standard, but lets face it, they're starting a bit late in the game and offering little in the way of innovation to actually have any sort of leverage. But saying 'yay' or 'nay' as to which movies (and ideas) get pressed for their populace to view? Yeah, I can see that.

That's not to say I think it'll work in either senario. The standards are too entrenched either way and their competition already has a head start and mass marketing experience.

License Fees

[the eric conspiracy]

They probably don't want to pay technology license fees to the west. I don't blame them.

Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat It

[Quirk]

The Comments laughing at the idea of the Chinese being innovative reverberate with the jibes thrown at the japanese economy after WWII. The japanese were seen as copiers, inept as engineers, and suited to making cupie dolls and other knock offs.

Now, in America, it's the Chinese who are seen to be a bungling satellite economy dependent upon American management and good old American know how. And how did that turn out last time around with the japanese?

Unnecessary

[Luscious868]

I chink we don't need any more high definiation video formats.

Re:Unnecessary

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice that a racist comment gets modded as funny, jerks.

Interesting that it got changed immediately after I started typing this.

Oh, poo

[Merovign]

Are we going to have + and - recordables for each of these standards? Would you like a +/-R+/-B+/-H+/-C DVD recorder war?

Here's my hazy analysis. I think it's partly an artifact of how fast markets move today, so fast that sometimes standards can't settle and you end up with embedded markets for multiple standards. The real tragedy of this is that manufacturing prices fall slower (because of duplication of effort), and that slows new development (and keeps profits lower than they might otherwise be, and thus sector growth, investment etc). It's wasteful, but kind of inevitable (unless you like totalitarian standard implementation, which we might get if the UN manages to wrest control from ICANN & DoC - with countries like China deciding core internet policy).

I guess what I'm saying is that I understand standards wars dragging on, but I don't like it. Perhaps its time for "consumer groups" or for that matter "industry groups" to start taking sides on standards, just to cut the wars short. It hardly matters which standard, but the whole point of a standard is to avoid incompatability and duplication of effort, and that seems to have been lost.

Re:Oh, poo

[Eccles]

Are we going to have + and - recordables for each of these standards?

Probably not, the BluRay/HD DVD split probably replaced it. This new Chinese standard sounds like it's written on HD DVDs, but in a different format. Thus it would be likely you could get a player that plays both. Even more interesting, they might not pay to license the western HD DVD standard, but have upgradable firmware players that some HD DVDJon just happens to have made an upgrade for with code to handle U.S. discs.

Re:Oh, poo

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Actually, a lot of this is the result of many major hardware players and the trick of making "standards" that are patent encumbered and thus make money for someone. If the government would mandate real, open standards for media to prevent lock in and ensure that media is always readable by everyone, we'd see these groups settle on a single standard because then they would have no financial incentive to push one or another and could compromise on the best technical soultion.

Re:Oh, poo

[TheRaven64]

It would be interesting to see if the standard would be better or worse. The current standard developers would have no reason to continue to invest in R&D, however the movie studios (in this case) would have a greater incentive since they would want to create products from the standards - and it's in their interests for players to be cheap to produce, since it means more people are able to buy their products.

Re:Oh, poo

[Merovign]

Yeah, that's what we need, bureaucrats mandating complex out-of-date standards. Not only is such a system probably legally impossible in the US, it would definitely be immediately suborned by users buying newer, non-standard tech.

When you have slow-moving markets (Radio in the 20s & 30s, TV in the 40s & 50s), government standards can smooth things out. When you have a market like computer tech, the government's layers of bureaucracy and millions of pages of codes and regulations just slow things down.

And frankly, if the government wasn't that slow, Really Bad Things would happen much faster (well-intenioned or not). Ask an economist for details.

missing step 3.5

[way2trivial]

electronics factory in china, employed in the production of THOUSANDS of DVD players for export to the US, suddenly grows incredibly profitable, while at the same time recording a much higher than thought possible component/device failure rate in production....

GOOD POINT

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention United Korea, Vietnam, India, SE ASIA (ASEAN), Latin America, Africa, and Europe (eventually), Russia will support it.

There, you have 94% of the World's population using it. For you Americans who are TOTALLY ignorant of what's beyond your shores, the REST of the world ALSO makes movies, music, TV shows (that kick ass for that matter) --- but you probably are not "exposed" to any of it.

Too bad for you...

In Other News

[jnadke]

Beijing (AP) - In a move that has surprised the world, China has announched today that its new DVD format will be 100% Freedom-Free. "We want to make sure terrorists cannot attack the pride of the People's Republic of China," said President Hu Jintao. "China will not be hindered by other formats that could possibly include Freedom protocols," he concluded.

"We were just trying to stop those damned file sharers," said Mitch Bainwol, Chairman and CEO of the RIAA. "This time, China has gone too far. They can't expect to attack freedom and get away with it. Besides, how are we supposed to be the bad guys when China shows us up with this? We have an image to maintain."

Following the announcement, the RIAA is expected to respond later today with a Data-Free DVD format. "You can't steal what you can't see," said Bainwol.

Re:In Other News

[paymoretaxes]

Good one. I was going to say this is pretty much what the RIAA wanted all along.

Re:In Other News

[superyooser]

The new format is called Red-Ray, also Pinko-Ray in the U.S.

Region coding

[slapout]

Well. This would be one agruement against region-coding. There's one less region to try to keep seperate.

On the other hand ...

[linumax]

I do support your idea to some extent but

* Even if blue-ray wins, license fees won't hurt MS (and any other licensee as well, cuz otherwise nobody would embrace it)
* MS has other plans for Home Entertainment (i.e. Media Center)
* Just because MS is supporting HD-DVD does not mean it's useless peice of crap (I know you didn't mention this ;-)

PS:I wish all these guys could settle somehow so that I won't have to buy 2 or 3 types of device esp. the Chinese version! They never provide English manuals :-(

Utilitarian need:

[paperclip2003]

How long before manufactures just make players and writers detect and support all formats?

YET another one!?

[Jugalator]

I first thought this was about EVD, and an ancient dupe, but after RTFA, it sounds like this is YET another one?? They aren't even done with the EVD's...

Figured this looked familiar...

[jamesshuang]

DUPE!

Yeah, go slashdot... =p

Communism...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tends to make it much easier to suppress the knowledge your people can view when your "standard" conflicts with the rest of the world. Wanna see that latest dvd on democracy? Too bad, your player only supports HD-DVD.c (FOR CHINA!!). You act as thought you're suprised by this, I'm suprsied you're suprised to be quite honest :)

How long before the UN and EU

[Anonymous Coward]

decide that they should be in charge of DVD formats? :)

Another brick in the wall

[rodrigogo]

I dont see any sensible reason to do this.

If America or the UK decided to randomly make a random format, everyone in those countries, and everyone outside those countries would quite rightly yell "WTF?!?!". Its very difficult for countries, even aggressive dictatorship ones, to just declare what a new standard is going to be. No-one else is going to use it with all the big hitters going with the big formats.

I guess they think they'll be in charge of a localised standard which they can then use to control their people. Shame really,

I like Bluray cos its got a cooler name

Re:Another brick in the wall

[Hrvat]

Yes, but you forget that China is the People's Republic, and it is obvious that the People decided to do what is best for the people. So who would disagree? What is there to control if everyone is in perfect harmony?

Re:Another brick in the wall

[Maxo-Texas]

Why should a billion people pay a buck a piece in licensing fees on players and 5 cents per disk when they don't have to?

This can save China a ton of money and avoid transferring that money to competitors.

Western nations have abused copyright and patent laws to the point that if you can avoid them- you probably should.

Re:Another brick in the wall

[WhiteWolf666]

Frankly, I think this is a great thing.

More strife in the media-opoly market structure might loose their currently oligarchical structure.

Wouldn't it be a *great* thing if independent film studios started receiving funding, operating in a fashion outside of the MPAA?

I can dream, can't I?

Competition = good thing. The Chinese should bring it; without competition, we whither and die.

Way against piracy

[shuut]

If you have been to China, you will know how almost nobody buys legit CD/VCD/DVD. With the current video standards, there exists shops all over the street where they will burn the DVDs for you right where you buy it. Not only this hurts all the foreign movie industries but also the movies and dramas that's "made in china (or HK)" will get burned. If they can some how make it into a closed standard, not only the made in china movies will sell sell , which they are already selling them VERY CHEAP (think of the equivalent of about 20 bucks can get you like 2 seasons of Friends here), they can license to whoever that can import videos into china for some money. Sounds like a win/win to me(but not the people in China with all the DRM crap...)

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[cpeterso]

How's that Japanese economy doing these days?

But who will use it.

[SeaFox]

Will they make their DVD players compatable with Blu-Ray/HD-DVD as well as their own standard, then?

There's little point in starting a separate format if studios don't release their content in it. I predict this new Chinese format will be marginalized by the fact only Chinese studios release in it.

Re:But who will use it.

[humaniverse]

Even if it's used for China domestci market, it is big enough to make their own standard. Look at the population of that country, five times more than US.

Money down the drain

[SavannahLion]

The thing I think of as I read these Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD vs. whatever news article is how much of my money is going to go down the drain if I decide to be an early adapter, or how much time I'm going to waste searching for out of print copies on eBay if I wait until the winner is declared.

Bleh, I doubt it really matters. Neither Blu-Ray nor HD DVD will make crappy movies any better. Here's an idea! Give us a disc format that makes craptastic films palatable.

Mod Parent UP! - That's it... or close enough

[J_Omega]

at least as far as I understand it. RTFA and it mentions the liscensing fees.

Current DVD players (most made in China) need to buy the "rights" to decode/play the region specific DVD encodings. This liscensing cost makes up somewhere between 40%-50% (TFA says 40%) of the entire production cost per player.

With their own format, production costs drop by nearly 50%... units can be sold for less while making a larger profit... consumers buy more... company makes tons more money. (assuming that consumers do buy into the new format.)

I don't see how this is a bad thing, really. Sure, it might be a new format that noone can currently play at home, but that's the same thing with HD DVD and BlueRay. Also, DVDs are region encoded so that you can't always (easily) play them all as is (without hacking the player.)

It looks like the Chinese format won't be encumbered by DRM crap, but is geared towards anti-piracy. (not the same thing, right?)

Don't worry...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can still share them over bittorrent if you have IPv9.

Do you ?!!

[linumax]

I was surprised to read that China is developing a standard with anti-piracy in mind... Since most of my favourite hardware toys come from there (the kind you can't buy in North American stores)...

Toys? You mean like this ?

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[maxume]

Pretty well. Ask an economist if the 'Usian' or Japanese economy is healthier and they will tell you that the U.S. Economy is doing *way* better than Japan's. Part of the reason for this is we buy a whole bunch of goods from China. Go figure.

Re:Seriously... (Mod Parent up- Insightful)

[Maxo-Texas]

Clever parallel there.

What is the difference between government suppressed speech and business supressed speech enforced by laws purchased from the government?

Ummm, almost all of it?

[Sycraft-fu]

My computer was built here by me, teh parts are quite varied. Processor is from Ireland, motherboard from Taiwan of US parts, memory is Germany, disks Malaysia, monitor Japan. My mixer and amp are from the US, speakers Great Britan. My TV is a Japanese maker (Toshiba), but made in the US by dBx. That's probably the extent of the electronics I'd call high-quality. I do have a number of things made in China, but none of it rates up there on my quality scale.

I personally don't check country of origin for determining quality, however it seems when I've found a part I consider to be quality, it usually isn't Chinese in origin.

Re:Ummm, almost all of it?

[ChocoBean]

Ummm last I check...Taiwai is a part of China, as much as they'd hate to remember that.

Besides, if all our non-chinese electronics are really all that high quality, why do BestBuy and Walmart and those guys make a killing selling "extended warranty"?

I don't have anything "against" stuff made in China per se, but they really have to work hard to shed the bad rep that they have. Occasionally I see news articles from Hong Kong about chinese-brand electronics spontaneously combusting causing small home fires. Not exactly confidence inspiring...

Re:Ummm, almost all of it?

[grumpyman]

I don't know what you think about stuff made in Taiwan, but a lot of mobos are from there and stuff like tyan, supermicro are widely used in datacenter applications. And oh yeah, they're starting to outsource manufacturing to mainland China lol.

Besides, if all our non-chinese electronics are really all that high quality, why do BestBuy and Walmart and those guys make a killing selling "extended warranty"?

Hmm, what you just said is somewhat contradictory. If they're making a killing selling 'extended warranty' that means they don't really have to replace that many pieces of their sold gears.

I don't have anything "against" stuff made in China per se, but they really have to work hard to shed the bad rep that they have. Occasionally I see news articles from Hong Kong about chinese-brand electronics spontaneously combusting causing small home fires. Not exactly confidence inspiring...

I've heard those news. It's not fun when your cellphone is warming your thigh and starting a fire.

Re:Ummm, almost all of it?

[Sycraft-fu]

They make a killing BECAUSE of quality electronics. You lose money on a warantee someone takes you up on, you make money on one they don't. What they count on is that people will pay, and they'll have a very low failure rate (which is correct). Thus a large net profit. They wouldn't sell warantees on things that were likely to fail during the period. With most electronics, it either fails in the first 90 days (which the manufactuer covers) or not for a number of years. The 1-3 year range is quite safe, hence they sell warantees for it that are nearly pure profit.

Besides, most of this, you don't get at Best Buy. They aren't really a basiton of quality. They do sell some quality stuff, but a lot of it is crap.

I find that there is plenty of deceant stuff made in China, but most real quality good come from somewhere else. Not the US necessiarly, but some other nation. I'd say the US, Germany and Japan probably account for the largest amount of high quality electronic goods I see.

Also of course one has to distinguish where it's manufactured and where it's designed. The design plays a large role too. Nearly all of the deceant quality goods PRODUCED in China are done so at the behest of a company elswhere and are designed elsewhere. The ability to produce goods to spec and the ability to design tehm yourself are two different operations entirely.

Re:Ummm, almost all of it?

[VAXcat]

Build? You didn't build anything, you just stuffed some preassembled parts in a box. You'll have built something when you design a circuit and construct it from discrete components. You assembled something, at best.

Re:Ummm, almost all of it?

[Sycraft-fu]

Ok thank you Captian Pedantic. However if you want to be overly literal, you're still wrong. The first definion in the dictonary for build is "To form by combining materials or parts". Well guess that? That's what I did. I ordered parts, I assembled them in to a system. Build is a word that can be used for any level of construction. I also built my headphone amp, hoever the parts in that case were a PCB, opamps and a bunch of caps, resistors, transistors and so on. Either way it's still building.

I mentioned that I built my PC only in such that I considered all the parts and their quality individually before buying. I didn't do that with the TV, it came all as one unit and was considered over all and I can't tell you the origin of the parts, only that dBx made the final unit.

Re:Ummm, almost all of it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Crack some of that open and read where the parts are manufactured...

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, in America, it's the Chinese who are seen to be a bungling satellite economy dependent upon American management and good old American know how.

If you look outside of /. and message boards, I don't think you'll find this perception is as widespread. I don't personally know anyone who thinks that way. Most of the people I know joke that the Chinese are taking over, similar to the jokes about how the Japanese were taking over in the 80s. There are some that even fear China's rising power.

As for the perception that they're dependent on American management. This is actually true to a small degree. The management structures and research centers are not anywhere near as mature as they are in the west. In many organizations, the hierarchy is determined even less by merit than it is in the west (which is saying a lot). This is changing however, and I don't think it'll take them long to catch-up.

It'll be interesting. For the duration of the Cold War, there were two super powers that were adversarial in almost every possible way. If China (and India) rise to super power status, they'll at least have economies heavily dependent on the west (and vice versa). Things could get messed up of course, both the US and China were very agressive over much of the post-WWII 20th century. And the two don't see eye-to-eye on N.Koera and even less so on Taiwan. It'll be interesting...

Wrong Format

[Anonymous Coward]

When will everybody realize that the next format will not be a disc?

They really can't do that

[Sycraft-fu]

I mean they can make their DVD players, and sell them in the US but they can't force companies to make their DVDs. If they say "nope, we don't make HD-DVD players" the answer will be to not give China the business and have them made elsewhere. Perhaps they'll choose to do that, but it won't stop the HD-DVD drives from being made.

by creating differing standards...

[zogger]

...they gain amazing market leverage. They aren't cutting themselves off, they are guaranteeing profits and not even have to even think about exporting cash. Explanation: they have the industrial capacity to still EXPORT any and all formats,in any quantity, anywhere, to anyone, so they don't care about "formats" except it's a market. But, who will want to try and make a chinese standard disk and try to import it INTO china and expect to make a profit? Answer, no one. See, they cover their humongous domestic market, plus the rest of the planet. Win/Win for them, and guaranted to most always keep their rapidly expanding internal markets domesticaly driven. Yes, they import, and they mostly import machine tools to go ahead and setup more factories to build stuff, when it comes to durable goods, that or prototypes they can either license legally and clone or just heck with it, clone anyway. It's only taken them 25 or so years to go from a marginal player with a huge population to the worlds leading manufacturing nation, and all the indicators say this will continue until they are also the highest GDP.

They are long term strategic thinkers, they don't fool much with this quarters profit mentality. That's why they are out there signing 20 year energy deals or outright buying up the sources, along with strategic minerals.

Re:by creating differing standards...

[AKAImBatman]

They aren't cutting themselves off, they are guaranteeing profits and not even have to even think about exporting cash.

Hardly. They have to force the producers of movies to support the Chinese format. And why would anyone support the Chinese format when everyone in China already has DVD or BluRay players? The government could force the market to only sell players that handled their format, but that would only serve to create a massive black market.

Explanation: they have the industrial capacity to still EXPORT any and all formats,in any quantity, anywhere, to anyone, so they don't care about "formats" except it's a market.

Eh? They're entertainment discs. The problem is foreign imports of movies, not exports. Foreign companies aren't going to bother with the Chinese format unless there's an incentive to do so. What's the incentive?

But, who will want to try and make a chinese standard disk and try to import it INTO china and expect to make a profit? Answer, no one.

Exactly.

See, they cover their humongous domestic market, plus the rest of the planet.

You're assuming again that China doesn't need to import movies. That's not such a good assumption. At the very least (given the rampant piracy) some people need to have players to transcode foreign discs into the Chinese format. Most likely, the Chinese people will continue to purchase DVD or Blueray players on the black market, and DVD or Bluray discs to go with them.

Re:by creating differing standards...

[nihaopaul]

so who'd they steal this one from?

serious note, these companies were probably forced into doing this because they have setup offices in china, if the government tells you to jump, you do it, you dont even ask how high.

Re:by creating differing standards...

[MikeFM]

If they were that bright they'd see the market for DRM-free region-free DVD's and produce a better HD DVD standard that also avoids these 'features'. If played right they could produce these machines that are more consumer friendly and sell their own movies though it. They have a lot of resources. They could attack Hollywood straight on by making their own movies and television and releasing them on their own format of discs as well as over the Internet. Even if all they got out of the effort was better licensing terms from electronics companies and Hollywood they'd still be able to make billions from it. They've got nothing to lose for shaking the tree a lil bit.

Re:by creating differing standards...

[quarkscat]

It would seem that the USA made a big mistake in forwarding the PRC membership in the WTO. Instead of opening up the potential market of 1.3 billion Chinese, their government has been taking steps to lock out any foreign competition that do not ally themselves with a PRC-based company.

The PRC government has looked at the MSFT OS source code and decided to use a homegrown "Red Dragon" linux.

The PRC government has looked at the WiFi standards, and decided to build their own version of WiFi (, much to the chagrin of Intel and their Centrino processor).

This is just one more example of using the "power of their market" to dictate to outside suppiers what standards will be used. Those outside suppiers must also license the PRC technology from PRC-based companies, frequently as "minority partners". Many western companies (and governments) are becoming increasingly concerned about the growth of technology transfers to the PRC, but severly limiting outsdie market access. While every country uses some mechanisms to protect their domestic markets from foreign competition, the PRC government has demonstrated an early uncanny agility as a newcomer to the WTO.

Re:by creating differing standards...

[Anonymous Coward]

themselves off, they are

"off; they". There are also other parts of your posts where a comma should be a semicolon.

who will want to try and make

"try to make".

guaranted to most always keep

"almost" or "'most".

go ahead and setup more factories

"set up". ("setup" is a noun.)

It's only taken them 25 or so years

"It's taken them only 25 or so years". ("only" modifies "25 or so years", not "taken".)

to the worlds leading manufacturing nation

"world's".

Also, starting a sentence in the subject and finishing it in the body is bad form.

Re:by creating differing standards...

[zogger]

Why thank you very much for the corrections.

Clever move

[Douglas Simmons]

This will help kickstart China's economy and lower the trade deficit as in isolating the country in this case would create more demand for local businesses to start cranking out devices that only Chinamen would want. Even better, since China isn't super rich, higher quality of lives would become within reach to more citizens who'd otherwise have to participate in the world markets.

At first glance, this strikes the average person as being another bizarre action of their evil autocratic censoring and repressing government, not to mention it can appear to be gesture to the world that China is not starving to get a better foothold in the global economy. But those people will get over it and it will ultimately help themselves and I would not be surprised if they continue to make extreme decisions similar to this.

On this subject, what I don't get is why the FCC is giving cable companies an ultimatum to phase in high def in broadcast signals.

Re:Clever move

[YrWrstNtmr]

This will help kickstart China's economy and lower the trade deficit...

Oh please. The introduction of another (probably very marginal) DVD standard will have about as much effect on China's GDP as a single peanut does to an elephant.

Re:Clever move

[Anonymous Coward]

This will help kickstart China's economy and lower the trade deficit

Uh... what?

China doesn't have a trade deficit. China has a huge trade surplus. The USA is the country with the trade deficit, largely because of the massive amount of goods it buys from China. Are you saying that this'll reduce the USA's trade deficit? If so, I don't understand your logic. A bigger local market for Chinese production means they'll grow; it doesn't mean they'll stop producing for the American market.

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[WhiteWolf666]

How did it turn out with the Japanese?

Quite well, actually. In 30 years, Japan became the world's second largest economy, with a vibrant democracy, and a staunch ally of the U.S.

What; we expected them to not compete with us???

I think no one but idiotic, racist assholes had that impression. Japan became a trading partner worthy of the U.S. in a record amount of time. The silliness of 'Japan, Inc.' purchasing the entire U.S. never materalized.

If Japan is the model of China, I look forward to a bright future. Sadly, I think that China's old-school political system is going to be a problem.

Any PC EVD players

[benwaggoner]

Speaking of EVD, I was recently handed an interesting pile of EVD discs. Are there any software players (XP, Linux, or Mac OS X) for these discs? Any US-available players for them?

I can't imagine it'd have particularly invasive DRM :).

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[Anonymous Coward]

"And how did that turn out last time around with the japanese?"

Japan ended up building an export-obsessed economy, got mired in a decade-plus long recession, has utterly lost the national stature that once struck economic fear in the hearts of anyone anywhere, has started churning out social problems once laughingly classified as Western problems, has become a cutting edge source of decadent culture, and faces declining birthrates at a point of national catastrophe. Corruption and mafia influence in big business is as widespread as ever, if not more. Japan is now reduced to squabbling over tiny islands with China and the USSR, and faces new nuclear threats from its North Korean neighbors, and continues to depend on the US for its basic national defense. Women still face distasteful levels of discrimination in the workplace, and many young Japanese, a generation spoiled by cheap money, just want to get out and/or party all the time and forget about what it might take to sustain the future of the country.

Gee. Didn't turn out so good for them, did it?

Fine ! I will mae my own too ...

[dotslasher_sri]

Fine!. I will make my own DVD format too! With blackjack! and Hookers!

What about digital TV?

[MojoSF]

Didn't they say they were going to create an independent modulation standard for digital television as well? (Instead of using COFDM or 8-VSB.) What up with 'at?

Re:What about digital TV?

[humaniverse]

Well you're talking about analog format. They actually have their own digital compression standard compare to MPEG4/H264 which is call AVS. China is big enough by itself to throw away any standard if they want.

If it is like their other "Standards"

[soft_guy]

It will be a copied directly from either BlueRay or HD DVD with trivial changes. In order to be sold in China, it will have be "their format" which will mean it is "our format" (Blue Ray or HD DVD) with a license fee paid to the Chinese company that owns "their format" so that the disc is compliant.

It's a way for cronies of the chinese government to make money.

Hi Hao!

[tnk1]

China is the only country to make decent DVD players. Their players don't force you to watch commercials, they don't force macrovision on you, and they don't enforce region coding.

And soon, you'll even be able to do all of that with their new, totally awesome, completely incompatible DVD formatted discs! Yay!

So what will they change? Will they alter the fast forward/scan feature so that it is now called "Great Leap Forward"? Will they add new DRM called the "Five Year Plan", as in if you attempt to break it, you get sent to the work gangs for 5-10?

Re:newbie

[DigitalHammer]

You sir, have not seen Ringo Lam's Full Contact or John Woo's Hard-Boiled.

From...

[POWuhuru]

... a consumer point of view, GO CHINA.

There is need to break the monopoly that exists in DVD standards. Not for quality reasons but to fight EVIL. You would think standards are meant for convenience of both consumers and vendors, but this has turned into a hanging ground where manufacturers can strangle consumers with anything from DRM, Pricing to mandatory upgrades.

The likes of MPAA, RIAA and the Hollywood establishment/mafia have tricked the world to focus on one thing. THE CONSUMER AS A PILATE. Menwhile behind the scenes they sell low cost commodity (CD and DVDs) at MAFIA prices. These monopolies are clever, for even Governments will never examine their pricing practises. While all attention is on stopping the (oh so) pilateful consumer, their pricing is going to hell.

As it is, a DVD should never retail for more than US $ 1.99.
A CD should go for US $ 0.99. and the artists would never go hungry. Magically this would also kill the little copying that goes on by making the product affordable and increase sales for the vendors.

At the moment, artists are paid too much, yet not getting close to a fair share.
So let the market have more options, and China is a start with this alternative DVD standard if it ever takes off.

China and DVD patent royalties

[microbee]

On a different reply I mentioned this, but maybe it's of interest to more people to hear what China has to say. It might be the motivation of finally inventing their own standard.

http://www.dvdtown.com/messageboard/topic/5/34/

ABOUT ROYALTIES OF DVD PLAYERS

To Whom It May Concern:

There are a lot of rumors around in recent days about the issue of DVD patents. The patent holders especially 6C and 3C are claiming that Chinese DVD player manufacturers are unjustifiably taking over the majority of market share by avoid paying patent fees. It seems imperative for Chinese DVD manufacturer to clarify some facts and clearly state its stand.

Since1999, Chinas manufacturers are taking a positive attitude to negotiate royalty issues with 3C and 6C, and Chinese manufacturers have clearly expressed their desires to pay the royalties as long as it is a fair play. Since the majority of the patent rights are integrated in the loader and encoding/decoding chip-sets, Chinese sides suggested a most easy and practical way to collect the royalties, that is, to add the royalties on the key parts because the key parts suppliers are no more than ten, on the other hand, the assemblers are more than hundreds. If some assemblers pay the royalties and some not, it will make an unfair competition in the market.

Although 3C and 6C claimed Chinas DVD player manufacturers should pay them royalties for the patents used in the machine, few people noted the fact that Chinas manufacturers are just assemblers in the field, all the key parts such as loader, decoder chipset are supplied by 3C and 6C themselves or their related and/or associated companies. However, the benefit groups refused the suggestion and persisted on charging the patent fee to the DVD player assemblers rather than the loader and chip-set suppliers.

There is one more fact that worth notice, that is, some members of the benefit groups are leading suppliers of DVD players themselves, which may well explain why the benefit groups would prefer the tremendous trouble to deal with hundreds of DVD assembly manufacturers to settlement the royalties by easier and practical way to collect the royalties from the a fewer key parts and chipsets suppliers.

The benefit groups have to admit that they have a so call cross licensing± between each other. But benefit groups have always refused to open the black box of the content of this cross licensing±. It is dubious whether they are paying patent fees to each other or how much is paid. Many of the 6C and 3C members are both component suppliers and DVD player manufacturers. If there is a special rate between each other, that will constitute an unfair competition. Chinese DVD player suppliers will be in an inferior position to compete with their opponents.

The stubborn position of 3C and 6C result in another issue in question, that is, whether the royalties have been included in the price of the DVD loaders and chip-sets that are sold to Chinas assemblers. If so, the benefit groups are guilty for double charging the patent fee. In the market, the price of the benefit parties DVD player is about 30% higher than Chinese DVD players price, we think it is reasonable because Chinas labor cost and system cost for operating is lower than the developed countries. The $19.60 royalties claimed by the benefit parties is just around 30%. Therefore, we have reason to suspect or believe the benefit groups are charging the royalties doubly.

What deserves mentioned is the patent holders including 6C and 3C are asking altogether US$20 patent fee which is based on the price of DVD players four years ago when it was as high as US$400. Now, the price of DVD players has dropped to a significantly low price. The retail price in some chain stores in the US, it could be as low as around $70 US dollars. We doubt if the consumers in the world especially in US and Europe where the royalties are stirred up in high noise are willing to pay extra 20 dollars for a DVD player. Meanwhile, we would

"..based on but incompatible with HD DVD"

[WiartonWilly]

Isn't this just blatant, Chinese-government sanctioned patent infringement?

This is like admission of reverse engineering. There is probably an entire building full of lawyers devoted to filing and prosecuting HD DVD patents. However, It will be many years before western patent laws will have and clout in China and I hear we can't keep Chinese-made counterfeit Levi's Jeans off of American shores. Hmm.

it's obvious China doesn't want to make HD-DVDs

[swschrad]

yes, it's true, the Chinese government herein signals their intention to NOT MAKE HD_DVD players cheaply for all comers, because they just have too much business going right now to take on any more.

there is no other logical explaination for the decision to make their own variant, probably in violation of patents and copyrights.

unless they want to check back on who is watching those disgusting things, and jail them at their leisure at 3 am. still Communist and scared of their own proletariat over there, you know.

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[be-fan]

The state of the Japanese economy is largely due to their financial services sector, overregulation by the government, and their massive debt. Underperformance of their technology and engineering firms is not what is contributing to their economic state. Ergo, your question is largely irrelevant to the point at hand.

Moreover, the Japanese economy is recovering quite nicely now, again thanks to better performance from their financial services sector as well as steps by Koizumi and his party to remove government regulation.

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[DNS-and-BIND]

The Chinese, much like the Japanese before them, are headed for a massive banking meltdown in a few years. Something like 50% of their loan portfolio is bad debt. Japan is widely known as a 'zombie economy' because after the bubble burst in 1989, they were unable to make changes (banks fail, companies bankrupt) due to their culture, and China is headed down the same road.

And as for management and know-how? I've been living in China for 2 years doing business here. The Chinese don't know their ass from their elbow. Good engineers, but they don't know how to run a business unless someone wrote the procedure in a manual. They also have a very well-deserved reputation for double dealing and outright fraud. My company was burned by defective products twice, and that's why I'm here, to keep an eye on things. I check everything. I have a friend who spends his days inspecting every single piece of furniture that goes out of his company's factory. If we didn't do this, we'd get burned. The Chinese will happily take your money and screw you.

And as far as the Japanese economy after WWII, they did produce crap. It took them decades to make quality goods for export. Maybe if you knocked off the knee-jerk slurs against Americans and either did some exporting or read some history, you wouldn't sound so ignorant in front of such a wide audience.

EVD all over again?

[mib]

Hasn't China tried this before with EVD? It didn't work then (or maybe it worked enough to be the sabre-rattling it was intended as), why should this be any different?

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[Quirk]

you wouldn't sound so ignorant in front of such a wide audience.

/. is not a wide audiance. I like /. but to see it as a wide audiance is uhmm, ignorant. btw you seem to be crippled by a desperate need to look good, maybe you're sterotypic view of the Chinese is comically tied to the "antideluvian" image of saving face.
Sad really.

And as far as the Japanese economy after WWII, they did produce crap. It took them decades to make quality goods for export.

After World War II, MacArthur served as Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers (SCAP). His first responsibility was overseeing the reconstruction in Japan. Though it was officially an effort of the Allies, the US was firmly in control, and MacArthur was effectively the dictator of Japan during this period." If, as you post, Japan took decades to make quality goods, then the decades must amount to no more than two. And those two decades may amount to no more than overcoming the Overlordship of el Supremo MacArthur.

Maybe if you knocked off the knee-jerk slurs against Americans and either did some exporting or read some history...

Actually, as it applies to you, it's a bitch slapping of you as an American.

I ran an export company that dealt exclusively with Japan (I'm Canadian). It wasn't a big company (we did about a million dollars a week), but I did it all, with the help of a secretary and the connections of the owner a descendent relative of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. I happily was able to visit Japan and travel while writting the costs off.

One of my undergrad majors was economics. I like to think I can still stay with an elementary discussion of economics and business (extensive commerce courses and business law plus 2/3 years general accounting).

Prior to shifting my major I studied the humanities. I've read widely in the history of Japan. I had an onging interest in a comparative study of the Britan and Japan, given their both island states.

In terms of the economic history of Japan my readings rely primarily on the Cambridge Economic History; although I did read more widely on the Meiji Revolution.

Culturally I rely extensively on George Samson's 3-volume History of Japan. In terms of Literature I've read everything I could find from the Tale of the Genji on up.

So bitch, there you have it. Now do ya wanna play who knows more?

VCD

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll have to disable VCD playback too.

No copy protection?

[pyite69]

If they had support for high definition without copy protection, this should hopefully become the worldwide standard.

Censorship?

[Misagon]

I am afraid that the format would allow the Chinese government to control which titles are released on it, so that no titles involving critizism against the regime would be allowed.

Choose the format that supports YOUR interests

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, so far I'm not willing to buy any DB/HD discs because the copy protection stuff goes a little too far for my taste (Heck, why can't I even fast forward or skip the studio logos on current DVD-Videos -- whould that be against any law??). So if consumers get their act together, they will use the Chinese format if it is more in line with their consumer rights...

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[Anonymous Coward]

In a follow-up post you tell us you're Canadian. Ha! Like we couldn't already tell from the typically Canadian brand of repressed, bed-wetter nationalism on display- the result of an inferiority complex as big as all 13 provinces combined. Jerks like you almost make me forget all the talented entertainers and athletes your country's produced- Mike Meyers and Jim Carrey, Larry Walker and Eric Gagne.

How did it turn out with the Japanese? The same Japanese who missed out on the PC revolution, the Internet revolution, and the about-to-commence nanotech and biotech revolutions? The same Japanese who set themselves up as the world's leading manufacturers of electronics and have been undercut by the Koreans, who themselves are being undercut by the Chinese?

Who knows if American dominance in just about every sphere of national prestige will continue, or whether it'll be the Chinese who'll wrest those laurels away. Whatever happens in the future I do know this- Canada will still be a great big white nothing.

Re:Usians Ignorant of (their own) History, Repeat

[DNS-and-BIND]

Dude. You have some serious anger issues. I said, "it took decades to produce quality goods", and you agreed with me, and then spent the rest of the (long) post defending your credentials? My other points were untouched, probably because they were right. I know a bunch of Canadians here in China, and none of them have such reckless hatred towards Americans.

Chinese "entertainment industry"?

[grolschie]

The purpose is so that they will be able to sell 5 to 10 bootleg movies on a single disc for $2!

The People of China

[Anonymous Coward]

You fool!

You cannot anger The People of China with government decisions.
The People of China is in charge and makes the decisions.
Why do you think we call it The People's Republic of China?
You are used to your decadent Democracies that only claim to represent the people.