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Macedonia Deploys 5,000 Ubuntu Desktops in Schools
vladoboss writes "The latest GNOME Journal is running a story about the deployment of 5000 Ubuntu desktops in public schools. The Republic of Macedonia is a small country in Southern Europe with a population of around 2 million. Internet penetration is only around 5% and software piracy rate is rampant. Also, the government does not play any major role in the development of the ICT (Information and Communication Technologies) and a private sector is dominated by Microsoft technologies. Given the circumstances, one would not expect any free software related stories to make the headlines. Yet the presence of a small volunteer organization by the name Free Software Macedonia is making a big difference in this small country."
The friendly article didn't say it, but I assumed these schools will be using OO.o, not MS Office on WINE?
This is a strong movement because children tend to come back home and fiddle with home PCs (like installing games/trojans), so it's now more likely that more Macedonian homes will be running Linux too.
What I am not sure is the career future of these children of the future. Will they be better off in their career now that they are primed with OpenSource ideas, will they become the valuable elites in "knowledge-based exports" market, or will they be forced to re-learn MS once they enter workfoce?
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
All right! only 2000 more to go before we have...
Seven Thousand Macedonian Linux Desktops in Full Battle Array!
-3Suns
~~~~
The Revolution will be Slashdotted
Glad to see our south-western brothers get it right. Nothing better than teaching children to use C++ with KDevelop + QT Designer, and in Ubuntu that setup is always just a few mouse clicks away.
Due to pressure by large countries to honour patents and copyrights, poor countries are all switching to free software. The strict enforcement of copyrights is the best thing that can ever happen to the Free Software movement and to the poor, it is a godsend.
Oh well, what the hell...
How exactly do you have such a high software piracy rate when only 5% of the people have Internet? Yeah, I know people can copy things at home and hand them out or sell them, but it seems like that couldn't spread things fast enough to come close to the rate in other countries.
software piracy rate is rampant
Stop it. Stop it, I say. I can't stand the words "rampant" and "piracy" in the same sentence anymore. And besides, how can a rate be rampant?
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Why would they put KDE on a system and yet not use Kubuntu instead? It seems likely to me they're using gnome, which given their wonderful new Cairo API would be a good thing. I personally went right off KDE when i realised most of the apps were eating huge proportions of CPU and memory. It got so bad that i switched to a GNOME media player, despite me loving amarok. Now i don't use KDE. I'm thinking of this from the point of view that presumably macedonian poor families can't afford the latest and greatest computers and so everything you can squeeze out of it would surely be welcome.
~HTP~ Hug that tux
That and the fact that their government is probably more concerned with more important things like water and power...if they aren't corrupt. Exce$$ive dollar $ign$ nonwithstanding, I don't think the parent post is a troll.
I also question whether that what gets installed is also that what gets used by the pupils or schools later on. Once their infrastructure is getting better, people start to experiment (even pupils at home). That's how we all learned about Linux and I doubt that the 468 schools and some 182 computer labs continue staying with GNOME once they find themselves trap into many problems that they can not solve. I think from the 5000 Desktops that are planned - only half of them will remain with GNOME (in best). The other half will continue piracing Windows or switch to something else.
I found Linux because of experimentation yes, but I was only experimenting because of my disgust with Windows. My thought is that if these kids are introduced to Linux before they become acustomed to Windows, they will be much less inclined to switch to Windows after experiencing the (subjective) benefits of Linux.
As for finding themselves trapped in problems, I do not agree. I have done my fair share of deploying Ubuntu for inexperienced Linux users, and it has always turned out well. I feel that both Gnome as a desktop environment and Ubuntu as a distribution are easily mature enough for this scenario.
I hope them the best in their endeavor, and that others follow suit.
This is exactly the sort of initiative that is needed in poorer countries. The reason so many people remain poor around the world is that they don't have skills that are of value in the global marketplace, and for the most part they don't have the opportunity to get those skills. When you get the kids wired, they get the opportunity to learn the same skills that people in wealthier countries make dang sure to give their own kids - and we're all the better off for it.
If you build it, they will come...
Yes, but there are also aspects of KDE which are harmful to education. For instance, konstantly kspelling keverything kwith "K" kannot kbe kood kfor kyoung kstudents.
It used to be the argument between rich & poor schools. "We have a gym, swimming pool, theater, you don't have anything!!!" Now its, "We run Windows, your poor, you run Linux!!!" Open Source is a really good idea though, it will give pepole many more opportunities to access & use computers.
Second, Gnome/KDE, it does not really make that much of a difference. ubuntu, kubuntu, both look nice, can run browsers, office software, software development software and definately a heck more than they would have if they were to use licensed payware.
On se Internetz nobody noes your German.
Damn, just when I was going to say: You forgot Macedonia!
Imagine if some wise tutor could harness this technology and knowledge and instill a pupil with the ability to conquer the world...
muwhahaha...
yes yes I know I know...it's not the same Macedonia.
Free Software is a winner once more. Alas, not everywhere. I live in a neighboring country, Bulgaria, and it looks like our last government made a life-contract with MS for our schools and state administration. Corruption, you will ask, yes, a contractor which is in close relation to the government supplied all the MS products and there was no public auction for this contract. The MS products were even bought at higher than normal prices. And one more thing: There are computers in the state administration somewhere in smaller towns, that can only run DOS, but they still have bought MS WINXP for these PCs. And the contract being for life means as long as MS suppllies products our children will be forced to use Windows at school and call themselves computer-skilled. For me it is the worst nightmare. Go go go, Free Software Macedonia! I wish you more success!
sex is better than war!
I work at the MS travel office in Redmond.
We read Slashdot all the time so we know in advance where the salespersons will want to go next.
We have chartered a plane for next week.
Expect a "Macedonian ministry of education revokes linux deployment plan" article here come January.
Do you trust Wikipedia?
If not, how about the CIA's World Factbook?
In one last ditch effort, if Wikipedia and the CIA are too shady for you, how about the self declared First Macedonian WWW Page? (I might note that the bottom of this page mentions that it "was rated in the 'Top 5% of the Web'")
How does the other 95% get their porn!?!?
Excuse me, but what does this have to do with software piracy?
There is a school district switching over to Linux computers, I just don't see where any type of piracy is involved here.
The school isn't using them for piracy, and they aren't using pirated software.
WOULD PEOPLE PLEASE STOP MENTIONING PIRACY IN EVERY DAMN ARTICLE THAT HAS THE WORD "INTERNET" IN IT!
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
There's no reason they can't run the KDE Educational packages on Gnome. I'm an avid KDE user, but for schools I would probably also go with Gnome. All the advanced KDE features that I love are completely irrelevant for that target audience. Although KDE's superior lockdown features may be beneficial.
This is Eastern Europe. Piracy is huge there, and yes, it's largely of the burned-disc variety. This is a problem, because if FYR Macedonia wants to do business seriously with the West - and most importantly with the EU, which is immensely rich and right on its doorstep - then it needs to sort that kind of thing out. And a small, poor, unstable, only recently independent and very vulnerable country like FYR Macedonia has got to do business seriously with the EU, else it's going nowhere.
So. They need to clean up this whole rampant-piracy problem. But the economy's gone all to hell because of all the trouble there's been in the region lately. Can't afford to send huge sums off to Redmond. Solution: Ubuntu.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Jeezus, give it a rest will you? How many forums are going to post this crap? Continuing to do ad homien attacks on GNOME is seriously a waste of time.
I wish you'd find a more healthy outlet for this bitterness. This stuff only damages your reputation and no one elses. The image you posted clearly says "Galaxy" so one can probably determine who you are. You could have at least changed the graphic since people already pointed out that it reveals who you are at Osnews.
thanks,
sri
I believe the reference to piracy was saying that more strict encorcement or copywrite laws intended to stop piracy is good for linux because it forces those who cant afford windows to linux.
I just don't see where any type of piracy is involved here.
That was their point. The combination of the fact that people will have used linux in school, and it doesnt require piracy to run will hopefully bring about more use of linux.
No, I'm not making a joke - they're a poor war ravaged country and they have a huge problem with human trafficking - essentially they're a transit and destination country for women sold into slavery and sexual exploitation.
this guy evidently posts this everywhere:& comment_id=67157
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=12813
mod troll, please.
Gthat's gwhy gUbuntu guses Gnome, Gnot kde. Gno gproblem gwith gall gthose gpesky Ks.
And maybe Alexander the Great should conquer you for your insolence.
Most kids of the 80s used Apples in schools. Even today a quite sizable number of computers in schools are Apples, and yet Windows thrives.
Makes me wonder if it's possible to create a country that has 100% of its computers running on OSS. And methinks Ubuntu is a good choice here. Check out http://www.edubuntu.org/, Mark Shuttleworth seems genuinely interested in developing OSS for the not-so-developed countries. Its not just about the technology or the beauty or KDE vs Gnome, I think the philosophy of ubuntu fits in well with the market needs and the objectives here.
I love humanity, it is people I hate
Yes, whenever I see that I keep wondering why they talk about only one section of Greece before realizing they're not :/
(for those who don't know, Greece is divided into geographical sections, the northernmost of which is called Macedonia, it is the southern part of the ancient Macedonia)
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
I thought the best thing that ever happened to Free Software were Developers? Oh right, that was Windows...
There has been an error!
was this Alexander's own idea? Or did Aristotle tell him to do it?
No it's not, the official name is Macedonia, The Republic of, or in short just Macedonia. You want to tell me what my name is or what?
Follow the link to the macedonian FOSS site and look closely at the yellow box in the upper left corner, then click on it and read.
F.Y.R.O.M. is the name that the European Commission kindly asks us all to use, because of a spat with Greece over what the term "Macedonia" actually refers to. The Greeks claim that Macedonia is in fact a region spanning parts of Greece, "the F.Y.R.O.M" and Bulgaria, IIRC. The Macedonian people refer to their country as "Macedonia", just as Americans refer to the country they live in as "America", despite the fact that the term encompasses vast areas clearly beyond the borders of the U.S.A.
It is of course, no factual error to call the country F.Y.R.O.M. But you probably don't go around saying that Lhasa is in China, do you?
Here are some other good links
An Interview with Peter Cemerikic, CEO of Macedonian ISP On.Net
Arangel Angov of Free Software Macedonia talks about Linux
Lessons from Macedonia's national school wi-fi network
As a name, I don't think Ubuntu is any stranger than Red Hat, or Windows for that matter. I do take issue with their release titles (e.g. warty warthog, hoary hedgehog, etc.) but thats another story.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
The Macedonian language uses the phonetic Cyrillic alphabet. Every letter has its own consistent sound and every sound has (more or less, discounting unstressed vowels and voiced/unvoiced consonants in certain places) its own letter.
Nonaggression works!
Er, no. Does anyone?
If not, how about the CIA's World Factbook?
Which does say: "Macedonia; note - the provisional designation used by the UN, EU, and NATO is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)".
Any group of people can draw a shape on a map and call it anything they like, but what the rest of the world calls it is important too.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Ubuntu is named after the South African ideology of humanity towards others.
Denham's Dentrifice, Denham's Dentrifice, Denham's Dandy Dental Dentrifice, Denham's Dentrifice Dentrifice Dentrifice.
And so, flamewar aside; I have to agree with your point here.
2 8/2343249&tid=99
North America is currently caught in a cycle. "You don't need to know that" and "I can't understand why people would do that" are two common themes I hear in many day-to-day social conversations.... our kids don't take advantage of the learning resources they have because they are constantly taught that 'in the real world, you are rewarded not for what you do, but how good you look doing it.'
Which all also ties into the article we had last week,
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/
I find that everyone my wife and I have met from abroad and when abroad--Europe, Asia, Africa, even Australia in a different way--they seem to see the value in getting an appropriate education; understand the (introvert/thinking man)'s joy in activities like improving efficiency, building something for the sole purpose of destroying it; playing video games, actually hunting or harvesting the food you plan to eat, using UBUNTU Not just because you refuse to get BSOD'd again, but because you Like being able to actually improve the software you use.
I also see them rewarding intelligence and capability far more often than having a particular character.
All of these are also qualities I see in those who have been through times when they've really had to fight to survive, and those who have reached a certain level of success.... (which is relative to each of those I have had the pleasure of interacting with.)
This s something I strongly believe we will have to rectify; I believe I see the beginnings of change in a renewed work ethic in people among my age group, say 5 years back to 10 years ahead of me (19-34) which I can only hope bodes well for the turns society is going to take in the next 20 years.
I can only hope it means we won't be too technologically behind by tthe time I have school-aged children.
A couple fans told me that my last journal entry was mint; give it a shot. Hope you like.
I was meaning it as a joke, yes :) There were no umlauts or accents or anything with Mr Darko Arso's name, so I can only assume that it is pronounced how it looks.
They still have nothing on the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya! Which of course is used far more often than that pedestrian form, "Libya."
English is easier said than done.
I think the stupid CD cover art is far worse than the name.
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
Something to keep in mind about the Balkans:
They are - and have been - and probably will be - a political and religious powderkeg.
Greeks in particular have a few things to be pissed about. The religious leader of their faith is in a different country because of how the lines were redrawn post-WWI. Hundreds of thousands were massacred in Asia Minor during the '20s by the Turks, but no one there will admit to it. (And yes, I know, they didn't get the worst of it. It was still brutal.)
In 1452, they (and the rest of the Orthodox world) lost their highest cathedral to the Ottomans, who desecrated parts of Hagia Sophia and turned it into a mosque. (Think of it as though St Peter's were conquered by Iran.) Now it's used solely as a tourist site.
The name of Macedonia was assigned to the former southern province of communist Yugoslavia in 1952 by Tito.
There's no historic basis for the name; the region of Macedonia whence Philip and Alexander came from was much further south.
Yes, at the time, there was no concept of Hellenic unity; that developed mainly after the Latin conquest of Constantinople in 1204, which put the final nail in the coffin of unity between Rome and Constantinople. However, there was this understanding that they spoke the same tongue, they learned the same thought (pop quiz: who taught Alexander?), they spread the same ideas and believed in the same faith as everyone else on the peninsula now known as Greece.
The Balkans as a whole are rife with religious and ethnic hates going back centuries. The Catholics hate the Orthodox, and both hate the Muslims. The Croatians and Albanians and Serbians are at each others' throats, the Greeks hate the Albanians for taking part of their country, the Turks for the same reason as well as the historical stuff, and everybody hate the Roma (gypsies).
The only thing that kept a lid on Yugoslavia's ethnic groups, well, was the iron fist of Tito.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
Us Canadians live in America too. North America contains much more than just the USA, but somehow they are the ones we go around calling americans (I refuse).
Both times I've had to engage the command line it was because a network card wasn't working properly. In one case the builtin laptop wireless card wasn't turned on in the BIOS (don't ask). In the second case the desktop's ethernet card wasn't seated in the slot all the way. (Just enough, infuriatingly, to get power to make the activity light blink. Not enough to talk to the kernel.)
No operating system in the world could have dealt sensibly with either of those problems, so, for me, Ubuntu is batting 100% on hardware success in about 9 installations.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Not so. Any reputable archaeologist will tell you that ancient Macedonia is no divided between the Republic of Macedonia, Greece, and Bulgaria.
This is not a phenomenon localised to America, it is simply caused by people only being familiar with the character set they know. Until central Europeans in general learn the difference between "w" and "v" in English, they have no right to lecture English speakers for not being able to pronounce their own additions to Latin script. While we are discussing ignorance in pronunciation, I think you are probably not aware that most American accents are Rhotic, i.e. they would pronounce the two instances of the letter r that you added as if they were at the front of words. Thus, B-[ir]-l-[ir]-ni would only in fact be pronounced like the Hungarian Bölöni by an Englishman, a New Zealander or an Australian. Pronounced by an American this name would just sound plain awful (though insistently this applies to most words Americans pronounced) with lound rs and far too much time would be spent pronouncing the awkward rl and rn consonant transitions.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
The name in the title should appear as ArsoV (as is in the text)
So what do you call them? (I'm honestly curious)
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
"Arangel Angov met with Darko Arso, Technology Integration Manager at the Education Development Center..."
"...in touch with Darko Arsov and arranged a one-on-one interview..."
Arsov doesn't work nearly as well ;)
2.000.000 population, 5% internet penetration, 5.000 Ubuntu desktops -- instant 5% market share if you look at it one way.
No wonder this makes headlines.
"Good news, everyone!"
No, the whole story is a lie. The ISP that got the money from USAID has commercialized the WIFI and have put a price of 2$ for every 100MB... the name of the ISP is OnNet and the owner of the company Peter Cemerikic (of bosnian descent), is very well known for his criminal activities. Sadly, corruption still blooms in Macedonia, and people like Cemerikic are allowed to to walk free and spread lies instead of being behind bars (and waking by his new found boyfriend Earl). So, no, Macedonia is far from free WiFi, and far from anything free as long as the politicians are corrupted and judistical system still sleeps.
The name of Macedonia was assigned to the former southern province of communist Yugoslavia in 1952 by Tito.
My grandfather was born in 1924 and he was born in occupied Macedonian (in that time occupied by Serbia). Can you tell him in his face that he and his grandfather's are not Macedonians and somebody called Tito gave them that name.
Argue that they will loose all rights to their patents because they are not protecting them if they do release a corporate version.
Microsoft only became popular because of piracy.
I say, Microsoft, don't be soft, force ALL users to pay. I have a DVD with cracked XP's, I run a LEGIT 2000 install on a partition at home.
It will be the last Microsoft I use. For the next 2 years I am sure games will run on win2k.
After that, I am sure they will run on my OSS OS of choice.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
"Red Hat" means "Rode Hatred" in Swedish. That's a strange name, almost offensive.
But oh, I'm sorry, it has to be in English to be accepted!
"Stop failing the Turing test!" -- Dilbert
French speakers use "Étasunien" or "États-unien" and Spanish speakers use "Estadounidense". Both translate roughly as "United Statesian". Notice the absence of anything resembling the word "America".
Since many people outside the USA define America as the proper name for an entire CONTINENT, not just one country,they're quite unwilling to use the term "American".
Several alternative demonyms have been proposed.
Please please please please use the GNOME Logo from this century on Slashdot:
http://live.gnome.org/LogoGuidelines
"Macedonians" are Slavs. Nothing to do with Greeks.
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece) Alot of political games are played in the Balkans...
:)
Anyway, the Macedonian thema consists of alot of propaganda. Just as the people of F.Y.R.O.M. want to be recognized as the true Macedonians, there is a big number of people in Greece, that live in Macedonia(Greece) and also claim they are Macedonians (but beleive that Macedonians where always Greeks and they are _NOT_ a Macedonian-F.Y.R.O.M.ian minority as the US state department falsely stated in one of their reports). I'm sure in Bulgaria the same goes. So, naming F.Y.R.O.M. Macedonia could end up being a BIG DEAL. As it _IS_ unfair to dictate to the F.Y.R.O.M.ians what they are, it _IS ALSO_ unfair to dictate to people in Greece or Bulgaria that they are not Macedonian when their beleif of what Macedonian means is completely different. So things are not as simple as "Greece won't recognize F.Y.R.O.M. as Republic of Macedonia". I would like to discuss replies to this.
I lived in Macedonia for over 1 year, and open source is gaining ground. When I was consulting for ministry of finance, one of the objectives in creating new applications was to make sure they are not too tied in to Microsoft technologies. For example, they had this app that was dependant on Microsoft exchange server. We re-wrote it so any SMTP server could process the emails and convert them into SQL queries.
Intelligent Design
The other reply to your comment (though AC) disputes your criticism. And the story I cited doesn't say it's free - it explicitly says WiFi costs $18:mo, though it omits transfer fees (and surely plenty of other finer details). And what's the relevance of Cermerikic's "Bosnian descent"? Where are you getting your info, and what's your stake in the postwar Balkans?
--
make install -not war
Moderation -2
50% Troll
50% Flamebait
What, are you TrollMods Macedonian or something? Before your attack mods took effect, we actually got a couple of responses with very interesting info about the Macedonian WiFi, context for the Ubuntu story. So it really seem like you're medieval American theocrats, or more likely their zombie slaves. I'm going to burn you with a flag now.
--
make install -not war
Tried posting this before...
Apparently, nobody bothered to fact check the article or follow up on recent events.
I won't bother you with all the details, but what happened was a group effort of the Macedonian government, the Peoples Republic of China, USAID and Microsoft. Open source software was installed on SOME machines initially as a stop gap measure until the donations, money and resources could come together to rebuild the infrastructure. The end result is that Windows XP, and Microsoft Office were installed in all schools and on 6,000 computers donated by the PRC.
You can read more on the USAID site
I am of "balkan" background and I saw this post, discussing an interesting initiative that we should all be praising. It's great to see positive news coming from that part of the world, even if this is just a drop in the bucket. It's the vision that's important. Why can't we just keep the discussion to that? I thought, almost 15 years after the breakup of Yugoslavia, that perhaps, just maybe, I might read through this entire thread without seeing a regression into political bickering, mention of Tito, or the Turks, war or ethnic cleansing, etc. etc. But, alas, I was wrong.
Does an article about some Linux initiative in Germany need to involve at some point a discussion of WW2? Why can't we just leave the past in the past and look forwards?
One of my best friend's girlfriend is from Macedonia. He will be realy disappointed when he finds out that she doesn't exist.
this post contain no useful information, no need to mod it down
Does an article about some Linux initiative in Germany need to involve at some point a discussion of WW2? Why can't we just leave the past in the past and look forwards?
Right, just like those niggers we freed 50 years ago. Why can't they just look forward and not at the past?
There: Something at a specific location.
Their: Owned by someone.
Please make sure your english compiles.
You know what? I actually agree with you about the medieval theocracy thing. These Christianity-abusing extremists are causing the slow collapse of society. School systems requiring intelligent design? The far right trying to win votes in elections by accusing the other side of being "godless lib-er-als" and succeeding? This is abuse, and I am conservative and Christian! If they want to find someone who really is evil, they ought to examine Bush's number 2 and the events leading up to the Iraq War. But they're too afraid of finding planks in their eyes.
This has also shown up outside of politics. Anyone who has been keeping up with The Amazing Race: Family Edition knows how the Florida team will loudly proclaim their religious faith but act absolutely rotten to everyone else. It's these sorts of people who fuel my loathing for hypocrisy. And the "energy is liberated through blasphemy" troll isn't making anything any better.
What's worse, society is allowing these things. Remember the Dixie Chicks saying that Bush makes them ashamed of being from Texas? Do we hear them on the radio anymore? How about Janet Jackson and the Superbowl? We want to shoot CBS for that but commercials can push erectile dysfunction and natural male enhancement drugs at all hours? "Will someone please think of the children" indeed!
Examine the fall of the Roman Empire and compare it to modern American society. It sure frightens me.
You by no means deserve this troll moderation, and this is coming from someone who has you marked as "foe". Just thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent this frustration that has been building up for a while.
Okay, it's like this: The population is 2M. 5% of those have intertet access from home. That would be 2M * 0.05 = 100k machines. Deploying 5.000 new Ubuntu machines *compares* to 5% of the internet-connected home computers.
:-).
I say "if you look at it one way" and "comparable" because we're not looking at the same pool of machines. But being school machines they are very likely to have an influence where it counts - in potential new computer users (as opposed to zombified corporate Windows users
"Good news, everyone!"
Well, the problem is that you don't live here to see what is OnNet doing. Things are not like they seem.