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Australian IT Workers Concerned About Migrants
sien writes "In Australia it is being asserted that Australia's intake of migrants skilled in IT is taking jobs and lowering wages for Australian citizens. It appears that in all developed countries, not just the US, the case that immigrants are lowering wages for IT workers is being made. Would programmers in the developed world be better off without immigration that favors IT or is there an overall benefit for the industry with skilled workers going to the developed world and thus making the industry larger?"
Here comes the deluge of South Park "They took our jobs!" quotes...
fp?
Ride the skies
Oh wait, you're Australian, never mind. That's just the knee jerk reaction here in the US.
If this were a perfect world, maybe the competition would be welcome, where the most skilled would still get their high paying jobs. The problem really is in figuring out who is the most skilled. I see no reason why the most skilled shouldn't have the best jobs, and if you're the best man for the job, then more competition is no sweat, right?
-Da3vid-
I work at a software development firm in Melbourne, Australia. We've had a lot of new work recently and have had to recruit extra developers. It has been very hard to find competant staff. Sure, there are a lot of wannabe grads and deadwood who have drifted through a few years experience, but it's slim pickings in general.
Once again the boom bust cycle continues...
1. high demand results in increasing supply (more uni graduates and immigration)
2. demand deminishes resulting in supply being met
3. demand bottoms out => oversupply
4. low demand => less uni graduates and less immigration
5. demand begins to increase
6. goto 1
It's all very fine to point the finger at immigrant workers and blame them for vanishing jobs, but the question to be asked is why are they needed? Is it because immigrant workers are instantly, instinctively appealing to employers that they just feel a desperate urge to dump on their countrymen? If that were the case, then this would be a valid argument. But the IT immigration bias exists because the demand for IT labor exists. True, if there were no immigrant workers, then there'd be no shortage of X country IT jobs for people from X country, but there also would be a gaping personnel demand that X country's IT workers could not fill. The question should be why are immigrant IT workers getting jobs over the natives (and I use that term as respectfully as "immigrant")? And please don't come back with the "lower wage" stuff -- all the (few) job offers I got (being an "immigrant") were very competitive with those of local workers.
An old-timer with old-timey ideas.
Either the skilled immigrants are taking our jobs (competing under our labor laws), or the skilled foreigners are doing our jobs remotely.
Either the poor immigrants are responsible for all the poverty and crime, or else the birthrate is too low.
Admittedly, I didn't RTFA before deciding to post, but i have read it now. Basically, it's all summed up in the title. Some immigration analyst interviewed by what appears to be a newspaper says that too much skilled labor is causing a glut. Nothing new, for those of you who follow this kind of news in America, or any other country, i guess. damned foreigners (not that it's not a legitimately difficult situation).
A single source gave them the gist. Then at the end, here's the kicker:
But Australian Computer Society chief executive officer Dennis Furini said that while there was possibly an oversupply of entry-level programmers, there was a shortage of specialists in areas such as e-commerce and network security.
An Immigration Department spokesman said it relied on information from the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations to draw up the skilled occupation list.
"The Immigration Department has no information suggesting IT jobs should be taken off the skilled occupation list," he said.
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
In my experience the immigrants aren't coming from third world contries and being used to force down Australia's wages. Rather they are from other countries with major (well paid) IT industries and Australia is poaching hard to get talent from these contries.
Hence the higher wages for the off shore talent. They are commanding higher wages as there is hardly any competition for the job from within Australia.
Others may have different experiences, but I can only comment on what I have observed. The people I know aren't 'entry level', though not all of them have a degree (lots of experience though).
It's unlikely that isolationist nations can survive because trade secrets and laws protecting IP aren't sufficient to stop the flow of knowledge. The requirement is to stay competitive. Staying competitive requires a series of tradeoffs including bringing in cheaper labour.
Bite the bullet, it's better than the alternative of isolationist states at a constant threat of war.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
So are the slashdot editors racists now? Articles like this are just sickening. Having people from different cultures migrating into one's country enriches their country by diversifying it. I'm just naseauted that garbage likes this gets through.
Frankly, if an immigrant gets my job than it simply means he is more qualified than I am. Survival of the fittest. Also throws a wrench into the arguments racists have about non-whites being dumb when they're usually smarter and better workers than whites, as this article seems to indicate.
Go back to India.
Australia is more racist than Japan. Generally speaking. No offense to non-racist Australians, I recognize there are a heck of a lot of you. But I'm just saying... wow. Lots and lots who are on the opposite side of that table.
Just look at the history of Australia's immigration policy and notice how it swing back the close-minded direction again in the mid 90's.
Immigration is a POSITIVE economic force.
statistics available at http://www.immi.gov.au/statistics/
Foreigners really, I mean REALLY love doing over the phone support. Us IT workers have absolutely nothing to worry about.
"Would programmers in the developed world be better off without immigration that favors IT or is there an overall benefit for the industry with skilled workers going to the developed world and thus making the industry larger?""
I think that "buggy-whip" ways of doing IT will have to go if IT workers are to survive. And be improved by the software equivalent of "automation"
"Natives concerned foreigners may take resources."
.. but what's the difference? Aborigines aren't getting their inheritance land back any time either.
Here's an aboriginal perspective.
Well why wouldn't "Australians" be concerned? One wouldn't want to be visited the same fate their ancestors visited upon the dark race.
Consider it similar to the Israelis claiming their land back after being driven from it. Except now it's by those who had no prior claim
When you are living on the fruits of stolen inheritance, don't get pissed off if someone else theives it from you.
Nobody has the "right to a job". Better get welfare or some other subsidy than do a job that someone else can do better for less.
If you aren't able to make an original and meaningful contribution, you should consider working for McDonald's wages. Working at McDonald's is harder than sitting in front of a computer browsing slashdot.
I'm a Californian that came down to Oz just around the bubble bursting. Anyway, my wife is an Aussie so I used her for the green card. I'm making more in Oz then I ever did during the bubble years in NorCal (inflation included). Course, "I's be one of dem damned fur-en-ers" the article discusses I suppose (though I now have my Aussie citizenship), but I am most assuredly not at the bottom of the market, pay wise.
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
assuming equal proficiency, if someone will do for $10 what i want $100 for, then obviously the guy who will do it for $10 will get the job
whether he lives in bangalore, san francisco, or melbourne
go ahead and fight that, go ahead and wail about the injustice of it all
what are you going to do about it? what can you do about it?
are you saying it's exploitation of the guy who makes less? well he doesn't have to deal with the real estate market in san francisco... so rather than complain about how little the guy in india is getting paid, why isn't the problem that you are getting too much money for what you do?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
how many illegal aliens are there in the US?
a brazillion.
I do not accept czechs.
Firstly, it is impossible to get a job without a permanent residence status. The actual application and documents take about 7-8 months to get reviewed and approved (or declined). This gives a good chance to all Australians to get jobs before any immigrants, who finish their degrees at the same time.
Second, There is a language/cultiral barrier. I personally know people who have applied for IT jobs, and have been rejected on the basis of "would not fit in the corporate culture" excuse. I can sense that if an employer is presented with two equally skilled job applicants he/she would choose the Australian. I can understand this, and I respect this. Also, I know that the society is very culturally tolerant, but still...
I suppose that lower wages for immigrants is not an issue here, as it is not possible (in 95% of the cases) to obtain employment without permanent residence visa, and once you have permanent residence status the companies do not differentiate between Australian Citizens and Permanent Residents (oh well, probably the government and the military do).
So - please do not complain about immigrants getting your jobs. If you want jobs - study harder and get better degrees. And also - I have heard that about 60% of all jobs are given without formal advertisements - do you think it is that easy for an immigrant to get one of these??Everything is a commodity these days, its a case of adapting to this mindset and differentiating yourself. People migrating to australia (or other developed nation with an IT industry) for work will have a much smaller effect overall than work migrating elsewhere from australia.
Doubling the number of developers doesn't mean you double the size of the industry. Some developers will leave the field, others will be discouraged from taking entry level jobs, etc.
The last point is something worth considering. My friends and I all have solid technical educations. A generation ago we would be leading the charge to get more students to pursue similar academic and career tracks. It's hard work, but it also meant you could have steady employment later.
Now we all discourage people from pursuing technical degrees. The risk is too high. Senior people may still be in demand (although we have to wonder about that as well), but entry-level positions?
For that matter it's not just IT. Higher education is getting much more expensive at the same time that skinflint republicans are cutting student assistance. That forces many students to be more focused on a "trade school" university education than the more well-rounded one of prior generations. K-12 education, it goes without saying, is now teaching to the test to avoid draconian measures under NCLB. (Never mind what a high-performing school district can do. How do you show improvement when you already peg the test? These districts will be punished for being "successful.")
That's a minor pain today, but where will this country be in 20 years? I don't begrudge other countries growing their IT economy, but what happens when everyone would rather stay at home with a higher standard of living than they could get here?
There's a term for what the US is doing -- "eating our seed corn". Businesses may need to look at the next quarterly statement, but the government should be taking a longer view. Maybe the solution is to increase immigration so these skilled workers are more motivated to stay, maybe it's to limit immigration so our students have a motivation to make the necessary investment to be highly skilled workers in 20 years. But AFAIK that question isn't even on the table.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Let me get this straight. TFA's asserting that the Australian Govt lets in "too many" immigrants with IT skillz, and you see this as evidence of inherent Australian immigration policy racism.
Uh-huh.
Or are you just doing your usual (since you've apparently "said it before") knee-jerk reaction to anything involving the words "foreign" and "immigrants" ?
(More racist than Japan? Yup. Sure. You need to get out more, and login less.)
Amused Caucasian
This movie is as much about immigrants and an (but not the) Aulstralian response as the article: Romper Stomper
My page.
"An introductory Economics text will speak to the need for labour to be willing to move to where there is work."
Hello France!
"Whether as individuals or as groups, those who battle the idea of economic globalization are irrelevant in the face of the movement toward freetrade zones and trade agreements."
Penalty box for using free in the context of zones, and agreements.
"It's unlikely that isolationist nations can survive because trade secrets and laws protecting IP aren't sufficient to stop the flow of knowledge"
We're talking labour, not information.
"Bite the bullet, it's better than the alternative of isolationist states at a constant threat of war."
Assuming the sole cause of wars is "isolationism".
All of the Aussie IT workers that aren't working in London ?
Alex
ps - Hi Neil.
Now my ISP's customer service department has another excuse for being run by Malaysians who don't speak English the goods. >_ (I'm in Australia, by the way :P)
Perhaps they should stop blaming others and increase the standard of what is being taught at Universities and the last few years of secondary/high school. The Australian IT industry is a shame compared to other countries.
He also said the Australian Computer Society, which accredits the IT qualifications of applicants for permanent residency, should introduce tougher English tests and insist that overseas students spend three years studying IT in Australia, rather than two.
The Australian Computer Society? Oh, these are the same guys who think IT 'pros' should be certified just like doctors and nurses. When its illegal to be an uncertified IT guy in Australia, please tell me because I will happily show the door to anything trying to enforce it.
They can do all the work, we'll be down the beach.
Task Mangler
Embrace change.
you guys supporting this 'no foreign workers' paradigm should be ashamed of yourselves. you're a racketeering mob if ever their was one: cronyist, corrupt and extortionist. take the medical fraternity in australia as an example of where this 'jobs for qualified locals only' thinking goes. the Australian Medical Association (AMA) has exactly these kinds of racketeering rules laid out in law (you can't practice medicine without being an AMA member; doing so is the equivalent of a felony) to prevent foreigners from taking up positions and possibly denying them the rates that allow them to upgrade their porsches every year. This practice continues while lack of specialists and rural GPs drives huge hospital waiting lists and ever-increasing costs of healthcare. And yet here is an example of a foreign worker: my wife is eastern european, and through her I have met older friends of the family, one of whom was a respected neurosurgeon in her country of origin. A neurosurgeon you say? surely she must be practising her incredibly difficult-to-gain level of education and experience to treat desperately ill patients on said waiting lists, right? wrong. she worked as a cleaner for many years while trying unsuccessfully to gain AMA membership, and now owns a small business completely unrelated to medicine and has left her hopes behind. The AMA is a cabal of price-fixers who use thier fraternity to starve supply and to artifically raise costs. You IT 'no foreign worker' bastards are just the same. If they can't place someone locally, or the candidates who do apply are shithouse, then foreign workers should be sought. If there's an oppurtunity to give gainful employment to qualified personnel from underprivelidged nations then we should jump at the chance. do you think its fair that an argentinian programmer should have to work for $20US a day to barely feed his family and drive a taxi at night to survive so you can be guaranteed of being overpaid for a job you're underqualified for, even though his code runs rings around yours? ps. yes, aussies are racist. %93 supported sending the NV Tampa home while on board Iraqis starved and faced either death or destitution at home. add to that concentration camps for refugees. and aborigines probably don't appreciate the name 'the lucky country' you insensitive twats.
It is not more qualified, generally it is cheaper. I know of one company that hired people H1B and paying them $2400/month and putting in 10 hour days. The owner of the company said that that is the top pay that they pay there, based on this woman being the highest paid employee. I have dealt with H1B people who were not very qualified.
Not to say that some H1Bs are not more qualified, but many are not really more qualified. Many employers put in fake advertising, or fake job requirements (ie. in 1997 requiring at least 5 years of Win98 programming). Or they advertise for people with a skill set thayt they don't require, ie. C/C++, Windows, Palm OS, Apple DOS, CP/M, RSTS/e, VM/370, SPSS, Basic, Snobol, Lisp, Perl, and Linux, but they are hiring someone to install linux on PCs. Then the employer claim that they cannot find a qualified person.
Once the H1B is applied for, the H1B must stay at the employer for a period of time. Meaning, they are stuck.
Fight Spammers!
A lot of the jobs I've been looking at are pretty blase in their requirements. They seem to want degrees and a decade of experience for jobs that really don't require so much. For myself, I'm a Canadian with a background in system administration (Linux/Windows networks) and general IT support (hardware, networking, etc). Employers ask for the kitchen sink, and there are plenty out there who will jump up shouting about experience they don't have - making it hard for me to find my own in. Again, I'm not an Austrlian so it's more difficult for me to get my foot in, but I'd imagine that with the drones of locals, foreigners and others who are willing to greatly overrate themselves there's a lot of good wood hidden amoungst the deadwood.
I have been going there on and off for the last 4 years, and every time i go, i pick up industry rags, employment papers and all that lot, and check out the local IT scene there for software/IT work. let me tell you, its damn thin on the ground there, wages are laughable, and australia has a ton of overqualified people that cannot get a job. the worst problem is, not once did i see any evidence of an environment that fostered a silicon valley or whatever type of rampant innovation and development. maybe there is some geographic area that i am missing there, but if there is a bay area, or redmond, or boston there, i couldnt find it. it made me sad, cos i love the country, the people, and most everything else, but after 15 years in the IT industry in most of the hottest markets in the US, i'm fully accepting of the fact that i *will* have to change industries radically in order to keep my head afloat, should i decide to relocate.
>> Australian IT Workers Concerned About Migrants
........ "
:-)
That's a deliberately misleading headline. Read the article or don't waste your time, here's a summary
Australian IT workers haven't made any comment.
The comment was made by a consultant longing for long-past Y2K golden days.
"Bob Kinnaird, of labour market consultants Kinnaird and Associates, said
I can't blame The Age for publishing it.
After all, if it bleeds, it leads
Why is a global free market for goods considered good, but that for labor bad by so many inhabitants of "developed" nations?
Would white miners in South Africa be better off without competition from black miners?
There's no way to stop history.
This already happened several times in the Human history. One of the most kown case the "Fall of Roman Empire".
People coming from the borders substituted the Romans in almost all the "lower" layers of the society, thus actually changing the Roman Empire itself. Soldiers were not Roman at all, later officers and generals and finally even the Emperors themselves.
The same happened with economy. First the farmers and the goods traders, later the manufacturers. In the end of the Empire all the stuff needed to keep Rome alive came from abroad, even the wheat.
And Rome ended to be nothing more than a village from a big city it used to be.
The "empire" people concentrate into consuming resources instead of producing them and into looking at the world instead of taking care of it. The people from the borders try to exploit this by providing those goods, thus dumping the market and killing the "local" manufacturers and traders with lower costs and prices.
Most part of the western society will be replaced in a near future by "border" people. And there is no way to stop this.
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
This is a small planet people, and everyone is just trying to get through life as best as they can.
Don't blame immigrants blame the employers that take them and pay them lower wages, that's your countrymen alright.
I work in Australian IT and this topic never comes up.
I look around and yes, I'm one of two people in my team of 10 that are Australian, but who cares?
Like most others we are more concerned with our roles being outsourced off shore.
It's kind of cool being surrounded by different people for different backgrounds - I'm proud of the lack of discrimination and mixed culture that is in my industry.
This topic has never been a concern in any Australian workplace I've worked in. It is sensationalistic journalism. What next? Are our IT workers getting fat? Women vs. Man ratios. The dateless many at Star Trek conventions. *sigh* Next!
From the article:
"People lured to Australia on the promise of lucrative jobs in IT get here and find they don't have a hope of getting a job," he said.
But Australian Computer Society chief executive officer Dennis Furini said that while there was possibly an oversupply of entry-level programmers, there was a shortage of specialists in areas such as e-commerce and network security.
It might've been easier on all parties involved to have highlighted that, according to the article, that the shortage involved was in e-commerce and network security. The oversupply is just going to make the jobs worthless if the companies have an enormous supply of workers. The promise of lucrative jobs is then a blatant lie - but perhaps the influx is desired by companies for that very reason.
Either way, that's fairly unfortunate. The immigrants and the natives both lose in the long run. The fierce competition could easily drive down wages. If you're willing to work for less, you're hired; it may not apply toward the highly skilled jobs, but it's still employed to a degree.
On the extreme, it seriously cuts future supply by discouraging future students from IT. Money is a powerful number, and high unemployments means a certain lack of money. And then the cycle continues, as someone put it earlier.
Fun Zoid RPG
nationality != race
Yes, there are some countries where race is defined by nationality. However, in places like Australia and the US, that is not true. I suggest you learn and memorize that fact. It will make your discussions with Australians and Americans more understandable and less hostile.
An engineer from China or India is going to lower the wages of first-world engineers regardless of where he or she works. It is actually better for Australia to let these people come and work in their country - at least they can then collect the taxes as their own corporations make profits. Leave them in China or India and they will just compete from there, to the benefit of China and India and their companies.
You cannot stop the information from crossing the border, and that is what matters in the end. Since the primary product of science and much engineering is information, there is little one can do to stop globalization of these markets.
Again, a kneejerk reaction putting words in my mouth that are not mine. (Incidentally, yes, my post was a knee-jerk response to "foreign" "immigrants" "Australia" "they took our jobs".)
While I do find a policy or two racist, I think my comment was more geared at the TFA, which I don't take to be an unbiased authority on the subject. If you look at some of the other posts by Aussie IT people I think you'll find that this paper is perhaps a somewhat distorted view of the situation.
Also, I like how the first response to my original post lends support to my position, intentionally or not.
the concept of a written zero in math was first invented in india (i'm not joking, that is a real assertion)
;-P
so therefore, we all owe india our jobs
because without the indian contribution of zero to the world of computers, 00101110101010111 would just be 1111111111
if you hadn't noticed, now i am joking
does that line of reasoning sound stupid?
it makes about as much sense as yours in terms obligations and debts
well wait...
actually, it makes more sense than what you are saying
if i had added "and the indian who devised the concept of a written zero in mathematics gave his life and died of a cerebral hemorrhage in the process of conceiving the idea of zero" then my words would be as stupid as your words
"loopy" doesn't even begin to describe what you just said
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I attended a major Austalian University majoring in Comp Eng. Now I work in Silicon Valley. So I can talk about both worlds on a personal test.
..etc
Australia is a country with small population (20 mil) compared to US (~300 mil). There isn't a robust IT job market. This has lead to a massive 'IT recruiting' industry. These are the people who advertise with ludicrous(sp?) terms like
5years + Java experience is a must (this was when Java was publicly available for only 3 years)!
Also the recruiter guy interviews you has very little knowledge of Tech field and will throw some standard tech questions
- why virtual destructiors for C++
Also other useless crap like
- where do you see yourself in 3yrs, 5yrs, 10 yrs (do I really want to tell the guy, that I will start my own company in 5 yrs!)
- what is your weakness, how do you over come it
Also there is no shortage of other 'BS' like
- writing a good cover letter, cover letter?!
- going to interview with full suit & tie
When I came to Silicon valley (during the dotcom bubble), I went to a career fair, aced 3 interviews on the spot, went to the company for more interviews. Had another 5 interviews with Eng team and got a job offer, all within days. All interview questions were spot on, trying to figure out if I had really done the things I have mentioned in my resume. I was interviewed by geeks and architects who knew their deal. All the while wearing jeans & t-shirt!
When I went back to Aus (my wife is Aus) a recruiter tried to set me up for an interview. He said 'wear a business suit with a tie'. After working in Silicon Valley culture for years, I didn't have the stomach to go through the BS again. So I declined.
thanks for reading.
fuck protectionism
i thought the whole idea is that the contrast between rich and poor areas of the world should level out, that this is progress
or i suppose you like regions of disgusting wealth contrasted with disgusting poverty in this world?
exactly what does the idea "progress" mean to you? or do you think progress isn't important?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Ok, so I'll have to start with telling that I'm also something like an immigrant where I live now (no, not in the US or Australia), meaning I have the nationality of this country but I was born in another country and then later immigrated here, and I'm doubly involved in anything IT-related, having both IT and EE degrees, and working in the field.
What I can tell from my experience and from knowing _a lot_ of what you'd call immigrant IT workers - not just who came here, but who went into western Europe and/or US - so what I can tell is that they didn't go because they want to live there forever, or because they didn't have or couldn't have got good jobs here, or because they wanted to take US jobs from US people, but because the money. Nothing else, but the money. Working a few years in the US can really mean a _very_ large boost financially for very many people from very many countries.
And thing is, IT/CS/EE-related people usually are a bit more "brave" in going in other countries to work, since if you're skilled, there are _very_ many opportunities, positions and jobs that you can get.
And added to the above, I don't think that the ever larger global flow of "work force", talent and skilled people is a bad thing. In fact I think just the opposite of that, and if I were in the position I'd very much encourage that.
Even I would have had some opportunities to go and work in some other countries, but I prefer being and licing where I am now, so I didn't go. But today I would go, since e.g. in my current job I'd only be able to buy a 40-50m^2 flat in about 20-25 years (I'm just getting 27 now). Now think about that for a minute.
By stopping foreign workers from getting into one's country to live and/or work one can only achieve one thing: hate.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Well, there might be an impact anyway. There are a number of jobs in IT, which either can not be done by overseas outsourcing, or companies prefer a guy who comes to work every day (or night, for that matter).
Still, in general I would agree.
that's not right
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Some clarification.
This issue is not like the H1B visa program.
The Australian government has cut funding to its Universities, to hit two crows with the one stone, they decided to introduce a skilled immigration policy where you can study for two years in Australia and gain residency. Australia gets money out of its immigration, whilst filling skill shortages.
The majority of people who do this, do a two year post-grad course and apply for residency through the Australian Computing Society (ACS). They are, commonly, Computer Science and Engineering graduates with little or no industry experience.
The government figured the Universities would be happy, getting money from the Overseas students.
The ACS would stop lobbying them, because they get money in fees. And the IT industry would be happy because this would fill the skills shortage. And even the R&D industry would be happy because they would have plenty of graduates about the place.
Unfortunately this has not filled the skills shortages, the R&D industry is still going belly up, and Australia's Universities are going down the plughole.
The ACS are losing members, but they deserve it anyway.
Historically, you blame the immigrants for everything as is currently happening. This is fairly easy when your media don't really cover anything outside their own borders that does not involve their citizens being tried for drug offences or having a fine old time shooting up potential immigrants, oops, I mean terrorists.
:v)
The classic next move is to round up the immigrants into internment camps - which I see the Australians are already doing, so they seem to know the game plan.
Then, as the Nazis did, you whip the population up into a racist frenzy using the media and find someone to declare war on. G W Bush should be able to help there.
Oh well, we can hope I'm wrong, eh?
Vik
I for one would welcome the situation where at least 50% of the people in this trade were forced to rethink their professional lives, realize that they totally SUCK at abstract product development anyway and take some DIFFERENT profession.
Incompetent coworkers ruin my work situation and I doubt that more than a fraction of the people working in IT are actually mentally fit for their tasks.
I sure do!!!
To bad I'm not into 3 inch poles though, as I prefer a full meal rather than a snack.
And yes, I love to suck pole, and no, yours isn't big enough.
So fuck off you pizza-faced retard, and grow a pair, instead of using your mother's to hide behind.
nope, no head from me
not yours.
never will get it.
nope.
not ever.
now go fantasize about your mom's three week old undies and masturbate whilst rocking in a dark corner sucking your thumb, you prozac-eating, ritalin-addicted bitch.
Best regards,
Jennifer a.k.a. a hot girl ready for action, but not with you.nope.no-way. not you. nope.
welcome our new low payed IT overlords
*ducks*
Call to all migrants - Do NOT settle for a lower salary.
Or maybe the migrants didn't have a choice but accept worse salary conditions, to at least allow them to re-start their lives? Most people don't imagine the cost to migrate from one country to another.
Whomever says "migrants lower the average salary" and complain about it should be ashamed of themselves.
Obviously the salaries were lower because the migrants were discriminated against 'natives' in the first place. ('Natives' between quotes because we're talking Australia after all) That problem is not solved by blaming the migrants and discriminating them twice over. It is only solved by not discriminating migrants to start with.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
Australian Computer Society now wants to introduce a test for competency in cricket, the national sport of Australia. The step is expected to discourage a heavy influx of foreign workers. er..wait a minute..isnt cricket the stuff then Indians play day and night... guess it wont work out....
7-8-9-10-0
Yeah, all those highly skilled, white bloody South Africans fleeing the ANC regime - and emigrating to Australia, New Zealand and Canada....
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
I once got an offer from an australian company, when I stated my salary I wanted they turned me down, cheapskates.
I personally know companies which are on the brink of disaster because they've hired staff on the basis of how cheaply they're willing to work, rather than how skilled and experienced they are.
When some guy with poor English-language skills, who's barely touched a PC before in his life, but waving an MCSE happily works for $22,000 per year, and no benefits, the PHBs squeal with joy.
There aren't many skilled and experienced people from offshore working around here...those guys have good jobs in their own countries, or places which pay even more than here. Sadly now that the migrant workers have shattered the pay expectations of skilled and experienced locals, it seems as if just about everywhere else is now paying more than here.
Perhaps I'll take my skills and experience to some other country which pays really well by comparison, and deprive a local there of work. It's only fair.
Wait a second, that Linus Torvalds isn't American nor living in America. That slimy cheeseball! All the dollars that could have gone here didn't. If this isn't a clear argument, I don't know what is. Ok, seriously now, the joke is over. This same thing happened way back in the day of the Guilded Age in America. I find it so interesting that this is a repeat of the past... A long time ago, immigrants flooded the country and desperately needed work. They found jobs in meat packing factories and rolling cigars in their own homes. Children didn't go to school, it was much more important for them to go home and roll cigars or work in a factory. Child labor skyrocketed. Jobs became dangerous. One would have to work long hours in a dangerous situation. Children aged too quickly. Minors came down with blacklung, but they were lucky. The poor meat packers got it the worst. This was the day of the rober barrens known as Carnagie and Rockefeller. These guys made enormous sums of cash. They quickly became monopolies and then they control the country. A long came a man. This particular man had a particular personality. He was daring, cocky, intellegent, and best of all, moral. He dismantled the political machine in New York. He was the leader of the Rough Riders. He was one of the greatest presidents. He was Theodore Roosevelt. Teddy (as he hated to be called), became president and he then called the rober barrens over to talk to them. He asked them if they could please pay their workers better and improve their factories. They laughed. You don't laugh at the leader of the Rough Riders. The Sherman Anti-trust Act was pulled into effect from what it usually was used for. These gigantic businesses were shackled. This even was known as, "Power being taken from Wall Street and returned to Penslevania Avenue." Of course, this guy was also a war mongeror and an imperialist, but who's perfect? Now a similar event has occured. However, I think this turn of events is much different. For one, some laber cannot be exported. Try adding a Cat5 cable when you're 2k miles away. Who know? Time will tell.
the work will go where the labour is. And _that_ is even cheaper.
Perhaps this consultant needs to open an Indian office.
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
i worked in an investment bank in nyc for a bit with a chinese guy from hunan. he was an intern still in business school. after a few months, he left to pursue better business opportunities, and to drop out of business school. i asked him what the hot lucrative opportunity it was that was seducing him.
it was home, hunan, china.
fuck the west. fat, rich, gas guzzling, whiny, sense-of-priveledge lazy west. spoiled children. we're a shadow of who our grandparents and great-grandparents were. we deserve to decline.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Don't forget that many Australian go straight from university to see the world. Well, when I say "world", I mean "London", with some weekend trips into Europe. Well, when I say "Europe", I really mean the Shepherds Bush Walkabout and Fulham Slug.
Just kidding, back to the subject. Many of those are trained IT people, who tend to stick around here for quite some time before, not in the least because of the high wages you can make here, especially if you do contracting work. And that is why they stick around for quite a while too. I know; I work with many of them.
This, of course, upsets some of the locals here and also is one of the reasons Australia needs to import IT talent back into the country. But it is not just foreign specialists that make more than locals, the same it true for people returning with "London experience"; something not limtted to IT, but other fields too.
I am planning to reap the benefits of that later this year as my Australian wife and I plan to move from London to the land down under.
There is simply the suggestion that the answer to your question "why are they needed?" is that they aren't, at least in current numbers/skill levels. The statement that "IT immigration bias exists because the demand for IT labor exists" is all well and good but it should be proven. According to a news story I just saw 60% of IT university places in Australia are now filled by overseas students as it is becoming a less attractive career option to local people due to lack of demand. Part of the reason it is still attractive to overseas students is a good chance of getting residency through the skilled migrant program even though there isn't necessarily a shortage of entry-level programmers.
The skilled migrant program is a good thing and can benefit both migrants and Australia as a whole. However it does need to be considered carefully and designed to meet everyones needs. I don't think that is the question at all, especially as it relates to entry level programmers. It's not about 'stealing jobs'. It's about whether the demand is really there warrant luring people from around the globe with the promises of residency and prosperity.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
As the article itself says, the real problem is with entry-level IT workers, not with experienced,
skilled ones. What is going on is that the Australian government still classes an IT qualification as
a preferred one for granting Permanent Residency (equivalent to a US green card), so overseas students
are attracted to study IT courses in Australia. But at the end, there just aren't enough jobs
locally for them. And at the same time, the oversupply of IT graduates this causes and the poor
job prospects that IT graduates face is driving local students away from doing IT courses. Really,
the problem here is not one of the government failing to maintain barriers to the free movement
of labour (as many posters here are suggesting), but artificially boosting a particular segment
and class of labour (entry-level IT graduates) through a kind of "immigration subsidy". The results
are not pretty. I know of many overseas students who have completed masters, and even PhD degrees,
in IT in Australia and, after working at McDonalds for a few months, give up and return to their
own countries.
I am one of those immigrants. In September I finally got my visa and in a couple of months I am going to move to Sydney. What's interesting, though, is how easy and straightforward has it been to get the visa.
For those who don't know it, the initial assessment you can do yourself, with help of so called "point test" - e.g. you get 30 point for being under 30 years, 20 points for successfully passing the English test, etc. You also get some points for you profession. Being a programmer, I got 60 points - it's the largest amount you can score for you occupation. As far as I know, all computer-related occupations get you 60 points. I was wondering, if Australian IT job market is really that bad, why the authorities cannot adjust occupational scores accordingly?
I've also heard about the difficulty of finding a programmer's job in Australia, especially for an immigrant. And I do feel rather uncomfortable leaving relatively-well paid (by the local standards) job here for a complete uncertainty. And yet, I am so fed up by ghastly Moscow winters, that I look forward to seeing this warm country no matter what.
I work for a Gov't dept in Australia -- web stuff mainly, a large system using PHP, Linux, database. We've been trying to hire new people for weeks (we're advertising in Sydney).
We use an interview plus a timed skills test which all current employees have passed -- it differentiates the sheep and goats better than anything else we've tried. Even (?) after being referred by a HR company, and having a sufficiently interesting C.V. to make an interview, most applicants have been very seriously underskilled, and at least a few have seemed dangerously incompetent.
All of which means (1) Our current staff are feeling pretty good about their job security, and (2) we really do not care where applicants come from. We just want to find them.
Disclaimer: I'm an Australian, born and bred in one of Australia's most unique spots, but as soon as I was able to work, I left Australia .. and have been making my living, ever since, as a programmer, outside Australia.
.. your lifestyle is the problem. The world needs you to leave.
You want to make money as a programmer, have a wonderful life, and do something worthwhile? Go to a 3rd world country and teach them to write code.
The world needs far less nationalism, far less 'right to my nations lifestyle', and far less elitism. The world needs more cooperation, more participation between cultures, and more direct influence on the ability of the poor, by the well-educated, such that equality does occur. Complaining about 'migrants taking our jobs' is the most narrow-minded, stupid, un-educated point of view in this modern age of technological wonder; living in a village with your laptop and giving the local kids a logon so you can learn their language properly is a far, far greater way to spend ones life.
I can't stand the 'lifestyle trap' that Australians think they have a God-given right to. Australia never, ever belonged to whitey. To my Australian compatriates, I say, get the hell out of town and live a little
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I'm moving to Australia from the UK next month and I don't remember seeing any IT jobs on the Skilled List. At the moment, the Skilled Occupations List is made up of medical jobs or else such things as panel beaters, electricans, chefs, welders etc - i.e. skilled, but not automatically professional, occupations. We've got a permanent visa through my wife who is a nurse.
As far as I am aware, only an obscure or very specific IT speciality will get you a work visa for Australia at the moment.
As for all of these overseas students graduating and getting work visas, is it not safe to argue that a large number of them will be making a beeline for the U.S. anyway ?
I know for a fact, that if two people with the same qualifications are being compared for a job using resumes, the person with a middle-eastern sounding name will not get the job.
Companies love immigration that allows highly skilled workers to get work visas. Because they can pay them less money than American citizens, they can't easily leave for a job making more money and don't complain about shitty treatment.
H1-B visas should be cut back.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I have worked in IT for eight years in Melbourne, Australia. I have never taken a pay cut, I have never been pushed out to make way for foreign labour (cheap or otherwise) and I have increased my salary/contract rate by at least 10% every year without fail.
Working in IT is an easy job and paid much better than many jobs that are much more dangerous or difficult (physically or mentally). I find that generally I can get away with nearly anything - turn up late, leave early, break the dress-code even 'work from home'. And I take home a six-figure salary.
IT staff like to complain just as much as those in other professions, but in reality they have a lot less to complain about.
Oh dear. Let's do some really simple economics here...
Migration moves people from where they can work cheaply, to a place where they can charge more for their labour.
These people won't stop existing if they are not allowed to migrate. They will do IT work in their home country.
Since India, China et al have lower wage rates, he will work for less.
Thus the world supply of IT people will be sold at a lower average rate.
Migration actually holds up the price of labour for those skills which are portable across countries.
It is also the case that an IT person costs quite a bit of money to build. This comes from a combination of parents and the home state.
However if they migrate, the return in the form of taxes and the general economic use of their work is for the benefit of the country that he now lives in. In effect countries that do not retain their skilled people are transferring wealth to those that do.
Also, at the risk of political incorrectness. Look at economic migrants in terms of their quality. Those who have been born with some grave issue affecting their physical health or general intelligence, find it much harder to move.
Thus they are on average better people to parent the next generation of citizens, and it is that generation who will be working to support us when we retire.
If we look at history over the last 200 years, we can observe the fate of those countries who kept out foreigners.
China, which was abjectly garbage. It's current growth is based upon low wages. Crap pay is a sign of past economic failure, not success.
Other socialist countries like Russia and E.Europe kept people out for a long time. Anyone want to emulate them in any way whatsoever ?
Japan kept people out, stayed backward until the Americans forced it open.
Conversely look at America, Oz, NZ et al.
Easy.
Fact is that it's now a global market for labour. When I left university having done computers, IT people were so rare that if 2 strangers in this area bumped into each other they often struck up conversation because they felt part of a small group. I guess there's more than 80 million full time IT people in the world. In the early 80s, most people on Earth worked in mud hut or gulag economies. Effective world work force of about 250 million, in W.Europe, N.America, and various fragments of the former British empire, like Oz, HK, Nz, and Singapore. Now there's nearer two billion people in the world economy, and growing.
Lots more jobs, but you have to make sure you are equipped to compete.
Dominic Connor,Quant Headhunter
I am a recent immigrant to Australia from Silicon Valley. At the risk starting a flame war, most of the IT gurus I've met here are pretty weak compared to what I'm used to. I think that's mostly because of the unique area of the world I come from. In any case, since I've been here, I may have "taken someone's job" because I had better skills and experience, however, I have become an active member of the community. I volunteer some of my time doing free IT work for a couple of non-profits, and I have also been training up a few new Aussie contacts so they will be able to go out and take a better job for themselves. So.. I may be taking one job, but I am also upping the standards here. Further, Australia is experiencing a major IT 'brain drain' as students go to study abroad and end up staying there permanently. Because of this, there are incentives for foreign IT professionals to immigrate. Namely, we get major extra points during our immigration assessments if we have IT qualifications or experience. I think that unlike Silicon Valley, Australia is not very integrated and there is a big fear of this country being overtaken by non whites. It wasn't until the 70's that even eastern Europeans were able to immigrate here, and only recently has it been easier for Asians. No.. I don't think it's about Australians getting their jobs stolen.. I think it's more likely xenophobia.
Well it was said that there is a glut of IT workers left over from Y2K, A LOT of these people are immigrants. As an aussie, I can safely say that nearly everyone who I worked with on Y2k I wouldn't hire again. The simple fact of the matter is that they suck. They were good in the short term, but they weren't the best people on the face of the earth for IT.
In aus if you are any good you can find work, skilled workers might be taking one or two jobs (In the scheme of things) new people don't find good jobs fast, and it takes good contacts to find good work. Simple as that.
I can also say, in Sydney at the moment, finding really good developers is hard, real hard. If immigrants are coming in with those skills, let them come. Australia was built around immigration, white Australians 250 years ago didn't exist (The dutch on the west coast weren't settled, so they don't count).
From the people who I have spoken to in the past immigrants etc, I wouldn't hire these people either, simply because they didn't have the language skills (They couldn't speak english properly) or otherwise they weren't skilled enough. A lot of Australian companies demand the best of the best, and if the immigrants don't measure up in an IT sense, then maybe the immigrants should have done their homework a bit more before leaving their original country. People who are coming out of University don't seem to have all the skills either, now maybe it's just that I am picky, or maybe the universities aren't teaching what's required, either way, experience still counts for something in my book, and I find that these people who are going for jobs, don't have it or the equivalent level of knowledge.
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
The is the standard 'divide and conquer' bullshit that our so-called 'leaders' turn to when their policies are becoming too much for the population to handle and they need to divert our attention.
... people ... already in the country.
Immigrants aren't the problem. They are people, just like all the other
For Australians worried about their pay and working conditions, the real problem is the current government and their buddies in big business that have rammed their Industrial Relations changes through the senate. Australian Workplace Agreements ( AWAs ) guarantee lower wages for ALL, by giving us the 'choice' of bargaining away working conditions that have been won over decades of hard struggle. Of course the government argues that we are only being given the 'choice' to throw away conditions previously guaranteed by law, but in reality, the choice is not ours, but the employer's. This is particularly the case since our right to collectively bargain has been removed. Without the ability to collectively bargain, how can we expect to get anywhere, or even maintain our current position? Instead of standing together to fight for our rights, we will be competing with each other for a job.
THIS point - that we are now competing with each other for a job - is what is so fucking hypocritical about the claims in the Age's article - because they are in fact true of ALL workers, and not only a problem caused by immigrant workers. Where was The Age when the federal government and Business Council of Australia were pushing for their IR changes? They were the fucking cheer-leaders! They were berating unionised workers and telling their readers that workers should 'get with the program' and 'get over' unions, which were a thing of the past. They were telling us that we shouldn't worry about being thrown into the deep-end of the job market with no safety-net, because the wonders of the free market would provide for all!
And now The Age play on this fear of competition for jobs leading to decreased wages because it fits their agenda of whipping up racist sentiment, such as the horrible abberation that we had at Cronulla just a couple of weeks ago. Make no mistake: The Age doesn't give a flying fuck about the wages of workers. They are more interested in the bigger-picture issues such as invading other countries to steal their natural resources, privitise their assets and plant the neo-conservative flag in the soil. To achieve this, though, they need to turn Australians against foreigners, and turn worker against immigrant worker.
It's an extreme example, but we used to have laws that made it illegal for black people to learn to read. Why? God forbid a black person should achieve the same ability to do a job as a white person.
We can't (ethically) prevent other people on this planet from educating themselves. We shouldn't (economically) prevent them from doing so either - a world with 50 million educated engineers is better than a world with 50 million people who can't read.
Australians (and Americans) don't lose jobs to immigrants because of migration. They lose jobs to them because the other person is better at doing the job, despite the inherent advantages they have in language and culture.
I work with immigrant engineering workers on a regular basis. These guys wern't born in the US, their families didn't speak english natively, they didn't grow up in this country - if these guys can do a job in a foriegn (to them) language, in a foreign culture, and to it better than a native.... whose fault is that? Getting (and keeping) a job is a competitive effort. I'd much rather see someone lose because the other person is better at the job than see someone lose because they were born in the wrong spot or have the wrong skin color.
And, at least in America, immigration is GOOD. Immigration lets us get young people to help fix our demographics problem. The best way to pay for all these damned baby boomers is to let a whole bunch of 20-something, educated immigrants into the country to pay taxes to support them (instead of letting them work in India where we don't get the money for our social system.)
paintball
It seems pretty straightforward to me.
All systems that encourage skilled people who would tend to be a net gain to the local economy and culture to come and STAY are good.
All systems that encourage skilled or semi skilled people who tend to be a net loss to the local economy to come, work cheap, send money back home, and LEAVE are bad.
I want them to come but I dont want them to go back. I think thats shortsighted, pumping money and talent out of the {local|city|state|national} economy and diluting it over the global one.
Instead of yammering that you'll have lesser wages look at the big picture. Globalization is profitable for some, so you need to find ways on how to take the money from that crowd. Don't look at the old ways of making an honest earning, take the friggen money from those who have it!
My companny recently outsourced their IT to Australia.
Its very hypocritical for Aussies, of all the people, to crib and cry about immigration.
1) They themselves are a nation of racist immigrants, who stole the land of the natives, and then prevented any one who wasnt white from entering it till 1960's
2) They themselves form the largest section of illegal immigrant population in Britain. Since the stereotype of an illegal immigrant in UK is that of a east european, kurdish, black or south asian, the vast number of aussies overstaying or working illegally are simply overlooked by the immigration authorities in the UK.
3) Australia as a country is underpopulated, and needs immigrants in order to grow. outside Australia, it is Aussie government which is poaching and trying to attract talent to Australia!
...leaving their home country less developed.
Don't tell me that they send a lot of their money home...they take away a lot of the (usually, state sponsored University) degrees and qualification which could be used to develop their country's talent and cultural pool.
The Age, in between the changing of sourcing of IT professionals from around the globe, and the rise of sites like Seek, etc, has a lot to be bitter about. I remember 2000-2001, and getting the IT Age. There'd be a dozen+ pages of edge-to-edge IT employment ads. Now there's a 1/3 of a page for anything other than 'exec' positions (truly exec, like '$100M manufacturing plant seeks new CTO/CIO').
Somebody's got to replace all those Aussies who've moved to Earls court.
In terms of Australian IT workers, just what fraction of said workforce is, or ever has been unionised? I know in my ten years and numerous companies I've worked for, I've never been approached to join one.
You should probably put contact information here, I know a few people in sydney that match your criteria and are looking for work (myself included). Slashdot seems like a great place to find someone who is really interested in the field, take advantage of it.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
In both cases the people doing the complaining are themselves almost all immigrants, they just got there a bit earlier.
Well, actually yes.
I was out of work during the recent downturn only to find that when I returned to work to find a number of memo asking. A significant number of programmers on the floor were Indian when the market was "flat". At the time 33,000 contractors were out of work. A senior manager at one Investment bank told me that if the most they would pay for contractors is £350 a day, otherwise they would just get in an Indian. £350 and day might sound a lot, but its not if you have 15 years experience (what would a top lawyer with 15 years experience get?), and that figure will only go down. A recent article in the Telegraph (which I have not been able to find) reported that suppliers and others were importing developers and putting them up in hostels.
I have a theory. The government (in the UK) is allowing the system to be abused because many government IT projects use the same body shops that "offshoring onshore". The same is true about teachers, nurses, doctors and dentists. The government finds it easy to import that spend money training it own people.
What's the result? Eventually the bulk of work will be low paid (e.g. nursing, teaching). People aren't stupid. It not surprising that IT enrolments at universities has plummeted.
Those who think that the market always works in their favour are ideological fools.
Ooh I'd love an IT job in Australia, preferably Perth. Any takers!?
Like every other profession I, the worker, am going to be hurt by having competition in the field of employment. However the competition is benificial to others not in that same field.
For example as a person who will probably need medical care sometime in my life I want all the people in the world working on possible medical improvements. It does not matter to me where in the world a new medical process or chemical comes from I as a paying consumer will have access to it and benfit from it. For the people working in the field of medical research the worldwide competition does effect them and they would prefer it did not exist.
People always seem to think it's great that they can buy cheap, high quality goods from other countries.
But as soon as the inhabitants of these countries attempt to compete in the local market place they start crying about how it's not fair, that wages are getting lowered and they can't compete.
Tough. It's a global economy. If someone else can do your job for less you're left with two choices - either offer a better quality product or lower your prices to match.
That's life in the capitalist world.
My partner works at a government department where they no longer have the APS5 pay range, everyone goes from APS4 straight to APS6 to try to encourage people to stay. Two of my good friends work for a particular company that outsources to the government (think "massive Customs IT problems" and you have the company) and they are begging and crying for staff. This article screams of a slow news day.
I wish all the best to the Australian IT specialists, in their fight against foreign IT specialists. In fact, I think Australian immigration law should be changed so that foreign IT specialists are no longer in the "for naturalisation" section (along with nurses/scientists/engineers). Eastern Europe/Russia/India have a lot to gain from their best specialists NOT going to Australia, but rather stay home and raise their home industry standards and wages.. a very slow, tedious and painfull process, that most good specialists choose not to be part of. Fortunately - there are plenty of US companies outsourcing software dev. to India (as opposed to having Indian programmers on yearly "bussiness trips" to the US to circumvent anti-immigration/foreign employment laws). Its good to see Australia beginning to move in the same direction. Fenck you!
"A large number of foreigners working for $2/hr would move here where they can make $20/hr. I'd sure as hell rather compete locally where all workers are under similar laws"
It does not occur to you that the foriegn workers would accept less than $20/hr, which would drive down your salary - even if you still had a job. Laws? Don't make me laugh. I am in the UK where there are many complex employment laws in the book, but there are large numbers of foreign workers eg in the building, farming, cleaning and catering industries who, officially, do not even exist. These workers are picked up from hostels by employers in unmarked white vans every morning and dropped back cash-in-hand at night. No tax is paid, no minimum wage observed. The government knows it goes on but turns a blind eye because they think it's "good for the economy" : meaning the bosses like it.
... perhaps they should think about how many Australians get imported to countries like the UK lowering wages for us! It's all relative, so just shut up whining - jesus, they call us whinging poms and i'm constantly hearing Australians whine about everything.
Perth has a restaurant named "Eminem". (No, seriously). Is there anything else you need to turn you off the idea of Perth, or do you need some pictures of the land whales that pass for womyn here?
if we really believe in market forces and free trade, then we should not worry about skill workers getting into the country, it's part of the market. So, if a company finds that using a foreign worker is better to its performance so be it. This philosophy is the one applied in the EU, where any EU citizen can work in any country without any legal permission.
I immigrated to Australia specifically for an IT job. I am the most qualified person in the world for my job, which is why I was hired. I did not take anyone's job away from them. and it was already too difficult to get a visa.
The place I work at is expanding and we are having a difficult time finding qualified engineers.
dumbshits
Immigrants aren't the problem. They are people, just like all the other ... people ... already in the country.
What planet are you from? Ever seen a queue of immigrants applying for visas or assylum?
About 90% are men in the 18-30 age group. They are adventurers - wanting to "see the world"; wanting to leave debts, feuds, wives or pregnant girlfriends behind; or wanting to set up in crime in new territory; they may have been told by their families to send back money. The other 10 % might be young women or sometimes a family. The young women are likely to be headed for the "adult entertainment industry" for which they prefer a location well away from their homes and families.
Ever wondered why the young women have become so outnumbered by young men in western society? And what you do not see is older people, the grannies and aunts who in a stable society would act as the moderating influences. These migrants are people who would exist in any society, but they are not an average cross section of it.
You think these migrations are a social good?
The 'bad' graduates started degrees during the last bubble only because "it was where the money was" now have jobs in established companies. These 'bad' are more often than not propped up by the 'good' due to poor human resources. (In this country we have a history of disregarding 'boffins' so often technical staff end up progressing to management without any formal training - this is slowly changing but is still an entrenched culture.) Anyway, all the big multinational outsourcing companies (CSC, EDS, ...) are full of dead-weight and renowned for running over budget which is probably a larger contributor to lower wages than "Cheap International Labor."
Given the number of graduates available, theres no reason to pay $60k for a good programmer when you can hire two Uni graduates that are top of their class for $30. While we have this surplus, I don't see the market getting much better.
A year 10 drop-out here can go on and become an electrician to earn $70k in 3 years. Thats by the time a Computer Science student is in first year University and owes money.
I've loved computers since a kid and have been programming since I was a child but I am now contemplating a major career move purely on financial grounds.
When I came out of school in 1981, employers were all screaming about the need for programmers that could talk to the users. They didn't want dungeon coders who had the personality skills of a serial killer. They wanted people who could wear ties and talk about cash flow. They wanted coders who "understand the business". As one boss told me "I want people I can take to a meeting".
Hell, now they hire guys who can't speak understandable English. And they don't care. Shoot, lock them in the basement and make them code. Who cares if they "know the business"? Just work cheap.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Nice to see your racist colours shining through.
To my Australian compatriates, I say, get the hell out of town and live a little .. your lifestyle is the problem. The world needs you to leave.
Huh ? One of the big problems in Australia is there are _too many_ skilled people leaving the country because the wages are relatively low and taxation is relatively high.
(: soapbox start :)
:)
Pragmatically, highly skilled AND communicative people generally are a benefit to companies and society alike. Whether or not they immigrated is irrelevant.
If a company wishes to replace skilled (and more expensive) folks with less expensive and less-skilled folks, said company has the right to shoot itself in its corporate foot if it wishes. Again, whether or not the hiree is an immigrant is irrelevant.
Immigrated IT workers do not equate to less-qualified or less-excellent workers. Folks are skilled and effective, or they are not - irregardless of their nationality or immigration/emigration status.
On the human side, it is natural for local workers to worry about being replaced by less-expensive and/or less experienced workers. Wanting to protect one's job is natural and reasonable. However, pointing fingers at anyone other than the collective mind (of themselves and their company) is counter-productive. It is a cooperative situation that is best resolved by: working hard; expressing interest in improving (and an interest in being a part of) the hiring process; and ceasing the entitlement frame of mind.
Help the company do better - it will help you most of the time. If it does not, you are better off working with a different company.
(: soapbox end
A Passionate Independent Musician
The IT industry sucks. IT jockeys will have to make do with living on Ramen noodles, and driving beaters.
Oh, and for those talking about doing it for the 'love of IT' or some such shit. Love doesn't pay the bills unless your a whore.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I'm an American who set up an offshore unit for my former employer. I can tell you this:
1. Not all IT workers from developed nations are skilled.
2. Not all IT workers from underdeveloped nations are unskilled.
3. Skilled IT workers are worth their weight in gold, regardless of origin.
The only IT workers that need fear losing their jobs are the unskilled; and rightfully so, as they don't really belong in our industry anyway.
No matter what Bill Gates says about needing more American (or Australian) IT talent, they'll always take the lowest bidder that will work the longest hours.
If you're in college, switch majors, unless you're really passionate.
If you're in IT, bone up such that you give the best unique combination of skills. Otherwise get out and find something else to put three squares on the table.
Would programmers in the developed world be better off without immigration...
In the narrow egoistic sense we're all better off hoarding and protecting everything, including jobs. In the broad spiritual sense we're all better off sharing.
It just depends on whether we really care about the well-being of others.
Nice to see your racist colours shining through.
dude, i'm white, i can talk about whitey all i like. far as i'm concerned, fat lazy white bastards are ruining the country with their homogeneity and their cultural bias against anything they can't see on TV. yes, i truly believe this, no, i'm not a racist: white is a state of mind. black too, yo!
Huh ? One of the big problems in Australia is there are _too many_ skilled people leaving the country because the wages are relatively low and taxation is relatively high.
one of the big problems in Australia is laziness and consumption. consumerism blows! go do some real work, i say, and yeah
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Band together and create your own companies. Don't outsource, don't hire H1b visa workers, keep it . Kick the ass of the companies that outsource, and use their outsourcing/H1b hires as your best asset. You know they are lower quality workers, and you must make sure the public realizes this also.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
The timed skills test will weed out the unskilled, but it will also weed out some tremendously talented people who might not currently have what you need but could pick it up in a matter of months, weeks, or even days.
If your search is for long-term employees, are those really people you want to eliminate from consideration?
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
I cannot agree more with the parent. Now, arguing from a standpoint of pure selfishness, we really ought to attract as many of these foreign workers as we can to the west. Why? It prevents those countries from *Ever* developing a technological edge against us.
Think about it. No skilled workers == no tech industry. This isn't bad for the people who are migrating. They will work for us, boosting our economy, and in return they get nice houses, 2.3 kids, a picket fence and a California-built Toyota. So what's the problem? The only concern I are our own kids, who might get the idea that they have to compete with foreign kids who are smarter than they are (which is complete BS btw).
Yea. It's pretty ruthless (and maybe I'm just really cynical =P). But those people wanted to come here anyway right?
I'm bored, lets go break something.
Say there's a world where each person is paid the same amount to make one decision a day.
Then some wise guy comes and asks to be paid 1.5x for making 2 decisions a day. Then someone else undercuts him, and so on.
The end result of this is that most people will be at a certain level of suffering. You could say it's all relative, but I disagree in the same way that going hungry is not the same being slightly less well fed.
What is the optimal solution to this? Perhaps a socialist state where the basic needs are met and the pay is just for wants? Would it be efficient enough? Is there enough to go around, or must some people inevitably starve?
Anyway, in my opinion Governments should be responsible for slowing inevitable change down so that their citizens can adjust. But not all change is necessarily inevitable or good.
"Australian IT workers concerned about migrants" Yeah, who isnt. If you have a boom in labor demand that is impossable for the local population to fill, immigration might make sense. In todays world, in developed countries, that just isnt the case. If it were different in Australia, then IT workers wages would not be going down, they would be going up in spite of immigration. If misory enjoys company, Australia, you have plenty of it. Heard last year that there were loads of Chinese in Europe taking all kinds of jobs away, particularly the menial kind. And then, lol though not funny, there has been the constant complaint about those Polish plumbers in Germany and France.
In other news - In India it is being asserted that India's intake of soda operations from Coke/Pepsi is taking jobs and lowering wages for Indian citizens. It appears that in all countries, not just India, the case that Coke/Pepsi are lowering wages for Soda operations workers is being made. Would workers in the developing world be better off without globalization that favors established MNCs or is there an overall benefit for the industry with large scale operations going to the developing world and thus making the industry larger?"
- See how your 401(k) is doing with those Pepsi/Coke shares. I am sure you will modify your portfolio if their valuation slides.
with degrees in french poetry
no one needs to get paid to understand that
meanwhile, there are kids still in high school/ college making hundreds of thousands because they wrote a killer app everyone wants
the difference? supply and demand
you will get paid what the market needs, and if there is another company competing for your skills, they will try to steal you by paying you more, or you can go off on your own and start your own damn company if your skills are so hot
if no one needs your skills, your existing employer will fire you or pay you less
is that right? is that wrong? it doesn't matter, it just IS, there's no way around it, nor should you even try to understand a way around it, if you understand how the economy works, ther is no superior way of alloting pay for performance
your example of a company paying people less money to do the same job doesn't have any meaning: either you have marketable skills, and you are well paid, or you don't. if you pay some guy $10 in india for what you did for $100: the rules of supply and demand still hold: you got paid $100 because less and less kids in the west major in computers. but meanwhile, thousands of indians with your skills, and no need to deal with the american real estate market, can do what you do for less $. so the company does the OBVIOUS INESCAPABLE thing.
this is a constant rule of life: supply, and demand
try to understand it
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Formerly imperial countries like UK, France, Spain & Germany left colonies with good education in the imperial language. These are reservoirs of low-cost labor. There's a huge supply of English speaking colonnials.
In case you are wondering about the obscure 'H5N1' reference, it is the name assigned to the virus being used to perpetuate the 'bird flu' scam.
Hi All,
Before I start, let me say I am an Australian It worker and have worked with a number of these 'imports'
For the vast majority they are highly skilled and have a great work ethic, but gee they get paid crap money. The ones i work with are contracted in at the same hourly/daily rate as me. So they are being exploited by the 'agency' that put them in taking a huge cut of the fee.
Flame away
I would tend to agree with you, except for your specific example. About 2 years ago, I bought 5 pair of Walmart's carpenter jeans and they have managed to last longer than any other jeans i've ever had... well, except for that one pair that did sort of disintegrate.
"Of course they're saving money! Right now they're paying them 50% of what they pay others, so obviously they're saving money! (/sarcasm) This is the same kind of thinking that makes people think it's a good idea to shop at Wal-Mart: Sure, those jeans are $5 less than they are anywhere else, but they last half as long. So you end up with a worse value over the life of the product, but it's cheaper NOW, so obviously it's better."
Assuming that an immigrant can't do the same job as a native worker shows predjudice. This is what you've implied with the WalMart analogy.
Vote for Pedro
As an A/P in Melbourne, I agree with the comments that most companies only care about the bottom line and not about the quality of the work that they are doing. But the idea that immigrants are taking jobs from aussies or lowering wages I think is preposterous. And even if it is true, should we be really blaming the immigrants? Why is there never a story about companies employing inexperienced immigrants or foreign workers producing substandard products where the focus is on the company doing the wrong thing? Sure.... socially irresponsible companies aren't our problem its the immigrants.
Point 2...
We are IT people aren't we? Isn't it part of our job to keep up with new technologies, continually learn new technical skills(and this doesn't necessarily mean getting a new degree) so we can move into different areas of the IT industry when we want to? Like it or not (And I don't but there's reality to consider) we will have to compete with people from around the world for jobs and the competition is only going to get fiercer.
Having generally failed to stand up to the argument that an immigrant "takes away" an entrenched worker's job only because of the better value (i.e optimal on a quality-price curve), many shrewd (but incompetent at IT) bastards are beginning to make the argument that "migrant" workers are bad for the US (or oz) 'coz they shunt out most of their earned money to home countries while simultaneously using the host country's resources. This is blatant bullshit.
"Migrant" workers in IT pay all the taxes that the "native" does and spends on the same freaking things -- rent, mortgage, vehicles, holidays etc. If anything, he/she purchases a boatload of native goods to ship off to his home country as gifts. These days the IT "migrant" families fly in for extended visits and guess where they spend a shitload of money?
Last -- this clever shift from foreign to "migrant" is a subtle shift in trying to paint the IT guys with the same brush as "illegal". It's all in the perception that a word creates.
But not to worry. Don't be surprised when the "migrant" IT guys stop coming here. But that's when you guys will begin to really get reamed.
Third world and First world nations will never 'level out,' because Third worlders do not have the genetic background to achieve what has been achieved by IQ-advanced races.
Now, if you can accomplish some sort of global genetic engineering to turn everyone White, Jewish, or Chinese, then you might have something.
why are you posting anonymously?
are you ashamed of the way you think?
the term "anonymous coward" never rang more true
come on racist, show yourself
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
you should be allowed to compete for your job at the lower salary rate with the other indians there
yes, i read here on slashdot about the stunt where the guy moved to india to try to get his job back
well, he should have gotten his job back if he was qualified
i think that clears up your problem, no?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
you really think that? you whiny spoiled sense-of-priveledge rich westerner
the system is heavily stacked in YOUR favor moron: you're rich!
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Population around 20M in 2003.
Less than a tenth of the US population. /. ate my numbers, for some reason. Now if only it would eat my quite incorrect 250,000 in the above post, :-). Either way, though, the point is there. Less volume to absorb strain.
I'm trying to avoid identifying my workplace, as I'm not sure what policies apply in that regard here. However, you can email me on a private address -- nigel@webcoder.com.au -- and I'll point you in the right direction.
If I had stolen someone's job, I'd have bloody well hired him by now, damn it. The fact is, I can't beg borrow or steal people to do the work I do, here. When someone with apropriate experience comes into town, we game companies descend on him like sharks in a feeding frenzy. If you're the little shark, you have a hell of a hard time gettng any of the food.
There are a lot of students training up in the field, but they don't do you much good when you need someone with more experience than they have. We're more than happy to help the new kids learn, but if we don't have experienced people, there's nobody to teach them.
So honestly, I don't want to hear any whinging, until I've got qualified people banging on my door.
only in america, erh, australia! Oh well, now you know how we felt!
Ayyy, Mates, the land o' the 'roos is NOT a good place to go for a couple of verrry good reasons. First, the people there discriminate by age. I mean the immigration (or 'migration') folks there carry little tools like the tire dealers do here in the United States. They dip this tool into ya most tender groove to see how much tread you have left, see. Here's how it works, basically there is a 'point system' that favors the young over all else. You have to have over 100 to 120 'points' to qualify for any kind of migration. You get a minor amount of points for speaking the dominant language, English. You get a couple of nickels and dimes of points for having a good education. That is about 10 points for a doctor's degree and about 5 to ten for speaking English. You get a bonus of up to 15 points for having a vocation deemed 'in demand' at the time. That vocation can be anything from an engineer to prostitute, but usually engineers and medical doctors get the points above 10. Now add that up and whadddya get......less than fifty points, Mate. The rest ya hafta get by being young and hung! Again I restate my first premise about used tires. Tire dealers in this country, the USA, always use this tread depth tool to check failed tires of traded in tires for 'miles left'. The Aussie 'migration' folks do the same. Basically, if you are over forty years old, you have no 'tread' left according to Aussie migration. If you are over forty five you are hopeless. It does'nt get any better for people retiring. Here the bar is wealth. Want to retire in Aussie land, be prepared to put up over half a million dollars Australian, probably in some kind of bond that only pays interest to the Aussie government. What American worker past sixty has that kind of money to throw away on a place where he can have his life snuffed out in a heart beat by stepping on a spider in his front lawn if he were to move to a nice warm tropical place like Darwin and all he or she wanted was a little peace and quiet? Many older folks 'over the hill' would like to live there, maybe, if they could live there on their US social security checks; but they do not want us. What jobs they do have will disappear in the near future anyway. With little industry and so close to the center of large concentrations of cheap slave labor in sweatshop factories in nearby surplus population countries like Indonesia and China, there is little incentive in the light of various 'free trade' agreements to locate factory productionk, NEW factory production, in Australia unless the Aussies would accept a far lower standard of living. Such is the deal that moneyed interests have made with their bought an paid for politicos in many countries including Australia. A country has to MAKE things in it in order to really prosper. Foreign goods or domestic goods produced in foreign owned local factories just transfer money out of the country. Service jobs just spread what little wealth remains around but creates no new capital. Australia is on a fast track to impoverishment and stagnation because of the WTO. It will remain so until and unless its population wakes up, which given the media penetraion by international monopoly interests and the general apathy of that population is not bloody likely. It wants or claims it wants educated professionals with experience, but curiousely rejects the most likely candidates by stupidly claiming they are too old. They do not realize that many professionals live into their eighties while still maintaining productive lives. A forty year old, even a sixty year old in good health may have up to 30 to forty years of productivity left. But no, the Aussies cling to that used tire gauge. Meanwhile they have large empty country with a slow growing population of non-indigenous non-asians. The country is also relatively rich in resources like coal and oil. And maybe uranium. It is militarily weak with a strident pacificist political philosophy that permeates it political system like putrescense to its very core. Any movement to st
IN Australia, Europe or the US, look how cheap they work when they're back in India/China/Romania. I'd rather have an immigrant working and paying payroll taxes in my country than one taking the job completely out of the country any day. At least if he's working HERE the government will have that much more money to pay my unemployment check. :)
We are the 198 proof..
My suggestion for any company wanting to cut overheads is to open a subsidiary in India for the following divisions:
CEO & senior Management
Accounting
Marketing
HR
Won't happen though. I wonder why?
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
Most(yes most) immigrants go to developed in search of better quality of life. To achieve this they learn the required skills. They are forced to upgrade to stay put in a competative environment, so that they can earn consistantly & lead a normal life. They will not complain if the water is shut of for a day, because they have been thru even worse situations for months in their home countries. They understang what 'shortage' of resources mean & make better use of it, than people in developed countries who think it is birth right to use (example) paper indiscriminately. These immigrants are intelligent, but only not exposed to foundations of science. If they are ,they as well mini-einsteins/Gates-in-making. If they are left in their own countries, they become fodder for/osama-in-making. It is now that developed countries are feeling the 'heat' of competations, because they had never opened up for sizable immigration. You want cheap products manufactored in other countries, why not cheap labour?, even if it is not the case. Science has gone ahead to prove that there are 4 blood types, but we still count by 3 colors. Open up & let the whole planet be one country with the best surviving.
We're not highly unionised, no. I know of 1 particular workplace that IS highly unionised, but they'd be the odd ones out.
...
IT workers certainly aren't conscious of being a part of the working class. They make the common mistake of considering themselves to be somehow above the working class, probably due to their income. My income, for example, is quite good. My working conditions are even better - I have a very supportive employer, and upper management even look kindly upon my activism, for example in the antiwar movement. In my current position, therefore, I don't see how a union would directly benefit me. HOWEVER, I realise that I may not be in my current position forever. I may not even be in the IT industry. My relationship to the union and other IT workers, and all workers in general, is one of solidarity. I stand alongside them in their struggles for better conditions, and in particular in defense of the new IR laws which come into effect in July.
This stance - of solidarity instead of just self-interest - is the stance that IT workers haven't yet taken on, hence the terribly poor union membership. Of course, there are other reasons why people have abandoned the unions or not turned to unions in the 1st place. I certainly have no illusions about them being a particularly progressive force. Their support of the Australian Labor party despite decades of 'economic rationalism' under Hawke & Keating is enough to send people away in droves
The last comment is about you 'never been approached to join' a union. In places like IT call centres, I can imagine a union representative turning up and making a sales pitch. In other areas - for example in our company where there are only 2 IT workers - it simply is not feasible for union reps to tour every single company looking for members. The IR laws also further hinder union access to workplaces, making the likihood of you being approached even less. This doesn't, however, preclude you from approaching them . As the Howard government and successive Labor governments increase the attacks on our 'way of life', I expect more people will be forced to take a more militant stance and actively seek out their union in seach of a method of defense.
Once they come here and earn enough money they can help their family and friends that weren't able to come here so we aren't supporting the whole world. It doesn't hurt us much for them to come and earn money where as it does hurt us to just be giving money away. Foreigners that come here and earn money are also coming here and becoming consumers so they are in fact creating new jobs even as they fill jobs. All in all open immigration is good for our countries. In the US anyway we have plenty of room. I've lived on both coasts, in the midwest, and in general all over the US. There is a lot of open space and resources just going to waste.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.