4th BC Century Defensive Wall Unearthed

An anonymous reader writes "Yahoo News is reporting that Greek archaeologists have discovered a 2,600 meter defensive wall whose design was 'inspired by Alexander the Great.' In addition to the wall itself 4th-century BC bronze coins were also found inside the structure. From the article: 'The discovery was made in the archaeological site of Dion, an ancient fortified city and key religious sanctuary of the Macedonian civilization, which ruled much of Greece until Roman times.'"

Comments

Strange wall design puzzles archaeologists

[Yahweh Doesn't Exist]

the wall seems to head in a straight line towards a neighbouring enemy city. periodically there are areas where sand seems to be turned to glass by large electric discharges. documents from the area refer to multiple "hands of Zeus", "wall whoring" and "gay lamer noob faggots".

News for Nerds?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this wall protect against trojans? Did they close any unnecessary services and make sure it was well patched at all times? What was it protecting, an abacus? So many questions...

Re:News for Nerds?

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Does this wall protect against trojans? Did they close any unnecessary services and make sure it was well patched at all times? What was it protecting, an abacus? So many questions...

Nah, reread the blurb, it says it was to protect Celine Dion.

Re:News for Nerds?

[bhiestand]

Why does Intellegent Design always make me think of Military Intellegence?

Because you're too smart to understand the former yet too stupid to understand the latter.

Re:News for Nerds?

[LiquidCoooled]

I think you mistranslated it,

It was there to protect us from Celine Dion.

Re:News for Nerds?

[Bloke down the pub]

Beware of geeks bare in gifs.

Re:News for Nerds?

[nwbvt]

On a more serious note,

Would it be possible to create a new 'history' topic to post stuff like this under? I mean currently its listed under 'Science', and I don't think the Einstein picture is really relevant. I'm not saying it isn't interesting, just that it can be classified better.

Re:News for Nerds?

[Errandboy of Doom]

As it turns out, the wall was built by Cisco, allegedly for the "protection" of the citizens within, though some historians suspect more sinister motives.

"Macedonian civilization"

[Anonymous Coward]

Ancient Macedonia was a Greek state, not a civilization independant from the rest of Greece.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[luvirini]

To nitpick: Macedonians wanted to be Greeks, but "True Greeks" looked down on them as barbarians.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[CRCulver]

I knew it was only a matter of time until someone came with the Greek nationalist view. Too bad that no one outside of Greece cares. Yes, Alexander and his father spoke Greek, but the simple fact of the matter is that only the upper crust of Macedonia was educated in the Greek language. The peons spoke only their local vernacular, an Indo-European language too far removed from Greek for mutual intelligibility. Archaeological evidence shows that Macedonia had its own pottery and jewelry traditions which were different than those of Greece, so the culture was not Greek. Saying that Macedonia was a part of the Greek nation is like calling present-day India part of England just because the upper classes there speak English.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[P0ldy]

It's true--Macedonia was a city state. However, from an Athenian's perspective, the Macedonians certainly were *another* people because they considered them barbarians (hence I leave out the term "civilisation"). Of course, Aristotle himself was born in Macedonia, and Alexander would go on to conquer them. Probably as much jealousy and ill-will in the Athenian sentiment as there is truth to it.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[Dot.Com.CEO]

It's more like calling Scotland a part of the United Kingdom but whatever. Macedonians were dubbed "barbarians" by their enemies (that included the weakened Athenians) since it was an insult. Not because it was true.

Regarding the language, you must be talking of Ilyrians or Thracians.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[Mistshadow2k4]

That's not a good reason to leave out the term civilization. The ancient Greeks called any people who didn't have Greek culture barbarians unless they were obviously even more sophisticated in many ways, such as the ancient Egyptians.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[hounddog32]

I think more like the Welsh with their unintelligable language...

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[Potor]

the word barbarian comes from the ancient greek word for, more or less, "one who sounds like a sheep" - barbaros. the greeks found the tongue of their neighbours, e.g., the macedonians, to sound like sheep ba-ba-ing.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[master_p]

Totally wrong, and there is no such thing as a "Greek nationlist view". All of Greece's areas had their own pottery, language, etc until, at a specific point in time, they were all Greeks. Let me remind you 'Grammiki A' and 'Grammiki B' (Linear A and B), two forms of written language in the Southern part of Greece that bears no resemblance to later Greek language. The Minoan civilisation, that no one disagrees that was Greek, was totally different than Greece as we later know it. The same goes for "Macedonia": they had their own language, culture etc, until that was lost and all there was was Greek. Actually Greeks came from 4 'races': Ionians, Minoans, Dorieus, and Achaians. Dorieus was the one that come from the north, but then it was melted into the greater Greek culture, just like the others. The time that Dorieus came from the north was about 3000-2000 years before Christ.

So there is nothing to justify a separate state of 'Macedonia'. There is nothing in Skopjia that has even the remote connection with anything of that time. All the people in Skopjia talk some form of 90% Slavic and 10% Latin language, with absolutely no relation to the native languages of 5000 years ago. For more than 3000 years, 'Macedonia' and everything related was Greek. 'Makedon' means 'long and tall man'; 'Alexander' means 'alex' + 'andras', i.e. man with great presence; 'Phillip' is 'philos' + 'ippos', i.e. friend of horse etc.

The first time in modern era that someone spoke of Skopjia/Vardaska as 'Macedonia' was Tito, the communist leader of Yugoslavia. That was in the 40s. The reason that move was made was because Tito wanted Yugoslavia to have access to the Mediterranean sea sometime in the future, when the Communist Empire was to grow. By claiming the southern part of Yugoslavia to be the same in culture with northern Greece, he paved the way for expansion in the Agean sea.

Nowadays everyone part has its own reason to support "Macedonia":

1) the locals in Skopija upgrade themselves by stealing a culture from their neighbours, with great benefit for their tourism and economy.

2) USA wants to split the Balkans in many small countries, too weak to produce of anything useful, too depentent on USA. Yugoslavia was the last truly indepentent state in Europe with its own production of cars, tanks, food, etc, second in world-wide production of soya beans! They had to destroy it, and also cause problems in Europe, get rid of their weapons stock, try new technology, and see how the rest of the world reacts. The road to the Great Albania is paved. What poor "macedonians" do not know yet is that their country is about to be separated in parts in the next 10 years: one part goes to Albania, one part goes to Kossovo (independent state, with UN forces to establish peace), and one part to "Macedonians".

3) Germany wants "Macedonia" because they have agreed to create a massive nuclear waste dump.

4) "Macedonia" contains the largest natural source of a specific metal alloy (rare elsewhere) needed for many high tech stuff produced in the west.

5) "Macedonia" is the easiest way to smuggle guns, drugs and women in and out of EU. There is absolutely no control over what goes in/out, since there is not much of a government anyway, which is ideal for operations by federal agencies, drug barons, muslim terrorist groups that want to push their "agents" into EU, etc.

So it is just in everybody's favor to recognize Macedonia as an independent state, and of course, as usual it is these days, there is massive brainwashing from the media. Who cares that a bunch of people loose their identity, right? as long as our economy is great, who gives a FLYING FUCK? but it is attitudes like this that makes us look bad to the rest of the world; it is attitudes like this that may cause the next great world war!

And of course this will be modded as a troll/flamebait/whatever, just because the mods do not agree with this view! if that is not fascist, I do not know what it is. At least if you mod me 'flamebait', mod me with a 5, so everybody can read this and judge for themselves...

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[Guido von Guido]

Let me remind you 'Grammiki A' and 'Grammiki B' (Linear A and B), two forms of written language in the Southern part of Greece that bears no resemblance to later Greek language. Uh, Linear B was in fact Greek. Linear A, on the other hand, has never been deciphered (and is presumed to be an unknown language).

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[asdfgl]

Let me remind you 'Grammiki A' and 'Grammiki B' (Linear A and B), two forms of written language in the Southern part of Greece that bears no resemblance to later Greek language. The Minoan civilisation, that no one disagrees that was Greek, was totally different than Greece as we later know it.

Linear A and B are used for writing different languages. Linear A, the older of them is in a undeciphered language which is clearly not related to Greek or any other indo-european language. Linear B has clearly been shown to be Greek by Michael Ventris et al. Therefore we can assert that at least the minoan elite spoke Greek.

The first time in modern era that someone spoke of Skopjia/Vardaska as 'Macedonia' was Tito, the communist leader of Yugoslavia. That was in the 40s. The reason that move was made was because Tito wanted Yugoslavia to have access to the Mediterranean sea sometime in the future, when the Communist Empire was to grow.

Tito had no need to make such dubious claim on greek territory as Yugoslavia was never landlocked. I won't refute the possibility that he had other motives, but access to the Mediterranian wasn't one of them.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[rubycodez]

oh I see, like the way true computer geeks running an actual Operating System look down on wannabees running Windows

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[Guido von Guido]

Linear A and B are used for writing different languages. Linear A, the older of them is in a undeciphered language which is clearly not related to Greek or any other indo-european language. Linear B has clearly been shown to be Greek by Michael Ventris et al. Therefore we can assert that at least the minoan elite spoke Greek.

Linear A doesn't appear until after the apparent collapse of Minoan civiliation (see the Wikipedia article, which seems to be pretty good. Conquest by Greek speakers is consistent with the evidence.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[kitzilla]

> (and is presumed to be an unknown language).

Well, that's a safe presumption, don't you think?

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[Guido von Guido]

Well, yes, I could have been clearer. According to what I've read, the Minoan language (the one written in Linear A, anyway) is most likely unknown in the sense that it's probably not related to any living language family. It's been suggested that it's related to Etruscan, which nobody understands either.

This is opposed to the possibility that Minoan is either some language we already know or related to a known language. For instance, people have proposed that Minoan is (very) archaic Greek or Phoenician, but none of these ideas seemed to have gotten much traction.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[Arker]

Actually, several classical sources mention that Macedonians did not, typically, understand Greek. Sure, the upper crust did - it was the language of culture commerce and art. But the rank and file Macedonians, such as those that made up Alexanders personal bodyguard unit, required translators.

There isn't enough of the Macedonian language preserved in extant sources to say for sure what sort of language it was, but it clearly was not Greek, whatever else may or may not have been true of it. And no classical author considered Macedonians to be Greek - while many explicitly classified them as barbarians.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[Compenguin]

Actually Macedonian and Greek were mutually intelligible (but had numerous differences). The Persians were the classic Barbarians.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[guyrotondo]

Actually, Alexander was a Macedonian himself. His father Philip was the King of Macedonia and conquered Greece, and Alexander took the reigns after Philip's death. Therefore he had no need to "conquer them". Read for yourself.

ahref=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_G reatrel=url2html-22488http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /Alexander_the_Great>

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[P0ldy]

I know. By "go on to conquer them", I meant the Athenians. Hence, they'd have resentment.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[angel'o'sphere]

Linear B is Greek in a diffrent writing (sylable script?).

Linear A is meanwhile deciphered. A german did it 2 or 3 years ago, however I'm not sur eif it is confirmed. Herbert Zebisch has a book about it on mazone, not sur eif he is the guy who "claimed" he has deciphered it.

angel'o'sphere

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[apis22]

"Greek nationalist view....". "Too bad that no one outside of Greece cares...". " ...peons spoke only their local Indo-European language..."

Clearly you are either a Bulgarian or F.Y.R.O.M.ian that went through a Communistic educational system. Too bad for you and your people (who of course have no connection with the Macedonians, Messinians, Spartans, Athenians, Corinthians, Trojans, Thessalians, Thracians, Epirotians, Cretans that created Greece. And from now on I will use the Greek name of Greece, "Hellas" if our fellow Slashdoters do not mind.

So, you say we Hellenes are nationalists. I prefer the term "free". Free as Leonidas and his 300 Spartans that went to fight with 1.000.000 Persians although they knew they would die. Free as the Hellenes of the Byzantine Empire that fought the Persians, the Arabs, the Russians, the Bulgarians, the Turks,the Crusaders. Free as the Hellenes that fought the Axis Powers in WWII although they knew they were outnumbered and that they would definitely lose. When in the same time, much bigger and wealthier countries had lowered their heads in front of the military power of the Nazis. Well if to defend your country is considered nationalism then yes we are nationalists.

"Too bad, no one outside of Greece cares..." On the contrary, many many people care. For example, the people that visited Hellas during last year's Olympic Games; I 'll bet that they care. And of course the people that finance F.Y.R.O.M. -this communistic remnant of the Cold War- oh yes! They care a lot what the international public think of Hellas-Macedonia and F.Y.R.O.M.! A lot! Otherwise they would not try to falsify true history with "The Republic of Macedonia". And definitely they would not finance an artificial state which economy is based on prostitution, drug trafficking and arms smuggling.

The " ...peons spoke only their local Indo-European language". Yeah right.... Anyway the above statement must be considered as progress. Few years ago, F.Y.R.O.M.ians were saying that Alexander did not speak Greek and that he was a Slav. Then they started saying that Phillip was Greek but Alexander's mother Olympias did not speak Greek since she was a ...Slav. Nowadays, they are saying that both Phillip and Alexander were Greeks and spoke Greek but their soldiers were Slavs. In a few years time, F.Y.R.O.M.ians will be begging Greece to accept THEM as Greeks and send some Greek troops to protect F.Y.R.O.M. from the Albanian aggression. Guess what; we are not going to send to F.Y.R.O.M. a single soldier. Why? Because we respect this artificial state.
Good luck with your pathetic propaganda. It gave me a good laugh.

You feel that this posting is flame and that I am a troll? Go to F.Y.R.O.M. and check for yourself! But before doing this check Wikipedia for "Atlantis", "Critias" and "Timeaus". You will reach very, very interesting conclusions.

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[coopex]

>Free as Leonidas and his 300 Spartans that went to fight with 1.000.000 Persians although they knew they would die.

Try 7000 Greeks vs 250,000 Persians, though it is nice that you're so nationalistic that you get your facts from The Last Samurai. Source

Re:"Macedonian civilization"

[BrokenHalo]

To nitpick further, Greece didn't really exist as a nation until much later. It was really a collection of independent city-states.

Alexander as a God

[Quirk]

Alexander, a pupil of Aristotle (neither had much if anything to say about the other), was worshiped as a God by many ancient kingdoms. His conquests to the east, starting with his famous cutting of the Gordian Knot before his conquests in ancient Persia, lead to the adumbration of the Old Silk Road which was to become the first major conduit between the far east and the west.

Upon his death his generals squabbled over the conqured lands, individually taking control of various areas. The Ptolemy reign of Egypt ended with the conquest of Egypt by Julius Ceasar and his taking of Cleopatra as his lover and mother of their child.

The true legacy of Alexander was the Hellenization of the ancient world. The ancient Greek culture was idealized and emulated by the Macedonians, (hence Aristotle as teacher to Alexander), and Alexander spread the idealized version of the ancient Greek culture throughout the lands he conqured.

Re:Alexander as a God

[kfg]

The true legacy of Alexander was the Hellenization of the ancient world.

Yeah, he brought Hellehn to it and back again.

"I seem to be a verb." - Buckminster Fuller

Not anymore, I'm afraid.

KFG

Re:Alexander as a God

[commodoresloat]

Alexander's conquests cut both ways - he spread Greek civilization, yes, but Greek civilization was also influenced by those of the peoples he conquered. As an example, you mention that he wanted to be treated like a God -- this concept of treating a human like a god was foreign to the Greeks, but was common to the Persians. Alexander demanded, for example proskynesis (a sign of obeisance) from Greek subjects, who were not too happy about it (I believe he had one of his advisors killed for refusing). Alexander demanded that such traditions be incorporated into Greek culture and they were. Of course there were more subtle examples - the point is the Greeks intermingled with other cultures around the globe and as a result were influenced by them as well as influencing them. Alexander's goal was not to spread Hellenistic culture - his goal was to spread the cult of Alexander.

Re:Alexander as a God

[Quirk]

As an example, you mention that he wanted to be treated like a God...

I stated he was worshipped as a God by many ancient peoples, this for the most part followed upon his death. You are correct though, he did wish to be treated as a God. Although he showed considerable diplomacy, or, perhaps more accurately pragmatism, in treating with the kingdoms he conquered. He kept the ruling parties in power, married into the ruling elite and coerced his generals into taking wives from the conquered elite. Certainly what little that is known about him suggests he was meglomaniacal. There are sources that suggest he murdered his father.

Interestingly Alexander's deification was in some lands blended with the Greek God Dionysus. Dionysus is remarkable as the ancient western archetypal Christ. The Greek God Dionysus was a God of rebirth in some areas and as such was an ancient version of the Christ figure who is reborn. The King reborn was known throughout lands from India to ancient Greece. In part of what is now India the King would rule for eight years then feed his flesh to his people, thus dying but being ritually reborn in the next King. A similar act lies behind the Catholic act of taking Communion. The idea incorporated in the idea of a Christ figure ties in with the idea of transcendent reason, or Logos. Logos was an idea borrowed by the fathers of the Catholic Church. "In the beginning was the word" (I forget which book of the Bible the quote comes from) but in adopting the idea of Logos, or transcedent reason as God like the Catholic Church fostered the critical, accurate reasoning that would give birth to science.

While Alexander spread cultural plasmids throughout the ancient Greek world and the East, his teacher Aristotle, was adopted by the Catholic Church as the epitome of reasoned insight and so influenced the West perhaps more than any other one man.

Re:Alexander as a God

[ockegheim]

Interesting... I always wondered why Alexander was so famous, given that he died at 26(?) and his empire broke up soon after. Of course there had to be more to it (trade routes and dissemination of culture).

Re:Alexander as a God

[edumacator]

Yeah, all that's true, but you didn't mention the most important thing...his mom was way hot.

You know you're good...

[themysteryman73]

You know you're good when they build a 2600 metre long wall in your honour.

Re:You know you're good...

[grahamlee]

What does that make Hadrian, or Offa, or the first emperor of China then?

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[ChunderDownunder]

Because Slashdot is "News for Nerds", not "News for Linux Geeks".

Myself included, many nerds have an interest in classical civilisations stretching back to their studies of Latin at school.

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[Supurcell]

Nerdom extends beyond the realm of computers.

Meanwhile, on the Greek island of Crete

[imrdkl]

Archeologists working in Aptera, a walled fortress city on the island of Crete, have recently announced the discovery of a very unusual, and very intact, tomb just outside the city. I visited Crete last year and took some pictures at the site - some pretty amazing detail. Then there's the hitchhiker who found and returned a 6500 y.o. gold pendant to the Greek authorities recently, she wanted no reward, and preferred to remain anonymous...

I couldnt think of anything funny to say about this new wall, so I figured I'd post something serious.

Found buried?

[Zaxor]

Must not have been very good at its job...

Re:Found buried?

[bobbuck]

What do you mean? They were NEVER conquered by the mole people. Not once.

Re:Found buried?

[Zaxor]

Flamebait? Come on, it's a frickin' joke!

Re:Difference

[CRCulver]

Ancient Macedonia is the northern area of present-day Greece and not the part of Yugoslavia that called itself "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and then the "Republic of Macedonia"

Wrong. The region that was identified by the ancients as Macedonia is currently split between Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, and Bulgaria. Yes, a large part is in Greece, but not all.

(even though they share no history with the historically correct Macedonias).

Wrong as well. When the Slavs invaded, they were a minority who seized power and slowly imposed their language on the majority. The people living in the Balkans today are the descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago.

Alexander the great

[ravee]

Alexander the great and Napolean are the two great conquorers in the history of the world. Yes there are others but nobody comes close to these two.

Re:Alexander the great

[dmbrun]

Genghis Khan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan There's a map there which makes both Alexander's and Napoleon's conquests look small.

Re:Alexander the great

[luvirini]

Actually the two great conquerors are more like: Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan.

People like Napoleon or Hitler get a lot of style points reduced because of the short time(historically speaking) it took to beat them.

Re:Alexander the great

[wibs]

Alexander the great and Napolean are the two great conquorers in the history of the world. Yes there are others but nobody comes close to these two.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what comes from an entirely euro-centric history curriculum. Perish the thought that other things have been happening in the whole rest of the world (and depending where you look, for a lot longer and with no less complex cultures or social structures.) I guess people just can't get enough of Waterloo.

Re:Alexander the great

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what happens when there's a lot of empty space between the population centers.

Re:Alexander the great

[johncadengo]

Alexander the great and Napolean are the two great conquorers in the history of the world. Yes there are others but nobody comes close to these two.

You don't know much about history do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghengis_Khan

Re:Alexander the great

[mollusk]

I'm pretty sure that the millions of descendents of Ghengis Khan would disagree. He ruled a far bigger empire than either Alexander or Napoleon. He did conquer almost all of Asia and part of Europe, including present day China, Russia, Turkey, Poland, Hungary, Iran, and Iraq.

Re:Alexander the great

[SenatorOrrinHatch]

Ever heard od Mao tse Tung? He united (conquered) way more land and people than those two combined, and pretty recently too.

Re:Alexander the great

[nwbvt]

Even with a euro-centric history curriculum, you still need to include Julius Ceaser in there. And William the Conquorer. No, he didn't take all that much land, but his name is "...the Conquorer". How can you leave him off the list of history's greatest conquorers.

Re:Alexander the great

[nwbvt]

The origional poster is probably wondering why you people are so obsessed with some guy William Shatner killed in the second Star Trek movie.

Re:Alexander the great

[nwbvt]

"Frankly, William doesn't belong near the top with these fellows and just Anglo centricism."

If that is supposed to be a reference to my post, you need to develop a sense of humor.

Re:Alexander the great

[LouisZepher]

Well, technically, Kirk didn't. Kahn detonated the Genesis device on board the Reliant while it was dead in the water (so to speak). :P

Re:Alexander the great

[Jace of Fuse!]

Yeah, but it seems he was just taking a bit of anger out on Europe.

Re:Alexander the great

[nwbvt]

This guy was also wondering why we are talking about some guy from star trek.

Christ, get a fucking life. You've been pretending to stalk me for years and you don't even have my right middle initial.

Re:Alexander the great

[drsquare]

People like Napoleon or Hitler get a lot of style points reduced because of the short time(historically speaking) it took to beat them.

Modern warfare is a lot quicker and more deadly than it was thousands of years ago. I doubt Genghis Kahn would have fared very well against tanks and bombers.

Alexander conquered countries that were not very highly militarised or advanced. Napoleon was surrounded by countries with equally strong armies.

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[Psykosys]

This is really neat and everything, but what purpose does it serve putting it here?

"Yahoo News is reporting that Greek archaeologists have discovered a 2,600 meter defensive wall..."

How did they find out?

[laejoh]

a 2,600 meter defensive wall whose design was 'inspired by Alexander the Great.'

How did they find out this? Was there a writing on one of the rocks? Something like:

(c) 400 BC - Patent pending - A. The Great

4th Century *BC*

[nutshell42]

There *is* a difference, you know.

Re:4th Century *BC*

[Witchblade]

From TFA:

Bronze coins from the period of Theodosius, the 4th-century AD Byzantine Emperor who abolished the ancient Olympic Games, were also found hidden inside the wall.

Sounds like the wall was under construction for over 800 years. Or the later Romans did some extensive modifications.

Not 4th Centrury, but 4th Century BC

[alcmaeon]

In common parlance, when one says the "4th Century" the listener or reader does, and should, assume the 4th Century AD is referenced, since this is the current timescale, i.e. 20th Century refers to the 20th Century A.D., not B.C.

This article is talking about the 4th Century B.C. or B.C.E., however you want to designate it.

Re:Not 4th Centrury, but 4th Century BC

[Hirsto]

Dang, I thought it was "B.F.S.M." http://www.venganza.org/>

Re:Not 4th Centrury, but 4th Century BC

[Whiteox]

Wrong.

Re:Not 4th Centrury, but 4th Century BC

[Whiteox]

Incorrect statement. The date mentioned in the article is 3rd century AD, not BC.

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[yobjob]

And some of us just love building city walls, fortifying veteran pikemen then wandering off and whiping the Sioux off the map. Damned Sioux *shakes fist*

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[scooter.higher]

Ahhh... I overlooked that. It makes sense now :-) Time for another pot of coffee.

Interesting stories.

[jd]

On the one hand, one must question the sanity of a person who hands in a large (for the time) solid gold, 6,500 year old artifact. Especially in a country well-known for artifacts being plundered. In England, the Government pays for finds classed as "Treasure Trove", but there is no evidence the unnamed woman got so much as a free can of soft drink for a find that will likely end up in a museum and earn the archaeological team involved in analyzing the find a good few million.

On the other hand, it is precisely because there are people who do hand in such amazing discoveries that so much is known about the ancient world. There are many sites, throughout Europe, which were discovered precisely because of a reported find leading to a study and finally an excavation.

I have often been critical of archaeologists, and the current state of Italy's archaeological remains doesn't give me much confidence in the competence of world heritage organizations either. Many of the major sites are at the point of collapse, one section of wall at a major site DID collapse last year and would have killed a few hundred tourists if it had happened during the day. Emergency repairs, required within the next year or two, will require between ten to twenty times the money budgetted for ALL Itallian archaeology and maintenance for the next decade, simply in order to prevent massive casualties.

Discoveries are of the utmost importance, proper excavation and documentation are vital, but all of that is useless if proper preservation of finds is ignored. The exceptionally fine ancient monument returned from Italy - a massive obelisk that had been plundered during World War II and was in exceptionally good condition, was smashed into three pieces in order to return it on the cheap. If this is the way things are going to happen in future, the Rosetta Stone will be returned to Egypt as a fine powder - the Egyptians can always glue the grains together again, after all.

Sorry if I sound cynical - well, maybe not entirely sorry. I have a very hard time reconciling demonstrable gross incompetence and money hoarding with any kind of respect for heritage or history. As I've said often enough before, we have many possible futures. Futures are a dime a dozen. We can take our pick of those. However, we only ever have one past. Lose that, and it's gone. You don't get another go. Whatever is destroyed is lost and can never be replaced.

Hey, for some things, that probably doesn't matter too much, and there's just too much history to preserve everything 100% from the information level through to the artifacts themselves. The world is only so big and we're running out of room as it is. Besides which, it is really the information that matters anyway, provided you have gathered as much as is practical and lose as little as possible.

In the "perfect world" (at least, perfect in my highly opinionated world view) no effort would be spared to gather all the information that technology can extract, with that information distributed as widely and as freely as the available technology supports. After that, artifacts become relatively unimportant and sites become more useful for tourism than for study. Provided they don't fall down.

I'm not seeing that kind of study going on, though. The new burial site that has been found, for example - there should be plenty of DNA and mDNA that can be extracted for testing to get an idea of the ethnic makeup of the people of the time. They could even put the mDNA markers up on one of the numerous DNA family history sites, to see if living relatives exist and to encourage a greater participation by average folk in the whole archaeology thing. People will be far more willing to invest a little extra time and money on a project if they feel involved - even if only highly superficially - than they will if it is purely seen as the idle musings of some University types with a trowel fetish.

The pendant is another good example. Gold i

Re:Interesting stories.

[imrdkl]

Good points. Just as a side note, the team working at Aptera seemed pretty well-funded. I could feel the excitement and anticipation among them anyhow, even as I took my pictures from a relative distance. Aptera as a complete site is also quite nicely maintained a preserved, although it's clear that there is some repairs and research which are "in the queue" for funding as well. Whats perhaps odd, at least regarding Aptera, was the relative tendancy of the locals not to promote it. When I mentioned to several Cretans that I intended a visit there, I got some rather astonished looks - one lady even said, "thats for us". I don't think she meant that I shouldn't go there, but rather intended to express her surprise that an ordinary tourist would be interested... I dunno.

Anyways, a healthy dose of cynicism is probably in order, especially with the way certain sites are being devastated, those in Iraq not the least among them. It's sad indeed.

Re:Interesting stories.

[Gone Jackal]

...a find that will likely end up in a museum and earn the archaeological team involved in analyzing the find a good few million.

I have yet to meet an archaeologist who makes millions (though I can dream). At least in recent years, and with increasing awareness of and support for antiquities laws, the choice is between a difficult sell on the black market or stiff fines, if not jail time. You'd pretty much have to be mad to keep it (also add Indiana Jones "This Belongs In A Museum!" quote here).

The exceptionally fine ancient monument returned from Italy - a massive obelisk that had been plundered during World War II and was in exceptionally good condition, was smashed into three pieces in order to return it on the cheap.

If you read the early German survey reports on Aksum, you'll find the monument had already fallen into three pieces before the Italians pillaged it during the Invasion of Ethiopia. It was basically glued together before it ended up in front of Mussolini's Africa-Ministry. It has not yet been set up again, as it's undergoing restoration amid debates on how to stabilize it.

While I agree with the general tone of your post, the accusation of widespread gross negligence or incompetence, especially when based on a puff-piece on yahoo news, is out of place. All of these investigations do take place, though few major news outlets are interested in printing them. A site like this will provide enough material for years to come, no results of which will be published in the near future, though. When actual results are published, they'll no longer have the "Oooh, new, shiny!" appeal which helps to get the story into the papers.

And now! For the real story..........

[Whiteox]

Quote: "ATHENS (AFP) - Greek archaeologists excavating an ancient Macedonian city in the foothills of Mount Olympus have uncovered a 2,600-metre defensive wall whose design was "inspired by the glories of Alexander the Great," the site supervisor said Thursday.
Built into the wall were dozens of fragments from statues honouring ancient Greek gods, including Zeus, Hephaestus and possibly Dionysus, archaeologist Dimitrios Pantermalis told a conference in the northern port city of Salonika, according to the Athens News Agency.
Early work on the fortification is believed to have begun under Cassander, the fourth-century BC king of Macedon who succeeded Alexander the Great. Cassander is believed to have ordered the murders of Alexander's mother, wife and infant son, Pantermalis said.
The wall's design suggests that it was "inspired by the glory of Alexander the Great in the East," as the young king sought to emulate grandiose structures encountered during his campaigns, Pantermalis told the conference.
Bronze coins from the period of Theodosius, the 4th-century AD Byzantine Emperor who abolished the ancient Olympic Games, were also found hidden inside the wall.

The discovery was made in the archaeological site of Dion, an ancient fortified city and key religious sanctuary of the Macedonian civilisation, which ruled much of Greece until Roman times.
Prior excavations at Dion have already revealed two theatres, a stadium, and shrines to a variety of gods, including Egyptian deities Sarapis, Isis and Anubis, whose influence in the Greek world grew in the wake of Alexander's conquest of Egypt." End quote.

It sort of answers it all doesn't it?

Re:Difference

[CRCulver]

Knowing the population shifts that occured in the years up to today, no one can honestly claim that they are the true descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago.

The inhabitants of the Balkans maintain the same general set of genes that other Europeans share, even definitely autochthonous peoples like the Basques. That is how we know that invaders e.g. the Indo-Europeans were minorities compared to the peoples who eventually adopted their language. One of the big sea changes in archaeology over the past few decades is a recognition that there were no truly large population shifts in recent antiquity. So, we can honestly claim that the inhabitants of Macedonia today are, excepting the Roma, Jews, and occasional Turks who trickled in, the same people as a couple of thousand years ago.

Re:Difference

[alexhard]

Sorry to bother you and spark up this heated debate but this is a flaimbait i couldn't let go of..
You see, while the language the ancient macedonians used was different than the athenian dialect, which was the most wide-spread at the time, most linguists share the view that they are pretty closely related.

And while some of their traditions, etc might have been different from other greek city states, the dwdekatheon (the twelve gods - zeus etc.) is what they believed in too.

We mustn't forget that the rest of the greek city states allied with the macedonians in order to repel persian invasions..

Now on to the important thing..the people who are currently living in FYROM, are slavic and came to the balcan area at around the 6th century. The ancient macedonian empire fell at 148 BC. Their language is totaly different. What was most crazy was their initial flag..the naming is kinda OK with me i guess but come on, the Vergina Sun? that's stretching it a bit too far..

Alexander the interesting bit, not 4th century

[fantomas]

For those of us in the old world, I reckon the possible Alexander connection is the interesting bit. Maybe a re-titling of the headline to reflect this? 4th century BCE walls and remains? got them all over the place. Maybe the date is more exciting to folks whose archaeological records only stretch back a couple of hundred years ;-)

Re:Alexander the interesting bit, not 4th century

[Witchblade]

For those of us in the old world, I reckon the possible Alexander connection is the interesting bit. Maybe a re-titling of the headline to reflect this? 4th century BCE walls and remains? got them all over the place. Maybe the date is more exciting to folks whose archaeological records only stretch back a couple of hundred years ;-)

Every continent except Antartica has archaelogical records stretching back more than a few hundred years. Architectural records, too - which is what I think you meant to imply.

Or did you mean that if a city wasn't built by white people it doesn't count? I cheap shot at us Americans is all in fun, but even in the United States we have ruins dating more than 1000 years. (Fort Ancient, Kahokia, Chaco Canyon, etc.) Unfortunately Our ancestors shared your prejudice, as most of them were torn down for farmland. And old books are full of scholarly arguments about how Europeans could have sailed across the ocean, built the cities, then suddenly vanished - because all the obviously Indian burials and household goods found at the sites HAD to come from later squatters, and not the "civilized" builders.

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[musakko]

"News for Greeks"

Re:Difference

[g3rr!t]

I follow you 100%, but I wonder to what extent the same naming/population issues are applicable to other cases like Luxemburg and Kuwait.

If I recall correctly, both countries have a neighbouring province in Belgium/Iraq respectively with the same name, and there must be more examples. I've never heard anyone propose "South Luxembourg" or "South Kuwait" although they may very well be more correct.

it's more complicated than that

[Trepidity]

Whether Alexander was Greek depends on what you consider Greek. You're correct that there is a distinction between classical Greeks (i.e. Athenians, Spartans, and others) and classical Macedonians. However, modern Greeks are actually in large part descendents of Macedonians and Hellenized non-Greeks; it's not as if modern Greeks are somehow purebred descendents of ancient Athenians.

To the extent that the Macedonian Empire created much of what would become the "Hellenic World", Alexander was certainly Greek almost definitionally.

Re:it's more complicated than that

[BrokenHalo]

In any case, to claim that a 4thC BC fortification was inspired by Alexander the Great is somewhat stretching a long bow, given that (IIRC) he was born in 356 BC.

But now that I've just read TFA, I notice they didn't say it was. Seems it was just the submitter who didn't read it. Silly me.

completely unrelated

[Trepidity]

You linked to an article on a nation comprised of Slavic peoples who migrated to the region nearly 1000 years after Alexander died.

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[Stephan Schulz]

Actually, getting rid of the typos:

"Yahoo News is reporting that Geek archaeologists have discovered a 2,600 meter defensive Wall..."

I wonder what diet Larry follows to grow to that size...and wether he is defensive about the onslaught of Python or the delay of Perl 6.

Re:WTF?

[Anubis350]

::beats troll with own club::

I'd say "find another bridge to sit under" but you'd prolly have to have some knowledge of history to decide what was a good bridge.

This is both News for Nerds, and Stuff that Matters. Go away. Sit under your crappy bridge and wait for the Billy Goats Gruff.

::mutters about things like "too early in the morning" and "damn idiot trolls" and "I need coffee"::

Re:Difference

[ale3ns]

I don't know about those provinces and the history of them so I don't have an honest opinion. But, the case here is that FYROM is claiming a macedonian nationality. This would complicate things when you already have 1.000.000 people in your country calling themeselves macedonians and claiming they are Descendants of Alexander, yet beleive their ancestors where Greek and have nothing to do with FYROM. So recognizing A "Republic of Macedonia", is telling these people that either they are not "macedonian" or they have something to do with FYROM. The recent US State department's statement of a "macedonian minority" in Greece just complicates the matter. To be fair, there are people from FYROM living in Greece (i guess), but I doubt they are even 1.000 in number. But you see how this can get complicated. (Like when you say macedonian minority, what exactly are you talking about? Both sides call themeselves macedonians..). The "North" part of the proposed name would determine them geographically and let history be what historians make of it. And generally speaking, let each side beleive what it wants...

I personally think both countries are caught up in other's geopolitical games. But that's just my opinion. Greece is heavily investing in FYROM so the ground of a good relationship is their. We just have to stop trying to relate everything with history which you can interpretate as you like and find a solution that benefits both sides...

How about the Olympics?

[screenrc]

I don't know if Makedonias were allowed to
compelte in the Olympics. It is a fair
indication that if Makedonias were invited to compete
with other Greeks, then Makedonias were also Greeks.
Please remember that Larisa is only a short
distance away from Pela (Makedonia), and Larisa
was a Greek city famous for it horsemanship --
the Kentucky Derby of ancient times. On the
surface, it seems more probable that Makedonia
was considered Greek among the Greeks.

Re:How about the Olympics?

[nicholas645]

The first Macedonian who could compete in the Olympic games was Alexander's grandfather.

Basically only Greeks could compete in the Olympic Games, so by that token they must've been sufficiently Hellinised so as to warrant participation in the Games.

Later on the Romans were allowed to participate but that's much later.

As to the Macedonians' 'Greekness' personally I imagine they were Hellinised but did maintain some difference.

Plutarch and Arrian (biographers after Alexander's death) both mention instances of when Alexander spoke to his troops or staff officers in Macedonian which couldn't be understood by the Greeks of his court.

One funny thing about Macedonians is that they unlike the Greeks drank their wine straight up without the use of additives (honey, herbs, and water).

Macedonians were to my knowledge not mentioned as participants in the Trojan War whereas Homer mentions all manner of other Greek people from all over the modern day Greek Peninsula and its surrounding islands.

That Alexander spread Greek ideas and culture throughout the Middle East is in fact testament to at least an appreciation of what he learnt under his teacher Aristotle.

Were they Greeks? Probably not
Were they Hellinised? the elite certainly was

Today's Macedonians have little if anything to do at all culturally, or 'ethnically' with the Macedonians of old so there's no reason to discuss that. Far too many of the residents of Greek Macedonia are recent transplants from Asia Minor (1920's) and Hellinised Slavs.

Re:alexander was good, but not the greatest

[XchristX]

You're forgetting Demetrius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_I_of_Bactr ia) , who succeeded where Alexander the Ordinary failed (ie actually conquering a sizable fraction of South Asia). Demetrius was less crazy and more enlightened than Alexander the Ordinary, too.

Lesson from history

[backslashdot]

Walls eventually turn into tourist attractions.

Eh? She is the modern reincarnation

[amcdiarmid]

of Aphrodite! (You Hoser.)

Bronze Coins

[JoeCommodore]

(Flipping trhough Payers Handbook) Are you sure they are'nt copper or gold pieces? If they are bronze, what good are they. (grin)

I've got it!

[wormnet.org]

Ms. Warwick built that wall to keep in her psychic friends.

Mod Parent Up

[nutshell42]

You're absolutely right =) -- although it's not clear whether the coins were part of the structure (i.e. lost or otherwise put there during construction work) or hidden later on (i.e. someone dug a hole in an 800 year old wall to hide his money)

Seems like /.'s sloppiness regarding AD/BC was actually a good decision =P

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[ToasterofDOOM]

That's because everyone knows that infantry are only there to protect the canons! A few falconets will solve your problem, assuming you are talking about AoE3.

Relevence?

[Loconut1389]

Nearly all scientific names use latin
A lot of medicinal applications and names come from latin
Every day phrases you've probably heard:
"Quid pro quo" - something for something (I think I have that right)
"Caveat Emptor" - buyer beware
"Veni Vidi Vici" - "I Came, I Saw, I Conquered"
"Carpe Diem" - sieze the day
"Carpe Cervisi" - sieze the beer.. ok so that one's not every day

and then theres a bunch of abbreviations, e.g.:
c.f. "compare"
et al. "and others"
e.g. "for example"
i.e. "in other words"
vs. "against"

and then of course some english words that derive from latin:
virus is a cognate of 'vrus'
urban derives from 'urbs'
terrestrial derives from 'terra'

and many more...

This latin language lesson brought to you by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases

Off by 8 centuries...

[voteforkerry78]

"Bronze coins from the period of Theodosius, the 4th-century AD Byzantine Emperor who abolished the ancient Olympic Games, were also found hidden inside the wall." Sort of an important detail, don't you think?

I assure you...

[YesIAmAScript]

Americans don't give a flying f*** about the Balkans. Most Americans don't know Macedonia even exists. It just seems like narcissism or wanting to elevate their status for a country like those in the Balkans to say that the USA would manipulate their position.

Now also, as an American, I can say the Balkans baffle me. They're the biggest failure in modern state-building. People in the Balkans like Ibrahim Rugova, self professed "President of Kosovo" feel like they must split their already fragmented country because they don't want to have to get along with people who aren't of the same religion as them. It's too bad. It's a shame, and it is definitely not American doing.

I don't think Macedonia is needed to smuggle guns and people in and out of Europe. Bulgaria fulfills that purpose pretty well too.

+50% defense

[wh0me]

...except vs. gunpowder based units.

so it'd be obsolete by now anyway.

Re:WTF?

[Monkey]

You should go hang out on digg

Re:WTF?

[Hirsto]

You sound like a farce to be reckened with...

Ok, guess I can see that.

[jd]

I apologize to those archaeologists who DO do all (or as much as realistic) of the study work that can be done. I guess some of my cynicism comes from the fiasco of Seahenge and also from the archaeology being done in the area I used to live in England - not the fault of those doing the work, they're just so massively underfunded and underequipt, with such gigantic time pressures, that I'm quite convinced they're missing at least as much as they're finding, and they're nowhere near doing all of the tests that could be being done.

If you could suggest a good archaeological journal that actually covers the discoveries that DON'T make the mainstream news (online and free would be ideal, but I somehow doubt there are many of those) then I would truly appreciate it.

Re:Ok, guess I can see that.

[zobier]

To find journals that cover the discoveries that don't make the mainstream news you'd probably need to find individual dig blogs like high-pasture-cave.org. I went out to Uamh An Ard Achadh with George while I was visiting my sister on Skye last year. Here's George and I at the wet sieving station. Here's a cool piece of worked antler (2nd pic down) that I discovered in the binding matrix. That was one of the best field trips I've been on :) (except the damned bloody midges). George and co are finding some really amazing stuff there like a rare Iron Age burial.

Many European societies

[Flying pig]

Have had a rough equivalent to the meter (metre). In many places in Europe where there were Scandinavian invasions, old towns are built on a metric where a house is approx. 6M wide or a multiple thereof. (Mine is, and though it is only 160 years old it is built on foundations that probably ultimately go back to around 700AD). And the Beaker People seem to have had a unit of length just short of a metre, and called the "neolithic yard" by some archaeologists. There is obviously some deep reason for it, perhaps based on the marching pace.

Problem with /. is that the young geeks nowadays aren't nearly geeky enough.

Re:WTF?

[EtherealStrife]

Apparently I missed the previous replies questioning imipak's presence on slashdot

Archeology is a science

[Emetophobe]

Quoted from this website:

Science is concerned with gaining knowledge about the natural world by observation. To do their job, scientists systematically describe phenomena, classify observations, and reach conclusions. This often involves controlled and replicable laboratory experiments, such as those in chemistry or psychology, but it may also consist of detailed observation without experiment. Some fields cannot solely rely on experiments; these are called historical sciences. Geology, evolutionary biology and archeology are historical sciences that deal with past events that no longer can be directly observed. The evidence left behind, however, can be studied to reconstruct what took place (Ashmore and Sharer 1996:10).

Re:Archeology is a science

[nwbvt]

Sure, but that doesn't mean we can't categorize it better. Archeology is very distinct from the other sciences, as your quote indicates.

Who was the greatest conquerer?

[SirBruce]

If you go by land area, this might be useful:

http://www.hostkingdom.net/earthrul.html

However, those are by country, not by conqueror. I suppose the real measure would be, not what one single ruler ruled over the largest area, but what one single ruler grew his domain by the largest amount during his reign. And that was probably Genghis Khan.

Still, the type of resistance that the likes of Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great encountered in their campaigns is far different from that of, say, Napolean or Hitler. Back in the old days you could just drag an army through a few cities and claim the whole area as yours with very little actual "control" outside the urban areas, and sometimes not even then. The Roman Empire, on the other hand, was much more systematic and substantial in it's control over most areas, but even then at times large areas of the empire were really under Barbarian control with minimal Roman influence.

Bruce

Re:Alexander the great (Who was that?)

[hermank]

Alexander the great and Napolean are the two great conquorers in the history of the world. Yes there are others but nobody comes close to these two.

Sorry, but I just know Windows and Linux are two great conquorers in the world. Yes, there are others but nobody comes close to these two.

Wow!

[hausmaus]

I didn't know that Alexander the Great was a fan of Pink Floyd. I knew those guys were old, but I had no idea THAT old.

Re:Troll?

[saskboy]

Look at the ID. In a world where cartoons of a man can incite riots, spelling out YHWH could be considered trollish.

Re:But can you run Linux on it?

[kcarlin]

The night editor apparently nicked the part in TFA where ninja hackers in Austin are working on a linux port. (I think his wife is a BSD bigot, the NetBSD port is way behind on their battlement device drivers.)

On TV back then...

[mintrepublic]

Stupid Anatolians, dey tear down my schitty wall!

Is this news ?

[emilper]

maybe this is redundant ... but I have to ask this question:

Why is this news ? Wals, from the fourth century BC or even older are found every damn week, and I cannot imagine how could Alexander the Great inspire a wall design ... maybe they mean the "greek wall", but that is quite common all over the South-Eastern Europe, Anatolia, Levant up to Pakistan. Ancient walls raise up the building expenses in that area on a regular basis, since you have to pay some archaeologists to look over it just in case the local government will miss the great treasure burried there by the local founding hero.

Last year there was the big news about the prehistoric dildo, piece any sane archaeologist would have been able to identify with the implement used for resharpening stone blades.

Are the archaelogists that hungry that they must invent news? I thought that's the apanage of the PR people working for IT companies...

that's the same time period

[Trepidity]

The 4th century B.C. spanned from 301 to 400 B.C.

Re:that's the same time period

[BrokenHalo]

The 4th century B.C. spanned from 301 to 400 B.C.

Well, duh.

I was referring to his lifespan in the greater scheme of things, and the submitter's claim - oh, never mind, go back to sleep... ;-)