Slashdot Mirror
Teenager Wins Email Suit Against City of Kokomo
An anonymous reader writes "Recently, a 16 year old sued the city of Kokomo, Indiana for access to an email list that he suspected the mayor was mis-using for political purposes. Despite the mayor's refusal to give in, the teenager won the case. The city will have to pay not only for the expensive attorneys they hired, but may have to compensate the 16 year old's pro-bono counsel."
You can't fight city hall! Or rather, you can fight city hall but the universe will implode if you win. Way to go, I never got to see France.
Demented But Determined.
Uhhh, am I missing something here? Isn't that an oxymoron? Didn't RTFA.
audioLibre - freedom of music
As I understand it, Pro-Bono means the lawyer works for free for a case they believe will win them points and get people to like them (the lawyer, that is). How do you compensate a volunteer? Or am I just totally off base here?
Slackmaster K Proprietor, DamnedNice Blog
Much worse misusing of lists has occurred in Indiana. Before the national "do not call list" was implemented Indiana had one. Charitable organizations did not have to oblige by this list. But the FOP took it one step further, adding all the names on the "do not call list" to their call list. This undoubtedly led to them getting more than a few unlisted numbers in the process.
quis custodiet ipsos custodes
My suggestion for a better headline: "American discovers balls"
Now if only the rest of the country could get around to holding their political leaders accountable for their misdeeds.
Beyond the knee-jerk reaction, which would be "yay for the student, and peoples rights" in my case, I kind of think the city has a point, even if it isn't justified in law. I certainly don't want government institiutions making it easy for people to get such lists out of them, although it should be possible.
Oh no... it's the future.
Anyone who is forced to be pro-Bono should be compensated.
I mean... what's with wearing the sunglasses indoors? So pretentious!
So he successfully sued the city to give him the email adresses of all people that are on some city mailing list?
So any Spammer can now just request these lists to get free verified addresses?
How is that in the public interest? What laws are the basis for this?
I wonder if this is enough of a joy for the Beach Boys to sing about it?
Ryan - http://www.thecosmotron.com/
I'm missing something here, why couldn't this kid go down to the city council offices or whatever and look at their paper printout of the two mailing lists side-by-side, and draw his comparisions and conclusions on the spot? Regardless, this is a serious yawn. The spammer that gets this mailing list tomorrow will make more money than the lawyers on both sides. Yay!
Any fool can criticise, condemn, and complain, and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin
The plaintiff Nees, said, "I don't see why they spent all of that time and money when they knew it would be in vain. They knew the law wasn't on their side, yet they continued to fight."
Ask Microsoft. They are constantly suing and being sued regardless of their guilt or innocence or even the law. They have all the money and the people suing them usually don't. They can hold out for years until their opponent's money runs out. If they lose in court, they simply appeal and in the end, when and if an appeal goes against them, they simply ignore it. Then the whole process starts all over again. Meanwhile, they keep raking in their ill gotten gains.
I guess the Kokomo mayor thought he might be able to bluff his way through this one. In the end, he probably decided that the political fallout from not complying with the law or appealing the court's decision would be too great. A politician's thinking process is unlike that of a kleptocrat's, errr I mean executives of a major corporation. The executive worries only about money. The politician worries about votes.
To anyone who lives in or near Kokomo, this type of continuance in the face of facts is not surprising. I suspect the mayor had hoped the kid would give up.
His loss is a community loss in tax dollars, which, when considering that Delphi Automotive, one of the city's two largest corporations is in bankruptcy is quite irresponsible.
The beach boys sang about Kokomo Island, not about Kokomo, Indiana.
First off, please don't /. my local newspaper. Secondly this is only one of Matt McKillip's blunders. He has commented how he thinks divorce should be illegal in the city of Kokomo, had a "prayer chapel" installed in a Redi-Med type medical center to prevent a bar from being turned into a strip club, given top jobs to campaign contibutors, changed traditionally public meetings to invite only, etc ...
Really, he is the worst mayor we have had here for quite a while. Delphi and Chrysler, Kokomo's top employers have both recently laid off people. Kokomo is on a downfall and MAtt McKillip isn't helping it.
"City officials turned down Nees, saying the teen could come in and hand-copy the list. Officials said giving out copies of address lists would leave the newsletter subscribers open to spam and computer viruses."
I know it would've been a major pain to hand copy, but if this was a real effort by the teen to research and uncover abuse, why not just copy them down? I mean this has taken over a year now. He could have hand copied them and been done with it long before now.
"Murray said the law, which restricts access to mailing addresses, doesn't extend to e-mail addresses..."
This tells me that the City wasn't asking the teen to hand copy the addresses just to be jerks about it. They were applying an existing law for mailing addresses to email addresses. Seems reasonable to me.
"Groth took the case on a pro-bono basis, but Murray asked for an accounting of Groth's fees in her ruling. Groth said Tuesday it's likely he could bill several thousand dollars for the case."
Before we attack the bloodsucking lawyer, the compensation for the pro-bono part of this was the judges idea. This goes to show that we probably need some way of reeling in some of these justices. I mean, it's one thing if she wants to pay this lawyer out of her pocket, but she just imposed a huge bill on the tax payers of that city to pay someone who was fine doing this for free (free meaning the publicity).
Do what is right and let the consequence follow
Aruba, Jamaica
Ooh I wanna take ya
To Bermuda, Bahama
Come on pretty mama
Key Largo, Montego
Baby why don't we go
Ooh I wanna take you down to Kokomo
We'll get there fast
And then we'll take it slow
That's where we wanna go
Way down to Kokomo
I think I need more coffee this morning. And maybe a lobotomy so I can forget the late 80s/early 90s once and for all. The booze doesn't seem to be working.
(Two cymbals and a snare drum fall down a canyon.)
So the kid sued and won. Who cares? Why is this on Slashdot?
Frankly, I'm surprised the city tried to contest this at all.
Aside from the Freedom of Information Act, I could think of a ton of good reasons why this kid should get this or why anyone should be able to get a list like this. Whatever happened to the good old days where we were encouraged to snail mail every single person representing us in office?
When I was younger, I was pretty dissatisfied with the insane food prices at my high school. Even worse was the fact that my parents were making me pay for my own food. So I threatened the school with the Freedom of Information Act and demanded to see all food related reciepts and documents including pay and taxes. They gave me two huge boxes full of crap and I spent one night sorting through everything. And, surprisingly enough, after I sorted through and found out how much they were paying Arrowmark or whoever the food service provider was--it just didn't make sense. The local grocery store had better prices.
My work here is dung.
According to WikiPedia it's a Sandals resort and part of Jamaica.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokomo_Island and yes it was the Beach Boys.
John
-- "...I'm a bad guy because I, well, I sing some rock-and-roll songs." M. Manson
"Pro bono" on the other hand is short for pro bono publicum -- "for the good of the public".
It's a quaint idea, doing something because it's the right thing to do. I don't doubt that increased notoriety is an incentive for pro bono work, although many pro bono cases are ones that will never garner much attention. In this case, I think the judge was eager to punish the defendant, and ordered the pro bono attorney's fees calculated so he'd have an excuse for making the punishment heavier.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
After reading TFA, is seems to me the whole thing was about who gets to be lazy. The city officials said that he could have the list, but he had to hand copy it himself. He sued to get them to just give him a copy of the list, and compensate his lawyer.
I can sort of see his point. He was comparing two lists: a city newsletter, and one the mayor was using to build up political support. If he hand copied it, they could alway say he made a mistake or changed it, there would be no tracability. But an actual, official copy couldn't be denied. Now I understand why the mayor didn't want to give it out. It was a case of CYA.
When you want something built, come see me. If you want correct grammar and spelling, get a F*ing liberal arts student.
Disclaimer: This is comming from a K-Town Native.
i elsen.detassel.htmlCorn Detasseling. It's hand-ripping slave labor. Ask anyone from around there, they'll tell that such a punishment makes Guantanamo Bay look like Club Med.
The only fitting punishment, as any Hoosier would know (that I am) is to put him in the fields and make him do some http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/990723.N
Oh wait, he still lives in Kokomo. That's punishment enough.
sean s.
What I don't understand is how the government can make a distinction between hand-copying and other forms of copying.
/. and have existed for years)? Is that hand-copying? What if I use a whole candy-machine full of silly puddy? Can I use carbon paper too?
What if I have a hand-held scanner (as was posted the other day on
I mean I realize that the government can legislatively make a distinction between a 3lb carrot and a 5lb carrot, but do they think they are being clever with this? Is this security through frustration/writers-cramp? Is there some time limit placed on the copier?
Does the government employ 1000s of workers to hand-compile the list initially?
That and a sense of humour.
What a waste of mod points...
How could Sonny Bono be pretentious when he is six feet under?
Comment title refers to a Kokomo Arnold song which influenced Robert Johnson.
Guess it's all a matter of perspective.
Curb CO2 emissions: Kill yourself today!
I can't speak to your particular high school cafeteria experience, but my mother runs a local school cafeteria (my old elementary school, actually) and the purchasing process is more complicated than it might seem at first blush. There are very strict rules on what the dietary allowances for a meal are and the cafeteria manager is forced to buy certain amounts of surplus food off of the government if they want to be subsidized by the government free and discounted lunch program. Add that to the fun of having to get each and every receipt individually approved by administration, and I could easily see a cafeteria manager turning to a single company (and I suspect you mean Aramark) for their food supply needs rather than driving all over town to try to save 5 cents on the price of tuna. My mother manages it by shopping at Sam's Club and the patience of a saint (as well as years of experience in putting together meals for our family of 8). And admittedly, those who came before her were not as good at economizing. When she started working there, the funds for the cafeteria and the funds for the rest of the school were kept strictly seperate because the cafeteria consistently was in the red. Now, they're fighting to get the budgets merged again because my mother has the cafeteria in better financial straits than the school.
Incidentally, I'm wondering if you're in a private school or outside of the US, because here, the prices for cafeteria meals are standardized due to the aforementionned free and reduced lunch program.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
The reason the kid tried to get the email list is that he was subscribed to the list and got political solicitations from the mayor. When the list was just supposed to be a "what is going on in Kokomo" type list
There is new legislation being worked on to make the ruling void anyways.
below is grabbed from http://www.indianacog.org/ (first place I could find the bill listing)
----------------------
SB 205 (see more information on this page) passed out of the House Government and Regulatory Reform Committee with a 9-1 vote and is eligible for second reading amendments in the House. Should it pass, Nees' successful ruling will be a moot point. Legislators will have made secret the e-mail lists compiled by public officials.
"'The city's arguments here are of a policy rather than a legal character, and are more appropriately addressed to the Indiana Legislature rather than to this court," Murray wrote. "The courts cannot fill gaps in a statutory scheme designed by the legislature.'"
This judge chose not to "legislate from the bench," but instead deferred to the people, via the legislature, to determine public policy. So, for this coup we have to thank a non-activist judge.
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
But then I read:
:)
Murray said the law, which restricts access to mailing addresses, doesn't extend to e-mail addresses, as the city's attorneys contended. She said the city must turn over either a copy or an electronic copy of the list.
While I'm all for the government not being able to hide this kind of stuff (and it sounds like they weren't really, they gave the kid a chance to make his own copy, so they were making it difficult), I'm not sure I like the idea of someone being able to send a note to city hall and get copies of email addresses. Sure, your physical address gives people a lot more opportunities to abuse it, but I don't want my email address being handed out either.
Or at least I wouldn't if I'd ever given the government my email address. I figure if it's that important, they can eat the cost of bulk postage and send me a letter
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." -Albert Einstein
He wins a free trip to Bermuda, Bahama, and a pretty mama! Seriously, calling a town in Indiana Kokomo reminds me of the story of how Greenland came to be called Greenland when it is most certainly not a green land.
Ok, ok, I didn't think the result was really that important but ...
I was working with three other guys to try and figure out what suggestions to make. And also let me say that this was a high school (not a gradeschool) and there were some insanely pricey healthy foods but super cheap candy and twinkies as you went up to the cash register.
We contacted Hy-Vee (our local grocery store) and asked them how difficult (and how expensive) it would be to make regular shipments of real fruit and real food to the cafeteria. It turned out to be quite a bit cheaper than shipping it 3 hours from the nearest metropolis--imagine that!
So when we approached them with this idea, they said it wasn't that simple. That they had contracts with their distributor and they couldn't break them--which was strange because they could bring in Dominos pizza every friday.
So, in the end, they made token price adjustments on the foods to make everyone happy. A nickel here, a dime there. But the prices kept going up until they were eventually were higher than they were before. They blame that on inflation. Then I graduated and just kind of accepted that crap like that happens in hick towns like the one where I grew up.
My work here is dung.
What about the privacy of the people who submitted their email addresses?
This is just typical of Slashdot. If Sony wanted the list for the same reason, then the privacy of the email recipients would matter. Since there's a teenager involved, it's OK for him to violate their privacy all he wants.
It just proves that Slashdoters don't really care about privacy at all. It's just a tool to advance other agendas or bash your enemies.
What's the difference between what this kid did and what the US government is currently trying to do with search engine results? Besides the fact that the kid requested email addresses, not just results that can't be tied to any particular person.
/. crowd justifying this kid? Because he's one of the "little people," it's ok for the city to hand him a stack of email addresses rather than just shredding them? If that's the case, why not just create a white pages for email and let the spammers have at, like telemarketing companies do with our phones (I have to leave my ringer off these days).
I don't think the government should be able to get those results, but what's with the
"That's why we call them JUDGES - we elect them to use their judgement."
And what about the judges who are appointed?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
In a city like Kokomo, chances are the City Attorney handled this legal matter. In a city of that size, he's not getting paid much at all, and has an even smaller budget to hire outside help.
You're wrong.
"As I understand it, FOIA requests..."
apply to FEDERAL government, not state and local.
There are laws that apply locally as well, but they obviously vary from state to state.
From wiki
"United States
Main article: Freedom of information in the United States
In the United States the Freedom of Information Act was signed into law by President Lyndon B. Johnson on July 4, 1966 and went into effect the following year. The Electronic Freedom of Information Act Amendments were signed by President Bill Clinton on October 2, 1996.
The Act applies only to federal agencies. However, all of the states, as well as the District of Columbia and some territories, have enacted similar statutes to require disclosures by agencies of the state and of local governments, though some are significantly broader than others. Many combine this with Open Meetings legislation, which requires government meetings to be held publicly."
Once again I have stymied ignorance. You're welcome.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
Guessing:
"Fat Old Politicians"?
"Freaky Omniscient Paladins"?
"Flatulence On Parade"?
"Fallacious Optometrist Propagandists"?
Now how about we sue Mitch Daniels for going against the people and going against hundreds of years of history by forcing us to have DST. >_>
actually, it's "pro bono publico"-- since the adjective (publico) modifies the object (bono) of the preposition (pro), it must agree in case (in this case, ablative).
I might not know a lick about C syntax, but I can certainly remember my Latin....
This isn't the first round between McKillip and Nees. Nees had previously created a documentary film about McKillip entitled Words of Sedition: how the highest levels of power shut down free speech in Kokomo.
You can find more info on this case from when it was filed in this Indianapolis Star article.
You can also read more about it on Nees' personal website.
You can watch Words of Sedition online as well.
funny... I thohgt wilkpedia labled kokomo as a drink!!
Great now there'll be no way to stop Pols from using city generated mail lists for their own purposes. Isn't this what the kid was against in the first place?
I always presumed it was someplace exotic. Like New Jersey.
One thing I noticed on my cross country road trip was that Indiana had the scariest police. You don't want to mess with these boys, doubly so for the highway troopers. Most of them are ex military corn fed midwest country boys. Indiana has its own thing that those who haven't spent any time there have no idea about. It is conservative, it is repressed, there is an eerie feeling that the 50's never left, just the window dressing is different. The only scarier state that I passed through was Wyoming. I got pulled over for speeding and I had to pay the ticket on the spot. In cold cash. The way the fuzz laid it out for me was pay now in cash or spend the night in jail. My bad for hauling ass through there in a 76 Cutlass Supreme with California plates, it might as well have been a red ferrari. Of course I have never ventured below the Mason-Dixon line, but I am sure those that have passed through the deep south have a story or two to tell about the fuzz. Something along the lines of, "Boy, looks like ya got a busted headlight" **crash**......
In this case, as I read it, the kid was trying to get the list in order to compare it to a list that a public official was using for his newsletter. In other words, he wanted to make the comparison in order to see if that public official had made his own electronic copy of the list. Now, while I am concerned as well about the possibility of spammers getting copies of email addresses from the government, I also see the intent here and think that some common sense should be used regarding the intent of his request. Then again, the Mayor's stance on the whole issue does lend some credence to the original theory that the list was misused in the first plance. Just my 2 cents. Art Sexton
Ego, ex mea parte, saluto dominos nostros novos grammaticos!
If this is the sort of list any moron could walk up and request on a floppy disk then what possible misuse of the list could there be?
I don't know about know but as of 1999 indiana had the least educated police force in the US according to thier own statistics. This is becuase they are paid so poorly.
I am sure we have not heard the last of this. It would not surprise me that the mayor would use the city mailing list for personal political gain, and once Ryan has the list in hand, I'm sure he will not be hesitant about making public his findings.
Check out his website for more details about this case, as well as his movie about this administration's other questionable practices. Quite impressive collection, especially for a 16 year old. Reminds me of a young Alex Jones.
Public use of any portable music system is a virtually guaranteed indicator of sociopathic tendencies. -- Zoso
Brian is writing a slogan on a wall, oblivious to the Roman patrol approaching from behind. The slogan is "ROMANES EUNT DOMUS".
...? ...?
... imperative.
...? ... the locative, sir!
..."-MUM". Understand?
Centurion: What's this thing? "ROMANES EUNT DOMUS"? "People called Romanes they go the house?"
Brian: It... it says "Romans go home".
Centurion: No it doesn't. What's Latin for "Roman"?
Brian hesitates
Centurion: Come on, come on!
Brian: (uncertain) "ROMANUS".
Centurion: Goes like?
Brian: "-ANUS".
Centurion: Vocative plural of "-ANUS" is?
Brian: "-ANI".
Centurion: (takes paintbrush from Brian and paints over) "RO-MA-NI". "EUNT"? What is "EUNT"?
Brian: "Go".
Centurion: Conjugate the verb "to go"!
Brian: "IRE". "EO", "IS", "IT", "IMUS", "ITIS", "EUNT".
Centurion: So "EUNT" is
Brian: Third person plural present indicative, "they go".
Centurion: But "Romans, go home!" is an order, so you must use the
He lifts Brian by his short hairs
Brian: The
Centurion: Which is?
Brian: Um, oh, oh, "I", "I"!
Centurion: How many Romans? (pulls harder)
Brian: Plural, plural! "ITE".
Centurion strikes over "EUNT" and paints "ITE" on the wall
Centurion: "I-TE". "DOMUS"? Nominative? "Go home", this is motion towards, isn't it, boy?
Brian: (very anxious) Dative?
Centurion draws his sword and holds it to Brian's throat
Brian: Ahh! No, ablative, ablative, sir. No, the, accusative, accusative, ah, DOMUM, sir.
Centurion: Except that "DOMUS" takes the
Brian:
Centurion: Which is?
Brian: "DOMUM".
Centurion: (satisfied) "DOMUM"...
He strikes out "DOMUS" and writes "DOMUM"
Centurian:
Brian: Yes sir.
Centurion: Now write it down a hundred times.
Brian: Yes sir, thank you sir, hail Caesar, sir.
Centurion: (saluting) Hail Caesar. If it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off.
Brian: (very relieved) Oh thank you sir, thank you sir, hail Caesar and everything, sir!
michael greene
I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!!
Now, git off my lawn!
sudo eat my shorts
City officials turned down Nees, saying the teen could come in and hand-copy the list. Officials said giving out copies of address lists would leave the newsletter subscribers open to spam and computer viruses.
What it sounds like to me is he wanted an electronic version. They said "no, you can come in and hand copy the list yourself, but that's all you get". Which is completely reasonable. I work in local government and it's well known that almost anything we do is public record (very few exceptions). However! We don't just haphazardly give information away. It costs time and money to make information available, so it's generally asked that citizens put forth some effort to narrow down the information they want and go to some effort to get it. Usually there is some sort of processing fee and you have to know specifically what you want. It seems totally reasonable to say "we'll give you the list, but if you are going to use it for some malicious purpose we're going to make it harder for you to spam than cut-paste".
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
I sent a complaint into Barbara Boxers email address and was added to her political email list. No one even read the email because it thanked me for my support. I was complaining of her support of the issue. However since she is a democrat I doubt anyone would call her on this. Democrats are usually given a pass in matters like this.
Here in Sausalito CA the city routinely sends out mails to large groups of people with the while address list in the To: or CC: field - I now have an almost complete list of the politically important folks in town thanks to the incompetence of our city government (and yes I did tell them repeatedly to use Bcc: or get mailing lit software)
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a truck load of tapes
Language learning in my experience, requires a certain "critical mass" before it becomes useful, fun, or amusing. Two semesters of anything is rarely enough.
Add to this the dismal state of language instruction generally, and Latin instruction in particular, in American schools. Most people have almost nothing to show for two semesters of Latin these days: they can't even read or write simple sentences, or have any appreciation for the language, because, frankly, they haven't put enough work in.
This is true for all language learning in America, I think, and for me, particularly appalling when it comes to Spanish (my other language). Standards are so diluted as to be meaningless, and there is no content to language education. Generations of otherwise-bright kids are being doomed to lives of dull monolingualism, with all of its consequences: intolerance, ignorance, and an inability to compete in the global marketplace.
Loads of tax dollars have been transferred from local government to rich lawyers! Let's all celebrate this wonderful outcome!
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
The kid signed up for the city's newsletter and was almost immediately sent spam from the mayor's campaign people. Translated, the mayor (whose name I'll not put up in lights) has free access to the city's mailing list and uses it for personal gain. I think he decided to see if get a copy of the list himself and was denied.
Why should the mayor be allowed to use this list for personal gain but the kid can't? That's why he sued for the info and I expect it's his hope that legislation will get passed to protect that list just like the snailmail addresses are protected by a law that needs to be updated to include email addresses. The kid has a definite past with the mayor. The taxpayers in Kokomo basically paid to make it legal for the mayor to use the city's newsletter list to send everyone on the list spam.
no, it is bekuse of there inbreeding.
Many firms require their associates to engage in a certain amount of pro bono work. Wouldn't want people to think they were a binch of venal ambulance chasers, now.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
I grew up in Kokomo, but I've lived elsewhere on and off for the past couple of years. I clearly remember one week when I was living in Tucson, and this came on CNN Headline News:
.
City pays dog salary to chase ducks
There it is - my small Indiana hometown on national news...for having a dog on it's payroll. A few days later (after my friends stop laughing at me) I'm watching CNN again, and sure enough, my hometown has made 'headline' news twice in the same week:
Mysterious Hum Baffles Citizens and Experts
That's right - the Kokomo Hum
And now...our mayor has been defeated by a 16-year-old in a catfight over email addresses. Sweet land of abundance, thy doors have opened - cast away common sense and embrace thy true valor! Onward to inanity!
The citizen is accusing the mayor of using the city newsletter mailing list for campaign fund-raising. This has not been proven yet, so I am wiling to give the mayor the benefit of the doubt, using the information in TFA. I think that the city's interpretation of the law was reasonable: e-mail addresses should be treated the same as physical mail addresses, and handed out in the same way. A judge decided that since the law mentioned physical mail addresses and not e-mail addresses, e-mail addresses should be treated differently. I think this is a case where laws written before the advent of electronic communcations need to be rewritten. An e-mail address should be treated (from a legal point of view) the same as a physical address in most cases, and in particular in this case.
but the bastard got off (pardon the pun) because he didn't know how to define the word "is". Although that was actually just another instance of his habit of committing perjury.
Not that I really care about moderation or need karma, but what a testament to the idiocy of some moderators when my post is modded down -1 redundant while a nearly identical post posted after mine is modded up insightful. Just another reason I read at -1.
(Special thanks to Tor which allows me to continue posting to Slashdot even after rogue moderation gets me banned.)
audioLibre - freedom of music
Dunno,
Probably the same way that Carl Sagan and John F. Kennedy are still pretentious.
Tim3t3 ph4cuLt4T3m m34m L4ti|\|4m 3l3ct4m
...actually, that looks like it might make a damn good passphrase.
> The city will have to pay not only for the expensive attorneys they hired, but
> may have to compensate the 16 year old's pro-bono counsel.
The "city" does not pay anything, it's the citizens that do.
Administration makes a blunder, residents get punished.
Hmmm, I always felt that way about Ohio, not Indiana.........
Now I know these concepts are very difficult for the information age to understand but this was key to my survival.
Ever canned or frozen vegetables? Well, I have. No other way we could have made it through the winters.
Did you ever have to pick rock and bail hay summer after summer? Did you ever skip school to pour cement or frame houses? Ever have to do this during the day while bussing/waiting/bartending in a restaraunt at night?
Not all of us have had easy lives. My parents weren't making me buy my own food--there really wasn't another choice. I've bought my own clothes most of my life, taught myself how to cut my own hair and haven't ever thought twice about blaming my parents. I know what money really is.
Luckily, the job I work today is lucrative. My parents didn't provide me financial resources. They didn't provide me with contacts to get the perfect job. They didn't even provide me music or the arts. What they did instill on me was a sense of working hard without complaining and knowing that nothing outweighs the value of knowledge. Not even money. Grade school was hard, high school was hard, college was even worse (no garden!) but today I feel like I live like a king even though my idea of a great meal is a can of campbell's Steak and Potato soup with any kind of multi-grain bread. People ask me sometimes if a full time job is hard to juggle with full time grad school. Not at all. Hell, the buildings I work in are air conditioned.
I'm not claiming to have life as hard as The Grapes of Wrath and I don't mean to be preachy. I remember my childhood more as Dandelion Wine or Something Wicked This Way Comes more than anything else. There have been generations of Americans before me that lived off the land and there probably are many more out there that still do. If you think it is so abhoring to live life like that, you're mistaken. Sometimes I miss it so much, I'll most likely find myself an old man living in the middle of nowhere on a plot of land at the end of my life.
Kudos to you for thinking that I deserve "better," but I've never asked for it and I never would.
My work here is dung.
This ruling basically stated that an existing law wherein the city can keep snail-mail addresses confidential does not cover e-mail addresses. Is this not the exact opposite of what we on ./ typically preach? We typically advocate that the courts and legislature not make a big deal about cyberspace issues that are covered by existing laws; rather, we prefer they apply existing law? Right?
In this case, the court said e-mail addresses were not covered by the confidentiality rules. So, now, with this precedent; what a can of worms.
But wouldn't that be m1111\/m rather than m34m?
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Takes one to know one, apparently.
Check out this story and see how a guy's on death row for protecting himself in his own home from a local cop's son. Yes, that's on the Fox News website, not exactly a liberal organization. We should all be afraid of this abuse of authority.
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
...he'll laugh you to death.
There is a law protecting the mailing addresses of city employees. Kokomo denied a request for e-mail addresses based on this law. The judge found that e-mail addresses were not covered by that law. In other words, what isn't legal in normal post-mail isn't necessarily illegal in e-mail.
I'm not quite sure what the repercussions will be, but this certainly will make for a more complicated system in Indiana.
You're not alone. Don't worry, be happy.
The booze doesn't seem to be working.
Have you tried red, red wine?
Dammit, if I'm gonna suffer, some of you will have to suffer along with me :)
it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
Not only do I live in Kokomo, this kid is my best friend. I sit next to him in Chemistry and at lunch.
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -Carl Sagan, "Cosmos"
I don't want Fop, goddamn it! I'm a Dapper Dan man!
---GEC
I'm but the humble pupil, seeking to snatch the scratchbuilt pebble from the master's fully articulated hand
I'm glad to see that this has sparked such interest. I'll try to respond to some of your comments here... First, my attorney essentially put up the capital to take on the case. It wasn't entirely pro bono, per se, because Indiana has special laws about cases involving the Access to Public Records Act. In 1998, our Governor established the Office of the Public Access Counselor, which was billed as a kind of watchdog organization for members of the public and their questions about access. When I was initially denied my request, I filed a formal complaint with the PAC office; they issued an opinion in my favor. However, the office has no binding capability, and the city continued to ignore that decision. If a citizen does take the denying agency to court and wins, after obtaining a favorable opinion from the PAC which was disregarded, said denying agency must pay the citizen's legal bills. That's the only "tooth" that the Legislature built into the PAC law. I couldn't afford to put up the thousands of dollars needed to take the case to court (even though I knew I'd ultimately get it back), so an attorney from Indianapolis contacted me to take the case. As a matter of public policy, I've thought all along that e-mail addresses should be exempted from the APRA. This case was not about me wanting the e-mails for any use...it was all about enforcing the law as it's written. Having said that, I'm very pleased that the attention this case has garnered has led to lawmakers at the Statehouse amending the APRA so that e-mail addresses would not have to be disseminated by government agencies. So ultimately (and it would have likely not happened if it weren't for this case), that loophole will be closed. When I received the campaign e-mails from the mayor--after signing up for the city-related list--I contacted the Indiana Elections Division, thinking that he might be breaking the law, using city resources for his reelection campaign. I was told to fear not, as the e-mails were merely public record, and McKillip would have equal rights to access them as anyone else. That's the reason I filed the request in the first place...just to test the theory. When the city continued to stonewall my request, despite the law being so clearly out of their favor, I filed suit. Simply because McKillip disagreed with the law did NOT mean he could flagrantly break it. I think that probably covers most of the common questions. I'll try to monitor the thread and respond to whatever thoughts you have. And don't hesitate to contact me through my website (which has a pretty detailed accounting of all of this as well), RyanNees.com.
It sounds like a sedated microcosm of the Bush/Cheney consortium, where a new travesty is bemoaned every day without anyone taking action.
Bahamas - check.
Pretty mamas - i'm a geek; I can only dream
Key Largo - check
Montego - check
Wait a minute... Kokomo is in Indiana? I feel like I've been ripped off!
I know my tax dollars are paying the legal bills in this case, but I am fine with it! I would much rather my money go towards blocking a mayor I do not support solicate me to vote for him than to pay for the half million dollar round-a-bouts the mayor wants to place in unneccessary intersections. Ryan may have done this in an unconventional way, but in the end it will accomplish what he set out to do. Keep up the good work kid!