Slashdot Mirror
Tech Workers in Higher Demand
mjdroner writes "CNN has a story on an employment consulting firm report showing job cuts in the tech sector are down 40 percent." From the article: "Despite the inevitable job-cutting that typically follows mergers, the job market picture for the nation's tech workers is definitely improving. Many job seekers in high-demand fields such as storage systems administration and information security are probably finding themselves in the driver's seat when it comes to negotiating employment terms"
So this "good news" is that people are getting laid off at a slightly lower rate?
Despite the inevitable job-cutting that typically follows mergers, the job market picture for the nation's tech workers is definitely improving.
After the rain comes sunshine. News at 11...
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
"job cuts in the tech sector are down 40 percent." Great statistic! Now what on earth does it mean for the actual amount of jobs? And job seekers?
This sort of statistic sound like it might be due to the increase in growth not slowing down as fast...
In other words; hard, useless, figures.
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
I suppose "slightly less doom" in the world is reason to celebrate too.
"Ahh.. but he's only stabbing me in *ONE* eye with an icepick now!"
meh
lets just hope its still that way when I get out of college in 5 or so years
:) )
(That's right, I'm in highschool - hold you flames please
Shouldn't the headline read "Tech Workers in Lower lack of Demand"?
Many consulting and defense firms have been hiring tech workers non-stop for a long time now. Especially in the D.C. Metro area.
A relentless stream of "IT is great" news... yet a lot of folks I know are struggling (I'm doing okay but worry if I lost my current position).
So I just don't believe this news and I think there is some kind of agenda behind it. Perhaps the big IT companies want to head things off because they finally see a big crunch is coming and they are going to need skilled IT people again.
I would love to see things turn good again in this field but I'm not seeing it at the ground level yet (10+ years experience-- in the South).
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
How does 'decrease in job cuts' equal 'higher demand for IT workers'? That's like saying I've gone from spending £10,000 more than I earn a month to spending only £5,000 more a month so obviously my savings are getting better.
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
saying "they're cutting medicare!!" because they are increasing spending by 7% instead of 9%..
The fact that they're being laid off at simply a slower rate doesn't make me feel like they're in higher demand. It could just as easily mean that they've run out of people to lay off.
Job cuts are down by 40% but that still means jobs were cut which still means that there is less employment.
Our fantastic contributors are not the only people that are this stupid. The same trick is used to manipulate national debt news. There is a diffierence between debt and deficit. When the deficit decreases then the government crows about having control of debt. Not so. Deficit is the amount that the debt grows by. Therefore even if the deficit reduces, the debt is still increasing.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I graduated from a top CS program Spring 2005 and landed a 25K job in Central Pennsylvania...should I move?
I wonder if they count people getting cut for reading slashdot instead of doing their job?
I've run my IT consulting business now for almost 20 years, a succesful business in the Midwest that has extended past. We ignored the dotcom boom (and bust), we grew slowly but surely, and we focus on showing our customers a profitable return on every investment they make in us.
We can't find good workers. I've interviewed repeatedly and found the new talent is terrible -- it seems that has technology becomes more "known," the amount of GOOD talent is dropping. I've interviewed some people from top colleges that just don't know their way around a business at all, and I have no desire to train them in exchange for a high 5 figure salary.
The only way I seem to find valuable employees is by picking up the real outcasts from the larger consulting firm -- outcasts that have great insight and work ethic but are too far outside the box to fit in any MBA-run company. Every time a consulting group goes under, the same morons get new jobs with the next company that won't exist in 10 years.
For those in the same position, what are you doing for hiring? I don't see talent coming out of college and moving to the Midwest (a very profitable IT sector), most are instead moving to the west coast, taking a big salaried job, and finding themselves stuck in a very expensive area where the high salary doesn't seem to overcome the overhead of living there (stress, costs, traffic). I'd love to find a resource for good employees, but I guess the answer is right there: good employees don't get fired. The balance between efficiency and knowledge and salary is not something I worry about -- if my customers realize a gain on the money they spend on us, I have no problem paying the person right. For those who know, most of my employees work at minimum wage with a large project bonus (up to 80%), and I have enough people looking to work for us that it isn't the pay structure that isn't helping me find good help.
Also, it seems that many people going to college for computer science/engineering aren't even learning the basics -- what colleges have you recent graduates gone to that have taught you real consulting skills, business sense and responsibility?
"Some businesses may in fact regret some of the job cuts they made in recent years, which, in retrospect, may have been too deep. Recent surveys suggest that employers are having an increasingly difficult time finding information technology workers."
t ake-me-back phone call from my ex-manager?
So can I be expecting a late night, drunken I'm-so-sorry-I-broke-up-with-you-will-you-please-
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
I know this because I watch television. In it, they say they IT jobs are in high demand, and all I need is this certificate in order to get a yacht like the guy on the tv. So, this is true.
now when will someone hire me?
If we upgrade technology... we MIGHT need people who know how to utilize that technology. So hire for the install and setup... fire... then rehire for maintinence!
FTFA, "Some businesses may in fact regret some of the job cuts they made in recent years, which, in retrospect, may have been too deep. Recent surveys suggest that employers are having an increasingly difficult time finding information technology (IT) workers."
I was laid off in the fall of 2004 because it was determined that the company could outsource our System Admins and Database Admins to a domestic contractor and co-locate to save a couple bucks in the long run. (You can convince any executive to do anything, BTW, if you have a good PowerPoint ROI chart, laser pointer, and $800 suit).
Long story short, the fine print in the contract stated that only 2 major systems would be outsourced (which amounted to about 40% of the total workload), and after everyone was laid off, the contractor says, "Now... You know that we're not going to handle email, NAS, web services, and other misc systems, correct?"
Needless to say, they're now locked into a 5 year multi-million dollar contract, AND have hired back new system admins to replace the layoffs. I'm not bitter... But it still makes me smile anyway... =)
As my own consulting / repair business (finally) picks up, I'm planning on going with people I can trust. Granted, that's only a very few people, and it won't get me far... But a lot of the people that 'aren't getting fired' that you want are probably rather unhappy with their current jobs.
So I guess the answer is where it started. Network, network, network. I don't do enough of that really, myself.
I am a science fantasy fan
Seeing a reduction in the number of people fired in no way translates to "tech workers" being in "hot demand".
I guess my follow-up question is this:
What's the current trend in hiring?
That's great if cuts have slowed, but I'd like to know if that means the net number of jobs is increasing
"We can't find good workers. I've interviewed repeatedly and found the new talent is terrible -- it seems that has technology becomes more "known," the amount of GOOD talent is dropping. I've interviewed some people from top colleges that just don't know their way around a business at all, and I have no desire to train them in exchange for a high 5 figure salary."
That can't be. According to the last slashdot story all the "kruft" has already left for nursing.
"I don't see talent coming out of college and moving to the Midwest (a very profitable IT sector), most are instead moving to the west coast, taking a big salaried job, and finding themselves stuck in a very expensive area where the high salary doesn't seem to overcome the overhead of living there (stress, costs, traffic)."
Proably because the Midwest is as exciting as watching paint dry.
"Also, it seems that many people going to college for computer science/engineering aren't even learning the basics -- what colleges have you recent graduates gone to that have taught you real consulting skills, business sense and responsibility?"
I'm still waiting for the education I already paid for to generate good results.
Contrary to the OP's headline (and to the original article's headline, surprisingly), the article's text show that there is no "Higher Demand" for workers - indeed there is lower demand. And the projection is that the demand for IT workers will decline even further. There is no projection as to when the decline will level out (cease).
It is the responsibility of the tech worker to keep his skill set up. Technology itself is not going to disappear tomorrow. There will always be opportunities to provide this service if one has a current skill set.
As an American company, we work with Indian companies all the time. Although they can often compete on cost they do have issues:
a) They are thousands of miles away.
b) Most of them are asleep when we are awake (turn around time).
c) Requirements can get lost in translation- even English to English.
We like the quality of work product we receive, but there will always be more work to do.
Further, do not believe the media hype OR anti-hype about the economy. The job of the media is to keep YOU tuned in. Happy news is fine but most people tune in for the fear factor. That's why 90 percent of the news is negative. So do not buy into it. Just keep your skill set up and be open to the idea of new job opportunities.
The question is: do you want to go for the gusto or spend your time creating the TPS reports?
- a little cult movie lingo there
Cogito Ergo Sum
We've been sitting on two open positions for going on 2 months now looking for qualified developers. Hell one seat is entry level! The other is mid level.
Outsourcing FUD be damned, we have the positions and I could really use some help here!
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
CS majors average starting salary dropped 2% according to CNNMoney
The smartest man in the whole, wide world really don't know that much. - Mose Allison
lol. you've never even seen a college CS curriculum, have you? i'm doubting if you even went to a US college if you expect people to come out of them with usable job skills in IT, much less those particular skillsets. here's all the business sense i have (and which you seem to forget) compressed into five words:
"fast, good, cheap: pick 2".
if you want employees that are "good" and "cheap" from a technical perspective, you're going to have to train them on soft skills, which doesn't happen overnight. sorry. logic's a bitch...
Is an average where they take the large count of really slow to move large company salaries and lump them in with the small count of little companies now kicking their ass in the marketplace and divide by the totals?
Some of the up and comming little guys are doing well whilst the larger, slow moving guys are revamping mission statements
woo-hoo! Is America great or what?!
Cogito Ergo Sum
Try Huntsville, AL (mostly defense but we got some biotech and other firms). Try Silicon Valley. Theres plenty of tech places hiring if you take the initiative and look.
Too many tech workers have been saying "poor me" since the dot-com bubble burst. Too many tech workers aren't willing to move away from their town of 20k in search of a better life. I know kids fresh out of college pulling down close to 60k working IT and related fields. They were willing to do a little research and they got one hell of a reward.
Living near Pittsburgh, PA I can honestly say that tech. is non-existant. The jobs are far and few between, pay terribly, and the number of tech folks looking to grab any job at all (even at large pay cuts) is staggering.
Outsourcing smaller tech depts to consultants and firms set up to do just that is all the rage, which just cripples the market even more. I know this isn't the hub of technology, but when you graduate #2 from Penn State with a 4.0, have 8 years of experience, glowing references, and still have an impossible time finding employment something is wrong.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
That way, we can what you're having a problem finding.
I don't beleive you that you're having a problem finding the talent that you need and I don't beleive you that people coming out of school don't measure up. I think your "standards" are unreasonable.
Do you demand that your programmers have an engineering degree to write business apps? Or a MSCS?
Do you look at the resumes directly or do have a clueless HR person "screening" the resumes?
Are you offering a competitive wage? Or in your case, is your bonus system fair? (I've seen bonus systems that dry up when it's time to get paid - even though the boss says I deserved it.)
I think if you look at your hiring proactices a little more carefully, you'll see that there's something wrong on your end. There's so much talent out there that's having problems because of unreasonable requirements. If you want a developer with the needed business kowledge, you're going to have to steal him and pay him BIG bucks to move out to the Midwest. I for one, will not work in a one shop town. Been there, done that, and got fucked.
So they're giving less people the axe. Is there any hiring going on?
0 91616 - my last post on this
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=182579&cid=15
But in the best of times, the demand for those workers exceeds the supply so those job cuts translate to changes of employer.Yes, it might not be for your job. It might not be something you're qualified to do. But somewhere, someone is hiring. Burger flipping and prostitution seem popular.That's what I said.
The hole has gotten smaller, but there is still a hole. That is not "hot demand".That's great. Of course, TFA kind of contradicts that.
If hiring is picking up, why are companies still laying off the employees?If by "good news" you mean
"We have good news! The cancer will only take both your legs right now and kill you in about 20 years."
As opposed to:
"I have good news! I won the lottery!"
I guess it all comes down to what you want to define as "good news".
Which is why I chose to illustrate the point with my "executions" example. Everything is positive
But that's just a semantic game. What really matters is the human cost. And that shows that, even though things aren't as bad as they were before, they are still bad and people are still losing their jobs.
Customers care about results. If they guy of the boat can't speak english, can't interpret requirements, and doesn't know the clients business it won't matter that he works for $2 per hour.
Cogito Ergo Sum
"So just what am I supposed to do in front of this computer all day then?"
Wank to Sir Mix-A-Lot's tune "Baby Got Back".
I have agree. Most colleges teach computer science and/or computer engineering. These are NOT Information Technology worker degrees.
Many areas are now offering degrees in Information Technology and/or Software Engineering. Maybe these are the types of grads you should be recruiting?
Jobs are being cut because there is excess supply. Actual employment does not respond immediately to changes in demand, if demand fell by 50% overnight, the surplus would last for several years, and there would be cuts lasting for several years.
If after demand dropped 50%, it later increased back to 60% of the original value (so indeed, demand did increase) there is still a surplus, and jobs would continue to be cut, but at a reduced rate. Jobs will not stop being cut until either
1) actual employement falls to the level of actual demand
2) actual demand increases to the level of employment
3) some combination of the 1 and 2
But the fact that there is still a gap does not mean that demand isn't increasing.
This is not the same as "cuts" in medicare etc, which are just cuts in the rate of growth, but an actual increase in demand. Its just that the employement level is sticky.
Wouldn't this start to happen as the number of available jobs to cut decreases because of all the cutting?
Speak truth to power.
This is something that has been of great concern to me and I would appreciate any and all follow up comments on the matter.
I work now as a Sys Admin, and have been working as a Sys Admin since '98. Until about 3 or 4 years ago... I enjoyed a stable job at a decent wage... but now I am working for scraps, for chump change... and I have concluded that I must get my degree because no one respects my nearly 10 years of experience and flawless work ethic as much as a degree. So, I am in the process of going to school and have a couple years to go to obtain my BS in CS.
My dilemma is, I am paying my own way here and the cost out of my pocket to complete the program will be around $40k, all told. Will it be worth it? I mean, will I really be making an acceptable wage when I finally grad? Current trends are mildly alarming. What do you guys think?
I graduated in Decemeber with a BSCS, and I started looking for a job in mid-March. I live in San Francisco, so I can work anywhere in the Bay Area or Silicon valley. All I did was post my resume on craigslist and monster, and, during a two week period, I received 25 calls and several emails from employers. Some employers even offered to pay me to come in and interview. The job market right now is crazy.
If you are in Silicon Valley, and you know your stuff, $70K should be the lowest salary you should accept as a new college graduate.
Everything is positive ... if you start from a sufficiently negative point of view.
Exactly. Last year companies like IBM and HP were laying off tens of thousands of employees at a time.
Last Friday, the big news was that college graduates were getting offered more money, except CS grads who were offered 0.8% less than last year's CS grads. If wages are going down, then the demand for labor is going down. For all of you without business degrees, that means there are MORE CS grads than there are jobs.
All this media hype over "highly demanded" IT workers is a bunch of bunk. It's all about making the excuse for more cheap H1-B labor.
Of course, I pay for it, too.
I'm an oldschool technie who realized he'd better figure out this business stuff, fast. We do custom embedded linux work, board-level up, MCUs, etc etc. We're booked. Solid. Yet I get stuff done with low overhead.
What did I do?
I walk the walk. I know good people are easily 100x more productive than average. I know some good people from all my days in the trenches (hi guys). When I want things done, I package it up, and send it off with a big cheque. I don't care where, when, or how.. we work online. I live in the middle of nowhere, handy an airport. That's all that's required to do business.
If one of the guys I work with is doing 10x the work - I'll actually give him 10x the pay!
It doesn't work for all business, but it is working, and I am growing clients and profit.
Something to think about if you "can't get people to relocate" - my advice - make teleconf and virtual offices work for you. Hire the best people available no matter where they are. Reap the rewards.
..don't panic
... until I can get paid $500k per year for writing HTML.
... is definitely .net.
.net, which was a problem since I had switched the company from classic asp to PHP over the past 3 years or so.
.net exclusively.
.net and is tired of turning down php work because all of the programmers are overbooked. I was able to jump in and do both kinds of work, so I took the job at the tiny shop.
.net jobs here in DC Metro, there is a lot of Java, but I am very worried about the morons that are doing the recruiting. I actually had a recruiter hand me a job description that had three bold bullets with mandatory Java skills, and he was still trying to con me into applying for the job.
.net people were advertising pretty much right on the median for the salary surveys for the area.
I got advance notice in late January that I would be laid off 3/31. Went into panic mode, started looking and all I could find was
For every call I got about php I got 20 for asp.net. I even learned that one of the biggest recruiting companies in the Washington DC Metro now recruits for
After two months, my number came up and I got laid off effectively 3/31. I got two offers on 3/31, one to work like an animal in a php/Oracle shop for a huge company, one to work like an animal in a tiny shop that only does
Apart from the near saturation of
Another problem I saw with the very limited supply of php jobs is that the people that are hiring are absolutely disconnected from the salary curves for this market. They want you to have 10 years of experience in C, C++, PHP, Ansi SQL, JSP, HTML, CSS, XML, etc. then they want to hire you for $50K or less. And they get offended when you laugh in their faces. I noticed this is only a problem with the open source type jobs, the
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
Every so often, when the tech sector's job market starts to look good for you, the potential laborer, tech businesses start releasing statistics. These statistics say "OMGZ! There's a labor shortage! We need more programmers and IT people! We simply can't get enough of them!".
This isn't exactly the truth. Demand for tech people has increased, but not that drastically. However, by screaming "labor shortage" everytime the demand for tech jobs grows, businesses convince a whole lot of people to go into the field. Then, in 4 or 5 years, there's a huge supply of tech laborers. This drives down the cost of labor (read: YOUR SALARY) for tech businesses. People realize the jobs aren't really there, drop out of the market, and then the businesses start screaming "labor shortage" again.
So the moral of the story is: Study what you like. Don't just pick the latest hot job.
Of course this is a shameless plug, but you can rate your recruiter and identify job board spam at http://recruiter-rater.zhrodague.net./
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
I know this isn't the hub of technology, but when you [have a lot going for you], and still have an impossible time finding employment something is wrong.
ARRRGH! Would you move already?!
I used to live near the Burgh, and while the city has a lot to recommend, a robust job market (of any kind) is not one of them. And it hasn't been that way for over twenty years!
Sure, the cost of living is dirt cheap, but the jobs just aren't happening. The place is rapidly turning into Alabama North. (Especially outside the city. Each year it looks more and more like wherever Larry the Cable Guy grew up).
And everyone I know who lives there still just bitches about how things are falling apart. Now, they don't do anything about this, mind you..
Get over it. Ain't no money to be found there. Just ask Mario Lemieux.
And I'm sure if you looked outside the box known as Western Pee-Ay, you'd find quite a few places that would like to have you around. They may be in more expensive areas of the country (Bay Area, NoVa, Raleigh/Durham), or not (most of Texas), but I think having an income might just offset the homesickness, no?
To reiterate: Move.
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
I recently had to find a job in the bay area. I have a Computer Engineering degree and about 3 years of experience. Within two weeks of starting my search I had solid leads at seven different companies. In the end, three made me offers. Within one month of starting my search I started work at my new company. And, now that I'm here we've got two open positions that we've been trying to fill for months.
The tech sector job market is definitely getting tight, at least in the Bay Area. Econ 101 tells me that this should cause salaries to go up, but I'm not holding my breath.
you see a mysterious agenda manipulating reality via unseen forces
i've often found that people who believe in conspiracy theories have a number of cognitive handicaps, handicaps that might also mean you're not a very good it guy
dude, there is no illuminati
try to cope with reality without explaining the unknowns at work in your world to be an all-encompassing "them" out to get you
or, you can ignore my words
because clearly, i am part of the sinister dark hand keeping you down
(snicker)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
That's odd. Having just moved to part of the midwest [for aforementioned cheaper cost of living] and done some job hunting, it seems like hiring managers wouldn't know good talent if it slapped them across the face. No phone screens. The most elementary of technical and business interviews. Even the secretaries out in Silicon Valley had to go through a more rigorous evaluation than what I've seen in the midwest.
Individual circumstances vary, but going straight to grad school often isn't cheaper in the long run. You're giving up 2 years of earnings (plus raises) and you have to pay for school yourself.
If you're only going as far as a Master's, consider working and having your employer pay for grad school. It's not easy, and it will take longer to finish your degree. But the real-life work experience will give you a new perspective towards your studies that full-time students will miss out on.
Don't procrastinate starting grad school after starting work though. Most people who "take a semester off" never get started. And voice of experience here, try especially hard to finish your degree before having kids.
The parent was dead on about quitting work and paying for grad school with retirement savings. This almost never pays off in the long run.
...the emphasis on "skill sets" and not on whether you can think and learn.
"Does your skill set include J2EE? No, just Java?"
Click. Phone goes dead, you never hear from that recruiter again.
"Does your skill set include XYZ?"
I'm so sick of this nonsense. The problem, as I see it, is several-fold:
- Recruiters who want the immediate "sell" to get their finder's fee: they only want that person with experience in the exact buzzword they see in front of them
- Employers who don't want to give an intelligent, experienced, agile person the couple of months to learn the new technology flavor-of-the-month
- Employers who think coders are people who simply bang on the keyboard and, if they could train a cat to do the same, they would do so. They don't understand that it takes either education or experience (and likely both) to create code that is efficient, thread-safe, maintainable, etc. Cats can't do this--intelligent, experienced, educated software developers can.
- Employers who have an immediate crisis (hmm...how did they let that happen to begin with?) and want someone they can immediately drop into the meat grinder. When you hear "off to a running start" from one of these, beware.
- Recruiters and employers who don't understant that computer science concepts span languages and technologies and that someone who has grasped them in one implementation of computer science (read: technology) can apply them in another if only given a chance to learn the details (language, API, etc.)
Non-developers are too focused on buzzwords and not on software. What makes software good software goes way beyond particular languages or API's. There are far more workers who can satisfy employers' needs; for some reason they simply won't use them.
Makes you mad, though, that they didn't just hire you on, and increase your budget. I hate salespeople that wedge themselves between the employees and the DM.
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
"I know this isn't the hub of technology, but when you graduate #2 from Penn State with a 4.0, have 8 years of experience, glowing references, and still have an impossible time finding employment something is wrong."
So we have 3 factors here:
1) School
2) Experience
3) Location
4) Person
That's not quite right, but follow along.
1) School - no problem. Major university. Well respected. Check! Just be careful you don't talk about that GPA any more. With 8 years of experience, your GPA is officially irrelevant. Pretend like you got a 2.0 GPA when you go into an interview.
2) Experience - 8 years is a sweet spot. You're not senior yet, you're mid-level, so you're cheap. BUT. What is that experience in? So on a scale of 1-5, you're likely a "3" in this department.
3) Location - if Pittsburgh doesn't have jobs, then move. D.C. has tons of jobs and its 1/2 a day's car ride away.
4) Person - this is intertwined with your experience, but if you choose to work doing Eiffel development on Linux for a weather forcasting consultantcy, it means (a) you have no experience in things that matter (b) you make poor choices in your career. Also, you may come across as a bit of an idiot in an interview. Finally, the fact that you won't move tells me you're not serious about a job.
I went to Penn State and I got a degree in C.S. (this was in the late 70's so perhaps things have changed), so use that logic training. Where is the problem likely to be. Almost certainly the answer is staring you in the mirror. No offense. You're the problem. And I mean that in a constructive way in that I hope you get a better job than me and make a million dollars. But as long as you sit in Pittsburgh with no job, whining about the lack of tech jobs, then I predict you will never get a job and you will stay in your parent's basement.
Same to you, and you're welcome.
employees.
why am i not surprised *you* have a tough time finding talent? you transfer business risks onto your employees and you shelter your income by taking dividends instead of wages.
business owners are supposed ot have higher risk and reward.
you offload your risk onto minimum wage employees and *still* want 100% control of the reward. that's incredibly selfish. i'd have to wonder what other processes you have in mind to shift risk toward me and reward towards you that you don't have to legally tell me about.
most people don't feel like working for people who would do that to others. the folks that show up at your shop obviously don't know better... hence the lack of business skills.
who's going to move to your area on minimum wage and *huge* business risk without the upside of business ownership and reward?
nobody with any sense, that's who. perhaps if someone knew you and was able to trust you. but a stranger? fah-getta-boutit.
i'm sure blaming everyone else but yourself is soothing to the soul - but the problem likely won't go away anytime soon due to the reasons outlined above.
Again, individual circumstances will vary. I am about to graduate with a MS in computer science. I went in to my graduate degree straight out of college. I have not had to pay for any of my grad program because grants and scholarships covered it. There tends to be a lot of money for grad students. The two years earning is offset by assistantships ($13,200 a year in my case) and the initial starting offer ($45,000 for undergrad and $60,000-$70,000 in my case).
My sister got her doctorate a few years ago when she was pregnant with her second child. I think it worked for her since nobody in their right mind messes around with the Angry Pregnant Lady. At least not more then once.
The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow
www.fuckedcompany.com is literally fu*ked as it relies on bad news from companies esp. in IT.
Actually I've never put a call out for help -- we get many referals from people we've worked with in the industries we're in (mainly high-rise contracting and large scale buildouts), and the people who come to interview are the ones who know how the shop is run.
I retain 100% control of the projects and the customers, but the employees make more money than me. I'm probably in the middle of the pack when it comes to earnings, and I'm very focused on staying that way if not declining over time and exiting the business entirely.
There is nothing wrong with the way I do business, and I think it is a success considering that all my employees own 80%+ of their homes, own all their cars without leases or loans, and have a very solid savings plan. The other upside is most of them have tons of time to spend with their kids or their friends or vacationing, I don't believe in anyone working much more than 1000-1500 hours a year top. Efficiency comes with less hours but more work accomplished.
is not a zero sum game. if you had a better understanding of economics, you would understand that there are not simply X jobs to be divied up between outsource and insource. rather, there is simply only the search for efficiency, and this impulse actually leads to more jobs in the long run and more riches for everyone.
seriously, no hidden agenda, capische?
but if you and other simpletons continue to think about and talk about the problem as simply "there are 100 jobs, and 50 go to india to day, and 80 will go to india tomorrow, leaving us only 20 jobs left tomorrow" then the sum total of your contribution to solving the "problem" you involve yourself in is to simply demonstrate how ignorant people can be of something they care deeply about
believe it or not, the more jobs they outsource to india, the more jobs there will be for americans, that pay more
i leave it to your boundless imagination as to how and why i think that way, and why protectionism is for self-defeating retards
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
There's your problem, despite your claims to the contrary. Workers are risk-averse about their paycheck and they are guaranteed only minimum wage if they work for you!
You've got a weird salary structure - be thankful you get any applicants. Your companies growth is stunted by your stubborn refusal to "be normal". But apparently you're in denial.
The article is clearly stating that the number of jobs is decreasing. Just thought you'd like that question answered.
...that "VB.Net" and "developer" don't belong in the same sentence together.
Try and apply at Mellon Financial. I am a recent grad from Pitt and I got a job doing IT at Mellon. They are a good company and they do all kinds of fun IT stuff: mainframe, n-tier\distributed (J2EE Websphere mainly) and some Microsoft desktop\n-tier (just got a .NET\Windows Server environment, use VB 6 alot still). However, they are demanding on their IT hires for the good jobs. The want business savy IT people and soft skills are critical. The pay is really good, though.
I'm curious what your degree was in CS or IT? A 4.0 in either is impressive, but CS degree holders(my degree also) are known to have problems getting jobs at non-IT companies (Mellon included) because we dont seem to get many skills that IT shops need right out of the box. However, IT undergrad degree programs are also known to be weak on the technical background. To quote my manager: "what I need from the undergraduate college system is a IT\CS\Business hybrid degree program."
The only reason why I got the Mellon job right out of school is that I happen to interview as a sophomore and I found out what a lot of the industry is looking for (none of which I learned directly in CS, but I had to learn on my own). Here is a list for everyone's benefit. Note that this list applies outside Mellon very easily from what I have read.
Overall, I found my CS degree to be a good base for learning the above IT stuff, but I stayed back an extra semester to get a business undergrad in finance. I must say that it has helped on the job a lot and I recommend a business dual/double degree to any students still in college. I found that it was a good way to eat up my elective credits with something productive.
Good luck and let me know if you apply!
Mike
P.S. you might also do well to try Alcoa, PNC, Highmark or PPG.
Considering the high demand and supposed lack of supply (everyone's whining that they can't find programmers these days, for example), why hasn't this affected starting salaries significantly?
IIT = Illinois Institute of Technology
It is not a technical school, but rather a highly regarded engineering school. Don't confuse it with ITT Tech please.
-Alumn
and yet i still wholeheartedly support it
;-P
why?
because there's simply nothing better
in other words, people rail against nike sweatshops in indonesia. ok, fine. so what's your superior solution?
the problem is that getting rid of the nike sweatshop does not mean the slave labor workers are suddenly released from their shackles into a beautiful egalitarian world of middle class bohemian western lifestyle
no, rather they go and starve on the streets. so if the choice is between slave labor and starving, they, you and i would choose the slave labor in the blink of an eye
see the real problem now?
so please: i applaud those who decry slave labor in the third world. but please recognize reality: to properly destroy the slave labor conditions YOU HAVE TO PROPOSE A SUPERIOR SOLUTION
it's the difference between positive criticism and negative criticism
because a lot of people are empty idealists: they criticize the negative evils they see in this world
yeah! good for them! do you know how fucking easy that is to do? "that is bad, this is bad, boo hiss" do you know you fucking obvious and useless it is to just say these empty words that everyone ALREADY KNOWS?
omg! some stupid 20 year old rich western college student prick just told me slave labor is bad! oh my god! what a thunderbolt! I NEVER REALIZED THAT BEFORE! how could i miss that!? where would i be in this world without idealistic rich western simpletons!?
but if these empty headed shallow idealists would like to take a healthy dose of reality for once, and realize that in this world, solving problems is actually a game of choosing between two negatives, only one slightly worse than the other, in order to pursue progress, the slow, backbreaking thing progress really is, then maybe all of their criticism WOULD ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING FOR ONCE
and when i say positive criticism with positive alternatives, i am talking REALISTIC positive alternatives. you know, like respecting the countries invovled? you can't march into foregin countries and dictate to them how to run their countries, right? and yet these same idealistic retarded simpletons act like these companies control all of the cards. um, no. the source of the real problem? not some evil multimational corporation. it's the LOCAL CORRUPT ASSHOLES. and if you cricize the local corrupt assholes? what do you hear from them? "ARROGANT IMPERIALISTIC NEOCOLONIAL PATRONIZING WESTERNER!"
see how the problem is a little more complicated than you simpletons suggest yet?
saying "slave labor is wrong" is easy, useless, and obvious. yeah, clap clap, clap! you win the prize! you're a simple minded retard, you can regurgitate what everyone knows already!
saying "slave labor is wrong, and here is my solution XYZ to remove it" is HARD
so welcome to reality. now try to say something useful, not regurgitate the obvious and think you're actually contributing to solving any problems in this world
my solution? LET PEOPLE HAVE THEIR JOBS. LET MULITNATIONALS BUILD FACTORIES IN THE THIRD WORLD. then WORK with the slave labor employers and force them improve work conditions, and insist third world countries show more transparency, so we know any money is going to the actual poor people, rather than building the next edition on the warlord's villa
i know, it's mundane, simple, slow steps. it lacks revolutionary zeal. except revolutions often just lead to a lot burned buildings, and less work for everyone involved
my solution is slow, unsexy, and uncool. but i'd like you to propose something better
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
More hype to try to convince more people to get into IT, so they can buy software, computers, gadgets and to help make sure the employment market stays flooded with competition so wages stay down.
Still waiting for one of the talking heads to get on tv and spew forth something along the lines of 'hmm, maybe those tax cuts weren't such a bad idea after all'.
I posted this comment as a reply deep in the thread, but I wanted to open it up for more discussion.
.NET\Windows Server environment, use VB 6 alot still). However, they are demanding on their IT hires for the good jobs. The want business savy IT people and soft skills are critical. The pay is really good, though.
I am a recent grad (less than 4 four months) and I got a job doing IT for a financial services company. They are a good company and they do all kinds of fun IT stuff: mainframe, n-tier\distributed (J2EE Websphere mainly) and some Microsoft desktop\n-tier (just got a
CS was my primary major in college. The only reason why I got my job right out of school is that I happen to interview with the same company as a sophomore and I found out what a lot of the industry is looking for (none of which I learned directly in CS, but I had to learn on my own). Here is a list for everyone's benefit. Note that this list applies outside my company very easily from what I have read:
* business/soft skills
* software engineering
* software architecture
* OOAD and UML
* software process/process improvement (CMM)
* n-tier systems design, development, testing - J2EE/.NET are dominant, but the LAMP stack is also used
* software project management/project management in general
* computer/internet/information security
* data mining/data warehousing/business intelligence
Overall, I found my CS degree to be a good base for learning the above IT stuff, but I delayed my graduation an extra semester to get a business undergrad in finance. I must say that it has helped on the job a lot and I recommend a business dual/double degree to any students still in college. I found that it was a good way to eat up my elective credits with something productive.
I also recommend internships heavliy. I had three total, two paid and one for credit. I was able to get two years experience before even getting out of school. I know none of this helps people who are mid-career, but I wanted to share it with college students.
So now my question to the community:
CS degree holders are thought to have problems getting jobs at non-IT companies (my company included) because we dont seem to get many skills that people need right out of the box. However, IT undergrad degree programs are also sometimes considered to be weak on the technical background. To quote my manager: "what I need from the undergraduate college system is a IT\CS\Business hybrid degree program."
So is the college system failing undergrad students or are companies demanding too much? I think both, but I want other thoughts. I feel that if there was an undergrad program that focused on the above topics on my list + a required internship + some business classes, all undergrads would be better prepared.
Let me know what you think,
Mike
part of having a conscience and a morality is to be optimistic about humanity
by being pessimistic, you betray the causes you say you care about
hope is sometimes all there is, and by abandoning hope, you are now part of the problem: loudly saying useless shit
grow a fucking backbone
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
And great job to the FBI for their crack background check on that serial pervert, Brian Doyle, formerly with the Department of Homeland Security!!!!!
[If the Target Police and Florida police are busting criminal Republicans, and Eliot Spitzer is busting criminal corps..What's the FBI doing???]
Your problem is that your head doesn't belong up your ass... He's offering jobs. Real ones. I'm sure some people will appreciate (being able to pay the bills is nice). And VB.Net isn't quite like VB6. Not my favorite (I'd prefer C#) but it's still OK. So just STFU already.
I'm testament to this upward trend. Just started a longterm contract job today after three and a half years of complete unemployment. Within that time, I had been working for only three months on quick projects. And that's not mentioning the days leading up to my start date I was pursued for employment by two dueling organizations. Over the past month I've had more curious employers contact me after seeing my resume online, and I've had a noticeable increase in interview offers.
So if any of you are still unemployed, your salvation is near. Keep your heads up.
- IP
one of the things i am is someone who knows that the human mind's greatest strength is it's ability to find patterns in things. unfortunately, this power is so great, the mind sees patterns and connections that aren't even there. this sometimes leads to superstitious and paranoid behavior in individuals without much heft in the frontal lobes
it's sad to see people like you trapped in your mental shortcomings, to go through life and think about the world around you the way you do, a helpless "us" versus an all-controlling "them"
james bond b-grade hollywood fantasies make great entertainment, but not much of a life
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
This issue of deepchip has some interesting sections on outsourcing, how hiring really goes on behind the scenes, some interesting data and statistics
on actual hirings, and how much they spend on hiring people (new grads, monster, stealing people from other companies, etc).
very very interesting.
my blog
I am an experience Oracle DBA. I started looking for a new job in the last two weeks. I have noticed a few things.
1. There are a small number of jobs advertised by a large number of recruiters. So you can negotiate with recruiters for the highest rate a.
2. There is a huge variance in pay. I have seen advertised/been contacted for jobs with rates between $35-85/hour. It's all kind of the same thing. If I see an ad with 'will sponsor h1-b, I don't apply because that will not pay as much.
3. Recruiters still lie as much as they always do so do not trust them.
4. There is an increase in interest in me over 2 years ago(last time I looked for a job). Not huge. I don't have people throwing money at me. I also do not know if its just this month its a little better, or if it will last. As I said its also hard to tell, because you have to figure out which recruiter is representing which employer so you don't get dual submitted.
5. Software development jobs are turning into short term temp work(even if it is highly paid). I don't see alot of permanent positions. Mainly contracts.
What do you do? Where are you located? And how does your resume look?
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Prove that this cannot be outsourced.
And when grunt coding is being done overseas, it is impossible to get the experience to be better than a grunt coder.
Almost all good coders got their start with a coding job. Now that the coding jobs are gone, how will we develop the higher level skillset?
Oh and start looking forward to those offshore coders forming their own companies and outcompeting your product with their own cheaper one.
Japanese cars, anyone?
There is a reason why people no longer study CS. They know better.
But below the top level, companies are laying people off.
i'm negative to negative assholes
;-)
like you, fuckwad
now let's test your abilities at basic math
a negative of a negative is a what?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Job cuts are down because they are quickly running out of people to lay off. Most of the companies they are talking about are operating with as few full time IT people as possible. Everything else is either in the hands of "consultants" or has been either automated, or outsourced to another country. More BS stats that don't mean anything, but get website hits for Slashdot.
Less jobs = less job cuts. If you cut off 8 fingers, the next round of cuts will be significantly less.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
there are those who trust too much
and those who suffer from a deficit in the ability to trust
these handicaps permeate the problems some people have in every level of their lives: work, romance, friends and family, as well as the way they see their world and the way it works
so learn the balance, crackpot, or live an impoverished life... not financially impoverished, but mentally
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
why do you think every indian professional comes with 10 years of experience? employers want to see that on paper, they give that on paper. what's required to do the job might be much less, both know that. so both are happy in the end.
"Be proactive in defining your career direction, and flexible in the industries that you practice in."
Sounds very nice in theory, doesn't wash in the real world.
If you are lucky enough to have job, you don't get to chose your career direction. You can study, but study is useless without experience, and your employer decides on your expeerience.
He's chewed to half way up my thigh, but I think he's getting kind of full. At this rate it'll be hours before he reaches my groin.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I personally refuse to take jobs involving MS technologies. But that's just me. Others can have those jobs, I certainly don't want them no matter how much they would pay.
Meh.
The only reason the layoff's are drying up is that the current H1B visa quota is tapped dry. Attached to the Immigration reform legislation are increased H1B quotas that are set to grow every year. Don't forget to contact your Congressman.
Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
Oh, please. To start, grow up and lose the whiny attitude.
I'll bet you haven't gotten the jobs you want because you come across poorly in interviews. Similarly, if none of your contract jobs have grown into full-time work, it's likely because, having seen you in action, no one wants you on their team.
Try being a winner instead of a whiner. Conduct yourself with some class. Improve the atmosphere of each workplace you enter, rather than poisoning it. Do everything you can to add value to the companies you interact with, and maybe they'll consider adding some greenbacks to your wallet.
I've hired lots of people for sysadmin jobs. With very few exceptions, they've either had no degree or a degree in an unrelated field. I primarily look for the right attitude and team fit. Skills can be taught. Integrity can't.
I must admit, I have a good few years in IT Security, but I'm sitting with a newish CS graduate on his second job, and we're being paid the same.
Both of us are on contract, earning the UK equivalent of $875 per day. At this rate, we work 6 months (approx $100k), and then find another post. This is in the City, finance, but the work is fairly simple. Mainly hardening system builds, firewall rulesets, bit of crypto procedures on specialist Racal kit.
Look on Jobserve UK. Search on 'Security and City'. You will find some positions at around $1000+ a day. Of course, you have to commute into London, put up with European limits on the hours you can work, forced breaks and all that...
People get jobs doing plumbing, too, but that doesn't make them developers either.
I have a couple of different techniques for judging the job market.
There's the inverse fast foot indicator:
if I get really sucky service at a restaurant, the job market is good. When restaurant service is great, the job market sucks.
Then there's the pimp index:
Number and frequency of calls from recruiters
And finally, the swag factor:
When my employer feels the need to increase swag, I know the job market is getting better.
YMMV
----- If communism is a system where the government owns business, what do you call a system where business owns govern
Maintaining a defeatist attitude is the single biggest deterrent to career advancement. In order for anyone to find happiness in the workplace, you need to do some soul searching, as well as discovering some things about the real world: - What type of work makes you happy? - What type of industry needs someone that can do that type of work? - What do I do now that I can apply to that industry / job? - Are there any intermediary steps that I need to take before I can get there? - Do I need to move to a larger centre (or smaller centre) to get those opportunities? Very seldom to people stumble into their dream job. You have a job now, and that's a good thing. Look at what you can take from this job and apply to your next job. When you are job hunting, you should look for jobs that: - are willing to provide training related to what you wish to do* * This does not mean that they will train you for 100% of the job, but would be interested in teaching you as much as 30% of what they would expect you to do. - have a broader scope - allowing you to learn more about how what you do affects other arms of the company - have more responsibility - providing you with some management skills (project or people) - will provide you with experience related to where you are going. Be prepared to relocate for the right opportunity. Understand that the right opportunity is less about money than it is about experience. Remember that you always have a choice in your career direction. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice.
d'oh - this time in Plain 'ol text...
Maintaining a defeatist attitude is the single biggest deterrent to career advancement.
In order for anyone to find happiness in the workplace, you need to do some soul searching, as well as discovering some things about the real world:
- What type of work makes you happy?
- What type of industry needs someone that can do that type of work?
- What do I do now that I can apply to that industry / job?
- Are there any intermediary steps that I need to take before I can get there?
- Do I need to move to a larger centre (or smaller centre) to get those opportunities?
Very seldom to people stumble into their dream job. You have a job now, and that's a good thing. Look at what you can take from this job and apply to your next job.
When you are job hunting, you should look for jobs that:
- are willing to provide training related to what you wish to do*
* This does not mean that they will train you for 100% of the job, but would be interested in teaching you as much as 30% of what they would expect you to do.
- have a broader scope - allowing you to learn more about how what you do affects other arms of the company
- have more responsibility - providing you with some management skills (project or people)
- will provide you with experience related to where you are going.
Be prepared to relocate for the right opportunity. Understand that the right opportunity is less about money than it is about experience.
Remember that you always have a choice in your career direction. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice.
A lot depends on your expectations, your tolerance for certain types of BS, and your standard of living. And plain old luck, of course. :-)
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
blame the People.
They aren't abiding by any one tenant, but transiently moving in any direction that steals the most of ANYTHING from whomever they employ under them. They covet their neighbors and their neighbors' properties. Have anyone REALY competed in the market, as equal? It's been one mal-nourished company toppling the aggressive anti-competitive monopoly after the next. Where's the competition in that? In the several states alongside the united States of America, there remedy towards the mis-handling of the United States is called the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. That Act applies everywhere, so-long as it doesn't violate a security interest or non-conditioned property rights. If the People want a better world, let them be charitable without tax deductions. Tax deductions are fraud, and so are taxes.
It appears more likely to fall upon a remedy brought by some manner as said after the fact:
"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:39-40); would it be that people that work ill will on eachother, that they have no love for God: God is truth, and any contrary is not of God?
These are relevant:
do not kill
do not steal
do not bear false witness
love your neighbor as yourself
without prejudice
Only problem I have with those is that if you don't qualify as people (because.. say you worship a different god or you don't worship god), then it's okay to kill you, take your daughters and all the rest of your property.
But that's really a different subject than this.
I comprehend the concern. As I said above, applicable. According to my comprehension, you have just now evinced particularities that are god-like. Worship is not an empty word, as caused in modern interpretation to be the value-less waiving of hands and kicking one's heals to the sky and belly to the ground. Brother, I have the same concern for a neighbor.
And I know my brother, a neighbor as yourself, has blood and eyes and ears; not a matter composed of fiction, but what has a sound mind to not tresspass on someone's or somebody's interests and rights. Considering these, I can only be as honourable as someone will allow their honour of life to not tresspass upon me. Show me someone that does not kill, does not steal; loves their neighbor as themself, and repents of tresspass, allows or acknowledges redress of grievances: by their living will.
What of the light of day?
without prejudice