All D&D Books To Be Available As PDFs

sckeener writes "DriveThruRPG has just announced that it will be selling all of WotC's 3.5 Edition D&D products in e-book format - over 90 books. Wizards has elected not to make the three core rulebooks for Dungeons & Dragons available as eBooks at this time, but almost every other current Dungeons & Dragons title will be available from DriveThruRPG. New titles are scheduled to release one each weekday on DriveThruRPG: Some of the titles to be released first include: Book of Vile Darkness, Heroes of Horror, Arms and Equipment Guide, d20 Apocalypse, Champions of Ruin, Complete Arcane, Unearthed Arcana, Masters of the Wild and Book of Challenges. The books are still full price and are DRM protected." I'd be happier about this if they were even slightly discounted, but it's a good step. Heroes of Horror is worth every penny.

Comments

D&D Books in PDF is awesome.

[Kranfer]

I love this idea. While I like having my nice tidy bookshelves full of books, being able to have my laptop right there with a PDF to search for Rules or concepts would make people who are rule whores like me be able to find the specifics quickly without spending 20 minutes looking. I would like to see the PDFs discounted though, that would be a kicker to have to pay full price for the PDFs again just to have them on my laptop and not have to have 09571340987 books to look through. It would also be nice to see the Fantasy World books put out by Wizards to be in PDF too. Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc.

Re:D&D Books in PDF is awesome.

[Anonymous Coward]

I really wish the PDF versions would come free with the print versions. A hardcopy is just much easier to use when you're sitting at the table, but it would still be nice to have the electronic version to search when you're not actively playing. I don't like the idea of having to pay twice, though.

Re:D&D Books in PDF is awesome.

[Lacota]

You don't need these. Aside from the lovely consept art, most of the D&D content can be found in the SRD (System Reference Document). Which encompasess the core rulebooks, as well as some of the fringe 3.5 content (Psionics, Divine feats, etc) You can download it in chunks or the whole thing. They are in unencumbered RTF files. Totally free too! In Wizard's own words, here is the missing content from the SRD: Q: What's missing from the SRD compared to the core D&D rulebooks? A: Mostly the "flavor" elements. There are no named gods, none of the spells have significant NPC names, there's no mention of Greyhawk, etc. You'll also note that there are no rules for character creation, for advancing characters in level, calculating experience, or anything else related to the topics forbidden by the d20 System Trademark Guide. Here is the D&D SRD: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/s rd35 Here is the D20 Modern SRD (MSRD): http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/m srd

Re:D&D Books in PDF is awesome.

[halcyon1234]

Sure, PDF is great (rolls eyes), but they're completely neglecting all that could be done with the medium.

What I'd like to see is something like the AD&D Core Rules CD-ROM. It had every book and every rule. It was searchable (by topic, by keyword, by book, by anything). And it included a character generator.

It was miles above a PDF. Since it was all text (not scanned pages), it was easy to read, resize, and scroll through.

I'd love to see a product like this. Especially if they could tailor it for a PDA. I've got a couple hundred megs available on my 1GB flash. The entirety of AD&D2 takes up ~333 megs... and that's with all the character, map, dungeon and campaign generators. All the rules, along with a simple Character utility, would take up far less.

Heck, if it's on a PDA, you can even take advantage of the Beam feature. Want to transfer gold and equipment to another player? Beam it. The GM's handing out XP? Beam it. Want to send a secret message to another player telling them to stab the third player in the back. Beam it. =)

They COULD add in some sort of dice-rolling utility that broadcasts its results to the group (to avoid cheating, of course ;) ), but I know I'd never use it. Nothing beats rolling the actual bones.

For a product like that, I'd gladly pay, like, $50. Though I'd probably be better off using that $50 to buy a pipe to smoke that dream with.

Re:D&D Books in PDF is awesome.

[Jubetas]

I used to run the Gamers' Guild at the college I went to, and I know that at least fully half of the members, if not more would be all over this. I'm with you on rolling actual dice (old yellow has a habit of rolling 20s), but we already had people who prefer dicebots for whatever reason. It's too bad that a fantastic idea like this will probably never reach fruition, for us tech-loving gamers. I'd mod you up if I had em.

Re:D&D Books in PDF is awesome.

[RedWizzard]

You don't need these. Aside from the lovely consept art, most of the D&D content can be found in the SRD (System Reference Document).

The SRD does not cover any of the stuff in (e.g.) The Complete Adventurer. You're correct in that you don't need these to play, but the implication that there is little or no new material in these books is false.

Re:D&D Books in PDF is awesome.

[Quipp]

I think you will see more and more games going digital, just like comic books are making the transition (slowly). Think of the benefits of being able to simply pick the pages you need, such as specific creatures you're using in a campaign, or the option of just printing out a module on demand, all in your computer, to use, mark up, and print again. I do this with digital versions of LOTR. The PDF's may be protected, but rest assured, there will be young, inquiring minds that will hack and snatch it for their own use...which might be why, IMO, the main books could be held back.
What is disturbing, however, regardless of the print or no-print capability, is the price remaining the same. Why should that be the case, when there is no longer a printing cost, distribution cost, or warehousing cost? If you want more people to get excited, pass that savings onto your customers!

Re:D&D Books in PDF is awesome.

[TrentC]

Aside from the lovely consept art, most of the D&D content can be found in the SRD (System Reference Document)

The SRD does not contain the rules for the following:

• The new base classes introduced in books such as the Eberron Campaign sourcebook, the Complete series, Heroes of Horror, Player's Handbook II, etc.
• The voluntary poverty system described in Book of Exalted Deeds, which allows for a character who want to live a monastic lifestyle to be playable after the first few levels
• The action point system used in the Eberron campaign setting (although a similar mechanic does exists in the Modern SRD, which is the OGL subset of WotC's D20 Modern roleplaying system)
  
• The leadership score, commander rating and commander auras from Heroes of Battle, as well as the rules for simplfying large-scale combat
• The corruption rules in Heroes of Horror (although an earlier version of the rules was made available under the OGL)
• Rules for "magic events", large-scale magical effects that cannot easily be duplicated by existing spells, in Dungeon Master's Guide II
• Teamwork benefits from Dungeon Master's Guide II, Heroes of Battle, and Player's Handbook II, which allow for groups of players to gain additonal benefits from training together and taking complementary skills and feats
• The rules for the new magic subsystems, such as soulmelds (from Magic of Incarnum), truespeech, shadow magic and pact magic (all from Tome of Magic)
• The rules for substitition levels (introduced in Manual of the Planes) and expanded class features (introduced in Player's Handbook II), which allow the base classes to be further customized
• The hundreds of new prestige classes, feats and spells in virtually every book WotC has put out over the past three years
• ...and more to come

The core rules of 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons is what is available in the SRD, which will probably satisfy many players (especially the ones who like making their own homebrew campaigns, or are updating pre-3rd edition campaigns to the new rules). But to claim that "most of the rules" are freely available is demonstrably false.

Sweet!

[sunrise.kid]

No all I need are some friends to play with :-(

Re:Sweet!

[Allison Geode]

i'm in the same boat. i'm trying to indoctrinate my friends, but.. they all think its a bit too nerdy. even the ones that read and collect comics! i'm all "dude, we shop at the same store, just different sides! give it a try!" but no dice.

*sigh*

Re:Sweet!

[sunrise.kid]

My roomate is the only person I know who might want to play on a regular basis but he's one of the "jock gamer" types. You know the kind, he's kicked back into the couch picking dice out from under crotch, only plays barbarians, and likes to exclaim "Yeah man, I kicked the **** out of that goblin!" Role-playing indeed.

yeah but...

[i.r.id10t]

... They won't have Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwells, or Gary Gygax's signatures on them like my old copies!

Re:yeah but...

[mfh]

Why not? Just scan them on and add them to the PDFs yourself!

Re:yeah but...

[i.r.id10t]

Heck, if I got back into playing, I could use it as an excuse to go to GenCon again... hrm... wonder if the wife would mind?

Re:yeah but...

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't like she's going to have to worry about you cheating on her there!!!

Re:yeah but...

[fightzombies]

You have signed copies!? Those must be worth like thousands of GP!

Boo

[giorgiofr]

There they go and take a perfectly cool idea and corrupt it. These books should be sold with a huge discount because lots of costs have been cut by distributing them online as PDFs. And don't they realize that the very value of a PDF is intrinsically lower than that of a hardbound book? I might as well just buy the real thing and be done with it.
Besides... PDF DRM? I've been given tons of supa-dupa-drm-protected PDFs in the past and usually they gave up in under 10 seconds. As usual, determined attackers will get what they want, while people who are obviously loyal to the brand and good customers get shafted by having their book usage restricted.
(OK, I have an axe to grind... I never really forgave them for the switch to d20... or for buying RTS at all)

Re:Boo

[Red Flayer]

"And don't they realize that the very value of a PDF is intrinsically lower than that of a hardbound book? "

Absolutely false. The cost of production might be lower, but the value is determined by the consumer, not directly by the characteristics of the item.

To me, the PDF would actually be MORE valuable, since I commute a long distance and would be able to read them on my laptop without lugging around some heavy tomes. Easier to tag, cross-reference, etc. How about indexing the books and being able to instantly (well, near-instantly, these are pdfs after all) call up all references to a certain spell in all the books?

In short, value is ascribed by the perceived utility of the object, not by production and distribution costs.

Re:Boo

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Also, screen readers need to copy text to the clipboard. The blind can't read DRM'd PDFs, which would be one of the great advantages of having an electronic copy. Luckily the open parts of the D20 system are available in web format. [http://www.d20srd.org/]

Re:Boo

[MattW]

I think what the poster really means to say is that MOST people value a PDF far less than a hardbound book, and therefore if they want to maximize their sales (the sum of X*Y where X is the units sold and Y is the price, knowing that X will decline as Y goes up), they should be pricing it competitively against the book. Also, it is a great deal less costly to convert a book to PDF than it is to convert a PDF to a book. That implies that the book has intrinsic value the PDF does not have. They both contain the same information, but the book has a binding, paper, shipping, etc. The PDF requires a small amount of bandwidth. You may value a PDF more than the book, due to its higher utility to you, but you may also value a 1984 Toyota Celica over a 2005 Mercedes, if it is extremely important to you to not appear ostentatious. But that doesn't mean the actual value of the Celica is more. Likewise, you might prefer a piece of etched glass over a diamond, but that also doesn't mean the glass has a "higher value". Rather, value is a perception of value, and the vast majority of people will value the hardbound book more. In a sense, you could say that the less valuable product, in this case, has more utility to you.

Ironically, when I saw this headline in my RSS feeder, I thought: oh, cool, they're going to just give away the PDFs. That's smart, now people will see the material and end up buying physical copies, so they can have all the cool stuff they come across in an easy-reference format when gaming. Oops. Silly me. SELLING PDFs. Good luck with that, WotC.

Re:Boo

[Neo_piper]

I'm on the fence personaly... I feel that maby the best way would be to include your super-duper-drm'ed PDF on a CD WITH the paper copy book.
The entire idea of having to lug (not to mention BUY) a Laptop and charger around to just read a book just dosn't leave me with a good taste in my mouth. I love the idea of the PDF but making me buy it seperate and additional to the book seems a bit too much.
I just can't get over the loss of the paper in a "book".
Oh and anybody who says to "Just Print it out" will be shot in the head.

Re:Boo

[indytx]

These books should be sold with a huge discount because lots of costs have been cut by distributing them online as PDFs. And don't they realize that the very value of a PDF is intrinsically lower than that of a hardbound book? I might as well just buy the real thing and be done with it.

What's the market for D&D books? Is this going to make it grow? If not, then selling the PDFs at a "huge discount" will amount to a huge drop in revenue, and WotC loses money.

Re:Boo

[The Evil Couch]

The core books are available for free on WOTC's website, though. So, they've already done that. They just aren't being consumer-friendly with the rest of their books.

Re:Boo

[Red Flayer]

Sure, some people prefer (and would therefore value higher, and pay more for) bound physical copies over pdfs. My point, though, was that there is no intrinsic value in an object. My personal valuation was just used as an example of that.

"In a sense, you could say that the less valuable product, in this case, has more utility to you."

Not at all. I could say that the pdf is less valuable to me. Or I could say that I value the hardbound copies less than most people. I think that you're confusing 'market value' with 'value' -- 'market' defines who is assigning the value in that case. So I could say that I believe the pdf version to have a higher value than the market value -- or rather, that the market undervalues the pdf version.

No matter what, though, there is no intrinsic value of any item -- as you say, it's perception of value -- especially when referring to microeconomics (as the OP was, by talking about pricing) you cannot discuss value without identifying who is assigning the value.

Re:Boo

[Aranth Brainfire]

That's kind of odd, most of the people I know value the ability to grab a book and flip through it at the table, rather than grab their laptop and click through a pdf.

Your argument is sound, but your conclusion is hasty and based on a small sample. The grandparent isn't "absolutely" false- it's entirely possible that they're correct. Of course, you could be correct too. Who knows?

Re:Boo

[Red Flayer]

No, the OP is absolutely false. Intrinsic value does not exist when discussing microeconomics, as he was by discussing pricing.

Whether or not the market value, that is, the value assigned by the purchasers and sellers of the good, is higher for the books than for the pdfs, the pdf and the book have no intrinsic value.

Re:Boo

[MattW]

Sure, some people prefer (and would therefore value higher, and pay more for) bound physical copies over pdfs

Not "some" - "nearly all".

My point, though, was that there is no intrinsic value in an object. My personal valuation was just used as an example of that.

I'm not sure what made you think that wasn't completely obvious.

"In a sense, you could say that the less valuable product, in this case, has more utility to you."

Not at all. I could say that the pdf is less valuable to me. Or I could say that I value the hardbound copies less than most people. I think that you're confusing 'market value' with 'value' -- 'market' defines who is assigning the value in that case. So I could say that I believe the pdf version to have a higher value than the market value -- or rather, that the market undervalues the pdf version.

When I used value in that sentence, I was referring to market value. Which should be the default assumption if I don't refer to anyone. If someone asks, "How much is an ounce of gold worth?", no one asks, "To who?", even though most people wouldn't have any use at all for an ounce of gold, other than to sell or trade it.

Re:Boo

[shutdown -p now]

In short, value is ascribed by the perceived utility of the object, not by production and distribution costs.

You forgot to add, "... according to some schools of thought". Last I checked it was not an axiom yet.

Re:Boo

[MBraynard]

Seems almost no one is consumer-friendly if you define it as giving away your product for free.

Re:Boo

[Red Flayer]

When I used value in that sentence, I was referring to market value.

Well, since the OP wasn't referring to market value, that just confuses the issue. In this case, you applied a default of 'market' to value, even though the OP and myself were not discussing market value, but instead, 'intrinsic value', whatever that is.

Re:Boo

[mwvdlee]

How much does the actual production and distribution of hardcopy books cost? I'd be surprised if it were more than a few dollars.
As for the (objective) value; you can quickly search in e-books, a very useful feature for books often used as reference.

Re:Boo

[MattW]

Technically, "intrinsic value" has a meaning - it refers to the value of metal in a coin. If I have a gold coin worth $30, but the metal itself is worth $9, its intrinsic value is $9. Your quarter is "worth" $.25 thanks to the government, but the actual metal is not worth $.25, so it has a much lower intrinsic value.

So, the OP is technically correct. Paper, glue, and bindings cost money, and bits do not. In fact, technically, bits cost YOU money, since you need something to store your PDF on. Books don't actually require a bookshelf. If you're using "intrinsic" to mean "market value of component parts", then the components of the book are worth more.

I think the OP meant market value when he said "intrinsic". In this case, he's using "intrinsic" to mean, "it possesses value" due to its nature, implying that for someone to prefer a PDF (as you do), they would need to have an extrinsic motivation (such as an uncommon need for portability).

Ah, the fun of semantics.

Love electronic distribution but...

[cgranade]

While I do love electronic distribution, trying to read something as long as the Spell Compendium in a PDF makes me shudder. I love being able to physically flip pages, pass the book around and read without a computer. There are certianally things that are nicer about an electronic distribution, but when they try to recreate a book on a computer, it loses a lot of what makes reading on a computer better. When I can do a spin-find, resize the window and have the text rewrap, change fonts for maximum readability, etc., then I'll give it some more thought. Until then, I prefer that my books are in fact books, and that my files stay delightfully DRM-free.

Re:Love electronic distribution but...

[Bieeanda]

Exactly. It's a lot easier to pass a hardcover around the table (or loan it to a player for a week) than it is to dick around with a laptop at the gaming table. My group has tried just that, several times, and each time it's been a worse than miserable excursion. Charging full price for the books simply adds insult to injury-- Steve Jackson Games, as much as I dislike their new lineup, is at least charging $25 for their PDFs, which is a fair amount less than you'll find them for at the local gaming shop.

PDF is a great format for some forms of text, but large-format books with multiple printed columns are not one of them. I have a copy of the Dragon Magazine archive, and if it weren't for search functions then the scans would be next to useless-- there's an unacceptable trade-off between readability and being able to skim pages at a time; at the average resolution, you're stuck scrolling up and down the same page to follow the flow of each column, which a document properly formatted for electronic display avoids.

Re:Love electronic distribution but...

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this "read without a computer" concept you're talking about? I don't follow.

Re:Love electronic distribution but...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are certianally things that are nicer about an electronic distribution, but when they try to recreate a book on a computer, it loses a lot of what makes reading on a computer better. When I can do a spin-find, resize the window and have the text rewrap, change fonts for maximum readability, etc., then I'll give it some more thought.

Like this?

Re:Love electronic distribution but...

[Lifelike]

Your post reminded me of all that fuss about PDF readers and how they're still essentially tablet computers. I can't wait for the day when technology gets to the point where we can have a reader shaped like an acctual book with a handful of physical pages. Imagine how cool it would be to pull up a PDF in your "book reader", say, and having the blank pages suddenly full of text. You could carry hundreds of books around in the space of a a single one, preserve the tactile sensation of using a book, and say you could even do a search that moved the digital pages open to the section you desire, allowing you to even flip back and forth within that same general area like you would with a real book in case you weren't exactly sure where you saw it.

Eh, here's hoping by that point you could acctually load the thing into your book reader without running afoul of the bloody DRM. :)

Re:Love electronic distribution but...

[LordVader717]

You mean like this?

Good Idea

[Thyamine]

This is certainly a good idea since a large number of computer geeks (yes, admit it.. you are, and so am I) play, and we're the most likely to adopt e-books or books in PDF form. However I personally prefer to have a book in physical form for all things, so unless there's some motiviation to purchase the book in this format (financial or otherwise) I'm not going to be doing this.

The one benefit that is very clear though, is the ability to purchase books and have them immediately, and not be limited by what the bookstore happens to have in stock today.

Re:Good Idea

[artaxerxes]

If they are OCR'ed to allow searching (automagically with OS X Spotlight for instance) this would be the single greatest boon.

Hopefully they will realise it's also a perfect opportunity to include Errata.

I just hope they allow eventually you to roll your own rulebooks with the elements of individual PDFs. That would be especially handy.

Re:Good Idea

[pla]

I just hope they allow eventually you to roll your own rulebooks with the elements of individual PDFs. That would be especially handy.

Psst - You can break the rules!

Really!

If everyone in your gaming group agrees a particular rule sucks - ignore it. If you hate using spell memorization rather than per-level MP (my own biggest peeve), just use MP and to hell with memorization. If you think a fixed exp per kill leads to mindless killing sprees and dungeon crawling, make better use of roleplaying-based advancement.

Re:Good Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

But the rules are GOD! We must obey the RULES!
Creative thinking is for those non-CS weenies.

Re:Good Idea

[FurryFeet]

You didn't actually read what GP said.

Here: I just hope they allow eventually you to roll your own rulebooks with the elements of individual PDFs. That would be especially handy.

Translation: I wish they'd allow me to cut and paste parts and pieces of the PDFs to create my own rules compilations. Trah would be especially handy.

You're welcome.

Cool... but...

[mfh]

Not trying to troll, but I just hope the GOOD d&d books will be in PDF -- you know -- the 1st Gen rules and the non-dumb 2nd Gen. rules like THACO.

All the 3rd gen stuff is for video games, IMHO. Seriously who really cares if a stick falls four feet from my character while he's trying to backstab a 4th level ranger from 11.474m and it "may" cause him to lose concentration. By the time you figure out the math the beer is warm and the prezels are gone!

Re:Cool... but...

[Kranfer]

I don't think you're trolling and I agree. 3rd Edition is perfect rules for Video Games. I always liked the 2nd Edition rules with THAC0 and such. Hopefully they WILL put 1st and 2nd edition into PDFs. I would definately buy them.

Re:Cool... but...

[mfh]

Finding 1st Gen books is totally hard nowadays. Nobody has them and mine are covered in coffee stains and beer sludge. I would totally buy the 1st and 2nd Gen rules in PDF!

We tried 3rd gen but it slowed the story down too much.

Re:Cool... but...

[lytlebill]

Actually, you can already get a ton of them as pdf. And not too expensive, either.

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast /aDAndD2/

Re:Cool... but...

[ranton]

Wow, has math education in this country really that bad? (Even among geeks/nerds?)

3rd edition has the easiest math from any edition yet. Thaco was much harder to explain to a newcomer than the current BAB/AC rules. And there is no 11.474m ranges, everything is in 5ft increments. To my knowledge there are no rules for anything in the entire game that is in less than a 5ft increment.

I never have problems with the math in 3rd edition DnD. And neither have any of the players I have ever played with. 2nd edition had far more convoluted rules. WoC realized that players didnt care to have charts that tracked a female PCs menstration cycle, so they vastly simplified the rules in 3rd ed. I cant see how anyone can actually believe that 2nd edition (and expecially THACO) were better than the current system?

--

Re:Cool... but...

[(H)elix1]

If you are looking for an electronic 'legit' version of the earlier stuff, see if you can find a 'core rules' CD ROM. They had a bunch of character editors, etc - but the real gold was the books were in RTF format! Easy enough to turn into PDF, but even better, you could mark them up with your notes, carve out sections you needed as player or DM.

Re:Cool... but...

[mrmagos]

You liked THAC0? What the hell is wrong with you? That was the most backward combat system EVER. 1st and 3rd edition rules make much more sense.
My only issue with 3rd ed. is the proliferation of supplements. I DM on occasion, and just knowing which feat is located in what book can be difficult to track at times. WotC almost needs to put out another book just to index some of this stuff, like the Spell Compendium.

Re:Cool... but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm... you do know that 1st and 2nd edition stuff been available for 5+ YEARS in PDF (no DRM) format, right?

http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id =4

(posted AC to avoid karma whoring).

Re:Cool... but...

[Sylver Dragon]

Why do some people still like the idea of ThAC0? It was the most broken of ideas ever put into D&D. (BTW, ThAC0 was in D&D, before the A got added, and well before 2nd Ed.) Of course, if you look hard enough at it, 3rd and 3.5 editions still have it, they just did the sensible thing and multiplied a -1 through the whole damn thing and rectified it.
Ok, just go with the fighter for simplicity, those who care to you can work out the rest.
ThAC0: each level the Fighter's ThAC0 goes down 1. (e.g. 19, 18, 17, etc.)
3rd: each level the Fighters To Hit bonus goes up 1. (e.g. +1, +2, +3, etc.)
So, at this point, we have just changed from subtracting 1 each level, starting at 20 to adding 1 each level starting at 0. So the delta is the same, but the starting point and sign has changed.
ThAC0: Naked opponent has an AC of 10, 1st level fighter with a ThAC0 of 19 hits on a roll of a 9 (ignoring Str., magic, etc.)
3rd: Naked opponent has an AC of 10, 1st level fighter with a To Hit bonus of +1 hits on a roll of a 9.(same conditions)
At this point, the mechanics work out exactly the same, the only differece is the method to get there.
ThAC0: ThAC0 of 19 - AC of 10 = 9 to hit roll.
3rd: AC of 10 - +1 To Hit Bonus = 9 to hit roll.
Again, we're arriving at the same point.
Next up, armor.
Leather armor:
ThAC0: Reduces your AC by 4 (gives you an AC of 6)
3rd: Increses your AC by 4 (gives you an AC of 14)
If you have a ThAC0 of 17 or a +3 To Hit bonus and roll a 12, what AC do you hit (do you hit the guy in leather)?
ThAC0: ThAC0 17 - roll of 12 = AC 5 (Hit)
3rd: 12 roll + 3 bonus = AC 15 (Hit)
Notice that, not only do both work out to hit the guy in leather, they both do so with the exact same margin i.e. by 1 more than was needed.
So, both work out the same, why do I call ThAC0 broken? Look back through the process and consider the average combat.
DM: Roll to hit.
Player: *rolls*
DM: What AC did you hit?
Player (ThAC0 version): ThAC0 of 17 minus 12 is....5 I hit an AC of 5
Player (3rd ed. version): 12 + 3 is 15 I hit a 15
(rest of combat)
In the ThAC0 version, the player was having to do subtraction, in the 3rd. ed. version the player did addition (and can accomplish it through counting). It's a subtle diffrence, but for many people, who are not great at math, addition is easier that subtration, primarilly because they know how to count (I've listened to players do this). This is why a very popular method of teaching people to give change is called Counting Change Up. It's easy to do for the non-math inclined.
When you get down to it, ThAC0 isn't gone. 3rd. Ed. just got rid of the subtraction. Yes, if you want to figure out the roll you need to hit something you have to do subtraction; that is not a necessary step. Telling the DM what AC you just hit is. For many players, 3rd Ed. allows them to completly avoid subtraction, and makes the game smoother and more accessible.

Re:Cool... but...

[Kranfer]

No I didn't know that, but thanks for the info! I will download it at home after work tonight.

Re:Cool... but...

[KDR_11k]

And there is no 11.474m ranges, everything is in 5ft increments.

Indeed, that'd fall into the 10.668 to 12.192 meter range.

Mostly awesome!

[Rob T Firefly]

This is definitely a good thing, as I've known GMs who need the convenience of e-books badly enough that they either scan the whole thing themselves or (ahem) find another source of a scanned copy It's definitely one of the reasons I mainly GM from digital source material. But, why no discount? That's pretty inexcusable.

Re:Mostly awesome!

[Tet]

This is definitely a good thing, as I've known GMs who need the convenience of e-books badly enough that they either scan the whole thing themselves or (ahem) find another source of a scanned copy

I've tried GMing with PDF versions of the 2e manuals (legally bought), but I just found that it's not as convenient as having the book in front of you. I'm back to the good old paper manuals now.

Re:Mostly awesome!

[gameguy1957]

I agree it would be a good thing if the pricing were better. I could see getting them in addition to the books. I prefer to have a book in hand most of the time. But these would be great if you were looking for info quickly or to browse while on the road. However, I can't afford to rebuy everything over again at full price. I think a good range would be $10-$15 for the core sized books and less for the smaller books or modules.

-JM

Re:Mostly awesome!

[Ohreally_factor]

Actually, it's even worse than no discount. You're actually paying a premium for the electronic version, vs. the price at Amazon. Compare $26 for the Complete Warrior PDF vs. $17 at Amazon.

PDF, eh?

[pla]

Cool, so the DRM comes pre-cracked, and these should appear online within a month or so. ;-)


On a more seriously note - I think RPG rulebooks work better in physical form. Granted, you can't drag an entire shelf of books around with you, but the players guide, DMs guide, and whatever setting-specific guide applies to your campaign, doesn't really take that much effort - The Dew and snacks for the evening probably weigh more than the books you need.

And as for looking up a particular rule... C'mon, admit it folks - you have the rulebooks all but memorized, and just need to check whether half-ogre gets a 15% or 20% racial modifier to damage with a double-handed flail...


Sigh... And after writing the above, guess what captcha I get? "losers". Not so subtle hint, oh Gods of Slashdot?

Re:PDF, eh?

[Enderandrew]

Most of these are already online as PDFs with no DRM. I have quite a few of them. Mind you I have quite a few books in hardcover, but I also download a PDF version since so many damned players kept borrowing books and never returned them. When I play, I want a book infront of me. If a player wants a book, I email them a PDF version.

And there is no reason why the PDF versions should be full price.

Re:PDF, eh?

[Kierthos]

A month? Give it two weeks, and you'll be able to download them for free.

Kierthos

Re:PDF, eh?

[Spazmania]

these should appear online within a month or so

They've been online for some time now. alt.binaries.e-book.rpg. 'Nuff said.

Re:PDF, eh?

[ichigo 2.0]

Sigh... And after writing the above, guess what captcha I get? "losers". Not so subtle hint, oh Gods of Slashdot?

Why did you get a captcha? I never get that when logged in.

Re:PDF, eh?

[TheOtherChimeraTwin]

And as for looking up a particular rule... C'mon, admit it folks - you have the rulebooks all but memorized, and just need to check whether half-ogre gets a 15% or 20% racial modifier to damage with a double-handed flail...

It is only 10%! Oh, hold on, the moon is Waning Gibbous tonight. Never mind, 15% is correct.

Re:PDF, eh?

[pla]

Why did you get a captcha? I never get that when logged in.

I usually don't log in until ready to post... So, for my first post of the current browsing session, I get a captcha.

Re:PDF, eh?

[Alistar]

Yes, I know this is off-topic, but ...

I don't even get a captcha to log in.

Am I supposed to?

I block flash and java on all pages, perhaps that has something to do with it.

Re:PDF, eh?

[_Sprocket_]

And the irony is, of course, that the unauthorized versions are likely to be more functional than the full-price official production.

Re:PDF, eh?

[Ohreally_factor]

And as for looking up a particular rule... C'mon, admit it folks - you have the rulebooks all but memorized, and just need to check whether half-ogre gets a 15% or 20% racial modifier to damage with a double-handed flail...

If we didn't have rule books to look up things, what would be the point in arguing over the rules?

Full price? No chance.

[g051051]

There's no printing, storage, or shipping costs associated with the PDF versions. I'd cheerfully start purchasing every one of the books, but no way I'm paying that much for an electronic download. I think my price point for this would be no more than $10. And what about upgrades? Errata? What's the policy on that?

Been using PDFs for a while

[Raleel]

I run an Arcana Evolved game, and Malhavoc releases all of it's stuff in PDF. It's been a godsend in a number of ways. I'm able to reference things just about anywhere I go, and can easily cut and paste sections out for my group in emails (for instance, to clarify rules).

However, while it has it's good parts, it also has it's bad parts. I can still reference a book pretty fast, even with search functionality. Reading ebooks is not really the most comfortable thing, so I tend to not sit down and read it cover to cover without the hard back. PDFs are not as handy for a casual read, like when you are in the bathroom.

They are good, though, and I wish that they would put the PDF on cdrom with the book when I buy.

Re:Been using PDFs for a while

[Enderandrew]

I am also a very big fan of Malhavoc. That is how I became a fan of PDF books for roleplaying in the first place. I also think Monte Cook's classes are better than the core classes.

Re:Been using PDFs for a while

[Red Flayer]

"PDFs are not as handy for a casual read, like when you are in the bathroom."

Yech. Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to be flipping through a book that my GM's been reading on the crapper. I know, the book is probably perfectly clean, but given what my current GM looks like, the visual is disturbing.

Besides, now I'm going to be thinking of unique items like Ragnar's +2 Plunger of Clog Slaying, or Charmin's +5 Vorpal Toilet Paper.

Re:Been using PDFs for a while

[dbIII]

PDFs are not as handy for a casual read, like when you are in the bathroom.

Yes, but the electronic edition doesn't have any fibre. Just eat more fruit so you can get out of there and get on with your life guys!

Re:Been using PDFs for a while

[Scrab]

Just make sure you don't roll a 1 with the Vorpal Toilet Paper, or you're liable to lose a leg...

Re:Been using PDFs for a while

[Ohreally_factor]

But you don't mind handling a wireless-equipped laptop that's made the same trip? =)

Nothing new here...

[dotoole]

Hardly a surprise. A number of technical publishers have been releasing programming books as PDFs lately. No printing costs, no shipping costs, no storage costs. This allows publishers to sell the PDFs online for a fraction the price of hardcopies while having a larger margin on each unit. Want a hardcopy? Print it out and get it bound. Still cheaper than buying a hardcopy (or free if like me you work in an office with a binding machine).

Re:Nothing new here...

[The Evil Couch]

Well, actually, they're selling the PDFs for the same price as the hardcopies. So, it's not cheaper than buying a hardcopy of the book, even if you have an office with a binding machine.

Re:Nothing new here...

[bovinewasteproduct]

A number of technical publishers have been releasing programming books as PDFs lately. QLI/RPGRealms is doing this for T20, their D20 based Traveller system. Almost all of their publications are available in PDF format, at a discount. I've got the hardcover core book, but EVERYTHING else is PDF, including Gateway to Destiny(Original Traveller Universe, Gateway Sector). If you already know how the D20 system works, download T20 lite and have fun... I just wish I could get the Classic Traveller in PDF. Between my LBB(Little Black Books) and double page reprints from Marc Miller, it's a pain to carry them around (The LBB boxes fell apart a LONG time ago..:)). One of these days...

BWP

News?

[l0tu53at3r]

Any self-respecting /.-er(slash)pnprpg-er would already have found all these books AND the "good" ones, plus non-WotC pnprpg books in pdf format. Where? At your local, friendly p2p pointer site. Well, maybe not local.

Re:News?

[IMarvinTPA]

Well, the place certainly isn't in order and tidy.

IMarv

This will defininitely help my database.

[IMarvinTPA]

Oooh, yum. They're last PDFs really helped me update my spell (and other things) database. The Book of Vile Darkness is a 3.0 book, and so are a few of the other titles. Although they could be updated PDFs for 3.5.

They still need to be MUCH cheaper. I already own most of them in Hardback.

IMarv

PDF D&D New??

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had PDF's of all the D&D books for years... and they aren't DRM'd to death...

Re:PDF D&D New??

[CogDissident]

Difference being: Now we can get high quality scans, and just have someone with a DRM ripper distribute it for us, instead of having to scan them ourselves. Thanks WoTC!

Here's how new gaming sessions will go...

[MagicDude]

DM - As you enter the dimly lit room, you see a creature lurking in the corner, laughing in the corner. As you approach it, things to dark for a second and then the entire room is illuminated with a bright azure light. You have encountered - A BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH!!

Fighter - I punch the the screen with my fist.

Rogue - I sneak around back and attempt to unplug it.

Wizard - I cast "Bigby's Typing Hands" to press Ctrl-Alt-Del

Cleric - I cast "curse" on Bill Gates

Sorceress - I summon Tech Support

No way

[Anonymous Coward]

When the electric goes out now, I can light some candles and we can all still play (actually very atmospheric!). Unless you have a photographic memory, huge sod off UPS or laptop with spare batteries, PDF-based books create yet another thing which cannot be relied upon when the utilities fail.

Re:No way

[theRiallatar]

If the electric goes out and it's out for 3-4 hours, chances are you should probably be worrying about the milk in the fridge going rotten before continuing your game.

Re:No way

[Spazmania]

There are few people who can afford D&D books but live in an area where the electric routinely goes out for more than a few minutes. If you're one of them, buy the dead tree versions.

Re:No way

[alzoron]

Kragnar the Barbarian cares not for spoiled milk! Kragnar the Barbarian smashes his enemies! Kragnar the Barbarian laughs at his fallen foes and drinks spoiled milk with glee!

Must be a definition of ALL I'm not familiar with.

[Chainsaw76]

"Wizards has elected not to make the three core rulebooks for Dungeons & Dragons available as eBooks at this time,"

Perhaps the title should be reworded to say, all but the best selling ones.

-Jason

Perfect for video games?

[BlackCobra43]

Then how come most 3rd ed. d&d game have performed poorly while Baldur's Gate 2 (AD&D - the "worst" ruleset according to a good many!) is widely hailed as a spectacular CRPG, if not one of the best games of all time?

Re:Perfect for video games?

[dinsdale3]

Remember a little game called Neverwinter Nights?

(Oh, and Baldur's Gate 2 was based off of 2nd Edition rules, not AD&D)

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Etyenne]

The plot. It was the plot. The rules where clunky, but the plot was engaging.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[tbannist]

I think that's obvious, there are three groups of players who like 3rd Edition: newbies, fanbois and powergamers. It suffers from 2 steps forward, one step back syndrome. Most of the game mechanic changes are reasonably good, I always liked the more intricate miniature rules for combat, for example. However, I loathe the new multi-classing rules, prestige classes are terrible, and some of the weapons are just retarded. Spiked Chain? Mercurial Sword? Cabers?

Couldn't stand the new system.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[frankie]

As an old-school (1977 blue-box) life-long RPGer, I disagree on several points. 3E rulset (or 3.5E, same thing, really ought to be 3.1 from a versioning standpoint) is substantially cleaner and more sensible than any previous DND. 1E/2E multiclass rules were annoying and arbitrary, and dualclass was just plain absurd.

Your post was the first I heard of mercurial sword in a DND context (I don't own any 3E books, just read the SRD. Also, I haven't played PNP in years, and if I did I'd use Fuzion, FATE, or some such) but dissing it out of hand reveals you as a gamer with two significant flaws:

1. You have never read Gene Wolfe's New Sun books
2. You seem incapable of saying "eh, doesn't fit my world design, I'll leave it out". This also applies to prestige classes, obviously

FWIW, BG2 was actually a hybrid v2.1 ruleset, with sorcerer and other features added from 3E. And like most CRPGs, it was good because of the story content. BG2 under 3.5E (or even the ruleset of, say, Deus Ex) would have been just as good, or better.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Rifter13]

Once you throw it on a computer, and let the computer do the calcuations, it really doesn't matter what the ruleset running it is. You are talking about a computer game... not a RPG.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[ravenshrike]

Except the spiked chain is a real weapon. Better known as the Manrikigusari. Mind you, it looks nothing like the illustation in the book, and should probably be brought down to 1d6 damage. But otherwise it's as 'realistic' as anything gets in D&D

Re:Perfect for video games?

[stlhawkeye]

Good question. I'm playing Shadows of Amn right now for about the 4th time. I've had Neverwinter Nights sitting around since it came out and haven't managed to get more than about 2 hours into it. I couldn't tell you why. Partially I dislike that in NWN I can't form a party. Partially I dislike the single-player plot. Partially I dislike the interface.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Rifter13]

You really couldn't be more wrong.

The 3 and 3.5 rules are far more elegant than the 2nd ed rules. Come on, THAC0? To Hit Armor Class Zero system? In D20, your AC just keeps going up, as it gets stronger... unlike THAC0 where it just drops. That was one of the worst rules ever. Read some of Monte Cook's work, about D&D. A LOT of thought went into it. They dropped profecienceies and brought in skills. They added feats to make your HERO stand out from the mundanes. I agree, the mini rules are great, once you figure out Attacks of Opportunity. (one of the few inelegant rules... but it makes sense). Multi classing, prestige classes rule. They make sense. They are based in logic. As for the weapons. The spiked chain is a very cinematic weapon. I am not sure what the other 2 are. If you don't like them, don't introduce them to your game. Not a big deal.

The other thing that the 3rd ed rule did (via D20 open license) is opened up the flood gates for 3rd party add-ons, which is very cool.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[crossmr]

Because the failure or success of those games had nothing to do with the ruleset behind them? There is no causality there. Making that assumption is stupid.

The reason ToEE failed was because Atari should never have produced it and drove it into the ground like they do with just about everything they've touched lately.
In the meantime the fans have gone on to completely draw new maps for that engine and create all new content and are well on their way to releasing B2: The Keep on the Borderlands.

They also released a community patch and fixed up a number of issues in the original game. Honestly I enjoyed ToEE immensely and found the combat to be amazing in it compared to BG.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[The Evil Couch]

Remember a little game called Neverwinter Nights?

Yes. It used the original D&D rules and was the first MMO.

What?

There's ANOTHER ONE? Fuck!

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Ansonmont]

Download the highly rated user created modules, they are much better than the storyline that the game shipped with. You'll be pleasently surprised I think.

-A

Re:Perfect for video games?

[tbannist]

No I haven't read the New Sun books, however, I know that those books are science fiction, set in the far future. I also know that mercury cause crystalization in steel and would cause any low tech weapon to snap easily, rendering it useless, mercury weapons only work in the future tech because plastics can be used to separate the mercury from the steel.

Prestige classes and the new multi-classing encourage class whoring, where you pick the classes that give you the most advantages and least disadvantages. It also severely discourages any multi-classing for spell casting classes because you trade away your highest level spells for every level of that other class. You never get more than you traded away if your primary class is a caster class. No, I definitely prefered the old multi-classing where you didn't trade 1st level spells in one class for 9th level spells in the other. The multi-class system in 3rd Ed only works for non-casters. And prestige classees come in three groups, the ones that make sense, the ones that are lame rip-offs of movie/novel characters, and the ones that just plain ridiculous.

Here's why they don't work. In 2nd Edition if I wanted an Amazon character I picked up the kit at character creation and got the associated benefits and penalties and played my character that way. In 3rd Edition if I wanted to play an Amazon character I make sure I have certain skills and a certain base attack bonus and at level 6, I pick up the Amazon prestige class there by gaining some of the abilities of an Amazon.

The Forgotten Realms book went a long way towards trying to fix this stupidity with their region system where there were kit-like details for each region. However, prestige classes as implemented are a bad addition, not a good one. The bigest part may be that very few of them were truly prestigious in any way, shape, or form. They were just mediocre replacements for a system that some people thought was too complicated or too unbalanced.

There were too many small problems with the game that should have been fixed, but Hasbro bought WotC and cut a year off the development time for 3rd Edition and it shows.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[TacNuke]

I agree completely, being an "old school" lifer gamer also. (circa 1980, had the red basic and blue advanced or intermediate box sets) We had and have a very good time with all the different versions of D&D including 3.0 and 3.5. We leave out whatever rules we don't like, use whatever spam books we think will be fun. Even use old 2.0 modules. Only thing that you have to change is the monster stats. The point is to have fun with whatever group of people you are with.

On topic, PDF D&D books is an excellent idea. Out here in the boondocks its hard to come by the books. Amazon is always an option I guess. But downloadable and searchable is a great idea.

I like to have a hard copy to look at (call me old school). Printing the books off for personal use would be a bit of a pain.....not to mention possibly expensive. So, to sum up, PDF books=good idea. Will I purchase a PDF version, doubtful.

FWIW

Tac

Re:Perfect for video games?

[frankie]

know that mercury cause crystalization in steel

If the sourcebook explicitly refers to it as common mercury, then at worst this is a point discontinuity. Replace the text with "quick-mithril" or some such fantasy element and you're good to go. Even better, just don't allow mercurials and get over it.

encourage class whoring

I think I've identified the problem: YOU ARE GAMING WITH THE WRONG PEOPLE. Min-maxing can be done in ANY ruleset, the correct answer is that your group makes the offender redo their character.

definitely prefered the old multi-classing where you didn't trade 1st level spells in one class for 9th level spells in the other

You mean the old multi-classing with MAXIMUM LEVEL LIMITS so your demihuman caster could NEVER gain the top spells? The highest a multi-wizard (elf) could go is 15th. I really cannot see what you are complaining about. It makes no sense.

And prestige classes come in three groups

I repeat, you really need to learn the phrase "eh, doesn't fit my world design, I'll leave it out".

Side note: New Sun is "set in the far future" the exact same way that Star Wars is "a long time ago". Not that they have a lot in common, but both are science fantasy, where realism takes a back seat to storytelling.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Cadallin]

ummm, 2nd Ed. was still called AD&D. I have a quite large collection of 2nd ed. books right next to me to prove it.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Cadallin]

In general I have found that these debates stem from a number of misunderstandings:

1. First, a defense, or at least a justification of thac0, it helps immensly if you understand where it comes from. The majority of the combat rules from 1st and 2nd Ed. AD&D come from Chainmail, which in turn, are derived from the naval wargamming simulations Gargax and Arneson were into before creating Chainmail. They didn't create the rules out of whole cloth. For those that say that it's stupid and akward applied to personal combat, I agree, which is why clever GMs the world over had been creating base attack bonus and inverting the AC table on their own. (on the other hand, the suggested rules, which converted to base attack bonus said that a fighter should never have an attack bonus > +20 are a good idea, because it means that certain monster are always going to be horrifyingly scary.)

2. The thing those of us (myself included) who pine over TSR and 1st and 2nd ed. isn't so much Thac0 and profiencies, it's the content and campaign settings. Sure there are some cheesy ones (Mystara), but the good ones are solid gold. Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Dark Sun. And the Modules! Tons and Tons of Modules! Undermountain (which is a fantastic dungeon crawl BTW) Dragon Mountain, The Spider Queen Series. Now modules are almost nonexistant. It's all Splat books with Prestige classes.

To be honest, I'd be perfectly fine with 3rd Ed, except it's actually easier to go out and collect classic mods and play 2nd than it is to find quality adventures for 3rd.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Rifter13]

I can't say I completely agree with #1, though I understand it. But, saying they took it from chainmail, which they pulled from a naval game, defeats the point that they had a rule set that was convoluted, and weird... and kept using it. And, it kept being used until some fresh blood came in, and fixed it.

For #2, I agree completely, well, almost... I loved Red Steel... which is part of Mystara. I love it so much, that when I play on a new world, I throw in that part, with home brew rules, somewhere on every planet. :-) But, I pretty much toss the rest of the Mystara stuff. Red Steel fits pretty well on any coast. I also agree about other supplements. Planescape is pure gold, though, misunderstood by a great many. D&D has never been really good at handling a political game, and I honestly don't believe that many players are good at it. I have all of those worlds you mention, and others. In both 2nd ed, and 3rd ed. (Ravenloft, the Dark Sun dragon mag articles, Dragonlance, a little spell jammer (I know, I am one of the few that really liked it). Though, go into 3rd ed, and I think that Eberron is my favorite world, of all time.

I don't know how you can say there are not more modules. I have probably 20 d20 based modules, a crap load of dungeon magazines, as well as another 20 of those smaller "boosters"
or books with short adventures in them. And, I have never even TOUCHED a dungepm crawl classic... and have you ever seen the world's largest dungeon?

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Cadallin]

yes, but they were Wargamers, what do you expect? :) But seriously, apparently in its original naval simulation context it actually had some degree of logic behind it, AC corresponded at least somewhat to physical size, therefore big ships had high AC.

Basically, yes AD&D was cludgy. (Let's see, it had: 1. A stat system. 2. A class system. 3. A proficiency system. 4. A SKILL system, just for Thieves and Bards, and 5. A magic system completely unrelated to all the others) On the plus side however, all of this has allowed for all of the evolution of game design we've seen for the last 25 years.

Well, DCCs aren't by Wizards, and neither is the WLD (AEG) and WLD has enough problems of it's own. Listening to the Podcast has been extremely entertaining, but it definatly informed me that the book is exceptionaly badly edited, although i'll probably buy a copy eventually.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[dinsdale3]

Well, it was called "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition".

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Anonymous Coward]

TB, I really would like to hear what the heck you meant about 2E multiclass casters with 9th level spells. -F

Re:Perfect for video games?

[KDR_11k]

BG2 isn't based on a standard ruleset, I've seen some call it 2.5th edition. IIRC it's 2nd ed AD&D mixed with some 3rd ed D&D rules and classes.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bannister, please answer my question. What in the outer planes did you mean about the old multiclassing rules?

Re:Perfect for video games?

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on Mr Neosis, don't act shy all of a sudden.

Re:Perfect for video games?

[tbannist]

There were a number of cases where multi-classed mages could get 9th level spells. There was the optional high ability score bonus, where an elf with an int of 19 (iirc) or higher could reach level 18. There were the Forgotten Realms High Magic rules for elves, which allowed elves to exceed the normal level limits and the level limits in Krynn were different for each order of mages. If I remember correctly Sylvanesti White Mages could progress to level 20. Additionally, many DMs would allow a character to exceed the level limit by 1 level per wish spell cast for that purpose.

Of course, most campaigns never reached the lofty heights where the level limits really came into play, and many of those that did, ignored the level limits any way.

Good side

[Lord_Dweomer]

I guess the good side of this is that they'll be a lot more D&D books available for pirating, and they'll be easier to find.

D&D was the one thing I never pirated materials for but ever since this 3.5 bullshit I've wanted to do nothing but download their books.

Its such a shame the Gygax's got so screwed from what D&D has become.

Close.

[BlackCobra43]

All but the *most expensive* ones.

Pay a premium for digital goods?

[Alan Shutko]

I just checked, and for Frostburn (for instance), I could save $13 by buying it in hardcover form from amazon rather than buying the PDF. Sure, a PDF is more convenient in some cases, but this is ridiculous.

Ideally, I'd want some kind of subscription service. Let me sign up with DTRPG, authorize my credit card, and whenever a new book came out $5-$10 came off my card and I got the PDF right away. If they're worried about people pirating the PDF, a lower price would help that to... for $5 bucks I'd just give books away if I wanted to share the rules.

To Bad

[fullphaser]

That some gnome will come along with his +2 battle hammer and smash the computer with the PDF.

Re:To Bad

[polar red]

no ... a sprite with a +2 InternetExplorer ...

Re:Must be a definition of ALL I'm not familiar wi

[IMarvinTPA]

I think they mean the PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual I. But you can get basically free copies of these in the SRD site. It won't be PDF, but they'll be good enough. Or use http://www.d20srd.org/ for your core book needs. Except for the XP chart, starting gold for high level characters, and some WOTC monsters.

IMarv

About the pricing and a few questions...

[WinPimp2K]

Do you game strictly at home, or do you ever go to a game store that provides places for gamers to game?

If you ever go into a store, how many copies of the DnD books does the store carry?

Have you considered how much of the store's capital is tied up in those books as a percentage of their total inventory?

How about the square footage to display the books?

Now how do you expect the store's owner to feel if those books were available as eBooks for one fourth of the hardcopy retail price? (Game stores generally do not have the option of returning unsold books for full credit the way bookstores do)

Generally speaking the surviving game stores are on pretty tight margins - it would not take much to tip them into the red. WOTC sells lots more than DnD to those stores - doing things that may put their customers out of business is generally a Bad Thing.

So, while it may look like simple greed to you, there are other considerations that enter into the pricing.

Re:About the pricing and a few questions...

[TopShelf]

That's an excellent point, one that's often referred to as "channel conflict" in the wholesale biz. You don't to piss off your current customer base (bookstores and gaming stores) unless you're sure the new form (PDF's) will bring in more profit than you lose with the existing base.

Re:About the pricing and a few questions...

[Chazmyrr]

Yeah, well they don't have to worry about any conflict. You have to actually sell some of the PDFs to conflict with the existing base, and at $30 each, that isn't going to happen.

Actually I wouldn't buy the hardcover books at those prices either. I might be tempted to buy the hardcovers at $15-$20. I'd never pay more than $5-$10 for the PDFs.

Big Deal

[Mycroft_514]

Our version of Role playing has been available in PDF format since 2000. And it is not DRMed, and it is discounted in that format, since most of the cost of the paper version was always printing costs.

https://secure.slickwebsitedevelopment.com/bunkerh illgames.com/description.php?II=1082&UID=200606160 823464.21.222.125FRP Made Easy: A Real Fantasy

A complete game system in 1 volume at 10$, what more could you ask for?

Saving Costs...

[MrLizard]

A lot of people here seem to be sans clue about the 'costs' of physical books. Books are sold to distributors at about 25% of retail cost (and there has to be a small profit on that), so, if you just cut out the physical costs of the books, you will save about 15-20 percent. Furthermore, if PDFs are significantly cheaper than physical books, this undercuts retailers, who get angry, and stop ordering the product. If brick-and-morter stores stop buying, this cuts out the main source for new players entering the hobby. Keeping the physical distribution chain alive is key to the long-term survival of the genre.

Re:Saving Costs...

[evought]

I've worked alongside the publishing industry before. The big win with an electronic format is lack of risk. They already have the content and they have a marginal printing/storage cost. They do not have the risk of printing 1000 copies that sit in a warehouse or get returned by the retail chain. That is why many publishers (e.g. Baen Books, O'Reilley with some titles, AWL with some titles, many small publishers, etc.) give away the PDF or HTML versions of their books now. As other posters have said, many people consider the electronic form a bonus on top of the physical book they own. People who are happy with the electronic version never would have bought a hard copy anyway, but, if you hook them, they might in the future.

Re:Saving Costs...

[taustin]

You are apparently unfamiliar with the gaming market. The physical distribution chain has been dead for years. It was the result of a long, lingering illness. Which is to say, it was never much of a market to begin with.

Re:Saving Costs...

[MrLizard]

I suppose I'm imagining the three stores I go to locally to buy my P&P books then. (And I'm stuck in semi-rural Indiana, too.) I'm clearly very deluded. I wonder what they are really? Vacant lots? Porno shops? Seedy biker bars? I may never know...

As to my unfamiliarty with the gaming market...I've been actively writing in it for six years. I'm well aware the b&m market is dying, but it's not dead yet, and anything which can be done to revive it...or just keep it on life support for as long as possible...is a good thing. If the hobby is reduced entirely to PDFs (of which I've also authored a few), there will be no new blood. You have to know you want something to look for it online.

Re:Saving Costs...

[MrLizard]

I always though the ideal might be a code number or the like, concealed from casual view (under a sticker, etc) in the printed books. If you enter the code number, you get a watermarked copy of the PDF either free or for a nominal cost. (2-3 dollars)

Re:Saving Costs...

[RedWizzard]

Books are sold to distributors at about 25% of retail cost (and there has to be a small profit on that), so, if you just cut out the physical costs of the books, you will save about 15-20 percent.

But no distributor or retailer is required. So they could be selling the PDFs at 25% or less of the retail cost. You're right about them not wanting to undercut the retailers though.

Here's the deal.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they're going to load them up with DRM and make it all crippleware, I'll pay 1/10 of the price of a hardbound copy.

If they remove the crippleware and sell them as straight PDFs, I'll pay 1/2 of the price of a hardbound copy.

If they sell crippleware versions at the same price of the hardbound copy, then I'll wait until someone cracks the DRM and posts them on the internet, and I'll get them for free.

That's how it works. It would be refreshing if some publishers realized that, but it's no big deal from my end.

As greedy as the RIAA

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see the download costs what to distribute? A fraction the paper of the actual book does and they don't discount them at all? Dumb. I'll stick with buying the books and *ahem* making my own backup copies via "photocopy" machine.

Cuz, ya know, those cheetos are dangerous! To books, I mean.

Another media company fails to get it

[lilnobody]

This shows foresight, as WotC hasn't had to deal with piracy for as long as the music companies have. They must be aware just how freely their books are available on limewire, and as long as people want them digitally, they'll sell them instead of not even have a piece of the action. Good! I imagine we'll even be able to search the text, once the DRM is cracked--most excellent.

What they don't get is that I download copies to supplement the physical copies I own, so I can look up something on the road from a book I don't have as I prepare the next session for my group. They are seeing it as a replacement, as it costs as much as a book.

I'm not planning to pay as much as a book costs to get something that isn't as good as one. Back to limewire for me. But their quick acceptance of digital distribution, unlike that of most media companies, leaves me hope that they will get it before 4.0...

nobody

Wrong on both counts

[BlackCobra43]

How is "many" claiming it to be the best contrary to "many feel it the wordt"? These statements can coexist. Baldu's Gate 2 is indeed based on 2nd edition rules - but it's AD&D 2nd edition. This is the most complex ruleset there is and a lot of players complained it was too complex - hence the simplifying andadoption of a simple d20 system for 3rd edition.

Three core rule books

[Anonymous Coward]

The three core rule books are already on the WoTC website. They are just waiting for you to download them.

Full price???

[cavtroop]

So lets see, 1) Very low manufacturing costs. The content is already there, and making the PDF is a onetime process. Cost: $0 2) Very low distribution costs. Bandwidth is cheap, and how much does it really cost to download a 30MB book? Cost: $.50 3) Zero storage costs. No warehouse space taken by product. Cost: $0 And they want to charge me full price for this? Yawn, call me back when they are cheaper. this just seems like more profit for the man. Heck, I already own all the paper D20 books I want. PDF's would be nice (especially if searchable), but not at full price. I'd pay probably $4.99-$10 each, for a downloadable, searchable PDF file. No more.

it has arrived

[Anonymous Coward]

The days of being able to pirate D&D are HERE

New?

[bombshelter13]

How is this news? All the D&D3.5E stuff (as well as the 3rd ed, 2nd ed, 1st ed stuff and the whole Palladium/Steve Jackson/White Wolf catalog as well) has been available in PDF format on #rpgbookz on irc.enerla.net for years! I've never heard of these 'DriveThruRPG' guys, though. Ohhhhh. Sorry. I didn't notice the word 'selling'.

Bah!

[Odin_Tiger]

I thought they meant 'available in pdf' as in 'free to download'. Maybe someday I'll be able to afford to learn that game...

Re:Bah!

[Anonymous Coward]

The SRD is available for free at a number of websites, including Wizards. The SRD is all of the base rules minus some specific trademarked names and such. All you need to learn and play for free.

Re:Bah!

[MrLizard]

The full rules are already available online, legally.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/s rd35

Re:Bah!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what? If you don't have the $20-50 to spend on something you would (might) find worthwhile entertainment, then why don't you quit posting on Slashdot, work some more at what makes you more money (for the love of it or not), then buy the books. Bitching about something as nominal as the cost of the book is just juvenile. If you're a poor student, then get a job. If you've gotta job, and it doesn't pay enough, work harder to be better at what you do, and get a better, higher paying job.

It's no one's responsibility to make sure you can afford a particular company's products except your own (assuming you actually want them), so stop bitching.

Re:Bah!

[Saurian_Overlord]

Also, try used book stores if you'd rather have an actual book. Or the library. You're likely to be limited to older editions, but i've seen D&D books being sold for $3 or less. In fact, the one D&D book i own (i'm not a player, but i've always been interested...just never took the time) is the main "Player's Handbook," and i paid something like 50 cents at a local thrift store.

wowza!

[Anonymous Coward]

I cast a level 5 spell of neato great!

Roll your own

[sckeener]

(I'm buzzing. I always love it when I submit something that is accepted.)

I recently looked into rolling my own PDF copies of my gaming books. Here is the thread on Enworld.

For those that don't want to click on that link, I basically talked to 3 IP lawyers about how to do it. It all comes down to the receipt. You have to have the receipt to prove purchase. A scanned receipt is fine as long as it shows your name and the product. Basically you are making your own watermarked pdfs. One IP lawyer with 20 years in the software IP field told me a horror story about how you could have the original software CD, license #, have the software registered with the vendor, and you would still need to produce the receipt to prove ownership. Without the receipt it could be stolen.....

Re:Roll your own

[crossmr]

Yeah..or you could just not care and do it anyway.
Its your stuff.
Unless you're caught distributing it, I don't think it would ever even remotely come into question.

Re:Roll your own

[sckeener]

I've had it happen. I sat down at a table and a player didn't want to play with me simply because I was using a laptop with legal pdfs. Gaming is a social activity. It isn't like I just want to listen to some music alone in my room. I am going to want to be able to access the data when I am surround by other people.

Re:Roll your own

[crossmr]

If someone is going to be that picky, don't play with them, they're probably going to be pricks the entire session. That example also doesn't contradict what I said, you had legal PDFs and if he jumps all the hoops so will he, how would that have made the outcome any different? It won't.

I've never run into a single person who cared if what I had was in PDF form or paper form as long as they contained the same information.

And someone getting picky at a gaming table isn't the same as getting busted for copyright infringement, that was what I meant when I said no one would care about them.

Re:Roll your own

[sckeener]

I didn't have a way to prove they were legal at the time at the game table. I didn't have any receipt and they weren't watermarked/drm'ed. Admittedly the same thing could be said about any book too...without a receipt as far as anyone at a gaming table knew, the book is stolen. You run into those sort of pricks all the time with online files....it is the same sort of deal as some DJs or music artists not liking anyone that has MP3s...viewing them all as crooks. I'd prefer if I sat down at a convention with a game designer to not have things go south the moment he hears I have my entire gaming collection on my computer. I'd rather him say cool.....

Re:Roll your own

[Ohreally_factor]

It sounds like you ran into that one guy. Which guy is that? The guy you need to show the receipt to prove that you bought a donut. (About 1:35 into the clip)

This just shows how slow WoTC has been

[Phase Shifter]

Steve Jackson Games has been doing this for a while now, with their own games as well as others.

This may be a big deal for D&D fans, but for people who play RPGs in general it's nothing new.

Re:This just shows how slow WoTC has been

[DragonWriter]

WotC has provided some D&D books as PDFs for some time, and SJG doesn't (or at least hasn't for long, its been a couple months since I was on e23, and e23's blocked where I am right now) make its whole catalog available as PDFs. There are lots of publishers that do release everything as PDFs in the RPG business, including lots of PDF-only publishers, but WotC is far and away the biggest player in the business, so this is pretty significant.

Books with free ebooks

[rayde]

i think the paper books should come with a card or something for a free copy of the ebook, might lead to more ebook only purchases too.

this whole idea seems alright to me, but personally i'd prefer a paper book to an ebook anyday. stacks of books on the table covered with snackfoods is part of the magic.

What about classic 1st edition stuff?

[Cy Sperling]

That is fine and all, but where are official PDFs of the old school TSR series of books and modules? I would love to get some PDFs of my old favorites like Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, Queen of the Demomweb Pits, White Plume Mountain etc. etc. I know they have just a couple up on the site, but why not republish it all?

Re:What about classic 1st edition stuff?

[Anonymous Coward]

The website www.rpgnow.com sells the old AD&D stuff for $5 per item.

P2P

[Jaysyn]

Runs & checks Shareaza... Yup, they are all availible!

Re:Must be a definition of ALL I'm not familiar wi

[MrLizard]

Given the majority of the rules material is already free online in the form of the SRDs, making the core rulebooks downloadable is a bit redundant...

Prometheus instead of d20

[wynterx]

Note that it is the d20 trademark licence not the OGL that forbids the mention of anything to do with character creation, level advancement etc.

Various groups (such as http://www.prometheusgaming.com/) have attempted (or are attempting) to create a different set of documents, logos, trademarks etc that give a full set of rules (based on the SRD) without any encumbrances like that.

In other words, you can take any of the SRD stuff, add whatever you like to it (including character generation) and publish within the terms of the OGL. You just can't call it "d20".

As an aside, there used to be a site/group called "Twenty Siders" which seems to have disappeared. Perhaps they sailed a little too close to the wind?

Cost of production is lower

[artemis67]

and lost sales due to online piracy is higher, so it probably balances out, anyway.

I don't care for D&D myself, but within five minutes of me reading this headline to a cow-orker, he found them on a bittorrent tracking site and was downloading them.

Re:Cost of production is lower

[tnakilper]

Your friend most likely found one of the thousands of available pirated RPG scans that have been available for years via p2p networks and other sources. Virtually any RPG (including many from defunct small / indie producers from the late 70's & 80's) can be found if you have no moral qualms about using them. I'm not advocating this, just pointing out that the scans are out there and readily available while I don't think most of the titles in WoC's DRM protected release are (yet).

Reason for DRM, same price, etc.

[Psykechan]

OK, I see a lot of people complaining that these are DRM encumbered and that they are the same price as the hardcover copies. There is no benefit to purchasing these over the printed books. Well there are slight benefits such as serchable text but that's about it.

I agree though, it's not worth it. The solution is to not buy it.

I am sure that people have been demanding a PDF release for quite a while. This is pretty much the only way to do it. Release it as restricted PDF to cut down on "sharing" of the files is obvious but why make it the same price as the paper material? Simply to not piss off the small game vendors.

Yes the local RPG outlets are usually Mom & Pop style stores owned and operated by fans. They have a few rooms in back where you can get together with other players and play a game; if you need more players or are looking for a group, they offer a bulletin board. This is where new players learn how to play.

They have been slowly going the way of the video game arcade. The difference is that video games could easily move right into the home. RPGs, a social experience, aren't so lucky. Role-playing cannot survive in an online only world. I've tried dozens of times including currently with WoW but it isn't the same. It's like online poker; the mechanics are there but the social aspect is gone.

Now I personally hate D&D, as well as the whole D20 system, but it does bring new blood into the hobby. (So does LARPing but that's another story) RPG based video games also do but afterwards players need a place to meet up with others. These game stores are exactly that.

If people purchase their books and resources online exclusively, the struggling game stores lose even more money and close. Once they close, the gamers either play in their homes or leave the hobby entirely. Either way, there is no new blood infused into the hobby. No people to buy the RPG books be it printed or PDF and the game industry suffers.

So if you like the hobby, go support your local game store. Buy your overpriced splat books there instead of online. Have a chat with the owner, he's probably there. I don't think that his story will differ much from what you've just read here.

Re:Must be a definition of ALL I'm not familiar wi

[DragonWriter]

Most of the content of the three core books (and some from others) is available for free (free as in beer, and under a license inspired by Free Software licenses, though arguably not completely Free in that sense) in RTF (the official release) as the d20 SRD, there are also free PDF versions available from third-parties under the same license.

Whats the Big Deal?

[Durrill]

You've been able to get D&D books as PDFs for years. Just check your local torrent reservoir.

Re:Full price? No chance.

[crossmr]

Any errate I've seen released is often released free of charge through the publisher's website in a small PDF with a list of corrections. I can't see how that would change.

Buy a book, get the PDF too?

[Rifter13]

Why is it, that you have to buy the book, and then buy the .pdf seperate. Like many here, I LIKE a book. I like the solid feel, I like to just read through a book. BUT, there are times that a PDF would be handy. I wish that WotC would put a CD in the back of each book, with the PDF version of that book included... or put a password in the front of the book, to get to a specific location to download the .pdf.

When I build a character, it is really handy to have their class/prestige class printed out, and included with your character sheet, as well as spell descriptions, etc.

Wow! If I could only get other RPG books as PDFs!

[incorporalis]

This is welcome news. I would love to see some of the older gamer books available in PDF format:

1. Rolemaster
2. Earthdawn
3. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st ed.
4. And D&D Basic Ed.

It would be wonderful to have it all available at my finger tips. Same with Adventure Modules. Wasn't there a game called Fusion that did this?

Rules != Fun Game

[nick_davison]

Baldur's Gate could have used the original D&D basic set rules and still been a good game - because story, content, game design, user interface, graphics engine, etc. were all there. Similarly, should there ever be one universally identified "The Greatest Rulest Of All Time" and it be applied to a half-assed, buggy game with two dimensional characters and bad voice acting, it will still suck.

Rules are a nice gimmick. They make it even more of a must buy for people who are already fans of the ruleset and want to experience a new adventure with a rule system that makes sense to them. They add to the chances of the game being reasonably well balanced (though by no means guarantee it when almost every combat concept can get converted to a video game but a large number of spells just don't convert over - meaning combat vs. spell casting classes may need a rebalance). They can also add a huge gameworld in say the case of the Forgotten Realms that can add a huge amount of depth. And, finally, they are somewhat reassuring to people who don't necessarily know the ruleset because they at least imply the basic ruleset has been tested elsewhere first.

But, gimmick aside, the statistics a game engine uses to determine what can and cannot happen are relatively minor compared to all the other aspects that go in to a great fun RPG. I'd take a huge game with great AI, a great user interface, great characters, an amazing story, excellent pacing and sound/graphics that really drew me in over a great ruleset trapped in a clunky game every single time.

D20 SRD

[DrJAKing]

The D20 system is already online, it's open source:

http://www.d20srd.org/

Almost every RPG book there ever was and will be gets scanned in and put on usenet/irc (see also comics). Can't be much fun playing without a big pile of books though.

Bout time

[AppyPappy]

Goldang, slap my ass and call me Sally. This is better than a fried pickle at the fair. I won't have to carry that crap aroun in the truck no more. When Wally wants to throw one a them spells at Bobby Lee, he won't have to find all 'em books. He kin jus pull it up on the tv screen. It won't take so long to wallop poor ole Bobby Lee's little wimpy ass troll back to garage door with my cipherin double-ought spell from my old fearsome ass-kickin chicken. Course, we won't get as drunk no more cause it won't take as long. Price of progress I reckon.

Electronic format is great...

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

...but I don't know about PDFs. Direct dead-tree to electronic conversion isn't all that great an idea for any kind of reference book, especially this kind. It would be better if there were some kind of specialized interface where you could look up specific rules at a glance. Drop-down menus with subcategories to bring up any information you want.

Sell book + PDF together

[Asmor]

Here's an idea.

Set up WotCbooks.com. Sell books on their at cover price. When you buy the book, you're given an instant PDF download, and the normal off-the-shelf version is shipped out to you.

I defy anyone to find a flaw in that plan which doesn't exist in the current system. No, the fact that you can't double dip customers isn't a flaw.

Heh, heh, heh

[Eradicator2k3]

Torrent Link Please....

btw

[petermgreen]

i've found if using the quick login fields you can just ignore the captcha.

Search!

[Anonymous Coward]

cool now my pirated pdf collection can be searched

Re:Wow! If I could only get other RPG books as PDF

[muridae]

Rolemaster does publish alot of their stuff online now. Just looking at copies of Arms Law available, there is the '99, '03, and '05 versions available in PDF form. I can't find a copy of many of the source books, though. Guess my paper copy of Eidolon will just have to survive a while longer.

Pity the pdf books are easier to find then players.

There's only one thing I hate about eBooks.

[guardian-ct]

So many of them cost almost as much, or more than, the original paper editions, and can't be easily moved from one computer to another. Several of the formats can't even be quoted from without opening an editor, and typing the quote by hand.

More expensive, and less functional than paper is not encouraging the adoption of ebooks.

There's only one publisher that I know of that does ebooks right, and that's www.baen.com's webscription service. $15 for 4-6 ebooks, in HTML and other formats with the DRM set to "no protection".

Full price and DRM?

[Bartmoss]

While it'd be great to have the D&D stuff in electronic form (for searching and for protability), I am surely not going to pay full price for something that is DRM protected on top! If I could save half the money, okay, but like this? No, no, no.

Nice try, bette rluck next time.