Interview With Linux Flash Player's Lead Engineer

An anonymous reader writes, "Ryan Stewart of ZDNet has an interview with Mike Melanson, the lead engineer behind Adobe's upcoming Flash Player 9 for Linux. It covers what the plans are for the player, what kinds of things won't be in the Linux player that are in the other players, and ways to give Adobe input on the Linux player."

Comments

Cool, corporate webmasters'

[Ph33r th3 g(O)at]

favorite eyecandy machine, complete with a new spyware vector and unblockable ads is coming to Linux. Please join me in celebration of this auspicious day.

Re:Cool, corporate webmasters'

[Eideewt]

"...unblockable ads...."

Perhaps you are not familiar with Firefox's Adblock extension?

Re:Cool, corporate webmasters'

[RickBauls]

This is why anyone with a little common sense would have FlashBlock.

Re:Cool, corporate webmasters'

[MS-06FZ]

Try blocking the ads when the entire site you're trying to view is in Flash...

Re:Cool, corporate webmasters'

[base3]

Exactly--I have flashblock installed, but more and more am having to run Flash crap to see content. Fortunately, downloadable versions of the things locked up behind Flash are usually available with a little googling.

ALSA support? YAY!

[Zarhan]

Good, no need to start my browser with alsa-oss anymore if I want the mixer to work (So that multiple sound sources can play at the same time), or having the flash hogging the sound device.

Re:ALSA support? YAY!

[Terminus32]

Ah, so that's why I keep having to re-start Firefox to play a Flash movie after i've been using XMMS or MPlayer!

He threatens me

[BadAnalogyGuy]

How big is the team working on the Linux version of the Flash Player?

There is a core team working on porting and testing. There are various volunteers within the organization who have jumped into the effort out of general platform enthusiasm; and if we need any advice with particular areas, we bring in people from the rest of the Flash Player team as needed.

Of course, we're not making cheese sandwiches here. Throwing more programmers, any programmers, at the problem will not necessarily speed the process along.

Shit.

Let me be the first to say

[Anonymous Coward]

About bloody time!

Re:no hard questions asked....

[Lussarn]

Is there a flash 9 for Linux, where?

Re:no hard questions asked....

[QuantumG]

Or, ya know, release the source code so the community can fix it.

64 bits please...

[tomstdenis]

So tired of shit not being developed for x86_64. Get with the times. Didn't RTFA but I assume they'll ignore it like they always have...

Tom

Re:64 bits please...

[Rik Sweeney]

I'm not 100% sure if this will work but why don't you just cut your 64bit processor in half use dual core instead?

Re:64 bits please...

[ppatrice]

I use this to have flash working with my 64 bits firefox. It works... more or less, it crashes firefox sometimes :-(

Re:64 bits please...

[Ixe]

Yes, please. I signed the online petition, I begged on the forums, now I've pretty much just given up. I have to use another computer or reboot to another operating system whenever I want to go to a site that requires flash. There are more 64bitters than people think.

Re:64 bits please...

[SuseLover]

Why does anyone need a 64-bit version anyhow? Will it need to use more than 4 Gb RAM? I don't get this when 32-bit versions will run perfectly fine on 64-bit systems. I always thought that 64-bit didn't mean faster, it just allows more memory addressing.

Re:64 bits please...

[tomstdenis]

Assuming you're not trolling...

You can't call 32-bit code [that is, code compiled with 32-bit pointers and registers in mind] directly from a 64-bit application. Even if you don't use 4GB of memory you still have 64-bit pointers [well 48-bit on AMD64]. Then you have registers. The ABI [application binary interface] for x86_64 specifies that you pass a certain # of arguments as registers and not on the stack, etc.

You need a "thunking" layer to call 32-bit code [like WoW ... er Windows on Windows when 16-bit device drivers were the norm].

Assuming Flash isn't all spaghetti code it should really be a matter of just rebuilding with a 64-bit compiler against 64-bit libraries.

Tom

Re:64 bits please...

[eloki]

Why does anyone need a 64-bit version anyhow? Will it need to use more than 4 Gb RAM?

This gets asked over and over. No, we don't expect a performance increase. But right now you cannot use the 32-bit Flash plugin in a 64-bit browser (well there does exist a hacky solution, but in the general case it doesn't work). Instead I have to keep a 32-bit chroot around to run things like Flash, some codecs and OpenOffice. Too many people say "but it won't run any faster", but that isn't the point. I just don't want to keep a chroot for measly Flash, any more than I would want to be running 32 bit grep or cat from coreutils. Not because a 64-bit version would be faster, but simply for consistency with the rest of the 64-bit programs on my machine. For all those people who have trouble with the concept, when you see people asking for amd64 binaries, don't think "64-bit wouldn't help", think of it as binaries for another architecture, like arm or ppc.

Re:64 bits please...

[SuseLover]

OK, then use 32-bit version of the stuff that calls it. I currently run 32-bit firefox, with 32-bit java and everything work fine. Except for our 64-bit engineering apps taht need massive RAM, everything else is done using 32-bit versions. Whats the problem?

Re:64 bits please...

[gmack]

Except that the difference in bytesize is not the only differnece between x86 and x86_64. X86_64 also fixes the register starvation issues that have plagued x86 since the XT days. Less register swapping often means more efficianct use of the rest of the CPU.

Re:64 bits please...

[/ASCII]

Because you have to use a carpet knife to get the cut right (or else you'd get one 30-bit and one 34-bit processor), and Delta Airlines don't allow you to use carpet knives any more.

Blame Osama.

Re:64 bits please...

[Octorian]

Because all these Linux users just discovered "64-bit" yesterday, and don't understand that it can actually co-exist with "32-bit" stuff on the same kernel, and the same userland (no, you do NOT need to chroot it), and only needs a different set of libraries (i.e. "/usr/lib" vs "/usr/lib64").

Solaris, for example, has been 64-bit for quite some time. However, even with a 64-bit kernel & drivers, most of the userland is still 32-bit. They provide 64-bit versions of the necessary libraries, however, so that you can build 64-bit applications when it benefits you. (and when it doesn't benefit you, its just wasteful of system resources)

Then again, SPARC isn't as braindead as classic x86, and you can build 32-bit SPARC binaries that take advantage of all the extra instructions of the sparcv9 (UltraSPARC/64-bit) architecture. x86_64 added a lot of things beyond 64-bit'ness that probably improves performance, but I wonder how much of that (i.e. like extra registers), if any of it, you could even use in 32-bit code.

Re:64 bits please...

[Abcd1234]

Assuming Flash isn't all spaghetti code it should really be a matter of just rebuilding with a 64-bit compiler against 64-bit libraries.

Yeah, it's rarely that simple. Many people use ints where they should be using function-specific types (eg, size_t, time_t, etc). Not to mention the old standby of casting an int to a pointer or vice-versa.

Re:64 bits please...

[Crazy Eight]

Naw, everyone clamoring for a 64-bit Flash plugin knows 32-bit code is executable. It's just so wastefull to keep a 32-bit duplicate of a 64-bit distro installed. If Nvidia can release 64-bit graphics drivers I don't see why Adobe can't do the same for Flash. Then again, those of us bitching should step up with a wrapper. If mplayer can tap windows codecs written for a different platform...

Re:64 bits please...

[eloki]

it can actually co-exist with "32-bit" stuff on the same kernel, and the same userland (no, you do NOT need to chroot it)

Yes, I admit this is technically true, and the magic simply works by having a different dynamic linker for 32-bit and 64-bit binaries. However the thing is that I already have a 64-bit browser in /usr/bin (yes, using x86-64 would be faster than x86 for that), so I don't want to have a second browser just for running things like Flash, irrespective of whether it's chrooted. As it is there are hassles like making different profiles in Firefox for the 64-bit and 32-bit versions to use so they don't clobber each other, which means bookmarks, preferences, history etc. aren't shared. I could automate copying these back and forth in a messy way, but it sure isn't better than simply having a single 64-bit browser that can run Flash.

x86_64 added a lot of things beyond 64-bit'ness that probably improves performance, but I wonder how much of that (i.e. like extra registers), if any of it, you could even use in 32-bit code.

Sounds like you agree that amd64 is different to other architectures like sparc, in that most programs perform as well or better in 64-bit mode, not just ones with needs for large data etc. Perhaps then it makes sense to reverse the bias compared to sparc - all programs on x86-64 should probably be 64-bit unless there are significant benefits to making a particular app 32-bit.

I've thought about the idea of using extra registers in 32-bit mode.... but the resulting binary wouldn't run on an ordinary x86 anymore since it would address registers that don't exist. And once you're incompatible, you have a new architecture. Which we could then call x86-64... bringing us back to where we started ;)

Re:64 bits please...

[Octorian]

> I've thought about the idea of using extra registers in 32-bit mode.... but the resulting > binary wouldn't run on an ordinary x86 anymore since it would address registers that don't > exist. And once you're incompatible, you have a new architecture. Which we could then call > x86-64... bringing us back to where we started ;)

Actually, you wouldn't be completely incompatible. Of course this is all assuming that you could use the extra AMD64 features in 32-bit mode (which I'm not sure you can). The point is that while having a 64-bit kernel requires all drivers that touch the kernel to be 64-bit, the same isn't required of userland apps.

The whole point of being able to build 32-bit apps on AMD64 using the extra features is that you would be able to optionally use those features. (However, you would still be able to link against libraries that don't) If you go 64-bit, then you cannot link with ant 32-bit stuff.

An obscure database known as MySQL

[suso]

I got into Linux when I wanted to use a free relational database called MySQL for a web project

Why does this quote remind me so much of Data (from Star Trek, an obscure TV show):

Data: "It is from an obscure language known as French"
Picard: "Data, the French language for centuries represented civilization"

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[suso]

Obviously today is asshole moderation day. Since you are probably going to read this and moderate it down too, read this: People take the time out of their day to write comments that contribute in a positive way to Slashdot. Either by being funny, interesting or insightful. They are all important. When you mod those people down, you are making those people become frustrated with this site to go away and then everything goes south. Think next time, every time you mod a comment down that doesn't *need* to be modded down, you are helping to slowly lower the bar on what constitutes a worthy comment.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[Fearless Freep]

Professor Hubert Farnsworth: This is my Universal Translator. It could have been my greatest invention, but it translates everything into an incomprehensible dead language
Cubert J. Farnsworth: [into the translator's microphone] Hello.
Universal Translator: Bonjour!
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: See? Utter gibberish!

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[Sqwubbsy]

I know I'm burning what little karma I have (and I also know it doesn't apply to you) but this comment totally deserves a "you must be new around here", so...

You must be new around here.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[kfg]

Perhaps we just need a -1 I Don't Get It mod. Then they at least have the opportunity to be honest about it.

KFG

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[LordSnooty]

I knew I wasn't the only one who finds tedious off-topic references to Star Trek, South Park and Futurama just a litte dull.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[jml75]

You should not state things that are not true and you should not make fun of other people's language. There is propably about 10 000 languages out there in the world that are still alive and english is just one of those. No mother thong has what is needed to be a good and neutral internationnal language. Think about that for a while! I encourage you to be more humble.

Have a nice day!

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[the unbeliever]

Score -1, Joke Flew Over Head

It's a Futurama reference.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[minus9]

Oh my, yes!

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[damaki]

You did not get the joke and you think that french people cannot laugh about such things. I am french and it is funny. No problem there, dude.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[byolinux]

Sometimes when I moderate, I don't understand references to Star Trek, etc because I don't watch them... however, if they make me laugh, or smile, I mod them up, because they remind me what the Internet is about.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[Anonymous Coward]

>No mother thong has what is needed to be a good and neutral internationnal language.

You know, I don't think any of us want to know what you're looking for in a thong for your mother.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[LittleBigLui]

No mother thong has what is needed to be a good and neutral internationnal language.

You are so right! Actually this isn't limited to thongs, and isn't limited to mothers or even close relatives either.

I hereby state LittleBigLui's theorem linguistic underwear exclusion theorem:

Actually no undergarment at all, anywhere in the universe is a "good and neutral international language".

I have found a proof of this, too, but it is too elaborate to fit into this comment.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[dylan_-]

No mother thong has what is needed to be a good and neutral internationnal language.

You are so right! Actually this isn't limited to thongs,

Actually, you're wrong here, because the Bible says that when the Apostles spoke in thongs, everyone understood them.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nice. What's Futurama?

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[kimvette]

Agreed; the only things really deserving modding down are obfuscated goatse links and racist pricks, but even then, isn't the mod point better spent modding up a great post elsewhere?

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[kimvette]

You're obviously not a Futurama fan, and as such, we suspect you are also not a fan of Monty Python. Sir, we require that you turn in your /. membership card, since you are obviously not a geek. May I suggest you google for "coed naked mud wrestling" or something else which will provide you with entertainment more to your taste?

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[kimvette]

I am french and it is funny.

Oh, so you must be familiar with this one as well?

"The repulsive barge circled the oceans for fifty years, but no country would accept it. Not even that really filthy one...you know the one I mean."

I'm sorry, it had to be done. :D

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[poulbailey]

Things that "had to be done" usually (definitely) don't. That includes your lousy attempt at telling a joke.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[charlesnw]

LOL. Dude your in the wrong place then.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[shish]

People take the time out of their day to write comments that contribute in a positive way to Slashdot. Either by being funny, interesting or insightful. They are all important. When you mod those people down, you are making those people become frustrated with this site to go away and then everything goes south

People also take time out of their day to write comments that contribute negatively, either by being trolls, flamebait, or just offtopic. They are not important. When we mod these people down, we are making on-topic discussion be smoother and less frustrating, making people hang around longer, and then everything stays north :P

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[jml75]

Well thanx for your high level of maturity guys! Actually, to correct one of you, Esperanto IS a neutral language that would be a much better internationnal language than any other IMHO. Also, it's not because a cartoon states things that are untrue that it is funny or good to repeat. ;) One last thing, if someone thought that my earlier intervention deserved a -1, well he or she obviously did not get the sense nor the tone of what I was saying. I was simply asking for a little more respect. I have a proposition here. Why don't we change the rules here on /. and for once chage the language in wich all of us write? Why should it be in english? Why do all of the non-natively english speaking people have learn a second language and people who natively speaks english does not? It would be constructive and interesting to all be on a same level of equality? Don't you think? And it would spare me, in the future, the jokes some of you guys made on the few mistakes I made in my original post... This time, I hope you will get the sense of my post... Have a nice day!

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[Nutria]

Why don't we change the rules here on /. and for once chage the language in wich all of us write? Why should it be in english? Why do all of the non-natively english speaking people have learn a second language and people who natively speaks english does not?

This site is hosted in the USA. English is the primary language in the USA.

If for some brain-dead reason I decided to put a Minitel terminal in my living room, I would not bitch, moan and complain because it is all in French.

Re:An obscure database known as MySQL

[jml75]

You simply just don't get it...

Have a nice one!

Allow me to rain on this parade...

[STDOUBT]

Big Corp.(tm) is awakening to Linux. One of these days, one of these "upgrades"
from one of these companies is going to contain a rootkit tailor-made for Linux.

I, for one, will not forget why I'm using a free (Open Source) platform. It sure
as hell aint for viewing snazzier adverts. Let's also not forget alternatives like
http://www.gnu.org/software/gnash/
This is not an indictment of Mike, I'm sure he's a nice guy.
I'm not a zealot --I use closed video drivers, but these kinds of needless (IMO) upgrades
just smell like trouble to me. And for the record, Flash 7 has performed flawlessly for me
on Debian Testing...

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[bodger_uk]

If gnash would allow me to go to video.google.com and view the content then fine and great. But it doesn't, so it isn't. Alternatives and moral viewpoints are fine, but when they don't cut the mustard they aren't alternatives.

As for flash 7 performing flawlessly, try going to the above google site, and see how long it takes you to get annoyed with the out of sync audio.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Sancho]

You can get in-sync audio by using alsa-oss. I'm sure if you Google around, you'll find the solution to your problem.

The out-of-sync sound on Linux annoyed me to no end until I installed Ubuntu on a notebook to see what all the fuss was about. I was having problems getting Flash sound to play /at/all/ and hit the forums--sure enough, there was a solution to that /and/ the sync issue. I was ecstatic!

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[BFaucet]

Gee I didn't know you represented the needs of everyone. I had no idea Flash was completely useless as I've often enjoyed watching documentaries, news clips, home brew animations and interacting with stimulating websites that utilized Flash as a delivery medium.

I better uninstall that useless piece of junk right away!

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[SavvyPlayer]

It took roughly 6 months for Sony's rootware to surface on a closed system with relatively few kernel-mode experts. I'd venture to guess that if such a payload were targeted at an open platform, it's discovery would be measured in the space of hours or days, not weeks or months. Surely the brand-loyalty of the F/OSS community is worth more than the eternal-alienation of this growing market segment.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[TheRaven64]

If they want input, then I have some:

Change the license on the Flash spec to allow it to be used players as well as generators. I don't care about their plugin, but I do care about using open formats.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[ElleyKitten]

Flash 7 for Linux is almost completely useless. Here's hoping that Flash 9 for Linux is sweet and comes out soon, or (better yet) the gnash team gets it going to the point that Linux users don't need to rely on Adobe for flashy goodness.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Rik Sweeney]

You can get in-sync audio by using alsa-oss. I'm sure if you Google around, you'll find the solution to your problem.

In case anyone is interested, or just too lazy to look themselves, here's the link

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=18659 4

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Nutria]

Flash 7 for Linux is almost completely useless.

Oh Great Oracle, pray tell us why Flash 7 for Linux is almost completely useless!

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[scum-e-bag]

Please mod the parent up.

Closed source will r00t us all.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[scum-e-bag]

Please understand that closed source has the potential to fork linux.

Closed source flash on linux is exactly the same as firefox running on windows.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[ElleyKitten]

Oh Great Oracle, pray tell us why Flash 7 for Linux is almost completely useless!

If you'd ever used it, you'd know, but I'll explain.

- The audio and video are out of sync which makes many videos unwatchable.

- It's rather unstable and can cause frequent browser crashes.

Some people have found workarounds, or their system works better with flash and doesn't crash as much, or the audio sync bug just doesn't bother them. That's the "almost". For me, it took me hours to stop it from instantly crashing my browser whenever I went to a page with flash and get sound to play (the sound problem was actually causing the crashes, flash's OSS doesn't work well w/ Ubuntu's default ESD) but the syncing problem is really bad and it still crashes occasionally. It's not really worth it to me to find a fix; I just find videos that aren't flash.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Anonymous Coward]

It has been near useless to me for the last month. Sites that I use that rely on flash have moved to Flash 8 only. Macromedia was just a better steward is all...hopefully I'm not the only one who wrote Adobe...maybe this long delay won't happen again. Linux has an equal or greater marketshare than Apple, yet we were left out. It does make me question their resolve to keep Flash cross platform compatible.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[blackest_k]

I think your being overly paranoid, who in thier right mind would want to 'pull a sony' on Linux.
discovery of a rootkit would be rapid, fixed and the company that did it would never get its products on Linux ever again.

To be honest I feel better about a company that is prepared to invest time and money on a linux version of thier product. Of course it's better still when they open source thier product and best of all when they open source thier product and work with the linux community.

Flash is just one of many things which needs to just work to attract new users to linux.

New users are important to attract hardware and software developers to support the linux platform. If you look at firefox as an example, there are now enough firefox users to ensure that the majority of sites are accessable with firefox.

more users == greater incentive to develop for linux, which makes things easier for the rest of us.
not everyone can be a developer but most of us could write an email thanking a manufacturer or developer for contributing to Linux, or explaing why you bought a competing product over thiers due to lack of support on thier part for linux.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[ElleyKitten]

Please understand that closed source has the potential to fork linux.

I'd like to see gnash or another open source flash program get good enough that linux users don't even consider Adobe's. That would be much better than us sitting around waiting for Adobe to release a half-baked linux version, or not.

Closed source flash on linux is exactly the same as firefox running on windows.

I don't understand what you mean.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Nutria]

If you'd ever used it, you'd know, but I'll explain.

I've used it since soon after it was released.

- The audio and video are out of sync which makes many videos unwatchable.

The a/v have never been out of sync for me.

- It's rather unstable and can cause frequent browser crashes.

Flash 7 is incredibly stable. While Flash 6.x crashed Mozilla constantly, Flash 7 and FF are a marvel of stability.

Maybe Debian "Unstable" is just more stable than the distro you use.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, think about how ecstatic you would have been if you would have used WinXP / Mac OS X; things simply work on these platforms without requiring you to revert to arcane fiddling and tweaking to get something basic like Flash to do its thing. It must REALLY give certain people a tremendous sense of accomplishment when they FINALLY get some piece of hardware / software to work on Linux, otherwise they wouldn't keep wasting their time on it. Thanks for making me remember why I still hate Linux. Wake me up when it's finally "Ready for the Desktop" (if I'm not dead by then).

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Raenex]

Flash 7 is incredibly stable.

I tried playing this onling game Arimaa with it, and while it would work for a while, it would always eventually crash. It was a well known problem with the Linux Flash 7 player.

I've also been to plenty of sites that just don't work right, for whatever reason. Flash 7 just isn't the same quality as the Windows version. They totally skipped version 8 for Linux. Any bets on the timeliness and quality of version 9 for Linux? Proprietary formats are bad. We need an open standard!

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[ElleyKitten]

I'm glad you've had good luck with Flash. I've had nothing but bad, and if you read what other people have to say about Flash on Linux you'll see the problem isn't just me. I managed to configure a wireless card with ndiswrapper in about a minute the first time I tried, that doesn't mean that everyone has the greatest experience with ndiswrapper and we don't need open drivers.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Daengbo]

Since my gal and I chatted online tonight and she told me that she can't view YouTube while she's visiting her brother because the plugin won't install properly on his WinXP machine, I think that Linux is not the only system which you have to bend over backwards for because some third-party plugin doesn't work properly. She can't wait to get back to her Ubuntu.

Come to think of it, that's the exact reason I left Windows after fighting for days to get the VIA 4-in-1 driver to work with the Creative sound card AND the ATI graphics card at the same time without hanging the whole machine. I never tried to search the internet for days to resolve that problem .... Jeez. Moving to Linux, even in the days of Redhat 5.0 was a breath of fresh air.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, stuff can be a pain to get working sometimes. But what I really like about it is that once it's working it STAYS working. Windows likes to mysteriously change things to how it thinks you should work, not to mention the whole OS chews itself apart periodically.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Anonymous Coward]

flash 9 is pretty much a redesign from the ground up of the way flash works, the performance benefits are simply amazing to people that have been stuck developing at 31fps for years...

if the windows alpha is a sign of things to come, its well worth the upgrade.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Schugy]

No flash installed.No ads, no spies, no disfunctional rightclickmenus, no failure to stop animations (and looping), no blocked sound device and no cpu utilization. The flash player is crap - no matter what the version number is.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[SanityInAnarchy]

Why is it you think you're safer from rootkits by using a video driver (which goes in your kernel) than using a browser plugin? I suspect you simply have different requirements.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[knorthern knight]

> I'd like to see gnash or another open source flash program get good
> enough that linux users don't even consider Adobe's. That would be
> much better than us sitting around waiting for Adobe to release a
> half-baked linux version, or not.

    It'll *NEVER* happen. Unlike PDF, Flash is a proprietary format. Remember how Microsoft screwed over IBM's Windows-on-OS/2 compatability with really minor changes to Windsows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, etc? And IBM had access to the Windows 3.x source code, too. Anytime Gnash comes close to fully emulating Flash version N, expect to see Flash version N+1 released.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Zeroko]

Flash 7 & Gnash are great when they work, but my current physics class requires using Flash 8 or greater for homework. That rules out both Flash 7 & Gnash, which necessitates walking to the computing commons (probably a few hundred yards away, not counting intervening buildings & streets) & standing in line to wait for a Windows machine, which is annoying (not to mention the grime that accumulates on public computers).

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[Nutria]

Remember how Microsoft screwed over IBM's Windows-on-OS/2 compatability with really minor changes to Windsows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, etc? And IBM had access to the Windows 3.x source code, too. Anytime Gnash comes close to fully emulating Flash version N, expect to see Flash version N+1 released.

MSFT had valid concerns about OS/2 back in 1993-1994.

If you think that Adobe really gives a rat's arse about gnash, then you've smoked one too many torpedo.

Re:Allow me to rain on this parade...

[WizMaster]

Have you per chance heard of wine? It helps during moments like these. I'm not a linux zealot and I would prefer to use my own computer. Run firefox for windows on wine and be dome with it.

Why is he a troll?

[suso]

Why was the parent comment marked as Troll? He has a valid point. Its like how jBase (an obscure database no doubt) prides itself on getting to 64-bit in their latest version........ 10 years after all other enterprise databases did.

Adobe/Macromedia/Coke/Taco Bell: Come on, get with the program.

Re:Why is he a troll?

[picklepuss]

He's a troll because the article specifically mentions at one point exactly what to do if you want a 64-bit player. You keep pounding the adobe wish list with requests.

...i think it was this bit...

[andyr0ck]

"Didn't RTFA but I assume..."

that aside, it's a valid point.

Re:no hard questions asked....

[damiangerous]

That's not a comparable situation. The PDF format specifications are freely available for anyone to use. Not so with Flash. The specifications are available, sure, but the license to get them includes a provision about not creating a player. Therefore the only way Open Source players can exist is through reverse engineering. Some do exist though, like GNUFlash, but it's not an easy task.

More Programmers Needed

[totallygeek]

Throwing more programmers, any programmers, at the problem will not necessarily speed the process along.

It's like giving nine women the task of gestating a baby in one month.

Re:More Programmers Needed

[castlec]

It's all about the pipeline. You just have to make sure there is never a branch to mess up the continued gestations :o)

Re:More Programmers Needed

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never met my ex.

Added irony: the captcha for this message is charge

Re:More Programmers Needed

[Anonymous Coward]

If I can randomly select nine pregnant woman for the purposes of having a baby within one month's time, then I like my odds.

Re:More Programmers Needed

[Salzorin]

Just have to squeeze REALLY hard.

Hopefully...

[Chineseyes]

They'll push out an x64 flash player before I die of old age

Re:Hopefully...

[__aainau5532]

Most likely the day after they have compiled Adobe Reader 7+ for Solaris x86. So don't hold your breath.

Slightly confused...

[DarkIye]

Why does everyone say these adverts are unblockable? I've used AdBlocker's Flash overlay function to select any Flash banners and block them at load level, just like any other banner. Anyway, on topic. Whenever I'm wanting to watch Flash movies, I'm usually on Windows (Linux, for me, isn't for fun and games). But when I do use Linux to view them, I can usually view even movies I thought were restricted to Player 9. Me being dense, no doubt, but maybe someone could clear the air as to version compatibility?

Re:Slightly confused...

[ElleyKitten]

But when I do use Linux to view them, I can usually view even movies I thought were restricted to Player 9. Me being dense, no doubt, but maybe someone could clear the air as to version compatibility?

Most websites still use Flash 7. There's very few websites that have 8 or 9, but they're there, and you'll get a message to upgrade your flash when you find them. What's probably happened is you just haven't found any 8 or 9 sites, and you're just assuming that the site has upgraded its flash when it hasn't.

in true slashdot style

[aristolochene]

Yes, but does it run on linux?

Re:in true slashdot style

[nwbvt]

Of course not. Don't be silly.

Allow me to rain on your parade...

[Qbertino]

... but one of the reasons Flash is so successfull is that it's considered the securest plugin (tm) in existance. Flash allways has been extremely picky about security - that's one of the reasons why it's the easiest cross-plattform VM to deploy in corporate enviroments.

Open source player.

[phoebe]

It does not sound like he has heard of Gnash:

Gnash is a GNU Flash movie player. Till now it has only been possible to play flash movies with proprietary software. While there are a few other free flash players, none supports anything higher than SWF v4 at best. Gnash is based on GameSWF, and supports many SWF v7 features.

Features

1. Runs standalone: Gnash can run standalone to play flash movies.
2. Firefox plugin: Gnash can also run as a plugin from within Firefox.
3. SWF v7 compliant: Gnash can play many current flash movies.
4. XML Message server: Gnash also supports an XML based message system as is documented in the Flash Format specification.
5. High Quality Output: Gnash uses OpenGL for rendering the graphics.
6. Free Software: Gnash is 100% free software.

Re:Open source player.

[karmaflux]

SWF v7 compliant

Not good enough. Macromedia already made flash 7 for linux. What's the point of switching to gnash if it comes without flash 8 support?

Re:Open source player.

[ElleyKitten]

Not good enough. Macromedia already made flash 7 for linux. What's the point of switching to gnash if it comes without flash 8 support?

I believe it runs on ppc and amd64 linux, which Macromedia's flash doesn't.

Also, it's the concept of using free (as in speech) software. And hopefully, with enough work and support, gnash will be current enough and good enough that linux users can use gnash instead and won't have to wait for Adobe to not release the latest flash versions for linux.

Re:Open source player.

[Wylfing]

It does not sound like he has heard of Gnash

I bet he has heard of Gnash. I also bet that one of the 2 main reasons for Adobe spending effort on a Linux Flash player is the capabilities of Open Source Flash players. It would be quite horrible for them if Gnash surpassed the current Linux offering from Adobe in functionality. Great for users, but bad for Adobe. They would stand to rapidly lose control over the Flash platform in a big way.

(I think the 2nd reason, from an executive standpoint, that they are developing this is because if they stop short of the "credo" of Flash, that Flash content can be played anywhere, they sell fewer dev kits. Also, the growing market of dedicated gadgets that run Linux, e.g., phones, which has great potential to be a big target platform.)

Re:Open source player.

[cortana]

Works on architectures other than i386. Can actually display text reliably. Sound and video in sync. Doesn't crash the browser.

Re:Open source player.

[gaspyy]

Your arguments don't make much sense.

On one hand everybody keeps complaining that there's only Flash7 for Linux and Flash9 should be a top priority. On the other hand, Gnash "supports many SWF v7 features". Many, as in "not all of"?

So what should Adobe do in your opinion? Do nothing? Support Gnash team instead of their own player?
You're trying paint Adobe as evil (or at least that's my impression). I'm no fan of Adobe, but their efforts in this area should be at least acknowledged.

Armand (Flash fan)

Re:Open source player.

[Grishnakh]

So what should Adobe do in your opinion? Do nothing? Support Gnash team instead of their own player?
You're trying paint Adobe as evil (or at least that's my impression). I'm no fan of Adobe, but their efforts in this area should be at least acknowledged.

They are evil. They only renewed their efforts on the Linux player after Gnash got going and put egg on their face. Even so, they're still ignoring all the calls for an x86_64 version of Flash.

So yes, it'd be much better if they supported the Gnash team instead of wasting time with their crappy version.

Re:Open source player.

[stinerman]

You forgot 7:

7) Alpha softare (very unstable)

I applaud the efforts of the people working on Gnash and wish them the best in their work to give us an F/OSS flash player, but as of right now it doesn't work all that well (for me at least).

Re:Open source player.

[shish]

As much as I want gnash to be my main flash player, I have yet to find a single flash file which it plays properly :-/ Running "gnash [file.swf]" doesn't seem to give me keyboard, mouse, or sound; and plain animations (eg weebl and bob) are slow as hell...

Re:no hard questions asked....

[Anonymous Coward]

> Nothing is stopping "the community" from writing an open source Flash player just like people did with the xpdf reader for PDF documents

Errr, yes there is: The flash documentation is explicitly not allowing you to write a player based on it.

PPC Linux Flash ?

[reaktor]

Still no mention of flash for PPC Linux. Is this going to happen?

Re:PPC Linux Flash ?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is PPC? Some old, arcane hardware? Is that like an Amiga? Damn, you guys _never_ shut up, do you?

Re:PPC Linux Flash ?

[orasio]

No.

Re:PPC Linux Flash ?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC

Old arcane hardware? Not really. Damn, you noobs _never_ shut up, do you?

Re:PPC Linux Flash ?

[John Nowak]

To counter the idiots replying to your post -- Seconded. A PowerPC version would be quite nice, and honestly, shouldn't be hard to do. There are a *lot* of PowerPC systems out there that could benefit from this.

Re:PPC Linux Flash ?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a *lot* of PowerPC systems out there that could benefit from this.

Most of those are running the Mac operating system, and there is a Flash Player available.

A x86 Linux Shockwave player should be a higher priority

Re:PPC Linux Flash ?

[mad.frog]

And by "a lot", how many are we talking about, really? As in, hard numbers?

100's? 1000's? Maybe even 10000's?

(Linux PPC only, please... Mac PPC already has a perfectly good Flash Player)

Re:PPC Linux Flash ?

[mibus]

100's? 1000's? Maybe even 10000's?

Including me... two.

The sound synchronization

[Rik Sweeney]

The only problem I have with the current Linux Flash is that the sound is out of sync with the picture. This makes using Google Video or You Tube a bit a hassle. So my question is

Has the sound synchronization problem been fixed?

On a side note, if you don't like flash ads with screaming sound, just install Flash Block.

But install Firefox first

Re:The sound synchronization

[Anthracks]

From TFA:

A close runner-up for most requested feature is proper audio/video sync. And Linux users will get that this time around, thanks largely to the purging of the OSS audio API in favor of the Advanced Linux Sound Architecture (ALSA).

Re:The sound synchronization

[jcupitt65]

From the article:

A close runner-up for most requested feature is proper audio/video sync. And Linux users will get that this time around, thanks largely to the purging of the OSS audio API in favor of the Advanced Linux Sound Architecture (ALSA).

Re:The sound synchronization

[CheechWizz]

from TFA:

"I think the feature most often requested is an open source Flash Player. A close runner-up for most requested feature is proper audio/video sync. And Linux users will get that this time around, thanks largely to the purging of the OSS audio API in favor of the Advanced Linux Sound Architecture (ALSA)."

Re:The sound synchronization

[bhunachchicken]

1. RTFA
2. Do some work
3. If you can't be bothered to do the work you're paid to do then do some work on Blob and Conquer

Re:The sound synchronization

[Anonymous Coward]

Has the sound synchronization problem been fixed?

Finally, version 9 will play audio and video in sync. About fucking time.

"it's fortunate that Adobe is treating Linux as a first-class operating system in supporting the Flash platform."

LOL!

Re:no hard questions asked....

[StarkRG]

Stopping? No, you're right. However it's not the same as PDF, PDF was (is) an open standard, they told people how to make viewers on various platforms with various tools, it's the main reason it caught on so quickly and so strongly.

As a friend of mine explained, the computer world is much differrent now, there isn't umpteen different OSs that companies have to deal with, in fact, they could (and do) get away with only supporting one. The percentage of Windows users is so high as to make everything else not even appear on many charts. The second and third places are covered by OS X and Linux, but those are so small compared to Windows that many companies don't even take a second glance.

I think this is very bad as it only makes people gravitate towards Windows more, thus making a vicious cycle. I think it would be wonderful if more companies started seeing the advantages of open standards and open source. Apple doesn't make the money on iTunes, it makes it from the store and iPods, so why not make the pprogram open source?

I got really pissed at Adobe recently for their idiotic canned support emails ("You seem to be having trouble with , you can find help with that at our FAQ, if you need more help please reply to this email" Dude, if your FAQ had the answers I was looking for I wouldn't have emailed you...). It sucks that a) there hasn't been a new flash player for linux for quite a while and b) there has never been one for AMD64. Having had several back-and-forth emails with Adobe support I got the sinking impression that the Linux versions had been dropped and were never going to be updated. I'm glad this is not true, and I applaud Adobe for doing the (mostly) right thing in releasing a Linux version of their player. Of course, if they opened the standard we'd get better flash players quicker and they wouldn't have to pay as many people to do it, win-win, if you ask me.

I don't understand why more companies aren't seeing the advantages of open source, but at least some of them aren't ignoring us completely.

There is a open source flash player, though it doesn't work too well.

Still vapourware until *something* gets released..

[rklrkl]

...I've got to say that this long-winded dragout of the next Linux version of Flash Player (hey, isn't both 8 final and 9 beta out for Windows already - neither of which we've seen in *any form* for Linux?) is getting rather tiresome. Sadly, the current Linux Flash development "team" (who is involved exactly in writing the Linux-specific code? The article doesn't really spell it out - you do suspect only one person has been assigned to do that and Adobe don't want to publicly admit that) haven't helped by spinning things out with their blog.

I find it amazing that "obvious" steps haven't been taken by the Linux Flash team, namely:

* Some sort of release schedule announcement - don't care if it slips by a few weeks here and there.

* A set of pre-releases (heck, have them time-bomb out if you don't want them being used in the long-term) coming out to showcase its current alpha/beta/RC status. Note here - Windows gets beta releases, why can't Linux?! It's utterly shameful there is no pre-release version for Linux, especially since the latest Linux Flash blog entries brag how stable the player now is at all the major sites it's been tested on!

* A definitive statement on whether they'll support 64-bit (i.e. "it'll be released at the same time as the 32-bit version" or "it'll be released X months after the 32-bit version" or "it'll never be released"). Sadly, Adobe are somewhat pig-ignorant w.r.t. the 64-bit platform and don't even have a 64-bit version for XP!

* Explain the exact differences between, say, Windows Flash 9 and Linux Flash 9 - there's some woolly stuff on this in the article really. After all this time in incubation, you'd have thought that the two platforms would have identical version 9 players, but I wouldn't it past Adobe to release a half-baked Linux Flash 9 player, since they have not yet demonstrated to anyone at all that they take Linux seriously (does the word "vapourware" mean anything to Adobe? That's exactly what Flash 8/9 on Linux currently are).

* Start a merge of the Linux development environment and the Windows one, so that ultimately they work from the same codebase to avoid the ridiculous delays in platform releases we've seen in the past. It's not clear to me if the Linux effort is fragmented - have we been told how much code is common on all platforms and how much is specific to Linux (and how they keep the specific code to a minimum)?

* Open Source the player! If Adobe have coded the entire player in-house (which I believe they have), then why not Open Source it...it's a free download after all! Even if they've patented some methods used in the source code, they own the patents and the copyright on the source code, so that shouldn't stop them open-sourcing it surely? Just exactly what is Adobe's objection to open sourcing the player? Sheer bloody-mindedness?

Keyboard

[protomala]

The major problem I got with Flash for Linux is that keyboard simply don't work! There are a lot of mini-games out there that use keyboard for controlling the character, but I get nothing trying all the keys. Maybe it's because I'm using a pt-BR (ABNT2) keyboard, but it dosen't seem to be a problem for Flash Player in Windows :-(

Re:Keyboard

[Carnivore]

I get this sometimes, too. Right-click on the flash object to bring up the menu, then left click off of the menu. This usually lets me use the keyboard.

Why Linux isn't more popular

[4solarisinfo]

Since this thread seems to be about burning Karma, may as well go way out on a limb here...

What to know why Linux isn't catching on faster?

You can get in-sync audio by using alsa-oss. I'm sure if you Google around, you'll find the solution to your problem.

Only in the world of Linux would it seem like a good idea to avoid the software being specifically written to do X be avoided by having to google to find a tweak to an old program by loading another program. I appreciate the benefits of open source, but Macromedia created flash for a specific form of content, and is writing a driver to allow everyone in Linux to see it better, why does this need a workaround? Is it just too simple?

Re:Why Linux isn't more popular

[Anonymous Coward]

So Linux isn't more popular because the developers of Linux distributions haven't bent over backwards to make the Flash 7 plugin keep working in spite of the fact that every other component of the system has moved on since it was released, and in spite of the fact that the thing never worked properly in the first place? Yeah, that makes sense.

Come on. How the hell are Linux developers / distributors responsible for what Macromedia does?

Re:Why Linux isn't more popular

[4solarisinfo]

No Linux isn't more popular because the 1%s here are actually here badmouthing Macromedia for trying, and think a 4 step system requiring tweaks to replacing it is a better idea.

There is a lot of room between being a fanboy cheerleader and badmouthing a developer who is trying to support a small market.

Re:Why Linux isn't more popular

[Sancho]

I definitely think that Linux (in its current state) is for tweakers and fiddlers. I used to take great joy in tinkering and getting things to work under Linux and other OSS operating systems. That joy is starting to wane as I get older and my time becomes more valuable (working >40 hours/week does that, I think). At this point, I think I'd rather things just work rather than changing options in a configuration file and messing with my OS to try to get something simple like synchronized audio and video working. My current issue is with WPA/WPA2-Radius. In Windows, it works great with my router. In Linux, I constantly lose my association before I can even grab an IP (though the logs on the server side indicate successful Radius authentication).

I'm thinking of making The Switch to OS X. My peers seem to think that it's the perfect balance of tinker/tweak and things simply working. It's gotta be better than reinstalling Windows all the time or fighting with Linux to get my wireless working....

Re:Why Linux isn't more popular

[orasio]

They plan on releasing by 2007.
Flash player 9 doesn't exist.
They are not trying hard enough.
I'm replacing flash player with gnash as soon as gnash plays youtube and google right, and that is not far into the future.

Re:Why Linux isn't more popular

[Doctor Memory]

I definitely think that Linux (in its current state) is for tweakers and fiddlers

Is it still that bad? I used Red Hat 5.1 for awhile, then switched to Debian Potato (man, I hated that configuration tool, dselect?), then got tired of downloading utilities only to find they were some high-school senior's CS project and only worked with a specific (obsolete) version of some common library that I couldn't install because it would conflict with the current version which I needed for everything else. So I moved on to NetBSD and never looked back. I've been thinking about loading Ubuntu on one of my mothballed machines, but maybe I won't bother...

Re:Why Linux isn't more popular

[Sancho]

"That bad" depends on what your needs are. Ubuntu seems to "Just work" for a lot of stuff that needed coaxing before. It's sorely lacking on the WPA-Enterprise front, which is a shame. Ubuntu has a nice package manager, though you have to tweak the sources.list file to get non-Ubuntu supported packages on there. You can always compile from source, of course. I think that the only tweaks I've really had to make are the alsa-oss one to get Flash working and sources.list. Currently on my "things that don't work list" are WPA (specific to Ubuntu--I can connect to my office wireless WPA-Radius with Gentoo) and Cedega/SATA CDrom (Transgaming claims that this is a problem with the Linux kernel--I have a suspicion that they're passing the buck--nevertheless it's a "problem with Linux" if you have a hardware setup similar to mine and you want to use Cedega).

Of course, Macs aren't (yet) better on that last bit, though Parallels is promising "full speed" DirectX and OpenGL in an upcoming version of their virtualization software. Other companies are talking about Windows emulation on the Mac, too, and since it's got a higher workstation/personal use marketshare than Linux, I'm willing to believe it. That's one reason I'm tempted to switch: I can run any OS I want on the Mac under the virtualizer while having a stable, supported solution for my everyday tasks (web browsing with multimedia, legitimate DVD player, ssh, word processing, simple network connectivity, etc.)

Of course, all that comes at a hefty price tag, but more and more, I'm thinking it's worth it. As soon as both the Core 2 Duo gets put in the Macbook Pro and Parallels announces 3D card support, I'll probably be down a couple grand on a Mac.

Re:Why Linux isn't more popular

[Nutria]

Is it still that bad? I used Red Hat 5.1 for awhile, then switched to Debian Potato (man, I hated that configuration tool, dselect?), then got tired of downloading utilities only to find they were some high-school senior's CS project and only worked with a specific (obsolete) version of some common library that I couldn't install because it would conflict with the current version which I needed for everything else. So I moved on to NetBSD and never looked back. I've been thinking about loading Ubuntu on one of my mothballed machines, but maybe I won't bother...

Those were released a looooooong time ago. RH5.2 in Nov-1998 and Potato in Aug-2000. Lots and lots and lots of things have changed since then.

I started using Debian with Woody, and it has always(*) been a "just works" system, even though I quickly migrated to Unstable/Sid.

(*) The only time it barfs is when I try to upgrade when a major transition is underway, and half the relevant packages have not yet been uploaded.

Branigan's Law versus Brooks' Law

[Anonymous Coward]

> It's like giving nine women the task of gestating a baby in one month.

Zapps "We'll need an army of super-virile men scoring round the clock. I'll do my part. Kif, clear my schedule."
(Kif takes out an etch-a-sketch and shakes it) ;-]

don't mess too much with it...

[brunokummel]

if they can get youtube's Audio and Video to synch again that's good enough for me!

Seriously, folks...

[Wylfing]

what kinds of things won't be in the Linux player that are in the other players

The other players can play movies, and the Linux player...can't!

ways to give Adobe input on the Linux player

All comments may be directed to /dev/null. We'll respond as quickly as we can!

Oh, alright, I'm only kidding. Kind of. I actually read (present tense) the Linux Flash developer blogs and at minimum what we'll be getting is a player that is vastly better than anything we've ever had before. I am just a little irked about Flash being so rotten on Linux for so long. I try to evangelize family and friends and get them to dump Windows, but Flash is a frequent deal-breaker. "Oh, Flash works like crap? Forget it then, I need YouTube and the kids are addicted to the games on Noggin and MyLittlePony." Sigh.

P.S. I never understood the reluctance of companies to go ahead and use ALSA.

Re:no hard questions asked....

[mshiltonj]

why does flash 9 for linux suck horribly compared to all the earlier releases?

There *isn't* a flash 9 for linux, sucky or not. It doesn't exist. That's what the dude is working on.

When are you going to release a fixed version that actually works right or at least comperable to the mac or windows versions?

TFA said "early 2007." That's what he's working on right now!

Sheesh.

Forget ALSA; Go JACK-IT

[Dark Coder]

Why push for ALSA support? Jack-It is the future.

All quality sound players (MythTV, Audacity, Gxine, Xine, XMMS), sound servers (alsasound, Gnome, KDE) and sound device (ALSA, ALSA-OSS) support JACK, (recursive for Jack Audio Connection Kit).

Even the professional musicians touts their superior audio latency, excellent patch panel, hundreds of audio filters (not that any normal user would want them, but its crispy and never choppy).

I'm getting tired of switching audio server JUST to use Flash/Mozilla/Linux. All other media applications play nicely with JACK.

Can we see jackd ported into Flash BEFORE ALSA?

Re:Forget ALSA; Go JACK-IT

[Grishnakh]

You're asking for way too much. ALSA has been out for many years now, and it's taken this long for Adobe to notice and use it. It'll be another ten years before they can use JACK.

Remember, Adobe is closed-source and proprietary, so it takes them much longer to do anything than the open-source world.

Re:no hard questions asked....

[Nutria]

Like, why does flash 9 for linux suck horribly compared to all the earlier releases?

How the hell did drivel like this get modded +4, Insighful?

There is no Flash 9, and Linux Flash 7 is a hell of a lot stabler than 6.x ever was.

Re:no hard questions asked....

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry but it will SUCK. they put a half hearted and half assed attempt on all their linux releases.

the best one was 5. it was an official product that actually had a dev team. 7 is completely crap goat nuts that sucks.

BTW, he could be a alpha/beta tester. did you ask before flaming? or maybe he meany 7 which does suck horribly.

Re:no hard questions asked....

[maxwell demon]

But shouldn't that be easy to circumvent?

1. Group 1 writes some open source code to create Flash animations, using the licensed documentation. If I understand correctly, this is allowed.
2. Group 2 doesn't receive the documentation (and therefore isn't bound by its license), but reads the source code of the Flash creator from group 1, and thus can make a player which can play anything the creator from group 1 can produce. If group 1 has done its job well, this means, the player of group 2 can play Flash without ever being exposed to the Flash documentation.

Why macromedia wont let you build players

[jonwil]

There are 2 big reasons why it is unlikely that Macromedia will change and allow the spec to be used to build players.

Firstly, just like with Sun and Java but much more so, flash truely is "develop once, run anywhere". Any web browser on any platform running the relavent version of the flash player plugin for that platform can play any shockwave flash file out there. (which is probobly why web designers love it so much...)

And, just like Sun and Java, if Macromedia goes open source or open specs, how can they be sure that "GnuFlash" can play ALL the flash files the same as how the Macromedia player can.

The other reason is the mobile devices space (PDAs, cellphones, smartphones etc). Right now, Macromedia is pushing heavily into the mobile space and trying to convince mobile device manufacturers to ship "flash for mobile devices". I dont know details but I imagine mobile device makers have to pay Macromedia to ship "flash for mobile devices" in their device (especially when a source code licence is required and its not just a binary provided by Macromedia). If the specs or code were open, the mobile device manufacturers wouldnt need to pay macromedia.

Re:Why macromedia wont let you build players

[bigredradio]

Don't you mean Adobe?

Re:Why macromedia wont let you build players

[Anonymous Coward]

And, just like Sun and Java, if Macromedia goes open source or open specs, how can they be sure that "GnuFlash" can play ALL the flash files the same as how the Macromedia player can.

Same way they can ensure that their own players can play all Flash files the same as in a particular version/platform of their own Flash player: they can't, apparently.

How many times have I been to a webpage that says "oops, sorry, you need to upgrade to Flash version N+1 to see this"?

And on my platform, version N+1 is often not available. When it is, the audio doesn't work right, or some other dang thing.

If they cared about standards compliance, they should open-source the thing so we can fix it. Who do you trust more for standards compliance, MS Office or OpenOffice?

As usual...

[ilzogoiby]

People need an open clone. Or else, we'll be condemned to wait for the whole eternity...

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[LinDVD]

Despite their link saying they are working on it, I'm a little skeptical about a Flash 9 player as well. At least until a beta is released anyway. Sun Microsystems helped develop Flash 7 for Linux, nearly 18 months after the Flash 7 IDE was released, so I don't think Adobe is doing what they could with this.

Mike Melanson?

[Mitchell Mebane]

Is this the same Mike Melanson who contributes to ffmpeg and runs multimedia.cx?

Re:Mike Melanson?

[sconest]

From the article:
I started doing some homework and began contributing to, and occasionally leading, various multimedia-related open source projects and efforts, such as xine, FFmpeg, and MPlayer.
So I'll say yes (at least for FFmpeg)

Re:Mike Melanson?

[mad.frog]

Is this the same Mike Melanson who contributes to ffmpeg and runs multimedia.cx?

Yes.

Re:Mike Melanson?

[NereusRen]

RTFA. In fact, read the first question of TFA. How could that possibly be more work than posting your question and waiting for a reply?

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[Peter La Casse]

* A definitive statement on whether they'll support 64-bit (i.e. "it'll be released at the same time as the 32-bit version" or "it'll be released X months after the 32-bit version" or "it'll never be released"). Sadly, Adobe are somewhat pig-ignorant w.r.t. the 64-bit platform and don't even have a 64-bit version for XP!

They've made their position on 64-bit support pretty clear.

Ignoring the 64-bit world seems shortsighted to me. Sure, most users are 32 bit at the moment, but are new 32 bit machines even sold any more? Old stock, maybe, before current models push it out of the supply chain. Even Semprons are 64 bit now.

The distro question

[rockhome]

The whole question about wanting the player to "just work" on other distributions really brings up a question that the linux world has been avoiding for at least 10 years, and that is the question of why so many ideosyncratic distributions exist. What makes open source so powerful and effective has also made a mess of interoperability where Linux is concerned.

Why is that each distribution of Linux has to be so ideosyncratic that a body cannot produce a binary installation that "just works"? Why should that even be a question? Isn't this a stumbling block in terms of mainstream, desktop adoption of Linux? Sure, if you can ./configure --put-this-there --this-is-there --look--for-this-here --my-init-scripts-are-here --use-this-and-not-that;make install everything yourself, you'll not be bothered by a lot of this. But suppose you are the mythical, mainstream Linux dekstop user who doesn't know wnaymore about Linux than it installed from the CD no problem. If you are looking for a piece of off the shelf software are you reall going to see something on the label akin to the following :

Compatible with RedHat Linux, SuSE, Slackware, Debian, Gentoo, Mandrake, Ubuntu,SlackHat Redbian, Mandrux, Unbonux, Seus, ZuSE, Debware, Mandhat, Slackdrake, Jesux, Paulux, Vitamin-C, and Bean Crock Enterprise

Even though you can really categorize most into a few base types, what is to gurantee that my Rhinestone Pantux will run something as easily as my Blue Sude Linux even though they are both based on RedHat?

Re:The distro question

[pembo13]

Skype just works. Give it a try.

Re:The distro question

[dylan_-]

really brings up a question that the linux world has been avoiding for at least 10 years, and that is the question of why so many ideosyncratic distributions exist

And the answer is: because they can. If I decide to put together my own distribution tomorrow, with all the startup scripts in /bin/registry and users' areas in /wherestuffis/username, then I can. And if you object...well, tough! I didn't ask your permission.

Sorry you had to wait 10 years to find this out. Seriously though, couldn't you work this out for yourself? Why did you think it was?

Re:The distro question

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is that each distribution of Linux has to be so ideosyncratic that a body cannot produce a binary installation that "just works"? Why should that even be a question? Isn't this a stumbling block in terms of mainstream, desktop adoption of Linux?

Because there is not one thing that is "Linux", just as there is not one thing called "a computer". Everybody makes their own, and they're slightly different. You may as well ask why you can't produce a single binary that just works across all platforms.

Now, I think that's a fair question to ask. I think we should have a simple core CPU instruction set that every CPU supports, and then optional features that bigger systems can add (like vector units, memory protection, and so forth), but that any core-instruction binary should run on any CPU. I can view any ASCII text file on any system, after all. (I have a degree in CS; I know the issues are a bit more involved, but aren't insurmountable, if we made that a goal.)

So yes, a "binary installer" for my Debian system won't work on my friend's SUSE system, but it won't work on my dad's WinXP system, either. It's not fair to hold Linux distros to a higher standard than proprietary systems. Wouldn't you say that Windows XP and Mac OS X are equally poor at binary compatibility with other systems?

Re:no hard questions asked....

[doti]

Is this GNUFlash the same as Gnash?

Why won't they support Gstreamer?

[Anonymous Coward]

The current (but outdated) Flash player 7 for Linux has big problems with audio/video synchronization. They are hoping to solve this by getting rid of OSS support and using ALSA exclusively. This is a good move. But I also see that they do not plan to support the current version of Video For Linux (V4L2), although the older V4L is being phased out of the kernel. And in that engineer's blog, I saw a brief statement about the fact that the Flash player will not use Gstreamer. This is bad.

Why don't they use Gstreamer? This would solve the synchronization issues (the current gstreamer-0.10 is very good at keeping everything in sync, unlike other multimedia frameworks) and it would also provide good support for both V4L and V4L2. In addition, it would provide a good cross-desktop integration, because Gstreamer will be supported in KDE4 (through Phonon) and in GNOME.

Currently, Gstreamer allows me to configure multiple sound cards correctly and decide in one place which one is the default one. If the new Linux Flash player ignores Gstreamer and codes for ALSA and V4L directly, then I bet that it will have problems picking the right sound card automatically. And it will probably ignore my gstreamer filters as well, which is a pity. Not to mention that it would force me to keep the obsolete V4L code in my kernel instead of using V4L2 (gstreamer would do the switch transparently), just like Flash Player 7 forces me to keep the OSS API (alsa-oss) while all other programs have moved to a more mature interface (ALSA).

By the way, I have read some comments in the blog saying that Gstreamer should not be used because its API or ABI is not stable. I say: bullshit. There were some incompatibilities while moving from gstreamer-0.8 to gstreamer-0.10, but this was a long time ago and the interfaces have been stable since then. If I remember correctly, the Gstreamer developers stated that they intend to keep the interfaces stable now. So those who reject Gstreamer for that reason are just spreading FUD.

Re:Why won't they support Gstreamer?

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot to mention another important benefit of using gstreamer: Cross platform support. If Flash were based on gstreamer, it would be _much_ easier to port it to other platforms (such as the BSDs) that are supported by gstreamer. To me, this makes much more sense than tying Flash so closely to the Linux kernel by depending on V4L and ALSA.

Re:Why won't they support Gstreamer?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Why don't they use Gstreamer? This would solve the synchronization issues
> (the current gstreamer-0.10 is very good at keeping everything in sync

Because they say they want pixel-for-pixel "compatibility" with the windows version so they can't use it for video display. So how can gstreamer keep everything in sync when it is only handling audio?

> By the way, I have read some comments in the blog saying that Gstreamer
> should not be used because its API or ABI is not stable. I say: bullshit.
> There were some incompatibilities while moving from gstreamer-0.8 to gstreamer-0.10,
> but this was a long time ago and the interfaces have been stable since then.

Umm... gstreamer-0.10 was released ca. 9 months ago. I'd call it a stable API when it has been stable for 1 or 2 years (and not when the developers shout loudest that they _intend_ to keep it stable).
Also gstreamer is one more dependency that might make it not work on some (esp. older) systems. Not every (even Linux) user runs the latest version of everything. And actually I personally wouldn't be too happy if I had to install gstreamer for only this one application (well, I won't install flash anyway, since I have a 64 bit system though, and prefer to ignore flash sites anyway).

Re:Why won't they support Gstreamer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are they fleeing gstreamer like plague? I see at least three reasons:

1. Because gstreamer's performance sucks; there is absolutely no excuse for using ten times more resources than mplayer/xine for decoding a MP3;
2. Because after 7 years (yes, the project started even before Windows XP and OS X were released!), it still is brittle (look yourself at the serious bugs fixed two weeks ago);
3. Because no serious video player uses it (there must be a reason...); and even in simple audio apps, see point 1. Why would Adobe be a testbed for a library that didn't prove to be reliable video-wise?

Re:no hard questions asked....

[BrokenHalo]

And don't all Flash presentations suck anyway? That's what Flashblock is for...

wish

[doti]

But one suggestion I would make to the community is to use the Adobe Wish Form to make specific feature requests, such as support for 64-bit and PowerPC platforms and alternate OS such as FreeBSD, so the comments are more productive.

I, for one, wish Flash to die a horrible death.

Re:wish

[Anonymous Coward]

Seconded.

Re:wish

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this modded Funny +5?

Re:wish

[gaspyy]

Why?

Do you honestly think that Flash is evil because marketoids and spammers are using it?

By that definition email is evil too.

Oh wait, this is Slashdot. Nevermind.

Re:wish

[alveraan]

Agreed. This should be modded insightful, not funny. Flash is a pest that's spreading way too fast on way too many websites. Heck, it's come to the point where one can virtually forget accessing any official musicians website when using a 64bit system. A closed, proprietary internet "standard" is just not acceptable and never will be.

Re:wish

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny. That's the exact same thing I think about linux all the time.

Re:wish

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a fucktard, fucktard. Go suck on the microshaft nipple.

Re:wish

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad it for you that already is a proprietary internet standard.

Re:Gee, more no news

[Anonymous Coward]

If you used a browser that doesn't suck, you could whitelist which sites you want to allow flash to play.

Re:no hard questions asked....

[Anonymous Coward]

how the hell do you ever get modded anything but troll?

Obvoiusally he meant flash 7 and it does suck HORRIBLY. Flash 5 was their pinnacle and went down from there.

Quit trolling you dweeb.

so Open Source is non-compliant with standards?

[Arancaytar]

"how can they be sure that "GnuFlash" can play ALL the flash files the same as how the Macromedia player can."

I tend to be suspicious about closed standards and the "compatibility" reason given for it. If it were in Macromedia's interest for the Open Source community to develop a GNU flash player that "can play ALL Flash files", then they should just hand out the specification and tell them to go ahead.

It's not like OS developers can't be trusted to comply with standards. It's in the developers' own interest to make their player compliant (and keep it updated), because they have no competition to lock out, but plenty of people to convert.

Isn't it more likely that the standards remain closed (and the development of a new player prohibited) in order to retain control of the player and the media? I don't blame them since they produce a passable player themselves, and don't spike it with malware or security flaws. But this explanation really sounds more like an excuse.

Linux as a first-class operating system

[emil10001]

"it's fortunate that Adobe is treating Linux as a first-class operating system in supporting the Flash platform"

They are?? Huh, I must be missing something, because I always thought that flash player releases for Linux was at best months behind that of Windows and OS X.

I've been hearing rumors about this since Flash 8, which was over a year ago. I've missed a lot of flash videos developed for flash 8 that I just plain can't see with my player. (Yes, I watch a lot of those crappy NewGrounds videos.) So, I guess I'd feel better if Adobe actually treated Linux as a first-class operating system, and released new versions in a timely fashion, as opposed to just saying that they do.

Re:Linux as a first-class operating system

[pembo13]

Along the lines of missied video: stargate codes given during viewing. I watch live, get the code, dam video is in Flash 8.

Re:no hard questions asked....

[Eideewt]

Thank goodness we have AC to predict the future and save us all the trouble of waiting for it.

Just keep hounding Adobe

[kimvette]

Just keep hounding Adobe with requests for Linux versions of all of their products. They will eventually realize it's wise to cater to a growing market. If they continue to ignore Linux, they risk being rendered irrelevant, especially with Xara, Inkscape, krita, and the gimp all quickly maturing. I'm sure that alternatives to Adobe's flash player aren't far off if Adobe continues to drop the ball. I've read that the so-called "lead engineer behind Adobe's upcoming Flash Player 9 for Linux" is the ONLY engineer assigned to the upcoming Flash Player 9 for Linux - I have NO idea if it's true (but the thing is so late I suspect it is) but if it is, that's pretty sad. We'll end up getting the Flash Player 9 for Linux right around the time that Flash 10 for everything else has alreaqdy shipped.

Re:Just keep hounding Adobe

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Just keep hounding Adobe with requests for Linux versions of all of their products. They will eventually realize it's wise to cater to a growing market.

Umm, is this the same Adobe that cancelled the Linux, Mac, and Solaris versions of Framemaker a few years after they bought it, abandoning more than half of their install base?

If they continue to ignore Linux, they risk being rendered irrelevant, especially with Xara, Inkscape, krita, and the gimp all quickly maturing.

Those are great projects, but Linux really does account for a tiny percentage of desktop users. If 95% of the industry is on Windows or Mac, they won't be hurting too much to lose the Linux market. What needs to happen id for Linux to grab a significant chunk of the market, or adhere to standards compatible with a significant chunk of the market. Personally, I think VMs for mainstream apps and deployment in cost sensitive segments of the market are key.

Re:Just keep hounding Adobe

[bensch128]

I think this is a play for the embedded market.

Basically, I see that the entire embedded market is going linux-arm9/XScale. It's cheap, super stable and pretty damn powerful. If the flash player only uses the bare minimum of X11, it might be able to squeeze on top of nanoX and be usable in embedded memo (the tiny firefox). The rest is staight on top of linux kernel APIs so it makes more sense.

Cheers,
Ben

Re:no hard questions asked....

[damiangerous]

Yes, I'd forgotten the name but that's what I was referring to.

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[Teun]

Even if they've patented some methods used in the source code, they own the patents

You seem to forget most civilisations don't recognise software patents.

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[gaspyy]

Good points.

Open Source the player! If Adobe have coded the entire player in-house (which I believe they have), then why not Open Source it...it's a free download after all! Even if they've patented some methods used in the source code, they own the patents and the copyright on the source code, so that shouldn't stop them open-sourcing it surely? Just exactly what is Adobe's objection to open sourcing the player? Sheer bloody-mindedness?

The video codec VP6 is patented by On2. Maybe it's them who oppose their technology being open source.

Armand (Flash fan)

Biggest reason why macromedia wont...

[beckerist]

Make that 3 big reasons...
Macromedia doesn't exist anymore, Adobe bought them out months ago...

Macromedia won't be giving us ANYTHING!

tell Adobe to sign you up for beta-tests

[halfelven]

Agree, getting rid of OSS is a good thing.

I went to the Adobe Wish Form http://www.adobe.com/go/wish and said "please sign me up as a beta-tester for Flash 9 / Linux". ;-)

Re:no hard questions asked....

[kimvette]

Think about it though; if, in your target market, 10% of users are Linux and OS X users, and over the lifetime of your product you expect that the market will support $300mil worth of your wiz-bang widgets, isn't it worth that $30mil to make the product cross-platform to begin with? Why cut out 10% of the market? For legacy products, sure, I can see logistic issues in porting code (introducing new defects, etc.) but where many of Adobe's products were born on Unix or were ported to Unix back in 1.x versions, and the bulk of the code as a result is not platform-dependent, why not retain or attract that 10% of the market?

There are plenty of sources already

[mjbkinx]

There is an open reference by the sswf author, there is swfmill which supports almost all tags up to Flash 8, flasm which supports all action tags for the old VM (up to Flash 8) and haXe which can compile for both the old and the new one (plus, btw, it's a very nice language which can also generate JavaScript and Neko for the open source, JIT-compiling NekoVM). The player would have to support some proprietary protocols (e.g., to stream videos), for code see red5. And of course there's Gnash.

That's just to name a few, there are others. There is plenty of code out there to generate and modify content, the official specification isn't needed for a player.

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[mad.frog]

There isn't 64-bit Flash Player for *any* platform yet. Linux isn't being picked on. 64-bit is being worked on.

The Flash Player is mostly core code. They *are* working from the same codebase on all platforms. The whole point of Flash Player is to have a runtime environment which is virtually identical on all platforms.

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the comments in Mike's blog often consist of "please release an alpha, even if it's incomplete and buggy", while now we get "I wouldn't it past Adobe to release a half-baked Linux Flash 9 player"... ?

Moo

[Chacham]

I got into Linux when I wanted to use a free relational database called MySQL for a web project.

Except of course, that MySQL isn't a database.

Better hard question to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

You could have made that point without even trolling. From the interview:

Q: How big is the team working on the Linux version of the Flash Player?

A: There is a core team working on porting and testing. There are various volunteers within the organization who have jumped into the effort out of general platform enthusiasm; and if we need any advice with particular areas, we bring in people from the rest of the Flash Player team as needed. Of course, we're not making cheese sandwiches here. Throwing more programmers, any programmers, at the problem will not necessarily speed the process along.

At this point, if I was interviewing, I would have realized that he didn't give me any information at all. Yes, *every* project has a "core team". Thank you for stating the obvious, but that didn't answer my question.

Proposed follow-up: "So do you not know how big the core team is, or is it a secret?"

Re:Gee, more no news

[larrystotler]

Hmmm, gee, what about the Flashblocker extention for Firefox? I reguarly block ads and flash and all the other annoying crap that is wasting bandwidth, not to mention my processor making it do stuff that I do not want it to have to do. Anyway, you missed the point of my entire comment. Flash is a poorly implemented, poorly used, and basically annoying standard that we are all better off without. That's my opinion.

SIMPLE ANSWER

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does anyone need a 64-bit version anyhow?

Because on our 64-bit operating systems (both Linux and Windows), applications run in 64-bit mode. It's the norm.

AND FLASH DOESN'T RUN IN OUR BROWSERS BECAUSE 64-BIT APPS CAN'T CALL Macromedia's 32-BIT CODE !!!!!

So the simple answer is, we need a 64-bit version to see any Flash pages at all.

And Macromedia have known that for 3-4 years, yet they do bugger all about it. (There are a few hacks to allow some people to overcome the problem, but they're not at all generic.)

As others have commented, Macromedia are just totally inept and unyielding on this topic, and this current bit of PR shows it even more plainly. "Make suggestions on the Adobe Wish Form", he says. Christ, we've been doing that for ***YEARS***, and we've been totally ignored by Adobe.

They couldn't give a rat's arse about customers. It's that kind of company.

The reason why 64-bit Flash is not available yet

[Wesley Felter]

Flash Player 9 is not just a C program any more. It now has a JIT, and so they have to write a separate JIT backend for every architecture they want to support (although an interpreter might be a good stopgap). They haven't written the x86-64 JIT yet, and it's going to take time for them to do it. Sure, it might have been better if they delayed the release of Flash Player 9 until after they developed x86-64, PPC, ARM, IA-64, MIPS, and Alpha JITs, but it's too late now.

Adobe's upcoming Flash Player 9 for Linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

*yawn*

When a native FreeBSD version exists, then I'll care about flash.

Till then....

*yawn*

you know not what you speak of

[r00t]

You're clueless, and you just let everybody know it.

64-bit code does indeed run faster. The data may be bigger, but the code (.text segment) is actually smaller. There are more registers. The calling convention for 64-bit Linux can pass up to 6 integers in registers. Stack accesses are greatly reduced. This is enough to be noticable to casual observation.

A typical modern Linux has only a handful of 32-bit binaries, certainly not including the web browser. OpenOffice.org is even 64-bit now. Some systems don't even include the 32-bit libraries anymore, thus being unable to run 32-bit apps.

Running 32-bit stuff is gross. It's like running 680x0 code on a Mac, or 16-bit DOS apps on Windows. Normal people hate that.

Re:you know not what you speak of

[Anonymous Coward]

The real issue is that you need a 32 bit plugin for a 32 bit browser and a 64 bit plugin for a 64 bit browser.

64 bit being faster than 32 bit is a wierdness specific to x86-64, on other platforms (like SPARC, MIPS and PowerPC) you'd only use the 64 bit stuff for applications that need the address space.

Personally I'd like to see adblocking functionality in Flash. (Did 99.9999% of Flash on the web just mysteriously vanish?)

Don't worry...

[Anonymous Coward]

I see flash all the time. You're not missing much.

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[Grishnakh]

The video codec VP6 is patented by On2. Maybe it's them who oppose their technology being open source.

Who cares? If you own a patent, you don't get to keep it a secret any more; that's the bargain. In return for patent protection, you have to disclose your methods and implementation.

So if On2 has already disclosed the implementation in their patent, which is freely available from uspto.gov, what's the problem with disclosing the source code used by one of their licensees? It's not a secret any more.

Why isn't this the default?

[biendamon]

If this works (I'll need to test it to know for sure, obviously), why aren't Linux distros already doing this, especially the ones that include Flash by default?

Re:Why isn't this the default?

[PastaLover]

It basically uses software mixing instead of hardware mixing, for the benefit of making flash sync. Your system might take a noticeable performance hit so that is probably the reason no-one is doing this by default. I do remember debian having wrappers to make flash work, not sure how that is implemented though.

Flash 9 will work with alsa which should fix some of these problems.

No mother thong has what is needed

[SimHacker]

Wha chew be talkin bout my mother's thong??!

-Don

Re:no hard questions asked....

[Grishnakh]

Because business people are stupid. "10% of the market? Who cares!"

This is not Linux support...

[Karellen]

...this is Linux/x86-32 support.

Linux is well supported on at least 11 architectures. To claim that a piece of software "runs on Linux" with no further qualifications implies that it runs on them all.

If you're releasing a binary-blob-piece-of-shit that only runs on Linux/x86 (or, even worse, only Linux/x86-32), then you're not "supporting Linux" and should be fucking ashamed of lying so goddamn brazenly. You should at least have the balls to state "runs on Linux/x86-32" if that's what you mean.

(If you're relying on glibc extensions to the standard C library, you should really state GNU/Linux/x86-32, but that's another kettle of fish)

A modest suggestion

[Crazy Eight]

Surely a 64-bit Flash plugin is overdue. Until then I think there are better workarounds than installing a massive i386 chroot just to accommodate a browser plugin. Isn't it possible to code a kind of transparent proxy plugin that wraps 32-bit code? I'd wager that such a project would get a lot of attention on sourceforge...

Re:no hard questions asked....

[StarkRG]

It's partly the previous commenter's idea (10%? that's nothing), it's also that they weigh their potential gains against the cost of producing it.

I think 10% is quite a high number, maybe it's only 90% of home computer users are windows users, but that leaves 10% to devide up between Mac, Linux, and the much smaller ones of *BSD, OS/2, BeOS, Solaris, etc. You also have to keep in mind what the target audience is, and how many of those are going to be using the "Other" category.

In this case how much are they making on the Flash players? Nothing. They're making the money on the development programs. Who buys the development programs? Web designers. Who employs web designers? Usually large corporations to produce horrible websites based entirely on flash. Now, with this large gap between who produces it (Adobe) and who loses the 10% of customers (the websites) it's easy to see why things don't happen very fast.

If they were to suddenly drop the Linux version would the websites feel an immediate hit? No. In fact, they probably wouldn't even notice that there was any kind of change, and if they did they probably wouldn't see the connection (if they even knew that there wasn't a Linux version anymore). If they dropped the Mac version there might be a little more of a hit, but chances are the same thing would happen.

The only way that we're ever going to get Adobe to listen is to have everyone email the companies that use flash on their websites and get THEM to complain to Adobe. Of course, it'd probably just be easier, in most cases, for them to provide a non-flash version... In which case, we're still up shit creek (though we have an extra site that we can use).

What I think really needs to happen is for people to stop using flash for stupid things like entire news sites (yeah, I saw a news site that was done entirely in flash...).

Bandwidth, Latency, and Throughput for pregnancy

[Skevin]

Bandwidth-wise, if nine women had nine months to each generate a baby, then you can say each woman will have created one baby in one month.
The Latency simply was nine months.
The Throughput is the twelve hours of labor it took to push the brat out.

Consider the ramifications from a Network Admin's point of view.
If you could completely eliminate the latency, then you could push a baby out twice a day. You could make millions off of welfare alone!
However, the lowest latency I've ever seen, was that big-bellied chick I took home to get it on with, and she gave birth the very next day. It was only 24 hours between doing her and making my first child support payment.

I'm trying to apply these findings down at our data center, but all I have to show for it is some slippery floors and some unusual-tasting coffee. My boss must have taken an interest in the concept, because I often see him and his secretary attempting a similar effort after hours.

Solomon

Gnash...

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

People need an open clone.

The Gnash project does seem to be making progress, though obviously it still has a way to go. CVS seems to get updated pretty regularly, and at least on my end it seems to be improving.

So, there seems to be at least some hope that us amd64 users won't be stuck using precompiled 32-bit binaries whenever we need/want to look at certain websites.

Re:Gnash...

[ilzogoiby]

Well, I haven't explained myself very well. I meant that we need something like swf, but with unconditionally open specs. Yeah, Gnash is a wonderful effort, but will be forever condemned to be several steps behind the official player, unless Macromedia changes the licensing on the specifications.

Re:Gnash...

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

I meant that we need something like swf, but with unconditionally open specs.

Ah, I see. And I tend to agree.

I was kind of dissapointed (though not too surprised) that MNG never took off. (see also the libmng site).

Looks like it's not TOTALLY dead, but isn't especially active, either.

SVG supposedly has a shot at replacing at least some of Macromedia flash, but that, too, remains to be seen.

Re:The reason why 64-bit Flash is not available ye

[metalpet]

The flash 9 JIT can already emit code for PPC and ARM.

Apparently those have more potential flash users than x86-64 right now.

Ever installed Enemy Territory for Linux?

[Anti-Trend]

There are ubiquitous installers that are totally distro-independent, assuming your OS is recent enough to support its most basic features. All the libraries and dependencies are included in such apps, they are more or less self-contained. This is a bit like the Windows way of doing things, even the installers have a striking similarity. However, the disadvantage here is that your distro's package manager has no part to play in this transaction, so updating, maintaining or removing said software is at almost as much of disadvantage as it is on Windows, except without the registry garbage.

So I guess my point is this: It's great for games to install using such a method, but I think you'll find it far better to have the OS (read the package manager) handle the software installation and upkeep rather than trusting the software to do so. Imagine installing Apache that way, then going on vacation to the Bahamas. Who will they call when it needs a critical update? If the package manager was handling that, plus a cron job or two, you'd be sipping coronas with lime on the beach instead of conference calling in the hotel lobby.

Die, Schlockwave Trash, Die!

[knorthern knight]

Sometimes, I think that the people at Adobe/Macromedia have compromising photos of a whole bunch of webmasters. How else do they manage to get websites to use Flash when it's absolutely unnecessary? Consider videos.google.com. Please don't try to tell me that Google *NEEDS* Schlockwave Trash to simply play videos. Google are the people who brought you maps.google.com which runs just fine on various browsers without proprietary Adobe garbage.

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they get to control how it's used. If they let it come out in GPL or similar, that restriction is specifically removed from them.

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a 32-bit new sempron. Mobile semprons are 32bit.

Re:Still vapourware until *something* gets release

[Grishnakh]

Ah, so it all comes down to control.

Of course, I have to wonder exactly how someone would use it in a way that didn't suit them, since most people just want to be able to view all the Flash content without running into problems like 1) Adobe hasn't released a flash player new enough for Linux that supports all the latest Flash features, 2) Adobe doesn't make non-x86 Flash versions, 3) Adobe steadfastly refuses to make an x86_64 version even though most new CPUs are 64-bit now. Maybe they're afraid that someone will enhance the GPL version to make it bypass advertising.

Re:The reason why 64-bit Flash is not available ye

[Nutria]

The flash 9 JIT can already emit code for PPC and ARM.

Apparently those have more potential flash users than x86-64 right now.

Embedded kiosks?

Re:The reason why 64-bit Flash is not available ye

[metalpet]

If I had to guess, I'd say the PPC effort was well underway before Apple announced it was switching to x86 CPUs.

ARM cpus tend to be found in phones and pdas, and Adobe has great hopes to get FlashLite on every phone someday.

With all that said, I'll be pretty surprised if the next flash player (10?) don't have x86-64 support, unless Vista is able to run in 64bit mode while using 32bit software.

Release Flash Player under the GPL

[Bootarn]

It would be much easier to just release Flash Player under the GPL. Then people could compile versions for their own architecture/OS. Also it would be taking some of the load from the Adobe development team, in favour of better community support.