Wal-Mart Leaks Zune Price

nieske writes, "Engadget reports that Wal-Mart accidentally published online the intended price of the Microsoft Zune; the iPod rival would apparently retail for $284. The price was quickly pulled from the Wal-Mart site. Reports say that Microsoft was flustered when Apple dropped the price for the iPod 30 GB, previously $299, to $249. BetaNews states that 'undercutting the iPod is a major goal of Microsoft's upcoming effort.' Will Microsoft respond to Apple with another price drop?"

Comments

Will MS respond? Yes.

[RootWind]

Down to $229.99 apparently: http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-media/zune s-final-price-22999-msrp-202066.php

Re:Slashdot.....news for people living 72hrs ago

[stubear]

Didn't you get the memo on the new tagline for Slashdot, "old news for nerds, stuff that only mattered 3 days ago (unless it's about the Wii)"?

Not true

[rbarreira]

David Caulton, who works on the Zune at Microsoft, has already said (more than once) in his blog:

A commenter mentioned that they'd "read" that Zune would cost more than the 30GB iPod. I can only say: Don't believe everything you read. I can't specifically talk about price, but I can say that Zune won't be undercut on price by iPod.

And:

I can't say more than what I've said, but the statements "The iPod 30GB costs $249" and "Zune won't be undercut on price" are pretty clear on that point ;)

Re:Not true

[truthsearch]

The problem for MS is they can't stand to lose too much on the sale of each Zune. While sellling the xbox at a loss they recover (somewhat) in the sale of games. They don't have a profitable music service which will compensate for losses on the Zune. Again they'll take a huge loss to get into a new market. But with the Zune they have no way to recover costs later unless they eventually raise the price.

Re:Not true

[rbarreira]

They don't have a profitable music service

Why do you assume they won't have it when the Zune comes out?

Re:Not true

[tb3]

Are you an idiot? or a troll? Microsoft doesn't have a profitable music store. MSN Music, Urge, whatever else they have, they're not profit centers. What the hell makes you think they'll magically become profitable the day Zune goes on sale?

Re:Not true

[rbarreira]

Are you an idiot? or a troll?

The same to you. And I hope you're a troll, because if you're an idiot, you're very idiot. Did apple have a profitable music store before iPod?

Re:Not true

[Ooble]

For the same reason the iTunes Store doesn't really make much profit: the recording industry takes too much out of the revenue. the iTunes Store only exists to sell iPods, and I can't see Microsoft's store being any different.

Re:Not true

[oohshiny]

He also said "don't believe everything you read"... that may apply to what he himself has written :-)

Re:Not true

[rbarreira]

the iTunes Store doesn't really make much profit

Sorry, who was talking about making much profit except for you?

Re:Not true

[YU Nicks NE Way]

Two words: X Box. Four more words: Two billions dollars lost. Including game sales.

Microsoft can bleed money, and not even notice it. More than that, the COGs of the Zune will fall, and, unlike the XBox, but like the XBox 360, Microsoft will be able to recoup those losses later on. MS is many things, but unwilling to learn from its mistakes is not one of those things.

Re:Not true

[tb3]

No, because Apple didn't have any online music sales before they launched the iPod. Then they did iTMS, and it worked.

Microsoft, on the other hand, has tried numerous times to sell music online, and failed each time. That's their track record. What part of that is so hard to grasp?

Re:Not true

[truthsearch]

How will Microsoft recoup losses to the Zune later on? They're not going to sell CDs for $50 like xbox games.

And since when has Microsoft learned from their mistakes? For decades they've been losing money on every venture except their core business. They continue to use the same business practices that landed them in court numerous times. They continue to make insecure software. I have never once seen the company learn from a mistake because they fail to acknowledge they've made any.

Re:Not true

[Gulthek]

No. But Apple also didn't have a string of failed online music stores behind them.

I don't understand how you go from "MS Music Store: Failed", to "Different MS Music Store+Zune: Success" without a significant leap of faith.

Re:Not true

[Volante3192]

How will Microsoft recoup losses to the Zune later on?

They'll mark up the next Office by $100. Problem solved.

Re:Not true

[AttilaB]

They don't have a profitable music service which will compensate for losses on the Zune

Actually, they do have a music service known as URGE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URGE.

Re:Not true

[soft_guy]

1. Price the Zune hardware low so that you can drive sales to the music store.
2. The purpose of the music store is to sell Zunes.
3. ???
4. Make profit from accessories.

Re:Not true

[Saint Fnordius]

Yeah, the iTMS was famous for giving Apple such a small cut of the price that Apple claimed they were barely covering maintenance costs. Apple sells the iPod for a profit, and treats the store as an extra that encourages iPod sales. That means Apple is making enough of a profit that they could cut their margins again once the Zune hits the shelves, forcing Microsoft into a ruinous price war.

Another thing to remember is that Microsoft needs a LOT of marketing to get this thing into the public mindset. Apple already is there, and the creative types like Apple so much they perform product placement without Apple even having to ask.

I just had a wicked, wicked idea: if the new games part wakes enough interest in customers, Apple could start muscling into the GameBoy/PSP territory with an iPod-compatible portable game system. Imagine if they let you not only play games purchased from the iTunes store, but also play DRM-free games written by fellow gamers! Since Apples's strategy is to make money off of the machine and not the software, I could see them doing this.

Re:Not true

[YU Nicks NE Way]

Go back and read my comment -- I told you exactly how MS would recoup its losses. As to the rest...tell me again which browser has had the most critical security issues in the last year? (Hint: it isn't IE.)

Re:Not true

[VertigoAce]

Why does everyone assume it will be sold at a loss? It's based on Toshiba's Gigabeat player, which you can get online for $249. I'll go out on a limb and say that Toshiba has very little reason to be selling an MP3 player at a loss, so the actual cost must be lower than that. Of course, the store selling them takes a chunk out too.

Re:Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait a minute, people have been posting a theory on /. for years that Apple has NEVER made money from iTMS since it opened for business.

Running with that in mind, my thought was that for Apple to continue to operate like that, they would have to keep selling iPods at a higher % above cost over and over again to make up the difference or increase the cost of songs (which may cause a negative effect on sales and profit). Well, now enter competition and Apple recently released some minor changes to existing models and lowered the price. Now they are making even less % profit then before. If the MS player does get a foothold, how will Apple maintain what they have just off of hardware alone when they are competting with others selling hardware?

My opinion here...
People claim that the slick interface and ease of use is why people by the iPod. I disagree that is the case for the the majority of people with them. How many of those people have actually even used another player to determine ease of use or slickness? How many other players were in your face with marketting that the average person knew about? How many people can even name a company or a specific model of portable music player besides the iPod series? These things lead to the assumption that the slickness was NOT the main factor and it was marketting, hype, and NOT wanting to be different (everyone has one, dont be left out) caused the huge sales coupled with the fact that portable compressed music players are new to everyone. Apple was not selling home DVD players and those sales took off in a major way when the price was right. The technology was new and it sold, not a matter of a specific company released their version and then the sales took off. It is not like Apple invented a new wheel and everyone flocked to it and gave up their existing wheels.
If Apple can not maintain the hype to keep its edge. Others will pass it by as portable players will be a cheap commodity in a short period of time just like any other piece of personal technology ever released since the first transistor was created in the lab. Of course with the articfical licensing and restrictions, it will take a little longer but it will get there. MS and Apple will both ride it as long as they can.

I do not care for the Zune or the iPod and view them both as evil because of the DRM involved and I still have a reasonable method to avoid it.

Re:Not true

[I'm Don Giovanni]

This is only the first of many Zune devices. They use this version to try to get a foothold in the market and make "Zune" a recognized brand name, then introduce future Zune's that aren't sold at a loss. They can do this without ever raising the price on the original Zune.

I got this from the above cited gizmodo article that says Zune will be $229, where one of the comments says

Yup. This is what MS has to do to get a toe-hold. Sell this unit at a loss in order to gain some market share and then unleash some more competitive models next year. And the year after that. etc.

We've seen this strategy before from Microsoft.

FWIW, I think MS would LOVE to suck Apple into a price war. Apple's profits absolutely rely on iPod revenue; MS's don't rely at all on Zune. Guess who can afford to lose more in a price war.

Re:Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

OK ... but how will that help them make more money?

Re:Not true

[7Prime]

No, and Apple STILL doesn't have a profitable music store, at least not by much. The iTMS sales basically pay for it's own upkeep and bandwidth, and that's about it. iTMS, alone, is not an ecconomically worthwhile venture. However, they make it all worthwhile with parallel iPod sales. That's Apple's "XBox" model. Now, if you suggest that Microsoft sells the Zune at a loss, like the XBox, and then makes music sales prices competative with Apple... catch my drift? Not gonna happen.

So, before you go around calling other people idiots and trolls, take 2 seconds and try to compile what it is they're talking about, instead of spending that energy shooting your mouth off.

Re:Not true

[zlogic]

The money Microsoft loses on Zune is less than on the Xbox.
And besides, they have a subscription-based fee, something like 15$/month for unlimited music. They have an opportunity to charge users for EVERY MONTH for a long time because if you don't pay, you won't be able to play DRMd music.

Re:Not true

[shaneh0]

The iPod basically accounts for every dime of profit that Apple makes. Who do you think a pricewar would hurt the most? Here's a hint: It's not Microsoft.

Re:Not true

[OnyxIR]

Off topic, but I have to ask, which browser DID have the most critical security issue?

Re:Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

MS will make it up with tie in. See, to use that portable player, you will need the MS music store and an MS OS. Of course this ties into the 360 and Xbox media sharing inititives with MS media center edition. Big full circle. You can break this down as well, IE, MS Office, SMS, Exchange, Outlook, Sharepoint, AD, volume licensing etc.. It is all one big tie in.

This is the exact reason MS the inital judgement in the antitrust case was for MS to be split into two seperate businesses, Operating system, and office and back end products. Of course that did not go very well and was not the final ruling.

Re:Not true

[Saint Fnordius]

Please re-read what I said, as I wanted to remind people that Apple could cut prices even further before they lose money per unit. Microsoft is starting with a loss, since they need to soak up the initial production costs as well. If they are banking on their music store to recoup the loss, then they may be in for a nasty shock.

I don't think Apple expected the iPod to be as dominant as it turned out to be. But their initial pricing strategy of selling just the device has payed off. I hate printers that sell for cheap and then extort usurious prices for refills, and I hate game consoles that sell the console for cheap just to jack up the price of the individual games. I don't want to pay high followup costs, just give me the device and let me tinker with it as I choose.

Re:Not true

[tehcyder]

Four more words: Two billions dollars lost. Including game sales.

Three words: too many words.

Sorry.

Re:Not true

[Scudsucker]

These things lead to the assumption that the slickness was NOT the main factor and it was marketting, hype, and NOT wanting to be different (everyone has one, dont be left out) caused the huge sales coupled with the fact that portable compressed music players are new to everyone.

Oh, it couldn't be that they came out with a vastly superior product and have spent years refining it, could it? Nah, must be hype.

Wait a minute, people have been posting a theory on /. for years that Apple has NEVER made money from iTMS since it opened for business.

Never any signifigant profit. The iTMS is not a loss leader, but they don't make enough money off of it to run it as a separate business. This is because the majority of the price of each song gets eaten up by the record industry and the credit card companies.

I think it might be a different story with TV shows, however, because that industry isn't the all-out cartel that the record industry is.

Re:Not true

[mabhatter654]

nobody has a profitable music store.. the only people making profit from online music is the RIAA. Everybody else is just resellers with magic packaging. Any attempt to make more profit than operation expense would be sponged right back up by the music companies. Microsoft can understand and play that game just like they do, but with offers on the table to "replace" all the iTunes music for iPod owners MS is looking like a ripe target for a big check to the RIAA. MS can't bleed all that money to help the RIAA snip apple's wings, and turn around and try to lose money on selling the actual units too. MS is getting rapidly pinched for cash here even though they have buckets, it's not enough, or wise to use it that way..even for Microsoft's extravagant money spending.

Re:Not true

[mabhatter654]

no, iTunes is the main reason for Apple's success. I've tried other bundled players for years, musicmatch, windows media player, and the bunch of Windows ones over the years were never up to snuff for just PLAYING music...let alone buying it. Apple's from the get go "just worked". Sure it's not as fancy with as many options as the others, but it just worked... without complicated options. I bought a few songs and it was painless as well.. all the way from purchase to burning a CD. When adding the first iPod to the mix, the longest part was installing the ipod software, syncing music was painless... even more so with the newest iPod I just bought... didn't even have to install anything for the actual iPod. Sorry, but no Microsoft product has ever been THAT good.

Re:Not true

[rbarreira]

On the other hand, why can't you accept the *possibility* (I'm not saying it's certain) that a player can make a corresponding music store much more profitable?

Re:Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, it couldn't be that they came out with a vastly superior product and have spent years refining it, could it? Nah, must be hype.

Vastly superior in what way and compared to what? Your statement is exactly what I was trying to counter and you completely avoided my scenario by repeating the same thing as I was trying to point out. Again, how many people that bought an iPod actually looked or even thought of another product to determine what was more superior? How many people have bought an iPod can even name a company or a specific model of portable player other then an iPod. How can you claim a product is superior if you never looked at anything else or even know what else is in the market?

Re:Not true

[Scudsucker]

Vastly superior in what way and compared to what? Your statement is exactly what I was trying to counter and you completely avoided my scenario by repeating the same thing as I was trying to point out. Again, how many people that bought an iPod actually looked or even thought of another product to determine what was more superior? How many people have bought an iPod can even name a company or a specific model of portable player other then an iPod. How can you claim a product is superior if you never looked at anything else or even know what else is in the market?

Because you could say the exact same thing about Apple when they released the iPod, obviously. The closest the company came to flirting with the consumer electronics industry was the Pippen, which was a dud and never heavily pushed. Why wouldn't consumers go with Creative, a well known name in computer audio, with their larger Nomad players? Or how about Diamond Multimedia, who invented the mp3 player in the first place? And then there was Sony, who had dominated the portable player market with their Walkmans and then had compact minidisc players.

When the iPod was released, the conventional wisdom was that it was too expensive, and a Mac-only product would not be a success (PC compatability came later). See Taco's imoratalized "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame." Apple did not do a soft-drink style marketing blitz with hundreds of millions of dollars. Consumers figured out for themselves that the iPod was vastly superior than its compeditors on their own or by word of mouth.

And why was it superior? Physical size / capacity + speed + interface + integration. There were larger players available - if you wanted to carry a desktop hard drive around in your pocket. There were smaller players available - if you wanted to be limited to 256 megabytes or less. The iPod gave you 5 gigabytes. And the others used usb 1.1, wheras Apple used the much faster Firewire. And then there was the scrollwheel and the excellent software integration, and with nice touches like remembering where you stopped listening to an audiobook.

You ask how many people know of players other than the iPod, to which I counter with: how many other players are worth knowing? Yes, the iPod's size and speed advantages have long since been matched, but most compeditors seem to belive that "longer billeted list of features == superior product," which isn't necessarily the case. Consumers who want wmv, ogg, or FM radio support will certinally find options, but most consumers obviously don't care. Finally, saving $20 over an iPod doesn't make up for the loss of the iTunes integration and Clickwheel.

Apple took over the market not because of hype, but because of a winning combination of features. And for a compeditor to make a dent in that market, they either need to do the same, or come out with a large capacity cell phone that doubles as an excellent mp3 player.

Re:Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

Again, you can NOT claim a product is superior and better then another product if you have never used or tried a different product. No amount of typing or you repeating the same thing over and over again is going to change that.

If someone tells me the iTMS solution is better then player X and Yahoo music service because of reason Y and Z, I will believe they have a reason to believe one is superior compared to another. 99.9% of iPod owners have never had another player or a different music server so claiming a product is completely without merit and without any actual comparison of products.

I believe Rackspace offers superior web hosting and customer service compared to everyone else. I've never used or looked at any other web hosting providers.

I believe Scotts makes the best fertilizer on the market, I've never used any other type.

I think Pizza Hut makes the best pizza in the world. I've NEVER in my life eaten pizza anywhere else.

Okay, you like it and you are happy with it but to compare to other things you've never tried and claim one is vastly superior to the other is NOT a fair assessment.

Re:Not true

[Scudsucker]

Again, you can NOT claim a product is superior and better then another product if you have never used or tried a different product. No amount of typing or you repeating the same thing over and over again is going to change that.

Nonsense. Let's got back to the time that the iPod was first released. Did I have to use a Rio to know that I'd prefer 5 gigabytes of storage to 64 megabytes? No. Did I have to try a Nomad to know I didn't want to carry two frikkin pounds of mp3 player in my pocket? Did I have to try everyone elses offerings to know that I'd prefer a 400 Mbs interface to an 11 Mbs interface? Hell no. The iPod was a vastly superior product, and no amount of typing you do is going to change that fact. Deal with it. And you never answered my question: how many other players are worth knowing?

Re:Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, so you HAVE looked and researched other products and actually know about them (at least you did in 2002 when you bought your first iPod). That was not my point. 99.9% or other iPod users have not and are not qualified to determine what is superior. My arguement is NOT about what you think is superior and why, everyone has thier own opinion of what they want and why, how someone makes a decision about a product being superior without knowing what else is on the market is the point of this whole thread, not your own personal decision.

I do not like ANY of the current offerings because of the DRM and vendor lockin involved. I have a really simple and cheap cd player that also plays mp3 tracks from the disc and yes, it just "works". Far from anything you would like I'm sure.

Who pays standard retail prices for electronics?

[Anonymous Coward]

With sites like Amazon.com with its third-party sellers, and similar bargain sites, who cares what the standard retail price of an item is if you'll really be able to get it for tens of dollars less? It's been a long time since I paid retail price for books, CDs, or electronics.

Not $230?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-media/zune s-final-price-22999-msrp-202066.php

A good use for the Zune

[Secrity]

It seems that the Zune has a use after all, as a method to get Apple to reduce it's prices on the iPod.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[kaleco]

It may be a loss-leader though. We know the stories about Apple (ab)using cheap labour to maintain the iPod's profitability at the moment, so I don't know if they can afford to go any lower than their current prices. Microsoft may be using their position to deliberately push Apple into a crisis.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[jellomizer]

You will be crazy to think MS is not using forgen labor to make these thing. I Really doubt that you have a team of American Factory Workers at $20 an hour for 8 hours a day with full benefits. Vs. Some other contry doing the same work for 12 hours a day at $2 an hour and no benefits. A lot of this "Abuse" stuff is basicly due to American Values. Other countries these workers are happy to work at these rates because it is better then starving.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Keebler71]

Microsoft may be using their position to deliberately push Apple into a crisis.

What position would that be? They hold precisely zero percent of the mp3 player market share. Unless you are implying they are going to use their marketshare in OS to bolster their product - which is a pretty specious arguement if you ask me given that iTunes/iPods work great with windows. Now, if MS starts messing with things that give iTunes/Windows integration issues -then you have a pretty solid case. Of course that raises an interesting point... how well does Apple support Play's For Sure devices on its platforms? I'd wager less well than MS supports Apple products...

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Secrity]

Microsoft may be using their position to deliberately push Apple into a crisis.

Apple isn't the first competitor that MS has bullied into a crisis. It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out. Even more interesting will be what happens in the EU, the EU government may not let MS get away with pushing it's only major competitor in the portable music market into a crisis.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[eclectic4]

"We know the stories about Apple (ab)using cheap labour to maintain the iPod's profitability at the moment"

Trolly troll. *sigh* I'll feed you...

Microsoft will also be (ab)using cheap labour to maintain profitability, it's how business is done. The shirt you are wearing, the computer you are typing on, etc... were all made using cheap foriegn labour. Apple voluntarily investigated the accusations, hired a third party to oversee, and has since been shown to be largely false. If Apple "abuses" anything, it's cornering the market on components

"Microsoft may be using their position to deliberately push Apple into a crisis."

Actually, it seems Apple dropping their prices has actually pushed Microsoft into a "crisis". Apple holds 75% of the digital music playing market, and it accounts for about 40% of their profits (all other coming from Mac and software sales). I'm not sure you know what you are talking about.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[kaleco]

I'm not trolling, I acknowledge that Microsoft will do the same. I mention this in a reply to another poster who replied to the same comment. Just because other companies are going to abuse cheap labour too doesn't make it right. FTR, I am a happy iPod and Mac owner and have nothing against the company. Finally, yes, Apple is in the position of strength at the moment, but Microsoft is mustering a storm which will be testing for Apple in the coming months. I expect MS will fail and Apple will consolidate its digital media strategy with the release of the iTV, but one can never be sure about these things. The gadget sites sure are enamoured with the Zune.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[blugu64]

Works pretty well on my MacBook with XP installed... ;)

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Apple just had a major price drop nearly across the board. My favorite was the 30" monitors dropping to under $2,000. Although not a price drop so much as a fire sale I just recently bought Shake for $450, used to sell for $3,000. They've hit market saturation and have paid off R&D expenses so Apple is in a good position to drop prices. Also they are looking at releasing next generation machines soon so they are probably trying to clear some of their stock. Microsoft is forced to play catch up in a market where another company has dominance. Amusing to see it happen. Not the first time for them but this is likely to be some serious egg in the face and investors won't be amused if they are forced to dump Zune players below cost. This one could be more expensive for Microsoft than loosing money on the players. They have been a darling of the stock market but they have proven the only place they can compete is in operating systems and office products. Both of those aren't really competition so much as monopolies they control. Microsoft hasn't been a real innovator within recent memory. If they were on a level playing field Linux and Mac would bury them. Linux for business and Mac home and some pro use. Apple is winning more than it's loosing and their stock is doing really well after a slam in July. If their home theater system takes off it'll be a major slap in the face of Microsoft since they keep promising and failing on that front. Apple is likely to come out of the recent exchanges with much more crediability than Microsoft. In the long term as a company they may be seen as more solid by investors and allow them to grow. It's hard to say if Microsoft will ever loose their dominace. Look at the oil companies. Once a monopoly is functional for a large number of years they become so entrenced they are nearly impossible to shake. Their utter lack of innovation may be their undoing. With Mac systems dropping like a rock and getting more powerful by the day people may start waking up and getting curious. Will they overtake Windows? Unlikely but they could gain 10% to 20% market share which would hurt Microsoft. If they can do that and keep their dominace in innovative ideas and products they may have a slim chance in the long run. What they tried to do through schools may happen through things like iPods and new features. They could be seen as the trendy and more "in" company and gain the youth market. Young people grow up and branding is god as Microsoft well knows. It hasn't happened yet, the iPod didn't have much effect, but it still could. The real power of Microsoft is their domination with third party vendors. I'll always keep one or two PCs around because of software that isn't availible on the Mac. If Mac gains a 10% or 20% market share the bulk of software companies may be forced to do Mac versions where they resisted in the past. More than anything this could kill Microsoft. Most of the software I use every day came with two versions a Mac and a PC. That's a massive shift from the old days when you had to buy a whole new seat inorder to switch. My software kept me locked to Microsoft. The Intel shift caused problems but it was a brilliant move because in the end they wound up with cheaper faster machines that were easer to port for software and hardware companies. The next five years could see a real change in landscape. People are underestimating Leopard and that's just their yearly release. In five years Microsoft will be touting a new opperating system but Apple will be five releases ahead of them. The apple releases aren't patches like Microsofts but true upgrades. They got the painful transitions over with, OSX and Intel. Mac should be fairly stable for awhile allowing for explosive growth. They are in an excellent position to rethink home computering and drastically improve features while Microsoft is forced to waste time and money on security. Microsoft is starting to look like the little Dutch Boy. He's busy pluging holes in the dike while Apple gets to play.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[notneverwired]

What gadget site likes Zune? Everything I've read about it has been negative.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[LoverOfJoy]

What position would that be?

Their financial position, I would guess. They could probably take a much larger loss than Apple, I would imagine.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

MS can afford to dump the zune on the market long enough to cause Apple to become unprofitable and get out of the business or go bust entirely.

When you've got 30Bn burning a hole in your pocket...

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Knetzar]

Apple makes FairPlay work on on Windows.

I'm sure MS is free to make Play's For Sure work on OSX

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Keebler71]

Apple makes FairPlay work on on Windows. I'm sure MS is free to make Play's For Sure work on OSX

Sort of... Apple makes FairPlay work with windows - if you use iTunes. I actually returned my iPod primarily because it only worked with iTunes and would not synch with WMP without external (not-free) plug-ins. (I know... I am in a minority but I prefer WMP over iTunes).

Re:A good use for the Zune

[nine-times]

Ummmmm.... yeah. Microsoft has gotten away with quite a lot of anti-trust violations, but I think if they really started selling these things at a huge loss just to drive Apple out of the market, it can't go unnoticed. Yeah, sure, they sell the XBox at a loss, but that's how the console business works right now. You sell the console at a loss and make your money back through licensing to game developers.

But if Microsoft used Windows profits to bankroll selling Zunes at a loss, for the sole purpose of driving Apple out of the market, so that they could drive people to WMA and vendor lock-in to Windows? It just seems too text-book to me as "Monopolistic behavior". It would be sad if the US government didn't step in and break them up at that point.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[RAMMS EIN]

``how well does Apple support Play's For Sure devices on its platforms? I'd wager less well than MS supports Apple products...''

Apple won't license FairPlay to anyone, so their DRMed music plays only op Apple products (which they do make for Windows). The Zune (according to what I've read) will use something _other_ than PlaysForSure as its DRM, something that Microsoft doesn't seem willing to license. It remains to be seen if they'll be releasing a player for Mac OS X. However, that's software.

When it comes to hardware, iPods won't play Microsoft's DRMed files, and the Zune won't play Apple's DRMed files. Other players probably won't play either of them. At least, that's the way it looks now. This is a change from Microsoft's earlier position, where they were licensing WMA and PlaysForSure to player manufacturers.

So, the way it stands is: you can buy music from iTunes and play it on an iPod, but not on any other player. You can buy music from one of the stores that sells WMA music (e.g. Napster) and play it on one of the devices that support WMA (not the iPod, and not all devices besides the iPod). AFAIK, there is no store that sells music for Zune yet, but when there is one, that music will play only on the Zune. As you can see, it's all one big mess of incompatibilities. So people will just use MP3 for interoperability.

The one format missing from the discussion is Vorbis, which provides sound quality superior to all of them, and is supported by a growing number of players (including most software players, but also hardware players, e.g. from Samsung), but not by Microsoft or Apple's offerings.

See also my essay on the subject. It's not completely finished, and it will probably need updating soon, but at least I won't have to repeat everything here.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[dodongo]

The Zune isn't using PlaysForSure at all -- in fact, it doesn't even support it. So all your DellPod or Creative things with PFS DRM on it, um, all those songs are toast and will not run on Zune according to reports.

This is another side effect of DRM that people had talked about, but I'm not sure that we'd ever seen in the wild: The company that controls a DRM can also break that DRM. MS has done just that with Zune / PlaysForSure(orNotAtAll).

Re:A good use for the Zune

[I'm Don Giovanni]

MS hasn't "broken" their DRM. PlaysForSure devices still work. Those that have a lot of WMDRM songs don't *have* to get a Zune. They can refuse to buy a Zune (since it doesn't play WMDRM songs) just like they can refuse to get an iPod for the same reason.

Zune is in a different division than PlaysForSure, and totally independent. You guys have been howling for MS to be split up so as not to abuse their "monopoly", well having independent divisions accomplishes the same, yet you're still bitching.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[I'm Don Giovanni]

The gadget sites sure are enamoured with the Zune.

Yes, the gadget sites are generating a lot of positive buzz for the Zune. But I don't know if they're really "enamoured" with it, or they're just playing it up because it's an attractive and well-backed alternative to the dominant player (like most computing sites are "enamoured" with Macs, for largely the same reason (apart from the Mac's genuine advantages)).

Re:A good use for the Zune

[dodongo]

MS hasn't "broken" their DRM. PlaysForSure devices still work.

But it doesn't even work on their own damn device, they're going to stymie every attempt for you to use the files you paid for in good faith, and the difference between the two formats doesn't just break backward-compatibility, but compatibility altogether! They did break their DRM. If Apple released a new device, broke AAC support on it, and converted iTunes to a different, noncompatible DRM, there would be demands for their heads. Microsoft's mediocrity in their multimedia performance has been a blessing for them, to that extent.

Zune is in a different division than PlaysForSure, and totally independent.

What the hell kind of monopoly are they running, anyway?

You guys have been howling for MS to be split up so as not to abuse their "monopoly"

Cite it, fanboy ;) I have not said so much as a peep about wanting MS split up.

yet you're still bitching.

It's more than just rhetorical flair, it's a way of life!

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

> iTunes/iPods work great with windows

Wait until the tuesday after the Zune is shipped.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[cayenne8]

"It's hard to say if Microsoft will ever loose their dominace."

Nice post, but, do watch that it is lose not loose. And it is spelled dominance.

Other than that...nice post, but, the lose/loose thing just gets to me...

Re:A good use for the Zune

[rafimg]

Apple won't license FairPlay to anyone

you can buy music from iTunes and play it on an iPod, but not on any other player

So those Motorola phones with iTunes are just figments of my imagination, then?

Re:A good use for the Zune

[RAMMS EIN]

Thanks for pointing that out, and congratulations on being the first one to do so. Apple does indeed mention the RAZR V3i on their site. Do you happen to know any other devices that play FairPlay'd files? I have difficulty figuring it out, because so many players support AAC, but not FairPlay.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[rafimg]

At this time I believe the only non-Apple portable devices that support FairPlay are a few Motorola phones (the ROKR actually had it before the RAZR, though the first version of that phone was a flop). It seems to be a way for Apple to test the waters for the potential of licensing and/or demand for iTunes-enabled cell phones.

I think it's also important to note that, on Mac and Windows platforms, any application that uses Quicktime can decode FairPlay. So there's really no reason why, for example, a Windows Media Center settop box couldn't play any content that the upcoming iTV can. I'm pretty sure Apple actively encourages venders to include Quicktime, so licensing is probably not an issue there. The only caveat would be that such a box would count towards the five computer simultaneous authorization limit, from which iPods (and presumably RAZRs and iTV) are exempt due to having some sort of master key.

So yeah, it's true that FairPlay is not a widely-licensed system, but there are definitely signs that Apple is prepared to adapt if market conditions demand it.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Aladrin]

The same position they were in with browsers. Netscape also 'worked great with windows.' It didn't help it a bit and netscape was doing pretty well on the old legal front on that battle.

Can they still pull that move when people know what they are doing? Time will tell.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[mabhatter654]

Apple should release a demo version of OSX with NeoOffice for regular PCs just for fun to mess with Microsoft's profit margins. Perhaps they could release only Tiger without Quartz or only run in vesa mode so most apps would work, but drivers would be scarce. Ship a bootable CD, or dual install system that could crib off all the windows settings.. becuse Apple has a real license to NTFS it would work perfectly. They could even charge a little bit for it (not looke desperate) and maybe include stripped out XCODE tools for the whole experience. If they marketed it as a "one time tech demo" thing it wouldn't hurt their business too much. There's a lot of people wanting to try it out but don't have access to a mac long enough to be confident in it and drop the cash. Of couse Apple apps (iTunes/quicktime) Offically ported to Linux would have the same effect. Apple threatening MS lunch would make huge waves on Wall Street.. more than some silly Zune device from MS.

Re:A good use for the Zune

[Trumpet of Doom]

You know, "loose" could be correct... as in, setting money loose with the Zune. Just clearing up what he said... oh wait, different usage. All right, then "setting loose their dominance to get marketshare" would be a viable meaning.

Zune? WTF?!?

[XxtraLarGe]

Microsoft isn't going to do squat with the "Zune" for one reason alone. The thing is called "Zune". What does that mean to anybody? Must have been some real genius that came up with that one. I wonder if the package is going to look anything like this?

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[T.E.D.]

The thing is called "Zune". What does that mean to anybody?

Its something to listen to while drinking a Zima?

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[chrismcdirty]

Likely, it will only go the way of this lame mp3 player.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because Ipod was far more intelligent. Here was the meeting:

Marketing droid 1: "shit, everything we make right now is called i - something, what are we going to call it?"

Marketing droid 2: "Ipod"

Marketing droid 1: "That's fucking stupid"

PHB: "I like it!"

and another stupidly named product was born...

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Ubergrendle]

Because "iPod" is a perfectly intuitive brandname? Even 'walkman' doesn't make much sense, although I guess you can walk and you are a membmer of mankind when listening to music.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Orange Crush]

The thing is called "Zune". What does that mean to anybody?

About as much as "iPod" or "Walkman" did before they became the de facto portable audio devices of their day.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[BoRegardless]

What no one has leaked yet is where "Zune" really (secret here) came from!

Zune = Zebra (as in a horse designed by a committee) & a Tune (as in "Microsoft will own everying.")

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[PygmySurfer]

I don't know what it means in English, but check out what it means in Canadian French :)

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[eclectic4]

Pod: a detachable self contained unit. No battery compartment with screws. In fact, it's an enclosed device that you never open, with not one screw on it's surface. The "Pod" fits nicely. The "i" however, seems quite out of place today...

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man oh man, I'm getting a kick reading those old posts. Hehe, talk about way-off predictions (Yeah, yeah, hindsight 20/20..sheesh!).

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its something to listen to while drinking a Zima?

Yes, while wearing your Zubaz.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[TheGreatGraySkwid]

Zima Zuckz. Zo Doez Zune.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Kamiza Ikioi]

All Zune has to do is go wireless, and have more space then a Nomad, and it'll be iPod killer!

BTW, CmdrTaco kinda wishes everyone would forget about that post.

Everyone that used the word "lame" on that post should have their karma permanently set -1... I should set them all to Foe just to be sure not to accidentally take their advice on any future product endorsements, reviews, or stock tips. Case in point (I'll withhold the name of the guilty party, though, you know...):

"I have to agree this is a let-down. For all the secrecy and even Steve Jobs promise of something "revolutionary", as an Apple fanatic I am unimpressed. I was expecting something quite a bit cooler then an MP3 player. "

But of course, this is my favorite comment from there:

"by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 25, @08:40PM (#2476752) This is a Mac product. It is not windoze, unix, linux, commodore, atari, yamaha, etc. bullshit proprietory music format. "

Hahaha... BAHAHAHAHAHA...

My take, everyone will scoff, because it's Microsoft. But, nobody is laughing at the XBox now. I sure laughed at the idea. Visions of Web TV danced in my head at the thought. So, for those who think Microsoft can't pull off an impressive hardware takeover, just look at Sony. Apple certainly is, and they have no intention of becoming another Sony.

My prediction isn't failure. The last MS failure was MS Bob. Since then, MS learned to run with any idea until it flew or they ran it so far into the ground everyone forgot it, but they will never concede defeat. Zune could sell 5 units, and they'll still release a v2.

I see a price war, along with Microsoft partnering closely with partners via Windows media software (geared towards music, and eventually TV and/or movies that play on a PC on the TV, or Zune portable), with Microsoft working to recoup costs via their DRM licensing to content providers. Hello, anyone read today's other MS story? MS DRM To Get Even Tighter. Gee, I wonder why they'd do that; what are they preparing for? [/sarcasm]

Ok, I'll let the cat out of the bag. So you can't take Partner songs, put them on Zune, and plug the Zune into another PC and copy them there. Microsoft is just getting ready to get better deals with content providers (think this is just music? This is the copy protection Hollywood wants too!).

Of course, Apple will fight back. Hopefully they have more than a market share and price advantage up their sleeves. I'm sure they do. And in the end, we'll all benefit. Whoever has the more acceptable DRM, the better price, and the better selection will win. Unless MS starts forcing PC vendors to bundle Zune Players with new computers, then we're all in trouble. Don't laugh, I'm not joking.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[marcomarrero]

Kinda sounds like a sports drink ad, "Zweating in the Zune?". Zero plays for Sure? Alphabetic order maybe...? Vista, Windows, XBox, Y2K bug, Zune..?? Creative Zen killer? Who knows.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that it is shit brown....

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Damek]

You're right, iPod and Walkman don't make sense, per se, but they are at least pronouncable, and are somewhat related to their nature. Walkman implies walking, which was of course the point, you could take your music with you. iPod implies a small container, which was of course the point, you could have a whole lot of music in one little thing.

Zune doesn't seem to imply anything, and has ambiguous pronunciation on top of that, at least when seen for the first time in print. Is it "Zoon" or "Zoonay" or "Zunny" or what? Probably the first one, intended to rhyme with "tune," but for some reason Zune just doesn't roll off the tongue, it kinda blends into speech, having both a fluid start and a fluid end. It's a soft, flowy kind of word. It's begging for a hard consonant, or at least a second syllable to hang on.

The whole thing just feels conceptually vague and hazy, like the mind of a middle manager at its brightest moments. Maybe that's what it reflects...

The name should say something about what it does or what it is that makes it worth buying. iPod and Walkman do that. Zune doesn't. But I can't think of anything better.

In fact, as I've been thinking about this, I'm really starting to appreciate the name iPod. For a little box that stores all your music, and now movies, audiobooks, TV shows, notes, calendars, contacts, and other files you might want to carry around, it really is an "I" Pod - the pod that carrys your stuff around.

I'm kinda surprised the Microsoft version wasn't called "MeBox" or something. ;)

Zune. I guess it really doesn't matter, everyone's gonna call them iPods anyway. I never call my Sharp portable cassette player a portable cassette player. It's a walkman.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[musiholic]

I'm going to release a new player called the Hopi, and follow that up with some various accessories named Dine, Apache, Navajo, and Pueblo.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Moofie]

I thought a camel was a horse designed by committee.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew I'd heard that name before, so with a little help from Google I found this. Since I am far more likely to use AROS than a MP3 player made by Microsoft, that is what it means to me.

Bloody Microsoft, can't even come up with an original name, though that is hardly surprising from a company whose 2 flagship products are named "Windows" (because it provides a windowing GUI) and "Office" (because it is a suite of office software).

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[I'm Don Giovanni]

That video is amusing, but you do know that it was made by MS themselves, right? They recognized that they need less cluttered packaging.
The real Zune box is shown here (the bottom of the page):
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/presskits/zune/ default.mspx

You'll see that the box is decidedly "uncluttered". ;-)
(Actually, it's not surprising since the Xbox guys are doing the Zune, and Xbox 360's box is uncluttered too.)

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Tim Browse]

About as much as "iPod" or "Walkman" did before they became the de facto portable audio devices of their day.

What the hell are they? Hang on, I'll google them...

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[T.E.D.]

Bloody Microsoft, can't even come up with an original name

This is Microsoft, the same company that named an entire OS Bob

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

nobody is laughing at the XBox now.

I am.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[mabhatter654]

I always expected Xbox to fail, or MS to come to their senses. MS really betrayed PC gamers with XBox by holding the industry back 3-4 years to make gaming Xbox only.. only to come back with Vista, DX10 and now the PC is back in the game... whatever. I was looking for an XBox OS for gamers, like XP with all the backwards stuff stripped out. That would have been really cool to dual boot PC games.. heck even have Xbox games work on PCs and PC games act like a console. But MS wants their new monopoly to play with and only sell 1 monopoly OS. There's plenty of Slashdotters that would run "Singularity" if they could get .Net 2 and IE would be just happy.. but MS doesn't think in terms of growing markets anymore... they thing in terms of buying them.

Re:Zune? WTF?!?

[dangitman]

I'll be wearing a Zoot Suit, thank you very much.

Apple story not Mircosoft?

[el_womble]

How will Microsoft survive where they can't rely on piracy and an existing monopoly to gain marketshare (office), can't sell the hardware as a loss leader (xbox), and can't rely on others to sell it for them (windows).

Does this have a successful precident for Microsoft?

Re:Apple story not Mircosoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Youve just listed three successful business models invented by Microsoft. They may have an inferior product, but I wouldnt worry about their business model.

And besides the answer is obvious: contracts with media companies and DRM.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[rbarreira]

That would be great, but I wouldn't trust a sentence starting with "One of our moles on the inside told us...".

price drop

[insideyourhalo]

They will offer an "upgrade" version for $248

My predictions were right,,,

[corroncho]

I mentioned this on the last post about the Zune. The only way MS can gain marketshare is to come in well below the iPod price. If it is a better product, all the specs will just fly over the heads of most consumers. iPod is "the" MP3 player to the masses and the only thing that will convince them otherwise is price.
___________________________
Free iPods? Its legit. 5 of my friends got theirs. Get yours here!

Re:My predictions were right,,,

[Speare]

iPod is "the" MP3 player to the masses and the only thing that will convince them otherwise is price.

Yeah, because that really makes the Keds Title Bout(tm) sneakers a household name and is a license to print money, while the Nike Air Jordan(tm) line languishes in obscurity and financial ruin.

Re:My predictions were right,,,

[MightyYar]

They have to be careful. If it is cheaper than the iPod, that could add to it's image of being a knockoff. It's like wine. People look at all of the bottles on the shelf and don't have any idea what the difference is, but their pretty sure that the $40 bottle is better than the $6 bottle, even though that isn't really true at all. Put yourself at best buy. The 30GB iPod (which you've heard of and seen before) is $249 and this Zune thing is $229. You quickly scan the specs, see that they are about the same, and figure that this Zune thing must just be a cheap knockoff. On the other hand, if it were $259, you might ask a salesperson what the difference is.

All of this is moot anyway - they went after the wrong market, IMO. The most popular iPod is the tiny little Nano. Unless they were trying to create a niche product, I'm not sure why they didn't go after the biggest market.

Who runs MS, anyway? Who thought it was a great idea to compete with their licensees? And then against Apple's iPod, where all others have failed? If I was a shareholder I'd be furious. If I were a licensee I'd be furious. If iPod sales ever go flat (don't they have to at some point?), Apple might get a nice reception to an offer to license FairPlay now... a real "plays for sure".

Re:My predictions were right,,,

[Crispy Critters]

It's like wine. People look at all of the bottles on the shelf and don't have any idea what the difference is, but their pretty sure that the $40 bottle is better than the $6 bottle, even though that isn't really true at all.

I think that there are a few reasons that your analogy does not apply. First, I can't taste the wine in the store before you buy it, while I can try out mp3 players. Second, there are hundreds or thousands of different types of wine in a store. I cannot read reviews of a thousand different kinds of wine to pick a bottle at the store, but I can read an article that discusses the top two or three mp3 players.

The conventional wisdom is that ipods are overpriced but have a great interface and good sound quality (I am not asserting the truth or falsity of this statement). It is hard to imagine a MS product having a great user interface, so why would I consider it unless it is substantially cheaper than an ipod?

Re:My predictions were right,,,

[MightyYar]

Unfortunately I cannot take credit for the discovery of the inverse demand curve :) It applies to many designer brands, and may also apply to the iPod, though I don't really know that - just speculating.

The conventional wisdom can't be that the iPod is overpriced or the market wouldn't bear that price. Indeed, among the people I know with one all are extremely pleased that they made the purchase, save one (who's iPod developed a bad hard drive). It's a fair chunk of change, to be sure, but most people don't think that paying an extra $20 or so to get a "real" iPod is that big of a deal.

It is hard to imagine a MS product having a great user interface, so why would I consider it unless it is substantially cheaper than an ipod?

If that is what most people think, then MS is indeed in big trouble in this product category.

Re:My predictions were right,,,

[Anonymous Coward]

Put your fucking spam in your signature where I don't have to see it, asshole.

Re:My predictions were right,,,

[Crispy Critters]

"I cannot take credit for the discovery of the inverse demand curve"

The question is not whether this phenomenon exists, as it has been proven to. The question is where on the curve the ipod is.

In other words, what price should something have before the "Too cheap, it must be junk" thought starts appearing? I don't think a $200 mp3 player would be perceived as junk. Consider $60 DVD players, $300 desktop computers, and what do cell phones cost these days? (not counting the hidden costs, because the apparent cost is what matters.) Based on (obviously unfair) comparisons to products that would appear to the technically naive as equivalently complex, I would put the "Must be junk" price under $100.

You're right that the concept of "overpriced" needs a definition. Overpriced compared to other mp3 players? Overpriced compared to other similar electronic devices? Overpriced compared to the utility to be gained? Overpriced compared to what the company could charge and still make a small profit? I don't think ipods are overpriced compared to other available mp3 players, or I wouldn't be using one right now. On the other hand, I suspect that Apple could sell them for a lot less and still make a profit.

"most people don't think that paying an extra $20 or so to get a "real" iPod is that big of a deal."

That's the point. If a Zune is $20 less than an ipod, will people buy it, and what will motivate them to do so? Just saving $20 isn't enough.

Re:My predictions were right,,,

[MightyYar]

Somewhere, someday, some economics graduate student beginning his thesis is going to find this discussion after typing "ipod inverse demand curve" into Google. He will probably curse under his breath :)

Re:My predictions were right,,,

[Grishnakh]

The conventional wisdom is that ipods are overpriced but have a great interface and good sound quality (I am not asserting the truth or falsity of this statement).

I'm not saying you're incorrect, but if people actually believe this I think they're mistaken. I'm looking for a 30GB MP3 player and in comparing several different models, it seems like the iPod is competitive, and actually a little cheaper than the others. I'm leaning towards the Cowon iAudio X5 however because I want Ogg support, the additional features might come in handy (FM radio, voice recorder, USB host for connecting to digital cameras), and because I don't GARA about the iTMS.

It's doomed

[clickclickdrone]

Let's be honest here.
Ipod is synonamous with MP3 player now. Even grannies going to the shops for their grandchildren will ask for an iPod by name. We say podcast, podcasting. I can't see people Zunecasting. Unless the Zune offers something substantially better or a great and highly compelling new feature (Actually, I've just thought of one, maybe I should copyright it right now..) no-one else has thought of then it's just not going to sell. The only hope MS have is to back it up with an extremely cheap song purchase system but I can't see them doing that without oodles of DRM involved.

Re:It's doomed

[condensate]

I do not quite agree. I think there are many MP3 Players around, many of which offer more functionality and more ergonomic designs.
The point is that there are many alike, but there is only one iPod. That's why it sells and the others are - well - just players. It's just cool to have one.

Re:It's doomed

[Rob T Firefly]

Name recognition isn't everything. It's a huge chunk of something, but it isn't everything, as evidenced by the hundreds of companies selling their own versions of what average consumers know as Scotch Tape, Band-Aids, Jell-O, Coke, Play Doh, Xerox machines, Dumpsters, and so on.

Re:It's doomed

[Snap E Tom]

I agree.

The people who disagree with you assume that consumers are smart, savy, and will carefully research products before buying. They're not. They're sheep who revel in impulse purchases and go with name recognition as the leading reason to buy a product. Sorry, but I have no faith in people. Of course, this is ultimately not a bad thing because MS deserves a few failures.

Re:It's doomed

[_xeno_]

One major killer feature of the iPod are iPod accessories. If Microsoft wants to compete with the iPod, they'll need to be completely compatible with it.

I have an iPod adapter for my car radio. I hook my iPod up to it and can play directly through the radio. This isn't one of those little "FM radio car adapters" either. It puts the iPod into "control mode" or whatever they call it, and can change playlists and move through the playlist directly though the radio.

This is good, because the radio is designed to be easy to control from the driver's seat without looking at it. The most used buttons (skip song, volume) are shaped to be easy to tell by touch and are positioned to be within easy reach.

As far as I know, there is no adapter kit for my radio for any other MP3 player on the market. Only one for the iPod.

If Microsoft wants to compete with the iPod, the Zune needs to be able to support the accessory market. The iPod may not be the greatest MP3 player ever created, but it has the accessory market, and that provides a lot of value that Microsoft will be missing.

Re:It's doomed

[oohshiny]

Ipod is synonamous with MP3 player now

Maybe in parts of the US. Around the world, people use lots of different kinds of MP3 players.

Re:It's doomed

[clickclickdrone]

>Maybe in parts of the US
I'm not in the US. The only place I can think where it's not likely to be synonamous is China or Japan but I don't know.

Re:It's doomed

[muuh-gnu]

> I'm not in the US. The only place I can think where it's not likely to be synonamous is China or Japan but I don't know.

Europe for example.

The Ipod here is not only not a synonyme for "mp3 player", but also not the most popular player at all. Probbably only 1 out of 10 people you see carrying a player in large western cities doesnt have a Ipod as their player.

I assume that the situation in the poorer, eastern europe is even less favorable for Apple, and that the ipod fractions in the player market are even smaller.

As I see it, the ubiquity of the "Ipod" is mostly a US thing. Probably the same way the words "xerox" or "hoover" never caught on in the rest of the world, "ipod" wont too.

Re:It's doomed

[Grishnakh]

That's probably because anyone carrying an iPod in the UK, at least, will be mugged.

Here in much of the US, muggings aren't that common, since you never know who's carrying a handgun. Thieves go after much higher-value things, like cars (i.e. carjackings).

Re:It's doomed

[MojoStan]

One major killer feature of the iPod are iPod accessories. If Microsoft wants to compete with the iPod, they'll need to be completely compatible with it...

If Microsoft wants to compete with the iPod, the Zune needs to be able to support the accessory market. The iPod may not be the greatest MP3 player ever created, but it has the accessory market, and that provides a lot of value that Microsoft will be missing.

It looks like Microsoft might understand this: "Microsoft approaches iPod accessory makers for Zune."

Licensing fees will supposedly be less than the "Made for iPod" program. The article also hints that Zune accessories may be able to use the built-in wireless technology.

So, will accessory makers offer many good accessories at Zune's launch, which will supposedly result in good Zune sales? Or will accessory makers wait until Zune is a good seller (if that ever happens)? From what I recall, the iPod accessory market didn't really catch on until the iPod became a hit.

Re:It's doomed

[clickclickdrone]

I'm in the SE of the UK and I'd say about 8-9/10 MP3 players I see are iPods.

Ease of use vs price?

[Rik Sweeney]

Microsoft can make the Zune as cheap as they like. What made the iPod successful was how easy it was to add songs to it. I haven't seen the software that's going to be shipped with the Zune but I'm guessing it'll be similar to iTunes.

What I'm interested in though is how Microsoft are going to convert existing iPod owners over to their side. Aren't they offering something like the ability to download (for free) all the songs you have in iTunes onto your Zune from the Zune Marketplace, or are they going to copy all the existing songs from iTunes / iPod onto your Zune?

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[Lumpy]

And can you imagine the DRM nightmare that is going to be on that MSFT device? I have clients all the time needing help moving music they ripped on mediaplayer to a new machine. they will not play because they did not set the "dont encumber my music with drm dammit" flag in the advanced settings hidden in mediaplayer. so I haveto explain to them what DRM is and they still do not understand.

The other biggest failure of the Microsoft device will be that I dont care what service they couple with, iTunes has way more music selection on it that anything Microsoft can come up with.

I dont love the iPod, I'm a non drm kind of guy with my iRivers... but microsoft is not known for open and easy to use.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

The "offer" to replace songs bought from iTunes is still an unsubstantiated rumor that I am aware of. As it is, no one is sure it will play Microsoft's own Plays For Sure format, so why would they do anything for Apple's product? They can't use the iTunes purchased song files, unless they crack the key.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[gEvil (beta)]

I haven't seen the software that's going to be shipped with the Zune but I'm guessing it'll be similar to iTunes.

I'm guessing the software for the Zune will be the pinnacle of usability known as Windows Media Player.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[falcon5768]

No its ability to play "Play For Sure" is well known.

It can't. Microsofts even been on record saying it, which goes into why they sold it off to another company and why a lot of the sites who used it are pretty PO'd at M$.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[rebeka thomas]

What made the iPod successful was how easy it was to add songs to it. I haven't seen the software that's going to be shipped with the Zune but I'm guessing it'll be similar to iTunes.

Oh get off the grass. Almost every player EXCEPT the iPod uses the infinitely simpler method of drag & drop from the filesystem to put files onto it. No screwing around with a proprietary piece of software with all its quirks, just drag the mp3 from the filesystem, onto the device. Simple. It works without needing extra software installed whether you're on Linux, Windows, even another Mac. It doesn't GET any simpler than that, and that's what we already have for the majority of non-iPod players.

Apple may have claim to an easier UI in some parts of Mac OS X, but the iTunes to iPod interface is NOT one of them

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[PygmySurfer]

Exactly how is opening up a file manager and dragging files from one window to another easier than simply dropping your iPod into it's dock and having it sync the files automatically?

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[jumpingfred]

No its ability to play "Play For Sure" is well known.

It can't. Microsofts even been on record saying it, which goes into why they sold it off to another company and why a lot of the sites who used it are pretty PO'd at M$.

Is this really true? The only place I have seen this leads back to the EFF saying this based on their interpertation of a marketing sheet.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[ObiWanKenblowme]

I really fail to understand why someone would think I'd prefer to manage a few thousand files myself, manually, than let a piece of software do it for me (and do it well, as iTunes does).

I'll be the first to say that not every interface is intuitive to everyone, but could you clarify what part of "connect iPod, iTunes syncs files" is difficult?

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[rebeka thomas]

Exactly how is opening up a file manager and dragging files from one window to another easier than simply dropping your iPod into it's dock and having it sync the files automatically?

Flexibility. Not everyone wants to work like that, and if you did, the drag & drop method from the filesystem works there. Simply write a script to sync your music collection on the computer to the media player.

It could be written in less time than it takes to download iTunes, use less memory, run quicker, and again run on any system without being forced to use only those which Apple finds worthy of assaulting with iTunes.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[mlk]

Simply write a script to sync your music collection on the computer to the media player.

WTF?
How is your normal consumer going to do that?

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[oohshiny]

What made the iPod successful was how easy it was to add songs to it. I haven't seen the software that's going to be shipped with the Zune but I'm guessing it'll be similar to iTunes.

iTunes is a mixed bag. If you completely subscribe to its world view, it works nicely. But there are some areas in which it is quite weak. For example, if you use one iPod and two computers, it doesn't work very well, and it keeps creating duplicate songs and entries for many people.

Overall, iTunes is the typical Apple product: well engineered, good looking, with just enough functionality to satisfy the needs of many people while still being fairly simple to use.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[nocaster]

Oh get off the grass. Almost every player EXCEPT the iPod uses the infinitely simpler method of drag & drop from the filesystem to put files onto it. No screwing around with a proprietary piece of software with all its quirks, just drag the mp3 from the filesystem, onto the device. Simple. It works without needing extra software installed whether you're on Linux, Windows, even another Mac. It doesn't GET any simpler than that, and that's what we already have for the majority of non-iPod players.

Just try to tell my wife that dragging an mp3 from the filesystem onto the device is easier than plugging in an iPod and letting iTunes automatically sync it.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[evoltap]

Even if you don't have itunes in sync mode, i would definitely prefer it over dragging out of the file system. It just so happens that all those features itunes is packed are usefull. (i know, crazy) Imagine i want to create a playlist for my ipod and sample the songs as i make it....or i want to see my library arranged by song name.....or i want to convert a song from aiff to mp3. And finally, I don't see what's more difficult about dragging songs from within the itunes window to the ipod icon on the left of the same window....especially since they're organized in any way you want.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[flooey]

Flexibility. Not everyone wants to work like that, and if you did, the drag & drop method from the filesystem works there. Simply write a script to sync your music collection on the computer to the media player.

Flexibility != ease of use. When "write a script" is a serious suggestion for how you should get a feature you want from your MP3 player, you've just moved yourself way outside the mainstream market.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[brunascle]

i've never used iTunes or an iPod so help me out here:

how does it know which files to "sync"? i have lots of media files, going well beyond what could fit on any iPod. how does it know which ones to choose?

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[rograndom]

Oh get off the grass. Almost every player EXCEPT the iPod uses the infinitely simpler method of drag & drop from the filesystem to put files onto it. No screwing around with a proprietary piece of software with all its quirks, just drag the mp3 from the filesystem, onto the device. Simple. It works without needing extra software installed whether you're on Linux, Windows, even another Mac. It doesn't GET any simpler than that, and that's what we already have for the majority of non-iPod players.

Apple may have claim to an easier UI in some parts of Mac OS X, but the iTunes to iPod interface is NOT one of them

Please explain how
1. plugging in the device
2. naviagte to my mp3 files 3. drag and drop mp3 files to mp3 player
4. if you have more music in other folders, go back to step 2

is "infinitely simpler" than
1. plug in ipod, itunes auto launches and auto syncs all my media
2. um, i'm all done, there is no step 2

By my math 3+ steps are not "infinitely simpler" than 1 step.

And iTunes isn't "extra" software. It's been pre-installed on at least the last five computers I've purchased.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[ronanbear]

Simply write a script to ....

Are you serious? Why would you think many iPod owners would want to do that?

iTunes isn't perfect and it's getting more bloated all the time but it's a good full featured player. Sure there are better lightweight music players.

Where M$ would really do well with Zune would be ripping songs from XBox and downloading through XBox Live directly to Zune so that you could simplify things (for XBox owners).

It's Microsoft's only real potential advantage in the accessory market. Target the gamers without computers but with consoles. Sony can (will be able to) do it, Nintendo can do it (through a partner. They won't get into mp3 players) but none of the other current iPod rivals have this as an option.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[falcon5768]

No the market sheet in question leaves it pretty clear. Fairplay and protected WMA and WMV will not play on the device.

Zune software can import audio files in unprotected WMA, MP3, AAC; photos in JPEG; and videos in WMV, MPEG-4, H.264.

Part of the reason seems to be because of the type of protection the thing uses for that whole share amoung people mode they are loving

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[ObiWanKenblowme]

When you first run iTunes, it gives you the option of scanning your computer for media. Once it's been added to the iTunes library (through the initial scan or later by importing CDs, buying music from ITMS, or dragging files in manually) it will automatically update the iPod libarary to match. This is the default behavior, you can go into Preferences and set it to manually update the iPod if you want.

I actually don't know how it handles more files in the library than there would be space for on the iPod - I don't have a video iPod (mine's not even color) and I've only got about 12 of my available 20GB on the iPod filled. I'm sure a little googling would find the answer though.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[blugu64]

Here Here!
While I might like the drag and drop flexability, and writing my own syncing script. The lady doesn't know nor care about it. She just wants it to work, and that's why I love apple most of the time their stuff simply works as advertised without too big a headache.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[mackyrae]

"It's stupid copyright crap that makes your songs expire and not work and unable to move and all that stuff that M$ put in your WMP to make life difficult" doesn't work?

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[Anonymous Coward]

And if I don't like / don't use iTunes? Now it's just a big pain in the ass to mess with another program to manage my music.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[balloot]

You should go ahead and market this magical device which allows a user to transfer music by simply "writing a scipt." I'm sure you'll have dozens of satisfied users! As for the other 99.9999% of America, they'll stick with iPod/iTunes and its horrible uninuitive system where you transfer your music by *gasp* plugging in the device and auto-syncing. The horror!

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[Anonymous Coward]

Automatically through making fixed playlists or rule-based playlists (Smart Playlists). It also has an option to choose manually, although I've never used it.

What happens is that when you first run through setup, it tells you your ipod is too small to sync your entire library, and prompts you to choose from the playlists already present. The option is in iTunes preferences for when you change your mind or build a playlist later.

Using the smart playlists, you can make a playlist that consists of all your 5-star rated songs ordered by the last time they were played, limited to the top 20 (or more). Once you've played a few and resynced, the last played date in itunes also updates to put the next 5 or 10 on there.

Stuff may have changed since I did it, so YMMV - I'm running a 4Gb Mini. I've built 4 playlists which capture different things about my collection, which generally gives me a half-full ipod but switches out songs I've listened to for about two weeks at a time (unless they're 5-star, which tends to rotate quicker). New additions tend to land on there for a week after being added, which I use to rate them.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I believe it's actually easier to use iTunes to sync. Manual file management is fine for small numbers of tracks, but gets unweildy for athousand. iTunes knows exactly where to put the files, so there is no accidental dropping them into the wrong drive or folder. It also knows how it needs to be organized, a file system heirarchy is not the only good means of "drilling" down to a particular file. You can even set it to drag and drop tracks from your library to the iPod in "manual" mode.

It is also considerably more powerful with advanced automation features that you can't get on a file-management system unless you write special scripts. I have set up conditional playlists ("smart" playlists) and it can automatically update any file that fits the criterion based in what's in the ID3 tags. Smart playlists can work from just one critiria or a dozen. For instance, I have it set such that all tracks rated as one or two stars to never be synced to the iPod, and if I mark them at one or two stars in the iPod, it automatically removes them and replaces those tracks with something that hasn't been played before. It's really neat. I have 40GB of audio files but "only" a 1GB nano, this method makes sure that I play through my entire library more quickly than "random" or "shuffle" can on a full size iPod.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[RAMMS EIN]

``microsoft is not known for open and easy to use.''

Perhaps, but Apple has been worse in the digital music market. Where Microsoft has licensed WMA and PlaysForSure to various manufacturers, Apple hasn't licensed FairPlay to anyone. Only one store sells FairPlayed music, only one player plays it. Multiple stores sell WMA with PlaysForSure, and multiple players play it.

Of course, with the Zune, this is all going to change.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[darrylo]

Unfortunately, drag-and-drop is a sucky method for music library maintenance. You still need an external application for this (for searching, ID3 tag editing, etc.).

Oh, and, just because you do not need a feature, does not mean that others do not.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont love the iPod, I'm a non drm kind of guy with my iRivers... but microsoft is not known for open and easy to use.

What makes you think that you have to use DRMed music on your iPod? Rip your own CD, pirate from P2P, buy from online music stores in MP3 formats, etc.. You can be a non-DRM kind of guy with an iPod, just avoid the iTunes Store music. iPod != iTunes Store, sometimes it baffles me that people equate iPod with DRMed music. If you dislike iPod, make sure you do it for proper reasons.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[dch24]

I'd mod you up if I had points. That's a short, sweet explanation.

I'd just add a really minor thing: you can change the 5-star rating to any rating right on the iPod, and next time you sync it's updated in iTunes.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[burndive]

1. plug in ipod, itunes auto launches and auto syncs all my media

The following is an honest question arising from genuine curiosity. I do not own an iPod, and I have never installed iTunes or any other portable media player software.

What happens when I have more music than can fit on my iPod? Is there a "this goes on my iPod" tag that I can apply to songs/albums offline before/during the sync?

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[tehcyder]

What made the iPod successful was how easy it was to add songs to it

Well, I've never found it particularly difficult to do a copy and paste from Windows explorer to any non-iPod MP3 player.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[dangitman]

Gee, that's way more convenient than using iTunes to synchronize my radio recordings with the iPod. At the moment, I record a LOT of radio shows using my machine's FM tuner. I use iTunes' "Smart Playlists" to copy the most recent files (constrained to a maximum total file size, and to certain genres) onto my iPod. Whenever I plug my iPod into the machine, it updates it with the latest radio recordings to my specification, and deletes older recordings if I have already listened to them.

How foolish I have been! It would be so much easier to write a script to do this, rather than spending a few seconds modifying a Smart Playlist! I see the light!

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[dangitman]

Just read through the replies in this sub-thread. Or just Google for "iTunes Smart Playlists" - they are very powerful, while being simple to use. You can set almost any combination of criteria for automatically syncing your songs. It would take a long time to create your own scripts to offer similar functionality.

Re:Ease of use vs price?

[dangitman]

So, what happens when you run out of space, but you want to update it with fresh music based on complex criteria? Do you go and manually delete the tracks you don't want on your player, and then manually add the new tracks you want to listen to? What if you don't know the specific tracks you want to add, but to select new music based on general guidelines? What if you want to hear something unexpected?

Re:Free as in IE

[clickclickdrone]

Maybe that's why Vista prices are so high - you get a 'free' Zune?

Sexy sells

[Rik Sweeney]

Once again on the price, you need to make a product sexy to sell it. The dancing silhouette with the white headphones sold the iPod because it looked good.

So Microsoft, I propose you do this:

A dancing Ballmer silhouette.

My pulse is rising already just thinking about it.

Re:Sexy sells

[gEvil (beta)]

Replace the woman with Ballmer and you're all set.

Re:Sexy sells

[lazarusdishwasher]

If Ballmer had jailhouse rock on his zune would that mean the commercial will feature ballmer dancing with a wooden chair rather then throwing it?

Re:Sexy sells

[sys49152]

So Microsoft, I propose you do this: A dancing Ballmer silhouette.

Ask and you shall receive: http://www.macboy.com/cartoons/ballmer/

Re:Sexy sells

[oohshiny]

You know, it's perfectly OK for you to be attracted to dancing men--we are open minded and tolerant here. But, for God's sake, have some taste!

Re:Sexy sells

[smcdow]

My eyes... the goggles do nothing!

Re:Sexy sells

[Anonymous Coward]

so is my lunch :(

Re:Sexy sells

[A_Non_Moose]

A dancing Ballmer silhouette.

and the theme song should be: Skid Row - "Monkey Business".

(aw, crap, now I've got that song stuck in my head....ah, well, better than the image, I suppose)

Re:Sexy sells

[tyme]

Rick Sweeney wrote:

So Microsoft, I propose you do this:

A dancing Ballmer silhouette.

My pulse is rising already just thinking about it.

That's not your pulse, it's your gorge.

Re:Sexy sells

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're having a heart attack.

Re:Free as in IE

[Gkeeper80]

Why not? Apple does it

Or is it?

[Klaidas]

Maybe emploees of walmart just want to get cheaper iPods/Zunes for themselves and did that on purpose? :-D

Re:Slashdot.....news for people living 72hrs ago

[MECC]

How the hell did this get modded 'redundant'?

Anyway, go here.

Re:Hey!! That's not fair!

[Anonymous Coward]

Then Apple will just launch the jPod. All the features and looks exactly like the iPod, but cheaper than the Zune. They save on cost by not drawing the tail on the j, so it looks a lot like an i.

Another one?

[Klaidas]

Yet another leak? *reminds of this*

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[gEvil (beta)]

Hey, if anybody's gonna have some good insight into the underworld, it'd be a mole...

$15 isn't much of an undercutting strategy

[ShinyBrowncoat]

BetaNews states that 'undercutting the iPod is a major goal of Microsoft's upcoming effort.' Will Microsoft respond to Apple with another price drop?"

Yes, I imagine they will SHOCK the world with a $234 price tag...

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[neoform]

So, the question is, will MS do with zune as they did with the xbox and sell it at a loss just so they can overtake apple.. ?

also, why is a zune price leak in the apple section?

First reviews of Zune are out!

[spacedx]

Wireless. More space than a Nomad. Still lame.

Re:Slashdot.....news for people living 72hrs ago

[MightyYar]

Because the criticism occurs in the comments of every slashdot story.

And because clearly this is not the type of news that matters if it is a few days old?

Big dif

[eebra82]

I don't exactly consider the Zune to be an iPod competitor. At least I don't know why an iPod fan boy would buy a Zune. I do however think that Microsoft has an excellent player that is set to compete with Creative, iRiver and all the other major non-iPod mp3 player developers.

The Zune has a totally different set of features, such as wireless connectivity and such, so if Microsoft sells it for anything less than a 30 GB iPod, it's just going to be another bl*wjob for Steve.

Can you say Monopoly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft have no concept of competative pricing. Their only pricing policy is to milk the market for all it's worth.

Re:Can you say Monopoly?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Microsoft have no concept of competative pricing"

You have no concept of how to spell "competitive".

GP didn't include the link

[giafly]

... is why it got modded 'redundant'. Thank for for fixing that.

cnet, the reg, inquirer, had this story yesterday

[Anonymous Coward]

cnet, the reg, inquirer, all had this story yesterday - picking up the scraps ?

Re:Who pays standard retail prices for electronics

[MightyYar]

I agree, wait a few months and Zunes will be on Overstock.com in the "iPod Killer" category :)

ObBallmer

[sharkey]

Undercutting the iPod is a major goal of Microsoft's upcoming effort, say these sources.

"Dumping, dumping, dumping!!!"

$20-30 Cheaper

[searchreplace]

$20-30 Cheaper didn't help Creative/MPIO/iRiver so how will it help Microsoft?

Only $20-30 more for the real iPod. That won't slow down Apple.

Re:Free as in IE

[EVil Lawyer]

Because Apple makes a significant profit on the hardware they sell. Microsoft isn't in the PC manufacturing/retailing game.

Linux compatible

[rajafarian]

Wouldn't it be funny if they advertised it that way? In small print, anyway!

Would be good for consumers if they react

[Opportunist]

Not that anyone wants a Zume, but it would sure be nice to get an iPod more cheaply!

Re:Slashdot.....news for people living 72hrs ago

[MyLongNickName]

So, the next time there is a BSOD criticsm of Microsoft, or a 'Diebold needs to be open source', or 'Bush is a moron', it will get modded redundant?

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[tb3]

Is this dumping?

I'm serious. With their huge cash reserves, Microsoft could enter the market in toilet seats tomorrow, price them at 99 cents, drive everyone else out of business, and drive up the price to $10,000 a seat.

We've already seen them put Netscape out of business by giving away the browser, so can Apple (or any other manufacturer) cry 'foul' and accuse Microsoft of dumping? What are the laws in this situation?

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[rbarreira]

Are freeware writers also dumpers? Do they start being dumpers if they later start charging for their software? Mmmmm...

Re:Slashdot.....news for people living 72hrs ago

[Antifuse]

Yes, and every Slashdot reader also reads arstechnica. Oh, wait, no they don't.

Re:Slashdot.....news for people living 72hrs ago

[MightyYar]

We can only hope. They often just get modded "Troll", though. Really the whole problem with the moderation system is that the mods don't use it to moderate the discussion, they use it as a voting system. It's really just digg with another mechanism. Slashdot's mod system is really just a fancy thumbs-up/thumbs-down. The main advantage is that I can go into the prefs and change how each item affects the score. In your case, I recommend changing the "redundant" setting :) I tend to give each "positive" score double the weight of a negative score. This still filters out the true trolls without totally squashing unpopular viewpoints (such as Windows doesn't really crash much, or Bush actually has a point).

meeting quota

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey ease up. There's a quota of MS-oriented headlines to meet.

Mmm..

[dep01]

Ahhhhhhh, you just gotta love competition!!

Brown is for me!

[aronschatz]

I don't know about you guys, but I'll be getting a crappy color Zune for sure! I think the money is in my back pocket somewhere...

Everywhere is war

[dp_wiz]

The wars i like more than HolyWars is a Price ones.

Yes, but my point is...

[kaleco]

Both companies will be making similar products at similar cost (using cheap labour etc). Apple has to maintain profitability on the iPod since it's a core Apple product, whereas Microsoft can afford to sell at cost or maybe a small loss in order to put strain on Apple. I would have thought this was illegal, but since it's standard practice in the console industry I'm not so sure. I think Apple is reorganising its iPod product, though. The Nano is being repositioned as the bread-and-butter line with the iPod being sold as a sort of 'premium' product. The Zune will come off second best to the Nano since most people don't want to socialise with their technology (mobile phones aside :P). An MP3 player is something you use when you are going somewhere, at the gym, bored or whatever, and not something you want to play around with infront of your friends swapping DRM'ed files and watching video. The raison d'etre for a digital audio player is... music, and by all accounts the Nano does this well. It's difficult to add value beyond that. In short, the Zune has arrived just as the HDD iPod has left the stage.

Re:Yes, but my point is...

[MadEE]

Both companies will be making similar products at similar cost (using cheap labour etc). Apple has to maintain profitability on the iPod since it's a core Apple product, whereas Microsoft can afford to sell at cost or maybe a small loss in order to put strain on Apple. I would have thought this was illegal, but since it's standard practice in the console industry I'm not so sure.

It is illegal it's called "dumping". The difference between video game consoles and this is the intent, video games consoles make their money back through the licensing of games and to make the unit more affordable to the user. Dumping on the other hand is done mainly to hurt a competitor.

Re:Yes, but my point is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting. DRM and social exchange of music/video seem to be totally opposite goals. MS track record of maximizing DRM "features" at the expense of the customer is going to collide head-on with any features that try to exploit social networking.

Re:Yes, but my point is...

[Froomb]

It is illegal it's called "dumping".

There is no such concept as "dumping" within a national market. It only comes into legal force in international trade. Large companies are free to price products in a predatory fashion and drive their competitors out of business.

Eventually, Microsoft will have make a profit

[blueZ3]

xBox, the 360, now the Zune... You have to wonder how long shareholders will allow the company to "invest" in money-losing ventures.

There's always the hope (for Microsoft) that pouring money into these losers will allow them to drive competitors out of the market. But that isn't really a viable business strategy in the long run. Even the IE/Netscape battle wasn't really won based on Microsoft's ability to compete on price (free)--there was actually a time when Netscape sucked and IE was fairly good. That's why MS "won" that browser battle (though the war isn't won yet).

It will be interesting to see how long Microsoft can continue to shift money from their dominant OS and Office products to money losers without creating an investor revolt.

Re:Eventually, Microsoft will have make a profit

[I'm Don Giovanni]

"You have to wonder how long shareholders will allow the company to "invest" in money-losing ventures."

LOL
Give me a break; the "shareholders"? They're not in any position to "allow" or disallow investments.
The "shareholders" can dump their stock if they don't like it.
I'm sure some "shareholders" dumped their stock when Microsoft was wasting money with Windows 1.x, 2.x, and "Oh no! Windows 3.x, another money drainer! That's it! I'm out of here!!".

But MS isn't a growth stock anyway, it's now a dividend stock, and the percentage of money being poured into the investments is too small to make a difference in the dividends (but have the potential to greatly increase the dividends if the investments work; that's almost a no-lose proposition for dividend investors (not so for growth stock investors)).

Lock-In

[RAMMS EIN]

When the Zune is introduced, it will have a new DRM system, incompatible with the PlaysForSure that Microsoft has been pushing and that many of their partners in WMA are using (from the Wikipedia article on Zune). This is similar to Apple's iPod, which uses FairPlay DRM, which Apple won't license to anyone. The Zune won't support Apple's DRM, and the iPod won't support Microsoft's.

So, Apple and Microsoft will both be pushing their own portable music players, with music being sold in formats that play nowhere else but in their own products. Hmm, where have we seen that before? Of course, neither of them is going to support the open and superior (in terms of audio quality) Vorbis.

What's funny about it is that Apple, which one one side professes to be all supportive of open source and open standards, has been beating Microsoft at the lock-in game on the other side. I guess that battle will soon get a second round.

Re:Lock-In

[norminator]

When the Zune is introduced, it will have a new DRM system, incompatible with the PlaysForSure that Microsoft has been pushing and that many of their partners in WMA are using (from the Wikipedia article on Zune). This is similar to Apple's iPod, which uses FairPlay DRM, which Apple won't license to anyone. The Zune won't support Apple's DRM, and the iPod won't support Microsoft's.

The other thing that's funny about that is Apple's troubles with iTunes songs in France. France used to be able to look at PlaysForSure and say "See, they're playing music on different manufacturer's devices..." Now they can't point to Microsoft as the good guys.

Re:Lock-In

[RAMMS EIN]

Now that you mention it, Apple's FairPlay has trouble not only in France, but in other E.U. countries as well: see, for example, this story about FairPlay in Scandinavia.

Apple and the EU

[kaleco]

Yes, quite so, but it seems like the EU is currently turning up the heat on Apple too over its DRM.

Re:Apple and the EU

[Secrity]

Good point. Depending upon how MS structures it's music download service, MS may have the same EU regulatory problems over it's DRM as Apple. I think that France backed down on it's objections to Apple's DRM, though.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realise that's precisely why they are called moles, doncha? Course ya do. Yer smurt!

Zune is a loss leader

[snowwrestler]

The product it is leading is Vista.

In the 1990's Microsoft spent thousands of man-hours creating a pen operating system that died on the vine. It was a pure cost to the company, no profit. But the key point is that it died AFTER the GO Penpoint operating system died. Martin Eller, one of the Microsoft staff involved, even has a quote in his book:

"This wasn't a thing about making money. This was all about 'block that kick.""

Apple makes money selling iPods, but the big play for them is the iPod halo effect to sell more Macs. Macs (and Mac software) are much more profitable than an iPod. The release of Vista, with all its associated angst, represents a big opportunity for Apple. Microsoft will fight that halo effect with everything they've got, even if they have to lost money on every single Zune. They make their money from Windows, and this is all about protecting the Microsoft market (and mind) share.

Re:Zune is a loss leader

[EastCoastSurfer]

Good point and Apple has been doing well at it. They are currently on pace to sell 1M notebooks this year. That's 250k more than analyst originally though. Sure it's not a lot when compared to the entire market, but what it shows is that apple and osx is growing. The 'ipod is hip' is making macbooks and thus osx hip too.

I think the real upcoming battle ground is going to be in peoples living rooms. Who will supply the device and service to deliver content over the internet to my TV in SD+ quality? The current players that seem to be shaping up are the cable companies, apple, MS, and sony. It's going to be interesting how this plays out, especially since cable has such a huge lead with their ondemand type of service.

Re:Zune is a loss leader

[iluvcapra]

"This wasn't a thing about making money. This was all about 'block that kick.""

Yeah, so where was Microsoft's goal in that half of the game?

No disagreement, but I think Microsoft's real genius is in rationalizing their failures, if only to themselves.

Re:Zune is a loss leader

[Redundant offtopic t]

"so where was Microsoft's goal in that half of the game?"

How about this--having no competition for selling a relatively expensive offshoot of Windows for those overweight, expensive swivel-screen laptops.

Re:Zune is a loss leader

[Grishnakh]

Microsoft will fight that halo effect with everything they've got, even if they have to lost money on every single Zune. They make their money from Windows, and this is all about protecting the Microsoft market (and mind) share.

As an anti-Microsoft person, this is why I'm hoping that Rockbox can be ported to run on the Zune. That way, I can buy a Zune, get a great piece of hardware (MS is known for selling pretty decent hardware: mice, etc.) at an ultra-cheap price, cause MS to lose money by selling it to me below cost, and then run great software on it and play my Oggs, while never buying Windows or any other MS software.

Re:Zune is a loss leader

[Nalgas D. Lemur]

As an anti-Microsoft person, this is why I'm hoping that Rockbox can be ported to run on the Zune. That way, I can buy a Zune, get a great piece of hardware (MS is known for selling pretty decent hardware: mice, etc.) at an ultra-cheap price, cause MS to lose money by selling it to me below cost, and then run great software on it and play my Oggs, while never buying Windows or any other MS software.

If you're really anti-Microsoft, you won't buy one at all, not matter what's ported to it. They lose more if no one buys it at all. They've already paid a lot of money for R&D, which goes to waste (somewhat: maybe they got something useful from it that can be applied towards something else, but everything towards that specific product is sunk) if no one buys them. If people do buy a bunch of them, though, eventually at some point it's going to become cheap enough to make them that they stop losing money on them. Regardless of when that happens, the more people buy them, the more widely it will be supported, which makes it more attractive, which gets more people to buy them, which gets them more market share, which... Not exactly what I would think "an anti-Microsoft person" would be hoping for.

Re:Zune is a loss leader

[tehcyder]

Apple makes money selling iPods, but the big play for them is the iPod halo effect to sell more Macs

Well, there doesn't seem to be much correlation so far between the overwhelming success of the iPod and the market share of Mac computers.

And the reason for that is that if you buy an iPod, it is just as easy to use it with a Windows machine. There is simply no need to splash out on a relatively expensive Mac simply because you have an iPod.

Re:Zune is a loss leader

[Grishnakh]

I don't know about this. I would think it's like people buying the original Xboxes and running Linux on them. If the product is a loss-leader, and really costs more to make and sell than they receive in sales dollars, per unit, then the only way it's profitable is if people buy the overpriced games for the unit. People buying the Xbox1 and running Linux on it defeat that scheme, causing MS to lose money on each unit, right? Shouldn't the Zune be the same way? It may give them more "market share" if people buy them and then just run Rockbox on them, but "market share" isn't very useful if it doesn't actually result in profit because all those people aren't using the accompanying music service.

Re:Zune is a loss leader

[Nalgas D. Lemur]

A bunch of people did buy the Xbox to run various things on it like XBMC and not to play Xbox games. However, that increased the number of Xboxes sold, and they were able to say, "Hey, look at us. We have the number two console (by a bit), even ahead of Nintendo's. Come make games for us!" It makes them credible, whether or not more Xboxes were actually sold for playing games than GameCubes or not (probably, since I'm guessing the XBMC etc. market doesn't make up the whole 3 million difference, but that's hard to measure). And now the successor to it is doing pretty well, at least in the US so far. Their goal seems to be more long term than "make money immediately" with a lot of these things, and it might actually work. They can afford to lose some money for a while until they establish a strong enough foothold in a new market and try to figure out how to make the right product or how to make money off it with version 3.

Lowest price - might be the winner

[Damek]

I'm not interested in the Zune unless it can play all the stuff I have now, and connect to everything I have now. I have some MP3s and a whole bunch of M4As (ripped myself, not from iTMS). I also have a couple PCs and a couple Macs. I only got an iPod once it could connect to all the machines. Its usefulness as a removable drive is part of the deal. It's more than just a music player.

OK, I'm not the average person. The average person is going to say, "well, time to get one of those iPod things," go to Target or whatever and say, "where are your iPods?" A store person is going to point to the MP3 player section, the person's going to see this thing and say, "well, that's the cheap one, I'll get that," and go home and use it.

That's the kind of person I see buying this. For the chic people, or tech people, the Microsoft brand might be too damaged, plus the player doesn't offer much new beyond the neat photo/song-sharing thing. Sure, the interface is flashy, but from what I've seen that would just get in the way for me.

The Zune (got what a horrible name, not even sure how to pronounce it) may succeed in being the first real iPod competitor, by sheer force of Microsoft's juggernaut market power, but I don't think it's enough to knock the iPod off its throne.

Re:Lowest price - might be the winner

[moochfish]

You're right, you are not a regular user -- you fit the demographic of an early adopter. As such, a failure to cater to your "everyday" uses will hurt them a whole lot more than you give credit. Remember, lots of other MP3 players cost less than the iPod. They have a boat load more features and capacity, and yet they still failed to beat Apple.

Re:Lowest price - might be the winner

[scuba964]

The average person responds to cool, not to price. iPod has the market on cool.

Apple iPod

[Like2Byte]

I can't say enough about my 30G Video iPod. I love that thing! It is by far the most useful little device I've ever purchased. I like the interface (for the most part) - it intuitive and easy to use - even my mother and father can use it. I use it everywhere - programming at work, in my Jeep, at home doing choirs, biking, hiking - you name it. I'm soon to buy a clock radio that uses my iPod to wake me.

I like its weight, too. It seems sturdy enough though I have a rubber case for it with a neck strap that's long enough to fit in my shirt pocket. Although, I did have to stop turning the volume down while it was still in my shirt pocket - spinning a finger around my shirt-pocket-area did elicite a few strange looks (which were promptly explained away - much to their relief!!). ;)

As for other players...I'm sure they have their pros and cons over the Apple iPod; but, I've grown to attached to Apple's product why should I change? I'm satisfied with iTunes as it works pretty damn well on my systems.

I'm not a serious Microsoft basher - they put food on my table - but why should I toss all my money at MS when Apple seems to have hit a home run?

Re:Apple iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

> at home doing choirs

You must be a priest

(Yeah, yeah, I know, there's a special place in hell for me)

Re:Apple iPod

[tehcyder]

at home doing choirs

I hope you're not a priest, that remark could be taken the wrong way ;-)

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[aplusjimages]

They need to bring the price down even more and also make the Zune a wearable head piece, kind of like Billy boy is wearing on the icon above. Tight.

"Insightful" slashdot comments on initial iPod:

[Anonymous Coward]

Raise your hand if you have iTunes ...
Raise your hand if you have a FireWire port ...
Raise your hand if you have both ...
Raise your hand if you have $400 to spend on a cute Apple device ...
There is Apple's market. Pretty slim, eh? I don't see many sales in the future of iPod.
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=22940&ci d=2467504

Breaking news: Aplle doesn't CARE about windows, or about market share...If you have a Mac, this is a SWEEEEEEET thing. If you don;t have a Mac, guess what, Aplle[sic] does not car.
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=22940&ci d=2467634

iPod vs Zune = Netscape vs IE

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how history is about to repeat itself.

Netscape users scoffed at IE when it first arrived. After all, IE was a web browser with "0% of the browser market share" and "people associate Netscape with the web" and "how will MS convert all those people who have all these bookmarks, mail settings, etc in Netscape?", and so on. And we all know what happened.

A lesson should have been learned from this: never underestimate the ability of Microsoft to squash a competing product, no matter how superior that product may be or how much marketshare it currently has.
Seriously, there has been enough history to realize that.

With the Zune set to be priced lower than the iPod, and with a few features that iPods don't have (e.g. the wireless sharing thing), I predict that the iPod is doomed. I'm no MS fan and I'm no Apple fan either. I use Linux and am as anti-MS as the next guy, but I think it's obvious what is about to happen. My guess is that within 18 months of its release, the Zune will overtake the iPod. You heard it here first.

Re:iPod vs Zune = Netscape vs IE

[mimio]

Very well said, Nostradamus

Re:iPod vs Zune = Netscape vs IE

[katchins]

A parallel can also be said of
        Windows (Networking) vs. Novell (Networking)
        Word Perfect vs. MS Word
        Lotus 1-2-3 vs. MS Excel

and my favorite (currently in progress)
        XBOX vs. Playstation

Re:iPod vs Zune = Netscape vs IE

[evamedia]

Maybe if they give a free one away with Vista, crap analogy IMO.

Re:iPod vs Zune = Netscape vs IE

[garylian]

I think you are failing to take into consideration the fact that this is a whole different set of circumstances.

Netscape lost the battle over IE due to one primary reason: IE was pre-bundled with Windows.

Now, you may scoff at that, but think about it.

A person new to PCs and the internet goes to the local Wal-Mart/BestBuy or whatever, and buys a computer. They come home, get it set up (or more likely, get help from a friend/relative) and try to get to the internet. And what pops up? Various MS assistants that lead them directly to Outleak, IE, and WMP. Case closed. If that person wanted Netscape, they had to download it from somewhere, or get a copy on a CD from their ISP. And even though MOST ISPs sent a copy of Netscape to the customers in the late 90's, the damage was already done. Customers were now familiar with IE and Outleak, and had no reason to switch.

The difference today is that both Zune and iPods are a computer attachment. And the purchaser of said MP3 players won't be looking at a PC for the very first time 99% of time. Nor will it be their first time on the internet.

Apple is flat out DOMINATING the portable MP3 player market. I am sure they are working HARD to keep their trademark alive, so the iPod doesn't become the Xerox machine , or the next aspirin. Because iPods are now synonomous to the world with MP3 player.

I just don't see MS getting the Zune to that point.

Re:iPod vs Zune = Netscape vs IE

[Anonymous Coward]

What about all those Netscape users who switched to IE? You're only talking about people who were "new to PCs and the internet" who went to buy a new computer. There were far more people who were already familiar with PCs and weren't buying new ones who made the switch. The same thing will happen with the iPod.

Re:iPod vs Zune = Netscape vs IE

[tehcyder]

and my favorite (currently in progress)

XBOX vs. Playstation

I appear to have mislaid the relevant slashdot memo, could someone remind me how evil Sony are now in comparison with MS?

Re:iPod vs Zune = Netscape vs IE

[garylian]

Yeah, I was one of those Netscape users that switched to IE, because they stopped doing decent updates of IE.

And when Firefox came out, I switched to it for much of what I do.

Your arguement didn't sway me, or anyone else, I think.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[NatasRevol]

If they're convicted monopolists, then yes.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Arwing]

The term 'dumping' is usually only applicable to international trade and that's when a country sells goods to another country at a price below cost. The aim for such tatics is usually to destory another country's economy therefore it's usually viewed in negative light. In this case, I don't think the word 'dumping' applies since it's a common practice to sell hardware for cheap and try to gain profit from selling software (xbox and pretty much all gaming consoles).

I would call this a simple price war, which is good for us.

Profit!

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Update online music store.
2. Change the DRM in Windows Media 11.
3. Release Zune for less then the IPod.
4. Profit from music store.

I smell an antitrust lawsuit

[WhiteWolf666]

Somewhere in the world, anyways.

Apple's got a succesful business model. They don't tie their player to an operating system, and it sells at a good profit, and it beats out competitors in a flat marketplace.

Microsoft steps in.

They:
1. Sell their player at a loss. They make statements to the media indicating that no matter what price the iPod sells at, theirs will be cheaper, profit be damned. This is not about competition, this is not about servicing the market; this is about blowing away a competitor. Microsoft has made that clear, and intention does matter in anti-trust cases.
2. Tie it to their Operating System. Sync a Zune with OS X? Sync a Zune with Linux? Not to mention that apparently the "sync" software, WMP11, applies WMP DRM to CDs you rip via their software. iTunes doesn't do this. And the base of the matter is that the new WMP will come with all editions of Vista; the EU is *still* pissed off about this, and MS is about to release a peripheral that will ride on this WMP.
3. Windows XP & Vista will have a commanding marketing share over OS X; no risk of bundling with OS X, plenty of risk of bundling with Vista.
4. Zune will already run afoul of France's new anti-DRM law. And as I see it, unless WMP11 allows you to import unencumbered MP3s into your library, the Zune will be vastly more infringing about France's law.
5. There are no signs that Microsoft is intending on supplying API documentation regarding Zune and WMP11 interfaces; even though Zune could most definitely be interpreted to be an extension of the OS (especially by the EC), and the EU will use this behavior to demonstrate that MS has no intention of documenting APIs under their settlement until the APIs involved are outdated.

Under the current administration, the U.S. isn't going to do anything. But the EU? I have a feeling that Apple will file a lawsuit "Real Soon Now(TM)", and seek that the EU proactively implement remedies upon Microsoft's future behavior.

Re:Stereotypical German?

[Psykechan]

Zis Deevize eez comink ZUNE. Eet ist ze future ov portable meedia.

Eet ist nein vaporware! I tell you eet ist comink zune. ZUNE!

Sorry about that. Like most /.ers, I learned my German from signs in the CIS lab.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if they are open source, as you expect to get some 'payment in kind' in the form of other input into your project.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[rackhamh]

Is this dumping?

I'm serious. With their huge cash reserves, Microsoft could enter the market in toilet seats tomorrow, price them at 99 cents, drive everyone else out of business, and drive up the price to $10,000 a seat.

We've already seen them put Netscape out of business by giving away the browser, so can Apple (or any other manufacturer) cry 'foul' and accuse Microsoft of dumping? What are the laws in this situation?

Yes, and we all know how Microsoft ran up the price of Internet Explorer once Netscape was out of the picture...

Wow

[include($dysmas)]

ohmygoshohmygoshohmygoshohmygosh!!11!!11oneoneone! !!this is amazing .. oh wait, i just remembered i dont give a shit.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Saint Fnordius]

One can only hope that Microsoft will take the double hit of setting a loss-price, and also of not moving enough units to threaten Apple. Instead, they may end up cannibalising the WMA market.

I see this as turning out like Apple's disastrous clone experiment, where the clone sales took away from Apple itself without expanding the Macintosh market any.

As for why this is in the Apple section, I guess it's because of the whole "iPod killer" leitmotif. Slashdot needs a section for handheld gadgets from MP3 players to PDA's, really.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Jeff DeMaagd]

The difference is that software can be replicated at negligible costs. Hardware costs money to produce each one.

I really don't think that applies as many other businesses "dump" the product but make a tidy profit on the parts and accessories that go with them. I won't state the colloquial phrase for that practice because I think that phrase is dumb and over used.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Yvanhoe]

It would be good that MS eats Apple part if only to show how evil DRMs can be.

Are church picnics dumping?

[maynard]

'Cause, people give out free food there. I mean, the church is huge. Shouldn't we prosecute churches under antitrust law for adversely impacting the local restaurant industry?

No.

Churches, the ELKs, and Free Software developers, et all are loosely knit social groups which form for a specific noncommercial purpose. They are not registered businesses with the express purpose of turning a profit. As such they don't fall under antitrust laws. Nor should they. Your argument is a strawman.

Re:Are church picnics dumping?

[Zhe Mappel]

Churches, the ELKs, and Free Software developers, et all are loosely knit social groups which form for a specific noncommercial purpose. They are not registered businesses with the express purpose of turning a profit.

Your analogy is wanting.

There's little similarity between churches and free software developers. Most churches are far from being "loosely knit social groups," having instead a highly developed dogma, membership requirements, rules, and hierarchichal structure that is the opposite of loosely knit. Among the many differences, though, between churches and free software devs one is critical: the special legal status allowing churches to make largely unregulated and exclusively untaxed profits.

Churches generating sizable revenues frequently use them for the furtherance of their members' interests--spiritual, social, entertainment, business, and otherwise. In this sense, they're less like social groups than corporations. See, for instance, the rise of big, multi-functional, highly profitable megachurches.

If our laws were less guided by sentimentality or superstition, then we'd see to it that money donated, tithed or earned through church business activities would be treated exactly as it is by any for-profit entity in society. So, too, if we wanted to approximate a more just political system, then we would more actively restrict churches from using their protected financial position to influence political issues and elections.

Re:Slashdot.....news for people living 72hrs ago

[MightyYar]

I was just listing that as an unpopular viewpoint, not claiming that it actually occurs :) But he occasionally says some things that make sense. He's not as fucked up as most politicians on immigration, for instance.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Gilmoure]

If everyone suddenly had to pay for Apache...

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Gilmoure]

Can I bum a sig?

Just because I'm paranoid does not mean I'm not out to get you.

Just because you're paranoid does not mean I'm not out to get you.

Just because I'm paranoid does not mean I don't like nekkid chicks.

Just because I'm nekkid does not mean I'm not out to get you paranoid.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[ookaze]

Yes, and we all know how Microsoft ran up the price of Internet Explorer once Netscape was out of the picture...

Yes we know, and for those skeptical people out there, here it is : they ran up the price by not paying anymore people on improving Internet Explorer. Which means that before, the price of Windows included the cost of the dev team on IE. After Netscape was out of the picture, the price of Windows didn't include that cost anymore, but was still the same.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[dyefade]

WTF!?

It's NOT about the music.

[sjbe]

The Zune is basically Microsoft trying to "Netscape" Apple. A huge percentage of Apples sales and profits these days come from the iPod. This not only benefits Apple's iPod "division" but it also funds development of the Macintosh, OS X and all the other goodies Apple is involved in. If Microsoft can hurt iPod sales, they limit Apple's ability to intrude on the marketshare of Windows. Microsoft is getting into this market as a hedge and to hurt a competitor. When you've got almost as much cash as your competitor's market cap, you can afford a lot of pain to protect your key products.

Microsoft got into the Xbox for much the same reason. While they would like it to be profitable, a huge part of the reason they got into the market was to prevent Sony, Nintendo and Sega from supplanting the PC as the main computing device in the household. If the PS3 could replace your PC and doesn't have Windows, that's not a future Microsoft wants.

Remember that even now, virtually all Microsoft's profits come from Windows and Office. While they'd like to diversify their revenue, they also are going to do everything possible to protect those product lines.

Re:It's NOT about the music.

[stuartrobinson]

What makes you think that Microsoft worried about game consoles supplating PCs as the main computing device in the household? It seems more likely that they were worried about game consoles replacing PCs as the main gaming device in the household. Surely the fear wasn't that people were going to start doing their taxes with a Sony Playstation!

M$ is Fscked on This One

[mpapet]

The good news may be that Microsofties may have reached that state in a mega-corp where the sycophants essentially create a reality distortion field of their own so things like:

Team of Analysts and 10-slide powerpoint:
"Ipod price is so high and our margin would be so good we can dominate this market." (actually said with convoluted marketing speak as to create plausible deniability)
PHB's:
Nod. Say nothing. "Okay, thank you." Analysts leave room.

PHB's continue:
"We can leverage our synergies and create new markets....." "Get a product development team together and get started right away! Bob, I'm putting you in charge of this. Make sure it complies with Restricted Media Systems group policies."

Fastforward 6 months:
Bob says to his PHB: "I'm shocked, -shocked- I tell you that Apple can lower their prices like this. Don't worry Boss project MP3 player it's going to be great it's got a cool wireless feature for sharing. Retail Sales group is very excited."
Boss: "Does it comply with Restricted Media Systems group policies?"
Bob: "Oh yes sir!"

Fast forward 3 months:
Bob revises resume. 200X-2006 Zune Project Manager. Maximized Profits, Opened new markets, Created Dynamic Synergies with global partners. Leaves MS to join web 2.0 startup selling AJAX GUI's.

Fast forward another year:
Zune product $9.99 at your nearest pc inventory liquidator. Project is buried and never spoken of again. Bob's boss is promoted to Senior Executive Vice-President of Security Products. Bob gets another job at another startup as the last organization "..failed to satisfy market synergies."

Seriously, Microsoft doesn't have a chance when the BOM on the flash-based units is about $10. Probably less. The Flash RAM is likely the most expensive thing in there. The disk based models are less than $10 before paying for the disk. So maybe $20 tops BOM cost? The advertising/hype will be clever and everywhere and they'll lower the price like crazy to get it off the shelf at Worst Buy.

This looks and smells like a DOA.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Gilmoure]

The guy asked for a sig. I gave him four. I'm not greedy.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Garabito]

I'm serious. With their huge cash reserves, Microsoft could enter the market in toilet seats tomorrow, price them at 99 cents, drive everyone else out of business, and drive up the price to $10,000 a seat.

It would give a new meaning to "per-seat license"

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[bberens]

The difference is that software can be replicated at negligible costs

I challenge you to replicate the Windows API at negligible cost. If you make it, our friends at WINE would like to talk to you.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[operagost]

I'll wipe with the End-user Latrine Agreement (EULA).

Stink of death

[fwarren]

The Zune may not be the device consumers want. But I think Apple is taking no chances. If they can undercut the price with an iPod even for just a few months. The Zune will end up with the stink of death about it. Then soon after that only to be found on Tiger Direct and SurplusComputers.com

I don't think Apple will have to sell at a loss for to long, just long enough for people to know that the Zune is a dog, and that everyone who is anyone is still buying an iPod.

Re:Stink of death

[Anonymous Coward]

Just long enough for people to know that the Zune is a dog

So what is your experience with it?

Re:Stink of death

[Moofie]

When has Apple ever tried to compete on price? They don't need to.

Conspicuous exception: The nano is a pretty darn good deal for a solid state player.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Ethan Allison]

Let's hope so. $230 Zunes sound pretty kickass.

Loss, not for Apple

[Fengpost]

Neither Apple nor MS will take a loss on their MP3 player. The 30 GB 5G iPod was estimated at USD 151 last year. http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/business/showAr ticle.jhtml?articleID=172303152 The new iPod is only an update no significant change was made. The cost should've gone down significantly by this time of the year, despite the brighter TFT LCD screen. Everyone knows how fast the hard drive drops in pricing. iPod's volume does wonders in pricing negotiation as well. Yet Apple is selling at USD 299. So Apple will possible take a hit in the gross margin with the new USD 249 pricing. Let's look at MS. The Zune has bigger TFT LCD screen, wireless module and toshiba design and manufacturing ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5288042.stm ). These factors can add significant cost to Zune. I can't comment on the pricing of the EE parts since it is known, so I will assume it is comparable to iPod. Also the retailers (Bestbuy, Circuit city...) will need take their 10 to 20 percent margin as well. So it is clear that Apple will make less money on the new 30 GB iPod and MS' margin will be squeezed if the rumor for the low pricing for Zune is true.

This is /. after all

[thepotoo]

Scrap Ballmer...Let's get a dancing Linus Torvolds!

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[MickoZ]

And of course, if you include the cost of IE in the Windows's price (fair or not), then there will be people complaining that including IE in Windows is "wrong", anti-competitive, etc.

Funny about how Microsoft do a lot of effort to stay backward compatible with other companies's software (with business reason of course and probably a bit of corporate choice about being very backward compatible).

In the end, there will always be someone that complain. It is so easy to complain (saying this is not a reason to not complain at all...).

However, if people complain about IE, why not complain about other stuff in windows that other people do (even the interface shell, there is alternative).

If I kill someone (for a reason), if he is an important person or not, I still removed the life of someone. In practice the value of his life might be different because he is important or not, but basicelly, it is a person.

If we threat IE a way, we should apply the same reasoning to less popular, less competitive or less "buzyne$$" softwares.

Other OS does ship with a lot of software bundled (and I guess that is what a lot of customer expect, they want it to work now. Same for a car for example. You can however modify, improve, etc. later IF YOU WANT/NEED/WHETEVER), be it a media player, a browser, text-editor, calculator, etc.

Title

[MoxFulder]

Did anyone else read it as "Walmart leaks prune juice?"

Re:Title

[tehcyder]

Did anyone else read it as "Walmart leaks prune juice?"

oN

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[DittoBox]

So, the question is, will MS do with zune as they did with the xbox and sell it at a loss just so they can overtake apple.

How did MS try to over take Apple with the X-Box? :)

I get where you're coming from, though. John C. Dvorak for the first time ever, was actually coherent and said on Twit, "Why did Microsoft introduce IE? It was to undercut and undermine Netscape. Why the hell did they do *that*? There's no long-term benefit...it was out of spite."

Microsoft created IE in the mid to late nineties because they thought the Internet was going to be the next big thing. Well, they were right. But IE is only the software that downloads the HTML and renders it, nothing more. They did it to undercut Netscape, which wasn't a competitor and really wouldn't have been, afterall Netscape's software ran on their platform (sounds like "The Party"...). Microsoft already had a huge market share, they didn't need to create IE to "get in on it."

Just like now, the iPod isn't competition. It's just doing fantastically well and Microsoft wants a cut. Welcome to monopolyville.

Re:OMFG I CAME IN UR EYE

[Anonymous Coward]

That's right, bitches. You need fire or acid to kill me, otherwise I'll regenerate.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Drooling Iguana]

C:\>copy \windows \windows2

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[DECS]

Are you too young to remember that Netscape claimed the web platform would make Windows irrelevant?

Microsoft wanted to destroy Netscape on the browser end to make sure most web apps were tied to Windows, while also trying to fight with Netscape over web server software.

Netscape was a competitor as a server software vendor AND as a rival platform.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[lotrtrotk]

Just like now, the iPod isn't competition.

Sure it is... If you got an iPod, you want iTunes. And then you want the media tools that go with it. And then you want the OS to go with the media tools. And then you want the system to go with the OS.

Before long, people realize that PCs & Windows aren't the only big kid on the block. MS wan'ts to stop that from happening.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Breakfast Pants]

"Microsoft wanted to destroy Netscape on the browser end to make sure most web apps were tied to Windows, while also [releasing internet explorer for mac and unix]." Doesn't make any sense to me.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[MrYotsuya]

Is this dumping?

I'm serious. With their huge cash reserves, Microsoft could enter the market in toilet seats tomorrow, price them at 99 cents, drive everyone else out of business, and drive up the price to $10,000 a seat.

It may not be dumping, but their customers sure will be.

Toshiba makes the Zune (supposedly)

[I'm Don Giovanni]

It's been reported (though not confirmed) that Toshiba makes the Zune hardware; that the first edition of the Zune is a rebranded Toshiba Gigabeat plus wifi plus ties to the Zune store.
See:
Zune revealed by FCC as "Toshiba 1089"
iPod Wars: Microsoft and Toshiba Team Up Against Apple

If so, then you're right that MS is using foreign labor. Though whether Toshiba uses sweatshops like Apple does is open to question.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Kuxman]

IE runs on unix? Where? When? How? wtf mate?

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

But at the same time, they crippled the Mac and UNIX versions. Then, they added ActiveX to Windows IE, i.e. using their patented method of "Embrace, Extend and Extinguish". Why did they need to make a Mac and UNIX versions? To effectively kill Netscape. At that time the Mac and UNIX market were practically owned by Netscape with a tiny slice went to NCSA Mosaic. As long as the markets held up, Netscape had a little breathing room and a foothold to battle IE.

At the end, most web apps are designed for IE, IE owns the browser market, IE for Mac and UNIX is dead, Netscape is dead and IE is a huge vector of malware infection due to ActiveX. With the exception of the last one, everything went according to MS's script.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[DECS]

Well if you look at the result, IE support for the Mac and Unix was as comprehensive and functional as POSIX support in NT.

Everything about IE was designed to kill Netscape. If IE were Windows only, then Netscape could have gained a stronger foundation as the only browsers for Unix and Mac users, which would have isolated IE. By pretending to compete with Netscape cross platform, they could then drop their cross platform browsers as soon as Netscape had been destroyed. Which they did, if you recall.

Microsoft failed to do the same thing with QuickTime, and it came back to haut them: they gave up on making WMA fully cross platform (after promising such for the Mac), and left QuickTime to develop on the Mac. That gave Apple a mature media platform to counter WMA with the iPod/iTunes/Fairplay, and Apple used it to totally destroy WMA.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[lordkuri]

http://www.microsoft.com/unix/ie/

It's long since dead, but they used to have a version for it.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

For a short period of time, Microsoft made versions of IE for Solaris and HP-UX. This was around 1999 or so, IIRC. I remember several of us at work running the Solaris version on a Sun Ultra-1 and not being very impressed. It was unbelievably slow, much slower than Netscape on Solaris.

If they sell it at a loss

[rsilvergun]

in order to drive out competition, that's dumping. Next question please.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[tirnacopu]

c:\>copy c:\win311 + c:\winnt35 + c:\progra~1\intern~1 + c:\progra~1\window~1 + c:\micros~1.net c:\vista
would me more appropriate ;)
Except copy doesn't have a recursive switch and xcopy can't do multiple sources :p

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

In this case, I think a maggot would be the most effective purveyor of microsoft inside information.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Al Dimond]

Does IE exist for Mac or Unix anymore? It existed for Unix for a short while, Mac for a longer while, and now both are gone. Whether intentional or not (I can certainly think of less devious reasons for discontinuing the IE-Unix and IE-Mac lines), this has an "embrace, extend, extinguish" type effect. They had to initially release to all platforms to credibly compete with Netscape and eventually beat them. Once they'd beaten Netscape and gained dominant market share *then* they could really tie web apps to Windows.

I'm pretty sure that DirectX never existed for Mac or Unix anyway, so even while those versions of IE existed there still were webapps tied to Windows. And of course Mac IE was way behind Win IE for a long time.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[legal_asshole]

If Microsoft will sell me a Zune for the same price as IE cost me during the IE vs. Netscape wars, DRM be damned, I'll be getting me a Zune...

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Pollardito]

if my memory serves, Netscape was free at that time too. they were making their money off their webserver, and claimed later to have had plans to start charging for their browser later that IE disrupted but who can say?

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[tb3]

No, not quite. It was something like Netscape was free for personal use, but $29.95 (or something like that) for business or professional use. At the time, you could buy Navigator in a shrink-wrapped box in the software stores.

Offtopic

[Cybrex]

Love your sig! :-)

Re:Offtopic

[ShinyBrowncoat]

Thanks! Still flyin'.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[LordVader717]

How did MS try to over take Apple with the X-Box? :)

He was referring to Microsoft selling at a loss. Microsoft designed their original XBOX very hastily, and didn't worry about the cost of things too much.
To compete with Playstation 2 and GameCube, they had to sell their consoles way below their production costs.

Re: MS toilet seats

[Anonymous Coward]

It would give one the opportunity to piss all over a microsoft product.

Need new bifocals

[Rinzai]

Just for a scary second there I thought the headline was

WAL-MART LEAKS PRUNE JUICE.

No, really, nothing to do with the topic, but I had to let you know in the interest of full disclosure.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[SideshowBob]

Well if MS is to be believed, IE is an 'integral part of the Windows OS'. And yes, the price of Windows has been going up.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[jcostantino]

Microsoft killed IE a couple years ago (around OS 10.3) when Safari started to really take off. MS's official explanation on this was that they couldn't complete on the Macintosh platform because Apple was using undocumented internal commands to better integrate Safari and thus give it a performance boost over a 3rd party competitor.
Sounds familiar? It ought to...

No, the cat does not "got my tongue."

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> "Engadget reports that Wal-Mart accidentally published online the
> intended price of the Microsoft Zune; the iPod

Microsoft: How dare you! We're a hundred billion dollar corporation, the most powerful in the world!

WalMart: WTF ever, we won't sell anything Microsoft then.

Microsoft: Now now, let's not get hasty...

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Drooling Iguana]

Yeah, I'd forgotten how crap the DOS/Windows commandline utilities were...

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Skuld-Chan]

The difference is Microsoft knowingly selling something for less than it cost to make it for the simple goal of putting Apple/iTunes out of business.

I never could get that of Microsoft - its not simple enough to make a product that people like and buy because its well made. They sometimes do that too, but often it seems their entire marketing/product strategy is geared towards putting people out of business. I've worked for several software companies - none of them MS and none of them operate like this.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[senatorpjt]

If they're going to keep doing this, I'd rather have a $199 iPod.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

maggots are what you find in Apples.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[toopc]

No, not quite. It was something like Netscape was free for personal use, but $29.95 (or something like that) for business or professional use. At the time, you could buy Navigator in a shrink-wrapped box in the software stores.

To this day Historians are still trying to find someone that actually paid for Netscape Navigator. It's rumored that such people actually exist, but no proof has, as yet, been found.

MOD PARENT FUNNY

[Foerstner]

I just used my last two mod points in another article. Oh, god, what a missed opportunity.

Just write a script! I need to put that in my sig.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[kingturkey]

Microsoft isn't selling the Xbox or the Zune at less than cost to put Sony/Nintendo or Apple out of business, with their market share that is impossible at this time. Their philosophy for the Xbox (and possibly the Zune) is not to sell below cost in order to kill their competitors, it is to sell below cost in order to establish a market share and brand recognition so that they can sell at a profit and then possibly attempt to destroy their competition in later iterations of the product.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Saint Fnordius]

Um, how would this show that? The Zune uses a different DRM, but it's still DRM. I've found the DRM used by Apple more palatable in its terms and in its structure, since it uses the Fraunhofer MPEG-4's DRM layer instead of an in-house solution. Apple also is constantly fighting the big music houses that want to charge higher prices and make FairPlay more restrictive.

But yes, DRM is bad for society and bad for consumers. I would even go so far as to say that it's bad for artists. That's why I call DRM Data Restriction Methods instead of what the media cartels want to call it.

Re:Hey!! That's not fair!

[tehcyder]

Then Apple will just launch the jPod.

and pay Douglas Coupland royalties on each one?

Re coop lost revenue

[Anonymous Coward]

As Microsoft moves their software to online use instead of purchased CDs and DVDs they will transition to annual purchase/lease and eventually to monthly fees and even pay-per-use. The shorter the cycle the more the public will allow/accept M$ to charge.
The golden goose for M$ has always been software. It will continue to morf into what ever it needs be to maintain M$ global dominance. In doing so it will continue to pay for any other project that suites Bill's whims.
Microsoft will purchase a working music-for-sale site within one year from Zunes release to market.
As Apple's handheld devices grip slips to M$ and others, M$ grip and their even stricter DRM that are coming will make the crack that Linux can been seen through, even bigger. Everything changes.
Need more coffee, time for work, whoopy!

KIMO

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[bob frost]

What you're referring to is "predatory pricing," defined as pricing at a loss with the intention of drivinga competitor away. It's illegal in the US under the Clayton Anti-Trust Act of 1914. Whether the FTC or DoJ would bother to enforce is doubtful given their record recently.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this dumping?

I'm serious. With their huge cash reserves, Microsoft could enter the market in toilet seats tomorrow, price them at 99 cents, drive everyone else out of business, and drive up the price to $10,000 a seat.

Well, dumping does require toilet seats...

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[tb3]

THANK YOU!
I thought there was a term for it, and I knew dumping wasn't right, but it was the closest thing I could think of.

Re:Will MS respond? Yes.

[dyefade]

Yeah, yeah, I got it, was quite funny, in a way. It's just the fact that your comment was so unexpected/out of place in the rest of the discussion!