Why Gaming Sucks On Linux

lseltzer writes "Efforts have been made to improve the situation, but things have actually gotten worse for gaming on Linux rather than better. If you're a gamer you're just plain better off running Windows and dual-booting (or VMing) between the two operating systems than hoping your games will run in Cedega or some such product." From the article: "So where does all of this leave Linux gamers? One word: Windows. Yep, you read that right. If you're a gamer, do yourself a favor and just buy a copy of Windows and set up a dual-boot system. Why bother to torture yourself with the headaches presented by Linux gaming? Why should you continually not have the games you want to play? Why settle for half-assed solutions that might or might not run the games you crave so desperately?"

Comments

In other news...

[cadillacjoe]

...water is wet and the sky is blue.

Re:In other news...

[h4rm0ny]

Yeah - I think this is jsut an attempt to get a big argument going between zealots so that they can get some revenue for linking or something. Can't see much other reason for it.

Re:In other news...

[gameforge]

While I see your point, humor me - go tell an engineer they can't design or fix something.

WARNING: Do NOT stand in between this engineer and the task you've delegated them; in doing so, you risk life itself!

The same psychology goes on when FUD like this shows up. Ultimately, this BS leads to good things.

People said this about Linux and servers 10 years ago ("Where does all of this kernel recompiling and software patching leave you, average unimportant IT guy? Windows...")

Re:In other news...

[Greg_D]

They said exactly that 10 years ago about Linux and the desktop, and the Linux desktop user space is still incredibly fragmented and nearly unusable by the average joe. Fix and standardize the desktop FIRST, along with tools and guidelines and standards, and THEN when it's usable, worry about the games. THAT way, when I load Kubuntu and actually put enough software on it so that it's actually usable, I don't waste time watching a goddamned bouncing cursor sit on my screen for 10 seconds simply because I've decided to use Kate or Kedit or deal with the glitches that come with trying to run GTK enabled software in KDE.

Some have decided that open source must carry with it the penalty of indecisiveness. Most people just want something that is easily configurable and works. Give it to them, and then the games will start to come as people find a reason or twenty to switch.

When most people won't use what you freely give away, there's a real freaking problem there, especially when it's something as potentially feature rich as Linux could be.

Re:In other news...

[gameforge]

They said exactly that 10 years ago about Linux and the desktop, and the Linux desktop user space is still incredibly fragmented and nearly unusable by the average joe.

Ten years ago, I was using RedHat 4.1. I remember spending days editing my .fvwmrc so it would look right and all of my programs would be on the menu. Look how far it had come five years ago. Look how far it's come now.

My dad uses Kubuntu; he's an oil man. He loves all the little games for KDE. But OpenOffice, Firefox and Thunderbird all work just like they do under Windows, for his purposes. Of course, Dell won't support him, so he'd be up the creek when it breaks if it weren't for me.

I think the best you could say is that end user minded distros (i.e. SuSE, *buntu, etc.) may be more aggrevating for power users because there are too many choices and it's difficult to tell if you're really getting the most out of it.

I think some people (don't know about you) get the lack of the same support, software & hardware being available confused with an inferior desktop solution. Is a vanilla Kubuntu setup with all the Kubuntu Approved software installed really that lacking as a desktop environment? Even if all of the commercial packages were available for Linux as well?

Fix and standardize the desktop FIRST, along with tools and guidelines and standards, and THEN when it's usable, worry about the games.

Right... but we're talking about people who don't need standards and can get Linux to work fine on their own. These people have a reason to find get their games to work, because they want to use Linux; they don't need convincing like average Joe might. Thing is, once they figure it out, they tell everyone about it, and then everyone can get it to work.

When most people won't use what you freely give away, there's a real freaking problem there, especially when it's something as potentially feature rich as Linux could be.

That's not fair. They have no choice... it's like you said, they want it to just "work"; and their Dell or their HP already does. With Windows. Always with Windows. Dell and HP (for example) have an incredibly big incentive not to preinstall OSS systems.

Incidentally, I run Kubuntu on my Thinkpad T42 (purchased June/'05), and it starts Kate in less than two seconds on a fresh boot. I dislike the bouncy cursors too; I turned off Launch Feedback to solve this.

I draw a parallel between OSS operating systems and the Internet. First the government started using the Internet; then universities did. Some ten or fifteen years after PCs were infesting offices all over the world, most hardware and software providers eventually started to support the Internet by standard.

Many businesses, government facilities such as airports & motor vehicle departments, universities, etc. are making the switch to 100% OSS. Linux isn't getting any worse; I think (read: in my opinion) Windows will be lucky if Linux and/or other OSS operating systems haven't caught on significantly by the time Vista goes obsolete.

There will be a breakpoint where either running Windows games on Linux is trivial, or game developers will begin porting their games to Linux.

So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Keruo]

they probably just boot their xbox to run with standard bios and play games just fine?

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[ZakuSage]

Or simply buy an console, which has far more game support then Windows, better games (especially of late), and better controls (sorry if I barf at the idea of playing a game with my keyboard).

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[secolactico]

Other than "game support", all of your other points are debatable.

Better games? Maybe, unless you prefer RTS or MMORPG
Better controls? I know purists that would barf at the tought of playing FPS games with anything other than a keyboard/mouse combo (myself, I like either one just fine).

But yeah, this article doesn't add anything new to the state of gaming on linux. Move along.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as console gamers, especially the kind that think a gamepad provides better control than a keyboard and mouse, I wouldn't really even call them gamers. They're the type of player that would get royally pwned (<-Firefox says that's spelled wrong. What do they know?) at 95% of the games I play. Though I guess it's not their fault that the controls are so horribly imprecise, limited, and don't help you improve your reflexes or aim much.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to also get frustrated that I couldn't play
any of the windows games on my Linux box and that
none (or nearly none) of the game makers would port
their games to Linux. It took me a long time to realize
what the problem was:

Simply put, the game makers can't keep up with the pace
of Linux. Let me try to explain what I mean. Take a look
for example at how many Linux distros there are out there:
something like 300 now or so based on distrowatch.org.

And some of those distros run on different hardware platforms
than just x86.

On top of that, not every Linux distro has the same versions
of the same libraries at the same time with the same patches
and compilation options.

There is no way that the proprietary software makers can
keep up. That's why Oracle only supports RedHat Linux and
only for certain versions. This is why Adobe's effort to
provide 1 flash plugin (version 9) for _all_ Linux distros
by doing some funky static compiling is at best misguided
and at worst massively brain damaged and stupid because it
won't work for any platform except for x86.

It's no wonder that the game makers prefer writing to windows:
It's not just that windows has 90% market share -- what kind of
profit oriented businessman would say: I could make 10% more
profit with a little bit more work --- but screw that, 90% is
good enough at most! And that's assuming they _could_ get massive
penetration when realistically all they could expect is at most
10% of the windows population.

The genius of Microsoft Windows is _not_ that it's ubiquitous.
The genius of Microsoft Windows is that it's stably obsolete ---
it's glacial in its pace of development. Five freakin' years of
the _same_ libraries! My God, that's hog heaven for proprietary
software makers!

Contrast that with the Linux world, where 6 months is a lifetime.
If you're software is older than 6 months, it's already obsolete
and might as well be dead. The only kind of software that could
survive that kind of testosterone laced Darwinian death-to-the-weak
Jungle is open sourced software, and only in the case that the
Linux distros maintain the downstreams versions of the software
package to guarantee it will work. So, it's no surprise to see
that the only (popular) games that run on Linux natively are
open source games: Tuxracer, frozen bubbles, gcompris, bzflag,
cube, nethack and all its variants, blob wars, etc.

The only counterexamples that come to my mind are:
Enemy Territory. Are there any others?

--Johnny doesn't use proprietary software if he can help it.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[CastrTroy]

Why can't they support keyboards and mice on consoles? it would be trivial to make a device that allowed you to plug in PS/2 or USB keyboards and mice into a console. With so many people asking for this, especially for FPS games, why haven't they gotten around to supporting this?

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[nelsonal]

I'd take your point one step further and say it's ubiquitous because it's very stable. MS learned long ago that they way to succeed in creating an operating system is do everything you can to ensure that developers find your system the easiest way to access the marketplace. If they are responsible for an innovation in this business it was that. Whenever there was a threat to their control over the developer base they attacked generally viciously.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Xymor]

If so, then whould a "Virtual Game Machine", something like Java or .Net VM, build upon some sort of open standards and specifications for CPU, Memory and GPU interface, an Open "Closed" sandbox exclusively to run games. Developers would just need to develop considering the standards, that would common for all implementations, and could even evolve as fast as linux(on pace with hardware evolution). Am I talking bs here or is the Free community just not that organized?

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Mr. Jaggers]

Right on the point. I'd mod up if I could, and agree on all points. Add to the list of playable games anything that Icculus is spending 150% of his time developing/porting/maintaining.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[jZnat]

I know you can plug a USB keyboard into the Xbox 360 and use it for the new Phantasy Star Online game (back when they had the beta test a couple weeks ago). It probably works for other things, but you can't use it as a controller for some reason. :(

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[supabeast!]

Why can't they support keyboards and mice on consoles?

Some games do. But most don't because most console gamers don't want to play with a keyboard/mouse combo in the first place. Something about trying to use a keyboard/mouse while sitting on the couch twenty feet from the console/TV.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[menkhaura]

The only counterexamples that come to my mind are:
Enemy Territory. Are there any others?

Enemy Territory is free (beer), but there are other examples. The best of those are Doom 3 (and its expansion, Resurection of Evil) and Quake 4. Bioware did a great job porting Neverwinter Nights for Linux as well but, unfortunately, Neverwinter Nights 2, which is made by another company and AFAIK due to be launched today won't run on Linux. Unreal-based games are also very portable (see UT and America's Army 2.5 and earlier).

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[hey!]

So, why not just support a Knoppix type DVD? Unlike productivity applications, you don't need IPC between a game and the other stuff running on the machine.

This could mean a single target could support Linux, Windows and Mac users, provided you could get your disro to boot. Any game related state could be saved to a small USB flash drive.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Al Dimond]

We see this type of comment all the time. A few problems:

1. Drivers. You have to include drivers for all the hardware that your game needs (graphics, sound, network, input devices), including future devices in these categories. I've heard some interesting ideas for ways around this. They're interesting, but lead to a complicated and lengthy install process. You need to get your OS to boot on everyone's crazy hardware configurations.

2. Networking and patching. If you're making a network enabled game you're asking people to put their computers on a network (likely even the Internet) with an OS that can't be updated without spinning another DVD. There will be security holes found in the OS. Lots of people running the exact same unpatched OS version will be playing these games. Just because the OS installation on the CD/DVD can't be modified, it leaves open an attack vector to data on the hard drive. Game manufacturers like the ability to easily patch their games for bugs, anti-hacking techniques, and other random things. Argue all you want that they should get it right the first time, they wouldn't want to give that up.

3. Rebooting. People don't like rebooting. It takes a long time. They have to disconnect from IM programs, they have to turn off their music players, etc. They lose their software stack and configuration info (think configurable input devices that require userland apps for configuration). Configuration that would be shared between multiple games must be redone for every game you buy. It's more difficult for people to minimize the game and post the video of their latest frag to their website.

4. Licensing. What OS would game developers use for this? Windows or some similar variant. The driver support and developer tools are there for Windows, and most PCs sold today have undergone QA on Windows. Paying the licensing costs would drive up the price of the game.

And what is gained? The day-to-day experience (that is, the experience outside of patching and installation) for Linux/Mac users would be the same as now: a reboot into an OS they use mostly for gaming; in fact, since a real Windows installation would be more useful than the game OS the experience would really be slightly worse. The day-to-day experience for Windows users would be much worse: two reboots to go from regular use to game and back. Reboots between different games.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[person132]

Aim? Aim with what? Some sort of REAL gun? I don't see how a mouse helps you any more than a joystick.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The only counterexamples that come to my mind are:
Enemy Territory. Are there any others?"

There's Second Life, which I play quite often. It's proprietary, but the client and basic account are free. And despite the Linux client still considered alpha, it's nearing parity with the Windows client(movie support is still missing, but there are workarounds). Plus there's an in-world LUG with the current Linux client developer as a member.

http://www.secondlife.com/

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Caesar Tjalbo]

I've just finished writing Tic-Tac-Toe in Python for KDE and it's running smooooth. I'm a bit indecisive about GPLv2 or GPLv3 but expect Kic-Kac-Koe to reach the shelves well before christmas.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[rmdir -r *]

The only counterexamples that come to my mind are:
Enemy Territory.

And it's a good one. Your argument is that the libraries on Linux aren't stable enough to distribute binary programs long-term. I would like to point out that the nearly four-year old Enemy Territory still installs and runs fine on Edgy Eft, a Linux distribution hot off the compiler, a Linux distribution not even a week old. So while there has been alot of change, there hasn't been that much.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Simply put, the game makers can't keep up with the pace of Linux."

Flat out wrong! You even said it yourself. "something like 300 [linux distros] now or so based on distrowatch.org" Linux is way too fragmented. For game makers it is a no win situation. If they try to support every linux distro then they will loose money in support compared to copies sold. If they only support 1 or 2 then you get an out cry from the other user bases saying "why not us". Another problem stems from poor video drivers.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[drsquare]

Better games? Maybe, unless you prefer RTS or MMORPG
Better controls? I know purists that would barf at the tought of playing FPS games with anything other than a keyboard/mouse combo

MMORPGs are mindless timesinks, and Goldeneye is the most fun FPS I've ever played. But since when do purists care about fun?

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Rhone]

On top of that, not every Linux distro has the same versions
of the same libraries at the same time with the same patches
and compilation options.

It really isn't as much of a problem as you make it sound. The open source software you have with your distro tends to be dynamically linked--meaning, it is compiled against certain versions of certain libraries, and you need to have those libraries installed for it to function properly. If you have a different version of the library than the one it was compiled against, you can run into some problems (depending on how much has changed between versions).

However, the commercial games I've seen released for Linux have been statically compiled. That means the functions they use from various libraries are built into the game's executable; therefore, whether you have those libraries installed, or which versions of them you have, does not matter.

And that's why I can still pop in one of my old Loki games that I got back when I was using Mandrake 6.something and it will run fine in my up-to-date Gentoo system. That's why, in addition to those Loki games, I've been able to play the Linux versions of Neverwinter Nights and Uplink across several different distros, and countless updates of my Gentoo system, without any problems.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Nanpa]

It could be said Goldeneye is a mindless timesink that's aged horribly.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Simply put, the game makers can't keep up with the pace
of Linux. Let me try to explain what I mean. Take a look
for example at how many Linux distros there are out there:
something like 300 now or so based on distrowatch.org.

Back in the day I bought Quake III for Linux. It came with a cut-down SuSE CD in the box, just enough to run the game if you didn't have Linux already, or if the distro you had was incompatible.

This is what's wonderful about Linux. How many games come with a copy of Windows in the box?

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[MiKom]

As you said, Enemy Territory is exception. So why not create all games for Linux like Enemy Territory? ID software shows that it is possible to create games that are independent of distribution and libraries. They just bundle their own versions of libraries (not many needed). If someone wants to have bleeding-edge version of library he can just copy it to the game folder.
It would be enough if game developers created versions only for popular distros like Ubuntu or SUSE because guys from e.g. Gentoo know how to tailor the game to fit their distro. I think that bigger problem with linux gaming is DirectX. As everybody know it runs only on Windows. Many developing studios have programmers only knowing DirectX. If they started using OpenGL that is portable the problem with Linux gaming would be much easier to solve. But when looking on Wine it seems to get more and more promising. Their implementation of DirectX on top of OpenGL seems to gain momentum. They have managed to run e.g. Oblivion (with some glitches, but It's new and demanding game) and they continue active development.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[JensenDied]

I believe we call this technique a "console game" where all hardware is the same (minus mod chip and variable size hard drives)

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[orasio]

But there are great FPS titles for Linux. That must be the genre with the most support in Linux.
If you are lucky enough to have your favorite FPS games ported to Linux, like for example ID games, then the combination of the Linux machine, plus a console, that is more easily played on the living room, and with friends, could be a killer one.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

BINGO! I'm 100% agree with you

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[bentcd]

Why can't they support keyboards and mice on consoles?
I expect it¦'s a game design issue. Since console controllers typically don't give as accurate aiming as a mouse does, the games are designed with this in mind. You might have some level of auto-aim, or the enemies may move more sluggishly to compensate, etc.
Since so few people would be expected to want to use keyboard&mouse on a console, it's probably just not worth the effort to design the game to cater for both types of control system.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Epsilon Plus]

Second Life isn't so much a game as it is an economic/artistic experiment. I know - I've got an account there and I usually log in once a week, if only to play with prims for some sort of idea. SL is great but it's now what comes to mind when I think "game".

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[meiao]

There is Savage, which I ran better on Linux than on Windows (and so, deleted my windows version).
It is free (as in beer) and fun (for a while at least).

There are also a bunch of shooters (noiz2sa and rrootage, and others from the same programmer) which are very nice too.

There are emulators for linux (mame, vba, psx...)

Also I have made a psx controller adapter to my parallel port, which works out of the box, and in windows I had to get drivers, not signed by MS.

So I don't think Linux is that much behind in games, unless you only want to run the latest blockbuster.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Phoenix00017]

The difference is that mouse is motion-input while a joystick is purely vector based (a direction and a magnitude - i.e. how hard you're pushing it). With a joystick you have a firm bound on how fast you can move your gun. Or, if you've turned your sensitivity way up, you'll often have more trouble with fine aiming. A mouse is much closer simulation of aiming an actual gun, and is the best way to do it outside of a lightgun (or Wiimote).

That's not to say that the dual-joystick configuration for PS2 or XBOX doesn't work for aiming. But you take the top Quake players (using keyboard/mouse) out there and match them up against the top Halo players (using XBOX controllers), and I guarantee you Quake'll win.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[shrykk]

[As regards games on Knoppix-style live CDs] We see this type of comment all the time. A few problems:[1. Drivers, 2. Networking and Patching, 3. Rebooting, 4. Licensing]

To be fair, a lot of your listed problems are already solved: for example, a Knoppix live CD alreay has excellent hardware detection and loads of drivers included. The networking of a game-specific version of an OS could be extremely stripped down (no extra programs listening on various ports). And if the game developers developed for Linux, they could hack at the OS all they wanted. (The OS is modifiable and GPL'ed; the game is a closed-source userland program; the live CD is a simple aggregation and hence the game needn't be open-sourced).

I'm not saying this is necessarily the best idea. But if you could stick the same CD into a PC or a Mac and get the same game running (on Linux from the CD) then there would be no need to port games, hence each game could be developed for a single platform with potentially fewer bugs.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Al Dimond]

A knoppix CD has good hardware detection and lots of drivers installed for the devices it supports. I'm sure it gets most of the common ones, but I'm just as sure there's a lot it misses. Knoppix can't legally distribute Nvidia's or ATI's drivers, for example, so the game companies would have to work out a deal for them. There are also devices that might come out in the future. The user, in the general case, would have to burn their own game CD upon installation to get all their drivers. Users would balk at this because it's complicated and time-consuming, game companies would balk because it would complicate copy-protection. And what about the program that aggregates the drivers for the LiveCD? Where does it run? On the normal OS? So you're right back to square one.

I still think the vulnerability issue is a problem. A vulnerability in Linux firewall code or in the services run by the game could leave the system open. To patch it you'd need to burn the CD over again (which takes two reboots). Think about the user experience for this: user reboots, sticks in CD for Game OS. Game OS says, "I need updates!" User reboots back to normal OS, runs update utility, burns CD, reboots onto new CD, plays game. Three reboots vs. the current status-quo, which is "wait a few minutes for patch to download, then go on playing".

The diversity of PC and Mactel systems is just too much; PC operating systems have spent a lot of effort providing an abstraction between hardware and software, and to replace the OS the user already has working with a new one that has to support all that diversity would be a nightmare. None of the problems I listed have been solved well enough for a game designed to work this way to work nearly as well a game distributed just as a single-platform binary for the user's existing OS. It's not just that it's not the best idea. It's that it's a complete waste of time trying to turn PCs into consoles.

Re:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Xentalion]

Just about ever game id software ever made, such as Quake 3, Quake 4, Doom 3, ect? Also, you're missing Nexuiz, Cube, UFO, and xbill!

Uh

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should you continually not have the games you want to play? Why settle for half-assed solutions that might or might not run the games you crave so desperately?

Because I run Linux as my primary OS and shutting down everything I'm running and rebooting to Windows just to play a game is a PITA?

I still play Quake3 and UT2004 in Linux. Of course you kids with your boring newfangled "realistic" games probably can't play the latest Boringfield 3000 suckage, but whatever.

Re:Uh

[erik umenhofer]

the whole point is not "whatever". the point is people want to play games that aren't 2-3 years old. I like having new games around and playing on any *nix system was a chore.

Are you stating that all linux users should be happy with their old games? I find it very worth while to have windows installed.

Re:Uh

[tibike77]

"Are you stating that all linux users should be happy with their old games?"

YES. Name one non-console, non-MMO game that came out in the past, say 2-3 years, that is BOTH worth playing AND a PITA to run on Linux.

Re:Uh

[damiangerous]

All of them.

Re:Uh

[MrHanky]

Oblivion and GTA exist for consoles, but not for consoles that I've got. On the other hand, I can play them in Windows. Cedega doesn't work with my Radeon 9800.

Re:Uh

[tibike77]

"All of them".

Non-console (versions) ? Fail check on 50+%
Non-MMO ? Fail check on ??%
Worth playing ? Fail check on 90+%
PITA to run on LInux ? Fail check on ??%

Try again.

Re:Uh

[michaelsimms]

You have a linux only system. A game is released for Linux.

The game is NEW FOR LINUX

So what if it was on windows 2 years ago, it is new to Linux, new to the player.

The fact is that newer is not always better, in fact a whole lot of games are just utter rubbish these days. The games that we publish are not always the latest, but before you criticise them, try playing some of them, they are all excellent games and fun to play.

Re:Uh

[umkhhh]

what age has to do with anything? I regularely get my wife angry while playing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baduk a game that is more than 3.5ky old. Incidentaly clients for connecting with http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/ for instance, run on linux as well as on windows boxes. But that is me and my way of playing.

Re:Uh

[Anonymous Coward]

Older doesn't mean good either.

There's the chance you'll want to play with your friends. There's the chance not all of your friends run Linux, and they may have played and grown tired of the older (though not necessarily good) game you just bought.

Re:Uh

[joeljkp]

I agree with your point, but let's not forget Darwinia, DEFCON, Doom 3, Quake 4, and the upcoming UT2007 and Savage 2.

There's a few big producers out there, and they deserve our support.

Re:Uh

[ClosedSource]

I haven't been a big game player for years (and years and years), but if I can remember back that far, playing the newest games was a big part of the fun and excitement. Being a fan isn't about logic, it's about emotion. I could port my ancient Atari 2600 game to Linux and it would be NEW FOR LINUX, but nobody would care.

Re:Uh

[comrade k]

"worth playing" is in the eye of the beholder, but i'll bite.

For me:

• Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War & expansions
• Battlefield 2
• Battlefield 2142
• Sword of the Stars
• Sid Meier's Railroads

Many, if not all, are a PITA to get running under Linux.

Re:Uh

[damiangerous]

The point is that your "question" was just your opinion poorly disguised. By whose criteria is a game "worth playing"? The only opinion that matters there is the person who wants to play the game. By whose criteria is a game a PITA to run on Linux? What percentage of people having how much trouble? Check the Cedega forums and you'll see that a significant number of people have trouble even with "supported" games.

Because....

[drdanny_orig]

Why bother to torture yourself with the headaches presented by Linux gaming? Why should you continually not have the games you want to play? Why settle for half-assed solutions that might or might not run the games you crave so desperately?

Because if not, the terrorists will have won!

Re:Because....

[Frumious Wombat]

Because if you don't torture yourself, you'll have to make an appointment with the government, and they're terribly behind schedule these days. So, in order to have the job completed in a timely manner, we're outsourcing non-essential services, and the duty of torturing yourself has fallen to you.

Non-Karma Whoring Article on One Page

[Anonymous Coward]

Why Gaming Sucks On Linux
By Jim Lynch

Despite last week's article about running World of Warcraft on Linux with CodeWeavers' CrossOver, I can't help but feel a sense of despair when I think of gaming under Linux. It seems that over the last few years, with a few exceptions, things have gotten worse rather than better. Frankly, I've had it with gaming under Linux. It's not worth the time or the effort.

The Tragedy of Loki
You might remember that a while back a company named Loki Games tried to make a business out of porting Windows games to Linux. Loki had an ambitious idea and did deliver some good games for Linux. But could it pull it off? Could Loki show that there was a real market for games under Linux?

Well Loki sure did have some significant achievements. Here's a list of the games that Loki released:

Civilization: Call to Power
Descent 3
Deus Ex
Heavy Gear 2
Heavy Metal: FAKK@
Heretic 2
Heroes of Might and Magic 3
Kohan: Immortals Sovereigns
MindRover
Myth 2: Soulblighter
Postal Plus
Railroad Tycoon 2
Rune
Sid Meier's Alpha Centaur
Simcity 3000 Unlimited
Soldier of Fortune
Tribes 2
Unreal Tournament

As you can see, Loki offered a good selection of games (yes the games listed are old, but Loki has been out of business since early in 2002, so it's understandable that its product list is dated). And some of those games--back in their day--were considered top of the line and were wanted by lots of Linux gamers.

Alas, Loki was never able to make the numbers work and ultimately went out of business as a result. For Linux gamers, the death of Loki was a true tragedy. After that, who would want to ever bother making Linux versions of the latest and greatest games? As it turned out . . . nobody. And nobody will probably bother again . . . ever.

So where does the death of Loki leave us?

CrossOver Linux: The Few, the Proud...

As I noted in last week's review of CrossOver Linux, that program did a very nice job getting World of Warcraft to install and play under Linux. It ran well, and I'd recommend it to any desperate Linux player who wants to try World of Warcraft, right now CrossOver Linux is simply the best way to play World of Warcraft under Linux, period.
WOW and KDE

TransGaming: A Beautiful Promise...and a Bitter Disappointment

Now I can hear some of you immediately beginning to think "But wait: What about TransGaming's Cedega, Jim? Isn't that the solution for Linux gamers?" Well my own recent experience playing with TransGaming has left a bad taste in my mouth. So bad that I decided to can a review I was writing of the product, as I felt it simply wasn't worth spending any more time on. While I was able to get Call of Duty to run, I was unable to get World of Warcraft and some other games even to install, let alone actually run.

The fact that World of Warcraft gave me an error message and then refused to accept the second install CD just irritated the hell out of me. WoW has been out for ages now, it's not a new game. What is the point of TransGaming if it can't easily and quickly install something as common as WoW? CrossOver Linux did a fine job of handling WoW, so there is no excuse for TransGaming's Cedega product not to also handle it with ease and comfort.

I was also dissatisfied with the installation of Cedega itself. Installing it under a regular distribution was an irritating headache. Fortunately I had a copy of Mandriva 2007 with Cedega bundled. Even then though, installation of certain games didn't work properly.

TransGaming's Cedega download page itself is a mess. It should more easily guide customers to the proper version of Cedega for their distribution. Right now it's a disorganized list of files, and I think it should be cleaned up.

In general TransGaming needs to start focusing on the quality of experience that Linux gamers get from their products and not on mass quantity of games. Make the Cedega product easy to install, configure and us

Re:Non-Karma Whoring Article on One Page

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worth noting that Loki did not go under because of a lack of demand or an inability to "make the numbers work." Loki went under because of white collar fraud by the owner. The company was gutted, intentionally, with malice aforethought. It was not meant to be operated successfully for an indefinite amount of time.

Scuttlebutt from GDC 2002. The requisite grain of salt is perhaps useful, but I've no reason to believe otherwise.

Re:Non-Karma Whoring Article on One Page

[bitserf]

Thanks for reminding me I had a recurring payment set up to go to these guys... Cancelled. Their cancellation process is a royal PITA as well (there's a surprise).

I never could get anything working under Cedega without major pain, not worth it.

Re:Non-Karma Whoring Article on One Page

[_Sprocket_]

Meanwhile... I've been playing WoW under Cedega rather happily from day 1 (but not without some issues).

I would like to note an interesting occurance. Last Friday, Blizzard did something that caused all Cedega users to crash. Nobody has really come up with the story on what it was. But it didn't seem to involve a client update. And it seemed to be universal to all Cedega users. This occured late Friday night.

Others noted that they were able to get Wine to run WoW. I updated my copy (Debian Unstable), tweaked my WoW settings to force OpenGL, and away I went. I was rather suprised. Wine handles WoW fairly nicely. But it wasn't as fast as Cedega. And there were times when I ran in to glaring video artifacts (I understand there's a WoW-specific patch out there that'll fix this). I was very tempted to cancel my Cedega subscription.

Within 24hrs, Transgaming had an update for Cedega to fix the WoW issue. That's late Saturday night. Not bad. I'm keeping my subscription for now.

Re:Non-Karma Whoring Article on One Page

[orasio]

Loki went under, because he lost his mask.

Crap

[ahsile]

Just wanted to note this article is a steaming pile of crap.

Re:Crap

[Pharmboy]

Yup. More ads than paragraphs, and they managed to stretch no content over a few pages.

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

yet absolutely true.

Re:Crap

[Grey Ninja]

I agree. It neglected to mention actual native Linux games, such as DEFCON, or these. It focused almost solely on running Windows games on Linux. But it didn't even do a good job of that. It focused on saying how much Cedega sucked (it does), and how it's possible to run WoW on crossover. It did NOT seem to mention Wine, and it didn't seem to notice that MOST older games run just fine in Wine.

I do actually dual boot on my main gaming box. But I don't boot into Windows all that often, you might be surprised to learn. I only really boot into Windows for Civ 4, and Battlefield 2/2142. That's about it. In Linux, I run Starcraft, Warcraft, Homeworld, Tropico, Half-Life, Half-Life 2, and many others. No, it's not native. But it does work. And it's nowhere near as sorry a state of affairs as a Mac. And we DO have SOME native games. (not many, but some). Saying that you NEED a dual boot system is just nonsense. I do dual boot as there's some games I just have to have. But I think for the average person, Linux might do the job just fine if you are willing to miss out on some things.

Re:Crap

[ahsile]

There's other games out there for linux, such as NWN, UT 2004, Quake 3/4. They all have native linux ports. I have purchased them BECAUSE they have native linux ports.

Re:Crap

[Ford Prefect]

It neglected to mention actual native Linux games, such as DEFCON

Has the Linux version of DEFCON actually been finished and released yet?

(Yes, I'm still waiting for the Mac release - so I can take proper advantage of the 'office' mode... ;-) )

Re:Crap

[ErroneousBee]

And we DO have SOME native games. (not many, but some).

I beleive this is starting to change, and to the detriment of the games producers.

Looking out there, there are quite a few FOSS games under development, and they also seem to fill each niche:

Vegastrike : Space sim
Wesnoth: Turn based strategy
Danger from the Deep: submarine sim
Racer: Car sim
etc.

I guess that sooner or later, all these projects will mature to the point they start displacing customers at the cheaper end of the games market, and big commercial games will be forced to either innovate, or find other revenue streams.

Re:Crap

[XxtraLarGe]

I only really boot into Windows for Civ 4... I run Starcraft, Warcraft, Homeworld, Tropico... and many others. No, it's not native. But it does work. And it's nowhere near as sorry a state of affairs as a Mac. And we DO have SOME native games.

That's funny. I can run Civ IV, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Homeworld, Tropico natively on my Mac. So how is Mac gaming in worse shape than Linux gaming???

Re:Crap

[mahdi13]

Don't forget that the up coming Enemy Territory: Quake Wars is aiming to have a Linux client port in the retail box, if they miss the deadline it will be available for download later.

It's not a very old game either, in fact it's not even out yet ;-)

Re:Crap

[mobby_6kl]

>So how is Mac gaming in worse shape than Linux gaming???

Cripple Fight!

Re:Crap

[despisethesun]

Just out of curiosity, are you using Cedega or something else to run those games? Any luck with Prey or Farcry?

Re:Crap

[mrsbrisby]

It's bad when "crap" is informative.

``My internet cock is _this_ big!''

``Well _MY_ internet cock runs linux! omg!''

Its terrible.

I like playing games, but nobody makes games I want to play. Does the author really mean to suggest I should be playing games I'm not interested in?

And what else could Loki expect by picking a very small percentage of a very small percentage? Did they really think they could do better than the Dreamcast? I mean, Sega's Saturn numbers were larger than Linuxs' at the time. Isn't this really just a big no-duh?

Here's an idea: If you want to buy the game, buy the game. If you want to justify the 2,000$ you spent on your ``eff-pee-ess'' by buying crappy games, all you're really doing is perpetuating this myth that "gamers" have small penises and bad hygene.

Meanwhile, at least somebody is paying attention to the fact that the "gaming population" is pitifully and unmarketably small, and that while many of them actually like to play games, the more vocal jackasses with their so called "culture" makes them the target market of only the most brain-damaged.

Re:Crap

[advocate_one]

I run Harpoon Classic using wine and Harpoon 2 using dosbox... both run fine. I'm slightly biased, I was playing Harpoon right from day one as a wargame with miniatures. As far as I'm concerned, those games are classics. The only way they can be improved is to have online opponents... but that causes hassles with accelerated time... there's no way I'd really want to fight a trans-atlantic convoy battle in 1 to 1 time for the entire crossing...

Mind you, an AI that learns and can be updated from the web would be great. If there's one thing I hate it's AI that effectively cheats by being told where you are and knows what your objectives are and the routes you've set.

Re:Crap

[Grey Ninja]

Just regular Wine. I did purchase a Cedega subscription for a few months. But the software is truly terrible. It's usually not as good as Wine, and I had an absolutely horrid experience even trying to get officially supported games to run. (Pirates in particular) I wouldn't recommend purchasing the software. It's a waste of money IMO.

As far as Prey and Farcry, they really aren't my style. I do own a copy of Farcry (I got it for free), but I've never tried it under Linux. It would appear that the wine appdb is down at the moment. But a quick googling reveals that Farcry is supported by Cedega, which means it probably works to some degree in Wine, and Prey works perfectly. (Unsurprising, as it's based on Doom 3). So I'm tentatively prepared to say "yes". They run in Linux.

Re:Crap

[Grey Ninja]

I made that comment because of the lack of a fully working Wine on Macs. Your native games tend to be the ones that work the best in Wine or Cedega, but you pay a high premium for the Mac version, rather than the Windows version that's usually cheaper. That is changing now that Apple is adopting x86, but it's still nowhere near the compatibility of Linux.

I didn't originally mention it, because I thought it went without saying, but Linux also has Doom 3 and Unreal Tournament. Cedega also supports Civ 4, but I hate the program, so I didn't mention that either. So no, I can run all those games you listed in Linux. I just think that the enhanced functionality of Wine in Linux makes it a better gaming platform.

Re:Crap

[Grey Ninja]

They both work.

Far Cry. (Requires some fiddling)
Prey. (Might have some sound issues)

Re:Crap

[drzhivago]

That's a lot of wishful thinking you've got there. 4 games that no one has heard of, that have no marketing muscle or names behind, are going to supplant EA or Ubisoft or whatever?

They may end up being decent games, but please don't be delusional into thinking they'll change anything in the retail space.

There have been "alternative" sources for indie games. Not counting just independent publishers going a shareware route, there are (were?) things like GarageGames where smaller teams were selling relatively quality but small games. The shareware developers eventually became part and parcel with the major retail companies. GarageGames hasn't done anything of note, even if it was a novel idea.

Being able to cause any kind of change means that the games themselves have to be absolutely spectacular. They have to be so good to point where word of mouth drives thousands of downloads a day. Otherwise they'll just end up at best in a small niche and really won't change anything.

Re:Crap

[Grey Ninja]

Not yet, no. But it's on its way, and I felt justified including it in my list of games, given the quality of the Uplink and Darwinia ports. Besides, it works fine in Wine on single-player mode. (Multiplayer mode doesn't work, but I'm not overly concerned, as the Linux binaries will be here before long).

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

And what else could Loki expect

  What they could expect was to make more money in sales than it cost to port the games. They did that just fine -- Loki didn't fail because of a lack of sales, Loki failed because the owner and his wife were treating the company's finances as their personal ATM and just shuffling the numbers afterwards.

Re:Crap

[DuckDodgers]

Actually, Wesnoth is developed for Windows, Linux, and Mac simultaneously. It's also a flat out, no joke damn good turn based strategy game.

I can't speak for other games he mentioned, because I only play strategy games.

Re:Crap

[ErroneousBee]

4 games that no one has heard of, that have no marketing muscle or names behind, are going to supplant EA or Ubisoft or whatever?

Just like some browser no-one has ever heard of is going to supplant IE?

Or some tinpot company from Seattle will never be able to take on IBM?

There have been "alternative" sources for indie games. Not counting just independent publishers going a shareware route, there are (were?) things like GarageGames where smaller teams were selling relatively quality but small games.

Shareware games have already removed the market for card games, platformers and side-scrollers.

In time, FOSS liscencing will mean the better 3D engines will get continual development, and eventually grow to rival the commercial versions, then only the big commercial games (WoW, Halo, etc) will survive, and the also-rans will be supplanted by these FOSS based games. Alot of the maps for NWN, Unreal Tournament and other FPS games are already community developed, so it is not a huge leap to have the engine supplied by a community too.

Not surprised

[schmidtjas]

This is why noone I know will ever switch to Linux completely. I've tried, but I always end up dual booting. I'd rather have games that just work than having to jump through endless hoops. The main problem is there is very little motivation for gaming companies to change this market-wise.

Re:Not surprised

[mahdi13]

That's what most people get Xbox's and Playstations for...

Re:Not surprised

[Jane Q. Public]

Considering that MS has started cutting off access to XBox users remotely for (according to Microsoft) "modding" their boxes, I will stay well clear, thank you very much. We have had more than enough experience with "Big Brother" lately in the capitol... we can do without another one in Redmond. Besides, why should I pay hundreds of dollars for a gaming console when my computer is capable of doing exactly the same things, provided I have a decent video card?

Re:Not surprised

[erroneus]

I think you've overstated things just a tad.

I do a "little" gaming under Linux. I have played with Unreal Gold, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3 and America's Army a bit just to pass the time of day. But beyond that, I don't really play games that much in the first place. But I don't use Windows except at work and even then I use my linux loaded laptop more than the Windows machine. So in effect, I have switched to Linux completely, and if you feel that my switch isn't "complete" because I need to use it at work, then you're still wrong because it has nothing to do with gaming.

But for any sit-down and play games for hours (which I haven't done in a *very* very long time) I use a game console. Forget about using an expensive computing machine for gaming... that's what game machines are for.

Re:Not surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

PS3 will run yellowdog linux..

seems like a good platform to make games on eh?

today is halloween, and today we like all things evil.. sony gets love today.. tomorrow? different story.

Re:Not surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

Majority of people don't purchase an Xbox to open it up and put a chip in it. Also, I find it very understandable that MS will cut off access to Xbox Live if someone has a modified Xbox. They aren't saying that you can't use your Xbox for whatever you want in your home, they just don't want you to connect to their Xbox Live service if installing a chip is what you chose to do. Bringing this up as a "Big Brother" issue is absurd. With the amount of things a person can do with a chip in their Xbox, not even including pirating games, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be playing a game on Xbox Live against someone who has the freedom to modify any file within their game folders (maps, skins, or who knows what else).

Re:Not surprised

[abandonment]

This is something that very well may save linux gaming, if Sony ships Linux with the Ps3 like early reports mentioned.

It has all of the benchmarks of a perfect development environment:

1) unified hardware
2) unified operating system
3) potentially huge audience

everyone can say that this article is crap all they want, but actually developing games for linux is truly a nightmare. hundreds of OS's, thousands of mismatched libraries, configurations etc...

all for such a tiny percentage of the gaming audience. it's just not worth it.

however, if sony pulls the linux-on-ps3 thing off and doesn't cripple it like they did for the ps2, then it could be a very good thing for linux gaming

Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux FS?

[psyclone]

Dual booting is okay for games, but how about when you want to play music in the background? And all of your music is on your ext3, Reiser, or XFS file system? How is the read/write support from windows back to linux? I think there have been advances on read/writing NTFS from linux, but how about the other way around?

Not THAT bad

[Reapman]

Oh it's not that bad I don't think... yeah if your a gamer run Windows, but Linux is hardly the lost cause this summary makes it out to be. The only game I play right now that I need Windows for is FFXI. In Linux I play Civ4, WoW, UT'04 without problems (Civ4 does crash time to time, but it does in Windows too). I'm actually impressed with how far it's gotten over the years. Long way to go, but keep up the good work the guys at Wine and Cedega (yes I bought Cedega, and yes I got my moneys worth outa it in my opinion)

Re:Not THAT bad

[Anonymous Coward]

There are PS2 and XBox360 versions of FFXI. You don't NEED Windows to play it.

That said, if FFXI is the only reason you're keeping Windows, ditch it. It's one of the worst MMORPGs out there. It's not a good enough reason to be shackling yourself to Windows.

Re:Not THAT bad

[Reapman]

I own windows already. I did'nt buy windows to play FFXI. I'd have to buy an XBox 360, and right now only FFXI interests me. I did have it on PS2. Graphics stunk so bad I could'nt handle it. If I bought the 360, and an HD TV to get the quality of graphics I'm used to seeing in XI, then maybe. But that's a few grand away. I'll stick with my 2 year old PC, mmk-thanks.

I also use Windows for non gaming. Software development, some devices that wont run under Linux etc.

Let's not go into the "omg that game sucks just stop playing it" arguments. "Oh ok, some dude told me to stop playing FFXI because he says it's sucks, so I'll listen" Let me just leave it as this: I have fun in FFXI. The moment I dont have fun I will stop playing. Until then I'll keep playing. If you dont enjoy it, dont play it. If you do, do. Simple as that. Because you feel one way about the game has, amazingly, NO BEARING ON ME.

Hmmm...

[bad_fx]

that seems a fairly counter-productive suggestion. Better not to buy windows and just buy the games that actually support linux out of the box. That's the only way to improve gaming on linux - get the games publishers to actually support linux from the start. Doom3, quake4, neverwinter nights... There are a few already.

*sigh* Now I just wish I could take my own advice.

Re:Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

so true. gaming sucks on linux precisely because so many people do what this article is suggesting

Re:Hmmm...

[Control Group]

Which is a great suggestion if your goal is to improve gaming on Linux.

It's not so great a suggestion if your goal is to play games.

Re:Hmmm...

[bad_fx]

[blockquote]Which is a great suggestion if your goal is to improve gaming on Linux.

It's not so great a suggestion if your goal is to play games.[/blockquote]

Why do you seem to think these 2 things are mutually exclusive? My goal is to play games... on linux. Without having to reboot every time I want to and paying the microsoft tax just so I can (as well as paying the games companies... ) Long term, improving gaming on linux will help my primary goal of playing games...

Re:Hmmm...

[Control Group]

Mutually exclusive is too strong a term. It's more an order of priorities. If your greater priority is the games, you're out of luck with Linux. If your greater priority is Linux, then you should do what you suggest.

There just isn't any getting past the fact that Linux compatibility is a distant secondary concern for most major game developers - when it's a concern at all. The simple fact of the matter is that major titles are released for Windows first, and often only. 3rd-party work on Linux compatibility, of necessity, lags behind the game's availability on Windows.

So, clearly, if gaming is your priority, you're stuck with Windows (unless, through pure coincidence, every game you're interested in playing happens to also be among the small set of games that are available for Linux on a comparable time scale. This happy accident, however, is more the exception than the rule).

Why not do what us Mac users do

[Andy_R]

Buy a console if you want to play games. A Wii is going to be cheaper than a top of the range graphics card, it will be up-to-date for many more years. Unless you are a fps addict (read that a first-person-shooter or frames-per-second to taste) the games are probably better too.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[stoolpigeon]

i have a windows machine, but this is still what i did. it was cheaper, as you mention, and gaming on windows can be a hassle sometimes too. when i was younger i had time for that. but now the most precious commodity i have is time. when i can squeeze in playing some games, i just fire up my game cube and don't worry about what will work or what wont. i'll do the same with the wii.
 
when the kids have grown and gone, maybe i'll return to trying to keep up with pc games but that's at least 15 years off. who knows what will be the best platform by then.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[Ford Prefect]

Actually, this Mac user decided to installed Windows XP on his MacBook Pro, and discovered he had a completely serviceable Windows gaming machine hidden away in his work laptop.

Considering I switched to Mac laptops to escape the horrors of getting Linux to work on random PC laptop hardware anyway... ;-)

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[zoftie]

There are two worlds, PC and Console gaming. Two have distinct and very different crowds. PC gamers demand richness and complexity of the game. Console gamers rather deterred by complexity. Reason, is mouse&keyboard, that consolers will never have by default, which PC will have. And thus the rift. Wii's gravity stick or whatever you wanna callit, is step away from PC crowd. It is entertainment, in a different sense. Entertainments in karaokeish sense, then 'escapist' type where you go on complex adventures. WoW is one of many examples.

I agree though, that graphics rift won't be as bad as in years of PS2 and N64

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[calbanese]

when the kids have grown and gone, maybe i'll return to trying to keep up with pc games but that's at least 15 years off. who knows what will be the best platform by then.

By that time, Vista will almost be ready to ship, so just wait a few more months.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is console graphics are horrible compared to the computer, and to be honest, most console games are just boring. I have a console system but I use it only about once a month.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[DragonWriter]

Buy a console if you want to play games.

If you want to play the kind of games that are the focus of the console market, that's a good idea; if you are into the kind of games that include some of the best selling PC games (like the Civ series, The Sims series, etc.), buying a console does you little good because console versions tend to lag far behind PC releases if they ever occur at all. And, of course, the console versions often lack capabilities that are in the PC versions, particularly as regards customizability and access to third-party content.

Unless you are a fps addict (read that a first-person-shooter or frames-per-second to taste) the games are probably better too.

FPS (in either sense) is hardly the only arena in which consoles tend to lag behind PCs in quality.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[PygmySurfer]

PC gamers demand richness and complexity of the game. Console gamers rather deterred by complexity.

Actually, I think most console gamers buy consoles because they have the games they want to play, not because they're "deterred by complexity"

The Wii is definitely a step away from the PC crowd, and you might be able to say the Wii is aiming for users deterred by complexity, but I don't think that's true of consoles in general.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[stoolpigeon]

i'm holding out on linux being ready for the desktop :)

you gave me a good chuckle though- thanks.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[Mattintosh]

Actually, I see the Wiimote as being more of a step toward PC gaming. Why? Because it's a pointer. The keyboard is NOT the main difference between console and PC games. The mouse is. Console controllers have been steadily gaining more buttons for years now, some even arranged in number pads and other keyboard-like arrangements (like the Atari Jaguar). They've all been lacking a mouse, though. (Except for niche peripherals like the SNES mouse, which was used for a grand total of 2 or 3 games... and can you name any of them other than Mario Paint? Not likely. I think Yoshi's Cookie and Simcity 2000 used it.) Now the DS has a stylus and it has opened the system up to all sorts of games that couldn't otherwise be made on a console.

The Wiimote will do the same for home consoles. It's not just motion-sensitive, it's also position-sensitive (due to the "sensor bar"). That makes it a fully functional 3D pointing device. It can sense velocity/tilt on 3 axes as well as pointing position relative to the sensor bar, which can be used together to calculate "depth". 2D "x,y" positioning only requires the sensor bar. Now you can hit a button to bring up your menu, point to an item, and "poke" at it to select it (or hit a button), then go back to the action and press another button to use the item you just selected at any point you can see on the screen, and any depth you can see on the screen.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[Dun Malg]

Actually, I think most console gamers buy consoles because they have the games they want to play, not because they're "deterred by complexity"

Worth noting, however, that "the games they want to play" are largely reflex-based twitch-fests with linear or para-linear storylines (if they have a plot at all!). So yeah, I'd agree that they're not deterred by complexity. I would say that they're simply not interested in complexity. Sophisticated, thinky games just aren't produced for consoles like they are for the keyboard-and-mouse PC set. Even GTA:SA, the most sophisticated "open" style game they have, is still slaved to a para-linear format (locked areas) driven by largely reflex-based missions (shoot the jamaicans, now shoot the puerto rickies). Nothing so strategic as anything from the later Civilization franchise.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[Anonymous Coward]

Advance Wars is as sophisticated as Civ, if you can see past the presentation. And the king of twich-fests, UT2004's instagib mode, is so ridiculously fast that it playing it on a TV (using TV-out on a PC - TV's are limited to interlaced 60 Hz refresh rate, compared to clear 60+Hz on PC) is a noticable disadvantage. Which I'm not complaining about, I love turn-based strategy and a love twichy FPSes.
As for "open" style games Morrowind and Oblivion both sophisticated and highly open, and are available on both PC and console.

I game on PC and consoles - trust me, the split you think you see between them stylistically is not significant.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[Anonymous Coward]

Advance Wars is as sophisticated as Civ, if you can see past the presentation.

Holy shit, it absolutely is not. I enjoy Advance Wars on my DS, and I've been playing Civ since day one. To put them in the same league is mind numbingly stupid. The combat portion of Civ and the entire game of Advance Wars are about equivalent in complexity and sophistication. Then pile on all the other building and resource management of Civ. It's no contest, and no one who's played both could make that comparison with a straight face.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[iainl]

Stuff the price of the graphics card; most consoles cost less than the price of a Windows license.

If you're willing to count the cost of both a graphics card and a legit copy of Windows, you can probably afford an XBox 360, which has every single PC game I'd be interested in playing, and a fair bit besides.

Re:Why not do what us Mac users do

[cafard]

Unless you are a fps addict (read that a first-person-shooter or frames-per-second to taste) the games are probably better too.

Or a simulation games addict (flight sims, sub sims, etc), or a reflexion/strategy games addict (civ-style games, wargames). Could we please be done once and for all with this tired "games are better on consoles anyway" argument? It is true for some games, with sports games usually a good example, but consoles do *not* fit the bill for everything.

OpenGL

[aralin]

It is all about OpenGL vs DirectX. As long as developers will opt for DirectX, the games are not going to be portable to Mac OS X and Linux. And if the trend ever reverses, we might have a chance. Anyway, most people just buy a game console and are done with it. But there is a ray of hope in the fact that these consoles start to use Linux and OpenGL to run/make games. So theoretically...

Re:OpenGL

[rblum]

I sugest you actually try porting a game. Yes, OGL/DX is a major factor, but if you think the rest just needs to be recompiled, I suggest you think again.

* Sound on Linux is, well, "a debacle" comes to mind
* File I/O is different
* Input devices are handled differently
* Networking is ever so slightly different. (Go Winsock! :( )
* If you thought DX capability flags are a nightmare, you need to spend more time with OGL vendor extensions

And I'm still waiting for a console actually using OGL. Where'd you get that idea? (Yes, GC is close. But it's *not* OGL)

Re:OpenGL

[crush]

And, there are a very restricted number of video cards with good open/free drivers for them. (ATi cards with up to and including r300 have pretty good drivers (GL 1.0 is supported with the Mesa driver) and there are reports that the nouveau drivers included in FC6 are actually working now for some nVidia cards.

But in general, gaming sucks on Linux because the video card manufacturers have made it hard to get accelerated graphics working with the open standard, then on top of this is your very valid point about DirectX.

Re:OpenGL

[Anonymous Coward]

Sound on Linux is, well, "a debacle" comes to mind

Let the OS deal with it! Use a wraper like SDL or OpenAL, good distributions will have ALSA properly set up as a backend for them. It might also help with portability.

Re:OpenGL

[michaelsimms]

This is utter rubbish. Our company has plenty of experience porting from Direct3D to OpenGL.

It isnt just possible, it has happened - frequently.

Re:OpenGL

[Lehk228]

Intel has stepped up to the plate on that, they have open sourced their video drivers with full support of all features. granted Intel graphics isn't what most people think of when they think of gaming, but stable and functional drivers with a medeocre card is better than constant problems and crashes with a high end card and a binary blob as a device driver.

Re:OpenGL

[ad0gg]

Maybe open source guys should get off their behind and create a decent competitor to directx. Open GL is an ok solution, you have write extensions to do anything fancy and there's directx which has everything there for you.

Re:OpenGL

[crush]

Yes, I forgot about http://www.intellinuxgraphics.com/index.html but you're right, this is a very important move.

Re:OpenGL

[MSFanBoi2]

Do you guys sell any you know CURRENT games? I don't see much on your list that either hasn't been out for a long while, or is so obscure as to be non-existant.

Re:OpenGL

[ivan256]

Let's forget for a moment that OpenGL is just graphics, while directx handles audio, user input, etc...

The trend may be reversing itself shortly. DirectX 10 will be Vista only. The majority of PC gamers, however, will not have Vista for years. That means most game developers will continue to write for DirectX 9, or write games that support both 9 & 10 in the case where they want their game to run on Xbox. If DirectX 9 support from Microsoft is discontinued, the majority of game developers will find another API to use rather than abandon the XP platform (and as a result, the majority of their customers).

Re:OpenGL

[delire]

Rays of hope aside, this is precisely why supporting Transgaming will ensure a steady decline of interest in making games that run natively on non-Windows systems, or even porting them to non-Windows systems. The more popular Transgaming becomes, the less games we'll see made for, or ported to, our favourite $UNIX platform. The secondary fallout will be a reduction of developer interest in OpenGL itself.

Re:OpenGL

[Jesus_666]

* Networking is ever so slightly different. (Go away, Winsock! :( )

There, fixed it for you..

Re:OpenGL

[Svartalf]

Considering that most of the mainline games use OpenAL (because it's portable to more than Windows, including consoles...) in the first place...

Re:OpenGL

[Anonymous Coward]

Well lets see XP is 5 years old.
Typically takes 2-3 years to make a game.

So BY the time you ship your game you start today on vista there would be a decent market of vista boxen. Think MS is going to continue to ship/allow XP to be sold? Not for long.

Also this market segment tends to upgrade faster...

Re:OpenGL

[Svartalf]

Ahem... Have you ported a game? Do I know whom you are?

In reality, I know or know of MOST of the people professionally doing this very thing.

Direct3D to OpenGL's fun, but not impossible- and with OpenGL 2.0, most of the "fun" just goes away.
Sound? Most of the major players out there are using Miles, FMOD, or OpenAL- ALL OF WHICH ARE SUPPORTED UNDER LINUX. It's only when someone uses something "odd" that sound's a real problem.
File I/O is NOT different, paths might be, but you shouldn't be using that sort of thing in the first place. Data should be in a "My Documents" type place which has it's analog in Linux as well.
Networking... Heh... Only if you use DirectPlay. I know, I've written several compatibility layers to other networking layers. OpenPlay, Grapple, TNL, Quake3 Networking, and RakNet come immediately to mind- and in all cases, they're EASIER to use than DirectPlay. And more fun, they're cross-platform. If you use WinSock2, you're mostly using BSD Sockets in the first place so if you roll your own it's a short effort to port it.
OGL Vendor extensions? DO NOT USE THEM. Nobody in their right mind does anyhow- everyone uses the ARB or EXT extensions which is an easy thing to figure out.

What takes time is not the functionality. It's that people keep doing BAD coding practices, etc. and that takes time to undo. I really, really wish people would quit trotting out this tripe about it being "hard" to make Linux to Windows ports because of the things you describe.

Re:OpenGL

[ClamIAm]

* Sound on Linux is, well, "a debacle" comes to mind
* File I/O is different
* Input devices are handled differently
* Networking is ever so slightly different. (Go Winsock! :( )

I take it you've never heard of libraries like SDL or ClanLib.

As for OGL extensions, that sounds like a preference issue.

Re:OpenGL

[Svartalf]

Heh... You say this, but you've not a SINGLE clue on what it takes to get access to such things
as "the latest games".

Part of what destroyed Loki was they bit off more than they could chew, more than they could afford.
Each game published costs a given amount of money, typically anywhere from $10-50k for the privilege
to just simply see the code and port it. In some cases, even MORE than that (Just look at licensing
fees for the some of the hot engines out there- they can charge as much as a quarter mil...).

And then, it depends on the quality of the code as to how long it takes- not how difficult it is
to go from D3D to OGL and whatnot. Most of the problems end up being that someone took shortcuts
they shouldn't have or were so C++ happy they did something ill-advised that VC++ let them get away
with.

Michael's got some slick stuff in the pipeline- some relatively recent stuff, from what I understand,
with more on the way. Besides, all you Windows users are a fickle bunch, looking for that next fix
that never quite seems to come. You're not my market- yet... Soon enough though- one major change
of hardware in your future and you'll be begging Microsoft for another activation, and they may
insist on you paying for a new license... Heh... Either you'll pay up to Bill, you'll go console only,
go MacOS, or go Linux. In the case of the last three, your dollars makes an ecosystem that encourages
those very titles you crave for to happen for Linux.

Re:OpenGL

[Spikeles]

I sugest you actually try porting a game

I have. Have you?

* Sound on Linux is, well, "a debacle" comes to mind

OpenAL - UT2004/Q4 seems to work fine

* File I/O is different

Oh really? In what way? fopen() still opens files, and fwrite() still writes to files. I guess you mean really really large files that benefit from memory mapping.

* Input devices are handled differently

True, SDL goes a way to helping with that, but getting direct input is still a pain.

* Networking is ever so slightly different. (Go Winsock! :( )

True, but it's not hard at all to write a simple wrapper around it using the standard sock interface, there are some little quirks to do with closing connections properly ( have to shut down the sockets in the correct order ) but they are simple enough to get around.

* If you thought DX capability flags are a nightmare, you need to spend more time with OGL vendor extensions

Sad but true, but at least they are fully documented, and with Nvidia's new CG interface, you can do more things using shaders and less with extensions.

Others you missed that have problems.
Windowing - This is bloody annoying, SDL helps here though
Memory Management - using OS specific routines will get you into trouble! VirtualAlloc anyone?
Text files - Watch out for those cr/lf end lines!
Threading - *cringe*!!
Dynamic libraries - Ouch.. more headaches..

But.. now that has been said, all of those problems can be solved with a wrapper, in fact in a game i'm writing the only ones i havn't finished a wrapper for are Memory Management(just using new/delete/malloc) and sound(hasn't been implemented yet), the rest are happily wrapped up in interfaces(yes! even threads!) and the OS details are never exposed to the game system.

Re:OpenGL

[Nasarius]

It's called OGRE. There are few legitimate reasons for using DirectX or OpenGL directly.

Re:OpenGL

[hrrY]

As long as no significant progress is made in the direction of building a standard IO structure across ALL distros dealing *specifically* with games(i.e. DirectX) then this will continue and progressively get worse, this is bad for LINUX as a whole PERIOD, although I am only speaking in the context of home user experience... OGL is/was used for *many* different types of visual representation ranging from concept renders to algorithmic extrapolation of surface normals; I have YET to see direct X replicate this level of versatility, please don't get me started on flexibility...unless something is done about standardization in this area, efforts to make LINUX a viable gaming platform are for naught(Why can't there be a LINUXX?).
As long as the dev's keep getting their pockets lined with $M$ and MS continues to maintain exlusive relationships with the game dev's (Crysis anyone?)they effectively have the clout to append a WHOLE API to be tailored to 1 specific game...
At the end of the day, I just hope that "Crytek" will include OGL ext's as they did previously with "Far Cry".
The game dev's and the kernel dev's need to step up and build a unified platform.
The End

Re:OpenGL

[rblum]

Have I ported a game? No, but I did cross-platform development on XBox/GC/PS2/PC, and have seen it on 360/PS3/PC. So I have sort of a clue, I'd like to think. And having/not having OGL was a minor factor in that. The things I mentioned above are all just additional contributors to the porting headache, not the only reasons.

Most of the major players in the PC market might indeed be using Miles/FMod/OAL - but that still doesn't solve the sound problem entirely. Unless you're doing a shitty port, you've got a boatload of additional tasting with interesting hardware combos to do - and the linux market is not big enough to justify that.

And File I/O is most certainly different once you start using memory mapped files, asynchronous reading, etc.

Re:OpenGL

[rblum]

Technically, I've never ported a full game. I maintained PC versions of my features on a couple of games I worked on, and that was more than enough fun. And yes, I missed a few issues.

But you make my point for me - there are plenty of areas that need extra attention. Even if you right a wrapper, somebody has to write and test the platform specific code - it doesn't write itself. Then there's additional cost for testing, marketing, manufacturing of an extra SKU, and shelf space. You need to sell quite a few copies to make that money back.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Anonymous Coward]

there's an ext2/3 fs bit for windows. you can find it on sourceforge. I used to use it back when I ran Ubuntu as my primary OS on my thinkpad and booted to windows for games.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[wolrahnaes]

There are a couple of ext2 drivers for Windows with read and write support. They also support ext3, but last time I checked they treated it as an ext2 drive, so no journaling. The driver also completely ignores UNIX permissions, though that's understandable seeing that in most situations the permission info is useless even if you just dual-booted over to another install of the same OS.

so, it sucks being able to play my favorite game-

[jimstapleton]

-without crashing? Seriously, one of my favorite PC games (a windows game), plays better under Wine than in Windows. Wine hasn't emulated all the bugs yet, so my game doesn't crash at all, as opposed to windows, where it is one of two apps that actually can take my system down. Actually, even more funny, it's not just Linux it works in, I play it on something even less friendly: BSD, but I did have it up under Linux/Wine too... Yeah, gamin gwithout crashes sucks. I feel so abused.

Why Not Just Give Up??

[Jane Q. Public]

I leave the answer as an exercise for the reader.

play games or a specific game?

[jbaas]

are all gamers the same? do they all want to play all games? does someone simply want to play games, or do they want to play GTA, doom3, WoW, etc.? (btw: all games supported by wine/cedega).

I'm not really a gamer, but if I were to have a subscription to WoW I'd like to be able to play it. Why would it matter to me if other games don't run on linux?

agree .. but what do I get instead ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've come to realise that this - getting and installing Windows - is a pre-requisite for (relatively) trouble free gaming.
My problem is - which Windows should I get ?
XP ? Vista ? What flavour of Vista ? Is there any version without that activation crap I keep hearing about ?
Since I haven't used Windows for a while, I haven't got a clue what these different alternatives imply.
I just wish the writer could have been a bit more specific than recommending "Windows" for gaming.

Anyone out there know which one of the different Windows is cheap and good enough for gaming (only gaming) ?
- I went to Microsofts website, but that has to be the most confusing pile of marketing cr*p I've ever had the displeasure to get lost in.

Re:agree .. but what do I get instead ?

[Daemonstar]

I'd suggest XP Home. It cheaper than Pro; get Pro if you need to be on a Windows domain (I dunno about VPN capability on Home). I think Vista should be out of the question: the EULA alone is bad enough, and it takes good hardware to run right, IMHO (XP and Ubuntu fly on an AMD 1.4G w/768M RAM compared to Vista RC2 crawling on it like I'm running XP with 64M).

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Best. Troll. EVAR.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

easiest answer is to put all your music on a FAT32 partition, that's what I did when I tried to get a dual boot going. I think I used ext3 but I'm not certain and can't check it (my computer is 150 km away):

I think there have been advances on read/writing NTFS from linux, but how about the other way around?

*sarcasm* Windows is normally NTFS, so I imagine it can read/write properly from/to NTFS partitions *end sarcasm*

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, EXT3 is easily mounted from a windows system - there are at least 2 "drivers" that allow this in NT/XP that I know of - this is how I have my gaming rig setup - gaming only on XP and everything else in Linux - if I happen to want to access something from my EXT3 partition - it is mounted as L:

Installing games

[elviscious]

Yeah I have a lot of trouble with multiple CD game installs too.

mount /cdrom
cd /cdrom
cedega Setup.exe
{Installing... insert disk two}
umount /cdrom

WTF! The cdrom is not busy you lying piece of crap! Eject you SOB!

Re:Installing games

[TheLinuxSRC]

Most of the time you can copy all of the contents of the disks to a single directory on your hard disk and run the install from there. I have done this with Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft and Far Cry and it worked flawlessly -- usually a faster install than doing it from cdrom. YMMV, IANAL, etc....

Re:Installing games

[thebdj]

Tell me you are not seriously having this problem. DO NOT cd /cdrom. run cedega /cdrom/setup.exe. Going into /cdrom is what makes the drive busy. This is a very common mistake and one I see more corrections about in forums then anything else. It is actually a fairly simple notion too. So, if you really did have that problem...I hope I helped...

Re:Installing games

[D4rk Fx]

This is the biggest problem with multiple CD installers. The CD device IS busy because your shell is holding the device open. If you run:
mount /cdrom
cedega /cdrom/Setup.exe

You will have No problems ejecting the CD when it comes time for the second disc.

Re:Installing games

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who have this problem:

See your "cd /cdrom" step? That means bash is in the CDROM's directory. That means bash is "using" the CDROM.

Instead, do cd ~, cedega /cdrom/Setup.exe. Unless you have a system that has an automounter that keeps "using" the CDROM (and sadly, this is pretty common these days), you can easily unmount the CDROM now that it's not being "used."

Anonymous = no karma whore. Laters.

Re:Installing games

[despisethesun]

I don't know why you'd even need to mount or unmount it by hand these days either. I put in a disc, it shows up in Konqueror right away, and when I'm done with it, I right click it and select "Eject disk". I set this up under Gentoo, as well, which is notoriously unfriendly.

Re:Installing games

[the Gray Mouser]

This is part of the problem with Linux in general.

If you need to type anything with the keyboard to do an install, the installer is not up to the task.

Insert CD, click NEXT a few times, Agree to some Legalese, browse for a directory, change CD's when asked and you should be good to go.

Anything more input required is simply more trouble than it's worth to most users.

I haven't used Linux in a few years now, and I do understand things have gotten better, but that was one of the major obstacles I remember.

Re:Installing games

[elviscious]

OMG! That is too funny. As another poster already noted, the problem is that I ran the setup command from the cdrom directory. When I try to unmount it, it fails because I am inside the mount point.

Does everything have to be wrapped in <sarcasm>?

Re:Installing games

[Anonymous Coward]

cd /cdrom

There's your problem. Don't set your current working directory to /cdrom, because the cedega executable will inherit that as it's CWD, and when you go to switch disks, the cedega process will prevent that from happening.

cedega /cdrom/Setup.exe

Nice examples

[Ougarou]

This review is simply stating that games that are not meant to run on Linux, and sometimes even not allowed, are bad at it.
The only valid point the article could make, is that most Linux software is written to be cross-platform and it's easier to run anything Linux on Windows (CoLinux, Gimp for Windows, AbiWord, Gnumeric, XMoto, etc) then the other way around. However, the article doesn't make that point.
In my opinion, this article can only make people mad (and comment on it) or bore them into clicking on adds.

Re:Nice examples

[Enoxice]

If you read the link in your linked article, you'll see that he wasn't banned for running in WINE; he was banned for "unattended play".

Better option

[Anonymous Coward]

Emulate a console if you want to play games. You shouldn't have much trouble playing anything up to Playstation/N64 games on Linux, controllers work fine, and ROMs are easy to find.

Still, the inflammatory tone of the article aside, I agree with the central thesis - dual booting is a pretty reasonable solution. Keep all your MP3s on a FAT partition and you can still use them as background music.

Getting worse?

[scribblej]

I can't see how that's supported by the fucking article.

I'm not a linux gaming apologist. It sucks on Linux, I can't deny. I've not tried crossover, but I DO subscribe to Transgaming. I've only been able to get a couple of old games to run well enough to play after much tweaking. Lately I find it's easier, in fact, to get a CD crack and use regular-old-wine for most of the games I would play.

My examples are Fallout II and Planescape: Torment. Both reasonably old games. I was completely, and utterly unable to get either one to install under Cedega. Both installed, and after using CD cracks, played on regular Wine. Although it DID take considerable trying of different settings to hit on a configuration that was useable given my parameters: I wanted it to play in a Window, not take up the full screen. Both worked full-screen right off the bat.

I, personally, find the Cedega interface (point2play) to be nasty and difficult to use. But I admit they're trying very hard to make it easier -- the buit in updater/upgrader has always been nice, and the recent addition of a database of game settings for a variety of games is also nice -- although as usual none of the games *I* am interested in is on the list!

That's all I guess. I don't have any mystical insight... just my report as a user. I guess it might be interesting to some that Wine often works "better" than Cedega.

-Chris

Re:Getting worse?

[Anonymous Coward]

I quite agree. I've never tried playing games on linux, but what I've seen of my friends using Cedega, the interface is terrible, the games work poorly if at all, and so much time is spent configuring to get anything above 'poor' that you really don't save any time by not dual booting.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your family name is Linux?

too bad nwn 2 is off that list

[TheAxeMaster]

Since "because OpenGL 2.0 wasn't done yet" they developed NWN2 with DirectX. Will there be a linux port? Possibly. Likely? Not really.
 
I am starting to think that, on the surface, OpenGL isn't dominating because there's no money behind it for games. Windows has a vested interest, if they can lock games to windows, people will buy windows. For OpenGL, the only people really putting money into it aren't gaming companies, they're 3D/CAD companies. And they don't really care about features in the same way gamers do.
 
I think that the game companies need to actively participate in the OpenGL standard and throw a little money behind it (I'm looking at you EA) and we might be able to get a truly cross-platform standard.

Re:too bad nwn 2 is off that list

[The_K4]

"Windows has a vested interest, if they can lock games to windows, people will buy windows"

The best example of this is too look at the number of games comming out now and in the near future that require Windows XP. MS is intentially not putting DirectX 9.L onto Windows 2000 even though DirectX 9.L is really just a minor change from DirectX 10 (which is on Win 2K) to make people who run games on Windows 2K upgrade to XP or Vista. It's not just about locking in Windows, it's also about getting people to buy new versions. (Also see the licence change in Vista to prevent people from switching the hardware more then one). Oh you bought a new video-card, more ram, and a faster CPU to be able to play the latest game? Remember to budget for a new copy of windows for that "new" system.

Fun, Fun.

Re:too bad nwn 2 is off that list

[Barny]

Nice idea about not being able to put in more ram or change a vid card, but last time i looked windows only counts a Mobo change as being "major hardware" and even then usually doesn't if you pick a new one with a similar chipset (nforce4ultra > nforce4sli for example).

And guess what, for OEM windows, the amount of changes you are allowed is..... NONE.

Did i happen to mention that this is the case for windows XP as well? Its only the retail one they are changing, and if you are buying retail windows copies, you are practically handing MS your wallet.

All in all, if you do upgrade, and change mobo, ring the number to activate, tell the operator that your old mobo failed, and this is what the company sent you as a warranty replacement, and they will activate your system with no further questions asked :)

Re:too bad nwn 2 is off that list

[_Sprocket_]

All in all, if you do upgrade, and change mobo, ring the number to activate, tell the operator that your old mobo failed, and this is what the company sent you as a warranty replacement, and they will activate your system with no further questions asked :)

And you don't see an issue with having to lie like that?

Strategy games and MMOs

[snuf23]

What if you like to play strategy games? Somehow I don't think Civilization 4 or Rise of Nations will make it to the Wii. The same goes for tons of other strategy games both old and new.
What if you want to play MMORPGS? MMORPGs are predominantly a PC experience currently. Sure there is Final Fantasy on the Xbox 360 or PS2 and WoW on Mac but the majority of them are Windows only.

Re:so, it sucks being able to play my favorite gam

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome...Minesweeper is better on Linux??

"mainstream" gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

Is as bland as top 40 chart music. I play games on linux, gleaned from http://www.happypenguin.org/. Sure, they're more raw than a commercial game, like a track from an unsigned band's blog is raw. But they're _more fun_ and have more integrity in the little finger of their blender-drawn blobby characters than 1000 gory commercial FPSes.

Re:"mainstream" gaming

[PygmySurfer]

I think most gamers care less about the integrity of their games (can a game even HAVE integrity? wtf?), and more about graphics that don't make their eyes bleed..

Re:"mainstream" gaming

[Handlarn]

Man, you're cool. You don't like mainstream crap games with graphics, music and stuff like that. You like hardcore games with no graphics, best played on wooden VIC20's powered by windmills.

And being "more fun" is a universal property that is not at all a personal experience.

Well, thanks slashdot

[michaelsimms]

You know, myself and others at Tux Games and LGP work long long hours to get games on Linux. This week Ive done about 30 hours and so far its only the end of tuesday. Thanks for your support, slashdot, in telling me and my staff that we are wasting our time.

It really drives me mad when slashdot refuses to post articles about the last 3 games we released, despite at least 30 or 40 people (that I know of) sending in messages about it, and then go criticise the state of Linux games. If they did their bit maybe our company would be in a better position to get the licenses for more games.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Did you forget to hand them the bundle of money like Roland P. does in return for their shilling?

I think that's you have a good point. Unless you absolutely have to have the latest flavor of the month, there are plenty of fun games for both OS X and Linux without having to reboot. It seems like everything that is popular in the "dedicated gamer" crowd is a varying flavor of a first person shooter anyway.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[dolson]

I did submit an article to Slashdot about the release of a game not long ago by LGP, and as Michael says, indeed, they refused to post it. I guess bitching about the situation is more fun than supporting the only real company trying to make a difference.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Well hey, look who it came from. Zonk, how the heck they ever let such a poorly disguised troll get in to his position I have no idea.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[PygmySurfer]

Maybe if LGP didn't sell a game for £20.00, then sell an UPDATE for £3.00 which actually doesn't add any new functionality, but merely provides support for that game from LGP and the ability to install future updates, people would be more receptive.

Maybe if Tux Games didn't charge $35 more for Quake IV than Best Buy does for the Windows version, they'd get more sales.

What do you mean by doing "their bit"? Should they keep their mouth shut about the problems they have running the games they want to play, yet shout from the rooftops when something actually IS released that supports Linux? Should they purchase games they don't want, to generate more sales for you, which is really the only thing that's going to entice developers to give your company licenses for more games.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I for one need to say this:

Keep up the good work. I greatly appreciate what you guys do, and please don't get discouraged when some elitist hive-mind forum doesn't give you the props you deserve.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh man, Tribes 2! Thank gawd!

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[michaelsimms]

> Maybe if LGP didn't sell a game for £20.00, then sell an UPDATE for £3.00 which actually doesn't add any
> new functionality, but merely provides support for that game from LGP and the ability to install future
> updates, people would be more receptive.

Yessss and if you had RESEARCHED this properly you would understand. The update we sell is for the LOKI version so that to get support people dont have to pay and get a whole new game. We arent going to support the loki version because a) its not our game, we dont have the source, and b) its not our game. The update is sold so people get a supported game for LESS.

> Maybe if Tux Games didn't charge $35 more for Quake IV than Best Buy does for the Windows version, they'd
> get more sales.

We are in the UK, we have to pay a lot more for the games we buy. We actually make NO PROFIT on over half of the games we sell. We sell them at cost price.

> What do you mean by doing "their bit"? Should they keep their mouth shut about the problems they have
> running the games they want to play, yet shout from the rooftops when something actually IS released that
> supports Linux?

No but nor should they ignore any progress Linux gaming makes and criticise Linux gaming on a regular basis. Some of each would be nice.

> Should they purchase games they don't want, to generate more sales for you, which is really
> the only thing that's going to entice developers to give your company licenses for more games.

If slashdot reports on the games that are available, sales go up. Thats a fact of the slashdot effect. If we get more sales we can afford more licenses. That is the fact of licensing games. Companies that we license games from care about MONEY, and if we sell more games we license bigger games. I dont want ANYONE to buy games they dont want, but letting people know what is out there would allow people to know about them and buy them IF they want.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[the_REAL_sam]

Well YOU could have mentioned those games, too, you know, but you didn't.

No need to get insulted, though. Go for a walk...get some sunlight. Feel the warmth on your face! Don't push yourself too hard..preserve your hands and your sanity. I've been in the ultra crunch state, too, pardner. Don't burn out.

I did not rt*a, but I think what they might be getting at is the fact that Windows has a ton of games already written for it, AND the momentum of being the default platform. Linux has some good advantages, but those are not Linux advantages. That is not an insult to you, it's a fact that emerges from the history of games.

Things can change though. It encourages me to see that there IS a software house that makes linux games. If nothing else than for the sake of linux.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Trolls generate unrest and angry back-and-forth discussions, which drive up ad impressions, which makes money.

Zonk is like the ultimate slashdot employee.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[zborgerd]

Ditto. I'd say that the last few I've submitted have been rejected. Frankly, I thought they were well-written submissions as well...

* 2006-08-04 15:10:52 Linux Game Publishing Releases Cold War for Linux. (Index,PC Games (Games)) (rejected)
* 2006-05-30 18:17:50 LGP Announces Release of X2: The Threat (Games,Space) (rejected)

Pretty sad too. Both are excellent titles. Guess people are too wrapped up in making Cedega work to be playing Linux games.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[DoofusOfDeath]

No offense, and I am happy that you're working on this, but the games you're porting just don't at first blush look... fun. I'm not saying it's your fault; I'm sure publishers aren't tripping over themselves to get games onto the Linux market. But I'm just not interested in the games I see on your website.

I'd still seriously consider buying a port of Civ III (or even better, IV), one of the recent Heroes of Might and Magic, X-Com, etc. That is, games that are getting long in the tooth but that have tremendous replay value. If you can do a good port of one of those, PLEASE let me know - I'll be first in line to buy (er - I mean license) a copy.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

We actually make NO PROFIT on over half of the games we sell. We sell them at cost price.

While I have no doubt that's true, it's irrelevant from the consumer standpoint. Looking at your catalog and its pricing you're basically a charity, to be honest. You're selling Majesty, a game that can be had on the second hand market for a penny plus a couple dollars shipping for 27 pounds. That's $51 dollars!! The brand new hot game release costs $49.99.

That price may be necessary to your business, but it's a deal breaker to any consumer whose motive is anything other than specifically donating to your cause. You're in a Catch-22. To become more successful, you'll need competitive pricing. To price competitively you'll need more volume first. I wish you all the best, and this isn't a slam, but I don't see you advancing the Linux game market in any significant way.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you redirect an hour or two to working on the website?

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Well YOU could have mentioned those games, too, you know, but you didn't.

Smooth move, ex-lax. You completely missed the point.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[ClamIAm]

The mere existence of LGP prove that this article is certified, grade-A BS. One of its main "points" is that Loki died, yet the author fails to mention the fact that there are companies that release games on Linux. Aside from LGP, we have developers like Id and Epic, as well as many indie/online groups who now release Win/Mac/Linux versions of their games. If the author had done any actual research, he would have seen that the situation today is most likely a lot better than the days of Loki.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Go for a walk...get some sunlight. Feel the warmth on your face!

It's winter, you insensitive clod!

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[_iris]

I agree whole-heartedly. I don't much like the digg.com system, but I wish that Slashdot would require 3 editors to review stories and then users could filter which stories they see based on how many editors gave it the thumbs-up.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Dausha]

When did price get into it? The grandparent post only cites the lack of community support for helping get the word out about successes. You rebut with a complaint about cost, which is not relevant to the grand-parent.

Regardless, you're getting an OS for free and yet complaining when some applications that can be run on it actually costs something?! That's rather unfair. OSS does not exist just for freeloading. Some people actually make a living off of it by providing value-added support or service. You are complaining about that value added service by the fact that those who make Win32 games available for Linux have to charge something, rather than pay for the entire thing out of pocket and gift it to you.

I'm sorry, that just does not work for me. That smacks of being ungrateful for those who are trying. I'm not saying there should be groveling and supplication, but at least a friendly nod would probably be appreciated.

The point is that there are some inroads made in Linux gaming---although not perfect. We as a community should at least acknowledge the effort made by those who are trying while simultaneously complaining that more-should-be-done. Otherwise, it sounds like those who are putting effort are being totally ignored.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[the_REAL_sam]

lol. insensetive clod? INSENSETIVE CLODE?! I'LL GIVE YOU INSENSETIVE CLOD!!!

-->it's not EVEN WINTER HERE!! I'M IN CALIFORNIA!!! here it's just really nice outside, as usual. i've been outside in the greenhouse all day! a cool 60 degrees... =)

good therapy and hand exercise for defense against carpal tunnel: tilling the soil by hand, mixing the earth and the sand...relaxing, too.

now for some late night coding. =)

on halloween. =\

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Blakey Rat]

Shogo is on your top sellers list? PC gamers got tired of that one 5 years ago. (Then again, "top sellers" on a Linux game site might mean you sold two boxes of it.)

Despite your firm belief that Slashdot is personally spiting you, the fact is that developers use DirectX because it's easy to make a game with, it's cheap to work with, and it ports easily to Xbox and Xbox 360. When Microsoft releases XNA, if they haven't already, it'll be all those things PLUS free. Linux has no development tools that can compete with that.

In addition to that, let's assume that Slashdot is representative of the Linux community as a whole. Have you noticed anything about the articles here on P2P? That's right! Almost everyone here is pro-piracy and feels no guilt stealing anything they can get their grubby hands on. You know why there's no PC or Mac port of Halo 2? It's because Halo 1 was the most-pirated game in history... who would want to write for an audience that's perfectly willing to steal your product? That's just dumb.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[PygmySurfer]

Yessss and if you had RESEARCHED this properly you would understand. The update we sell is for the LOKI version so that to get support people dont have to pay and get a whole new game. We arent going to support the loki version because a) its not our game, we dont have the source, and b) its not our game. The update is sold so people get a supported game for LESS.

You sell the Loki version on the website, along with the update. Couldn't you bundle the update with the Loki version, and leave the download for others who've already purchased the Loki version?

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[PygmySurfer]

When did price get into it? The grandparent post only cites the lack of community support for helping get the word out about successes. You rebut with a complaint about cost, which is not relevant to the grand-parent.

OP insinuated that Slashdot running articles like this hurt their sales, by suggesting it's a waste of time. I merely suggested that maybe it's not articles like this on Slashdot (or any other site) that is the problem, it's that they're charging more than other vendors do who sell the same products on competing platforms. Or that they're selling you a game, and then an update for that game - we wouldn't let EA get away with that, why should LGP get away with it?

Regardless, you're getting an OS for free and yet complaining when some applications that can be run on it actually costs something?! That's rather unfair. OSS does not exist just for freeloading. Some people actually make a living off of it by providing value-added support or service. You are complaining about that value added service by the fact that those who make Win32 games available for Linux have to charge something, rather than pay for the entire thing out of pocket and gift it to you.

But these sites aren't related to OSS at all, other than that they supply games for Linux. The games aren't open source or free software. The issue is the same for the Mac, games like Quake 4 still go for $50, which to me doesn't seem fair, either. The games come out later, and cost more than their PC counterparts by the time they are available on both platforms.

The point is that there are some inroads made in Linux gaming---although not perfect. We as a community should at least acknowledge the effort made by those who are trying while simultaneously complaining that more-should-be-done. Otherwise, it sounds like those who are putting effort are being totally ignored.

Articles like this also highlight where improvements need to be made. Unfortunately, the REAL solution is to get the developers to develop for more than one platform. Blizzard may neglect the Linux market, but they've always supported the Mac, and with recent releases they've even done simultaneous shipments for both platforms, with the binaries for both platforms on the same disc. id Software has also been pretty good about supporting both the Mac and Linux. LGP and Tuxgames may do admirable work, but for the majority of users, it's not going to be sufficient - paying 3x the price for the privilege of running something on Linux isn't going to fly.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

...the fact is that developers use DirectX because it's easy to make a game with...

Ha. HA. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

I can easily see you have never actually USED DirectX in any serious capacity (or possibly at all). It is a royal PAIN. True, it is better than what it was, but that's not saying much. And SDL + OpenGL is still, far and away, far, far easier to use than any version of the DirectX suite. The only thing DirectX buys you is (as you mentioned) portability to XBox. Which can definitely be killer if the business folks decide they want to have the game run there.

As for development tools, Linux has by far, much better tools than any Windows version.

There are basically three things that are truly hurdles for Linux gaming:

• No critical mass
• Lack of good graphics drivers
• Lack of an easy, hassle-free way to install 3rd party apps.

These are all problems, but not insurmountable. As Linux improves, the number of users slowly increases towards that critical mass required. Reverse engineering projects, Intel graphics chipsets (which are not suited for most high-end gaming, are still useful for stuff circa 1998), and the possibility of the Open-Graphics Project all help in the second. And the third, while being bitterly resisted by the Old Guard Distros (no, you are NEVER going to get all software everywhere in an apt-repository, folks. STOP TRYING.), is making progress with things like ZeroConf and Autopackage. So, things are much brighter in gaming now than they were in the past.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

What's with the sense of entitlement? You make it sound like Slashdot is obligated to give free advertising to your company.

Re:Well, thanks slashdot

[cheesybagel]

The original X-Com and Terror From The Deep work fine in the DOSBox emulator.

I see no mention of Doom 3 or Quake 4

[ThomasHoward]

Both of which work beautifully in linux, although the installation process is perhaps less than friendly. However, Cedega has crappy performance for garry's mod for HalfLife 2, no antialiasing, and it chokes when lots of things move.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[SupplyMission]

Dual booting is okay for games, but how about when you want to play music in the background?

Looks like it's time to stop whining, and make a decision about how you're going to solve this problem.

Here's an idea. Prepare in advance. Burn an audio CD (or MP3 CD if your audio system can play those) with the play list you want to hear during your gaming. Burn multiple discs if you have a multiple CD changer. Then pop 'em all in, boot into Windows, and game away. An advantage is that you can change tracks on your CD player without having to switch to your media player.

Or just keep all your music on an NTFS partition. (Yes, just do it and get over it. Once you manage to cross this psychological barrier, you will enjoy increased self-confidence as a bonus.)

Or just have a second computer where you keep all your music, shared over your LAN. Connect this computer to your audio system. You can get an older Pentium perfect for this purpose, for less than $200.

Either way, I don't believe that you absolutely need to have your 20 gigabyte music collection playing on random while you play games.

Failure to convert

[fr175]

I recently spent 3 months with Ubuntu (6.06 LTS) after moving from Win XP Pro. I use the PC primarily for gaming, but took the Linux plunge when a trojan forced a reinstall of Windows (Side note,the trojan was my own fault as I ran an exe intentionally when I figured the risk was worth the potential reward). Using Cedega, I was able to play WoW, SWG, HL2, Guild Wars, and others. However, while these games were able to run, they didn't run well, and didn't come close to the performance in Windows. Obviously, they shouldn't perform as well as in their native OS, but it's worth noting that while they work, they don't work well (WoW being the exception, due to it's use of OpenGL most likely). I spent hours upon hours getting games to work, rather than actually playing them. And if a game had been released in the past 6 months, you may as well forget about it. By the time most games get around to being playable with WINE/Cedega, they're in the bargain bin at retail stores. So, I went back to Windows. As much as I'd love to leave MS behind, it's just not practical. I'll be getting a Wii also, and have a 360 that I won, but I still prefer a PC to a console and until developers start porting their games to Linux, I'll be stuck with Win.

Re:Failure to convert

[Anonymous Coward]

Side note,the trojan was my own fault as I ran an exe intentionally when I figured the risk was worth the potential reward
Which means, it said that it was Anna Kournikova pics in a self-extractor. Who *wouldn't* click on that? Come on!!

Why This Article is Missing Details.

[zborgerd]

http://linuxgamepublishing.com/

LGP has stepped in to fill the void that Loki left. In fact, they've already outlasted Loki and still appear to be pushing on, and several of their games are excellent.

The author misses a few critical points when he looks at Linux games. First, many companies are porting in-house rather than having a third party do the work. Often, these binaries are downloadable from the companies website rather than shipping them on the CD (Quake 3, Neverwinter Nights, Darwinia, etc.). Also - Sometimes things take time. I wouldn't say that Linux gaming is "worse", but is perhaps "different" than it was when Loki was around. Companies are being cautious. Take a look at the slew of high-cost Activision games that Loki managed to score, only to run themselves into the ground. Think that there is perhaps a reason for their fall?

I don't believe that WINE is an appropriate alternative to having a dedicated Windows gaming system. But for those that casually game on Linux, or play more console games than Linux games, we can still find many excellent Linux games available without resorting to using WINE. I feel that the author's turn from discussing Loki ports to using WINE for gaming on Linux misses the bigger picture... Because it simply details his bad experience with using WINE for serious gaming. *NOT ONCE* was a modern native Linux game mentioned, and there are several games that are (in my opinion) MUCH BETTER than many of the Loki offerings. So, basically his gripe is about being unable to play Call of Duty on Linux. Good job on summing up how well a compatibility layer works instead of talking about real Linux games.

I must confess... It really pisses me off when I post announcements about legitimate Linux games from LGP and other companies, and Slashdot mods neglect to inform the community by rejecting the article, further perpetuating the cycle of "sucky Linux gaming" because people are ignorant of the games that *ARE* out there... Yet, crap like this ExtremeTech article manges to get front-page news. Good job mods!

That said, it's my understanding that LGP has a few AAA games coming up that will knock our socks off. Will they be ignored by the Slashdot crew like the last few great games were? I sure as hell hope not, because I'm sick of reading articles like this. IF YOU WANT MORE GAMES ON LINUX, STOP BEING LIKE THIS EXTREMETECH GUY AND BUY LINUX GAMES INSTEAD OF RESORTING TO WINE AND BITCHING ABOUT HOW IT DOESN'T WORK!

Re:Why This Article is Missing Details.

[zborgerd]

Slight correction. I meant "DOOM 3" rather than "Quake 3". Though I guess that Q3 is available for download as well (in addition to the source code being GPL'd).

There are indies who support linux

[Anonymous Coward]

There are indies who support linux.

Support the indies, and they'll support you:

http://www.caravelgames.com/Articles/Games_2/JtRH. html
http://grubbygames.com/
http://sillysoft.net/

I'm sure there are more.

Re:There are indies who support linux

[ProppaT]

And you know what? They're probably wasting their time. The people who are interested in indie games are going to be gaming hobbiests who are gonna have a closet full of consoles and a Windows machine. There's the techie/computer nerd crossover, but even the majority of that crowd doesn't use linux.

Gaming on Linux sucks because users need a reason to switch to Linux first to make it a viable platform. OSX is a success and it still sucks for gaming, why should Linux be any better? "Because it's free and open source and you should support open source" isn't really an answer...

Re:There are indies who support linux

[Lerc]

I'm an indie game-dev sort. I haven't yet released any games under Linux (because I didn't run linux in the past). Now that I do have a Linux box, I'll probably make Linux ports of my next games. And you are absolutely right, I _don't_ expect to make any substantial money from it. Why? I guess for the same reasons that I'm an indie.

The thing that I wonder about. There are a number of big companies who make Linux their bread and butter. Could some of these sponsor projects from indies. You can get surprisingly good bang for your buck from a lot of indies. Wikipedia says Red Hat has around 1,150 employees. Surely they could find maybe 3 teams of three and one solo indie to add some well polished professional looking games to the Linux repertoire. paying another ten people would be a drop in the bucket. It would have a notable impact on the overall impression of Linux by new users.

Not that I've asked any of these big outfits it they'd be up for it. I just figured someone should do it.

Re:There are indies who support linux

[Mr. Shiny And New]

The problems with, say, RedHat sponsoring game development for Linux are numerous:

1. RedHat is an enterprise software company, and thus their shareholders may frown upon the high risk of branching out into the home-entertainment market.
2. Games are, by nature, very risky investments. Most games fail.
3. Typical games now have multi-million dollar budgets, akin to Hollywood movies. RedHat can't afford to take this kind of risk on something not core to its business.
4. The target market for Linux games is incredibly small.
5. The lifetime of a game is very short, unlike business applications. Only a few hit games are still making money a year after they are released.

All of these factors basically shut RedHat out of the big game business. Now, your post was about indie games. But typically indie games are comparable to the open-source games Linux already has; these likely do not increase Linux sales or adoption and thus are not likely to be funded by any commercial distro.

Re:There are indies who support linux

[ProppaT]

I wasn't even bringing money into the equation. I was more or less talking about making freeware games for Linux. Unless you're a die hard Linux user who wants to provide something to the community or try and get more people to try out Linux, your goal is to have as many people play your game as possible. I'd publish my freeware game on Windows rather than Linux just because I'd want as many people as possible play something I put my sweat and tears into.

Re:There are indies who support linux

[Lerc]

But typically indie games are comparable to the open-source games Linux already has;

Oh, I take massive exception to that one. There are a few games like Frozen Bubble That get maybe halfway to the polish of a good indie game. Most of them look little more than a game developed to the proof of concept level.

Or... just play console games instead

[Futaba-chan]

Why bother with Windows at all? I have a large enough backlog in my "to play" list at the moment between handhelds and my PS2 that I don't really have *room* to add another platform anyway. And that's without considering the games that natively exist on Linux that I find myself playing as much or more than commercial efforts: Wesnoth, Nethack, lots and lots of IF, Flightgear, Freeciv, retro games under emulation, and so forth.

And I don't have to get on the graphics card treadmill, either.

Re:Or... just play console games instead

[goarilla]

what's IF?

Anyway my top list, excluding yours titles, in non alphabetical order:

• bzflag http://www.bzflag.org/
• armagetronad http://www.armagetronad.net/
• warsow http://www.warsow.net/
• alien arena http://red.planetarena.org/
• xmoto http://xmoto.sourceforge.net/
• tumiki fighters http://tumiki.sourceforge.net/ this is a port of a win game tho
• frozen bubble http://www.frozen-bubble.org/
• sturmbahnfuhrer http://www.sturmbahnfahrer.com/
• globulation 2 http://globulation2.org/wiki/Main_Page/

and there are many more

Re:Or... just play console games instead

[Jackmn]

what's IF?

Interactive fiction. The best resource for IF games is probably the IF Archive. The Underdogs has a fairly extensive collection as well, along with reviews for the games.

corrected the link for you

[advocate_one]

LGP

Re:corrected the link for you

[michaelsimms]

Whoops - thanks.
I think I was a bit heated when I was writing there {:-) I didnt check as well as I should {:-)

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Fat32 really sucks. Too many shortcomings, like no utf-8, soo many characters you can not use in the filename and only 255 characters in a files whole path. While you could have much longer pathnames on e.g. ext3, and use all the 255 characters for your filename and not having to think about how long the path is.

Get A Console

[zoward]

Last generation, I finally gave up keeping two separate PC's (one for Linux, one for gaming), and bought an Xbox 360. My Linux PC does everything non-gaming I need/want to do, and I fire up the 360 when I want to game. Problem solved.

BTW, for others who do this: if you want to stream audio from Linux to the 360, Google "x360mediaserve" (or go find it on SourceForge).

Blessing

[sabit666]

I actually find this situation as a blessing. I do not waste time playing games as much as I used to when Windows was my primary desktop. I only have UT2004 installed, and go for some botmatches once a day.

Re:so, it sucks being able to play my favorite gam

[jimstapleton]

LOL, minesweeper doesn't crash windows... Actually, I was talking about Master of Orion 3

Frozen bubble

[Anonymous Coward]

Frozen bubble 2 was just release a few days ago (10.27)

http://www.frozen-bubble.org/

No Windows port for the moment ;)

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Walter Carver]

try this, and this

How many times does it need to be said!

[MSFanBoi2]

OpenGL != DirectX.

OpenGL is close to what Direct3d offers, but Direct3d is offering a LOT more than OpenGL currently can. Even the latest additions to OpenGL do not bring it to what Direct3d 9.0, let alone 10.0 offer

Now if you want to include the fact that the DirectX suite has a tonne more functionality than just Direct3D, like DirectSound, DirectPlay, DirectInput, DirectDraw, there is no way in heck that OpenGL can compete with it. DirectX is exactly why developers have made the move to it (including Carmack), you don't have to worry about all those things like sound drivers and engines, network stack plug-ins and the like.

Compare Direct3d to OpenGL all you want, but before attempting to FUD, at least know your facts.

Until Linux offers a similar all in one API for game programming, and until Linux users actually go out and pay for the software (read about Carmack's tracking of Linux SKU's for Quake sales), then there is no way in hell any developer interested in making money is going to focus the time and resource to make a portable game, espeically for the Linux platform.

Re:How many times does it need to be said!

[joeljkp]

There is one: SDL. Now to get people to use it...

Re:How many times does it need to be said!

[jZnat]

OpenGL is only the graphics. There are great libraries like SDL (for input, 2d, sound) and OpenAL (sound). In fact, SDL practically is an all-in-one API for game programming (and many other media-based programs); you just need to use OpenGL for 3d graphics.

Besides, the only people that need to worry about these details typically are those who create the game engines (e.g. id, Unreal); other game developers use said engines which should be abstracting that sort of stuff in the first place.

Re:How many times does it need to be said!

[MSFanBoi2]

DOH! Yeah I forgot about SDL.

Except for the fact it's where DirectX 4 was today...

Re:How many times does it need to be said!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm.. where do we start with this..

OpenGL is close to what Direct3d offers, but Direct3d is offering a LOT more than OpenGL currently can. Even the latest additions to OpenGL do not bring it to what Direct3d 9.0, let alone 10.0 offer

Given your following comment you think that GL can't provide games as graphically impressive as DirectX, right? What about Quake 4? Shit, what about Quake Wars?! If Sony have bothered to get it implemented on the PS3 then they've obviously got a reason. Unless you know better?

Now if you want to include the fact that the DirectX suite has a tonne more functionality than just Direct3D, like DirectSound, DirectPlay, DirectInput, DirectDraw, there is no way in heck that OpenGL can compete with it. DirectX is exactly why developers have made the move to it (including Carmack), you don't have to worry about all those things like sound drivers and engines, network stack plug-ins and the like.

You can get most of that functionality in SDL and OpenAL. They act as abstraction layers, just like that portion of DirectX. I'm not sure where you got that thing about Carmack now developing under DirectX. He may use the other portions of DirectX for Windows, but hasn't moved to developing under DirectX altogether. And what the hell are you ranting about with the phrase 'network stack plugin'?! Are you implying some games implement their own low-level network protocol under IP or something?

Until Linux offers a similar all in one API for game programming, and until Linux users actually go out and pay for the software (read about Carmack's tracking of Linux SKU's for Quake sales), then there is no way in hell any developer interested in making money is going to focus the time and resource to make a portable game, espeically for the Linux platform.

The libraries are there. It isn't hard to do, seeing as many games companies have pulled it off. And as an added bonus those libraries mostly work under OS X too. It's almost entirely done on the basis that it's uneconomical to port a game to Linux.

Re:How many times does it need to be said!

[_iris]

OpenGL is close to what Direct3d offers, but Direct3d is offering a LOT more than OpenGL currently can. Even the latest additions to OpenGL do not bring it to what Direct3d 9.0, let alone 10.0 offer

circa 2000, this was exactly the opposite. The reason D3D is now as good as OGL is because game developers were convinced to use it over OGL despite its' shortcomings and because of their feedback (and, in some cases, direct work on it), it evolved. Should game developers choose to use OGL despite its' shortcomings, the situation would reverse once more. I believe most devs were won over by the development tools that integrated with D3D and, most recently, the shader tools. Something like Linux-based OSes on the consoles could be just the thing to convince developers to ignore OGL's shortcomings.

Until Linux offers a similar all in one API for game programming

SDL is close and, if developers used it, it would evolve in the same way that D3D did -- except probably more quickly due to the open source characteristics of quick, easy collaboration.

until Linux users actually go out and pay for the software

Or pays for subscriptions for a persistent world. Second Life has a linux client, albeit rough around the edges. I really, really, really wish that EA would just hire two CS interns to port the UO client to Linux in order to get the ball rolling (disclaimer: I have not used the UO client since ~2000 when I began using Linux exclusively).

Re:How many times does it need to be said!

[oliverthered]

"OpenGL is close to what Direct3d offers, but Direct3d is offering a LOT more than OpenGL currently can. Even the latest additions to OpenGL do not bring it to what Direct3d 9.0, let alone 10.0 offer "

What like network transparancy? OpenGL offes a lot more than Direct3d (9.0) too. Both technologies are close enough, when it comes to the features that games require, that there's no difference.

I'm sure the extra features in DirectX 10 will make it into OpenGL soon but the extra features of OpenGL don't look like there going to make it into DirectX any time soon.

Since Loki's last game

[michaelsimms]

Since Loki died, the following games have been released.

Majesty Gold
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Creatures Internet Edition
Doom 3
Unreal Tournament 2003
Candy Cruncher
Uplink
Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide
Hyperspace Delivery Boy
NingPo MahJong
Soul Ride
Savage: The Battle for Newerth
Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark
Dominions II: The Ascension Wars
Gorky 17
Software Tycoon
Unreal Tournament 2004
Northland
Postal 2: Share the Pain
Darwinia
Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil
Robin Hood: The Legend of Sherwood
X2: The Threat
Quake IV
Tribal Trouble
Airline Tycoon Deluxe
Cold War
Dominions 3: The Awakening

A lot of these games may be older, but not all of them, and most of them are top notch and FUN games. Go try some, and enjoy them! Natively, no need for emulators, or rebooting. Now if you can tell me that there is no way to play games on Linux, I think I'll have to just disagree.

Right now we are working on a number of deals for some games that will be far better than anything Loki managed to publish. Of course when we do, I am sure slashdot will ignore the release announcements and continue to report on the death of Linux gaming.

Re:Since Loki's last game

[Mr. Jaggers]

I'll testify to Cold War and the whole Neverwinter Nights catalog. Not to mention the, what, four or five premium modules, all of which play on Linux? There's a lot of game there (not including the massive community expansion packs and additional community generated content).

I'm still sore about NWN2, and I worry that Atari/Obsidian's treatment of the community contributors will result in a smaller community of content creators, and thusly less popularity for the game in general. Which would mean no NWN3 (or not a very big effort), and sure as hell no NWN3 for Linux.

Dammit.

Re:Since Loki's last game

[MattBurke]

I played a lot of those games. They were fun. Several years ago. Why would I want to re-buy them?

I am a gamer. I have a high-end gaming PC which I use more or less exclusively to play games (mainly Eve Online, Oblivion, MS Flight Sim, Steam games) under WinXP/Vista at 1920x1200 resolution at a decent ol' framerate with all the graphical niceness turned way up.

Linux? Can't even get an install CD (including Ubuntu's latest) to recognise the disk controller (have to boot another machine into linux and compile a module). In the (very) rare cases I can get the ATI drivers working without the machine completely locking up I'm able to benchmark Doom3/Quake4 (after fixing library issues) I get about 60% the performance of what I would get using just the one graphics card in Windows. Maybe I'm just not configuring it right for crossfire operation, but I shouldn't have to. Maybe I need a new kernel, but I can't be bothered working after work. Then there's the whole farce around buying another copy of the games to play them legally sometimes and the the wine/cedega fun. ALSA? ESD? OSS? ETC? Why isn't my soundcard working? And is it running hardware accelerated drivers or is it acting like a £5 card? Oh and there's always the fun bits like the network card which only has 32bit drivers. That you have to download. Somehow... Yes that's all a bit stretched but it's all happened on my gaming rig at one time or another.

Basically UNIXish OSs aren't usually suitable to run the sort of hardware (ie the latest generation consumer grade crap) that gamers like me like to blow our hard-earned money on. This is why I have a FreeBSD (Linux at work, urgh) desktop with specifically chosen hardware (with 100% OSS drivers) for doing serious work on, and a shit-hot gaming rig running Windows. It Just Works.

Until nvidia/ati find some magical way around the failings of the X server for gaming, hardware designers all donate driver code to the Linux kernel, AND everyone can make their binaries work against everyone else's libraries and kernels, it will always be easier and tbh a better all-round experience to just buy the latest computer game at the supermarket with my shopping, switch on the Windows box, pop the dvd in the drive, install, then download the no-cd crack. That's a BIG 'until'!

Re:Since Loki's last game

[chromatic]

Until nvidia/ati find some magical way around the failings of the X server for gaming...

NVidia and ATI are the failings of the X server for gaming.

Re:Since Loki's last game

[spacebird]

I keep hearing these things, and every few months I go "Okay, I'm gonna sit down and install Linux and learn how all this stuff works." So I go to some board, ask what a good distro to use is, since I'm a total Linux n00b, install said distro, proceed to bang my head into a wall as I try to work through endless problems, then give up and go back to Windows. This is the reason that I've never gotten into Linux. So what's my problem? I know computers, I'm a geek, I use free software over proprietary whenever I can, I should fit the bill for a potential Linux user, right?. So please, tell me how the hell I can get Linux running and playing my games and my music. And for once, make it at least somewhat simple.

Re:Since Loki's last game

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend to try this:

www.kanotix.com

Kanotix is a rock-solid Linux based on Debian-Sid, which contains the newest packages and recognizes more modern hardware than any other operating system in use today.

Re:Since Loki's last game

[Sinistar2k]

That's great and all, but depending on the time of year, Windows will see that many games released in a week.

I'm not belittling your effort, but you are using a very short list of titles released over the last few years to show how progress is being made for Linux gaming. That progress is glacial in the world of gaming.

Linux is just not well suited to be a gaming OS. Linux library developers just can't seem to ever decide something is "good enough" to be a standard across all distros, leading to a jumbled mess of possible configurations. It is then left up to developers to decide which distributions and libraries they'll support, which may further cut down on the potential audience for their native titles. Then there are the drivers that never seem quite up to par, the need to check for dependencies, the lack of standard interfaces, the inability to make any of this easy for users...

I tried Linux gaming for quite some time, was a TransGamer subscriber, bought titles from Loki, even have my Q3Arena Linux tin and wide boxes of Linux Quake 1 and 2, but it was just too much of a pain to game in Linux, so I gave it up.

I appreciate your efforts, but you yourself realize you're doing it on principle and not for massive profit. Most publishers are looking more for massive profit. The jumbled mess that is supporting Linux drains those profits, resulting in lack of mainstream gaming support for the platform.

Honestly, if folks were to program a unified set of libraries for Linux gaming and could deny themselves the desire to code continual innovations for a year (let it stabilize), there might be some outside interest in wider support.

It just so happens, however, that GPL'd code rarely sits still. Somebody always takes it and does one better, creating confusion as to which version should be the standard, supported one. Microsoft, monolith that it is, at least provides stability in DirectX. Developers can code to it and know that they've got a few years before they have to worry about any major overhauls.

Linux developers can't go a few months without worrying about supporting a whole new distro of the OS.

Re:Since Loki's last game

[Anonymous Coward]

Libraries are irrelevant; commercial games are compiled statically. The library code is built into the executable. They are completely independent of distro configurations. That's why you can still install Q3A from the disc in your tin and it works fine today.

Re:Since Loki's last game

[ardor]

Without them, there is zero chance of gaming. At all. They are the failings? Explain this. Without NVidia, I have zero chance of getting Doom 3 and UT2004 to work in Linux. Absolutely ZERO.

Wouldn't LiveCD linux games be possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even for people who don't want to install Linux on their systems -- wouldn't games that execute as boot-up games on a Linux LiveCD be possible? Sure, all the media would have to be streamed from the CD/DVD -- but that's no big deal, consoles do it all the time.

PS3

[Ender Ryan]

The PS3 uses OpenGL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Game_de velopment

Re:PS3

[rblum]

Correction. The PS3 *can* use OpenGL. I could tell you more, but then I'd have to kill you ;)

Re:PS3

[Anonymous Coward]

Robin: "Holy implicational FUD!"

No games?

[Klaidas]

Huh, what do you mean no games?! There are plenty of them:
1. Extreme Man Page Reading
2. Obscure error puzzle palace
3. Mega Nmap Death Ping
4. Ksolitaire
5. sudo
6. IRC
7. Learning Emacs
I could go on and on!
Ok, let's close the sarcasm tag for now. This is not news. How did it get to the front page? It has been obvious for years.

Re:No games?

[AP2k]

You forgot to include "Happy Time in Broadcom Way"

Re:No games?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not news. How did it get to the front page? It has been obvious for years.

I don't know where you live, but here in America it is Halloween after all, the Night Of The Living Dead. So I figure the article is quite timely.

At least it's lots better than Worst 10 games ever or some lazy-a** article writing like that

Re:No games?

[Anonymous Coward]

8. Hunting for good recipes in /usr/src/linux

Marketing

[vrar]

Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the OS. Hell I spent hours trying to get X-wing to work on a crappy 486 box back in the day, and if a game is fun enough, I'd do it again. Microsoft has marketed an OS to the public that gives them the idea only Windows can give you an easy solution to gaming. Pop a CD in and boom your off running. All the flavor's of Linux haven't gone to the extreme that Microsoft has in making their OS seem gamer-friendly. The author IMO has been well trained by the Microsoft Marketing team, and must be applauded for their fine work.

Re:Marketing

[kinglink]

I think you miss the point, windows is USER friendly. Not programmer, hacker, sys admin happy, but user happy.

What's shocking is people constantly switch and then act like it's a crime that everyone should switch even though 90 percent of the computer market still only supports Windows. Then they'll end up quoting emulation as the savior. Emulation should be used when the alternative is not an option, most linux boxes run on systems fully capable of running windows.

Linux needs to be more "user-friendly". You might enjoy hunting for new drivers, kernel updates, drivers for new kernel, program updates, program tweaks, and programs but gamers arn't looking for that. Personally I hate having to download new drivers every time I want run a new game or updates to the game itself. If I get annoyed by updating two devices, why would I want to add more complexity to the arguement. Why run 2 programs to play Flight Simulator, when instead I can just run flight simulator?

Windows isn't perfect, but Linux has flaws too, acting like it doesn't won't help the community. Btw this is the same position that Mac gamers were in five years ago, now they are almost extinct, realize it's time figure out if this is solvable or just an area Linux will wither in.

And all of this is becoming moot for me. I've become a console gamer. I am sick of ALL drivers, I'm sick of ALL updates, I want to play games, not make my machine ready to play games and many people are agreeing with that, not to meantion people don't want to make PC based games because they see it as a hot bed of piracy.

Re:Marketing

[Anonymous Coward]

You might enjoy hunting for new drivers, kernel updates, drivers for new kernel, program updates, program tweaks, and programs but gamers arn't looking for that.

So in Windows, you don't go hunting for new drivers, you can't update the system, you've mentioned drivers a second time, you don't update the software you use, you can't tweak programs, and I have no idea what the last one is about at all.

If you're seriously trying to make a point, you might need to think about it a bit more before posting. If you're just trolling, well, hey.. there are better things to troll about.

Re:Marketing

[Anonymous Coward]

Most Linux distro's are USER friendly. Most of the issues you listed deal with making proprietary drivers work in an environment other than Windows. Is this the fault of Linux kernel developers? Nope. It is the company making the drivers proprietary.

This wouldn't be a problem if game makers and hardware vendors developed games to run on Linux platforms also. There is nothing Linux kernel developers can do about that.

Article has it backwards.

[Ant P.]

With Linux, I don't have to sift through the excrement of ignorant/lazy/greedy game companies to find decent games.

Re:Article has it backwards.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's true, we only get the excrement. Much easier!

The real reason?

[Arceliar]

Why does gaming suck on linux? Developers. Windows is the popular OS, so that's what they program for. Sure, some games could be ported, but unless the demand for a linux compatible version is enough to warrant the cost needed to port, no company is going to consider it. Even then, only a handful are willing to take the risk.

Wine, and it's offshots, are a great way of getting things to run. For mundane programs which cannot be ported, it works wonders. But although it works well for games too, it's not a solution.

Of course, with less than optimal support for some hardware, linux has a bit of a disadvantage from the performance standpoint with some setups, but again this is because of the developers--or the people working above them. From what I've heard, no sane developer would wish to use directx over opengl, but I don't have enough experience with either to make any strong arguments about that.

When all is said and done, if you think gaming sucks on linux, you may be right. But who's responsible? The developers, or the project managers above them, are merely developing for the largest market. Although on a different topic, if I may quote V, I think the message is the same...

"How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror." -- V, from V for Vendetta

As long is Microsoft Windows continues to dominate, nay decimate*, the OS market, then hacked together solutions such as Wine will have to suffice for anyone who wishes not to 'sell out' to Microsoft.

*I realize this is an awkward use of the word decimate. Literally, it means to reduce by 1/10th, where as MS Windows has reduced competition to below 1/10th. Although technically incorrect, I think you understand what I mean.

PS: I fully support the Wine project and all derivatives. I think they're doing a great thing by allowing users to run software to which there is no alternative. However, the better support Wine has for software, the less reason most companies will feel the need to port it at their cost, and most companies feel uneasy to say the least about the idea of giving away their source code. It's a bit of a catch 22. Even so, any support for an application is better than no support. Keep up the good work.

wow ran fine for me on debian

[Anonymous Coward]

wow ran fine for me on debian. sure there are a lot of games where it's difficult, and where you lose a few fps, iirc though, wow ran better on debian then windows.

Re:Well, you are welcome.

[MrCopilot]

Thanks for your support, slashdot, in telling me and my staff that we are wasting our time.

The opinions expressed by a sloshdot article do not necessarily reflect the views of Slashdot's Editors, Subscribers, Karma Whores, Trolls or ME. Every once in a while, yes. This one not so much.

I gave up my windows partition long ago and will never go back, thanks in large part to WINE, Cedega, and you guys. You have my eternal appreciation. The only time I see that damn logo is now in a VM and as rarely as I can manage. Somehow life seems just a little more peaceful.

As to the article's content. Yes Setting up a game is a bitch. Finding out what WINgames work under what conditions (Install on windows and copy directory/copy CD/NOCD crack/Registry Entries/etc....) can be excruciating. Every couple of months you have to check them again. (Please when we do this record it at the varios compatability db wikis)

Is that more or less painful than living with windows? Subjective, but as a developer/sysadmin/engineer/father it is far less painful to play/dl/buy Linux friendly games only. While constantly checking my vast library for new compatability.

This weeks wine/cedega Dissapointments
Indigo Prophecy.... Looks like No DXinput
Incredible Hulk ... nothing Prince of Persia 2 ... So close Maybe next year. FEARCombat ............No DXinput.(Guess I'll leave that 1.8gig install just sit there too)

I paid my Cedega subscription for 18months. No new games (that I wanted) were fixed in that time frame (and several ***HL2**cough broke and P2P became the hideous beast it is today)

Meanwhile...

WINE has gotten better with age, hunh. Without any of my money.

Free Games have gotten waaaay better.(Due in no small way to the work of people like you) I have more games on my debian box than most people have in thier entire PC & Console Library combined.

Native Linux games

[cptnapalm]

I come from a FPS background, but I've gotten rather bored of them.

What I have discovered are a few games that remind me of Nintendo gameplay; fun, and a bit cartoony, but not violent.

I rather like Neverball. Balance the platform to roll the ball to pick up the coins. Level 12 is still kicking my butt.

There is, of course, Planet Penguin Racer. That game is just fun.

There are some other (what I see as) half done games that have the potential, but as with many large projects, interest in finishing seems to have waned.

I am fond of Vegastrike, although I do have my gripes.

It seems if I want violence, I need either an id game or a Japanese XP, as that is required for the stalker sims.... (does anyone else find some Japanese tastes to be questionable?)

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[CastrTroy]

I used to play music in the background by burning an audio CD and playing it my computer's CDROM drive. It would come through the speakers or headphones same as the game. And I could skip tracks with the button on the front of the CD drive. It provided much better music than the game usually did.

There are fun games for Linux..

[Anonymous Coward]

You just have to look for them. I just got through playing Fizzball and Professor Fizzlewizzle (http://grubbygames.com/). Gentoo does a pretty good job of setting up certain games for you (Neverwinter Nights,
Doom3, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and plenty others.) Sure I miss out on many of the "Big Names", but there are tons of little indy games which are great fun: "A Tale in the Desert", "Uplink", "Darwinia", looking forward to "Defcon".

The best way to support gaming on Linux is to buy them from Tuxgames (yes I know they cost more) and from the indy publishers (as linux purchases). You have to vote with your dollars to promote your favorite platform.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[CastrTroy]

Does anybody still use EXT2/3 on Linux? I thought everyone had moved over to JFS,ReiserFS, or something else. Maybe slashdot should have a Poll about which file system people prefer the most.

Fauly Reasoning Up Front...

[clang_jangle]

From the article: "So where does all of this leave Linux gamers? One word: Windows.

No freakin' way! The one word is "console".

OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packages

[OzPhIsH]

The thing is, is that DirectX is a complete Windows gaming development environment. Implementing sound, movies, network play, and all that other good stuff that makes up gaming is way easy via DirectX, essentially providing a good abstraction from having to deal with all those hardware issues directly. DirectX is WAY more than just Direct3D. This ease of use is just going to attract more budding devs who want to just jump right in to creating games. Why would a newb hobbiest game programmer even want to mess with getting all those pieces to work together in Linux? If you're just learning the ropes, you're probably going to use the easiest package out there to get your feet wet, which is DirectX. That experience is just going to carry over and influence decisions of said newb turns into professional game dev. In that respect, Linux really needs to get its shit together. There is no layer of unification between all these subsystems that games use that is consistant across all linux platforms, like one finds with DirectX on Windows. Has Linux finally moved onto a mature sound sub system? Using my Ubuntu DD as example, why the hell, if I'm listening to an mp3 via a media player while surfing the web and see a video on you tube I want to watch, does the sound not Just Work? I have to close the player freeing the sound resource, restart the browser, and then revisit the page. What a pain. How the hell is busted architecture supposed to support all the layers of sound and music in a game? Another contention I have is OpenGL itself. What happened? Direct3D simply has more advanced support for today's hardware capabilities. Every game I do play that has both rendering options, the Direct3D version has far superior visuals. One particular example I can recall is some transparant surfaces in FarCry. When switching to openGl, some of those surfaces lose their transparancy, turing into shiny, but opaqe surfaces. This is simply unacceptable in todays games. While I don't know if it is necessarily a result of the difference of capabilites between Direct3D and OpenGL, or simply lazy devs, it just makes you wonder.

God what a ramble.. But the unfortunate reality is that developing games for linux is a nightmare compared to windows. I want to ditch Microsoft as much as anybody. It is such a pain in the ass, the way they go out of their way, to make you go out of your way, just to get your pc to do what you want.. But what when I want to do is play a game with all the latest whiz bang features, there just isn't any other choice.

This can be SO easyily fixed.

[byteframe]

When (not if) Linux Gaming becomes pefect, it will be from one of two causes.

Mint Condition Wine. Someday wine is really gonna be kicking ass, everything will work, and you'll notice maybe 10% at most speed losses. 100% Proof Wine is an acceptable solution to this problem...

or two:

With the increasing number of engine licensing from 3 camps, the source of much of the problems that prevents easy porting can be solved by developing portable gaming engines. You port all the low level code of UE2/3/4 and get unrealscript set up and most games based on that highly provitable negine WILL work across differant platforms. The key to all this is portability,

1. for fucks sake, use SDL.
2. OpenGL yes, OpenAL hopefully

everythings on intel now, its possible...

Why Gaming sucks on windows

[MrCopilot]

Actually, why Windows Gaming Sucks on Linux.

Not enough OpenGL,SDL developers at Ubisoft/EA/Atari and so on.

oss

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you trying to play those games on Linux, when those games aren't open sourced? If you're shelling out $50 to buy a closed source game, why is it anathema to buy a close source OS to play it on?

Or maybe support OSS games?

this article is bull

[Zaire]

I say this post is total crap...I hate winblows with a fkn passion and Im not about to give up cause some @$$hat says it isn't worth the hassle....I say to the one who wrote this article go F*** Yourself with an Iron Stake.

if everyone gave up nothing would ever get done and nothing would ever change.

Mod Parent Up

[middlemen]

Mod the parent up for outlining the sound driver problem in Linux. I love Linux but I hate the sound resource tie-up with application design. It is anal.

No Wine

[l_bratch]

This article is bad for one reason:

It doesn't mention Wine.

It was obviously not written by a Linux gamer.

I am a Linux gamer, and I use Wine to run all the games I play. The author didn't do his research at all.

Direct [X] is what keeps Windows on top

[Sarusa]

It's because of DirectX - and not just the graphics, but DirectSound, DirectInput, etc.

I've written games under Windows and Linux (and way back on the Mac) and it's just easier on Windows because unless you're really stressing the system with new-fangled graphics wowness all the awful nasty bits of interfacing with sound, graphics, mouse, etc. are abstracted away and taken care of for you. This was the brilliance of Alex St. John at MS, and something Linux users and Apple have never seemed to understand; or perhaps the Linux users understand but aren't in a position to do something about it as unilaterally as a small team at MS was. Almost by definition they can't - as soon as you create a standard someone will come up with a competing 'superior' standard. We (Linux users) can't even agree on sound drivers.

I do have fun writing 2D cross-platform stuff with PyGame (based on SDL) and Python. SDL is a good shot at providing the equivalent of cross platform DirectX, but it certainly doesn't have all the features you'd want, because who has as much money and resources as MS? The sound stuff is particularly limited, and you still have the Linux sound driver nightmare (perhaps too harsh a word - 'unpleasantness'?) to deal with.

So gaming on other computer platforms will never be as good as gaming on Windows, because nobody else understands just how much gaming drives hardware sales and platform acceptance and is willing to invest that much into making games easy to create on their platform. Apple has been particularly schizophrenic about this, variously embracing and rejecting gaming. Linux users seem to realize that gaming is important, but it's such a huge amount of work it tends to just end up in denial ('Why would anyone need anything more than Nethack?'). Kudos to LGP and Tuxgames, who are going the extra mile.

Re:Direct [X] is what keeps Windows on top

[rasmusneckelmann]

SDL is a good shot at providing the equivalent of cross platform DirectX, but it certainly doesn't have all the features you'd want, because who has as much money and resources as MS? The sound stuff is particularly limited, ...

For serious games, you'll usually refrain from using the sound features of SDL at all, and simply use OpenAL instead (so does for instance Quake IV). It gives access to virtually the same 3D audio features as DirectX, and even allows games to use fancy EAX hardware features of Creative's soundcards.

For me, SDL is just an excellent cross-platform way of setting up an OpenGL window, which as a bonus provides other nice features as system event handling, timing, threads, input, etc.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Walter Carver]

Ext3 can cover the needs of most home users just fine. Or, you can simply have an Ext3 partition for the files that you want to share. Still better than NTFS (even with the assumption of full write compatibility).

Frozen Bubble 2

[miscz]

It was released recently, I don't think any further comments are required (I'm too busy playing).

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Jesus_666]

I do use ext3. One reason is that I dualboot WinXP for gaming and I want to be able to access my files from both systems (and for obvious reasons I won't use FAT32 on my data partition).

Also, when I started playing with Linux I put SuSE 9.0 on an old computer, using ReiserFS for everything. It turned out that the hard drive developed bad sectos which quickly took out much of the data. That has caused me to perceive Reiser as somewhat risky - the data dies much more quickly than with other FSes. Of course it could've been due to blocks belonging to the metadata tree failing.

This does interest me (also because I'm currently cursed with a flaky HDD controller): Which FSes are the most resilient to damage? I'm not talking to a power outage interrupting some transaction, I'm talking about the HDD controller creating random bit errors or the hard drive itself developing bad sectors. It's nice if BlahFS is up to ten times faster than ext3 but if it gives me the safety of striped RAID I'm not going to like it...

"Torture...crave so desperately"

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh. Somebody needs to put down the mouse and get laid.

Re:Well, you are welcome.

[Anonymous Coward]

Indigo Prophecy.... Looks like No DXinput

You're better off without it. A clumsy action UI that makes it difficult to focus on the action you're (ostensibly) controlling; a story line that starts to peter out halfway through (why am I boxing and playing basketball instead of solving the crime?) and becomes completely absurd by the end; and "choose your own adventure"-style hype that, in reality, is barely more open-ended and interactive than a Lucas Arts adventure's dialogue tree. The game might be interesting to other designers as a proof-of-concept piece, but as entertainment, it blows.

You had it, and then you lost it.

[Generic Player]

"Why does gaming suck on linux? Developers."

Developers and publishers, yes. Most game developers have never seen or heard of anything besides windows before, and are fresh out of their directx for dummies course, eager to work for less than minimum wage for companies like EA. Suprise, this leads to crappy games, that are windows only, and often don't even work right there.

"Sure, some games could be ported, but unless the demand for a linux compatible version is enough to warrant the cost needed to port, no company is going to consider it. Even then, only a handful are willing to take the risk."

There is no cost, every major engine except source is already multiplatform, so there is simply no technical reason why games based on these engines are released windows only. And if you are not licensing an engine, then just write it in opengl to start with instead of direct3d, still no additionall cost. Of course, because there's no cost, there's also no risk. Companies aren't willing to release linux games because they are full of middle manager dummies who's sole purpose in life is to make things difficult for others while trying to make themselves look good in comparison. They have control, and they have no motivation to change anything.

Theres plenty

[everphilski]

Fuck, go back 7 years... Everquest. Me and a friend both tried to run it using WINE in Linux. We both work as linux sysadmins, we aren't clueless. The game doesn't run reliably.

More recently? WoW. 7 million users, probably usurps the number of home linux faithful in the number of hours played vs. number of hours spent in front of their respective linux boxes. Also flaky under Linux, my friend tells me (I don't play).

Save on money

[OzPhIsH]

"By the time most games get around to being playable with WINE/Cedega, they're in the bargain bin at retail stores."

I know a lot of people who would take advantage of this situation, not complain about it. How much do you hate saving money anyway?

Re:Save on money

[chromatic]

Didn't you know? Fun is proportional to price.

OpenGL < DirectX

[everphilski]

For many technical reasons: the inclusion of many helper classes that need to be written (vector/matrix/quaternion libraries, for example), inclusion of sound libraries, advanced device handling, etc. Read up a few posts for a better description.

But the real reason to develop in DirectX/MDX is that your programs port easily to XBOX - more easily than your OpenGL game will port from Windows to Linux. And your target audience of XBOX users is bigger and focused on games. Your Linux crowd is mostly the non-gamer type. There is a real, good, distinct reason to develop DirectX/MDX.

You mean OpenGL vs DirectDraw?

[Ahnteis]

Because DirectX is a whole lot more then just a graphics library.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ClamIAm]

I really don't understand why you're comparing two completely different things. For a fair comparison you should either compare:

A) Direct3D vs. OpenGL

or:

B) DirectX vs. OpenGL + SDL/ClanLib/OpenAL + GStreamer/xine-lib + esound/arts/dmix

its a new site, not an advertising site

[Anonymous Coward]

can you imagine general motors telling ABC its their patriotic duty to advertise GM products?

advertisements do not belong in the editorial section, they belong in the advertising section.

One word -

[Anonymous Coward]

Tremulous

http://tremulous.net/

I'm a PC Gamer 100%

[Flentil]

I love PC games and have been playing them since the BBS days. I don't own any consoles because my gaming rig is always better than the latest console, as are the games (unless they are bad console ports). I would switch completely to linux if they could achieve 100% compatability. Until then, I'll stick with windows. Lack of game compatibility is the -only- barrier for me to make the switch, and it's an all or nothing decision. I won't settle for 98% compatability is what I mean, because chances are the odd game that doesn't work will be the one I want to play most.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[Anonymous Coward]

you just hit the nail on the head.

B) DirectX vs. OpenGL + SDL/ClanLib/OpenAL + GStreamer/xine-lib + esound/arts/dmix


As a game dev if I want the equivalent of what DirectX provides I have to put together a completely disparate set of technologies with vastly different API's and each with there own Quirks/Features/problems. This SUCKS ARSE. game development is all about profit in the long run, the more hassle and time to develop the less profit, hence no one wants to develop to OPENGL et al.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Dausha]

I use FAT for OS-swapping between Linux and Windows. Works just fine both ways. So, what's your point again?

Re:Well, you are welcome.

[MrCopilot]

You're better off without it. A clumsy action UI that makes it difficult to focus on the action you're (ostensibly) controlling; a story line that starts to peter out halfway through (why am I boxing and playing basketball instead of solving the crime?) and becomes completely absurd by the end; and "choose your own adventure"-style hype that, in reality, is barely more open-ended and interactive than a Lucas Arts adventure's dialogue tree. The game might be interesting to other designers as a proof-of-concept piece, but as entertainment, it blows.

My son thinks its great IF and only if he uses a gamepad. We were big fans of Omicron:Nomad Souls, so maybe we aren't as objective as you.
Is it possible you chose-your-own suck adventure?

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Ankur Dave]

The Windows read/write drivers for ext3 are great...NTFS had such a hard time getting supported properly in Linux because it's closed, while ext3 is open.
Here's the driver: http://www.fs-driver.org/

Same thing that happens with Nintendo Gamecube...

[dalmiroy2k]

I'm a hardcore Nintendo fan. I bought a Gamecube back in 2003 and I think it's a great system, far superior than Sony PS2 in every aspect (exept online playing). The problem is that there are not enough games for it.
This year the only decent game I would get it's Splinter Cell Double Agent, but I'm getting the PC version for obvious reasons. On the other side PS2 has Bully and dozens of fresh titles.
I could get a PS2 (Windows in this analogy), money it's not a problem, but I refuse to support Sony (Microsoft) and greedy developers cough*EA*cough, so while my Gamecube collects dust I'm sticking to my DS and wainting for Wii.

International Email a Game Producer Month

[kseise]

I was looking to make a push for this this month. Now that someone started the topic here, maybe we can get more attention. ubuntu.com suse.com These are the two topics I had started to get people to contact the major game producers and get them to notice us. Develop native applications, don't charge the Microsoft Tax just to be able to play a video game. As for Tux Gaming and LGP have nice products, but I don't think they quite compare to the major publishers out there. Why not send a message this month?

Re: International Email a Game Producer Month

[kseise]

Sorry, that should have been http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/index.php?act=Se arch&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=a375587bad0c2de6c76 f2847a0ddc9e9&search_in=posts&result_type=posts and http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=28278 4&highlight=game+producer

Because most Linux users own game consoles

[WillAffleckUW]

PCs are a dead end for gaming, most gaming is shifting to consoles.

In actual measurements, you'll find console gaming sells far more units than PCs ever would.

Re:Because most Linux users own game consoles

[Anonymous Coward]

PCs are a dead end for gaming, most gaming is shifting to consoles.

Do you have a source for this claim that doesn't involve your ass?

In actual measurements, you'll find console gaming sells far more units than PCs ever would.

No, you won't

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[Spikeles]

Another contention I have is OpenGL itself. What happened? Direct3D simply has more advanced support for today's hardware capabilities. Every game I do play that has both rendering options, the Direct3D version has far superior visuals. One particular example I can recall is some transparant surfaces in FarCry. When switching to openGl, some of those surfaces lose their transparancy, turing into shiny, but opaqe surfaces. This is simply unacceptable in todays games. While I don't know if it is necessarily a result of the difference of capabilites between Direct3D and OpenGL, or simply lazy devs, it just makes you wonder.

Lazy devs. There is nothing you can do D3D that can't be done in OGL if your card supports the extensions. If you are seeing visual differences, it is either lazy game programmers or lazy graphics driver programmers.

I barely notice any differences when comparing D3D to OGL in games, Homeworld for example, had 0 visual artifacts that i noticed.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[Spikeles]

Using my Ubuntu DD as example, why the hell, if I'm listening to an mp3 via a media player while surfing the web and see a video on you tube I want to watch, does the sound not Just Work? I have to close the player freeing the sound resource, restart the browser, and then revisit the page. What a pain. How the hell is busted architecture supposed to support all the layers of sound and music in a game?

That is not busted ass architecture. One of your misbehaving apps has acquired direct exclusive control over the sound card without using the proper sound libraries, or tried to get exclusive control when your sound library had the access. If all the programs used the same sound library it wouldn't be a problem. Same thing can happen on windows if you request it when you set up the DirectSound interface. Same deal with input, ever wondered why when you alt-tab from some games and the mouse pointer doesn't come back? It's because they requests exclusive control, and no other apps can use the mouse while the game has it. Most games are friendly and release it when they detect an alt-tab.

Why didn't anybody tell me?

[Carnildo]

Gaming sucks on Linux? Why didn't anybody tell me? I'm just finishing up Final Fantasy V, and was thinking of trying Secret of Monkey Isle next. If I'd known that it sucks, I would have installed Windows to run the emulators on.

Re:Why didn't anybody tell me?

[MSFanBoi]

Didn't anyone tell you the 90's ended quite a few years ago?

Re:Why didn't anybody tell me?

[Carnildo]

So? Doesn't mean the games aren't still good.

For good reason

[LunarCrisis]

Why bother to torture yourself with the headaches presented by Linux gaming? Why should you continually not have the games you want to play? Why settle for half-assed solutions that might or might not run the games you crave so desperately?"

Because my principles are more important to me than the one or two hours it takes to get WoW / Diablo 2 working in wine. Actually, when you take into account the time it takes to reboot, along with the penalty in convenience (can't simply minimize and use linux apps, or listen to my playlists in xmms while playing), I probably save time doing it this way.

Besides, there are good games that install/work perfectly in linux, UT 2004 being one of them. Heck, on linux you don't even need to use the play disk. (Disclaimer: I don't actually know that it is used in windows, but I never needed it, not even during install, and I doubt they would have bothered printing an extra CD for no purpose)

Since good FOSS games are hard to come by, I'd just like to plug ABA Games, they make some real gems. Specifically, if you are at all into space shooters, give rRootage (linux binary here) a try, it's one of my most-often played games, even in the presence of giants like WoW.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[BrokenHalo]

I've been using ReiserFS on almost all partitions on several machines with no hiccups at all, even where I *know* the drive is marginally dodgy. (The "almost" refers to the fact that I use separate boot partitions mounted read-only - so no journalling, so they get ext2.)

Then explain Doom, Quake, and Unreal

[r_jensen11]

Or do we not have these games because the libraries change too quickly?

I'm sorry, but I do believe that I can still play Quake3 with an up-to-date Gentoo system.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[Blakey Rat]

This points out another problem with Linux, although not one exclusively related to games. Finger-pointing.

Ok, so it's not Linux that's flawed, it's one particular program. But what about Ubuntu for adding that program to its package manager despite being obviously buggy? Point the finger that way!

Oh, your wireless card doesn't work in Ubuntu? Well, try SuSE! Now your modem doesn't work? Try Fedora! Now your USB drive isn't auto-mounting? Try Ubuntu! ... oh wait.

Look, people don't care who's at fault, they just know there's a problem and it has to be fixed. Apple and Microsoft don't engage in finger-pointing, they just FIX THE PROBLEMS. This is what the open source community needs to do.

Why the hell are there different sound libraries in the first place? Why would anybody need more than one?

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[Blakey Rat]

Uh, that's pretty much his entire point. Why would you want to use Linux game development tools, all 9 of them, learn different APIs and interfaces for every single one, and just cross your fingers and hope they all happen to work together when you could use just a single package that you *know* all works together, and you *know that once you've learned one part of it, you've learned most of it?

Tranquility through giving up

[smchris]

I just gave up. Actually, I gave up after Quake I on OS/2 and inherited the attitude with linux.

Which isn't to say I don't have any games. (And I consider sims games.)

Sure, TORCS is so 1990 in some ways with better graphics but it _is_ entertaining. Neverball, shishen-sho and solitaire get some of my time.

What I really think should get more credit is FlightGear. I know the graphics are hardly competitive but they get a lot right. And where are you going to get more slavish simulation? The night sky is a planetarium with perceived magnitudes. You get local airport weather with multiple strata. People are populating their cities with buildings. You can buzz cows in the pasture.

I disagree

[petrus4]

The gaming scenario in Linux has never been better.

No, Linux still isn't at the point where any and all games that run in Windows will run in it...but installing WoW with Wine is trivial if you install Wine via something like apt-get. Neverwinter Nights Warcraft 3, Diablo 2, Starcraft, the original Half Life, Unreal Tournament, UT2k3, the Quakes, SimCity 4 and Steam are also possible. Some of these even have native Linux ports/installers.

For most people these days, WoW is also pretty much all they need anywayz...it also runs in FreeBSD with the Linux XF86-libs package.

Granted, with the exception of WoW, none of the above games are very contemporary...but as the trolls Zonk regularly links to point out, there aren't really any games worth playing being released at the moment anywayz.

So don't pay trolls such as this one any mind...go to , and look up your favourite PC game. 98% of the time, you'll find that with a minimal amount of mental elbow grease, you'll be able to play it under Linux just fine...and that usually translates by extension to FreeBSD as well.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[Spikeles]

Look, people don't care who's at fault, they just know there's a problem and it has to be fixed. Apple and Microsoft don't engage in finger-pointing, they just FIX THE PROBLEMS. This is what the open source community needs to do.

There does need to be some degree of "finger pointing" otherwise no-one will take responsibility for the problem. Once you determine where the problem lies you can take steps to fix it. The problem with "finger pointing" is that usually it involves one group saying "it's your problem", and the other group saying "no, it's yours", and in the end the problem never gets fixed. Apple and Microsoft don't have this issue because as soon as the problem is identified it's given the correct department to fix. It just highlights a major problem in open-source software, where most developers think they are GOD and are never wrong. Remember most applications are developed for FREE, without any reimbursement at all, so i can see why some developers would not want to implement that cool new feature.

Why the hell are there different sound libraries in the first place? Why would anybody need more than one?

Because people and developers like choice. GNOME has gstreamer, KDE has aRTS, then there is xine-lib, ALSA, OSS(deprecated), OpenAL, etc, no-one can decide what to use as a common ground. Then there are older legacy apps that attempt to directly access /dev/sound, which is probably what happened the original problem with the browser. The MP3 App ( amarok for example) might use xine-lib to access the sound card, xine-lib locks the device, and the browser ( which the programmers never thought to add the ability to use xine-lib ) tries to directly access the sound card and fails because it's locked. Or maybe the browser tries to use the default KDE aRTS which again would conflict with xine-lib. Because Linux is all about "choice", it sometimes provides too many choices. They have been trying to rectify this by including ALSA(another sound library) built into the kernel, but there are still lots of legacy apps out there.

That unfortunately is the biggest drawcard of DirectX. You write an application in DirectX and you pretty much guarantee that it will run on a host of different Windows configurations ( barring dodgy drivers ) because every application uses DirectX, so they all play nice. DirectX manages the resources and tries to make sure the system works.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[_iris]

pygame is much, much easier for a newb to "just jump right in to creating games" than DX is.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

yours is "filthy ass faggot". just keep sucking those dicks, dirty fucking homosexual.

Fuck Wine

[Sparr0]

Wine is cool occasionally for a few old games, but if you really want to support linux gaming then only play linux games. More and more great games are linux native these days. Support the companies that make them, give them your feedback and your money.

Existing "modern" (read: not something a windows gamer would call "crappy linux game") games that I play on native linux clients every week:
Neverwinter Nights
UT 2004
Quake 4 (and 3)
Doom 3
Savage
Enemy Territory
Medal of Honor

Upcoming awesome linux native games:
Savage 2
UT 2007
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars

The console wars are making companies put more work into making portable games, that can only help the number of linux ports.

Boo for bad support

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not that gaming sucks on Linux, its just that Linux is a terrible operating system. I've tried all the variants and when it didn't work or nothing was for it, I still had a Windows partition and went to it. The OS and its applications have a very cheap and amateurish feel to them.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[xtracto]

Oh yeah, thats the Linux culture. It just happened to me as I migrated my laptop from Windows XP to Ubuntu 6.06. Neither Wireless or sound worked (I had to install a PCMCIA wireless card... which is stupid). And the sound as great parent said is terribly bad. Neither ESD (ubuntu-gnome sounds system) nor arts (kde sound system) are worth a dime, they crash every 5 mintues, you cant, as the GP stated play sound with 2 applications at the same time (trying to use AMAROK + KOPETE for example, with BOTH using ALSA just cause an ARTS message saying "sound buffer overflow" and the processor goes crazy). ESD has similar behaviour.

Anyway, to stay ontopic. I have programmed both on SDL-OpenGL and DirecX. I preffer the way to do things in OpenGL, however as someone else posted, to program in DirectX is so cool because you have a complete SOLUTION. That buzzword has a lot of value (for me at least). You only install VisualC++ IDE and install DirectX package and there you go, ready to program. Whereas to setup a complete game development environment to SDL+OpenGL you have to compile and run yourself all the SDL support libraries (libsdlmixer, libsdimage, etc). Last time I tried setting up SDL on Windows (my laptop now runs Ubuntu only) I spent like 3 hours configuring and compiling everything. DevCpp devpaks were quite helpful but it has been discontinued for a long time.

So, as lots other programmers, we game developers want to develop games, and not to develop whatever library is supposed to be available.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[cptgrudge]

Dual booting is okay for games, but how about when you want to play music in the background? And all of your music is on your ext3, Reiser, or XFS file system?

Put your "playback often" media like music and video on a big disked media server in the basement? Add a Samba or NFS share? Just get an old box and a couple fast drives. RAID setup for backup is easy enough.

Does the author know someone at /. ?

[CeePhour]

How does this crap make Slashdot?
We've really thrown our journalistic integrity out the window with this one.

Other than three-quarter's a page worth of ads and useless linksoff to only god-knows-where per paragraph of actual text the article offered nothing more than some guys uninformed glance at Linux gaming. Something he doesn't seem to know anything about. It's almost as if he has just discovered Loki shut down and that Cedega doesn't work miracles this weekend.

Essentially this is nothing more than an ad for Crossover Office so Linux wannabes can play World of Warcraft and feel educated and smart (I'll spare the WoW players a cheap jab this time).

[article douchebag wrote:
The fact that World of Warcraft gave me an error message and then refused to accept the second install CD just irritated the hell out of me.]

For god's sakes the guy can't even mount a disc...

Again...
[article douchebag wrote:
Fortunately I had a copy of Mandriva 2007 with Cedega bundled. Even then though, installation of certain games didn't work properly.]

I don't even know where to begin with how asinine that statement is. The writer implies his distribution has something to do with Windows emulation?

As a matter of fact, the ONLY thing that isn't "just use Windows lololoz" and shows there may be a light behind this guys eyes is he gripe about Transgaming's Cedega download section. Sure, navigating through file names that have version numbers that go up incrementally as the software progresses can be very confusing when deciding what to download, but it's probably a safe bet to grab the highest numbered engine, and the highest numbered Cedega UI. It is messy, but based on the look of this website, this guy clearly does not understand what constitutes intuitive.

It's academic anyway. Let's use virtualization

[Anonymous Coward]

Just run WinXP under a Xen hypervisor, in the not-too-distant future.

This whole topic will become irrelevant before long, when we can run Windows for gaming under virtualization, alongside Linux and other O/S's for more serious stuff.

You may recall that Xen actually ran MS Windows initially, and is planning to do so again once VT/Pacifica becomes common, as the new hardware features in the CPUs allow full virtualization.

Although it's either/or Windows/Linux right now, in future Microsoft won't be able to demand exclusive use of your computer hardware. And that's the gaming under Linux problem solved.

OpenGL is not the same as DirectX.

[master_p]

OpenGL is for 3d graphics, DirectX is for 3d graphics, sound, input, networking and various other tasks.

There is not a single factor that contributes to this situation, there are many:

-Linux does not have a good set of libraries to program the games that covers modern gaming needs. Good means 'consistent' in this case. And please don't tell me about SDL, because it severely behind any modern gaming needs.

-Linux is fragmented. It is just not possible to know if a game could run in any distro.

-Linux has a small market share that does not justify the investment.

-Linux licensing schemes are a fear factor for commercial developers.

-Linux does not have hardware drivers for peripherals like controllers and others.

-Linux runs on non-80x86 machines, many of which are totally different platforms.

Re:OpenGL is not the same as DirectX.

[Anonymous Coward]

And please don't tell me about SDL, because it severely behind any modern gaming needs.

This sounds suspicious to me. However, I'm not a game developer, so I don't know what modern needs SDL and OpenAL can't fulfill. It doesn't seem to me that games have changed much in the input, sound, and networking departments since Q3A. I see the advances being made in graphics and physics, which would be handled by OpenGL and (if you aren't writing your own physics engine) another library like OGRE or ODE. On another platform, wouldn't you be using something like Havok2?

-Linux is fragmented. It is just not possible to know if a game could run in any distro.

Statically compiled games run in just about any distro. See the Loki catalog for examples of games that still install and run today.

-Linux licensing schemes are a fear factor for commercial developers.

This is a matter of education, and is not a technical limitation. There is very little to fear about the licenses used for Linux software, especially for game developers.

-Linux does not have hardware drivers for peripherals like controllers and others.

I believe you are woefully uninformed on this one. I'm having a hard time coming up with a peripheral other than a gamepad, joystick, wheel/pedals, or dance pad that would be required for gaming, and I think you'll find all of the above with Linux support. Especially if it's a gameport device; those are growing few, and Linux support for them has matured.

For USB devices, a good place to start would be the Linux USB Device Overview.

-Linux runs on non-80x86 machines, many of which are totally different platforms.

Why do you have to support all of the architectures supported by Linux to produce a Linux game? I can't think of a commercial Linux game that makes that claim. Games have system requirements. One system requirement for your game might be an x86 processor.

I don't think these are really obstacles to Linux game development.

thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

but i am happy with opensource gaming and can live without the uncreative commercial counterparts

nothing against being able to buy good games, but windows gaming is also broken (look at the guild 2, oblivion, gothic 3)

i dont need to dual boot to see a window game crash ^^

parent is a troll

[oliverthered]

I brought directx 9 graphics to Wine so I should know a little bit about the differences between Direct3d and OpenGL and the impact this has on gaming.

Though Direct3D (9.0) offers some features (Like custom texture formats, and some extra features in it's fixed function pipeline) that OpenGl doen't offer games just don't use them, and even if they did they could be implemented using shaders. Why do you think DirectX 10 has compleatly dropped with fixed function pipeline.

If DirectX 9.0 was so superior to OpenGl it would have been impossible for transgaming to write Cedega and others and myself to start to being DirectX 9 to wine.

DirectX 10 does offer a few new features but the main improvement is a stripped down API. It won't be long before OpenGL gets the extra features that are in DirectX 10 but I don't think it can compeate on the performance improvements DirectX 10s architecture gives.

That said, for 95% of games the performance improvements won't matter and for the other 5% of games I'm sure people could put up with a slight (5%) frame rate drop, and a year down the line the hardware will be so much better that you won't notice the difference.

Andhow, I believe SDI offers a lot of the additional DirectX features too.

Re:parent is a troll

[Bent Mind]

Reading most of the comments in this thread, I have to say that Linux's best bet for capturing Window's game programmers would be for OpenGL, OpenAL, and SDL to team up and release their stuff under one brand name. The comments concerning DirectX vs OpenGL seem to indicate that Window's programmers are easily confused by software from multiple sources.

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anybody still use EXT2/3 on Linux?

Are you serious?

According to this (and other) up to date articles http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/File_System_Prime r
ext3 is the most popular Linux file system

Have a look at the 'technical' table in this article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_d istributions
and you will see that ext2/3 is the default for about three-quarters of all major distros which have a default (i.e. ignoring those with no or unknown defaults)

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, then, there is a hole in FOSS world, in the shape of an abstraction layer (or, the horror!, various abstraction layers) that would guarantee to sort the mess out during own installation or, to allow for meantime updates, during game launching phase. Is DirectX API propirietary, is it legally possible to make a "DirectUX" that could hypothetically make Win games ported fast to Linux by relinking them with it?

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[BigZee]

Yep, that's the bit that anoyed me too. I don't want to have to reboot. When I play quake 4, I can have something running at a low priority in the background and it has no effect on gameplay. If I have to reboot to just play a game then I have to abandon the other things I'm doing as well. I suppose that I should also be able to afford several machines so that I can dedicate one to games playing too! This is clearly one thing that seprates these reviewers from the real world.

Claims of full support; implementation lagging

[Jamie Lokier]

For some definition of "full support". Let's see... I have Intel 945GM video in my laptop, and the latest Xorg drivers. (I have tried several experimental driver versions too).

Q: Does 3d acceleration work? A: Only on the laptop's internal screen. There is no 3d acceleration when using an external DVI screen - turning on acceleration causes video initialization to fail with an obscure should-never-happen error.

Q: Does dual display (laptop and external screen together) work? A: Only for some resolutions (i.e. not the actual size of the external TFT), and only with some driver versions and rather picky Xorg.conf settings (i.e. extremely flaky), and only with all hardware acceleration disabled and software cursor, and even when it works it's a most unpleasant and sometimes buggy hack (initializes whole video card twice; two driver instances both poking the same registers without synchronisation). The version I'm using at the moment (Ubuntu Edgy's "intel" driver) doesn't work with dual display, though it is supposed to. I'd use the other Intel driver ("i810") but it doesn't work on this laptop with a DVI external screen.

Q: Does simply displaying at a screen's native resolution work?! A: For modern TFT resolutions (mine are 1280x800 and 1680x1050): only with an experimental driver, or a BIOS hack (it temporarily modifies tables in the BIOS). Neither of these works with a laptop's internal and an external display simultaneously - you have to pick one when X starts, switching to the other requires X to be restarted, all applications closed etc.

Q: Does suspend work? A: No, after suspend-to-RAM, the screen is blank. (I've not tried suspend-to-disk because I use encrypted swap, and suspend-to-disk doesn't work with that.)

But to its credit, with the appropriate hacks and experimental drivers, displaying on one screen only with acceleration disabled and software cursor seems to be good... Not sure I'd call that "full support" though! I'm looking forward to it when it arrives. Intel have got the right idea, it's only implementation which is lacking now, and that appears to be outside Intel's control, being more of an under-resourced Xorg thing.

Re:Claims of full support; implementation lagging

[Lehk228]

by full support i meant it wasn't a crippled stripped down driver with noting but basic rendering support.

getting features to work reliably in all variants of linux will take some time but it will be much faster than reverse engineering a binary blob or an undocumented interface

Re:Claims of full support; implementation lagging

[Jamie Lokier]

Oh I agree, Intel's support is much better in principle.

However, I've seen so many people talk about Intel's great video support, and Intel's own press releases seem to imply it, that I felt I had to share my experience: it's far from great at the moment. It's not actually Intel's fault; the main problem seems to be limited resource for X driver development (which has good 3D support when it works, but really dubious hacks elsewhere), and 3rd party hardware manufacturers who make broken video BIOSes.

For me and many others, even basic non-accelerated rendering doesn't work out of the box. For example, I'd heard great things about Ubuntu and it was very disappointing that the installation process led to a black screen before it was finished, and after a bit of typing blind and a reboot, resulted in a working display but non-native resolution on the laptop.

From all accounts, ATI and Nvidia's drivers, although shamefully binary, do work quite well for most people. I'd guess their drivers are also full of dubious hacks, but people say they seem to work quite well.

This would be an example of nice in principle, but disappointing implementation so far. And, although in principle "much easier" to get it all working, in practice it could take many years, if the experience of my previous laptop is anything to go by.

Intel are to be applauded for their open source move. But that's not enough by itself to make good, or even usable-out-of-the-box drivers. I really hope they can follow through with actually fixing the code...

(Btw, it has nothing to do with different variants of Linux. X drivers are binary-compatible even between different OSes, for the same Xorg version and machine architecture. Motherboard hardware and video BIOS variations, that's where the compatibility trouble lies.)

-- Jamie

No thanks

[Yfrwlf]

I think I'll use a copy of Windows instead of paying the $200 or whatever to buy it, or I'll run games in my OS of choice by using Wine or the like, or I will just not play them and wait for companies to make Linux games. For all those who want there to be more Linux games around, they should do the same. Buying Windows games sends the wrong message, buying Linux games sends the right one, if you want games to be made for Linux. If Zonk, who seems to be a complete sellout, thinks we're all going to run out and buy Windows and Windows games because he tells us all to "give up in waiting for Linux games", he's a moron. That is exactly what you SHOULD NOT DO IF YOU WANT LINUX GAMES. Gee, Slashdot even has M$ ads now, I wonder if Slashdot has been a target for their marketing. Maybe, maybe not, but this article sure doesn't help anything. It's good to point out facts, but the fact is I'm waiting for UT2007 to come out for Linux so I can run to the store, and that's going to help send these hopefully soon-to-be old-world game devo companies the message they want to hear, and in return the message Linux users want to hear: More games coming to Linux.

Moo:So where does all of this leave Linux gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

People don't feel good unless they speed a massive ammount of money on something.

You don't necessarily need to upgrade everytime a new library comes out. That type of thinking is from the Microsoft faction. Think like the NASA faction. Upgrade only if you have the time to invest in learning what changes took place. Know your limitations and how to strengthen your weaknesses. Master what you already have.

A warrior that knows one weapon well will defeat a warrior that knows several without mastery.

No DirectX

[Dog-Cow]

I think the biggest draw to Windows is DirectX. It provides code for handling input devices, display, sound and networking. It hides minor differences in hardware, and will emulate as much as possible so that developers can code to a sort of reference platflorm. If gives what is probably the closest thing to a console in terms of uniformity.

The only major game producers that I know of that create popular games for multiple platforms are companies that were doing games before DirectX was introduced. Granted, the only two I know of are Id and Blizzard.

Re:It's academic anyway. Let's use virtualization

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope your right... I don't mind having a license of Windows for "legacy" reasons, but having to dedicate hardware (or dual boot) is a royal pita.

mame

[Ignatius Killfile]

Mame, anyone? perhaps its my age and addicition to emulators, just dusting off my Dreamcast now...

Re:Can't be bothered?

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of developer (in any software field) can't be bothered to take a day to set up his or her development environment? Are you trying to write a game *tonight*? 3 hours is nothing compared to the actual design and coding time you'll be spending on the project.

You can install VisualC++ and DirectX, or you can install the IDE of your choice and OpenGL/SDL plus SDL add-ons.

And, when you're done, you can ship your code over to an OSX box, fix it up a bit, and compile yourself a copy for a starving Mac gamer.

Re:so, it sucks being able to play my favorite gam

[jrshabadoo]

Agreed, Warcraft 3 runs with less crashes under Linux then XP, albeit slightly slower when there's huge poly counts on the screen.

j

Re:its harder to know what is bad

[Rakarra]

with DX, any idiot can sit down and get something working pretty quick using included example programs etc. less BS to wade through. you tell your user 'get DX version abc, windows XP'

Uhh.. except they don't. Most vendors still have to support Windows 98/Me. XP-only stuff is becoming more common, but there's still a lot of legacy support. At least DirectX is easy to upgrade on every system.

Unk!

[sad_]

Why go to the trouble of maintaining a windows installation, just to play freaking games?!
just buy a console and play all the recent games you want hassle free.

And most linux people are probably happy with the current state of affairs, for every genre there is at least one decent game available, other then that we also have mame and a boatload of other emulators at our disposal.

Re:Can't be bothered?

[neelm]

AC, you've missed the point 100%

It's not about the developer's setup - it's about the work involved. DirectX provides a complete gaming platform from which to work with. There is nothing in open source than compares to this. Network, sound, 3d graphics, input devices - all have DirectX methods, all without worrying about the end user's setup. Even if the user has a DirectX issue (bad driver), they have professional support services (nvida, microsoft) they can turn to and not cost the developer money in support not related to the game code. Linux may offer a mailing list that you can be told how dumb you are for not knowing to close your mediaplayer before launching the browser if you want to hear web page sounds.

Linux is a game, no need for other games.

[Anonymous Coward]

After switching to LInux long time ago, I missed games... But, then I just switched to scripting and UI design things to pass the time. Now, I don't even install the kde-games package; I know there are much more fun and more productive activities I can do.

So, here it is: Linux doesn't attract games because Linux IS the game, like Sims, or SimCity. You just build, and create, and chat with peers.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[alucardX]

"In that respect, Linux really needs to get its shit together." "Linux" isn't a company, person or being it's a kernel. In what respect does it need to get it's shit together? If you don't like the way one distro does things quit bitchin and customize it or make your own. "It is such a pain in the ass, the way they go out of their way, to make you go out of your way, just to get your pc to do what you want.." They refers to who? RedHat? Slacwkare? Linus? I'm sorry if you don't understand the way a GNU/Linux system is setup and the difference between a Kernel and an OS but don't flip out about it being someone else's problem. I also find it funny that you are okay with all the hell Microsoft puts you through that is completely out of your control but you have a problem with learning to configure and admin your own GNU/Linux system that IS in your control. . .I'm going to be even more harsh here but maybe you should just stick with Windows and be oblivious to anything that has to do with Linux if you're going to take that attitude with things. "Someone unwilling to change has already reached their full potential".

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ClamIAm]

So the entirety of DirectX is significantly easier to learn, and the APIs and interfaces are all consistent and work flawlessly? And it's Free and cross-platform?

Also, good job counting all the libraries I listed. PROTIP: you only need (at most) one from each category.

FUUUUDDDD

[Intangion]

this is one big bullshit article
i am a linux gamer, i play a ton of games on linux, even games not officially supported by game developers

mostly i play World of Warcraft thru cedega 100% issue free
i also play Civ3 and Civ4, both run fine (civ4 is slow though, on both windows and linux) thru cedega
i also play SimCity (whatever the newest one was, 4?) it runs fine (in software mode) thru cedega

i can even run crap tacular voip software like vent on wine for talking to guildmates on wow

steam games also all work on linux
not EVERY game does, but most people dont run out to buy EVERY game anyway

if game developers dont support linux, people wont be able to switch
if people arent going to switch cause they want to play games, the developers wont worry about linux support..
its a catch 22

personally im happy with the games i play, and happy with linux and am even know trying to make sure i can support linux with an indy game im working on (although its a little harder since its a road less traveled)

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[OzPhIsH]

God you're a fucking moron. You want to argue semantics? You know exactly what I mean when I say simply say "Linux" in the context of making things easier for game developers. When people say "Windows needs improvements" do you jump down their backs, and explain that Windows is just an OS, and really we should be talking about Microsoft making improvements to Windows as they are the ones responsible for the development? God, I hope not, as most people understand that implicit relationship. Next time, shall I say "Linux needs to have had it's shit gotten together?" Will that help clarify for your anal retentive perspective? Anyone with a working brain usually can figure out that saying "Linux" in most discussions generally refers to the whole GNU/Linux package. Look at the article title "Why Gaming Sucks on Linux." ZOMG Linux is a just a kernel! They should say GNU/Linux. Why don't you just go RMS and cry in his beard about it.. And how often do you see the phrase "Linux kernel?" Do you get your panties in a wad and point out that this is a redundancy?

As for the "It is such a pain in the ass, the way they go out of their way, to make you go out of your way, just to get your pc to do what you want.." comment, if you had any sort of comprehensive reading skills whatsoever, you'd have realized that this statement WAS ABOUT MICROSOFT WINDOWS and not Linux. So, I don't know really WHAT the point of your reply was, but so certainly accomplished the goal of looking like a moron with a GNU/Stick up your ass.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[OzPhIsH]

The parent I replied to made that comparison. One of my whole points was that DirectX is MORE than just Direct3D, and can't just be compared to OpenGL, as it streamlines a lot more things for developers.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ClamIAm]

[DirectX] streamlines a lot more things for developers.

Proof? Just because Directx has a bunch of stuff under its banner does not mean that it makes anything easier. Also, I'm looking forward to your comparison of Directx and the other stuff I listed.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ardor]

Obviously you are not experienced in hardware 3D graphics programming. It is at times MUCH harder to accomplish the same effect in OpenGL than in D3D. Before 2005, there wasnt even a decent render-to-texture extension available, just pbuffers (and they suck hard). D3D had them since 1998. Shaders? Before GLSL was finally out, there were about 6 vendor-specific ones. Do you really believe that game developers have the TIME to implement and test so many code paths? Carmack has the luxury of spending time with this, but most other game developers don't. Resources for OGL are scattered across the net; in D3D, you have one big, detailed programmers guide and reference, along with over 30 examples covering a lot of state-of-the-art effects. In D3D, I have examples for PRT, instancing, subsurface scattering, motion blur etc. Where is the kickass OpenGL SDK offering me this? NeHe covers just the basics. 99% of all OpenGL sites recycle the basics over and over. Its extremely hard to write a state-of-the-art engine with OGL, it is much easier with D3D. OpenGL 3.0 is likely to change this, but until then, we have to fiddle with a severe lack of resources and many fallbacks for different OpenGL architectures.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ardor]

So the entirety of DirectX is significantly easier to learn, and the APIs and interfaces are all consistent and work flawlessly?

Yes. MUCH easier than OpenGL for advanced effects (like ambient occlusion). DirectInput kicks ass; where is the Linux equivalent? OIS is the next best thing, covers about 1/4th of DI's functionality, and is hard to discover (I stumbled upon it by accident). And while DirectShow is a PITA, it is still easier to use than some Linux video playback library (libtheora means a LOT of work, libavcodec is just a thing from another world, Gstreamer needs the correct codecs and lacks a good documentation).

And it's Free and cross-platform?

This is absolutely IRRELEVANT for game development. Game development is about MONEY. AAA games need a system that does not stand in the way and takes too much time to learn - because time is money. "Free" has absolutely zero relevance there. If a kit costs $1000, but cuts development time to 1/3rd, it will be bought by the companies. This is why game developers usually choose FMOD over OpenAL or Audiere (aside from the fact that FMOD 4 has so many features the other two don't even remotely provide). Cross-Platform is irrelevant for AAA games as well; AAA means tons of effects. Porting it to the console absolutely requires additional work. You do NOT want the extra overhead from the cross-platform layer on a PS2, for example.

Also, good job counting all the libraries I listed. PROTIP: you only need (at most) one from each category.

Most have little to no documentation, are not thoroughly tested in non-Unix environments, have no VisualC workspaces (don't even think of using autotools in Windows), have APIs with exactly zero similarities, and at best a few samples. Yeah.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ardor]

Why would anyone port something to Linux? There is no market there. "Cross-platform" means "consoles & Windows" for game developers. Oh, and your "relinking" is not as simple as you think. You have to rebuild the entire project.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ClamIAm]

Thanks for joining the conversation so late. I suggest reading all the posts up to this point, as most of your reply has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Thanks.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ardor]

Of course it does. You propose usage of multiple libraries as a pendant to the DirectX SDK, and I commented your points about it. Now I suggest YOU read my points and give me an actual reply. So far you didn't prove anything wrong.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[Spikeles]

it is at times MUCH harder to accomplish the same effect in OpenGL than in D3D.

Ok, so what's your point? My original point was that whatever can be done in D3D can be done in OpenGL. Sure there are time and money issues which you have to balance with all your other budgetary constraints.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ardor]

Sure there are time and money issues which you have to balance with all your other budgetary constraints.

Exactly. The result is almost always: "use D3D". Less time-consuming, less demanding -> costs less -> most companies choose D3D, with OpenGL becoming a rather exotic option.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[OzPhIsH]

Dude, give up the crack! My entire statement: "One of my whole points was that DirectX is MORE than just Direct3D, and can't just be compared to OpenGL, as it streamlines a lot more things for developers." Your dimwitted reply: "Proof? Just because Directx has a bunch of stuff under its banner does not mean that it makes anything easier." DirectX streamlines more for devs than OpenGL. Duh. OpenGL is just graphics. DirectX is graphics, sound, networking, etc. Get it? DirectX does MORE than JUST OpenGL, so it ISN'T A GOOD COMPARISON! A good comparison would be with all the other things thrown in. That is what I was saying in the first place.. And in my own personal experience, one unified package for complete 3d multimedia application development, is easier to work with than several disjoint ones. You can't necessarily PROVE "easier" because that is an OPINION that will vary from person to person. But it is a FACT that the entire DirectX package handles more than JUST OpenGL. Please work on your reading comprehension mmmkay?

Obscure Architectures

[Anonymous Coward]

Emulation will never be able to squeeze out the same power, it is a sad waste of cpu. Would it be easier to port console games to linux; one obscure architecture to another? many of the popular games come out on console's as well and modern console's are able to do many of the things computer games can like network gaming...

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ClamIAm]

Your "comments" consisted of opinion, unsourced assertions, and a very dubious argument about what it takes to develop a game in the "real world". Once again, nothing related to what I was talking about.

Re:OpenGL can't compare to COMPLETE DirectX packag

[ClamIAm]

If it's such a bad comparison, why do you keep making it, when my replies clearly are directed toward a different aspect of your Escher-esque logic?

Re:Dual boot is okay, but can Windows read linux F

[julietmikealpha]

Network hard disk or on some other machine.

gaming on linux or macos...

[irgendwo]

this is just a facet of the whole issue with cross-platform software... develop cross platform software.. and you don't have platform related issues... eof

Personal anecdotes

[scott_karana]

The reasons gaming sucks on Linux?
1) X.org and XFree86 are slow.
2) Multimedia hardware changes faster than Linux developers can clean-room reverse engineer drivers for it
3) Linux software advances faster than companies can port binary-blob drivers, if they even do
4) Lack of commercial games, and thus lack of investment potential for any other games: see also, Macintosh
5) Lots of games are designed for x86, or at least only tested on Intel hardware; have fun, SPARC, PowerPC, Alpha, ARM, MIPS, and Itanium!

Get a Playstation then?

[Terminus32]

Why not buy a console for all of your gaming needs instead then? I mostly stick to MUDs/Nethack for my Linux gaming & save my PS2 for all the fast-paced 3D action...although I do occasionally boot back into Windows to have a blast in Unreal Tournament.

Java!

[wft_rtfa]

People just need to start writing games in Java that way everyone is happy. They just have to scale back the graphics... and the sound... who cares about that stuff anyways?