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Ballmer Says Linux "Infringes Our Intellectual Property"

Stony Stevenson writes "In comments confirming the open-source community's suspicions, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer Thursday declared his belief that the Linux operating system infringes on Microsoft's intellectual property." From the ComputerWorld article: "In a question-and-answer session after his keynote speech at the Professional Association for SQL Server (PASS) conference in Seattle, Ballmer said Microsoft was motivated to sign a deal with SUSE Linux distributor Novell earlier this month because Linux 'uses our intellectual property' and Microsoft wanted to 'get the appropriate economic return for our shareholders from our innovation.'" His exact wording is available at the Seattle Intelligencer, which has a transcript of the interview. Groklaw had an article up Wednesday giving some perspective on the Novell/Microsoft deal. Guess we'll have something to talk about in 2007, huh?

149 of 820 comments (clear)

  1. Alright, own up by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Funny

    Who merged the Linux Genuine Advantage code into the tree?
    Come on, speak up - I know it was one of you.

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:Alright, own up by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sorry. That was me. I also added the module that executes arbitrary code downloaded by a network application, and the code that requires root access for trivial applications. Did I do something wrong?

    2. Re:Alright, own up by sfled · · Score: 5, Funny

      Steve Ballmer
      Microsoft Corp.
      Redmond, WA

      Dear Mr. Ballmer,

      I am forwarding my old SuSE 8.1 Pro CDs & DVD to you, along with appropriate instruction on where you can put them (including facilitation of the process with a sharpened poker.)

      Regards,

      Sfled

      --
      I'm not really a web designer, I just play one on the Internet.
    3. Re:Alright, own up by mwilliamson · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...not if you work for microsoft...pretty standard, really.

    4. Re:Alright, own up by concept10 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Alright, enough joking. Enough of the Balmer, chair and DRM jokes. It's time for industry leaders such as IBM, Intel and other supporters of F/OSS to step up to the plate and take action against these claims. Also, I haven't heard nothing from the likes of Linus and RMS. Where are they hiding?

    5. Re:Alright, own up by canuck57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who merged the Linux Genuine Advantage code into the tree? Come on, speak up - I know it was one of you.

      Funny, but the wrong thing to ask.

      The right thing to ask is how much open and public domain source made it to Windows? Was not Linux preemptive multitasking before Windows, POP3, SMTP/sendmail, DNS/BIND, Kerberos, telnet, ftp, http, ssl, TCP/IP itself, and probably more. At least in concept everything in Windows even windows itself is borrowed from other peoples works. Windows itself is an extrapolation of other people's prior works at best.

    6. Re:Alright, own up by AceCaseOR · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IBM's probably holding off until it's finished decapitating SCO, putting holy wafer in its mouth, a stake in its heart, and then burying it at a crossroads. After all, Microsoft is an opponent you want to give your full attention. In the mean time I'm cuing up "Ride of The Valkyries" (as there isn't really a "Ride of the Nazgul" track on the soundtracks to any of the LotR soundtracks) to play once IBM decides to take the fight to Microsoft.

      --
      Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
    7. Re:Alright, own up by M1FCJ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Almost all of that is either open standards or outright BSD implementation and last time I looked, MS honoured the BSD licence.

    8. Re:Alright, own up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ah, but those decent human beings didn't patent their work. And in this world, the validity of the patent only matters if the one being sued has enough money to hold out for a non-speedy civil trial for 2-5 years while the prosecutor stalls, trying to bleed the smaller company dry on law costs.

    9. Re:Alright, own up by diamondsw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Doesn't a lot of the networking code mentioned come from BSD, which is MIT-licensed? Microsoft would be completely free to use that if they wanted.

      Another reason to prefer the MIT license to the GPL - a rising tide raises ALL ships. And I don't see BSD dying (despite Netcraft) due to lack of contributions and effort.

      --
      I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
    10. Re:Alright, own up by l4m3z0r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Was not Linux preemptive multitasking before Windows, POP3, SMTP/sendmail, DNS/BIND, Kerberos, telnet, ftp, http, ssl, TCP/IP itself, and probably more.

      Are you seriously suggesting that Linux is the originator of all these technologies? or is that just the implication of your words without it being your intent?

      Furthermore what does that matter, some people gave their code away with the intent that companies use it how they see fit. So don't go suggesting this is wrong or bad or in any way hypocritical of any company that protects its own IP while using the IP of others who freely give it away.

    11. Re:Alright, own up by profplump · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, if it's from BSD it probably uses the BSD license not the MIT license. But other than the East coast vs. West coast mismatch you are correct.

    12. Re:Alright, own up by gfxguy · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Are you seriously suggesting that Linux is the originator of all these technologies?

      No, he's suggesting that if Linux had these before Windows, then Linux can't be violating any MS IP (at least W.R.T. the things he mentioned).
      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    13. Re:Alright, own up by Samedi · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are terribly confused: multi-threading and pre-emptive multitasking aren't the same thing. Linux has had pre-emptive multitasking from the beginning - Linus wrote it to take advantage of the i386 hardware that had just come out.

    14. Re:Alright, own up by LordNimon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, but it wasn't kernel-level threading until a couple years ago. OS/2 had kernel-level threading back in 1987.

      --
      And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
      To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    15. Re:Alright, own up by diamondsw · · Score: 3, Funny

      Dammit - more coffee before I post. :)

      --
      I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
    16. Re:Alright, own up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's actually a good point although maybe in another way; Novell removed itself for 5-6 years from participating/contributing to a counterstrike of suits against MS. See, in many ways, with their pseudo-olive branch, MS is trying to reduce their liability. They figure they can take out the major players, then the remainder cannot consolidate their finances to defend against MS.

      Even ignoring IBM and Red Hat and the like, we could take it to MS instead. Target their IP and take them to court, destruct their patent portfolio little by little.

      If you have millions of Linux users who donate $10-100 each because they are pissed off, that's a decent sized war chest (larger than SCO took up with IBM, even though SCO lost, they caused a lot of FUD) and a LOT of litigation to contend with.

      Worse for MS, it wouldn't have to be centralized; you could simply fund other patent holders individually and go after MS. An 800lb. gorilla can be taken down by swarms upon swarms of wasps, or at least made paranoid enough to freak out whenever it hears a buzzing sound.

    17. Re:Alright, own up by Guy+Harris · · Score: 3, Insightful
      No, he's suggesting that if Linux had these before Windows, then Linux can't be violating any MS IP (at least W.R.T. the things he mentioned).

      That parenthetical note is key here. Linux didn't have an SMB server before Microsoft did; no, Samba isn't part of the Linux kernel, but it is part of a lot of Linux distributions (as well as being used on other UN*X OSes), and Microsoft do have a licensing process for SMB and various protocols that run atop it, so that might be what Ballmer was referring to.

    18. Re:Alright, own up by indifferent+children · · Score: 3, Interesting
      if its good, then it must be slow

      In the "Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two." quote, the 'Good' refers to the software (including its speed), the 'Fast' and 'Cheap' refer to the development process. You can have it fast by hiring lots and lots of really good developers (not cheap). You can have it pretty cheap by hiring one or two really good developers and giving them a many-year deadline (not fast). Or you can have a piece of crap software by January for a pretty cheap development price (Vista).

      Linux is good, but the development process wasn't very cheap (thousands of developers, hundreds of thousands of man-hours), or very fast (it took what, seven years (1998) before Linux was ready for heavy use as a business-class server OS).

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    19. Re:Alright, own up by stoanhart · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While this approach isn't what the FOSS community would like, it at least provides a possible method of closed and open sourced software to coexist. Take drivers for example. Since the linux kernel will never have a stable internal API, it becomes impossible for a closed-source vendor to simply write a driver and then leave it at that, like in Windows. The vendor must continue to update the driver basically forever, as the internal structure of the kernel continues to change. Using the intel open-source-kernel-module-communicating-with-binar y-blob method allows the vendor to basically stabalize a small part of the kernel, since it will continue to be updated by the FOSS community as the kernel evolves. Development on the binary blob can be discontinued, and it will still work years down the line. It's not perfect, but at least it's a solution.

    20. Re:Alright, own up by killjoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The FSF has come out and said that they will tweak the GPL3 to make sure it covers stuff like this. Linus has been silent. He doesn't care about these things and he is openly hostile to the FSF and the GPL3. If he does ever speak on the issue I suspect he won't have any problems with it.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    21. Re:Alright, own up by ultranova · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not on this I'm not and I specifically noted that there was a difference between preemption and multi-threading. You should so some research on these subjects and here is one link to help you learn when Linux got preemption:

      The post you referred to said that the kernel got pre-emption; that is, the patch it discusses allows a process to be pre-empted (task switched) in the middle of a system call. This is not the same as pre-emptive multitasking (which Linux has had from the beginning), which means that programs are task-switched by the kernel without them having to do anything to help (as opposed to cooperative multitasking, where a program is responsible to returning control to the kernel every now and then).

      As a side note, when under load even a Linux kernel with in-kernel pre-emption disabled feels more responsive than Windows XP.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    22. Re:Alright, own up by DevoPhl · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I think this all nothing more than carefully placed FUD. It comes a couple of days after Red Hat thumbed its nose at Microsoft for not caving in to its demands of pay MS money for the use of Linux or MS will sue it for copyright and patent infringement. This is SCO all over again and I can't help but believe IBM and others won't step up again to fight this.

      Also, keep in mind that Microsoft reinvented itself back in the early 90s. MS wanted a product line that would win in the desktop AND the server markets. It crafted the desktop off of what Apple had done and it wan't to use the leverage they'd get from the desktop to win over the server market as well. The only way to do that was to create a propriety system from the ground up. The OS design was an "anything but Unix" design. It wanted to make sure no other system could talk to Windows and no Windows desktop could talk to anything other than another Windows computer. It developed its own networking protocol, its own file sharing protocols, its own Windows API. The idea was if you have a Windows desktop, it could only talk to a Windows server and that was how MS was going to win over the server market as well.

      But an interesting thing happened on the way to total market dominance... There was the Internet and the WWW. Remember, Microsoft didn't originally support TCP/IP but was forced to when the Internet became widely popular in the mid 90s. There was the web browser which allow people to run applications on Unix servers and have the output displayed on their desktop screens. And worse of all, there was reverse engineering. Oh wow, the very tactic Microsoft used to become powerful in the first place was being used against it to chip away at its dominance.

      Now that everyone has figured out how to get Windows computers to interact with non-Windows computers, Microsoft is feeling the pinch. Its losing the server market as the Linux market is a more efficient and more cost effective platform to put a server application on. Its losing the desktop market as low cost applications are replacing the big cash cows like Microsoft Office.

      So about the time we're feeling comfortable about how everything is one big happy family, Microsoft is going to throw a monkey wrench into all of this. Vista appears to be a BIG blow to interoperability as MS vows to reinforce its proprietary dominance. A new set of protocols and a new DRM layer will make applications tougher to run and data harder to use. Now, Microsoft is going to the next level... using its near monopoly status and huge cash coffers to shut down its competition. If Vista is a failure, Microsoft could very well wither away. It's betting its future on Vista and its new line of products wrapped around Vista. It's betting Vista will bring back the Microsoft only universe. But if MS thinks Vista is going to be a slam dunk winner, why is it bothering to put out all this propaganda about Linux. Maybe its covering all the bases in that by forcing the hand of Linux and FOSS, it will convince users that the risks of using OSS are too high and they will run back to proprietary Microsoft.

      Its amazing how this has flipped 180 degrees. Twenty five years ago, Microsoft was using DOS and Basic to allow people to develop software to get out from underneath the proprietary world of the large mainframes of IBM, Dec and others. Now, Linux, supported by IBM and others is offering FOSS to allow people to get out from underneath the proprietary world of Microsoft.

    23. Re:Alright, own up by SEE · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Though Windows programs were cooperatively multitasked from Windows 1.0 until '95, starting with Windows/386 2.1, Windows did pre-emptively multitask DOS applications in 386 Enhanced Mode, exploiting the virtual 8086 mode of 386-class processors.

    24. Re:Alright, own up by repvik · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ah, the beauty of reverse engineering. Or the "french cafe" technique: http://www.samba.org/ftp/tridge/misc/french_cafe.t xt

    25. Re:Alright, own up by Monsuco · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Also, I haven't heard nothing from the likes of Linus and RMS. Where are they hiding?
      Linus is famous for his passive approch to linux's competitors (remember how he said he saw no reason to trash MS for the halloween docs?)

      As for IBM, Intel, HP, AMD, Apple, and the others, they hate the high cost XP forces them to charge, but they dont want to risk loosing deals.

  2. Samba by Ice+Wewe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This coming from the guy that's requiring SMB2 in Vista so that people using Samba on Linux server's can't use them for file storage.

    1. Re:Samba by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I know it wasn't the best, but I happen to like Super Mario Brothers 2. ...what?

    2. Re:Samba by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

      So Microsoft is infringing on Nintendo's intellectual property? I think a certain chair-thrower is going to lose his video game priviliges.

    3. Re:Samba by udderly · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Is it just me or does it sound like MS is going to charge a per seat charge for some enhanced ability to connect from a Windows machine to Linux servers? Or is it just straight blackmail for exemption for future litigation? Or both? I can't tell.

    4. Re:Samba by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't you think that's what this is about? I mean, Gates knows and respects unix; and they know it predates Windows and does not infringe on Microsoft intellectual property. The Linux kernel itself is almost certainly not infringing on anything of Microsoft's at all. I'm guessing that Microsoft can only be referring to projects like Samba and Mono.

      Both projects are basically reverse engineering of Microsoft protocols or APIs with the goal of interopability, or cross-platform deployment. I think reverse engineering is perfectly legitimate. It's been supported by the courts before.

      Listen to what Ballmer is saying: "Therefore, our job has got to be to help our customers get interoperability. And, of course, all vendors secretly are wondering when they do interoperability, did I do something that's going to help me win more of their customers, or something that's going to help them win more of my own customers."

      The other Microsoft related headline is that Europe is trying to force Microsoft to share information about Windows protocols with open-source projects like Samba, to allow and improve interoperability with other operating systems. Microsoft's initial response was to only offer that information to other businesses at a high price. Europe persisted, and Microsoft has adopted this new strategy; still insisting they be paid for compliance with government regulation.

    5. Re:Samba by Jason+Earl · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, Microsoft's plan is even stupider than that. Microsoft wants to charge a per seat license for Linux users, but they aren't really offering enhanced interoperability. Novell and Red Hat are both going to include the same software. It's not like Novell is going to have its own version of Samba, for instance. The primary difference is that Novell customers are going to be able to "sleep easy" because Novell is paying Microsoft so that Microsoft won't sue Novell's Linux customers.

      Microsoft isn't going to sue Red Hat's customers either, but that's only because suing Red Hat customers would be ridiculously foolish. At its heart the real issue is that Microsoft has such a poor relationship with its customers that many customers are worried that Microsoft will drag them into patent court. These customers are willing to pay money, not for any sort of patent license, but for a short term commitment from Microsoft that they won't be sued.

      Next thing you know Microsoft execs will be brutalizing school kids for their lunch money.

      The truly ironic bit is that Microsoft is not going to sue anyone over patents. Microsoft execs know that if they did this the various organizations that have a stake in the success of Linux (which is essentially everyone but Microsoft) would pay for a well-funded defense. Millions of dollars would be spent, and in the end the patents in question would either be shot down or removed from the Free Software product in question. Depending on who Microsoft chose to attack it could even trigger retaliation from other large players with huge patent repositories. What's more, Microsoft's patent aggression would start a wholesale migration away from Microsoft's technologies.

      If Microsoft started suing folks using its technology then its technology would become much less popular virtually overnight.

      This is why Microsoft has wisely chosen a middle road. Instead of actually taking people to court, it is simply going to threaten to take people to court and hope that they'll throw money Microsoft's way.

    6. Re:Samba by jschrod · · Score: 3, Informative
      According to Novell, you don't buy any MS license when you buy SUSE. They say that there is no reason to because SUSE does not infringe on any MS patents, to their knowledge. They also promise to throw our any infringing code immediately, it it gets known, so there won't be cause for you licensing it from MS in the future.

      According to Novell, what you get is indemnification against potential lawsuits from MS, just like you do when you buy Linux from HP or other sources. (HP also indemnifies their own customers and not others. RH doesn't indemnify, it has a limited legal defense fund.)

      The main difference here is that it was publicized how Novell realized that indemnification, by a contract and payments to MS, and that way doesn't resonate well with many free software proponents.

      NOTE: I'm not connected to Novell, but I informed myself by reading the available publicized material.

      --

      Joachim

      People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]

    7. Re:Samba by Jason+Earl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Microsoft isn't going to go after hosting companies. It is hard enough to find inexpensive Windows hosting. The last thing that Microsoft wants to do is to make non-Microsoft hosting technologies more attractive.

      Let's imagine that Microsoft did pick one of the many hosting companies as a potential patent suit target. The first thing that they would have to do is to put their cards out on the table and specify what patents they believed that the hosting company was using illegally. This would cause a mad scramble while the rest of the hosting companies changed their software so as not to infringe on the patent. After the dust cleared you would then begin to see these same hosting companies move away from what little Windows technologies they supported. Windows boxes would be decommissioned, things like front page extensions would get turned off, and Microsoft's loyal customers would find themselves without support or a place to host. Not to mention the huge PR backlash that such a move would create. To a certain extent every software developer on the planet is in competition with Microsoft on one level or another. If Microsoft started using patent litigation as a weapon then utilizing Microsoft's technology stack would become a much more dangerous proposition.

      Even worse Microsoft could very well trigger the patent equivalent of global thermonuclear war. Lots of companies (including long time Microsoft foes like Oracle, Sun, and IBM) have patents that Microsoft is currently using.

      Microsoft's position is nothing but pure bluster. It isn't going to sue anyone, and the fact is that patents are far more dangerous to its business model than it is to the Free Software model. Microsoft is currently defending itself in over 30 major patent lawsuits, some of which have already lead to large judgements against Microsoft (like Eolas). Microsoft has a big pile of money, and it writes a lot of software. This makes Microsoft the ideal target for patent trolls. An entire industry is popping up around the idea of patenting software practices without actually writing code and then suing the folks that actually write the software. Theoretically a company like Red Hat could have problems, but the fact that it "gives" the software away and charges for support changes the dynamics of the game considerably.

  3. Listen closely by deadhammer · · Score: 5, Funny

    That rhythmic thudding sound you hear is the sound of every computer professional on the planet simultaneously laughing their balls off.

    --
    I'll be honest, we're throwing science against the wall to see what sticks. -Cave Johnson
    1. Re:Listen closely by krell · · Score: 5, Funny

      "That rhythmic thudding sound you hear is the sound of every computer professional on the planet simultaneously laughing their balls off."

      Damn, sure isn't a good day to be a janitor at an IT firm. Running around yelling "Don't step on and SQUISH the things! Makes it a lot harder to sweep them up!"

      --
      Where were you when the voynix came?
    2. Re:Listen closely by krell · · Score: 4, Funny

      The sound of your balls falling on the floor is better than mod points.

      --
      Where were you when the voynix came?
    3. Re:Listen closely by krell · · Score: 4, Funny

      "This really is a male dominated industry then isn't it?"

      thud thud Not thud thud anymore thud thud thud thud

      --
      Where were you when the voynix came?
    4. Re:Listen closely by jamstar7 · · Score: 5, Funny
      "This really is a male dominated industry then isn't it?"

      thud thud Not thud thud anymore thud thud thud thud

      Why you think they call it Unix?

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    5. Re:Listen closely by fwarren · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Back in the day, when I did clerical, secretarial and data entry work, I would use that as a selling point.

      "Hey, I notice you have 10 ladies working here, want to change the dynamic of your clerical staff? Add a man to it. After all when someone gets catty with me, and I ignore it, they will just think I am a man and missed it"

      It has gotten me a job several times.

      --
      vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.
  4. Microsoft Brand FUD by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "Novell pays us some money for the right to tell customers that anybody who uses SUSE Linux is appropriately covered," Ballmer said. This "is important to us, because [otherwise] we believe every Linux customer basically has an undisclosed balance-sheet liability."
    Do me a favor, disclose your 'undisclosed balance-sheet liability' and then we'll listen to you bitch about Linux.

    I haven't seen patent one infringed upon let alone a whole balance sheet's worth so you'll have to excuse me if I seem a bit pessimistic about you strong arming me into using SuSE.

    That's right, you can spin it anyway you want ... but what I see is that Novell just lost all their street cred by selling out to you. What they sold was their future in the open source community. Why do I have this strange view of it all? Well, because I have this sinking feeling that a year or two from now you're going to package some form of Linux (maybe with Windows maybe separately) and you aren't going to release the source code & you're going to earn a profit on supporting it. And people will be pissed and there will be a court case. But you'll hire a thousand and one lawyers and they'll show up and they'll point out to the judge that Linux kernel "infringed upon Windows anyway" and the deal you made with Novell only confirmed it and admitted that they were facing lawsuits from you. The whole time, there won't be any patents cited, no logic will be used but at the end of the day the judge, bless his computer ignorance, will probably agree with you and allow you to continue to release & profit from Linux. But that won't be enough, you'll go after ever user using non-Microsoft-mutated-SuSE Linux and sue every other Linux distro. If that's not your motive, why are you already issuing warnings to users of other distros?

    It's not just any old regular FUD, it's new improved Microsoft FUD.

    Enjoy your $500 million, Novell.
    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by Epeeist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > but what I see is that Novell just lost all their street cred by selling out to you.

      I agree with you, but I think it is worse than that. I think the deal changes the perception of Linux, which is what the point of it was all the time.

    2. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the judge, bless his computer ignorance, will probably agree with you and allow you to continue to release & profit from Linux.

      I don't believe they will have any more success than SCO has had. Microsoft's biggest mistake is not understanding how well the GPL resonates with developers and how poorly DRM resonates with users. They are stuck with a DOS mindset.

      Their second biggest mistakes was proxying SCO to do their dirty work. The SCO case has shown how poorly this infringement idea flies, and it is going to make it incredibly hard for Microsoft to get any traction with the general public and with Wall Street when they take their turn. The legal traction won't be there either, but they can afford far more lawyering than SCO and will manage to drag out Son of SCO for a long time. But the end result will be even better for Linux.

    3. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Knowing Ballmer he probably thinks that Microsoft invented the TCP/IP stack and Other things that Microsoft stole from BSD...

      Personally I think the Linux community needs to with one very loud voice say...

      "Bring it fat man!"

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by jackbird · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Bear in mind that Boies Schiller Flexner, SCO's law firm, is really, really good. They're the firm that defeated Microsoft in the antitrust trial. The fact that they've been able to drag this case out as long as they have with no evidence whatsoever is testament to that.

      But IBM has some fantastic lawyers as well, and they are not going to take Microsoft intimidating and/or suing their customers lying down. The nightmare scenario is IBM, MS, and Novell collaborating on a plan to monetize Linux, but with Red Hat already having line in the sand, and Sun and most of the developers unlikely to play ball, that could end well, too.

    5. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by 14CharUsername · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This deal won't have any influence on the courts. Its all about PR and thats as far as it goes. And everyone in the know knows how this is complete bullshit. If Linux is infringing on MS patents, then why is MS paying Novell, a linux distributer? Shouldn't Novell be paying MS? What is MS paying for? FUD, thats what. But FUD doesn't work in courts. FUD is about muddying the waters and the law is all about very specific little details.

    6. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It seems they are referring to the interoperability features. Things like NTFS support and even Samba. Of course as we speak the EU is forcing MS to disclose these interoperability secrets and saying they don't belong to MS. A lot of this stuff was also covered in the initial trial here in the US. They got let off, but the political climate is changing. They might be figuring, hey we need to license this stuff quickly before the government forces us to give it away..

    7. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny
      Well, Novell said "bring it." But they were bent over at the time.

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    8. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by spellraiser · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Also from Ballmer:

      We are willing to do the same deal with Red Hat and other Linux distributors, it's not an exclusive thing.

      My, how nice of you. So you're willing to include others in your protection racket? You're much too gracious.

      Seriously, this is f*cked up, in a disturbingly devious way. Basically, Ballmer's philosophy here seems to be: "Microsoft deserves money for every single computer out there, and we will get it one way or the other."

      --
      I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
    9. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by lucabrasi999 · · Score: 4, Funny
      Well, Novell said "bring it." But they were bent over at the time.

      You know, for $500 million.....

    10. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by jimicus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If Linux is infringing on MS patents, then why is MS paying Novell, a linux distributer?

      No idea who's paying who, but you've alluded to a very good point here.

      As I see it, there are two possible scenarios:

      1. Linux really does infringe on Microsoft's patents.

      Redhat have already announced that they have no intention of making a similar deal. If there really was infringement going on, Microsoft should have taken Redhat to court immediately - it would have just as much of a PR effect, if not greater, and would also establish some influence in the courts. I can't see Microsoft getting much sympathy if they demand millions in damages several years after they announce that Linux infringes.

      2. Linux does infringe, but Microsoft aren't taking anyone to court for tactical reasons.

      Such as: any infringement has a life expectancy measured in hours, if not minutes, as soon as it's disclosed. However large companies don't tend to roll out updates that quickly, so it would be more profitable to wait until Linux is firmly entrenched in a large company and it's impractical to make a major change to the install base. This brings us back to the first question: if the only reason Microsoft are holding off suing Redhat, Mandriva et al now is to make more money from suing them later, what will a judge say?

      3. This is all a load of cobblers intended to frighten jumpy IT directors who are considering letting their staff investigate that major Linux rollout they keep on suggesting.

      My money's on 3. Wouldn't be the first time a technology company has used FUD in this way.

    11. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Funny
      I haven't seen patent one infringed upon let alone a whole balance sheet's worth

      Patent one? The patent for making Pot ash and Pearl ash by a new Apparatus and Process? Yeah, you're right, I don't think that's the method Linux uses to generate its pot ash.
      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    12. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by dilute · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is a total bluff on Microsoft's part. Yes, you can sue end users for patent infringement, but it only makes sense to do that if you have no customers and no products (i.e., only a paper patent).

      It would be suicidal for Microsoft to sue true end users for patent infringement. It will never happen. IT managers have nothing to fear on that point. It's Microsoft that fears the collective power of the IT managers. It's just SO good when there is real competition. And that's what we have now, due to Linux, Oracle, Sun, etc. So Microsoft is forced to respond.

      Balmer addressed this at the end of his answer: "[our customers are saying '] don't come try to license this individually.' So customer push drove us to where we got"

      SCO was a much more credible threat, while it lasted, because you could see a company like that, which had nothing much to lose, actually going out and suing end users (at one point I believe they did).

      If Microsoft can find (another) way to do this through a proxy, maybe that will work (if people don't immediately see through it).

      But Microsoft has no practical ability to enforce its patents against end users without SERIOUSLY damaging their brand.

      Sure, they can go after distributors, but then what - sue ALL of them? Shut down all Linux distros? Can you imagine the antitrust backlash from that? Trying to extinguish the competition en masse based on vague patent claims? Forget about it.

      Then there is the question of what the patents are, whether they are valid, and whether they can be worked around.

      Conventional wisdom, which probably holds true here, is that for companies like Microsoft, patents largely have defensive value. Any attempt to go out and wield them offensively usually has unbearable associated risks and/or costs.

      Get a good laugh, because Microsoft is very far from accomplishing anything on these fronts, other than further validating Linux and open source.

    13. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by symbolic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is laughable, because this interoperability stuff is exactly what makes Microsoft an anti-competitive monopoly. I personally believe that since Linux tools like SAMBA and NTFS offer users means to access their own data, these should in no way be subject to claims of infringement. It's equivalent to selling a live-sustaining or life-saving medical device with a heavily DRMed, copy-protected switch that ONLY works under the conditions established by its manufacturer. This is serious enough to warrant consideration of logic that goes something like this..."you can have a monopoly, OR patented IP, but not both." There is simply too much at stake - especially with Microsoft's track record.

      Patents, were, after all, designed to spur innovation, and the only way you can do that is to provide opportunities for other players in the market. You can't have other players if they can never quite get their foot in the door, fearing that they'll be sued into oblivion by monolithic, entrenched interests.

    14. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by swanriversean · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I wonder if it would be possible to "force the deal" by suing MS for some sort of slander?
      Certainly, if Linux were a person it could, I think. It is like MS saying, "Oh, don't let that Linux get near your family, he molested my children." If Ballmer said what he said about Linux about a person, with no evidence, he would likely end up in court.
      Is there a case here? Is it possible to have a case? I'd love to see someone (or better, a group of someones ... but I think Red Hat may be the only one) take this up.

      --
      Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seus
    15. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by godzilla808 · · Score: 2, Funny
      "...we believe every Linux customer basically has an undisclosed balance-sheet liability."

      *cough* racketeering *cough* extortion

      Goon 1: Want me should break that lee-nucks user's knees, boss?

      Balmer: Yeah, dat'll teach 'em to not disclose "liabilities". And he'd better have my MONEY!

      --
      ...///...
    16. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by bdonalds · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You are right that I shouldn't have made that post...just a troll, and I apologize.

      But this statement is ridiculous:

      Unless you can prove any of the accounts of the Bible false, then I will consider them facts.


      Using that method, you can "prove" damn near anything to be true! So unless you can prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or the Invisible Pink Unicorn etc.) is not our Lord and Creator, I will consider them to be so!

      Ok...I'm done on this subject here, since it's off topic and this will just turn into a flamewar.

      So let's just agree to disagree on the bible thing, and agree to agree that in Soviet Russia, dieties prove the existance of YOU!! :)
      --
      The most important thing to do in your life is to not interfere with somebody else's life. -FZ
    17. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by Knuckles · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also, get Automatix to install codecs and apps that aren't included in the Ubuntu base distribution.

      No, no, no, no! Please stop promoting this Automatix crap. It is still poorly implemented and is singlehandedly responsible for what is probably the majority of failed upgrades to new Ubuntu versions. If you recommend Automatix please also subscribe to the ubuntu-users mailing list and help the people that show up there with failed upgrades.

      Better to follow the instructions for legally restricted formats or at least use EasyUbuntu which at least is saner than Automatix.

      In addition, the GP explicitly said he wanted to use this machine as a web development machine, I don't know why he would need the restricted formats there anyway.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    18. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by Knuckles · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but at worst it could be considered a history book.

      No, at worst it is a book of made-up stories.

      One that is just a recollection by normal people of the events they had witnessed (see #3).

      You do realize that it is simply not true that all or even most bible parts are eyewitness accounts, yes?

      Unless you can prove any of the accounts of the Bible false, then I will consider them facts.

      That's a bad choice IMHO. At most you should consider them as accounts that were not disproved. Or do you also consider it fact until disproved if I tell you that a friend of mine can make his head explode?

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    19. Re:Microsoft Brand FUD by zecg · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or if you've got time, Linux from Scratch. Just don't confuse the latter with Gentoo, which is a cookbook.

      Gentoo a cookbook? I've used the same Gentoo installation for two years now with a lot of "unstable" packages and it seems to me to be a really nice distro with a brilliant package manager which offers more control and flexibility than any other distro which also attempts to automatize the installation process.

      --
      .i lu doi ringos.star. xu do puku'aroroi dunli dopecaku leni virnu li'u
  5. No need to wait for netcraft... by SlashDread · · Score: 5, Insightful

    SuSE is dead.

    1. Re:No need to wait for netcraft... by blcamp · · Score: 2, Funny

      SuSE is dead.

      After the dust has settled, Novell will follow... suit.

      --
      The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
    2. Re:No need to wait for netcraft... by cloudkiller · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the day i learned of the SUSE/M$ deal, I removed SUSE from my triple booting laptop. before the deal I would switch between ubuntu, fedora and SUSE and enjoy each of the distros' strong points. now, i look at SUSE and i just see a lamer version of windows in its early stages. its partition has now been replaced with freeBSD. sure i lost some polish but i saved my soul.

      --
      [an error occurred while processing this sig]
  6. I think you'll find... by tttonyyy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Microsoft infringes on our patience sometimes, as well.

    --
    biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
  7. Never send a boy to do a man's job by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you want a job done right, do it yourself, eh Balmer? SCO just wasn't up to the task.

    1. Re:Never send a boy to do a man's job by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Funny
      After seeing what MS did to Compu-Global Hyper Meganet, is anyone surprised?

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  8. really, he should have said... by MancunianMaskMan · · Score: 5, Funny

    GNU/Linux infringes on our IP

  9. Surprised? by bitserf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    To quote South Park: Novell just got F'd in the A.

    1. Re:Surprised? by pNutz · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Eh? Novell scores.

      They give Novell a wad of cash and gave Suse and Mono MS's blessing. MS will allow a handful of Linux distros to operate (read: suse, rh) and send cease and desist letters to every other distro because Linux and its various popular applications infringe on 326,038 MS-owned software patents. Novell sees this as good since 12,000 somewhat incompatible distributions devalue their product. Wouldn't it be nice if linux came in only 2 or 3 flavors... if you owned one of those flavors?

      It's extortion. Big linux players who play ball will have MS's approval to operate, but the FUD will limit their business (or put them out of business). Since they make up a majority of linux users, and a vast majority of linux servers, this will seal linux's place in the market. All they have to do is keep IBM and/or Sun in court for a couple of years (soon!) and get the big linux players on board (done!) and the FUD will do the rest (started!).

      What will stop it?
      • Patent reform
      • New Congress pushes MS antitrust (I know, funny stuff. Oh man.)

      and... well, that's it. Winning in court won't matter if it drags on for another couple of years. The SCO fiasco has hurt linux adoption (not that it's the only thing). This will be worse. There's no "just show me the code" in a software patent case.
      --
      Death and danger are my various breads and various butters.
    2. Re:Surprised? by StrawberryFrog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wouldn't it be nice if linux came in only 2 or 3 flavors... if you owned one of those flavors?

      I think you've found the genius of it: The problem for MS is that open source is so slippery. For instance, every time they turn around there's a new linux distribution, and they can become popular quickly - e.g. Ubuntu. If an open-source business goes under, it's code assets are still out there for any hobbysit or business to improve.

      But if there were only 2 or 3 legitimate flavours of Linux from large vendors, then those can be contained or attacked by conventional tactics. And the best thing is that the big Linux vendors won't object at first, since by going after their smaller competitors you're doing them a favour.

      --

      My Karma: ran over your Dogma
      StrawberryFrog

  10. Okay... by urbanradar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pretty much any Linux geek will tell you that's a load of jibberish, not unlike the SCO case. But, should it come to Microsoft and Novell going to court over this, couldn't this still spell trouble for Novell? A lengthy trial isn't cheap (and neither are out-of-court settlements). And the worst case scenario - maybe this could even spell trouble for Linux itself? It certainly makes for some excellent FUD for Microsoft to feed to the CIOs and managers of the world.

    With Microsoft's track history, I wonder why people trust them at all. Especially when the stakes are high, like in this situation.

    1. Re:Okay... by walt-sjc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Oh, I believe that Linux (especially when you look at an entire distribution) DOES infringe on some MS patents. Wasn't it a year or so ago where 20 some odd MS patents were dug up by Linux proponents as a concern?

      I think a couple of things have been holding MS back however. IBM and THEIR patent war-chest, and the EU / DOJ with the anti-trust / abusive monopoly issue.

      MS wouldn't go after individuals in any case, they would go after businesses.

      We shall see!

    2. Re:Okay... by chrismcdirty · · Score: 5, Funny

      So what I'm gathering from this is that it's going to be a behemoth of a battle between IBM and MS, with hopefully many lawyers dying in the middle.

      --
      It's like sex, except I'm having it!
    3. Re:Okay... by miyako · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think this will certainly spell trouble for Linux. Not "the end of Linux" - but certainly trouble. Mostly it comes down to the fact that, when MS gets around to sueing people, some retarded judge is going to look at Novell signing a deal with MS as "admission of guilt" and - while it might not win the case for MS - it will lend a lot more creadance to their FUD for a lot of people.
      As for Novell, I don't think Microsoft will take them to court, but I don't think they need to. I don't really know of anyone who was supportive of the Novell/Microsoft deal- and very few were even willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. This whole thing is going to really deamonize Novell in the eyes of the open source community. The way I see it, and a lot of other people too, is that basically Novell had the idea that Microsoft was going to start suing people over Linux, and rather than stand up for Linux and the community, they decided to become another MS lapdog.

      --
      Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
    4. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Well said. It's likely that every non-trivial piece of software infringes on some patent somewhere. But there are two reasons nobody wants a patent war:
      • It would be carnage. The only certain outcome would be lawyers getting rich.
      • Software patents are still disallowed in Europe, but there is intense lobbying to get them introduced. A US software patent war would show what a disaster they are.
    5. Re:Okay... by LordOfTheNoobs · · Score: 3, Funny

      Mutually Assured Litigation? MAL is bad. (pun)

      --
      They're there affecting their effect.
    6. Re:Okay... by ynohoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      instead of Linux distributors worrying about Ballmer suing them, surely Ballmer has just laid himself open to a liable and defamation suit?

    7. Re:Okay... by dosquatch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A US software patent war would show what a disaster they are.

      But, carnage aside, isn't this otherwise a Good Thing? Given the absurd things that the patent office approves under the flag of "[something common], but with a computer!", this might be the most expedient way to have software patents revoked across the board.

      Maybe it's time for the Linux community to pull the trigger first for a change.

      --
      "Hey, the third matrix movie would have been good except for the plot,story, and acting." --AC
    8. Re:Okay... by walt-sjc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      First, MS does go after individuals.

      Well, for some things I'm sure they do, but I haven't heard of a case where they even went after an individual that pirated Windows for personal use. It may have happened, but I haven't heard about it because it's not widespread despite the fact that piracy of Windows is very widespread.

      The reason is very simple - it does cost a fair amount of time and effort to go after individuals, and the reward is small (ability to pay and all that...) Businesses are a whole different ball game.

      Sun's deal included cross licensing from what I recall, so I don't know if they would have any ability to do anything anyway. Apple is in a position where they too are potentially violating many MS patents, and MS may (probably does) have a larger patent war-chest than Apple. Certainly MS has enough dollars in the bank so that a long-term legal fight would drive Apple into the ground. Most likely, Apple would not join this fight.

      IBM is probably in the best position to step in and put a stop to it, and has a vested interest in doing so (since they have been pushing Linux hard to their customers.)

      Most likely, if MS DOES decide to fight Linux this way, they are going to pull an SCO and go after businesses that use Linux (like SCO went after Autozone) and not go directly after Redhat / Debian / IBM.

    9. Re:Okay... by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      hopefully many lawyers dying in the middle.

      You misspelled "getting rich".

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    10. Re:Okay... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Except that the Linux community would be damaged also. A patent war would mean LAWSUITS, and that would mean that kernel.org would start received cease-and-desist letters (and possibly being forced to temporarily follow them while cases are resolved), and the hundreds of other mirrors would probably face the same thing. The onslaught of hundreds of patent cases would be like the legal version of a DOS attack, crippling the ability of Linux developers to develop, potentially wrecking the thousands of small projects out there (just by scaring developers away during the chaos)...it's mutually assured destruction. And the aftermath wouldn't be much better -- software would be gutted left and right, left half-functional because the other half was already patented by somebody else. It would be like GIF on a global scale.


      I know, this is where everybody says, "No, GNU is protected, at best there are a dozen patent issues to be resolved..."

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    11. Re:Okay... by aaronl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Either that, or Linux development leaves the US, just as much OpenBSD development left because of our ill-conceived laws. It would further the US decline in technology dramatically, and make Microsoft a huge enemy of all business. Their software would likely become taboo around the world, for fear of giving them enough influence to pull the same stunts in other countries.

  11. SCO did it! by hackstraw · · Score: 5, Interesting


    But seriously, when the first SCO thing came about, the Linux people said, "We don't want to infringe on anyone's IP, so tell us where it we are infringing, and we will rewrite the code."

    Same applies here. Open source takes a little of the fun out of these things, now doesn't it?

    1. Re:SCO did it! by miyako · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the difference will be that SCO was claiming their actual code was in the kernel, while MS is claiming that it "infringes on their IP".
      For all we know MS has some patent on Operating Systems or taking input, processing it, and giving output, or the color blue, or something.
      That's the problem with software patents, as it stands right now, if Linux really is infringing on some MS patent then the functionality will have to be removed, not simply re-implemented in a different way. If this patent is on something core to the operation of Linux, then it could be very bad.
      Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Linux does violate some MS patent- not because the kernel developers have been stealing from MS, but because software patents are far to broad in nature. The best possible scenario would be that Linux is violating some MS patents and that is used as a stepping stone in order to reorganize that entire software patent system so it's not so stupid. More likely is that either Linux isn't violating any MS patents, or it is but MS doesn't do anything about it in court because they are afraid of having to fight IBM on one side, and Antitrust lawsuits from the EU (and possibly the US, though we saw how effective that was the last time) on another side.

      --
      Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
  12. Company motto by edwardpickman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you can't beat 'em sue 'em.

  13. Put up or Shut up by Cadallin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Alright, enough of this bullshit. Isn't there some kind of Libel suit that can be filed about this kind of garbage? I know I, as a private citizen can't go around telling newspapers that the Coca-Cola company kills a kitten for every can of drink they sell, without getting sued nine ways from breakfast. Why is Microsoft any different? If they've got something, let's see it, if not, can't they be forced to stop spreading FUD on pain big nasty fine-y death? Surely Redhat, and the other corporate Linux entities have some interest in trying this?

    1. Re:Put up or Shut up by Bemopolis · · Score: 5, Funny

      I dunno, Ballmer might be right on this one. I know several Linux users who have a BSoD screensaver...

      Bemopolis

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
  14. BSD too by Lord_Slepnir · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ballmer added later in the speech "You'll notice that BSD also infringes on our Intellectual Property. You'll notice that the BSD network stack is identical to the one Microsoft created. Anyone who thinks otherwise has been brainwashed by the Great Satan"

    1. Re:BSD too by ssj152 · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      Be Obscure Clearly
      There are visual errors in time as well as in space.
  15. So what happens by Epeeist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When it is shown to be Mono that is infringing?

    1. Re:So what happens by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Informative

      I have doubts about that. As I understand it, Mono is an implementation of an ECMA standard.

      Submitting a technology as a standard does not mean giving up one's patents on it. Microsoft has patented many features of Mono.

    2. Re:So what happens by Enselic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can read about this at this Mono page

      Summary:

      The Mono/C# implementation itself is safe.

      The core of the .NET Framework, and what has been patented by Microsoft falls under the ECMA/ISO submission. Jim Miller at Microsoft has made a statement on the patents covering ISO/ECMA, (he is one of the inventors listed in the patent). [...] Basically a grant is given to anyone who want to implement those components for free and for any purpose.

      The risky part is the implementations of ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows.Forms.

      For people who need full compatibility with the Windows platform, Mono's strategy for dealing with any potential issues that might arise with ASP.NET, ADO.NET or Windows.Forms is: (1) work around the patent by using a different implementation technique that retains the API, but changes the mechanism; if that is not possible, we would (2) remove the pieces of code that were covered by those patents, and also (3) find prior art that would render the patent useless.

      As long as we use for example Gtk# instead of Windows.Forms, there should be no problems.

    3. Re:So what happens by rcs1000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's worth noting that Microsoft's IronPython project is *explicitly* for .NET and Mono. (Technically IronPython is "A fast Python implementation for .NET and Mono".)

      Any decent attorney would ask why - if Mono was in clear and obvious breach of Microsoft's patents - then they were explicitly developing software for it.

      --
      --- My dad's political betting
  16. I'll bite by smittyoneeach · · Score: 3, Interesting
    "Linux operating system"
    Ballmer's meat puppet McBride couldn't win in court on the specious SCO claims about foreign code polluting the Linux kernel.
    Not clear how, if Windows code had been magically grafted into the Linux kernel, that such Frankencode would a) work and b) go unnoticed. Linus himself is the ulitmate commiter to the kernel.org sources, no?
    As a society, we need to stigmatize people who say such wrongheaded things in public, and clueless publications that circulate such tripe.
    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  17. Patent numbers and licence fees ? by quiberon2 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Microsoft need to be specific; what are the patent numbers, which countries are they valid in, and what is the licence fee that Microsoft would like from an individual user ?

    Without that essential information, Microsoft are behaving in a commercially-inappropriate way. Intimidating and destructive to creativity.

    I need the chance to way either that the patent does not apply where I live; or that there is prior art; or that I will do something in a different way. Or to find a patent of mine (or of my employer's) that they would like to cross-licence. I also need to know when the patent expires.

    1. Re:Patent numbers and licence fees ? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Microsoft need to be specific; what are the patent numbers, which countries are they valid in, and what is the licence fee that Microsoft would like from an individual user ?

      No, they would need to be specific if they intended to file suit against anyone associated with the development of Linux in court.

      If they're just going to make public statements with the intent of spreading FUD about Linux, it's in their interest to be as NON-specific as possible.

  18. To quote someone somehow involved in this.. by kan0r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Talk is cheap, show me the code!"

  19. So THIS it was all about ah ? forcing to suse ? by unity100 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    it appears that with the passing years the microsoft top brass is getting old, and surprisingly losing their sanity before their due time.

    arent they already aware that eu is bashing them because of their similar behaviour ?

    do they think that eu will just let them force people to use their own 'partner''s distro just like that ?

    i can see fines raining down like hell.

  20. is this going to force a fork? by hedrick · · Score: 5, Interesting

    With this license agreement, Novell has a license to put MS patented technology into their Linux. Is it safe to permit Novell engineers to submit code to common Linux repositories? It seems to me that they would need to certify that none of their code contains any of the MS IP that they now have access to. Unless MS is willing to identify which portions of SuSE are covered by their patents, this could be difficult.

    1. Re:is this going to force a fork? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Novell can cram all the MS crap they want into the common Linux repositories,
      but it doesn't mean that we - the Linux community - have to accept it. I think
      snapping the Novell tine off of the fork is the ultimate answer, and we do that
      by simply turning our backs to Novell and treat it as a non-entity in the Linux
      community from now on. Its value to Linux has plummeted to zero this week, period.

      I'm planning to migrate to either Fedora Core 6 or Debian Etch over the next few
      weeks, depending on which seems to fare better during my personal bake-off. And,
      Microsoft will not have any say whatsoever about what I run on *MY* computer. It's
      mine, and not Ballmer's and he will not dictate what I can and cannot run or store
      on my hardware in any way, shape or form.

    2. Re:is this going to force a fork? by markovg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only person liable here should be the author who claims to hold the copyright, like any type of publication. If there are others who wish to the challenge the claim, they would have to demonstrate prior publication and an opportunity for the offending author to have plagiarized the source.

      If demonstrated, the source could be removed from distribution and replaced with non-plagiarized code.

      If I write a scientific article, I don't believe I am liable for citing work which later turns out to be plagiarized. Why should it be any different with code?

      Thus I would say only Novell has any serious liabilities here. It would be, however, important to get some legal advice here, perhaps the FSF could be asked to make a statement on this wrt the GPL, otherwise Microsoft might find itself a legal way to cause OSS alot of trouble.

  21. Damn, worst scenario happens... by Pecisk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I hoped that Novell/MS deal was really something meaningful, not yet another PR/Marketing stunt from Microsoft. Putting all that "protection racket" bullshit aside, which I can buy a little bit, this Balmer speech asks for more serious investigation, because it just roars "antitrust".

    --
    user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
  22. The coming war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It all makes sense - MS is starting to worry. Not about the "boom in linux in just a few years" - that has been "just a few years" for over a decade now. What they are worried about is the "Big War" on the very immediate horizon. Computing is about to undergo a huge revolution.

    Now that (as far as a lot of the top end guys at MS are concerned) Vista is out of the door they are looking at what is next. Customers (home, but most especially business) are not going to pay for another OS - many might not even buy Vista. There is little else MS can put into an OS that sells - stability and modularisation don't sell. They tried the "eye candy" route for Vista - because if they didn't it wouldn't sell one copy. The thing is they can't do the same thing again "Windows Corumo - just another coat of paint on the same OS" - nobody will buy it.

    The future? Subscription based economics - they don't have to produce another OS - they just continually charge for the current one. That too goes for MS Office etc.

    Why the current turn by MS - because linux really does cause them difficulties in that business model. $30 per month for windows or $0 for a flavour of linux.

    The big battle is ahead - the business model that has held firm with computers (both software and hardware) over the past 20 years is being broken up. This can be proven in the easiest way imaginable. Ask yourself this question. As a member of the "bulk" of computer users (ie not high end gamers or 3D designers - home "write an email and watch a dvd"'ers or business "write a spreadsheet or create a presentation"er's) - why would you *want* to buy a new machine/new OS? - the old one does everything just fine - super fast and relatively trouble free. That has not been the case for the past 20 years - it is now.

  23. Fermat's Last IP Infringement by Ada_Rules · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I have discovered the most interesting proof that Microsoft has infringed on MY intellectual property. Unfortunately, this web space is too small to contain it.

    This is getting really old and although many here will probably disagree, it will eventually have an impact. I can just hear my legal department now "We keep hearing case after case of Linux infringing on someone's IP. We better ban it. Microsoft is a big secure company that would never do anything like that and if they did, there is no way the effects of it could ever impact the end user"...Oh wait.. .. Scratch that.

    --
    --- Liberty in our Lifetime
  24. Winning quote by spellraiser · · Score: 4, Funny

    Quoth Ballmer:

    At the end of the day for basically the whole 18, 19 years that we've been pursuing the server and enterprise opportunity, our number one competitor in the data center for new applications has been Unix. Unix, Unix, Unix, Unix.

    So they need lots of developers, developers, developers, developers to keep up ...

    --
    I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
  25. Microsoft is infringing upon my Human Rights by unity100 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the monopolist pressure they are forcing my relatives, my employers, my contractees, my government to use their own software and wont let them bail out, limiting me on what i can or cant do with my audio&visual equipment in my own house, increasingly deciding what i can or cannot see on the internet, oppressing my open source community, suing people to the extent of harrassment, causing my relatives, friends, close ones to get into pain over their lacking&incapable&insecure softare and me to run fix-up errands for them, trying to funnel cash into decision makers to influence political decisions against my democratic wishes.

    In short, they are using me and all the people i know for their own personal profit against their wishes.

    i request that microsoft cease and desist immediately

  26. What intoxicant is Ballmer consuming? by msobkow · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What is it about monopolists that they end up thinking no one else could possibly be as good as them and their team, that no one could possibly compete, that no one could come up with an idea on their own?

    Why do monopolists assume they own the world when their fragment is a paltry slice compared to the whole?

    Why would someone whose anti-trust investigation mysteriously evaporated shortly after the Bush election be flapping their gums when the Democrats are on the rise and looking into any and all events for influence, connections, and blame? Instead of worrying about Linux, Ballmer should be worrying about the spectre of renewed anti-trust investigations.

    The Linux code is up for public review. The straw-dog SCO attempt to tear it down is all but done. Let Microsoft publish their code and identify the purported IP conflicts. They don't and won't because they can't, and they know it.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  27. Pirates O' The Valley by Tarlus · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hey, Steve, Apple of the 1980's called. They want their reactions to your OS stealing their ideas back.

    --
    /* No Comment */
  28. Interoperability by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Interoperability... Are they are putting in decent VT100 terminal support for a mere few 100 M$ ? Sure.

    --

    I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
  29. Well, that explains it! by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 3, Funny

    Ahhhhh, so Microsoft owns IP that's in Linux, eh? So that explains why they paid Novell All That Much Money.

    --
    Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  30. Not really by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I think the deal changes the perception of Linux

    Funny thing. SCO tried this same thing about 3 years ago. It started with a reporter "viewing" the evidence and then reporting it as being a credible violation. After 3 years, NOTHING has come from it. I suspect that we will soon see a reporter reporting that they have seen numerous IP violations from Linux, but will not show the evidence and will soon say that it is credable. My guess is that it will be Dvorack or some other idiot inside of PC Mag.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  31. Mod Ballmer's genius up. by Dystopian+Rebel · · Score: 4, Funny

    Really, he is a genius. Think about it.

    IT Shop: We need some robust 24/7 uptime servers.

    Ballmer: Great, I'll send you some Windows licences. Misa or VasterCard?

    IT Shop: No, we need a well-architected, secure OS that's designed for networking.

    Ballmer: Great! I'll send you some Vista licences. You should see Aero. Wow!

    IT Shop: No, in the last 10 years, Windows has cost billions of dollars in lost time because of security flaws in Microsoft software.

    Ballmer: Um... well... er... heh...

    IT Shop: We're going with Linux.

    Ballmer: Did you know? All the good parts of Linux were designed by us. Novell even admits it. We release so much great code every day that we let the hippies have some for free. So, in fact, when you buy Vista, you get all the good parts of Linux. Plus... you get Aero! Wow! Will that be Misa or VasterCard?

    --
    Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
  32. Re:M$ takes and does not appreciate by Pink+Tinkletini · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole point of the BSD license is that the code may be used freely, by anyone, anywhere, for any purpose. BSD programmers care more about seeing their code put to good use than about getting something back in return. I'd just be happy to see my code being used to improve such a widely-used product, thereby improving the lives of millions. Much less likely with the GPL, you must admit.

  33. Smokescreen - MS will not sue the Linux distros by aauu · · Score: 4, Informative

    All this patent noise is hiding the real agenda. Microsoft is having Novell create a Linux compatibility layer for Windows to replace the aging/ailing Services For Unix/Services for Unix Applications. Services for Linux in Vista/Longhorn by SP2. Novell has the skills to hack Linux interface into Windows, since this is how Netware integrates. Remember FreeBSD has a Linux compatibilty layer so there is an existing shim already that can be adapted.

    --
    When I was young, I had to rub sticks together to compute.
  34. Tagged scoalreadydidthat by kimvette · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Didn't SCO already did that? Why can't Microsoft be original? What's next; are they going to try to erect a huge sunshade over Seattle? Steal the head off of a statue of George Washington? Come on now, Microsoft, you can do better than that! But then, I suppose this is so typical of your idea of "innovation."

    Seriously though, if they claim Linux infringes on its IP, it's 99.999% likely that every other *nix variant out there does as well, since Linux is merely a clone of Unix. So, go after the likes of Sun, IBM, SCO (Yeah, I know SCO and Microsoft are lovers, but bear with me here), the BSDs, HP (HP/UX and Dec Unix), and so forth. I don't think even Microsoft has the resources to prove to the courts that an OS architecture which predates theirs by over a decade infringes on their so-called "intellectual property."

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  35. What is the penalty for violating the BSD license? by grandpa-geek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The BSD license doesn't require much, but it does require that a copy be included in anything that uses the code. Has anyone seen a copy of the BSD license included in Microsoft products? I understand they make substantial use of BSD-licensed code. What is the penalty for that violation? How much of Microsoft's intellectual property is really Microsoft's. How many of Microsoft's patents are similar to their recent years' patenting of sudo (that had been in use for well over 17 years)? How many of Microsoft's patents are based on ideas in code they acquired having BSD licenses?

    Folks, we are getting into a massive prior art battle here. Microsoft couldn't create problems for Linux through SCO, so now they are trying to do so directly.

  36. Microsoft, moving customers daily by DannyO152 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This, btw, was Ballmer speaking to predominantly to his customers. He led off by asking who was running Microsoft stuff and who was running Linux as well. Reportedly, a "surprising" number of hands (described as many outside of the quote) went up as well, and Ballmer asks about interoperating problems, some of the audience were having them, and on he goes with Microsoft's solution. While the ip in Linux is a legitimate lede, isn't another take-away that Linux is getting into the datacenter whether or not Microsoft cooperates, i.e., there are problems Linux is solving? And didn't he tell his customers that they are infringing Microsoft's ip if they were using the wrong flavor of Enterprise Linux? And isn't he saying that in order to help solve the interoperating problem, RHEL-using customer of ours, we're going to sell you some vouchers so you can get the other brand, waste time adapting to its differences, have you write off that support subscription to RedHat and make you go get more money for your budget, and that way, after we huddle with Novell, you won't have interoperability problems later (maybe). So, everyone keeps asking the FOSS world -- what's your reaction, what are you going to do. Well, Microsoft customers who also use Enterprise Linux or who are thinking about checking into it, what are you going to do, now that Microsoft has decided that it should you cost you more money to do your job?

  37. Ballmers pissed that Linux has BSOD by NullProg · · Score: 3, Funny


    http://www.linuxcommand.org/man_pages/bsod1.html

    We all know that Windows most innovative feature is the BSOD. They want thier royalties.

    Enjoy,

    --
    It's just the normal noises in here.
  38. But think of this by jlebrech · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Microsoft Windows infringes on our intelligence.

  39. make lawsuits --not-vista by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This move by Microsoft was pretty obviously in the works when they announced their patent cross-licensing scheme with Novell. But the Novell deal isn't absolutely committed yet. And Microsoft, like other submarine patent strategists, usually waits awhile to announce their target, to fool more people into forgetting the way they set up the target, and fool more people into thinking the original transaction was executed for its intrinsic business merits.

    So this whole campaign to screw Linux with patent attacks looks desperate. And since the Novell deal isn't absolutely committed, the strategy is in jeopardy, without its foundation properly laid. With IBM already whipping Novell's last created Frankenstein, SCO, into harmless foam after years in court, Microsoft's attempt looks less likely to succeed every few days. When will Oracle come out of the woods? Does RedHat have a patent arsenal to match its brand and budgets?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  40. Re:What if it does? Seriously. by mikael · · Score: 2, Informative

    A lot of that I'm sure is safe, but I can't imagine that somewhere in there and among Microsoft's untold zillions of software patents that there isn't a (legally) reasonable case that could be made against something OSS that people would care about.


    A good many GUI's existing before MS-Windows. Just as there are timelines which document how OS kernel's have evolved, there are also timelines which document how GUI's have evolved. This site documents the evolution of each and every GUI, along with every icon that each GUI has used. This is particularly important for commercial application developers who wish to avoid any lawsuits caused by using someone elses "trademarked" icon.

    As an example, here is the components page, which documents the evolution of the most commonly used icons.

    As long as the Linux community can prove that any feature in an application has prior art in earlier GUI's that haven't been patented or copyrighted by Microsoft, then it is pure Microsoft FUD. If MS want to sue Linux, then they will have to sue the other OS vendors as well.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  41. OSX question by Overzeetop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, if there is "infringing" IP in Linux, is there a liklihood that similar infringements have been made in Apple's code?

    Really, I'm not trolling. It sounds like Ballmer is saying that MS has so much of the system tied up in IP that effectively everybody who writes an OS which can interact with MS software is infringing. Does Apple have cross licensing?

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:OSX question by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, if there is "infringing" IP in Linux, is there a liklihood that similar infringements have been made in Apple's code?

      Yes.

      It sounds like Ballmer is saying that MS has so much of the system tied up in IP that effectively everybody who writes an OS which can interact with MS software is infringing.

      Yup, but the same is true for Apple's IP, IBM's IP, Sun's IP, etc. Patent wars are sort of a mutually assured destruction option. Imagine if all of those companies were simultaneously stopped by the courts from distributing their OS's. Our patent system, especially with software patents, is an absurd mess.

      Does Apple have cross licensing?

      Apple does have some agreements with MS, including a license to the Windows API as of 2000, I believe. I don't think this is important. Companies that actually make things generally have patents and are infringing patents and know better than to actually sue, rather than just threaten. The real danger is from patent litigation companies who own patents, but make nothing. They can sue confident that they are not infringing other patents. MS would be moronic to actually sue, rather than just hint they might as a PR move.

      I'd like to see IBM counter with a publicized statement that says "Windows appears to be infringing 12,440 of our patents, (or whatever number they can pull together on short notice) and IBM is considering our litigation options. We're not saying we'll get an injunction to stop Vista from shipping, but we haven't ruled out that possibility. Oh, and the Xbox 360 is infringing 130 patents and we're going to court over them right now."

      IBM has more patents than god and the legal muscle to cause a big hurt on anyone. If they rattled their saber in response and maybe took a quick jab at a peripheral project of MS's, like the Xbox, MS would probably shut the hell up in short order.

  42. FUD means never having to say anything specific by walterbyrd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The lack of specificity is the most damaging. Clearly msft's game is to flood the media with vauge innuendo about linux being a legal mine field. A lie told often enough is the truth. If msft were specific, their claims could be evaluted and appropriate actions taken.

    Msft = the fud factory.

  43. Does Linux infringe upon MS IP? by qazwart · · Score: 2, Funny

    > In comments confirming the open-source community's suspicions,
    > Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer Thursday declared his belief that
    > the Linux operating system infringes on Microsoft's intellectual
    > property.

    Well, look at the facts.

    * Linux uses Microsoft's technology of taking input from a keyboard and displaying it on a monitor.
    * Both Linux and Windows run programs that can help you create documents and run a webserver.
    * Both Linux and Windows need "programs" written in "source code" that must be "compiled" in order to operate. Even worse, these "programs" need to be downloaded either over the Internet or from a CD.
    * Both Linux and Windows communicate with computers that use the Windows OS.

    That's pretty damning evidence! The only technology Linux hasn't stolen yet is Window's ability to bloat up with malware causing the system to come crashing down and displaying the Blue Screen of Death.

  44. IBM has not yet spoken... by emil · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...and IBM attorneys are affectionately known within the organization as the "Nazgul."

    The track record for Microsoft's legal department is really not that good. IBM will probably tear them apart if they really go at eachother.

  45. So how much is Microsoft innovation worth? by roystgnr · · Score: 2, Funny

    According to Ballmer, "the appropriate economic return for our shareholders from our innovation" is about negative 348 million dollars.

    That number sounds a bit small to me; I think Novell should have at least held out for an even $400 million, an apology, and a promise from Microsoft to never try "innovating" again without adult supervision.

    But really, this intellectual property stuff is serious business, and I don't think any Linux users want to fall afoul of the law. If Novell had to pay negative hundreds of dollars for each of their users' infringement of MS intellectual property, I think us Fedora users (and you Ubuntu users, and Gentoo users...) should all be willing to step up to the plate and pay negative hundreds of dollars per license too.

  46. Remember the movie 'Brazil"? by greg_barton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Brazil directed by Terry Gilliam

    One of the characters is a guy (played by Robert De Niro) who runs around repairing the horribly broken machines that everyone's required to use, but are forbidden to fix. He's hunted down as a terrorist.

    Seemed pretty crazy when I first saw it.

    Doesn't seem so far fetched anymore.

  47. What about OIN and the Patent Commons? by caudron · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What effect will the Patent Commons project have on a patent assault by Microsoft? Also, will the newly formed Open Inventions Network also affect the way Microsoft approaches this issue?

    I mean, both of those organizations essentially grant rights to their patents royalty free only to companies that don't sue F/OSS projects. If MS starts a suit, wouldn't they have to contend with both of these patent holding portfolios as well as the enormous portfolio of companies like IBM who have a vested interest in seeing Linux succeed?

    I get the feeling (though I could be dead wrong) that MS gets far more benefit from the current ambiguity and the occasional stirring, scary statement than from actually pursuing a legal remedy.

    Tom Caudron
    http://tom.digitalelite.com/

    --
    -Tom
  48. OT: Lunch money by Captain+Sarcastic · · Score: 3, Funny
    Next thing you know Microsoft execs will be brutalizing school kids for their lunch money.


    That remark touches a nerve for me. There was a girl in my elementary school who kept taking my lunch money. Worse yet, she took it from other kids in the school.

    However, I was the first one to stand up to her, and tell her that she wasn't going to get MY money, and that I was going to keep it!

    So she told me to put my tray back, and turned to the next kid in line.

    But I could tell that I'd had some effect from the way she kept looking at me funny for the rest of the year, and the whispering of the other kids told me that I'd made an impression on them as well.

    --
    Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
    1. Re:OT: Lunch money by Locutus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Microsoft has gone after "lunch money" before. When they were attempting to get as many school systems on Microsofts License 6 scheme, they used the BSA to trigger clauses in the Microsoft Windows EULA to force expensive audits on various school systems across the US. Many caved in and paid for MS License 6 instead of the 10's to 100's of thousands it would cost for th audit only to have a handful of illegal copies still cost them millions. But, a few fought back and dumped MS Windows for GNU/Linux and then started telling other school systems about it and how it was much cheaper than MS License 6 or the audit.

      Google for Oregon school Linux Microsoft BSA or similar terms and you should get some hits on the topic.

      Microsoft just might be forcing an 'event' in the market they really don't want to occur. The fact that they are even using the "L" word and signing/paying off a "L" word company is amazing enough and shows they are having a 'problem' with GNU/Linux and probably FOSS too. IMO.

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    2. Re:OT: Lunch money by Harry+Coin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, yeah, there's no such thing as a free lunch, right? Well, Microsoft is basically saying that there's no such thing as a potluck dinner either.

      --
      That's pre 7-11 thinking....
  49. They are using our IP so we paid them $234 million by Locutus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Their shareholders should be pretty pissed at THAT kind of money making scheme. But me thinks it's more like their money making scheme with regard to WindowsCE and Xbox. You know, the scheme to take profits from the Windows monopoly( around $10 billion so far ) and keep the WindowsCE and Xbox products on the market so nobody else jumps in and grows to threaten the Windows monopoly/gravy train.

    IMO, in the next few years we are going to see the public finally seeing Microsoft for what they really are. After all, FOSS and GNU/Linux must be doing SOMETHING or else Microsoft would not be doing so much in the public and financial markets regarding them. Unfortunately, I don't see very much of this in the United States so it must be going on elsewhere or outside of my sight.

    'Gozer' has now, or will soon be, materialized and Novell could be our 'Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man'. Will it be IBM, Oracle, RedHat, or others who bust this party up? Or will the US become to knowns as "The land of Gozer", if it isn't already?

    So, "Who you gonna call?".

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  50. Re:Linux is not an OS by rk · · Score: 2, Funny

    I thought it was just called the GNU/L-Aid.

  51. Microsoft spreading THUD? by the+way,+what're+you · · Score: 2, Funny

    Testicles, Hair, Uncertainty, Doubt

    --
    example.org - powered by Linux!
  52. I See IBM & M$ Going At it:-))))) by 1mck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ooooh, I see IBM, and M$ going at it, and hey didn't M$ screw IBM with the Operating System...Yeah, that's right they did!LOL This is going to freakin' great!!! Oh yeah, M$ is very frightened of Linux, and Open Source because look at the deal they made with Corel, so that they wouldn't develop Corel Linux anymore.

  53. Dude, you're 100% right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    >> Windows itself is an extrapolation of other people's prior works at best.

    This got me thinking... You know, Microsoft can't even claim to have invented windows. Pretty amazing... I had forgotten how late they've come to this game.

    According to this link http://toastytech.com/guis/guitimeline.html , it took M$ about 12 (twelve) f* years to finish (?) a product that would "revolutionize" IT.

  54. Boycott Novell by 10scjed · · Score: 2, Informative

    Let us all remember who it is that is complicit in this FUD campaign, Novell 's self-serving deal legitimizes Microsoft's assault on Linux. Regardless of the technical wording of the deal, and whether it can be established that Novell is violating the letter of the GPL 2, they are certainly violating its spirit, Novell must not be supported.

    --
    --10scjed IANAL,AFAIK
  55. Rules of Deception 101 by Infonaut · · Score: 3, Funny

    Steven, when you use a Trojan Horse strategy, you have to remember to wait to attack until the doors are closed, night has fallen, and the city inhabitants are all asleep in their beds.

    Overall grade: C+

    Great execution of a sneaky plan at the beginning. Strong-arming Novell was a masterstroke. Then you brought the whole plan down because you were too impatient. Reread The Prince before our next assignment.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  56. Cry havoc. by quag7 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In a way we should be thanking Ballmer. A lot of people run Linux now and the thrill of simply putting it on one's machine is long gone.

    Ballmer's comments, and the presumable legal action which will follow them in the future, lets us feel like outlaws, non-conformists, and rebels again. SCO was never really a thrilling nemesis

    SCO is...well...SCO is...pathetic.

    I never really had that thrill of running something as unlikely as Linux; by the time I got it installed (2001), it was pretty popular, installers had made it simple, and it wasn't a big deal. But now, not only will my 5 years of Linux usage be a functional and utilitarian experience (which is the sum total of what it has been thus far)-- but also one of spite and defiance going forward.

    I enjoy spite and defiance. Don't you? I'd rather be dragging down kings and military regimes, but this will do as a small snack in my comfortable suburban kitchen.

    A small thrill, but it feels good, nonetheless.

    I can't be the only one who felt *good* to be a Linux user when I read this.

    The chances of me downgrading to something like Vista were null to begin with, but now, well...

    The only thing I have to say about Windows is, well, bitch if I need to, I'll run your OS in a *window*.

  57. Linux probably violates patents by kabloom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    These days, you can patent anything. Linux probably violates some of Microsoft's patents -- but they're probably stupid patents that will be overturned by a court.

    That doesn't mean it's not expensive to litigate.

  58. Mod parent insightful by Zantetsuken · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Mod parent insightful - for those of you that don't know, yes politicians and lawyers do do this, in Congress for example. Congressman are allowed to take the floor and talk about wookies just to kill time and bore the other side to death so they give up on passing a bill and go home. It's not quite the same as what the parent posted, but it's another example of lawyers and politically minded officials stalling for time as a lame way to defeat the opposing party versus making an actual arguement...

  59. whaaaa? by f1055man · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think this is the first time there's a fud tag but no "notfud".

  60. Kiss my Shorts! by Brandybuck · · Score: 2, Funny

    Obligatory Miguel de Icaza quote: "But Microsoft would never do anything mean to us!"

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  61. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish... by dtjohnson · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With the Novell deal, Microsoft pretends to 'embrace' Novell SUSE Linux and casts a FUD shadow over non-SUSE Linux but that's not the whole thing. Next will come the Microsoft products that extend SUSE Linux to 'interoperate' with Windows and, guess what, they might actually become popular and useful for both Windows and Novell SUSE Linux users. Finally comes 'extinguish' where the new products become obstacles to using other OSS software and non-SUSE linux.

  62. Re:SMB2 in kernel, requires Vista AND longhorn by Guy+Harris · · Score: 2, Informative
    SMB was based on (really copied from) an old DEC protocol. This is what jump-started the Samba project; one of the lead developers had access to DEC's specs for this protocol.

    No. DEC had an implementation of SMB called PATHWORKS, which included a DOS client and a server for VMS and, I think, Ultrix, but they didn't invent the protocol. (They might have had some add-on protocols with PATHWORKS, but the core protocol was the SMB that IBM, 3Com, Intel, and Microsoft were involved with developing. See this message from Steven French. I think Steve's the main developer of the cifsfs in-kernel SMB client for Linux).

    One of the lead developers (some guy named "Andrew Tridgell" :-)) reverse-engineered SMB based on traffic between the PATHWORKS client and server; he later discovered that this was SMB, which did have some published specs. See Tridgell's description of the history of Samba.

  63. I didn't want to believe it.. by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I really didn't, I thought that Novell would do better than sell out the last of their dedicated fans. I love administrating our Novell network. I loved SUSE Linux before Novell bought them, even more afterwards! And now Steve Ballmer has ME ready to throw some chairs over his statements.

    I don't feel we as a community have taken ANYTHING away from those pretentious bastards, things are quite the opposite. I would be forever hurt to watch something as stupid and ineffective as government crush the open source movement over something as silly and wrong as the claims MS is making.

    --
    I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
  64. Re:Microsoft IP by Guy+Harris · · Score: 2, Informative
    IF MS doesn't allow Samba and interoperability then they aren't opening their APIs.

    What if they allow it, but only if you pay a licensing fee? The EU decision requires only "reasonable and non-discriminatory terms", and explicitly speaks of "any remuneration that Microsoft might charge for supply"; perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see anything there that requires Microsoft to allow you to give away SMB server software for free. (See section "6.1.1 Remedy concerning refusal to supply", and its two subsections "6.1.1.1 Order to disclose interoperability information for the development of interoperable products" and "6.1.1.2 Reasonable and non-discriminatory terms, timeliness of the disclosures".)

    Perhaps Microsoft's strategy can be summed up here as "Don't forget to pay your $32 to $760 licensing fee you cock-smoking teabaggers." :-)

  65. Reverse psychology - Microsoft is the real thief by slackaddict · · Score: 5, Informative

    I thought I'd do a quick Google search and see if good ol' Microsoft has ever "appropriated" any code themselves. In just a few minutes, I found eight instances where Microsoft lost court battles over the code they stole. Here you go:

    As a response to Digital Research's DR-DOS 6.0, which bundled SuperStor disk compression, Microsoft opened negotiations with Stac Electronics, vendor of the most popular DOS disk compression tool, Stacker. Stac was unwilling to meet Microsoft's terms for licensing Stacker and withdrew from the negotiations. In the due diligence process, Stac engineers had shown Microsoft some Stacker source code. However, Microsoft chose to license Vertisoft's DoubleDisk instead of Stacker.[2]

    Soon, MS-DOS 6.0 was released, including the Microsoft DoubleSpace disk compression utility program. Stac successfully sued Microsoft for patent infringement regarding the compression algorithm used in DoubleSpace. This resulted in the release of MS-DOS 6.21, which had disk-compression removed. Shortly afterwards came version 6.22, with a new version of the disk compression system, DriveSpace, rewritten to avoid the infringing code.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS

    A new patent battle is brewing -- this time over Microsoft's (Quote) claim over Caller ID for E-Mail.

    F. Scott Deaver, owner of Failsafe Designs, says Microsoft is guilty of the "outright theft" of his product name and intellectual property (IP), and will seek legal and financial redress from the Redmond, Wash., software giant and anyone else that uses his technology that verifies e-mail is coming from the domain it claims.

    http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3 393891

    Alacritech® Inc., the innovator of Dynamic TCP Offload(TM) data acceleration solutions that enable the highest performance and efficiency in networked systems, today announced a U.S. District Court granted Alacritech's motion for preliminary injunction to prevent Microsoft Corporation (Nasdaq: MSFT) from making, using, offering for sale, selling, importing or inducing others to use Microsoft's "Chimney" TCP offload architecture slated to be available in both the "Longhorn" version of the Windows® operating system and in the Scalable Networking Pack for Windows Server(TM) 2003.

    Alacritech sued Microsoft in Federal District Court on August 11, 2004, alleging that Microsoft's existing and future operating systems containing the "Chimney" TCP offload architecture uses Alacritech's proprietary SLIC Technology® architecture. The suit is based on two of Alacritech's fundamental patents relating to scalable networking, U.S. Patent No. 6,427,171 and U.S. Patent No. 6,987,868, both entitled "Protocol Processing Stack for use with Intelligent Network Interface Device."

    http://www.alacritech.com/html/041305Alacritech_Gr anted_PI.shtml

    In April 2001, Intertrust initiated a lawsuit against Microsoft. The lawsuit ultimately accused Microsoft of infringing 11 of Intertrust's patents and almost 130 of the company's patent claims.

    The lawsuit centered on accused products based on the following technologies:

    DRM and product activation technologies .NET and related security technologies
    Trusted and reliable operating system technologies
    In bringing the patent infringement lawsuit, Intertrust believed that Microsoft's forward-going technology infrastructure significantly relied on Intertrust's inventions for DRM and trusted computing.

    http://www.intertrust.com/main/ip/settlement.html

    (Redwood Shores, CA, December 15, 2005) - Visto Corporation has filed a legal action against Microsoft (NASDAQ: MSFT) for misappropriating Visto's intellectual property. The complaint ass

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    ConsultingFair.com