Slashdot Mirror
Drivers License Swipes Raise Privacy Concerns
Clubs in New York, New Jersey, and elsewhere are requiring patrons to give up their drivers licenses for a swipe through a card reader. Some bars do this too. The card reader displays their birth date and the establishments let it be assumed that the only purpose of the swipe is to check the customer's age. They rarely if ever disclose that the personal data stored on the license — the customer's name, address, license number, perhaps even height, weight, and eye color — go into a database and are retained, perhaps indefinitely. While a federal law forbids selling or sharing data from drivers licenses, there is no prohibition against collecting it. A few states have enacted such prohibitions — New Hampshire, Texas, and Nebraska. Privacy advocates warn that such personal data, once in a database, is bound to be misused. From the article: "'I don't see no problem,' said [a club-goer], 22. 'That happens every day on the Internet. Any hacker can get the information anyway.' [A Web media executive] said such reactions aren't surprising from a generation accustomed to sharing personal information on Web sites such as Facebook.com and Myspace.com. 'The kids don't care,' [he] said, 'because only old people like you and me suffer from the illusion of privacy these days.'"
Good quote, it's funny because it's true. My myspace pages (and I have like 7 or 8 of them) all list my name, address, license number, height, weight, and eye color. I don't understand old people not listing their license on their myspace pages. How are you supposed to know if it's really them?
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
I guess if the 22 year old "club-goer" who can barely speak English isn't worried, I shouldn't be either.
That I'm under 21 and use a fake id!
I'm 20 and I care!
"I don't see no problem,' said [a club-goer], 22. 'That happens every day on the Internet."
Were you drunk at the time? What kind of places do you visit on the net to give this information out every day?
The amount of private info required is WAAY out of control. And the people asking for it are WAAY out of line. I heard that reality shows were very bad, so I looked up a sign up sheet Deal or No Deal (think that was it). It was unbelieveable how much info they wanted to just choose stupid suitcases.
in gilhoolies strathpine (brisbane, australia) a couple nights they've required all who enter to surrender their licenses to be put through a machine and to be photographed, the overwhelming majority don't care because if they don't do it they won't be let in.
when it comes down to it theres a choice of, hey, awesome night out at a pub, or go home because of a violation of privacy. I don't see many young people choosing the latter.
I just assumed most pubs were all going down this route, and that it was nothing new.
Gives it that well-thought-out fell. Like a movie that ends with a question mark.
Don't take your license out with you, or if you are driving, don't show it when asked for ID.
Show your passport or another form of ID (military, etc.) which is recognized elsewhere (e.g., a liquor store).
Establishments which do have license mag-stripe readers will likely not have the equipment for machine-readable passports, but the passport will still provide age verification.
Yeah. Well, they won't care until that information is used against them, either via identity theft or something worse.
Of course, most people won't experience that, but the easier it is to "steal" or otherwise misuse someone's identity, the more often it'll happen, and that means more people will be affected by it. Not that most people will ever figure out the connection. Thanks to the sorry state of education in the U.S., precious few know how to think anymore.
And not that it matters anyway, even if they did figure it out. This is the United States, where corporations and those who run them rule all. The troubles of the lowly consumer underclass matter not at all here.
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
that make me hate my generation. I'm going to have to spend the rest of my life saving their asses from this kind of neglect and apathy, and I can only hope that enough of them wake up to help me.
DRM = Digitally Restricted Media. This is a viral sig, pass it on.
Every year I get sent a new list of the address and phone number of everybody in my city, listed by last name. Nobody ever considered that to be an invasion of privacy, but nowadays somebody trying to invent a phone book would probably never be able to do so.
Oddly, I just recently started wondering about why random people's license plates get blurred out on non-fiction TV shows. Who cares? If you already know the person's name, you can find out where they live. Knowing their license plate number doesn't give you much data that you didn't already know or couldn't look up anyway. And oftentimes the car is just in the background, and know its license plate doesn't tell you any information!
I suppose maybe the difference is that the data was always available, just not in a useful form. Now that cheap computers can quickly process large databases, maybe it's more of a problem.
dom
They rarely if ever disclose that the personal data stored on the license -- the customer's name, address, license number, perhaps even height, weight, and eye color -- go into a database and are retained, perhaps indefinitely.
Seriously, there's no law against providing a replica license with garbage on the magnetic strip to clubs and bars if you're legal age, is there? After all, you're not misrepresenting your credentials, you're preventing identity theft.
Push Button, Receive Bacon
It's just that simple, people.
This isn't just the case at bars and clubs.
About a week ago, I went to purchase Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. Because I look under 40, they wouldn't let me buy the game without ID. Fair enough, I pull out my student ID, and offer it.
I was informed that not only would it require offering government-issued photo ID, but it would be necessary to extract all of the information off of it, rather than just enter my age/dob. I refused, and escalated the issue to a manager, who refused to override, and informed the cashier she would be fired on the spot if she hit the "looks over 40" button.
Of course, the manager was unable to provide me with all the information on _her_ license (it's private), but couldn't see why I wouldn't want to provide my name, address, social security number (I got my license before they switched to a numeric system), race, and (potential) disabilities to target, just to buy a video game.
Walking over to Wal-Mart, I paid cash. The computer asked them to check (not swipe) ID. Cashier saw I was "old enough", hit OK, and I was on my merry way. I found this rather odd, given how "RFID Gung Ho" they seem. Perhaps it's about ruthless efficiency, rather than a need to track people. Or, maybe it's the fact that half the people seem to be illegal immigrants who shop at my local Wal-Mart.
I have already seen reports of using such data to "track" drinkers and their habits. People SHOULD care. MADD and their prohibitionist agenda has already advanced the violating of civil rights to a new high as it is, by wrapping drunk driving in the fabric of a social disease; anyone think they won't take it straight into the realm of "preventative therapy" using this information? The war on drugs/alcohol/alternative lifestyles needs to be outed for what it is: an evangelical war on sin. And its front continues to charge into the mainstream of American living, lead by religious bleeding hearts and hypocritical 60's-era hippy soccer moms.
I genuinely feel bad for the coming generations of Americans and the pseudo-fascist oppression under which they will be burdened in the name of "for the children". No matter my age, I will fully support and understand their inevitable backlash.
Scott
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Aaah, evolution makes life so simple at times. In my younger days (I'm a ripe old 29 now), if a blood sample would bump me to the front of the line at a hot club in LA, I'd have gladly given it up. Thank goodness, I've matured since then. . . . . hehe, just kidding. I'd still cough up the blood sample. :)
How are you supposed to know if it's really them?
Why do you care?
Really -- why does it matter? Unless you're planning on using MySpace as a dating service, which is a bad idea for any number of reasons, I don't see why it matters who the actual meatspace person that's behind a particular online avatar matters. It's like asking whether the clerk at the Dunkin Donuts counter is a transsexual, or dyes their hair: maybe they do, maybe they don't. Does it really matter? Is the knowledge really necessary in order to interact with them? Clearly not.
I think there is a bit of an obsession with trying to link online identities to real people; we need to realize that the disconnect between avatars and natural people is both intentional and desired. Who cares whether the controlling entity is male or female, or some particularly well-engineered piece of software -- it doesn't matter.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I'm not going to bother to check, because come on. Of course making a fraudulent license is illegal. Or maybe the law says that's fine as long as you don't lie about your age. Get real. Maybe there's no law against showing it to clubs (specifically), but there sure are laws against making it in the first place.
Relax I just want some peanuts.
Its interesting because everything that makes up our identity these days is so based around our job, drivers licence, age, shape etc etc. I wonder how other cultures outside the western world would treat this? Would you want someone taking your identity away from you? Maybe we need to back to basics and just live more simply perhaps? cheers, Ben http://www.webexperts.co.nz
http://www.webexperts.co.nz
A couple of big magnets would probably solve the magnetic strip "problem", and without doing anything illegal.
Sadly, this is probably the best attitude to have. With our current models for establishing identity, and our current systems for storing and protecting personal data, the truth is if your information is stored anywhere it might as well be plastered on a billboard. Someone's going to get ahold of it somehow, and it's going to be copied, and copied, and copied until it's everywhere. There's no sign of this changing. Even dramatic advances in things like encryption only close one of the many doors to your data, and as long as a single human has access to that data somehow, it's going to get up and walk away someday, and it will live in the wild forever. Ultimately, if you want to keep this information out of anybody's hands, you need to keep it out of everybody's hands. This just isn't feasible if you don't want to go completely "off the grid" and move into a fallout shelter in Montana (or just find a 3rd world country and disappear). Think how many times you prove your identity to some service (both meatspace and online, they're pretty much the same as far as propagating your data is concerned) in a given day.
If you want to live in a society that has access to the vast databases of knowledge and instant communication ours does, ultimately you need to come to grips with the fact that there's going to be a lot of data about you in those databases, and that this data is going to spread like wildfire. Maybe that means learning to live with no secrets, and people getting comfortable with knowing each others' intimate details rather than just their public facades. Kids seem to be going in this direction already, sharing anything and everything with "friends" they've never met, just because they added them to a list on a website and got a couple pictures in return.
Or maybe we need to completely rethink the concept of identity from the ground up, both online and off, if people truly do value their privacy. We're probably going to have to do it sooner or later due to other technological advances anyway, as is illustrated in so many science fiction books and movies. If we don't kill each other first :)
I suppose it's either one of these choices, or we just smash the grid and go back to banging rocks together :P
Game... blouses.
Maybe there's no law against showing it to clubs (specifically), but there sure are laws against making it in the first place.
Then just bombard your real license with some high-power magnetic fields and you're all set. There's no law that says you can't erase the fucker.
Push Button, Receive Bacon
http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1 164091705151690.xml?starledger?ntop&coll=1\
The other one automtaically prints from the browser which can be annoying for some users, especially those without a printer or a slow machine.
cheers,
ben
http://www.webexperts.co.nz
http://www.webexperts.co.nz
Aren't you allowed to have sex or buy alcohol if you are under 40 where you live?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Perhaps that should read, "while a federal law forbids selling or sharing data from drivers licenses for the time being..."
Breakfast served all day!
Between Milwaukee and Chicago, I went to a club in Kenosha where they took a digital photo of my drivers license. I figured it was for saftey measures, if someone was to fight or branish a handgun, the police would have something to start with. Not all places do this, I think this specific hotspot just does so because it is so popular. I would rather be safe and risk the extreamly low probability of club management stealing my identy. What does the club need to steal your identity for when they charge $7 for an ounce of 80 proof alcohol?
You would also be suprised how many people won't accept military ID's of valid forms of identification. I've been asked on several occasions if I had a drivers license instead. I purposly use it to decide if they get my hard earned money. I know I went off-topic a little, but it's bullshit. I don't care if some punk ass bouncer never has seen one before, it says right there in big bold letters *DEPPARTMENT OF THE ARMY*UNITED STATES OF AMMERICA*
I want to be retired when I grow up.
Was it ever that much better? There was no glorious golden age of intellectualism in America, when every boy and girl could generate Euclid's theorems and apply Newton's laws.
I always show my military ID. It does have more info on it, but bars aren't set up to scan it.
No there's not. A lot of states will sell a lot of your info, and a ton of it is free for the looking. If it has changed, do you have the federal law citation? Last I knew skip tracers and private detectives were far from being out of business, and government records are one of the primary areas they search in.
I know of clubs that photograph your id as you enter, one even has a stipulation in their license that forces them to. it's done so that if shit happens out the front police know who was there.
i spent five minutes thinking and all i got was this crappy sig
'Ol people' know something the youngers may not..."the only way to live outside the law is to live within it."
Passing this off as a generational default does justice to none. If anything, younger generations simply haven't had time yet to enjoy spending a night in jail because your brother used your DL the last time he was ticked for speeding. Or they haven't had the pleasure of the Police knocking down their door (when they should have been elsewhere) in the middle of the night, looking for a rape in progress because someone figured out how to spoof the 911 system? Or they have yet to be called in for an IRS audit because some border-jumper used their SSN? MAYBE they still need to go thru the experience of being mistakenly strapped into a lie detector and accused of murder thanks to a 'misunderstanding' by the cops? Eh, Bunky...think this sounds like fantasy?
Give it time...your number (literally) will come up, and when it does, remember...in jail, everyone is innocent and only your cellmates can hear you scream - face down into the stained, smelly and torn mattress, of course. You'll love it, I promise....bitch.
Young people tend not to care much about what a government may have on them because they've never had to deal with the threat or actuality of an unfriendly government. When people start getting hauled off the streets and 'disappearing' c/o the state then suddenly that DNA and fingerprints you so willingly handed over, will seem rather more precious.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
Privacy is dead. Has been for a while now, actually. Like it or not, you'll have to learn to live with it. And, try or not, I do not think this will ever change. Such is the price for living in the Information Age.
having to show and id when buying is a violation of my privacy, but it's not as if though anyone forces anyone else to hang around in bars.
Now if I'd have reveal my identity to buy groceries I'd be worried.
These yellow boxes are old hat in California and have been around for at least 10 years. While they check the DL to make sure the mag strip matches the info, they are not storing any info. Why do they do this? They are there to prevent fake and expired ID's. If a DL can pass this yellow box then it is a real DL and not a fake, this is a way for the bars to make sure no underage patrons or patrons without valid ID (expired) are in the house. I have never heard of this data ever being pulled out of the little yellow boxes or even the ability to pull the data. I went to a junior college with a guy that started this company, and I have seen them very often in the past 10 years in Southern California.
http://www.viage.com/ is the website for the company that makes these devices, as far as I can tell no data is actually being stored on these things at this time. Here is the link for the unit that is being addressed in the article. http://216.122.245.42/cav2000.htm
---In a time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey.
It's bad enough when you go to Fry's Electronics and they want to swipe your DL for a CASH RETURN. I had to explicitly tell the cashiers "DO NOT SWIPE MY DRIVER'S LICENSE" before giving it to them for the return item. They STILL play dumb, and try to do it. Well, at least a few years ago they did.
I remember listening to the radio in 2002/3 about this crap these clubs are doing. It started mostly by clubs on the east coast, and they were really getting noticed when they sold the information to 3rd parties or directly themselves sent patrons "Happy Birthday" and discount patron cards and such. This is DANGEROUS, especially since some states may have little or no encryption in their cards. Banks, grocery stores and other swipe, so these damned clubs, under the pretext of screening out past troublemakers, swipe. I wouldn't be surprised if they are also doing it as part of a bounty hunt to reap a reward by law enforcement if they nab a dumb guy. They also claim it's to put a dent in underage drinkers and such entering the bars. That's bullshit, since if they THINK the ID is fake or being misused, they already have the power to confiscate it, detain the "suspect" until police arrive, and then they should let the POLICE swipe the card for authenticity and holder identification.
I will NEVER enter a f*cking club that wants to swipe my ID. (I guess if I ever have cause to be on the East Coast and friends want to drag me to a club, I'll have to decline, unless it's one that doens't swip... I refuse just on principle...) All they need to do is keep a hot sheet on the wall of rejects, and ban them. When they swipe mag stripes which are NOT secure, who KNOWS what information they could pick up. And, with properties selling and being lumped in as co-properties (think of the TV and radio stations...) when will it end? Your name will be in a database of diverse companies that don't NEED your name. Entering a damned club is not a license for them to sell and market your information. If that is how they supplement their income, then they won't be getting money from me.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Sorry, but I live the lifestyle, and even I think intoxicated driving is fucking stupid. It's not for the children, it's common sense. Even at ones most selfish, it's still retarded - if you get pigged, or worse, end up killing somebody, then that's going to put the kaibosh on living that lifestyle. Self preservation, people, self preservation - does a cab home really cost that much?
My ID just doesn't scan. For some reason, the batch of IDs made around my twenty-first birthday all have broken magnetic stripes, which I discovered the first time the freedom-hating state-run liquor stores in PA tried to swipe my card. The guy said "Hey... this says your ID expired. Twenty years ago."
The last time they went to scan it, I told them ahead of time that it probably wouldn't scan, then pulled out my Draft Registration and SS card to prove it was me. He called over the manager, but who can deny that kind of ID?
Thanks, broken ID machine! Keep up the good work!
If they replace it with a good one it could always have a "little accident"
http://michaelsmith.id.au
I received a call from our local ILEC trying to sell me a better deal than I currently had. It sounded ok, so I decided I'd go for it - until the rep told me that he had to connect me with a third-party verification service. He said they would only ask about three fairly general questions, and that would be it. As soon as they asked for my birthday, I terminated the call.
Also, people should know that companies selling card readers often list, as a *feature* the ability to capture information and use it later - for mailing lists, sale to other businesses, whatever. It's probably safe to *assume* that anyone swiping your license will retain and use the information long after your visit.
We have similar issues up here in Toronto but I solved this the easy way. I took a magnet to my drivers license.
Just never patronise an establishment that even requires you present ID in the first place. Stop buying controlled substances if you feel they aren't worth the cost to your dignity every time someone asks; "Your papers please". Stop subjecting yourself to searches and inspections by private security forces if you feel it isn't worth being treated like a criminal just to get into that place. Stop patronising places that ask for everything including your mother's second name for every petty transaction.
May the Maths Be with you!
Ok.... but then it won't scan properly. Swipe a damn piece of cardboard instead if all you want is for it to not display your age.
Relax I just want some peanuts.
My driver's license can live in the car, where I'll never forget it when I'm driving.
At other times, I don't carry it, or anything else. Particularly if I'm going out drinking, I don't drive there in the first place.
Exactly twice have I been kept out of drinking establishments by this, so I waved my friends in and hung around in front with the bouncer ("no, I don't have anywhere to go; I'm waiting until my friends come out") until they got sick of me and let me in.
I see an issue for states like AZ, if the db is ever hacked, there are thousands of SSN's just floating around, waiting to have the persons identiy stolen.....good thing I dont get carded anymore, or live in that state. :)
Texas enacted a law that forbids reading of Driver license information except by Law enforcement officers and to verify drinking age.
Indeed it does: the market offered a choice. Not, in all likelihood, because of the invisible hand of competition, but simply because Wal-Mart has not chosen to use monetize (nasty word) customer information like that.
On the other hand, the profit motive is probably what encouraged the other shop to insist on the information in the first place. This story seems to have captured the ugliness of the market right along with its beauty.
A club in Ontario swiped my license for 'verification'.
My next birthday, I got a cute little letter at my home inviting me to celerbate at their club. Needless to say, I don't let people swipe/scan my ID anymore.
Thankfully, Canada's PIPEDA privacy law now makes it illegal for them to deny providing you a service because you didn't provide personal information unrelated to the essential requirements for the service.
Why is information like height, weight and eye colour even being stored on your licences? It has nothing to do with your ability to drive. Looks like the fight for privacy should be on two fronts in this instance.
Personally I'd be suspicious of anybody that wanted to swipe my ID for the purposes of checking my age, when my DOB is printed on the card itself. Mind you, my licence is just laminated card...
A man walks up to the barkeep, "I'm looking for a man, goes by the name of Wilson. "Seen him come around here, maybe you've heard of him?"
The barkeep grumbles back, "Maybe, let me check my Drivers License Scanner Database". The barkeep then prints out a page of the aforementioned license information and gets proper compensation from the stranger.
Not exactly how it usually goes down in the movies, but if this keeps up then maybe in the near future movies will look a little more like this.
A couple of years ago I was in a pub in South-East Queensland (Australia). One of those nice, open, colonial-style places, kept free of McPub money. There were a couple of older security measures in place. One was a warning above the bar that said "My Pub - My Rules". For those that didn't get the hint, there was a weathered old criket bat with a little label underneath titled: "Patron Attitude Adjuster". Sadly, the 'wussification' of Western civilization continues...
> Privacy advocates warn that such personal data, once in a database, is bound to be misused
Of course it will be misused; you can make money out of it.
Younger adults don't care because they have no knowledge or perception of the risks involved with the digitization of private data.
Going from analog records to digital records is NOT "more of the same"; it is qualitively different, because of the orders of magnitude improvement in the ease of accessing and searching the data.
FYI, alot of the clubs and bars will not accept your Military ID because ever since they changed them to the new format they are no longer a FULL ID. In order to be a full valid ID for identification purposes there must be more than a name and picture, it must also include your height / weight / eye color / blah blah blah... The old military IDs had all that information, the new ones dont...
However that doesnt mean that they should have to COLLECT all of that information, that is bullshit...
+++ATH0 NO CARRIER
I don't see no problem,' said [a club-goer], 22. 'That happens every day on the Internet. Any hacker can get the information anyway.'
This is the generation that grew up with locker and back pack searches, drug tests, and a near total disdain for the concept of privacy rights. Won't it be interesting to see what they think is okay for the cops to do if you're suspected of a crime.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
After all, you don't get younger with time...
the customer's name, address, license number, perhaps even height, weight, and eye color -- go into a database and are retained, perhaps indefinitely. While a federal law forbids selling or sharing data from drivers licenses, there is no prohibition against collecting it.
On the surface, I don't really care if my local pub has my stats. At worst, I'll get an advertisement in the post for free pool on Thursday night. However, going deeper, who is looking at this data, and why? If I go to the topless pub twice a month, are the police going to use this data to profile me as a pervert. Can I expect this data to be used to obtain a warrant to confiscate my computers. Will the police attempt to blackmail me by threating to tell my wife how often I visit the pub? Will my kids be taken away when they find the pictures I took of my wife, despite the files being locked away from the kids?
I can understand the need to keep minors out of the pub. However, they need to maintain and/or create a method that protects my privacy.
Request a Linux Shockwave player here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
They rarely if ever disclose that the personal data stored on the license -- the customer's name, address, license number, perhaps even height, weight, and eye color...
Do all the licenses out there really have that information? I know that in Michigan, by law, the magnetic strips can only contain the license number, birthdate, and expiration date.
~Warning!~ The above is encrypted using rot676!
Look.
Find a friend that works at a TV station who has a heavy De-Gausser.
One swipe and RFID (OK might take a microwave pass) and all the fleas are gone!
My $.02
What kind of club did they visit where people talk in such a way?
Regardless, if you don't want to have your licence swiped, bring your passport or deface your licence's magnetic stripe. Being in close proximity to an MRI machine will do it without visible defects.
That's not a fix, that's a workaround.
"beer".
All this hullabaloo about privacy with regard to ID checking at bars, and no one thinks it's weird that the state is PROHIBITING the sale of alcohol to people under 21?
Set your phasers on "funky"!
Really? I live just out of Dallas (Rockwall County) and all of the local restaurants (Saltgrass, Snuffers, Applebees) do this routinely. They ask for my drivers licence and swipe it through the register. Someone told me it was because its a dry county that its part of the Uni-Card system. - But at the end of the day, they are swiping my drivers licence into the register.
I changed mine to an administrative key to all the rooms in the hotel back when I was a desk clerk at a cheap hotel. If they haven't changed the locks, it should still unlock any door in the place. Never used it, though.
-1, "1337" speak
Fry's electronics has been doing this since the mid 1990's every time you write a check.
Just run your drivers license through a demagnitizer, and try and let them scan it then!
They allow to pass laws at swiping the info, but don't push for the bars to only be allowed to use a reader that cant be interfaced, sort of like a quick read (for those dumb doormen that cant tell your age from your birthday) Hey it says here you are 22...welcome to our club...and then let them pass, there does not have to be a reader that loads the info into a database..... not if the reader has the interface already built into it to display the age..... Shows the politicians are just puppets on strings "The best way to predict the future is to invent it!"
Slashdot ran this story about 5 years ago. I wish I could find the original though. It was interesting then too.
When did the federal law about not sharing information from a driving license arise?
This sentence immediately brought to mind this article, We're all big babies which was listed at Aldaily not long ago, a second-class screed which is true enough nonetheless. We're such big babies that we can't postpone our gratification long enough to say no to any request no matter how intrusive. This sentiment has almost entered the food supply, as we see from the sentence above.
Clubs are not requiring patrons to give up their drivers licenses. That would be illegal. Clubs are requiring patrons to give up their drivers licenses as a condition of entry which was left unstated as if perhaps impossible. Big difference. The prospective patron, one who is not afflicted with the prevailing spirit of cultural infantilism, can say "not in this lifetime", turn around, and leave.
The same applies to DRM-afflicted media. Rights or gratification. Adult or baby. Choose.
God put magnets in hard drives. Those little magnets are more than strong enough to wipe the mag stripe.
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
The 'club-goer' is clearly bending his advanced intellect into confounding media through the subtlety of a double-negative!
Does anybody know how you can demagnetize or otherwise render your swipe strip on your license as useless? They can just look at my ID as far as I am concerned, and when I go to stores to buy a pack of smokes or something, I specifically ask them not to swipe my ID. However, I would like to not have to do that anymore.
For those that say that we shouldn't worry about things like the swipe boxes from collecting data, only verifying it - what about when these boxes access a state database? Surely the state database has logs so that they can say "oh yeah, John Doe just purchased some stuff at this liquor store, or just bought smokes at this gas station". I have a right to privacy, and I don't want logs and records of everything I purchase for the convenience of somebody else to use against me at some point.
A community-oriented lyrics site
The amount of private info required is WAAY out of control. And the people asking for it are WAAY out of line.
There are two sides to every story. Bars want to swipe your card so they don't get fined for serving to underage kids. By having that data, they have a leg to stand on if/when the kid gets busted.
Of course, legislation is totally not the answer. If you don't want to swipe your license at a bar, go to another one.
IMHO, this is exactly the same as the smoking ban. If you don't want to be around smokers in a bar, go to another one.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
I have been to a number of bars on Long Island since turning 21 a year ago. I started receiving flyers and coupons from these places and realized they used my info scanned from my drivers license. The next time I went to one of these places I could see the PC the scanner was hooked up to and could see the names, addresses, and birthdays of everyone that was being scanned. It just didn't seem right...
Most places will simply assume that your card is fake and not serve you if it doesn't contain good magnetic data. You might as well simply refuse to show them the ID in the first place.
Since I took a neodymium magnet to the stripe on my drivers license, there hasn't been a card reader yet that could pull any information out of it.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
There are two sides to every story. Bars want to swipe your card so they don't get fined for serving to underage kids. By having that data, they have a leg to stand on if/when the kid gets busted.
I know real bartenders that can tell more about a person (age, if they are going to be a problem, who their friends are, what sports teams they like, blah, blah, blah) just by looking at them when they walk in the door. When you work in that business for a decade or two you start to get a feel for things. None of these bartenders rely on ID scanners.
Of course, legislation is totally not the answer. If you don't want to swipe your license at a bar, go to another one.
I'm not usually a fan of legislative solutions but in this scenario I think it's more or less appropriate. New Hampshire's law is actually more or less in line with libertarianism. The state has a legitimate interest in regulating drivers -- i.e: everybody has to have a drivers licence. The state also has a legitimate interest in seeing that functionality creep doesn't take over and make them mandatory in other areas.
Personally, I'd love it if New York had such a law. Forget clubs, why exactly does Verizon Wireless need to retain a copy of my licence to give me cell phone service? And don't say "take my business elsewhere" because they all do it. So the choice is to go without telecommunications or hand it over.
I'm a fan of telling them I don't have a drivers license but here's my passport.... at least that doesn't have my address on it and they can't scan it (yet). What, you won't take it? Well gosh, it's a Federal id.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Stop carrying your SS card. (Really.)
1) it's _not_ ID, regardless of what Ohio wants you to think. (The reason they don't print it on licenses any more unless you explicitly ask for it is that it's illegal. They lost the litigation brought by the federal government to stop the practice, but still try to make it hard on folks because they insist on linking it with your license to make their own job easier.
That's also why stores can no longer legally ask for your SSN. The only legal use for it is specifically 1) employers, 2) banks, 3) other financial institutions, specifically to track tax information. Other uses for it are prohibited by law. (Sadly, those laws are often not properly enforced, and therefore ignored... Similarly, "voluntary" surrender of your SSN as a condition of someone doing business with you is also of questionable legality, but often happens, nonetheless.)
2) if someone ever takes your wallet, you're screwed, because then they can pretty much get access to all of your credit and financial information. And, often, due to lax enforcement of the above-mentioned laws, many databases where folks have given SSNs for whatever reason are still indexed by them, meaning you can pull a lot of other information with them, too. SOX is supposed to address that, but it's heavy going...
The proper rule of thumb is that you never want to give out any more info than you have to, and to assume that anyone who collects information will 1) keep it forever, 2) not bother to check it's accuracy any more than necessary for their own convenience, 3) not protect it adequately, and 4) probably abuse it (knowingly or not).
With your SSN, your wallet is currently providing one-stop identity theft.
If you really want an alternate ID, a passport is a better choice. And, for now, anyway, they do mess with folks heads.
This has been going on for years, and they definitely use the data they take off the license. I still get fliers in the mail all the time from clubs I visited years ago and the only way they could have gotten my mailing address is from that scan of my license. Of course it makes sure I always know when they are having a naughty school girl night, so maybe it's not such a bad thing.
Since when are citizens required to carry ID? Not that I know of.
I don't carry it unless I'm driving a car, which is not many days lately.
Of course, the private business is free to ask for whatever they want as a condition of entry. They wouldn't get my business though.
These systems are probably not capable of reading a Passport. Nor does a passport have your address listed. They could not deny you entry into such a place for not having an "ID CARD." as there are many forms of valid government identification.
Don't patronize these places. If the places not swiping cards are doing better than the places that do swipe cards, it won't take long for those that do to cease doing so.
I know real bartenders that can tell more about a person (age, if they are going to be a problem, who their friends are, what sports teams they like, blah, blah, blah) just by looking at them when they walk in the door. When you work in that business for a decade or two you start to get a feel for things. None of these bartenders rely on ID scanners.
We're not talking about where everybody knows your name. We're talking about The Boulevard Dive in your local college town that has constant people underage trying to get it. If they can say "look everyone we swiped in was over 21" then they're covered if the town tries to take their liquor license on such accusations.
...and that's all there is to it.
Liquor is regulated.
Cigarettes are regulated.
Driving is regulated.
Being in a school library at night is regulated.
If you want to avoid being monitored by regulating agencies and their agents, don't do things that are regulated. You have no right to avoid such monitoring in the course of applying such regulation.
somethings (like this) are not a problem to a individual but are detrimental to the society, thats were government/group action is required.
simular to the tracking of phone calls, tapping phone calls, or stealing a penny. when it is done to a single person the cost to that person is negligible, when it is applied to enough people the cost to society can be great.
You give me a single persons info, I would be hard pressed to find the value in that. IE I could spend a week figuring out a PO box, taking out a credit card... and probably not pay for my time, in comitting the crime. but give me a 1000 id's I can streamline the process, and the value is great.
and to each individual scammed, not a huge deal, cancel the card notify credit companys/bank, dealys in any loans I am processing... But those little scams cost billions to the society as a whole. It is in societys intrest to encourage people to protect themselves.
The fact that I don't lock my house/car/... and leave my keys in it half the time is not a concern to me, I lose something, I replace it. however if everyone did that, theives would make a easy living, and we would have many more thives...
Because they can doesn't mean we have to let them. Remember that chattel slavery was once the law of the land in this country, too, and we can fight this crap. Give to the EFF, write letters to the editor of your local newspaper, call/write/fax your elected representatives. This garbage has to stop. It can be done, but not if you believe bullshit from some drunken twentyling sans a clue, or defeatist advice.
Dog is my co-pilot.
These types of controversial and privacy invasive abuse are recipes are asking for identity theft to happen. Sorry but someone must be a complete idiot to swipe his drivers license at some club.
somethings (like this) are not a problem to a individual but are detrimental to the society, thats were government/group action is required.
Right, and your group action is called Capitalism. You get enough people to leave, the bars that swipe cards (or don't dislose usage policies, whatever) will go out of business.
It is in societys intrest to encourage people to protect themselves.
Exactly. So do that, and if enough people don't care - then you're in the minority, and it sucks for you. Our society is NOT supposed to work by having minority dictate what the majority can and cannot do. Therefore, I say no to legislation. Let the market deal with it.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Just teach the goddamn hired goons that guard the door to read and do simple math, and they will not need to swipe anything.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Everyone has their own opinions of what governments main roll should be. I thought it was obvious to all that a significant role of the government is to protect it's the citizens, not just the majority.
Many things like repeal of slavery are not in the direct interest of the majority, but are a requirement if the majority wants to claim to have any morals at all.
Civil Code 1798.90.1. (a)
(1) Any business may swipe a driver's license or identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles in any electronic device for the following purposes:
- (A) To verify age or the authenticity of the driver's license or
identification card.
- (B) To comply with a legal requirement to record, retain, or
transmit that information.
- (C) To transmit information to a check service company for the
purpose of approving negotiable instruments, electronic funds
transfers, or similar methods of payments, provided that only the
name and identification number from the license or the card may be
used or retained by the check service company.
- (D) To collect or disclose personal information that is required
for reporting, investigating, or preventing fraud, abuse, or material
misrepresentation.
(2) A business may not retain or use any of the information obtained by that electronic means for any purpose other than as provided herein.(b) As used in this section, "business" means a proprietorship, partnership, corporation, or any other form of commercial enterprise.
(c) A violation of this section constitutes a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for no more than one year, or by a fine of no more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both.
The problem with the "go somewhere else" attitude is manifold. What if there is nowhere else? example: only pharmacy in town and they won't sell you your prescription. What if every provider of the service has the same requirements? examples are rampant. What if you can't go somewhere else? example: single female bartender/waitress/etc. gets pregnant and needs work. Trying the market forces excuse works for maintaining prices (if there isn't a monopoly/collusion). It does not work in situations like these.
Clones are people two.
There was no glorious golden age of intellectualism in America, when every boy and girl could generate Euclid's theorems and apply Newton's laws
Harrumph - well at least in my house we all obey the laws of thermodynamics.
The problem with the "go somewhere else" attitude is manifold. What if there is nowhere else? example: only pharmacy in town and they won't sell you your prescription.
Anyone can play 'What if's. What if the only pharmacy in town is pissing off it's customers? You start a new one. Too lazy? Then deal with the one you have.
What if every provider of the service has the same requirements?Other than legislation, how else would they? I'm telling you to avoid legislating it.
What if you can't go somewhere else? example: single female bartender/waitress/etc. gets pregnant and needs work.
You mean like the homeless iron worker who sits outside McDonalds asking for money? I don't quite understand the example.
Trying the market forces excuse works for maintaining prices (if there isn't a monopoly/collusion). It does not work in situations like these
Sure it does, you would just prefer to tell everyone to do what you want them to through legislation.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
The NJ license has two barcodes on the back, a 2D PDF417 and a 1D code on the back's lower edge. The former encodes all the text on the front of the license. The latter has only the name and date of birth and was designed for quick ID checks in bars. I doubt many bars will invest in the more expensive hardware and software needed to read PDF417. If you've already got a line at the door, what do you need customers' addresses for? Is direct mail the next trend in liquor marketing?
Yawn, where has everyone been? This has been happening for 8 years.
I recently bought some booze from a liquor store. I got carded, and the cashier swiped my license through some scanner without even asking permission. I have no idea whether or not it records data or just does the job of establishing age for them without counting on the cashier's ability to do math. The next day I was shopping and noticed the demagnetizer they use on stuff you buy to make it not set off the alarm when you walk out of the store. It had the warning, "Do not place credit cards near this." So I rubbed my license all over it. The clerk was confused and said, "You don't want to do that!" My reply was, "How would it ever benefit me to have my license scannable?"
This is already done at a lot of bars in the Milwaukee, WI area. Albeit, they're not being scanned or swiped (or god forbid, read by RFID) but they are certainly put into a machine that captures the card using a standard black and white camera with a bright light in the box, which allows it to check for the anti-counterfeit holograms and signs of forgery to the bouncer.
"You had this look that of an angel, it was such a bad disguise" --Dishwalla
http://www.duiblog.com/ MADD is trying for a new Prohibition, of that there is no doubt. The gov loves it, as it's an excuse to ignore the Constitution.
I recently was at a Houston's restaurant in Atlanta and I ordered a glass of wine with my steak. I'm young, I look young and I always have my ID ready when ordering a drink. They asked for it, I obliged, they started to walk away with it. I got up and grabbed the waiter asking where he was going with my ID. He stated he needed to swipe my ID to verify my age. I told him he could verify my age by reading the birthdate on the license. If he really wanted to verify my age, I presented my passport. He said it was Georgia law that they needed to swipe it (I know this is BS, I spend a couple months out of the year working in Atlanta.) He said they didn't use or store any of the data but really, am I supposed to trust someone who already just lied to me? Do they present a privacy policy for your data? I took my license back, left the uneaten food and proceeded to leave the restaurant. Their manager then proceeded to tell me I wouldn't have the problem if I wasn't trying to use a fake ID.
I think if you're worried about your privacy then you have the right to do so. The problem is that information wants to be free. A more open source approach might be better. I think since we can't stop the release of data throughout the internet and other mediums (credit cards, drivers license, gift cards) we should just open everything that has to do with everyone's privacy. If I can read all information about you and you can read all information about me, if you look me up, the log files of your internet connection to the database are open too so I can find out, automate the searches, ... This will help me find out if you stole my identity and I can take either legal or revenge action.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Pre-pay cell phones? The market has already corrected for classes of people who want privacy or have shitty credit.
Method of processing duck feet
Frankly, I'm shocked that someone in New York or New Jersey would be involved with any crime what so ever. I live in New Jersey and I can attest to the fact that there is no corruption, everyone is polite, and it smells like roses.
Indiana like all states were forced to put some sort of code on them. Indiana chose a barcode that you can erase with an ink eraser. :)
Just zap the thing with a magnet, eraser, paint, solvent, etc.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
I had my ID scanned the other night at the Abbey, a large and popular gay bar in West Hollywood (Los Angeles County). I've been there several times before, and this is the first time they've had an ID scanner.
It would be especially creepy for a gay bar to keep a database of its customers' personal information. I'm 100% out, but not everyone who goes to gay bars is. Some people at the bars are out to their gay friends but not their straight friends, or they're out in their social life but not at work. Many such people would be frightened to find out that their name is stored in a database of people who've been to a gay bar or club.
So I really hope you're right that the ID scanners they use at California bars and clubs aren't recording information.
I work at a convenience store, and we run licenses through a similar device whenever someone tries to buy alcohol or tobacco. We do this to make sure the printed information hasn't been altered in some way, and to verify that the license hasn't expired and likely been passed to an underage sibling. If you bring in something that we can't scan, like a passport, a military ID, or even an ID from another state, we won't accept it. This state's alcohol and tobacco laws are rather draconian, and the scanner is a necessary tool for minimizing the risk of underage sales.
The scanner itself isn't much of a privacy concern. It merely reads the bar code on the back of the license, then displays the license number, age, and date of birth on a small screen. This information is also printed out on a roll of paper, along with the date and time the license was scanned. No other information is collected, and the paper record is just to prove that we're checking ID, and the ones we're accepting are legitimate.
-b.
The IdScan Drivers License Scanning Solution:n se.html?gclid=CIGBr_r62ogCFQN-VAodpWHDpA
http://cadandgraphics.stores.yahoo.net/idscanlice
Consider the list of features, especially those bulleted below:
"Let idScan increase productivity and reduce human error by automating the
archiving process. The bus-powered USB device is powerful yet simple to
use. Together, with its versatility, idScan offers the perfect,
comprehensive scanning solution.
-Extract both data and images
-Automatic state detection -- all 50 states!
-Automatic card detection and scanning
-Use the three technologies for verification of ID cards authenticity .
-Capture a full image of the license, or face & signature image only.
***Scan cards directly into sales automation applications or contact
management applications.
***Scan driver licenses directly into Kiosk Leads capture programs, and
other similar data gathering or surveying applications.
***Fully automated scanning process - Allows users to focus on
chain-feeding media into the scanner, while image processing and data
extraction take place automatically in the background.
-Automatic page-feed detection - Launches the scan job immediately upon
the insertion of a document into the scanner.
***Documents image and data are stored locally or exported automatically.
***!!!Extensive export capabilities: export to any other application,
email, FTP and the web
-Image auto alignment - Automatically corrects incorrect card insertion.
-Capable of scanning any photo media including paper photos, ID cards,
checks and even rigid plastic credit cards.
-Data is automatically extracted into appropriate text fields"
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
What are you saying??? Fake lice are quite painful. I had them as a child and I would cry myself to sleep every night. Eventually I was hospitalized and they had to aputate my head.
Don't make fake lice. Think of the children!!!
Pre-pay cell phones? The market has already corrected for classes of people who want privacy or have shitty credit.
Yeah if I want privacy all I have to do is pay $0.25/minute instead of $0.088/minute ($39.99 for 450 minutes) with unlimited mobile to mobile and nights/weekends.
Pre-paid phones are a friggen rip off in the United States. And how does privacy relate to credit? Why do they need my drivers license?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
We're not talking about where everybody knows your name. We're talking about The Boulevard Dive in your local college town that has constant people underage trying to get it. If they can say "look everyone we swiped in was over 21" then they're covered if the town tries to take their liquor license on such accusations.
And the student has a right to be leery of letting their address get stored in the database of such of a bar. Have you ever seen some of the people that work at those places? Perhaps we should be asking ourselves why the drinking age is 21 in the first place instead of why a bar owner needs to compile a massive address database to "protect" himself.
Oh and you can't fake the barcode/mag stripe?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
You mean like the homeless iron worker who sits outside McDonalds asking for money? I don't quite understand the example.
No. I mean that nice 20 something serving you your cheese fries in your favorite diner with a smoking section. She gets pregnant and she has nowhere else to go. Noone will hire her because she is pregnant and can only work for a couple months before having to quit (even though they aren't supposed to, employers do descriminate against pregnant women, its a fact) so she is stuck exposing her child to a carcinogen.
Other than legislation, how else would they? I'm telling you to avoid legislating it.
Many businesses in the same field share common business practices, many that I don't agree with. Telecom companies, etc. all require a social security number and a credit check before they give you their service is the most common example I can think of. This isn't legislated but is almost, if not totally, global to that industry. At least in my area, and most I hear about, you cannot, without great finagling, get around these requirements.
Sure it does, you would just prefer to tell everyone to do what you want them to through legislation.
I would actually prefer most things not be legislated, but when it comes to protecting people either from companies collecting too much data and not protecting it, as exemplified in the OP, or when it comes to protecting the general populace's health, as in the smoking example, it is not just within the government's power to enact protections, but the reason for the government. The government's primary purpose, although most politicians have long since forgotten this, is for protection of the people.
Clones are people two.
This is where we're going to disagree. The waitress can wait in the non-smoking section, she can work the register, she could work the grill. Well, assuming she actually believes the whole 'post-lung-filtered smoke is far more dangerous than just off a cigarette' propaganda. I'm sure you've already seen the fallout from the whole 'anti-smoking' movement: Now that people who have vices are peer-pressured into not smoking (or - orally taking an appetite suppressant) we're suddenly a nation with an obesity problem. At least it shows that legislation isn't necessary, when proper brain washing is put into effect ;)
I do want to be legislated into having to wear weights because I'm naturally faster and more agile than most people. Oh and I don't smoke, I just find the whole situation laughable - at least up to the point where someone thinks they can tell me if I can smoke or not - then it's a serious breach of my rights.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)