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Mark Shuttleworth Tries To Lure OpenSUSE Devs
polar_bear` writes "A lot of developers are angry at Novell for its deal with Microsoft, but is it fair game for other vendors to try to capitalize on dissatisfaction with Novell? Apparently, Mark Shuttleworth thinks so. Shuttleworth sent an invitation to the openSUSE developers list inviting developers 'concerned about the long term consequences' of Novell's deal to participate in Ubuntu Open Week and consider jumping ship to Ubuntu. OpenSUSE and Ubuntu developers are not amused."
The idea of inviting developers to jump ship is too... un-Linuxy. OSS in general is not about getting the most developers, nor is it about sucking projects dry when they make an alliance with the heart of all computing evil. OSS is about choice. If developers are really unhappy with the alliance, they will jump ship themselves.
Why not targeting many Microsoft developers instead? That would help everybody in the FOSS community.
If any number of them were going to jump ship, wouldn't they just create a new distribution. They could recruit people from the Fedora team, Trustix Secure Linux, and Ubuntu.
I'd call it STFU linux.
--
Sometimes people are as stupid as they look.
A game has objectives and is competitive, anything else is just play
Did you really think there wouldn't be any?
you had me at #!
I don't see an issue with this. Mark's note was well written, and simply mentions that there are alternatives. It was not malicious or derogatory. As for trying to poach developers, you don't think the like of Novell and RedHat aren't doing that all the time? At least Mark is doing it out in the open, instead of using agents, ie. recruiters, to do it.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
No big deal. I mean really, they're not trying to hire them. They're trying to convince these guys to work for them for free instead of the other guys. The "invitation" is an invitation to go to some classes so people can learn how to get accepted to work for free. I can't believe people do this.
Certainly, some developers are not at all pleased with the Microsoft-Novell agreement. Mark is just letting them know they're welcome :P
Anyway, I don't see why this is 'un-Linuxy'. Competition helps OSS thrive, and if you can convince developers to work on your project, why wouldn't you?
Mr. Cosmonaut clearly understands that Novell will get a tremendous money advantage over the next few years. It would be enough to lure all bright developers that remain in Debian/Ubuntu world to SUSE. Even RedHat should be aware... Ubuntu needs a big push to get its place under the sun. Currently RedHat and SUSE control the enterprise Linux market. That's why Ubuntu guys want to make it pretty, and even agreed to include binary modules - the goal is to win at all costs. After than they can get more generous and fair, and finally close their bug #1.
Would you really like to invite MS to sue the crap out of every ex MS developer claiming code taint?
:-)
No? Didn't think so either.
Insert
In previous posts, I've made it very clear how I firmly disapprove of Novell's selling of their soul.
That being said, I see no problem with this. With the likelihood of developers on the project scratching their heads and wondering what they should do, he extended an invitation. It's up to them whether to accept. It isn't surprised that some on both sides would disapprove and feel threatened.
I can see where some would think this is in bad taste, but letting them know they have a place to go if they want one is a good thing IMO.
I don't think that Mark was saying "Hey, come to Ubuntu, we need more developers" or "You should leave Novell now!". It appears to be more of "Hey, if you're leaving, our distribution has got big fast and there is always an opening for someone we know is good at what they do". Well at least it appears that way to me - just a statement made with good intentions that may have been interpreted by others in a different way. Happens all the time...
:(){
damn /. for not being able to edit comments!
Michael == Mark
$20m $368 == $20m lot less than $348
Maybe he was insinuating the fact that he (Mark), does not have developers as good as those at Novell.
No.
Frankly, I find Canonical's latest Kubuntu release rather wanting and disappointing.
Ubuntu is the most successful distro. Not by accident either.
Folks at Ubuntu should borrow a leaf from Xandros and Freespire. These distributions actually work as advertised.
You're kidding, right?
I know this is an open invitation for flame bait, but what the hell... I wonder if opinions would change if Novell took a substantial portion of the money Microsoft is giving for pre-purchased SUSE support licenses (say $250 - $350M) and divided it amongst the open source community. Would that make Novell not-so evil and just a little dirty instead?
I'm guessing that Shuttleworth was merely making an offer to any disillusioned developers for openSUSE who may have been considering leaving anyway, in essence offering them a place to go if they do leave. As far as I know, a developer jumping ship from one distro can't just sign on to another distro all that quickly (at least, not for the larger ones), and this offer would just be to inform the developers that they're welcome to work on Ubuntu. After all, the Shuttleworth was polite in the offer, only questioning Novell's business decision rather than the quality of openSUSE. Granted he goes into detail on the structure of Ubuntu's community, but better to give some information than none at all.
But then, I'm rather ignorant of the politics between distros, so perhaps I missed something . . .
On one hand this post is blown out of proportion, probably just because it was written by Mark Shuttleworth. Whether he actually intended in his post to lure devs from openSuse to Ubuntu is hard to tell... If he had only posted "Hello", the fact that it's the openSuse list and the poster is the Big Man of Ubuntu would still make people believe he had an evil agenda, or whatnot.
On the other hand, as you will find out if you follow all those links in TFA+TFS, it appears *someone* at Ubuntu decided to ship binary drivers by default (!) in the next version of the OS. Now that is just wrong, for so many reasons. In any case, it doesn't show Ubuntu a pure-FOSS supporting distro. Some claim the decision was made with little or no community input.
And while the Novell/Microsoft deal is little more than corporate FUD, the binary driver issue and the world's most popular desktop disto's handling of the matter, is crucial. We need to pressure the hardware companies to release drivers, and Ubuntu may soon brutally undermine those efforts.
Mark, leave openSuse alone and do something about the binary driver issue. Please.
I am amazed that comments on his blog post are being deleted. I posted one around noon remembering him that ubuntu 6.10 uses novell software (gnome 2.16, which includes mono) and that he should be pushing novell to back out of the patent deal with microsoft instead of luring opensuse developers.
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
Someone sent an amusing response to the ubuntu mailing list:0 6-November/022578.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/20
Fabio Aquotte
-Recent announcements that closed source drivers would be default installed in Feisty Fawn is a concern for me, this is truly the edge of the slippery slope in some respects.
-The debacle with the art team and Edgy Eft (somewhat explained but I felt maybe a little too much of the SABDFL side was employed, similar to the proprietary drivers in Feisty)
-Now the open letter to OpenSUSE devs, that depending on how you read it might come across as a little disengenuous?
I can't say I'm totally turned off on Ubuntu, and the beauty of Linux is that there is always a distro to scratch your itch, but I am now waiting to see how Mark and Co handle the next few weeks/months to follow up with some of this behavior. I'm not jumping off any cliffs and I am definitely not assuming the worst about all of these things, but they do give me reason to pause.
For the first time in a while I'm distro shopping again, have to see how my laptop likes Fedora Core 6 one of these days. Or maybe things will play out and I"ll be handing out Feisty Fawn CDs to friends, time will tell...
Is there no wait and see how this turns out, or at first sign of a problem are people really bailing? Sure there's commercial interests vs non-commercial which make the initiatives and reactions different, but come on.
Maybe join one of the independent projects that support all distros if you really disagree....?
-m
http://www.invisik.com
Mr. Shuttleworth was not being in the slighest bit inflammatory. I think we're all rational people here, and it's perfectly reasonable to point out that, while this in no way reflects on the many excellent and ethical OpenSuSE developers, Novell has, in fact, been corrupted by NAZI MORMON MICROSOFT POD PEOPLE FROM THE BEYOND! DISCONNECT NOW OR BE ASSIMILATED!
I read "MS dev" as "dev working for MS", you took the (more sensible) option of "dev working ON MS".
In that case it gets more complicated, because the whole library porting problem shows up. But no, obviously your code is your code..
Insert
Hi dude!
:) you have all your life on front of you to keep on playing!
44 years old and you think you are getting older?
Come on! maybe at 70 years old you can say something like that but not at 44!!!
Stop your arthritis and keep playing Pacman, MoonPatrol, Phoenix, Galaxian, Mario Bros, Doom, Medal of Honor and DotA
------ hand fits giving
The best part; OpenSuse's satirical response _____________ Kubuntu Edgy User
To be successful, one thing you need is the 'Freedom to make mistakes'.
....) this certainly is silly.
Perhaps Novell made one, perhaps it did not; it depends on your perspective. But should that one action cause such wide-spread criticism, and calls to abandon the distro and the developers who worked behind it? Even while I have no comment on whether the Novell-MS deal was appropriate, I feel such a reaction is very sad. Is Open Source so fragile?? A fully commercial vendor meanwhile can make its mistakes, learn from it, correct it, move on.
For all the work the guys at Novell have put in (Gnome, Mono,
I have been a SUSE user for many years now, and _personally_ I find it the best. I have never really contributed to openSUSE, now I am thinking about how I can help the team in any small way I can.
Life is just a conviction.
Is he calling the developers to come because of the ethics of the deal OR selfishness reasons that they need developers?
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
Next day there will be a slashdot story title "Shark Muddleworth Tries to Lure Ubuntu Devs" about this letter titled "Invitation to ubuntu developers" sent by a "Shark Muddleworth" to the ubuntu-devel mailing list:
Canonical's recent decision to include proprietary GPL violating drivers in the default install, circumventing the copyright framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an ubuntu developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this fact, you may be interested in opensuseWe would be happy to help people who want to join the openSUSE community - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how openSUSE works you can communicate with the community (see http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate). A special introductory session is being organised for mid December, watch this space.
openSUSE is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a common vision. Such tools as the openSUSE build service (http://build.opensuse.org/) help empower our community.
If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of GPL violations, and focussing on creating the most usable Free software desktop, then please do join us.
I know that posting this message to an ubuntu list will be trolling^WControversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the Ubuntu product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Ubuntu leadership in their inclusion of non-gpled kernel modules linked to the GPLed kernel is disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL kernel programmers and contributors to Ubuntu, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. openSUSE is one option, as are Fedora, gnewsense other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
Some openSUSE members
_
Disclaimer:
Response to http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg0376 5.html,
intended to highlight the inappropriateness of the original mail.
Although based on facts, the above content is intended satirical and
not to attack ubuntu or offend.
And like most other self replicating life forms infected with "other" viruses, anything infected with the GPL becomes its carrier. The survival of the carrier, and hence the future of its DNA, can easily be attributed to the evolutionary decisions it makes. Think of the GPL as an umbrella under which competing Linux companies are occupied in an evolutionary race, where the viral GPL itself plays the role of a gene, a symbiotic relationship if you prefer. What happens to Linux companies who shoot themselves in the foot? Well, the genes responsible for this behavior cause the demise of said companies, and in the process get wiped out themselves (Lawyers?). These genes are most likely exceptions to the rule because such behavior is not widely observed. The GPL though, has enough hosts already. Move it!
Much of the GNOME development is heavily funded by Novell. As we now see, Novell is heavily funded by Microsoft. Unfortunately, GNOME is also the default Ubuntu desktop environment. So in a way, Ubuntu is directly using software developed by Microsoft.
I'm thankful that Shuttleworth and Canonical support Ubuntu as well as they do. And I'm thankful that they're against this nonsense that Novell has gotten themselves into. Frankly, I'd like to see them take it a step further, and eliminate GNOME as the default Ubuntu desktop. It will, of course, be easily installable if one so chooses to do so. But they should switch to a default desktop environment whose development isn't mainly funded by tainted money coming directly from Microsoft. Not only is it the morally correct thing to do, it also helps eliminate some of the uncertainty that the whole Novell-Microsoft deal has brought to the table.
KDE is the obvious environment to use instead of GNOME. Luckily, the Kubuntu effort has done much of the work towards integrating it with Ubuntu. Many people even find it to be of a higher quality than the default Ubuntu distribution. So in reality, it would not be a very difficult switch to make. Some GNOME fanatics would continue to use GNOME, but the rest of us would end up getting a default Ubuntu desktop environment that works very well, offers a high level of performance, and most importantly is free from the taint and uncertainty that Novell brings to the development process of GNOME.
"No"
"You're kidding, right?"
"Ubuntu is the most successful distro. Not by accident either."
Care to elaborate?
Did Microsoft hold secret talks with Novell prior to any public announcement to any agreement?
:) Google for yourself and see, there are a lot of juicy articles out there on this. And yes, I know about Xandros, my point is about where Corel Linux was headed.
If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.
I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.
Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:
"Corel Sells Out To Microsoft"
"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" @ CNN 10/16/2000
"Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal"
"Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source
"Microsoft Litigation" List - Educate yourself
I ask you: Who do YOU trust?
Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?
For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:
"Gates on Vista, Linux and more"
History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes.
Here's how it looks to me: Related Stories [+] Novell Gets $348 Million From Microsoft 308 comments
I have a fantasy in which OpenSuse collapses and the Novell BOD comes to its senses, fires Hovsepian, and repudiates the deal with MS. I would love to see something like this because I like Suse a lot.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Blog for Burgundavia wrote - "I feel that Mark's mail (and subsequent blog post) were not called for. Stuff like what Mark did is simply not done. I believe Ubuntu to be the technically better distribution but I absolutely respect the OpenSUSE people and the awesome work that they are doing. There is no need to poach developers and users from each other, especially in this manner."
... This is scatimonious blather that has no basis or reference point. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Mr. Shuttleworth's actions. One is free to participate, code and have freedom of association - WITHOUT the approval of others. Mr. Shuttleworth does not need this man's approval.
... no one should have to translate the writing on the wall ... meanwhile I hope that their distro is note divided and given to the Medes and Persians :D
First of all I never remember reading the Holy Linux Distro Guide to Distro Etiquette or the reference that says such activity is "is simply not done" or "thow shalt not poach another distro's coders"
In fact I have enjoyed Ubuntu and Debian and I have not really cared for Redhat/Fedora and Suse (mainly because I find apt technically superior and I have DLL hell with Redhat/Fedora - another rant which has been well covered).
By all means I hope he snarfs all the Suse coders
his emphasis
Ok, there's two, warring stereotypes here. First:
Did anyone else picture that being posted by Sir Fauntleroy Etherbottom III directly after his monocle flew right off into the crumpets?
"I dare say, this Shuttleworth fellow is the worst kind of bounder. This sort of thing is just not done!"
Second:
"Stuff like what Mark did"
Ok, Cletus, simmer down! Y'know cousin Mark ain't been right lately, not since his ol' smell hound done up and runned off.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
Why does that whole thing remind me of the Gnome announcement posted on the KDE mailing list on Aug 15 1997... Now that Miguel works at Novell would be interesting to hear what he thinks about that post :-)
Peter.
I've spent a good weekend of my life trying to get the wireless working with Fedora Core 6, along with Ubuntu; you're really going to attract developers with the half assed, half baked crap that seems to being pushed out by the opensource developers? get the damn product working properly, then maybe those "Microsoft developers" will view Linux as a viable platform to develop on, rather than some operating system for those who wish to waste a whole weekend on trying to get the damn parts working properly.
As for Shuttleworth, its about bloody time he piped down from his grand standing and actually got his damn distribution working correctly out of the box rather than jumping on every Microsoft and competitior bashing bandwagon that goes past his doorway, and instead, actually correct the deficiencies in his distribution; like the lack of WPA configuration and setup - no wpa-gui sucks, its broken and doesn't work.
The day I can dump a ditribution on his oh-so-generic laptop (Toshiba A100) and everything works out of the box, without distorted sound, constant wireless network dropping - then Linux will have made a success on the desktop, until then, it'll be relegated to the server and the desktops of those with way too much time on their hands.
Yeah, I'll get marked down, and a jihad declared on my ass because I *dare* question the almighty penguin agenda, but for christ sake, part of being an adult is accepting praise as well as acknowledging deficiencies and correcting them as they arrise - something which the Linux/OpenSource community is no very good at.
... is EXACTLY what would benefit Microsoft the most. Sowing the seeds of paranoia and distrust WITHIN your enemy's community is a classic tactic.
This is a sig. It is like every other sig in the world, except that it is mine, and it is different.
To me, it does not matter what someone else did/does. It doesn't make it right if it was wrong to begin with.
But I don't see any problem in letting people who MAY be unhappy with the current situation know what your views on the subject are and that they may find employment with you if they believe that your views more closely match their's.
Hell, we've had this discussion before. What if Microsoft managed a hostile take-over of Red Hat? Would you expect the coders to just accept that or would you expect them to take their knowledge and skills and move to a different distribution?
And would anyone be upset then that Mark was offering employment to them? I would not.
When the company you work with signs deals that you are opposed to (for whatever reason), then there is nothing wrong with someone else offering you a job.
Yes, but does MS have a video remix?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_AP3SGMxxM
Be heard || Be herd
MS/Novell offered a punch in the face to most linux users, blatantly, followed up by a threat of some unspecified legal action in the future. Shuttleworth offered an up-front hand out in friemdship. This is some how wrong? How?
I don't even use ubuntu but I can't see this as anything but a sincere offer. That some are seeing this as an insult might go to show how they are in shock and still in complete denial over what happened, that maybe they picked the wrong company to support. Stuff happens, things change, and a responsible adult will recognize when they have been shafted/conned and move on. Novell and MS are the bad guys here, maybe it's time for the "insulted" ones to drop the cognizant dissonance stance?
Want an obvious parallel where a lot of "true believers" finally had to recognize they had been conned and swallowed their false pride and moved on because they at least make an attempt to be responsible adults? The last US election. Millions of neocon supporters finally got adult enough to realise they had been conned by *liars* and didn't vote for those they might have voted for before, because data and events had finally come to a head and it was obvious who the bad guys were/are.
It's the same here lately in linux-land. Live in denial of the obvious data, or be a responsible adult and realise who your real friends are.
There's no shame or embarassment in being conned one time, it can happen to anyone, but to keep falling for the same con despite having the evidence shown to you that it is happening falls into some destructive cult-like behavior.
Go back in computer history and see what association with microsoft has done to company after company. Do you like what you see, or does it look...wrong?
Learn from history and move on, or keep falling for the con, a binary choice there. It might be a hard decision for some, but it is not hard to see..not hard at all.
Microsoft cannot defeat FOSS through their traditional means.
Microsoft has to, somehow, put a cage around it. It can be a big cage. It can be a HUGE cage. But Microsoft needs to put a cage around it.
Microsoft is trying that with this "patent agreement". It (with Novell's support) splits FOSS into two groups: "Microsoft supported" and "lawyers may sue you".
That gives Microsoft another chance to move the people from the "lawyers may sue you" group into the "Microsoft supported" group. And once they're there, they're in the cage and Microsoft can alter the rules how ever they want, whenever they want.
Which is why I have a problem with Novell's "patent agreement" with Microsoft. Particularly with how Novell is marketing it in Europe where they are pushing the "patent protection" as an important "feature" of SuSE.
how's he hurting anything? not like he's poking fun at them for being in bed with the enemy.
really, I mean people love to get worked up over the littlest things, how dare he suggest that I co-operate with someone else!!!!!
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Mark said something a little brassy that needed to be said.
Each of us must decide if the Novell/Microsoft deal changed the way we fundamentally view Novell and Suse. That is even more true of anyone developing a platform that is a part of this deal.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
For better or for worse, GTK is a very attractive GUI toolkit for commercial developers to code with. Hence, Sun, Redhat, and (recently) Novell all write their apps in GTK and use Gnome for the desktop environment. In fact, until very recently Suse was a holdout to this rule, and was very KDE and Qt centric. I would wager that Gnome has seen much more code from Redhat (and Sun) than it has from Novell. And Gnome is still very much a free desktop environment.
As an aside, I would like to point out that despite great protest from KDE fans, it looks like Gnome is winning the desktop wars. Trolltech aside, Gnome and GTK have the most commercial support behind them, and that support is really translating into a huge amount of momentum for Gnome. I have long been a Gnome user, and I remember just a few years ago when the number of KDE users vastly outweighed the number of Gnome users, and now it seems just the opposite. Given this trend, and they heavy investment that Canonical has made in Gnome, it really doesn't make sense for them to switch desktop environments.
#include ".signature"
Maybe the people jumping ship can help Ubuntu. Ubuntu is a good distro, but it still needs some work. For one it is ugly as hell. SUSE was very nice looking and well just pretty. The ones jumping ship can help make Ubuntu nicer looking, pretty. Although under no circumstances allow them near the update managment package system for Ubuntu. Granted Ubuntu needs some work with its update managment package system, but it is far better than SUSE. We dont want another fiasco happening to Ubuntu like SUSE with the 10.1 release.
So in a way, Ubuntu is directly using software developed by Microsoft.
That's total bullshit and pure FUD. I guess now that they've run out of technical arguments, the KDE zealots are changing their strategy and spreading FUD about licenses.
KDE is the obvious environment to use instead of GNOME.
KDE is a non-starter for commercial desktop environments because of the cost of Qt for commercial users: that's why Sun, IBM, Ubuntu, RedHat, Eclipse, and SuSE are all basing their major products on Gtk+, not Qt.
..of SuSE. SuSE looks good, mature, polished, professional, industrial, etc. It is not secret that SuSE always looked darn good. Unlike some other distros. Strongly IMO the GNOME themes that come with SuSE are very polished and not lacking in any department, an evidence of professional work.
Remember when Mr. Shuttleworth was calling for developers to improve the looks of Ubuntu? Well this is the same call. Let's get them when they are pissed. They got evident skills.
it looks like Gnome is winning the desktop wars.
Oh great! I just switched to KDE. That just figures.
P.S. I'm glad you said the number of KDE users outweighed the number of Gnome users, and not KDE users outweigh Gnome users. I'm a little sensitive about my excess poundage.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
> Don't have an open mailing list for OpenSUSE if you don't want to deal with sometimes unwanted comments.
That attitude sickens me. Just because a forum is not censored, does mean everybody has a moral right to post off-topic messages. You can do it, but it doesn't make you any less of an asshole if you do it. Quite the opposite, you were shown trust, and abused it.
I don't know about Ubuntu, but I think you don't understand the motivations of Debian developers very well.
http://outcampaign.org/
Please tell me - how many new significant technologies or apps have Ubuntu developers created during the last year? I saw the Novell guys work hard on mono and pretty interesting desktop features in mainstream Linux applications. Call me a troll but it'd be a great waste to see talented devs leave Novell and join a distro whose essential objective is... well... repackaging.
This is news for nerds? It matters? I could get more useful information from Entertainment Tonight.
I'm sure Mark would have no trouble finding more developers if he paid them...
You have a solid release schedule
we shall see
the 6 month release schedule is going to be a pita for those who run a lot of systems.
the 3/5 year lts schedule looks nice but its unproven as yet.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
It helps to put it in perspective. The nv drivers usually loaded at default don't work with The Geforce 6xxx or 7xxx series and can nuke bash by removing the cursor, even when later unloaded. To top it off, they did something to vesa that causes it to redraw windows VERY slowly on a Dual core with 2GB of RAM. So. Until they have a product worth mentioning, the fanatics should shut up and let me use something that works.
How do you kill that which has no life?
KDE is a non-starter for commercial desktop environments because of the cost of Qt for commercial users: that's why Sun, IBM, Ubuntu, RedHat, Eclipse, and SuSE are all basing their major products on Gtk+, not Qt.Have you evern seen a "commercial GNOME". I have, on Sun Solaris. And it sucks! Ok, I am a KDE man and don't like GNOME that much anyway but GNOME as it comes from Sun beat's it all in beeing ugly and primitive.
I think that commercial Unix vedors are just a lazy bunch bundeling the easiers option and even then only bundle the bare minimum.
Which reminds me: On Solaris I had to use Gedit (until I had a Gvim up and running - the only Gtk+ application I truely like) and Gedit was just Notepad kind of editor. I could swear that a few years ago, before I finally move to KDE for good, Gedit a looked more promising text editor. Has functionality been striped of Gedit? The same way functionality has striped of Evolution and Nautilus?
For the later two I know for shure - The GNOME comunity has bitten of more functionality then they could swallow bug free. And the the GNOME comunity has declared simlicity the new aim. It's not a bug we can't fix, It's a feature we don't offer any more.
Which brings me back to the pont simlicity is what commercial users want, not great tools. And they give a f**k that I, in a corse of a week lost at least one working day by having to use Gedit and basic Vi. And another day for me to compile GVim, GNU Grep, GNU Coreutil and GNU Findutil. Now Solaris is almost usable.
Martin
As an older guy who's been around the block a few times, I find ALL of this very amusing.
Now where's my fishing pole. Ah! Baby, quit playing with my zipper and help me find my friggen boat keys!
Why would it not be? For that matter, why would it not be okay to post a single, polite message along the lines of "Hey, we're doing great things over here and have openings if anyone's interested" even if the deal hadn't been made?
Spamming the list with repeated messages would be wrong, as would making threats, lying, etc. I don't see how a single, polite invitation to switch groups would be wrong at almost any time, though.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I just can't understand why Novell didn't see this...
--
Someone may just want to kill you even if you are paranoid
openSUSE is an opensource project. There are MANY developers that are not payed by Novell. Those that do get payed by Novell often put their free time into it as well.
Please don't think for them what they should do. Linux is about choice and an enourmous majority of the deveopers still stand by openSUSE. Some don't stand behind Novell, but they do stand behind openSUSE.
Those who wish top leave openSUSE as a developer will be smart enough to know that other projects might be interested in their knowledge.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Who knows waht the ex-novell people might bring with them that will serve to taint ubuntu. ( be it accidentally or intentionally )
Id say the entire crew is now taboo for life. Sux to be them.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Suse is not a distribution. Sure, they pay one or two GCC developers, one kernel developer one X.org person, etc. Redhat did that, cygnus, etc. It is a way to "control" open source and have a word on what's going on with the kernel/compiler/etc.
But apart from gcc/kernel everything else novell has funded only project that,
- divide the community
- are backdoors for the adoption of MS technologies
- bring "user-friendly" crap from windows to linux
- make windows look stable compared to what they sell as linux
On the other hand, ubuntu is a distribution without a compiler! so that makes it even worse.
Wanna do good? Fund debian, gentoo and openBSD.
Mark shuttleworth and Novell are working for not so different goals.
Ah, maybe that's why Debian founder made his own distro? And Mark, too? And that's why lots of good and properly motivated Debian were quick to jump on Ubuntu bandwagon when offered a salary for their hard work? Let's be pragmatic. We can all have philantropic ideas, but at the end of the day, everyone has to eat. Look who is making most of contributions to the kernel nowadays - Red Hat, Novell, and folks at OSDL. Even Debian with its philantropic motivation is torn apart nowadays with its new leader and DUNC-Tank. Call it troll, but that's how life is...
Guys, this is fake!
/ 22603/match=shark
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel
Ive been using Ubuntu since hoary, and personally im very disappointed with the decision of shipping binary drivers for default at feisty (and yes there are feasible alternatives to that).
Fortunately to us this is not the end, and as soon as launchpad specs for feisty +1 start i will make one against the default inclusion of binary drivers based on Ubuntu freedom ideology and technical problems (blobs suck at several support/use areas), and of course gather as much community support in the subject as possible.
def greetings(x): return {'friend': 'Howdy', 'enemy': 'Dye [sic]'}.get(x, 'g0 4w4y, l4m0r')
I don't agree with your "team" analogy. In this case it is more like the body has a deviant cell and the body now has to send its macrophages to kill and eat that cell to make sure it doesn't reproduce and cause a malignant growth.
And to your "team" analogy... if you did want to pursue it... it is flawed since we are not really all on the same team. Otherwise there would only be one distribution. If you are going to use the team analogy, it is more like we are in a league (the software sports league), and we have different divisions in the league (OSX, Windows, Linux, BSD, proprietary Unix, etc.) and different teams in the divisions (Linux: Redhat, Suse, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Debian, Mandriva, etc.; Windows: 2000, XP, Vista, etc.; prop. Unix: Solaris, HP-UX, AIX; etc.).
Humans always excel when in competition. Each division prefers their O/S type and generally would like to be able to work on that type of system all the time, which means convincing others that it is best. This goes down even to the sub-types. And in this case we have the intra-divisional rivalries (Suse versus Ubuntu versus Redhat etc). If people didn't think this way, you wouldn't have people trying to convince you that their distro is better. In fact, you wouldn't have other distros... if we were one team why would we? One distro tries to gain the upper hand, and if they do, others learn from it (the loser of a war or battle usually does better/wins the next time as they know they did something wrong).
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
The Lunix crowd has now started eating their own.
Stand back, buy some popcorn, and enjoy the show as the extremists start destroying each other... over the right to make free software.
4. Commercial customers and software companies drop Linux because of GPLv3
Why, pray tell, would they do that? Please consider, that GPL v3 is nowhere near ready. What do you know about GPL v3, that no one else knows?
Furthermore 5.-9. seem to be predicated upon 4. happening, so if it doesn't the rest won't either.
Privacy begins with
I can't imagine that the openSUSE developers are sticking around because the pay is good. Politics generally play a huge role in Linux. Chances are that those that disagree have already left. (Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6lzEhoXads)
To me, it just seems like a cocky PR move by Shuttleworth.
This was the right thing for Mark to do. He is giving them another avenue that will benefit the whole linux community instead of benefiting Microsoft and Novell. It is obvious that Novell will loose in several different ways and this is just one of them. Developers should look to more pure linux development paths instead of sticking to Novell, which could, in the end, taint their accomplishments.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
Go, Mark! All Microsoft is trying to do is split the community in ways that give it control. If they were actually trying to make it easier to use Linux, why not enter into a partnership with, say, Redhat? Making sure Microsoft doesn't succeed is going to require some unified vision, and if Mark can help point toward it, I say good for him!
Same here. So much for "Open" in open source ... :(
The GPL3 wants you to give the source code of your webservices, things like that.
The GPL3 wants you to not lock down your hardware platform if you need it, like TiVo.
The GPL3 will TRY (but it's already lost, the law won't permit it) to make you give the code even if you rent the hardware (like a router).
What about the GPLv3 is good for business? Please do tell ... all these changes with respect to patents and needing to share code for web services and the so-called "Tivo" clauses ... do you really think businesses want these liabilities?
He was referring to Shut The Fuck Up And Dance, the new Monkey Boy distribution that is better equipped than any other to take over the DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS and ultimately win the war against Microsoft on MS' own terms by embracing and extending the Redmond tactics as their own.
Spine World
I'd really like to add a new clause to the GPL (the LGPL already has a clause similar to this)..
If you refuse to abide by any of the Sections above, you are implicitly permitting modification of the work for any use and reverse engineering for the creation and debugging of such modifications.
If that was added to the linux kernel's license, I think that would sort out NVIDIA and ATI. They would no longer be able to distribute their stuff (which is legally dubious already) without providing us with the right to reverse engineer their work and redistribute it (which in some locales is a right we already have). We need to crush these people.
How we know is more important than what we know.
This is a regular occurrence in the software world. Offended developers should perhaps try growing up a little.
Who moved my sig?
That'a an excellent example. When Linux first went trolling for Minix people, he carefully posted a very humble-sounding, polite message (the sort of thing you don't hear from him too often these days).
The Mark Shuttleworth message leads off with a heavy political jab at Novell that I would guess is of somewhat dubious factual accuracy -- at least I don't know quite what he's talking about:
That sounds to me like the Bruce Perens take on Novell's announcements, it may even be the groklaw take, it's not clear to me that it's what Novell was really saying (at a guess, they didn't realize what they were getting into, as weird as that sounds -- maybe they've been reading slashdot, and they figured that TLAs like GPL/FSF/GNU were all just symptoms of silly "zealotry").
Anyway, all the posturing that everyone is doing about how Shuttleworth has violated some great unspoken covenant or some such, it all comes down to the tone of what he said. Imagine if he had made it short, made it seem folksy, and casual: then this great issue would just evaporate.
(My favorite quote from the Groklaw article: "As for Novell, if history means anything, it will end up Microsoft roadkill. It's so funny to me that nobody ever remembers what comes *after* the Embrace.".)
"What do you know about GPL v3, that no one else knows?" I do not know anything else about GPL v.3 than everyone else: There are issues in it (in the draft) wich would be very hard to accept for commercial users and commercial software companies.
...and just for the record : I myself do not disagree with these issues.
I can't take full credit for this comment -- the point was made by someone else on /. in another thread -- but, look. To say this agreement with Novell is really anything about interoperability smacks me as being pretty disingenuous.
What company has full and complete access to all Windows source code and complete and thorough documentation for all Microsoft protocols? Microsoft does. In addition, like every other person in the world, Microsoft also has full and complete access to Linux kernel source code and all the protocols and methods used on Linux systems. And this has been true since, what? 1991? And Microsoft also has massive resources in terms of developer bodies to throw at software projects. So if there's any company on earth that could "bring Windows and Linux closer together," it's Microsoft. Why the hell would it need Novell to work on interoperability?
Breakfast served all day!
Can you make it work and look pretty much exactly like Windows? It would be nice if the small army of windows trained teens I have running my business could install your distro instantly and easily like they seem to be able to do with Windows and whatever stupid game it is they are playing these days. GOD DAMNED KIDS! GET BACK TO WORK OR I'LL FIRE BOTH OF YOU AND HIRE ONE MILLION CHINESE SLAVES!
-EA Games CEO
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Mark is clearly not Shuttleworthy of being the Benevolent Dictator for Life of Ubuntu.
Yup mates, I brushed my teeth this morning.
The GPL3 wants you to give the source code of your webservices, things like that.
Please elaborate - what's the scenario?
The GPL3 wants you to not lock down your hardware platform if you need it, like TiVo.
I'm don't know why the company behind the TiVo needs to lock down the hardware, but then again, I've never had a TiVo, or Cable, or even a TV for the last 7 years.
Anyway, when GPLv3 arrives, the company might decide it's cheaper to stay with Gnu/Linux and remove the lock, or go with BSD instead. I couldn't care less.
Privacy begins with
I agree with the above; even with this 'second in command' decapitation attack, MS is simply trying to hold on for a few more years. They want to give Vista a reasonable chance of being the cash cow they rely on.
/.'ers are lining up to give the new MS infant: Vista.
What will happen when everyone (in the general public) knows what a Knoppix disk is? What will happen when those disks hold high definition volumes on high speed drives?
What will happen when server community becomes saturated with highly flexible and easily deployable virtualization?
Right now MS is trying NOT to devolve into a gaming company which is the only area recently they HAVE shown true innovation and leadership.
In short:This might be a 300+ million dollar insurance policy against the inevitable ass-ripping you
What about the GPLv3 is good for business?The GPL was never about business. GPLv3 is no different, it is neither good nor bad for businesses.
... all these changes with respect to patentsPatents on software were a (ridiculously) bad idea from the start, and will eventually be ruled illegal anyway, but currently software patents are in effect in the US, so they need to be held at a distance with means such as this.
... do you really think businesses want these liabilities?I fail to see how the "TiVo" clause can be a liability. The company is denying users the right to run a modified version of the software, by technical means, because the GPLv2 doesn't specifically disallow this. If the company didn't want users (ever) to have that right, they probably should have chosen a BSD-variant for the base system instead. Now, have we beaten that dead horse(TiVo) enough, or does it need more?
Then again, if a business has based their current businees model on using GPLv2 software to screw users, this will probably be over with GPLv3.
Please do tell
and needing to share code for web servicesI think I need an example here. Does this relate to the "Corresponding Source"-part?
and the so-called "Tivo" clauses
Privacy begins with
But how many of those stories have the head hunter walking into a cube farm and saying, "Hey guys, We are having a job fair across the street."
I can say it happened at least once because it happened to me. It wasn't a professional headhunter and I wasn't in a cubicle, but I WAS asked, while I was on the job, by a customer if I was open to changing employers. We've had former employees poached away by customers/other contractors on a project before. The labour market is extremely tight here, especially for skilled labour, tradespeople and professionals.
I see no problem with Mark Shuttleworth inviting developers of OpenSuse.
;)
Nobody was coerced nor threatened.
He is presenting them an opportunity that was taken away by the Novell-Microsoft deal to FOSS OpenSuse developers - that is, the right to create income stream from the contributions they made.
It's not Suse vs. Ubuntu. It's about community and ecology. This is about everybody having a home in FOSS.
Mine are more like the full-fledged than like the one you call "freshly installed" etc.
Maybe your "fresh" installs are from the CD and mine was from the DVD? You know, from the DVD we run tasksel during the install, and when you taskselect "development", "graphics", etc, the whole thing comes?
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
It says DVD -- use the torrent link!!!!:
http://www.kubuntu.org/download.php#latest
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
OpenSuse ok, but the commercial product is dead to me.