Homeland Security Tracks Information of Travelers

feuerfalke writes "Homeland Security recently disclosed a plan regarding an Automated Targeting System, or ATS, that would generate a 'terrorist risk rating' based on information collected about the traveler. This information would include things such as where they are from, how they paid for tickets, their motor vehicle records, past one-way travel, seating preference and the meals they ordered in-flight. These ratings have now been assigned to millions of international travelers, including Americans, and the ATS is exempt from many provisions of the Privacy Act — one cannot view their rating or the information used to generate it."

Comments

Sounds like....

[justkarl]

...the makers of this system need to work on Netflix's reccomendation system.

Re:Sounds like....

[DarthTator]

I was gonna in Seinfeldian fashion "Now only if they could track my bags!"

Re:Sounds like....

[value_added]

My guess is that it's more like the Slashdot moderation system. Mod +5 Safe or -1 Looks Like ann Arab to Me. Either way, I expect the courts will, at some point in the future, get their chance to meta moderate.

Re:Sounds like....

[__aaclcg7560]

Nah... Remember that the Homeland Security is a front for corporate interests. Marketing departments will pay good money to know what Joe Blow was doing if he wasn't blowing up the plane.

Re:Sounds like....

[russ1337]

I can expand on that.

From the Mod FAQ:

Also, if a single user is moderated down several times in a short time frame, a temporary ban will be imposed on that user... a cooling off period if you will. It lasts for 72 hours, or more for users who have posted a ton.

The same as being sent to GITMO. No meta mods (courts), just 'other peoples opinion' when the victim^H^H^H^H^H^H *cough* terrorist doesn't follow Slashdot groupthink.

Re:Sounds like....

[Aqua_boy17]

Just to make it easier , I think we should rate potential hijackers and suicide bombers as -5 Flamebait, don't you?

Re:Sounds like....

[mi]

Marketing departments will pay good money to know what Joe Blow was doing if he wasn't blowing up the plane.

They already know. Federal Government is just catching up on the use of technology employed by marketeers and creditors.

Re:Sounds like....

[ectal]

Dangerous. What if security ends up trusting the terrorists that are +5 Funny?

Re:Sounds like....

[Yvanhoe]

I warn you, if you keep making these nasty remarks, we'll have to send you in CowboyNeal's reeducation camp in Cuba...

Re:Sounds like....

[telso]

My guess is that it's more like the Slashdot moderation system.

So what you're saying is I should start screaming "Microsoft is evil!" in the customs hall?

First post

[technicalandsocial]

gains you a TRS/ATT level of... 6

Re:First post

[Gyppo]

Ohhh so close!

It's True

[ClamIAm]

Terrorists looooove chicken with a side of fresh veggies. Good work, TSA.

Re:It's True

[Chaffar]

It just means that if you're an 18-25 year old male from any country that ends with -stan and you ordered your meal to be halal then you're flagged as potential terrorist. It's as simple as that.

Re:It's True

[moatra]

Granted, it's been a while since I've flown anywhere, but since when did the airlines start offering a choice of meals that could *ever* reflect any tendencies of a person besides the airlines being cheap? ("Salad or chicken, sir?")

Re:It's True

[russ1337]

Attendant: Pork sausages or Spaghetti and Meatballs?
Passenger1: Sausages

Attendant: Pork sausages or Spaghetti and Meatballs?
Passenger2: Sausages

Attendant: Pork sausages or Spaghetti and Meatballs?
Passenger3: Meatballs

....... Some time later.......

Attendant: Pork sausages or Spaghetti and Meatballs?
Passenger n : Sausages
Attendant: Oh, I'm sorry, we are all out, we only have Halal Chicken.
Passenger n: ah no problem, chicken it is.

CIA: Hey, some guy just ate the Halal Chicken. Flag him.

Re:It's True

[Hijacked Public]

This system is used for international flights. All of the international flights I've been on with US carriers offered choices like Kosher, vegetarian, sometimes vegan, etc. Kosher is the way to go on an El Al flight, they put some serious effort into it.

If you think meal service is limited on US domestic flights, travel to sunny Africa and try the world's best named airline, 1Time. More Nice, Less Price. Your plane might even have tires mounted on the wheels!

Re:It's True

[moeinvt]

"Terrorists looooove chicken with a side of fresh veggies. Good work, TSA."

Lower your score. Order the pork chops.

Re:It's True

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time I've ever booked a flight that actually included meal service, I was given a choice of requesting a vegetarian, kosher, etc. meal. Note that this is done when you purchase the ticket, not on the flight. They need to know in advance so they can make sure the proper number of special meals are loaded, they can't carry enough of them to satisfy random demand for them in flight.

I've never actually tried it myself, but I've seen other people try it and it seems to be straightforward. Of course the decreasing number of flights that actually offer meals at all means that this is becoming less common.

Re:It's True

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Being watched makes me feel so much safer.

Re:It's True

[XFilesFMDS1013]

Granted, it's been a while since I've flown anywhere, but since when did the airlines start offering a choice of meals that could *ever* reflect any tendencies of a person besides the airlines being cheap? ("Salad or chicken, sir?") You can almost always get a vegetarian option, as well a limited number of different ones for people with allergies (non-peanut probably being the most common) or religious backgrounds. The great thing about something like the veg. meal, is that they tend to be fresher then the others meals, mainly because they don't make so many of them.

Re:It's True

[b0s0z0ku]

best named airline, 1Time.

Do their planes only take off 1Time? Or are you so afraid of flying after the experience that you only use the airline's services 1Time? And the .aero TLD is just ugly in a URL.

-b.

Re:It's True

[b0s0z0ku]

CIA: Hey, some guy just ate the Halal Chicken. Flag him.

Nah, the Halal Chicken will just be laced with Rohypnol to make all who consume it unconscious for the duration of the flight.

-b.

Re:It's True

[SnowZero]

I cannot believe you people. So, how many of you believe that Bush caused 9/11 by "missing obvious signs" that an attack was imminent? Now, when they go looking for those signs, everyone complains about losing freedom. You cannot have it both ways. Personally, I like freedom, thus I don't blame Bush for 9/11. However, since just about everyone did blame the government, now we have these idiotic systems put in place by the government to try to find that impossible needle in a haystack. Congratulations, everyone who blamed the government for 9/11 is now getting what they deserve. The funniest part is how people will quote security experts like Bruce Schneier, but only look at part of it and miss the whole message. He advocates that if we want to live with privacy, we have to accept that terrorist attacks will happen, and we would spend our resources most efficiently on emergency preparation rather than attack prevention. Since terrorist attacks do far more damage in the media than they do to actual lives, this actually makes sense.

On to the particular issue at hand, the whole point of feeding in all these variables into a statistical model is that a computer can do this better than a human. It's called data-mining, and its been going on in industry for ten years at least. While a human may just end up saying "He looks arab", the computer will base its decision only on what the variables actually suggest based on past data. This is more fair, not less. You can even set it up so that unless a person is flagged, no human ever gets to look at the personal data. You all joke about what the person is eating, but statistical models work best when you toss them all the possible features, and let the system figure it out. Anyone who's ever worked on machine learning would realize that humans cannot always judge what is a relevant feature and what isn't, and that sometimes a computer can learn a model that works well, but at first seems completely off the wall. Google "mushroom dataset" and get some background to this sort of thing with machine learning. There are rules which can calculate with very high probability if a mushroom is poisonous, yet the rules make no sense to the human observer. Welcome to data-mining; If you want to find a needle in a haystack, that's the way to go.

And about that data... the airline already had it, and probably already gave it to their marketing, who may have sold it to "partners". Other companies have been collecting data on people for many years. There is really nothing new about this information being collected. The only "outrage" is that a computer program gets to see it rather than only airline security personel.

Also, of course will not be allowed to see the model. If you have the model, you know how to avoid being flagged. That's like asking the local police for their driving schedule, or expecting highway patrol to reveal to you where all their speed traps are on a given day. That is simply not going to happen, and the reasons are obvious. An automated version such screening does not really represent anything new.

Now, of course, you can still be outraged if you want. Personally I'd rather have the privacy, and ditch such a system. However, don't be a hypocrite and expect the government to stop the next attack. Accept the 1 in 50,000 risk of being directly affected by an attack, and get on with your life... Worry about the real dangers that are likely to affect your life (bad diet, disease, accidents), rather than what Bruce Schneier calls "movie plot threats".

Re:It's True

[UncleTogie]

A problem I'd like to point out with this next line:

The whole point of feeding in all these variables into a statistical model is that a computer can do this better than a human.

If computer pattern-recognition is THAT advanced, then why do all the "image pattern recognition" verification routines work as well as they do? I've YET to see a decent PRS that works.

If you know of one, please fill us in!

Re:It's True

[Fishead]

Yeah, but its still gonna suck because it doesn't have any meat in it.

Re:It's True

[Macadamizer]

Exactly, you have to order when you buy the ticket.

I usually order the muslim meal, if offered. One, because it's usually a LOT better than the regular options (often it's chicken kabobs and couscous or something like that), second, hopefully it will confuse someone somewhere...

Of course, I may end up getting extraordinarily rendited somewhere, so maybe I should rethink my meal choices...

Re:It's True

[shams42]

I do agree with everything you've said about data mining. My question is, how are they going to train the system? It seems like they'd need a lot of terrorist incidents in order to use data mining techniques to empirically develop decision rules.

Re:It's True

[amRadioHed]

I cannot believe you people. So, how many of you believe that Bush caused 9/11 by "missing obvious signs" that an attack was imminent? Now, when they go looking for those signs, everyone complains about losing freedom. You cannot have it both ways.

They are looking in the wrong places. They didn't need to change anything to catch these sings, they just needed to pay attention to the security briefings that were provided to them. Competence stops terrorists, not privacy intrusions.

Well ending foreign policies that act to dehumanize people in Muslim countries would also help.

Re:It's True

[calzones]

brilliant post

Re:It's True

[SnowZero]

Pattern recognition on computers is approximately equal for the two, but human performance is quite different. Vision is easy for humans because 1/4 of our brain is devoted to the task. When you look at an arbitrary classification tasks, it is an entirely different matter (evaluating a game board, for example). This is why we beat computers at vision tasks, and they beat us at board games. For a data-mining effort, you don't usually have "rich" features like an image, but simple ones such as "the number of days a person bought the ticket in advance". The human will not have insight into the task without a lot of effort, and will have to work against personal biases which could be wrong.

Sometimes you can use human help to boost the system. If there is a really good expert at a task, you can hire them to help guide the design by working with machine learning experts. You can't afford to train and hire such a domain expert to work 24/7 at every US airport however. That's the idea of a so-called "Expert system", although unfortunately that term got watered down by bad research when it became a research fad. The original idea is still quite sound.

The other, more technical reason for the vision-vs-classification performance is that vision involves a much larger, more distorted space. A 320x240 color image has 230 thousand dimensions -- which can bleed into one another (under translation and rotation), and can scale arbitrarily (due to light source changes). Something like a security classifier is dealing with "only" 10-30 dimensions, and the variables are more independent. For example, the "ticket bought with cash" variable won't bleed into the "meal selection" variable.

Which is not to say this system will work all that well anyway. By definition, there won't be much training data for "real terrorists", so the model will not learn as well as it could with a larger positive example set. Thus if you want a decent rate of catching the bad guys, there will be many false positives. But that's how they're treating the system anyway; It's not that you get thrown in jail if a computer thinks you are a risk, but rather it means an already existing security agent will consider your case. Think of it as the computer equivalent of a metal detector.

Is it worth the cost and decreased privacy? Probably not. However, as long as we have unrealistic expectations of our security system, projects like this will flourish.

Re:It's True

[SnowZero]

They are looking in the wrong places. They didn't need to change anything to catch these sings, they just needed to pay attention to the security briefings that were provided to them. Competence stops terrorists, not privacy intrusions.

To some extent that's kind of saying "The needle was right there, poking out of the side of the haystack; Why didn't you see it?". The closest thing to a smoking gun was the untranslated NSA phone intercept (which they translated a few days too late). How much do you want to bet that it came from an illegal wiretap?

Well ending foreign policies that act to dehumanize people in Muslim countries would also help.

Improving our international relations with Muslim countries would certainly help (mainly through better choice of actions on our part). That's a long-term solution though, so it requires patience I'm not sure the public or our government have. That is quite a shame. Also, even if the Mideast finds a solution for peace someday, terrorism will continue in the future anyway, with new groups causing it. It seems to be the modern way to wage war -- using the media to magnify a militarily minor action to affect an entire nation's populace.

Re:It's True

[Anonymous Coward]

Well ending foreign policies that act to dehumanize people in Muslim countries would also help.

What world do you live in, son? The biggest causes of people being dehumanized in Muslim countries are:
1. Islam itself (what else do you expect from a religion where the message is "submission"?)
2. other Muslims

Sorry to piss on your parade, but George W. and the Jooooooos aren't even a close second.

Re:It's true

[Thomas Shaddack]

Nah, the Halal Chicken will just be laced with Rohypnol to make all who consume it unconscious for the duration of the flight.

Sounds like a superior alternative to the in-flight movies.

If you think Dems will stop this, think again

[Anonymous Coward]

Because if the Dems, now that they control the House and Senate, will put a stop to this, guess who will get blamed for the next terrorist attack?

so mysterious....

[drfrog]

its sexy :|

Lies my teacher told me

[yourpusher]

I spent a good part of my childhood just a few miles away from the lucky side of the Iron Curtain. One of the things that our teachers told us was so bad about East Germany was the fact that they "kept files on their citizens! Normal people, like you and me!"

So what do we tell the kids, today?

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[SydBarrett]

Just call them "freedom files".

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[Tackhead]

> I spent a good part of my childhood just a few miles away from the lucky side of the Iron Curtain. One of the things that our teachers told us was so bad about East Germany was the fact that they "kept files on their citizens! Normal people, like you and me!"
>
> So what do we tell the kids, today?

We point out that one in three East Germans was helping STASI with citizen surveillance, (no doubt with similar numbers for the USSR and KGB) but only a few thousand upper Party members were actually part of the actual

And that "in Soviet Russia, the people watched the government."

What we tell our kids is that we're better than they were, because we do things the other way around.

America. What a country.

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[Tackhead]

Bah. Fingerslip before post that wastes a paragraph = teh suck. No doubt my terror rating just went up for that.

> I spent a good part of my childhood just a few miles away from the lucky side of the Iron Curtain. One of the things that our teachers told us was so bad about East Germany was the fact that they "kept files on their citizens! Normal people, like you and me!"
>
> So what do we tell the kids, today?

We point out that one in three East Germans was helping STASI with citizen surveillance, (no doubt with similar numbers for the USSR and KGB) but that only a few thousand upper Party members were actually part of the actual day-to-day government, and they were vastly outnumbered by the people who were actually doing the spying.

And therefore, we can say with straight face: "in Soviet Russia, the people watched the government."

What we tell our kids is that we're better than they were, because we do things the other way around.

America. What a country.

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[AVonGauss]

Theoretically, there is one major difference, "the people" still elect officials in the United States. If people really don't like what's going on, they should be more active and find out about their elected officials and where they stand on issues that are important to them.

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmmmm. That was a bad thing?

Guess she wasn't aware of the guard towers with armed guards with shoot to kill orders, the dog patrols, minefields, the razor sharp stamped steel border fence topped with concertina wire and the PM12 mines that were mounted on the fence if you tried to climb it. Plus the fact that the East Germans told their people all that stuff was there for their protection.

Hmmmmm. She's right. Having a government file on you is bad. Pffffft.

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhhh! I love the smell of shameful moral equivalence in the morning...

I suppose it's to be expected from your part of the world, Schatz... What's really telling, in my experience, is that the people I meet who truly appreciate what a great place America is are usually from the unlucky side of the former Iron Curtain. You know...the ones who actually LIVED under the kind of evil that you and your ilk now attempt to project onto the USA. I trust their opinions far more than the blather of some socialist, Ami-hating Euroweenie.

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. nice. so funny on so many levels.

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[chefjoeardee]

You've got to learn to use quotes more accurately. If by "the people" you mean anyone willing to go far enough, pay enough, and be unconstitutional enough to do what it takes to ensure a political position; then yes, "the people", is correct.

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[puppers]

That's a keeper... I'd be good to see people start using that...
--
I'm lovin' it

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[kabocox]

I spent a good part of my childhood just a few miles away from the lucky side of the Iron Curtain. One of the things that our teachers told us was so bad about East Germany was the fact that they "kept files on their citizens! Normal people, like you and me!"

So what do we tell the kids, today?

Call them Santa's Black Op Elf Files. Santa has to know whose been naughty or nice!

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[jo42]

> So what do we tell the kids, today?

Heil Bush!

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[Pharmboy]

It would be easy to do without all this paperwork tho.

Anyone who isn't bitching about the crappy service, smaller seats, long lines, lack of flights and high prices are obviously up to no good. Any red blooded 'merican who flys at least once a year can easily see that the quality has gone to shit over the last few years.

True story: Wife and I had a stort flight into DFW before flying back to GSO. (I used to fly ~3x per year) They were only serving WATER (ok, fine....). Then they ran out after serving half the plane because they only brought ONE bottle of water. (not the funny part yet.)

When he apologized to me and asked if there was something else I would like (I thought he said they only had water???), I politely said no, as I didn't want to be a financial burden on the airline.

He said "well, we normally have two bottles of water, they just forgot to stock another between flights". I paid over $1100 for two tickets, 60 days in advance for this. American Airlines, Nov 25 of this year. It wasn't that I was thirsty, this was just the icing on the cake.

Next year, we will just drive the two days, stay in a really nice hotel, maybe take a day off in another town, see a bit of America, eat at nice places and spend LESS without having to deal with the asshat airlines.

Re:Lies my teacher told me

[flyingfsck]

Tell them that it is time to move a few miles east?

Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[davidsyes]

Can't these regurgitated stories be presented as UPDATES? I KNOW I read somewhere about this. Probably even

http://www.visualanalytics.com/

is a hidden awardee of the analysis aspects of things. I wonder if we'll have another story on what was it, Time Magazine, about the current cadge/cabal whining that the magazine egregiously tipped the hand to terrorists about how money exchange and such were monitored to locate terrorists. The thing is, VISUAL ANALYTICS had for maybe a YEAR posted on their website how capable their software was and how successfully their software was used by government agencies domestically and abroad.

So, it MIGHT be informative if we find out that Visual Analytics is combing the data to look for those who laundered money, started or operated shell companies, illegally diverted restricted materials or technology or got caught doing so, and so on.

Captch: "sleuth"

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[EMeta]

Perhaps you think we are being too well informed about programs like these?

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

They probably only just now finished the alpha testing.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[ScentCone]

Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

Hell, about four years ago, I was flagged for a super-duper security check at the Denver airport because I was flying on a last-minute one-way flight (bought with a debit card!) as I rushed in to put out a fire at a hosting operation. So there's me, looking more than a little bedraggled, with nothing but the clothes on my back and a laptop bag stuffed with some mysterious-looking replacement parts. The very nice, but very thorough inspectors told me that I should completely expect every flight I take for the following several years to end up going exactly the same way, because the profiling has some real inertia to it. They were correct, as I've gotten the (polite/thorough) treatment every time since, even when traveling on more conventionally purchased tickets. Maybe it's my warm, fuzzy personality.

Not really. It's behavioral profiling - a lot more effective than skin-based profiling. Something that doesn't seem to get the coverage it's supposed to in recent flaps like the imam-fest the other day. (hint: loudly uttering "allah" and dispersing your group of six guys in pairs to the wrong parts of the airplane rather invites a look at your behavior). I may have the imam hair, and perhaps my shoes COULD explode after standing in them for 48 hours straight in front of a rack of servers, but I don't tend to send a lot of those other signals. On the other hand, I've met some very nice TSA people - they keep the best ones on the sidelines for the personal inspections, it seems.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[foobsr]

it MIGHT be informative if we find out that Visual Analytics is combing the data to look for those who laundered money, started or operated shell companies, illegally diverted restricted materials or technology or got caught doing so

Unlikely; too risky for those who control the governments (globally).

CC.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

>loudly uttering "allah"

A religious obligation for over a billion people five times a day.

The other noteworthy point is that *after* they were dogsniffed, searched and cleared, US Airways refused to sell them replacement tickets. US Airways pointed them to other airlines, which proves it wasn't a safety issue.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[ScentCone]

A religious obligation for over a billion people five times a day.

And, for a group of people that are totally aware that quite a few people have uttered that same phrase right before blowing themselves up, doing so loudly (as the witnesses in the terminal say they did) is just plain provocative.

US Airways pointed them to other airlines, which proves it wasn't a safety issue.

No, it was reasonable refusal to do business with people who, clearly (since they weren't carring explosives, etc) engaging in a deliberate stunt. They carried out several very deliberate actions absolutely guaranteed to imply trouble - specifically so that they could make a scene about it and get the political correctness machinery working in their favor. Personally, I think it backfired, because they were being such asses about it. I hope it did, anyway.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[Anonymous Coward]

And, for a group of people that are totally aware that quite a few people have uttered that same phrase right before blowing themselves up, doing so loudly (as the witnesses in the terminal say they did) is just plain provocative.

Yeah, because if a few people blew themselves up just after uttering "Jesus" then Christians would change their ways our of sensitivity for the rest of us. This is so plausible that I can see why any utter imbecile might momentarily believe it before coming to their senses.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[hab136]

The other noteworthy point is that *after* they were dogsniffed, searched and cleared, US Airways refused to sell them replacement tickets. US Airways pointed them to other airlines, which proves it wasn't a safety issue.

The only things US Airways can do is 1. Call the cops (already done) 2. Not sell them a ticket 3. Possibly sue, which they are probably looking at now. US Airways does not have arrest powers.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[crabpeople]

"but I don't tend to send a lot of those other signals. "

Like being brown for instance?

News flash: White people get treated nice by homeland security. Hardly worth the anecdote. Submission to authority no doubt spoke in your favour as well. Did you out any neighbours as suspected terrorists? I bet they appreciated the help.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[forkazoo]

And, for a group of people that are totally aware that quite a few people have uttered that same phrase right before blowing themselves up, doing so loudly (as the witnesses in the terminal say they did) is just plain provocative.

So, if somebody says, "Hamburger, no pickles" before blowing themselves up, suddenly I have to change my order for lunch? Peacefully praying is not provocative, any more than ordering a hamburger. If somebody prayed to Jesus before getting on a plane because they are afraid of flying, should they be removed as a provocative terrorist?

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[ScentCone]

Yeah, because if a few people blew themselves up just after uttering "Jesus" then Christians would change their ways our of sensitivity for the rest of us. This is so plausible that I can see why any utter imbecile might momentarily believe it before coming to their senses.

Hmmm. First, I don't seem to actually be hearing about a lot of Jesus-chanting suicide bombers. At least, not outside of hypothetical conversations. That's really rather in contrast to a lot more than a "few" suicide bombers working for a particular, identifiable team. Really now: how many people you know celebrate suicide bombers as cultural heros? Honestly, now.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[ScentCone]

If somebody prayed to Jesus before getting on a plane because they are afraid of flying, should they be removed as a provocative terrorist?

No.

Now: you and five other people do that, and do it very loudly as a group in the terminal. And, of course, you do this in the context of several years of recent history during which your bretheren have a well-documented history of doing the same thing right before an attack in a public space. But never mind that... then, you and your five friends get on a plane, and ask for odd things: like, those of you that are not large, fat people ask for seatbelt extensions, which you then put on the floor by your feet. Then, despite having your request declined, you get up from your seats, and pair up: two walk up to the first class section and site together, two go to the rear of the plane, and two take the middle near the exits.

Gee, do you think that's maybe a little different than some Jesus-type having a little I'm-a-nervous-flier prayer? Pray all you want: but the actions of those six guys (ALL of their actions) have to be taken as a whole. They were deliberately provoking their audience with this stunt, exactly to get the camera time they got, so that they could talk about how people don't treat them nicely. Gee.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[Anonymous Coward]

how about doing that before getting to the terminal? or is this praising allah on a plane a pre-req to getting the virgins nowadays? next thing you know, people entering government in the US will start swearing on the Koran instead of the Bible

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[ScentCone]

News flash: White people get treated nice by homeland security. Hardly worth the anecdote

I know you have a lot of trouble with context, so: how pleasantly the people I was talking to talked to me wasn't the point of the anecdote. That (being white, a citizen, a long-time resident at the same address, etc) I was singled out for a look-over, and that my profile within their system was going to flag me for the same thing (four years ago) was interesting. Period.

Submission to authority no doubt spoke in your favour as well.

I bet you hated crossing guards on the street out in front of your school, too. Regardless, it wasn't "submitting to authority." I was helping the people who are tasked with helping to keep my flight free of exploding things and knives to get their job done quickly, and helping them to treat everyone they have to deal with that day a little better by not making their job miserable for them. You're really a piece of work, I must say. Have you ever held a public-facing service job of any type? It's really enlightening.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, i feel sorry for them... perhaps we should look into reparations? of course, this was NOT their fault, the man has it in for them

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[DreamingReal]

It's behavioral profiling - a lot more effective than skin-based profiling.

How is it effective? In order to defeat it, all one needs to do is book a round-trip flight, purchased with a credit card, well in advance of the flight. BOOM. No more plane. The only terrorists such nonsense will stop are those who have procrastination problems.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[plantman-the-womb-st]

Then, despite having your request declined, you get up from your seats, and pair up: two walk up to the first class section and site together, two go to the rear of the plane, and two take the middle near the exits.

I love this part of the story, it's really great. The first stories I read about this incident said there were five Imams, and they were sitting in their assigned seats. Seems the story keeps getting added to. The other bit is that is was suspect because they all kept checking on one of them. People also fail to mention that the man being checked up on by his companions was blind

I mean really, how big was that fish?

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[ScentCone]

How is it effective? In order to defeat it, all one needs to do is book a round-trip flight, purchased with a credit card, well in advance of the flight. BOOM. No more plane. The only terrorists such nonsense will stop are those who have procrastination problems.

I don't mean to suggest that the single feature of the flight I describe (my use of a one-way ticket) is all you'd need. It's larger patterns that stick out. Was the card used owned by the person boarding the plane? Do the billing address and reported home address of the passenger match? Is there some longevity to that scenario? That, plus a lot of other tell-tales aren't going to stop a terrorist, per se... but they have a little impact on which inspection line you pass through, or whether your checked bags should get flipped ninety degrees twice during x-raying, just in case another view will help spot something. Nothing's perfect, but not caring is guaranteed not to work.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[ScentCone]

love this part of the story, it's really great. The first stories I read about this incident said there were five Imams, and they were sitting in their assigned seats

Just because the first version you heard didn't include the specific details that actually got the flight crew (and the passenger that watched the guys promote themselves to first class seating) worried doesn't really matter, does it?

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[hurfy]

I don't know but the local newspaper presented it the exact same way as we did here.

Does anyone else get a good half of this stuff in their local paper before slashdot?

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[Rob the Bold]

I was flagged for having a "terrorist profile" back in 1997. I went to a conference in Memphis and bought 2 one-way tickets -- there and back -- because it was cheaper in that instance than the round trip. At the airport, the rent-a-pig told the rent-a-sow next to him, "Ugh . . . terrorist profile" as he handed me a form and sent me back for more extreme searches of my possessions. I complained to the guy at the "extra security checkpoint" that I didn't care to be called a "terrorist" and his response was "They shouldn't have said that".

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[Anonymous Coward]

First, I don't seem to actually be hearing about a lot of Jesus-chanting suicide bombers. At least, not outside of hypothetical conversations.

I know, hypotheticals are so hard they make your head hurt but please try for all our sakes. If (note IF, speculate, exercise your brain) extremists had been using Christian words before attacks, do you think other Christians would abandon their religious phrases? I don't think they would and I think they'd be right not to. I think moslems are right not to as well. Now you try. You may come up with a different answer to me but it's really important that you at least try to think. Hypotheticals are a useful tool; they shouldn't scare you.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[homer_ca]

Not exactly a suicide bomber, but (Christian Fundamentalist) Eric Rudolph bombed the '96 Olympics in Atlanta among other targets. Then while he was on the run, his brother protested the manhunt by cutting off his own hand with a circular saw.

Re:Wasn't this talked about at LEAST 2 years ago?

[Slashdot Parent]

Not really. It's behavioral profiling - a lot more effective than skin-based profiling.

Only if your enemy is completely stupid. If you wanted to board a plane without arousing any suspicion, hopefully you'd know to buy your tickets using a credit card at least 21 days in advance. You know, to blend in.

Meals Ordered on Flight??

[eno2001]

WTF? "Uh oh... Achmed over there ordered something weird. He might be a terrorist. Ban him from the plane". This reminds me of an episode of that classic chilrden's cartoon "Wait Till Your Father Gets Home". The main character had a red scare neighbor who was always looknig for "commies" everywhere. He was saying how he'd figured out a way to get all the commies and wanted to tell the CIA about it. His method? "Find all the names in the phonebook that end with 'ski' and you've got 'em"!

Re:Meals Ordered on Flight??

[antifoidulus]

Obviously the best way to fly is to have lots of booze and pork....well...not necessarily related to being labeled a terrorist, really booze is the only thing that makes flying bearable.

Re:Meals Ordered on Flight??

[operagost]

Obviously, this method is a bit more sophisticated than yours as it uses a FEW more variables. I'm not following your logic, which seems to be that if creating a profile based on one factor is stupid then creating one based on many factors is no better.

Re:Meals Ordered on Flight??

[eno2001]

Naw. Sex and chewing gum are better. The sex to kill the time and the chewing gum to prevent ear popping.

Re:Meals Ordered on Flight??

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Do you think you're exaggerating?

Muslims removed from airplane when passengers found praying to be suspicious

Re:Meals Ordered on Flight??

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Just for the record.

They came aboard - ok ... no problem
They made a lot of noise - ok ... happens
They ordered - unecessary seatbelt extensions - which are heavy metal objects - ok .. no problem
They stood up and started praying - ok ... no problem ... makes people nervous
They sat back down ONE AT EACH EXIT OF THE PLANE - BIG problem

These people were trying to do one of 2 things
-> terrorist attack
-> get themselves removed from the plane so they could call "racist"

You're not going to tell me these people didn't have this coming.

Re:Meals Ordered on Flight??

[eno2001]

Operagost. It's called a joke.

Re:Meals Ordered on Flight??

[Aexia]

They prayed BEFORE they got on the flight.

Re:Meals Ordered on Flight??

[cold fjord]

Do you think you're exaggerating?

Muslims removed from airplane when passengers found praying to be suspicious

The Star Tribune article that you link to is appallingly bad. Practically speaking it is closer to disinformation about the incident and why the Imams were removed from the plane.

How the imams terrorized an airliner

Muslim religious leaders removed from a Minneapolis flight last week exhibited behavior associated with a security probe by terrorists and were not merely engaged in prayers, according to witnesses, police reports and aviation security officials. ....

Passengers and flight attendants told law-enforcement officials the imams switched from their assigned seats to a pattern associated with the September 11 terrorist attacks and also found in probes of U.S. security since the attacks -- two in the front row first-class, two in the middle of the plane on the exit aisle and two in the rear of the cabin.

        "That would alarm me," said a federal air marshal who asked to remain anonymous. "They now control all of the entry and exit routes to the plane." .....

According to witnesses, police reports and aviation security officials, the imams displayed other suspicious behavior.
        Three of the men asked for seat-belt extenders, although two flight attendants told police the men were not oversized. One flight attendant told police she "found this unsettling, as crew knew about the six [passengers] on board and where they were sitting." Rather than attach the extensions, the men placed the straps and buckles on the cabin floor, the flight attendant said.
        The imams said they were not discussing politics and only spoke in English, but witnesses told law enforcement that the men spoke in Arabic and English, criticizing the war in Iraq and President Bush, and talking about al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.
        The imams who claimed two first-class seats said their tickets were upgraded. The gate agent told police that when the imams asked to be upgraded, they were told no such seats were available. Nevertheless, the two men were seated in first class when removed.
        A flight attendant said one of the men made two trips to the rear of the plane to talk to the imam during boarding, and again when the flight was delayed because of their behavior. Aviation officials, including air marshals and pilots, said these actions alone would not warrant a second look, but the combination is suspicious.
        "That's like shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater. You just can't do that anymore," said Robert MacLean, a former air marshal.
        "They should have been denied boarding and been investigated," Mr. MacLean said. "It looks like they are trying to create public sympathy or maybe setting someone up for a lawsuit."
        The pilot with another airline who talked to The Washington Times on condition of anonymity, said he would have made the same call as the US Airways pilot.
        "If any group of passengers is commingling in the terminal and didn't sit in their assigned seats or with each other, I would stop everything and investigate until they could provide me with a reason they did not sit in their assigned seats."

   

Marshals decry imams' charges
THE FAKING IMAMS

Not trolling but..

[Drakin020]

I wonder if there going to check things like religious background or ethnicity. Part of me feels it's racial profiling, but then again I hate to say it but...Who is more likely to make the attacks?

Re:Not trolling but..

[AuMatar]

In the US? By number of attacks, white Christians males are responsible for the vast majority of terrorist attacks. White Christian females come in number 2. Everyone else is a distant 3rd. In yearly deathrate its the same two, but with a blip in 2001.

Re:Not trolling but..

[IdleTime]

As an atheist, I shouldn't have anything to be worried about then?

Re:Not trolling but..

[amRadioHed]

Of course not, since American's just love atheists!

So if you're flagged ...

[gstoddart]

So if you're flagged you're screwed? If "the ATS is exempt from many provisions of the Privacy Act -- one cannot view their rating or the information used to generate it", and if you get erroneously flagged, you're screwed???

This is like the no-fly list only worse then, isn't it? An algorithm kicks out the belief that you must be a terrorist, and anytime you go anywhere it's gonna beep and you get cold hands and lube once again.

I hope this gets shot down by a court, because way too many scary things are being passed that exempt themselves from any sort of oversight and transparency. I can envision a lot of people deciding they don't really wish to fly to the US anymore. It's impossible to do without having your privacy invaded or running the risk of ending up on some secret CIA flight or something.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[0123456]

"I can envision a lot of people deciding they don't really wish to fly to the US anymore."

Welcome to several years ago: a heck of lot of people have already decided they don't want to visit America anymore.

I used to travel to America regularly before 9/11, but I've only been there twice since and both of those were short stops between planes when flying to and from Canada. Why go to a country that will treat me like crap at immigration, then potentially kidnap me and ship me to Cuba if some computer tells them I might be a terrist?

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can envision a lot of people deciding they don't really wish to fly to the US anymore

Correct. I work for one of the larger well known companies in the world and it's not exactly a secret that I refuse to visit our US offices.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[teh_chrizzle]

This is like the no-fly list only worse then, isn't it? An algorithm kicks out the belief that you must be a terrorist, and anytime you go anywhere it's gonna beep and you get cold hands and lube once again.

no, this is way better, it uses computers to racially profile. computers can't be racist... they're computers.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[gstoddart]

Welcome to several years ago: a heck of lot of people have already decided they don't want to visit America anymore.

Well, it's definitely building over time, there's no denying that.

I used to travel to America regularly before 9/11, but I've only been there twice since and both of those were short stops between planes when flying to and from Canada.

But, even that is getting kind of scary. I seem to recall that some time last year, Gonzales issued a legal opinion that says that they can arrest and detain anyone they see fit, and short of torture (which they defined in terms or organ failure and death) they could do anything they wanted to you.

It sounds very much like just taking a connecting flight through the US could allow you to end up in custody, declared as an illegal combatant, and locked away. I just simply don't trust people who grant themselves that much power and remove all transparency. I realize it's unlikely, it's just eerie to know they believe that they can do anything they want. Especially if other countries did the same, the US would freak out that their citizens can't go around unfettered.

Cheers

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[mutterc]

So if you're flagged you're screwed?

(Putting aside all the other reasons this is bad...)

Anyone who's had to maintain a database can tell you they get crufty over time. Since there's no way to spot or correct inaccuracies, inaccuracies will just build up until the system is useless.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[penguinrenegade]

Here's a great one for you. My wife and I got married a year ago.

1) Hotel closed in Bahamas due to hurricane. We changed flights to Hawaii, honeymooned there.
2) Due to a horrid set of circumstances and poor maintenance on USAIRWAYS - our flight was canceled and I think they towed the plane straight to the dump. FOUR times on & off the plane - first the lights wouldn't come on for the pilots, then warning lights wouldn't go off, etc. We went through security 3 times before we even got on a plane.
3) They sent us in a taxi to ANOTHER AIRPORT an hour away. Second flight change in a week.
4) We got to the 2nd airport - the flight we were supposed to take - snow problems.
5) USAirways & United kept booking and then unbooking us - six more times. Routed to LAX via Denver, Philly, Detroit, etc. EIGHT flight changes in a week now.
6) They FINALLY issue us tickets about 10 minutes before the flight was ready to go.
7) EXTRA SECURITY! Due entirely to them changing our flights repeatedly.
8) We arrive late in Los Angeles, only to miss our flight to Hawaii. Tickets must be re-done a NINTH time now, first night of honeymoon in hotel with bullet hole in window on 9th floor. I kid you not.
9) Next morning - tickets are re-done a 10th time. SURPRISE! Extra Security!
10) Leaving Hawaii - I kid you not - we had to go through security 3 times!

Lesson learned: Print your boarding passes from ONLINE - they NEVER have the extra security flag on them! ALWAYS keep a spare set on your person so that you can skip the extra security!!

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[Mex]

Oh yeah. Three of my friends decided to travel directly to Paris for their vacation, instead of passing through New York or Atlanta, even if that was as much as 200 dollars cheaper.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't want fools like you here.

Next flight for Syria leaves in 2 hours, better start packing.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"no, this is way better, it uses computers to racially profile. computers can't be racist... they're computers."

I helped design expert systems and AI apps for a large university during my graduate years.

I gotta tell you, it all depends on the criteria. For instance, while designing an essay grading system, I trained the system against actual humans. The humans generally didn't know the names of the individuals, just the essays. But we had some extra human raters sitting around after they had done their work and we still had 6 months of trials to go where they were going to get paid one way or another.

So we gave them all print outs of the papers with randomized 'stereotypical' names. Didn't tell them what we were doing, which was actually a bit unethical. Trained the computer against these and had the computer know the names as well.

The computer with no overt racial bias in our programming would give Sally Smith a better score that LaWanda Jackson -- same essay. Only marginal, but the bias was there.

Never published the results because human subjects would have beaten the shit out of all those involved, and so would our raters after calling them a bunch of racist inbred rednecks. At the same time, it gave us ideas on how to reduce cultural bias in the scoring from other areas (such as identifying cultural equivalents in writing styles and tweaking the code so that bias was reduced).

---

Now think of this as if it were not simply a number a scientist has devised by identifying characteristics of terrorists, but analyzing the work of those in the FBI or military as they go through a standardized method of determining if in fact someone is a terrorist. The standardized portion only goes towards what information they have access to, and how they can handle it. No way to standardize the cognitive portions of whats going on. Each officer has a different means of weighing the same info. Depending on the abilities and strengths of the intelligent agent they are adapting to identify terrorists, it may now be imprinted with racial tendencies.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[soft_guy]

Don't worry. The CIA can arrest you in your own country and send you to Cuba. You don't have to visit the US for that.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets all move to england. The worst they can do to you there is shoot you in the face on the train.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[cliffski]

Heres some statistics on international tourist travel to the USA:

http://www.tia.org/researchpubs/ivis_international _visitor_arrivals.html

(From the tourist association of america website)

2000 was the peak year. in 2005 (when stats were gathered) international travel looks to have fallen 15% from 2000 levels.
I'm not suprised, the having your shoes x-rayed, the nonsense about liquids and gels, and the fingerprinting does tend to spoil your holiday.
Worst of all is the ban on prescription medecines without the paperwork (like they would spot forged paperwork). people don't put medicines in their cargo luggage precisely because it can be a big deal if that goes to the wrong destination. I'm not aware of many terrorists taking down airliners by using a few pills.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[Macadamizer]

I wish I could go to Syria. I actually had tickets for a Syria - Jordan - Lebanon vacation last summer, but the combination of Ramadan (the only time I could get off of work was during Ramadan) and that crazy Hezbollah - Israel thingie made me decide to return the tickets. I went to Greece and Romania instead.

Maybe I can get back to Syria next year...

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and anytime you go anywhere it's gonna beep and you get cold hands and lube once again.

No no no, agents hands will be specially warmed from a local burning copy of the Constitution and should be pleasant and comforting. ...if you're American at least. The rest of us unfortunate enough to pop out of a womb in another country will get neither warm hands OR lube.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[g2devi]

> In algorithm kicks out the belief that you must be a terrorist,
> and anytime you go anywhere it's gonna beep and you get cold hands and lube once again.

Basically, if the courts don't challenge it and the laws are taken to their natural conclusion, the US will become Brazil (the movie, not the country):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(film)

Not a fun place to live.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[amRadioHed]

Lesson learned: Print your boarding passes from ONLINE - they NEVER have the extra security flag on them!

Interesting. The more you know the more you see what a farce all this extra security really is.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"and short of torture (which they defined in terms or organ failure and death)"

Come on. That's ridiculous. That's not what Gonzales said in his infamous memo defining torture. Firstly, the phrase was "death OR organ failure", not "and". Also, torture was defined as producing pain such that, "When the pain is physical, it must be of an intensity akin to that which accompanies serious physical injury such as death or organ failure." There are restrictions for psychological torture too. So, by implication if it isn't painful or it isn't pain equivalent to death or organ failure, it's not torture and it's just fine.

And, really, how bad could that be?

[*Cough*]

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[dissy]

Do a youtube search on "water boarding" some time.
A form of torture made leagal by the US (as far as that goes, but they do it) that is akin to drowning you as far as your lungs cant get enough air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGyz-MMQuvU
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=water+ boarding+torture&search=Search

Also check back to the canadian dude that was traveling through the US (connecting flight), who was detained, sent to another country by the US specifically for the purpose to torture him. He was held for around a year, and daily had his arms and hands whipped with large metal cables, and had his legs clubbed.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[FFFish]

It sounds very much like just taking a connecting flight through the US could allow you to end up in custody, declared as an illegal combatant, and locked away.

Not only does it sound like that, it is like that. There was, f'rinstance, the case of Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen, who was pulled while transferring planes and sent off to be tortured in Syria.

I'm surprised that all foreign travellers are not making a helluvan effort to avoid touching-down in the USA.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[cold fjord]

It sounds very much like just taking a connecting flight through the US could allow you to end up in custody, declared as an illegal combatant, and locked away.

Are you engaged in a plot to kill large numbers of Americans? Are you giving money to Islamist extremist terrorist organizations that are plotting to kill large numbers of Americans? Are you supplying terrorists with: weapons? documents? intelligence? Have you been hanging out on any battlefields and shooting or lobbing grenades at Americans? Have you been spending long periods of time in various countries known for training terrorists after proclaiming your allegiance to Bin Laden and your steadfastness in pursuing Jihad? Are you a Muslim extremist who demands that Spain be returned to Muslim rule, Israel be destroyed, and hang around with extremists Imams while having the occasional problem with weapons that you shouldn't have?

No?

So, why do you think they will be interested in you? They have real threats to be concerned about.

I realize it's unlikely, it's just eerie to know they believe that they can do anything they want.

Unlikely is an understatement. No, they don't believe that they can do anything that they want. That impression might be caused by not knowing American law, history, and the extensive but still limited powers of the US President, especially in time of war. I doubt that President Bush has done much of anything that President Roosevelt didn't do in the 1940s, and in many respects, far less.

. ... and short of torture (which they defined in terms or organ failure and death)

I very much doubt that.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[teh_chrizzle]

perhaps my subtle irony was a little too subtle... using software to make a discriminatory practice seem impartial is just as wrong as using humans to do it... if anything it's worse becuse you are using the guise of "impartiality" to push your agenda.

if you get a letter signed by the president on whitehouse letterhead that says "you're an asshole", the presidential seal doesn't doesn't make it true, nor does it change the fact that someone you don't know just called you an asshole. in both cases all it does is make a person's opinion look more official.

Re:So if you're flagged ...

[telso]

I used to travel to America regularly before 9/11, but I've only been there twice since and both of those were short stops between planes when flying to and from Canada. Why go to a country that will treat me like crap at immigration, then potentially kidnap me and ship me to Cuba if some computer tells them I might be a terrist?

People at Gitmo are at least ostensibly required to follow American law and ostensibly the courts have oversight. If the US really wants to stop completely innocent people connecting through the US to Canada and then ship them off to somewhere to be tortured, their best bet is to choose Syria. Of course, they'd never do that....

Take your pill and swallow it

[Adult film producer]

There has not been an al-queda attack on american soil since 9/11, this is absolute proof that these new policies of privacy invasion and loss of freedom are working to keep you safe.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[NineNine]

The scary thing is that half of the people in this country would seriously agree with you 100%.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[HTTP Error 403 403.9]

There has not been an al-queda attack on american soil since 9/11, this is absolute proof that these new policies of privacy invasion and loss of freedom are working to keep you safe.

Actually this stone I keep in my pocket is keeping everyone safe.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[Guido von Guido]

There has not been an al-queda attack on american soil since 9/11, this is absolute proof that these new policies of privacy invasion and loss of freedom are working to keep you safe.

Absolutely. And the fact that there were eight years between the first two Al Queda attacks on American soil means nothing.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[xENoLocO]

So 5 years?

How long was it before 9/11 that we had an attack from "al-qaeda" (which isn't even a real terrorist group, btw) 9 years I think (wtc in 93)?

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[Anonymous Coward]

None of these safety methods is letting me be free.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[soft_guy]

The scary thing is that half of the people in this country would seriously agree with you 100%. I haven't been attacked by Elephants since Bush got elected. He sure is doing a great job keeping those elephants from attacking me.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[b0s0z0ku]

There has not been an al-queda attack on american soil since 9/11, this is absolute proof that these new policies of privacy invasion and loss of freedom are working to keep you safe.

Nor was there one between 1994 and 2000, which is a longer period than 2002-2006. Were the government's policies keeping us safe then?

-b.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[Anonymous Coward]

Nor was there one between 1994 and 2000, which is a longer period than 2002-2006. Were the government's policies keeping us safe then?

Huh? There was an attack in 1993 and a repeat attack on the same freaking target in 2001. So whatever was done after 1993 apparently wasn't too effective.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[b0s0z0ku]

Huh? There was an attack in 1993 and a repeat attack on the same freaking target in 2001. So whatever was done after 1993 apparently wasn't too effective.

Right, and there was a "calm" period of approximately 8 years 6.5 months between 2/26/1993 and 9/11/2001. It's only been 5 years 2.5 months since 9/11/2001. Who's to say what's going to happen in the next 3 years and 4 months? No precedent is being set here yet.

-b.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[Anonymous Coward]

This reminds me of a moment in the simpsons

Lisa:This rock keeps tigers away.

Homer: How does it work?

Lisa: It doesn't but do you see any tigers?

Homer: I would like to buy your rock.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[WK1]

1) Make flying so uncomfortable that people stop doing it.

2) Increase cars on highway as people drive long distances to avoid flying.

3) Kill more people every year than several years worth of terrorist attacks.

4) ?

5) Profit?

Even if we assume that these regulations are actually doing some good, and neglect stress related deaths, neglect the tatters of the constitution, and neglect the fact that this is only a temporary safety, we still lose.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[cold fjord]

There has not been an al-queda attack on american soil since 9/11, this is absolute proof...

I think this list of just some of the terrorism convictions that the FBI has obtained is more persuasive.

Re:Take your pill and swallow it

[cold fjord]

The scary thing is that half of the people in this country would seriously agree with you 100%.

I suspect that many people in this country know of at least some of the terrorism convictions on this partial list from the FBI, and recognize that the recent changes in national security laws actually serve a useful purpose while having little or no significant effect on the vast majority of Americans.

I think the truly scary thing is that a large number of people in this country will deny that there is any threat from terrorists whatsoever despite the convictions, fairly regular fresh arrests, and continuing threats. Simply averting your eyes doesn't make the problem better.

About Time!

[johnnywheeze]

Great! There is absolutely nothing that can go wrong with this.

There was a time when a certain amount of distrust of the government was considered "healthy".

Now it gets you points on your "good american" list.

I thought my credit score was something to worry about, how long until your "Good American" score will be used as a factor in court proceedings, federal hiring practices, etc. etc.?

Re:About Time!

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

>how long until your "Good American" score will be used as a factor in court proceedings, federal hiring practices, etc. etc.?

You mean like this?

The government notice says some or all of the ATS data about an individual may be shared with state, local and foreign governments for use in hiring decisions and in granting licenses, security clearances, contracts or other benefits. In some cases, the data may be shared with courts, Congress and even private contractors.

Meals = Racial Profiling

[seriv]

Out of all the criteria used, meals ordered stood out to me. It seems so out of place, but I imagine that it is a bit of blatant racial profiling. I am guessing that anyone who orders a meal that conforms to an Islamic diet gets a higher rating on this system. I don't think the beef or chicken will make a difference. Perhaps "racial" profiling is not the best term, since this will hunt out people based on Religion, which would be a much greater privacy concern in my mind.

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[smooth wombat]

Perhaps "racial" profiling is not the best term, since this will hunt out people based on Religion, which would be a much greater privacy concern in my mind.

Especially considering that jews and muslims have similar dietary requirements.

Wonder if the TSA will flag the folks from AIPAC or the JDL?

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[AVonGauss]

Calling it racial profiling is probably a little harsh, but it's probably not far from it either. I mean, really, wouldn't it be great and improve the system if we also knew what religion the person flying believed in? Now, come to think of it, shouldn't we also know about their parents, immediate family and close associates? I wouldn't say "the terrorists" have won, but it does sure seem like they scored a major victory in the US. What is that saying, freedom for me and you - as long as everyone agrees with me?

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[quick9vb]

I agree that collecting meal data can certainly be viewed as racial profiling. What does your chosen meal have to do with whether you are a potential terrorist or not? What about domestic terrorists who choose beef or chicken?

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

And would that be that bad ?

If muslims stopped blowing others up, it wouldn't take more than 1 or 2 years for them to start screening communists or just regular criminals again.

"oh but it isn't muslims that are terrorists"

Yes it is, it is not only muslims, it's muslims doing it for islam :
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Just read some of the statements these guys make before mass-murdering their fellow citizens.

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[metlin]

You want to know the funny thing?

I was raised Hindu (although I do not particularly adhere to it anymore) and a lot of Hindus, Buddhists, Jains (amongst others) do not eat meat nor consume alchohol.

And if they were checking for something (say, eating pork and not consuming alchohol), all these folks will get tagged too.

Isn't that sad?

Then again, I'm resigned to the fact that if I am flying, I'm almost certainly going to get pulled aside for being brown.

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[metlin]

And if they were checking for something (say, eating pork and not consuming alchohol), all these folks will get tagged too.

I meant, "not eating pork and not consuming alchohol" -- my bad.

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[_Sprocket_]

Perhaps "racial" profiling is not the best term, since this will hunt out people based on Religion, which would be a much greater privacy concern in my mind.

Sure - but you're kidding yourself if you don't see a connection between religion and the current situation. It makes sense to include indicators of religion when it is, in fact, a common factor. The only question is whether it is the only factor and how much weight is given to it (and whether diet alone is considered a decisive for religion / beliefs).

There are a lot of posts already with the common theme of "innocuous behavior = terrorist!" I would agree if that is, in fact, the case. But most likely these are simply indicators with minor behavior patterns being weighted less than other indicators. The same concept is applied to many spam filters these days. For example, just because an email mentions "microcaps" doesn't mean its a spam pump-n-dump scheme. But I sure see a lot of those spams, so my filter tags an email for it. It takes other indicators (differently weighted) for that email to eventually be tagged as spam. And I would expect it takes more than avoiding pork to end up on a watch list.

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[TrappedByMyself]

Always order the bacon.



Mmmmmmm..... bacon...... ahhahhahahhhhhh....

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer is no. Different standards are used for Muslims and Jews. For example, take the 8 muslim boys arrested and given life sentences in VA/Maryland, for playing paintball. Their conviction was on the grounds that they PRETENDED to fight India in their paintball games, India being a US ally. Now consider the number of jews who ACTUALLY fought against official us allies (arab countries) in 1973. These people live freely and openly in the US, no arrests. The comparison is a picture of the harsh reality of the double-standard laws in this country.

Re:Meals = Racial Profiling

[paddyirishman]

"He ordered the low fat meal. No American would do that. He must be a terrorist!"

Since we all know that you MUST be a terrorist if:

[Avillia]

*You took a one-way trip to assist in disaster aid in New Orleans or Thailand in the last two years, not knowing when you would be comfortable with/forced to leave the area.
*You enjoy food from the Middle East (they probably have a Middle-Eastern mid-flight meal SOMEWHERE) after trying some at a small suburban restaraunt near your Pakistani coworker.
*You paid in cash, since you recently went bankrupt and are moving somewhere that has a lower cost of living.
*You refused to show your ID in the airport a few months ago because you packed your wallet in your checked bag by accident (Happened to me, it's tons of fun).
*You checked out a book on Islamic extremism for your Current Issues class, for a Debate on the issue, or other such academia.

It's good to know our previous Congress was too busy pissing themselves post-911 to have a clear enough mind to see how freaking WRONG the Patriot Act was, and then kept being embarassed by the stain enough to extend it's duration.

What I want to know is...

[common middle name]

what mundane thing will set the government off next? Should I expect a visit from the FBI because I bought Rice Crispies this week instead of the oatmeal I usually buy? Will they want to know why I buy more computer equipment than my neighbors? What deep insight could they possibly glean from this information? Should we all just accept the fact that everyone in the world is now a potential threat to the United States, including its own citizens?

Re:What I want to know is...

[Anonymous Coward]

You should know these things.

At the very least, Miniluv will know. They will help you with these questions.

Re:What I want to know is...

[sleigher]

Should we all just accept the fact that everyone in the world is now a potential threat to the United States, including its own citizens? It is this statement that is frightening. When the the US gov't is threatened by it's own people, it is certainly time for the people to be afraid of their gov't.

My brother/sister in law get held and questioned EVERY time they fly because their two year old child has the same name as some IRA guy from a long time ago. Nevermind that they see the boy and realize he is two years old. They still have to go to the back room and explain who they are, where they are going, why are you here..........

Re:What I want to know is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Should I expect a visit from the FBI because I bought Rice Crispies this week instead of the oatmeal I usually buy?

Rice Crispies are well-known for going Snap-Crackle-Pop! The government should ban Rice Crispies from carry-on and checked baggage. When you hear "snap", followed in rapid succession by "crackle", only one thing remains before the aircraft falls from the sky - "pop". Those three characters are not so cute now, huh? http://www.lavasurfer.com/cereal-kelloggs.html

Re:What I want to know is...

[Anonymous Coward]

You got that right.
You are about to enter an era of terror by your
own government. And the funny part ? 50% votes
for it.
The only one that can destroy US is US itself.

By what meals you ordered?

[Jabrwock]

So only terrorists or terrorist sympathizers would order the salisbury steak in-flight?

Code Red, he ordered desert! I say again, HE ORDERED THE DESERT!!! GO! GO! GO!

Terrorists as powergamers...

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd think they'd learn from all the mmorpg's that every game mechanic (except for Ony's deep breath) can be determined with sufficent amounts of data points? So the jihadis zerg the airlines, and see who makes it through, and who doesn't. It'd be fairly obvious that it'd be worth the cost to 'upgrade' to round trip tickets for one. Then the terrorists can happily powergame our system while actual travellers get trips to the special rooms to get searched by Ben Dover.

Re:Terrorists as powergamers...

[0123456]

"So the jihadis zerg the airlines, and see who makes it through, and who doesn't"

Indeed, as has been pointed out numerous times, this kind of thing is far more onerous on the law-abiding than the terrorists, as so long as they can collect together a few dozen aspiring suicide bombers they can then see which ones _aren't_ given the gloved finger when they get on a plane. It only works if it's nearly 100% accurate at identifying potential terrorists so they can't find anyone who passes through.

Meanwhile, the one single most accurate identifying characteristic -- i.e. that all recent terrorist attacks of this kind have been committed by Muslims -- can't be used because it would be 'racist'. Far better to strip-search Italian grandmothers so we can pretend we're not 'discriminating'.

Re:Terrorists as powergamers...

[Guido von Guido]

Meanwhile, the one single most accurate identifying characteristic -- i.e. that all recent terrorist attacks of this kind have been committed by Muslims -- can't be used because it would be 'racist'. Far better to strip-search Italian grandmothers so we can pretend we're not 'discriminating'.

What gives you the idea that terrorists can't game that "most accurate identifying characteristic?" Would this have caught Richard Reid? Would this catch a Chechen who looks Russian? Would this prevent the terrorists from recruiting people who aren't obviously Muslim? Would this have caught the bomb that a Palestinian attempted to smuggle onto a plane 15-20 years ago with his pregnant, Irish girlfiend? Would this have caught my Egyptian co-worker who everybody thought was Mexican? Would this have caught Timothy McVeigh? I won't even get into the fact that you're assuming that terrorists will remain Muslim, which is fine until the ETA or the Tamil Tigers or somebody new gets pissed at us.

Re:Terrorists as powergamers...

[Anonymous Coward]

You say that profiling only works if it's 100% accurate, and since it never can be, profiling is pointless. Then you go and advocate profiling against one single characteristic which can't be anywhere near 100% accurate. Your ability to doublethink is truly to be admired!

I'll take a...

[dave562]

...one way ticket to Dubai, aisle seat... with a Terrorist Meal. Oh, can I carry on this box cutter or do I need to check it with my Semtex filled laptop?

Here, my friends, is the code for this...

[sheepoo]

if user_food_type = 'halal' then
raise_alarm()
else if check_country_population_for_muslims > 50 then
raise_alarm()
else if seating_preference() close_to_cockpit and user_appearance like 'arab'
raise_alarm()
end if
print 'americans are scared and americans are morons'

Re:Here, my friends, is the code for this...

[fingon]

You may consider that funny, but I am originally from Europe, typical nerdishly-pale white male, live in Japan, working for American company, and travel frequently to US on business. And every fucking time I get the SSSS mark on my boarding pass, which, I think, means Super Secret Secondary Screening or something equivalent, and ends up with pat-down and some moron fiddling with my carryon luggage for ages. Therefore, I have made a point of trying to avoid travelling to the 'land of the free', it's no longer even as fun as good old China, at least their random searches seem to be random.

So while I think your algorithm doesn't quite cover it, but it is probably fairly close, considering it seems to be crime to have brains in the administration of the good ol' US of A these days..

Re:Here, my friends, is the code for this...

[penguinrenegade]

Print your boarding pass out at home - log in and do this from online - and you NEVER get the SSSS on your boarding pass!

EVER! For some reason they can't or won't do it online. Saves you hassles at the airport.

Re:Here, my friends, is the code for this...

[jskiff]

Of course you'll never get SSSS on a boarding pass you printed at home. If your try to check in on-line and the computer determines you've been "selected" for screening, you'll be given a message similar to "On-line checkin failed. Please see an agent at the airport." You'll get your SSSS card there instead.

Re:Here, my friends, is the code for this...

[maztuhblastah]

According to the TSA bueracrats who I e-mailed about this, it stands for "Self Selected Secondary Screening".... which is bullshit, since it's not "self selected". Then again, this is the TSA we're talking about, so I'm not surprised that I wasn't able to find out what it means.

Re:Here, my friends, is the code for this...

[amRadioHed]

Let me get this straight. Because it's bullshit, you don't think that's what it really means? I personally would be more likely to call bullshit if a TSA policy did make sense.

Re:Here, my friends, is the code for this...

[fingon]

My approach is just to get boarding passes from outside US whenver possible; even for connecting flights inside the US, you won't get SSSS marks. Of course, on the trip home, it's always the quality time at checkpoints.. So here's a hint to the bad guys: get boarding passes to your final destination from somewhere elsewhere than the States!

Where to begin?

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

It's not a national security program:
>Government officials could not say whether ATS has apprehended any terrorists.

It can't work because of the base rate fallacy. At any false alarm rate known to man, the output will be statistically indistiguishable from 100% false alarms.

All these problems are aggravated by the fact that they won't correct errors:
>Nor can they see the records "for the purpose of contesting the content."

It's not to keep airplanes safe, it's a general control tool:
>ATS data about an individual may be shared with state, local and foreign governments for use in hiring decisions and in granting licenses, security clearances, contracts or other benefits.

Re:Where to begin?

[EvilMagnus]

ATS data about an individual may be shared with state, local and foreign governments for use in hiring decisions and in granting licenses, security clearances, contracts or other benefits.

I'm sorry, Citizen, but your Freedom Index is too low. I'm afraid we can't give you Social Security benefits. Guess you shouldn't have voted Democrat and had that vegetarian meal on that one-way flight you took seven years ago, eh?

Re:So if you're flagged ... forget rail passage,

[davidsyes]

too. I was in a train station in San Jose a few months back and noticed the Amtrak ID requirement sign. It's not new, but in summary, one has to present ID to purchase tickets to ride the train between states. So, sounds almost like needing an internal visa or passport. "What, thought you could travel anonymously since we crimped your flying ease? Nyet Nyet..." I figure anyone who is savvy will just meticulously plan their routes to ride the Amtrak as long as they can, then switch to Greyhound or *USA, then back on another mode. BUT, then they ticket agent computer might be linked to a profile database and flag it to "delay or get more information from a traveler when said traveler has unusual breaks in transit not commensurate to any business events, registered funerals, or known relatives in the area to which said traveler might have reasonable cause to participated in." Don't forget: TIA: Total Information Awareness, boys and girls...

But, I wouldn't be surprised if later they ease up. Why ease up? Facial Recognition and other means might mean they can afford to relax the rules and just let us pay and board, so long as we don't carry on any dangerous items.

One day, we'll need a mag card to take a shit anywhere outside of home, and some processor/analizer, umm, analyzer will record our dietary, blood, cell irregularity, and other things. I suppose DNA is in the matter somewhere, tho...

RIP USA

[subl33t]

I just can't think of a anything good that will come of this.

Sorry Yanks, the USA is dead, you have one party with two faces to make you think you have a choice. Welcome to Soviet America.

(goodbye karma)

Re:RIP USA

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Almost all the Democrats voted against the Abu Ghraib Legalization and Magna Carta Repeal Act in October.

Re:RIP USA

[Damastus the WizLiz]

Not soviet America, Capitalist America. Where you are a pawn of a government controlled by Big Business. You will be told what you MUST buy, what you MUST fear, and what you MUST believe is the truth by the government. Where posts like this one raise a flag in some database because I am saying something bad about the direction this country is taking. I find it somewhat ironic that for the Iraq war effort the politicians were telling everyone to support our troops because they are defending your freedom while they slowly began stripping away those freedoms. America is in a downward spiral. However it can be corrected but not without hard work and large scale citizen participation.

Re:RIP USA

[Anonymous Coward]

No No. You said it wrong. Try this:

I, for one, welcome our list-bearing American Overlords!

Re:RIP USA

[Anonymous Coward]

See what the fuckers do now that they control congress. If you think they will fix any problems you are sadly mistaken. They have already abandoned the congressional oversite provision recommended by the 9-11 commission. You know, one of their campaign promises.

My only hope is that with an r in the white house and d's running congress, the rest of the US won't get fucked up the a.

Yeah, right. Maybe they will at least give us a lube first.

Instant Translation

[dgatwood]

Dave's instant translation from government-speak to English:

...'terrorist risk rating'...

Random number generator.

...where they are from,

If you're from California or one of those other blue states, you must be a terrorist.

how they paid for tickets

That child with the world's largest piggy bank is soooo gonna get it.

their motor vehicle records

Anybody who has ever driven to Florida is a suspect.

past one-way travel

This person seems to have a history of committing terrorist acts against aircraft.

seating preference

Only terrorists can't afford first class.

The meals they ordered in-flight

Halal is fine, but those vegetarians... man, you've gotta watch out for them. And the vegans... those are the worst.

These ratings have now been assigned to millions of international travelers, including Americans, and the ATS is exempt from many provisions of the Privacy Act -- one cannot view their rating or the information used to generate it."

All your base are belong to U.S.

This concludes this translation session.

Not new : we do it since years

[aepervius]

Just look at my post history :) just kidding. But in addition to what CNN says the compartement (busines/first) lower your score, as well as belonging to a frequent traveler program. I am jsut SURPRISED that the US citizen also are in the database (it used to be only us dirty foreigner).

So how much worth is this score ? The easiest way to avoid a high score is to pay with credit card (can't be that hard to obtain), always make 2 ways travel even if you do not go "back", get senator/gold frequent traveler card (cumualte miles), business class, always order a meal with pig (just pretend to be ill and do not eat it, or just plain sleep thru the meal). Et Voila ! I just defeated any trace of security provided by such a score. Do I get to be shipped to a nice comfy cuban prison ?

By the way those rules are knowns since year and I remmember commenting about it on slashdot 2 or 3 times.

TERRORISM!

[Mayhem178]

This information would include things such as where they are from, how they paid for tickets, their motor vehicle records, past one-way travel, seating preference and the meals they ordered in-flight.

Translation:

1. Not from America? TERRORISM!
2. Don't use American currency? TERRORISM!
3. Speeding tickets? TERRORISM!
4. Relocation? TERRORISM!
5. Like window seats? TERRORISM!
6. Kosher meal? TERRORISM!

Thanks you for watching our latest Homeland Security video!

Re:TERRORISM!

[0123456]

"Like window seats? TERRORISM!"

No, it's more complicated than that.

If you like window seats, it's because you're planning to blow yourself up and blow a hole in the side of the plane, so you're a terrorist.

If you like aisle seats, it's because you're planning to hijack the plane, so you're a terrorist.

If you like any other kind of seats you're obviously mentally unbalanced, so you're a terrorist.

Re:TERRORISM!

[adaminnj]

I'll take the rumble seat please.

Re:TERRORISM!

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Fly an airplane into buildings, killing thousands of civilians? TERRORISM!
2. Set off bombs in the London Underground and on a bus and kill 52 innocent people? TERRORISM!
3. Kill a film director for calling a skunk stinky? TERRORISM!

and it was people of what religion doing these things? TERRORISTS!

hmm, how many thousand more things can be listed here? How many people so willing deny what is happening, in the face of so many facts?

religion of peace my ass.

Re:TERRORISM!

[Pig Hogger]

Kosher meal? TERRORISM!

If only jews were truly treated like the true terrorists they are...

After all, 90% of the cause of middle-east terrorism is because of the US's support of the zionist occupation of Palestine, thanks to the jews ' manipulation of the US media.
(Oh, and before modding me down, please note that I can end up in jail for saying this; the first amendment stops at the US border, and I am beyond those...)

Re:TERRORISM!

[Anonymous Coward]

"zionist occupation of Palestine"

blah, blah, blah....

the jews owned that area far long before the muslims, sorry tiger

Everyone knows that the Islamists hate the Jews...

[Anonymous Coward]

So... in order to defeat this, all the terrorists have to do is order the Kosher meal?

Staying within the law? you can still be punished.

[Anonymous Coward]

How is it within a government's rights to do this? Can someone start their own airline where they dont follow this crap? Passengers will fly at their own risk.

Think about it, if a person can get put on a "no fly" list having never done a single crime in their life .. is that not a great injustice?

So basically, even if you have always fully complied with the laws of the land, you can still be prohibited from doing things that others can do .. even those with a felony criminal history. Furthermore, you are not told what behavior will result in your deprivation of these flying rights. That wreaks of secret laws. Government derives it's power from the consent of the governed, if the governed are not informed of what actions their rights get taken away for .. how is that legitimate?

No doubt, if you went up to the men who spoke of government's role as simply securing the already inherent god given rights of people (Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, or any of the foundeing fathers) with these ideas to "keep America secure" you'd win yourself a huge a punch across the face.

Re:Since we all know that you MUST be a terrorist

[Anonymous Coward]

*You enjoy food from the Middle East (they probably have a Middle-Eastern mid-flight meal SOMEWHERE) after trying some at a small suburban restaraunt near your Pakistani coworker.

I'd guess the categories involved in the "food" profiling were "not halal", "halal, but not specifically designed as such", and "specifically designed as halal", making that one nothing but a way of giving "terrorist points" to Muslims specifically under the guise of statistical objectivity.

i have only one question

[circletimessquare]

slashdot management: how much money did you make selling the us govt your karma system?

they probably do this for domestic travels as well

[blindd0t]

I'm not saying this out of paranoia - I'm saying this from personal experiences. I took a trip about a year ago to attend my brother's wedding. As luck would have it, my birthday had passed while I was at my travel destination, and with all the wedding and family stuff going on, I failed to realize that my drivers license had expired while I was at my travel destination. When I went to go on my return flight, I was flagged for "special" scanning/treatment, and I've been "randomly selected" to be frisked every time I travel after that as well. They can look through my bags all they want, but I must admit I seriously dislike (though I tolerate it to avoid conflict with the TSA) being frisked like that by some stranger every time I travel.

I'm certain some good jokes will follow this, but at least learn from my mistake: make sure your drivers license (even though is technically valid 30 days after expiration) does not expire in the midst of your travels!

Not really...

[NineNine]

Actually, having sex (or looking like you're having sex) on a plane will send you straight to a federal prison by men with big guns pointed at your head. Welcome to the People's Republic of America!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/14/sex.plane.ap/ind ex.html

Re:Not really...

[dgatwood]

In the cabin!?!

Re:Not really...

[Brushfireb]

Hah. They werent having sex, they were being drunk assholes who happened to also be fooling around.

But you might be right..

Question.....

[8127972]

.... What makes us think that DHS wasn't already doing this (and they told nobody about it)?

Tracking travel by car?

[drewzhrodague]

Are they tracking travel by car? I make road trips -- plane-distance road trips. I do this instead of flying -- mostly because it is cheaper, but also because of the convenience.

So on these road trips, there are quite a number of communications towers, as well as these interesting localized sensor packs, complete with wind sensors, some have a camera, and there are other prongs which stick out of their little mast. Sometimes they have solar power, too. I've been tempted to investigate, but I'd probably want to put the more interesting bits in my car, and I don't want a closeup of my face to be the last thing transmitted.

I can't imagine they'd record licenseplates, though that could be one of the purposes. Anyone else see these things on the highway?

Re:Tracking travel by car?

[DoktorTomoe]

If they look something like this http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:SES_Staumelder_A 5.JPG, they might be simply sensors for detecting traffic jams (this particular model is quite common in Germany)...

If they look like http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:LKW_Maut_Deutsch land_Messbruecke_Detail.jpg, they might be some toll road tracking devices, and yes, over here, they actually do track license plates...

Re:Tracking travel by car?

[0jjjjjjjjjj0]

Don't forget the weather sensors that are very well suited to being placed in the middle of dual carriageway (as long as it has a decent median strip), as it's usually a fairly open, exposed place, ideal for wind speed measurement and accurate temperature/humidity readings. They're solar powered as they're often not near powerlines (and draw so little current it's not worth hooking them up to the mains), and have antennae due to their hourly communication with the mothership, aka weather bureau.

Re:Tracking travel by car?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should figure they are doing at least some tracking of car movement via license plate photos.
If you take toll roads in Illinois, they take pictures at toll booths to help catch cheaters. You can be pretty safe in assuming
DHS gets records of those photos.
There are red light cameras in any areas of the US. Some of that data probably also gets fed back to DHS, but I imagine that isn't
done as much because of the numner of municipallities involved. But it will be eventually. In London they are doing this to
keep people from not paying the congestion charge to drive there (at least as a cover reason).

Well you know how it goes.

[Micklewhite]

I imagine you would be able to figure out your rating pretty quick if you went to check into your flight, and the person behind the counter said 'Oh I'm sorry, but you've been banned from this flight. You're viewed as a potential threat'. Then you'd say 'WHAT?! What the hell did I ever do?!' then they'd say 'We're not allowed to disclose that information, though from the looks of it, it might have had something to do with the chicken'.

How can anyone think profiling works?

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

First there's the games theory problem. Stop everyone from Saudi Arabia from boarding airplanes, and the killers will put locally recruited types like John Walker Lindh onto airplanes.

Second, nobody has a monopoly on killing innocent people. From Salon's Patrick Smith, via Bruce Schneier's blog:

        * In 1985, Air India Flight 182 was blown up over the Atlantic by:

            a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
            b. Bill O'Reilly
            c. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir
            d. Indian Sikh extremists, in retaliation for the Indian Army's attack on the Golden Temple shrine in Amritsar

        * In 1986, who attempted to smuggle three pounds of explosives onto an El Al jetliner bound from London to Tel Aviv?

            a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
            b. Michael Smerconish
            c. Bob Mould
            d. A pregnant Irishwoman named Anne Murphy

        * In 1962, in the first-ever successful sabotage of a commercial jet, a Continental Airlines 707 was blown up with dynamite over Missouri by:

            a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
            b. Ann Coulter
            c. Henry Rollins
            d. Thomas Doty, a 34-year-old American passenger, as part of an insurance scam

        * In 1994, who nearly succeeding in skyjacking a DC-10 and crashing it into the Federal Express Corp. headquarters?

            a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
            b. Michelle Malkin
            c. Charlie Rose
            d. Auburn Calloway, an off-duty FedEx employee and resident of Memphis, Tenn.

        * In 1974, who stormed a Delta Air Lines DC-9 at Baltimore-Washington Airport, intending to crash it into the White House, and shot both pilots?

            a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
            b. Joe Scarborough
            c. Spalding Gray
            d. Samuel Byck, an unemployed tire salesman from Philadelphia

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[fithmo]

As any Homeland Security drone could tell you: the obvious answer to all of those is 'a'.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct answers please...

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Monopoly - no

95% - yes

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[drkich]

* In 1986, who attempted to smuggle three pounds of explosives onto an El Al jetliner bound from London to Tel Aviv?

                        a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
                        b. Michael Smerconish
                        c. Bob Mould
                        d. A pregnant Irishwoman named Anne Murphy

The answer is A. She is an Irishwoman best known as the former girlfriend of the Jordanian terrorist Nezar Hindawi. While she was pregnant with his child, Hindawi convinced her to unknowingly take an explosives-laden bag on board an El Al flight. Nezar was born in 1954 and when this was committed, 1986, he was 32 years old.

I agree, there are other people that want to kill people, just get the facts straight.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[neoform]

No no no, people don't want to think about THOSE terrorists, Timothy McVey way really just a nice american pie type guy who just got mad. Muslims are bred and trained from birth for one thing; to hate and want to kill Americans. You simply can't compare the two..!

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[RsG]

And this shows the effectiveness of profiling how exactly? I'm sorta lost how looking for a muslim male, age 17-40, would have helped in her case. Yes, the responsible party was muslim, but what we're talking about here is the effectiveness of profiling systems, and in such a case as this, they would have failed utterly.

Remember, the GP said nothing of the root causes in each case. He merely said who was carrying the bombs - because that's who airport security is trying to catch. Your point is no refutation of his.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Seraphim1982]

Second, nobody has a monopoly on killing innocent people. From Salon's Patrick Smith, via Bruce Schneier's blog:

                * In 1986, who attempted to smuggle three pounds of explosives onto an El Al jetliner bound from London to Tel Aviv?
                        d. A pregnant Irishwoman named Anne Murphy

That's probably the worst example I could think of if your trying to defend Arabs from the "Arabs want to blow up airplaes" sterotype. Ann Murphy had no intention of killing anyone. Her Jordanian fiancée, Nizar Hindawi, planted those three pounds of explosives in her bag and convinced her to go on the trip. When he was captured he claimed that this was done at the urging of high ranking officers in the Syrian Airforce. In short: At the behest of Syria a "Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40" was willing to kill his fiancée, his child, and 375 passengers.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, let's try using logic for a minute (not that I expect that to work with such a braindead bigot).

In response to the grandparent post, you claim that, of all the innocent people killed in the world, Muslims are responsible for 95% of the killings.

Setting aside this ludicrously stupid claim, let me present you with my own claim. The difference is that my claim is true: I claim that 100% of human murders are committed by humans. (Sure, you might have a few freak attacks by chimpanzees that you'd classify as murder, but that would be an insignificant digit.)

So, we know that 100% of these killers are human. All we need to do now is crack down on all the humans, right?

That's the logical conclusion of your stupidity, but you probably have trouble following it. I'll clarify for you: even if 95% of murders were committed by Muslim men (which is verifiably false, to the degree that it's dumb to even consider with a straight face), statistically, close to 100% of Muslim men would still be innocent.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Another nice example of the lack of ability to profile........

*In 1945, August 6th, who bombed an entire city full of innocents?

      a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
      b. Celine Dion
      c. Wil Wheton
      d. The United States in one of the worst bombings of all time?

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

*In 1945, August 6th, who bombed an entire city full of innocents?

They were not innocents. They did not follow the Lord, had not sworn allegiance to the President and they never bought their children a Happy Meal(tm).

And if you think Muslims never will nuke an entire city, I fear you will be proven wrong my friend.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Total_Wimp]

You are awesome.

In addition to the air sabotage you mentioned, one of the most feared terrorist organizations in the eighties and nineties was the IRA. True, they weren't feared much by us because they didn't strike at us, but neither did the PLO.

Of those that did strike at us, we probably had the most fear about very loosely connected "patriots" in our country that belonged to groups that often called themselves "militias". Of these groups and, others vaguely related, various law enforcement agencies often confiscated positively scary quantities of guns and ammo. These groups largely peaked around the time of the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma City, which Timothy McVeigh stated was done because of his sympathy, if not actual participation, with these groups.

I think Timmy, the members of the various "militias" and the members of the IRA would be very unlikely to be swept up in the "Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40" category. In fact, plain ol' white folk in our country have a surprisingly high propensity to get caught up in emotional issues that then lead to them feeling they need to destroy something. The KKK, for example, has largely stuck to acts of terror on individuals, but has not been against firebombing a school building or such here and there. Anti-abortion activists have found both non-lethal and murderous ways to terrorize abortion clinics and doctors.
Once again, these haven't been on planes, but does it make them any less lethal or scary? Does that fact that these things were done by largely white Westerners mean it's not actual terror? Maybe it's just that since we understand (note: understanding does notj equal agreement) many of the reasons behind these acts, they don't instill the same sense of terror in us as mostly nameless, faceless terrorist fighting for something or other in the Middle East.
People need to remember to ask themselves what might be coming from their right if they place all their attention on their left. We need to look both ways when crossing this street. Terrorists are all over the place. If you check every guy with brown skin and a beard, you're likely to find out the hard way that your very white, nice, clean cut neighbor is the one that's really upset about [insert cause here] and thinks a few hundred people need to die to show the world just how mad he really is.

If you want a war on Islamic Fundimentalists, then at least have the balls to say it. If you want a "war on terror", then my friend, terror starts at home.

TW

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[yali]

First there's the games theory problem. Stop everyone from Saudi Arabia from boarding airplanes, and the killers will put locally recruited types like John Walker Lindh onto airplanes.

As long as you're using concepts from game theory, let's introduce the concept of "zero sum." Because it's not just that profiling doesn't work - profiling may actually worsen security.

At any given point in time, a security checkpoint has fixed amount of resources to scrutinize passengers. Under profiling, you are devoting greater manpower to searching the Arabs' bags than you would under no profiling. That means that you are actually devoting less resources to scrutinizing the pregnant Irishwomen's bags than you would under no profiling. So if the bad guys can make an educated guess about who does and doesn't fit the profile, profiling actually helps them.

Profiling + Savvy bad guys = Worse security

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically I didnt say they wouldnt. I said they havent...... though the States has. Maybe they should track everyone from or headed to the States from any other country in the world.

The Lord does not factor into any of this. If it was a war about religions........... Its not, leave it out.

The President of the States does not rule any other country, as far as I last knew. Might wanna double check that.......

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

So as the original poster and you pointed out we have to be on the lookout for pregnant Irishwoman. Those devils. (i know I know, it was a jordanian terrorist operating in the background, but he wasn't present and in the scenario depicted security would have to have been out to search pregnant Irishwoman). Racial profiling is such a crock, if I was a muslim extremist I would just hire someone not too brown by proxy and deliver a dose of death that way. The current system only catches obvious people and idiots, neither one of which would be effective at coming up with attacks. What this system does is a fantastic job of making US citizens accept profiling of law abiding citizens.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

So if the bad guys can make an educated guess about who does and doesn't fit the profile, profiling actually helps them.

Hence the reason the scores assigned to travelers aren't being released :)

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

all are "A" except first question which is "B"

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

*original poster of the Hiroshima question again*

Mostly I just wanted to point out that no single nation has a monopoly on acts of terror. Just because one of the worst in more recent memory is 9\11, dont forget that countries, not extremists are usually the worst perpetrators.

To date, the US wins. Flat out. Almost 200,000 dead from one single bomb. One bomb. And Japan joined into the war because the Western Nations wouldn't accept their Emperor. Provoked and then finishing the adversary that they created with Littly Boy......... Can't say that the 'States has any right to track others based on this fact alone.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[siufish]

Man, I hope you aren't going back to college anytime soon. You seriously need to brush up on your multiple choice skills.

The fact is, the terrorist himself DID NOT attempt to bomb the plane. "A pregnant Irishwoman named Anne Murphy" did. So how does profiling work again? Do we need to know all people within six degrees of separation from you?

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the point was that profiling based on your race, what you eat, where you sit, and where you've been before won't work.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[toddhisattva]

Stop everyone from Saudi Arabia from boarding airplanes, and the killers will put locally recruited types like John Walker Lindh onto airplanes.

Golly, you're smart. You need to send that ASAP to the TSA immediately. I'm sure nobody there has ever thought as good as you.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Calydor]

As has been stated elsewhere, this is about profiling. Anne Murphy boarded the plane. Security was looking for Muslim extremists. Security would have waved Anne on and congratulated her on her pregnancy.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't this make the profiling system that much less useful? You'll allow people named Ann Murphy on planes, or people named John Lindh on planes, and they could be just as destructive. Whether on purpose or not.

The research has already concluded that profiling, by its very nature, is not even game-theoretically optimal. Real terrorists will only keep pushing more people around until they identify the profiles that tend to get through, and recruit/blackmail those kinds of people into submission.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry dude, I've no mod points today. Otherwise, one of the most insiteful commets I've read for a while.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Lord does not factor into any of this. If it was a war about religions........... Its not, leave it out.

Listen more closely and you'll hear the President when he speaks about the Lord being on the side of His troops.

It's not a war about religion, it's a war about culture. Who gets to rule the world. The President is stopping the Muslims to dominate the New World.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[spasm]

all are 'd'.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[dryeo]

Actually Nagasaki was/is the only Christian city in Japan, and the target was the cathedral. Sad thing is a lot of survivors of Hiroshima headed for Nagasaki thinking the Americans would never nuke a Christian city.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

drkich, you're a fucking idiot. You need to relearn your reading comprehension skills. So do the morons who modded this jackass +5.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Phew. I thought you were going to say it was Bob Mould. I mean, his lyrics are depressing but...

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Archtech]

I think you have missed the point. Profiling could not have detected Hindawi, as he was not a passenger on the aircraft. It was Murphy who had the explosives, so it was Murphy whom the profilers had to detect.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

But over 97% of mass-murders are commited by muslim men (and women). See khartoem, sudan, mogadishu and ethiopia (and others) for the current big problems.

Then there is the question as to WHY this is the case. And then you check the muslim holy book, you know, the one they always tell you to check, and :

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the infidels wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 9:5)

And then you say ... hmmm. (btw there's tons more of statements like that in the koran)

Add to that that every muslim mass-murderer also says that he did it because of these verses and then you start seeing the problem.

--

Let's make a comparison. Why these 2 things. First nothing about racism you can easily compare any two things, especially 2 things that are basically ideas. Why these 2 ? Because it illustrates a glaring problem :

Islam - Nazism

1. Does the ideology inspire people to kill others ?
Islam - Yes, as the londen bomber said "He who kills in the name of allah is excused", see http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for a more complete list
Nazism - Yes, see "Final Solution", amongst others

2. Does the ideology inspire people to repress large parts of their own population with extreme measures ?
Islam - Yes, see http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idartic le=6845
Nazism - Yes, http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/people/victims.htm

3. Is the ideology completely opposed to personal choice and democracy ?
Islam - Yes, see http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=15522
Nazism - Yes, see takeover and disbanding of parliament in Germany before the war

4. Does the ideology indoctrinate children with ideas of hate ?
Islam - Yes, see http://www.pmw.org.il/schoolbooks.html (I couldn't find the link about the western "madrassas", that are at least equally bad)
Nazism - This is how they "started" (if you are willing to accept that nazism started, while in reality it has always existed, and prevails even today, but this is what allowed it to expand enough to do damage)

Isn't this exactly what made nazism bad ? Why do we forgive muslims for forcing idiocies like this on their children ?

So you see "islamofascism" is not that bad a name for the ideology of terrorists/taliban/iran's mullahs(/saudis) (because they also match on the other points, the socialism part). It has the added advantage of implying that someone can be muslim without being an islamofascist. (btw, in every muslim country, like egypt, or morocco, they call the terrorists "islamists", also implying a direct connection between the religion and the terrorism)

So yes, if someone is muslim, we try check if they are an islamofascist or not. That's just common sense. A muslim and an islamofascist are 2 coins of the same ideology. If muslims did this themselves, like we try to prevent our own children from becoming nazi's or racists, there would be much less of a problem, and the checks would wither away and die.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[the.WZA]

I'm too lazy the read TFA entirely but I can't help from thinking about the Carnival Booth paper: http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/6805/student-papers/sp ring02-papers/caps.htm

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[CaptainZapp]

Yep! That's even researched and documented as the Carnival Booth Algorithm

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Bastard of Subhumani]

if I was a muslim extremist I would just hire someone not too brown by proxy and deliver a dose of death that way.

... and obviously, they'd only get paid on sucessful completion of the task and if they collect the fee in person.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Hognoxious]

And Japan joined into the war because the Western Nations wouldn't accept their Emperor.

Utter tripe. They were after natural resources - oil and rubber.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

"But over 97% of mass-murders are commited by muslim men (and women)."

If ignorance is bliss, you must be in a state of constant orgasmic euphoria.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Okay ... for every non-muslim attack you can come up with I'll give you 19 muslim islam-motivated attacks.

Ready ? Set ... start.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Either you're trolling, or you lead a very sheltered life.

Bosnian genocide: around 200,000 killed (note that this is predominantly Muslims being murdered, en masse, by Christians)

Rwandan genocide: 800,000-1,000,000 massacred, based on genetic ancestry

That should be enough for you to start. There are plenty more where those came from (i.e., recent history, on the actual planet Earth).

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[mr100percent]

The correct answer to them all is "D"

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[mr100percent]

But over 97% of mass-murders are commited by muslim men (and women). See khartoem, sudan, mogadishu and ethiopia (and others) for the current big problems.

South America would disagree with you, as well as those who suffered under the Holocaust. What about the Russian secret police? The Ugandan Lord's Resistance Army? Jim Jones? Hindus rioting in Gujarat? Buddhists massacring people in Burma? The Khmer Rouge? Don't be so completely unthinking as to think that Muslims are the main killers, and don't assume every single Muslim supports this. Terrorism and murder are both internationally condemned by Muslim leaders.

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the infidels wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 9:5) That verse is referring to the pagan idolators in Mecca who were trying to exterminate the Muslims. It does not give license to do terrorism or slaughter, and the Quran also says, "if they make peace, you make peace."

Come on, look how stupid your argument is. The bible is filled with genocide:

Deuteronomy 2:32 - 35
The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

Deuteronomy 3:6
The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

Joshua 6:21
21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Deuteronomy 7:2
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Deutenomomy 20:16
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

Judges 18:27
27 Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city.

Does that mean Judaism and Christianity are evil? Should we be having a war against these religions for their supposed intolerance? Pulling things out of context is stupid.

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

As you very well know in Bosnia BOTH parties were mass-murdering. As you say yourself, muslims were involved, and not just as victims.

These are all massacres motivated by islam from recent history (last 30-40 years) :

Turkish Armenian Genocide on christians : 1
Syrian Genocide on palestinians : 2 (which was, btw, not unprovoked, as palestinians definitely started this)
Iraqi Genocide of the kurds : 3
Iraqi Genocide of the druze : 4
Iraqi Genocide on christians : 5
(there are more, much more in iraq, so I'm adding 3) : 8
The lebanese "revolution" (where hezbollah commited at least 5-10 genocides, one on american troops, also the PLO commited 2 times crimes that definitely qualify, in retaliation the christians also massacred a number of muslims) : 13
Afghanistan massacre : 14
Second afghani massacre led by current head of taliban : 15
Iran massacres during islamic revolution (2 of them that we know of) : 17
Iraq : Shiite massacres against Sunni's 5 incidents (and counting) : 22
Iraq : Sunni massacres (mostly against mahdi army supporters or soldiers) : 7 incidents (and counting) : 29

Ok started ... finished. Any questions ? Note that for most of these massacres statements from the leaders are available that establish undeniably that they did it for islam. Here's one of the often quoted justifications, straight from the book of the paedophile prophet :

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Infidels wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 9:5)

Re:How can anyone think profiling works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it very telling, as a sign of your dishonesty, that you list numbers of massacres rather than numbers of victims.

You originally claimed "over 97% of mass-murders are commited by muslim men (and women)." Are you now saying you didn't mean the number of deaths from those murders; you only meant the number of discrete "murder incidents" as categorized by your arbitrary criteria?

If so, you might as well claim that over 99% of American communities are Muslim -- then, when I dispute your obvious deceit, you can say that all of the non-Muslims are a single "community" and the Muslims consist of hundreds of communities.

It's increasingly pointless to argue with someone who lies in nearly every sentence, and who seems unable to understand even the most basic logic. I'll give you one more chance to prove you have a shred of honesty: list the 19,000,000 people killed in mass-murders by Muslim men (or women). 19,000,000 fits the 19-to-1 ratio you promised; I'm even giving you an advantage and using the lower bound of Rwandans killed. Actually, tell you what: since you were deceitfully using arbitrary "groups of murders" rather than numbers of deaths to exaggerate your statistics, I'll even let you off on the 19-to-1 detail. Just provide 1,000,000 people mass-murdered by Muslim men (or women).

You don't have to list them individually, just add up the numbers from reasonably credible sources, and give approximate dates or widely known names of the incidents. If you manage to do this, I will in turn list more people mass-murdered by non-Muslims within the same time frame, and we can continue like that if you like.

I guarantee nowhere close to 97% of the murders will have been committed by Muslims. (In this situation, "nowhere close" is an understatement, which a mind less addled than yours might clearly perceive.)

random preferences

[l3v1]

how they paid for tickets, ..., seating preference and the meals they ordered in-flight

Except I, for one, very rarely pay myself for the tickets, never choose explicitly any of the rest, I simply don't care. So, when should I expect them to come for me ? :|
 

Re:random preferences

[Raynor]

Obviously you are a terrorist since you don't care about things which all true americans care about.

I think they might also want to add not needing a lapbelt extension to the list of things terrorists conform to.

Show me one obese terrorists... just one. Seeing no one, that means most of Americans are definately not terrorists.

---

You all want to see the evidence the government will use against you?

Pfft.
That is doubleplusungood crimethink!

Re:random preferences

[Anonymous Coward]

You have it backwards. By showing you don't care, you win the "model american" award.

peanuts

[netsfr]

I wonder if my meal choice of the little bag of 9 peanuts will put me on the list?

Mod: Beverage of your choice thru-the-nose-worthy

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the funniest one-line comeback I've read here in 6 months. Also the saddest but truest.

Re:Everyone knows that the Islamists hate the Jews

[Anonymous Coward]

you are a tard!
Haala and Kosher are the same thing. (well almost)

A "terrorists" would prefer a kosher meal over a pork bolonia sandwitch in a stail sub roll. (inflight meal)

did I say you are stupid? well you are. I'm glad that I know all Americans are not as stupid as you or I would want to kill them all too!

and I'm a American.

The reason for meal choices

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey guys, just as a little PROTIP regarding the reason for meal choices, oh yeah and liquid bans.
The food someone orders in addition to seat choices and other information can be used in determining the most likely suspect if an aircraft explodes. If someone tries to order a cellulose of some sort such as coffee grinds, a lot of tea, etc, it can be mixed with hydroperoxide to form an explosive compound. It may seem like theres a lot of criterion which are extraneous, but that's only because you don't know what you're talking about. The liquids ban was to prevent similar situation probably based on some sort of intel tipoff. I agree we need to keep a muzzle on these black gloved operations, but please educate yourself first.

Now, in b4 the partyvan comes to take me away for 'providing means or instruction'.

Re:The reason for meal choices

[Xyrus]

Hydroperoxide is the name given to a class of compounds of the form HOOH. The most basic of these being household hydrogen peroxide.

Most hydroperoxides are flammable in sufficient quantities, and hardly pose a threat to an airliner unless you talking igniting gallons or vaporizing a bunch than igniting it. Neither being very feasible on an aircraft.

The explosive hydroperoxides that you refer to are extremely UNSTABLE compounds. They are friction and agitation sensitive, and in industry where they are a byproduct they spend serious cash to safely dispose of these materials.

In other words, you wouldn't be carrying these on a plane even IF you could make it without it blowing up in your face (no small task in and of itself). Still, even if you did make it and somehow managed to keep it from exploding while you're walking around with it, you'd need like a two liter bottle of the stuff to wreck a jetliner. In other words, compared to other explosives it it pretty weak.

I think you need to read up a little more on hydroperoxides.

~X~

Re:The reason for meal choices

[Anonymous Coward]

lol V& /b/rotha!

Re:The reason for meal choices

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually... I dont mean to sound like a back-and-forth, but you might not understand what I'm saying. When you combine high purity peroxide with a quality cellulose in a container, it creates a very unstable compound...
Smuggle in a bottle of peroxide in a water bottle, a normal bag of peanuts, some more peanuts and junk from the airline, a few teabags... go grind it up in the washroom and mix together... That's how it works. more or less, I've left a few things out just so I'm not a terrorist, but this info is out there anyway. Yes it creates a very unstable compound when mixed... but that's the objective of such a reaction... You're going for explosions here.
These are the reasons despite whatever roundabout conspiracy people might be talking about.

Re:The reason for meal choices

[Builder]

The liquid ban was bullshit hysteria caused by some flawed intel in the UK.

As for ordering tea, the TSA are only able to collect data about stuff that you order as part of your travel experience... i.e. when you make / amend your booking. If you ask for a lot of tea, you'll either be doing this to the hostess (in which case no record) or on the ground.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Lies ?

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

We try to make better guesses on whether someone is a mass-murderer, based on past behavior
They ... well I really can't describe it any better than this : http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idartic le=6845

And we also tell them that newspapers lie for political correctness, then don't fix the mess they create :
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/006452.htm

Or worse :
http://www.seconddraft.org/movies.php

Or worse :
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/corruptio n-of-media.html

And then you read your headline again ... then think 5 seconds on who is more honest
-> the policeman that can get fired when he steps a toe out of line and checks airline passengers
-> or the reporter who is not checked by anyone, a sensationalist, and has a political affiliation

Then you think another 5 seconds.

Obvious joke pre-alert

[Tired and Emotional]

So I guess one should avoid ordering the snake shishkebab.

It's called data mining

[daemonenwind]

What the government is probably trying to do here is gather any data the airline captures and see if there are any trends.

After some time, there may be a trend that terrorists always get the $5 snack pack with orange soda. Hey, you don't know.

Re:It's called data mining

[2short]

Yes, we do know. The rate of actual terrorists is far too tiny to possibly produce any statistically significant results. If every terrorist ever ordered the snack pack with orange soda and paid cash for their ticket, etc. etc., they would still be a tiny fraction of the people that fit that profile.

Re:It's called data mining

[u-235-sentinel]

What the government is probably trying to do here is gather any data the airline captures and see if there are any trends.

After some time, there may be a trend that terrorists always get the $5 snack pack with orange soda. Hey, you don't know.

The sad thing is our Government is so paranoid to the point that we don't need no stinking terrorists to destroy our country. We're already doing it to ourselves in the name of saving ourselves from the "bad guys".

The terrorists are winning because our Government is afraid.

Re:they probably do this for domestic travels as w

[dgatwood]

Your state is weird. Everywhere I've ever lived, they send out an updated license with a new expiration date several weeks ahead of time. Thus, you were almost certainly flagged on suspicion of having a fake driver's license, not because it was expired....

In all liklihood

[PingXao]

They are applying them to domestic travelers as well and we just don't know about that yet.

why profiling Muslims won't work

[kevintron]

Every time a story comes up on this topic I see a few people saying we ought to start profiling Muslims, and the only reason we aren't doing it is political correctness. There's a huge flaw in that theory: The obvious and easily profiled Muslims are the openly pious ones who are most likely to be peaceful and least likely to carry out any terrorist attack.

The real extremists, the ones who are willing to commit terrorism, are more likely to believe their religion allows them to pretend to be something else in order to defeat their enemies. They may not want to wear Western clothing, shave their beards, dye their skin pale white, take on Anglo-American names, forego their daily prayers, or eat pork rib platters for dinner, but extremists will do all of those things and more if it gives them a chance to strike at their perceived enemies. This is why ethnic profiling would be ineffective at best, and any feelings of safety it might create would be utterly false.

The refusal to openly endorse profiling of Muslims and Middle Eastern people in general is one of the things our government is actually doing right. Most of the people in these categories are not enemies of civilization. It would be a huge strategic mistake to treat all of them as if they were.

Re:why profiling Muslims won't work

[cdrguru]

Agreed that not all extremists would be found by some kind of profiling. Certainly just going after Middle Eastern looking men would be foolish.

However, it would be doing something. Today, we are doing nothing at all except making air travel more difficult for everyone. It would be trivial to circumvent the TSA folks to bring banned items onto a plane. Carbon-fiber knives are not caught by the TSA. Neither is anything that is in a "shielding" container. So, you put your grenade in a can.

We pretty much know that El Al style passenger screening isn't going to fly in the US. Too many people and nobody wants a 2-4 hour delay before boarding. So what are we going to do? Many have proposed just letting it drop and considering the next 9/11 bunch of casualties to be "acceptable", like credit card companies consider some level of fraud to be "acceptable". Realistically, there are a few options. TSA feel-good security is going to fall apart at some point when enough people realize it is just a nusiance and isn't real "security" at all.

So, do we focus our attention and maybe still let 10% of potential terrorists get through while blocking 90%, or do we do nothing and just write off 2-3,000 people every few years?

Re:why profiling Muslims won't work

[Abcd1234]

However, it would be doing something.

So what you're saying is that doing the wrong thing is good, as long as it makes you "feel" better?

Have you ever heard of the term Truthiness?

Re:why profiling Muslims won't work

[FunWithKnives]

You're forgetting one available option: Quit fucking around with "security theater", find out why people in the Middle East are so insanely pissed off at the USA, and deal with it. Honestly, though, that doesn't look promising to me. I am just a citizen, and even I could tell you right now what the cause of all of this is. It's not that the government doesn't know why. It's that they want to pretend that the root causes do not exist. And that, my friends, is going to be the downfall of our country sooner or later.

"Because they hate our freedom" is just a fucking bullshit sound byte for our politicians to use.

Re:why profiling Muslims won't work

[freedom_india]

It doesn't matter. These guys have been fighting each other since 1,000 years ago for one reason or another.
First it was Moslems and Christians in the crusade, then it was divisions within Mosel religion, the it was the Prophet or prophet's son, then it was israel, and so on.
If they didn't hold the World to Ransom with their Oil, we would be happy to let them kill themselves in their own drug-induced frenzy.
Sadly their oil resources make them more important than they are.
Once we find a reliable alternative to Oil, am sure we would "freeing them" from their tyranny.

Re:they probably do this for domestic travels as w

[Anonymous Coward]

You should write or call your senator or representative. I believe that the security insanity is too far gone for anybody in government to take exception to general policies, but you have been singled out for special treatment because of an honest mistake, and now you're stuck with it apparently forever. Appeal to your elected representative for help, he may actually be able to do something for you, and you can think of it as a fairly easy way to make things a very little bit better. I completely understand why you would tolerate this in the airport, but when you're safely at home you should raise a little hell with people who are supposed to be sympathetic to you.

Re:they probably do this for domestic travels as w

[EGSonikku]

I'm in California and when my DL expired I had to go to the DMV, fill out a form, and pay something like $20 to renew my license. It's possible the DMV mailed me something, but I don't recall ever getting it.

Muslims hijacked more planes than your examples

[Anonymous Coward]

On 9/11, Muslim male extremists successfully hijacked four planes, and successfully crashed three of them into their intended targets. Your five examples of non-Muslim events have only two planes going down, one of them 21 years ago, the other one 44 years ago. And only the one 44 years ago was in the US.

Use some more recent examples, please.

Even then, your one example that's more recent than 20 years ago is an inside job - the FedEx exec who was riding in the cockpit when he attacked the flight crew with a hammer.

And of your five examples, only two actually brought down the jet.

Only two examples, a combined 65 fucking years ago.

With all those logical contortions, you can't even come close to what male Muslim extremists between the ages of 17 and 40 did on 9/11 - four planes down, three targets hit, thousands of dead.

What was the point you were trying to make again?

And while you're at it, please explain who perpetrated the London bombings. The Bali bombings. The Madrid bombings. Who planned on destroying multiple airliners this last summer?

Would they ALL have been done by "Muslim male extremists between 17 and 40"? Got the balls to actually answer that question?

No, all Muslims are not terrorists. But damn near all terrorists are Muslims - so much so that you've got to pull out examples from damn near half a century ago to lamely try and prove otherwise.

"Insightful", my ass. "Inciteful drivel" would be much more accurate.

Re:Muslims hijacked more planes than your examples

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I had mod points...
But..because I agree with you, I'll never have mod points.

Re:Muslims hijacked more planes than your examples

[mojodamm]

1927 the deadliest mass murder in US school history was perpetrated by?

A. Tom Cruise?
B. Beetle Bailey?
C. Muslim extremists?
D. A white male?

In 1955 United Airlines Flight 629 was blown up by?

A. Oprah Winfrey?
B. The Riddler?
C. Muslim extremists?
D. A white male?

In 1996 the record-breaking Port Arthur Massacre was commited by?

A. Carlos Mencia?
B. Dragons?
C. Muslim extremists?
D. A white male?

The Alfred P. Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City was blown up by?

A. Dale Earnhardt?
B. Ghandi?
C. Muslim extremists?
D. A white male?

The deadliest attack on children in UK history, the Dunblane Massacre, was committed by?

A. Roy Rogers?
B. KISS?
C. Muslim extremists?
D. A white male?


On 9/11, Muslim male extremists successfully hijacked four planes, and successfully crashed three of them into their intended targets. Your five examples of non-Muslim events have only two planes going down, one of them 21 years ago, the other one 44 years ago. And only the one 44 years ago was in the US.

So, is your point that Muslims make more successful terrorists, or what? Or that terrorism by Muslims is a more recent trend? Not sure what point you're trying to make by asking for more 'recent' examples. Just because it happened outside of your attention span doesn't make it any less pertinent.

So, can we PLEASE drop the racial/religious profiling, and just focus on the individuals involved, instead of blindly regurgitating hateful propoganda? Thanks.

Re:Muslims hijacked more planes than your examples

[Evilest Doer]

Instead of modding parent -1 Troll, perhaps he should have been modded -1 Truth Hurts Too Much and I'm a Stupid Fucking American.

Re:Muslims hijacked more planes than your examples

[zacronos]

Who are you to speak about "logical contortions" when you state that the two examples of successfully crashed jets have a "combined" age of 65 years ago. Um, and the four jets taken down in 9/11 were a "combined" 20 years ago. That's the most ridiculous twisting of math I've heard since someone showed me a "proof" of how 1 == 2.

It would have been more convincing if you'd given the average age, but this is laughable, especially when you mention "logical contortions".

You don't have what it takes to be a good troll.

Shades of discrimination

[puppers]

Using data mining with unpublished parameters to come up with risk assessments isn't that different from just stopping people who look Arab at the gates. Instead of distributing the prejudiced judgements out to thousands of TSA employees to make, they're merely concentrating them in the few people who program the system. It's still prejudice, it's just automated and centralized.
--
I'm lovin' it

Just to jog my memory

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Whom did slashdot blame for not having enough information to prevent 9/11 ? About "signs missed" and stuff like that.

But which is worse?

[akad0nric0]

Passenger profiling, which Israel has shown to be effective (no hijackings since the 80's, with even more enemies than the US), or the current put-everything-they-tried-last-time-in-a-plastic-b aggie approach currently used?

The privacy implications are staggering, no doubt, but I'm glad to see the government at least begin to apply a bit of intelligence into securing air travel. The current system is painful and totally ineffective. The implementation will make all the difference. I'm sure the USG will screw it up, but there's a right way to do this.

Re:But which is worse?

[JazzHarper]

Judging from the replies I've seen here, most slashdot readers don't want the government to do anything (like behavioral profiling) that might have the potential to be effective. That mindset is not unique to this forum. We will continue to see variations of security theatre until the jihadists wipe out a lot more American infidels than they did five years ago.

Re:But which is worse?

[ShnowDoggie]

So if you look funny then should be harassed right? Why not just detain anyone who looks like they are from the middle east? Passenger profiling does protect in Israel. But it also harasses a huge number of innocent folks. Including high level American Officials who happen to have the wrong name. We are spreading a wide net catching mostly good people in hopes that there may be a few rotten apples in the catch. It is crazy.

Common Sense

[mrops]

Now my hind site says this is common sense.

I am a Muslim, and being a Muslim these days I do have a lot to worry about. Not only do I have to worry about terrorist attacks against my family and friends, I also have to worry about people thinking I myself am a terrorist. Particularly people who like the patriot act.

So ever since 9/11 I make sure I never order a Muslim meal, I don't pick seats on flight and I make sure I pay for my ticket with "American" Express or Bank of "America" Credit Card that links directly to my primary account that gets my pay checks from my big name American employer.

Wait... Someone's on the door, I will be right bac@#$!@# @#$%@#$% NO CARRIER!

It's Not True

[mi]

[...] you ordered your meal to be halal then you're flagged as potential terrorist.

I always order Halal — because airline Kosher tends to be too bland. Never had any problems. I am not from a "-stan", but almost so — born and raised in Ukraine, home to a sizable Muslim minority and easy to enter from nearby "-stans". So much for your little fear-mongering theory, is not there?

Then, again, maybe I am flagged as a potential terrorist — don't know. I do know, that so far this has not impacted my lifestyle in the least...

Re:It's Not True

[Chaffar]

Well it's not really MY theory, I'm just assuming that it has to be something along those lines. I don't see any other reason why they would keep track of people's food orders. That being said I was held for 3 hours in US custody for no reason besides having visited too many Arab countries. And I'm an Armenian Christian from France (my dad works as an expat in the Arab Gulf), so don't think they wouldn't stop you based on ONE factor.

Re:It's Not True

[mi]

Well it's not really MY theory, I'm just assuming that it has to be something along those lines.

Well, if you are assuming, then it is your theory — pretty much by definition. Whatever, "theory" or "assumption", it was a wrong one.

That being said I was held for 3 hours in US custody for no reason besides having visited too many Arab countries. And I'm an Armenian Christian from France (my dad works as an expat in the Arab Gulf), so don't think they wouldn't stop you based on ONE factor.

Of course, there may be ONE factor! If you had a bomb with you, you would've spent a few more hours there, for example. But ordering Halal or being from a "-stan" is not such a factor.

There is a Halal food-stand next to where I work, and they are quite popular during lunch hour — their lamb is delicious. You think, every one of their customers is marked as a potential terrorist? Photographed and video-taped from "black helicopters" above?..

Where we live, there are two Halal meat stores. Other businesses. Plenty of Arabs around — you think, they are unduly suspected/molested? No, they are not. In fact, there is an Army recruitment poster next to the subway station in both English and Arabic: "Your country needs you," — or some such.

Oh, yes, and nobody is compelling them to (not) wear anything...

No score for you, but contractors can!

[Brobock]

According to the CNN article about this. You are not allowed to know your score, but they are willing to share this information with private contractors.

Re:No score for you, but contractors can!

[lawpoop]

Not that I would condone this type of activity, but maybe some unscrupulous hackers would electronically steal that information from some poorly-secured contractor's network, and share it with the rest of the world. That would be really awful and only support terrorists, so I hope it doesn't happen.

cool

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds like the government doing marketing research disguised as security. Give them a few more years and the travel industry will be licensing this data, if they aren't already.

Re:Since we all know that you MUST be a terrorist

[ShorePiper82]

All of that is fine but after checking that your name is Bob Smith... your new score on the chart is about 5/100.

US Gov. textbooks say yes

[Anonymous Coward]

A US Government textbook on counter and anti-terrorism I recently reviewed points out that some (famous!) Israeli Prime Ministers have been on international terrorism watch lists in the past.

And although we no longer consider Israelis likely to blow things up on US soil we continue to engage in a significant amount of industrial and governmental (e.g. weapons data) spying on each other.

IF you agree with profiling and IF you establish those profiles based on group behaviors rather than on "who I like" and "who I don't like" ... then, yeah folks from AIPAC or JDL are durn well getting flagged by ATS just like counter-terrorism operations used to keep a close watch on US groups who were friendly with Sinn Fein (sp?).

Re:Since we all know that you MUST be a terrorist

[b0s0z0ku]

*You took a one-way trip to assist in disaster aid in New Orleans or Thailand in the last two years, not knowing when you would be comfortable with/forced to leave the area.

I think that (if the system was remotely smart) it wouldn't raise the rating. What would set off red flags would be one-way flights from certain Middle Eastern countries into the US. Or maybe even flights during the period of an uncompleted round trip from those countries.

-b.

So...

[theworldisflat]

If you order the fried chicken and watermellon, do you get beaten by cops before being sent to git-mo?

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you order the fried chicken and watermellon, do you get beaten by cops before being sent to git-mo?

No, they'll sell you your dope at exorbitant prices and subjugate you to virtual slavery for the heinous crime of wanting a toke everyday after work. You cannot speak out about it, because you'd be risking being exposed as a godless communist dope-smoker and evicted from your home and fired from your job because of the dogma that says all dopesmokers are evil and it is morally wrong. So you keep quiet and pay the price, staying poor despite a decent wage, thus perpetuating the racketeering system of extortion that law enforcement so perversely enjoys administering.

security and laziness

[drDugan]

LAZY: I word I don't like to use -- it is basically the judgmental version of "unmotivated". However, in this case, I think it is justified.

Basically, the law enforcement systems in the USA are being lazy.

With new technology and new communication systems, it is increasingly difficult to both maintain individual freedoms and stop the "bad people" from doing bad things to hurt people.

It's not impossible, just harder.

It's not impossible to actually find the guns and knives and bombs on airplanes, and to only remove individual freedoms from individuals who are actually committing crimes - but it is much EASIER to assume that everyone who has a liquid or a gel MIGHT be a criminal, and to remove the freedoms from everyone.

It is not impossible to actually find the people breaking traffic laws, but instead, it is EASIER to film every car through the city and record and track their location and speed.

It is not impossible to actually find the people who are abusing the children, but instead, it is EASIER to find anyone with a picture of a naked child and ASSUME they are harming children.

It is not impossible to actually find people planning to commit crimes, and stop them before they commit the crime, or track them down afterwards. People with years in law enforcement know this. It is MUCH EASIER to assume that everyone MIGHT be a criminal, and track all their names and activities - in case any of them MIGHT be a criminal.

etc etc etc ...

Without judgment, I understand people want to make their jobs easier. They want to make it faster and better and more seamless to stop the bad behavior in our society. Doing so is become really hard to do well, as technology and mass communication are advancing at a staggering pace.

However, I say to those out there in charge of law enforcement: STEP UP TO THE PLATE. GO READ THE CONSTITUTION. Take the challenge of your job seriously - actually stop the real criminals and leave the rest of the people alone. Ignore them unless you have PROBABLE CAUSE. It would be a little bit harder, but you could put the same effort into building systems that ONLY went after the bad guys and then the broad population of people would SUPPORT YOU in stopping REAL CRIMES. The current methods have ALL the people having to make a choice - to agree to submit and relinquish freedoms or to fight back against you. You will fail in the end if people make that choice, because eventually people will always choose freedom.

It is such a simple message. Sorry for the caps, but people just don't seem to get it.

If you chose anything other than (a)...

[FatSean]

...you hate Amurrica!

Meals?

[sulli]

They serve meals? I doubt very much that DHC could learn anything from my ordering the Red Snack Box.

Re:they probably do this for domestic travels as w

[JDevers]

I've lived in three different states and none have done what you say. All require an up to date photo and an eye check, hard to do that if they send one out automatically. Now, one of the states did send out notices saying that my license was about to expire...but that isn't the same thing.

Why MUST we do SOMETHING?!

[FatSean]

What is with this desire to act when all the available options are poor? That kind of thinking got our forces to leave Afghanistan way before they should have...and shipped them into an unwinnable hellhole.

STFU: 419 Islamic terror attacks since just 8/1/06

[Anonymous Coward]

And not one of these happened in Iraq or Afghanistan. That's FOUR HUNDRED AND NINETEEN ISLAMIC terror attacks worldwide in IN JUST THE LAST FOUR MONTHS! Once again, not one of these happened in Iraq or Afghanistan.

That's more than THREE MUSLIM TERRORIST ATTACKS PER DAY , you jackass. Not per year, not per month. Not even per week. THREE PER FUCKING DAY .

(courtesy of http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html)

I bet if you really, really work your ass off, you can get the number down below two a day by going after all the events listed below and explaining how they're not all Muslim-inspired terrorism. You might knock it down to maybe only two hundred Muslim terrorist acts in the past four months. Gee, if you put a lot of work at you, you can prove that Muslims worldwide are so peaceful that they only commit two whole terrorist attacks per day.

Yep - you're going to have to work your damn ass off just to prove Muslims are so damn peaceful that they commit only two terror attacks per day, worldwide. Not counting anything going on in Iraq or Afghanistan at all.

Goody for you. We're cheering you on in your quest to prove just how peaceful Muslims really are. After you've done that, why don't you teach yourself just how literally irrational Islamic theology is. And it is, too. Islam is literally irrational. That took hold back around 1200 or 1300, which is why all Muslim contributions to civilization took place before then. Now you know why Islamic societies stopped advancing scientifically around that date, and why their culture is literally stuck in the Dark Ages of women as property.

You ignorant fucking jackass. Only now, you can't claim ignorance any more. Will actual knowledge impact your awareness?

STFU, you moron.

Here's the list. Have fun whittling it down.

11/30/06 Somalia Baidoa 4 5 A botched suicide bombing attempt leaves at least four people dead, not including the bombers.
11/30/06 Thailand Pattani 0 1 A 75-year-old man is beaten in his home and set on fire by Muslim radicals.
11/30/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 44-year-old man is murdered by Islamic gunmen.
11/30/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 Thai Islamists gun down a woman in a tea house, severely injuring her daughter as well.
11/28/06 Thailand Yala 2 0 A Buddhist husband and wife are murdered by Islamic gunmen as they return home.
11/27/06 Chechnya Gudermes 1 2 A Russian is killed by Jihad gunmen while traveling in a car.
11/27/06 Pakistan Makeen 1 0 A moderate cleric is assassinated by Taliban supporters, who pin a note to the body.
11/26/06 Thailand Yala 2 0 Islamic militants approach two police officers at a food market and shoot them at point-blank range.
11/26/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 A 46-year-old Buddhist man is shot off the back of a motorcycle while riding with his wife.
11/26/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 24-year-old villager is shot to death by Islamic terrorists.
11/26/06 Thailand Pattani 1 1 A Buddhist rubber-tapper is murdered by radical Muslims.
11/25/06 Thailand Yala 1 2 Muslims fire into a Buddhist-owned store, killing the owner and injuring two others.
11/25/06 Thailand Yala 3 0 Three Buddhist pig hunters are shot and hacked to death by Muslim radicals.
11/24/06 Pakistan Sharif Chachar 1 0 A 15-year-old girl is hacked to death with an axe in an honour killing by her father, who suspected her of illicit relations.
11/24/06 Thailand Narithiwat 1 0 Islamists break into a man's home and kill him.
11/24/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A school administrator is shot and then burned to deat

Re:Almost

[Jim_Callahan]

Since I have, since turning 18, had a 100% rate of maximum security procedure being enacted (Pulled aside for the extra search, bag search, occasionally detained briefly for questioning), and my race is white on a level several shades lighter than your average skinhead, I'm going to venture that it has more to do with age and sex than what country it looks like you're from.

(That's 100% of about 30, 40 flights, so there's still the outside chance that I really did pull 'random search' from the hat every time, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it seems it wasn't actually random.)

Re:they probably do this for domestic travels as w

[patches]

Not saying you are wrong, as I don't know you and cannot possably tell you your wrong, but I travel for work all the time. This year alone, I have only spent about 4 weeks at home. I was traveling once about 4 months after 9/11. I went to Omaha NE, and did some work, and while I was there, I accidentily left my ID in the rental car. So I went through the extra security for not having an ID.

After that I haven't had any extra security except for flights that come up suddenly and get booked a day or two before the flight.

Patches

Watching Meals? Doubtful, just more fear mongering

[sigtau681]

Although I didn't RTFA, I doubt highly that they are work meal selection into their Risk Profile, and caulk it up as more misinformation and wild speculation. The large majority of people ordering meals preflight (which is the only way it would be keyed into a database) is for children. 99.9% of the remaining passengers get a huge selection of dinner choices that usually include: the chicken one, the beef one, or vegetarian. Come to think of it (I'm sure I will be corrected), I haven't ever seen pork as an inflight meal option. BTW, "How to blend in with your enemy: Eating a Ham Sandwich with a Smile on Your Face", is probably a lesson in Terrorist 101.

Re:they probably do this for domestic travels as w

[lixee]

I'm certain some good jokes will follow this, but at least learn from my mistake.

Funny how you turned the situation as if it were your fault. The problem is the infamous "patriot act" and the solution is to do whatever's possible to reclaim your rights.

Execution

[Potor]

That may well apply to the law-abiding people foolish enough to visit fortress USA, but FTA:

Based on all the information available to them, federal agents turn back about 45 foreign criminals a day at U.S. borders...

If I were American, I think I would sleep better at night knowing that the border guards just shot them dead.

Last year I, as a Canadian, flew a one week round-trip from SE Asia to Chicago with a passport issued in Europe. After the treatment I received in O'Hare, I wish never to return to America. And I am as white and middle class as can be. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a profiled minority. And it also pissed me off that I had to show my passport to buy a drink (I'm 38). What has America become? That's not rhetorical.

Re:Execution

[Bobzibub]

Living here is kinda like being "The Prisoner". They have lots of colourful marching bands. Saw some kids practicing with mock rifles last summer, as most kids back home would practice with batons. People are being watched because the US government thinks that if they know enough about you there is some causation with future action....Even I've been fingerprinted four or five times but have never been involved in anything more than a speeding ticket. Today my US friend just bought an AK47 for $500.

This place is freak'n surreal.

Re:Execution

[ccmay]

After the treatment I received in O'Hare, I wish never to return to America. And I am as white and middle class as can be. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a profiled minority.

It is precisely because the TSA is bending over backwards NOT to profile that you ran into such difficulty. If they were doing an efficient job of profiling, you would have sailed through in a few moments, and there would be essentially nobody from Muslim countries allowed to set foot here.

America has made the decision that she is going to beef up her border security, which is good common sense and her sovereign right, but she has done so in the most color-blind way conceivable. You'd think the supercilious liberals of Canada and Europe would applaud this, instead of trying to have it both ways and bitching when they have to stand in line with Abdul.

-ccm

Re:Execution

[cluckshot]

Amen or whatever phrase you want brother! I want to end this stupidity and I am an American.

Oh on that carding (passport) for a drink. That is just one more in a long line of stupidity going on in the name of not seeing or making any judgments based on observation. It constitutes a form of resistance to a law by over enforcement of its provisions.

Please do on Alcohol be a slight bit charitable to Americans. There are other issues going on domestically that you from Europe would not know about and surely it might seem a bit strange. Due to the Racial makeup of the USA, we tend to have some more serious problems with Alcohol than do the North European Countries. It makes for some curious solutions that surely would seem strange to you. There are a very large number of people in the USA who genetically have a much lower ability to handle or metabolize alcohol than in Northern Europe. In many of these people it takes less than 1/4th the dose to have the same effect. It makes us handle alcohol differently even from US State to State. Also our history of Alcohol consumption has seen a considerable problem set that is different from the European set.

Re:Execution

[Anonymous Coward]

(Score: +5, most insightful post on the topic ever)

Re:Execution

[RockDoctor]

After the treatment I received in O'Hare, I wish never to return to America. And I am as white and middle class as can be. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a profiled minority.

It is precisely because the TSA is bending over backwards NOT to profile that you ran into such difficulty. If they were doing an efficient job of profiling, you would have sailed through in a few moments, and there would be essentially nobody from Muslim countries allowed to set foot here.

So, for example, my white-middle-class university co-graduate (and his Venuzuelan wife) would have problems getting into America because they live in Saudi Arabia?
Riiight. How to give the impression of a confident superpower and dispel rumours of being a paranoid, close-bordered police state.

Re:Execution

[Alain Williams]

there would be essentially nobody from Muslim countries allowed to set foot here

What a damn stupid comment. You have got it into your head that Muslim == terrorist; utterly wrong. On that basis we might assume US Citizen == terrorist since the US government has been behind more terrorist and illegal international actions than any other over the last 50 years.

Re:Execution

[ccmay]

So, for example, my white-middle-class university co-graduate (and his Venuzuelan wife) would have problems getting into America because they live in Saudi Arabia?

No; in fact, as gainfully employed non-Muslims they would be ushered in promptly under any system of "profiling" worthy of the name. That's why I said "essentially all" and not "all."

Riiight. How to give the impression of a confident superpower and dispel rumours of being a paranoid, close-bordered police state.

If I were in charge, we'd be profiling for sanctimonious left-wing Euro-trash whose perception of America is based on little more than their exposure to Hollywood movies, the Guardian opinion page, and articles on IndyMedia.

-ccm

Re:Execution

[ccmay]

What a damn stupid comment. You have got it into your head that Muslim == terrorist; utterly wrong.

Number one, I was not necessarily advocating profiling. I was only pointing out the correct definition of the term to the grandparent poster, whose grasp of the concept is obviously shaky, but who nonetheless thinks it firm enough to use as a cudgel with which to bash America.

Number two, profiling is a game of percentages and probabilities, not an exact science. It is not portrayed as a means to catch every terrorist, nor is it capable of doing so. Profiling means distributing limited resources in the (theoretically) most efficient manner, so that there is the highest mathematical likelihood of catching a terrorist.

I don't know (and neither do you) what the percentage of would-be terrorists from among any given country's citizens would be. But I do know that the number is significantly greater, most probably by many orders of magnitude, among young bearded men of Yemeni origin than among widows from Switzerland. Among some groups, the likelihood of terrorist involvement may be so high that a sovereign nation may reasonably decide that it is not worth the risk of admitting even a single one of them.

If there is only one in a million citizens of a given origin that comes to another country with the means, motive, and opportunity to commit mass terrorist atrocities, then efforts to catch that one at the border are likely futile. However, if that number is one in ten, or one in a hundred, or perhaps even one in ten thousand, then an advocate of profiling would very much be in favor of singling them out for special scrutiny before the privilege of entering the country is granted.

Each nation, and each individual, must decide where to draw this line. All nations do, or otherwise there would be no such thing as passports and visas. You may be a die-hard leftist with a dewy-eyed perception of absolute racial and religious equality, so much so that you might even refuse to countenance profiling or visa restrictions if there were only one in a million visitors from another country who were NOT likely terrorists. Good for you, pat yourself on the back for your adherence to principle. But I assure you that your fellow voters, and hence your government, would draw the line at some level of potential terroristic inclination or intention.

Since the line exists in all nations, the matter of where that line should be drawn is something over which reasonable people ought to be able to debate without shrill accusations of racism or religious bigotry. I myself would draw the line more stringently than now. Of course I realize that not all Muslims are terrorists, but the percentage who are is high enough to earn them special scrutiny.

I fear the time is coming when the sons of post-Christian Europe will beg on their knees for some "profiling" that would allow them to immigrate to the wicked terrorist nation of America and leave the Muslims of Eurabia out in the cold. Not in my lifetime, perhaps, but certainly in my son's. It will not be because all European Muslims are terrorists, or even a majority, but because enough of them are that everyone else is too frightened and weak to resist the imposition of Sharia law. To the extent that liberal democracy, the rights of women and homosexuals, and the very edifice of Western civilization survive the next hundred years, it will do so upon the soil of North America and Australia, and not in Europe.

-ccm

Re:Execution

[cold fjord]

I can't imagine what it would be like to be a profiled minority.

It isn't really legal to profile minorities in the US, all travelers can get "the full treatment". O'Hare has long been a busy place with a bit of a reputation; I doubt that increased security has made it any friendlier.

And it also pissed me off that I had to show my passport to buy a drink (I'm 38).

It's called political correctness - it's not discrimination if we ask everybody, is it?

Re:Execution

[RockDoctor]

If I were in charge, we'd be profiling for sanctimonious left-wing Euro-trash whose perception of America is based on little more than their exposure to Hollywood movies, the Guardian opinion page, and articles on IndyMedia.

As well as having visited the country, had numerous American friends, colleagues and cow-orkers (note - the classes do not overlap ; specifically, cow-orkers are not necessarily friends) in many countries around the world, and multitudinous casual contacts with the more educated, well-travelled parts of the American population. Oh, and I give Hollywood and comparable credence to the #1 movie-production centre of the world (Bollywood) - zilch.
What makes you think that one would be wanting to visit America again? If the boss paid me, I'd go there. Same for Uzbekistan and anywhere south of Hungary but north of Patagonia. I can read the weather forecast as well as anyone else. I've no further friends planning to marry in the States (which was my last reason for travelling there).

Yet another sign

[Anonymous Coward]

yup this is just another sign that the USA has become a police state. When will its populous realize that it isn't fear and control that will keep them "safe" its acceptance and freedom that will free us all.

Re:they probably do this for domestic travels as w

[dgatwood]

I'm in California, too. It looks like you can only do two four-year extensions in a row by mail, which sort of sucks, but I guess they don't want the photo to get too stale. The point is that for most of your renewals, it's pretty close to automatic. They send you a letter, you send them back $20, and you get the license in the mail.

Re:So if you're flagged ... forget rail passage,

[LunaticTippy]

You can't even rent a car and travel anonymously anymore. Many rentals are quietly equipped with GPS loggers. Nevermind if you have a cellphone!

Is it time yet?

[MrDoh1]

Too bad that it's a pretty good bet that there is no large, habitable undiscovered land mass somewhere on the planet... I'm getting the feeling it's about time to abandon this one and try again.

Re:Everyone knows that the Islamists hate the Jews

[Anonymous Coward]

Halal, bologna (or, if you prefer, baloney), sandwich, stale. Also, "terrorists" is plural, not singular, so "a" is an inappropriate article. Furthermore, you are making inconsistent use of capital letters, this makes you look stupid (or, at best, careless).

I'm pretty sure GP was just making a joke, but even if he/she was serious, it would simply make him uninformed, not a "tard" or stupid. You, however, are clearly an imbecile. Only a true moron takes others to task for stupidity while displaying their own idiocy for all the world to see.

P.S. You'd want to kill people over not understanding the differences between Halal (which you can't even spell) and Kosher? Man, you're a grade-A asshole... and an American. Hmmm... Good thing I know all Americans are not as big assholes as you, or I'd want to respond to all of them on Slashdot.

And I'm a slashdotter.

Just what was "propaganda"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Got the balls to actually read and comment on this list:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2005.htm

Well, do you? Will you go there, and actually read that list? There are 1531 events on that list, all of them violence perpetrated by Muslims, and most of them are terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. That's just one year, one year that saw over one-thousand five hundred acts of violence in the name of Islam. Hell, poke all the holes in those examples you want. Research them all. You might learn something, and it might actually cause you to think about your opinions and base them on facts.

Did you know about all of those? I'd bet they happened outside of your attention span. 1,500+ acts of violence committed in the name of Islam in the year 2005 - just one damn year - and you didn't even notice. And you have the chutzpah to talk about "attention span"?

I note you failed to comment on London, Madrid, and Bali. Why did you ignore those? No balls?

And why do your examples include ones from 1927 - a few months from seventy years ago - and 1955? Why do you have to go back the better part of a century to pull examples?

I'll take your five examples of not only non-Islamic but also non-religious violence spanning the last 70 years against my 1500+ examples of Islamic violence from a single year, the ones that must have slipped past your attention for you to make such facile claims.

Calling that list of 1500+ Islamic-inspired violent acts "propaganda" doesn't change it in any way. Please tell us what is "hateful" about that list.

Whether you like it or not, there's only one major world religion that preaches that killing non-believing "infidels" is a way to enter Paradise, and also has a long history of treating "infidels" as sub-human and actually deserving of death because their continued existence is an "insult to Allah". Go look up the term jizya. I dare you. Go read the verses in the Quran calling for "smiting your enemy in the neck", and put that in the context of all the hostage beheadings we're subject to. I dare you to do that, too.

I dare you to research Islamic theology. I really do. Especially the era where Islam rejects rationality.

Calling that list of Islamic violence "hateful propaganda" doesn't change it one bit. It just shows you're a sheltered and pampered twit pining for some lame idea of "tolerance":

So, can we PLEASE drop the racial/religious profiling, and just focus on the individuals involved, instead of blindly regurgitating hateful propoganda? Thanks.

Yep. 1,500+ deadly violent events in 2005, in the name of Islam. Open claims from Islamic heads of state that they will "wipe Israel off the map" and in the process kill millions. And you call it "hateful propaganda" when the Islamic propensity for medieval violence in the name of religion is pointed out.

And you desire "peace in our time."

Re:Just what was "propaganda"?

[WIAKywbfatw]

I haven't commented on Slashdot for a while, but your post is full of enough short-sightedness for me to have to do so here.

1. The grandparent posters examples might have stretched back a while, but you're focusing on the wrong thing. His examples illustrate that terrorism and ends-justify-the-means violence is nothing new, and that people of more than one faith are capable of doing it.

Furthermore, in a historical context, they illustrate that the current paranoia displayed to the overwhelming majority of peaceful Muslims because of a the actions of a tiny fraction of people of that faith is an inappropriate overreaction. The actions of a few don't dictate the beliefs and intentions of the many, so don't fall into the trap of making that mistake.

2. You quote a website that clearly has an agenda, and that agenda is colouring Islam as a religion that is based on hate and which is driven by the need to murder others. Even if their stats are 100 percent accurate, do you have similar figures for other religions? Can you honestly claim that, say, Christians, Jews, Bhuddists or people of any other faith are less destructive and can you back it up with any data?

Yes, some misguided Muslims have killed others in the name of their religion, but so have others of other faiths. Yes, some extracts of the Koran can be interpreted violently, but so can some extracts of the Bible, the Torah, etc. If you're going to sweepingly condemn people for the actions of their brethren, or for the words written in their holy texts, then I think you're going to condemn almost everybody on the planet.

Certainly, it makes me glad to be agnostic when I see people colouring things the way that you do here. I don't know if there is a God, so I don't have a side, and I certainly don't have an agenda. As someone who's walked past IRA bombs minutes before they've exploded and whose girlfriend was on a London Underground train while some were being blown up last year I'm in no doubt that you don't have to be of a certain religion, creed, colour or cause to want to kill someone.

There is one thing that I don't doubt though: it's that people who only see one worldview and who demonise those that have differing worldviews are part of the problem, not part of the solution. And in case it passes over your head, that applies to you just as much as it applies to the Al Qaedas and IRAs of this world.

Re:Just what was "propaganda"?

[mojodamm]

I agree with you that the perpetrators of each and every one of the acts on your referenced site's list should be held responsible. But I also think that for every person wrongfully killed in the name of Allah, at least an equal amount has been killed in the name of other religions. The Crusades and the Inquisition spring immediately to mind. And even though Pope John Paul II apologized for that, do you honestly think a formal apology from Muslim leaders be treated the same, and give everyone a 'clean slate' to continue further atrocities, only on a smaller scale, as it has with other mainstream religions? There is no doubt that various atrocities have been, and likely will continue to be, committed in the name of religion. But to brushstroke a large population of individuals because of religious fanatics is short-sighted, and yes, propagandist.

The problem with lists on sites such as the one you vehemently advertise for (which I did peruse, by the way; seemed a rather financially motivated site, what with click-through book sales and donation links), is that it fosters a state of 'us' vs. 'them', and that's exactly where the religious leader of these religions are trying to sheperd their flocks toward. They're all grasping for power, and spreading their respective 'word' in whichever ways gains them the most influence.

I personally don't have any more or less tolerance for Islam than I do for Western organized religions when their adherents act like asshats, but as long as we have people preaching one against the other, I'm happy to try to show them that the problems are not confined to any one religion, or its followers.

Re:Just what was "propaganda"?

[Hognoxious]

The Crusades and the Inquisition spring immediately to mind. And even though Pope John Paul II apologized for that, do you honestly think a formal apology from Muslim leaders be treated the same, and give everyone a 'clean slate' to continue further atrocities, only on a smaller scale

Holy invalid comparison, Batman!

Note to self: collect chainmail from cleaners (tue 3 pm), order new set of thumbscrews.

Oh really, a plan?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a former developer at U.S. Customs let me assure you that this has existed for quite a long while...

Two options...

[Fuzzums]

1. Never ever set foot on that continent.
2. Everybody go to that continent and order the samen meals and flood the database.

Why? Isn't it just insane that the you have to be tracked in every step you take? Hell. I'm innocent and I don't want to be treated as a possible threat to society.

Mind you. Here in Europe things arn't that much better. You don't have to carry an ID, but if the police asks you for it, you have to show it. (ok. only if they suspect you did something illegal).

Good!

[DimGeo]

Finally, less random checks means less missed flights. I prefer they do my background check the moment I pay for the ticket with my CC, instead of when I'm trying to catch my next plane to Bulgaria for the holydays.

Terror Attacks=Nothing. Compare to domestic crime.

[the_REAL_sam]

Well, let's see. There have been over 16,000 murders per year inside the U.S. for the last 5 years. That means Americans have been killing 5x more Americans per year than foreign Muslims allegedly killed in 911. Americans killing other Americans never warranted a war on Americans. We managed to SUSTAIN OUR CONSTITUTION in spite of the fact that the crime rates were taking ~16,000 lives per year, AND that the deaths came from "our own people."

The bottom line of 9-11: 3030 terror deaths. The impact of that attack was distorted, or else they'd never have accomplished the whole "Heil Bush, Protect the Fatherland" thing.

If enough people get that 3,030 vs 16,000 into perspective, we can derail the police state's momentum.

According to the CIA world factbook, 78% of Americans characterize themselves as Christian of some sort or another (catholic, protestant, mormon)... perhaps more, since 10% are categorized as "other".

Jesus taught we should always forgive, love our enemies, and never retaliate for any thing, or any reason. Turn the other cheek. Those who live by the sword die by the sword, etc, etc. Christ's "war" was a spiritual war. Taking up violence or hostility for ANY reason IS LOSING A BATTLE in Christ's war. The battle is WON with prayer and righteousness in all cases. When a dead suicide bomber reaches heaven's gate, he's greeted as a terrorist. Do you think there are any terrorists in heaven? Or any megalomaniacal pseudopresidents with hundreds of thousands fighting in an unjust war for oil, while training to subdue an unwilling native population? Perhaps there are... in radical-militant heaven...perhaps in Bush heaven... but not in the Heaven I plan to go to.

War is against the very bedrock of Christianity.

From the CIA World Factbook: U.S. "Government type: Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition". Straight from the CIA world factbook. It looks like the administration should read up on the facts. Well, gee... wasn't Bush's own father head of the CIA for a while? Perhaps he could convey to president Bush the importance of maintaining _Traditional_ _American_ _Values_.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/prin t/us.html
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Flying these days can be real fun...

[dfm3]

...if you're the family member of an airline employee. Sure, flying at a discount (it's not free these days) can be an advantage, but dealing with security can actually be more difficult than it usually is for other passengers. Never mind that your parent/spouse/child is the one in the cockpit, you're more likely to be flagged as suspicious under this system for several reasons:

- "Non Rev" travel arrangements are usually made at the last minute, since you're at the bottom of the standby list and need to make travel plans around flight loads. It's not uncommon to make changes to an itinerary or to wait to book a flight until the day before, in order to maximize your chances of avoiding an oversold flight.

- Although you may be making a round trip journey, the way the system works, you are considered to be traveling on a one way ticket- twice.

- It's very common to be seated in exit rows or the very rear of the aircraft, since these seats are typically less popular and are usually the only ones open on a mostly full flight. Remember that during 9/11, the attackers chose seats on exit rows and at the very front and rear of the aircraft, so it would make sense that people who routinely sat in these seats would be flagged as more suspicious.

A few years ago, when the TSA was young and still trying to work the kinks out of the system, these and other factors (particularly the one-way-ticket thing) led to an unusually high number of airline employees and their family members being "selected" for additional screening on domestic flights. Thankfully it didn't take them long to fix the mistake, but in the meantime it was frustrating to travel and know that a good 80% of the time (from my personal experience), you'd see those dreaded S's on your boarding pass and knew that you'd be getting special service at the security line. I've traveled internationally several times since 9/11, and after learning about the ATS I'm surprised that I've only been pulled aside for questioning at Customs once. It wasn't as much of an ordeal more than an inconvenience (it delayed me for about 25 minutes), but it's not exactly fun trying to convince a customs agent that you were just spending your fall break hiking in a National Park in Canada when their computer indicates you may be a security threat (just speculation there, of course, since they wouldn't actually tell you if you were flagged by the system, but I wouldn't doubt that it was the case).

Ever hear of Maher Arar?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look up the case of Maher Arar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar - it happens already.

For those to lazy to RTFA, Canadian police put him on a watch list as a guy they were suspicious of whose brother Arar worked with co-signed his lease. Then, passing through the U.S., he was hauled out and shipped off to Syria to be tortured.

The only reason we know the full story is his wife is an amazing person and managed to turn it into a national political issue to get him back. Then we had an inquiry as to WTF was he doing over there anyways.

Now he has an apology though. Hooray.

Also our cops are supposed to restrict what they tell the Committee for Homeland Security now because we can't trust the U.S. government (doesn't that make you feel safer?)

Extra screening beats the lines...sometimes

[aethera]

On a recent trip to Denver my flight was canceled. (actually, we sat on the tarmac in Lexington for 2 hours while they tried to find a mechanic. Then they cancelled the flight. Of course our checked bags took rode on a later flight for which there were no seats. We turned in our boarding passes at the gate and they issued us tickets for the first flight out in the am. Of course I would miss the first morning of meetings I was supposed to attend, but my presentation wasn't until the afternoon. I arrive at the airport at 5am the next day to find out the flight is cancelled (again). They wanted me to wait four hours for the next flight, but the look I gave the gate agent must have changed their minds, instead they put me in a cab for the two hour drive to Cinncinnati, where I of course was flagged for extra security screenings because I: was traveling without baggage? had changed my flight plans at the last minute? didn't have my original boarding pass? This was only adding to my displeasure until I got to the security screening. I immediately get diverted to the full strip search line, where there are two people ahead of me in line. The other lines all have dozens in wait. So even though my screening took at least twice as long, I still made it through about five minutes ahead of the people who arrived at the check point the same time as me. Same story on my return trip. Giant lines for the standard screening in Denver, but the SSSS on my boarding pass might have said VIP, the trick was being relaxed, laughing it off and carrying absolutely no metal, and no carry-ons but ticket, id, cash, phone and a good thick book. Oh, by the way, the return flight had a connection in Cinncinnati again. The puddle jumper we were supposed to get on there also had mechanical problems. We sat in the terminal for three hours and even had all of our bags unloaded from the plane and loaded onto a coach bus for the ride before they cleared us for takeoff, unloaded and reloaded our bags and finally let us board.

Re:they probably do this for domestic travels as w

[bergeron76]

Poo in a triple sealed baggie and place it in your carry on luggage. Kindly, repeatedly ask for privacy and that is sensitive and you can't talk about it. Then, when they open it - SHIT!

Then you either:
a) tell them they shouldn't be searching your bag without cause
b) you were going to kill the other passengers with it
c) laugh

I'm not sure if it's illegal to transfer your own poo on a flight (it may be considered biohazardous waste though). If you know they'll search you each time, have some fun with it mate. Just make sure you check in early. ;)

You're sticking your head in the sand

[Anonymous Coward]

1. It's not a "small fraction" of Muslims who are what you termed "misguided". It is a significant fraction - significant enough to rule entire countries - Iran for certain, with major, major influences in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and probably quite a few others. Just listen to the word of the Iranian ayatollahs and government, Saudi state-sponsored imams, Hamas (who rules Palestine), and Hezbollah (effectively the rulers of Lebanon).

2. Yes, it's obvious that http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ has an agenda. No doubt about it. But even if you discount all the singular slayings as criminal acts that don't belong, and toss out everything that's in Iraq and Afghanistan, you're left with literally hundreds of acts like bombings, honor killings, and Islamic-inspired slayings of Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus. No one has numbers like that for any other religion for the simple reason no other major religion today literally has any significant numbers of followers who are exhorted to kill for their religion. The only one that does that is Islam - where entire countries are urged to kill infidels. Go to another fact-filled but agenda-driven site to read about it: http://www.memri.org./ IIRC that site is run by ex-Mossad or Shin Bet. But there's nothing there but documented facts - and that's scary.

3. Others have brought up the Inquisition and the Crusades as evidence of Christian moral equivalence to Islam. Please note that those both predate the Enlightenment and the Reformation. Islam abandoned rationality 800 years ago. I believe the relevant word is itjihad. Why is it that even today Islamic leadership almost unanimously calls for the imposition of sharia, even in places like Canada?

4. If you don't think Islam is different from other religions, tell me any other religion extant today that has the equivalents of Salman Rushdie and Theo van Gogh. Go and research jizya. I was going to crack a joke about Scientology here, but the more I think about it, the more accurate that comparison might be - Islam is Scientology with a billion followers, several countries under control, lots of money, and soon nuclear weapons. And with an infallible L. Ron Hubbard as Mohammed, preaching "kill the infidels" instead of "give me money". Don't think so? Something like 15% or so of British Muslims openly admit to supporting the London bombings. Now, put that into the context of the Islamic concept of taqiyya.

Don't believe me? Read what Iranian President Ahmadinejad says. It's right out of the Quran. Listen to Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah. Those guys are saying they're going to kill infidels, and they're actually going about the process of either actively doing that or openly collecting the weapons that could do so.

This is a scary time - and a Dark Age is looming if we don't stand up for classical Western values against a religion who murders those who demand equal rights for women, a religion that condones the stoning of gays and lesbians, a religion that misogynistically promises 72 virgins to those that die while trying to kill infidels, and a religion that makes the most strident Bible-thumping Creationist look like an absolute scientific Einstein.

Just look what's happening in France. And the Netherlands.

Explain how all that's "shortsighted". I see a threat to Western values like human rights and the equality of all men and especially women being threatened by an evil, elemental force that has way too much potential to make Hitler look like a passing windstorm.

Hey!

[Roger W Moore]

In case you haven't noticed more than 50% of "that continent" is Canada!

Your Comparison is Absurd

[SRA8]

>>There is a Halal food-stand next to where I work, and they are quite popular during lunch hour -- their lamb is delicious. You think, every one of their customers is marked as a potential terrorist? Photographed and video-taped from "black helicopters" above?.. Ummm...no. Monitoring a halal stand in midtown manhattan is not the way to do that as plenty of nonMuslims eat there. You must be smart enough to realize this. No, best way is to go by surnames and meal preferences. Why? Because it is much more specific. Non-muslims rarely choose Halal meal options. These restrictions are not meant to catch terrorists, they are meant to shame Muslims and Arabs in America and make their life so difficult that they consider moving away. Much like the yellow star Jews were forced to wear in Nazi Germany. Except now its a boolean flag. For example, I have to stand on a paper ticket like because I am on a selectee list EVERY SINGLE DAMN TIME. No white person on my consulting assignment needs to do that. No, no black helicopters, just a boolean field switched on your profile to make life incredibly challenging whenever travelling.

MOD PARENT UP

[Siener]

I wish I had some mod points

LOL

[Fuzzums]

My apologies to Canada.

Not head in the sand: seeing the truth

[Anonymous Coward]

1. ONE person committing terrorist acts si a significant fraction.
2. Didn't answer the point: saying "those are bad people so keep tabs on THEM" is not good if you aren't cataloguing ALL bad people and that means every group.
3. Witch burning in Salem. Anti-abortionists. God-fearin' christians killing blacks (KKK). Look at the bible-belt TV. Look at Israel's actions. Look at the Indian problems. Protestant/Catholic problems in Ireland...
4. Well we don't hear about them, do we? Because we are generally christian. Go to India and listen to the news there: attacks you never hear about because your news stations don't put out ALL the news.

Read the sceptics' annotated bible. Not a pretty read. The koran, as written, is actually quite a level-headed document.

When you watch a magician, a lot of the tricks involved are based on getting you to look where he wants you to look so that the trick can be done without you seeing. Proclaiming only Islam is a problem blinds you to the other nutjobs and they will blindside you. Then probably convince you that Islam is the problem which you want to believe because that means you and people like you aren't the problem, IT IS SOMEONE ELSE.

Wait a minute Batman

[jotaeleemeese]

Are you saying that if the terrorists can't get into the planes they will try to smuggle explosives by other means, bypassing this way the useles profiling?

Holly veils Batman!

What is your point?

[jotaeleemeese]

Israelis were classed as terrorists while trying to stablish the state of Israel.

The ANC was classed as a terrorist organization. Nelson Mandela their figurehead.

Hutus kille Tutsis by the hundreds of thousedns (if you don't define genocide as a form of terrorism, all the power to yu). Both groups are mostly Christian. Some of these people have been livin happily abroad.

Profiling does not work. Evil is everywhere.

If you go into your rockers profiling for one type of person you will keeps your eyes from other *real* threats.

Profileing is an admission of failure in regards to intelligence gathering.

How dare we!

[jotaeleemeese]

We people in democracies, how dare we to:

-Question the actions of our elected representatives.

-Question how people that were known to have sympathies with groups that have attacked the US elsewhere, boarded those planes, in groups of 3 or 4 nonetheles!!!

-Question the wisdom of letting a computer (programmed by people) to make decisions like if it was all knowing.

-Demand to know why we may be refused the freedom of movement we are entitled to.

-Demand to know the rules by which we may be even incarcerated (and may I remind you, sent to Guantanamo or worst, with no recourse, withouth knowing the charges, without any means to defend yourself).

You are justifying your government build of a police state, bit bit bit, peacemeal approach.

But we will be safe.

North Korean safe, everybody that has been there agrees that crime rates are very low and terrorist attacks are unheard off.

All this bullshit people in democracies are allowing will come back to bite them in ways they can't think of right now.

That is what happens when you forget about sound democratic principles and demand to be safe....

Trust people without democratic standards?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, I love East European people, specially the stunning women from those places, but if you get to know them a bit, some of them have the most horrible view of the world because they know no better.

There are few things more dishartening than to fuck a blonde Estonian stunner just to listen to all the racist nonsense she had to say after the act about blacks or arabs. You may not believe it, but that killed my libido for this bird ....

This is not the only example I know off (just the one I can baost about), I work daily with people from Eastern EUrope (outsourcing, clients, providers, colleagues, etc) and very often I am shocked by how supportive they really are of repressive practices of the state.

They do love to live in democracies, but have no concept of how a democracy works. They are often unashamedely racist, and all the propaganda they learned in soviet times is not easily forgotten.

They are not the best placed people to tell us how a democracy shoul be, but certainly they have a great insight in how a dictatorship works.

Personal survelliance is a landmark characteristic of a dictatorship, and we are sleepwalking into it with many folks singing its praises....

I have stopped flying to the US.

[jotaeleemeese]

I have been several times there, and was badly treated in immigration as a Mexican a couple of times ( the way Chinese travellers were treated has no name honestly).

I don't expect to visit you guys until you get rid aff all this nonsense frankly.

Even in Vietnam I was welcomed and treated with respect by the immigration officers, and at no point I was fingerprinted or anything of the sort.

You guys, who mostly have travelled little, have no idea how authoritarian all these measures look from the outside.

Re:Execution Muslim Profiling

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all muslims are terrorists, but all the terrorists that took down the World trade Centers were muslim. So why are we profiling Canadians? I though Canada was the USA's 51st State, otherwise the USA was Canada's 10th Territory. http://www.buzzoffbozo.com/

If you see truth, why didn't you refute anything?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. ONE person committing terrorist acts si a significant fraction.

Mere characterization based on your opinion. That statement conveys no information.

2. Didn't answer the point: saying "those are bad people so keep tabs on THEM" is not good if you aren't cataloguing ALL bad people and that means every group.

Wrong. Just because everyone can't be stopped, that does not mean it's a bad idea to put a group that openly proclaims that it's committed to violence under closer watch. A group that openly supports terrorism and violence deserves closer attention.

Don't like it? Well, I invite you to move to Planet Earth.

3. Witch burning in Salem. Anti-abortionists. God-fearin' christians killing blacks (KKK). Look at the bible-belt TV. Look at Israel's actions. Look at the Indian problems. Protestant/Catholic problems in Ireland...

Q - Which one of those is backed by an entire religion, promising 72 virgins to those who kill infidels?

A - None of them.

You refuse to see that. Why are you so bent on making everyone and every religion morally equivalent to the point of ignoring evidence? That's the real question: why do your beliefs require you to ignore evidence?

Count those Islam-inspired acts in 2005 - 1500+. Count the number since August - 419, ignoring any and all in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You've utterly ignored all that while pulling crap like the Salem Witch Trials from hundreds of years ago to bash Christianity. I don't have to go back hundreds of years to find thousands of acts of violence committed in the name of Islam - just two.

4. Well we don't hear about them, do we? Because we are generally christian. Go to India and listen to the news there: attacks you never hear about because your news stations don't put out ALL the news.

Go and read that list from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com./ You do have the ability to do that, don't you? If you really think that there are an equivalent number of non-Islamic violent acts, why don't you find them? Why hasn't anyone found them?

Remember, you have to find 1500+ attacks in 2005. You have to find over a hundred a month.

Please, go find them. Try. Please do.

Because when you don't find one hundred non-Islamic acts of terrorism a month, you'll learn something, something that just might make you question the "everyone's the same" pap you've been fed.

Read the sceptics' annotated bible. Not a pretty read. The koran, as written, is actually quite a level-headed document.

Of course, that totally ignores the hadiths, now doesn't it?

It also totally ignores the fact that in Islamic theology, later writings completely override any earlier writings. Note that what you term the "level-headed" part of the Quran is the earlier writings.

That's the opposite of Christianity.

When you watch a magician, a lot of the tricks involved are based on getting you to look where he wants you to look so that the trick can be done without you seeing. Proclaiming only Islam is a problem blinds you to the other nutjobs and they will blindside you. Then probably convince you that Islam is the problem which you want to believe because that means you and people like you aren't the problem, IT IS SOMEONE ELSE.

Nice, content-less pap. Proclaiming there are other problems in the world does not make Islam a non-problem. But I bet you don't even see the logical disconnect there, do you?

Ask Theo van Gogh if Islamic interpretation of the Quran is "level headed". Oh, wait, you can't - your "level headed" Muslims killed him. Just like they did to Salman Rushdie's translator. See the big stink in Pakistan demanding a return to medieval rape laws that effectively give a free pass to rape. See how

the meals they ordered in-flight.

[smchris]

Not that it's racial profiling or anything.

I've been enjoying the 2-for-1 coupons a local grocery chain has frequently been offering over the last couple years on that there A-rab hummus but it can't be a picnic for U.S. producers trying to weather the xenophobia.

Hitler?

[Anonymous Coward]

How is it that Hitler does not get characterized as a Christian Terrorist? After all, one of the reasons he engaged in the genocide used the purity of religion excuse.

How Long Before It's Applied Everywhere?

[Master of Transhuman]

In other words, how long before the Feds require each state to maintain the same database - or require access to the Federal database - before you can get a driver's license or pretty much do anything else?

Next, cops will be running your license plate - or just your face on the street - and stopping you for warrantless searches based on criteria you know nothing about?

Sure, cops can do all that stuff NOW. The difference is they do it based on either their own stupidity, or because they have a "quota" of "stops" to make or because they actually see some reason to suspect YOU. Now they will do it because "somebody" "somewhere" put "something" about you in a database you can't see or challenge.

This goes WAY past "show me your papers".

Face it, folks, you're living in Nazi Germany now, with "The Decider" calling the shots as a result of a "Reichstag Fire" incident and "the invasion of Poland".

And the suckers here will continue to say it's all good.

Actually, depending on where you go...

[patio11]

... we'd let the kids practice with real rifles. Post-Columbine world blah blah blah most schools got rid of their shooting clubs, but sport shooting is a common hobby in many of the non-urban areas of America, and under parental supervision you could easily pick up your Boy Scouts marksmanship merit badge much earlier than the age of majority. In some states rifles/shotguns could be owned legitimately by an eight-year old. This is in much the same manner that an eight-year old could own a kitchen knife, which is about as dangerous, statistically speaking (handguns are typically more regulated than long guns). Things are, obviously, a bit more complicated if you're trying to buy an AK-47 as a convicted felon. (Actually, they're not -- you go get one illegally, from someone who stole one or bought it illegally themselves.)

No way out...

[milette]

The interesting part about all blatent and obvious abuses of power the government commits is that there seems to be absolutely nothing being done to STOP it. What COULD you do?

Ya, you got 'rights', ya, you got a 'constitution' but SO WHAT? Seems nothing more than words on paper.

The government can monitor your phone calls (without a warrant), merge every record that mentions your name from any source anywhere on the planet, and now give you some 'special attention' because of your name or the type of car you drive or where you buy your airline tickets.

Right now, you also have people imprisoned with no charges or trial for YEARS, secret 'rendition' camps where torture and human abuse are nothing more than a good day's work. (Of course, you have to take care of all them terrorists hiding behind every bush -- don't you?)

That's right citizen, have no fear. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.

Even if the wake-up call comes -- what you going to do? Individuals heading in different directions won't make a fart worth of difference. Gonna start holding public protests? That may not be such a good idea with the new 'crowd control' microwave weapons now approved for use (testing) in Iraq. Inflicts severe pain, blistering and burning in less than 3 seconds -- unbearable to 100% of victims tested in less than 6 seconds. Range -- 1.5km and works as long as you have power.

Yep -- all is well -- go about your business...

(I only WISH I was a conspiracy theorist -- reality is much more frightening.)