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RIAA Members Sue Allofmp3.com Over Infringement
fair_n_hite_451 writes "To the surprise of no one, several members of the RIAA have filed suit against MediaServices, the operators of Allofmp3.com. The suit was filed for Wednesday, primarily by Arista Records LLC, Warner Bros. Records Inc., Capitol Records Inc. and UMG Recordings. The language of the litigation was very confrontational; The companies claim the site sells millions of songs without paying them 'a dime'. 'The defendant's entire business ... amounts to nothing more than a massive infringement of plaintiffs' exclusive rights under the Copyright Act and New York law.' AllofMp3 has always maintained that a Russian licensing group makes their business legitimate, while the RIAA here claims the organization has no authority to make such a deal."
Its obvious why they haven't paid a dime:
Russians pay in Rubles and kopeks.
liqbase
Yeah. Good luck with that.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Check the organization that allofmp3.com claims has given them the right to do what they are doing. If the organization is legitimate, and has doucmented everything correctly, then the RIAA hasn't a leg to stand on.
If the organization is not legitimate or doesn't have the proper paperwork, the RIAA wins.
Instead of litigating this to death, just show the damn paperwork and prove your point.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
... because AllofMP3 does what Napster and Rhapsody and iTunes cannot: offer a comprehensive music catalog at reasonable rates. To wit: if you really like jazz, this is the only place to find nontrivial Art (or Chet!) Baker, Charlie Parker, Buddy Rich, Charles Mingus, or Dave Brubeck.
Is it illegal according to US law? Sure. Do I care? No. This is the modern equivalent of civil disobedience. Call it corporate disobedience: the ad infinitum extensions of copyright protection for works of long-dead artists, as a benefit to corporate parents, says the balance of power is most assuredly in the hands of the sociopathic corporate citizenry and not the voting public. The weapons I have against Big Business are economic, and this is just the first of many conflicts to come, all along the same lines.
Just mull it over. Corporate disobedience might be the only option now.
-BA
PLEASE DEAR GOD let this become a fight between the RIAA and the Russian Mafia.
Russian Mafia FTW!
Why is the RIAA trying to sue someone in another country. The US has no jurisdiction.
Does the site have a presence in the US? Well? If it doesn't then they can get bent. Now they can go after all the people who paid the site to download songs, but not the site in Russia.
Please America, don't try to bring your horrible legal system to the rest of the world. We don't want it.
Mean what you say...say what you mean.
You'd have thought that allofmp3.com would just hand over the dime.
"Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
AllofMP3.com pays the correct proceeds under Russian law to ROMS (Russian Organization for Multimedia and Digital Systems a.k.a. similar to the RIAA in Russia). ROMS is a non-for-profit organization that handles all copyright payment transactions in Russia, including collecting for foreign interests. All the money is held until it is requested by the appropriate parties with proof that they are the correct owners of the copyrighted material. All requests can also be retro-active requests for payment, (i.e. if you have been the owner of the work, and have not received your cut for the last 4 years, you simply request that you receive your payments for the entire time that you have been the copyright owner).
The RIAA knows this and so do their member groups. The issue is that they do not want to request the payment because they think doing so will give legitimacy to places like AllofMP3.com who are following the Russian rules to copyright payments. The RIAA does not like the Russian rules and seeks to circumvent them. By not requesting for their payments they are trying to use that as a means for the lawsuit(s) you are now witness to over the last few months against different Russian sites.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Even if they manage to shut allofmp3.com down, they'll be playing a Russian version of whack-'em-all for a while. Check out its sister site alltunes.com - you should even be able to transfer your credits from allofmp3 there.
"You mortals are so obtuse." -Q
Since when does German law apply in other countries?
Since when does French law apply in other countries?
I'm pretty sure I could come up with a few other things as well. Oh yes, in this particular case it might be since Russia started to join the WTO.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
".. while the RIAA here claims the organization has no authority to make such a deal."
Than the RIAA should go after that organization, instead of going after its customers.
"amounts to nothing more than a massive infringement of plaintiffs' exclusive rights under the Copyright Act and New York law." New York in America, or New York in Russia ?
If the former the RIAA is exhibiting nothing more like what big American organisations (including its gouverment) seem to do best : play the "the world is mine to rule" -game, and hope everyone buckles under their threats.
"I've seen it all twice before
They try to be original
Disappoint the way of the world
The truth is there is no truth
Mystified, can't compute
Well I said forget about
Everything you've heard
You won't last that long
You won't last that long
You might as well transform
You won't last, you won't last"
Am I gonna get sued now?
-jX
Don't you just love politics? It's like a comedy of errors.
I heard this on NPR this morning while I was driving to work—my first thought: "well duh". Must be a slownewsday for everyone...
Quick! Someone shoot someone!Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
It matters when US citizens are members of this service. I have one friend who is a member and even she thought it was a bit fishy... but she was paying $10 or $15/month for unlimited downloading. I assume this is how they are going after the company, because they provide their service in the United States.
And slightly off topic, our legal system does a pretty good job. The only change I would like to see done is to make plantiffs pay all court costs/legal fees if the defendant was proven to be non guilty in a civil matter. That would fix so many problems.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
I hereby stake my claim to a monopoly on the distribution of "virtual reality" entertainment, including but not limited to "holodeck simulations", direct neural links, etc.
Just because none of the entertainment companies I represent offer these forms of entertainment at a price the marker is willing to pay or in a format that the public desires does not mean I am not entitled to vast sums of money!
Middle-men of the world unite!
Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
And how does RIAA expect to enforce New York's court order (if such would be obtained) on Russian soil?
~he companies claim the site sells millions of songs without paying them 'a dime'
;)
bullshit i remember paying a dime for 10-100 songs from allfomp3
Now this is, admittedly, hearsay, and I've not gone to look for collaboration:
What I'd heard is that allofmp3 PAYS royalties, but the American firms refuse them, as they're "not enough". So when they accuse them of not paying a dime, it's because they won't accept the payments, more than anything else... Can anyone confirm/deny this?
Why is the RIAA trying to sue someone in another country. The US has no jurisdiction.
You're right, but AllOfMP3 won't show up or if they do will lose, so RIAA will win in court. With this victory, they will get the Bush administration to lean more heavily on Russia to "do something".
Please America, don't try to bring your horrible legal system to the rest of the world. We don't want it.
I'm American and I admit we are too litigious and everything here is always somebody else's fault. However, the more I pay attention, the less convinced I am that overall the American legal system is the worst. One the negative side, yes, you can sue over anything and maybe win. On the positive side, if you do something bad (ie. kill someone), you may actually pay a high price for it. Consider the following:
1) A few years ago Japan tried and convicted some US Marines for raping a schoolgirl. The ringleader got a "very long sentence" (those are the exact words of the account I read) of 7 years. In the US he could have been sentenced to life imprisonment for the crime. I'm sorry, but 7 years is not a "long time".
2) Did you know that according to the Brazilian constitution you can't be sentenced to more 30 years in jail for anything? Serial killers rejoice. In fact, Brazilian sentences are never more than 29 years because to give someone 30 involves an automatic appeal. There's no death penalty in Brazil either, although strangely enough the cops have an awful lot of leeway to shoot you and kill you prior to you getting arrested should you flee or resist.
3) Italians in particular (although the majority of the EU has the same problem) actually feel sorry for criminals. One of the Achille Lauro hijackers got a 30 year sentence and was put on work release from which he ran away. He was eventually recaptured, but it says a lot about Italian "justice" that the guy got on work release to begin with. The weak Italian justice system is why when the follow-up bombers failed in London a few years ago that one of them fled to Italy and fought vigorously to be tried there because he knew the Italians would feel sorry for him and he'd get out of jail eventually.
The one positive thing about the American legal system is that if you do something bad and you get convicted, you'll pay for it. It may be the death penalty, it may be life in prison without parole, or a truly long sentence, but we won't feel sorry for you and put you on work release while you're doing your time.
In Soviet Russia, horrible legal system comes to you.
RTFG - Read The F#$%ing Google!
n/m
Except that basically disenfranchises the poor who could never sue the rich again for fear that they would lose the case. It would also allow the rich to get even better legal counsel for the same amount of money, since they would have to pay said counsel much less often.
the RIAA here claims the [Russian licensing] organization has no authority to make such a deal. Shouldn't the RIAA take up this issue with the licensing organization then? Under the RIAA's same logic, the RIAA has no authority over AllOfMp3.
A: U.S. courts have juridiction in cases where the party to be sued has "such miminal contacts" that allowing the suit would not violate traditional notions of fairness and justice. The US courts have allowed jurisdiction when it is clear that the offending company has intentionally directed buisiness into, and solicited buisiness from, the United States and her citizens.
Here allofmp3 has all the hallmarks of past cases which have succeeded - site is in english, offers prices in U.S. dollars, advertises on U.S. websites and media.
Since their acts take effect here, laws which govern the effect will rule.
Q: How will they enforce the ruling?
There are several ways - the RIAA companies could freeze allofmp3's funds with a court order, and call upon Russia (through the effect of U.S. - Russia treaties) to supply the amount demanded by the judgement. They can asses the value of AllofMp3's domain name and seek to have it sold off to cover the damages. U.S. credit cards and pay-pal could be ordered to cease making payments to allofmp.
Q: How will they get these guys in custody? Russia won't hand them over.
This is a civil case - jail time is not on the table.
-GiH
I buy there because its DRM free and I can get it in any file format I want. If they charged 50 cents a track, I'd still buy there ($1 is ridiculous for lossy audio, I'd pay it for FLAC files, but not for OGGs or MP3s). Its about the DRM for me.
1. US law has nothing to do with "international law". International law consists of treaties. Only treaties signed by states is "binding" on that particular state. The WTO is not an organization based on US law.
2. In terms of international law, each body is a sovereign state, and is completely independent and free to do what it wants except as bound by the treaties that it is a signatore to. (Get it?)
3. Civil suits within the bounds of a sovereign state. DO NOT fall under the jurisdiction of the WTO. Think about it, would any country want the WTO coming in and saying, "we don't like your judgement in this case, so we are over ruling it.". The key here is sovereign.
All I can say is wow.
Mean what you say...say what you mean.
If I understood the AllofMP3.com situation correctly, they are paying the Russian equivalent of the RIAA licensing and royalty fees for the songs they sell, under some obscure loophole of Russian law that allows them to classify their website alongside radio stations and use the much cheaper fees for broadcast licenses. If this is true, then they are violating no Russian law.
But, I also thought that it is illegal for people to import into the United States products that are illegal here, even if said products are legal in the originating country (like bringing weed back from Amsterdam with you... they won't let it in the country, and you'll probably be arrested for possession). If that's the case, then wouldn't the US customers of AllofMP3.com be in violation of these importation laws by buying the songs in Russia (where it's legal) and then importing them to the United States (where it's illegal)? Why would the RIAA not use this vector for attack on AllofMP3, and bring down Capone on tax evasion?
For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
The faqs at allofmp3 seem to detail and debate the various laws involved..
Link to FAQ
You heard right.
The problem is that ROMS does not have permission to represent the interest of the RIAA and thus woudl never have access to the music in any form except via a liscence which is either not valid or is restricted to private use only.
See how it all works. Just becasue ROMS says we haev your money does not make it any more legal.
You can be sure that the contract (if there is one) is under the jurisdiction of russian law, not US law. Like I said in my post, if US citizens are involved, then they are liable, perhaps, but the russian entity is not. As to the slightly off topic... There is no good legal system. The US system is so backlogged and so top heavy its insane. Remember that case where the women spilled hot coffee on herself and sued (I think it was mcdonalds), so now they have to put warnings on their coffee cups that say hot. How stupid are you if you don't know that coffee is hot. Come on. I think that the criminal system is reasonable, however, your civil system is so out of wack. Everybody is looking for a free lunch at the expense of Corporate America. Geeze, look at all those guys who sit on patents, and then wait for somebody to invent something similar and then take them to court. Reality is, it's often cheaper to settle rather than go through the courts and hold up business. I agree with the plaintiff paying all court and legal costs, that would help a lot. Better yet, make the law firms pay for it. That would solve the problems for sure.
Mean what you say...say what you mean.
Something else to think about... 29 years is a long time. People change a lot in 29 years. If someone is a serial rapist, gets caught when they're 29 (and is placed in a holding facility) and goes to jail when they're 34 (not unheard of length of time for such a case), they'll go through intensive reconditioning from the time they're 34 until they're 63. That's pretty much all of their working life. In most parts of the world, prisons are not used to punish people, they are used to keep people out of society until they are no longer a threat to it. Punishment is secondary (or maybe tertiary).
To look at it another way: in the US, everyone is a criminal. It is virtually impossible to go through life not breaking the myriad of federal, state, municipal, and corporate laws. Do you really want a jury of your "peers" to punish you for all the laws you've broken? Wouldn't you rather the court and your peers try to just persuade you never to commit those crimes in the future? Sure, it doesn't always work, but history has shown that a penal-based system is even LESS effective. Sure, the threat of getting caught is bigger, but that just means people work harder to not get caught, committing further crimes they would not otherwise have considered in the process.
OK we are talking a bit of apples and oranges, I'm talking the civil and your talking the criminal. I should perhaps have been more specific.
Mean what you say...say what you mean.
Paying for the privilege of making sure artists never make money from their music.
You guys did that all by yourselves. :)
Mean what you say...say what you mean.
Didn't this story already seal AllOfMP3.com's fate? Russia agreed to shut them down by mid 2007. So, is this just about squeezing a few bucks out of them before they die?
You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
I can't remember how I first heard of the place, I think it was here through Slashdot. This was a few years ago and it was nice to find some out-of-print music that I could only get through ebay for a very high price. I used it a bit and it was well done. The variable bitrates and formats you could get were very nice. I do not use it anymore though. It seems prices have at least doubled from what they used to be, and there isn't as much music that "I have to have" anymore. Shutting down a place like this will cause more people to go back to bittorrent or p2p networks. I don't mind buying music if I want it, but it has to be at a price point that makes sense. Allofmp3 had that price.
Ok, all three of your arguments fall under "Sovereign states get to determine their own internal affairs. They don't have to do what any other state tells them if they don't want." Technically, true. Realistically, not so much. Sure, independent states can do what they want. But if you piss off the powers that be, you don't get to play in the global economy, import goods, export goods, etc., depending on how pissed they get. That's what Russia joining the WTO has to do with this: the WTO (which is pretty much an economic stick swung about by the wealthy nations) is likely to tell Russia they must crack down on "intellectual property infringement" if they want to play ball with the big boys. Russia wants to join the WTO, b/c then they get to be one of the big boys manipulating the world economy for their own advantage, rather than being one of the ones manipulated. I believe the term is realpolitik.
...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
Some years ago, after a client of ours had disobeyed our instructions and flown her paraglider into a tree, and then further disboeyed us by climbing out of the harness and falling to the ground, breaking her back in the process, we received a letter from her London-based solicitors.
They instructed US to send a cheque for 27,000 British Pounds (around 80,000 New Zealand dollars at the time) to pay for her hospital treatments (which were provided free by the New Zealand Accident Compensation Corporation under our Public Health system) and for her shortened holiday, and for her subsequent rehabilitation in Britain.
This was our two word, written response:
"Get Fucked."
We never heard another word.
How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
I imagine that it's slightly tricker than that tho... Pot is illegal to possess in the US, but the music in question is not.
You are purchasing something that was apparently acquired legally in Russia, and is legal to own in the US. Similar to bringing back alcohol from Canada into the US. You have to pay an import tax if the value is above a certain amount (I think, been a long time). Nobody arrests you for having your case of Canadian Mist once you get back to your home in the US.
The two things that seem to be at issue are a) the RIAA's stance on the rights the Russian government has to further delegate distribution rights to Allofmp3.com and b) whether the purchase should be subject to some kind of import tax.
It's a really interesting issue from a legal standpoint, even though IANAL.
BTW, any metaphors comparing made-up, fictional, so-called intellectual property to real, defendable, actual property will fail. Every time.
I don't like the RIAA much, so I try to avoid buying new CDs as much as I can (I believe I have only purchased one brand-new CD this year, from Target). Rather than settle for what iTunes Store offers (or doesn't offer as the case may be), I just purchase all my CDs used from the Amazon marketplace. I'm buying used CDs so I'm not supporting the RIAA (and not pirating at the same time), and I've never paid more than $10 for a CD I've wanted, including shipping... which makes the tracks less than $1/song. I just rip it into iTunes in AAC format and throw the CD onto my shelf for storage if I need it at a later time.
Seems like a simple solution to me... no pirating and music in any format I want.
Even when it's simple, it's not.
-GiH
Meanwhile at allofmp3's jur. dept. :http://www.agniart.ru/imgoods/F/012615/repin22006 .jpg
Does the site have a presence in the US? Well? If it doesn't then they can get bent.
It's called "international copyright law". In parciular, the Berne Convention, was not developed in the US, but was an international effort. Russia is a member of the Berne Union. The RIAA, hate them as I may, clearly has grounds to file a suit here.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Good luck getting your bank to handle transactions with a company that loses that case in a US court.
If VISA and MasterCard and AmEx pay anything to AllOfMP3, they suddenly get to look down the barrel of a really expensive lawsuit.
Ditto for PayPal and the rest.
When AOMP3 loses this one (and they will), a huge chunk of their revenue stream goes away, and not just in the US. Anyone, anywhere, using a major financial institution to pay for those songs will be shutting down, fast.
Making the losing side pay for legal fees is a sure route to no more civil lawsuits by individuals against corporations. Period.
Why would someone take the chance that they could be liable for tens of thousands of dollars (if not more) if things went against them? Today, you can find a lawyer that will represent you just for the possibility that you may get something out of it. Sure, they research the case pretty well, but there is always the risk that the jury isn't going to agree. Or, that the defendent will pull something out of a hat that wasn't expected. Like the plantiff being at least partially at fault.
Today, it is possible to get representation and sue someone with only your time being invested. If that is all you have, fine - if there is a good chance of winning you will find someone to represent you.
Make the loser pay and suddenly you now just don't end up with nothing, you would have to pay a great deal of money. Nobody is going to take that chance. The risk is far too great. Besides, what court would allow a destitute person to file anything without assets to cover their possible loss?
I suppose you might get Bill Gates to donate to a legal defense fund.
IANAL but wouldn't it be convenient for the RIAA to have a judge declare allofmp3.com illegal, so they can subpoena credit card company records of allofmp3 purchasers (AKA people who actually paid, albeit little, and in a different country, for music AKA more customers to sue)?
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
Does meddling crusader American president now think he controls Russian citizens in Russia who obey Russian law. Does arrogant imperialist running dog USA leader live in such a fools paradise that he can allow criminals in his country to run like hooligans over law abiding Russian citizens? Let him come here with his spread out armies and leave their blood and frozen bodies on the steppes like Napoleon and Hitler's troops who so proudly and arrogantly thought they could dictate to us! Better yet. Let the criminal monopolist thieves and pirates who seek to persecute honest Russian company come to Russia and bring their accusations here in Russian court in front of Russian judge who has not been bribed or been a monopolist lackey who got his judgeship in crooked deal. Russian laws are not bought and paid for in bribes and written to specification of monopolist thieves who control crooked election campaign funds. Of course MPAA and RIAA will not do that for they are cowards who want to sit in comfortable offices and have their running dog shyster lawyers do their dirty deeds for them. These movie and recording mafia are some of same ones that imported Russian girls into the United States for purposes of forcing them into slavery and prostitution. It is old 'hollywood story', only now victims not disposable american farm girls but nice Russian girls. Let these monopolist thugs come to Russia and face the justice of the Russian People and be guests of the Lubyanka or nice labor farm outside Ekaterinberg or Sverdlovsk. Maybe some of them could be put to work rebuilding Tchernobyl reactor number 4. Come here american pigs, we Cossacks are waiting for you!
Your example is like me mail ordering an ounce from Amsterdam and the US government busting the guy in Amsterdam.
-peace
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
Like most people I'm getting pretty sick and tired of hearing about "yet another lawsuit" by the Nazis... I mean **AA's.
So it got me to thinking, and hopefully there is someone reading this who knows something about international law and can comment, as to how a US organization can file a lawsuit in US court in the hopes of affecting change in Russia???? Shouldn't they have filled it in Russian court? Or are they so sure they'll lose they can only win by using the "local boys"?
In all seriousness, is there a lawyer around who can comment on this?
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
From what I understand what they are doing in Russia is legal. It obeys Russian copyright law. Now by US law if I buy a CD in Russia and then bring it back to the US I am legally permitted to do so provided I do it for personal use and not to resell it. That is in fact what happens. You get a place on their server and then download what you own onto your own computer for personal use. What is happening is actually quite legal.
_ Term_Extension_Act
l
The RIAA hates this because it allows US customers to in effect pay much lower royalties and is determined to stop it. They are used to getting their way. The congress passed DMCA for them and other parties and has consistently passed more and more legislation widening intellectual property rights. The US patent office now grants crazy patents (like one click shopping) and even let Disney extend their copyright of Mickey mouse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bono_Copyright
There was a story today on slashdot showing how patents in drugs end up suppressing innovation due to abuse to patent law.
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/06/12/21/0530228.shtm
When we create intellectual property we create something that is not obvious. We take away the right of some people to disseminate, display and use certain information and make them pay other for the right to do so. Whenever we extend it we take more from everyone else. So when Congress adds on another 50 years of copyright (or Trademark) they are actually stealing from you. Did they pay you for it? They may have eminent domain power but no-one paid you when they took property from you and gave it to the copyright holder.
Given that the massive extensions in intellectual property no longer yield the promised positive results, perhaps it is time for the community to take back what was previously theirs. I am not advocating an end to intellectual property but rather sensible limitations.
Eg
1. Copyright would last for 30 years. That's it. No more. After 30 years its public domain. That would include text, movies, audio, video...you name it.
2. No shenanigans with selling music. Ie you can't sell music that only works on an ipod and cant be transferred to another machine if ipods aren't around any more.
3. Only real patents are allowed. It becomes much easier to throw out patents. Eg no one click shopping and if someone else comes up with the same idea independently then it's really not patentable.
4. No patents of genes or parts of the human body.
5. No more draconian punishments of 5 or 10 or 15 years in jail for breaking IP law. Its not rape or murder or assault. Its theft and should be viewed in perspective. Ie max prison term of 1 year.
6. Extending fair use to making personal backup copies.
7. No laws against breaking encryption. Those laws are so Orwellian.
8. Rigourous enforcement of antitrust laws against big media companies with loss of IP protection if they break them. IE if you are Microsoft and you violate them then you lose your IP on windows ect.
9. No awarding money from sales of MP3 players or blank CDs to media companies. IF they get money from them because of piracy they cant then also so users when they catch them. That is double dipping
10. IF you want a piece of the public airwaves - eg you're a TV station ect then we the public are going to charge you for that privilege and that means we can record whatever we want off those public airwaves for free (for personal use.)
11. No extreme IP laws where you are scared of drawing a picture of someone because even if its your picture it might be their likeness ect. Basically keep IP as a concept LIMITED.
12. Since IP laws are supposedly for the good of the community then we let educational intuitions have a lot more freedom in using material in the course of teaching.
None of this changes the fact that using allofmp3.com is actually quite legal.
So far that I know renumeration was offered publicly to artists that wanted to be compensated (even they didn't have to, because in russia all intellectual property is owned by the governemt, still) I don't think allofmp3 offered any renumeration to RIAA cartel, since they are in competition. Offering renumeration breaks down the idea that allofmp3 is a thief. I mean you can be devicive in terms of law, but that doesn't make you a crook, just somewhat illegal is fuzzy terms. Like when you shoot unregistered gun in the forest, is that really a procecutable crime? Like shooting someone with unregistered gun? What allofmp3 did, is offer alot of people choice, to have quality music, at prices they can afford. RIAA cartel is still in horse buggy whip business, where they want to maintain CD retail in way it was done since 80's, while technology in broad sense have moved on and is offering far better alternatives. They are pricing digital music as if they had to pay for warehousing each copy, paying for entire factory to be there, for people in brown coats that deliver cds, large real estate properties downtown. etc.
What they are afraid of is that music distribution is now a commodity. Really anyone can do it, who has some spare change in the pockets. If you have a bit more, you can do it really well, like all of mp3. If you have around say less then 100K then you can set up entire conversion workforce somewhere to put up CDs in whatever format users want. And have alot available in a short term. Something to compete with itunes and whatnot.
I'd say kudos to allofmp3, they have shown it that it can be done.
Russia shutting them down? I suppose they're suing for damages, which they could still (in theory) get, but it's a weird time to finally get around to it.
-puk
1) Most US laws do not govern criminal action or create crimes. Most US laws deal with government policy - and things as trivial as the naming of post offices and small side streets.
2) Most US laws that do govern behavior do not carry criminal penalties - they carry fines. Speeding, fine, smoking in the wrong place? fine. Even failing to show up for a court date is only a fine unless the court date was for a criminal act.
3) Your assertion that there is a common principle and experience in US prisons is laughably naieve - each state system pursuses its own path through sentancing procedures - Liberal states like California favor correction and retraining, Texas has chain gangs. Universally, conditions in U.S. jails are safer, cleaner, and more comfortable than all but a very few european prisons (the Dutch are very good prison wardens, for example). The rest of the world is the pits (in Japan, there is no mattress, and you are expected to sit in one place facing a wall each day - all day).
It's fun to bash the U.S., but you're going to have to go against reality to stand behind your earlier statements.
-GiH
Don't bring McDonalds suit into this discussion. It actually had a lot more merit than this one does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_Hot_Coffee
$signature =~ s/$signature//;
what about cases like this?
Oh.. or maybe it's because your laws make it a criminal act to write about cases that are ongoing or sealed?
We have our trials, and our freedoms.
-GiH
Because the RIAA thinks their legal rights are being violated.
The US, as do most soveriegn nations, exercises jurisdiction over violations of its laws wherever in the universe they may occur. It may, by its own law, restrict the territorial applicability of its laws, and, of course, successful litigants may have trouble executing judgements against foreign actors, but that's a different issue.
Anyhow, Americans didn't start this, we're just copying the British (not the last paragraph of the article.)
I don't need allies like you on the side of the American legal system. There is no Western nation except the United States that still has the death penalty. It is barbaric and ineffective, and--provably--is frequently used on the innocent in this country.
Harsh punishments do not make a good legal system, they just make good headlines for bloodthirsty assholes like you.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
The RIAA is for the most part an association of Corporations.
... nevermind, you have probably seen that movie.
These corporations have an unlimited lifespan, and the legal purpose of a Corporation is solely to make money.
But in our wisdom, our courts decided more than a century ago, that this Corporate Entity is a legal person: with all the legal benefits of person, but apparently little punishment for wrongdoings.
This eternal entity obviously wants to "own" "copyrights" forever, for profit (its legal mandate). So the behavior of the RIAA and MPAA is not surprising.
If you had robots with rights that could outlive humans, you may have some of the same ownership problems as those created with this artificial corporation person creation.
When a corporation is made of of all robot employees
allofmp3 pays royalties. The RIAA will receive royalties from the organization that allofmp3 pays if they ask. They refuse to ask because they do not like the compulsory licensing laws in Russia. To ask for the money will imply consent, so they sue the law abiding citizens (allofmp3) because they do not like the Russian laws. There is nothing wrong with compulsory licensing. There is compulsory licensing in the US as well, but the terms are favorable to the RIAA so they accept it and take their money when it is paid. So the problem isn't that they object to how things are handled. They object to the level of payment they receive. And they are suing a lawfully operating company because of a complaint about a government's actions.
Regardless of what one things about anything else they do, suing a company that is not in violation of any law because of annoyance over a government's policies is just wrong.
Learn to love Alaska
0) I assuming you're talking about the "everyone's a criminal" statement. I admit that was used in a non-legal way. Correctly, it should have been stated "Everyone is guilty of breaking laws they have not been brought to justice for breaking."
1) I agree 100%. I never stated otherwise. However, there are enough (for instance, DMCA) that DO create crimes as to make this an issue.
2) Once again, I agree 100%. My Jury statement was not meant to imply that if you are in breach of civil law, you are required to go before a jury and can be convicted; it was made to make you think about the law from a personal standpoint instead of a "that guy over there who is obviously guilty" standpoint. The law should be crafted to prevent YOU from inappropriate infringements on YOUR freedoms -- and by extension, everyone else who is also a "you".
3) Your assertion that I asserted there is a common principle and experience in US prisons is misleading... I never stated that, and do not believe it. I was responding to the parent's claim that other systems are worse because they do not punish criminals well enough.
I admit that when I talked about the myriad types of laws in the US, I failed to mention that they are enforced in a myriad of ways. I however, did not mean to bash the US or its legal/criminal/penal/judicial systems on any point except the first one, that "everyone is a criminal." The rest of the statement is a response to the parent's attitude about what makes a good penal system. If I were to go into depth about penal systems, I would point out that in Italy, people "feel sorry" for convicted felons because of the state of their jails -- and the fact that bribery works wonders in some parts of Italy. For that matter, in France you have to prove your innocence; they don't have to prove your guilt.
With regards to California, they have a very interesting prison system... they have one of the largest prison populations in the world, but also one of the best managed as far as quality of life goes. They have instituted a correctional system, while at the same time instituting a "3 strikes" system for more severe crimes. The result is that, depending on what law you run afoul of, California's system may be either one of the best or one of the worst to be subject to.
Tetris - From Russia With Love -> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4662636869 909322164&q=tetris
What's this allofmp3 site? I never heard of it! Whoa, it's right here on Yahoo News, so lots of people must be using it. Well, let me take a look at it...hmmm, looks pretty neat! I pay a low price and the MP3s have no copy protection. I don't have to buy CDs or use iTunes anymore just so I can get music that will play on my iPod. They've got a great selection, too. It's WAY easier to use than file sharing, because the download is pretty fast, the selection is better, and I don't have to worry about fake files or viruses either.
Wow, allofmp3.com. I'm sure glad the record companies sued them and that the news story printed the name of the website. I wouldn't have heard of them, but now they've got a new customer!
Penny - plain text accounting
"You be the captain, and I'll be no one." -- Kasey Chambers
The Berne convention in itself is not a law in the individual countries. Each country has its own law which "implements" the Berne convention, but they are still different laws in different countries, and thus the us courts have no jurisdiction over the copyright laws in Russia.
They have Tin Foil Hats in Russia now? And how does Bush fit into all of this?
Does that still work for people who haven't been around for 21 years and 9 months?
One of the conditions of EU membership is relinquishing the death penalty. The United Kingdom abolished it in 1965. In the UK, life imprisonment means a maximum of 25 years.
However, please take the time to realize that the obviously-in-your-eyes-soft-bellied-pinko-liberal UK has considerably LESS crime than the US. Most especially violent crime. This is true of ALL other Western Nations. Brazil is a very flawed nation in many ways, most of its citizens are to some degree or other afraid of its government - legal system or otherwise.
And as to: Please, seriously, take some time to read Plato's Republic. An Ancient Greek he may have been, but some of his 2,300 year old writings on Justice are more intelligent and enlightened than your "hang 'em high" überrightwing mentality. Just keep that Truthiness a-comin Bubba!
Face the facts - all aspects of the US legal system fail pretty much everyone who is not actually a lawyer, or rich enough to hire a rich lawyer.
This argument ignores the initial cost. It may cost 5 cents to burn a second DVD of a movie but burning the first DVD cost $150 million.
So what happens if 'allofmp3' guys just say f-you and dont show up? Are they going to send a CnD or a court order to the isp to shut them down? What happens when they just move to a new isp?
As a musician, how do you make sure that when you write music, you don't accidentally copy part of someone else's song the way George Harrison did when he wrote "My Sweet Lord"?
Sorry and I will continue to argue.That's good. I've been waiting for someone with the patience to discuss the finer points of this.
Do I agree with RIAA suing everyone? No. However I do see the illegal copying of copyrighted material unethical and criminal.The Gershwin family has had over 80 years to make money off Rhapsody in Blue. So why is it unethical to reproduce the work or perform it publicly? Criminal, perhaps, but only because the Congress of the United States is bought and paid for.
You apparently haven't been paying very close attention to the U.S. government's actions lately. Marc Emery is currently facing extradition to the U.S. because marijuana seeds he sells over the Internet were purchased by U.S. citizens. The government of the United States has little respect for international borders. Small wonder its corporations follow suit.
I don't care why you're posting AC
-(albeit not allofmp3.com itself, AFAIK, but other similar sites)- I say, for the love of god stop defending allofmp3.com.
Look, if you don't want artists (as well as essential 'support personnel' like studio engineers and producers) to get paid for their work, then knock yourselves out and download it from p2p for free.
Buying from these sites, when none of the money goes back to the artist, seems like a double insult to me. If you're doing it because paying some ludricously tiny amount to people who had nothing to do with the creative work behind a music release, nor the financial capital required to realise it, means you can pretend to yourself that it's all above board, then you're basically just lying to yourself.
You download my or my band's stuff from kazaa/soulseek/whatever, I'll shrug and not care. You were obviously never going to pay for it anyway. So, hell, at least you heard it. But paying some random Muscovite mafia dude instead of paying the artists? To qualm your conscience? Honestly, that's pathetic. Have some fucking balls and pirate it properly, please.
Can someone explain why this is marked troll?
There must be a lot of money in litigating - imagine the cost of suing a website based in a foreign country versus marketing a product for which people will just pay you. I wonder if they get "venture capital" to pursue these stoopid international escapades?
1 in 4 Maine children in struggle with hunger.
it's only funny 'cuz it's true
civil actions determine legal and financial responsibility. not guilt or innocence. that is for the criminal courts.
in the american system, an elemental sense of justice demands that the courts remain open to the poor and middle class. the rich win by default when the poor pay costs. not every plaintiff is Microsoft.
An expensive initial cost does not make the end product inherently more valuable, so yes, I rightfully ignore it. If your business model is based around spending $150 million to create something that I can turn around and duplicate for 5 you might want to rethink it.
Your argument could be rewritten as follows...
I see no point of following the NFL, we have enough people that play in the amatuer leagues around here. They are not worse athletes, they just play a little rougher. The truth is though, that any of those local bands would jump at the opportunity to sign with a big name recording label, just as any person in the amateur football league would jump at the opportunity to join the NFL. Not to say that there are not good local bands (football players), because I enjoy live music as much as the next guy, but there is a reason some people are being paid big money.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't allofmp3 charge a fixed fee for unlimited download? Also, aren't royalties usually based on a per song basis. So how can unlimited fixed fee possibly be compatible with a per song model? Im sure if the RIAA asked for money, they would get no where near what they feel they should get. Whether what they should get or not is not our decision, because they are the owners of the property.
Unless you are from russia (not visited there or changed planes there or ate food from there) then you dont know how business or gray economy operates there. says USA? and? its easy to mouth off about what russian company should do. Go there (riaa reps) and stop by their office... one of 2 few will happen - you wont be let into the building or you get your face beaten in and if ur lucky somebody will find you after snow melts in somewhat good condition. in russia you dont mess with other peoples money NO MATTER where it came from. its dangerous to your health. so while living in disneyland making disney comments that have no meaning for russia itself... noting will happen. site will be up (was A reason russia was not let into WTO) and what happened? Putja and Brush met over private dinner >> green light :)
site running ? yep. its like crazy dude yelling at you from behind a cage - all you do is throw peanuts at him and laugh, you can also spit at him it gets them more exited. no balls to go there yeah?
all of mp3 bad? go anywhere in russia you can get anything pirated before its released in theaters for less than 3$ software included. yes, in the open.. not some 'computer guy friend'
so what you got?
Dont Judge The situation by the Misfortunate. Goga.
Please America, don't try to bring your horrible legal system to the rest of the world. We don't want it.
Thanks for the slam. Thing is, there's a lot about our legal system that some billions of people might like to enjoy (you know, the whole Bill of Rights thing, etc. etc.) but will never have the chance because their own truly horrible legal systems stand in the way. Now, if you'd said, "Please America, don't try to bring your corrupted copyright scheme to the rest of the world" I'd be more inclined to agree with you. Best to be more specific in such cases.
In any event, its your choice whether to adopt such laws or not: Europe seems to be going full steam ahead with this crap. I'm sorry to see it happen since I think the people of the European Union deserve better, but it just goes to show that their leaders (both governmental and corporate) are just as greedy and corrupt as ours.
Have a nice day.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
...are belong to us! For great justice!!!!
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Allofmp3.com pays ROMS, which pay you royalties if you ask. I'd hardly consider it pirated.
According to the site, allofmp3.com pays licensing rights to the Russian Multimedia and Internet Society (ROMS) -- and that makes them legal.
The true problem is that ROMS does not distribute these funds to the writers/composers/performers of the purchased songs. Instead of pointing your arrows to allofmp3.com, you should be lobbying/suing ROMS for your share of the licensing money.
We have the same situation in the Netherlands. When we buy blank media, we also pay a fee for the rights of the creators of the content we are about the copy. This fee is factored into the price of the media -- and so you pay it even though you only use the media for data backups. Supposedly, this pays for the fair use rights the Dutch have.
I wouldn't mind this so much, if the foundation where all this money goes to, would actually distribute that money to the content creators. Alas, they do not -- but that is beyond my direct control.
Instead of suing allofmp3, content creators should sue the foundations that collect these fees without distributing them to the content creators. This will make everyone better off (except perhaps the highwaymen who run these foundations, but no-one should have pity for them).
She wasn't a member of allofmp3 then, they don't do unlimited downloading for a set fee any more than itunes does.
I actually agree with this. America would be lots better if Bush and the movie/recording industry execs were forced into Russia (certainly a better use for them than they're doing now). One tip, though- I write like that when I'm up at 2AM in the morning after a busy day. Maybe it would help to wait until you're more refreshed (a cup of coffee/tea/caffiene drink would work too) to post here. Your opinion is appreciated, though.
OSx86 FTW
> What I never understood is why anybody would use this service.
Why? Because when you buy it, you have it legaly (as far as I understand Anglo-Saxon laws). RIAA can not sue you. They can sue AllOfMP3 (which they try), but it'll be hard, because they operate legaly in russia. Why it is legal? I give you brief explanatory how it work in my country (Czech Rep.), which have similar laws like Russian.
We had organization called OSA which stand in for all musicans (unless they opt out). And when you operate radio you give them list of songs you play and money according to their price list and OSA distribute money (do not ask me how and to who). You pay OSA for playing radio on public place like your market, pub... You pay them for each blank CD you sell (owner of the blank CD can record there some music, so you should pay in advance). You pay for selling copy machine, printer (new owner can make copy of some copyrighted text). You pay for lots of things. And it is not penny - for blank CD it can be 30% of its price. In exchange our law do not criminalize you from downloading, copiing CD, books, movies. If somebody publish it (even on P2P) you can downloaded. But you have to have right to publish it (or you-the publisher are criminalized). Often you have no right to publish it (P2P), but you can make agreement and pay OSA whatever you and they agree (like 0.000000000001$ per song) and it is OK according to law. Well OSA then should pay to holder of rights. But it is blackbox. Nobody knows what they do with that money. And similar situation is in Russian with AllOfMP3. Owner of right (or RIAA) should care. They should sue organization which allow it (like OSA in Czech). Or they should sue country for bad law. But they rather sue seller like AllOfMP3 becouse it is easier.
Two words: trade embargo.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
And they're asking for $1.65 Trillion USD! http://www.betanews.com/article/US_Music_Publisher s_Sue_AllofMP3_for_165_Trillion_USD/1166739613
I see where you're going with your example, but in such a proceeding you would probably join all possible defendants. In addition to the fast food joint, you'd name the person who made the coffee, served it, the equipment manufacturer, etc. It's pretty common, and if you won, they'd be joint and severally liable for the damages. You'd only be joining the fast food place as a defendant under the doctrine of respondeat superior, but you'd also name other defendants. At that point if the person wasn't an employee and the fast food place was off the hook, the person who served it would still be liable.
Of course, you're an idiot if you burn yourself with coffee. You know its hot and don't deserve a dime.
Well, my understanding is the RIAA has REFUSED payment from ROMS for the artists the RIAA represents. *Then* the RIAA complained about not getting paid 8-).