Slashdot Mirror


Flash Memory HDD for Notebooks Launched

ukhackster writes "Traditional magnetic hard drive platters could be on the way out, thanks to SanDisk's launch today of a hard drive based on flash memory chips. The device can store 32GB of data and is meant for notebooks . SanDisk claims that using flash chips means faster access and better reliability, so less danger of a serious system crash wiping out all your valuable data if you drop your laptop. The downside, though, is price. At an extra $600 dollars, are price-conscious consumers going to be interested?"

277 comments

  1. Just in time for Macworld? by BWJones · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hrmmmm..... just in time for Macworld? Oh please, oh please, oh please.....

    I've written about this before in a number of places, but most recently here on my last trip to Argentina, but I am hoping that we will see a revised 12in Powerbook nee MacBook Pro (or smaller) in the next Macworld because I really do miss the smaller form factor. It would be tremendously useful for travelers and photographers as well as giving us better battery life.

    I am currently using a 15in Powerbook that I traded up from when the 12in Powerbook was cancelled, but a smaller footprint would help tremendously with travel. With the 15in Powerbook/Macbook Pro, I love the illuminated keyboard and the performance, but would be willing to pay a premium to carry a smaller laptop, subnotebook or tablet running OS X. It does not even have to have an optical drive as I rip movies I purchase or rent to the hard drive for long airline flights and in fact, if we could get flash drives down a bit in price (or get a sweet deal on bulk purchases for the manufacturer), it would be possible to even get rid of the hard drive provided we could still pack 30-40 GBs of storage space in the device. Battery life would be improved and if you combine it with a 10in diagonal new technology LED display (or OLED), we may even be able to get away with seven or eight hours of honest full on battery life. So Steve, come on dude. We've talked about this before several times. The technology currently exists or is damn close and I am sure there is a market for such a device, so please, please, please.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yup, people eager to line up to pay over the odds for flashy underpowered trinkets are the ideal market for the initial release of this technology.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by BWJones · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yup, people eager to line up to pay over the odds for flashy underpowered trinkets are the ideal market for the initial release of this technology.

      Ha ha ha. Seriously though, the ideal market for this technology has been defense related work for a number of years now. However, costs are decreasing to a point where we can now start putting these drives in Toughbooks (to make 'em even tougher), or portable devices that do tend to get bumped and thrown around a fair bit more. Just witness my last passage through customs here in the US where a "Homeland Security" officer inverted my laptop bag, dumping out the contents onto a desk from over a foot high. Laptop, point and shoot camera, cell phone and a portable hard drive loaded with photos all came crashing down. If there were flash discs instead of hard drives, I would have been perhaps less pissed off.

      The other category where flash drives are absolutely critical is for lots of remotely control data gathering devices. One of my friends who has been working on remotely piloted vehicles has been clamoring for just this sort of technology as it is much more rugged than hard drives for their applications (hard landings).

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    3. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by kitman420 · · Score: 1

      There's no mention about the maximum number of read/writes to Nand flash. According to Sandisk themselves at best you will get 2,000,000 erase cycles per sector. That's why you don't put a journalled OS on a CF card. Unless this new flash does a lot of smart data placement (which would probably cause a lot of data fragmentation) or OS in these new laptops is designed for flash memory use, I wouldn't buy one anytime soon.

    4. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by BWJones · · Score: 1

      According to Sandisk themselves at best you will get 2,000,000 erase cycles per sector.

      Is that substantially different from magnetic media? This is not my area of expertise, but I seem to remember reading that magnetic media (hard drives) has similar duty cycles.

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    5. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by BigDumbAnimal · · Score: 1

      Data Fragmenation is less of an issue with an access time of 0ms.

      See here.

    6. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by mikeisme77 · · Score: 1

      Data fragmentation isn't an issue with flash memory--they don't need to spin up to the point where the data is located, they can simply access it right away. However, the limited number of erase cycles can be a problem. It all depends on how the file system/you are going to use the drive. If you're going to be moving data, replacing data, etc. often and don't need the benefits of speed and durability then this isn't for you yet. However, if you're primary concerns are durability (as mentioned in the posts about why this would be important to defense contractors) then this would be extremely useful. Likewise, if you don't have a file system that is constantly moving files around on the hard drive (to prevent fragmentation) and you don't really delete your files/programs all that often then the speed and durability might be what you're looking for (although the $600 price point is rather hefty... so you better REALLY need the speed...) At the moment, I would assume that durability is the greatest pro that might be the clincher for those who need hard drives that can sustain a considerable amount of abuse (e.g. remote air crafts and such).

    7. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by IMarvinTPA · · Score: 1

      What does fragmentation have to do with anything on a flash device? There is no head to move to anywhere to get the data.

      IMarv

    8. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by locokamil · · Score: 2, Funny

      Awesome. A story about a platform neutral technology is hijacked and converted into a MacWorld rumor mill.

      Am I flaming? Assuredly.

    9. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by LoudMusic · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yup, people eager to line up to pay over the odds for flashy underpowered trinkets are the ideal market for the initial release of this technology. You mean Mac users right?
      --
      No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
    10. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Threni · · Score: 1

      > (which would probably cause a lot of data fragmentation)

      With no moving parts to wear out and no physical thrashing to contend with, why would you care? Besides, you'd probably be able to defrag them, should you want to.

    11. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Secrity · · Score: 4, Funny

      " a "Homeland Security" officer inverted my laptop bag, dumping out the contents onto a desk from over a foot high. Laptop, point and shoot camera, cell phone and a portable hard drive loaded with photos all came crashing down."

      It helps if you heed the prominently displayed signs and take your laptop out of the bag as instructed before you present it for inspection.

    12. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by BWJones · · Score: 2, Informative

      It helps if you heed the prominently displayed signs and take your laptop out of the bag as instructed before you present it for inspection.

      Not if you are rushed off of the plane to care for another passenger (turns out was VIP and foreign national) who is having a medical emergency. We did not even get to the gate where you are officially supposed to present your materials, yet you are still told that you have to endure an inspection of belongings and documentation even when trying to obtain medical care for someone. Kind of absurd if you ask me.....

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    13. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The question of whether people will be willing to pay an "extra $600" for this technology isn't really an issue.

      A little over a year ago, 1gigabyte flash drives were selling for over $100. If you go to Staples right now, you can still see some. But I bought a 1gig Sansadisk flash for $15 a few weeks ago. So a better question would be if people would be willing to pay an additional $80 for this new technology because that's what it'll cost a year or so from now.

      The answer is "effin' right!"

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    14. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by creamandchives · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just as well you didnt have a WMD in there, it could have exploded/leaked/bled all over everyone at the airport...

    15. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by dreamlax · · Score: 1

      Would it have pissed you off further if a posh lady in front of you had her 143 items picked out of her handbag carefully and neatly placed onto the desk?

    16. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell ya what smartass. How about if the person having the medical emergency next time is you and he just lets you die among strangers in the middle of the plane isle? Would that piss you off any less? Sounds to me like he was doing a good thing and was treated badly by HomelandSecurity.

    17. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You got your carry on items inspected getting *off* the plane???

    18. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by dreamlax · · Score: 1

      Relax, it was a rhetorical question relating to Murphy's Law. You know, the whole "if something goes wrong, it goes wrong in the worst possible way" sort of thing. No offence to anyone intended (perhaps possibly security).

    19. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Flash has burst transfer rates the way a HD does. This only works when the data is contiguous. So there is something similar to "seek time" going on.

    20. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get real. Would you REALLY pay a $600+ premium for a machine with half the available internal storage as the entry-level MacBook? That drive they mention is 32gb - UNFORMATTED. Formatted it'll be 28gb, maximum. The MacBooks have about 56bg formatted capacity in the 60gb configuration. You wouldn't by a $2000 12" laptop with 30mb of drive space if you could get a 13" MacBook with 60 or 80gb of drive space for $1200, and you know it.

      Think hard. Sure, if you've got shitloads of cash stretching your pockets you just might. But for most people (including yours truly) it's an extravagance. My MacBook has a 60gb drive, and I need more. 32gb would be intolerable. I have several gigabytes of photos in my iPhoto library and an ever-expanding iTunes library. More, more, more. I've never felt that having LESS hard drive space would be a desirable state of affairs.

    21. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      A problem with electronic access to maintenance manual libraries is that G.I.s are harsh on equipment. Flash drives for military computers make sense and would easily pay for themselves in reduced system downtime.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    22. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why didn't you just keep using a 12" PowerBook.
      Weren't they still available as recently as a year ago?

    23. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Shag · · Score: 1

      Well, of course. Just to make sure nobody gave him anything on the plane that he could have combined with something else to make an explosive that he'd then use to blow up the patient. Entirely logical.

      Kind of like going between flights in Japan. Off the plane, over to have your papers looked at and have everything put through the metal detector, then they'll actually let you into the airport proper.

      Oh, and then there's the airports where you go through the metal detector before you even check in - Nairobi and Entebbe are good examples of this. Then, when you get to the gate, they do it again, just in case you bought all manner of dangerous things at duty-free. What fun.

      --
      Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
    24. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Przemo-c · · Score: 1

      Data fragmentation? If physical placment of the data on HDD is impostant on Flash drives its irrelavanr. i mean accesing data from the first sector and the last sector on classic spinning HDD takes a lot of time on flash drives it realy doesnt matter. As for write cycles ... HDD wil die before that CF runs out of these cycles. When i saw my freiend defragmenting his flashdrive i made a classic ROTFL. btw . why did HDD manufacturers so desperately trying to reduce nymber of plates in low (for this time) capacity droves. wasnt the drive reading 1 cylinder at one time .. so if the cylinder is bigger the better.

    25. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "a revised 12in Powerbook nee MacBook Pro"

      just for that little 'nee' you deserve to be beaten to within an inch of your life.

    26. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Antifuse · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. Sure they're expensive now, but who cares? They're not made in any kind of quantities to be price-savvy at the moment, but they sure as hell will be in the future. I'd buy one just to have the reduced heat in my laptop.

    27. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Secrity · · Score: 1

      In the 1980's at the Riyadh, Saudi Arabia airport, I was going through a security check that didn't have an x-ray machine. A security guard carrying an M-16 dumped electric razor whisker dust all over himself when he found out that the little button on my razor causes the triple heads to pop open. He very quickly set the still open razor down in my briefcase and handed my briefcase back to me, with the lid still open. It reminded me of my cats when they do something stupid and then try to pretend that they meant to do that.

    28. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Kirth+Gersen · · Score: 1

      It helps if people who fail to see the "prominently displayed signs" are not immediately taught a lesson by the smirking and allpowerful jackbooted scumbag.

    29. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does your sexual orientation have to do with this? OFFTOPIC!!

    30. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      A better wording would be that the enviroments that GI's work in are frequently harsh on equipment. Add in that we frequently work in remote locations where we can't just get another laptop(or whatever) overnighted to us, and you can see why we want tough systems.

      Oil company and utility workers have many of the same concerns.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    31. Re:Just in time for Macworld? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      I run a USAF Support Section (tool/test equipment crib). The weather doesn't throw test equipment in a mound of junk in the launch truck. :)
      Both the environment AND the G.I.s are harsh on gear. Since the user give-a-shit factor is often limited, the tougher the gear and the more spares the better!

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  2. It's a corporate tool by Brickwall · · Score: 1

    But price-conscious consumers won't be the initial market; it will be security conscious businesses that don't want to risk losing valuable data worth much than $600. They will buy enough of them for the price to move down the demand curve, and into the consumer market. Look for them to be standard issue in 3-5 years.

    --
    What was once true, is no longer so
    1. Re:It's a corporate tool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it will be security conscious businesses that don't want to risk losing valuable data

      ... that's what backups are for. Its not just mechanical hard drive failures you have to worry about ...

      Back up - snapshots of drives to dvd, work in svn, snapshots of svn, copy on separate server at separate location, and daily changes on usb keychain + separate server at separate location. Anything less is just stupid if your data is really worth anything.

    2. Re:It's a corporate tool by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Ok. How about for field engineers who are already hard on equipment? I'd bet that the hard drive is one of the more common failure of Toughbooks. Take that out of the equation, and you can keep your guys in the field working longer, without the downtime of repairs. Backups are good, but they don't solve every problem.

    3. Re:It's a corporate tool by The+Great+Pretender · · Score: 1

      You must be an IT guy, someone who has never left the idealistic world of a desk and worked in the field (no I'm not talking about the server room). $600 verses backups is simple math when you're in the field. Also, say I'm on a processing platform in the middle of the Thai Gulf and my laptop has been collecting data for >5 hours using a program that can't be interrupted then the harddrive bombs...where's my backup? There's only so much redundancy that can be planned for and implemented with any logistical sense.

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    4. Re:It's a corporate tool by ijdod · · Score: 1

      Honestly, I've seen loads of broken flash devices. While the lack of moving parts will make them a lot less vulnerable to shock, I wouldnt just assume it won't suddenly die on you.

  3. No. by geekboybt · · Score: 4, Informative

    By definition, a person who is "price conscious" will most likely not spring for the +$600 pricetag. The cost/GB is way too high. I see it being introduced just as any other technology - early adopters will get half-baked, Rev. A quality devices and pay a large premium for them. Once adoption becomes more widespread, prices will come down, and the "price conscious" (read: patient) folk will reap the benefits of the early adopters' beta testing.

    1. Re:No. by Shanep · · Score: 1

      "I see it being introduced just as any other technology - early adopters will get half-baked, Rev. A quality devices and pay a large premium for them."

      Why would these devices be half-baked, Rev. A quality? They're flash storage with an ATA interface. Compact Flash is flash storage with an ATA interface and CF works great as an IDE HDD drop-in replacement, with passive (no extra logic required) adaptors.

      Just different packaging with maybe some better DMA capabilities over that which some Sandisk CF units already have.

      Flash based IDE and SCSI interfaced solid state drives (non Sandisk) have been out for a long time.

      --
      War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
  4. An extra $600? by 8127972 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    " At an extra $600 dollars, are price-conscious consumers going to be interested?"

    Economy of scale will ensure that it's not $600 for long.

    --
    This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
    1. Re:An extra $600? by imsabbel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sorry, you dont really get more economy of scale than flash already has.

      There are improvements ahead with further process shrinks, but to get the same storage than a decent big HD has, you need roughly all chips of a 20cm wafer.

      And creating 100s of cm^2 of memory-quality dice isnt cheap.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    2. Re:An extra $600? by iamdrscience · · Score: 1
      Economy of scale will ensure that it's not $600 for long.
      Not really, because the real cost of these drives is the cost of flash, which has already seen the benefits of economy scale so it's not going to get much cheaper. I mean, a 32GB flash drive is going to get cheaper, but it will be due to Moore's law, not economy of scale, so a flash drive will never be competitive to a traditional hard drive (except in applications they're already competitive in now).
    3. Re:An extra $600? by lindseyp · · Score: 1

      The point is that Moore's law is enabling flash drives (as well as HD storage) to get cheaper at an exponential rate which is faster than the size required to hold an OS is growing. $600 is a lot for 32GB, but 32GB is already enough to hold an entire OS and applications suite for many people. There are already plenty of people (professionals) willing to pay that $600 for the priviledge of storing it on flash. When 32GB costs $100 in flash, however little it costs on disk, the latest version of your favourite OS plus apps may take up 60GB, but then you'll have a 64GB drive for less than $200. A premium even I'd pay, no matter how cheap HD media is.

      --
      j'ai découvert une démonstration vraiment admirable (de ce théorème général) que cette si
    4. Re:An extra $600? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I'll have to agree with this.

      As a power user, I'd be willing to pay about the cost of a hard drive for a flash drive that's large enough to take my OS and program files. I'll do the custom install to have my user directories and data files on the hard drive I'd also install. That way all the program files and DLLs that don't often change(despite microsoft's best efforts) are on the fast, solid state flash, and the user directories and cache and size intensive files like music and video are on the cheap mass storage hard drive.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  5. HD by El+Lobo · · Score: 5, Interesting
    What a wonderful life will be when a computer will contain NO MOVABLE mechanical components. This is actually the real bottleneck in modern machines and not processor power as many people think.

    Those things are ineffective , slow, power hungry,relative unreliable, etc. I wonder how they dis last so long.

    Oh well, we are still using wheels in our cars so... maybe it's not so surprising after all.

    --
    It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
    1. Re:HD by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do CF/SD cards/chips suffer the same multiple write problem that USB keys do? (my assumption is yes)

      Specifically, can they handle *thousands/tens of thousands* of writes as Windows (or whatever OS) does it's behind the scenes busy work?


      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    2. Re:HD by homer_ca · · Score: 1

      The transfer rate on most flash memory is slower than hard drives (sometimes much slower). Their only speed advantage is no seek time for random access.

    3. Re:HD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I had no end of problems with CF cards while doing some embedded systems work. Surprisingly, the limited write cycle was the least of the problems; mostly the cards tended to die due to improper powerup/power down where, presumably, transient currents would somehow fry the card. It happened to several brands and I never understood why they didn't have integrated protections from this sort of thing. A second, more sinister type of failure was due to mechanical shock; it seems the wires within the chips (those gold ones connecting the silicon to the pins) would break. Found this out the hard way after moving a chip to a working card. (soldering was most likely not the cause, since the card started working again with the original chip put back into place).

    4. Re:HD by silentounce · · Score: 1

      Are you proposing the end of mice and keyboards? Touch screen and pads only? Gah!

      --
      There are many tongues to talk, and but few heads to think. -Victor Hugo
    5. Re:HD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh well, we are still using wheels in our cars so... maybe it's not so surprising after all. What the hell else would you put between your car and the road? Greased skis?
    6. Re:HD by mean+pun · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The transfer rate on most flash memory is slower than hard drives (sometimes much slower). Their only speed advantage is no seek time for random access.

      For this particular application that might not be a problem, since a lot of memory chips will be needed, and you can access them in parallel.

    7. Re:HD by geoffspear · · Score: 1

      A cushion of air. Duh.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    8. Re:HD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because you wouldn't use any moving parts to generate a cushion of air.

      How did those Star Wars speeders work? They hovered even while parked.

    9. Re:HD by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Frankly, hard drives fail so rarely that it's not really a problem in my opinion. I really don't think flash "drive" is as fast as a hard drive of the same price, there's really no point. The problem with flash is that for each bit, you have to architect tiny wires, with a drive, it's just a two-state point in a magnetic medium, for the near term, cost effectiveness, speed and density of hard drives simply win out. If you are so worried about reliability, for $500 you can RAID-mirror two 200GB drives in a notebook and have 6x more storage than this flash drive.

      Maybe next year.

    10. Re:HD by timeOday · · Score: 1
      Their only speed advantage is no seek time for random access.
      "Only"? Seek time counts for an awful lot in my (note)book.
    11. Re:HD by rworne · · Score: 1

      That's because they were suspended from a crossbeam cleverly hidden off-camera or masked out in post-production.

      --
      I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
    12. Re:HD by Xabraxas · · Score: 1

      Frankly, hard drives fail so rarely that it's not really a problem in my opinion.

      Hard drives fail all the time. They fail more than any other part on a computer. They are unreliable garbage for the most part.

      If you are so worried about reliability, for $500 you can RAID-mirror two 200GB drives in a notebook and have 6x more storage than this flash drive.

      That really isn't possible with a notebook computer now is it?

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    13. Re:HD by MamiyaOtaru · · Score: 1

      I can't decide whether or not you are making a joke about how hard drives work.

    14. Re:HD by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My laptop hard drive can handle 30MB/s linear writes. In real-world usage, however, head movements mean that I am very, very unlikely to get more than 5-10MB. Don't underestimate the improvement that no-cost seeking could bring.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    15. Re:HD by flappinbooger · · Score: 1

      These laptops can be had with raid...

      http://www.pctorque.com/sager-laptops.php

      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
    16. Re:HD by labreuer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, the number of writes on flash memory tends to be in the millions these days. Combine this with wear levelling and Windows should run just fine on it.

    17. Re:HD by travisco_nabisco · · Score: 1

      I hope that they don't take all moving parts out of the laptop. For one I am a big fan of being able to swing the laptop screen to any angle I want. But more importantly, a keyboard that doesn't have any movement, would be very frustrating to type on, there would be not tactile response that we are all so used to.

    18. Re:HD by finity · · Score: 1

      If you are so worried about reliability, for $500 you can RAID-mirror two 200GB drives in a notebook and have 6x more storage than this flash drive.

      You won't have to pay for a gym membership anymore, either, what with the two hard drives and power adapter you'll have to carry everywhere to use your computer for more than 10 minutes.
    19. Re: HD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...we are still using wheels in our cars...

      As opposed to what?

      Jeez, who mods this stuff? A bunch of idiots? ;-)

    20. Re:HD by no1bassoonist · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? Star Wars is real man!

    21. Re:HD by zuiraM · · Score: 1

      Move to flipchips with eutectic bonding, and get an electrical engineer to handle the electrical engineering rather than just sticking a part in and hoping it will work. Doing a proper power up and power down is trivial, and mechanical shock tolerance can be managed (shock damping, as well as using a less shock-sensitive way to bond the chips). Soldering is best outsourced, unless you're in a company that has proper automation equipment, in which case you should have the expertise inhouse to eliminate these problems during prototyping.

    22. Re:HD by skinfitz · · Score: 1

      Corona Discharge could give you a cushion of air with no moving parts.

    23. Re:HD by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      If you do the math, you get some huge theoretical lifetimes for NAND flash hard drives even with relatively pessimistic assumptions, and the price differential should be negative in five years time.

      So a 32GB NAND flash drive should have a longer life than a hard disk, and be cheaper too, if you can wait for five years.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    24. Re:HD by repvik · · Score: 1
      Actually, the number of writes on flash memory tends to be in the millions these days. Combine this with wear levelling and Windows should run just fine on it.


      Where can I get one of these? Windows doesn't run fine on anything else I have!

    25. Re:HD by evilviper · · Score: 1
      Hard drives fail all the time. They fail more than any other part on a computer.

      Not a chance in hell...

      Either you are buying absolutely top-notch parts for the rest of the system, and dirt cheap hard drives, or your (desktop) case keeps the hard drives in a tiny enclosed space with no airflow. Cheap hard drive caddies and shock-mounted hard drives have that problem, but you very rarely see it in a normal system.

      I lose many power supplies before the first hard drive fails. I lose many more motherboards than hard drives (yes, name-brands with 2+ year warranties like Asus, MSI, etc).
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    26. Re:HD by evilviper · · Score: 1
      You won't have to pay for a gym membership anymore, either, what with the two hard drives and power adapter you'll have to carry everywhere to use your computer for more than 10 minutes.

      Hard drives are a very tiny power drain, and extremely light.

      You wouldn't even NOTICE the difference in all but the most incredibly featherweight and unimaginably power-effecient notebooks.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    27. Re:HD by evilviper · · Score: 1
      What a wonderful life will be when a computer will contain NO MOVABLE mechanical components.

      Why? Hard drives are more reliable than many solid-state items in a computer. Power supplies and motherboards come to mind.

      It can't be the noise. Modern hard drives are damn-near silent... Quiet enough that only those who spend a lot of time selecting near-silent fans can even hear them, and quieting them further is fairly easy...

      This is actually the real bottleneck in modern machines and not processor power as many people think.

      No. You can't just say X is the bottleneck in computers. Sometimes it's the hard drive, sometimes it's the network, sometimes it's the CPU, sometimes it's the memory bandwidth, sometimes it's the GPU, etc.

      And I wouldn't get my hopes up about performance. Even though Flash is solid state, whereas hard drives are not, Flash is still rarely faster than hard drives (throughput), and I certainly wouldn't expect it to be very fast at a price of ~$10/GB.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    28. Re:HD by ncw · · Score: 1

      We had exactly the same problems with CF in our embedded work.

      We managed to solve the powerup/down problems by moving to Industrial CF. These are about twice as expensve as normal CF, but don't blow up on incorrect power down. The datasheet for them guarantees brownout protection.

      We tested that in the lab by powering up and down our test card over 1000 times in a test rig we devised! That same rig would blow up a normal CF in about 20 cycles. And when I say blow up I mean completely and permanently wreck!

      We haven't noticed the mechanical problems with CF but our stuff doesn't get bashed about too much.

      --
      Every man for himself, all in favour say "I"
    29. Re:HD by Shanep · · Score: 1

      If you are so worried about reliability, for $500 you can RAID-mirror two 200GB drives in a notebook and have 6x more storage than this flash drive.

      That really isn't possible with a notebook computer now is it?


      There are a number of laptops around which can take more than one HDD internally.

      --
      War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
    30. Re:HD by Shanep · · Score: 1

      This is actually the real bottleneck in modern machines and not processor power as many people think.

      I didn't realise that there was one real bottleneck. Here I was, all this time, thinking that various parts in a computer system could become a bottleneck, depending on the application.

      --
      War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
    31. Re:HD by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Ohh, you said it now you better run and start doing backups. All your hard drives are doomed to fail in the next week.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    32. Re:HD by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      No, the HD is still the overall bottle neck for a modern computer. Everything else is very application specific for it to be the bottle neck. For general purpose computing the hard drive is the bottle neck.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    33. Re:HD by evilviper · · Score: 1
      No, the HD is still the overall bottle neck for a modern computer.

      No, the CPU is still the overall bottle neck for a modern computer.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    34. Re:HD by Xabraxas · · Score: 1

      These laptops can be had with raid...

      That's not the point. Show me something thin and light with a raid setup. Not everyone wants to lug around a 17 inch widescreen notebook.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    35. Re:HD by Xabraxas · · Score: 1

      Not a chance in hell...

      Either you are buying absolutely top-notch parts for the rest of the system, and dirt cheap hard drives, or your (desktop) case keeps the hard drives in a tiny enclosed space with no airflow. Cheap hard drive caddies and shock-mounted hard drives have that problem, but you very rarely see it in a normal system.

      I lose many power supplies before the first hard drive fails. I lose many more motherboards than hard drives (yes, name-brands with 2+ year warranties like Asus, MSI, etc).

      You must buy really crappy power supplies. Buy something a little more reliable like a PC Power and Cooling power supply. It's not surprising that hard drives fail so often. They consist of thin platters spinning at very high rpm, vulnerable to even one speck of dust. Personally I don't have an issue with either power supplies or hard drives because I generally buy quality parts. OEM machines are a different story and they are much more common than built computers. PC manufacturers usually skimp on both the power supplies and the hard drives. Both fail often in OEM PCs. A few years ago you couldn't get a Gateway that wouldn't have a hard drive failure within the first year.
      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    36. Re:HD by evilviper · · Score: 1
      You must buy really crappy power supplies. Buy something a little more reliable

      I do. The system I'm typing on has an Enermax PSU in it. Still, I don't expect it to last even 2 years. I don't even have a remotely power hungry system...

      No doubt I'm more demanding on computer hardware than most people, but that won't make one component fail more often than another.

      They consist of thin platters spinning at very high rpm,

      Platters really aren't thin. A piece of aluminum as think as most (desktop) hard disk platters would be strong enough to make into a countertop.

      vulnerable to even one speck of dust.

      It should be quite surprising, since there is absolutely no way a speck of dust can get inside a hard drive in the first place (unless you have a strange habbit of opening functioning units). The precision of solid-state computer chips means they're more susceptible to a spec of dust than a hard drive would be.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    37. Re:HD by Xabraxas · · Score: 1

      I do. The system I'm typing on has an Enermax PSU in it. Still, I don't expect it to last even 2 years. I don't even have a remotely power hungry system...

      Well that's your problem. Enermax PSU's aren't as great as you think they are.

      Platters really aren't thin. A piece of aluminum as think as most (desktop) hard disk platters would be strong enough to make into a countertop.

      You obviously have never opened up a notebook hard drive. The platters are paper thin and extremely delicate.

      It should be quite surprising, since there is absolutely no way a speck of dust can get inside a hard drive in the first place (unless you have a strange habbit of opening functioning units). The precision of solid-state computer chips means they're more susceptible to a spec of dust than a hard drive would be.

      I think you're over estimating the quality of mass produced hard drives and underestimating the durability of solid-state computer chips. My flash drive has gone swimming in a lake and still works. In fact the case has since fallen apart and the chips are bare and it still works. That kind of treatment would kill a hard drive pretty quickly.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    38. Re:HD by evilviper · · Score: 1
      You obviously have never opened up a notebook hard drive. The platters are paper thin and extremely delicate.

      I have. They are thin, but certainly nowhere near paper thin. They are decidely rigid.

      My flash drive has gone swimming in a lake and still works. In fact the case has since fallen apart and the chips are bare and it still works. That kind of treatment would kill a hard drive pretty quickly.

      Flash chips can handle certain types of physical abuse better than hard drives, while hard drives can handle others.

      In any case, there's a reason they make the cases for hard drives extremely strong... It won't fall apart as your flash drive did, and should withstand a dip in the lake without error.

      And, HDDs have it all over flash when it comes to electronic abuse.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    39. Re:HD by Xabraxas · · Score: 1

      I have. They are thin, but certainly nowhere near paper thin. They are decidely rigid.

      They most certainly are paper thin. Recently I had to destroy a hard drive for a friend and when I opened the hard drive up I shattered the platter into a million pieces by just pressing on it with my finger.

      Flash chips can handle certain types of physical abuse better than hard drives, while hard drives can handle others.

      Like what? Your previous examples were easily countered by my experience.

      In any case, there's a reason they make the cases for hard drives extremely strong... It won't fall apart as your flash drive did, and should withstand a dip in the lake without error.

      I highly doubt that. The only hard drive that I ever attempted to recover after water damage (flood) was completely toast.

      And, HDDs have it all over flash when it comes to electronic abuse.

      Never. You don't give one good example. All of my examples are from experience.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    40. Re:HD by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      No, the HD is still the overall bottle neck for a modern computer.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  6. The question on every /.er's mind: by Spazntwich · · Score: 2, Funny

    When can we get flash memory for strippers? We're already paying out the ass to see their tits. I'd like to remember the experience a little longer.

    1. Re:The question on every /.er's mind: by geekboybt · · Score: 1

      You know, there is a reason those places are mostly dark. And it's not just because of the looks of the clientèle...

    2. Re:The question on every /.er's mind: by Spazntwich · · Score: 1

      Are you trying to tell me strippers are vampires who would go up in flames were they to be exposed to UV radiation?

      You might be on to something.

    3. Re:The question on every /.er's mind: by ettlz · · Score: 1

      You'll also notice that those places also tend to be lit in lots of blue and a bit of red — my guess is because these are the colours for which our eyes have the lowest resolution. The grandparent notwithstanding, however, the link between strippers and solid-state storage was not the subject of a question on this Slashdotter's mind; nevertheless, I will probably now be plagued by a most obscene image in my head every time I insert a CompactFlash card into my camera.

  7. It's not aimed at price-conscious consumers by PatHMV · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Such a system is obviously not aimed at those for whom price is the main consideration. For those interested in performance, however, an extra $600 may well be worth it. I paid more than that to upgrade my laptop screen to a very high resolution, because it was worth it to me. I could definitely see myself paying an extra $600 for a system with this, though it would also need to have an actual, larger capacity harddrive, too, for my data.

  8. iPod Fanboys Start Talking About This..... by 8127972 · · Score: 2, Funny

    .... Being in the next iPod in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2.....

    --
    This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
    1. Re:iPod Fanboys Start Talking About This..... by 3.14159265 · · Score: 1

      I was thinking... wouldn't it be great to have one of these in an iPod??

  9. Here is a small, clueless suggestion by GreatBunzinni · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Since flash is so great for laptop HDs, why not get a small flash memory card to serve as the HD instead of that whole shebang? For example, why not mount the root and user partition on a small 2GB flash card, which in eBay goes for less than 40$, and then mount the /home partition on a regular HD? Possibly I'm missing something important here but as far as I see it, 40$ are a whole lot less than 500$.

    --
    Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
    1. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by abradsn · · Score: 1

      I think that's the basic idea that windows vista is adopting with using the hybrid drives.

    2. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by everphilski · · Score: 1

      16*40 = $640, more than the $500 32 gig hard drive that is proposed. So your solution is more expensive, per megabyte, on the flash partition. This has been done before (see: the iOpener computer). The reason why a true road warrior would not want to do this is because you are generally using flash in (1) low power and (2) high vibration environments where you don't want a hard drive, period.

    3. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by tgd · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, you're missing something. And yes, $40 is less than $500.

    4. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by tef · · Score: 1

      Umm.. if a 2gb flash drive = $40... that's $20/gb and a 32gb flash hd = $600.. that's $18.75/gb Looks like the price isn't far off from the current costs.

    5. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      A similar concept is on the way: drives with a few gigs of non-volatile flash on top of their usual magnetic medium. But there is a downside: while using flash for a write cache or boot cache or whatever else means lots of good things, it also means most of your data is still on spinning discs. Drop that thing once or twice and the only thing left might be that 2G. This drive will probably find first use in rugged devices, where they've already been looking for various methods of getting laptops that can survive being air dropped while running, etc. They'll be willing to throw down the cash because its one of the few options they have in the area.

      In the consumer area, the price is probably too high currently to justify the benefits of faster shut down and hibernate times (no need to worry about flushing the on disk cache anymore), and lower average power usage (your solution might cut down on time spent with the HDD moving, but this one cuts the moving parts out entirely). I'd imagine in four years you'll be able to afford it. That should be long enough that drive capacity catches up, read/write speeds improve (I doubt they'll catch up), and the necessary manufacturing capacity increases to come online.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    6. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by archen · · Score: 1

      because var and swap will destroy a CF card? The idea behind using a CF card is to save power, when you are still using a HD you are using MORE power (HD + CF). You could use a CF card and run var/swap off of a memory filesystem via PCMCIA adapter, but you've been able to do that for years.

    7. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by Intron · · Score: 1

      Flash filesystems avoid writes to reduce wear on the flash, so there should be more dirty data in memory at shutdown time, not less. And since writing to flash is slower than writing to disk, hibernate should take longer.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    8. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by businessnerd · · Score: 1

      If we're talking the security of your data, and if we are also talking about having both a built in flash drive and a standard spinning hard drive, then I'd rather put the OS on the spinner and put my valuable data on the flasher. The OS is easy to restore. The OS is generally unchanging from when you first set it up, and if you require a highly customized OS setup, you can always take a once time backup image once you get it just the way you want it. You're valuable data, on the other hand, isn't so easy to restore unless you have been making backups. Making frequent backups also becomes more difficult on a laptop, where the machine may be disconnected from its backup storage for extended periods of time.

      Ideally, though, going all flash is the way to go. It's expensive now, but the price will come down. It always does. And the fewer moving parts directly affecting your data on a machine that is very prone to bumps and falls the better.

      --
      "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
    9. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by llZENll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even if it were cost feasible your drive would die in a matter of months or years because flash, especially cheap flash has a limited number of write and read cycles, very small actually, 1000-10000 on some. If windows is churning at your swap file it would only take a day or so to do that many writes. Also the bandwidth of normal cheap flash drives is pretty crappy. The SSDs have special write algorithms in them which spread the writes out around the disk evenly, this extends the life of the memory gates much beyond normal flash memory.

    10. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      It's doable, and there's even a product to enable it:

      http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_read er/ad44midecf.asp

      I picked up a 4GB CF card a while back to do backups on (both a 20GB and 30GB HD started erroring out in my pen slate due to excess heat, so I'm back to the original 4GB HD) and intend to try this out as well.

      Downside is that apparently having swap space on the card will exceed its read / write cycle capacity fairly quickly (anyone know what the symptoms of that are? Or if there's a way to check on the remaining lifetime?)

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    11. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by Dan+Ost · · Score: 1

      Unless you have crazy memory needs, you can generally do away with swap entirely once you have 1G+ RAM. At least that's my experience, YMMV.

      What is /var used for nowadays? Do we still need it or is it merely an historical hold-over (like an appendix)?

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    12. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      Probably because it is much harder to do the equivalent on Windows as Windows like drives to be nicely labeled C:, D: etc., and every damn app wants to install on C:.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    13. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by kruhft · · Score: 1

      Since flash is so great for laptop HDs, why not get a small flash memory card to serve as the HD instead of that whole shebang? For example, why not mount the root and user partition on a small 2GB flash card,


      I managed to get this type of setup working on my laptop a year or two ago using a 1G flash card and a PCMCIA adapter and it wasn't terribly difficult. The laptop was for audio work and performance, and the noise from the seeks on my harddrive tended to be a bit loud when amplified by a club theater system, so I figured this would solve some of the problem. The only real pain was the ancient PCMCIA IDE driver (marked obsolete even then) which required some of the pcmcia-utils, which I had to bundle into an initrd so the root device could be present for mounting after the kernel was booted (no autodetection by the kernel, which is one of the big problems I have with userspace driver helpers).

      After I managed to get it working I contacted a magazine (Linux Journal maybe?) about writing an article on how I did it, and the response was 'Why would anybody want to do that?'. I guess I was just a couple of years too early...again...
    14. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but why bother flushing anything to disk? If the write cache is permenent and the logic is stored on the controller not PC software, I contend that while you should definately worry about what happens at shutdown, it may not be necessary to wait. This logc stands for supend to RAM, however I do stand corrected on suspend to disk (hibernate).

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    15. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by Enrique1218 · · Score: 1

      That what I am thinking. If not use the drive outright to boot the OS, then notebook manufacturers should use it as a built-in backup device. Instead of relying on a backup CD, just use the flash drive and a special utililty to restore the system and crucial data.

      --
      You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
    16. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      What is /var used for nowadays? According to man hier, it is used to 'multi-purpose log, temporary, transient, and spool files.' Some examples of things you might find in /var:
      • Mail spools.
      • Print spools.
      • PIDs of running daemons (so you can do something like kill `cat $PIDFILE` in your shutdown script.
      • System logs
      Basically, /var is for anything that is frequently modified. Some things in there are deleted at boot / shutdown time, some are not. Typically, /var is not backed up, since it changes too quickly. It is a good candidate for a filesystem like LFS.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    17. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Back in the DOS days, you could use the JOIN utility to map a drive to folder. I don't have a Windows box handy to check, but if this still exists then there's no reason you couldn't put Program Files and Documents and Settings on separate drives / partitions and have them 'mounted' using join.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    18. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by max99ted · · Score: 1

      There is a freeware tool available to do this - Junction Link Magic

      --

      Please stop APK.. you're only hurting yourself.

    19. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by macDaddy21 · · Score: 1

      Yes, you can do this using the disk management control panel. Not well known is that with NTFS, disk drive letters were supposed to be phased out. This never happened (you don't need to assign a letter to a volume to use it in software, just mount it like on unix, and use system calls with the path to get to a file) - because support software (e.g. database software like Oracle) never really supported it and developers and their tools never really used the mount volume feature.

    20. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by dabraun · · Score: 1

      Are you living in 1980? I don't even know when the last time I saw a windows app that would *only* install to drive C: was. In fact, I don't know when the last time I saw an app that even chose c: by default was - apps chose the system drive by default, whatever letter that happens to be. Since 99% of apps are using one of about 5 different setup wrappers they all get this behavior for free.

      Furthermore, it is trivial to open up disk management and map a partition to a path within another partition's namespace (i.e. mount your second drive or partition to c:\mydata.) This happens at a level where no app that isn't explicitly digging for raw disk structure information can tell the difference. (though some poorly written apps may check the freespace at "c:\" before writing data to "c:\mydata" and therefore get the wrong result)

    21. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by dabraun · · Score: 1

      If nothing else, swap allows for a rapid transition to hybrid sleep in Vista.

      Since most user-data pages have already been written to the swapfile very little needs to be written to the hiberfile to guarantee successful (even if slow) recovery in the case of unexpected power loss during sleep mode.

    22. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      None of this is as easy on linux, where you can mandate that all programs go to a particular drive, and you don't have to worry about poorly written apps.

      Yes...most installs default to the system drive. That's exactly the problem. If you want your apps to be one a driver other than the boot drive, you've got to manually tell all installs to put them there. (And I think you minimize the "poorly written app" thing. The nice thing about the Unix model is that it's utterly transparent.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    23. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by evilviper · · Score: 1
      Yes...most installs default to the system drive. That's exactly the problem. If you want your apps to be one a driver other than the boot drive, you've got to manually tell all installs to put them there.

      No, what you have to do is change the %ProgramFiles% path, either in the System control panel, or in the registry. Then damn near everything will default to that install path.

      I've been doing that since NT4 first came out (boot partitions were effectively limited to 2GBs).
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    24. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by evilviper · · Score: 1
      For example, why not mount the root and user partition on a small 2GB flash card, which in eBay goes for less than 40$, and then mount the /home partition on a regular HD?

      Because you still have the hard drive in there?

      I'm not sure you'd get any power advantage out of it. Sure, your programs would be on the CF card, but every time Firefox launches, it will need to read a couple MBs of configuration information, and possibly 50MBs of cache from your hard drive. Even trivial applications like aumix will be hitting your hard drive, checking $HOME to see if there is a config file.

      Since it's probably the number of hits to the hard drive, requiring it to spin-up again, that uses the most power, I'm not sure your configuration will reduce power consumption at all...

      Add to that the CF card using power as well, and your configuration may use up more power than just a hard drive. And with all your important data on the hard drive, you don't get any more reliability either.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    25. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by GreatBunzinni · · Score: 1
      Even if it were cost feasible your drive would die in a matter of months or years because flash, especially cheap flash has a limited number of write and read cycles, very small actually, 1000-10000 on some.

      The example I quoted above was to use the flash drives at mount points where the write operations are rare but read operations can be intensive, like a great part of the root directory except /tmp, /home, /var and possibly a couple of others. As you stated, using a flash drive to store swap files (much like windows vista does with it's ReadyBoost (R) technology) is a retarded idea which only ends up killing the drive. So why not use a small, regular, off the shelf, inexpensive flash card as a flash drive along a regular HD instead of shelving 600$ for a tiny, wear-vulnerable drive which may even suffer from a short life span? Moreover, why not develop a ATA/SATA/PATA/SCI flash card reader which not only can hold multiple flash cards but also use them in any RAID level combination the user whishes?

      --
      Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
    26. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by llZENll · · Score: 1

      Yeah I know, you think someone would have come out with that by now, especially considering how awesome a flash disk system would be for enterprise servers where IOPS is everything, and money is tossed around. Its far too late now though, by the time anything is out, SSDs will far out perform them, be cheaper, and much easier to manage than a cluster of flash devices.

    27. Re:Here is a small, clueless suggestion by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Canon's LIDE scanners will only install their software/drivers to internal hard drives. I use an external firewire drive as my primary drive on my notebook (7500 vs. 4200rpm) and I ended up having to return the scanner, which sucked, because the next cheapest scanner at Fry's is $150, while the LIDE is $40-60, depending on wether or not you go with USB 1 or 2.0

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
  10. Effect on Battery life? by LehiNephi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Any modern CPU is fast enough for me these days, and I don't need a real big screen on a laptop. What I want is good, solid construction, and long battery life. How much of a laptop's power use is due to the hard drive? And how much of that is saved by using a flash-based disk?

    Speaking of which, can someone show me how power consumption is divided among the parts of a laptop (CPU, chipset, wireless, drives, graphics card if applicable, LCD, backlight, etc)?

    --
    Help find a cure for cancer. Join the [H]orde
    1. Re:Effect on Battery life? by Slightly+Askew · · Score: 1

      Google is your friend (and so are college students!)

      Laptop battery usage report

      --
      Public use of any portable music system is a virtually guaranteed indicator of sociopathic tendencies. -- Zoso
    2. Re:Effect on Battery life? by imsabbel · · Score: 5, Informative

      The power distribution in a modern notebook is EXTREMELY dependent on usage and the special model you look at.

      Averaged, the biggest power-draw of a modern notebook is the display, followed by the cpu. (this may of course vary if the notebook has a very small display. With equal brightness, power-draw of course increases with display size, until it dominates everything else with those 17" 200cm/m^2 display). After that is chipset and GPU (of course depending on with model you use).

      2.5" HDs are actually not very power-hungry. Typical power-draw figures are 5W during spinup, and about 2W while in use (dropping to 0.5W or so during spindown).

      The FLASH drive mentioned draws about 0.6W in use, so in average you might gain 1.5W thats about 3-5% of the average power-draw of a modern notebook, and should give you about 10-15 minutes or so more.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    3. Re:Effect on Battery life? by jrwr00 · · Score: 1

      thats 15 mins more of counter-strike tho!

    4. Re:Effect on Battery life? by Phu5ion · · Score: 1
      And how much of that is saved by using a flash-based disk?

      I think this is the same one they are talking about.

      http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/09/20/conventiona l_hard_drive_obsoletism/page5.html
      --
      Slashdot is kind of like Playboy; we aren't here to read the articles.
    5. Re:Effect on Battery life? by repvik · · Score: 1

      2.5" HDs are actually not very power-hungry. Typical power-draw figures are 5W during spinup, and about 2W while in use (dropping to 0.5W or so during spindown).
      Actually, they aren't that powerhungry. Most of the 2.5" HDs are capable of being powered by the USB-port, which gives them a grand total of 0.5A at 5V, ie 2.5W. The highest peaks are usually on spinning up, with power usage when in use a bit lower than that.

      I do have a couple of 0.7A@5V drives too, but that still doesn't add up to 5W. So I'd say your powersaving-estimate would be a bit high ;-)

  11. Cringley's metal film disks by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Where's cringley's metal film disks? He said they were going to be in produciton soon and would cost less, use less power and have lower latency to flash even when spun down. They also work at elevated temperatures (suited for cars and embeddeds) and are insanley shock resistant. They could even be spun up to 30,000 rpms making them have higher data rates and lower latency. And they were lower profile than conventional disks. They sound a lot better than these flash compromises since there's no compromise. It's just an ultra-low power hard disk.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Cringley's metal film disks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The downside of his metal film disks is that they're powered exclusively by hype.

      Do you really trust the guy who falsely claimed to have a Stanford PhD?

    2. Re:Cringley's metal film disks by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      Please forget them. They are shit, will never work, and every argument he made in his blog-post was unscientific bullshit aimed into collecting disposable venture capital.

      If the product will ever be released (i dont think so), it will be at a point of time when the stated specs (if reached at all) will be laughably outdated. And even then its much likely to be another click-of-death fiasco, because the whole technology is DOA.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    3. Re:Cringley's metal film disks by thepotoo · · Score: 1

      At the moment they are partying with Duke Nukem.

      --
      Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
    4. Re:Cringley's metal film disks by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      More importantly, where is the code in OS X written by Apple (not Parallels) to natively run Windows XP applications without emulation? I mean, he did predict that a year ago, I think. Around the time of MacWorld 06, IIRC.

  12. Limited write cycles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Doesn't flash memory have a limitation on the number of writes
    that can be done before the memory becomes unable to store data?

    I acknowledge my familiarity with flash memory is at best cursory.

    1. Re:Limited write cycles? by Undertaker43017 · · Score: 1

      I have read this as well, and was my first reaction when I read this. I heard this is a particular problem with FAT file systems, since every file write requires a master record update, which causes that place on the flash to "wear out".

    2. Re:Limited write cycles? by ScriptMonkey · · Score: 0

      The manufacturer rates the mean time between failure (MTBF) at 2 million hours (or about 220 years), which seems pretty darn good. This drive presumably uses a wear leveling scheme to evenly spread writes over different erase blocks, which dramatically decreases a flash device's MTBF.

    3. Re:Limited write cycles? by jrwr00 · · Score: 1

      well, sandisk could make a new file system, and add the drivers to winblows, (better make is OSS or linux geeks will go nuts)

    4. Re:Limited write cycles? by bigredradio · · Score: 1

      This seems really good when you consider a typical disk drive has a life of about 2 years. :-(

    5. Re:Limited write cycles? by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      no offense, but do you really expect sandisk to create a new filesystem for windows and have it not suck?

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

  13. Who ever mind? by michelcultivo · · Score: 1

    Who ever mind this flash device when it only can carry 32GB if today we have notebooks that has 160GB.

    1. Re:Who ever mind? by D4rk+Fx · · Score: 1

      This Flash disk is a 1.8" form factor device. Toshiba just recently announced a 100GB Version that was slated to be out this month some time. Currently the largest Hard Disk in 1.8" form factor is only 80GB. This drive is not that much smaller in capacity, and has enormous advantages in seek time performance.

  14. nomenclature by tonigonenstein · · Score: 5, Informative

    Can you stop calling them "flash hard drives"? They are precisely not hard drives, but flash drives. It is like saying "liquid crystal cathode ray tube" or "electric internal combustion engine".

    --
    The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up.
    1. Re:nomenclature by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can you stop calling them "flash hard drives"? They are precisely not hard drives, but flash drives. It is like saying "liquid crystal cathode ray tube" or "electric internal combustion engine". What's wrong with flash hard drives? They're flash, they're hard (I've yet to see a flash drive that was spongy), and they're drives. This is nothing like your other two examples because this one is still accurate. Now, if they'd called them "flash hard disks" or "flash magnetic disk" or something ridiculous you'd have a point. As it is, flash hard drive is both accurate and useful since by using the same terminology as current hard drives makes it easier for the average user to get their head around it's purpose.
      --
      Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    2. Re:nomenclature by LMacG · · Score: 1

      I'm having a little trouble with "drive" for something that doesn't move at all. Let's fall back to old-school IBM nomenclature and call them Flash DASD.

      --
      Slightly disreputable, albeit gregarious
    3. Re:nomenclature by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Actually, shouldn't it be something like "Flash RAM"? A drive refers to a moving part, while the storage is, well, random access memory. I know it would confuse the hell out of the poor bastards who buy computers at Wal-Mart (PIII with 50 GB of RAM!!! Only 99.99!!!), but it seems to me that that would be the most accurate name...

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    4. Re:nomenclature by geoffspear · · Score: 1

      Sure, and I've known people who called 3.5" floppies "hard disks" too, because they're hard and they're disks. That doesn't mean those people weren't idiots.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    5. Re:nomenclature by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      Now, if they'd called them "flash hard disks" or "flash magnetic disk" or something ridiculous you'd have a point.

      The correct term of art is SSD - solid state disk.

    6. Re:nomenclature by geoffspear · · Score: 1

      I prefer "PAM" because they're really only pseudorandom.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    7. Re:nomenclature by DragonWriter · · Score: 1
      Sure, and I've known people who called 3.5" floppies "hard disks" too, because they're hard and they're disks.


      The hard part of a 3.5" floppy is not a disk, the part that is a disk is not hard.
    8. Re:nomenclature by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 1

      The disks themselves aren't hard (hence "floppy"). More importantly though is that "hard drive" has a specific purpose terminology-wise that a floppy disk doesn't fulfill, but this current technology does. I'd rather have a slightly dubious name for this technology that didn't require me to explain to everyone what it does and that just might help the uptake of these things. This has been a long time coming and if a practical flash-based alternative to traditional HDDs is in sight then I'll gladly call them "iPokemo-flash" if that's what it takes to get these things mass market acceptance (and lower prices) quickly.

      --
      Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    9. Re:nomenclature by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 1

      I would've said SSD stood for Solid State Drive. Either is acceptable I guess.

      In that case I'll allow "flash hard disks" too. But still, I'm holding firm on the "magnetic" part - we've got to have some boundaries. Until MRAM drives come along...

      --
      Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    10. Re:nomenclature by itomato · · Score: 1

      How about "Memory Bank".

      Solid State could be optional.

      I've been waiting a long time to be able to say "memory bank" in a monotone voice and be taken seriously. Now's my chance!

    11. Re:nomenclature by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Hey, I have a "liquid crystal plasma cathode ray tube electroluminescent" computer display and it looks great! You wouldn't know it because it looks just like a CRT monitor, but it costed far more.

    12. Re:nomenclature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next time read BOTH of the sentences in a two sentence post.

    13. Re:nomenclature by SpeedBump0619 · · Score: 1

      Funny thing about English: It isn't a dead language. Word usage and meaning creeps around every day. While the term "hard disk" was originally used to describe the hard platters that data was stored on the term "drive" was used because the hard or floppy disk drive was just that...the device that pushes (drives) the disk(s) around so the read heads could search them.

      By your argument none of the words in "hard disk drive" apply to a device that uses NAND memory to store data. There's no hard (or soft) disks, and there's no motor required to drive those non-existant disks around. When I talk about the hard drive on your computer I mean the hard *mounted* (not easilly removable) storage device on your computer. When I say flash drive I'm talking about that thing sticking out of your USB plug. I don't know when the transition happened, but a hard drive (to me at least) has almost no relation to the technology used. I suspect most people agree with me.

    14. Re:nomenclature by joe_bruin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Modern NAND flash is in fact not much more of a random access storage device than a hard drive. This is different from NOR flash, which is typically directly addressable like RAM (and much more expensive than NAND flash). These devices can only be accessed as block devices at the chip level. You certainly can't write to just one address, you need to erase the block and then serially feed in all the bytes to it. To read, you can address individual blocks and read their entire content. Further complicating it is that these high density multi-level flash chips are much more error-prone and require error correcting data to be stored. This precludes them being used as true random access devices.

  15. We won't be getting rid of mechanical parts... by Rix · · Score: 1

    So long as we need fans to manage temperature. Those are much, much cheaper to replace, though.

    1. Re:We won't be getting rid of mechanical parts... by BluhDeBluh · · Score: 1

      Not all computers have fans... there's loads of examples of passively cooled computers

    2. Re:We won't be getting rid of mechanical parts... by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 1

      Did you miss this article?

      Ionic Cooling For Your Computer

    3. Re:We won't be getting rid of mechanical parts... by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      I priced how much it costs to put a new fan in my G4 powerbook (2001 model)... I now run a $25 Targus laptop cooler with 2x 60mm fans. The internal fan has come on 2-3 times in the last 3 years, and only the fan in "slow" mode. So techincally my computer could run without any moving parts, just so long as I have an external cooling device, or I happen to be outside (plenty of air flow there).

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
  16. Is the limited write still a conern? by the_humeister · · Score: 1

    I have a 7 year-old laptop with a similarly aged drive and the whole thing still works. Will the flash drive last that long given normal to heavy usage?

    1. Re:Is the limited write still a conern? by Intron · · Score: 1

      Heavy I/O = writing 100 blocks/sec * 512 bytes * 7 years * 365.25 days * 24 hours * 3600 seconds / 32e9 = 353 complete writes (assuming load leveling). Allowed number of writes = 100,000 or 1,000,000 so I think you are safe.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  17. Any mention of performance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't SSD drives smoke the pants off of conventional hard drives? Does anyone have details?

    1. Re:Any mention of performance? by djh101010 · · Score: 1

      Don't SSD drives smoke the pants off of conventional hard drives? Does anyone have details?

      Oddly enough, TFA addresses this, and even gives details, yes.

    2. Re:Any mention of performance? by smoker2 · · Score: 1
      Where does it address this ?
      Where it says this ?
      Flash also can retrieve data faster. In its own tests, SanDisk says its flash drive can boot up Windows Vista -- the next version of the Windows operating system -- in 35 seconds, 28 seconds faster than the 55-second boot-up time required with a conventional drive.
      Dodgy maths aside, I don't think that's a very technical report. Maybe YOU ought to RTFA !
    3. Re:Any mention of performance? by djh101010 · · Score: 1

      The AC didn't ask what specific numbers were or the methodology involved, he asked "Any mention of performance". So, um, yeah, I _did_ read TFA, and the post I answered as well. And, far as that goes, yeah they missed 2 seconds somewhere, but it's a reasonable benchmark, one that the likely audience can relate to. I mean, _I_ won't be booting Vista any time soon if ever, but it does tell me about overall performace with a large collection of random files.

  18. Top 10 Data Loss Disasters by mandelbr0t · · Score: 1

    I can't imagine my laptop being the only source of my "valuable data". Admittedly, it's a bit of work, but I'm constantly synchronizing files back and forth between desktop and laptop. So I did a quick Google search to see how many cases of laptops containing valuable data there were. This article has some fun anecdotes about dropping laptops.

    Seriously, though, there's some kind of marketing idea that dropping laptops is a huge problem. Apple's solution was one of the biggest gimmicks I've ever heard of. Do people constantly drop their cell phones, Blackberrys, PDAs, etc.? Do they not back up the "valuable data" to another location in case it's stolen?

    I'm not going to pay an extra $600 simply for the extra reliability. Surely there's better advantages to publicize?

    mandelbr0t

    --
    "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
    1. Re:Top 10 Data Loss Disasters by NineNine · · Score: 1

      I'm starting to buy these things for my business desktops. There's nothing more frustating and time consuming then when a hard drive fails.

    2. Re:Top 10 Data Loss Disasters by crayiii · · Score: 1

      It only has to happen to you once to suck big time...

    3. Re:Top 10 Data Loss Disasters by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      At the university here I've already seen several pleas posted on leaflets all over the campus from people whose laptop got stolen at the end of their PhD, which left them with all data lost. You just don't want that to happen. Why you would want to carry around the only copies of all your work in one bag is another question. The group where I'm in luckily specifically forbids you to put your work outside the disks that are in the thorough automated backup mechanism: a snapshot for each of the four last months, for each of the days in the last week, and for several hours of the last day. These backups are in one place I guess, so making even extra copies on cd might also be a good idea.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    4. Re:Top 10 Data Loss Disasters by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Seriously, though, there's some kind of marketing idea that dropping laptops is a huge problem.

      That's because it *is*.

      Apple's solution was one of the biggest gimmicks I've ever heard of.

      It's an excellent idea. I've already witnessed it save my GF's MacBook Pro from damage twice and she's only owned the thing for 2 - 3 weeks (admittedly she's on a clumsier end of the scale, but still...).

      Do people constantly drop their cell phones, Blackberrys, PDAs, etc.?

      Yes. They also leave them in taxis, in hotel rooms, on restaurant tables, put them through the wash in their pants, etc, etc.

      Do they not back up the "valuable data" to another location in case it's stolen?

      No.

      In fact, it's amazing how many people who say "my life is on this device" are incredibly cavalier with its safety and security, considering they frequently haven't got a copy of the data on it anywhere else. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the productivity losses from PDAs and phones "going missing" or being damaged, resulting in 100% loss of the data on them noticably exceed the productivity gains resulting in their users having them in the first place.

  19. where's the stats? by ILuvRamen · · Score: 1

    They don't have a single actual read/write speed rating given in the whole article and you know what that means. It's not as fast as they say cuz they tested it in unfair circumstances or something. But still, it'd be sweet to have a solid state hard drive, especially in iPods since they break A LOT with their current storage technology.

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
  20. Nah... Sansa... by NineNine · · Score: 1

    I'm listening to a Sansa right now with 8 GB flash. These things are great. As far as I'm concerned, they ARE the "ipod killer". I actually got a 2 GB iPod Nano for XMas, but my GF said that it was so pathetic, she went out and bought me a top of the line Sansa (cheaper, too).

    1. Re:Nah... Sansa... by mpathetiq · · Score: 1

      You got an 8G Sansa for cheaper than a 2G nano? How how how?

    2. Re:Nah... Sansa... by OECD · · Score: 5, Funny

      You got a GF? How how how?

      --
      One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
  21. $600 for 60GB is a bargain by BenJeremy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why all the complaints about the price? This is about more than security, too... it's about power consumption and speed, too.

    My thoughts?

    Price:

    $10/GB is not out of scale with current flash pricing, but nonetheless, the pricing will continue to fall. Initial release of "new" technologies like this inevitably start off pricey, usually dipping 50% after a year. I see this type of product falling even faster.

    Advantages:

    Forget security. The name of the game is power consumption. Hard drives (and DVD-ROM drives, too) suck a LOT of power on a laptop. Flash-based HDDs should offer a considerable improvement in battery life, and for many people, this is the "killer app" that will move this product from bleeding edge to consumer-level.

    1. Re:$600 for 60GB is a bargain by evilviper · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hard drives (and DVD-ROM drives, too) suck a LOT of power on a laptop.

      No. No they don't.

      Your backlight sucks a lot of power. Your hard drive is a barely noticable load next to the display. Your hard drive is probably near the bottom of power consumption for the whole system.

      (Note all the portable MP3 players with 1.8" HDDs, that last 30+ hours on one tiny battery.)

      Performance and reliability are the reasons to consider flash based storage in notebooks, NOT battery life.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  22. Yup by zlogic · · Score: 1

    Yup, I had a simular idea in mind - buying a Cardbus/CompactFlash adapter (cause CF cards are the cheapest) and plugging it in the Cardbus slot (that's not used anyway). After that I'd leave about 10% space for backups and use the rest for ReadyBoost (which seems to be intelligent enough to cache stuff).

    1. Re:Yup by ZenShadow · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't recommend this; CardBus is painfully slow. Get a laptop with a built-in reader, and you'll be much better off (and yes, this is from experience, at least on HP laptops).

      With the newer Express spec, you might get better performance -- but I couldn't find an ExpressCard CF adapter when I looked.

      --S

      --
      -- sigs cause cancer.
  23. Someone fails at math.. by D4rk+Fx · · Score: 1
    In its own tests, SanDisk says its flash drive can boot up Windows Vista -- the next version of the Windows operating system -- in 35 seconds, 28 seconds faster than the 55-second boot-up time required with a conventional drive.
    55 - 35 = .... 28? What the hell?
    1. Re:Someone fails at math.. by tpjunkie · · Score: 1

      In its own tests, ....

      The lesson here is take any company's product description (especially before its released) with a grain of salt.

    2. Re:Someone fails at math.. by CCFreak2K · · Score: 1

      Not familiar with new style math?

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
  24. Power? Nah by NineNine · · Score: 1

    Nah, I don't think it'll be power. Honestly, where do you go in the modern world that doesn't have power? In fact, when I get a new laptop, the first thing that I do is get rid of the battery. They're heavy, hot, and they're rarely useful.

    I'm buying flash drives for reliability in my business computers.

  25. flash memory limited rewrites by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    Flash memory has (depending on which technology) a limited life of 10^5 or 10^6 write operations. Now imagine your swap space being on flash.

    Get used to the notion that this will mean you have to buy a new drive as these wear out now too. and older drives will start developing mysterious read errors, so will also need additional space-consuming data-redundancy for an error recovery strategy.

    1. Re:flash memory limited rewrites by greg1104 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Flash memory has (depending on which technology) a limited life of 10^5 or 10^6 write operations...Get used to the notion that this will mean you have to buy a new drive as these wear out now too. and older drives will start developing mysterious read errors, so will also need additional space-consuming data-redundancy for an error recovery strategy.

      The kind of flash controllers used for designs like these are built with wear levelling approaches that manages this problem at a level below where the operating system will see errors. I wouldn't want to run a database server that's being written to all the time on one of them, but for normal notebook computer use 10^6 writes on every block should last several years.

      Now imagine your swap space being on flash.

      Why would you possibly do that? Add more (cheap!) physical RAM instead until there's no need to swap.

    2. Re:flash memory limited rewrites by timeOday · · Score: 1

      So don't use swap.  It's pointless, especially in a system with a flash drive, where the mass storage isn't much cheaper than the RAM.  Here's my laptop memory right now, with about 20 applications running on XP under VMWare, RAM-wasting Netbeans (java), 20 tabs open in Firefox, etc:

                   total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
      Mem:       2074016    1934168     139848          0      21564    1292736
      -/+ buffers/cache:     619868    1454148
      Swap:            0          0          0

    3. Re:flash memory limited rewrites by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Disks still get a hammering for other reasons. Imagine a database server.

      Also Windows does all sorts of crap even when its just sat there and not running any user-apps.

      Its very scary to run a registry monitor tool and see all the registry writes going on even when there's nothing (other than the OS) running. No wonder windows is slow.

    4. Re:flash memory limited rewrites by profplump · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even with gigs of RAM it's still useful to have some swap space. You won't use it all the time, but it's still handy to have.

      The obvious example is transient large memory use. I've got all my usual apps open. Now I want to play WoW on my lunch break. Rather than quitting everything I can just let the system swap out my apps when WoW loads and swap them back in when I quit. Maybe your laptop holds enough RAM that you don't care, but mine only holds 2 GB, and I can easily use more than that, particularly when you throw something like WoW into the mix.

      I'd also consider things like an automounter -- in my use, the automounter gets called maybe 2 times a day, but it has to be running all the time to be effective. I'd rather wait for it to swap-in and run than have it taking up real memory on my system all day long. Sure, the automounter by itself isn't big, but combined with the other 25 trivial programs that are always running you can see non-trivial memory savings.

    5. Re:flash memory limited rewrites by macemoneta · · Score: 1

      Well, if you're running Linux, set swappiness to less than 10 (even 0). The system will swap if it absolutely has to, but it will try very hard to avoid it. For example:

      echo "5" > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness

      This will avoid writing to the flash swap area unless the system is very low on available RAM. In most cases, the swap area will never be touched.

      --

      Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.

    6. Re:flash memory limited rewrites by profplump · · Score: 1

      Or grab something like this patch: http://kerneltrap.org/node/1051 to do it automatically.

      That way you programs can easily swap if you run low on active memory, but the cache won't pressure you into swapping even if you untar a 2 GB file.

    7. Re:flash memory limited rewrites by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 1

      Why would you possibly do that? Add more (cheap!) physical RAM instead until there's no need to swap. Well, if you have a Mac you can't add more cheap physical RAM. Every Mac except the Mac Pro has two SODIMM slots, that is all. For reference, a 2GB SODIMM costs about $750US now, so the flash disk doesn't look so bad anymore. Of course I would rather add four 1GB DIMMs at 1/4th the cost, but adding memory cheaply is a privilege that only >$200 PC owners have.

      That said, using a flash disk for swap really doesn't help, since write performance of flash is so awful to begin with.
  26. What about lifespan? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

    Conventional wisdom / rumor is that these non-volatile memories have a limited number of write cycles before they fail. I still haven't heard anyone explain why that wouldn't be a problem for these drives. Anyone?

    1. Re:What about lifespan? by mean+pun · · Score: 2, Informative
      Conventional wisdom / rumor is that these non-volatile memories have a limited number of write cycles before they fail. I still haven't heard anyone explain why that wouldn't be a problem for these drives. Anyone?

      A mixture of:

      • Because the limit is actually fairly high.
      • Because wear leveling over such a large number of bits makes the problem less serious.
      • Because in practice many people don't actually write that much to a disk.
      • Because if you buy one of these things you accept that as part of the trade-off.
    2. Re:What about lifespan? by IMustBeNewHere · · Score: 1

      Ok, I'll give it a try.

      These drives will probably use wear levelling. That means that (ideally) all sectors on the drive must be written to once, before any sector is written to a second time - and so on.

      So, with 2 million writes per sector, you have to write 3200 MB * 2E6 = 6.4E9 MB before the drive fails.

      If the average write speed over a 24h period is, say, 1 MB/s the drive will fail in 6.4E9 seconds, or about 200 years. Still, I don't think you will want to put your swap partition on one of these ...

    3. Re:What about lifespan? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1
      So, with 2 million writes per sector, you have to write 3200 MB * 2E6 = 6.4E9 MB before the drive fails.

      Actually I don't think your statistical reasoning is quite right here. Here's why:

      • You're assuming that all sectors will fail after the same number of write (2,000,000). So in your model, the drive entirely works, and then at a certain point the sector writes start failing one after another until the drive is toast.

      • Suppose each sector has some number of writes after which it will fail, and you know the writes-until-failure number for each sector. Then what we'll see isn't the entire drive working, and then the entire drive failing. Instead we'll see the number of usable sectors in the drive decay as more writes occur. It may be something like an exponential decay, since having fewer sectors over which to perform wear leveling will lead to each of the remaining sectors getting written to more often.

    4. Re:What about lifespan? by Knara · · Score: 1

      Even if the lifespan is 10x less than the thought experiment suggests, that's still about 3-4x the warranty length of today's consumer level hard drives.

    5. Re:What about lifespan? by Knara · · Score: 1

      er, make that 20x (I was shooting for 10 years, as warranties for consumer-grade hdds are 2-3 years last I looked)

    6. Re:What about lifespan? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1
      Even if the lifespan is 10x less than the thought experiment suggests, that's still about 3-4x the warranty length of today's consumer level hard drives.

      I would agree, but I'm not sure you see a point I'm making. I don't think it makes sense to talk about a drive having a single, specific "lifetime". If I'm right that the number of usable sectors will gradually (but with increasing speed) decrease over time, then we shouldn't talk about a drive's "lifetime". Instead we should maybe talk about things like, "How long until at 20% of the sectors have failed?".

    7. Re:What about lifespan? by Knara · · Score: 1

      I dunno, I think its only slightly less appropriate than trying to gauge the probability of a platter starting to get "bad" sectors. My thought on this, too, is that the manufacturers aren't totally ignorant on this issue, so there must be some sort of thought process going on that will prevent them from getting a word of mouth that says "this product sucks!" I am perhaps too idealistic.

    8. Re:What about lifespan? by ZenShadow · · Score: 1

      Like hard drives, most high-quality SSD's have spare sectors that the controllers will swap in if a bit goes out to lunch.

      --S

      --
      -- sigs cause cancer.
    9. Re:What about lifespan? by Heembo · · Score: 1

      ZenShadow: I'm still haunting you from that earlier MySpace thread. Here is a little more evidence: http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/0,1540,2084131 ,00.asp
      I'm not trying to lie to you, only show you the true path, that .NET does not scale well and MySpace is looking at alternatives.
      Welcome to my foe list, how DARE you doubt me!

      --
      Horns are really just a broken halo.
    10. Re:What about lifespan? by ZenShadow · · Score: 1

      Yes, .NET doesn't scale well because SQL server has issues. Sorry, try again. Architecture issues are not the same as a platform defficiency.

      You have way too much time on your hands if this conversation is still bothering you. Besides, ranting at me won't change the reality of the situation.

      --S

      --
      -- sigs cause cancer.
  27. IDE by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Why does this use IDE at a time when IDE ports are staring to goway?

    1. Re:IDE by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      Because almost everyone still uses IDE..

  28. electronic internal combustion engines are called by 1800maxim · · Score: 1

    Hybrids ;)

    or, combustion engines are electronically controlled... which is true of modern engines, as they're controlled via ECM (throttle-by-wire).

  29. Big deal -- you too can boot off flash! by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

    If anyone cares to google for "compact flash ide" you see a number of devices $20 that will allow you to use a compact flash card as an IDE hard disk. (desktop or laptop)

    You can get an 8G compact flash card for about $160. Sure it isn't 32G, but it is enough to put a full install (Windows or Linux) and have some space for your stuff. Your music collection and pictures will probably have to live on the USB drive you already have because laptop dis drives usually die after a year or two anyway. (Usually from the abuse)

    1. Re:Big deal -- you too can boot off flash! by MikeFM · · Score: 1

      I have a 4GB CF and it easily stores my Linux kernel, libraries, apps, and config files. I've heard Windows has issues with running on flash media mostly because there is no easy way to tell it the media should be read-only meaning that it quickly wears the media out with frivilous disk writing. I'd suspect you could fix this just be getting a CF to IDE adapter that supports making the drive read-only in hardware. Or you could just ignore it and buy new flash media every now and then.

      The CF to IDE adapters I mostly use I picked up for $8 each including S&H and they work great. My only real complaint about such adapters is that they usually have no easy way to mount them to your case. I'd like to see an adapter that could hold several CF cards that was made to mount in the space of a 3.5" hdd.

      I wouldn't suggest with going with the cheapest per meg flash media you can get as usually these are buggier and slower than the more expensive media. The difference in price is usually not huge so it's better to go with the faster media if you can.

      --
      At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
    2. Re:Big deal -- you too can boot off flash! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somewhat OT (hence replying AC) but a straight-up Vista business install -- format to welcome window -- takes 12GB.

    3. Re:Big deal -- you too can boot off flash! by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

      Last time I had to deal with this sort of thing in Windows, you could turn of paging in the registry "somewhere."

      With Linux, its easy, just don't run "swapon."

      "good" compact flash drives have a life of about 10,000 writes or 100,000 writes depending on technology. Assuming 10,000 writes per byte, as long as you don't swap (which would read/write quickly), and only write to a specific block a few times a day, the disk will last you about 9 years. Longer than a physical hard disk.

      Short of virtual memory, I don't see too much of a problem except for the various log files that should be sent to the bit bucket or a virtual drive (bit that wastes memory). The big hit will be journaling file systems and file inode blocks.

    4. Re:Big deal -- you too can boot off flash! by MikeFM · · Score: 1

      Probably the only thing besides swap and logs would be if a file is recording access times on frequently used files. I do a lot of data processing (copying files, rewriting files, etc at about 100,000 files a day) which is also pretty intensive on disk writes so I don't do that on flash either.

      I've been considering getting a RAM drive for use of temp files and such but I haven't yet seen any quite big enough. I use a RAM disk anyway for /tmp but I'd like to have something a little more static, and with more space, for the large files I'm actively processing. Something of about 32-64GB would probably be pretty good. I'm also interested to see how much these hybrid drives we've been hearing about are going to help. 1GB of cache seems like it'd help but I often deal with files larger than that so I wonder if that is enough. They should just sell hdd's with normal RAM slots on the back so you could add RAM to them.

      --
      At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
  30. 1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB by llZENll · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With these new disks would be a great time for manufactures to align their specs with the consumers mind. i.e. 1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB. For once I would like to buy a drive and actually be able to use 34,359,738,368 bytes and not the crummy 32,000,000,000 they are selling.

    1. Re:1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB by Buelldozer · · Score: 1

      Maybe the consumer mind should stop doing Fisher-Price mathematics and realize that not everything needs to end in a nice round number.

    2. Re:1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 1

      Flash Hard Drive Vendor: "Ah, but 1,000,000,000 bytes does equal a GB. I presume you're thinking of a GiB. No, no, silly man, it is the Operating System that is reporting incorrect units."

      Seriously though, I hope you're right. Somehow I think it's wishful thinking though. With these devices still lagging way behind HDDs in capacity terms I can see this as a non-decision for the corporate guys as a way to make up some ground cost-free.

      --
      Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    3. Re:1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB by Cesa · · Score: 1

      Being a fan of SI-prefixes and their correct use I'd rather see a wider adoption of the IEC standard prefixes (MiB etc.) The manufactures may just do it do make their drives seem bigger, but to be honest, they're the ones who's got it right.

    4. Re:1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      computers use the binary number system for addressing memory. 2^10 = 1024.
      this is why when you buy RAM a gig is 1024MB, However the cpu does not address sectors of a hard drive the way. so it is correct that 1000 = giga.
      This is also true for network protocols. gigabit ethernet 1000 bps NOT 1024.
      The only thing I know of that a gig really means 1024 is in system addressable memory. Because of the nature of binary addressing.
      Now, flash memory actually work more similarly to system ram than it does a hard drive and is typically produced with the 1024 = giga scheme.

      So, I suspect that if you buy a 1 gig SSD you will get 1024MB, however depending on how it is partitioned, you may not be able to use its full capacity. When is the last time you partitioned a HDD and didn't have a few megs of left over space?

    5. Re:1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 1
      1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB


      Yes, it does. SI prefixes don't change just because you're using a different unit.
    6. Re:1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB by ben+there... · · Score: 1

      Why does it matter? They all do it. You can still compare a 320 GB drive from one manufacturer to a 250 GB drive from another vendor. What are you doing with the drive that requires they use the same units as, for example, memory?

      It only bothers the type of people that complain in NewEgg reviews that they got ripped off because apparently they've never used a hard drive before, or they don't understand that the difference between units multiplies by the larger size of the bigger drives. To them, I say: No, your "320 GB" drive does not rip you off. It is still "80 GB" x 4. So shut up already.

    7. Re:1,000,000,000 bytes does not equal a GB by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      The thing is, the SI prefixes are explicitly defined as base-10 back in the 1890's. Therefore, 1 Mega=1 000 000, 1 Giga=1 000 000 000 etc etc. If you want to truly comply with a worldwide standard, that is what you have to adhere to. The fact that many academic programmers and even professors don't just goes to show that the standards compliance they rave about is just so much lip service.

  31. 8 or 16GB by sottitron · · Score: 1

    Does anyone else think 32GB might be bigger than they need? I wouldn't spend $600 more, but I would spend $150 more for an 8GB version and just leave my MP3s at home. I realize Vista won't install on 8GB (then again, maybe its close), but OS X (without GarageBand and iMovie) or XP should fit on there just fine.

  32. Re:ATTN: SanDisk Execs by Intron · · Score: 1

    The metric system was devised in the 18th century with the prefixes kilo, mega and giga. Just because some lazy asshat decided that 1024 was "close enough" to 1000 when talking about computer memory doesn't mean everyone else has to follow suit. Hard disks have been using K = 1000 since before processors standardized on binary arithmetic.

    --
    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  33. Off-topic by subl33t · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't take it anymore!

    Attention taggers: "no" is not a tag, it's an opinion. Same goes for "yes" and "maybe". Submit it in a post or STFU.

    1. Re:Off-topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just tagged it with all three. You're welcome.

    2. Re:Off-topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no

    3. Re:Off-topic by repvik · · Score: 1
      Attention taggers: "no" is not a tag, it's an opinion. Same goes for "yes" and "maybe". Submit it in a post or STFU.


      The article asked you a question. It's polite to give an answer. Quit whining or STFU.

    4. Re:Off-topic by subl33t · · Score: 1

      "The article asked you a question. It's polite to give an answer."

      And the forum is for the answers, not the tags - STFU.

  34. FTA 128GB SSD just around the corner by llZENll · · Score: 1

    "The NAND flash contained in the SanDisk drive, in fact, only contains one bit of data per memory cell. SanDisk makes NAND flash that can hold two bits of data per cell and, through Msystems, has technology for expanding that to 4 bits of memory in a cell. Increasing the capacity can thus be accomplished without massive technological breakthroughs."

  35. Hrrrrm. by LikeTheSearchEngine · · Score: 1

    A more reliable laptop, which is lighter, less prone to failure from abuse, and may even last longer on a charge, at the price of not much storage space and ... the price.

    Seems like the target market should be the military.

    1. Re:Hrrrrm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      from what i read in the article, their target market already is the military - the Isreali military, but the military none the less!

  36. Flash is good but not perfect. by MikeFM · · Score: 1

    My Linux systems have a 4GB CF card that stores all static files such as programs, libraries, and config files. I have the partition with these files (yes it's /) made read-only and noatime. You really only want to use it for these files because flash media has a limited number of writes it can handle.

    It does speed the system up though and it makes it a lot less likely to suffer an unbootable situation which is really the reason I switched to flash. I got sick of needing to rebuild or restore my whole system every time the drives wore out. Yes, you can use RAID but it's still seems wrong to store my data on the same drive(s) as my OS and applications.

    Add RAM and get rid of swap/virtual memory too as it'll greatly speed your system up and prolong it's life. If switching to such a system make sure you buy actual flash media and not a micro-drive in the form factor of flash media. It doesn't do you any good to try to switch to flash if you're actually using a wee hdd. Also I suggest carefully checking the speed and compatibility of the flash media before you buy it because some brands and lines work a hell of a lot better and faster than others.

    --
    At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
  37. Awesome for databases by punker · · Score: 1

    I would be really glad to see these sort of devices become more widespread. We have a few solid state devices at work for our critical, high performance apps. For what we bought when we bought them, the price was through the roof. But the performance can't be beat. It's like having a persistent ramdisk to store your DB to. It really gave a huge performance boost to us, because the DB concurrency controls force it to wait alot for any I/O, including other transactions doing I/O.
              This is a bit different than what we have, but it's still better than many of the disk options out there. And the price difference is negligible when you consider it next to 15k RPM disks.

  38. Um.. did you read that link? by chaboud · · Score: 1
    The link you posted shows huge performance losses for fragmented data.

    From the link:

    If like me you thought that flash memory wouldn't be affected by fragmentation, then you'll find these results quite an eye opener. Looking at the write performance, you can see that while there is no difference in performance between the card states for 512B files (as you'd expect, since they'll fit in a single block, and therefore won't ever be fragmented), for 32kB files, the fragmented card has dropped to half the performance of the defragmented and blank cards. By the time you hit 256kB files, the fragmented card has dropped to almost one quarter the performance of the defragged card, and one eighth the performance of the blank card! The relative performance seems to be maintained at the same level for 2MB files as for 256kB files. With read performance, the difference doesn't get huge until the 2MB range, but then we see a massive drop in performance. Honestly, I thought that there wouldn't be a significant performance loss. Apparently, there is. My guess is that this is less of an issue as the on-board flash controller gets quicker, as well as if the drive interface to the flash is quick, but it's definitely data for consideration.
    1. Re:Um.. did you read that link? by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      But isn't flash media faster to defrag? Since you can quickly belt data around the disk without needing to wait for a head to move, I can see defragging being done 'behind the scenes' a lot more.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    2. Re:Um.. did you read that link? by skinfitz · · Score: 1

      Do filing systems on Flash media benefit from being defragmented? No head seek remember.

  39. Doomed to failure. by Jartan · · Score: 1

    I havn't read up on flash lately but I was still under the impression flash had problems with wearing out from writing to the same sector too often.

    That's fine for a thumb drive but can it really handle the truly massive constant data restructuring generated by the pr0n? I'm assuming it can't.

    I'm not even going to ponder the economic success of an expensive hard drive which is unsuitable for the primary data storage need of geeks everywhere.

    1. Re:Doomed to failure. by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      Well, the world is a better place knowing geniuses like you are roaming at ./ and shitting mental bullshit into postings.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  40. One word - Aviation by jbrandv · · Score: 1

    I've been waiting for these for too long. I am a pilot with a small two seat airplane and have an iPAQ that is currently getting data from my GPS for moving map S.W. and feeding data to my autopilot. I've gone this route because laptops with hard drives don't survive more than a few weeks of being bumped around in the sky. The move to a flash drive is great! $600 is so far down in the noise as far as aircraft costs go that it seems very cheep to me. Sign me up! I'll put it in my Acer 12" Tablet PC and mount that on my panel. Going from 4.5" screen to 12" will be GREAT!

  41. Here's an idea by Jeff1946 · · Score: 1

    Probably already been patented, but here goes. Use flash for a large read/write cache for the hard drive. Somewhat like a RAID set-up except that cache write data would only be tranferred periodically. If you kept track of the read information so that frequently used data on the disk would stay in the cache and not be swapped out. Maybe disks could be designed to run at low speed for power saving as well when they are being infrequently accessed.

    1. Re:Here's an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's called a hybrid drive. Expect to see the first ones on the market within a year or two at the latest.

  42. It has been done before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Super Talent are already doing this, but have only reached 16gb
    http://www.supertalent.com/press/ide.php/

    These drives are on sale - I saw a site that sold them for about GBP 370. One year manufacturer's warranty, so I guess they usually last at least that length of time under a 'common usage' scenario.

  43. Flash-y by simpl3x · · Score: 1

    Sign me up for the flashy trinkets. They are also 1.5 or 1.8 inches rather than 2.5!

    in 1.5 years well have 2x as much at .5 the cost

    1. Re:Flash-y by trentblase · · Score: 1

      That's MooreMoore's law right?

  44. Interface? by Wicko · · Score: 1

    What kind of interface does it use? I remember there was a review of a samsung one that used ATA66, not exactly the best interface in the world. Shouldn't these things be able to actually use the capabilities (bandwidth) of SATA2 unlike most HDs today?

    1. Re:Interface? by Slashcrap · · Score: 1

      What kind of interface does it use? I remember there was a review of a samsung one that used ATA66, not exactly the best interface in the world. Shouldn't these things be able to actually use the capabilities (bandwidth) of SATA2 unlike most HDs today?

      Yeah, because SATA2 is like 300MB per second so if they'd used that it would have been 5 times faster!

      No. Let's introduce some reality to this situation. The transfer speed of this flash drive is not directly stated, but it will not be anything like 66MB/s. The speed advantage of these devices comes from the latency not raw bandwidth. So ATA66 would be entirely adequate for this device and SATA2 would make minimal difference.

      The only other advantage of SATA2 is Native Command Queueing. One which I do not think is going to apply to Flash drives.

      Although to be fair, I believe you were thinking of that silly Gigabyte (the manufacturer not the capacity) RAM drive thing. Which used DDR RAM instead of Flash and did have a stupidly slow interface which eliminated most of the potential speed boost. But that thing was just retarded anyway.

  45. Flash/ZFS combo? by jaypeg · · Score: 1

    I'm more interested in seeing what Apple does with ZFS formating for regular drives, but also having a flash drive would solve the problem of booting from the ZFS drive? It wouldn't have to be 32MB for just that.

  46. Another Solution? by Plekto · · Score: 1

    Why not just run a ramdisk? No problems with read/write cycles. Optimally, you'd have a 4 gig ramdisk for the OS and the flash drive/whatever for the apps. You only need a few gig for Windows and the associated swap-space. Sure, you'd need to have it monitor the status of the battery, but how many years do lithium batteries last? Have the OS save to a partition on the flash drive when it shuts down and load it in when it starts up. It could last for decades this way. I had a laptop almost 15 years ago that did this, in fact. 1Meg(heh) ramdisk and it was silly fast. With solid-state drives, though, there would be no chance of data loss from losing power(or at most the clock rolls back to your last bootup).

    1. Re:Another Solution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Flash is okay, except for the slow writes (mitigated with interleaving writes to multiple chips) and limited writes (mitigated by wear-leveling algorithms). One day MRAM will take the crown. I suppose if you had cash you could build an extremely bulky MRAM drive right now, but it's fucking not cheap. (> 50$/meg) Best wait a few years.

  47. Re:Power? Nah by oojah · · Score: 1

    Don't assume the way *you* use your laptop is the same way that everybody else uses theirs. I'd find my laptop a lot less useful without a battery.

    Cheers,

    Roger

    --
    Do you have any better hostages?
  48. But do you really want to support this company? by losycompresion · · Score: 1

    Do you really want to support a company that requires IE to view their product page? Just look at the 32gb SSD product page in IE and Firefox. It is almost impossible to browse with Firefox, but it does look great in IE!!!

  49. lifespan by Seto89 · · Score: 1

    Did they consider the lifespan of the flash memory? What about the several-thousand-rewrites-and-goodbye?

    --
    There are two kinds of people - those who are radioactive and those who have already decayed..
  50. Give me a flash hard drive any day by Badmovies · · Score: 1

    I remember being very thankful that thumb drives caught on. Over the years, I have been asked to recover data off of CDs that were cracked and 3.5" disks that had been put though heck. 3.5" disks were the worst. People would bring them in full of sand or with seriously damaged outer shells. With flash drives, I have seen them crushed, run through a washing machine, and partially melted by fire - but was able to recover the data most of the time. They are a huge improvement over the old storage media.

    Now, we are talking about replacing hard drives. People drop laptops, they operate them in heat, and even drop stuff onto them. Breaking your laptop is bad, but many will agree that the data can be worth far more than the hardware. With any luck, flash memory will prove to be more durable, faster to access, and require less power. I am sure Toshiba will look at the technology for toughbooks, as will anyone who needs to store data on gear that will take a beating. It would make jogging with your video iPod a lot less worrisome, wouldn't it?

    The idea of only using flash for the operating system, while storing data on a regular hard drive is the wrong way to go. Granted, they are looking at just speed enhancements, but I want all the goodies for my data as well.

    --


    Andrew Borntreger
    Champion of cinematic disasters
  51. and so it begins... by spectro · · Score: 1

    This is probably the first step to what Mark Cuban Predicted a year ago. It is just a matter of time for demand to make the price of these drives go down enough to replace "Prehistoric" media formats such as CD, DVD, BlueRay, etc.

    --
    HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
  52. How does this differ from CF+IDE adaptor? by the_humeister · · Score: 1

    This whole thing got me to thinking that maybe I should replace the harddrive in my older laptop with a CF+IDE adaptor. Granted I can't seem to find anything greater than 4GB at stores, but SanDisk does sell 16GB CF cards somewhere. The CF specification has a limit of 137 GB (at least the old specs do). In terms of price, a 2GB CF + IDE adaptor will cost about $40-$50, which isn't too bad.

  53. Serial or Parallell would be "better".. by newr00tic · · Score: 1

    I'm not down on the technical limitations for putting this into practice, but I'd say a PCI card or something with loads of SD-slots on it would've been interesting; so that you could combine their storage capacity, and make all of them appear as one drive, and so have all the card's capacities rolled into one drive.

    I'm thinking something like a virtual file-allocation-table, that is being created from each card's content at boot-up, (either a battery-backed ram chip on-card, that sorts it out based on what is on there, _OR_, a separate SD card functioning as "/" in regards of summing up how files are allocated, and that master-card could be four times the required space, so as to swap FAT-placement to lessen wearage..) -Each sub-card should perhaps have their share of the allocation table, but I don't know.

    Surely fun, if not practical..

    --
    A horse can't be sick, you know, even if he wants to.
  54. traditional HDs can't hack high altitude by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

    HDs need air pressure. The article missed that one for why aerospace especially is interested. Somewhere between 17000 ft and 21000 ft altitude, traditional HDs start to fail, and over 21k ft is certain death. Most of them have a note in the fine print that use over 10k ft is not recommended. Anyone ever check a laptop, and accidentally leave it running something that will spin up the HD during the flight, on a plane that doesn't have a pressurized baggage compartment?

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  55. ..Would you like a game of WORM? by newr00tic · · Score: 1

    Reading from the cards, (spare physical wearage on the connectors; USB-dongles getting dirty on the "copper," or whatever after so-and-so many mounts,) is "free," right?

    -So, I'd chuck any *finished* projects on this kind of storage system, and so being able to read them "forever;" all those files you need just in case but that are never going to be written to again; I'd put them on there..

    --
    A horse can't be sick, you know, even if he wants to.
  56. DISK and DRIVE are NOT SYNONYMS! by raehl · · Score: 1

    The drive is the thing that does the reading and writing. The disk is the thing that the data is written to/read from.

    In floppy drives, you can take the disk in and out.

    In hard drives, the disks are mounted and (normally) not removable. But there are still hard disks in that hard drive - round things with data on them that spin.

    So, is is Solid State Disk or Solid State Drive?

    NEITHER!

    Solid State Device. There is no disk, and since there's no disk to spin, nothing is being driven either.

    Should really call it SSS, Solid State Storage.

    1. Re:DISK and DRIVE are NOT SYNONYMS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have confused disc with disk.

      Discs are round things, that can spin.
      Disks are any number of oddly shaped, mostly 2D objects, e.g. a spinal disk.

  57. Speed and reliability by fljmayer · · Score: 1

    What really draws me to a flash disk is random access time. For many uses (software development in my case) the real drawback of notebooks is the long random access time of their hard disks, and you can't replace them with fast a 3.5" WD Raptor drive. Reducing build times by a couple of minutes would really help me.

    1. Re:Speed and reliability by kabz · · Score: 1

      Maybe you can't easily attach a raptor, but you can hook up and boot from a fast external over firewire.

      My Macs run way better booted from external than internal (5400RPM 2.5" Drives), and SuperDuper takes about an hour to create an bootable partition on an external. (Not an image)

      --
      -- "It's not stalking if you're married!" My Wife.
  58. I can see a pretty ugly problem with this. by Timmy+D+Programmer · · Score: 0

    I was under the impression flash ram had (although high) limited number of uses. I would suspect the constant writing and re-writing our hard drives go through would push those limits.

    --


    (If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
  59. I have no moving parts, except keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sending this from a machine with no moving parts, except the keyboard: it has a flash disk, no fan, and an optical mouse. This is a 1 GHz VIA C3 based machine (less then 2 litres volume), and the flash is a 4 GB IDE drive. It takes about 20 W. I also have a Linksys Slug with no moving parts as an NFS server (5 W), and three more lab / development machines all with no moving parts; they have either XScale ARM processors (slugs) or VIA C3 or C7s, and either IDE or USB flash. These machines run more than fast enough for everything that I do, which includes a lot of kernel compilations and C++. Disk space it a bit tight sometimes, but deborphan is my friend, and flash is only getting cheaper. If you want a silent, low-power machine you can already have it, and it will probably cost you less than the alternative.

    For me, by far the best benefit of this is the complete silence that results.

  60. Flash Drives are getting better quick by wwillia99 · · Score: 1

    You can get an 8 GB USB flash drives for 100 bucks now on pricewatch. why are these so expensive? I predict that some company will be making kids laptops with small say about 20 GB flash drives 1.5 GHz processers some crippled version of Linux in 3 to 4 years for 150 to 200 bucks. And Flash drives will be dirt cheap next time you blink.

  61. not my car, dude by thegnu · · Score: 1

    Oh well, we are still using wheels in our cars so... maybe it's not so surprising after all.

    My car uses an inclined plane, and jet thrusters. My other car is a hamster ball.

    But really, the CAR is moving. So you're going to have to have some moving parts to help reduce friction.

    --
    Please stop stalking me, bro.
  62. Virus attacks? by flimflammer · · Score: 1

    Presumably these flash drives suffer from the same write degrading that happens over the span of a flash drives' life. Usually this won't ever be noticed because people will not be writing data to the drive continuously, but would this type of drive open up the possibility for a virus or other harmful program to repeatedly write to the free sectors of the drive over and over again, quickly diminishing the lifetime of this overall expensive product? The affected user base would be small, granted, but the overall effect would be quite harmful.

    1. Re:Virus attacks? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      While it is possible, I wouldn't worry about it too much for now. It seems that the days of viruses that like to destroy your data or attempt to destroy your hardware have passed, even though such things are certainly still possible. It seems that the creators of viruses nowadays are mostly concerned with turning computers into spam bots and zombies.

  63. Great for spies by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 1

    One of the problems with magnetic hard drives is that it is nearly impossible to wipe information from a really determined investigator - rewritten bits don't line up with the originals, leaving the old data behind. Flash memory doesn't suffer from this - writing a bit to a zero doesn't leave any residue of the old value - even if you measure the charge on the floating gate.

    --
    It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  64. Wow, that's neat by Rix · · Score: 1

    It's not really practical, especially for laptops, but it's a great proof of concept.

  65. Re:ATTN: SanDisk Execs by toddestan · · Score: 1

    The metric system was devised in the 18th century with the prefixes kilo, mega and giga. Just because some lazy asshat decided that 1024 was "close enough" to 1000 when talking about computer memory doesn't mean everyone else has to follow suit. Hard disks have been using K = 1000 since before processors standardized on binary arithmetic.

    Which must have been sometime in the mid eighties, right around the time the 40MB drives came out? Because that's when all this nonsense started.

  66. Yay, 100,000 writes and then fail... by Khyber · · Score: 1

    Honestly, I'll wait for Phase-Change non-volatile RAM to become commercially viable. Hundreds of thousands or read/writes that Flash has compared to the reads/writes capabilities of most standard RAM chips today, and which PRAM promises to deliver as well. As often as my drive's contents change, Flash HDD is *NOT* the way to go for me, no matter what. But, being made for Laptops is a good idea, since it's a low-power alternative to magnetic storage, but the short lifetime just isn't worth it. (I've already worn out two 1GB SD cards within a year with my constant read/write habits.)

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  67. a stupid question: use Flash instead of RAM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Assuming that with wear levelling and other technologies we were able to take care of the limited write cycle problems with Flash memory, would it ever make sense to use Flash not only to replace hard drives, but also RAM? There would obviously be a performance hit, but how much? It would be like permanently swapping (faster than with the current hard drives though), except without the actual need for the swapping operation, thereby simplifying memory management in the OS. A major benefit would be that turning off your computer wouldn't mean exiting your applications and closing your files, everything would stay in memory as you left it. It would be much cheaper too...

    Basically my noob question is: how much faster is RAM read/write compared to Flash?

  68. As long as we're begging... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Please give us direct access to the device -- none of this CompactFlash HD emulating crap. Windows can emulate a hard drive if it wants to -- Linux is developing an FS specifically designed for Flash devices, that operates directly on the Flash, not even as a block device.

    Remember -- Flash is funny. You don't overwrite, you erase, then write -- in fairly large blocks. You want to intentionally fragment stuff, so you write evenly over the memory, so you don't wear it out as quickly -- but you also want to keep the chunks defragmented, even delay writes a little (Reiser4/XFS style), so you can overwrite a whole block at a time.

    All in all, I'd much rather trust Linux/jffs2 to manage my Flash than some arbitrary hardware inside a CompactFlash device.

    And speaking of OS choices... Why are you so desperate for OSX on such a device? I mean, you realize you've just reduced yourself to grovelling because your OS vendor needlessly restricts the hardware you run it on? You realize that the moment someone produces such a device, I'll be able to run Linux on it, but unless you're very lucky, you won't be able to run OS X without cracking it?

    Regarding battery life -- my old Sharp Actius had some 9-10 of battery life, and it was a subnotebook. If you want battery life, it's simple: Sacrifice performance, and don't do much with it (read a book or something). Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like any manufacturer wants to do that.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  69. Wrong scale by repvik · · Score: 1

    Think volume, not storage size.

  70. Old, old news by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 1

    So Sandisk gets press for doing this. Memtech and Bitmicro have had solid state flash drives for well over a year, with SCSI, SATA and PATA interfaces as well. And they range up to 64Gb.

    Bitmicro

    Memtech

    And there are most likely even more out there. These are just the ones I know of.

    --
    Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
  71. Dispute with friend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just a quick question Zonk -- I need you to settle a dispute I'm having with a friend over the title of your article-"Flash Memory HDD for Notebooks Launched"... I took the position that HDD in your title meant high-density-device. Hopefully I'm right and he owes me $100. If not, please delete this comment before he finds it.
    Thanks

  72. Re:As long as we're begging... ACTIUS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess you had the MM10. The newer MM20/50/70 is much more usable. Same Clock speed, but with the eficeon chip, it seems like 50% faster. I liked them MM10 because it would last hours on battery and was small enough to carry around, but then I felt like it /needed/ to last a long time since it took an hour just to boot XP ;)

      -- anonymous coward #10273

  73. Just a thought by nyghtraven · · Score: 1

    I am personally excited about this news. Its about time we get rid of the biggest bottleneck in computer performance... hard disks. They suck bad.. in fact they reach a new level of suckedness. Mechanical, power hogs, slow, prone to failure.. the only thing going for them that flash memory cant touch yet is storage space, and of course the corresponding price. Flash drives (that is, those designed to act as a hard disk replacement) are incredibly fast, reliable, built in error correction and redundancy, and not near the power gulpers of traditional hard disks. A 32 gig drive is plenty of space to hold your OS (or more if you desire) and applications. Now it may not be enough though for personal files. I know I personally use 160 or gigs of space. But in the OS and apps I use, not over 6 gigs. plenty of space left for those that are on the go and can sync up to their home / work servers. Its time to upgrade to the 21st century, lol One thing I want to know though... why use flash? Why not use traditional RAM modules instead? You can solve the problem of data being deleted by adding a small power supply to hold it. I head of a company trying that but not much else.

  74. Re:As long as we're begging... ACTIUS by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Yes, it was the MM10. I didn't trust Sharp again, though, for a couple of major reasons:

    • Sharp tech support refused to replace my hard drive when it died the first time, no matter how many Linux log messages I read to them, until I wiped it and reinstalled XP on it. It occurs to me that they may have flat-out refused if I'd attempted to get a Windows refund -- which, in hindsight, I should've done.
    • I had to send it back to them several times, and it came back with fewer screws each time.
    • It was damned thin -- it apparently used the same kind of hard drive you could get in an iPod. So, the second time it failed, I figured I'd just buy a new hard drive and make it usable. Unfortunately, the only compatible hard drives I found were sold out, and Sharp refused to tell me where I could buy another hard drive. The only way to replace it is to either try an iPod hard drive (and hope it has the right interface), or pay Sharp some $100-200 service fee just to look at the thing and tell me if they can replace the hard drive. That's right -- they won't sell me a new hard drive, but they'll happily charge me hundreds of dollars to decide if they want to install a new one themself -- plus the cost of that new hard drive, if they deign to replace it.
    • No hard drive? Fine, it's got built-in WiFi, and it'll boot off USB. I should be able to plug in a USB key, boot it to a minimal Linux initrd, and have that Linux open a VPN connection to a fileserver and operate as a diskless, wireless machine. Unfortunately, even that doesn't work, as it used to take around 20 minutes to get past the splash screen when a hard drive wasn't connected (or working)... But, when I tried it again a month later, it never got past that screen. The machine is officially dead now.
    • The thing was just too flimsy. I can drop my Powerbook and it's fine, drop this and the hard drive's gone, or the screen cracks, or something.

    Now, I've discovered how much I dislike certain aspects of the Powerbook, and I could be talked into getting another Actius, or something like it. But this time around, I want it to be able to play DVD video -- the MM10 choked on that, either the CPU or the video card, but it was not just Linux -- and I want it to have at least 40 or 50 gigs of storage, unless it's all solid state. Other than that, it's software (Linux) issues that I can fix myself...

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  75. Only one problem by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 1

    One power glitch, one failed cap or resistor in the power supply. Bang. There goes your entire drive. At least flash can survive without power.

    --
    Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.