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Dell Sells Open Source Computers
Lo5 writes with the excellent news that Dell is selling desktop computers without Windows preinstalled. They are called "n Series"; you can choose from Dimension E520, E521, or C521 desktops. The hard drive comes unformatted.
Dell has been doing this for a long time.
Apparently, the submitter and editor don't truly realize what "open source" is. Selling a PC without anything on it isn't open source; it's selling a computer with nothing on it. This isn't a move to support open source, it's a move to save money by not having to pay the MS tax.
Anthony Papillion
Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
"Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
Well that's good, but I'll still opt for building my own.
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
Has anyone figured out how much cheaper these computers come than those with OEM Windows? Dell's pricing/models are so scattered I don't even know where to begin.
They have been doing this for some time. I have heard that Linux is known to port badly to these machines.
Shows how much Microsoft's monopoly is silently accepted when it's news that someone sells computers without Windows.
... and then they built the supercollider.
This is at least 1.5 years old, probably more.
I've been buying n-series in 2005.
Well, if your computer has no compiled code on it, then it's vacuously true to say that you have all the source code too.
What sound do people on rollercoasters make? Hint: it's not Xbox 360.
Note: Dell does not support non-Dell installed operating systems.
In short: "We won't even give you tech support for the FreeDOS that comes in the package. All we'll do is replace your hardware if it breaks."
Care about privacy? Read this!
You have the source code for your BIOS?
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Does a company the size of Dell really lack the expertise to port this "unformatted disk" technology to the entire line?
Yes. We know. And you usually have to go through about 50 pages to find them. Usually buried somewhere in the Business sections. MS doesn't want them to advertise systems without Windows.
You have the source code for your BIOS?
When I used a genuine IBM PC back in the day, yes, IBM published the complete source code to BIOS. The listing was *the* API reference.
An ATI graphics card with proprietary drivers or an NVidia graphics card with proprietary drivers; what a choice.
Anyone notice that, during the configuration, all the banner ads, logos and "recommendations" all mention Vista? High-larious.
They've been doing this for years. News would be if "No OS" and "Linux" options were available for every system, and even more so for notebooks and the "Home" section. As it currently seems, however, this is not news.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
Well, while this is certainly a good thing, Dell have actually been doing this for quite some time. That aside, I fail to see how selling unformatted boxes counts as "selling open source computers" - surely it's just selling PC's without an OS. If they came with an open source OS installed, then sure. But they don't. This headline is really misleading. It's also a very small number of their product line that comes with this option. I wonder how much this ticks of MS, and if there's any danger for Dell that they'll have to start shelling out more for licenses, as a result of a pissed off MS' reaction? Probably not on this scale, but still, you have to wonder if it's worth it for Dell, not that I don't think this should be a standard option.
well, did you ever see closed source nothing?
:)
which raises a question....
if I distribute a null file under GPL don't any modification to it have to be also GPL-ed?
If you read the link, they come with FreeDOS. So yes, they are open source.
I bought a Windows X2 AMD Dual-Core 3800+ without monitor for $389, however, when I tried to purchase an n-series with the exact same processor without the monitor, I was not allowed to remove the monitor. Dell tech support said they could not sell the n-series machine without a monitor.
these machines arent any cheaper than Dell's other offerings with the same hardware
you are paying the same and not getting the $100 value of xp or so
And then there was E
The MSDNAA allows volume licensing of Windows, but alot of colleges have signed a deal with Dell for equipment. CS departments (and maybe others) tend to double-up on Windows licenses since they usually wipe the machines and install an image with the volume license.
Dell needs to sell all their machines without requiring a Windows license... especially since Vista isn't necessary and will cost more than XP.
All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
How does the value of one of these no-software Dell PCs compare with one that you build yourself?
They do have volume deals, so it might still be a good deal. But if there's a rebate, forget it (I'm still boycotting them over their refusal to honor their rebate on a Latitude notebook I bought several years ago).
My recollection is that they AREN'T cheaper. Been a while, Dell's pricing is always shifty, but... I remember the price of Windows (if you were in a state where you could "return" it) to be something like $47 - but these "bare" boxes to usually cost the same amount as a similar computer WITH Windows... no savings at all. Oh, and not available on the least expensive boxes, as I remember - a Windows box is always the cheapest Dell option.
Now if THAT changed, maybe that would be news.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
Note: Dell does not support non-Dell installed operating systems. In short: "We won't even give you tech support for the FreeDOS that comes in the package. All we'll do is replace your hardware if it breaks."
That sounds like support to me. They support what they assembled/installed. Dell support is not a uniform thing, it varies quite a bit from product to product and segment to segment. Give them more money, they will give you more support. Give them even more and they'll send someone to your home/office. Give them alot of money and they'll help you setup your enterprise with custom software and help you keep it running.
An OT problem.
1:Fujitsu Lifebook running W2K with no floppy/cd-rom/DVD, but does have built-in NIC (With PXE 2.0 support) and 56K modem.
I can't get past the login screen (not even in safe mode).
I've tried Knoppix 3.6 (terminal server) and I do get part way in the boot process, but no further.
Ideally I could run a server (TFTPD) on the main machine and serve up an OS with a password bypasser. But I haven't found anything that'll work without jumping trough a lot of hoops. I'm have debated pulling the HDD and doing it that way, but I don't want to break anything.
---
My slashword is "careless". Thank slashdot!
found it!
Interesting that when you "configure" the computer the "operating systems" button is still a windows logo. The only option available is "FreeDOS". (I was trawling to see if Dell would let me configure an open-source machine with the windows operating system. They don't.)
FreeDOS configuration with is around 70$ cheaper than Windows version. Windows version is same price for 250GB and 320GB HDD but on FreeDOS version if you chose 250GB HDD then it is almost 160$ cheaper...sweetahhhhhhhhh
If you can demonstrate that you wrote a work independently of someone else, that person's copyright doesn't apply to you. I think you could rather easily demonstrate independent creation of an empty file. ;-)
I noticed these on Dells site several months ago. They call them Open Source becasue they ship with FreeDos and are intended for people to install which ever flavor of Linux they prefer.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
My research is that you are paying $230 _More_
x /dimen_e520?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
See http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.asp
Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
RTFA... it ships with FreeDOS. Sounds like open source to me.
Does anyone have any idea whether or not Dell has actually sold a decent number of these? Or does no one much actually buy them?
...superDupe(r)! Honestly, this has got to be the most duped post ever.
some of you might remember back six years ago:s _shipped_without/a rly_illegal/
how PCs shipped without Windows will destroy your life: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/11/23/ms_how_pc
it's (nearly) illegal to buy PCs without Windows: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/11/28/ms_its_ne
is there a web archive somewhere of http://www.microsoft.com/OEM/nakedPC.htm ??
They cost the same if not more than the PCs that have Windows installed.
Well, for the computer to be open source, you'd have to be able to access all the documents necessary to build all of its subcomponents. (And for the computer to be free as in speech, nothing in it could be patented.) The story shouldn't have called the computers open source, just the OS. ... or non-OS.
Apology to Ubuntu forum.
this make their computers any better though??
In my experience this is about the 5th or 6th time they've done this. I've ordered PC's from them with everything from RedHat to FreeDOS to nothing at all. Depending on when I ask for the quotes on various machines dictates what kind of PC I actually get. Not at all like what I get when I order a server from Sun.
You have the option to choose no OS for small to medium (and up) business machines at HP in the customization options...for laptops no less. I tried writing in about this...but I guess this is just as good.
Dell's new open-source n Series desktop solution provides customers with a DimensionTM E520, E521 or C521 desktop without an installed or included Microsoft® operating system. With the n Series desktop, customers have the flexibility to install an alternative operating system (such as a version of Linux® ), and help reduce the price of this system. In addition, the n Series desktop comes with a non-formatted hard drive ready for your custom installation. Dell's n Series desktop ships with a copy of FreeDosTM , an open-source operating system that is ready to install. http://www.freedos.org/
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
but then dell is a huge customer with the clout to say fuck off.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
I've bought machines (for very reasonable prices) from various vendors such as ASL and Penguin that come with pre-installed linux that just "works". The vendors work around any driver issues such as dual monitor stuff and
you just turn the box on. These vendors actually know what they are selling and have domestic help. Personally, I just toss all those Dell flyers as they just have no value to me.
Companies like Dell are in a unique position to break the Windows monopoly. /et al/ have that clout. A simple decision - only use hardware for which full specs are available - would force the manufacturer's hands. The developers of xorg, linux, BSD etc would use that to produce full support, and everyone would have a real choice. The companies would not have to pay the MS tax, MS would have an incentive to actually make their products useable, DRM would take a heavy thwacking as people can choose not to have it.
The main problem Open Source developers are having is the near-impossibility of getting hardware documentation. The manufacturers are unwilling (which is something I do _not_ understand!), and we lack the marketing clout to force them.
Dell, Hp
Ah, a perfect world. Well, I can dream, can't I?
Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
This is particular unrelated to Linux, especially since I'd wager a lot of money that Windows goes on 90% of these machines after they're sold. I may very buy some of these guys so I can use my "old" Windows 2000 licenses.
I don't respond to AC's.
No, they're from Nebraska.
You had me excited there for a while. Right now, DELL and co. only sell clean PC's stashed in a maze of links for a good reason: Microsoft is leaning threateningly on the "raise MS tax" button...and any attempt to leave the fold will lead to painful rate hikes.
I don't think that's long enough to warrant a copyright.
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
Since when a computer with an unformatted hard disk is an open source computer?
Since when a computer that gives you a choice between ATI and NVIDIA as video cards is an open source computer?
It doesn't even seem to come with LinuxBios
I came here somehow thinking that Dell was selling those OLPC laptops... My bad.
January 26, 2004 to be exact, just after the first time this story was posted, that I'm aware of. It was shortly after Microsoft started its Get the Facts campaign. I think it cost more than the Windows variant though. It wasn't as Linux compatible as one would like. There was a bios issue (according to devs) that made 3D acceleration slightly unstable in xfree86, though a workaround was eventually added to x.org. This was probably the only affected Dell model not to get a firmware update to fix the issue. They fixed it in the Dimension 2500C, but not the Dimension 2500 which mine was based on. I went though about a year of just having to avoid 3D, but it all works today.
I've seen worse though. In 2005 I bought a Linspire system that had an entirely unsupported (at the time) via unichrome video chipset, so 3D acceleration wasn't even a possibility. But at that price, I figured something had to be wrong with it and chose to accept the risk anyway.
I'm not sure what it is with Linux PC sellers shipping systems with linux-incompatible hardware. I also bought a no-OS IBM NetVista that would randomly freeze unless I booted Linux with the noapic kernel option.
I can't seem to find them on the canadian site. Seem like canada is once more ignored. Dam and we are so close to becoming the 51th state....XD.
If they are just strapping in an unformatted hard drive, how do they do any QC? Is the POST sufficient to guarantee all the components are good and installed correctly?
I'm sure anyone installing *NIX is capable of re-seating boards and the like, but it still has to cost Mr. Dell money to do the replacement part thing, right?
When Roscius was an actor in Rome,--
Kind of like putting a Ferrari engine in a Yugo.
Some makers of commercial software with a free trial, such as Symantec with its Norton Antivirus, pay makers of Lenovo-compatible PCs running Windows OS to install their products. Some claim that the trialware bounties more than pay for the entire cost of a Windows license.
if it was laptops. That would be interesting, shaving off ~150 in costs.
a show of hands please from the Geeks who believe that the domestic consumer PC market significantly outweighs markets Europe and the Far East, which have shown themselves to be more open to a GNU/Linux software stack.
My Acorn Atom actually came with schematics (2) and it was easy enough to disassemble the ROM. The manual even had a complete definition of the syntax in Backus-Naur format. Too bad modern computer makers don't seem to have that sort of respect for their users.
Signatures are a waste of bandwi (buffering...)
...do they run Linux?
(Sorry, couldn't rests..o):q!
I find it interesting that Dell offers options like "Norton Confidential for Windows from Symantec" and books like "Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Book" for the N-series FreeDOS PC.
The E521 in the N series is 3.8 Athlon, 512 megs ram, 250 hard drive for $624.
The E521 linked to by dealcatcher.com is a 3.8 Athlon, 1 GB ram, 160 hard drive, and 19" flat panel display with Win XP for $599.
I'm not seeing the savings here guys. I'll trade you the 250->160 for the 512->1024. The flat panel comes for free.
"Almost every wise saying has an opposite one, no less wise, to balance it." - George Santayana
Why yes. Yes there is.
http://web.archive.org/web/20000818081805/http://
If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
Prepare for 1 in 4!
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
I'm sorry, your choice of title sort of confused me there. What do you mean "american consumer" and exactly what are you trying to say?
Furthermore, Dell is not selling a computer with nothing on it. Customise the configuration and you'll notice several differences with other Dell models. For instance, one needs to sacrifice a goat and pay some 10 to 20 Euro/Dollars more in order to buy a computer from Dell without a floppy. Those computers come with a floppy and if you don't want it they don't lower the price. The same goes for the optical drive. Also you'll need to buy a pretty expensive video card that you'll probably not use at all if you indent to use the computer as a server and work remotely on it. And don't forget to order Microsoft Flight Simulator or some of the other windows-only software they try to sell!
..is for them to sell Windowless laptops. I can build a desktop on my own with parts from Newegg but if my girlfriend wants a laptop I still have to pony up for a Dell with a Windows license.
Ok, so I looked at the Dell C521...Not bad for a base unit....Let's see....
Don't need that WinModem if I'm going to run Linux...(Ooops, can't unbundle that it).
Don't need another monitor, I have six already...(Ooops, can't unbundle that...).
Guess I'd rather have an NVidia graph card since I'm running Linux...(Ooops, can't get an NVidia and can't unbundle the ATI...).
*Sigh*
{{ You have the source code for your BIOS? }}
http://linuxbios.org/Welcome_to_LinuxBIOS
Each time these articles come out I go to dell.com just in case there is a deal to be had, unfortunately its the same story every frickin' time.
The basic stripped down N521* comes to $749, the basic stripped down E521 with Windows XP Home is $729! So I save $20 if I buy Windows, WTF!!! I have to pay about $70** for NO OS***?
Try again Dell.
* I had to add the 320GB drive to match what is offered on the E521.
** the N521 is $20 and Windows OEM is maybe $50.
*** it comes with FreeDOS, but its FREE, get it!
I configured both an E521 and a E521n identically
PROCESSOR AMD Athlon(TM) 64 X2 Dual-Core 3800+
OPERATING SYSTEM FreeDOS(TM) included in the box, ready to install
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
HARD DRIVE 320GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache(TM)
OPTICAL DRIVE 16x DVD+/-RW Drive
MONITORS 19 inch E197FP Analog Flat Panel
VIDEO CARD 256MB NVIDIA Geforce 7300LE TurboCache
SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
My Accessories
SPEAKERS No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system)
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included
MODEM 56K PCI Data Fax Modem
My Software
My Service
WARRANTY AND SERVICE 1Yr Ltd Warranty and At-Home Service
The one with Free DOS (no OS) final cost is $789
The one with WinXP Media Center Edition 2005 is $769
The 320GB hard drive is a free upgrade for the Windows system, but for the non-OS system it adds to the cost. What a crock.
um...that isn't the same computer at all, the one in the article had a dual amd64 3800 and that one you linked to had a celeron/pentium 4/pentium d ...very different computers.
ojustgiveitup, a nice name but no I won't.
The visible differences between the open source E520 on the left side of the "open source" page and the E520 on right hand side of the Windoze bargain page are:
Those differences could hardly come up to $230, so you are paying the Windoze tax and then some for the illusion of avoiding it. Same box, same stuff in it, the one with Windoze costs less. What a dissapointment.
If I could not find a cheaper Intel or AMD system or just had to buy the Dell, I'd get the one with Windoze and try to return it ... that's probably what this is designed to thwart ... and use the difference to buy a nice LCD. Given the apparent dishonesty, Dell is going to be the last place I look.
DELL IS TERMINAL.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Three words: Bootable FreeDOS CD.
Since when has anybody in there right mind claimed to support Windows...other than Redmond! Call an OEM and they will just tell you to stick in the OEM recovery disk. They will not tell you how to hack the registry to remove the crap your daughter stuck on it. In reality dell does not do tech support for software ...they would not be in business long if they did. Why do you think gateway closed their swank upmarket retail stores? They were getting hosed by software trouble and they realized that software support is for suckers and shiesters, not manufacturers.
Every time I go down to the local neighborhood computer shop and watch what is going on it makes me want to puke, they are always fleecing some poor sucker who has hosed a windows install, at 60-100 bucks a crack for a windows reinstall. Then I watch them making jokes about the ubiquitous "monkey virus" and how it is sure going around. If I was a crook and had no scruples I would sell out, get an MSCE and fleece the sheep that bought a dell, gateway or whatever pc... with windows installed. But then I would find it hard to live with myself. In reality the PC industry has become a den of thieves and charlatans, thanks to Microsoft.
Actually it wasn't complete. There was a lot of useful stuff there but you couldn't build a BIOS out of what they published.
This guy found an E520 (the Intel core 2 with 1G RAM) with a smaller hard drive and Windoze that was $240 cheaper. That difference should get a lot of hard drive these days, so you are paying the Windoze tax and then some as usual for Dell.
Something makes me think they just want to avoid the Windoze refund and sucker a lot of people at the same time. Boooo.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
this is good news. Totally bedang.
It looks like they have an almost identical E520 for $240 less - if you vote for M$. No thanks, Michael Dell, if I'm going to pay extra to avoid giving my money to M$, I'll give my money to someone who's not giving it to M$.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I don't see why Dell would want to open up the can of worms of 64-bit XP. Especially if their target customers are not necessarily the most technically advanced. Support costs would be definitely greater due to "issues" (drivers etc.) introduced by 64-bit, which will generally mean a call to tech support.
That is true. That giving a PC without an OS is not opensource. However, on the positive side if a user buys a machine without an OS on it, he/she is not going to spend the retail value to buy the Windows operating system (hopefully). Instead they will either choose to use one of the free operating systems Or... they will tap into the pirated market and install a pirated version of Windows. This will ofcourse increase the current 22% of North America having pirated copy.
I feel that dell is a powerful seller of PC's. This move will give room for the Linux market (hopefully). Thus back to the original posting, it could lead to increase in opensource product use.
Cheers,
Thusjanthan Kubendranathan
For all your coding questions? http://letstalkcoding.com
For all your development needs! http://simtik.com
The E521N configured identically to the E521 is $20 more without Windows, between the warranty difference and the "free" 320GB hard drive upgrade they hide the pricing differences.
You can configure a E521 cheaper, since the monitor isn't required and you don't have to buy a video card. Doesn't really seem like such a great deal to me when you compare apples with apples.
Revenue: $55.908 Billion USD (2006)
Net income: $3.572 Billion USD (2006) (6.39% profit margin)
Source
If you require any more facts, don't hesitate to ask.
BTW, that "Windoze" thing you seem to have going gets funnier every time I see it.
News Flash: if you buy into the bull, you'll be paying more for the "bare" system.
This is marketing *gold*... get saps to pay you more money for less work. There's exactly two differences: (1) no one has to stick a windows OEM label on the machine, and (2) they put an "unimaged" hard drive in the case -- which ultimately makes no difference as that's how the OEM'd hard drives are initially tested. (if it fails imaging, it's trash. Having dealt with bulk hard drives, I can say about 10-20% are *going* *to* *be* *trash*. That's why system builders get deep discounts.)
I've not actually checked to see if there's a BIOS (DMI) difference to prevent installing the Dell OEM image on a "non-windows" Dell box. The Dell OEM VLK doesn't work with any other version of windows, and doesn't work on non-Dell hardware. (I've used that CD to (re)install otherwise legit machines.)
usually wont be installing Linux on there.
Unfortunately those who know about linux and alternative operating systems are us geeks who do it because its our passion. The common user doesn't even know there is anything out there besides Windows or Mac. I am really hoping that in 2007 we can really get the Linux desktop on more regular users and show them thats its not all that difficult to operate. But first, we need software. Especially open source business software (not necessarily free) but businesses need software that works day in and day out, and without it, there is no market. I think if you get Linux in the business world first, the consumer or home user will soon follow... I mean, they all have to go home at the end of the day right?
Relocating to San Francisco / Palo Alto... Hire me?
Any of these without XP?
"one needs to sacrifice a goat and pay some 10 to 20 Euro/Dollars more in order to buy a computer from Dell without a floppy."
That's weird. The ones I looked at wanted to charge a whopping $30 to add a floppy drive.
E521 (with Windows) with 19" LCD was $439 a month ago. You will get instant Dell coupon offers for the one with Windows, any bets on those coupons for the n Series?
Ubuntu 6.10 ran the best on it, but it was still VERY flakey. Crazy USB stuff, do a search on google "E521 and linux"..... Don't buy it. Good thing the one I bought was for a Windows using friend.
> "We won't even give you tech support for the FreeDOS that comes in the package. All we'll do is replace your hardware if it breaks."
If you are buying one of these computers, it's likely that you already know more about your operating system of choice than their technical support does. I doubt that phoning them would help much even if they offered a support contract. They don't seriously expect anyone to use FreeDOS and they can't support every operating system in existence.
There are plenty of companies that offer support contracts for various operating systems if you really do need the extra help.
I'll probably be modded down for this...
You are right just because a PC ships without an OS does not mean it is Linux, Free BSD or even MS Windows compatible although I have a sneaking suspicion that if you pay (win win for Microsoft and vendor) for an OEM version of Windows XP it will work. If you are going to put a Linux distro on it you had better do your homework first (you should do it anyway) otherwise it is going to cost you.
Actually I thought Microsoft had some sort of deal with PC vendors in that they had to ship all PC's with a working OS. Of course they would love it if they could have forced "a working OS" to be "the latest Microsoft working OS" which is what the majority of PC's ship with anyway.
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
Dell is forcing a 19" monitor and larger hard drive on you. They claim it is free but I configured the same system with windows, no monitor, and a 160GB drive for $200 less. I do not need a monitor and do not store lots of audio or video so 160 is plenty. Where is my savings?
I can't find these desktops on dell.ca with no OS. Does dell only offer OSless nonserver/nonworkstation computers to the US?
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
I would actually recommend buying an unformated pc like this and installing a retail version of windows xp for the best user experience. All these cheap computers from Dell, HP, etc... come bundled with so much crap that your computer runs much slower than it should right out of the box. Norton I'm looking right at you!!! Uninstalling some of this worthless software can cause lots of problems with these systems. You don't even get a clean WinXp disk for repairs and reinstalls. No, they have backup disks and/or partitions that reload all the same crap that you spent half a day uninstalling. Of course this will only be necessary if you have to reinstall, which you will with any of the big manufacturer's systems. I'm sorry to rant here. I build my own systems and don't have an issue. However, like many of you I spend lots of time helping out the poor unfortunates who bought that e-machines for $250 with a $250 rebate. Hmmm...why did my cd burner go out? I dont' know, maybe because it was free!
Dell is Exhibiting at the 2007 Southern California Linux Expo on Feb 9-11, 2007 http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale5x/
Dell has been selling these for a while. At least a year ago they were selling them at prices higher than the same windows version. Somebody must of b1tched.
Here are the Windows/Dimension series & price:
Dimension e521
Dimension c521
Dimension E520
My apples to apples comparison for the e521 N series vs. the e521 Dimension(Windows) series is that the Windows system costs $60 more ($699 vs. $759).
For the apples to apples c521 bundle, the Windows Dimension series costs $40 more ($699 vs. $739). For the e520 series, my apples to apples bundle comes out $170 more for the Windows Dimension ($679 vs. $509).
Of course you can not drop some components on some of the N series (in standard Dell variable practice) like the monitor, modem, soundcard, so if all you want to the raw computer, buying the windows system will probably be a better price. What good is dropping the OS if they are going to shove a bunch of hardware you don't need down your throat.
I had priced them out about 1.5 years ago for some toy/test boxes. For what I needed the Windows versions were a better price for the hardware. I ended up getting a cheaper box somewhere else.
At least the C521 (I think) has a broken BIOS that can be fixed by a Windows driver (Dell provided), but with Linux you're left alone.
The problem is that USB devices (keyboard, mouse) will cease to work after some time. Search the web for "dell c521 linux". Dell nicely ignores that there is a problem, nor do they make the effort to tell Linux people how the problem can be fixed (like with Windows).
There's an easy (and legal) way to clean HP/Lenovo/Dell machines from all the crap.
Step 1)
Get ahold of a Windows XP Pro/Home/MCE (the one matching your license) CD Image. Try piratebay.org, or MSDN if you have a subscribtion.
Step 2)
Modify setupp.ini on the CD, so setup will accept OEM keys (just google for setupp.ini)
Step 3)
Install
Step 4)
Enjoy your Games or work
Actually they aren't without anything. They come with FreeDOS. And FreeDOS is open source.
Looks like the Slashdot article lies - it states the hard drive comes unformatted, but the Dell website clearly says they come with FreeDOS installed.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
Actually I thought Microsoft had some sort of deal with PC vendors in that they had to ship all PC's with a working OS.
This certainly used to be the case, but have the various antitrust cases against MS removed that agreement? (The Dell website actually states that they ship with FreeDOS, *not* unformatted, so the answer is probably "no").
http://blog.nexusuk.org
You mean MS BOB? Yeah, most of us saw it and the only good thing that came out of the project was Billy boy found his wife...
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Dell includes a Windows XP installation CD with many of their computers. It won't ask for a license key (but it won't install on a non-Dell PC). While it is specially manufactured for Dell, it does not include any extra crap. Just plain Windows.
You can then install the crap of your choice from the "extras" CD supplied.
Search RapidShare and MegaUpload!
You can't build exactly the same PC with Windows (XP Media) as the hard drive is 320Gb instead of 250Gb, but the FreeDOS version comes out at $40 cheaper. My guess is that at trade price and in quantity, the extra disk space will only be around $10, which gives us a rough price of $30 for a copy of Windows XP Media Center.
Dell were quizzed over this a while ago, when they began offering these machines, but they're in an awkward position as for contractual reasons they can't reveal how much they pay Microsoft per copy of Windows. I'm fairly certain that's why they don't allow you the option to compare apples to apples (as opposed to "Apples") as it were.
I know that after quite a battle a few individuals have managed to get their money back from Dell for copies of Windows they didn't want but were forced to buy. If my memory serves me correctly, they were refunded just over $50, but I suspect that would be a price they'll have agreed with Microsoft to mask the real per unit price they pay.
Truly embracing Open Source would mean them to give you the option of chosing "No Operating System" when you pick the parts for your machine, but I really can't see that happening anytime soon.
Does it? From the website:
Dell's n Series desktop ships with a copy of FreeDosTM , an open-source operating system that is ready to install.If dell.co.uk sell them then they keep them very well hidden. Dell.co.uk *do* sell servers without OS's though, but I can't find any n-series in the UK.
And the true price of the 'Microsoft Tax' is:
$70.
Do they ship out bios upgrades with WinFlash in a InstallSheild compressed windows installer? Do they expect you to run 'super wonder system check' in windows before they believe that you have a real hardware problem? I believe they still do, so this is all a joke.
I think I just cashed out all my cool points.
So even though Dell will allow me to select a PC without Windows on the hard disk, Dell will not let me check out unless the PC I select is Vista-compatible.
I love this quote from the MS instructions to white-box sellers
"Point out the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software. "
When was the last time you got a plain old Windows CD with a new PC purchase?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...
If you weren't buying from Dell, which IMNSHO you shouldn't be, this wouldn't even be an issue. Dell is either for technophobic morons who don't know any better, or corporations who need a large number of machines and who thus tragically possibly do not have much choice. Given that this is Slashdot, I would be expecting the readership here to know how to very easily get a machine without Windows pre-installed...and I'll give you a hint; Dell (and other companies like them) are NOT the way to go about it.
For single machines anyway, and wherever possible for multiples, you buy parts, and you either install yourself, or you get someone other than who you bought said parts from to do it for you. You're only going to pay the Microsoft tax on a pre-packaged PC...not on an individual hard drive. If you're worried about warranty, get one on the individual parts...you generally do anywayz.
Dell are a tool of Microsoft's dominance, and they always have been...Michael Dell hasn't done any more for the world than maintaining the monopolistic status quo. Do NOT reward him for it, since you'll be screwing yourself as well in the process.
We need one of these governments which has switched to Linux to put some pressure on Dell and other companies like them, and to make it clear to them that if they don't have the spine to stand up to Ballmer, they're going to lose a lot of business. Everyone keeps bragging about how many institutions have switched to Linux...Someone needs to get a few of those institutions to start seriously intimidating Dell.
Guys, if I can get my Airport Extreme (broadcom chipset) on a 2004-vintage eMac working after 4 hours (including Google searches), then you must have truly unsupported hardware. Try harder. This includes time to recompile the firmware cutter 'fwcutter' to recognize the checksum of the newer firmware file in MacOS X 10.4.7 and/or 10.4.8. The eMac has a slight advantage is that there is only one choice for the hardware, but it can't be that hard. Now if I could just get power mgmt to work.
Michael Dell is Microsoft's bitch. He always has been. The single main reason why is that computer hardware is a business with razor-thin profit margins. Microsoft know that they only have to raise the price of their operating system by a tiny amount, and suddenly Dell aren't making any money at all per unit any more.
Hence, Dell have to be unbelievably careful in what they do...they could only be trying to sell blank machines because the demand is sufficiently overwhelming for them to take the risk...from that point of view, it's a good sign.
I tried to pull a practical joke on my coworkers by booting their system from an ubuntu live CD. Unfortunately, I've never managed to properly boot an out-of-the-box ubuntu on a Dell, and I've tried booting on several different models. Are Dell computers built on weird undocumented proprietary hardware, or is it a problem with the distro?
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
http://www1.la.dell.com/content/products/compare.a spx/optix_n?c=pr&l=en&s=bsd It's not just the Dimension line that comes sans-Windows.
finishing up a custom system build on their site, i get this error:
Errors:
Windows® Vista does not support Optical Drive selected.
Warnings:
Congratulations! You have chosen all of the required hardware for a Vista Premium experience!
guess i'm outta luck...
this is just a placeholder till i send back my real sig from the future.
An "open source" computer with its case riveted shut! Or have they stopped this madness?
I wanted to point out there are nSeries notebooks as well. Latitude Dx20 line. http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
Dell has also launched a series of TV ads boasting of their Linux support, cheek to jowl with other ads for consumer mainstays like cars and drugs. It's exciting knowing that we've got a computer product that works the way we want (however that is, by changing it ourselves), that is just about to leap into the growth that the mass market fires up.
--
make install -not war
It should be known that although Dell claims these systems work with Linux, there is a BIOS bug that causes USB (keyboard and mouse) to lock up intermittently. Dell claims they don't support operating systems installed by the end user. Here is a link to a very active Dell forum with hundreds of angry Linux customers upset because Linux doesn't operate correctly on their new PC. http://www.dellcommunity.com/supportforums/board/m essage?board.id=sw_other&message.id=54328&view=by_ date_ascending&page=1
Too good to be truth. I was too optimistic, but I wish that in that we could see such news indeed. I wish.
I read through and I was hoping someone else besides me had caught the "ready to install" bit in the article. Bravo!
I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
I just purchased five E521 workstations with XP Home Edition on Monday. Total cost, with a $60 small business coupon was $509 per system. I ran through the E521 config using the FreeDOS option. The system, almost identically configured, was $709. The only upgrade was a 250 GB drive versus a 160 GB drive (I couldn't get a discount by dropping to a 160 GB drive). Even without the coupon, it is $40 cheaper to purchase with Windows XP than without a licensed OS. So, either Microsoft is giving away XP Home Edition, or Dell is screwing their customers.
It would be better to purchase the Windows version, then you could install Linux/Xen and would be licensed to Windows as a guest.
Actually, they don't really offer the source code, due to technical reasons. tar keeps quitting on them with a "Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive" message.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Apparently, you dont realize what your saying. Yes, they don't have to pay MS tax... But they also dont get the "Crapware Revenue" from all the shit loaded on the Windows PCs.
Note: Dell does not support non-Dell installed operating systems.
It is only a naked PC without support of any kind. No drivers no restore disks. You buy it and you are on your own. It is unlikely that Dell even requests support from the Hardware Vendors inside the systems for support.
This is really a system that is available to Systems Integrators (or IT departments) to build into greater deployments where they would reinstall Windows or Linux anyway.
Contrast that to the matching non n-Series system. The level of support that an end user gets for a Windows PC is stark.
Link to customize E520 Link to customize E520n
It was a pain in the ass slogging through 42 pages of Tax Prep software offers and all sorts of crap, but here's the breakdown between the two systems. The E520n is no OS, the E520 is with Windows & the Windows-tax.
(1) The E520n forces you to take a "free" 90 gig HD upgrade. Upgrade the E520 for $40.
(2) The E520n forces you to take a CD/DVD drive combo. Upgrade the E520 for $30.
(3) The E520n forces you to take an nVidia video card. Upgrade the E520 for $40.
(4) The E520n forces you to take a floppy drive. Upgrade the E520 for $30.
(5) The E520n forces you to take a 56k modem. Upgrade the E520 for $20.
(6) The E520n allows you to take a "free" recycling program on your old PC. Upgrade the E520 for $25.
(7) The monitor pricing is screwy, and I think they may have made an error. One way to look at it is that the E520n gets a $60 EXTRA discount if you actively select the "no monitor" option. The other way to look at it is that the E520n pays an extra $60 (or more) penalty if it takes any monitor. I took the no monitor option to pocket the (possibly accidental) $60 bonus.
Once the systems are made as identical as possible, the final prices are $509 for no OS and $704 with OS.
So you "apparantly" get a $195 discount for taking no OS. However on order to get that $195 "discount", you are forced to pay an extra $185 for mostly unwanted overpriced crap. The actual dollars-paid difference is a $10 less for taking no OS (you could get the E520 with no upgrades for $519), but the no-OS comes with various "free stuff" thrown in instead of the OS. In my oppinion the $40 for an extra 90 gig HD ain't bad at all, the $30 for CD/DVD drive combo and $40 for 3D video card upgrade are maybe reasonable or a total waste depending, the $30 for a floppy and the $20 modem and the $25 recycling deal (which by default is left unchecked and unused) are pretty much rape. IMO.
So we still can't pull out a pure price difference for the OS, because Dell picks your pocket for an uncertain amount of money by forcing you to take that mixed bag of "upgrades" in order to get no OS, but it does look like you are getting a decent discount by taking no OS. No more games with an "OS-free" computer actually costing more than an identically configured Windows system. However a good chuck of that discount only crops up if you actively select the non-monitor option. If you take the default monitor, or if you switch to any of the other offered monitors, you basically get hosed for $60 for takeing no-OS and a monitor. If the $240 discount for the no monitor option is a mistake, or if you take the monitor, then no-OS is still a discount but not nearly as signifigant.
The other differences betwen the systems that cound not be avoided are that the Windows system comes with 6 free months of AOL (value $0), comes with free Adobe Acrobat reader (value $0), comes with free Corel photo software (value $0), comes with free Yahoo Music jukebox (value $0), and 1 year of tech support. That tech support *is* valuable, bot to you as a buyer and as a cost to Dell. If you take the no-OS option, they stiff you on the tech support. The money they pocket there in revoking tech support is signifigant and takes a signifigant bite out of any no-Windows-discount that they are actually giving you.
There is one final difference that I'm not sure if it is a real difference. The no-OS version lists "10/100/1000 Ethernet" whereas the Windows version lists "10/100 Ethernet". If the 10/100/1000 Ethernet is actually a different and better network card, then that maybe that is valuable addition in the non-OS system. However I suspect... and I may easily be wrong here... that it is the same card in both s
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Except my last. An emergency happened and I needed a computer "yesterday". So I checked out Dell, didn't care for their build options, and got a Gateway.
WORST... COMPUTER... EVER.
My question is this: I don't want to buy windows. I want to choose my motherboard (Abit), harddrive controller (SATA 4 drives at least), graphics card (ATI with tv out AND in), sound card (something with digital optical audio out as well as RCA in). But I don't want to build it myself. I've got better things to do nowadays.
So what are my options? I hate dell, and I hate gateway. Where else can I get a computer that has a 1-year hardware warrantee, custom built to my specs, sent to me FOR A GOOD PRICE?
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As I customize an E521n, I notice that you have to buy a monitor and a video card. (These have on-board video.) So it comes out about $170 more with items I didn't want. (I'll probably buy a vid card with less markup some day from newegg.)
Also, there's a warning that the "16x DVD+/-RW Drive" is not Vista compatible. Yet they sold me one with my E521 that was. !?
If Chaos Theory has taught us anything, it's that we must kill all the butterflies.
the windows systems come with a smaller hardrive(80G as opposed to 250 GIG) it also has less memory(.5g instaed of 1 gig.) The OS one comes with a monitor, the windoes doesn't.(it's 250 cheaper with no monitor.)
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Having made one of the above posts about it not being cheaper, last time I checked. (Which was a while ago) I feel compelled to weigh in against the "never buy from Dell" points above.
I'm not a person who believes corporations should engage in profit motive absent all other considerations, but Dell can't possibly afford to go to war with Microsoft - Dell's entire business model is inexpensive Windows computers, and that depends on having inexpensive Windows licenses. I certainly think they should try harder to do more, but as long as Linux is a very niche product and Dell can't sell OS X they can't lose their beneficial Windows licensing. There's plenty other ways to push Dell to be better.
The following applies to things purchased from Dell Small Business - I've heard pretty bad stories about Home sometimes.
For a single high end desktop computer, I think buying components makes a lot of sense. For a low end computer that's supposed to have Windows, it's hard to beat Dell's prices, at least around here. For a low end computer that's not supposed to have Windows, it's STILL hard to beat their prices, even if it happens to come with Windows. (I'm defining "low end" as "whatever the cheapest new Dells are at the time. Some vendors have MUCH slower stuff...)
The hardware is cheap - but not finicky; it breaks nicely and replaces nicely. And 3 year onsite warranties are relatively affordable, which I wouldn't care as much about if the computers were all somewhere I was physically near all the time, but when they're in a random office somewhere that can be important. And they come and repair it without a struggle.
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If you try and order one when you get to the end it tells you there is a conflict with the order because the selected hardware will not work with Vista. You can not even select Vista on these boxes. That is only after they try to sell you a lot of windows add ons and windows games. I have been IMing, and on the phone with Dell now for a while, and no one can find a way to place an order for these models.
So, you'll buy a $650 - $750 device that is unsupported by the retailer. Brilliant!!!
It is surprising this sales practice is legal, but even more surprising there are people that buy into it. I am sure someone at Dell is laughing all the way to the bank.
Look, Dell has a bootable hardware diagnostics CD-ROM, but you're better buying hardware from an OEM who will support the way you use the device. You should support OEMs who support the Linux OS. (Yes, these OEMs do exist. I can provide links if you can't find it through Google.)
Ironically, the above statement is at the top of the page.
One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
It has been confirmed that earth is not flat.
Seriously, Dell is doing this for several years. The only problem is that the computer without windows cost just the same (or in some cases higher) as the computers with windows preinstalled.
actually i just bought some, they come with FreeDOS.. which is GPL.. it may not be installed, but technically the pc comes w/ open source software.
Bought one of these "bargain" systems and had no end of trouble with it. Google/Search for "c521 linux issues" or "e521 linux issues" and you will see crashes, issues with the dual core processors, and USB keyboard and mice hangs. Nothing but trouble and Dell makes you jump through hoops to get your monies back. Went through 3 months of Dell Hell for this crap. Basically, the boards are lacking APIC logic hardware, so if you boot Linux without NOAPIC, you will not see 2 processor cores. If you boot with NOAPIC, you will see two cores, but have unstable USB or Network. Take your money and buy parts online. You'll pay a little more, but get a better system. Words "bargain" I ever encountered.
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So I went through and tried configuring one of these systems, but I couldn't add it to my cart because of 'Compatibility Problems', which the Dell website was even kind enough to explain to me so that they could be fixed and I could continue adding the machine to my cart. The 'problems' it reported to me were:
Errors:
Windows® Vista does not support Optical Drive selected.
Warnings:
You have selected Vista Premium Operating System with a Basic system configuration. To fully realize Vista Premium's capabilities you need to select at least 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM Memory.
And no, I did not change the OS selection, I checked twice that it was still set to 'FreeDOS'.
Has anybody followed the configuration links?
As soon as you do that three trouble some things happen:
- The page starts complaining about a DVD drive not supported by Vista
- It complains about not enough dual channel memory for Vista
- It fills your back menu with all Dell-Shop links so you can never go back.
And they try to convince me to buy one of those machines?
Busy helping non technical users of OpenOffice.org - http://plan-b-for-openoffice.org/
I just bought an HP Pavillion dv2135LA , I installed ubuntu edgy, and it was plug and play.
After initial install, I opened the eth1 device properties, entered the essid and password, and got connected.
Bluetooth was just as easy, video and everything works ok.
The best part is that if you get the right combo of parts it will say this in the side pane:
Errors:
Windows® Vista does not support Optical Drive selected.
Warnings:
Congratulations! You have chosen all of the required hardware for a Vista Premium experience!
If I am not running windows how is that an "error" ? Also That is sure one dire warning.
The computers are sold with FreeDos, which is open source.
No, I will not work for your startup
I've been complaining about this with Dell for years now.
The answer I've been given is that they have a standard desktop Windows OS image that, by default, they put onto every hard drive.
Changing the system to FreeDOS requires "customization" of your system, which translates into some poor tech's time, which translates to a higher cost.
It kind of makes sense, but not really.
If you're buying a server, the choice is more obvious:
No OS: $0
Windows 2003 Server w/ 5 CALs: $799
WIndows 2003 Server Web Version: $349
RHES4 w/ 1y subscription: $349
SuSE ES10 w/ 1y subscription: $280
So the conspiracy questions now become:
"Why does RHES happen to cost exactly the same as Windows Server (with no CALs)?"
"Does SuSE have a deal to be the low cost option, or is RedHat price-matching Microsoft?"
I'm sure that most people posting here know how to install Linux on their machines. So, I would say, quit bitching, and just let Linux use your whole hard drive. Problem solved, at least for private computers where installing Linux would cause problems for others.
I think that pre-built Linux systems are good... for anyone. I have dealt with it before installing Debian on a few desktops and a laptop, dual-boot with WinXP (to try it out, and I liked Debian better) and having a hell of a time trying to get my wi-fi adapters working, getting the screen resolution at where I wanted it, among other initial configuration "issues." Right now, I have the desktop that I'm using connected to my router with an Ethernet cable, and the laptop will not connect to the Internet, and KPPP would refuse to look anywhere for the modem, not at the ../modem or the ../ttyS0 locations.
So, IMHO, I think that a ready-to-use Unbuntu desktop (or laptop for that matter) with pre-configured options would be good for a person like myself. After all, I could spend about $20 at the grocery store for a 12-pack of Red Bull to help me stay awake to keep me focused on getting it fixed... or spend roughly $504 for a good desktop at system76 that has a Linux distro pre-installed and the wi-fi working.
Maybe it's me, but I'm good at fixing minor hardware issues. Maybe I'm not as good building an entire system. Dell selling No-OS desktops may not be news, but pre-configured Linux desktops are news to me.
The link to the no-windows machine GOES to the windows machine...
x ?c=us&cs=19&kc=6V440&l=en&oc=DDCWAN3&s=dhs
The other link goes no-where now...
odd...
Supposed to show the non-windows.... but doesn't...
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp
In fact, a search for E520n shows no results from Dell at all...
Yea it's kinda like the difference between buying a car to learn about cars
and buying all the parts you need to make a car to learn about cars
Its also the easier way to convert your mom to Linux, because if it shows up that way its not something you personaly 'messed up.'
Kindof ironic if you think about it in the context of Linux vs. Windows and what is actually borken.
Money is the root of all evil?