Slashdot Mirror
Why You Can't Buy a Naked PC
ZDOne writes "A piece up on ZDNet looks at the issue of naked PCs. ZDNet UK phoned around all the major PC vendors and not one of them would sell a machine without Windows on it. IT professionals are being forced to adopt Microsoft's operating systems — even if they tell their PC supplier they want a system free of Microsoft software. On the other hand, even if it's almost impossible to buy a PC without an operating system installed, companies like Dell and HP are now committed to supporting Linux as well. 'Murray believes there is a market for Linux in the UK but is also aware of the issues facing any large supplier who wants to make Linux boxes available. "It means diverting production lines and that is a lot of money and so we have to prove the business case," he said. However, he made it clear that he is enthusiastic about the idea and wants to make it work. "We just have to show it is worthwhile," he said.'"
I don't get it. You get the Win for "free" (or less) due to the nagware installed. Why not just get the pc with linux-capable components, let the advertizers pay for your unused copy of windows, and install your favorite flavor of linux (or whatever you plan on using)?
I have yet to get a new pc I didn't re-image or install from scratch anyway. If I used linux I'm certain I wouldn't like the vendor's setup any more than I like their win installs. Too many custom setting to get these kinds of things to work they way we use them. If the windows is effectively free, and you have to do a reinstall anyway, why not just ignore it?
Oh, right - it's far more appropriate to whine about it.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I blame Bush, the Religious Right and the Christian Coalition. As soon as you talk about anything being naked, they're hitting the speed dial to call their lawyers...
My blog
The article doesn't really present anything new. We all know the major reasons for it are because of money and pressure from M$.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
At first when I read this I thought it said "Why You Can't Buy A PC Naked".... dell.com take clothes off oh a Naked PC... I gotcha
"If it has screws, it was meant to be taken apart."
If Dell or Gateway won't sell a naked PC, then let that be their folly if such strategy fails. In the meantime, do a bit of research and find smaller vendors that will sell a PC sans OS. Here's a small company that sells many brands of laptops with no OS by default: www.powernotebooks.com. If it wasn't for the Intel Macbook line coming out, I would have gone with something from them.
Put your money where your mouth is, do business with those small companies and they'll eventually become big ones if the demand is great enough. Dell once started out as a small company and selling computers with Windows worked for them.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
You can buy servers from Dell with no pre-installed operating system. I know 'cause I've recently bought two.
Interestingly enough, when you choose the no operating system option, the server suddenly costs $799 less than with Windows 2003 R2 installed.
I don't know how you do math where you are from, but where I'm from $799 isn't free.
Oh, and that's U.S. dollars, just to clarify.
Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
Can someone tell me where/how I can buy an Apple-branded computer without an Apple-supplied O/S?
Anyone above the age of 18 should be allowed to decide for themselves whether they want to see a naked pc. Wait...
Dell sells the n series with FreeDOS. That's about as close to a naked PC as you can get. They also sell workstation-class systems (the Precision series) with Linux pre-installed, we buy them at work. You can even download drivers that work from their site, as I found out recently with a Precision 690 running WS4. Their sound drivers went in, and after removing the included non-functional driver everything worked great. I can't complain. HP also sells Linux systems, and we have a few.
Aside from those vendors, and numerous others that specialize in Linux, I build my own systems for home use. Not a one of them has ever come with Windows.
GPL: Free as in will
I think it's a bit more complicated. Sure we know that, historically, Microsoft has engaged in anti-competitive practices like "the Microsoft Tax". But I would think that Dell, HP, and the others are probably equally scared of people like my friend "Joe". He's cheap as (fill in your preferred perjorative here), and if he could save a few bucks buying a PC without an OS he'd do it. Problem is, he is not tech savvy in the least - so he'd get some cut-rate version of Windows one way or the other, try - and fail - to install it, then spend hours on the phone with Dell arguing over "why their computer is broken". I've tried helping him with tech problems over the phone before, and I'll tell you - it's like pulling teeth getting just basic information from him.
When the vendors claim they don't want to sell naked PCs because of the potential support nightmare, I believe them. It's not the Slashdot crowd that's the problem; but there are 100 "Joe"s for every 1 Slashdotter.
#DeleteChrome
A medium sized company I used to work for sold PCs and parts. If you did not want to pay for Windows, then they wanted to sell you parts so you could build the PC. This became policy after they got real cozy with MS and their service reps came to visit. They went from being a Red Hat partner ( in Raleigh NC) to no naked PCs/ no linux sold, installed or serviced.
Generally though, if someone really wants a naked pc, they are probably capable of building it from parts. MS just seems to try to make sure that building it yourself is the most common option.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Ok, that's not a good answer for everybody. I suspect I am not alone here in this philosophy and I usually save about $400+ for quite a bit more then Fry's the model of the week. If something breaks I just replace it or upgrade it.
I am about to send my Pavilion laptop back to HP for service, it will take a week and a half and the only reason is that it will cost me nothing in time or materials to put in a new motherboard.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
What the summary actually wants to do is to buy a naked pc from some well-known pc resellers at a price below a Windows-equipped pc.
There's a million reasons why this wont happen. Most of which comes down to the expense to do so in a big pc reseller like dell. What role does the pc reseller have left?
In this _very_ specific case it is the consumer that has to do a little searching for a naked pc.
And yes, it will be more than an os-equipped PC. Microsoft, for once, is not directly to blame.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
It's kind of like lingerie. A lot of the fun is getting it naked. If it just shows up to your door without anything, it just seems too clinical and a little tawdry.
Yep. I'm a geek.
Best Windows Freeware
I think the first thing that must be changed is the concept that you are "buying a naked pc". That implies that without the operating system, the PC is naked! Why isn't a PC without it's case screwed on considered a naked PC?
Basically, vendors don't seem willing to believe that people have the know-how to buy some hardware and then somehow make it work, which kind of makes sense. For example, I'm sure few people would buy a PC without the BIOS installed, and Dell and the like aren't going to cater their huge business to the hobbyists who would flash a PC with their own BIOS, for example.
On the other hand, why they can't make a small stipulation to sell X% of units raw to folks that are DIY'ers, is beyond me.. they could even sell it with a disclosure that they don't support ANY operating system in their contract, however their hardware has been tested with XYZ operating systems.
-6d
The big computer companies probably don't want to take tech support and customer service calls from grandmothers complaining their Windows apps won't work because they picked a Linux distro by mistake. "Oh hey! $100 off the price!"
At least in some countries you can order a dell without OS. They don't mension it on their site, but if you order by phone it is possible if you order for a company, I don(t know how the policy is for home-users.
Yes, there's no installation of crapware or anything, but there are two other factors in play that make it easier and more cost-effective for them to be Windows-only. First, I'd bet they're using disk images and not installing everything by hand. Second, they have a very standardized, assembly-line-esque process, and any deviation from that is going to slow down their operations. Between the comparatively low demand and pressure from Microsoft, they have no real incentive to try too hard to offer Linux.
Sadly Windows == PC to most people. Maybe someday it will change. I hope so.
MythTV is getting quite mature but since you can't "naked" version of any "Home Theater PC" offered by any vendors it makes it very hard to build them for anyone but yourself. You are invariably forced to build each one of them from scratch so each "version" is subtly different. In some ways, "do it yourself" is great for cutting costs but in other ways, like "gift giving" it becomes very hard to justify.
For Christmas I bought a system preloaded with eComStation. I paid no Microsoft tax. All you have to do is support THE vendors of good quality products. Like buying high quality Snapper lawn movers instead the disposable Wal-Mart ones.
(The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/102/open_snap
You can avoid the Microsoft tax too.
eComStation user group - http://www.os2voice.org/
eComStation - http://www.ecomstation.com/
eComStation preloaded
http://www.curtissystemssoftware.com/preloads.htm
Also Linux preloads
SUSE preloaded
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS7778908329.htm
Fedora preloaded
http://www.emperorlinux.com/
1) Form a company
2) Assemble PC hardware
3) Don't licences Microsoft cr*p OS
4) Offer it for sale online
5) Profit!!!!
Roll your own, or go to a local comp shop, have them roll it, or go to one of a million sites online and purchase it.
Why should Dell, Gateway, or anyone else have to offer you this? How does there refusal to do so "force" IT professionals into Windows?
I really don't get the logic. Maybe they should, maybe if they thought it was profitable, they would There's no money in it. The site you are reading is owned by a failed linux box provider, they should know more than anyone why Dell doesnt promote or sell boxes with Linux.
But why should they have to? Why do you think you have a right to go to Dell and ask them for this?
Should EB Games have to carry Neo Geo titles? I like my Neo Geo. Lots of people do, there's a very active community behind it. Whats the difference?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I buy lots of bits from Novatech, a company based in the south of England. They list their pre-built PCs with a "naked" option and are transparent about the price of having Windows pre-installed.
Besides, when building for a non-Windows PC, one has to exercise extra care to ensure that one gets hardware that will be supported by the OS one intends to install. Unfortunately, Linux just doesn't have nearly as much vendor buy-in for hardware support as MicroSoft Windows. Thus, while many pre-assembled PC's may have hardware suitable for use with a non-MicroSoft OS it's still easier IMHO to just "bare-bones" an appropriate system together. YMMV.
While M$ is the biggest one, there are other software vendors who are paying Dell/Gateway/HP etc to put their program on your new computer.
A PC wholesale to say CompUSA or Fry's is usually about half or less what you pay that means a $800 laptop was bought for maybe $350 into Dell's pocket. Not much is it?
Dell doesn't pay the M$ tax, Microsoft pays Dell to put the OS on it, so that $350 may have just jumped to $380/$400 then there is Adobe, and tons of other demos and what not. Maybe they have moved that revenue back up to about $800 by the time they are done. I had to wipe off a full gig of trailers from movies including 'Babe, Pig in the city' (in 2006 no less). PC vendors make a tidy profit from these add-ins.
The rest I leave to your imagination.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
The PC sellers don't make much money on the hardware, they make their big bucks on support and extended warranties.
They are too "Linux ignorant" to support Linux, IE field tech support calls, hell they barely can handle supporting M$. But your typical PC owner is dumber than the cue card readers at the tech support centers and they think the person reading cue cards in India or Pakistan are GODS of technology. What's the typical solution to a PC problem? Put in the system restore disc, wipe it clean and install a fresh copy of M$. What a wonderful solution. Solving Linux problems that way isn't acceptable and reading cue cards for Linux won't work either, it requires someone that knows what they are doing to solve a Linux problem over the phone.
Dell and companies like them rake in huge $$$ fielding calls for the M$ boxes they peddle and for selling extended warranties. I know several people that recently bought new Dell's and they dropped an extra $500 for priority support. One person had a mobo die and Dell sent someone out to replace it the next day.
That was fine for them, for Dell, warranties are a crap shoot, just as all "insurance" is.
As long as they can make money from your misery you'll never see naked PC's being offered by the big companies. Their business model is a parasitical one.
Mac: I'm a PC too, just dont tell the elitist douchebags who own me - they shelled out a lot of cash, and think they bought something "high end". Also, I go with your drapes and swing both ways. Let me just pop up my collar and we'll buy some songs on iTunes, I know *ALL* the indie bands.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
But they don't pay a per-unit price for Windows so it wouldn't make any difference to them.
A lot of smaller places that do custom PCs will allow you to specify "No OS" as an option. They'll usually let you remove any other component as well, if for some reason you object to having a processor included.
You are assuming that the amounts paid by the entities described
are passed on to the consumer in some way. It is entirely possible
that the amounts find their way, in part or in whole, to the
companies bottom line instead.
emt 377 emt 4
Every time I buy a new laptop it has Windows pre-installed.
My solution is simple: the first thing I do is to put up an online auction with no starting price or reserve price and every single time I've gotten 90% of the official OEM price or better even when there are dozens of sellers.
Then I simply remove the license sticker and mail it to the winner - 'problem' solved.
Getting $100 back from a $600 laptop gives a nice discount too.
Is reselling software forbidden in some countries or why this simple option hasn't come up yet?
Capitalization is the difference between "Helping your uncle jack off a horse" and "Helping your uncle Jack off a horse"
Disclaimer: At the risk of this sounding like a plug, no I don't work for JNCS.
I buy my Office's PCs from http://www.jncs.com/ because they're local, I can swap and return parts myself, and I always get high-quality, stable components that beat the heck out of what Dell puts in their PCs. They also offer systems without OSs.
I would suggest finding a local retailer you trust and that works for your business. The service is better, the PCs are better, and the warranties are better. Support your local enthusiast PC shop.
I live in the UK and have recently purchased a 'naked' Laptop from Transtec. I also had the option to have it supplied with SuSE. The naked and SuSE machines were cheaper than the Windows ones (once you get the hardware configuration the same). I understand that they will supply desktops without Windows as well.
They are a smaller supplier, but not tiny. They are an approved supplier for some central government departments.
If the big companies don't want to sell me a naked or Linux machine then that is fine by me. I will take my custom elsewhere and they are the ones who will lose out.
I'd wager that there's not enough consumer demand (or business consumers) for naked PC's. but there are other factors as well. one, there is but one windows, and dell, et al., can taylor it to their machines and make it work at least out of the box. no, they don't have the control over it as they would linux, but they have enough. when you screw with the machine, it's you screwing with it. and help is much easier, and cheaper, when there's a single OS. imagine having to figure out the distro, the kernel, etc. it'd be a disaster.
that linux is "free" in all senses for you and me, doesn't make it free for dell, etc. to add an OS would be very expensive and to provide none (for every comptuer), would terribly diminish their product. the OS for dell is a complementary good without which, they couldn't sell their product. not to defend MS or dell, but the truth is, MS is well within their rights to demand that dell sell a copy with every machine to get a volume discount, ability to modify it, etc. but the bottom line is that there just isn't enough interest to justify naked PC's. however, notice Dell's server line. you can get them, which ought to tell you something.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
I switched from Linux to OSX, mainly because I liked the Macbook Pro. No regrets at all. (I still run linux [my own debian-ish flavor] on my home and office desktops, and my music studio PC is Windows XP, for reasons related to my choice of applications.)
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I've never had a problem with purchasing naked Dells, both workstations and servers. I've always just explained to the phone sales person that the system is replacing an existing (but crashed or in the process of crashing) system. They've always sent naked systems this way.
ITX computers are the perfect example of a PC with few, if any hidden revenue.
Thanks.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
In 1994 I tried to buy a bare desktop PC from Dell or Gateway. Since it was to replace my old dead IBM PC (dead after 13 months), I didn't need a new OS. But both Dell and Gateway insisted I buy a new license of Windows anyway.
These days when I buy a laptop, it comes with Windows. When the laptop dies, I can't transfer the license to another PC. They simply don't even provide OS or recovery CDs/DVDs.
So much for the DOJ's Anti-trust agreement with Microsoft. Nothing has changed.
So what Dell client machines connect to these servers? Do those need Windows? See www.dell.com/nseries. No, they don't need Windows.
I'm not sure why this always comes up; Dell has been selling these for years.
1. By your computers wherever you want - Buy bulk get discount.
2. By harddrives from wherever you want - Buy bulk get discount. *
3. Swap out hard drives
4. Install whatever operating system you want
5. New PC = Naked PC
6. Sell old hardrives on eBay = Profit
* You could also just completely erase their hardrives, but buying things and putting them in PC's give the tech guys something to do.
The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains
Because I bought it used. It wasn't the very latest and greatest, but it works just fine, thanks. And yes, they really did sell it to me without an OS.
What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
If you are that worried about getting a naked pc why not just buy the components you want and build one from scratch? Makes sense to me anywho.
For a minute I thought I had to get dressed to buy a PC.
Leave the gun, take the cannoli -- Clemenza, The Godfather
A company I used to work for would always order Dell systems because we got good pricing and decent service. Of course, the systems that came in would be wiped clean with a fresh image of Windows 2000 Pro with our volume license. Effectively we ended up double-paying for Windows to get what we needed.
There is a difference between "insightful" and "inciteful" other than spelling.
at least in Germany. There still are lots of medium - sized PC traders ("box shifters") and when I go to buy a computer there I pick a base model, change power supply, hd, ram etc and the OS is just another of those features, if I want it I buy it, else: no problem.
It's another story at the "media market"-type big retailers but I dont have to buy there and really, those who do won't want anything else but win* and in fact deserve to suffer from vista.
Dell, Gateway, HP? Read about them...
605413? Yes, it's a prime.
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/e 510_nseries?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
They didn't look very hard I found a link in the first google hit to this searching for dell PC no operating system. Can I get a job writing poorly researched articles for ZDNet?
I don't know if the author is counting servers or only workstations but the school district I work for buys servers OS less all the time. We can get windows cheaper than even the discount rate from say Dell or Gateway through an educators discount if we want it and this lets us scratch install and configure the OS to our desire.
/. anymore?)
I would imagine the big name vendors make a huge haul selling "default" space to anti-virus, web-page, ISP and other providers with pre-installed M$-windows on desktop systems. I also imagine microshaft is leaning on them some to keep windows installed...they used to use a racket where they'd tell vendors to either install windows on every system or pay a jacked up price to allow competition...something like that anyway.
my $.02 (why doesn't the cent sign, alt+0162, work on
...quicker, easier, more seductive the darkside is...but more powerful, it is not.
You'd think. So why does every seller of pre-installed linux desktops that I've found sell them with a video card that requires proprietary drivers?
In fact, with a few minutes of googling around I couldn't find a single pre-installed linux box that advertised integrated intel video--despite the fact that it's more than adequate for non-gaming use, and it's the only current option I know of that is fully supported out of the box by X.org.
All I want is hardware that's supported by a completely free/open source operating system....
Or similar vendors will sell you a Naked PC. Its just that some assembly will be required.
Ummm, no offense intended but you don't need a 'second computer' or 'broadband' to get your hands on an operating system. What in the world do you think people did in the 'olden days' when they bought computers which came with no operating system OR modem.
The company I worked for several years ago did nothing but build computers to order. We would, in the blink of an eye, sell you a machine without an OS on it. And before you go saying "a small outfit like that couldn't possibly supply some of the larger corporations" we, with a shop of maybe 4-5 guys (working long hours and weekends; but it was worth the bonus), built enough PCs to replace the entire fleet at a huge, international engineering firm, in a year, all the while continuing to supply our normal, small-to-medium-business clients, and our other big client (a national food distributor). So it can be done. If you want a system without an OS these are the types of places to go to. You may not get the cool, over engineered cases, but it will be the case you pick out, the motherboard you pick out, the CPU...etc. Plus custom built images. You have a particular OS setup you want to use with with the apps you want? With SMS or products like Ghost, every PC you receive will be just about ready to plug onto the network out of the box. And everything will be an off the shelf component, easy to replace if need be. It just amazes me more companies don't go with the smaller, white box suppliers.
We too buy Dell servers bare or with a Linux preload (which we flash and reinstall anyway so we can load the RPMs we want).
... for a consumer machine, the only thing Microsoft provides is a licnese and a sticker, and Dell only pays $20 or so a machine.
The cost of the Windows 2003 Server license is indeed about $800. However, the article is about desktop/laptop Windows licenses
Servers are a whole other world...
1. There is much more demand for Linux on servers
2. Generally, people like us who buy them know what they are doing
3. There isn't a need for drivers for a whole bunch of cheapo Tiwansese hardware like USB webcams and printers
Dell has been offering Linux either bundled with, or pre-installed with, on **servers** for a long time - they even have a 3 way agreement with Red Hat and Oracle to certify particular configurations and support each others products without any finger pointing.
Well they usually PAID for them, or pirated them from friends. The fact of the matter is that their friend had to have a computer to make the copies with.
Any etymology there? My poor sheltered life.
d .php?tid=17092#pid223449
Plenty of hits:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Waaahhhmbulance
But more with this(suggested!) spelling:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Waaahmbulance
and an apparent early mention(with hhh spelling):
http://www.onlineonslaught.com/OOForums/viewthrea
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Your google-fu needs work
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
http://www.pcwb.com/catalogue/item/VALPC017
Cel D 331 2.66GHz 512MB 80GB DVD Linux £149 + VAT
From PC World, the UK's largest PC retailer.
They weren't really trying, were they?
... they don't want to let a PC go out the door without an operating system on it. That lets them prove that it works, and it gives them SOME means of troubleshooting
So ship it with a live CD with diagnostic tools for the PC and all its peripherals. You could then build boxes that can be tested in the field without reference to the OS (if any) installed on it - and gain economy of scale by building a single platform that can be shipped with any of a number of OSes - or bare - without impacting your hardware support costs.
You can build the live CD on Linux, *BSD, freeDOS, or some other free and open OS and avoid paying any OS tax on that, too. Once built, you just have the mass-production per-CD cost - pennies.
Of course that means it can't test peripherals that don't have non-Windows drivers. Boo hoo! But you'd normally have windows installed on any box with Windows-only peripherals. Meanwhile, if you want to do that multi-OS box it would likely have only FOSS-supported peripherals, which would create an incentive for component manufacturers to arrange FOSS support - by opening their own drivers, supplying enough information for others to write drivers, or at least publish binary blobs under a redistribution-OK license.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
"IT professionals are being forced to adopt Microsoft's operating systems"
... anyone need a real Professional?
What? These 'IT Professionals' can't wipe a harddrive?
Really, who writes this stuff? And if they really can't um... gosh
I easily bought a PC without windows. Just stop going to the big guys, go to the small guys that will give you what you want. Eventually the big guys will learn. We saw the same thing with cars. American car companies finally learn stuff when enough of their business goes to Japanese car makers.
My guess is that the writer could not find any PCs without MS Windows, because he typed the wrong search terms into Google. There is no shortage of 'bare bones PCs' on the web.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
I just called the company I got my HP system from and said I didn't agree with the terms of service of Windows and they gave me like a $100 credit back. Not the full value but hey, its something.
Bryan
No-OS, Computers without Operating System (for those who want to install their own Operating System):
http://www.abestpc.com/laptop.htm Laptops
http://www.adamant.com/ Desktops Laptops
http://www.avadirect.com/ Desktops Laptops
http://www.com4.nl/ Desktops
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/ Desktops Laptops
http://www.goldenelectronics.co.uk/ Desktops
http://www.hypersonic-pc.com/ Desktops Laptops
http://www.ion-technologies.com/ Laptops
http://store.madtux.org/ Desktops/
http://www.laptopchoice.com.au/ Laptops
http://www.mtechlaptops.com/ Laptops
http://www.mwave.com/ Laptops
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/ Desktops Laptops
http://www.pcsforeveryone.com/ Laptops
http://www.powernotebooks.com/ Laptops
http://www.rjtech.com/ Laptops
http://www.topmicrousa.com/laptops-notebooks.html Laptops
http://www.unitedmicro.com/ Desktops Laptops
http://xnbs.com/ Laptops
http://www.xtremenotebooks.com/ Laptops
http://www.zepto.com/ Laptops
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/
I find this very funny since Generic OEM System Builders such as myself that have absolutely no ties to MS can create naked PC's all day. There is nothing that MS can do to force me to offer their products.
Yep. Thanks for the tip! Those are cute. The 1G memory limitation is a bit of a bother for my purpose, though. Hm.
This does indeed happen, when MS next compains about piracy ask them just how many double copies are out there.
The worsed I personally seen is NOT just the above of every machine having two licenses but actually THREE! One XP license set for EVERY machine, the original Dell license, Server 2003 licenses for every server EVEN the one running linux.
SO the linux machine had THREE unused MS licenses.
No wonder MS hates piracy, they know how lucrative it is.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
"Dell, HP and Lenovo claimed it was possible to buy naked PCs from their company -- but our attempts to follow their guidance to buy one proved impossible."
Tag lost or not installed.
The issue is that the market is to small.
The only person that would want to buy a 'naked'(AKA Bare Bones) PC from the big manufacturers is someone who doesn't know much abuot hardware and doesn't want any operating system.
Who the hell is in that segment?
Large organizations get a better deal if the machine comes with windows(Windows machines are cheaper), even if they wipe it to put there own flavor of windows on it.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You know, you don't HAVE to buy a machine from Dell or anyone else. Someone with enough motivation to learn how can purchase the proper parts and build their own PC or server.
It's really not too hard to do, and if you plan it out and buy some components on sale, you can probably do the same or better on price than if you bought a system... sure there's your time, but it's an investement in yourself..at worst, hobby time.
Then you're free to install your OS of choice.
Any if you really want to, you can keep costs down by cannibalizing parts you already have...CD/DVD drives for example have not changed much in a few years..and are not likely to; keyboards, mice, monitors, etc.
Huh?
As long as everything is running MS Windows, everything is fine. A machine breaks, it can easily be replaced by another machines, if that the other machine has differenet parts. The PC is just an interchangeable cog in a vast network, and it makes little sense to spend real money on an individual cog. However, as the specifications of the cog becomes more tight, the cost of the cog increases. It is no longer possible to use the cheapest crap available. It is no longer possible to accept slightly out of true products. Now things must work, and we are no longer manufacturing to a throw away spec.
As long as the mentality of *nix community is that it is a cheap solution, MS will continue to sell. MS is a cheap solution, it is a known solution, and and it is a solution that provides the millions of cogs needed for the information age. However, if people are willing to spend $100 more for a better product, then there is a change. We know that people are not willing to spend more for a better product becuase we all hear the whining about the high cost of macs, or that Dell wants more money for *nix box, or how unfair it is that the box built from the stuff found in the dumpster won't boot *nix.
For *nix to succeed, it must be seen as a premium product, something that will cost more, but will deliver better performance. Have a hardware consistent set of machines must be a benifit to an IT department. I have worked in all sorts of places, and the IT field is the only one where no one wants to pay to get the best quality. Most would rather buy the cheapest thing and then work out the problems later.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
I'm not sure what the big fuss is, first of all, if you're a linux user, wouldn't you prefer to install your distro-of-choice yourself rather than whatever sort of nonsense a company like dell is going to put on it (remember that the windows they stick on their machines are filled with crapware) also if your really computer savvy don't you build your own from parts? if not, goto a more mom and pop type shop where you get something worth your money and upgradeable. I guess I don't see the problem with these companies catering towards their target market: People who don't care.
Browse at -1 to keep an eye out for abuses.
http://www.xxodd.nl/shop.php (formerly known as Promedion) sell notebooks and desktops both with and without Windows. You wan Windows? It will cost you at least 77.31 euros extra.
Here's the secret to immortality:
why not just buy the parts?
i mean, you don't have to buy windows when you just buy the motherboard...
not trying to be a troll...
i mean, it's not that hard to build your own.
and any IT department should be able to build their own and save a ton of money for their company while at it.
lots of local shops will build you a bare PC too.
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com
From Dell. £40 ($80) for XP Media Centre I don't need or want on my new XPS.
.... pause .... "Sir, it is not normal, but on this occasion as you are such a good customer of Dell [nb: first laptop I've bought from Dell in five years] we will today happily offer you a refund.")
Thanks, Dell.
(It took about three minutes. "Hello, this is Dell. How may I help you?" "My new XPS 1720 came with Windows, which I have not used. Instead I installed an alternative operating system -" "Linux, right?" "Yes!" "Hold on, Sir, I have to speak with my manager"
## NB: Comment here
...I haven't started my new business yet... Linux is coming to a new notebook vendor real soon now More details coming soon...
A friend recently got a laptop from BestBuy and they asked me to set it up for them. As I removed all of the 30-day trials for anti-virus, Office, DVD player, photo editors, video editors, AOL, music stores, various online services, etc.... it became a running joke. I kept saying "No wonder the laptop was so cheap, it's just a marketing platform!".
I look for a place that will sell me one.
Not too big a problem really.
The local supplier would not be able to fill an order a 1000 machines (at least easily)
but the mail order place I use likely could. Since I buy one at a time , it works for me.
In a competitive market like that of the PC, what these companies can charge for their products is determined by market pressures, to the effect that (botique brands aside) sellers don't have the liberty of toying around with their profit margins. And when the PC's profit margin is restricted by a competitive market, customers are, in effect, paying for what their computers are worth, plus a predictable percentage profit.
You say that it might be absorbed by the company's bottom line instead, but where does that bottom line come from? It's meaningless to say "the company had to pay for the increase in cost due to the Windows licenses, whereas the customer paid for the increase due to the addition of a graphics card". Money is money, and either way it comes from the customer. Since playing around with semantics doesn't change the profit that a PC seller is able to demand for its machines, the customer will pay for any and all added costs of manufacture.
I bot my last one from Aberdeeninc.com
It was not quite naked it did have a bit of DOS on it. (think of it as a D string)
They needed something to burn it in.
I'm not even sure I'm joking. I'm a certified Apple fanboy, but a friend of mine prefers Windows. She does admire the Mac Mini, though, and is frustrated that no mainstream PC vendor seems to provide anything in the same form factor.
It wouldn't be absolutely insane to buy a Mac Mini just to run Windows, and if you could get Apple to sell you a naked machine and deduct the retail price of Mac OS X... or, hell, deduct $10, ten bucks is still ten bucks... it would be even more attractive.
Oh, for the days when the government understood that bundling an OS with hardware was anticompetitive.
(In the end my friend settled for an HP Pavilion Slimline, about the same general hardware characteristics, except for a bigger hard drive--which she doesn't need--in an almost equally unexpandable package that's about three times as large and heavy as a Mac Mini).
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
That is the theory, and much of it holds true. However, in many
competitive markets companies manage to manipulate those numbers
up a bit. Automobiles and gasoline come to mind. If the theory
was absolutely true, then there would be no reason to "brand"
your product, that would all be wasted money.
You seem to contend that the market sets the price absolutely. My point
is that there are people involved, and that while the market
influences prices, people at the company set the prices. The prices
that other comapanies are charging for similiar products is part of
the equation, if they are charging more ( for whatever reason ), then
the company with lower costs may decide to charge the same, and pocket
the difference, or can decide to reduce their price to buy market
share from their competition. The market does not force either decision
on them. So, the nagware guys offer them money, offsetting some
costs. The company decision makers decide on lowering the price or not.
emt 377 emt 4
Though previously attempted by Linspire, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for a small manufacturer to start selling OS free systems or systems with Linux installs on them? As long as they are able to say "limited" to "no support" if thats what the market wants, than thats what the market should get. I also believe there is at least one Dell model that has a system without an operating system... :/
Relocating to San Francisco / Palo Alto... Hire me?
Build your own. It's not that hard and only takes about 30 minutes to put together. Trick is to standardize on parts. Not too hard with socket AM2 (selection of cpu prices) and a 20/24 pin power supplies. If you get a board with 4 sata ports on it, it makes a nice raid server years down the road when you upgrade. Keep enough parts on the shelf to replace things when they go to hell. You get a lot more bang for your buck and no MegaCorp software bullshit to deal with. Better get your fill of it before it gets killed-off* though.
n g/20031001_tc.php
* http://www.eff.org/Infrastructure/trusted_computi
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
Because the sooner you "properly appreciate" the lingerie, the sooner it will be in the floor.
And try not to think about the cost, most especially if you bought it for her!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Natalie Portman (w/ or w/o grits), Samantha Mathis, Ione Skye, Maura Tierny, Moira Kelly, Pauly Perrette.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
If it costs the system builder less to non-include windows - and therefore be more likely to sell you a PC - they'd do it.
It's cheaper for them to include windows. Now this doesn't mean MS give them cash with each OEM copy. It means that a builder that shoves Vista on every PC they produce and doesn't sell naked machines, is favoured by MS. This favour enables them to get a discount on the OEM license they bundle with the vast majority of their machines, this saving outweighing the gain of selling a few naked.
I.e. if a system builder in MS good books say gets a $10 a license deduction for not selling naked machines - say taking it from $50 to $40.
Generously punters would want naked to Vista machines in a 10:1 ratio - for every 10 vista boxes they shift, they shift one naked box. They might be able to sell one machine for $40 less if they 'crossed MS', but they'd pay an extra $100 for the licenses on the Vista machines.
Now I'm aware this isn't precisely how it works, but you get the idea.
Secondly system building is harder than people think - I've had all manner of bugs with chipsets not liking random components. Dell chuck a load of time/effort into ensuring that the hardware configurations they sell work nicely with Windows. If they sell naked machines, then they'll get complaints from people when some obscure Linux version throws problems up - and the user will bitch to Dell. Margins are so low, it doesn't take that much hassle for any profit made on a machine to be wiped out on a few phone calls.
The more they sell configured at PoS, the less problems come back to them.
Does naked woman (or man if that's what you prefer) look better with a nake PC?
The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't
Ubuntu Certified Linux pre-installed for you. http://system76.com/
I say things which affects my Karma negatively. (and I don't care) For instance; All religion is false.
You, sir, have made my day. Comedy gold!
I'm suprised no one else commented on this. Don't many slashdotters build their own PC's anyway, thus skipping the problem entirely? What market is there for naked PC's? home users who buy a pre-built machine want it to 'just work'. corporations who buy 1000 pre-built machines typically specify exactly what they want the machines to be pre-loaded with. what's the big deal here?
It's not stupid. It's Advanced.
At some point in every sea change, the big established market makers will make a mistake. That mistake will sometimes allow a new type of business to get a toe-hold. The more the old industries know, the more likely they are to get stuck in their ways.
We're at an interesting point in technology. Interest in non-Windows operating systems is on the rise. Vista happens. Companies want/need an alternative they can get in bulk. People like me...and a lot of you...could easily set up an entire office on Ubuntu, if we could bid the job by the unit we might even be competitive. More people would sell hardware if they could call up and get a room full of blanks and configure a custom OS installation and service local markets.
If HP, Dell or whoever isn't supplying the machines, start a company that only supplies no-OS machines. Microsoft can't whine it encourages piracy after five years of product activation. Publish your hardware specs, coordinate drivers.
Your customers will be geeks, hobbyists and companies where...people like us work. You won't have the AOL crowd trying to buy PC's from you. Give them to Dell and HP and Microsoft. Do you really want to do work for the general public? The best use I've seen for them is Soylent Green. Restore some natural selection in the gene pool.
Work out your configurations with an overseas supplier. Opportunities like this don't come along every day in technology. Take advantage. Start small, don't go into debt. Anyone know Mandrin? Email me, let's try it. WTF?
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
If you want chipset and driver stability, buy the right model. It costs a bit more. For instance, Dell has Inspiron and Latitude laptops. The Inspiron is the consumer model. The chipset, video and network may change weekly. The (Windows) drivers that come on it will work, but may not be in the base Windows XP or Vista CD. They may or may not have Linux drivers available. It is the highest performance for the money. On the other hand, the Latitude line is built for business. They rarely change the chipset, video or network in a given model line. We have been using the Latitude d600/610/620 line at work for three years. The same (Windows) image loads on all of them. Linux seems to run quite well on it - the standard distros (Gentoo, Ubuntu) seem to find the wired and wireless network drivers and drive the video well. You get slightly less perfomance and it costs $50 to $100 more for the same unit. The major vendors (Lenovo, HP) do the same thing. I have worked for two Fortune 200 companies and this is what we asked the vendors for. They have delivered exactly what we wanted.
It should be kept in mind that the subject of this article is Desktop units, not server hardware. With that in mind, Windows is "it". What alternative is there? Hardware configuration and Desktop Linux are, by tradition, two things that just don't get along. For a typical business, trying to configure hardware on hundreds of Linux desktops would result in an enormous waste of time and computers that are unable to communicate with printers, USB devices, or log onto the internet. Total disaster! Now, Ubuntu is one Linux distribution which is making some enormous strides toward general usability. There is definitely some potential, here. For now, though, the word is "Microsoft". Sorry.
Mac: Hi. I'm a Mac. PC: And I'm a PC. Mac: Hey PC, what are you doing over there. PC: Playing a game. Mac: Can I play? PC: Remember how you said that I wasn't fun? Mac: Yeah. You're really good with spreadsheets and stuff, but you don't have anything fun. PC: Like most computer games, this one is only for PCs. You need Windows to play it. Mac: Oh. PC: Yeah. NO GAME FOR YOU!
My Sysadmin Blog
Want a quality PC that doesn't come with Windoze? The solution is simple: Get a Mac. You can still run Linux and/or Windoze if you really want to (in a window even) and you're not giving MS a dime. Perfect.
The Software maker like it because then they can get their stuff on other OEM PCs.. that would be why so many PCs have junk on them... Software makers jockeying for retail position. I'd bet companies like Symantec get more than 3/4 of their "home" sales from pre-installs at this point. People just don't buy software like they used to.
Erm Excuse me, do you sell a computer that is virus-free?
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
I note on their website that you cannot order a box without a hard drive, which means you'd have to talk to a real-live human in order to get it done. Though, I suspect that whoever I talked to on the phone would have to call their manager over and then collectively scratch their heads on such a request.
--Calling over the manager and lots of head-scratching tend to be common whenever I try to do things in this world. I think this must be the case for anybody who refuses to play sheep at the game of life; there are simply no regular options available for people who are not asleep. Luckily, no matter how much control a corporate body puts into the their systems, I've so far always managed to find ways towards freedom of choice, usually at the expense of somebody's peaceful state of servitude, for which I make no apologies.
-FL
To get a a naked PC simply buy used. Most OS instalations license breaks when the PC is sold or donated. Are you missing the original reciept? Are you missing the sticker?
Follow the BSA cases. Lack of supporting documentation means no license.
The truth shall set you free!
Come on guys and gals! We're mostly technically capable here. Get your components (i.e. Case, PS, Motherboard, CPU, RAM, Video Card, Sound Card, Hard drive or two, Optical drive or two). Put them together. You're off to the races. Nobody will push OEM OS on you. You can install anything you want on this custom made rig. Takes 45 minutes (on average) for skilled person to put it together.
Just saying that it isn't impossible. I bought my barebone Asus A6km notebook without an OS.
Gentoo Linux - Wouldn't have it any other way. And fuck beta.
Color me impressed, but IBM took some of the most obtuse and obtrusive things in windows and smoothed them out perfectly!
...
Yes, I think they called it OS/2
Oh, wait, that's not what you were talking about. Nevermind.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
From what I remember of a licensing fiasco with one of our large clients, a Windows-based operation that intends to use volume license keys is REQUIRED to have a valid certificate of authenticity on the outside of the case. Basically, if you are a system builder, and are providing machines to a client that has given you a pre-configured windows image to use, using their ultra expensive VLK, you have to charge them the 89 bucks for a Windows XP Home edition license too, and throw away the CD. (The licensing rules do not state that you cannot use Windows 98 or ME COAs, but good luck finding those in bulk).
So for all you students and users of public terminals, its worth it to write down a few of those keys you see emblazoned on the side of the case. They are unactivated OEM licenses for Win XP! Doing this, you are simply retreiving a thrown away key due to a Microsoft loophole just about all the smaller system builders are required to follow!
And also, the whole naked pc thing is really a general rule for the larger corporations (not sure if this was already mentioned, I read only half the posts). The smaller, local businesses (mine included) will build you a machine however you specify. However, guarantees for software configuration support and warranty will obviously be absent. Also, no self-respecting business will install pirated software provided by the customer. If they want Windows, then we go through the normal channels. If they want a flavor of linux, they can have it (at this junction, thats not a service we provide because of lack of sufficient knowledge...but that is changing). The smaller companies have no agreement or usually even a desire with MS for any of thier products or licensing requirements.
And indeed, I'm surprised to hear of so many people on here NOT building their own rig. Before you consider one of the big names that, as a rule, are not interested in providing good service to their non-business clients, go to newegg and price yourself a system. A little reading, some assembly, and some troubleshooting is all thats required for a superior machine. You choose the OS.
You've got a good point. I've actually had it happen, and negotiated the argument between the QA people who hadn't gotten around to testing recent enough kernels to support the new chipset for understandable reasons, the computer manufacturer who hadn't taken the hint that "do not change things" means "do not change things", and the motherboard makers who said "you're running a kernel *how old*!!????"
It's worse for laptops: the chipsets there are often being "enhanced" in various ways that make maintaining drivers for them quite difficult. So a pre-installed laptop is a godsend: you can expect the touchpad, the wireless, and the X settings for the display to all work.
Why won't Apple sell naked hardware?
Now that their (pretty) hardware will run Linux, it seems ridiculous to pay such a premium for OS X.
Having read the article, I can't help ut wonder whom they contacted within these companies. I myself work as a salesperson in this region (UK/Eire) for one of the top three PC manufacturers, and regularly sell PC's without MSFT software. The issue is that a computer manufacturer is by law obliged to provide some sort of operating system, be it FreeDos, Linux, OSX or Windows (non-exhaustive list, for the nitpickers out there). Indeed, providing a PC without an OS would - in the eyes of the law - be tantamount to producing a car without an engine, and leave them open to all sorts of litigation. I've seen many customers buy HP, Dell, Fujitsu Siemens or other boxes with FreeDos or Linux, because they have pre-existing VL-agreementes with MSFT. The major issue with this is that all manufacturers work with standardized SKU's and that any deviation from these requires special set-ups of the productlines. Hence, this is generally not offered to the general public or for purchase of nsies or twosies ...
Just my two cents ...
If you can't buy a naked PC,you can just buy the components and assemble it yourself.
There is not Microsoft tax on CPUs and motherboards IIRC.
Novatech, for example, has always sold the OS separately:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/
Maybe not the best-known PC vendor but a well-established company.
Tim
Don't go confusing your personal anti-proprietary philosophy with real-world issues like whether stuff actually works or not.
I have to wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. A so-called "IT professional" shouldn't have any problem building their own box, it's really not rocket science. So how you can proclaim that we are forced to buy Windows is beyond me. I really have to wonder why nobody tagged this article FUD. Because that's what it is.
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
well you have to use the phoneline not the website, and have a very confident voice as if you always do that. almost sound as your trying to replace a part.
Dell. call the business line and order a Precision 390 and you get Red Hat® Enterprise Linux WS v.4 (EM64T) as OS.
mind you, you still pay the exact same price as if you had windows xp. about 150$ but whatever you select on that monster you have a compatible driver with Red Hat.
Even on no-os machines they have to install an OS to get the machine running to confirm that everything is working. Pre-installing a Linux distribution is the wrong course of action. There are too many distros and it would cut into their profit to have to install your preferred distribution when you order a machine. The bottom line when they make these decisions is based on if that change will make the more or less profitable. They will gain the 1% of people who refuse to pay for a Windows license... or even know there's another choice. However, in doing so it may make their turn-around longer when putting together a new machine, possibly causing a loss of business somewhere in the 99% of other users who are too ignorant to know the difference. Remember they've been churning out machines with Windows pre-installed for greater than 10 years now. Vendors are going to be resistant to change just because that's the way the industry has been operating and they have it down to a science and they are making good money. There's also speculation that a vendor who starts offering machines without Windows will lose preferred pricing from Microsoft. If you're a business person and you run a multi-million dollar a year business selling machines where 99% of the people giving you money have one set of requirements, you will give preference to them. If supporting the extra 1% is going to be of less value than the discounts you'll lose because of a vendor "penalty", you're going to protect the income coming from the 99% and not bother with the 1%. Don't get me wrong, it ticks me off that I have to purchase a copy of Windows that I'm not going to use at any price. But I also don't expect a vendor to take a cut in their profit in order to support Linux. We in the Linux community are just going to need to increase our market share and cross the breaking point to where businesses will make a profit catering to us. I believe we're close. The addition of nseries by Dell and the number of vendors that have started up with the business plan of selling non-Windows machines shows some push in that direction. I think it's no coincidence that Vista has just been released and people don't want to "upgrade" their existing machines. I believe that all we need to do is continue to inform people about linux, to show people what it can do, to show people that the average joe can use it given the right distro, AND most importantly, give the people reasonable expectations when presenting it to them. Linux is not virus proof, hack proof, and stupid proof. It's not going to have instant response on a 200MHz machine with 8MB RAM while running Ubuntu with Beryl enabled. Tell them that there are some things that are better done on the command line and show them why. The way to change the industry is not in forcing vendors to change the way they do business.... that's Microsoft's plan and they have significantly more resources to carry out that plan. The way to change the industry is to continue to create a market and make it profitable for those who choose to cater to that market.
I think one piece of this might be changing.
With the grinding march of time, and coinciding with MS's desperate push for Vista, I am seeing every user who knows how to doubleclick an application has heard of both Microsoft Windows and "Apple". The world has learned what an OS is (almost). They have learned that "Microsoft Windows" looks one way, and "Apple" looks some other way.
I really consider this progress.
Now we can barely begin to discuss "is one better than the other?".
The only people I ever see who still do not know what an OS is, are *sub-average* users.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
If you read the artical a bit closer you will see this is about ordering a "naked" pc in UK.
We all know that you can get a dell pc without windows, but that offer only exists in the states.
Then PCs could be cheaper!! :'(
ghostbar page.