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Slobs Found To Be More Productive Than Neatniks

writertype writes "Are you a slob? Do you pile papers on top of folders on top of game boxes? Here's the thing that those anal neat people can't even conceive of: you're more productive than they are. That's the conclusion of "A Perfect Mess: The Hidden Benefits of Disorder," by Eric Abrahamson and David Freedman, a new book that argues neatness is overrated, costs money, wastes time and quashes creativity."

396 comments

  1. Indeed? by wframe9109 · · Score: 5, Funny

    In other news: People with Anorexia found to be more productive than normal eaters.

    "It's quite ingenious!" exclaimed one researcher, "it seems that because Anorexics do not need to take time to eat, they are far more productive!"

    When asked whether health implications or possible mortality ensuing from Anorexia could negatively affect productivity, the researcher seemed angered, and left the interview.

    On a serious note. One can get a lot done when they don't have to deal with cleaning shit up. But there is a certain point at which the stench, impossibility of finding important items, and spousal/co-worker nagging will counter any increased productivity.

    1. Re:Indeed? by hoshino · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think you are missing the point. Messy people aren't more productive because they save time on not clearing things up. The theory is that our brains are not organized in the same orderly manner as books on a library shelf. Our minds are actually quite messy and random, which allows us to be flexible and creative by linking seemingly unrelated things together in an instance. A messy desk may just be a physical manifestation of our thought process which is why we are more comfortable with it than with an unnatural sorting system.

    2. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've noticed this before. A colleague of mine tidies twice every day, at least 15 minutes in total. Everything must be neat and tidy and filed when he leaves his desk, even at lunchtime. He belives this makes him more productive and has said so to me.

      I tidy once per month. It may take me 2 hours to do. He's spent 7.5 hours tidying. I've spent 2... I guess that the extra 5.5 hours I get to put in are somehow ignored.
      As long as no one else starts interfering with my desk then I can find everything I need as a messy desk automatically sorts itself by usefulness order. If I use something a lot then it's towards the front of my desk. The less I use something the more it migrates to the back.

      Much of the time I end up working more slowly just after a tidy as I have to start fetching things back from files. The tidying processes main purpose is as a filter. If an item no longer needs to be on my desk (older paperwork ect) it will not return unlike the regular files which will have reappeared on my desk by the end of the week.

    3. Re:Indeed? by mackyrae · · Score: 1

      So messy people have AD[H]D? *looks at messy desk and room* Oh, right.

      --
      look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
    4. Re:Indeed? by Cauchy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In other words, and say it slowly with me, "Correlation does NOT equal causation."

    5. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that would explain my messy habits, as I do have ADHD. Whee, I have an excuse now!

    6. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess... you are a neat person and are offended by the thought that a slob could be more productive than you are so you automatically get defensive. The anorexia analogy really makes no sense. Are you saying that being neat is healthy and being a slob is a medical/psychological problem? Relax a little bit. Reading slashdot and getting offended doesn't increase productivity either.

    7. Re:Indeed? by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But there is a certain point at which the stench, impossibility of finding important items, and spousal/co-worker nagging will counter any increased productivity.

      Woah there. Messy!=dirty. My place might look like a hurricane hit it, but I keep it clean.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    8. Re:Indeed? by rodney+dill · · Score: 4, Informative

      Dude (shaking head), People with Anorexia HAVE a disorder, they aren't necessarily organizing things in a disorderly fashion.

      As for me I'm set, I'm pretty messy

      --

      Use your head, can't you, use your head,
      You're on earth, there's no cure for that
      - S. Beckett
    9. Re:Indeed? by AndyG314 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The secretary at a small doctors office I use to go to had a simple, disorginized and ingenously effective method of ordering her files on pacients. She kept all the pacient's files in a singe file. Whenever a paicent came in, she would search through the file for that pacient's chart, find it and give it to the doctor. When she recieved it back from the doctor she put it in the front. If you think of the worst case search time (the "Big O"), it was terrible(O(n) ), she might have to search through every single file to get to the one she wanted. But the avrage search time was very fast. Why? Because chances were very good that the file she was looking for was at the front of the file. Most of the time the same pacients came in over and over again, and their files stayed at the fron, making them easy to find. I only came in once a year, and my file was at the back, it took her a long time to find mine, but had to do it very infrequently, and she didn't have to search past mine to get to the files of her frequent visitors. This is a simple method of storing data, that requires a minimum of effort to maintain but is effective if certin critera are met: 1) Some things are used more frequently than others, and 2) the total number of things is not too large.
      Now consider the stack of papers on a slobs desk. Whenever he needs something in it, he searches through his pile. When he finds and finishes with it, what does he do? He's lazy so he just throws it on the top of the pile.
      Just something to think about...

      --
      If it's dead, you killed it.
    10. Re:Indeed? by thetroll123 · · Score: 1

      >co-worker nagging

      Ha ha! You trying telling a co-worker at an investment bank to tidy up his desk, and just see how long the conversation keeps him away from what he was doing. Jesus.

    11. Re:Indeed? by ronbo142 · · Score: 1

      I quite agree, I will have to take up being a slob today! I would hate to be able to find what I am working on in say 2 seconds vice the 79.4 seconds it takes when I have piles of CRAP on the desk. Ronbo

      --
      Semper Fi Ronald Ausman USMC Ret
    12. Re:Indeed? by ranton · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In other words, and say it slowly with me, "Correlation does NOT equal causation."

      While I am glad that more people seam to understand this concept, most people take it to an extreme. While a correlation does not equal causation, correlations are not useless. Almost everything we as humans know about anything started with a correlation. Finding correlations is what leads us to causational relationships.

      Finding a correlation in research is the first important step. They should not be ignored, or denounced simply because they are "only" correlations. These correlations should be used to warrant further research to find out what the cause of the correlations are.

      --

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    13. Re:Indeed? by browng · · Score: 1

      From the article...
      "'...if you had filed things or containerized them or purged them, you never would have seen them again. It becomes a natural reminder system," he said.'"

      That's called a calendar.

    14. Re:Indeed? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      I'll agree to a point. The issue is how do you organize fairly complex and obtuse concepts. I'm working on Project X with issues a, b & c, and Project Y with issues d, e, f. Where f, b, & c are somewhat related. Having those on the top would make sense.

      But in the case of patients, they are all generally classifiable by *one* piece of data. Their *Name*. So putting folders in alphabetical order isn't that hard. The 'system' is already in place, you don't have to develop 'how' you organize. (which for my 'messy' self is the hardest part)

      Now, having a file for 'recent' patients and one for 'in-frequent' patients would make sense. And once a month/week whatever, you process the 'recent' file and if it hasn't been used, you push it to the long term file. Likewise if you pull from the long term, you put in 'recent.

      So I guess it's a mix of both concepts, use the easy organization methods available, but also make use of the 'relevance' of the stuff your organizing.


      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    15. Re:Indeed? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, 20 years ago they figured out highly intelligent "anal retentive" people (i.e. intelligent perfectionists) were frequently slobs precisely because they could look at a huge mess and instantly understand everything that needed to be done, and be all at once overwhelmed by the magnitude of it, and just not bother.

      Whereas, presumably, stupider people, perfectionist or otherwise, would just get started and take a break or give up for a few days after awhile.

      This is why video games are so insideuos -- it lets people of normal behavior ape that of intelligent perfectionists -- getting all the positive, "you're special" strokes of accomplishment while not actually accomplishing anything of value.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    16. Re:Indeed? by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 1

      So your desk behaves like cache. When pages are used less frequently, they move from on-die cache (front of desk) to RAM cache (back of the desk) and eventually expire.
      OTOH.
      Neat people don't use RAM. They cache to disk(file cabinet) only.
      Truly OCD people end up thrashing alot I would guess.

      --
      0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
    17. Re:Indeed? by Monkeyman334 · · Score: 1

      "But there is a certain point at which the stench, impossibility of finding important items, and spousal/co-worker nagging will counter any increased productivity."

      And the sun revolves around the earth, I see it every day! ... How about doing some objective study instead of just pulling "data" out of your ass? The argument is that neatness hurts productivity. Although, the argument doesn't really matter, this book claims to have done a study. Indeed!

    18. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think there's a lot of confusion between "messy" and "disorganized".

      When my desk is messy I'll have a coffee cup in a corner, some random scraps of paper, a router, a few network cables, a bag of combos, some twist ties... You get the idea. But it's organized messiness. I know where things are, I can find them, and I can work just fine.

      TFA mentions some poor person who experienced an intervention...their friends cleaned things up for them. Now they can't find anything...nothing is where it belongs. It may now be a tidy room, but it is no longer organized - at least not in a way that is useful to the person living/working in that room.

      I honestly think messy/tidy is largely irrelevant and simply a matter of personal taste. Organization is what is key - but not necessarily some kind of institutionally imposed organization. Not everyone works most efficiently in alphabetical order...some people work better with a different organization or layout. And as long as things are organized well for them it really doesn't matter how messy something looks.

    19. Re:Indeed? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      "Today's cases", though, would be on a random pile on your desk.

      And a more enterprising doctor might input all their patients and their symptoms into a database and attempt to do data mining on disease similarities.

      You're useless! >:( :)

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    20. Re:Indeed? by EggyToast · · Score: 1

      Yeah exactly. "Correlation != causation" doesn't mean "no relation at all! stop looking for one!" Inherently the fact that there's a correlation means that there's a relationship. It just means that one doesn't necessarily cause the other. It should be used to explore more deeply.

      Really, it's a skeptics mantra that "things aren't always as they seem." Of course, any skeptic will also tell you that sometimes things just are as they seem :D

    21. Re:Indeed? by 246o1 · · Score: 1

      You are wrong. There's nothing 'natural' nor 'remindery' about calendars.

      --
      Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
    22. Re:Indeed? by GNU(slash)Nickname · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So, are you suggesting that the reason I don't care to play video games is that I'm an intelligent perfectionist? Interesting theory...

    23. Re:Indeed? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now say it slowly with me, (correlation != causation) != (correlation = !causation).

      By the way, people who say "now say it slowly with me" are really annoying. I suppose I only have evidence for that being a correlation, but I'm fairly certain a patronizing attitude is a causation of annoyance. Perhaps we should do some experiments to find out.

    24. Re:Indeed? by iocat · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wait... I'm a slob/perfectionist and I like videogames. Actually I have no problem keeping a room clean if I know where everything goes (such as a bathroom, or our TV/family room). It's stuff that I don't have a specific place for (interesting magazine articles, stocking stuffers, videogame tchotskes, mail) that piles up and requires great effort (and great levels of nagging by my SO) to deal with. I also know why there is only one space after a period -- you don't need two spaces after a period if you're using a porportionally spaced font. See here for more details, esp. as relates to the interwebs. I found that article while I was digging through my desk looking for last year's girl scout cookies.

      --

      Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

    25. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many people with ADHD does it take to change a light bulb?
      Want to go ride bikes?

    26. Re:Indeed? by fotoflojoe · · Score: 1

      In other words, and say it slowly with me, "Correlation does NOT equal causation."

      Freud said best; Sometimes, a cigar is just a smoke.

    27. Re:Indeed? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "I tidy once per month"

      I probably clean up about once a year...usually it gets to a point where I need to clearn the desk...get some cleaner, and clean the 'grunge' off places...accumulated dust off the desk, the monitor, and around things on my desk that don't often move (stapler, phone...etc).

      Usually at that point...I go through all the paperwork on the desk...get amused at "Geez, I've not even thought about that in a long time...", and throw stuff out.

      I'll start off nice, neat and organized again....for another year or so...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    28. Re:Indeed? by BronsCon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here's a real life example to back this up. I can provide more of these if needed.

      My filing system is a bit unorthodox, but it seems to work for me; maybe you'll find the same for yourself. I have a very well-organized area in my office, where I store archival copies of every document that enters the office, including paperwork and business cards. On my desk, I have a heap of documents that are relevant to whatever projects I am working on at the time and copies of all the business cards in my card file.

      Last night, I was looking for the business card of a contact I haven't spoken to in several months. As per my filing system, I have two of her cards, one in my card file, neatly stored away on a shelf, readily accessable, the other sitting on my desk, under so many months of clutter.

      I grabbed the card file, which is organized alphabetically, by last name, and began flipping through it; I flipped to the end and worked backward, as the name I was looking for began with a Y. It took me roughly 2 seconds to rotate my chair, 2 to reach for the box, 3 to grab it and open it, 1 to flip to the end of the file, about 7 to work backward until I began seeing last names beginning with W. I put the box back on the shelf after about 15 seconds, without finding the card.

      I looked on my desk, lifting what seemed a random portion of the clutter on it, and found the card in about 3 seconds. After I called my contact, I looked through the card file again, to file the card from my desk so I would be able to find it again, only to behold the other copy, in the file, right where it was suppoed to be. What did I do? I put the card right back on my desk; right on top of the rest of the cultter.

      In this case, and this seems typical, at least for me, I found what I was looking for on my cluttered desk in 1/5 of the time I spent looking for it (and not finding it) in the well-organized card file.

      Once I'm no longer in need of immediate access to a document, the desk copy is shredded and disposed of (cross-cut and given to a friend of mine who breeds small animals for use as bedding). This acts to limit the clutter on my desk to relevant documents; if I come across something that shouldn't be on my desk, it is disposed of, there is a copy in archival storage, if I need it later.

      None of my clients are bothered my how I keep my desk. In fact, several of them have tried (and kept) my filing system. Of them, a few have reported to me that they have spread the system to coworkers and a few of their clients.

      What's important to remember is that documents can be damaged or accidentally disposed of on the desk. You're only more productive in a cluttered environment until you actually lose something to the clutter; thus the need for archival storage. Good, well-organized archival storage of everything in your clutter. Yes, it takes time, but the time it saves you when you accidentally shred the clutter-copy of a client's project detail along with the clutter-copy of a paid invoice more than makes up for the time it takes.

      I'll give an analogy to tray and make it make sense to those who might still not get it. The archival storage is like a disk, the desk is the disk cache. The disk contains all the data in the system, the cache contains frequently or recently used data and data the caching engine thinks might be used soon. This speeds up file access by reducing the frequency of disk access and mitigates data loss by ensuring that data in the cache is also on the disk. If the cached copy of a file becomes corrupt or invalid or the space it occupies is needed for something else and it is deleted, the original copy on the disk is still there; if the clutter-copy of a document becomes damaged or lost or the space it occupies is needed for something else and it is disposed, the original copy in archive storage is still there.

      Before you call the analogy broken because a disk can fail, take note that a filing cabinet can fail, as well. It's called fire.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    29. Re:Indeed? by Cauchy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um, did anyone follow the thread? The post to which I responded made the real point that it wasn't believed that having a neat desk CAUSED the productivity. Rather, it was believed to be the "hidden node" of creativity that was the related factor. I was just summarizing it with a beloved phrase. As a PhD statistician who does research in modern statistics, I certainly was not nor would I advocate that we not study correlations---I make my living developing new methods to look at relationships between variables, for gosh sake!!!

    30. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One can get a lot done when they don't have to deal with cleaning shit up. But there is a certain point at which the STENCH, impossibility of finding important items, and spousal/co-worker nagging will counter any increased productivity.

      You're making the classic mistake of equating clutter and filth. Most people would call my workspace "messy". In point of fact, it's cluttered. There is nothing organic (except for a potted plant that is well-cared-for) in my work area that I do not consume/dispose-of daily (if not hourly). Nothing can decay or smell or decompose. The same holds true for my bedroom. Just because there is "stuff" (papers, books, electronic components, etc.) all over the place doesn't mean that things are "dirty". Now, you MIGHT be able to make a case about dust... but the simple fact is that I use things often enough that they don't really have a chance to get dusty.

      Anyway, just a reminder to keep "cluttered" and "filthy" in two separate cubbyholes in your thought processes, as they are in fact different.

    31. Re:Indeed? by Moebius+Loop · · Score: 2, Informative

      --
      Who the f*** decided that sentences on the Internet shall no longer be formatted with two spaces after a period?! All this talk of perfectionism forced me to correct your sig on this small point.

      The Internet has nothing to do with the absence of two spaces after periods. The current typographic standard dictates that two spaces are only used when the selected font is monospaced, like Courier, Monaco, or the terminal font. When using a proportionally spaced font, the second space is unnecessary.
      --
      have you been seen on slash?
    32. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Modern typography be darned! I still prefer the second space. I don't ask it of anyone else, but I feel it improves legibility, and general feng shui. Or something.

    33. Re:Indeed? by pedalman · · Score: 1

      Freud said best; Sometimes, a cigar is just a smoke.
      Unless it is Bill Clinton's cigar.
      --
      Friends don't let friends line-dance.
    34. Re:Indeed? by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      So, will wi-fi and rfid tags sort of mitigate the problem for those messy at home and work?

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    35. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have a source? I would be interested in reading these findings.

    36. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's all very interesting, but what the fuck is a "pacient"?

    37. Re:Indeed? by glsunder · · Score: 1

      In one drawer, I've got some full length ISA card that I have no idea what the hell it is. I've got stuff labeled 10base2. I've got an AT keyboard/monitor switch (no mouse). I've got manuals for software we didn't even purchase.

      It's a pretty nice day today, and the dumpster is right outside...

    38. Re:Indeed? by ranton · · Score: 1

      I just reread this thread, and I didnt see anything about causation and correlation. Even the National Association of Professional Organizers never confused the two. They said that 1000 "knowledge workers" lose $48k/wk due to an inability to locate information. They then say that disorganization causes that loss in productivity. They even made a point that you shouldnt confuse mess with disorganization.

      What the article was saying (and the post you replied to) is that the $48k/wk argument is wrong. They arent arguing about causation, they are arguing about whether that productivity is lost at all.

      That is why I assumed you were trying to say there is only a correlation (between what I dont know), because I saw no one making that argument before you. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I still dont see what you were referring to in your post.

      --

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    39. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parser error: does not compute
      While I am glad that more people seam to understand this concept

      -verb (used with object)
      7. to join with or as if with stitches; make the seam or seams of.
      8. to furrow; mark with wrinkles, scars, etc.
      9. Knitting. to knit with or in a seam.
      -verb (used without object)
      10. to become cracked, fissured, or furrowed.
      11. Knitting. to make a line of stitches by purling.

      I'm just a poorly written and buggy bot, and it seems that I'm lost here. Why would becoming cracked, fissured, or furrowed cause one to understand a concept? Unless of course you meant #11, in which case it is still confusing, does the art of knitting help understand this concept, all concepts, or any concept?

      Thanking you in advance, master human.

      -T1000 (alpha)

    40. Re:Indeed? by eh2o · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, that isn't it either. Technically, if the mind's organization system is internally random, then it does not matter if it is interacting with a system that is random or ordered, because it sees both as random. An ordered system cannot be any better or worse than a random one. (*)

      The real truth is that a messy desk is actually a vertical FIFO sort -- most recently used thing on top. Now I myself am a very organized person, but I also know that FIFO sort is basically the most productive organization strategy for human-scale things. For example, in the front 3 inches of my filing cabinet I keep folders for about 95% of the paperwork that I need to deal with on a semi-regular basis. The only difference is that I decided these papers don't need to be scattered over a broad flat surface in order to be easy to find. I've also found that if I keep those same file folders in a more "proper" place, e.g. alphabetized, etc, then I simply won't file away papers because it takes too much effort and a big mess results. By the way, all productivity experts know about the FIFO system and recommend it (e.g. David Allen).

      Finally in TFA they estimate people spend 1-4 hours per day cleaning (including home life), which is basically a
      highly pathological case, at best. Someone who spends that much time cleaning is either OCD or a janitor.

      * In some creative processes it is advantageous to have a random and independent sampling strategy over the materials you are working with. But people tends to processing things in linear order, so independence is violated when going through a sorted pile. Thus certain types of things are good (and fun) to have disorganized, like art supplies. However, I would argue that for most "productive" people, creativity and random-association isn't a big part of their job.

    41. Re:Indeed? by PPH · · Score: 1
      Correction: Some minds are capable of creating links between disparate objects and handling multiple tasks at once. Some are not. The definition of 'messy' pops up when one of the latter sees the workspace of the former. Meanwhile, the former types look at the neatnicks when times begin to look busy and see something akin to a system page thrashing.


      Some people have minds like DOS and other like Unix. And then there's the ones sitting there with nothing but a Blue Screen expression on their faces.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    42. Re:Indeed? by misleb · · Score: 1

      On a serious note. One can get a lot done when they don't have to deal with cleaning shit up. But there is a certain point at which the stench, impossibility of finding important items, and spousal/co-worker nagging will counter any increased productivity.


      Wait a minute... "stench?" There's a big difference between having a poorly organized (to the casual observer) space and being completely disgusting an unsanitary.

      And as far as not being able to find important items goes, in my "system" the important things are generally on top and easy to find. And as mentioned in TFA, having to search through stuff to find other stuff often makes one aware of what is there. Where if you everything is put neatly in its place, it can be difficult to remember that it is even there, much less remember WHERE it is. Happens to me all the time on the few occasions that I actually organize things... or worse, let my wife do it!

      -matthew
      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    43. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Per your 'period' interjection - I've been typing two spaces after every sentence for 24 years now. I learned to type on a typewriter; you aren't going to get me to stop now. :P

    44. Re:Indeed? by nuclearspike · · Score: 1
      I think you may be making some assumptions that there is no order to a pile.
      Piles are a time-based filing system based on last-accessed date & time. If you just recently got something or looked at something, it will be on the top, and for me, most of what I need is within the top strata.
      Your comment seems to assume that you would need to search the entire pile, but once you start getting into papers you haven't seen since before you last saw the document you are looking for, you've gone too far. In addition, if you haven't seen it for a while, you don't start at the top. Maybe the pile system works well for those who playing a lot of Memory as a child. If someone asks me for a document, I know which stack and how deep in the stack I need to go based on topic and long ago I last retrieved that document... I just see where it would be in my head, and voila, there it is. Once you get used to it and skilled at it, I find that it's actually faster that traditional filing.
      I did a quick google search for "time based filing", here's excerpts from documents which recognize the benefits of time-based filing for various purposes:

      1. THE TIMESTORE PROJECT [...]Time-based visualization can complement or replace the traditional semantic based email by using an aspect of human memory that most existing email systems ignore: temporal organization in autobiographical memory [4].

      Lifestreams: a storage model for personal data
      Conventional software systems, such as those based on the "desktop metaphor," are ill-equipped to manage the electronic information and events of the typical computer user. We introduce a new metaphor, Lifestreams, for dynamically organizing a user's personal workspace. Lifestreams uses a simple organizational metaphor, a time-ordered stream of documents, as an underlying storage system. Stream filters are used to organize, monitor and summarize information for the user. [...]

      Obviously, when multiple people need to be able to access the same set of files, then an agreed-upon system needs to be used other than a time-based index relative only to one person's memory. I'm not suggesting that every messy desk has underlying organization, but one cannot assume that there is no system just because because one is missing the index -- the filer's memory.

    45. Re:Indeed? by Cauchy · · Score: 1

      I'm trying really, really, really hard not to flame, but I do think you should be a little faster on the uptake. I was summarizing the initial post in the thread to which I responded, i.e http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227477&cid=184 28665. That poster did not use the words correlation or causation. I did not mention the original article except indirectly though the post to which I responded, i.e. http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227477&cid=184 28665. *shrugs*

    46. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      a friend of mine who breeds small animals for use as bedding

      Now THIS is an idea whose time has come! Imagine laying down at night in a nice fluffy bed of badgers.

    47. Re:Indeed? by PingSpike · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say insidieous, I'd say ingenius. I remember how much enjoyment I gleaned from running around in Starsiege: Tribes repairing broken generators. I sucked at that game, but I loved fixing those generators...why? Because I wished stuff in real life was so easy. Totally destroyed burned-out hulk of an old generator? Oh man, this thing is going to take days to fix...wait a minute, I just point this repair laser at it and...*wooga-wooga-wooga* all done! If only real work were so easy!

    48. Re:Indeed? by RyoShin · · Score: 2

      Actually I have no problem keeping a room clean if I know where everything goes (such as a bathroom, or our TV/family room). It's stuff that I don't have a specific place for (interesting magazine articles, stocking stuffers, videogame tchotskes, mail) that piles up and requires great effort (and great levels of nagging by my SO) to deal with.
      Wow, you too?

      I'm a fairly anal, lazy slob. It's a weird combination. I know what needs to be done, but don't have the gusto to actually do it.

      For instance, my room isn't the bastion in cleanliness, but that doesn't bother me. I know where everything is supposed to go, and as long as I know that, it doesn't actually need to be there. However, I freak out when someone brings something into my apartment and leaves it there, because I have absolutely no idea where it goes. I know it's theirs, and should go in their own room/apartment, but I don't know the specific place, so it eats away at me until I eventually just throw it out into the hallway.

      This also gets combined with being indecisive, so when I need to attack a problem I start thinking of all plausible outcomes and approaches, am unable to choose one, get overwhelmed and just give up.
    49. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, reading the whole thread makes your "correlation is not causation" post look even more like a karma-whoring nonsequitor.

      Note: I am not the person who you responded to. I am a different anonymous asshole.

    50. Re:Indeed? by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      LOL! Not what I meant, but I guess that's what I said. Someone mod grammar-nazi AC parent as funny.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    51. Re:Indeed? by AliasTheRoot · · Score: 2, Funny

      everyone knows that stuff goes in a pile underneath the coffee table.

    52. Re:Indeed? by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1
      heck - I don't even do that. After a month or so, the mounds of crap on my desk are all outmoded so, I just heave the whole kit and kaboodle into the can for recycling. Takes about 5 minutes.

      so, I could spend 5 minutes every day, or 5 minutes a month. My desk can look like a pile of junk, or something out of an IKEA show room. I'll take the snowbank of paper...

      Neat desks are the sign of an empty mind.

      RS

      --
      Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
    53. Re:Indeed? by browng · · Score: 1

      Other than the flow of time and it being in front of me

    54. Re:Indeed? by Cauchy · · Score: 1

      *sighs* It was meant as a passing remark. I didn't even really intend for anyone to take notice on it. I certainly didn't mean to upset anyone. I wasn't criticizing anyone. I really, really, really don't understand what about my original statement has some people so upset. To those who I did upset, I'm sorry.

    55. Re:Indeed? by Sax+Maniac · · Score: 1
      you don't need two spaces after a period if you're using a porportionally spaced font.

      I've never understood this argument. One space in a proportional font usually takes up less space than a space in a fixed font.

      See?__That's two spaces. (Underscores to avoid space compression)
      See? That's one space.

      Which gap is bigger?

      So, if the original need for putting in two spaces is to make it easier to pick out sentences, how does reducing that distance make it easier? That makes no sense.

      Answer - it only makes sense when you are right justify the text, which stretches out those spaces to be bigger. But that only usually happens in professionally-prepared print.

      --
      I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
    56. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe he is smarter than you?
      Looking better, working less, same pay?

    57. Re:Indeed? by Tacvek · · Score: 2, Informative

      The real truth is that a messy desk is actually a vertical FIFO sort -- most recently used thing on top.
      Don't you mean LIFO (Last-in, First-out) sort? Even that is a broken analogy though. It is really more of a stack where elements are popped from whatever position and pushed on the front. (As such it should be implemented as a doubly linked list internally if memory allows [stacks are bad at allowing elements deep inside themselves to be popped], but the interface to the user is stack-like). It tends to have 2 attributes. Frequently used items tend to be near the top, and recently used items tend to be near the top. Thus in most cases you narrow down your search time significantly as you are most likely to be needing something recently used or frequently used.
      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    58. Re:Indeed? by slofstra · · Score: 1

      A special case of the LIFO stack is the FISH stack. First in stays here.

    59. Re:Indeed? by ady1 · · Score: 1

      Jfldjsalk;fjklsajfklsahfbnvjncm,zbvjihlahgfjlhdsaf hsa;lk
      fs
      adf
      sda
      as
      v

      See? That's productivity...

      Anyway on a serious note, Microsoft Office is generally called productivity suite. If that is true then the thing about messy == productive must be as well.

    60. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a paper published almost 20 years ago along the same lines. The oldest stuff was pushed to the back of the desk, fell off and was binned. Works for me, my desk gets cleaned twice a year when the cleaners polish everything.

    61. Re:Indeed? by GundamFan · · Score: 1

      "Your co-worker has experienced an unknown error and needs to shut down, if he or she was working on something important you may experience data loss.

      Please contact your HR department if this problem persists."

      --
      I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
      Mark Twain
    62. Re:Indeed? by Talgrath · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because relaxing is such a BAD thing, right? Video games (like any other game) are there to amuse people and help them relax; just like TV, movies and books read for enjoyment. If you don't do any of the above, I feel pretty damn sorry for you.

    63. Re:Indeed? by Pinkfud · · Score: 1

      Well, that certainly is me. The desk I'm sitting at right now has piles of crap dating back years on it. Glancing at it, I see books on C++, unopened mail, candy, some fireworks, paper plates with code scrawled on them, magazines, and a whole lot of dust. Fucking MESS, but productive I am.

      --
      The world is my oyster. That's why it's always in a stew.
    64. Re:Indeed? by QuantumPion · · Score: 1

      You must be my alternate personality posting while I'm asleep, or my long lost twin brother, because I am exactly the same way. My house is pretty clean most of the time, but if I leave something go, then everything starts to pile up until it becomes an issue. I have about 1.5 years worth of mail that I have hardly rifled through because I pay all my bills electronically and don't normally have a need to open anything. All my important documents, taxes and passports and such are just sitting in a neat pile on my couch. My desk at work is organized by "this pile is from random stuff I was working on last month. That pile is from random stuff I was working on 2 months ago".

      I am also extremely indecisive about mundane matters, a couple months ago I was attempting to buy socks at Walmart. I already had several pairs of brown business socks and was trying to find ones that matched, but all they had were black and blue socks. I must have spent 20 minutes staring at socks going through my mind whether they would match with all of my pant and shoe combinations, how they would hold up in the wash, and if it would be possible to buy additional socks of the same color in the future. I guess we are obsessive but compulsive types.

    65. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woah there. Stench!=dirty. It's is probably the outgassing of petroleum bi-products as the bottom layers turn to crude oil.

    66. Re:Indeed? by shaitand · · Score: 1

      'The post to which I responded made the real point that it wasn't believed that having a neat desk CAUSED the productivity.'

      The merits of correlations aside I think we need to keep our eye on the correlation at hand. Those with the messy desks were shown to be more productive, not those with the neat desks.

    67. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it bad that I look at EVERYTHING I do with a 'net energy required' perspective? And when I say EVERYTHING, I break it down to the caloric requirement for sheer physical movement! Think that could become a debilitating phobia of sorts?

      Eh, never-mind. I've already expended to much energy typing this for it to be of any worth.

      No point here...

    68. Re:Indeed? by UncleTerry · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's called the Naguchi Filing System. You can use envelopes or folders filed vertically in cabinets, or just file horizontally on your deck next to the roller mouse and also next to the phone. The floor works well for large projects. The prior art on the system was probably my album collection back in the sixties. And don't forget to try it in the workshop or the junk drawer in the kitchen.

    69. Re:Indeed? by SporkLand · · Score: 1

      In comp sci, I believe, this is called a move-to-front heuristic (MTF) which is related to the move to root heuristic used in Splay trees. An interesting conjecture related to this is the dynamic optimality conjecture which claims that the splay tree's performance is no worse than any other binary search tree's within a constant factor. This conjecture remains unproven, and I forget whether or not a similar proof exists/has been proven for array's / lists and MTF.

    70. Re:Indeed? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > The current typographic standard dictates that two spaces are only used when the
      > selected font is monospaced, like Courier, Monaco, or the terminal font. When
      > using a proportionally spaced font, the second space is unnecessary.

      Properly formatted proportional fonts. You are the 30th person to bring up this point to me, and no one gets it.

      The reason for the additional spacing is to give the eye an aid -- to differentiate the space at the end of the sentence from the smaller amount of space between words.

      I have yet to see a stream formatter (including all known web browsers) that properly add a little additional space at the end of a sentence.

      Don't say "proportional fonts build in space" -- they do, but it's the same space as between words, so it has no bearing on a little extra space at the end of a sentence, useful for the above reason.

      Don't say "monospace fonts etc." because the same rule that applies to proportional applies to monospace -- you could just as easily have the same space between words as you do after a sentence -- one space.

      Why have more than one space for monospace fonts, but only a single space for proportional fonts?

      Secondly, why strip it out in web pages?

      The same argument that applies to monospace -- eases the eye -- applies to proportional.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    71. Re:Indeed? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Actually, there's some argument to be made that intelligence evolved to allow the organism to operate more efficiently. That it was more about finding the lazy, quick way to do something, working and developing much faster than via tens of thousands of generations of built-in instinct.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    72. Re:Indeed? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Someone who spends that much time cleaning is either OCD or a janitor.

      Or has kids.

    73. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At my last job I didn't clean my desk for 2.5 years. When I quit I just pushed everything on it to my neighbors desk. That was my little going away gift.

    74. Re:Indeed? by SoapDish · · Score: 2, Informative

      The two spaces rule actually came about because of typewriters. It used to be that typesetters and printers used a special block, giving them 1.5 spaces. When the type writer came out, every character had to be the same width. To maintain the wider space after the switch, it became custom to use two spaces, making the space after a sentence even longer.

      Now, with modern word processors, the extra space after a period is handled for you. Therefore, the need to add two spaces is unnecessary. Infact, we're back to the point where it is advisable not to use multiple spacing characters in any situation. Think of how annoying it is when people uses spaces in Word instead of tabs, or multiple tabs instead of setting the proper position of the first one. LaTeX is a great example of the priority of consistent typesetting.

      I don't know how this applies to the web, but I didn't see any double spaces used in your post.

    75. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Woah there. Messy!=dirty. "

      That's what I try to tell myself so I don't feel guilty about the mess around my desktop, here's a pic

      http://soros.ca/my_desktop.jpg

    76. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A wise old lady of my acquaintance once told me that "The secret to a comfortable and happy home is knowing the difference between mess and filth." Took me a little while to appreciate the wisdom of what she said, but she's absolutely right..

    77. Re:Indeed? by Lained · · Score: 1

      Actualy the "$48k/wk argument" can be both right and wrong, just depends on the disorganization (and yeah, I'm talking about disorganization, not mess... so I'm not getting confused about them).

      One example: my boss has every email that arrives methodicaly organized by subject, project, blah blah blah blah.... and every time I need to talk to him about an issue thats pending for a long time, I need to check my emails (usualy I just sort by sender since I usualy have a slight idea of who sent me, or to whom I've sent), get the date or the subject, go to his desk again and search every damn folder ' till he finds the email... I took about 3 seconds finding the email, he takes about a minute or more (ofc, there's the search feature :P but that doesn't work when I'm at his desk talking about the email, and he can't find it, and I'll have to go to my desk, track the email, and he has to do a 30 second search to find the right email that took me 3 seconds to find).

      On the other hand, if I ever needed to group all emails regarding a single issue together he would do in a couple of clicks, and I would take a day.... fortunately I'll never need to do that. and If I do, I'll just ask him to do it, and move on (I'm fortunately to work in a flat system, even thou we do have a hierarchy but thats only applied where decisions and tasks - not the type of task I mention on this example, since this would be the exception, not the rule - are concerned
      ).

      And about the topic in general... well, I'll have to go with "depends" as well. There's "lazy" slob, and "conscious/unconscious methodicaly" slob.

      The first is a no brainer... We all know one, we work with one or more, it's the guy that brings coffee to his work table and leaves it there, and if there's no cleaning lady for two years, that's how long the cup will stay there. He's the guy that tries to get you to do his job, and either is someone cousin, brother, nephew, or his out of a job real quick once noticed. (Well, a bit exaggerated, but you get the point).

      The other one is people like me (and in way I'm trying to say that i'm so uber imba good and a genious... just stating something that works for me, it's the only I can vouch personaly for, and it seems to work for some amount of people with slight variations):

      - In my place only once I had my bookshelf neat: when I moved In and unpacked. Ever since I just stack books on top of the ones that were already disposed in a row, or did a new stack on the sides. Guess what? It's now easier for me to find the books I want then when they were grouped by type, subtype, genre, size, color, whatever.

      - When I get home I place my keys in either two places: at the entrance desk, or my front desk... when I can't find them there I do a mental exercise that most people that usualy have their share of mess do: "let me trace what I did since I got home"... same goes for everything else I can't find in the first 10 seconds, no matter for how long I haven't seen what I'm looking for (and that it's an exercise that actualy has direct results in the way you deal with your memory, either because your predispose to that, or because the exercise makes you do it 'till you do it automaticaly).
      Same goes for my documents on my laptop: all in a bunch grouped by project (and on the end of the project I just place them in subdirectories subgrouping them by QA Test, Dev Tests, Analysis, Funcional Design, Issues/Tickets... but thats for my benifit but for the stacke holders benifit... well, you can say that it's for my benifit because if they can't make heads from tails from my docs if needed, then i'm in big trouble).
      I even have a foulder called "garbage" that I keep creating subdirectories in it with funny names like "ffs_someone_shoot_this_guy" or "is_this_4_real" (and so on) for crappy stuff that goes into my hands but shouldn't ever on the first place... The funny part about it is that I can find whatever I want without much effort when I want to show it to someone.

    78. Re:Indeed? by eh2o · · Score: 1

      Good point. Whether or not having kids should be considered "productive" is apparently a topic of ongoing debate.

    79. Re:Indeed? by Slurpee · · Score: 1

      dude

      are you seriously suggesting this method is better then filing alphabetically?

      As someone who use to do filing in a small doctors office, trust me, it takes next to no time to find anyone's file in a filing cabinet alphabetically ordered - nor any time to re-file it.

      And considering that 80% patients come about once or twice a year, I find it very hard to imagine her filing system working well.

    80. Re:Indeed? by fabs64 · · Score: 1

      You are of course right, this is the difference between a "Most Recently Used" linked list, and a hash table.
      The hash table requires a tiny bit of extra time on insertion, but is worth it for anything you're doing a lot.

    81. Re:Indeed? by ryanov · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Wal*Mart is for bastards anyway. Just don't shop there and the problem goes away.

    82. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When my girlfriend asks me why i'm messy i am often tempted to explain to her that I can't bend the fabric of space to accommodate the lattice-like organisation of said objects that I have in my head. Sometimes, I refer her to Christopher Alexander's seminal "A city is not a tree".

      But, joking aside, it is really dangerous for me to start tidying. Everything ends up in several piles in the center of the room and then left there for days after I gave up having not been able to physically organise everything in a way that I find satisfactory. Luckily my girlfriend instinctively keeps everything tidy enough that I rarely decide I need to "arrange" things. Unfortunately, this does mean if I put something down it's not guaranteed to be in the same place 5 minutes later.

      I'm a nightmare to live with, we've all come to accept that.

    83. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's smug, arrogant, and completely worthless in the context.

      THAT's what people had against it. And now you're wasting more of everyone's time following it up.

    84. Re:Indeed? by Original+Replica · · Score: 1

      In light of the earlier posted arugments of correlation != causation. I think it would be a good follow up study to detrmine if the messier people are actually just more intelligent, therefore more productive. "Some minds are capable of creating links between disparate objects and handling multiple tasks at once" The ability to make non-obvious connections is going to make someone more productive, regardless of their organizational habits.

      --
      We are all just people.
    85. Re:Indeed? by adamfranco · · Score: 2

      It's stuff that I don't have a specific place for (interesting magazine articles, stocking stuffers, videogame tchotskes, mail) that piles up and requires great effort (and great levels of nagging by my SO) to deal with.


      I have found a kindred soul! Does anyone else find paper mail to be the most difficult thing to deal with? While my career, book shelf, tool box, etc are wonderfully organized, paper mail brings me to my knees. Perhaps a comparison with my email process is in order:

      Email:
      1. Scan inbox, delete junk
      2. Click on "real" messages, scan message.
      3. If the message is interesting, flag for later re-reading/replying and move on to next message
      4. Get coffee, do other work
      5. When I feel like a break later, go back and reply to flagged messages

      Paper Mail:
      1. Scan mailbox, pull out mail if any, carry to house
      2. delete obvious junk: fliers, anything from Comcast (I don't have a TV or cable modem)
      3. look at the large remaining pile of things.
      4. Open any obvious personal correspondence
      5. look at the large remaining pile of things. These may be bills, advertising, or those damned credit-cheques that Capital one sends out all the time. No way to know without opening them.
      6. stuff mail in a "to look at bin" since the rest of the "pre-authorized offers" or statements need shredding and everything else requires some sort of action.
      7. Once SO complains enough about the "to look at bin" overflowing, deal with the rest of mail and write many cheques and do much shredding



      After writing all of that, the processes don't seem that much different, but the key thing in my mind is the ability to quickly scan the subjects of my "flagged items" in the email program, while dealing with paper mail at a later date requires complete reevaluation of each item.

      By the way, living with my very neat SO means that my "stuff I don't have a specific place for" must be put into boxes. Its only been two years and I am now on 3 shoeboxes and several larger boxes, preventing me from having any idea of what is contained in any of them. That said, the house does look nice....

      - Adam
      --
      "When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind." -- Bill Moyers
    86. Re:Indeed? by Sax+Maniac · · Score: 1
      Interesting... you say 1.5 spaces. But what's a space? How big? 1.5 whats?

      From what I see, one unstretched "space" in a proportional font is usually the size of a very small letter. It depends on the face, but usually something quite thin like i or t.

      So, if in a fixed-pitch font "one space" is so small to deem it necessary to use two, then "one space" in a proportional font is even less! Maybe we should be using three!

      Totally confused.

      --
      I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
    87. Re:Indeed? by coolGuyZak · · Score: 1

      my "stuff I don't have a specific place for" must be put into boxes. Its only been two years and I am now on 3 shoeboxes and several larger boxes, preventing me from having any idea of what is contained in any of them. That said, the house does look nice....
      Sounds like the way I recently "cleaned" my bedroom.
    88. Re:Indeed? by coolGuyZak · · Score: 1

      Look who's talking? Hold up, John Travolta's on the other line...

    89. Re:Indeed? by Starburnt · · Score: 0

      Not to mention a paicent. I think they're ninjas or something.

    90. Re:Indeed? by iocat · · Score: 1

      That's what us editors use find-and-replace for. Do whatever works for you. Luckily most modern browsers will only show one space in a row unless you work really hard at it!

      --

      Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

    91. Re:Indeed? by BillyBlaze · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what "modern word processor" you're using, but in OpenOffice, and presumably Word, the space after a period is no longer than a space elsewhere. And in general, how can we expect a computer to distinguish between an abbreviation and a complete sentence? Better to just type two spaces.

      The main reason people think it doesn't matter anymore is that in HTML, and by extension on most forums, typing two spaces makes no difference anyway.

    92. Re:Indeed? by BillyBlaze · · Score: 1

      Two spaces aren't ignored by browsers for aesthetic reasons, but because the general policy is to ignore any repeated whitespace, meaning basically ( |\t|\n)+ are all treated the same.

    93. Re:Indeed? by BillyBlaze · · Score: 1

      The secretary could improve her worst case time by putting a limit (determined heuristically) on the size of the stack, and when the stack gets much bigger than this, organizing the oldest files alphabetically. This is equivalent to the way I organize my desk: every few weeks when it gets truly unbearable, I put all the stuff I'm not currently using away.

      An empty table is like unused RAM: why not use it as a file cache?

    94. Re:Indeed? by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

      Christ I hate to jump in on this whole circle jerk of slobbery but count me in too.

      My place is either absoloutely hospital grade spotless or filthy to the N'th degree - there is no inbetween.
      and I HATE it when friends lend me stuff because I need to find a new place kind of like a temp directory to store it - it's always a spot which I have to be aware it's there or i'll forget to give it to them but it's also always bugging me that it's there and doesn't belong there :(

      I am very very broken, I'm sure of it.

    95. Re:Indeed? by jelle · · Score: 1

      Sounds very familiar. Desk clutter is only cache anyway, if you need something and it's not there, you retrieve it from the backing store. Stuff on the desk is stuff in the pipeline for current processing. Cleaning the desk is like a pipeline flush, you'll have to spend time to refill the pipeline, so you'll lose cycles right after cleaning. Find the balance for optimal desktop management in flushing fast when needed, but try not to flush more than absolutely necessary. When you start to experience frequent pipeline stalls because of dependencies, you need to widen your datapath and reduce the number of pipeline stages (bigger desk with less tall, but more (or more complex) piles). However, be aware that a larger cache or a cache with a higher associativity increases access latency.

      If you have too many projects to work on concurrently (e.g. getting too much cache access latency), go multicore (multiple desks with assignment of the most disjunct projects to different desks).

      Bleh.

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    96. Re:Indeed? by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1
      It's sort of organised differently for me. distance from my chair is level of importance, and the top of the stack is most recent (z axis). Stuff to the left is newer, stuff to the right, older. After about a month, it's about 4 - 5 inches deep, so starting on the right and far away and deeply buried, I start dumping it into the recycler. Usally if it's on the far right corner of the desk, I usualyl don't even bother looking at it - it just goes straight in.

      Stuff on the left, which is near the aisle I'm sitting at, is newer, and often has recent memos or snail mail or other recent crap. When I do my monthly recycle pitch, I go more carefully through that area. But usually it all ends up i nte recycler too. Then I have a "nice clean desk" for about a week, and then the accumulation begins anew.

      sigh.

      RS

      --
      Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
    97. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just one question:

      Have you ever peered into the car windows of students in law school and those in medical school?

      (I rather ride in the medical school students' cars... except for male nursing students: they don't seem to like to wash their hands)

    98. Re:Indeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe it's because HTML rendering strips spaces down to one without using the nbsp and people are lazy.

    99. Re:Indeed? by evilgiu · · Score: 1

      This is a lot how things work for me as well. I have certain "defaults" for certain categories of things. If someone comes and "organizes" these, I'm at a complete loss. It may seem lazy, like a pile of paper mail on the corner of the dining table, but once you rephrase it into what I'm really thinking when doing it, things sound a lot different: all new paper mail goes into a pile on the corner of the table closer to the door. That's the first surface available when entering my house. It ensures I won't forget that it is there. Once opened and deemed relevant, correspondence moves to the computer desk where action will be taken accordingly. End result is that most of my friends say I'm a very organised, although messy, person. Sounds fair to me. -- It's not easy being green.

      --
      It's not easy being green.
    100. Re:Indeed? by coastwalker · · Score: 1

      What they may have discovered is that 'messy' people in some cases seem to operate a low overhead filing system that looks untidy to an outside observer. Their definition of a filing system is obviously too limited.

      --
      Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
  2. Just as disorganized as we need to be by ciaohound · · Score: 1

    "She says she hasn't recovered since an incident when members of her family tried to clean up her mess."

    Okay, I'm the organized one in our household, but if anyone tried to clean up after me (i.e., put stuff where I can't find it) I'd be just as unproductive as they are.

    --
    Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
    1. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by Ngarrang · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My wife once cleaned a bunch of my papers off my computer desk. It was the last time she ever did that. When I was unable to find some very important papers, we made an agreement that I would be in charge of keeping the computer room clean. Life has been bliss ever since.

      I am a visual learner, I can "see" where I left a item and can find it quickly. Thus, my desk looks cluttered. But I know where everything is. So, it isn't messy, it just doesn't look organized according to someone else's definition. We are all individuals and it is a tad unfair to expect all of us to fit one mold for what is considered organized.

      --
      Bearded Dragon
    2. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by Skidge · · Score: 1

      "She says she hasn't recovered since an incident when members of her family tried to clean up her mess." That's not a very good argument against neatness. Of course when someone else "organizes" your stuff it's going to throw off your whole system. However, it could be the case that the person in question's mess was infringing on the rest of her family's organization. In that case, you just have to take one for the team sometimes.
    3. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by loganrapp · · Score: 1
      My brain is very scattered - five things going on at once constantly. This is why I drink a little bit when I really want to work on one of my creative projects (obviously, this method is frowned upon in the workplace, so your mileage may vary).

      My room/office is night and day from the rest of my apartment - my office has papers everywhere. My apartment is clean as a whistle.

      No one's going to be going into my room (I'm on Slashdot, I think that explains it all), but there will be guests in the rest of my apartment, and so I make sure to maintain cleanliness. "Productivity" is higher in the areas of more social importance - living room, kitchen - than areas where I'm using the space by myself.

    4. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by NightWhistler · · Score: 1

      I find that a small dose of valerian (that's the herbal extract, not be confused with Valium) does wonders to keep the "running in 5 directions" under control. I started taking a small amount of valerian in the morning and at lunch, and I find I can focus a lot better now.

      Disclaimer: I was put on Ritalin for about 1 week as a kid, and never touched it again after that... it changed me personality to the point I didn't feel like "me" anymore. Oh, and my desk is still a mess... valerian or no :-)

      --
      PageTurner Reader: open-source e-reader for Android with cloudsync. http://pageturner-reader.org
    5. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My spouse is an ESFP and has a very external-to-the-world way of thinking. His brain skips from one topic to the next at ungodly speed. The area where he's creative - sewing, working on photos, looking up ideas - has to be cluttered. For him, having a lot of stuff around gives him the raw material to think. At the same time, at least once a month he goes, "Do you have any idea where X is?" I can usually help him find it, because I track stuff as much as possible.

      I'm the opposite. As an INTJ, I have to work on one thing at a time. I also _need_ things neat to work. Having extra stuff in my visual field is a distraction that keeps me from focusing on the task at hand. I don't like cleaning especially, but if there's a stack of papers on my desk I can't focus on the one thing I'm supposed to be doing.

      It's interesting because we're effective in different ways. Any task which requires concentration or abstract thought is my domain. Anything creative or color-coordinated is his. We don't work in each others' areas, but we complement each other nicely.

      I think the lesson from the article is: don't make creative types act like neat freaks; it's counter-productive.
      My addendum: don't make neat freaks work in clutter; it's counter-productive.

    6. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by loganrapp · · Score: 1
      Yeah, but abusing alcohol is just so much more fun!

      But seriously - I'll try valerian the next time I start cracking on one of my film scripts.

    7. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by daenris · · Score: 1

      Myers-Briggs personality types really have little to nothing to do with organization strategies. I'm an INTP (or INTJ, depending on when I take the test, I'm on the edge), but I'm much more similar to how you described your spouse than yourself.

    8. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      Dude, that was a 45 year old FBI agent posing as a woman.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    9. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by freeweed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Absolutely.

      To add to this, I can't count the number of times where I've been at work in the evening/weekend, and some important piece of data (phone number, file name from some bizarre problem a week ago, you name it) was written down on a scrap of paper, and driving back home was NOT an option.

      30 second phone call to the S.O., complete directions down to the colour of the paper, approximate size, location, what's on top of or underneath it, which side of the paper it's written on, what other scribbles are around it (my handwriting leaves a lot to be desired). Really freaks out my co-workers to hear a call like that :)

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    10. Re:Just as disorganized as we need to be by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I'm INTP or ENTP (again based on mood, or time of test), and I am rather cluttered, not dirty mind, just cluttered. I don't think that this has much to do with MBPT either, though.

      I tried just about every organizational system there is, but have a hard time following them since they distract me from the tasks at hand. I've tried everything on 43 Folders and Lifehacker, and they all serve as a distraction, since all I do is then sit around and tweak whatever organizational system I'm trying. I finally settled on the idea of Flow, I'm just going to do what I do, organization be damned. If it doesn't work it will slowly evolve to a state that does.

      I've noticed that even my clutter is self-minimizing. When it gets too bad it, itself, becomes a distraction. It seems that we somewhat mirror our environment, when things get downright sloppy around me I can't think, but when things are too neat I can't find anything. I come from a family of neatniks, so things were interesting when I was younger, people kept on stressing neatness over something that actually works for me, and I always felt bad having a mild clutter in my work areas.

      My take on the article, though, is that overly neat people spend too much time caring about the appearance of their environment over actually doing their tasks.

      As a tangent: I've noticed that the INTP type is massively over represented on the internet (especially geeky places). In the real world it is 4% of the total population, but it seems much more common online. I wonder if anyone has done a study on this? It would be interesting to see the clustering of the various types in different environments.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  3. Attention Slashdotters by timias1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    The article is about clutter not hygiene.

    1. Re:Attention Slashdotters by aicrules · · Score: 2

      And yet they would apply the same thinking. Why take a shower or brush your teeth? That just wastes time! It is far more productive to use that time to conceive of wonderously creative ways to explain to your parents why you still live in their basement.

    2. Re:Attention Slashdotters by Silver+Sloth · · Score: 1

      To push this argument one step too far

      The time benefits of saving two minutes per day need to be offset against the productivity loss during periods of intense pain due to toothache, and time off for visits to the dentist.

      There is a similar argument about showering. Being unhygienic is unhealthy and therefore reduces the efficiency of your body. Proper maintenance of any machine is essential for maximum output.
      On the other hand the apparent chaos on my desk at work is actually the byproduct of multitasking, and reflects the way in which I allow the various aspects of my work to cross fertilize each other - honest guv!

      --
      init 11 - for when you need that edge.
    3. Re:Attention Slashdotters by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Interesting that your user name is "Sloth"...you're not biased are you? Three-toes = less productivity.

      A neatnik would take 15 minutes to shower and 3 minutes to brush teeth. So the total time saved in a year would be about 4 and a half days of time. Eventually all the teeth would fall out of the slob, so pain would only be temporary on that front.

      I completely agree that the shower/teeth brushing argument only cares about the immediate time savings, which is exactly what the article cares about. They honestly thing the time saved by not organizing is where the results of action end. No long term thinking...

    4. Re:Attention Slashdotters by fourchannel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is no less time organizing = more time working, that is a mis-interpretation of the idea.

      The idea here is that a 'un-organized' person is not not un-organized. Instead this person's brain is able to keep much better tabs on where things are. Their memory serves as their reference base. Should they need something, they check their memory for its location, and knowing where it is, proceed to retrieve it. The aparant 'chaos' is not really a hindrance to a person who can literally sense where the things in his house are. There is no need to visually organize it, since visually organizing it would be an advantage to spot an item if you don't already know where it is. But since there people already know where the item is, visual organization never crosses their mind.

      I'm not an 'authority' on this, but I feel comfortable speaking on it since 1.) I have ADD, and 2.) I can relate and understand this kind of multitasking the brain does in other people with ADD.

      I hope that explains it better. =D

      --
      ---FourChannel---
    5. Re:Attention Slashdotters by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It might not be about saving time = more productivity. It might be that people of such a mind are just better workers because they're smarter.

      For example, their minds might not view trivialities such as a clean desk as being important.

      It's been decades since psychologists noted highly intelligent people tended to disdain rules as being set up for the common man.

      Higner intelligence --> more clutter and, coincidentally, more productive, better work.

      But it would require higher intelligence to see that link, rather than just presuming some first-order connection between clutter and doing a better job.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    6. Re:Attention Slashdotters by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Attention Slashdotters, the article is about clutter not hygiene.
      Can it be both?
    7. Re:Attention Slashdotters by aicrules · · Score: 1

      I will challenge any assertion that higher intelligence begets more clutter. Sure, someone who perceives themselves as being higher intelligence may then turn their nose up at what they perceive as "menial" tasks, but a truly brilliant person will know which of those "menial" tasks will be beneficial in the grand scheme of things. It is not, in my opinion, exhibiting higher intelligence to have such a short-term view of things to assume that all "menial" tasks are unnecessary. It's purely a factor of a larger ego.

      Incidentally, I know a lot of smart people that are horribly unproductive. There was no connecting being drawn between actual intelligence and clutter. The article connects productivity with those who leave things less strictly organized.

      So yes, the entire argument is that less time spent on anything but the direct task assigned will always add up to more productivity. And that is a false argument.

    8. Re:Attention Slashdotters by aicrules · · Score: 1

      You like that first line in replying to me...

      There are certainly people out there who can organize things effectively in their mind without organizing them anywhere else. However, even for those people, productivity is only improved if you take a very narrow view of that productivity. It would simply take that person being hit by a bus and someone else having to take over for that productivity scale to swing completely the other direction.

    9. Re:Attention Slashdotters by misleb · · Score: 1

      And yet they would apply the same thinking. Why take a shower or brush your teeth? That just wastes time! It is far more productive to use that time to conceive of wonderously creative ways to explain to your parents why you still live in their basement.


      You are assuming that the productivity gain is the *reason* why people are disorganized. When really, "disorganized" is just the way some people are and it is how they work best.

      -matthew
      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    10. Re:Attention Slashdotters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "aparant chaos" [sic] may not be a hindrance to the person who created it and knows where everything is, but it can be a HUGE hindrance to the people she lives with. Grrrr....

    11. Re:Attention Slashdotters by fourchannel · · Score: 1

      And to compliment your point, even people who keep tabs on the locations of damn near every single item they intereact with still make mistakes. I have wasted hours trying to find something, by looking in a spot I left it last week, but then forgot that I had moved it this week. And so on...

      Being hit by a bus would definately impact the productivity of a person, seeing as how they are most likely dead. And when ever you change hands, there is always some turmoil caused by switching into an unfamiliar environment.

      I'm not saying that all people with ADD, or who are messy, are neccessearily more productive. There are always anomalies. For the most part, what the article is saying, is that generally people with messy workspaces are generally more productive than the average organized person.

      This is also not to say that people with ADD and etc. are better or smarter. None of us had a choice in determining how our minds were built. Some of us got the short end of the stick, looking at life in black and white and through a tunnel. Others got brilliant minds, who can see the world in all its colors and can sense the invisible web of interrelated intricacies that connect our lives together. Each of us, usually, tries our best to work with what we have. We leave our hardware at the gates of whatever afterlife we are going to. There is no pride in looking down upon others here. I'm not trying to lecture to you, I just wanted to let you know that I don't think of myself as more worthy or more valuable than any other person. I try, and make occasional mistakes, to do what I can to make life better for those around me.

      --
      ---FourChannel---
  4. Motivation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    My guess -- this article was written by a slob.

    1. Re:Motivation by geekwithsoul · · Score: 1

      And my guess is that they wrote it in half the time it would have taken for a neatnik to do it :)

    2. Re:Motivation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      true. inner organization has concept, editing criteria & sense of audience built in. you just say it.
      just dropped in, have my password deep in gmail, haha

  5. I knew it! by Noryungi · · Score: 5, Funny

    Which is the perfect excuse to ask for a raise!

    "But, boss, you really have to admit that MY desk is much more messier than everyone else in this company! I demand more money! See here? We are talking about a freaking 3 DAYS OLD PIZZA, buried under papers and backup tapes for chrissake!!"

    I hasten to say that I already got a raise. I am just rehearsing for the end of the year review... ;-)

    --
    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    1. Re:I knew it! by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

      Then again, giving a raise to someone who uses the phrase "much more messier" might not look good on your supervisor's review. It probably evens out in the wash if he/she doesn't give you the raise but replaces the 3 day old pizza with a new one occasionally and gives the raise to someone who can actually communicate effectively. /humor

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
  6. Clean desk ... by Migraineman · · Score: 2


    Clean desk ... cluttered mind. [eom]

    1. Re:Clean desk ... by Attrition_cp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Empty desk, empty mind.

      --
      Touched By His Noodley Appendage.
    2. Re:Clean desk ... by JamesTRexx · · Score: 1

      No-no, it's, "A clean desk is the sign of a dirty mind".

      --
      home
  7. I would reply to this but... by macurmudgeon · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm just to busy being productive and I can't remember which stack of papers my keyboard is under.

    1. Re:I would reply to this but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can'nt remember where your Model M key board is; you automaticly lose you slashdot membership and all your geek credits. Go back to "Start;" Dont' pass "Go;" Don't collect $200.....

      You change to the Dog token...

    2. Re:I would reply to this but... by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 5, Funny

      You call yourself a geek? I'm looking for my paper under a stack of keyboards!

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    3. Re:I would reply to this but... by Evilest+Doer · · Score: 1

      You call yourself a geek? I'm looking for my paper under a stack of keyboards!
      And you call yourself a geek! "Keyboard. How quaint!"
      --
      I feel like death on a soda cracker.
    4. Re:I would reply to this but... by spiderbitendeath · · Score: 1

      And you win the award for the first Scotty reference I've seen in the posts so far. Congrats, you get a whole lot of extra bytes to load to read this.

      --
      Sometimes when I'm working on projects things disappear, I suspect gremlins.
  8. Well yeah... by physicsboy500 · · Score: 1

    What do we do with the 8 hours of the day we would have otherwise spent scrubbing the bathtub with a toothbrushZ

    --
    The original generic sig.
    1. Re:Well yeah... by rockhome · · Score: 3, Funny

      Take solace in the fact that your roommate's toothbrush is now used only to clean his teeth.

  9. slow news day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    law of diminishing returns. and after that it might even hurt productivity. what's new? oh, and don't even try to achieve perfect messiness. just do whatever seems to be getting work done. if you are being underproductive try some new ideas and that might hurt a little but don't stick with them they keep hurting for long.

    1. Re:slow news day by lahi · · Score: 1

      In other words: everything in moderation, including moderation. Which BTW is why I am posting excessively (well, moderately excessive) instead of moderating.

      -Lasse

  10. Absolutes are almost never correct by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. In my experience, being a bit messy can improve productivity by shunting unimportant tasks away from your center of attention. For example, if I receive a bunch of fluff memos, they're going in the kill-file pile until I get around to reading them in detail. (Which may never happen.) But I haven't disposed of them yet, so I can still retrieve them if necessary.

    The problem is that if you let the mess grow too large, it *WILL* impact your ability to operate efficiently. So every once in a while you need to do a house cleaning of your different paper stacks, your email, your desktop files, and whatever other info you use on a regular basis.

    Which gets me to another point. It's not that the "slobs" aren't organized. In fact, they may have a very good organization system. It's just that they allow the system to be strained to the breaking point before reorganizing. For example, I might start with an email folder called "work". That's going to grow too large in short order. But when it does grow too large, then it becomes clear whether it makes more sense to reorganize around department or by project. So I organize around the most effective order until that order also breaks down.

    My point is that order is a good thing. It merely comes in many forms.

    On another note, I absolutely love the way GMail handles my email. Rather than moving things to different folders automatically (where I'll never even realize that new messages have arrived), its tagging and filtering system allows me to auto-tag emails from mailing lists, board members, fellow project workers, etc. So I can view it in my inbox, then archive it without having to worry that I'll never find it again. The result is that my GMail account has kept more organized than any other email account that I've ever used. Now if only I could get a time machine to obtain time to respond to the lower-priority stuff. :-P

    1. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by Stooshie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I completely agree. Everyone has their own system. People with messy desks don't just shove stuff anywhere. They put it where they will find it again.

      This has all been discussed before in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    2. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      John T. Molloy in his book "How To Work The Competition Into the Ground & Have Fun Doing It" found the opposite to be true. While he was naturally a messy person, he found that he had to revise his original conclusion that organization was unimportant and found that the organized person was a better worker. Of course, being organized does not necessarily being neat. As long as their is a place for everything, one is organized no matter how it appears to others.

    3. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by flynt · · Score: 1

      Yes, ZatAoMM was the first thing I thought of when I read this, too. I'm going to read that book again.

    4. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. In my experience, being a bit messy can improve productivity by shunting unimportant tasks away from your center of attention. For example, if I receive a bunch of fluff memos, they're going in the kill-file pile until I get around to reading them in detail. (Which may never happen.) But I haven't disposed of them yet, so I can still retrieve them if necessary.

      I agree with most everything said, but to add my 2 cents, I believe that moderate messyness is good because it works like a cache and a priority queue.

      If I am a neat freak and put everything away, then its a waste of time to continually get and put away what I'm working with. Think of this like a cache.

      Now for the priority queue, when I'm a little messy, the important stuff floats to the top. As the mess gets higher and deeper, after a while the stuff on the bottom becomes unimportant, and can then be cleaned up (similar to garbage collection).

      The problem is that if you let the mess grow too large, it *WILL* impact your ability to operate efficiently. So every once in a while you need to do a house cleaning of your different paper stacks, your email, your desktop files, and whatever other info you use on a regular basis.

      So true. Again with my computer analogy, this is when you have TLB misses, or cache misses, or you are thrashing your swap. All of those things are OK if its not a chronic problem, but if it is a chronic problem, well then, its a chronic problem.

    5. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by icydog · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now for the priority queue, when I'm a little messy, the important stuff floats to the top. As the mess gets higher and deeper, after a while the stuff on the bottom becomes unimportant, and can then be cleaned up (similar to garbage collection).

      ---

      The problem is that if you let the mess grow too large, it *WILL* impact your ability to operate efficiently. So every once in a while you need to do a house cleaning of your different paper stacks, your email, your desktop files, and whatever other info you use on a regular basis.

      So, if you let it become too cluttered, your priority queue degrades into a bubble sort?
    6. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, if you let it become too cluttered, your priority queue degrades into a bubble sort?

      Actually, it's more of a Most Recently Used sort. The more recent the item, the more likely it is to be at the top of the pile. Which gives a best-case search time of O(1) and a worst-case search time of O(n). Average search time is application dependent, but it's usually quite good.

      Another algorithm that I love using is Generational Garbage Collection. Unimportant stuff that I've downloaded or have created quickly gets placed in a temporary folder. If it grows to a reasonable level of importance, I move it somewhere else. The remaining junk is then flushed on occasion by deleting the entire contents of the temp directory. Very fast and tidy. ;-)
    7. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by metlin · · Score: 1

      I agree with most everything said, but to add my 2 cents, I believe that moderate messyness is good because it works like a cache and a priority queue.

      That I think is a personality trait.

      As someone who's anal-retentive about things being squeaky clean and organized, I find it hard to function unless things around me are uncluttered, the mess straightened out and everything organized.

      And while a bit of a mess maybe good, I find that having everything organized makes things (and life) extremely easy over the long run. Want something from 1999? Sure thing! Got it right here, just give me a minute. Not to nitpick, but I have often found that messy people can find things just as quickly as me in the short run, but over the long run, things get lost because they forget and lose track, while their things get lost in the mess.

      Now, my girlfriend has what she calls "organized chaos", i.e. a bit of a mess but she knows where everything is.

      At the end of the day, she functions great the way things are for her, and I function great with things being organized (to paraphrase my Dad, a place for everything and everything in its place).

      So, I don't think it is necessarily universal for everybody. Some people function well with things being messy, while some of us like everything to be perfectly organized.

    8. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by DescData · · Score: 1

      At last, I hoped someone you mention that the key is not letting cleaning distract you. If your head is where it should be, on your work, you will not notice a minor mess. When your reach some milestone and can relax, you notice things that could dusted, put away, etc. etc.
      IMHO

    9. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by try_anything · · Score: 1

      In other words, when he stopped managing himself and started managing other people, he suddenly realized that things he could impose by fiat and evaluate at a glance were much more important than he previously thought. What a shocker.

      When you only have a hammer, the whole world's a nail, and when your only tool is ordering people around, you tend not to give a damn about anything that can't be accomplished that way.

    10. Re:Absolutes are almost never correct by CrkHead · · Score: 1
      I used the exact opposite analogy selling computers in the mid 90's.

      This filing cabinet is like the hard drive where everything is stored. This desk where everything is in reach is like the memory. The thoughts right in this person's head is the cache, which has the quickest access.

      The most important lesson I learned in that job is that it is impossible to talk down to some people.

  11. that all fine and well..... by oliverthered · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Slobs are more productive when there's only one person (the slob) working on something, when you start having more than one person working on a job then you'll probably find the tidy people start overtaking the slobs quite quickly.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    1. Re:that all fine and well..... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      There is being messy and then there is organized which are very different. An organized person can be messy. So working in a group a person with a messy desk but yet still can share information easlly with other people. Working in groups requres a degree of working by yourself and working with other. You keep the information that you are working with others available to the others and information that you work on youself available to yourself then you are all set.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:that all fine and well..... by gentimjs · · Score: 1

      Only if they are all "tidy" the same way ... if one "tidy" person believes that everything under the sun should be alphabetically sorted, and another believes it should all be chronologically sorted .. I'm willing to bet there may be more serious issues than if one of them was working with the "slob"

    3. Re:that all fine and well..... by gonzo67 · · Score: 1

      My personal experience has taught me the opposite. I have been derided for being the "slob" yet end up being the one that gets most of the work done as the other person loses more things/information than I, cannot organize their thoughts or documentation so that others can read it, etc. I end up being the go to guy, and yet I still get my projects out.

    4. Re:that all fine and well..... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      My desk is a sty -- I clean it up once every six months or year when they threaten me at work.

      And yet, I'm the one who writes up full-blown how-to documents on how to do a complete build of our 12,000+ file project, how to do integrations, how to do this or that. And they come to me to solve the worst of the problems, when the factory has a problem, or the customer is purple in the face over something.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    5. Re:that all fine and well..... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Think of people like objects in a programming language. Each person-object has both public and private properties and methods. For instance I have some crap on my desk that's placed in such a location that others can find it. And there are things people can tell me to do. There are things that I know that can only be expressed as the result of a public method. There are things that I do that are only invoked by private methods - you can't sit here and tell me which keys to press, for example, because I simply won't stand for it. The point is that it doesn't really matter what format the data is stored in, the private variables of my desk, because you can use the public method drinkypoo.askFor() to get information from me.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:that all fine and well..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with your point, but generally speaking those who are messy with their own information are also messy with group information.

      My old boss swore up and down that his mess was organized and he could find whatever he needed. I'd seen him desperately searching through his mess more than once. Trying to find the information I needed involved pretty much the same process. Contrary to some of the above posts, the important stuff wasn't always near the top. Sometimes one "priority queue" gets placed on another and all that important stuff winds up in the middle. It doesn't always stay there, but when it does, it is effectively lost. Despite my boss' protestations of organization, when I couldn't find what I was looking for, I would occasionally clean up his desk. Lo and behold I'd find rather important items he had no idea were there such as backup tapes which should have been offsite (and sometimes were marked that way in our system) or important forms or reports that should have been dealt with weeks or months prior.

    7. Re:that all fine and well..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds like you aren't working closely with other people, you are just working on different parts of the same project.

      Working together with someone else on the same project requires that both people can find the information and such that they need. Having one person say, "Oh, I know where everything is," doesn't work well when that person is promoted/fired/sick/etc.

    8. Re:that all fine and well..... by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Slobs are more productive when there's only one person (the slob) working on something, when you start having more than one person working on a job then you'll probably find the tidy people start overtaking the slobs quite quickly.

      This is why I was so effective a slob bachelor, but can't find sh*t as a married man.

      Wife: "Why can't you put things away?!"
      Me: "Why can't you leave my stuff where I put it?! Stop moving stuff around!"
      Wife: "How can you find anything when it's all over the place?"
      Me: "When I was a bachelor I knew where everything was. The reason I can't find anything now is that you keep moving things around!"

      AARRGH! This same thing must play out in so many households. Of course it's always the "messy" person who's "at fault".

      --

      Operator, give me the number for 911!
    9. Re:that all fine and well..... by gonzo67 · · Score: 1

      I do investigations, and freguently deal with military unit commanders. I was the one called to address issues that my counterpart (the ranking one of the two of us) failed to address in a timely manner, if at all. His response was more of giving the answer he thought people wanted to hear, not always the answer they needed to hear. And it meant I had to frequently go into our database (which we both used....I at least do that much!), obtain the needed data, print it out, call the person who was asking what was going on....then finish the project to make our legally mandated deadlines. Sometimes, this meant doing a fair bit of research, but the web is useful, and knowing how to search meant I could get good answers today versus a non-answer a week later. This also meant I kept paperwork until a few weeks after the project was complete to ensure I could answer questions if they came up becuase of legal challenges.

    10. Re:that all fine and well..... by HiVizDiver · · Score: 1

      I have this battle with my wife all the time, except she's the slob. You know why it's always the messy person's fault? Because the credit card bill logically goes in a FILE FOLDER, not in the REFRIGERATOR.

      I find it hard to believe that messy people can't adapt to finding something in a file folder, for example - and yet somehow this month's credit card bill being under the lamp in the living room when last month it was in the sideboard is seen as "logical". If it goes in the file folder, it's ALWAYS THERE. Every month. With my wife's system? Could be anywhere.

      Seems to me that she should adapt to the system that is the most efficient, rather than me having to adapt to the system that CONSTANTLY CHANGES EVERY SINGLE DAY. Because at the end of the day? She usually CAN'T tell me where something is, but if I move a pile, all hell breaks loose because she allegedly knew RIGHT where something was before I moved the pile.

      Sorry, got off on a bit of a rant. :)

    11. Re:that all fine and well..... by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      It drive me nuts that my husband never puts things away, but can't remember where he left them either.


      There is a limited amount of available horizontal storage space available - if it has 2,000 DVD, half of our dishes, his glasses (somewhere), the unpaid bills, rubbish to go in the recycling, rubbish that is just rubbish, etc... everywhere you run out of space pretty quickly.


      I am by no means a neat freak, and have a tendancy to be a hoarder. But have a preference for rubish being disposed of at the earliest convenient opportunity and putting things away in the kitchen so there's room to cook.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
  12. Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by G4from128k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    FTFA: "When you're disorganized, it's an expense you have no control over, the cost in lost productivity," Izsak said. "You're losing money if you're not organized."

    As a veteran "messy" person I see the deep flaw in quotes about productivity losses due to disorganization. Neatness does not imply productive ease of access and mess does not imply disorganization. I know where things are on my mess of a desk. And every single time I waste time "organizing" it, I then waste time trying to find stuff.

    For me, and for other messy-deskers, neatness is the antithetical to productivity.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Remember the johnson report you created three weeks ago? I WANT THAT ON MY DESK IN 5 MINUTES OR YOU ARE FIRED BECAUSE WE WILL BE SUED!

      You have been WTFPWNED by messy-desk.

    2. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by Otter · · Score: 1
      Neatness does not imply productive ease of access and mess does not imply disorganization.

      In fairness, Izsak makes exactly that point a few sentences above. It's the guys promoting their book, with their made-up "findings", who are blurring the difference between the two.

    3. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by Philosinfinity · · Score: 1
      Maybe you missed the following line from grandparent:

      I know where things are on my mess of a desk.
    4. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by JrOldPhart · · Score: 1

      In other words, what works for you may not work as well for others.

      Stop trying to force others to conform to your ideals.

      Instead spend your time being productive.

      You memo telling me to cleanup is at the bottom of the furthest pile to the left.

      Right where I put it.

      --
      Nothing is foolproof, fools are too ingenious. - Murphy
    5. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by G4from128k · · Score: 1

      In fairness, Izsak makes exactly that point a few sentences above. It's the guys promoting their book, with their made-up "findings", who are blurring the difference between the two.

      No doubt both sides overplay their hand in promoting their beliefs of the costs/benefits of neatness/messiness. It always amuses me how everyone thinks that "normal" comes in one flavor. Perhaps its actually due to excessive empathy -- neat people shudder at the thought of living the messy-person's life and messy-people shudder at the thought of living the neat-person's life. Both sides think they could help the other side if they could just cure them of their affliction of neatness or messiness.

      --
      Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    6. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by digitig · · Score: 2, Funny

      Remember the johnson report you created three weeks ago? I WANT THAT ON MY DESK IN 5 MINUTES OR YOU ARE FIRED BECAUSE WE WILL BE SUED!

      "But it already is on your desk, under the pile of unread finance magazines and your coffee mug, between the leaving card for the guy who left last month that you've not signed yet and all those unpaid invoices!"

      But I do believe that a really tidy desk is a sure sign that the owner doesn't have enough to do.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    7. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by Enzo+the+Baker · · Score: 1
      Just an anecdote, but an amusing one...

      When I was in high school, I had one three ring binder for all my papers. The only thing that got impaled on the rings was my supply of blank notebook paper at the back. Anything handed to me in class, and any paper I had taken out and written on, got stuffed into the front of the binder. So the binder was basically a folder that minimally protected this roughly chronological heap of papers, from all my classes mixed together.

      In my Spanish class, we were doing worksheets that were from a different publisher than our main textbook. We did these worksheets out of order, to match the order in which we were doing things in the textbook. About halfway through the semester, my teacher lost track of which worksheets he had given us, and asked everyone to find all of the worksheets we had so that he could make a list of what we had already done. He shook his head as he watched me make my way through my stack of paper. Some of the older ones were a little rough around the edges, but I found significantly more worksheets than anyone else. His amazement was quite satisfying. "Do you mean to tell me...?"

      It was a victorious day for the messy-deskers.

      --
      I may twist orthodoxy to partly justify a tyrant. But I can easily make up a German philosophy to justify him entirely.
    8. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      No shit.
      I was almost written up for not having certain hard documents (expense report) to someone in time. Problem is that I already had turned in the documents to my (at the time) boss, who was a disorganized neatnick. When I pointed out to him that it was right there in his "in box" under his copy of golf digest the writeup was averted. Next thing I know I get my signed expense report back and stuffed in the confidential envelope with it was a contractors invoice that I should never have been allowed to see, which showed (among other things) that we were paying 7-10x the dollar amount to hire in contractors than the base wage + bonus for the 40% of the staff that was laid off as a "cost cutting measure". I called BS on that one, and since we had those wonderful scan and e-mail all in one's that didn't require a login to send e-mail I sent out a scanned copy of the invoice to the lab staff and the recently canned employees.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    9. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "...stuffed in the confidential envelope with it was a contractors invoice that I should never have been allowed to see, which showed (among other things) that we were paying 7-10x the dollar amount to hire in contractors than the base wage + bonus for the 40% of the staff that was laid off as a "cost cutting measure". I called BS on that one, and since we had those wonderful scan and e-mail all in one's that didn't require a login to send e-mail I sent out a scanned copy of the invoice to the lab staff and the recently canned employees."

      That's actually more and more the norm. Why not take a new approach....don't fight it. Incorp. yourself, become a contractor...and MAKE that kind of money, have that kind of freedom.

      Besides getting paid more, you get to do your own investments, you don't often get caught in office politics...AND it is one of the last few ways to keep YOUR money legally from the tax man.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    10. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by digitig · · Score: 1

      That's actually more and more the norm. Why not take a new approach....don't fight it. Incorp. yourself, become a contractor...and MAKE that kind of money, have that kind of freedom. I am a contractor, but I don't make that kind of money. There are a lot of overheads: insurance, pensions, holidays, accountants, gaps between contracts and so on that don't necessarily show in a payslip. I earn about the same as a contractor as I did as a permie, but I get a lot more variety in my work. Oh, and when it comes to office politics, the contractor is often the fall-guy (it's not unknown for that to be why the contractor is brought in in the first place).
      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    11. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "I am a contractor, but I don't make that kind of money. There are a lot of overheads: insurance, pensions, holidays, accountants, gaps between contracts and so on that don't necessarily show in a payslip."

      You might wanna try jacking up that bill rate a bit. I find that things like the pensions (doing your own IRA's/401K's) are big tax breaks...do you write off everything you can like mileage? Tolls? With insurance...I'm looking at doing the HSA with the high deductible insurance...throw a bunch of money in a HSA, that can not only shelter you from taxes, but, can be invested to grow, and you can spend on any medical expenses tax free. Get Quickbooks if you don't already have it...(the only reason I have one windows computer in the house). I do most all of my finance tracking on that...and send it in once a year to a CPA for taxes...so, along with a conversation or two yearly...that's only about $400.

      Yeah..gaps can be a PITA, but, not too bad if you can plan and save ahead for them...work IS picking up in the US. If you can get a bill rate in the $50-$100/hr ranges...those types of expenses aren't much to worry about. And those rates are not all that hard to get....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    12. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by digitig · · Score: 1

      You might wanna try jacking up that bill rate a bit. Then the gaps get longer! What I'm earning seems to be ok for a consultant with my experience here in the UK. Er, are we drifting off topic?
      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    13. Re:Flawed refutation: neatness != organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is stupid.

      If the boss needs a report I created 3 weeks ago in 5 minutes or we're dead, it means that either he wrongly decided it wasn't important enough for his attention (his disorganization), that it was important but he neglected to prepare for the meeting/phone call/whatever (his disorganization), or that it was but he lost his copy (his disorganization).

      Either way, my mess is not the reason we'll get sued.

  13. He seems to think that "neatness" requires by antifoidulus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    time being spent on the upkeep of said neatness:

    "People who are really, really neat, between what it takes to be really neat at the office and at home, typically will spend anywhere from an hour to four hours a day just organizing and neatening," he said.

    Why not automate your neatness instead? I am a very messy person, which is actually one reason I like my mac. iTunes automatically organizes my music collection in a very accessible manner, with a few rules applied to mail I can quickly organize all my email messages, with expose I can find the window I need with the touch of a button(since I tend to leave too many open), and with spotlight I can quickly find the version of my resume I want to use with just a few terms. I am much more productive because I can be neat without having to slave over it. Time saving and neatness aren't mutually exclusive.

    1. Re:He seems to think that "neatness" requires by failedlogic · · Score: 1

      One to four hours a day just organizing? Where do I sign-up? If its a full-time job, I'm sure I can fill the rest of my day with filler tasks!

      My sister is a bit of a neat-freak. I almost always change where something is just to wait until she notices. Always fun!

    2. Re:He seems to think that "neatness" requires by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      iTunes automatically organizes my music collection in a very accessible manner, with a few rules applied to mail I can quickly organize all my email messages, with expose I can find the window I need with the touch of a button(since I tend to leave too many open), and with spotlight I can quickly find the version of my resume I want to use with just a few terms.

      Okay, so you've made the point, you like your mac. But what all of these examples except for Mail have in common is that they're not really about being more organized. They're about being able to extract information from a disordered set in a reasonable period of time. iTunes, Expose, and Spotlight's approach to helping you find information isn't organization, it's search.

      iTunes is somewhere in between because you are expected to develop metadata for the content, putting it into a category and such. But you don't need to, and most people I'm sure do not. They use whatever metadata is within the content already.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:He seems to think that "neatness" requires by try_anything · · Score: 1

      Why not automate your neatness instead?

      Because we don't have robots to keep our physical stuff in order, only computers to keep our information in (virtual) order.

  14. I am a slob by vision33r · · Score: 1

    My desk is cluttered, my windows desktop is cluttered. Yet, I get more work done than the guy sitting next to me who is a clean freak. He spends hours cleaning and fixing his desk as well as daily organizing his files, managing his windows desktop, and productivity goes towards it. During meetings, he depends on documenting everything while you ask him in the hallway and he has no recollecting of any topics discussed unless he referred to his notes. What I realize is the clean freaks are spending too much processes on organizing not much on substance.

    1. Re:I am a slob by Skim123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the message isn't, "Messy is better!", but rather that what's most productive is if the neat people have neat environs and the messy people messy ones. I am a messy slob and am most productive in my cluttered workspace. If I was told from a boss that I had to clean my desk, that would stifle my productivity. But my coworker may be a guy who needs neat, clean, tidy spaces to be optimal. For him, if the boss told him that he had to have a cluttered desk, he'd be just as unproductive as I would if I had an organized one.

      --

      I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.

    2. Re:I am a slob by iago-vL · · Score: 1
      There's a bit of an issue there for me. I have a chronically bad memory, and I forget most things within an hour after I hear them, unless they're written down. So if I don't take notes in a meeting and you ask me about something in a hallway afterwards, I may not remember or be able to remember it, no matter how close attention I was paying.

      I'm not a neat person, but I do have to keep things in predictable places to stop them from being lost, and I do have to take notes to remind myself what I was supposed to do. It's not because I'm organized, it's a way to cope.

    3. Re:I am a slob by drgruney · · Score: 1

      Similar to me. In my University courses I never take notes (I literally walk into class without anything to write with or on). Yet I outperform many (not all) of my friends who take notes. I've noticed that the people who take notes in multiple colors do the worst. They spend so much time swapping pens, keeping to their format, and stressing about what the teacher is saying that they miss the information.

    4. Re:I am a slob by dweebzilla · · Score: 1

      He sounds like a genius in marketing himself...
      1. Works less than you cause he's cleaning and not working.
      2. Bosses tend to see this busy-work as 'productivity'.
      3. He's prolly taking home a similar paycheck to you.
      4. Willing to bet he gets noticed more because he's neat.
      5. Might even be on the track to a promotion because of it.
      6. You might be overlooked because he is in fact so neat.


      Conclusion, You must kill and eat him to own his neatness.

      I actually knew an IT guy that proclaimed "Looking busy from a distance is the key to success"

      --
      Get your tagline off my lawn.
    5. Re:I am a slob by vision33r · · Score: 1

      Actually, I make more than that person. The person that sits next to me is a peer but makes less because I was hired more recent and negotiated better. The "neat-freak" guy has a habit of creating complex "processes" to doing the same tasks that I perform. At meetings, clearly he isn't very organized his thoughts are a mess. Takes him 3-4 sentences to get to the point where I like to keep things concise. I do believe there are neat folks that succeed very well but often its the use of organization to simplify work not making it more work.

  15. Chaos by JoeRandomHacker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    True personal clutter amounts to a chaotic system based on the mental patterns of the clutterer. There is a pattern in the chaos, but the initial state and the chaos function are in the mind of the creator, so while to any outside observer it just looks like a mess, to the creator it makes perfect sense.

    1. Re:Chaos by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is probably the most insightful post on the topic so far. The key to productiviy is that the producer must be able to catalog the information for efficient retrieval. Filing cabinets and stacks and folders are all very good storge methods for retrieval, especially when there is more than one individual involved. But for an individual project, someone who can remember where everything is in a "mess" by using their own mental filing index can be just as efficient, and moreso if the retrieval of the information takes less time than waliking to a defined filing area.

      The danger of this is that you are zero fault tolerant - one bus (or lottery ticket, for you optimists) is all it takes to cause a significant setback in the project schedule. It also reduces parallelism on projects which require the coordination of many people who must access the information on a regular basis.

      I am, admitedly, a piler, and I have a very large desk (3'x8' plus a 3'x4' section for the computer) but I find that beyond a certain level of randomness I lose efficiency. I keep things out so I don't forget about them, but it make it very difficult for the others in my office to find things. I have to let my efficiency suffer a small amount by filing things, but the overall productivity of the office increases when I do so.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Chaos by Stevecrox · · Score: 1

      Whats "True Personnal Clutter"? I need a little tidyness, I do a lot of my university work at home if I just let things build up with some minor attempts at organisation I can't find things normally I have to give up 5-8 hours to tidy said mess and then I can be productive again.

      I have a system it works extremly well for me, when I'm telling Orange to kill my contract and I have proof I only agreed to a 12 month one I can put my hand on the letter involved in seconds.

      I wouldn't say 'personnal clutter' I'm a naturally tidy person all my lecture notes for a module go in a module folder, phone records in a phone folder because of this I can find everything in seconds. One of my friends isnt his notes are a jumble and unfathomemble to anyone but him, but he can find what he needs in seconds as well. When it comes to 'filing' slobbyness and ultra neatness have their places and depending on how a person thinks depends on what is more productive for them. When it comes to group resources then neatness counts, slobbyness doesnt work.

      In short by allowing people to organising stuff according to the way people think we get the most productiveness, but when these people share resources then applying a method will make the system just as accessible to everyone. This amazingly obvious statement is brought to you by Steve.

    3. Re:Chaos by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The danger of this is that you are zero fault tolerant - one bus (or lottery ticket, for you optimists) is all it takes to cause a significant setback in the project schedule. It also reduces parallelism on projects which require the coordination of many people who must access the information on a regular basis.

      I keep the most important things in special, organized places. My car registrations and such are in a fireproof file box. My spending money and various pieces of identification and such are in my wallet. I don't think many people use just one system or the other except the anal-compulsive neat freaks.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Chaos by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      If you're working on a $10M project (and that's not a big project these days) and you get hit by a bus, the information on your desk is worth a lot more than the cash in your wallet, and possibly your car registration. Of course, not to you (at least not anymore), but to your employer it could cost quite a sum in lost hours to recreate your work from a non-standard filing system. Not being a neat freak isn't the end of the world, but the efficiency you realize using a "custom" filing system has to be weighed against the potential expense.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    5. Re:Chaos by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you're working on a $10M project (and that's not a big project these days) and you get hit by a bus, the information on your desk is worth a lot more than the cash in your wallet, and possibly your car registration.

      Dude, it was just an example. Any data that is actually important to my employer is on the computer, on the network share, being backed up, because paper is fucking stupid and I despise it and never commit anything important to it. You can't search paper! At least, not efficiently.

      the information on your desk is worth a lot more than the cash in your wallet, and possibly your car registration. Of course, not to you (at least not anymore)

      So what do I care? :)

      but to your employer it could cost quite a sum in lost hours to recreate your work from a non-standard filing system

      This is why projects have deliverables.

      Not being a neat freak isn't the end of the world, but the efficiency you realize using a "custom" filing system has to be weighed against the potential expense.

      Around this place they wouldn't have any idea what they were looking at anyway :P

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Chaos by zobier · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't it be great if we could create aliases for our files (which get updated automatically when we move the files around) and organise these in various ways to suit different work-flows, and multiple people being able to access these files simultaneously. Also being able to add tags and other meta-data and be able to search by these might be useful. Oh, some kind of automated version control would be good too.

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
    7. Re:Chaos by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

      My desk, right now definately represents me to the full extent.

      I am either spotless or filthy.

      Since I have an L shaped desk, the part I'm sitting at right now is clean, the other half of the desk is covered in a pile of crap which I "need to address" but haven't - I know it's there and I've been meaning to do it but I just don't need to as much - it's a lower priority.

      It's much like my file system sadly

      All 3 drives are very very neat and simple /movies/ /data/ and /music/ for example on each drive too but also each drive has a /!sort/ directory on them - oh it's NASTY in there, just don't look.

      Also my house - loungeroom and kitchen - surprisingly at the moment, spotless but you go into the study? good lord, it's a disaster.

  16. I know where stuff is by slaker · · Score: 1, Interesting

    My desk is covered by a six inch high mound of papers, optical discs and spare kit (no food, contrary to the accusations of other people), but I can find anything I want in that pile in under 15 seconds. The only thing that actually messes me up is when co-workers put things on my desk and don't tell me. I have an in-box on my door for that, but they like to stick things on my desk anyway, just so it can be my fault when I don't know about some new item.

    --
    -- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
    1. Re:I know where stuff is by slaker · · Score: 4, Informative

      Clutter hint:
      Switch to a trackball as your primary pointing device. That way you'll have an extra square foot or so of horizontal desk surface on which to pile things!

      --
      -- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
    2. Re:I know where stuff is by MrNougat · · Score: 1

      Or, speed up your mouse pointer so you're not waving your arm all over the desk to get the pointer to go across the screen. Set it up fast enough, and just flexing your fingers on the mouse will do anything you need.

      --
      Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
    3. Re:I know where stuff is by icydog · · Score: 1

      And if you're really efficient, you can actually have the trackball under an overhang of papers or other clutter so that the trackball doesn't hog the airspace above it!

    4. Re:I know where stuff is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I need less than a quarter of that space for my mouse. With acceleration set on a mouse a quick flick can move my mouse pointer from one side of the screen to the other with the actual mouse moving less than an inch and moving the mouse slowly gives precision when you need it. Perhaps you never learnt how to use a mouse properly.

    5. Re:I know where stuff is by slaker · · Score: 1

      That's not the case at all.

      But with a trackball and acceleration set to highest, I barely have to move my thumb and you're moving your whole goddamned hand like some kind of chump. Not only am I more productive with all my extra messy desk space, but I'm also more energy-efficient. I am saving precious calories and doing my part for a greener world!

      --
      -- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
    6. Re:I know where stuff is by louks · · Score: 1

      One thing I've discovered in dealing with my spatially organized fiancee is that I organize things in a temporal sense. It's not that I know WHERE something is, rather than WHEN something is.

      I knew that the bow tie I left hanging on the handle loop of the hutch on the desk in my parents' house was there because I remember WHEN I saw it there last. Sure, that when was almost four years ago, but that's how my mind works, and I could walk right in and find it.

      I think people who are considered to be messy geniuses live in clutter because they don't care where things go, as long as they remember the last time they saw it. And they do so very well. Large layers are organized in temporal strata, just like geology, so they can even work backward as to if that piece of paper was handled before or after the one for which they are looking.

    7. Re:I know where stuff is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL Yeah I have mine set so tight that if I think hard enough, the pointer moves.

      One a more somber note. It's interesting to note that young computer users typically like the tighter mouse setups than older people. I am sure it has something to do with age and fine motor control. People hate my computer settings since they can never find the mouse pointer.

    8. Re:I know where stuff is by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Another huge help is to get one of those "happy hacker" layout keyboards (essentially, a keyboard without the numpad, like most laptops). That usually will give you another nice chunk of prime real estate on your desk back. Of course, if you rely heavily on the numpad this may not be for you.

    9. Re:I know where stuff is by zobier · · Score: 1

      Pointing device? Real Geeks use the keyboard to navigate the computer.

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
  17. More productive? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

    Whether a messy person is more productive than a neat one depends on several factors, which the summary and article fail to mention -- I have no idea if the book touches on them.

    1. Method of maintaining neatness. The article talks about time wasted maintaining neatness, and says that neatniks spend 1-4 hours per day on this. But I didn't see any discussion of time spent looking for lost items, nor did I see any mention of time-saving organizational techniques such as "handle it once" or file-as-you-go.

    2. Type of production. Certain types of work demand organization -- such as information handling, accounting, etc. Messiness in those positions will be less efficient and productive than orderliness. Creative positions, on the other hand, may benefit from disorder.

    Reading the article, I felt that no case was made for greater productivity by slobs. Yes, there was a discussion of certain factors make disorder potentially better in certain situations, but the headline overstates the summary. I'd like to read the book and see if the article understates, accurately summarizes, or overstates the book's conclusions.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    1. Re:More productive? by jizziknight · · Score: 1

      Agreed, particularly on the method of maintaining neatness. Personally, I subscribe to the "everything has a place" method. Once you're done using something, put it back where it came from (or where it is supposed to go) rather than just placing it wherever. You never have to actually set aside time to tidy up, since you're in a perpetual state of tidiness. Really, this can translate into either ordered messiness (which is what most people seem to agree would be productive) or tidiness. In either state, it is productive, because you automatically know where anything is, whether it's filed away neatly, or in a stack of papers on top of a week old pizza box. It's all about how order is maintained by the individual, not how orderly things appear to an observer.

      --
      Everything I say is a lie. Except that... and that... and that, and that, and that, and that... and that.
    2. Re:More productive? by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Once you're done using something, put it back where it came from (or where it is supposed to go) rather than just placing it wherever. You never have to actually set aside time to tidy up, since you're in a perpetual state of tidiness."

      This is one of the myths that tidy people tend to believe. It looks like a truth on the face, as the statements are technically true, but you must remember that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5. If you spend one minute each time you put something away, you didn't save that time, you just hide the time you spent tidying up in other tasks.

      My anecdote is about when my wife was a waitress. She would stop at all of her tables to find out if they needed anything, then go and get the stuff. This would seem to be the messy method, as she could have a dozen requests all just stuck up in her head. The waitresses that would take a request, and fulfill that request before getting another, simply could not keep up. They could only handle half as many tables, and then were constantly rushed on top of that. The point was to make as few trips as possible. This saves huge amounts of time. The principle does not change when your talking about little trips to your filing cabinet. You may gain other benefits from tidying up after every step, but it is not a time savings based on no cleaning time.

    3. Re:More productive? by Jonny+do+good · · Score: 1

      2. Type of production. Certain types of work demand organization -- such as information handling, accounting, etc. Messiness in those positions will be less efficient and productive than orderliness. Creative positions, on the other hand, may benefit from disorder.

      I couldn't agree more. I have managed the bookkeeping department before and know how bad it can be for a bookkeeper to be disporganized. One of the last people we let go was let go for that reason alone. We couldn't follow the paper trail on several occasions and it always amounted to the poor organization of the bookkeeper. On the other hand I was the senior accountant and IT guy and had a very messy desk at all times with no problems. Since I only reviewed financials and fixed problems I didn't keep the bookkeeping documents on my desk. When I needed a file I used it an put it back ASAP so it idn't end up at the bottom of my pile in the "unimportant" section.

      If the bookkeepers maintained a system like mine all hell would have broke loose. We actually got most of our business because other firms were unable to maintain books in an orderly fashion. When we took over management (we managed homeowner and condo associations as wll as maintained their books... we maintained about 100 sets of financials on a monthly basis) we had to go through everything and essentially perform an audit just to get stuff in some logical order (preferably our sense of order). For the most part our office was well organized and full of "neat freaks", but most of the office was support staff that needed effective group communication and collective organization in order to perform their duties. The property managers and people like myself that had their hands in a lot of things often developed their own organizaion (or disorganization from an outside perspective) systems, but their work is much more independent and requires much less colloboration with others.

      The article summary is definately lacking in a solid justification for its conclusion. Some jobs, particularly highly collaborative or dealing with sensitive data that must be accurate, require high levels of organization and tidyness in order to maximize productivity. Other jobs, particularly creative jobs or ones that require little collaboration require much less organization. I would like to agree with the article since I am usually the one being pressed to clean up my desk, but I don't really belive that it can be used in all situations, or even a majority of them.

    4. Re:More productive? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      Your anecdote, though, is different, since it is about things to be done, not things to be set aside for future use. Immediacy was still a concern for your wife when she was aggregating tasks.

      You may gain other benefits from tidying up after every step, but it is not a time savings based on no cleaning time.
      Not necessarily, it depends on your filing system. I've got it set up so that files I use frequently are within easy reach of my desk (both at home and at work). Rather than leaving it on the desk until later, it really does reduce clean-up time by popping it into the file in the drawer as soon as I'm done with a document. Things that are not filed within easy reach are held for filing with other like documents at some other point -- the end of the day, typically.

      I guess my point is that it may be most efficient to use a combination of techniques.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    5. Re:More productive? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Uh...Immediately filing things does fall under the category of "immediacy was still a concern". You are also now back peddling and saying that you don't REALLY stay in a state of tidiness. This still leaves us with the fact that tidying up immediately is just hiding the time by counting it as part of another task. Calling it a time savings is just bad accounting.

    6. Re:More productive? by jizziknight · · Score: 1

      Your anecdote is more of an issue of multi-tasking than tidiness vs. messiness. Someone who can multi-task is going to be more production that someone who can't.

      What you need to realize is that the time spent putting something in it's place is minimal compared to the time it would take to find it if it were not where it is supposed to be. Tidiness or messiness is irrelevant as long as there is a sense of order for the individual. What you see as a mess may be their organizational scheme.

      Also, I've found that it takes far longer to clean up (or organize) all at once than it does to maintain that organization as you go. There is also the issues of how quickly things become messy (unorganized) again, and how often you have to clean up. If things become messy again very quickly, and you're cleaning up every day, it would be more productive to keep things organized as you go.

      Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But think about how long it would take to clean your home if you never put things back where they belong and left it all for once. You'd be spending an entire day every week cleaning, rather than less than an hour a day throughout the week. And when you needed something throughout the week, you'd know exactly where it was, and would never have to go looking for anything.

      --
      Everything I say is a lie. Except that... and that... and that, and that, and that, and that... and that.
    7. Re:More productive? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Immediately filing things does fall under the category of "immediacy was still a concern".
      Not at all. The filing can wait -- but I choose to do it immediately. The concern is efficiency, not immediacy at all.

      You are also now back peddling and saying that you don't REALLY stay in a state of tidiness.
      Not at all. You're interpreting what you want to interpret, rather than what I've written. Just because I have a file folder labeled "archives" at my desk, where I place archival documents until I bother crossing the hall to the archives so I can file them all at once, doesn't mean that I'm not tidy.

      This still leaves us with the fact that tidying up immediately is just hiding the time by counting it as part of another task.
      No, since filing it where it belongs replaces putting it down on the desk, but mostly saves time by not having to visually rescan the item to determine where to file it. Do you understand the time savings there, by not duplicating efforts?

      Calling it a time savings is just bad accounting.
      Please see my last point. There is definite time savings there.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    8. Re:More productive? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      "Not at all. The filing can wait -- but I choose to do it immediately. The concern is efficiency, not immediacy at all."



      Why you feel something needs to be done immediately does not change how long it takes to actually do it, or the fact that you want it done immediately.

      "Just because I have a file folder labeled "archives" at my desk, where I place archival documents until I bother crossing the hall to the archives so I can file them all at once, doesn't mean that I'm not tidy."

      Yes it does. Stuffing all of your papers into a folder or piling them on the desk is no different, other than the fact that your "hiding your mess in the folder, and taking longer to do it in the process.

      No, since filing it where it belongs replaces putting it down on the desk, but mostly saves time by not having to visually rescan the item to determine where to file it. Do you understand the time savings there, by not duplicating efforts?"

      There is no time savings. You are just spending time rescanning the files instead of rescanning the items. You have not saved any time in that. Your bad accounting is clear in that you claim filing something takes the same amount of time as just setting it on your desk. Filing something, even if it is a file sitting on your desk is going to take at least twice as long. If it is in a drawer, it will take you five times as long, if it is on the other side of your office, it will take you 10 times as long, and if it is in the cabinet in the hall, can take a hundred times as long. I would honest to goodness be willing to bet real money on my ability to win a race between me dropping a piece of paper on my desk, and another persons ability to file that same piece of paper. To say they take the same amount of time is just bad accounting.

    9. Re:More productive? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Why you feel something needs to be done immediately does not change how long it takes to actually do it, or the fact that you want it done immediately.
      But it doesn't make on whit of difference if I file now or file later, in terms of the product of the activity; as opposed to the wife, who HAD to deliver drinks, etc, in a timely manner. Are you trying to not understand that timeliness is not a output control for optimizing filing efficiency? I don't feel that it needs to be done immediately; I feel that it needs to be done with a minimum of wasted effort, so why put it down where I'll need to pick it back up and review it again?

      Stuffing all of your papers into a folder or piling them on the desk is no different, other than the fact that your "hiding your mess in the folder, and taking longer to do it in the process.
      You're visualizing something far different from what I do; again, interpreting what you want to, without regard for actuality.

      our bad accounting is clear in that you claim filing something takes the same amount of time as just setting it on your desk. Filing something, even if it is a file sitting on your desk is going to take at least twice as long. If it is in a drawer, it will take you five times as long, if it is on the other side of your office, it will take you 10 times as long, and if it is in the cabinet in the hall, can take a hundred times as long. I would honest to goodness be willing to bet real money on my ability to win a race between me dropping a piece of paper on my desk, and another persons ability to file that same piece of paper.
      Now you're being daft. I would bet my life savings that if you were to drop that piece of paper on your desk, then pick it back up later to file it, the total time you spend on that piece of paper will be longer than if you just filed it immediately (again, for the type of file that doesn't require you to move in order to file it).

      Now, before you respond, READ my post. DON'T skim it and dispute things that I didn't write. DON'T assume you know what I'm going to say before you read it. And DON'T respond before thinking through the implications of having to deal with every sheet of paper twice.

      To say they take the same amount of time is just bad accounting.
      But that's not the time figures I was comparing. Apples and oranges, bub. You forgot to include the amount of time it would take you to eventually file that paper. And if you don't file it, then you have to consider the amount of time you spend looking for misplaced documents three months down the road when you need that paper -- which is beyond the scope of this discussion. At any rate, if there's bad accounting going on, it's being done by the person who is failing to consider the full amount of time spent dealing with each sheet of paper.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    10. Re:More productive? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I would say that tidiness is a crutch for an inability to multi-task and remember where things are. The time it takes to put something away is only gained back if you don't have the ability to remember where you put it on your desk the last time you used it. Remembering the state of things is a key factor in being able to multi-task.

      If by an entire day, you mean 6 or 7 hours, and by less than an hour a day, you mean 59 minutes, you have gained no time. I would argue though that it would not take all day to clean up. You will have a hard time convincing me that if my son spends three minutes picking up his checkers each day, that he will save time over spending three minutes picking them up at the end of the week. You are also not going to convince me that taking my families clothes each night and running them through the wash is going to save time over waiting until the end of the week, and doing 3 loads on Saturday. While there might be benefits to being tidy, efficiency is definitely not one of them. Thinking that it is, is just bad accounting.

    11. Re:More productive? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      "But it doesn't make on whit of difference if I file now or file later"

      Yes, it does. It is a contradiction to say that it is faster to file an item immediately because you filed it later.

      "You're visualizing something far different from what I do; again, interpreting what you want to, without regard for actuality."

      Then you described it very badly. Although given that you say you file things later AND immediately, that seems to fit.

      "Now you're being daft. I would bet my life savings that if you were to drop that piece of paper on your desk, then pick it back up later to file it, the total time you spend on that piece of paper will be longer than if you just filed it immediately (again, for the type of file that doesn't require you to move in order to file it)."

      Name calling doesn't make you right. If you point is that a piece of paper that will never need to be accessed again, can be filed with no movement is faster than I can drop the piece of paper on my desk and then file it later, you are probably right. Of course I have yet to see a filing system that requires no movement. That would truly be an innovation. If you mean that you don't have to get up out of your seat, you are still correct as long as you never need that paper again. The first time you have to go back to that file, and I just pick the piece of paper up off of my desk, you have lost any gains you made. Then when you put it back in the file, you are behind.

      Your example relies on the idea that each piece of paper will be handle only once. This is a very rare situation, and I would say that when it is the case, the best filing system is to just file it all into the circular file. Most paperwork either goes into archives which are not going to be in your desk drawer, or are used repeatedly, with makes the 'I only handle the paper once' argument an invalid argument.

      You seem to be basing your argument on some ill-defined special case scenario. There are large quantities of paperwork that will never need to be filed. They will simply be destroyed or disposed of at the end of their useful life. As for looking for misplaced document three months down the road, that only happens if you can't remember where you put the documents. Tidiness can certainly be used as a crutch for an inability to remember things, but that certainly doesn't argue against the original premise that messy people are more productive. That just argues that tidy people who try to be messy will fail.

    12. Re:More productive? by jizziknight · · Score: 1

      Obviously there are cases where it fails to be true, which are the ones you are pointing out, but failing to see the rest. Sure if your son ONLY plays with checkers, your example holds true. But say he plays with a completely different toy every thirty minutes. It's going to take a hell of a lot longer to put all of those away at the end of the week, rather than when he's done playing with it, as he's retrieving the next one.

      Also, multi-tasking and time-saving is a crutch for those who are unable to be tidy and/or manage their time well.

      And as far as remembering where things are... I prefer to use my memory for more important things. I don't need to waste it remembering where in the clutter that might be my desk I put that printout of my TPS report.

      We're arguing over things that aren't even relevant to my point. It's not whether you're tidy or messy that makes you more productive, it's whether or not you have a good organizational system. I think you're missing tidy == organized correlation.

      --
      Everything I say is a lie. Except that... and that... and that, and that, and that, and that... and that.
    13. Re:More productive? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Yes, it does. It is a contradiction to say that it is faster to file an item immediately because you filed it later.
      And when did I say that? Never. What I'm saying is that filing is not urgent, so when it gets done is not important. This is independent of the importance of how long it takes me to file it (plus how long retrieval takes) which is the primary consideration when you're talking about filing efficiency, which we are. This is the point that you seem to ignore in every post, which is why, in my frustration, I called you daft.

      Let me try to explain via your waitress analogy. So the tables order drinks -- if they don't get them quickly, then there are negative consequences -- these tasks have urgency, immediacy is a consideration. However, say that the waitress also needs to submit her tabs for each section to the section managers, who are in the back office. This is a matter that is not urgent, but must be done at some point. Since this is a matter without urgency, that is best done all-at-once at the end of her shift. Say instead, that she needs to put the tabs for each section (say, two or three sections) in different envelopes before handing them to the managers. In this case, there is still no urgency, but it is most efficient to have three envelopes at the register, and to place each tab in the correct envelope when she closes it out.

      Although given that you say you file things later AND immediately, that seems to fit.
      Again, your substituting what you want to believe with what I wrote. Go back and re-read the thread. Isn't it perfectly clear that I classify documents according to whether it's more efficient to file them immediately or more efficient to file them in batches (for example, if they are archival files that need to be filed across the hall)? Or did you choose to ignore the post where I explicitly stated that?

      Obviously you are dealing with a low-volume environment. I'm dealing with many financial documents, which not only cannot be discarded, but must be re-accessed often, without delays for searching -- and when you have a couple thousand of them, keeping them on top of your desk is not an option. This is not an uncommon or unique situation, most medium-to-large companies have several employees in this situation.

      Most paperwork either goes into archives which are not going to be in your desk drawer, or are used repeatedly, with makes the 'I only handle the paper once' argument an invalid argument.
      Not so. I'm not sure in what capacity you are handling paperwork, but it seems to me that you don't deal with files that need to be accessed for regular operations, nor do you deal with a high volume. You also need to differentiate between action items and reference documents. Yes, I'm 'handling' (i.e. acting on an item) once, but referring back to the document is a different story, and needs to be accounted for in your organizational setup.

      As for looking for misplaced document three months down the road, that only happens if you can't remember where you put the documents.
      Sure. If you handle a few documents a day or week, it's no problem to leave them on your desk.

      Basically, you're looking at it from the perspective of someone who's line of work does not necessitate strong organization. I'm looking at it (see my OP) from the perspective of a high-volume position.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    14. Re:More productive? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      "Also, multi-tasking and time-saving is a crutch for those who are unable to be tidy and/or manage their time well."

      And there we have it. Efficiency is generally viewed as doing many things in a short period of time, not as being tidy and having a plan. It seems that you are not arguing that tidy is efficient, but that tidy is tidy.

    15. Re:More productive? by jizziknight · · Score: 1

      You're still missing that I'm using tidy to mean organized.

      And what I meant by the above statement (since you obviously didn't get it) is that people use multi-tasking and time-savings as an excuse for not being organized, and not being able to manage their time. One can multi-task just as well being organized.

      You seem to me like you're simply arguing about my method of remaining organized (everything has a place, etc) rather than whether being organized makes you more efficient. Note that I'm not saying a messy (to the observer) desk is unorganized. It may very well be to the one using it.

      My point is that I don't think it's a matter of whether tidy or messy people are more productive, it's whether organized or disorganized people are more productive. Someone who may appear very messy, might indeed be very organized, it's just that their organization scheme makes no sense to anyone but them.

      It might be worth noting that I'm a very tidy and organized person, and also one of the more productive people in my department.

      --
      Everything I say is a lie. Except that... and that... and that, and that, and that, and that... and that.
  18. Not surprising by Per+Wigren · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In the places I've worked, people's desks' messiness has been quite proportionate to their tech knowledge and productivity. They have been the most skilled, most productive, and also often the most humble and nice. Yet usually they are the ones least appreciated by the bosses...

    --
    My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    1. Re:Not surprising by aicrules · · Score: 1

      It is not causitive relationship. It is a correlation. There are a high percentage of tech job workers that feel organization is lower priority than writing lines of code or whatever their job is. There are software engineers who feel that it is unnecessary neatness to use source control...and then the tower of half filled mt. dew cans topples over on their computer nuking everything and they take the day off because they no longer have anything to work on.

    2. Re:Not surprising by femalesam · · Score: 1

      I have to agree. The most intelligent person at my company has had a can of chicken sitting on his desk for almost a year. I (miss organized) notice it everytime I walk by. I don't think he even sees it.

    3. Re:Not surprising by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      I don't think he even sees it. I think you mipselt smells it...
  19. This is nonsense. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It sounds to me like someone is trying to justify their sloppiness.

    Visit an organized, smoothly operating factory; everything is neat and clean. Go so a good mechanic; the shop is organized and neat. From personal experience I have yet to deal with a slob that is exceptionally productive.

    This is yet another example of cause and effect getting mixed up. I tend to keep my work and living space neat. I have trouble focusing when things are too much of a mess. More importantly, if things are disorganized I end up wasting too much time trying to find what I need. However, when I get busy, when I'm under a tight deadline, I tend to leave things a mess. I have more important things to do than to worry about cleaning up.

    If anything, a mess is counter-productive. Again, I submit an example from personal experience. My father tends to be very disorganized with his tools. His office and workshop are both a mess. Although he will always insist he can find anything he needs if no one disrupts his mess. But then he'll spend twice as long working on something because he can't find tool he needs. And I can't count the times he's spent ages looking for something buried under all his paperwork.

    So it's not necessarily that slobs are more productive, but that these people are possibly too busy to clean up. The guy who's workspace is always excessively neat probably has too much free time on his hands. I certainly believe that, but it doesn't mean slobs are somehow more productive.

    1. Re:This is nonsense. by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Go so a good mechanic; the shop is organized and neat.

      I respectfully disagree with you on this point. Some of the best mechanics I've seen have spare parts, dismantled vehicles, and toolboxes seemingly strewn about in a haphazard fashion. Yet they can diagnose and repair an issue inside 15 minutes. They even know how to bring a past-its-prime vehicle back from the dead.

      On the other hand, the corporate meathead mechanics (who couldn't diagnose a flat tire without a computer telling them that it's flat) tend to keep incredibly clean shops. All their tools are put away neatly, old parts are never kept as spares, oil is cleaned up as soon as its spilled, and all the new parts are safely warehoused in their original boxes. Very neat and tidy, but utterly useless to the customer. Especially when it takes then three and a half hours to put a new battery in a vehicle. :-/
    2. Re:This is nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In other words, you're a neat-o, and you think it's a superior style, so you'll justify being a neat-o by making false assumptions.

      The best mechanic I've ever seen (my motorcycle mechanic) has shit EVERYWHERE. My anecdote cancels yours quite nicely.

      Lastly something you are missing (intentionally I believe) is that "messiness" isn't "less organized" it's DIFFERENTLY organized. Your insistence that people lose shit and waste time finding it is an assumption that is based on nothing more than your personal prejudice.

    3. Re:This is nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So far I have only seen excuses of neat person complaining about what he cannot find if he is disorganized, but that does not applied. I have not seen an unorganized person forcing everyone else to be the same. Shame on you.

      A messy person's organization vs organized person is like a hash vs sort. The same type of limitation for both methods applies. Too much stuff to sort, then the overhead is an issue. Too little space, then hashing would only point you to a pile that you have to do a linear search.

      The neat person cannot find stuff in a hash without resorting to a linear search.
      A disorganized person would not be able to follow the hash if the pile is distrubted.

    4. Re:This is nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Visit an organized, smoothly operating factory; everything is neat and clean. Go so a good mechanic; the shop is organized and neat.

      So what you're saying is that neat people are good for repetitive, uncreative work?

    5. Re:This is nonsense. by SharpFang · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Go to a big, neat, shiny computer shop. A sexy blonde welcomes you and asks how she can help you. You'll get some common hardware for excessive price, you'll get dismissed ordering something more fancy and unusual, you will hear meaningless marketspeak as answers to your technical questions. The computer breaks, and you find you failed to fulfill some formality and your warranty is invalid.

      When you enter a computer shop and see computer cases stacked to the roof, overhanging you, endangering you with collapsing and burying you in computer parts, when every piece of space on the shelves is covered in used computer parts, when you find your path through the mess to a tiny counter with an old, bearded guy huddled between a pile of harddrives and another pile of monitors, you ask a specific question: electronics for ST318404LC, the special 56pin SCSI edition. In three minutes he produces one exactly as requested, asks a very moderate price and you chat about computers for another five minutes. If it doesn't work, he just replaces it without questions. "Oh, and a Pentium II 400Mhz, no fan, big radiator, a side attachment slot please. I want a second one for my old dual-CPU motherboard, for a home server" - a moment of browsing in a pile of PIIs and PIIIs, and he produces three. "At least one should work. Just return the other two after you find one that's working", he charges you some puny cash for one and you DO return the other two, just because he's so nice. And all three work.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    6. Re:This is nonsense. by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree. The real issue is not the level of neatness you see, but the way an individual handles the organizational process. For example, my office at home is rather messy (at least by a neat person's standards). But it doesn't get in my way unless one of two things happen. A.) Another person starts working with my things, putting things in different places than I had them originally. Or B.) I'm not paying attention when I put things down.

      As others posted here, neatness and organization starts making sense when multiple people have to share the resources. It's just not realistic to expect 2 different people to have identical ideas about where on a desk or on the floor is best to toss something, or which drawer the staples or a pen should best be placed in. You have to start labeling things and agreeing on rules for locations of items.

      Otherwise, rather "messy" or "neat", whatever naturally works best for you is the most sensible thing to do. If I'm wasting "twice as much time as I should be" searching for a tool buried under some papers - that's not automatic proof that I need to file all those papers away neatly in folders, and keep all tools hung up on pegs or in specific drawers. It just means I have to break a bad habit of absent-mindedly sitting the tool down while on the phone or reading something, so I don't wonder what I did with it afterwards.

    7. Re:This is nonsense. by Tim+Browse · · Score: 2, Funny

      Again, I submit an example from personal experience

      Say it with me: "The plural of anecdote is not data."

    8. Re:This is nonsense. by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1
      Troll much?

      letting some other dickhead take 3 hrs to replace your battery.

      I hate to break it to you, but in Real Life(TM) it's not always so easy to replace a battery yourself. Especially when you need it done NOW (battery failure), the wife thinks you're too absent minded to do the job without hurting yourself (probably true), and the only place open on Sunday requires that they do the replacement themselves. Such is the way of life.

      You don't win an argument by fucking lying and citing exceptions as examples.

      Who pissed in your corn flakes? I have not lied in the slightest. I am relating an experience that happened to me about a month ago when my van's battery gave up the ghost due to the cold weather. (It was the original part, and the van had been used in warmer climates before we acquired it.)

      I spoke with a few coworkers and friends about it later, and it would seem that they had similar issues with the corporate chains. Especially the big service centers like Walmart and Sears. Yes, they're neat and tidy. But don't think for a minute that their average service level is anything above "paltry".

      Of course, the most amusing issue was when I took an old Caddy into a GM service center for what appeared to be engine flooding problems. They looked at it with their fancy equipment and computers, decided that they couldn't help me, and then referred me to a local mechanic who kept a far less attractive shop. Same thing happened when I needed an engine rebuilt. I had to find a mechanic out in podunk-nowhere to get it done, but he did do a spectacular job with it.
    9. Re:This is nonsense. by Wicked+Zen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I find that going to these messier mechanics, computer shops, and what-have-you also keeps me more productive. Getting an oil change at a BrakeMax requires that I bring reading material and a snack, even with an appointment. I can call Bill's (filthy) Garage and drop by later this afternoon and get it done in fifteen minutes, filters changed and all. Similar experience applies to barbershops, computer/electronics shops, and the like. And yes, most people would regard my home workspace as a deplorable mess.

    10. Re:This is nonsense. by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      And in my experience, a slob is simply someone who has a system of organisation that is unconventional. The system can be a bit iffy, and will probably be completely incompatible with everyone else, but they do mostly work.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    11. Re:This is nonsense. by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1

      The best mechanic I've ever known had an office piled high with paper and four-year-old calendars hanging on the wall. He could rebuild an engine in under a day.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    12. Re:This is nonsense. by AeroIllini · · Score: 1

      Some of the best mechanics I've seen have spare parts, dismantled vehicles, and toolboxes seemingly strewn about in a haphazard fashion. Yet they can diagnose and repair an issue inside 15 minutes. They even know how to bring a past-its-prime vehicle back from the dead. That may be true, but it doesn't scale up.

      Mechanics like the ones you talk about are very smart, and likely have a lot of know-how about the vehicles they work on, having worked on cars for most of their lives. Diagnosing a problem has nothing to do with messiness; it's a purely mental task. Additionally, these guys are working on tasks that one person can easily do; it's doesn't require a team of people to repair a car.

      Now scale up that mentality to something bigger... like manufacturing airplanes. I'm an engineer for Boeing Commercial Airplanes, and let me tell you, the romanticized notion of a single engineer or mechanic being able to diagnose problems off the top of their heads in the middle of a messy manufacturing shop is simply not feasible. The vehicle is simply too complicated, with too many parts and too many engineering drawings for that to be possible. Our factory as a result is spotlessly clean. Parts are tagged, sorted, stored, and maintained by computerized inventory systems; tools are checked in and out of the tool sheds for use by the mechanics; the floor is spotless and movement of parts within the factory is strictly controlled. Drawings, schematics, and installation job instructions are maintained in the computer drawing system. There is no haphazard organization of anything, and as a result, we pump a new passenger 777 out the door every three days. If I need to diagnose a problem with the engineering, I can't pull that information off the top of my head like the mechanic down the street; there's simply too much information. I have to dig through the drawing tree from higher assemblies on down to individual nuts and bolts, and having all that very well organized makes it very easy. I'm sure the same is true in any large manufacturing/engineering business, be it airplanes or cars or motherboards.

      I think the simple answer to this is that "messy" is in the eye of the beholder. For the (productive) person creating the mess, it's not a mess. Everything makes sense to them. Only an outside observer, who didn't understand the messy person's system, would consider it a mess.

      Unfortunately, since no two people create "productive messes" in quite the same way, this type of system only works for a single person. As soon as a team is involved, the efficiency drops dramatically as each person has to decipher another person's messy system to find anything, and in those situations, it is always more efficient to have a neat, organized, global method of organization. For the single mechanic rebuilding an engine, messy works. For the mechanics assembling the car on the line, messy doesn't work.

      Right tool for the job, and all that.
      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    13. Re:This is nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You don't win an argument by fucking lying and citing exceptions as examples"

      Funny, that's what OP did. Why didn't you jump up his ass about it?

      "Stupid fucking prick"

      Thanks, most AC's don't sign their posts.

    14. Re:This is nonsense. by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the simple answer to this is that "messy" is in the eye of the beholder. For the (productive) person creating the mess, it's not a mess. Everything makes sense to them. Only an outside observer, who didn't understand the messy person's system, would consider it a mess.

      I agree whole heartedly. Though I would like to make one point: While the Boeing repair shops may be kept spotless and clean, the amount of activity going on does create a similar impression of a "mess" to an outside observer. The variety of tool carts, diagnostic machines, loose diagrams, and people flowing every which way belies the true order sitting in the middle of the chaos.

      It's effectively the same as the mechanic down the street. The primary difference is that the mechanic down the street uses his own mind as his organizational system, while the larger operations of Boeing require that organizational information be kept in easily accessible files external to any one person. In both cases, the most effective solution has been chosen for the work being done. :-)
    15. Re:This is nonsense. by eth1 · · Score: 1

      I don't think your mechanic and factory examples are good ones for this situation. As someone else pointed out, messiness helping productivity only works when there's one person involved with the mess. In a factory, too many people have to collaborate in that space to allow a mess.

      I do know that when I properly file something in my office at home, I can spend 10 minutes locating the folder and file drawer, whereas I seem to have an uncanny ability to know exactly which pile of paper something is in, and how far down it will be. (and even "I put it in that stack over there, but two months ago I moved that stack over here so it should be here now") I think it really comes down to how the individual thinks. I have a very good sense of space and time, so plucking a paper out of a stack is easy for me, but totally bewilders my mother, who needs have everything organized. (which caused some problems when she would come in and "organize" my room for me back in the day...)

    16. Re:This is nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are confusing the points. Slob as defined by this article is not being compared to knowledge and skill level, only productivity. In theory, being more knowledgable about the work you are doing would make you more productive and being more productive is may or may not be related to being a neat freak or a slob but being a slob or a neat freak does not relate to knowledge or experience.

      Knowledge and experience may = change in productivity
      Slob or neat freak may = change in productivity
      Knowledge and experience does not = slob or neat freak

      really short version: Your knowledge or experience in a certain field has no relationship to you being a slob or a neat freak. The act of being a slob or neat is a completely different job. Even if your job is to file papers for a living, you can do that and be perfect and well organized and follow and deveolp structures for the organization but when you get back to your own desk, it may be a disaster. The contents of your desk more often then not contains the tools and information used to do your job, it is not the actual job itself.

    17. Re:This is nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People don't like to have clean desks, as they believe a full looking desk makes them look busy.

      I leave work at the end of the day, and my desk is totally empty. I am secure in the knowledge that this is because I am totally organized. I therefore never can't find an email, loose a document or remember some figures as they are processed and filed.

      The messiest guy in my team is the least focused on priorities. The article is nonsense frankly.

    18. Re:This is nonsense. by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

      Some of the best mechanics I've seen You haven't seen nearly as many as I have. The majority of the best ones are neat and tidy.
      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    19. Re:This is nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You haven't seen nearly as many as I have.

      And how do you know that?

  20. I can certainly believe this by revlayle · · Score: 1

    While i want my house CLEAN - it is about as organized as any insane emu on acid would have anything organized. i mean i will clean house, but if i find a stack of papers or books or CDs, the just go into a stack. also, i don't hold on to a lot of things, i give away and throw away a lot of crap i don't use or need. that being said, clutter doesn't bother me that much. filth, on the other hand, bothers me.

  21. I am probably on the "slob" side of things.. by aicrules · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But I can't count the number of times that either being more of a neatnik about something has saved me a huge headache or if I had been more organized how much of a headache I could have avoided.

    Yes, if everything goes well then NOT taking the time to follow proper procedures will save you loads of time. However, proper procedures are there because when things go wrong (and they always do) you save more than just time. While the study may try to account for the time saved by being neat as not overcoming the time lost, a straight time-to-time comparison just doesn't cut it. For example, on Project A the Project Manager ensures that everyone follows a strict quality assurance plan. On Project B they let everyone handle their own quality and just trust that it is happening. Project A takes two weeks longer to deliver than originally anticipated because of some random occurence. Project B was affected by the same random occurence but launched early because they didn't go through a quality assurance process. Client suddenly realizes that Project B only half works and fumes but there's time to fix it. Project B then launches on-time (instead of early) after fixes. Even assuming Project B doesn't require additional fixes, Project A is better off because the client received a quality product the first time.

    And furthermore, saying neat squashes creativity is the true slobs excuse for not trying. If your creative process is so fragile that it requires things to be cluttered all over the place, you're creative value is NILL.

    Anyway, I doubt there will be too many people here who agree with this study, though there can certainly be cases where neatness is taken too far.

    1. Re:I am probably on the "slob" side of things.. by AdonaiElohim · · Score: 1

      And furthermore, saying neat squashes creativity is the true slobs excuse for not trying. If your creative process is so fragile that it requires things to be cluttered all over the place, you're creative value is NILL.

      dude you meant
      slob's

      your

      and NIL.

      your desk might be neat but unless you're a non-native speaker, your communication skills are pathetic. I'm an utter slob but I've risen to the top because I can use the English language correctly. Interesting, huh?

    2. Re:I am probably on the "slob" side of things.. by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Well, you've proven the opposite of the article. I could have taken the time to be organized and proofed my own thoughts as they rolled off onto the keyboard, but I didn't deem them an important use of my time. As a result, my productivity in putting forth my views took a severe hit because I made one stupid grammatical mistake, a spelling mistake, and one HUGELY stupid grammar mistake that I have no excuse making considering my own stance on that (you're versus your).

      I would reject the idea that due to your potential correct use of English that you have risen to the top. Please explain what "the top" is and cite specific examples where there is a causal relationship between your use of correct English and your rise towards this "top."
      Your first sentence was not punctuated or capitalized correctly. Your use of the word "pathetic" to describe my communication skills was an aggrandizement based on the information you have. Perhaps just "Your communication skills when utilizing the English language in written form could use some work."

  22. fat slobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if this includes fat slobs?

  23. As a pair of wise Guinness drinkers once said... by blindd0t · · Score: 1

    "Brilliant!"

  24. It's not a cluttered mess. by Canthros · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's just an efficient hashing algorithm.

    --
    Canthros
    1. Re:It's not a cluttered mess. by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      Hashing? Don't you mean caching?

      Hmm, now that I think about it, a hashing approach to desk maintenance might be an excellent solution after all! Imagine if all papers, disks, notes, and food found on an average geeks' desk could be represented by single 32-char hex string!

  25. Yay! by dkf · · Score: 1

    I must've maxed out my productivity then...

    --
    "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  26. The pile of papers on top of the... by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1

    "But, boss, you really have to admit that MY desk is much more messier than everyone else in this company! I demand more money! See here? We are talking about a freaking 3 DAYS OLD PIZZA, buried under papers and backup tapes for chrissake!!" That seems to be a sound strategy.... Just be careful not to lift up the pile of papers and the shitload of folders you hid the Counter-Strike box under!
    --
    Only to idiots, are orders laws.
    -- Henning von Tresckow
  27. This goes along with a sign I used to have by Mycroft_514 · · Score: 1

    If a messy desk is the sign of a messy mind, what is the empty desk a sign of?

    Messy desk owners unite!

  28. I admint... by gfxguy · · Score: 1

    I'm a neatnik at heart, but a slob in practice.

    --
    Stupid sexy Flanders.
  29. 3D spacial awareness and messiness by greg_barton · · Score: 1

    I find that being a slob helps exercise my 3d spacial awareness skills. No kidding. I know where things are in my piles 'o' crap and can usually retrieve them instantly by plunging a hand in and grabbing them. It's an O(1) retrieval. Of course, when I forget it becomes O(n^2), but we don't discuss such things in polite company. :)

  30. Cleaning can be costly by Sniper98G · · Score: 2, Insightful

    About 3 months ago our boss tagged us to get our office and network lab spotless and to throw out all the "junk we don't need." So far I have found that in our need to be really clean we threw away at least $5000 worth of stuff that was needed for future projects. Has anyone eles had problems like this.

    1. Re:Cleaning can be costly by InsaneProcessor · · Score: 4, Funny

      No. In our cleanup, we actually found $12000 worth of stuff that we needed for our current project and a missing employee.

      --

      Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    2. Re:Cleaning can be costly by jonoid · · Score: 1

      That's nothing. While working for the Alaska Department of Revenue this summer my boss told me to do some computer house cleaning to free up some space on our servers. A couple of wiped hard drives later, I ended up losing $38 billion dollars worth of data!

    3. Re:Cleaning can be costly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You employ boy scouts?

      I'm sure this is your employee, only a nerd would have a search dog named "Gandalf". And your employee looks very nerdly, as well!

      Keep up the good, geeky work!

      -mcgrew

    4. Re:Cleaning can be costly by Baerinin · · Score: 1

      At the last company I worked for, every so often they would decide that the storage area was too full, so they would get rid of a bunch of spare shelving. Inevitably, they would get rid of the good shelves, and keep the rusted, bent ones, and the next time we needed more shelving for something, they would have to order more. This didn't really come as a surprise though, because this is the same company that would replace ceiling tiles due to water damage, but not fix the holes in the roof, or buy new stalls for the restroom, but not fix the leaky, frequently overflowing toilets.

      --
      Genius can write on the back of old envelopes but mere talent requires the finest stationary available. -D. Parker
  31. NAPO? by GBC · · Score: 2, Funny
    Who knew there was a National Association of Professional Organizers ("The Organizing Authority® Since 1985")? [www.napo.net]

    Don't bother to RTFA. That was the only interesting thing in what is an incredibly lame piece of writing (presumably with a worse book to come).

    So, now that I have saved you some time, clean your desk!

  32. Why is it... by dharbee · · Score: 1

    Why does it seem like so many neat-freaks are responding with their reasons why neatness is better as a rule, and why this article is bunk, but the slobbos tend to be responding with "clutter works for me because..." with the focus being on how they as individuals benefit? Why do the neat freaks seem to feel the need to impose their idea of "order" on everyone?

    1. Re:Why is it... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      For the same reason they feel the need to impose their idea of "order" on their desk. Because something is disordered.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:Why is it... by ErikZ · · Score: 1


      Chaos is the default state. Order requires work and imposing your will onto the chaos.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    3. Re:Why is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Neat freaks are that way because they find the mess to be disconcerting. They don't do it because it's useful, although they certainly claim that and probably get it as a side benefit, they do it because they just can't stand the mess. They would look at their messy desk and feel pained at its state, and want to remedy it.

      The trouble is that it's not just theirs, any mess causes this. So when they walk by your messy desk which works just fine for you, they still feel bad about it. But because their feeling is not rational, they have to make up a reason (this is probably subconscious in most) to get you to clean it, such as telling you that organizing will help your productivity or whatever.

    4. Re:Why is it... by t0rkm3 · · Score: 1

      Neatness is a coping mechanism. Like most people who build some sort of highly structured psychological edifice to cope with a perceived threat, they can't empathize with someone who does not require the same level of response.

      captcha: speedy

    5. Re:Why is it... by kbielefe · · Score: 1

      Allow me to respond as a reformed slobbo. I used to think that my clutter "worked for me" until I was forced by a corporate security policy to have the top of my desk clean whenever I was away from it. What I found was the number of things I needed quick access to for my daily work was a lot fewer than I had thought — on the order of two to five items. I also found that I feel calmer and with a neater desk, and that it's easier to keep my desk clean of dust (which I'm allergic to). It's also easier to focus on a task, because I don't accidentally glance at some other piece of unfinished business while I'm working.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    6. Re:Why is it... by Heian-794 · · Score: 1

      I really agree with this and the GP.

      The battle between the disorganized and the neat-freaks is an unfair one because while the disorganized messy folk are content to leave the other side alone and let them do whatever works for them, the neat-freak side has an almost deep emotional hatred for chaos, and its members insist on imposing their will on their messy counterparts.

      My wife, who's very emotional, and I, a rationalist, are opposite numbers in this situation, and she always berates me for my "organized chaos" and how "illogical" it is. I've in fact found that logical thinkers are no more likely to be neat freaks.

      The emotional loathing that neat freaks have for us disorderly types can be fun to watch if we can be laid back about it. I recently had forgotten to mail a letter to my university, and called my wife from work to ask her to stick it in the mailbox.

      "It's in that disgusting pile of papers near the computer!? I'm not going near that! It's a mess!"

      "It's not a mess; I know where everything is."

      "Oh, really? Then what's in it?"

      "Well, on the top is a liguistics book I was reading, then some photocopied homework papers. Then a map of Nara folded over...."

      (Her anger is building here.)

      "Under that I think I've got a big envelope with more photocopies in it. Below that is a magazine, and between the pages is the envelope I need you to send."

      (I can feel her anger seething through the phone.)

      "The envelope's there, isn't it?"

      "... ... ... ...yes."

      "You would explode with anger if I told you that the envelope was between pages 36 and 37 of the magazine, wouldn't you?"

      "... ... I would."

      "Good, then I won't tell you that. Just be a pal and put the envelope in the postbox, could you?"

      Had to tiptoe into the house that night, I did.

    7. Re:Why is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chaos is the default state. Order requires work and imposing your will onto the chaos.
      Supplement: Therefore, if you are a nudist and enjoy running in hallways with scissors, be sure not to trip.
  33. i agree, but only to a certain point by freg · · Score: 1

    As in everything balance is key. You don't want to end up like these guys

  34. Neatness vs Creativity by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Neatness is antithesis of creativity. While Clutter yields (at times) unexpected serendipitous convergence of seemingly un-related items.

    My mother was a neat freak. A place for everything, and everything in its place. She could never understand how I knew where everything was in my piles of messes. Nor could she understand how I saw patterns in the seemingly random piles of stuff.

    The time it finally hit me, was when I was looking for one thing or another (I don't remember the specifics, this was 25-30 years ago), I saw two things together, which suddenly gave me a brilliant idea of combination.

    Now, if everything was in its place ...ect ... there would be no way I could have seen the new pattern. It would have been impossible. But because I saw the two things together, and saw something I never realized before, I was able to create some new idea.

    Its like that movie Working Girl where the Melanie Griffith's charactor describes putting two un-related items together to solve a problem. In that case it was a wedding and someone wanting to get into TV Station Ownership.

    Creativity often requires the serendipity of a confluence of unrelated items.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    1. Re:Neatness vs Creativity by kbielefe · · Score: 1

      The time it finally hit me, was when I was looking for one thing or another (I don't remember the specifics, this was 25-30 years ago), I saw two things together, which suddenly gave me a brilliant idea of combination.

      So, clutter is worth it because once in 30 years you might get a creative idea that you don't remember now and may have come up with in a tidy environment too?

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    2. Re:Neatness vs Creativity by khallow · · Score: 1

      Pretty much. That and it's a lot less work to clean up a cluttered desk than it is to clean up a neat desk.

    3. Re:Neatness vs Creativity by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      No.

      What I'm saying is that the time I first REALIZED what the clutter actually did. It happens all the time, I was recounting the time I first Realized it, hence the phrase "The time if finally hit me".

      I get revelations all the time based on the serendipity of random convergence. And the other thing I presented was not the potential for an idea, but the opportunity increases with clutter. Could a person potentially come up with similar and creative ideas? Sure. The question isn't could, it is a matter of likelyhood of that random thought.

      BTW, I would love to play poker with you, because you don't seem to understand the difference betwen drawing dead to a single card, and holding the nuts. Is it possible you might hit it? Sure, but is it likely? No.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:Neatness vs Creativity by noidentity · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, creativity also requires a lack of overwhelming complexity, which a messy work environment fosters. I have to regularly put things back in their place or I can't separate the important things from the mess. This applies to physical and virtual spaces.

    5. Re:Neatness vs Creativity by hobbesx · · Score: 1

      The time it finally hit me, was when I was looking for one thing or another (I don't remember the specifics, this was 25-30 years ago), I saw two things together, which suddenly gave me a brilliant idea of combination.

      Now, if everything was in its place ...


      You might be able to find records of your brilliant idea? ;)

      Apologies for the lame attempt at an obvious joke- I did read your other replies, and I think that you may have overlooked something less obvious. Have you considered that your mother saw patterns that were not immediately obvious to you?

      Really, this whole argument is silly, since everyone has their own concepts of what constitutes tidy vs. sloppy and messy vs. organized.

      --
      This rating is Unfair ( ) ( ) Fair (*) Funny
      Sigh... If only. Modding would be so much more fun.
    6. Re:Neatness vs Creativity by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      [quote]Have you considered that your mother saw patterns that were not immediately obvious to you?[/quote]

      I'm not sure she has the time to. She is too busy looking for the item that isn't where it is supposed to be, because she used it, set it down and now can't find it, because it isn't where it is supposed to be.

      Which is almost always followed up by "How'd that get there"

      It happens more often than not.

      And while you may be right, there is hardly a "randomness" that arises from everything in its place. The thing that order does create is that one can spot when something changes more easily. Something that having a less tidy approach is actually harder to see.

      I'm again reminded of a movie, this time Pirates of the Caribbean, the scene when Will Turner comes back to the shop and notices everything in its place, except one item ... "not where I left you"

      I'm obviously not making value judgments here, because there is obviously advantages and disadvantages to both approaches.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  35. Messy me, tidy wife by pubjames · · Score: 4, Funny

    I bet I'm not the only one with a significant other that drives them nuts by tidying up all the time. A typical conversation might go something like this:

    Me [settling down to watch a movie]: Where is the HMDI lead?

    Her Wherever you last left it.

    Me I left it on the floor behind the TV.

    Her Well I haven't touched it.

    Me You must have, it can't have moved itself.

    Her I definately haven't moved it. You're always loosing things.

    Me Do you even know what it is?

    Her What is it?

    Me It's a black cable. It was on the floor behind the TV.

    Her Oh, I might have put it in one of the boxes in the shed.

    Me [angry] So now I've got to put my shoes on and go out into the cold to look through all the boxes in the shed!

    Her Don't blame me! You're the untidy one that is always loosing things...

    1. Re:Messy me, tidy wife by JustNilt · · Score: 1

      Hey! You've got a hidden microphone in my house! I had almost this exact conversation recently with my own wife. Talk about deja vu.

      --
      You know the thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get it or not.
    2. Re:Messy me, tidy wife by shdowhawk · · Score: 1
      ... Continuation to the conversation from me:

      Me I'm not the one who is untidy, you are. Have you seen the mess of boxes and crap you left on the floor in the shed?!

      The philosophical question to ask here is... "If your spouse hides crap in boxes ... Does it really make things 'tidy'?"

    3. Re:Messy me, tidy wife by korbin_dallas · · Score: 1

      At my house, it would have ended up in the clothes dryer.
      Somehow my 'lost' stuff ends up getting washed and dried.

      Thats how I know that a CF CAN survive heat and moisture!
      Other stuff, not so lucky. :^)

      --
      They Live, We Sleep
    4. Re:Messy me, tidy wife by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes the neat freak messy person is a dangerous combination. I was once putting together a bureau, you know one of those IKEA things with little pieces and instructions written in some weird translation of english. In the midst of the project I got up and went to the bathroom. When I returned I noticed that the weird little instructions were no where to be found. I was almost 100 percent sure that I had left them on the table next to the desk. After doing a search in both likely and unlikely places I asked my wife (the neat nick) if she had seen the instructions. The answer was no. I told her that I had been working on the desk and that they had mysteriously disappeared. Her respnose was uh...did you check the recylcing bin? Yes, she saw the clutter and the stray paper next to the clutter and was compelled to recycle it.

      It's a wonder we're still married. The one inviolate rule is that she doesn't get anywhere near my work desk. That would be deadly.

  36. As I was always told... by Unique2 · · Score: 1

    An empty desk is an empty mind.

    --
    No trees were harmed in the posting of this message. However, a great number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
  37. It's not a pile! by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

    It may look like a bunch of piles of paper, but it's actually a distributed, chronologically ordered, stack-based filing system. Statistically, the most recently viewed/changed file will need to be accessed the most frequently in the short term, so those files are kept near the top of the file stack for quicker access.

    Files further down on the stack are, of course, compressed.
    =Smidge=

  38. Two kinds of Messy by DCheesi · · Score: 1

    There are two kinds of "Messy": those who know where everything is, and those who don't.

    For some people, the "mess" is actually a highly efficient personal organizing system. These people have huge stacks of papers in seemingly random locations, but they know exactly where a particular document is within those stacks and piles. If someone were to go in and "organize" their office, they would be completely lost and their productivity would suffer (as described in the article).

    Then there are other people (like me) who are just plain messy :) Once I put a piece of paper down, I don't have a clue where where I left it. When I do have retrieve something, I have to search through the stack(s). OTOH, in my job I find that I rarely have to do that, especially since most important documents are stored electronically anyway. Of course the electronic documents aren't organized that much better, but search tools help me find things quickly enough, given a rough starting point.

  39. Chicken or Egg by tdos20 · · Score: 0

    If I'm really busy (being productive) I don't have time to tidy my desk, whereas the last thing on my to do list (after reading all of slashdot) is to tidy my desk, so it stays tidy utill I have more work to clutter it with.

  40. Productivity Shroductivity by demon+driver · · Score: 0, Troll

    So people still let their personal worthiness be judged on their job productivity. While the world's employment figures of the last three decades don't show anything but the fact that productivity is the problem, not the solution. But no, everyone still seems to even derive some kind of part self-deluding, part self-destructive pride out of their being even more and more effectively exploited - whether with a cluttered or a most tidy desk...

    Cheers,
    d. d.

  41. Prediction by Geoff · · Score: 1

    I have a feeling that this is going to find itself posted in a whole lot of offices and cubicles......

    --

    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso

  42. A computer makes it easy to be disorganized by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am 54 years old and I was disorganized with my paper files long before buying my first computer in 1985. A computer makes it easy to be disorganized, whenever you need something do a search and find it. Search not only by filename you could use grep to search file contents, etc. Try do this with ten thousand paper files!
    Why bother organizing your electronic files making directories within directories, when you can search for wathever you want?
    IMPORTANT. NEVER save your files in a computer, ALWAYS use an external drive. At home and work I use about 12 different computers and it would be a nightmare if I left a few files in each of them. Computers are for operating systems and applications, not personal files. I actually dont have room for personal files, I usually have 4 to 6 operating systems per computer ( say two versions of windows - for compatibility, a linux 32bit and a linux 64 bit and the occasional Solaris for Intel or Free BSD). The new Intel Macs are a big problem, if you want Windows you cannot install more than 3 operating systems per hard disk (say MacOSX, a linux and Windows). I bought a Macbook and in order to be able to install 5 operating systems I had to replace the internal DVD drive by a second hard disk. I bouth a cheap USB/Firewire Box for slim optical laptop drives ($35 from Meritline.com) and put the optical drive in - I can boot from it.

  43. Another study that tells us what we already know.. by Speed+Pour · · Score: 1

    ...that moderation and doing things that come naturally instead of forcing it will always be better choices.

    Just like all things, being moderately clean but not overdoing it will prove the best method. There's nothing wrong with having a bit of clutter, but everybody can be certain that a desk with several stacks (or simply a huge pile) of paper, folders, candy bar wrappers, CD's, pictures of family, nude magazines, post-it notes, immigrants (how did this one get in there?), and Pens where the girls clothes come off if you turn them upside down...well, I think the point is made...that's unlikely to be your most effective or efficient people.

    Obviously, the other extreme is somebody who only has 3-5 objects on their desk, every item is categorically stored away in a folder/box with labels and an indexing system that could rival the Library of Congress. These people won't even keep an item out of it's place even if they know they aren't done using it.

    Clearly, a middle ground is where the best people reside.

    --
    - Nobody would know what RTFA meant if it didn't need to be said all the time
  44. True, but... by loafing_oaf · · Score: 1

    This may be true, but think about most of your bosses making the good money. They're not messy. The inner ranks of business are about image, not necessarily results. Think Carly Fiorina, or any other executive.

    --
    Always someone has power over you. The thing to consider is this: Is the power good, or bad?
  45. i am neither one by FudRucker · · Score: 1

    i am not a neat-freak, a cluttered desk with papers & CDroms does not bother me = i don't nitpick the appearance of my desk, on the other hand i am not a slob, i don't leave pizza crust & half eaten donuts laying around to attract bugs, somewhere in between those two extremes is my happy medium...

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  46. garbage by deuterium · · Score: 1

    I'm easily the messiest person in my office, and as others have elaborated, I know generally where everything I need is located. There seem to be two aspects to clutter or messes: the items themselves, and the physical location of the items. Without any items, there is no mess, and therein lies my key to being messy, yet productive... I throw away absolutely everything that isn't important or replaceable. This still leaves some items strewn across my desk, but not a ton of stuff, so it doesn't look like I'm a disordered hoarder. Instead of grooming my items by physical location, I spend that time culling detritis, so that there are fewer false positives to rummage though when looking for an item.

  47. I hate "me too" posts but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YES! Trackball is the ULTIMATE in desk messers. We all laugh at you suckers still moving your hands around the desk -- we've got crap piled there!

  48. The most telling comment... by ruben.gutierrez · · Score: 1

    ...It's a mess I made, and I know where everything is. That's a rather self-centered view of productivity. One of the most important aspects of information is sharing. What happens if someone who owns a mess suddenly disappears? It's left to others to sort through the mess and reorganize it. Time lost now, minimizing time lost later, is much easier to deal with because you can account for it from the start. Once something unexpected occurs, it's much more difficult to manage the lost time.
  49. Berzelius oppinion: Only lazy people are organized by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The famous Swedish chemist and medical doctor Berzelius weas visiting Davy's lab. One of Dr. Berzelius companyons said "Look Dr. Berzelius how messsy and disorganized this lab is". Berzelius answered: "Only lazy chemists have neat and clean labs"

  50. Now where are my mod points... by Spaceman40 · · Score: 1

    Truth, all the way. Although I have found the warehouse model (see Fry's) to work well for me, too.

    --
    I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
  51. That's why by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

    I always show up at pro-environment protests with a big sign that reads "POLLUTION CREATES JOBS"

  52. Power Throttling by toddhisattva · · Score: 1

    I am no slob. (Though I'm culturally half-Slav ;-)

    It is a matter of power throttling.

    I try to keep my code very neat and clean. Because it is easier to work with that way and the modern tools help keep it that way.

    Similarly, when I work on equipment or car, I'm lining up the screws in the order I remove them, there's nothing near the soldering iron holder, the iron's cord is routed where it won't get stepped on or pulled, and so on.

    I like to think I'm exceptionally neat when it counts.

    And my "clutter" is actually fairly organized: it *is* a stack and *I know FORTH!*

    The problem is when neat people and messy people insist on inflicting *their* workstyle on others, as if it was a universal law.

    The only person who gets to do that is the boss.

  53. There's a scientific term for this system... by canada_dry · · Score: 1

    "archaeological filing system" def'n: the deeper down in the pile you dig, the older stuff is.

    Simple. Effective.

  54. Difference between home and office organization by Pap22 · · Score: 1

    The argument that all businesses need to keep their data organized is not a valid counter-argument. Of course corporate data needs to be filed away in an organized and neat matter, and is worth spending the time/money to do so, because you need efficient access to the data to stay in business. THE DIFFERENCE is that the data gets organized such that multiple people will have access to the data. Hence, there needs to be a common logical organization to the data and that must be followed religiously.

    On the other hand, the only person who needs access to my personal papers is me. So they get dumped into piles (seemingly randomly to other people), when in fact I'm able to find them pretty quickly (financial papers are near the window under the stack of CDs, etc). As long as this system works for me, then there is no problem.

    Oh, and for the record, I'm a database administrator at work. I'm a slob at the personal level, but I know the importance of having OUR data organized efficiently and logically (normalized) such that OTHER people are able to find the information quickly themselves.

    1. Re:Difference between home and office organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed!

      I think almost any sane programmer would agree that logical, organized, structured, easy-to-read-and-understand-for-the-newbie code is better than spaghetti code. Especially since digital things are, by nature, structured. This is essential in a multi-user environment! Chaos would ensue otherwise. This means that something that is NOT ONLY YOURS should be put somewhere that most people would have a clue to look.

      "Hey Bob, where's the Langley report?"
      "It's on my desk, on the left, under the Dilbert calendar but above the compiler manual."
      "Duh, I should have known!"

      When it comes to YOUR PERSONAL WORK, well, that's a different matter. I think some people logically have a sense of structure (i.e. that's my "junk" drawer) which is useful and efficient. It is impossible to have a "place" for everything. Example: I just got an ID badge for an upcoming event. Where do I put it? Desk, suitcase, laptop bag, with my airline ticket (wherever that is). There's no "right" answer, just some answers are better than others.

  55. Most Recently Used policy by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Sounds sorta like a caching algorithm. As items are used, they are left on top. Temporal locality says that all the important items will be on top of the other items.

    But then we get a garbage collection algorithm, too. Every so often, the short-lived objects which are no longer important are removed in your tidying process.

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
    1. Re:Most Recently Used policy by Synchis · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sounds sorta like a caching algorithm. As items are used, they are left on top. Temporal locality says that all the important items will be on top of the other items.

      But then we get a garbage collection algorithm, too. Every so often, the short-lived objects which are no longer important are removed in your tidying process.
      Oh to see the world from a programmers eyes. :-D
      --
      Thomas A. Knight
      Author of The Time Weaver
    2. Re:Most Recently Used policy by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Really? That sounds too similar to be a coincidence. Perhaps early man, in ancient times, studied caching algorithms and garbage collection algorithms and, over time, learned to apply these algorithms to their environment, thereby "sorting" them.

      That's incredible, that after all these years, we've finally discovered that people think like computers!

    3. Re:Most Recently Used policy by castanaveras · · Score: 2, Funny

      And doing a Garbage Collection sweep slows down your productivity, just like in Java, but at least you're getting to control when GC happens, rather than having it happen randomly when you're at your most busy.

    4. Re:Most Recently Used policy by Gazzonyx · · Score: 1
      That's quite literally what I do! On my desk, the top tier middle is where my garbage goes, (currently an empty rockstar can - garbage was just collected), the main tier middle is the place where what I'm currently working on goes - a big mess of crap.

      The funny thing is, the bookshelf on my desk is immaculate. I have supplies to the left bookshelf, all orderly. Snacks on the top, all orderly, CD archives/spindles on the bottom, all labled and orderly. The middle is just at arms reach center, 2 4-packs of rockstar, 4 fridge mate packs of mountain dew can dispensers (2 regular, 2 code red). Above that I've got batteries ordered by size (I have wireless everything and hate to run out), ordered rows of deoderant and body spray (I sweat alot). Ear plugs, 2 stacks of smokes (usually a carton at a time, 2 stacks of 5), and a row of lighters (admittingly, ordered by color - hex value... it happened in a moment of OCD rage).

      So, I'm anal about everything that I need to continue to work... but my workspace itself (currently 3 empty ramen bowls, a flashlight open rockstar, pen or two, lighter, a random twist tie, project specs, 4-in-1 reciever remote, dry erase marker, etc) is just a mess. It's like once I get going, I want to have everything right where I know it's going to be, supply wise, but I don't care/don't have time about how clean my workspace is. Hrm... If I took this second monitor off my desk... but I digress.

      --

      If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

    5. Re:Most Recently Used policy by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      It seems like he needs a better garbage collection algorithm though since he seems to be discarding objects that are still referenced. Hmmm I wonder how hard it would be to implement a garbage collecting desk ;)

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    6. Re:Most Recently Used policy by fabs64 · · Score: 1

      Nooo.. not garbage collection! If it were garbage collection then the used items would never leave the desk and the non-used would never be accessible again :P
      I'm going to go with the "tidy_process" is very memory intensive (it wants the WHOLE desk now), as a result you (the memory manager), swap out everything on the desk to disk, but once that is done the "tidy_process" terminates, and "work_process" wakes up and starts requesting things it needs from memory again, so when "work_process" starts back up it's going to generate a whole heap of page-faults for a while and run pretty slow, but eventually all the oft-used stuff will be back in memory.
      So, from this, we can deduce that the "tidy_process" is a complete waste of time and of no benefit to the "work_process"
      I'm so glad that my Operating Systems class wasn't useless after all :D

    7. Re:Most Recently Used policy by jelle · · Score: 1

      On many desks, the garbage collection algorithm often starts with an 'on-desk coffee spill', after which the garbage to be collected is a lot easier to identify. Note: since coffee stains age, it even literally includes page aging for the cache.

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
  56. some people need order, some dont. by greenrom · · Score: 1
    Different people require different levels of organization to be productive. Unless a person spends a lot of time searching for misplaced documents, forcing them to be organized isn't going to make them more productive. Likewise, if a person needs to maintain strict order to be able to find things, then they aren't going to become more productive by being disorganized.

    I have a really good memory. I rarely take notes and I seldom need to reference old documents as I am able to pull information out of my head even if it's months or years old. As a result, spending a lot of time maintaining organization doesn't make sense for me. At the same time, I realize that some people need to keep detailed notes to remember things and need to frequently reference old documents. People like that need to be organized to be productive.

  57. How's that saying go ? by Joebert · · Score: 1

    One mans' trash can, is another mans' organizer ?

    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
  58. People who need order are called Nazis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every person should now its place in the society, now that is order! Slaves are slaves, masters are masters!

  59. File cabinets by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    File cabinets seem to be blackholes. Once something goes in, it is just a record, not work. So, current projects take up desk space.

    This is quite different from the principle "a place for everything and everything in its place." Aboard ship you need to have everything stowed for safety and the ability to find things in a hurry.

    For very big thinkers like Bucky Fuller, a dymaxion file can work, but for me at least I need a dymaxion pile.

    For people interested in managing productivity it might be a good idea to think about providing a desk per project rather than a desk per person.
    --
    Couldn't think of a solar tag for this one.

    1. Re:File cabinets by roye · · Score: 1

      For people interested in managing productivity it might be a good idea to think about providing a desk per project rather than a desk per person.
      I did this when I was in graduate school, albeit on a much smaller level. In my office at home I had a "fun" desk and a research desk. It seemed to keep my different projects and my mind straight.
    2. Re:File cabinets by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      The only thing missing is the bill paying desk. I divide by which computer is good for what.

    3. Re:File cabinets by arodland · · Score: 1

      File cabinets are tape-archive. Write Multiple, Read Probably Never.

  60. There's one problem here... by raehl · · Score: 1

    Now for the priority queue, when I'm a little messy, the important stuff floats to the top. As the mess gets higher and deeper, after a while the stuff on the bottom becomes unimportant, and can then be cleaned up (similar to garbage collection).

    The weakness here is that if something has BECOME unimportant, that means it WAS important, and you didn't do anything about it. It's fine if things that were NEVER important don't get addressed and eventually fall into garbage collection, but letting things that WERE important reach garbage collection because you missed doing something about them when they WERE important is a bad thing.

    Or put another way, the notice of foreclosure on your house may not be important if you don't do anything about it until they've foreclosed on you, but by the time your 'nifty' organizational system's garbage collection routine removes it from your work area, you've lost your house (and your work area).

    What I've learned to do is supplement my system with a To-Do list. Then even if something important starts to slide under some other things, it doesn't slide off the to-do list, and at least not doing important things is an intelligent decision resulting from more important things needing to be done than just letting something slide until there's no point in dealing with it anymore.

  61. Does it apply to things like coding conventions? by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

    Aren't a lot of coding conventions really just "neatness" applied to the programming domain?

  62. Blinky, Pinky, Inky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Blinky's desk is a heap. Ask him to find a post-it, it's right on top. Ask him to find a functional spec from six months ago, he's got to sift through everything. After he uses them he leaves them on top of the desk.

    Pinky's desk is totally neat. Ask him to find a post-it, he opens the drawer for "P", does binary search, then finds the post-it. Ask him to find a functional spec from six months ago, that's under "F", same thing. After he uses them, he puts them both away, same procedure. If he's got to refer to the spec ten times, he finds it and puts it away ten times.

    Inky's desk has a heap on top but the drawers are sorted. He can find a post-it as fast as Blinky and the spec from six months ago as fast as Pinky. When he's done he leaves the post-it on top of the desk and puts the spec back in its proper place. Though the second time he has to refer to the spec, he leaves it on his desk. Every few months he finds his heap is slow, so he puts everything that he hasn't used in the last week away in the proper drawer.

    1. Re:Blinky, Pinky, Inky by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

      Pacman's desk is completely empty - except for his trusty monitor and scanner. A shredder sits next to the trash can. He's managed to convince many of his coworkers to put information onto the web in a CMS instead of killing large numbers of trees, so he doesn't have to use the scanner or shredder as much as he used to.

      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
  63. Ha! I knew it! by pilotfactory · · Score: 1

    A clean desk is a sign of a sick mind!

    1. Re:Ha! I knew it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There have been variations of this quip in the posts here, but this one is the one I remember being told - to which my father added a qualifier (he taught HS Psychology).

      A clean desk is the sign of a sick mind... but you can only take mental health so far.

  64. This is what I learned by LinuxDon · · Score: 1

    As someone who has lived both extremes, I wish to share my experiences as a system/network admin.

    For years I have worked with a cluttered desk and big piles of documents, until the director of the company got quite upset about it.
    I then started to "organize" everything, it took me at least two weeks to do that. Then I started to use the bestpractical.com ticketing system and I numbered all documents and put them in ordners. I had everyone to e-mail their requests to the ticketing system. After about half a year I realized I spend so much time documenting and organizing that I didn't even have time to actually talk to my colleagues about things, I became a giant bureaucracy and a gigantic amount of time went into organizing.

    Then I decided to stop with the ticketing system and I went back to clutter, which made me much more productive again, but complaints about the clutter reappeared again after a while. I got so angry about it that I just took my entire pile of stuff and just threw it away (I only keep the -really- important stuff), what I have noticed is that all the lost information didn't cause any problems.

    The thing I've learned is that the best way to stay organized without spending too much time organizing is to just throw things away if it isn't an absolutely certain fact I will need it again in the near future. It appears to be the best solution between clutter and organization.

  65. And there is the crux of the issue.... by Belial6 · · Score: 1

    "I have trouble focusing when things are too much of a mess."

    And there is the crux of the issue. There are a large portion of the population that simply cannot concentrate. If you cannot remember where a hundred items are, what do you do? You put them in some kind of system that allows you to figure out where they are when you need them. This is why messy people often seem smarter. People with good memories don't NEED to be tidy. They might choose to be tidy, but it is not a requirement. The other side of that is when people who have poor memories have a messy desk. These people can never find anything. Not because their desk is messy, but because their desk is messy AND they can't remember where they put stuff. A tidy desk is a crutch. This is only a problem when you have someone who needs the crutch, and refuses to use it.

    We see this same issue with noise. Some of use can work quite well with all sorts of noise going on around out, as we do have the ability to focus on our task at hand. Others get confused and disoriented when there is noise around them. They are often heard complaining about noisy offices.

  66. Re:Been There Heard That by JrOldPhart · · Score: 1

    Way too many times.

    On the other hand the wife calls me obsessive compulsive because I believe that the mayo
    should be put back on the same shelf and in the same location it was found.

    My cube, my method. Your cube your method. But the lab should be organized by consensus or
    edict such that all can find things.

    --
    Nothing is foolproof, fools are too ingenious. - Murphy
  67. pretty obvious by nanosquid · · Score: 1

    I think that's pretty obvious: investing 1h now into organizing things you're never going to look at again is likely wasted. OTOH, if you can't do your taxes because you lost all your tax documents, need to spend many hours trying to get new copies, and pay stiff penalties, that's no good either.

    So, you really need "just enough" organization to get the things done you need to get done. That means that most paperwork can just go into a big filing box, but a few things need to be kept separate.

    However, the term "slob" has connotations of dirt and bad odors; if all your interactions are on-line, it may be efficient not to worry about that either, but if you occasionally want to meet up with people in person, some degree of cleanliness is probably a good idea.

  68. The Wife by blazer1024 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My wife is a neatnik. She always likes things in order.

    However, she is the most productive worker in her department... as long as her desk stays organized.

    If things get slightly out of order, it takes her several hours to get things back the way she wants it, and occasionally she feels that her design isn't 100% efficient, so she'll reorganize. Once she's satisfied, she switches into high speed and rarely makes mistakes.

    At home, her desk is a mess. Go figure :)

  69. physical vs virtual messiness by aethogamous · · Score: 1

    I have a theory based on very limitted observation that those people who have a very tidied physical workspace have a very disorganized virtual workspace (you know, the ones with 200 icons on their desktop), while those with disorganized physical workspaces are much better at keeping their virtual workspaces organized.

    Anyone else noticed this (or am I just off my rocker as usual)

    1. Re:physical vs virtual messiness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm messy in both environments!

      My windows desktop freaks most people out as I use my desktop as my temp directory, working docs, downloads etc. Everything i'm working on is right in front of me.

      Every once in a while, when the chaos gets too much, I have a good clean up.

      a

  70. "A cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind" by dbdweeb · · Score: 1

    Said one professor to another upon seeing his messy desk, "A cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind."

    In retort, while looking down upon his collegue's bare desktop, "Ah yes, but it's better than an empty desk."

    For me, clutter is a function of being busy and not so much a matter of disorganization. Eventually, when I have "nothing better to do" I clean up the mess. When I see someone who always has an immaculate desk I think, "Now there's a bureaucrat who doesn't have much important work to do." When I see a techy with a messy desk I think, "Now there's someone who's busy because he's doing stuff that matters." And for those whose desk I've never seen I think, "This person may be busy but mostly they're just a slob."

    Life is like a trapese act... It's a matter of maintaining balance or taking a fall.

    me

  71. Teenagers Everywhere Rejoice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parent: "Your room is a mess that has no equal in recorded history, you need to clean it up"

    Teenager: "What? You WANT me to fail my SATs?"

    Parent: "Nevermind"

  72. This is astounding by mythandros · · Score: 1

    1) No one should be surprised that people with OCD that manifests as a need to clean actually waste time by cleaning. It's the nature of the beast. Hell, it's intuitive.

    2) Leaving papers scattered, albeit in some esoteric semblance of order, around one's desk does allow one to pipeline and/or cache SOME tasks. It's still no solution whatsoever for long term data access. The less organization and tidying you do, the harder it's going to be to find old data. Archiving is a situation where you can't live WITHOUT a "neat freak".

    3) God forbid something happens and you can't come in to work unexpectedly. It won't matter if you're in traction or just have a cold; the time you save in NOT organizing your desk will be more than offset by the added time, headaches, and stress induced in the sorry SOB whose job it is to find some critical piece of information on the project that needs to be finished on time.

    1. Re:This is astounding by JrOldPhart · · Score: 1

      If I am not there to grab the info, call I'll tell you where it is or give you the answer.
      Don't try to find it your self, you'll be wasting your time and mine.

      If I am dead, pray.

      --
      Nothing is foolproof, fools are too ingenious. - Murphy
    2. Re:This is astounding by mythandros · · Score: 1

      True, calling the person who is most familiar with the organizational structure of their "filing system" is the optimal solution. Still, in a corporate environment, locating that information can be problematic. I guess that it all depends on how often you're sick. Maxing out your sick days each year? Maybe you should take some time, bite the bullet, and organize just a little. Never miss a day? Don't worry so much about organizing. It's the part where you said to pray that makes me wish I could behold your desk in all it's glory.

  73. But, but, what if- by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

    -I'm a lazy slob?

    --
    I drank what? -- Socrates
  74. A flaw in the logic by drdewm · · Score: 1

    I'm a slob, stupid and unproductive. Take that science!

  75. I cry bulls*** by shicaca · · Score: 0

    I, personally, am a neat person at work. I'm a slob at home, but that's because I don't have the time to clean. Putting everything in a specific and delineated place is not only intelligent, but stifles confusion. It may stifle creativity -- I mean, what's more creative than putting toilet paper rolls in the living room? What's more creative than finding the toilet plunger in your car just in case? My point is that this might be true for the SLIGHTLY messy, but for those that are absolute slobs, I beg to differ. There's no way that being a complete mess is more productive or better than having things placed in order. If you have to actively search for an item, that takes time. If everybody put stuff away where it was suppose to go, there'd not only be more room for extra items (organization makes room for more things), but there'd also be no need to search for things. If an item is always in the same place, it'll be a cinch to find. To sum this up, I'm going to have to say: "bulls***"

  76. I totally agree by John+Pfeiffer · · Score: 1

    At home, my space is an utter disaster. We're talking 'can barely see floor' disaster. But I know where every last damned thing in the room is. I have had someone ask me for something, and I tell them that it's in the pile on their left, in the first dozen or so papers...only to have them run screaming from the room...but it was there!

    I have had people attempt to clean the room 'for me', only for me to catch them in the act and chase them out... And it takes months for me to find everything they 'cleaned up'.

    There's two kinds of mess; total omg wretched mess, and my mess. It may look like I'm eligible for federal disaster assistance, but it's not like I've got food kicking around. It's not like there's a month-old quarter of a sub with some chips, under a pile of things on my desk, no. It's just a mess of STUFF.

    Now, in order to appease certain entities, I am indeed cleaning the apartment... But already, I feel like I did for the week or two after I built my new computer and hadn't gotten all my old stuff copied over yet... Really helpless and unable to access anything important. We shall see.

    --

    Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
  77. Neat environment and mood? by Kelbear · · Score: 1

    I keep everything organized. The stacks may not be lined up perfectly in a straight edge, but they're in definite stacks in their own trays for specific purposes and every case always finds itself in the appropriate tray for retrieval.

    However, I find that a clean environment at home promotes a more energetic mindset for me. I make no pretense that this is applicable to anyone else, I'm just curious if this sounds familiar to anyone else.

    When I'm surrounded by a mess I feel lazy and sluggish, I'd rather just let the piles accumulate and take care of them all at once...at some point "later on". When my room is neat and tidy, and I'm holding an object, it's just one object to set away to perpetuate the pleasantly clean atmosphere. So I do it. And it bleeds over into other small mundane tasks. I see small but annoying errands that I /could/ pile up, but I might as well just take care of it right now and perpetuate the clean slate.

    An example from this last week: My light burned out and I sat in the dark refuse-filled room for a day or two before replacing the bulb, lit only by the glow of my monitors and laptop. I replaced the bulb, and cleaned everything up. I'm sure you can picture the constrast in atmosphere, you might also be able to see how my mindset is also affected in part by it.

  78. Yeah because Ben Franklin by br0d · · Score: 1

    didn't accomplish anything.

  79. I should also point out that this may correlate by br0d · · Score: 1

    I should also point out that this may correlate to a tendency to procrastinate. More procrastinators make use of "pebble" tasks in order to either feel good about themselves while avoiding the more challenging "stone" tasks, or as a tactic to achieve a few of the more minor goals in order to ramp themselves up to get motivated for the bigger tasks they are avoiding.

  80. Grrrrrrr. by yusing · · Score: 1

    2012, 2012, 2012 ... 5 years off and already I *hate* the Mayan calendar.

    --

    "You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson

  81. It's only messy if it's not YOUR mess. by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

    The person describing it as messy doesn't have access to the pointers, so doesn't see the organizational scheme.

    However, a person's memory of pointers fades, and when NOBODY has access to the pointers, then it is, unequivocably, a mess. The task, then, is to organize marginally faster than your memory loss rate.

    --
    Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  82. Ja! And be a neat schwein to boot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pssst, I have a secret! You can be a slob _AND_ have a neat desk at the same time!!! Maybe it's my German inbreeding, but I have discovered an inborn knack for making even the most disorganized piles of crap look orderly by following one simple Germanic rule: ...make everything orthogonal! Whoohooooo! It takes only seconds, the piles can stack up in Kafkaesque extreme, but no matter how big they get, you look like you've got it together. Finely tuned German aesthetic sensibilities and cognitive disarray can live in harmony!

    1. Re:Ja! And be a neat schwein to boot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      German inbreeding? Is that why people from Arkansas and Tennessee have last names like Kinsmann and Sibeshard?

    2. Re:Ja! And be a neat schwein to boot! by putaro · · Score: 1

      Our housekeeper likes to do that. All of the stuff in neat piles. Unfortunately there's no organization to the piles and she inserts things into the piles so you can't just look at the top for things that have recently disappeared.

    3. Re:Ja! And be a neat schwein to boot! by BillyBlaze · · Score: 1

      Stackenblocken!

  83. Only boring people live in clean houses by radishthegreat · · Score: 1

    And "people who can afford a cleaning service" but that's too long to embroider on a sampler. The rest of us have more interesting things to do.

  84. MOD PARENT UP! by thegameiam · · Score: 1

    my wife and I have different tolerances of clutter and approaches to tidying: I don't mind a pile of random (to be filed) things, or some such, being left out when company's coming over. She would much rather that the surfaces are empty/cleared, and doesn't mind stuffing drawers to the brim with wholly unrelated things.

    In short: I would rather have something left lying out rather than put away in the wrong place; she would rather put something away in the wrong place than leave it lying out...

    --
    Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Having had to go through every "stuff" box in the house several times looking for things before, I now leave everything out of the boxes I have gone through and explain that hiding things in boxes is *not* tidying.

      Though I actually don't do that anymore because my wife managed to break herself of the habit (though it could have gone badly so YMMV). However, some compromise did help. Setting up a couple of "junk drops" where my wife can deposit *my* stuff I have left out means she can get stuff straight in a hurry if she needs to. Trying to make sure that important stuff isn't left out at all makes things easier too (the junk drops help there too). Every now and then when I'm heading in the right direction, I'll grab some stuff from the junk drops and put it away where it's supposed to go.

      Rich

    2. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by thegameiam · · Score: 1

      sensible suggestions, all.

      --
      Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
  85. There's some truth here by Slightly+Askew · · Score: 1

    As someone who suffers from OCD and TTM (although some say they are one and the same affliction) as well as a moderate case of germophobia, I can attest to this. Usually the uber-organized among us do have some sort of mental health issues, and making sure our Coke can is equidistant to the back and side of our desks is our way of coping.

    However, productivity and quality are two different things. I work with someone who is the antithesis of neat and orderly. Spilled food on his clothes, papers strewn every which way, a whiteboard with approximately 3.4 cm^2 of unused space, etc. We are both technical equals, but he does seem to turn out more work than I do. However, my code is easy to read and well commented, and my system proposals are well-organized things of beauty. His code will occasionally contain a line break, and his customer communications are a hodge-podge of spelling and grammar mistakes, with some questionable colloquialisms thrown in for good measure. Guess who the customer prefers to work with, even if it tacks on an extra week or three to the end of the project?

    --
    Public use of any portable music system is a virtually guaranteed indicator of sociopathic tendencies. -- Zoso
    1. Re:There's some truth here by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Your coworker? If he's finishing more work, he must be starting more work...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  86. True if you look where I work at. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work with many PhD level people here and I agree with this assessment. I see piles of papers stacked several feet high and their desk... er work area (a desk doesn't have enough surface area) there is barely any place to put a laptop down. Most of them are so concentrated on work they don't have time to clean up the piles of papers and other stuff, unless they have look for something.

  87. Slobiness by AliasTheRoot · · Score: 1

    My desk is messy, but it is a cache of recently used and needed stuff. I always work like that, I print a lot of shit off and sit on the Loo or outside having a smoke with the papers and a pencil. Every now and again I trash 90% of the crap that hasnt been looked at in a while.

  88. This is the 21st Century... by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

    No one has touched upon it, but I'll give it a shot:

    Why in Oracle's name are we still amassing paper on our desks???

    I used to be extremely messy, with post-its and papers scattered around in piles and finally mounds. In the mid to late 80's I started to think - 'wait a minute! I've got this wonderful information processing machine, and I know how to program it - why don't I go paperless?'

    The first thing I started with was text based - mostly chicken scratch on post-it notes. I transcribed the current 'open' items in this category into my computer (I had one of the early laptops at that time), and started to refer to my notes in the computer. More importantly I forced myself to use the computer to enter new notes!

    After that I started to investigate other options. For names and addresses I found a virtual 'rolodex' program - goodbye paper based address book. I built up a bibliography list of books I owned as well as ones I was interested in aquiring, with brief descriptions of their contents - this went into a database, so I could search the dataset.

    Over the years this system has become more sophisticated. I have blogs, a wiki, and a CMS (content management) system that I use to collect and search for my writings. On my computer is a virtual post-it 'sticky notes' program that I use to scratch out quick notes, and I've started to digitize, upload, and meta-tag just about anything I get my hands on. Some of these systems are connected to databases to provide access to additional information sources through the web.

    My desk at home is essentially empty. Everything important resides in my laptop, or on a server that I can access from my laptop.

    At work, when people try to hand me paper, I tell them to put it up on our work CMS system (that I put into place for that purpose) -- now most folks are getting into it, and seeing the advantage of being able to go to the website, and search for the doc there, instead of trying to keep track of it themselves on paper. What little paper I am not able to redirect is either filed (e.g. finance and billing records - some battles you can not win), or in one small folder that sits on my desk called 'working'; if the item is small enough, I either scan it, or transcribe it into my own notes in the computer. Most things are generated electronically - so people are usually willing to either send me an electronic copy, or upload it to the website themselves. The added benefit of having documents online is as changes occur - you don't have to worry about keeping your paper version syncronized with the online version.

    What clutter there is has been 'virtualized' (e.g. working documents and scraps on my computer) - and much of it has simply gone away (nice to be able to slap a document into a CMS, attach some meaningful - and searchable - meta information about the document, and then forget about it). I try to limit the time I spend on paper, prefering an electronic document on my desktop to paper, and a URL for the document to the electronic document on my desktop.

    I also spend much less time 'cleaning up' than my neighbors - because I largely don't have to (put a book or two on the shelf and I'm done). It amazes me how much cruft people print out and pile in their offices. It doesn't have to be that way - it is the 21st Century after all... :)

    --

    Lodragan Draoidh
    The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
  89. OK, but here's the deal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work in a 20'x20' room with (at times) 6 other people (4 usually). This room also houses computers, monitors, keyboards, etc. along with tools like RJ45 crimpers, screw-drivers, cable-testers, installation CDs etc. These tools and equipment items are shared by the rooms community. I have several times launched into a neatness/tidy-up tirade and chastised my co-workers for not putting things back 1)where they found them OR 2)where they belong. I've pretty much been on this same soapbox at home with my wife and son. Of course, I have been labeled 'anal retentive', 'obsessive-compulsive', 'neat-freak', etc. Ironically, I look around the room and my personal workspace is just as messy as everyone elses. So here's my message to all of you highly intelligent, creative, highly-productive slobs that have found new empowerment in this article. Be as messy as you want with YOUR stuff and YOUR space, but please keep YOUR mess from mingling with MY mess...and let's keep the things we share organized and tidy so we can find them when we need them. Thank you.

  90. Arg! by Gazzonyx · · Score: 1

    You, sir, are just anal! And incredibly frusterating! My muscle memory automatically adds 2 spaces after a period... Now, you tell me there are only certain times when I'm supposed to use 2. This is almost as bad as the time my teacher tried to tell me 'where' a comma is supposed to go in a sentence. Many children died as the result of safety scissor wounds. Who decided this - we'll have them shot tomorrow at sunup!

    --

    If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

  91. Sig comment by RobertB-DC · · Score: 1

    Who the f*** decided that sentences on the Internet shall no longer be formatted with two spaces after a period?!

    I'm so glad I'm not the only one irked by this. There's no way for me to undo years of habit and start typing a single space. If modern browsers want to close up the space, fine... but I'm going to keep typing two spaces.

    What's frustrating is when automatic HTML formatting tools like Nvu automatically turn the second space into a non-breaking space (nbsp). Half my sentences end at the end of a line and have a CRLF after them, which is treated like a normal space... and the result is that some sentences are separated by single spaces, and others are separated by two spaces. Worse, though: if a sentence is at the start of a line, but has nbsp at the start, my left margin is shot. D'oh!

    Wow. Thanks for giving me an excuse to get *that* off my chest.

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
  92. Mental exercise by 3choTh1s · · Score: 1

    I would assume that the reason slobs would be more productive is that they have to use more of their brain keeping track of what they need is in what place. Keeping things neat would only mean that your brain gets lazy and your brain would want to keep that laziness state. Giving it things to do constantly would make it want to constantly working state.

  93. Icon Management by CrazedWalrus · · Score: 1

    I don't know about you, but my linux "desktop" is a mess too. It occurs to me that this is a great way to manage all those desktop icons. Feature request for Nautilus/Konq?

    Icons used in the last week (for example) stay on the desktop. Icons not used in the past week go into a virtual desktop folder marked 'Older Stuff' or some such. The top level of this folder contains icons used in the last month and a series of (virtual) folders marked 'spreadsheets', 'text files', 'documents', etc. These folders hold icons that haven't been used in over a month (or whatever), grouped by type. Once a user clicks on anything in this folder or the type-based subfolders, it goes back to the desktop automatically, and waits to get aged out again.

    Basically just age-based and type-based search folders for desktop icons. Configurable, of course.

    Good? Bad? Ugly? You decide.

    1. Re:Icon Management by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I like it.

      I have a full 1280 x 1024 desktop of icons (I delete or move them about 5 a day as I add stuff).

      I sort it by modified time and can easily find stuff by searching my memmory of when I downloaded/copied/edited a file relative to another.

      The changes I would make would be:

      1) Rather than strictly moving old stuff, I would have it move when desktop is x% filled.
      2) Have it so things can be pegged to stay (If I don't use the trash/recycle for a month I still want it.
      3) Since Windows have no limit to what they can hold I would not go 1 month old then subcatagories. I want to be able to scan ALL of everything I left on my desktop at once.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    2. Re:Icon Management by BillyBlaze · · Score: 1

      I'd really love to see a Firefox extension that organizes bookmarks in this way. Within every bookmark folder, every subfolder and then every bookmark would be sorted in order of descending use count. Optional, of course, to allow for people who remember exactly where each bookmark is in the list. This would also be a good idea for the Start menu, which is currently about as ugly as it gets (programs are alphabetically by company name, followed by more programs arranged by date of install, still hidden behind their company name, ugh).

    3. Re:Icon Management by Uzuri · · Score: 1

      You must be my long lost twin. I've done this at work forever.

      Much better than my family's method which is all four people throw everything into one folder, regardless of who made it, needs it, or when it was last accessed.

      --
      I'm a she-slashdotter... but I make up for it by living with my folks.
  94. Neater ppl tend to throw away stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I find that often the neater person throws away more stuff. This leads to two things:

    1. their space stays more neat
    2. they usually don't have important stuff unless it's current, so they pull the lazy 'tude and say "go to so and so, he keeps everything". In which case, messy pack rat person is either saving the day or is overworked because neat boy can't handle dealing with old stuff.

    Now, there are obvious divisions of importance as perceived by the individual, but generally, I find what I say to be true.

  95. and messy != disorganized by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

    I call it "chaotic organization". It isn't a mess, nor is it cluttered, nor is it disorganized. Decades ago I proved it to my mother who quit nagging me to 'clean my room'. One day I got fed up with it and told her it was not messy or organized, just chaotic to her, and that I knew where everything was. So she quizzed me. She would ask me where something was and I'd tell her. She would then check. After about 15 minutes of this she realized I was right. And quit nagging me about my room's "chaotic organization".

    What is sad to me is that we still have people that insist that there is one best way for pretty much everything. Well, the "neatness nazis" are claiming their way is best, most "chaotic organization" people simply say theirs works for them. Go figure.

    My desk is chaotically organized. I've found the phrase "A clean desk is a sure sign of a sick mind" quite appealing. My computer racks are strictly categorized as are my woodworking and automotive tools. Even to the point of the drawers being labeled (that's new and still advancing however). There is a good reason why for me one works in one area and fails in another.

    --
    My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
  96. Causal by wall0159 · · Score: 1

    Not to nitpick (I agree with what you way) I don't think "causational" is a word. The word you want is "causal" Cheers!

  97. Moo by Chacham · · Score: 1

    This is simply the P/J scale on the MBTI. This has been around for over half a century.

    Amazing on people are reinventing the wheel over and over again.

  98. I'm a slob.. and I have ADD by asLEEpy · · Score: 1

    I know I'm a 'slob'. I also happen to have ADD which happens to support my slob tendencies. I rarely do laundry unless all my clothing is dirty. I rarely do dishes unless almost all my dishes are dirty. I rarely vacuum or clean the living room unless it's very clearly disorganized. Now with most of my days actions, I care to do things all at once (when I'm really focused to do whatever I'm doing at the moment) because I for some reason I feel I'm more efficient that way. After all, I can study effectively for courses when I'm interested and focused on them much more than when I'm not, and I usually have to spend less time trying to remember yesterday's lecture subject when I do my homework after class versus days later. This all applies to my cleanliness in the same way. I hate cleaning, and doing laundry, and doing dishes, so I wait as long as I can to do them in order to reduce the amount of time I have to spend on those areas. If I lug all 4 bags of my laundry into the laundromat every month, that saves me the 40 minutes of driving I'd have to do if I chose to do my laundry once a week. Essentially the laws of cleaning are governed by thermodynamics, stuff always becomes dirty (stuff likes to expand whence it came), so no matter how many times I clean, I'll have to clean more. Tolerating the few dirty plates on my coffee table reduces those minutes of my life (which I'll never ever get back) having to clean the junk up. Now when a few girls come over, that's a different story...

  99. literally? by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    a person who can literally sense where the things in his house are Electricity-bill sense... tingling!
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  100. A quote about programmers and messiness. by Brobock · · Score: 1

    The programmer, who needs clarity, who must talk all day to a machine that demands declarations, hunkers down into a low-grade annoyance. It is here that the stereotype of the programmer, sitting in a dim room, growling from behind Coke cans, has its origins. The disorder of the desk, the floor; the yellow Post-It notes everywhere; the whiteboards covered with scrawl: all this is the outward manifestation of the messiness of human thought. The messiness cannot go into the program; it piles up around the programmer.

    (Ellen Ullman)
  101. That sound in New Haven? by jpellino · · Score: 1

    That would David Gelernter, running a leaf blower through his office to get some work done.

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  102. Mess = Sickness. by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1
    Feng Shui dictates that cluttered space stops the energy flow through a room, which leads to stagnation and ill-health. I've seen practical examples of this.

    I have room mates who have problems cleaning up after themselves and keeping common spaces uncluttered. It goes beyond the generic version of this, though. It's really a fascinating situation. I'm not a particularly neat person, but I find myself regularly cleaning all the dishes and putting stuff away after them so that we have a functional kitchen, and each time I've seen them unconsciously/on-purpose mess it up within a very few minutes. They like to exist in a state of chaos either because it fits their head-space, (very creative energetic people).

    Okay. If I don't mind cleaning, which I don't, then things tend to work nicely.

    However, whenever I decide not to clean for some reason, or if I go away for a week, I'll come back to such a state of chaos that you cannot even move through the house. (Stacks of junk in doorways which you can't even see over, style-chaos). Interestingly, when it gets like this, the mood in the house disintegrates quickly. When just walking around becomes frustrating, and when you can't perform basic day-to-day functions like cooking food because all the pots and pans are dirty and you can't clean them because the sink is over-flowing with dirty plates preventing you from even reaching the faucet, and you can't even get to the sink because there is a sewing machine and box of books and a fully-deployed laundry-drying rack filling the minimal floor space left over. . . Well, a lot of your energy and awareness are used up just trying to perform basic survival functions. When a small problem arises which requires quick actions and quick thought and free energy, it instantly balloons into a full-scale emergency with people shouting and crying and hurting themselves. I've felt at such times like a claustrophobic in a submarine. I am not exaggerating on any of these points.

    Now, I've always felt that the home is supposed to be a relaxing place, and the kitchen is the very heart of the home. When there is so much clutter and mess that simple living becomes an exercise in frustration, then it means that there is no place to relax in your own home. This affects not just the mood, but health. As an experiment, I decided to stop cleaning for two weeks. Wow! I watched the state of mental and physical health in my room mates drop like a rock. Everybody was tired and sick and angry. When I'd finally seen enough, I told them that it was time for them to clean up and that I was beginning to get angry with them for being so disrespectful. I didn't have to push hard, but it did take some firm words. In the end I got them to clean it all up. Almost instantly, the mood of the house became positive and health problems vanished. Life started to flow again.

    They still have trouble with cleaning. I'm moving out next month, and they have a baby on the way, so it'll be interesting to see how things go. (I don't nag at all, but I have casually told them that their kind of preferred environment simply won't work for a baby, and without me around to keep the chaos in a manageable state, things are going to go bad fast unless they learn some basic living skills fast. To this end, I've stopped cleaning again, (except for my own stuff which I always stay on top of), and have been applying some mental pressure towards their learning how to run a house. They're picking it up slowly, and I wish them the very best of luck with it. We'll have to see how it goes when I'm gone. I've seen bad in other young parents, and it can lead to horrible living environments and terrible health problems, so I really do hope they 'get' it.

    Anyway, my point is that the article might be right in some respects, -Ordered chaos is a great state to be in as it offers up tons of ideas and random energy which are wonderful for a creative mind. But chaos which tips the balance too far will screw you up and make you angry and sick.

    Or to make a long story short. . , There's Ordered Chaos and there's just plain old Chaos.

    You have to pick.


    -FL

  103. i'm a slob. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i knew it was a good idea to put 'slob' on my resume.

  104. Article found to contain no research by ToastyKen · · Score: 1

    "Found to be" sounds like this was a research paper or something, but it sounds instead like just some dude blabbing in a book! I was disappointed. :\

  105. 40 years of marriage by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

    Yup - my parents have been married for 40 years this year and they go through that same fight usually 3 or 4 times a day AT LEAST!

    --
    Libertas in infinitum
  106. Old, but relevant... by absurdist · · Score: 1

    ...How can you tell the DEC field rep with a flat tire?
    He's the one in the nice suit changing every tire to see which one's flat.
    How can you tell the DEC field rep who's run out of gas?
    He's the one in the nice suit changing every tire to see which one's flat.

  107. Oblig. Real Genius Quote by coolGuyZak · · Score: 1
    Got half way down the page... I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet:

    Chris Knight: You didn't touch anything, did you?
    Mitch: No.
    Chris Knight: Good. Because all of my filth is arranged in alphabetical order. This, for instance, is under 'H' for 'toy'.
  108. it's the contrast, silly! by tomatoguy · · Score: 1

    I was a janitor for about 17 years with my Dad (grades 3-11 after dinner 5x a week), and then a hospital orderly. Both exposed me, from an early age, to the day-to-day cycle of tidying up. I think that did something to my approach to clutter. Now, having had some kind of office/desk for over 25 years, my approach is to clean up when it bugs me most, and when i can enjoy the new state most. I keep "dirty" at bay, because I'm not _that_ much of a slob, but "tidy" is really not worth micromanaging. Plus, there are better anal-retentive moments of satisfaction at the end of tidying up (or mowing the lawn or shovelling the walks or washing the windows) because I enjoy the _contrast_ between the old messy and the new tidy. ... and it's a satisfying way to procrastinate!

  109. Re:Slobiness as a system by Foktip · · Score: 1

    Exactly! When i was in Engineering (and even still), i basically just made piles around my room (i liked to call them "que stacks"), and shoved more important things (when they required more mobility) into various folders. The most important folder was my red "TODO!!!" folder. After that came the "current" folder, followed by the "somewhat important" folder, the "do later" folder, and the "FUN!!!" folder (that usually had Scientific American's and printed internet articles in it ;D ).

    Other than that, i threw recent lecture notes onto a clipboard and two clipboard-like-folders that held them until i had enough time to put them into their actual binders, which was like, once every two weeks. It didnt matter if anything was in a binder, since i was always re-reading stuff.

    The biggest problem i had wasnt finding stuff, it was moving about without knocking stuff over, and the heat of summer. Once you get really hot, you just instinctively turn on the fan, and suddenly everything you were working on goes all to hell. Which is why i started weighing down piles with textbooks - the papers cant get knocked over, OR fanned!

  110. Remind me of a story by amlai · · Score: 1

    From AI Koan...

    "In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.

    "What are you doing?", asked Minsky.

    "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe" Sussman replied.

    "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky.

    "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said.

    Minsky then shut his eyes.

    "Why do you close your eyes?", Sussman asked his teacher.

    "So that the room will be empty."

    At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

  111. Paging is more accurate, yes by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

    Wow, you are correct, a paging alogrithm much more accurately describes the procedure.

    However, the greater /. population is probably more aware of garbage collection than paging. So, the comment was possibly more effective over the average of all of slashdot.

    And, it does not make it a complete waste of time for work_process, because the working set for a process usually does not include all of its pages in memory. Indeed, the page faults will return the working set to memory quite effectively, leaving the stuff which hasn't been touched in ages paged out to disk.

    It would be technically more efficient to avoid work_process' working set, if you could. This could be approximated by leaving the "top layer" of the desk on the desk, but filing away everything underneath it, since the top layer will likely contain the most important items.

    Glad to see your education at work!

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
  112. It Depends On The Level Of Interaction by stan_freedom · · Score: 1

    If a person's daily work flow doesn't involve much interaction with others, then I don't think organization is important. However, if I have to cover for my slovenly co-worker, then organization is critical. A good example would be code development. If I'm writing code for a script or small standalone app, my code's organization/documentation isn't really that important. If I can understand it, then that's all that counts. But if other developers are involved, then the code needs to be standardized (organized). This also extrapolates to desks and physical work environments. In my current job at a small business, I sometimes have to cover for a sales rep who is unavailable to take a customer's call. If that sales rep's desk is a mess (to me), then it's nearly impossible for me to coherently communicate with the customer. If the desk is organized, I can generally find the info I need to handle the customer.

    I worked at Boeing back in the early nineties. They were bringing over a lot of Japan's business methodologies, such as quality improvement, work flow, etc. One of the things they implemented was the three CCCs, which while I don't remember what the abreviation stands for, translated to cleanliness and organization. They applied it to the entire company, from the plant floor to the tool shops to the offices. It was an extensive and expensive project. I seriously doubt Boeing would have engaged if there wasn't an ROI. I would like to know that the plane I'm flying on was built in a clean and organized environment. Do you want the engineer with the messy desk pushing changes down to the shop floor, where a similarly disorganized mechanic is installing wiring harnesses to the flight controls? Not me. I'll take the anal-retentive guy every time.

  113. Some (half-assed) algorithm analysis by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    Neatness does not imply productive ease of access and mess does not imply disorganization.

    That's true, and I'm messy, but I find that neat and organized beats neat or messy any day.

    But, it's only optimized for reads and searches, O(n). Insertion is hard as you have to build your indexes, O(n log n), perhaps.

    Seriously, I know 'neat' people who just shove crap into drawers to look neat and can't find anything. Insertion is O(1) but reads and searches are n^2 time.

    A messy desk is more like O(1) for inserts and O(n log n) for searches and reads. One nice advantage is you data automatically winds up in a chronologically sorted stack, and if that can work as a priority queue for your problem, bonus. But once you do a search and read your data structure falls apart.

    I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to consider the garbage collection consequences.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  114. messy people have cache by G4from128k · · Score: 1

    I like your analysis.

    The only change I'd make is that neat people suffer greater access times due to the differences in the physical media. The seek time for eyeballs on the desktop is much lower than the seek time on the hands in the cabinet.

    A messy desk is like a big L2 cache and a neat desk is a cache-less system (everything is relegated to secondary storage). A messy person might suffer from O(n^2) search on their desktop, but its on a very low latency system. Physically delving into a filing cabinet always takes longer than scanning the desktop, even if the the organized cabinet access is O(n).

    The optimum combines both a "messy" desktop cache and an organized "neat" secondary storage medium but that seems like a rarity among humans.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:messy people have cache by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      A messy person might suffer from O(n^2) search on their desktop, but its on a very low latency system.

      Excellent point. Like a typical CS analysis I completely ignored the engineering 'details'. :)

      The optimum combines both a "messy" desktop cache and an organized "neat" secondary storage medium but that seems like a rarity among humans.

      I'm workin' on it, honest!

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    2. Re:messy people have cache by G4from128k · · Score: 1

      The optimum combines both a "messy" desktop cache and an organized "neat" secondary storage medium but that seems like a rarity among humans.

      I'm workin' on it, honest!



      Excellent! Please send me a copy when you get it working. My desktop (and floor) cache is relatively effective, but my secondary storage architecture is a mess. I really need HFS (Human Filing System) 2.0 although I fear my old brain has too many bad sectors to support installation of a new file system software.

      Ah, the joys and sorrows of wetware.

      --
      Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    3. Re:messy people have cache by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I really need HFS (Human Filing System) 2.0

      Consider a coprocessor. I'm going to get one just as soon as I can afford it. There's no point in making a perfectly good CPU that's great at lots of stuff but bad at floating point try to emulate one when a good FP coprocessor can be had for $35. It doesn't really matter if that's all it does, because it's cheap.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  115. Re:Regarding 2 spaces after a period by Douglas+Goodall · · Score: 1

    The convention of two spaces after a period is a very American one. Because web pages are written in HTML, adding two spaces does nothing. The same is true in many word processors when dealing with fonts that don't have fixed character widths. If you are an English teacher, I understand your problem. If you are just a punctuation freak, get over it. Read the HTML specification and think about your experience with word processors, those after wordstar, and ask yourself when the last time having one space kept you from understanding what was being said.