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MS Trying To Spur Vista Sales With Discounts
Ang writes "Is Microsoft having worries about selling Vista already? Ars reports that Microsoft has announced yet another 'discount program' for Vista, but these new discounts work out to only about 10% off list price — not much when you notice that retailers already sell Vista below list. To make matters worse, the discount program would still end up costing you $100 more than the older 'family' discount built around Vista Ultimate in some situations. Ars spends seven paragraphs explaining this convoluted offer. Is all of this complexity supposed to help sell Vista?" If you must buy Vista, it might be advisable to sit on your wallet for a while. The discounts are bound to get sweeter.
Last couple of times I've visited Costco there have been huge and nearly full Vista racks. It's pretty early in a product cycle for Vista to be in Costco... let alone in Costco and not moving.
Is Microsoft having worries about selling Vista already? ... To make matters worse, the discount program would still end up costing you $100 more than the older 'family' discount
Ok, then they're not worried about selling Vista, if the new discount program is worse than the old discount program. A rational person would draw the opposite conclusion: that they're confident in Vista sales numbers. At least, enough to reduce the incentive.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Not buying Vista at all, ever, will save you the most money in the long run. Not to mention aggravation.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
I'm planning switch my existing XP licences to new hardware if I decide to get a new machine. Arguably Microsoft should have to pay early adopter for the risk associated with a new Windows release, when you consider the TCO disadvantage.
-- http://thegirlorthecar.com funny dating game for guys
Tom Peterson says "Free is a very good price!".
And I agree.
At this point, I have no interest in paying for Windows. I do, however, require at least one Windows box (currently XP64) for gaming and testing deployment of some of our enterprise applications at home. I also don't really care to go through the trouble of finding a viable crack on bit torrent or anything. I will probably buy it once there are games which I must have that demand DirectX10 for the coolest gaming experience -- and I will do so when I am in the process of building a new machine so that I can get the OEM version.
Even at that, I will not spend $200. I might spend $140. And that's for the full version (4gb+, multi-core, 64bit, etc). Otherwise they can just eat it. The only reason I ever need to jump off my solaris, debian or OSX boxes is to play games. Period.
So - in effect what the summary (and yes I glanced ad the convoluted link) is that an OS that is available in 7 different versions would have a complex discount scheme.
And Microsoft is suprised that people aren't jumping into this? Hell, it makes shopping for HDTVs simple in comparrision.
I still don't quite understand why people would rush to get Vista. XP works the same if not better, there's actually mature driver support (well, mature is a relative term when talking about ATI, NVidia et al), and you know the software you need works on XP. This reminds me of over a decade ago when we all rushed to get Windows 95 the day it came out, only to pummel our PC's into dust with all the problems it caused. Printers no longer printing, internet dialer no longer dialing, and of course the joys of our old 16-bit apps crashing half the time. It was painful. I ended up dual-booting back to classic Dos + Wfw311 for a while longer while the dust settled. Vista is going to be the same story... give it a year, for most users it will have stabilized and 3rd party support will be established. Right now it doesn't even know which end to poop from.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
... is that I switched to Vista about 2 weeks ago and am loving it. Despite all the negativity people seem to have about it I find most of that negativity comes from people who have never installed it or used it.
All this is saying is that people don't (yet) want Vista at any price.
After a new version of Windows is released, if you buy a new PC you get it pre-installed, as it is usually the only choice available. If your machine is 4+ years old you never upgrade. Otherwise, you best wait 1 1/2 years for SP1 to get the features, usability, and security Microsoft had hoped to ship; maybe with some entertainment "pack" stuff thrown in. Or you can wait for SP2, which works out that you just forget about it as far as that machine is concerned.
XP SP2 is reasonably stable, I don't see any point in upgrading.
Still looking for a the off button on your life when life instead should be lived to the max? If you can't deal with the joys of life, go back to your mother's basement. Life isn't designed for pale, spineless people.
Haiku: Move along...
Sony is failing,
Windows Vista is failing,
Nothing to see here.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C1 bottles of beer on the wall. Take one down, pass it round... Oh, umm...
Microsoft makes most of its money through its OEM deals. I believe the number bandied about is that 80% of its Windows revenue comes not directly from the consumer, but from the "Microsoft tax" on nearly all computers sold. Also, the price MS charges OEMs for Windows is already a lot lower than that charged for an off-the-shelf version. A lot of Microsoft's revenue also depends on businesses and government, not consumers. These "discounts" seem more like the fevered imaginings of a marketing drone who wants to make Windows seem like a "sweet deal". It may not even be a ploy to make more sales in the consumer section, it might be just another trick to increase awareness of the Vista brand; nothing makes consumers perk up their ears like the word "discount", even if they are ultimately not interested in a new operating system.
More and more I'm seeing these types of stories pop up:
* "FREE AT LAST" by David Bond 03/19/2007
Quotes from the "FREE AT LAST" linked article above: (bold emphasis mine)
"But we were prepared for this Microsoft gambit. Why, we asked, after thousands of dollars already expended, should we feed the Microsoft maw again? Why this kilobuck penalty because we're getting a new machine? Made no sense."
"So down it came to the nut-cutting time. Brand-new computer, sitting here on top of the desk. Chicken-out, go with Windows, or take the Linux plunge. Let's see: $800 for Vista and Office 2007, single install, or Ubuntu, Firefox and Open Office, all for free."
IMO, I feel the title of that most excellent article pretty much sums up the growing change going on today. Why spend when a free and open alternative exists?
Seems familiar...
Take a lesson from sony, this should help:
Cue Ballmer: "If you can find a [copy of vista] anywhere in North America that's been on shelves for more than a few minutes, I'll give you 1,200 bucks for it."
Apart from generating revenue, MS has to prove to share holders that the $5bn that was spent on Vista development was worth doing and they can only do that by showing an increase in sales vs XP. There must be a lot of shareholders wondering whether it would have been better to just put the money in the bank and ride XP for longer. After all, anyone not buying Vista would still buy XP, so what motivates spending $5bn?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Then again, if Steve Jobs were to beat you to the punch and "officially" support OSX on standard x86 PC's you could kiss my $$ goodbye forever Micrsoft! Sadly, this is not likely to happen anytime soon.
yoiu need nature in a traditional Haiku.
Sony is failing
The Vista is limited,
Nothing to see here.
I used vista as a pun. So It can read either way.
Yes, it is a poor pun, but that's just the first one off my head.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Is Microsoft having worries about selling Vista already?
Yeh, sure...Microsoft is crying all the way to the bank.
Is this that slow of a news day?
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
This will furfill most requirements except hardcore gamers....
I can't believe Microsoft can sell their expensive O/S at that price, no wonder they rely on discounts.
In Australia the list price for Ultimate is something like $750 !
Can almost buy a full hardware computer for that kind of money... insane.
+1 on the save your money and avoid the aggravation until you now longer can avoid it concept
I have a home network with 6 Macs of various types and three solid home-built PCs running XP. Everything (for now) seems to work great. Why in the world should I spend any money at all for Vista? Just wondering.
There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John von Neumann
Is that it doesn't play nicely with AD domains. I know, we tried it and it failed miserably. Microsoft really dropped the ball on this one. I mean, even 2000 and XP could connect to both standard NT domains and AD domains. But Vista has issues, even going so far as completely screwing up the network settings. And friends in the market for a laptop are begging me to downgrade their machines to XP because critical applications they use will NOT run on Vista.
sitting on my wallet, and if anything the 20 dollars will go towards pizza. not vista.
funny how they only display one menu at a time...
You have Vista Home, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, Vista Enterprise and Vista Ultimate.
IMO, Vista Enterprise shouldn't exist with the bitlocker and other "enterprise" features being either made available in Vista Business or as some kind of add-on.
The "N" versions need to exist to comply with anti-trust rulings and really are just the normal versions with windows media player files removed from the CD/DVD
and the installer.
That would basically leave 4 editions of vista, Home Basic, Home Premium, Business and Ultimate
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
the only way id install vista on a system is vista provide any equipment needed to upgrade my computer to current status. (no im not on a Radioshack color computer with a 300 baud modem) but the waste of space by the huge bulk of code may make it easy for a newbie to use a computer but why buy a hyper code stystem that is Apple OS the long way around??
How about "Buy Vista, and we'll throw in XP for free! XP! The operating system that works:
* High Productivity. None of those annoying UAC messages!
* Device Driver Compatibility. Hardware will work out of the box!
* Applications just work: Even Firefox! Even Visual Studio 2003!
* No DRM. Watch your movies and listen to your music when you want how you want.
* More efficient code, so works on today's hardware! Not only tomorrows!
* XP is cheaper and doesn't have a dozen different versions: 'Oh sir you'll need the Vista Sub Pro Business Home Basic Version!'
* Doesn't make you call Microsoft everytime you want permission to pee
Vista is to XP what New Coke(R) was to Classic Coke(R).
Coca Cola also couldn't sell New Coke and offered discounts and coupons to make New Coke cheaper in attempts to sell more of it.
Finally faced with reality, Coca Cola took New Coke off the market and replaced it with Coca Cola Classic or Classic Coke.
Once Microsoft figures out that Windows Vista is New Coke, maybe it will do the right thing and offer Windows Classic?
If I was Steve Ballmer or Bill Gates I'd offer the following:
Windows Classic 9X (Based on the Windows 95/98/ME code but with improvements and new drivers for Firewire, USB 2.0, SATA) aimed at the low end consumers market and for upgrades for low-tech and low end systems. Priced at $90USD and $45USD for an upgrade.
Windows Classic NT (Based on Windows 2000/XP code but with improvements and new drivers for Firewire, USB 2.0, SATA) The Home version for $129USD, the Business version for $179, and the Media Center version for $199
Windows Classic Server (Based on Windows 2000 Server/2003 Server code) with server applications, and starting at $300USD for a 10 client license, and offering varied prices based on the number of client licenses.
The Windows Classic 9X I would market towards the low end, people with older systems who cannot run modern operating systems. There are so many older 95, 98, ME systems out there that are not longer patched for security that it leaves them vulnerable to hackers and viruses. Having a new, low cost, version of Windows would stop the viruses and hacking, as well as fit their needs of a low cost operating system because they cannot afford to upgrade the hardware. Of course it won't run 2000/XP or Windows Classic NT software, but there is still plenty of Windows 9X type software out there.
The Windows Classic NT would be marketed towards modern hardware and people who want an OS with more features in it, who don't mind paying extra for it. The Home version is the very basics and the core of the Windows Classic NT OS. Business adds in more supports for networks, logging into a domain, running an ISS web server, etc. Media Center allows better control of media and creating media and sharing it with other devices as a server.
The Windows Classic Server is basically a File, Print, Web, Email, etc general server. I would keep a low cost of $300USD for 10 client licenses so that small businesses can afford it, and then charge more for more client licenses.
Now these Classic operating systems wouldn't have all the features of Vista, and Vista would be kept for those who want to run it. The Classic operating systems would allow security companies to write security software for them like antivirus, firewall, drive encryption, etc.
If Microsoft won't make Windows Classic 9X, just release all of the undocumented 9X API calls so some other company can write a 9X operating system from scratch to cater to those who want to run an older version of Windows.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
They will never get sweet enough for me...
I remain 100% GNU/Linux and pleased as can be.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Consider also that most websites don't use the a full screen. It occurred to me when I was using windows (I now use Ubuntu) that it was an awful waste to maximaze all the websites.. only to have 1/4 page of empty space on either side. Although, I find that the mac system has the infuriating tendency to make rear-most pages inaccessabl,e if you aren't careful about how you arrange your windows. Safari fails it- No tabbed browsing? wtf.
I've got a discount for ya'. Bittorrent + Windows Vista DVD (contains all versions) + OEM patch. There ya' go. Free.
I personally run it at work and can say its like a kinda buggy xp install. Of course the first thing I did was turn the resource hogging themes off, going classic wherever possible. Its really not that different than xp. You have to be quiet the sleuth for drivers, even from big companies. Just because asus has one soundmax driver, doesnt mean they have a driver for all sounmax motherboards. I also turned off UAC straight away, and considering its in a corporate environment, the firewall. It doesnt re confirm a logoff, but it has "sleep" as the default option, which has never ever worked right in the history of M$. Its all like that. Some good, windows mail much faster, then bad, normally stable apps (firefox or symantec av) crash sometimes for no apparent reason. Good luck if you depend on any badly coded apps. Dlink is the king in that department. Easily copyable paths are not needed, hibernation enabled by default, stupid RDP transmiting my login and pass over the network when it could just act like the old rdp client AND NOT DO THAT. little things.
The whole os is like that. hopefully the bad half of things will be taken out in service packs.
its windows, where else you gonna go?
Windows XP Upgrades still goes for $99 for a fully legal copy (the full version is ~$150-$200). MS has NEVER offered steep discounts on its OSs, even years and years after they came out. It won't happen this time either. I know the market situation is different, Mac OS X and Linux are gaining ground, but no one ever accused MS of trying to temper their greed with more realistic pricing and marketing.
I skipped WindowsME I think I can live without Vista. I was actually considering building two mid-range machines. One for DOS to run all my oldest games and one with 98. I don't need to move forward.
The Windows Classic 9X I would market towards the low end, people with older systems who cannot run modern operating systems
I hope at least in your own mind you were trying to be funny.
The Win9x code base with no security and roots to 3.1 and DOS is why developers have screwed up many applications still in use on XP.
Also consider XP runs well on 80MB and a 200mhz processor (faster than Win95 or Win98 did), it is time to let these computers die, as most Linux distributions won't even run on them.
dude, seriously wtf...
Why would microsoft want to support multiple code bases that render a display and run binaries in pretty much the same way. And Windows 98 needs to die.
I have a better idea. Layer 3 firewalls at every ISP to watch for identificable Windows95/98/ME traffic and when it is seen, Deny all on that. Screw these horrible people running these horrible old OSs.
I installed a free copy of Vista I got from Dell about 2 weeks ago as well, and immediately uninstalled it. I had made an image of my hard drive pre-upgrade with Norton Ghost so it was pretty easy to do so. I was actually pretty excited about Vista, and ended up being disappointed. My primary complaints include (there may have been more but I uninstalled too quickly to find them):
- they eliminated the expanding "All Programs" menu from the Start menu (wtf?), so instead you have to scroll up and down interminably on a little window in the Start menu. Think of it like using Start on your Blackberry. It's either that or use search to find your program.
- 10,000 shades of teal mixed with an unchangeable grey/black/silver Taskbar / Start menu = extreme nausea, plus there is no way to change it.
- Flip 3D is not useful because you have to use either a 3-key combo to use it or click on a little button on the taskbar to use it. I would have preferred just using my mouse scrollwheel...
- The "User Access Control" thing warned me 3 times in a row about WinRAR and I couldn't just approve the program...
- The start button is a lot harder to click on now since it's not synonymous with the corner - you have to visually find it.
I really liked IE until they screwed everything up in IE7, and now I've started using Firefox. I am wondering whether Vista will do the same thing and force me to start using a Mac and/or Linux. Linux still isn't an option though because the media copyright issues make it hard to use for multimedia applications. And a Mac screams "vendor lock-in". So maybe I'll just use XP forever...
Safari has tabbed browsing. You just have to enable it in preferences.
Windows Classic 9X (Based on the Windows 95/98/ME code but with improvements and new drivers for Firewire, USB 2.0, SATA) aimed at the low end consumers market and for upgrades for low-tech and low end systems. Priced at $90USD and $45USD for an upgrade.
The 9.x branch of Windows should be left as dead. The NT/2000/XP branch has more stability than the the 9.x branch. MS should actually create a slim downed version of NT/2000/XP for low end systems.
Disclaimer: I am not an MS fan boy; I prefer Solaris / Linux / *BSD'S for my work and personal use.
- Do NOT, under any circumstances, upgrade an existing XP machine to Vista, even if it's Vista Supremo Premium Ultra-Capable.
- When you get a new computer, if it comes with Vista, that's when you'll upgrade.
- Do NOT buy a new computer just to get Vista, if your existing XP-based machine is working well enough.
Of course, Microsoft probably doesn't want me saying that...but screw 'em.Be who you are...and be it in style!
I feel obliged to point you to this at this point :-).
My UID is prime. Is yours?
Ubuntu is as compelling.
In one case the Home Premium upgrades are practically 1/3 the cost of the other, yet both are "discount" programs. By spending about $100 more for Ultimate, you save about $100 each on Home Premium, although you are limited to two such purchases.
I DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!
Do not RTFA your brain will asplode!
We can't deal with multiple windows at once?
You mean like how, on Windows XP, I have five windows open at once, one of which being Firefox with four tabs?
I guess you're right, PC users can't deal with multiple windows.
Believe it or not, Microsoft has actually done this. It's called Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs. The reason you haven't heard about it is because Microsoft does not advertise it at all, and also because it's only available to corporate customers.
See the Wikipedia article for more information.
I've always wondered why it is OK for Apple to restrict to one OS but not Dell?!?! Big outcry went to Dell for not offering other OS choices yet not a peep out of anyone against Apple.
And DRM will stop the uptake when users can't transfer the media from one device to another. There is already a backlash against Apple for this very reason.
This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
Regardless how good or bad it is, you and I both know Vista will find its way onto 90+% of desktops as home users and corporations upgrade their computers within the next 2-3 years. Retail sales are a drop in the bucket for Microsoft. If it turns out to be a real turd (ala WinMe, which incidentally I don't believe Vista is anything like), adoption may be a bit slower than XP.
> The Microsoft corporation are running scared? I are appalled at
> your poor grammar.
Many persons seem to think that if the whole (such as a "group") has constituent parts then the whole should be referred to in the plural (as in "the group are")
Of course this is completely illogical and flies in the face of standard English grammar which uses the plural verbal form when the subject is in the plural form (ie ends with "s", "es", or "en").
The 9.x branch of Windows should be left as dead. The NT/2000/XP branch has more stability than the the 9.x branch. MS should actually create a slim downed version of NT/2000/XP for low end systems.
Ummm... no, that's not what it is. It's a thin client OS running virtually everything off a server through RDP via a technology and software MS "licensed" from someone else. Ooooh, but you can run Telnet local!!!
Sorry, but if MS could have done this, they would have. There is no such thing unfortunately, though their little web page does make it sound like such a product as you described till you read deeper on the page.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
I had the misfortune to come across two laptops with Vista in work (You know the drill, they just appear and they need em ASAP) I thought I would give it a go, it cant be that bad, can it? Within a few hoursI was ready to throw the thing out the window and was screaming obscenities. Half baked didnt come into it. Firstly Groupwise, our #1 app wouldnt work properly (at least not without installing some beta version of the latest client), our #2 app (Cognos) fell over without any prompting, and every single operation was long winded to say the least, Am i sure I want to connect to this network, do you want to run this setup etc. IE7 wouldnt let me download files to other folders. A complete mess. HOWEVER M$/HP made it almost impossible to install XP on it. Firstly, you cannot downgrade your licence. Then if you look at the HP website for the NX7300, its Vista all the way baby. So you have to find out the hardware in the box and download it from other sites (ie broadcom) but even after that, its still not good because some drivers are just not available for XP, full stop. That my friends is how they are forcing you to use Vista. It literally cost my company at least $1000 of my time to manage to de vistafy and manually build 3 laptops (one sony, two HPs) The build time on these machines, rather than being a few hours (minus the 100+ updates) was measured in days. Don't get me wrong, im not Anti MS but they really screwed up this puppy.
http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
Have you ever actually used Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs, or are you just spouting your mouth off? You can run firefox locally on WinFLP. See screenshot here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS?
You get a little 'No' cursor, though I'm pretty sure I've lived well without it.
Meanwhile, if I want to drag something from, say, firefox (one of maybe three applications I ever maximize) to an open application, I just hover over its taskbar icon for a second before moving to the program.
A nifty thing I did see was the 'fold and drop' interface for getting shit out of your way when you want to get 'behind' a window.
110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
Whom should we believe - you or a BBC reporter?
You: I've not had any hardware incompatibilities so far but YMMV. The closest I've gotten to driver incompatibilities was one of the motherboards had an onboard Creative SB Live 5.1 chip. But a visit to Creative's website solved that, though it took some digging.
BBC reporter:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6407419.stm
Once online, Creative's website told me that my sound card was a write-off. No Vista support would be forthcoming.
Grudgingly I ordered a new one. After installing it, the hardware error messages disappeared; the three different errors flagged up by Vista were all triggered by my old sound card.
Vista appears to have been engineered specifically to exclude the hobbyist market... or atleast discourage any experimenting on hardware.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Mac's version of "maximize" opens up as much space as it takes to display whatever has been opened, be it your browser or an audio editing program. I suppose that's not for everybody. Personally, I don't need to see a whole bunch of empty space on either side of what I'm reading. But more importantly, don't let a coward affect your decision! Give it a try!
My brother works for M$ so he's offered to get me Vista Ultimate and Office 2007 for free. I said no.
Yeah I know, I could have eBayed them, but it would have felt wrong.
Glad to hear it. Stay the fuck off our platform.
I see that you are receiving a lot of criticisms for your post regarding the Windows 98 Platform. Personally, I wouldn't mind if Microsoft offered a ''Windows 98 Gold Version'' containing all the last security updates. I wouldn't expect them to waste valuable time to continue creating security updates for it though - I simply wouldn't have it on a publicly accessible network. The reason I still use Windows 98 is for it's ability to allow applications to directly access the hardware, which allows me to read and write many diskette formats from long dead vintage computers. XP doesn't allow this. Yes, some of my pc's still have 5.25'' drives (is that laughter i hear?). Of course this is also part of the reason for many Windows 98 crashes - I take the good with the bad. For my everday computing, I will continue to use XP in it's many variations, Home, Pro , mediacenter and so forth. I was a BETA TESTER for VISTA and personally, I loved it, but when testing was over, I went back to my Windows XP - I believe Vista's price IS TOO HIGH. Maybe in 5 years when their next OS comes out, I'll buy VISTA, but I doubt it - XP is just good enough, and when it's not, Debian gets the job done. Enjoy the flaming - yourdvd.net
I'd say: if you are going to buy any software, it might be advisable to estimate how much its benefits are worth to you. If the price is higher than that, don't buy it. Vista probably makes sense for someone who "needs" DX10 (debatable, in my opinion) or a versioning filesystem, but hardly for millions of computer users.
Nuffsaid
________
Don't know about his cat, but Schroedinger is definitely dead.
Yeah, that took some getting used to reading / hearing when I was in the UK (and now I notice is right away anytime I see it online) ... It's a Brit thing; I've noticed it a lot on /. since then. That's one difference between US and UK English that I think the US side is clearly correct on (some others are debatable or just "forks" in the language... like s vs. z or absence of an article for words like hospital or keeping the u in certain words, which is just a hold-over). Company names with a plural verb form are particularly grating. ;-)
I do, however, require at least one Windows box (currently XP64) for gaming and testing deployment of some of our enterprise applications at home.
That's the only reason I keep an XP Pro image around. Except I'm not that into gaming. It's really interesting to watch the transition. Not that many years ago you'd have a couple Linux partitions just to keep up on the latest changes but do your serious work on Win 2K. I didn't install XP until experiencing a drive failure three years ago and deciding it was worth the extra $$ to go with XP instead.
Now I keep Windows around for accessing customer systems and testing and do my serious work on Linux. :) Except for video editing and audio mixing, I still use Windows for that.
The single Windows partition takes more piddling (advanced technical term) to keep up to date than the rest of my network combined.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Many people dismiss this topic of optimization as a conspiracy theory, but I must admit that I am starting to believe that such techniques exist.
It is your personal duty to fight for what is right on a daily basis. Ignoring injustice is identical to approving
This new adjustment in their campaign is a refinement designed to bring the Vista Marketing program into greater conformance with the law that states a software product's marketing must substantially resemble the product itself. Compare for example the marketing of Apple (sleek, even snobbish, original, highly creative, and very effective) and Linux (homegrown, word-of-mouth, technically substantial and in-the-trenches results-based factology). Despite their best efforts, MS has yet to achieve in marketing the stunning combination of convolution, deception, irrelevance and ineptitude that their OS embodies. But they're working on it.
Dude, the troll you're responding to is a PC user who probably hasn't seen a Mac outside a store. He's trying to make Mac fans look stupid by throwing silly insults at PC fans.
I'm glad your Windows PC works well for you.
I Like this new stragety...Sell it at a loss and make up for it in volume.
"...a civilian some of the time, a soldier part of the time and a patriot all of the time." -Brig. Gen. James Drain
Is Gap having worries about selling shirts already? Ars reports that Gap has announced yet another 'discount program' for shirts, but these new discounts work out to only about 10% off list price -- not much when you notice that retailers already sell shirts below list. To make matters worse, the discount program would still end up costing you $100 more than the older 'family' discount built around Really Nice Shirts in some situations. Ars spends seven paragraphs explaining this convoluted offer. Is all of this complexity supposed to help sell shirts?
If you must buy a shirt, it might be advisable to sit on your wallet for a while. The discounts are bound to get sweeter.
But there is an unofficial 20-25 percent of new laptop buyers that end up buying a copy of Windows XP Pro; Having that installed over Vista on thier new laptops.
You seem to be forgetting that the last major upgrade was from Windows NT to Windows 2000 - not XP. Windows XP is basically Windows 2000 with window dressing, bells and whistles. Sure there are some nice new additions - but I stuck with win2k+SPn for a long time.. XP didn't offer much more, just like Vista.
I never saw prices on Win98 or XP drop significantly. We may yet see sweeter discounts on Vista, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
-Rich
Titus Barik
Don't get it, it's not ready. Out of the box with its own drivers and software it can work fine. The minute you try to put in video drivers or a third party game or app you could run in to problems. My NVidia drivers still don't appear to be working 100% though they're much better with the latest update I did. Under XP, things "Just worked" and that was that. Vista is an aggrivation, an aggrivation thats full of eye candy.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Apple's OS X operating system performs better with each iteration, on the same hardware.
Here, here! I was just given a B&W PowerMac G3 350MHz. It had MacOS 8.6 and was quite slow, even after an update to 512MB. Just for the hell of it, I did a fresh install of Panther (10.3), and was very impressed with it's responsiveness, especially considering the hard drive is an antique 12GB running on a 33 MHz bus. I think once I buy a SATA controller card and put it in with a couple of 250GB's I have lying around, I will have a perfectly usable 8+ year old computer.
Ignore anything I said above, I actually agree with everything you believe - mod accordingly.
Obviously they need to put the price of Win XP up :-)
"Apparently, this activity is something that ancient computer-scientists used to do, according to some archeologists, but the ancient art of optimization was abandoned sometime during the Microsoft dark-ages. Apparently, this activity is something that ancient computer-scientists used to do, according to some archeologists, but the ancient art of optimization was abandoned sometime during the Microsoft dark-ages."
Of course one could argue that Apple released a terribly inefficient product at the start, making it easy to get better performance later on. That's good PR. Give them crap, and make it slightly less crappy each time out.
I love reading Slashdot and all but honestly I'm sick of the Anti-M$, Pro Linux post. I'm all for Ubuntu Edgy (I run it on my super crappy laptop) but it comes down to this; I have Vista and I can honestly say that I have had no problems since day one (about a month ago). Everything "just worked" like it did in XP. Vista recognized many of my devices from the start, all I needed to do was install the Beta drivers for my GeForce 7600 GT (which I hope won't be beta for too long).
My machine died a horrible death last week.
I had a couple of options, but decided on salvaging the hard drives and getting all new hardware around them instead of just buying a new machine.
One main reason: Vista.
I'm sorry, burned me with Windows ME, Windows 95 and even XP (before the service packs). I refuse to beta test an operating system.
I will stay with XP thankyouverymuch, until I am FORCED to change to Vista.
Now if there were World of Warcraft for Linux...
Of course one could argue that Apple released a terribly inefficient product at the start, making it easy to get better performance later on. That's good PR. Give them crap, and make it slightly less crappy each time out.
But this is far better than releasing a terribly inefficient product at the start and then making the performance worse with each iteration. But I am being unfair here. NT 4.0 was actually a pretty good O.S.. It was lightweight and had good performance. The follow on products were inefficient.
Religion is the main cause of atheism.
That's quite amazing. At some point though Apple is going to stop supporting PPC so you'll hit a permanent plateau unless you install yellow dog.
Does this sig remind you of Agatha Christie?
Yes I have, we have it at work... we run IE "locally". The machine bogs down to a crawl because it has very limited hardware - or the browser stops loading anything because the few megabytes of disk space gets overrun by the cache. Yes, that's a hardware choice, but it is a thin-client station solution based off Windows Fundamentals. And the whole basis of the product is that you arent running a "full sized"/current specs machine. Try running Office locally. Or other larger apps. Besides, a screenshot doesnt prove that Firefox is running locally - it just proves Firefox is running on the machine (but can be actually being served by the RD Server) - the screenshot doesnt prove anything either way.
You missed the point anyway... the point is, it's a thin client OS, not a faster version of XP.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
Yeah.. well the linux community stops supporting old hardware too. While the kernel is still quite usable on older machines, the software gets more bloated all the time. KDE and Gnome run like crap on old machines unless you use old versions. Don't believe me? Try installing say redhat 9 vs the latest fedora core on an old PC (say 200-500mhz).
There are reasons this happens. Computer Science departments now teach that memory is cheap. Many software products using RAM for caching which old machines have very little of.
The rule of thumb with OSX is that it will run faster provided you have the RAM. A first generation G4 iBook could run 10.3 with 128-256MB ram. With 10.4, many applications including mail.app would start crashing on that. Many old Macs only have 128-256MB of RAM. Hell my first iMac (400mhz) shipped with 64MB ram. I ran 10.3 on it before I sold it with 512MB of ram and it was fine for basics. So in the apple world you have to buy RAM when an OS is released just as you do in the PC world. Vista requires 512MB+ and modern linux distros require 256MB+ for KDE/Gnome to work with a similar experience. Yes you can run some linux distros on much less, but its not quite right. Remember, Gnome depends on mozilla and a slew of other packages.
At some point, the linux community won't optimize for Apple style PPC chips... IBM will continue to support their hardware. There are differences.
MidnightBSD: The BSD for Everyone
Microsoft really messed up by releasing Vista so early, and by making the hardware requirements so steep. They have two problems. On the consumer front, people just don't see a reason to upgrade. The UI is pretty and you get some under-the-hood improvements, but it's an underwhelming upgrade. The jump from either Me or NT to 2000 was a huge leap as far as reliability went, and XP was a no-brainer because of the many 2000 bugs that it fixed. This time...I'm not so sure.
Eventually, developers will build apps that only run with Vista's new presentation layer and add some value. Most apps are still backward-compatible, however. Vendors know consumers aren't going to necessarily jump to the new operating system right away.
The other side of the problem is corporate customers. Large companies who actually have a handle on their desktop systems are holding off on Microsoft upgrades. Really huge companies are just starting to deploy Office 2003, for example. Smaller companies may be a little more likely to try Vista, simply because that's what came on the boss's Dell when he bought it. Most places are still trying to get IE 7 in place on their existing desktops, which is a huge chore depending on how many web applications you have out there.
Microsoft's not stupid; they realize the show-stopping OS release is over. They've been trying to move people to the subscription model for years. Our company has a "Software Assurance" agreement that has us pay by the year for the MS products we use, and we have the right to choose the versions. From talking to my colleagues at other large companies, most are still trying to get XP rock-solid, just like we are.
If I was a product manager at Microsoft, I would have tried to hold back on releasing Vista until a lot of its new features were finished. Some of the stuff they cut (the new filesystem, etc.) would really have made the case for an upgrade.
Why can M$ make it so that you can pay a little under the cost 2 copies of vista X and get 5 keys or 5 systems one key?
making buy Windows Vista Ultimate and then letting you buy 2 copies of Vista Home Premium for $50 each is not that good of a deal.
I am an IT manager for a local moving company and have been in the computer\networking fields for 26 years. I installed Vista Ultimate on both my home PC's and my work Admin machine, keeping an open mind, of course. I have found that Vista is terribly slow opening networked files and is slower than XP in just about every aspect. As far as Office 2007 is concerned, the "ribbon" is just a pain in the a** and is confusing for my users. WHY does Microsoft continually try to make thigs more "secure" and "easier" for the computer illiterate by making things so difficult for those that are experienced? Needless to say I have uninstalled Vista on ALL my machines and Office 2007 as well. XP and Office 2003 are perfect in every way that I need them to be.... 'nuff said...
XP doesn't even run well sometimes on my 1.6 ghz core duo laptop with 1 gig of ram. Windows 95 (and Linux) ran ok on my 33 mhz 486 with 8mb ram.
There are a number of articles being released today (for example) that suggest Vista has sold 20 million copies in its first month of release. That doesn't sound bad. To put that in perspective, there are around 22 million Mac OS X users total . And *NIX+BSD+Linux has an even smaller desktop share, though it's quite hard to know the exact number (I've heard 10-15 million).
I'm a Mac user, and a Windows user, and a Linux user (since 0.99). I enjoy a good poke at Microsoft's missteps, and the media certainly has jumped on the supposed yawnfest surrounding the Vista launch... but sometimes we need a bit of perspective about how huge they really are, and how successful Vista likely is going to be, despite its warts.
-Stu
I don't think I'll trust Microsoft to do the math for a discount. I recently purchased Vista Home Premium. When I went to find out how much the live (Anytime) upgrade would cost to switch to Ultimate should I ever need to do that I found that it was retailing for $179.99. Now let me see, I bought the Vista Home Premium upgrade for $159.99. The Ultimate Upgrade would have cost me $259.99, a difference of $100.00. But to upgrade it will cost me $179.99.
No thanks MS. I'm gonna have to pass up that great deal.
-- Should there be smoke coming out of my CPU?
So Microsoft is selling a lot of vista licenses.
But how many people are actually buying the vista licenses? I would say most of those licenses came with a computer?
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
Then there was Bob, Clippy, etc. Really amazing stuff...for a two year old with a mental problem. Windows Live(tm) is for the brain dead. Let us not forget Windows ME... or all versions prior to Windows for Workgroups 3.11, not that it was a good OS, but as far as Winblows goes, it was the first version to work even somewhat realiably and provide limited networking capability for home users. NT was largely borrowed/stolen tech from VMS. When you think about it, there is nothing about M$ Winblows that M$ actually invented that is worthwhile. If the antitrust lawyers working for Big Brother ever get their act together and nail the monopolistic M$, it would be fitting for the settlement agreement to specify that M$ do nothing more than make all of its current proprietary code that is in use in products currently on the market (ditto for file formats, and other internal specs/standards) FOS software/standards/specs.
I say that because one would think that since M$ has shitloads of (admittedly mostly lame) programmers who are already familiar with the codebase in question and are theoretically already working on allegedly new products based on it, that M$ would take a big but recoverable hit that it ought to easily work its way back from. I think that even with a huge running start, M$ would lose out against the zillions of talented *nix programmers who would be fixing the problems with current M$ software products and then designing and implementing newer, better, more secure products that the M$ clowns just can't seem to come up with on their own.
Can you imagine what the folks at Apple, Sun, Red Hat, Google, etc. would do if all currently marketed M$ software product source code and standards were suddenly made public domain and very publicly available? We're not talking about a huge financial penalty. A $1 fine would be sufficient, IMHO. We're talking about taking what Microsoft has stuck together using its unfair monopolisitic practices and levelling the playing the field by making it available to everyone. M$ would then have to compete on that now-level field with a huge head start. I think it would stumble around for a couple a years then fall down and go boom.
In short, the best way for the U.S. and/or EU goverments to penalize Microsoft for its long history of unfair, unethical and almost certainly illegal business practices would be to strip it of the rights to the IP of any product it is now or has ever sold and make that IP available to the world. M$ ought to be allowed to keep rights to its trademarks, tradenames, and other non-technical business-related IP stuff. I don't think it would be fair to let true pirates use Microsoft logos, for example, not that such a tactic would be profitable for very much longer.
"You're young, you're drunk, you're in bed, you have knives; shit happens." -- Angelina Jolie
There's a reason why CompUSA is closing it's stores. And it's not because of good prices and qualified tech staff.
I'd say it was because the upgrade train is not bringing in the big bucks promissed. This guy has not said anything about Vista that everyone else is not saying. Vista is not working in any sense of the word.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Oh, after a couple decades, yeah, you might have a slightly harder time finding a distro supporting your old hardware. Your 66MHz Pentium with 8MBs of RAM, however, will still work perfectly with most of the newest distros.
Yes, well, Linux != KDE/Gnome. Most of us are much happier with lightweight window managers, even though our computers could easily handled KDE/Gnome. XFCE and Fluxbox seem to be developing quite a cult following, and the latest version of either will work find on brutally slow hardware... Not to mention the hundreds of other lightweight window managers.
Sure they will. And if they don't, the BSD community certainly will. The _VAX_ port of OpenBSD is still included (and with plenty of 3rd party packages) on the install CDs they sell. I have no doubt NetBSD continues to actively support numerous types even older hardware.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
But a new revision of OS X certainly isn't a "new OS". That's closer to a service pack in the Windows world.
And I wouldn't do so much bragging about OS X. Going from OS9 to OS X sure as hell wasn't a performance improvement.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
"... IBM will continue to support their hardware. "
Through Linux as an active community member as they have been for so long.
Try running a flavor of BSD on any old Mac, it's what OSX is based on. Free Software!
I ran Damn Small Linux on a 486dx with 64MB Ram last year.
Latest Fedora Core 6 on a hp 7855 Desktop 1GHz, 256MB Ram, 128MB nVidia card runs SMOOOOOOOTH
(main machine; 2.8GHz Pentium D 256MB nVidia and spent OS money on 2GB DDR2 SDRAM)
gave bro w/wife, kids 800MHz hp running Xandros
installed Fedora Core 6 on g3 ibook with noticable boost in performance over OSX...on and on...
Steve
I know about it, but it isn't even in beta test yet. It can only run a limited number of Windows applications as well.
Until it runs Worlds of Warcraft and all the expansions, my Gamehead Brother will stick with XP and maybe move to Vista, and so will other Gameheads.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.