Slashdot Mirror
The End for Vonage?
TheRealSCA writes "The latest in Verizon vs. Vonage is in. The judge has basically stopped Vonage from accepting new customers. From the article: 'A judge issued an injunction Friday that effectively bars Internet phone carrier Vonage from signing up new customers as punishment for infringing on patents held by Verizon. Vonage's lawyers said the compromise injunction posted by U.S District Judge Hilton is almost as devastating as an injunction that would have affected Vonage's 2.2 million existing customers. "It's the difference of cutting off oxygen as opposed to the bullet in the head," Vonage lawyer Roger Warin said.'"
Our "intellectual property" system at work for you, ensuring innovation and -- as a nice side effect -- severely restricting competition in the marketplace. Hip Hip Hooray
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Now that Verizon has more-or-less successfully defended their BROAD patents on VoIP stuff, I wonder how long it will be before AT&T/Cingular starts suing ALL of the other phone companies for violating THEIR patents.
I imagine that AT&T owns MANY of the patents on much of the phone technology currently in use. Or at least, owns patents that are "close enough" to successfully sue everybody for infringement.
It's all so crazy. The telecom industry in the US is fucked.
I bet they'll do almost anything to keep a customer since they can't add anymore.
And if I were Verizon, I'd offer a free year of VoiceWing to anyone switching from Vonage.
PWNAGE
Whooo-hooo, wooo hoo-hoo!
Whooo-hooo, wooo hoo-hoo!
Whoo-hoo-hoo, oooh-oooh...oops.
Well at least I can watch TV this weekend without having to watch any more of those annoying Vonage commercials...
Coldmoon over Dark water...
Patent infringement is NEARLY always about one big guy versus another big guy -- or a big guy versus a little guy. How often do patents actually help individuals rather than mega-conglomerates? Even if you have a small business with various patents, can you afford to protect them in court?
Vonage lived by the sword -- they themeselves believed in patents. While I feel this judgment is counter-market, it doesn't cause as much damage as patents do in general. The idea that someone can monopolize the thoughts, motions or creations of another individual is ridiculous, especially in the multitude of patents we all know are ridiculous.
So be it. Whenever anyone who uses patents loses a patent war, they get what they deserve. I feel no pain for Vonage, nor anyone who decides to base their businesses on forcing other businesses not to compete in a certain way.
Rest in pieces, Vonage. Maybe Verizon will be next.
Telecommunications technology just took two gigantic steps backward.
Congratulations, Verizon, I'm dropping you.
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson
I'm a happy Vonage customer. As long as my service is up and running, this doesn't bother me. I'll stick with them for the time being, assuming the company stays solvent.
Now, if I were a Vonage shareholder, I would be freaking out right now...
So you think this wouldn't have happened if Vonage hadn't pursued patents?
Let me add a dose of reality to your delusion. They simply would have been sued out of business sooner.
...you just made my choice a little easier. I'm a happy Vonage customer, and I'm also in the market for a new cellular provider. I can now scratch Verizon off the short list.
Sell all remaining assets and close down. I'd rather the company go up in a huge explosion than have it choke to death from the government backed hands of a competitor. OH! Forget selling assets. Just blow it up!
I bet they'll do almost anything to keep a customer since they can't add anymore.
In the US, at least. There's a world-wide market for this kind of thing however. US patent law isn't and can't be enforced everywhere (thank God!).
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I think this is excellent. Now any company can be prohibited from taking on new customers including Verizon. This is one of the best penalties I've ever seen. It is fair to existing customers. A true Teddy Roosevelt move http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt#Le gacy.
s -selling-solar.html
--
Get solar with technology with expired patents http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
Hmm.. I wonder if this means the return of the secret $5 unlimited inbound plan if you call to cancel. Perhaps I'll just use Vonage for inbound, and someone else for outbound, instead of just porting my number to someone else. Definitely the right time to learn how to unlock my adapters, though. Feel kind of bad for Vonage, though. I wonder who Verizon will sue next?
No SIP for you!!!!
next someone's going to tell me there's a patent for the double click..... oh wait
I have been a happy vonage customer for over a year now, cheap unlimited phone is great. Looks like this could be the start of the end for that. So what is next? Anyone use Skype and like it? Is Skype next to be sued? Could anyone tell me alternative to Vonage other than Skype. I want my cheap phone service damnit!
So where does this leave you if you're handing off your calls over a PRI using a Cisco router (with h323/MGCP) >
Keep in mind that the Markman hearing (to decide what the claim actually covers) adoption of verizon's construction of all the claims means that all of the patents read so broad that things like BIND and SIP infringe -- Add to that court irregularities: no patent case expertise and instead of days, there was only a 30 minute per side argument per side for 48 claims over 7 patents -- and there's a pretty strong case for appeal.
IANAL.
More than a few years ago, the big AT&T was forced to split up to remove a monopoly they had. Well, lets see, now SBC, Bellsouth, Cingular, DishNetwork and probably more I don't know of all fly under that AT&T banner. All reports of Qwest suck, and I have my own hatred for Vonage but it was a choice some found to be good. Where is all my choice going and why isn't someone in the government stopping this? The telecoms are raping the people AGAIN, and although not a monopoly yet, its getting to the point of being one if not something worse. Now that VoIP is being challenged, that could effectively eliminate even more plays like Charter and Comcast.
Some money will get passed around and this will get settled. Corporations don't just fold up shop so a bunch of Perl chimps can feel more righteous about their silly notions of "innovation".
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I just went to http://www.vonage.com/ and it seems they are still taking orders. I went all the way to where they asked for my info. Maybe it would have bombed at that point.
. . . because I can still sign up for service via the Vonage website.
Launch every sig.
I think that Verizon is going to become a lot more interested in negociating with Vonage after this ruling. Why? Because if Vonage goes bankrupt, Verizon is likely to get squat in bankruptcy court. They don't have a lot of physical assets. They have a customer base - a loyal one. How many Vonage customers, having already switched from an RBOC, are going to switch BACK voluntarily?
Verizon viewed this as a way to get a piece of a growing market without having to invest anything. tey were going to use the patent to force Vonage to charge a "Verizon Tax" on their customers, which would make the service less attractive to users and maybe send somefolks back to the RBOC's - not to mention the fat licensing fees. But the judge may have killed the goose that lays the golden eggs.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
disclaimer: I used to work for a company that provided VoIP equipment...
There's a whole shitload of VoIP providers out there. Most of them employ people with the technical ability of a rotted stump and will mis-route your 911 calls. It's a business plan that attracts venture capital but nobody who actually runs one of these places has more than a dozen brain cells. They want ATAs drop shipped to customers so they don't have to hold stock, they can't read an Ethereal (Wireshark, whatever) dump, etc. Vonage was the best of a bad lot, IMO.
Unless you do a lot of international calling, just keep your cell phone or pay for a land line. If you need international, Skype really is pretty good.
(to the tune of, woo woo, wo woo woo, from the vonage commercial)
woo woo, we got sued!!!
woo woo, we got sued!!!
woo woo, we got sued!!!
woo woo, woo woo,
woo woo, we got sued!!!
Bye Bye!
"It's the difference of cutting off oxygen as opposed to the bullet in the head," Vonage lawyer Roger Warin
cutting off the oxygen supply has long been a term used by management to describe a method of dealing with competition.
gun to the head references are more often used by unions (buzz hargrove comes to mind)
Especially if Vonage will stop their advertising cash fountain.
Given how much they spend to get each new customer and how much they throw away at pop-up/banner/tv ads, this would be a good thing. And if they manage to concentrate on making things more efficient there is a hope of break-even state. Which would make them an attractive acquisition target for anyone who wants to add to customer base.
Hyperom.com
That decision seems questionably legal... Any lawyers around to explain this more thoroughly??
If the US Constitution supposedly protects the rights of non-citizens then I don't see why our laws don't apply in other countries as well.
This could be not only the end of Vonage, but also the end of Asterisk, Skype and VoIP in general. I am not a Vonage customer and do not plan to be, as I prefer using Asterisk and small termination providers, which is much cheaper than Vonage. However, I think anyone interested in the success of VoIP should help Vonage win this fight, either by contributing money to their defense or protesting the decision to the Government. Letting Verizon get away with it would set us back 20 years or so until the patents expire.
I also wonder what will happen with all the hardware currently in stores that is set up to connect to Vonage. This may be a nightmare for stores and their unaware customers. I think they judge did not consider all the unintended consequences of his decision.
FTA: "The judge has basically stopped Vonage from accepting new customers."
But I can still go to their website and sign-up
They are still taking customers on. I just went to the site and was able to sign up. I never completed, I stopped short of hitting submit on my cc #. It seems it would only take a phone call to stop the server from taking on new customers. I obviously don't use vonage but I hope they stay in business discount services are a good thing. I know quite a few people who wouldn't have a phone if it weren't for vonage.
WTF?
I think pretty much everyone on Slashdot agrees that software patents are a bad idea. However, isn't part of this about technology/concept patents that aren't software related? Another article mentions patents "that describe technology for completing phone calls between VoIP users and people using phones on the traditional public switched network, authenticating VoIP callers, validating VoIP callers' accounts, fraud protection, providing enhanced features, using Wi-Fi handsets with VoIP services and monitoring VoIP caller usage."
To me, a few of those things are definitely software, but others are almost definitely hardware or mixed hardware/software patents. Personally, I've got nothing wrong with non-software patents, since they allow people to make money off their inventions for a while without having to worry about knockoffs of their product. If I were an inventor and came up with some device (say it ties into another system using custom software to keep this parallel), I'd sure as hell want my patent to allow me to make some money before Big Company X was able to make a similar product for less than I can make it for.
Exclude those software patents from this lawsuit, and I really don't have an issue with it, except that my Vonage bill may go up at some point (still cheaper than TWC Digital Phone).
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
If Vonage customers think that Verizon is going to simply send you a card to become a Verizon customer you are wrong. Verizon doesn't want those Vonage customers, they want their own. And even if they did they wouldn't make it any easier to switch than any other shmoe off the street. THAT's the point of oligopoly. IF Vonage dies than most of those customers will switch to old style copper wire phone. Phone companies don't care who DOESN'T have service, they only care about the service people have from other carriers.
Let's see, Vonage builds ... nothing and sells little boxes to people to connect to their Internet connection. This then connects to a couple of termination sites that either connect to other Vonage customers (maybe) or just dumps the call out on the standard telephone network.
Yes, individual calls out cost them something, but that infrastructure is built and maintained by the other companies. Generally, by the people too dumb to have switched away to Vonage and their VOIP ilk.
The problem is that Vonage is 100% dependent on the telephone network they are competing with. They are selling a service which requires their competitor to operate. This is generally a bad business model, except it can generate extremely high profits for a short period of time. Vonage can't put Verizon out of business as it would eliminate their ability to operate.
Of course having a leech syphoning off the high-value residential customers does nothing but piss Verizon, AT&T and others off. This has been coming for a long time and it isn't over yet. I would guess some telecom company finds some way to put every one of the leeching VOIP services like Vonage and Lingo out of business soon.
So, let's play this game - we'll even name it something like China. You the player spend oh 5 years researching and creatnig some neato' keen scientificly designed product but you don't Patent it because well you just don't roll that way. So you bring this thing to market and it's really kewl but it's kind of expensive because afterall you have all those years of R&D to pay for and a family to feed. 2 months after having released your neato' keen device to market sales sharply drop. Gee, why is that? Oh wait, someone else is playing the game too. Only they are playing it a little different. Seems they were one of your very first customers only instead of using your product they took it apart, duplicated the pieces, and are now making them too - for 1/4 your asking price. They paid nothing for R&D other than the time spent reversing your product and because they have no R&D tail to pay for they aren't deep in the red like you were when you started. No patent so you have no way to fight them - now what? Two months is actually not a crazy estimate either BTW, hell these days you're likely to hand them the plans to manufacture your precious widget anyway. 5mins after the plans hit their desk they are being duped. Worse they might even run the production line double time - you get the products built during the day, they sell the products they built at night. Whoops, how do you fix that exactly? Think this through....
The patent system right now SUX, I'll grant that. However it doesn't suck because the idea is completely bad it sucks because the patent office grants overly broad patents and because we have a judicial branch running amuck making decisions on technology they barely understand. Dumping the patent system while nice in fantasy land isn't going to necessarily mean that it will make things better. China, and other countries, are copying products with little to no R&D like mad and undercutting the real companies making these products. The result is that some of the companies are losing their ass due to R&D costs - what you propose, nuking the patent system, would allow this with no penalty. You sure that's what you want?
Oh and yes people invented things before patents. Then they VERY closely held onto that information for fear that others would benefit from it if it was shared with anyone other than maybe an apprentice. They didn't simply tell every Tom, Dick, and Harry, who wandered by how to do the thing that allowed them to make a living I promise you. There also wasn't this huge global information system that would allow the information to spread like wildfire.
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
When I was looking to see what to do about a phone last year, it looked like Vonage's quarterly losses were identical to their quarterly budget for advertising. If they can stem the tide of people leaving and cut their advertising budget, maybe that brings them close to a break-even. On the other hand, I'd be foolish not to look into their competition and figure out how to hedge my bets in case they circle the drain.
My time for taking Vonage seriously is certainly coming to a middle.
I'm surprised no one has posted this question yet: how will this legal battle affect other, smaller VoIP providers? I get my VoIP service from my regional ISP, and I'm very happy with it. They deliver a completely unlocked SIP service to me, and my Asterisk server uses it for outside calls. Will the Vonage patent-wielding kill my local VoIP provider too?
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
I'm tired of their commercial and the absence of any QOS is stupid. I hope they go down quick so that irritating shit gets off the air and I don't have to mute my TV when it comes on.
We are one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. Back to you with the weather, Bob!
Vonage has until 4/12/07 before the new injunction takes effect. (The new injunction barring new customers which replaced the old injunction that would have shut Vonage down today if it had been implemented.)
I have as much contempt for Verizon as I do the RIAA. There method is not to compete the competition out of business, instead it's to sue them out of business. I will never deal with verizon or any of there subsidiaries. I have packet8 which is aswome, but if I had vonage I would cancel just so verizon, couldn't sue my money away from them.
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
Okay! Looks like Vonage will merge with Verizon to cover up the so called patent infrigement? Think about it, Vonage's current 22 happy million customers with 3/4 less the overhead of verizon's workforce. Hmmm! that lot's of money and the easiest way to gobble it up legally is to look for ways in our current patent system. That said here is a possible outcome to the ordeal, Verizon will buyout Vonage for a couple of millions of dollars, Vonage shareholders get rich and we the customers will pay for it. How, simple verizon will jack up the prices for Voip and not much options will be left. Someone mentioned that pretty soon we will see other lawsuits by other carriers like AT&T, etc towards smaller carriers that have done the initial leg work, Since the acceptance of voip is gaining popularity and reliability, it's time for the Big Mama bells to come in and gooble up the small companies that provide competition to them in the voip market, So that they can increase monthly prices and lousy customer service.
O_ó
"If the US Constitution supposedly protects the rights of non-citizens then I don't see why our laws don't apply in other countries as well." Wha?
BTW, protecting the rights of non-citizens is as old as the Torah.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
As a Philadelphia Verizon customer (cell/DSL) with Vonage for home phone [Vonage doesn't publish their phone registration records to telemarketers plus the long distance benefits are amazing]....
I am really caught between two nasty options. Ditch Verizon and hope I can get by with radio wifi (Philadelphia has Earthlink wireless), or allow Vonage to die and make other arrangements.
I like both companies, but I can't believe Verizon "invented" anything concerning VoIP... and was just granted a rubber stamp patent... which it is wielding to shut down a thorn in their side competitor from New Jersey.
Considering I live in a high rise tower and I see at least 10 unsecured WAPs... I could switch to AT&T wireless, drop Verizon, and use free Internet and pay a lot less money to the Verizon monopoly that controls most of the Northeast.
They can? Yes! I just became a Vonage reseller!
This is old news and effectively a dupe. More importantly, Slashdot announced that the two companies made up with Vonage paying the royalty. This nullifies the injunction, as the patent holder has that authority. I mean, the injunction is for the holder's benefit, and can be waived. In this case, it has because of licensing. Guess the editors weren't paying attention.
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
"People do stupid things" Boo-hoo, boo, hoo-hooooo. Someone has to do a Video with a Vonage representative and some lawyers. You can't tell me they didn't do a patent investigation before they started the company. Which ever lawyer gave them the freedom to operate after doing the research is fried. Nothing like a angry mob of vonage users and workers chasing after the doofus who missed this. Unless its a nasty case of broad claims, doesn't sound like it based on the injunction, but I don't claim to know anything about the claims in the patents. Anyways, someone has to do a video on this, it'd be tooo funny.
Almost want to say they deserve it, but won't quite go that far all I can share is my experience with Vontage and how this is no surprise. I had Vontage for a year and had very little problems with them, until I wanted to cancel my account. Perhaps this is a demonstration or indicative of there business attitude, philosophy and practices that travels all the way down there organization.
To share my experience this is what I posted on another Vontage blog for people that have had numerous problems with Vontage.
I have similar story, but have found little on what you can actually do to cancel the account?
Other than go through the trouble they put you through and from many of the post it actually may not work.
Anyone know?
I signed up almost a year ago actually Apr 2 2006 and today I wanted to cancel it. I was informed to my surprise I would be assessed a 39.99 charge to do that. I did not recall seeing that notification when I signed up. It was advertised as hassle free no contracts. But after looking at the Terms of Agreement it does say if cancelled before 1 year you get charged a fee.
I informed the rep I want to cancel it then on that day the Apr 2nd 2007 so I not get a fee she told me she could not do that. And instead launched into a high pressure sales tactic to switch my plan at the end of my billing cycle the Apr 2, 2007 date to a 2 month free then charged 9.99 for 100 minute plan each month instead.
I asked her to speak to someone else that could help me she told me that she would not transfer me and she was not going to escalate the call any further. She then told me after the free months if I still wanted to cancel I could and would not incur a charge for cancelling my account and to just try and see if it worked better for me.
Another point she kept hounding me as to way I wanted to cancel. I do not consider that any of Vontages business. I am the customer if I want to cancel I should be able to with out being badgered. I did not want to tell her that I was cancelling because my house caught on fire and I lost everything including my father to the fire. I have almost nothing and am staying with relatives temporally and that I simply could not afford to have Vontage anymore. I just did not want to bring that up or think about it. But I was being forced to relive the whole thing just to justify to her why I wanted to cancel when it was really none of her business.
So apparently she has made a change to my account that I am going to get the first 2 months free because in her words they are helping me. And then be charge the 9.99 a month after. The point for me is I don't want Vontage anymore I just wanted to cancel the account. And if I was literally 3 days shy from the 1 year agreement, how hard and uncompassionate is that? She simply could have told me to call back or that she scheduled it to be cancelled on the 1 year mark. Instead I was badgered and subjected to strong arm tactics to keep me on Vontage.
And for me I actually liked Vontage. I had very few connection problems. I thought after I was well and better on my feet I would subscribe again to Vontage because I liked it so much. I told her this at the beginning of the call and she thanked me then preceded to badger me about why I wanted to cancel.
It turns out one day after my end date they attempted to charge my account again. Even though the CS rep told me there would be no charge for two months. She lied.
I beg to differ:
While the first aluminum cans were noticeably easier to open than steel ones, a separate opener was still required. This was an inconvenience, especially when there was plenty of beer but no church key at the family picnic. It was in such a situation that Ermal Fraze of Dayton, Ohio, found himself in 1959, when he resorted to using a car bumper to open a can. The operation evidently yielded more foam than refreshment, and Fraze is reported to have said that there must be a better way. On a subsequent night, unable to sleep after drinking too much coffee, he went to his basement workshop to tinker with the idea of attaching an opening lever to a can. He was hoping the activity would make him drowsy, but instead "I was up all night and it came to me--just like that. It was all there. I knew how to do it so it would be commercially feasible." Fraze could make such a judgment because he was the owner of the Dayton Reliable Tool and Manufacturing Company, and he had considerable experience with metal forming and scoring, the mastery of which would be essential to developing the pop-top can, for which he obtained the first patent in 1963. "I personally did not invent the easy-open can end," he later asserted. "People have been working on that since 1800. What I did was develop a method of attaching a tab on the can top."
Eventually a ring, which functioned as a lever, was riveted to a pre-scored tear strip. A pull at the ring broke the can's seal and then lifted the attached strip of metal out of the can top along the scored outline. The hole that was left extended a good distance from the edge of the can to (or beyond) the center, and so as the can was tipped for pouring or drinking, air could enter the top of the hole and allow the easy, gurgle-free exit of the contents. The early pop-top or pop-tab worked reasonably well, not only eliminating the need for a church key but also replacing with one smooth motion the action of punching two separate triangular holes. Still, scoring a tear strip in a can top so that it will be easy enough to remove yet strong enough to hold against the internal pressure requires some rather tricky engineering. Some early pull tabs were blown off prematurely by the high pressure of the carbonation rushing out after a consumer's initial cracking of the tear strip, so Fraze and other inventors came up with schemes to benignly direct the first whoosh of escaping gas away from the tab itself. Throughout the mid-1960s numerous patents were awarded for improvements in pull-tab devices. Then a new problem arose: environmental pollution.
By the mid-1970s those tabs that pulled completely off the can top were coming under increasing attack from environmentalists, and with good reason. 1 recall stopping at traffic lights in those days and trying to count up all the pull tabs (by then looking like little curledup tongues on key rings) among the cigarette butts beside the road. I could never finish counting before the light changed. Picnic sites and beaches were disastrously prone to the sharp litter, which was especially difficult to clean up because the small tabs passed easily through the tines of rakes. Animals, fish, and children were swallowing the tabs, and bathers were cutting their feet on them. Some conscientious people would drop the tab into the can after opening it; and some of them required operations when they swallowed the tab with their drink. In short, there was growing concern over the failure of the pull tab to function as well as desired in that regard, and this led to another rash of patent applications for easy-open cans without removable tabs. Form Follows Failure
What will happen to the other VoiP providers? I am primarily thinking of http://www.sunrocket.com/ and http://www.viatalk.com/. Are they not also infringing upon the Verizon patents?
I'm not going back to a landline, and don't own a cellphone. Any thoughts on where I can turn for phone service? Obviously, Verizon is not an option, and my cable provider is stupidly expensive...
it's just a matter of who gets into the playground.
if you go along to get along, crosslicensing your patents, you're able to fight with the ciscos and Avayas and the bellcos.
otherwise, don't figure you're going to bring a shiny new knife to the gunfight and win.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
We are a midsize integrator in GA. We are responsible for over 400 Small business in the state of georgia using verizon service. We had no idea that this is the way they stifle competition. We will not be a party to desired monopoly as this only ruins our customers choices and drive up prices. I would like to point out to the powers at Verizon that this is absolutley not acceptable and we will refrain from this point on recommending Verizon to anyone. We will actively seek to migrate all our customers away from Verizon as soon as their respective contracts are up for renewal.
As a Canadian Vonage user, my interest in this case is going to be how it affects me -- but nobody seems to be talking about what might happen to the Canadian (or UK) subsidiaries should Vonage US go down.
It appears that Vonage Canada (and presumably UK) is a wholly-owned, seperate company, and isn't directly constrained by the patent suit (as Verizon has no Canadian presence or patents). However, it is my understanding that Vonage Canada relies pretty heavily on the Vonage US network for call routing (although it is also my understanding that it has been gaining a bit more independence in the past year).
So what happens if Vonage US goes into receivership? Presumably holdings like Vonage Canada and Vonage UK will go on sale. I suspect Vonage Canada's call quality might suffer if they don't put contingency plans in place now, but that if they can stave off the loss of customers due to the US network folding, it could potentially survive (in which case, the 4 Vonage lines I have in my home, and the Vonage lines family and friends have thanks to my recommendation could keep working). But then again, if Vonage Canada isn't all that profitable (I have no idea if they are or not), they could fold up as well.
For now I'm waiting it out, but if anyone has any better info on what could be expected for the Canadian and UK subsidiaries, I'd certainly be interested in learning more.
Yaz.
Let's examine this:
- it's for sale to large corporations (see RIAA, MPAA, DCMA, etc.)
- there is no punishment to abusing the system (see SCO v IBM)
- the concept of "prior art" and "obvious" has disappeared (see overbroad patents lawsuits)
- add your own...
Yes, I'm a cynic.
Otherwise, Verizon will never, ever get any of my business. If they work to cut off my Vonage service--something that keeps my business costs down--I will make sure to avoid them at all costs and to counsel every business with which I work to do the same. It's one thing to defend a patent; it's another to destroy another company, to throw many people out of work, and to cause severe hardship to many customers. Verizon should set up a favorable license, so that they can get their cut. But it should not kill Vonage in the process.
Work out some licensing deal, Vonage and Verizon. Why? Because, in the end, it's the right thing to do.
...tizzyd
1. Verizon wins outright, tells Vonage to stuff it and they go bankrupt. Service ends after a notification period. Bad for Vonage, bad for customers, black-eye for Verizon.
2. The "strangle" continues through the long appeal process. Vonage reaches a point of being non-viable even if they can engineer around the patents. Verizon "buys" them as part of an out-of-court settlement and continues the business (possibly with rate increases or tie-ins with their cell business.
3. Vonage can reengineer around the patents in time to survive, but will struggle due to the judgement costs (infringement) anyway. They eventually are bought out.
I don't think #1 is likely since Verizon wouldn't really gain much. #2 and #3 are more likely. Option 4 being Vonage reengineers quickly and somehow wins the appeal seems a bit remote at this point...
Of course having a leech syphoning off the high-value residential customers does nothing but piss Verizon, AT&T and others off.
That's funny, as a "high-value residentail customer" I think of Verizon, AT&T and others as government dependent leeches. I'd love to see some real competition in infrastructure and I'm tired of government being the barrier to that. US infrastructure is no longer the world's best, despite great spending by people such as myself.
This will continue into the future as long as government auctions bandwith and telco access to the highest bidders without reciprocal obligations. Liberating bandwith and access or forcing co-operation could fix things. Sucking taxes from monopolies does not.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
You are smoking crack.
They've demonstrated that you can do telephony over cheap packet switched networks like the internet for a tiny fraction of the costs of the incumbent telecoms. Not that that was a shocker. Those stupendously greedy assholes at the old school telecom companies have been price gouging so bad they've even intermittently attracted federal regulation. And we know how hard that is to do.
Voip providers don't need the telecoms. As old-line telecom customers switch to Voip, then usage of bridges to the old line telecom network declines to zero. Data is carried according to the (slightly less rigged) internet pricing model. Everyone saves a fuckload of money and the economy grows. End of story.
(P.S. - there's no "maybe" - that's why vonage-to-vonage calls are already free for vonage customers. Vonage users are largely paying - being price gouged, technically - for the use of the telecom bridge, for as long as it lasts. Once that goes, then prices drop even further, to the actual value of carrying a few kilobits a second...)
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
The only people that I have ever seen highly supportive of patents in general are patent attorneys and perhaps patent examiners. This is their bread and butter, so they have to at least believe somehow that the idea is useful.
For myself, I see absolutely no redeeming value to the current patent system at all, and nearly any fix to try and improve things is as likely to make things worse as it is to make any reasonable progress in helping out.
I have offered this challenge before, but I am serious here: Can you find even one tinkerer who has played around in their "garage", is not a lawyer or has not teamed up with lawyers as a part of a business plan, patented something, and have actually made money off of their invention due to the patent? I'm talking mainly in the last 10 years or so, even if you can find some traditional examples like Edison (who is more the archtype of corporate America than the garage inventor).
Far, far too many patents are issued to some dreamer who tries to patent his idea, only to see thousands of dollars go into the patent search and legal fees, and the only person who made any money off of the process was his patent attorney. Or the book publishers and "inventor" groups and conventions who push this crazy idea that you can actually make money this way. There is a whole industry of people trying to suck up hope and money from these dreamers, where only a very few even break even once they actually sell their idea.
In the real world, companies do not buy patents for the purpose of manufacturing something cool or innovative. They buy them (or encourage their employees to file for them) mainly as a way to avoid getting sued by their competitors in a manner that Vontage here is getting screwed over. Had Vontage been smart several years ago, they would have been building up a suite of patents about their service and covering things that their employees had actually come up with over time, slowing building up insulation against these sort of florid legal attacks.
If they had been able to build up such a suite of patents, they would have been able to counter-sue Verizon and forced this whole thing into a cross-license patent settlement. Perhaps some money would have exchanged, but it would have been pretty quite. Esentially just like what happened between Microsoft and Novell. There might have been some head scratching by outside observers, but neither company would have gone down in flames.
I find this utter BS that this situation even exists at all, but it is unfortunately a part of the reality of the modern business world. Software and business method patents are all the more ways to screw you over, but even patents for what is arguably mechanical engineering are just as bad in most instances.
It amazes me that a couple people corrected this guy on the spelling of "Vonage," yet not one person commented that the correct phrase (you know, the one in the subject line) should read: "You reap what you sow." You sow seeds (and then reap the crop when it's harvest time). You sew clothes.
woo hoo
woo hoo hoo
woo hoo
woo hoo hoo
The Judge is way out of line with that ruling. Theres a difference between punishment and wiping something out.
Support your local school shooter, give them your firearms.
Patents are not a bad idea for all cases. The idea of patents was to provide an incentive to inventors to register their ideas so that their inventions (as in how to build hardware) never get lost. When dealing with pure software, patents are bad because software just boils down to algorithms. Patents are great for hardware. When dealing with software/hardware hybrids (like DVRs), only the hardware should be patentable. For medicine, the drug industry would collapse without patents because researching new drugs and testing them could be prohobitively expensive without the time the patent grants to recoup the costs.
Without patents, inventors would keep the method for producing their works as trade secrets, which would be worse than granting them a government-enforced monopoly if their ideas never get leaked. For example, if the method for making Damascus steel was patented, it probably would not have been lost. Since the idea of patents did not exist during that time, the people who knew how to do the job kept it as a trade secret that they eventually took to their graves without passing their ideas on to their descendants, depriving the world on how to make Damascus steel. Only recently did we learn that Damascus steel required vanadium. I believe the researchers who discovered this were able to patent their reinvention of Damascus steel because all prior art (which are directions on how to implement the process) were considered lost and therefore could not be presented to refute the patent application.
Ironically, the software patent process, while horribly broken and should be abolished, might have saved the algorithm of low density parity check (LDPC) codes from obscurity. When it was first published in the 1960s, we did not have enough computing power to implement them, and the algorithm was rejected on those grounds. After France Telecom patented turbo codes which allowed data rates to approach the theoretical Shannon limit (using a hybrid software/hardware or pure hardware approach because this method requires modification to the hardware to even be used), other engineers searched for other methods to approach the Shannon limit as well. One of them found either the expired LDPC code patent in the U.S. patent database or the LDPC research paper in some old IEEE publication, and now LDPC codes are now a serious and public domain competitor to turbo codes. One more advantage to LDPC codes is that they can be retrofitted onto existing hardware with processors with plenty of spare processing power (e.g. modern PCs) because the algorithm could be implemented entirely in software.
Our laws (at least most of them) do apply to non-citizens in our country.
Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
According to this article on the http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2007/04/06/AR2007040601088.html Post's website, Verizon seems to think Vonage's customers are "rightly theirs". Funny, I don't recall signing up for Verizon. I can't argue that this is wrong, however. Verizon is a corporate entity. If it can legally kill a competitor, it will do it, in the name of competition no less.
I don't have an issue with them defending a trademark or patent, and Vonage put itself in the position when all it probably had to do was reverse engineer/partner with/absorb another solution in order to head this off. I'm sure though that I'll find a VoIP carrier that will satisfy my needs
Don't get me wrong, Verizon just guaranteed they won't get my money, and my memory is quite long when I commit to not purchasing someone's product.
Blacker than my baby girl's stare. Black like the veil that the muslimina wear. Black like the planet that they fear...
"It's the difference of cutting off oxygen as opposed to the bullet in the head," Vonage lawyer Roger Warin said.'"
Note to self. If you find youself running an imperiled publicly-traded company, do not retain this loudmouth as legal counsel.
US patent law isn't and can't be enforced everywhere, yet (thank God!)
I have had Vonage (Canada) for about a year, and up until today it has been pretty darn good. Can't beat the features/price with any other carrier up here.
Now, today of all days, my ATA won't connect... So I have to call support... Oh my. It must be bedlam over there, because after 5 calls, and over 2 hours on my cell phone, I could NOT get through to tech support. I can reach a human every time, but they can never assist me, and queue me up in a never-ending wait....
I guess it's time to make the jump to Packet8 or some other Voip supplier before the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. It may not be Verizon that kills them, but the stampede of their own customers panicing....
Brad
Vonage is not going anywhere. I read somewhere that they have enough cash on hand to stay in business for at least two years with no problem even when paying for the sanctions and future royalties. Obviously, this presents a major problem for them but I don't expect them to disappear overnight either.
Packet8 and Sunrocket do look like viable alternatives though, should that time come. I have been a satisfied Vonage customer for about three years now and I am not about to go back to non-voip phone service.
Disclaimer: I have family and friends who work at Vonage.
Vonage Receives Temporary Stay In Verizon Patent Litigation, Continues to Sell Service
/PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX News Network/ -- Vonage today secured a temporary stay from U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington, DC. The stay enables Vonage to continue to sign up new customers until the Appellate court can hear Vonage's request for a permanent stay. The Court's ruling allows Vonage to continue to provide phone service to existing customers.
HOLMDEL, N.J., April 6, 2007
Earlier today the U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Va. indicated it would enter an injunction against Vonage effective April 12, 2007 in connection with certain Verizon technology on which it was found to be infringing. The Court indicated that Vonage would be barred from acquiring new customers during its appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington, D.C. In response, Vonage filed for and received an emergency stay of the injunction from the Federal Circuit.
About Vonage
Vonage (NYSE: VG) is a leading provider of broadband telephone services with over 2.2 million subscriber lines. Our award-winning technology enables anyone to make and receive phone calls with a touch tone telephone almost anywhere a broadband Internet connection is available. We offer feature-rich and cost-effective communication services that offer users an experience similar to traditional telephone services.
Our Residential Premium Unlimited and Small Business Unlimited calling plans offer consumers unlimited local and long distance calling, and popular features like call waiting, call forwarding and voicemail -- for one low, flat monthly rate. Vonage's service is sold on the web and through national retailers including Best Buy, Circuit City, Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and Target and is available to customers in the U.S., Canada and the United Kingdom. For more information about Vonage's products and services, please visit http://www.vonage.com./
Vonage Holdings Corp. is headquartered in Holmdel, New Jersey. Vonage(tm) is a registered trademark of Vonage Marketing Inc., a subsidiary of Vonage Holdings Corp.
Vg-f
SOURCE Vonage
Brooke Schulz of Vonage, +1-732-528-2627, brooke.schulz@vonage.com; or Nick Kalm of
Reputation Partners, +1-312-222- 9888, nick@reputationpartners.com
http://www.vonage.com/
If the US Constitution supposedly protects the rights of non-citizens then I don't see why our laws don't apply in other countries as well.
Are you serious? Following that logic, why shouldn't another country's laws apply in the US, then? Welcome to Sharia, biatch. I hope you prayed today.
If you travel to another country you are subject to that country's laws while in their territory. The laws of your country do not apply when you are there. So yes, you can drink at 16 or 18 or whatever the local drinking age is, despite the legal age being 21 in the US. Commit a crime in that country (even if it's not a crime in the US) and you go to jail.
When you leave that country, you are no longer subject to their law.
The US is the only country in the world that believes their citizens must obey US law wherever they are - especially that part that deals with income tax. You have to pay your taxes to Uncle Sam wherever you are. Well good for you guys, I say. But leave the rest of us alone.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I've had enough of their abuse.
I have tried for more than a year to cancel my account. They refused endlessly. Never even once responded to any emails, nor certified letters to their corporate HQ stating they are no longer authorized to use my credit card or SSN. I could get a hold of tech support in a reasonable amount of time, but they could not cancel the account. They had to forward me to the account retention department which meant hours on hold and endless arguing until I get hung-up on.
They suck as bad or worse than AOL in this area and I can't wait to see them out of business.
there was an anti-child prostitution law passed a few years back which made it a crime for a US citizen to have sex with a minor in a foreign country, even if it was legal to do so in said foreign country. No idea if it was ever challenged.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
As CNET and others are reporting, an Federal Appeals Court has issued a ruling allowing Vonage to continue adding new customers, at least until they get to hear further arguments. So, while all this can't be good for Vonage, they are at least allowed to go after new customers for now. Whether that will prove easy in the current climate is a different question.
FWIW, I am a very satisfied Vonage customer and also a moderately satisfied Verizon Wireless customer. Like some other commentators on this list, Verizon's actions in this case make me significantly less likely to renew my contract with them when the time comes. Now if Verizon were using those patents of theirs to offer a better and more economical VOIP service, that would be interesting to me as a customer. Just getting questionnably broad patents and using them to prevent others from providing valuable service does not make me a happy customer.
partly...
Vonage: Appeals court says we can continue to sign up customers
http://news.com.com/2061-10804_3-6174148.html
"Vonage said late Friday that a federal appeals court has temporarily lifted an injunction granted earlier in the day that prohibited the Internet phone company from adding new customers."
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
If Verizon has the patents that effectively end the VoIP revolution, it will mean dramatically higher telecommunications costs. This could well drive the much needed patent reform we have all been dreaming about for a long time. Remember, in history very few societies have industrialized without land reform that brought real estate ownership from the elite to the middle classes. I would like to hazard a guess that the information age will not really take off until the ownership of intellectual property shifts from being controlled by the elite to being controlled by the middle classes.
As a Mac user, I consistently see innovative small software companies introduce new features to the platform, with Apple eventually introducing a less effective clone into the OS. See the MissingSync, Watson, etc. over the years. A small developer cannot really win an IP lawsuit against a big company. Once this changes you will see a flowering of innovation across the world, although quite possibly less open source software.
"...What is good for General Motors is good for America." -Charles Wilson, Secretary of Defense and fmr President of GM
The problem with the telcom industry is that the government (at all levels this time) has over expanded its bounds and decided that the telcom market needs to be regulated. When the government gets involved in anything, the result is usually negative. This is why I am a Libertarian voting for small limited government, individual liberties, and personal freedoms.
Libertas in infinitum
What the subject says...
I don't know if you're aware of this but the purpose of advertising is to increase revenue by attracting new business.
Wooo hooo woo hoo hoo!
turn off your vonage thingy and your cable modem for 30s+ and restart it. I had the same problem today, first problem I ever had.
Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!
http://financialpetition.org/