Zune Team Getting Amnesty for iPod Use

MsManhattan writes "The Zune development team at Microsoft is apparently offering amnesty to employees who give up their iPods in favor of using the Zune MP3 player. An MSNBC employee has posted a photo on Flickr of the company's 'iPod Amnesty Bin,' which sports an image of a bitten green apple and the words 'Bite me.' Whether it's to be taken seriously or is a joke to boost employee morale is anyone's guess, and naturally no one at Microsoft was available for comment. From what can be seen in the photo, only a few early-model iPods have been deposited."

Comments

new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[yagu]

I saw the new ad by Microsoft (on American Idol, at least they're finally picking a demographic):

Still, Microsoft is ramping up its marketing efforts around Zune in the hopes it can drum up interest in the device. The company released a pink Zune earlier this month that is outselling Zunes in white and brown, according to the company, and also launched a new print advertising campaign to promote the pink Zune called "Sync Pink." Microsoft also introduced a new TV commercial that highlights the features of Zune that differentiate it from the iPod, such as wireless sharing and the FM radio tuner.

I asked my wife to view the ad (tivo), as I suspected the "uploading one song" (tune?, track?, can't remember) on one Zune screen, and the "downloading one song" on the screen of a Zune behind the first did not convey the "sharing" notion. Sure enough, when asked, she said "of course" she understood -- it was demonstrating how a Zune could upload and download music from the computer wirelessly (something I don't even think it really is capable of).

I explained what it really demonstrated, and she thought that was kind of cool, but I told her she'd have to

• encounter a fellow Zuner within fifty feet of her (unlikely)
• could only play the shared tune 3 times OR
• within 3 days, whichever came first
• live with drm encumbered music

All of which she says (said) "ewwwwww!" to, and not in a good way. Zune is hardly a product that lights a fire under any consumers' desires.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[rucs_hack]

Well some people might buy one based on the adverts, but they likely wouldn't buy again.

Especially given microsofts constant habit of forcing uupgrades.

Apple do constant upgrades too, but my trusty old generation 3 iPod is still going strong in linux via Amarok. It works with the latest iTunes software too, but that's frankly not a very good peice of software, so I don't use it.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[soupd]

And anybody who bought into Microsoft's 'Plays For Sure' DRM, which Zune doesn't support, is surely going to think twice before picking a Zune over an iPod.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[fistfullast33l]

All of which she says (said) "ewwwwww!" to, and not in a good way

Does anyone ever say ewwww in a good way?

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Mockylock]

Only when followed by "HOLY SHIT, I think I'm going to vomit."

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[iago-vL]

Usually when I'm getting undressed. At least, I assume it's a good way...

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[a_nonamiss]

OOOOOOOooooooooo!

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[malsdavis]

...not that Apple are really much better when it comes to the whole DRM issue. Not to mention the whole iTunes lock-in issue which I really don't understand how they are still getting past the competition regulators with. Particularly here in Europe where regulators are normally quite strict about that sort of thing (as Microsoft can vouch for!).

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[rhartness]

You have 'Ahhh...' when you say it. From the back of the throat.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

Hm...DRM? DRM added to stuff I legally own? Really shitty wireless capability? Can copy music back to any machine that is running Windows (please prove to me that there is easily available and GOOD software for MAC or Linux). I am glad you like your Zune. MY family has three reliable iPods (and I know about 30-50 people with them) and none of us have had problems with them, from any generation.

I hope you enjoy your Microsoft check too? BTW, people still listen to the radio?

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

But it's PINK!!!

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[slashwritr]

This was a a pretty creepy commercial--it reminded me of a cemetery, with Zunes as headstones. Everything's quiet...and then it turns into Night of the Living Dead.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[soupd]

Well I don't think you'll find anybody here who views DRM as anything less than evil, however as of yet Apple have yet to arbitrarily drop support for it's FairPlay DRM system, Microsoft actually did this with the Zune by ignoring it's earlier DRM mechanism.

Further to this, Apple's FairPlay2 (the current implementation of it's iTunes DRM) really doesn't cause me any problems, there are multi-platform tools to remove the FairPlay2 DRM from your purchased tracks, it only gets tricky when your trying to break FairPlay DRM on tracks you don't own because you won't have access to the crypto key. I buy a fair bit from iTunes, all of it ends up on the PlayStation3 sans DRM.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

The Zune hasn't been around for that long, and by judging from your comment you haven't had your Zune for anywhere near the length of time you owned your IPod. When you've had your Zune as long as your IPod, come back and give us a run-down.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[asc99c]

If it wasn't a microsoft product, and Apple made it... NOBODY would have a problem with it.

If it wasn't a Microsoft product, no one would have heard of it. It's a mediocre product at best.

I've never had any data corruption problems with my ipod. My first Nano did have the broken screen problem but Apple quickly sent me a new one. My second gen Nano has just this week survived it's own trip through the washing machine. There's still condensation visible behind the screen but it's working fine again after two days drying out time. I actually think it's a quite robust and reliable piece of equipment.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[SailorRipley]

I'm not an Apple or iPod fan boy, but...

are you actually using the fact whether or not you can listen to radio on your mp3 player as an argument?

OH NO.. you can share music, but only get to listen to it a couple times

I assume you're trying to ridicule the people who comment on that ridiculous restriction...please tell me: what's the purpose of that restriction if appearantly I can move my music back to the pc or anyone's pc for that matter...?

BTW, you can do the same (copy songs to any pc without special software) with an iPod , you just won't have the nice filenames. So really strictly speaking, that's not a valid argument either. ...my unreliable ipods...rebuild...because of data corruption or sync error

I have enjoyed iPods for years, I'm on my second one (lost the first in a fire and no, the iPod didn't cause it) and never had to rebuild mine. Now, I could just as easily make a generalization based on my experience...actually, let me give it a try...

hey, both my iPods work perfectly, hence all iPods must work perfectly and be super reliable, so you must be a total retard for screwing up both your iPods...

just as general as yours...
based on just as much personal experience as yours...
and just as wrong, I'm sure, as yours...

(while I'm on a roll: if the fraction of troublesome iPods is enough to declare the product "unreliable", then what would you label, based on the widespread reports, the MS Xbox 360?)

My main reason for having an iPod has nothing to do with Apple, nothing to do with the design or appearance of the iPod, but everything with the available space (first had the 60GB, now have the 80GB), and iPod is the only one to offer those volumes. (Which doesn't mean I would change if somebody else would have a large(r) player to offer).

My point? my choice nor my (counter-)arguments were inspired by fan-boy'ism, but judging from the general tone of your post, both your choice in product as decision to reply in this thread are

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[steveo777]

No. OOooo as in 'surprise, and alarm'

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[NiceGeek]

How many times does it have to be said? The DRM on music purchased from iTunes is the fault of the record labels not Apple. Apple is trying to get the lables to buy in on non-DRM music. The "iTunes lock-in" is FUD plain and simple.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Mockylock]

If I have problems with an Ipod, and I wanted something else.. I'm sure it has nothing to do with me being "retard" (way to make yourself look smarter chump)... rather than just having issues with equipment. 2 Days ago, one of my best friends had issues with his as well.. wouldn't even start back up. He had it for a year and it's a brick.

I know that not all iPods are shitty, and I'm not saying they are... but I've had experience with bad ones.

Millions of people have good luck with them, and I dont' doubt that.. but nobody I know has has issues with a zune, just as you don't have trouble with your iPod.

As far as the mp3 copying... let's say Microsoft has the ipod and it wouldn't copy over file names.. and the ipod was able to copy the names over correctly.... Considering you have 5,000 songs on your ipod, WHO would you say had the better hand?

Microsoft throws some insignificant features on it's player.. still maintains the same quality and easier useability with transfers, but it's still worse than the ipod? I don't see anyone's reasoning?

The only real reasoning I could see is this point...
A person goes out to look for cars in a certain price range and finds 2 that are identical with the same ratings. One is newer, has a few more features like a built in mp3 head unit (heh, head unit) high tech cigarette lighter, a CB and whatever else... but, the other one has been known to be the best selling and most reliable for 10 years straight.

Now.. with that type of reasoning, I can see why the iPod sells strong. It's well known and people are comfortable with it (just like people using microsoft because it's all they know.. but that story is ancient).

I'm going to be honest... I haven't heard any complaints from anyone I know who actually owns a zune. But, I hear people who have never owned one that talk shit on it's extra features and such. It's understandable, they've never owned one... plus, it wouldn't benefit them if they don't run anything aside from XP, 03 or Vista.

I get your point, but I can't see how anyone can talk smack on better features when they haven't used them on a daily basis, ya know?

it does everything my ipods did, plus a bit more. It's simple and enjoyable, does the job well. Nobody can argue it if they've owned one.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Rycross]

Hm...DRM?

DRM that is only there if you bought DRM music or received music wirelessly from someone else.

DRM added to stuff I legally own?

False. It doesn't add DRM to stuff that you legally own. If you receive songs from other people wirelessly it will add DRM to the songs you receive because you may not legally own them. The whole reason the DRM is there is because the RIAA would have a field day with the Zune if it wasn't. But somehow Apple gets a free pass from being forced into DRM while Microsoft doesn't.

I hope you enjoy your Microsoft check too?

It hardly requires a Microsoft check to apply a little critical thinking and not make crap up. Seriously, I'm with the grandparent here. People love to go on and on about how the Zune is an inferior product, but they always fail to specify any way in which the iPod is superior. I mean, seriously.... DRMed wireless? The iPod doesn't even have wireless. I'm not sure how you can use that as proof that the iPod is better.

Oh by the way, iTunes bricked my iPod. Luckily it was still under warranty, so the Apple store replaced it.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Rycross]

Yes, because all that "Plays For Sure" music will work just fine on an iPod. Err, wait....

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[mugnyte]

  Exactly - MS's ad campaigns are battling...MS prior customers! Most people I see with a Zune tell me not to get one..they don't use the over-Pod features. Additionally, when they want to share some music.. they talk about simply giving me a thumbdrive to copy. WTF is MS thinking...Zune's DRM makes it DOA - as judged by MS's own Zune owners!

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[LWATCDR]

Play for sure is from Microsoft.
Zune is from Microsoft.
IPod is from Apple. I could be wrong but don't even the first Gen iPods work with the current iTunes?

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Rycross]

Ok, so in Apple's case, the DRM is the fault of the RIAA. Why is the same reasoning not applied to Microsoft? After all, Bill Gates also publicly came out against DRM too. Seems like there's a double standard going on here.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[metrometro]

The "iTunes lock-in" is FUD plain and simple. Huh? As a reasonably savvy non-expert, I can't update my iPod without loading my entire music library into iTunes. Likewise, any playlists have to be created/imported through iTunes. No uncertainly there - I'm locked in. And I don't have the energy to manage a library in two systems, so now all my PC music is through iTunes. And iTunes kind of sucks.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Rycross]

My point was if having a catalog of "Plays For Sure" music represents a significant barrier for switching to Zune, then it would also represent a significant barrier towards switching to an iPod. A customer isn't going to go, "Hmmm, well I could buy a Zune, but I have all this Plays For Sure music that doesn't work on it... I guess I'll buy an iPod."

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[malsdavis]

Jee's that makes it nice and convenient for Apple doesn't it, "It's all the big, bad music industry's fault, we don't want to have to charge you again for music you already bought on CD, honest" ...yea right.

And don't you realise that the only reason Apple would like to offer DRM-free music is so they can use it as an excuse to increase prices and hence their profit margin. As always though, Steve Jobs will constantly blame the music industry for a situation which Apple profits from.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[rbanffy]

Somehow, I don't think the sets "people who think twice" and "people who buy Zune" share any meaningful intersection.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you go outside and play? The grown-ups are discussing things. You might understand them when you're older.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[soupd]

Let's be fair, nobody knows what Steve Jobbs or Apple really thought about DRM when they launched the iPod and iTMS, however few would argue that the DRM factor and the way it ties the huge catalogue of music on iTMS to the iPod is anything but a strong selling point for the iPod. I genuinely like the iPod and iTunes (the software, not the store) and would probably have bought an iPod anyway but I have friends who bought the iPod purely because of the convenience of music on demand from iTMS.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Andy Dodd]

I think the point made a few posts up was that people are angry with MS not because of DRM in general, but because they pushed the "Plays for Sure" DRM initiative, which had two problems:

a) It didn't really "play for sure" even on devices that were theoretically compatible and supported
b) After heavily marketing PlaysForSure, Microsoft made their very first self-branded media player incompatible with it. Not just "claimed compatibility that doesn't work" but explicitly "not compatible".

As much as Apple's DRM sucks, at least one thing can be said about it - It's compatible with every iPod ever released since Apple started using that DRM technology, and as far as anyone can tell will continue to be compatible with all future iPods. Yes, you're locked in to Apple hardware, but at least you don't have to rebuy your music every time Apple releases a new iPod, whereas Microsoft's track record with compatibility is awful, even between different versions of their own products.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Andy Dodd]

I think the original post that started this thread had a user thought process like this:

"I need to upgrade my media player. It looks like I'm going to have to rebuy my music, this sucks. Fuck you Microsoft, at least I can be fairly comfortable that if I switch to iPod it'll be the last time I have to rebuy my music if I stick with Apple, as opposed to a clear track record of compatibility breaks even between devices from the same vendor."

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Mac users,

We have no problem with you wanting to get rid of us oh-so-horrible PC users, if it means that you guys stop trying to push Macs on us. Seems like not a single Apple story goes by without one of you guys smugly declaring how superior your Mac experience is. All it takes is for you guys to actually shut up, but I guess that concept is too difficult for you.

PS: You might want to get Jobs to cancel all those smug advertisements aimed at converting PC users too.

Love,
PC Users

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Rycross]

I can see that line of reasoning.

Of course you also have freaks like me who'd just buy the CDs and rip instead.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Achromatic1978]

Actually your comparison is incorrect. In MS's case, the it's that the old software is incompatible with the new hardware. So I wonder if iTunes 1.0 is all cosy and content if you plug a 2G Nano into it... ?

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[the phantom]

Nonono... it is more to the front of the mouth. Like this: "Nee! Nee!"

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[LWATCDR]

"So I wonder if iTunes 1.0 is all cosy and content if you plug a 2G Nano into it... ?"
Actually a better question is can you still put music you bought with iTunes 1 onto your new iPod. The answer I believe is yes.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[NiceGeek]

Well as someone who uses a PC and a Mac can I just be half smug? And I don't recall pushing Macs on anyone or declaring the superiority of any platform. I replied to someone making a snarky and undeserved dig at Apple.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Finque]

Bad analogy...

The latest version of iTunes is free, while old songs purchased under PlaysForSure that have to be repurchased in the Zune Marketplace are not. Also, iTunes 1.0 is 6+ years old (January 2001), and was OS 9 only. PlayForSure is not as old (I'm not sure the exact date, 2002-2003 maybe?), is compatible with Vista, and is still used by many retailers.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Finque]

It might be if there were an iTunes Store in iTunes 1.0. The iTunes Store was introduced with iTunes 4.0.

But yes, music bought with iTunes 4.0 will still work with the new iPods.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Wolvie MkM]

Do the time/play restrictions apply to my plain old MP3's or only DRM'd ones purchased through whatever online store?

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[TrancePhreak]

"live with drm encumbered music"

This part is incorrect. The music is no more DRM'd than when you got it. If you get it over wireless, yes it has DRM, if you get it from you computer it's whatever it was on there. You can pull songs straight off the Zune just like the iPod.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[scd]

If you receive songs from other people wirelessly it will add DRM to the songs you receive because you may not legally own them.

Um, not necessarily. If I were to put my own music (as in, my own compositions that I recorded) for which I own the copyright on a Zune, then it is legally up to me whether the copy of that song sent to a different Zune can be kept indefinitely. However, a Zune will automatically put the 3/3 limit on it. There's not a choice. Frankly, that sucks.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Rycross]

Um, not necessarily. If I were to put my own music (as in, my own compositions that I recorded) for which I own the copyright on a Zune, then it is legally up to me whether the copy of that song sent to a different Zune can be kept indefinitely. However, a Zune will automatically put the 3/3 limit on it. There's not a choice. Frankly, that sucks.

Notice I said "may not legally own them." You might own the copyright, or you might not. The problem is that its nearly impossible for an electronic device to decide whether you do or not. So Microsoft erred on the side of caution to avoid getting sued. I agree it sucks, but I can't really fault Microsoft when its RIAA pressure that made it necessary.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the point the grand-poster and great-grand-poster makes is that not everyone wants to use iTunes. Apple's iTunes lock-in however makes this a necessity. Not very user-friendly at all!

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Naughty, Naughty!

You commited the particularly heinous crime of criticizing Apple!
Don't you know how serious that is? It doesn't matter that you've actually got a good point, you shall be banned from Slashdot straight away!

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[I(rispee_I(reme]

The last word on Mac vs. PC.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[scd]

My point is that the Zune will add DRM to songs to received songs that one could legally possess if the sender has the copyright and allows it to be kept permanently, so it is improperly adding some DRM in circumstances where it shouldn't. Your original seemed to suggest otherwise, so I thought I'd point it out since even though there's a good chance you already know, others might not.

I wonder if someone could reasonably sue MS for 'usurping' someone's copyright due to this. I'm reasonably knowledgeable about copyright, but not that knowledgeable.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[LKM]

Dear PC users,

We will not use parent's moronic post as a reason to insult all of you. We realize that a certain percentage of all people are morons. We realize that this applies to Windows users as well as to Mac users and Linux users. Even though not one single Apple story goes by without a PC user smugly declaring how idiotic Mac users and iPod owners are, we will not hold this against you since we assume that only a minority of all PC users consists of condescending Apple haters who presumably had a really hard childhood and now feel forced to take their anger out on Mac users.

PS: We would not mind if you lynched these idiots yourself, though.

Love,
Mac Users

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[nekura]

Yep, it's not like you could do the logical thing and oh, I don't know, rip the music from those CDs you bought.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Mac and PC users,

You all need to get over yourself. You keep acting like one is better than the other. But I keep the world running.

Respectfully,
Cray Users

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ma cs_cant

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[norminator]

Now, with YOUR reasoning... since the zune has the exact same capability, PLUS the ability to copy MP3's back to ANY PC without special software, shitty wireless, radio.... how is the ipod any better, given that their features are identical?

I'm sorry if I'm wrong, I'm not really trying to fan the flames, so much as clarify something... Doesn't the Zune require the Zune software to use it at all? I thought that it doesn't show up as a removable drive (like the iPod can). I also thought that the Zune cannot be used with Windows Media Player. Why in the world would Microsoft build a device that requires a whole separate program from the one they've spent so many years building up as the center of the Digital Lifestye? It sounds to me like the Zune does require special software.

By the way, since the iPod can show up as a removable drive, you can copy all of your songs off of it. The file names are all changed, but the metadata is there, so you can re-import the songs back into iTunes on another computer. It's also supported by a number of apps in Linux such as Floola, Rhythmbox, gtkpod and Amarok.

OK, I guess I am fanning the flames. Flame on!

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Paradise Pete]

After all, Bill Gates also publicly came out against DRM too.

I hadn't heard this. So then presumably they're going to be removing it from Vista?

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Rycross]

My point is that the Zune will add DRM to songs to received songs that one could legally possess if the sender has the copyright and allows it to be kept permanently, so it is improperly adding some DRM in circumstances where it shouldn't

Yeah, but the Zune, or any similar device really, has no way of knowing if that song that you sent me is something you created with your own band that you own the copyright to, or just a song that you ripped from a CD. Ironically enough, you would have to add DRM to the song in order for a Zune to "know" that a song's copyright belongs to you.

I guess my real point is that its unfair to blame Microsoft for this particular "feature." They have to abide by copyright laws, and the RIAA would sue the player out of existence if they let people trade unprotected song. They'd probably call them portably piracy devices or something.

Apple has to behave too. The only reason that they can sell un-DRMed music is because they made a business case to various music studios and convinced them to drop the DRM. Good luck getting the same deal on something thats basically designed to swap copies of music.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[aliquis]

Exactly, as stupid to get the iPod to, just get the iAudio D2 or something and hope that it DOESN'T play drm protected aac or wma. There you go, a usable player. I have no idea if you can move music thru the SD-card or not, but if you can that sure works for copying aswell ;D

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[wass]

Seems like not a single Apple story goes by without one of you guys smugly declaring how superior your Mac experience is.

Good point, I hate it when Mac users go on about how great their preferred OS is. After all, we NEVER have to hear about that on Linux or *BSD stories.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[malsdavis]

Not via iTunes. It could probably be done via some 3rd party softare and then imported into iTunes, but downloading the albums via bittorrent proved easier in the end.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[geekoid]

The you are stupid.

Most people only seem stupid, but you are stupid.

Put CD in.
Import.

I don't see the problem. My 6 year old daughter imported some of her CDs(2).
Now, back to my original point, you are stupid.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[geekoid]

Apples said, way back in the begining they DRM can not work. They told that to the execs, DRM for them is more money and a pain ni the neck all around. It does not help sell iPod, which is what iTunes is for, and they are not locking you in. You can put mp3 on using there free tool, or buy one yourself, they don't care. Why don't they care? because if you have in iPod, you have the product they want to sell you.

If they were going after other people making tools, changing their DRM, didn't allow mp3s then you would have a case for lock in.

While DRM can be used for lock in, and some companies are clearly trying to do that, Apple isn't one of them. If Apple starts behaving that way, then I will stop buying music through iTunes.

Apple is putting in incentives for the music industry to drop DRM, what other company is doing that?

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Dragonfire00]

lol that's sweet. You should send an email with this quoted in it to microsoft.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[itcomesinwaves]

That's funny. I was in a GameStop the other day where they have these massive Zune displays (2 walls with Zunes, accessories, a TV playing the ads, and multiple listening stations). Two girls were talking about the Zune, and one was explaining to the other about the 3 plays restriction (I don't think she knew about the 3 day thing) and they both agreed that the commercial made it look like you could just transfer songs willy nilly.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[FLEB]

I wonder if someone could reasonably sue MS for 'usurping' someone's copyright due to this. I'm reasonably knowledgeable about copyright, but not that knowledgeable.

I doubt it. The person loading the files onto the Zune (w|sh)ould know its sharing characteristics of it, and they're loading it on of their own will. I could see there being some violation if the license for the content explicitly forbid applying DRM to the file, but even then, Microsoft is only providing the mechanism, not the decision to use it... and open-licensors don't tend to sue their licensees for such trifles.

It's really one of those curious situations where an incomplete extra feature ends up looking more like a limitation, even against competitors that don't have the feature at all, because there is an obvious shortfall from what is clearly possible.

Not that I'm Zune-cheerleading. I'm still sticking with plain ol' MP3/CD players.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[NoMaster]

Dear PC users,

We're sorry. Well, some of us are - the ones who use Macs because they Just Work Well, not because Jobs bent over to tie his shoelaces and revealed a New Dawn before telling us "just one more thing...". We're trying to stop the second type, but it's hard to contain the enthusiasm of some when they discover they don't have to reboot their machine after installing software, dick around endlessly with bug-ridden drivers, or that opening the lid on their laptop means it will actually resume where they left off rather than farting and falling over.

In return, we'd appreciate it if you would stop trying to push Beige Box Specials as being the 100% equivalent (sans OS X) of a Mac at half the price. We'll try and shut ours up if you try and shut yours up.

PS: We'll get Jobs to cancel the smug Apple ads, if you get Gates to cancel the McDonalds-alike Windows ads.

PPS: Sorry about iTunes on Windows. It really does suck. It truly is much better on a Mac; you should try it there sometime ;-)

Love,
An OSX on Mac / Linux on SPARC / OpenBSD on Intel / Windows user.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[rucs_hack]

Have you tried MediaMonkey to manage your iPod?

Or using linux - Amarok.

Amarok is just about perfect for the iPod, you can drag and drop individual files/albums oin or off it easily.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[jhol13]

I am extremely surprised that e.g. Creative still sells mp3 players with "plays-for-sure", even after been screwed by Microsoft once. People just don't learn: cooperation with Microsoft is one way street.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[mollymoo]

Dear PC and Mac users, "Smug"? You guys hardly even know the meaning of the word. Hugs and kisses, Linux users

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Andy Dodd]

Same here. I just rip, download, or for a while went to AllOfMP3. Now that iTunes is starting to go non-DRM I may consider them again.

The record industry focused too much on beating AllOfMP3 via lawsuits, rather than realizing that AllOfMP3 is clear proof that you can base a business model on selling non-DRMed music. While the money going to AllOfMP3 was not getting where it should, the fact that money WAS going to them was proof that consumers will pay if you give them something they want. (No DRM, stop charging MORE for an electronic download with less quality and add-ons than the physical CD.)

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I emailed maddox the link to the standalone QuickTime installer - the one he couldn't find and claimed didn't exist.

As far as humour, he's definitely losing his touch. He could have come up with much better things to make fun of Mac users for.

If anyone else wants QuickTime without iTunes, it's here.

http://www.apple.com/au/quicktime/download/standal one.html

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhh, Maddox -- the Internet's own Carlos Mencia.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[ncc74656]

If it wasn't a microsoft product, and Apple made it... NOBODY would have a problem with it.

Apple would at least have had the sense to not make the Zune look like a turd. Brown? WTF were the people at Microsoft smoking when they came up with that idea? Were they going for the UPS-driver demographic?

um... what can you do with an ipod aside from plug their dirty headphones in your ear?

Um...plug it into my car stereo? Dock it with the speakers on my office desk? (The adapter for the car stereo pipes line-level audio straight into the head unit, delivers power to keep it charged, and carries control signals from the head unit so you can use the tuning knob to scan forward/backward through a song and use the seek buttons to skip between songs. Good luck finding that level of integration for any other audio player, let alone for the Zune. Mine is in an '04 Alero, but most domestics and imports built in the past 10 or so years are supported.)

I haven't had to rebuild my zune because of data corruption or sync error...

I've never needed to do that with my iPod, either. Your point?

I can move my music back to the pc or anyone's pc for that matter, without having to have special software...

I can do the same thing with my iPod. Again, what's your point, other than that you're making it clear that your problems with the iPod were mostly of the PEBKAC nature?

It has radio which I use often at work...

FM-only is useless. You might as well not have it; the reason you carry an iPod (or whatever) is that there's nothing worth listening to on FM. If it supported AM, you could at least tune into talk radio. An FM-only tuner is about as useful as tits on a mule, as far as I'm concerned.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[bandmassa]

Listen, iPod users, it's simple. (I actually get quite fed up with having to explain this, especially to people who should know better...)

When you buy your tunes from iTunes, burn a CD of them, then reimport that at 320kb/s MP3. Seriously, the losses of this process are negligible and DRM is removed. At no point is anybody locked into Apple's hardware. This is perfectly legal because it's what the Fairplay DRM allows out-of-the-box, it's not a loophole, it's designed to work this way.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Golias]

The record industry focused too much on beating AllOfMP3 via lawsuits, rather than realizing that AllOfMP3 is clear proof that you can base a business model on selling non-DRMed music

That's a bit like saying that somebody selling stolen car stereos out of the back of a van for $20 each is proof that you can base a business model on selling electronics without anti-shoplifting tags attached to the boxes.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[feedmetrolls]

Narrator: And so the bold legions of PC and Mac users went forth into battle...the powerful, tightly-knitted cluster of Mac soldiers armed with their modded iPhone swords and unaware of the audible carnage around them due to their blasting iPods--and the varied array of PC users, from corporate IT managers to hardcore gamers to plastic-light-saber-wielding nerds to senior citizens to stay-at-home moms, armed with their shields prominently displaying their beloved coat of arms (the Windows symbol) and chanting "C:Windows/Attack.exe!" Although the PC soldiers epically outnumbered the Mac soldiers, large portions of the legion crashed frequently and inconveniently. There was no way that a single nation could fully gain victory in the war, but it was highly entertaining to the vast number of Linux villages watching eagerly from high up in the hills. This was truly a battle that no ONE could win...

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[data1]

I am interested in how you do this since I'd like to play my music on my PS3 as well - the only ones that play now are non-drmed AAC files and MP3s.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[soupd]

Well you don't say which platform you're using, but the best place to get leads (be aware that Apple change iTunes on occasion to break de-DRM software from working) is on the FairPlay Wiki here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairPlay

Here you'll find references (and some links) to current software. The most efficient type of software I've found are those which spoof the iTunes software, e.g. you give it your iTMS account details and it logs iTMS pretending to the iTunes, this way it can grab the crypto key on the server which makes removing the DRM quite easy. I'd suggest you change your iTMS password immediately afterwards.

Once the FairPlay DRM has been stripped, the resulting AACs will play on the PlayStation3 without further modification. There will usually be some 'artifacts' of the Apple DRM data in any stripped file, and this may be traceable back to you as the purchaser (I've not idea) so sharing DRM stripped files would probably be a bad idea.

I'll be happier when such measures aren't required and Sony buy into FairPlay (ha.. unlikely) or iTMS can finally free itself of DRM.

Re:new ad campaign ineffective, misses point

[Anonymous Coward]

*please* take your analogies back to fark.

Uptake ?

[Space cowboy]

So, according to a manager at Redmond, there are ~16,000 iPods at MS-HQ. From looking at that bin, they've managed to get about 0.1% of those people to "upgrade" to a zune...

I especially love the employee who gained brownie-points by putting something (anything!) in the ipod-bin, even if it was only an iPod *cover* [huge grin]. I wonder if Steve (that's Balmer, in case of confusion) was watching him walk on by, and he thought he had to put *something* in...

If MS can only get 0.1% of their *own* people to switch, they ain't gonna make it too big in the far more neutral marketplace...

Simon.

Re:Uptake ?

[holden caufield]

From the date of that article, that figure is from more than two years ago. I'm sure the total number of iPods on campus is much, much higher now.

Re:Uptake ?

[jeffasselin]

Steve (that's Balmer, in case of confusion) I just call him Uncle Fester. No confusion with that name.

Re:Uptake ?

[Mockylock]

I know of 4 people that ditched their iPods when they gave up on them in the past 7 months. It doesn't necessarily mean people are "switching" due to a new product, but more along the lines of not ditching an existing product simply because it's an "IPod" and it works for what they use it for.

Yesterday, a woman I work with asked me for help with her iPod because it prompted her to reset all the software on it, and it was the 4th time she had to do it. She asked me for a different alternative and I told her.

The only thing the iPod has going for it nowadays is the clickwheel and it being a fad. Hell, after getting rid of mine.. I STILL have the habit of calling my zune an iPod.. just because ipod is cliche when talking about an mp3 player.

I hear fewer horror stories from actual zune owners than I hear from iPod users. But, the ipod will continue selling like hotcakes because everyone knows the name.

Anyone could make a product with 400 more features including a free blowjob, and iPod fans would say it was shit because the blowjob was only good for one use, and it wasn't by a thai hooker.

Re:Uptake ?

[An ominous Cow art]

What I'd like to know, is whether anyone has dropped off a Zune and taken home one of the old iPods...

Re:Uptake ?

[R3d M3rcury]

So, according to a manager at Redmond, there are ~16,000 iPods at MS-HQ. From looking at that bin, they've managed to get about 0.1% of those people to "upgrade" to a zune... I may be wrong, but I think the Zune team is down in Mountain View, CA, which is where the box is.

I may hate the iPod, but I'm not going to go from Redmond to Mountain View just to throw it out.

Re:Uptake ?

[dzurn]

I hear fewer horror stories from actual zune owners than I hear from iPod users.

And I have heard no complaints about the current price of gas from owners of station wagons. Those cars must be getting GREAT gas mileage.

Re:Uptake ?

[asc99c]

The click-wheel is a really really good interface though. You call it a fad, as though people like it because it's trendy. I switched to ipods with the first gen nano having spent the previous years sticking with the cheaper more feature packed alternatives. The ipod interface really was so far ahead of anything else on the market. I was a little upset at the loss of radio, but after using an ipod I was amazed at just how much nicer to use it was.

Re:Uptake ?

[teknopurge]

if you look really close you can see that someone parted with an iPod protector - not even willing to part with the real thing....

Re:Uptake ?

[Elsapotk421]

OF course the zune has less horror stories because MUCH MUCH less amounts of people have bought them.

Re:Uptake ?

[Stonent1]

I worked as a contractor at an MS office around 2002 or so. I remember seeing a few iPods there and I had iTunes loaded on my machine that I used to listen to streaming audio. (I also used firefox exclusively, including on MS's internal web based apps, most of which worked fine) I think at one point my boss came over and I was showing him a web page that I had open in firefox and he didn't say anything about it. (He was a brother of a VP out at Microsoft). The other side of our floor had a section of G5 Macintoshes too. I once asked about them and they said that was for the application support group who supported Mac Office and other MS apps made for apple.

Re:Uptake ?

[Mockylock]

I missed my click wheel when I first switched over, but I found I can now throw my player in my pocket without having to worry about the lock. Not as fun or free when it comes to that... but, I still sorta miss it.

Re:Uptake ?

[VertigoAce]

That bin is in the lobby of the Zune building, which is not located on Microsoft's main campus. It's a few miles away, and it's not really somewhere that random Microsoft employees would go. If I had to guess, somebody on the team put it together as a joke, not as a real way of getting rid of iPods.

Re:Uptake ?

[Anonymous Coward]

And I have heard no complaints about the current price of gas from owners of station wagons. Those cars must be getting GREAT gas mileage.

OK, here's one: it cost me nearly $50 to fill up the tank on my Subaru Legacy GT Wagon the other day. AWD + a thirsty turbo motor = cruddy gas mileage, and because it's a high-powered turbo motor it needs the good stuff - no 87 here. I get about 19mpg, mostly short trips. It's disappointing.

0-60 in 5.x seconds, on the other hand, isn't disappointing.

Happy now?

Re:Uptake ?

[Anonymous Coward]

This ~16,000 number is silly and I know it's not true.

There are only 35,000 employees on the main campus in Redmond. No chance a full half of them have iPods. In fact, I work with people in the IT department there and not only do I visually not see many iPods at Microsoft (there are a few), the number of iTunes installations on machines is less than a 50th of that number.

Although it IS true that Jim Alchin had a fit when he saw someone wearing one of the first generation iPods on campus years ago. When Jim demanded to know why the employee was using an iPod, he responded, "You make something as hip and easy to use as this and I'll buy it instead." I'm not sure if that was the impetus for the Zune, but it may have helped.

Re:Uptake ?

[Shippy]

The Zune team is in Redmond.

Re:Uptake ?

[at_slashdot]

I call him Ballmer FUDD

Re:Uptake ?

[Anonymous Coward]

That number's screwy - the unsourced unreliable comment is "80% of employees who have a digital media player...".

Beyond that, the article stunk then, and it stinks now. I've never gotten or received any type of memo or feedback whatsoever (I work at MS in the "WDMG" - it's always a good clue as to the accuracy of the article when it makes up group titles, cites random unsourced people...), and I've seen perhaps three non-work-related iPods. People might have them, might not - but imagining that Microsoft is somehow some Orwellian anti-iPod gulag takes a hell of a lot of magic mushrooms.

That article sure smells like standard anti-MS FUD.

It's not like having an iPod particularly matters: the point is to make things better. If an employee had an iPod, that's one more person to make sure that you're able to meet the needs of with your product.

Disclaimers:
* I speak for myself only. Always.
* Since I don't have an iPod (Clix and an orange Zune), maybe I'm not getting some secret squirrel hate mails. But I doubt that, because management isn't insane.

Re:Uptake ?

[kalidasa]

I'm sure its true, but think about what it implies if you take it seriously: it implies that the Zune team don't eat their own dogfood. That's going to hurt morale a lot more than it could help it.

Re:Uptake ?

[kabz]

I especially love the employee who gained brownie-points by putting something (anything!) in the ipod-bin, even if it was only an iPod *cover* [huge grin]. I wonder if Steve (that's Balmer, in case of confusion) was watching him walk on by, and he thought he had to put *something* in...

Sadly the box was not large enough for a chair.

Re:Uptake ?

[Thumper_SVX]

You know, I'm just going to laugh my ass off when someone cuts a hole in the front of that amnesty box and starts taking "the spoils" out :D

Re:Uptake ?

[nEoN nOoDlE]

I hear fewer horror stories from actual zune owners than I hear from iPod users.

Maybe cause there are fewer Zune owners?

Re:Uptake ?

[QuietObserver]

I consider your comment an insult to Uncle Fester. Just because Ballmer shares a mild resemblance to Uncle Fester doesn't mean their personalities are the same. Personally, I'd rather Uncle Fester run Microsoft. At least then we'd have someone with a real reality distortion field in charge.

In other news

[Sciros]

General Motors is granting amnesty to all employees who trade in their Acura TL for a Chevy Malibu.

Also, Nokia is granting amnesty to all employees who trade in their Nintendo DS for an N-Gage.

Interestingly, there has been an increase in the number of Acura TLs driven by GM lower management...

Re:In other news

[fistfullast33l]

Who the heck modded you interesting? Is their sarcasm-meter broken? Just because someone says the word interesting, doesn't make them interesting.

Insightful +1

Re:In other news

[drinkypoo]

Who the heck modded you interesting? Is their sarcasm-meter broken? Just because someone says the word interesting, doesn't make them interesting.

What's interesting (let's see if this works!) is that the individual was likely just trying to work around a design flaw in the moderation system. The Funny mod doesn't increase karma, but modding you down will decrease it, meaning that typically getting modded funny very often results in loss of karma. In fact, if someone mods you funny, then someone else mods you overrated, then not only do you lose a karma point, but the overrated mod never appears in metamoderation, so the bad moderation is never corrected (as per the FAQ, you should concentrate on positive moderation.)

Re:In other news

[pimpimpim]

Interestingly, there has been an increase in the number of Acura TLs driven by GM lower management...

Propably these were the people from GM that were forced to drive a Pontiac Aztek to compensate for bad sales, and after 5 years did everything they could to buy a car that was reasonable in all ways thinkable :)

Re:In other news

[Sciros]

Must've been one of them ADD slashdotters who are like "omg wtf I have 5 mod points must use quickly" and are totally random about where they click on the drop-down menus.

Re:In other news

[jez9999]

Just because someone says the word interesting, doesn't make them interesting.

Interesting...

Re:In other news

[apt142]

Just because someone says the word interesting, doesn't make them interesting.

Interesting...

Funny how that works out.

Re:In other news

[mrchaotica]

In that case, instead of "interesting" people should mod funny stuff as "underrated."

Re:In other news

[jwriney]

Funny.

--riney

Re:In other news

[dasimms]

What is this moderation system of whence you speak?

Re:In other news

[jfengel]

You've got a user ID low enough that you should be granted mod points, so I can't help but suspect you're being sarcastic. Nonetheless, here is the FAQ.

Re:In other news

[dasimms]

You're right - I forgot my sarcastic tags for my post (but should have probably used the lame-ass-pointless tag on my post for accuracy) but thank you for the link.

Re:In other news

[El_Smack]

>>> Just because someone says the word interesting, doesn't make them interesting.
>> Interesting...
>Funny how that works out.

Thank you for the Informative post.

Re:In other news

[jfengel]

I'd intended to add that since you were posting at 1 you might have a low(ish) ID but simply not spend a lot of time around here. Most likely, though, you probably just lurk.

Re:In other news

[squizzar]

Crazy, how long can a simple joke go on for? The ability of a simple concept to adapt and continue is completely underrated.

(also, how does slashdot always get the capchas so spot on - drunker? well not now, maybe later though?)

Re:In other news

[hack slash]

I'd mod you up but slashdot.org doesn't work properly on IE6, JS error when trying to use them, 5 mod points sitting doing nowt...

Re:In other news

[ShaggyIan]

>>>> Just because someone says the word interesting, doesn't make them interesting.
>>> Interesting...
>>Funny how that works out.
>Thank you for the Informative post.

This must be the most Underrated thread ever. No Flamebait to be found!!!

Why do I get the feeling this is going to cost me. . .
{However, if a comment is labeled with a fitting (negative) label, choosing Underrated isn't such a great idea, because you could end up with contradictions like "+5, Flamebait."}

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>> Just because someone says the word interesting, doesn't make them interesting.
>>> Interesting...
>>Funny how that works out.
>Thank you for the Informative post.

Hey! What does an honest Troll have to do to get a word in edgewise around here???

Re:In other news

[sootman]

Wait... I have mod points but can't find "+/-1, Crazy"

Re:In other news

[hmccabe]

So why is there a greater effort to convince everyone to moderate incorrectly than to convince /. to make funny mods boost karma?

Re:In other news

[cswiger]

I figure many people on Slashdot are a bit odd from time to time-- at the very least-- so a "+/-1 Crazy" mod might not indicate much more than "+1 Still Breathing" option would. But I want to find a way of modding people "+1 Drunk" or "+2 Drunker":

99 unmodded posts on Slashdot,
99 posts to go,
Take one down, mod it around,
98 unmodded posts on Slashdot...

Re:In other news

[FLEB]

I tend to mod 'em "Insightful", as well-executed humor often must be. Then of course, I go and make a comment and foul the thing up anyway.

Yet the Mystic Processes still keep showering me with modpoints.

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there is your problem! Hope you enjoy your trojans!

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>> Just because someone says the word interesting, doesn't make them interesting.
>>> Interesting...
>>Funny how that works out.
>Thank you for the Informative post.

Come on, guys, you're really starting to get Off-topic.

Re:In other news

[scooter.higher]

There is a difference in posting for the sake of posting, and actually providing something to the conversation.

Re:In other news

[drinkypoo]

So why is there a greater effort to convince everyone to moderate incorrectly than to convince /. to make funny mods boost karma?

Because the quest to get Funny to boost karma has been going on literally for years without any positive response from the people "running" slashdot.

It's easier to get results out of the readership.

Tips

[N3Roaster]

Those early model iPods weren't put there by real employees giving up iPods. It's like a tip jar. You always start it out with a little in there to give people the idea.

Disclaimer: I own neither an iPod nor a Zune. I have an off brand music player.

Re:Tips

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the Zune an "off-brand music player"???

Re:Tips

[Anonymous Coward]

> Disclaimer: I own neither an iPod nor a Zune. I have an off brand music player.

I think it's perfectly fair to go ahead and lump the Zune in with "off-brand". IIRC from the amazon xmas sales charts, the Zune was behind Sansa even.

And now there are a couple of sansa's and more ipods that you can count in the top 100. not a zune to be found.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/r ef=pd_ts_h

Re:Tips

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an ON-brand music player, myself (and it's not an iPod or a Zune).

Very seriously.

[fsmunoz]

A bin that looks like an apple and says "Bite me!". Unless a lawyer pops out and bites in return while serving a pink slip, I'm afraid I don't view how this can look serious to anyone else.

act quickly

[jcgf]

Isn't this a bit like trading in your mercedes for a cavalier and the ability to hear your friends tales of where he has been with his cavalier? Doesn't sound like a very good deal to me.

Re:act quickly

[joe 155]

If I had the ability to trade iPods for Zunes I'd be pretty happy - VERY old iPod on eBay? £20. New Zune? flog on eBay for about £50... thats a good deal.

If I could buy and sell turds for that price I'd be happy, let alone a Zune!

Re:act quickly

[Kadin2048]

If I could buy and sell turds for that price I'd be happy, let alone a Zune!

That's a redundant statement.

Re:act quickly

[Anonymous Coward]

It has already been established that Apple is the Toyota of computers.

Re:act quickly

[guruevi]

It's worse than that, it's like trading in a pure gold or platinum bar with a turd and then carrying that turd around trying to squirt other people.

Re:act quickly

[Anonymous Coward]

If I could buy and sell turds for that price I'd be happy, let alone a Zune!

Have you considered the organic fertilizer business?

Re:act quickly

[geekoid]

It's more like trading you Mercedes for the Mach 5...only to find out Pops has disabled all the really cool features.

But if you hadn't explained it...

[benhocking]

Then, she might have liked it. The great unwashed masses just might buy it - not that I'm commenting on your wife's personal hygiene. :)

I can't believe you are saying this either

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, if you don't have a clue how to apply one of the over-done Slashdot meme jokes, then don't even try OK?

For the love of God, will someone please nuke the parent down to -1 (Redundant)?

Thank you.

Confirmation!

[tchdab1]

Zune development team confirms: Zune bites!

Corporate welfare?

[aero6dof]

I'm missing something here. Why would anyone deposit a few hundred dollars worth of hardware into essentially a trash bin for the sake of an anonymous show of company loyalty?

Re:Corporate welfare?

[mrchaotica]

At Microsoft? Why, to avoid being Fucking Killed (TM) by a flying chair, of course!

Re:Corporate welfare?

[Ant P.]

It'd be hilarious if someone decided to dump a few Zunes in there.

Re:Corporate welfare?

[crevistontj]

Because ipods break constantly and you might as well get brownie points when you discard the brick it turns into the day after the warranty is up

Re:Corporate welfare?

[DannyO152]

And amnesty from what: a notation in the personnel file?

Re:Corporate welfare?

[Grishnakh]

As others have pointed out, because it's profitable!

You give MS a junky old 1st or 2nd generation iPod, which you can buy for next to nothing on Ebay. It probably doesn't even have to work. They give you back a brand new Zune. Then you sell that to some sucker on Ebay for $100-200.

The Zune has intrinsic value, even if everyone suddenly decided they hate Zunes, because it has the same 30GB Toshiba hard drive that the latest iPods have, so it's worth $50-100 just for that. There's probably other MP3 players that use that same type of HD.

I have a feeling the ipods in the bin are all

[lena_10326]

....DOA or broken. Otherwise, the bin would have been pilfered.

Re:I have a feeling the ipods in the bin are all

[morgan_greywolf]

....DOA or broken. Otherwise, the bin would have been pilfered.

Well, except for the DV camera sitting in front of it ...

Re:I have a feeling the ipods in the bin are all

[Scorchio]

Haven't you seen Speed? There are ways around that, especially when there's a bucket full of free ipods at stake.

Re:I have a feeling the ipods in the bin are all

[Grishnakh]

A simple ski mask or balaclava would fix that problem.

Re:I have a feeling the ipods in the bin are all

[ProfessionalCookie]

I think "pilfer" implies stealing little things like pilfering a purse for gum. Course I guess it's all relative eh?

Stop rewarding criminal behavior

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only do these criminals get amnesty, but they get a Zune Visa, or Z-Visa as some call it.

If they want a real solution to the iPod problem, a wall must be built around the MS campus with strict enforcement at the border. Confiscation of all iPods should be mandatory and watch lists should be established to stop all potential malo-fascists from entering.

Re:Stop rewarding criminal behavior

[Some_Llama]

"Not only do these criminals get amnesty, but they get a Zune Visa, or Z-Visa as some call it."

Well this is just double speak, because even though they are calling it an amnesty they are still punished by having to use a zune. :(

Make a better Zune

[PackMan97]

I would think that the Zune team should be working on making a better mp3 player instead of trying to guilt trip MS employees into giving up their iPods.

Heck, it should be mandatory for every single employee on the Zune team to have an iPod just so they know what the best in breed mp3 player looks like.

Re:Make a better Zune

[soupd]

Microsoft are well renowned for taking a few attempts to get a product into a state at which point it's appeal will start to take hold. Usually this is because any Microsoft foray in to a new market results in poorly-designed or badly thought-out products but with the Zune I think they got a good product out on the first attempt, it's just launching an MP3 package (player+store) in the shadow of iPod and iTMS, you need a KILLER product to make to get noticed and the Zune isn't it.

Re:Make a better Zune

[amper]

The problem with that is that the entire Zune team would never actually use their own product, because the iPod is at this point so far superior that you'd have to be brain-dead to even *use* a Zune, let alone *buy* one.

Re:Make a better Zune

[Saige]

Obviously you've never used a Zune.

I have a 4G iPod, and a Zune. My iPod sits in the dock in the clock-radio we have at home. The Zune is what travels along with me in my purse and gets most of the use. I don't need to buy accessories to keep it from getting scratched up, the larger screen is all around better (especially when I'm wasting time watching AMV Hell 3 on my Zune), and I think the UI is slightly better in most ways.

Re:Make a better Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa!

Non-anti-Microsoft sentiments? On MY Slashdot?

Call in the dogs!

Re:Make a better Zune

[ShaggyIan]

I think the immediate problem would be the temptation to copy something. Not that MS or Apple like to patent anything. . .

You might also want them to design something unencumbered by the status quo (of course, that's taking the huge leap that they're not familiar with iPods).

I'm guessing the actual process was more like, "Play with this for a while, and come up with anything you'd like to do with it but can't."

Once the product is out though. . . I'm thinking of the "NO FOREIGN CARS" signs at the auto plant parking lots.

Re:Make a better Zune

[halcyon1234]

I would think that the Zune team should be working on making a better mp3 player instead of trying to guilt trip MS employees into giving up their iPods.

Especially since those now-iPodless employees will quickly go into withdrawal, and go buy another iPod. So not only would the plan not increase the sale of the Zune (since the "amnesty" Zunes would be free), but they've in face increased the number of iPods being sold.

Re:Make a better Zune

[Kazoo the Clown]

I would think that the Zune team should be working on making a better mp3 player instead of trying to guilt trip MS employees into giving up their iPods.

It's completely consistent with Microsoft's general psychology-- a serious lack of self-esteem. They don't have confidence in their abilities so they must find some way to game or coerce the system into favoring their inferior products. They certainly do it with their OS-- proprietary lock ins, threatening patent lawsuits-- it's clearly their standard MO. If they really thought they could build products people would prefer, they wouldn't feel the need to pull that kind of crap.

Re:Make a better Zune

[Grishnakh]

The Zune is NOT a "good product". The only good thing about it might be the bare hardware, just because they simply recycled an existing player on the market (Toshiba Gigabeat). As a package, though, when you account for the firmware, the PC software required to interface to it, and the music store, it sucks.

At the very best, the Zune might make a decent platform to run Rockbox on, but only if you could get it for a cheaper price.

Re:Make a better Zune

[Grishnakh]

Once the product is out though. . . I'm thinking of the "NO FOREIGN CARS" signs at the auto plant parking lots.

Do they really have those? Wouldn't that make it hard for GM and Ford employees to go to work unless they buy a competitor's car? After all, GM and Ford cars are made in Canada and Mexico. If you want to buy American, you need to get a Toyota, Honda, or BMW.

Re:Make a better Zune

[Grishnakh]

I see pro-MS comments all the time on Slashdot, and people getting modded down for bashing MS. There's a lot of MS fans here.

However, when Zune stories come around, it seems the MS lovers either disappear or are drowned out, or their appreciation of MS stops short of the Zune and they won't defend it.

Re:Make a better Zune

[ShaggyIan]

Yes, those really exist (or at least they used to). They cut down on the claims against the company for vandalism (spray-painted, broken windows, etc.). Yes, that really does happen.

Ironically enough, the UAW guys don't consider a car American based on where it's assembled, unless it is convenient to do so. That determination is based on whether or not UAW workers built it, and the nameplate. The old excuse was that the rice burners were built by non-union guys using foreign supplied parts. I don't know what the excuse is now, as I believe many of those cars are made of domestically produced parts.

Re:Make a better Zune

[Grishnakh]

I guess workers aren't really "American" unless they're part of the UAW... that's some interesting logic there.

I'm glad I don't live in Detroit, and have the freedom to buy whatever car I want. I thought America and freedom were supposed to go hand-in-hand; not around the UAW I guess.

Re:Make a better Zune

[OnyxNoir]

Its More likely than you'd think!

Microsoft unwilling to learn

[gilesjuk]

Maybe if Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and others actually asked their employees what they like about the iPod and why they don't own a Zune then they would learn something.

But instead they are too arrogant to realise their product isn't good enough.

Re:Microsoft unwilling to learn

[QuietObserver]

This doesn't just apply to the Zune. Fortunately, Microsoft doesn't yet have a deep enough foothold in the MP3 market to force people to use the Zune as they sort of do with Windows and Office. For example, I have used Word a little, and from what I've experienced, I absolutely detest the program. The overall experience is condescending, particularly as the program seems to try correcting you at every keystroke. On the other hand, I have used WordPerfect 9 for years. The experience is anything but condescending, and the program doesn't assume anything, relying on me to tell it how to operate, but I am having some problems because I can't get a fully functioning version of WordPerfect on Linux, and I won't go back to Windows.

Fortunately, there is something we can all do. We can all do our best to convince our friends and neighbors to stay with what works. Of course, there are those who will disagree with this opinion, and that's fine. However, I don't like to badmouth something until I've seen what it does, or failed to accomplish something because of the weaknesses in the program.

P.S. I hate OpenOffice for the same reason I hate Microsoft Office.

iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[The Living Fractal]

None of these devices interest me anymore. I used to own a 30gb iPod video.

The screen died after two months. The backlight wouldn't turn on anymore.

Instead of getting a new iPod (ebay to me: gg) I recently purchased an HTC Hermes (Cingular 8525) for slightly more than the cost of a new iPod.

It's serves as my:

-Mp3 player (I have 8gb of storage and I'm telling you, when I pick the songs I really want, instead of the thousands I don't care about at all, I have PLENTY of storage)
-Digital camera for everyday use (if I want greater than 1600x1200 I use my Canon, usually 1600x1200 is plenty)
-Cell phone
-PDA running windows mobile; it synchronizes all my appointments and reminds me in advance of upcoming birthdays/holidays
-Instant Messenger and e-mail (has built-in WiFI G)

I got all that for trading the storage space for movies on a 2.5" screen and music that I am constantly hitting next to get to a better song.

Please tell me, for pure mp3 players/storage devices, where's the appeal now?

TLF

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been perfectly content with my 1GB iPod Shuffle. I also have a 20GB iPod that's filled up, but I prefer the shuffle since I can easily throw it in any pocket on me. I find that I take it with me even for simple little trips around the corner to the grocery store. Sure, I like the space of the fullsize iPod, but 1GB turns out to be quite a bit of space (~8 albums or a whole ton of random songs).

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[vorpal22]

I understand the convenience of carrying around an "all-in-one" gadget as you've described, but I know many people on whom this would be wasted. Example? Me.

I don't want a cell phone or a portable e-mail / IM device. I don't like the idea of being that accessible and when I'm out, I want to be disconnected from the phone / cyberworld. Furthermore, whenever I look as a curiosity at cell phone plans up here in Canada, the price and lack of service amazes me. I can't believe people are willing to pay those kind of rates for such an abysmal set of features. I love my land line, which costs me $20 a month. I can't in good conscience support such an industry.

I also don't need a PDA; my head organizes my appointments just fine, and has memorized the essential phone numbers (most of which I never need anyways when I'm out, since I don't carry a phone with me).

I will admit that the digital camera feature does appeal to me, but with small cameras these days, it's no more effort for me to bring my iPod and a tiny digital with me than it would be to bring a cell phone.

Better off, the money my partner and I save on not indulging in things like cell phones, digital cable, etc. allows us (me being a grad student and him being a low paid administrative assistant) to go on a lovely tropical vacation each year. All my friends, who generally have slightly to significantly higher incomes, always comment on how for a poor student, I go on a lot of trips and express their jealousy. I just don't have their monthly service bills.

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[LinuxIdiot]

I have an 8525 and this makes me wonder, where do you plug in the headphones on it? I have never seen a headphone jack, unless you mean the Bluetooth headsets Bleh... Another thing, what about battery? Did you buy the big battery that makes it stick out or what? I am lucky to stay logged into IM+ for longer than an hour and a half before I get low battery warnings. I would love to use mine for everything, I just wish it had a headphone jack and battery power was better, without having to turn down settings.

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[Twixter]

I don't know, I like having a small cell phone, and a small device just for playing music. I can charge one @ home with out having the other around. -Lower risk of losing one. -I'm not tied to my MP3 player by a phone contract.

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[drinkypoo]

Please tell me, for pure mp3 players/storage devices, where's the appeal now?

Not running WinCE? Ne'er so appropriate a name has been attached to a piece of software.

I have an iPaq and I found WinCE to be a horrible, horrible operating system. No fucking way I would want it on a phone.

If you're happy, that's great. But I found a WinCE PDA to be a crap media player.

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[The Living Fractal]

I have a headphone usb adapter that fits any normal set of headphones and plugs into the phone's usb port. It's very handy and was about $5 on ebay.

I have the normal battery, but I rarely IM on the road. The majority of my IM'ing is done where I am near either a) car jack or b) outlet so I can plug it in.

My battery life is usually a few days of normal use (I'm not on the phone a whole lot, and I don't IM a lot on battery power). The extra-sized battery is nice but it does stick out a bit. I haven't needed to buy one yet.

I imagine for a real power user battery life could be an issue. My advice is just plug it in every chance you get. If that's still not enough, your battery might be getting old, and it may be time for a new one.

TLF

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[LMacG]

constantly hitting next to get to a better song.

How is your (seemingly poor) selection of songs the fault of the playback device?

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[The Living Fractal]

don't like the idea of being that accessible and when I'm out, I want to be disconnected from the phone / cyberworld.

Hey, I'm the same way. When I don't want to be bothered I turn on flight mode with two clicks. Problem solved. It saves battery too.

I also don't need a PDA; my head organizes my appointments just fine...

I don't know how many appointments/birthdays/holidays/etc you have to remember, but I have at least a hundred per year. And that number is growing. I'm no mnemonic genius either, so I appreciate saving space in the ol' cranium for other things.

If you just plain do not want to have a cell phone at all, then this definitely isn't the solution for you. Personally, my cell phone is my only phone. With long-distance plans my carrier is fairly inexpensive and I don't talk long-distance that much anyway. So I don't spend money on two phones. And there's no denying the emergency-availability that a cell phone provides.

TLF

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[The Living Fractal]

You missed my point. My playback device is not at fault. I just find that if I make a playlist I truly like then it fits in a 4gb chip with ease. It's not that the iPod is doing something wrong, it's just providing me more than I need, and more than I'll ever use. So I turned the excess into useful functions and combined them all into one device.

I'm extremely happy with it.

TLF

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[The Living Fractal]

To be fair, I'm not under contract with my 8525. I bought it unlocked from E-bay and swapped out the SIM card. I am month-to-month with my carrier.

If I ever lose my carrier (I won't) I can still have all the other features of the 8525.

TLF

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[The Living Fractal]

You mean Windows Mobile 5? This is not WinCE of old.

My experience thus far with WM:
- I can run multiple applications at once, such as Media Player, Excel Mobile, Internet Explorer, etc with no noticable slowdown until I really get out of hand. Which, honestly, is to be expected. The same goes for using a PC.
- The device has only locked up 2 times since I've had it, and both times I can't honestly attribute it to the OS. Seemed more like a hardware lock because both times it happened I pressed a sequence of buttons I can only describe as unusual. And it resets quickly with the stylus.
- Compatilibity and 3rd party programs community. There's a lot of stuff out there for a windows mobile powered device. Games, apps, utilities, new skins, themes, you name it, someone's made it.

But hey, if you don't like Windows Mobile, get one of the ones that runs PalmOS or something. There's a ton of those out there too. Or get a Crackberry. The beauty: Your choice.

TLF

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[drinkypoo]

The beauty: Your choice.

Actually, what I chose was the RAZR V3i, because I seldom use a mp3 player, but I want one. And for the car, rather than getting an iPod and a dock adapter for my stereo, I bought a JVC DVD player that plays mp3 off of a DVD-ROM (in UDF-bridge format.) It's pretty crappy, but it was a much cheaper solution (my last stereo had died so it had to be replaced anyway) and I don't need to carry another item back and forth between home and car. Just drop in a disc, and it will read rewritables just fine.

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[LinuxIdiot]

Ah awesome, I was not aware of those types of adapters! I may have to look into getting one.

I am not what you would call a power-user, I just like have the options available to me for when I get bored at work or elsewhere. I very rarely let it get below 50%, but I know that playing mp3s for 8 hours a day would not work too well at work without sacrificing other features temporarily. (Wish it did though!)

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[Anonymous Coward]

My 30GB Ipod Video is still going strong 2 years later....

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[Thumper_SVX]

Funnily enough, I also have a Cingular 8525 (well, actually an HTC TyTN; the device the 8525 was branded from). I use it for everything you said... EXCEPT MP3's. The reason? Well, partly because I need the storage on my card for work data (PDF's, Word files and stuff like that), but mostly because the Windows Mobile player isn't really all that good.

I have an iPod Nano that I use as my MP3 player. Although conceptually I like the idea of having "One Ring to Rule Them All" in my devices, it just doesn't work out that way. The TyTN/8525's interface is tuned to be a multi-purpose PDA/Phone. It's not the best MP3 player. The iPod is designed to do ONE job, and do that job the best that it can. I like that, particularly when I am driving in my car listening to music (love the iPod Dock on my head unit!). The interface is simple, even if you're not looking at it. I have my iPod set to shuffle music, and if I don't want to listen to a particular song at that moment I just hit "Next". Simple. With the TyTN, I have to look at the screen to do the same thing. Touch screens suck on MP3 players (which is one of the reasons I think the idea that the iPhone will replace the iPod is a fundamentally flawed idea).

There's also the fact that I have my phone attached to my hip constantly. My iPod? Well, if I have it hooked up in my car I can leave it in my car. Since it's, what, $100 on eBay to replace it I won't freak out if someone steals it out of my car (has happened before)... but I'd be a lot more stressed about losing a $500 phone. Yes, I realize that I should take my phone out of the car, but what if you forget? I've done that before; worked for hours at a location before realizing my phone was in the car. This is back when I did the same thing as you (phone as MP3 player) with my old MPx220. Thankfully, it never went missing, either... but it would've sucked if it had.

Different missions, maybe... but the iPod's mission is simple; play music and play it well. Although my Nano is cramped these days due to size constraints, I'm still not likely to buy an 8Gb MicroSD card and stick it in my TyTN to become an MP3 player too. In fact, more than likely I'll end up buying another iPod sooner or later... and again it'll do its single mission for me.

Re:iPods, Zunes, Archos, etc etc ad infinitum

[Grishnakh]

Landlines must be cheaper in Canada. Down here, they're advertised as being only $15 or so, but when you heap on all the taxes and fees, it really comes out to $25-30. Now that's for a bare-bones landline, without Caller ID or any other features which are standard on cellphones. I'm sorry, but after having Caller ID for so long now, I don't want to live without it. I don't know how it is in Canada, but the biggest problem with landlines is that you're constantly bombarded with telemarketing calls (hence a big part of the need for Caller ID). Telemarketers aren't allowed to call cellphones here, so when you do get a call, it's probably a legitimate call. (Sometimes you do get a telemarketer, but it's very rare. When I had a landline, I got several calls a day from telemarketers by contrast.) Add in all these features, and you're probably looking at between $35-50/month just for decent phone service. Don't forget to add in the long distance charges too, which don't apply to cellphones.

I'm not wild about supporting the cellphone industry either (yeah, it's not the greatest deal here in North America compared to other countries), but I prefer it to supporting the landline industry.

Another important feature of cellphones is the built-in phone book. I don't know about you, but I can't memorize that many numbers, nor do I see why I should with modern technology. Sure, a few numbers for your close friends or family is reasonable, but not for people I don't talk to often, or local businesses I call once in a while. If I'm out and want to stop by a nearby restaurant for take-out, I can call in the order on my cellphone, and then pick up my food on the way home. Not possible with a landline. Cellphones are also essential if you have to call 911 and you're not at home.

Cameras on cellphones suck. If you want to take decent pictures, buy a real camera with a real lens. You can get nice tiny portable cameras for $150-200 with zoom lenses and 8-10MP sensors that will blow away any camera phone.

Ford for Fords only

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of stupid ideas.... See this from a while back... UAW has also previously done other similar idiotic things...

poor devs

[blhack]

I really do feel bad for the Devs working on the zune. It must be tough to have the skills, the money, and the facilities to create something really really truly cool....but be held back by the fact that you "cool new toy" won't be allowed by upper management for fear of lawsuit. I mean, imagine if the zune didn't have the DRM built into the wireless song swap feature....that is just really really damn cool! I mean, imagine sitting in your cube, and talking to that cute girl across the row about some song that she should just oh so totally have, and then being able to just go "HERE!" and give it to her!! I would imagine that if the zune caught on, some cool linux dev would probably make a "zune server" or something like that, similar to the mt-daapd projectf (to make iTunes think that your linux box is sharing a song library with it), but for the wireless functionality of the zune.

THAT would be freaking cool.

FYI..i don't work for microsoft...i know that sounded like an ad for the zune or something...I own an iPod in fact. I'm just saying, keep in mind that the engineers I'm sure are working on this device aren't evil RIAA lawyers, they're geeks. It must just really really really suck to not be able to put all the cool features i'm sure you would want into a project that you're working on...

Re:poor devs

[R3d M3rcury]

I mean, imagine sitting in your cube, and talking to that cute girl across the row about some song that she should just oh so totally have, and then being able to just go "HERE!" and give it to her!! But you still wouldn't get laid, so what's the use?

Re:poor devs

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the DRM per se, it's the way they do it. Unlimited playback within those 3 days would be reasonable, but right now this sharing sounds more trouble than it's worth. Also, the fact that you cannot sync wirelessly with your computer is sincerely idiotic.

Re:poor devs

[dr00g911]

It's not just the lawyers. It's the marketing drones and management all the way up the chain.

The entire notion that MS paid for market research and determined that (wait for it...) BROWN would be a hot seller, and the entire initial marketing campaign would equate to "are you not cool enough for an iPod? admit it! come buy our decidedly uncool product for the exact same price!"... just mind boggling.

They're marketing and designing on Wal-Mart terms, but pricing to a premium. Something's gotta give in that equation.

I don't dispute that there are some ridiculously bright people over at MS, but I'd assert that they're the exception, not the norm these days within the corporate monolith.

Re:poor devs

[CodeBuster]

For the sake of the shareholders and the managers it is a good thing that Microsoft does *not* do this...the trouble with Microsoft is that they have enough money (more than some governments) to make them really *worth* going after in court and at $150,000+ per song for enabling vicarious infringement of copyright the RIAA and their lawyers would have a field day. I know that it would be cool and that people would want this feature if it was described to them and they were asked, "would you like to have this feature? yes or no," but the reality is that it just isn't going to happen. Microsoft attracts enough lawyers looking to grab a slice of their cash hoard without doing this...the last thing that they want or need to do is open the door for more lawsuits.

Re:poor devs

[halcyon1234]

and then being able to just go "HERE!" and give it to her!!

I already do that with my Palm Pilot + 1GB card. It takes a couple minutes per song, but it's still free, drm-less, wireless mp3 sharing.

Re:poor devs

[DeepHurtn!]

See, this is why nerds never get laid. A regular guy would, oh, you know -- *talk* to the cute girl. Walking over to her cube with iPod (or whatever) in hand, talking to her face to face -- that's a great opportunity to present yourself as sociable and attractive. Trying to "squirt" a file over is anonymous and antisocial -- why would anybody be attracted to that?

Re:poor devs

[blhack]

Because you don't just hurl the freaking song across the office. You say, "okay, yeah, press that button, and that button, okay hold on i'm sending it......did you get it!? okay check it out, i sent a couple of other songs too, tell me if you like them"....

this also gives you the opportunity to walk over a couple of days later and ask if she (or whoever you sent the music to) like the music. It is VERY Social.

you insensative clod

Amnesty?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amnesty from what? This is probably an internal joke to boost moral, but if it wasn't what do they receive amnesty from? Being fired for owning a personal device?

Re:Amnesty?

[UnknowingFool]

No, but Bill G. was not too pleased that most of his employees use Apple's iPod as their MP3 player instead of one by their partners^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H former partners

Re:Amnesty?

[flyingfsck]

iPods are illegal aliens in the MS campus. If they learn MS DRM and pay a fine, then they will be allowed to stay, but first they have to return to Apple for 1 year.

Re:Amnesty?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Microsoft actually have a company policy which prohibits staff from owning an iPod such that they would need an "amnesty"?

Oh crap! I'd better get this Linux partition off my company laptop before the amnesty lapses.

Re:Amnesty?

[Faylone]

amnesty from being chaired by Balmer?

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

I literally just used my last mod point on the mercedes/cavalier post above. I should've waited two minutes and saved it for this one!

Assumptions. What uptake?

[WidescreenFreak]

You're assuming that those are iPods that were used to "upgrade" to Zunes. For all we know, those are old, crappy (possibly broken) iPods that have been replaced with the newest iPod and therefore have no practical use to the owner. Might as well put them in some bin at Microsoft than into a landfill, especially if they still work! Then the person can just sit back and smirk while listening to the newest DRM-free files that were purchased from iTunes last night. :)

Since you asked

[BlackCobra43]

Yes, everyone who says it ironically is, in fact, approving of the concept put forth. That`s a good way.

You guys are all nuts.

[Higaran]

I've got a Zune, and its an awesome mp3/video player, I've used an IPOD, and I don't like it, the zune has alot easier UI and button scheme, plus for the same price a bigger screen than the tiny ipod one. Yes the Zune has its own software, but thats no diffrent than itunes being seperate from quicktime. The only thing that the IPOD has on the Zune is podcasting, but then again the itunes has been around for years and years, so they have had some time to fix it up, as to where the zune software hasn't even really been out a year yet. Anyone that bashes it just because Microsoft makes it needs to wake up, Apple is more evil than MS. If you look at anything that apple sells, you could easily find the same thing made by another company at leat 1/3 less cost. So before anyone bashes the Zune, please actually pick one up and try it out for a while before making a decision.

Re:You guys are all nuts.

[TheFlyingWonka]

A housemate of mine owns a Zune, and having used it once or twice on occasion (I wanted to get a look at the competition), I can safely say the iPod has nothing to fear. You're right that the Zune has a very nice UI, attractive and easy to use...but other than that, it has no outstanding factors that would make anyone prefer it to an iPod (or other DAP). It's not very attractive (brown?), somewhat bulkier than an iPod, and the software that's used to move music to the player is hit-or-miss. As was mentioned a couple of posts earlier, if the song-sharing function didn't have DRM, it'd certainly give the Zune the foothold it needs to stand out in the market. As it is, what's so special about it, exactly?

Re:You guys are all nuts.

[Anonymous Coward]

You had me for a while, until you got to the interface part. Good try though.

Re:You guys are all nuts.

[imamac]

a bigger screen than the tiny ipod one
Same resolution though. That just means you need to hold the Zune a little further away...

Yes the Zune has its own software, but thats no diffrent than itunes being seperate from quicktime.
Very different actually. Quicktime is a component of iTunes. Not the same relationship between the Zune software and WMP.

Apple is more evil than MS.
Opionion stated as fact. :-)

If you look at anything that apple sells, you could easily find the same thing made by another company at leat 1/3 less cost.
1/3 is a bit of an exageration. (The Zune is not 1/3 the cost.) Often times Apple may be a bit more expensive, but its the user experience that comes with their products that people like.
I' not trying to rain on your parade, just point out some things you're missing.

Re:You guys are all nuts.

[Lumpy]

Sweet! so tell me wher eI can get a ZUNE adapter for my car stereo or my Houses whole house audio system

Both of those plug into my Ipod and control+charge it. (no a FM modulator or a headphone in does not cut it. I like the complete control as well as playlist control from the head-unit or the LCD touch panel in my wall.

NOTHING like that exists for the Zune and therefore makes it a complete turd for me.

Ipod integrates with all audio systems seamlessly because they opened it up (and added a RS232 control port on the plug for complete control.) The Zune is designed to NOT integrate.

Tell me again how great the zune is.

Re:You guys are all nuts.

[Lord_Slepnir]

Here for the home AV kit

And here for the car kit.

I do realize that the "Accessories" link on a product's main page is the last place I'd ever expect to see accessories for a product, but can you please try to do some reasearch before you troll?

Re:You guys are all nuts.

[Paulrothrock]

It's iPod, not IPOD. And since you probably make the same mistake as other folks, it's Mac, not MAC.

This is from someone who has Macs at home but is forced to use WINDOWS on a DELL at work.

Re:You guys are all nuts.

[Anonymous Coward]

and both are not what he said. I dare you to get the Zune's information on the Car stereo's display with the zune kit. Also the home AV kit does not give me full control and track feedback on my touchscreen.

try again, you completely ignored the parent post. none of what you shown as examples are anywhere close to what the Ipod can do.

the Zune CAN NOT BE INTEGRATED into car stereos or whole house audio systems like the ipod can. you posted links to crappy docks with RF modulators or a silly headphone in. none give data feedback to the device controlling it because it is IMPOSSIBLE for the zune to do so.

Re:You guys are all nuts.

[QuietObserver]

I like your point about the way you should spell Mac. MAC stands for Media Access Control.

ARGH!!

[WidescreenFreak]

Damn it. I read too quickly and completely missed your "even if it was only an iPod *cover* [huge grin]" comment.

I'll just blame it on the fact that it's the Friday afternoon before a three-day weekend. :(

How much you wanna bet....

[dcavanaugh]

That the few iPods in the bin were purchased on E-bay and planted in the box. After all, an empty box would be an embarrassment by itself, and MS has a track record of manufacturing its own fans.

I don't see the problem here.

[amper]

After all, as poorly regarded in the marketplace the Zune seems to be, it's quite apparent that Microsoft is semi-serious about making the Zune a "player" in the market. In order to do this, Microsoft needs to at least get their own people using their own companies' product, and if they have to use cult mentality to do it to overcome the fact that no thinking person would at this point choose a Zune over an iPod, then that's what they need to do. If Microsoft's own people don't use the Zune on a daily basis and discover for themselves why it is that the Zune is a flop, then they're never going to be able to improve it. Of course, they may *still* not get it...they are after all *Microsoft* people.

But what do I know, I *like* brown. I want a brown iPod. I always buy my accessories in both black and brown.

I can't believe it's not butter

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, even if you do have a clue how to apply one of the over-done Slashdot meme jokes, refrain anyway.

Slashdot readers

[cerberusss]

I'm offering amnesty to all slashdot readers. You can mail me your username/password.

They're all new

[dekkerdreyer]

Look at them! They're all the current generation, and the backs of them still look quite shiney. Brand new iPods, probably purchased for filler, like the tip jar of a worthless cashier having a few dollar bills in it.

Re:They're all new

[nuckin futs]

look again..compare the size of the screen (look at the white border around the screen) to a new one on apple's site.

Re:They're all new

[dekkerdreyer]

No clunky moving wheel, no fourth generation touch-sensitive buttons, they're all click-wheel.

No Warranty?

[green pizza]

> The screen died after two months.
> The backlight wouldn't turn on anymore.

What about the warranty? Didn't Apple honor it? You should have at least had Apple fix the iPod under warranty so you could sell it on eBay. The semi-recent iPod Video models fetch a good amount of money on eBay!

Heck, I'll take your dead iPod if you don't want it.

Re:No Warranty?

[The Living Fractal]

Honestly, I was so disgusted I didn't even bother. But you're right, that's a couple hundred bucks I threw away.

I still have it.. it's probably out of warranty now (dunno how long the man. warr. is). Maybe I'll send it in anyway and put the money in savings for the new GPS-enabled device I want to get next.

TLF

Re:No Warranty?

[RealSurreal]

OK. So you've got more money than sense and you chose Windows? I thought people usually choose Apple in that situation.

Re:No Warranty?

[The Living Fractal]

Are we forgetting that I bought an iPod first? :)

TLF

Re:No Warranty?

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, I was so disgusted I didn't even bother. But you're right, that's a couple hundred bucks I threw away.
...And we should trust your judgement in .mp3 players why, exactly?

Rather than spend five minutes on the phone with Apple, you tossed $250 out and spent further money on another device that actually does what you said you were looking for instead of doing the research upfront.

Call me old-fashioned, but it seems you're just a spoiled fop with too much money and a contrary attitude.

For that matter, we don't even know if you spent any time troubleshooting it - maybe you set the backlight timer to a second or something.

Re:No Warranty?

[amper]

Oh, no...it's quite true that people with more money than sense almost always choose Windows over Macintosh. It's the people with money *and* sense that go Mac. The poor shlubs with sense but no money use Free Software.

Re:No Warranty?

[kalidasa]

On the other hand, my bought-on-the-day-it-came-out video iPod is still running fine, as is my 3G iPod. I'm guessing that you just got lucky.

Dumpster Diving

[DaveV1.0]

OK, where is it so I can go dumpster diving. I will keep the best one and sell the rest on EBay!

Ah-hah!

[green pizza]

So you're the one who bought the Zune!

Amnesty?

[DragonWriter]

Does Microsoft actually have a company policy which prohibits staff from owning an iPod such that they would need an "amnesty"?

the bin should say

[recharged95]

"DRM-based MP3/MP4 Player Recycle Bin"

Share the love. Both players should be in that bin...

Re:the bin should say

[TheFlyingWonka]

And what would you recommend? I'm not being sarcastic...my old iPod just broke (that'll teach me to take it rock-climbing) and I'm in the market for a new player I could use with all three major OSes, if possible. Any ideas?

Re:the bin should say

[Anonymous Coward]

That's weird, I don't have any DRM'ed files on my iPod. That's kind of a flimsy base.

Re:the bin should say

[imamac]

Come on...neither player requires DRM. Having the ability to play DRMed music is not the same as "DRM-based." Ther are a LOT of people who have no DRMed music on their iPods or Zunes.

Re:the bin should say

[geekoid]

iPod. . . perhaps with some of protective case.

No it doesn't work on all OS's out of the box, but there are tools for using it with linux.

Apply is trying to move away from DRM, and they are a major force. It's a good player.

Re:the bin should say

[TheFlyingWonka]

That wheel interface is starting to get a bit annoying, to tell the truth. If they made a higher-capacity Ipod shuffle, I'd likely just get that. As is, I'm going to see what else is out there.

Re:the bin should say

[LunaticTippy]

I like mp3 players that are USB-pluggable, no software required. You won't get many features, but the device doesn't get in my way either.

I'm using a jumpgear mp3 which uses separate thumbdrives. You can get the whole deal with 2 gig for under $50. I like being able to have multiple flashdrives for it. I like being able to walk up to any computer running anything and access my drive. I put other files on it, and it is very handy.

The drawback: I've got to put the songs I want to hear on it. No fancy sync function. The interface is clunky, but I'm just listening to music. I don't want it to bake muffins for me. I can read tags & filenames on the display, play, stop, ff, rew, next/prev track, and it even has buggy bookmarks if I'm feeling fancy. I actually prefer this, being an old-fashioned hands-on kind of nerd.

Oh, another thing that I look for in a player: removable batteries. A must for me. I use rechargeable AAA NiMH bats and get 10+ hours. If I'm on a trip or away from civilization or spending the night at a friend's house I can swap batteries if they run out.

Re:the bin should say

[maxume]

Did you like your iPod?

Three platform gizmo that runs directly from the iPod with no install:

http://www.floola.com/modules/wiwimod/index.php?pa ge=WiwiHome

Re:the bin should say

[LunaticTippy]

I thought you had to sync the player through itunes or whatever. Can you just copy files to it from the command line like the mass-storage USB mp3 players?

The reason I've never been willing to use an ipod or zune is the required software issue. All it would take would be one update to cripple your device or suddenly require drm.

Re:the bin should say

[imamac]

There are many freeware options to manage files on an iPod, just check versiontracker.com. However, iTunes is the simplest solution. That doesn't mean you have to use only DRMed songs from the iTunes Store, however. You can use any mp3, aac, etc. Additionally it will convert windows media files on import.

Re:the bin should say

[LunaticTippy]

I know there are freeware options. That isn't the problem.

I want to be able to walk up to a random PC and transfer files. I may not have admin access to the machine, or the owner of the machine may not want me to install an application just so I can manage my device.

My current mp3 player acts like a mass storage device when I plug it into any computer. I can copy files easily, no software required. Why don't other devices give you that freedom?

Re:the bin should say

[Technician]

And what would you recommend? I'm not being sarcastic...my old iPod just broke (that'll teach me to take it rock-climbing) and I'm in the market for a new player I could use with all three major OSes, if possible. Any ideas?

Many of the cheap flash players are DRM free. Because of that they are incompatible with the offerings of most online music stores. Personaly, I bought a no-name brand (Coby). It was less than $40 US. It connects as a flash drive. It includes a MIC and FM tuner and records from both. It saves the result as a plain MP3 file. It has a SD card slot so it is easly expanded.

MP3 players get hard knocks. It's the main reason I went cheap. I primarly use Linux. A true no driver or sysc software install makes this player truly OS independant. It's incompatible with Windows 95 simply becuause Windows 95 does not support USB.

Look at the off brands. Find one that claims MP3 maybe WMA support but does not do DRM. Most likely it works as a flash drive. I hope this helps. A $40 player with an extra $20 SD card is an afordable option for rock climbing. If it gets smashed, you will likely be able to recover the SD card.

Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine's CmdrTaco with password lnx4evr

keeping track of competition

[j00r0m4nc3r]

"Most of the people [working on] Zune would want to have an iPod to keep track of the competition,"

That's right, how can you copy your competitor if you don't have any of their products on hand? Oops, did I say "copy"? I meant "compete with".. my bad..

Re:Assumptions. What uptake?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are such a tool.

Far from new

[Adambomb]

This is far from a new tactic amongst companies; Attempt to drum up company morale with a "special offer" stressing the "loyalty to your company". I've seen this in a variety of industries (granted, mostly service providers) where employees are offered an additional discount if they are switching from a competitor to the companies service.

The funny thing about most such projects is to those with any marketing exposure, it comes across as the most annoying angle. If a certain product or service is cheaper/better suited for my purposes from a competitor, switching to your own companies service only really makes sense with regards to funding competitors. However, most people needs to focus on their bottom lines.

Yes, funding a competitor of the company who provides your ability to live is a bit iffy, but what companies try to make us forget is that employees are also consumers. If the replacement good is perfect for the employee and they get a decent deal, great! Thats perfect for morale. If they don't need it or if the good isnt equivalent to what they're using now, well thats just the way it goes.

no, use *your* headphones.

[oni]

plug their dirty headphones in your ear?

just plug your headphones into their ipod.

What's the matter, you don't have your mp3 player with you? Well then, you wouldn't be able to share with the zune either.

Re:no, use *your* headphones.

[Mockylock]

Damnit, i AM a retard. ;) This is true.

Re:no, use *your* headphones.

[FurryFeet]

I appreciate that you graciously acknowledged a mistake, in a classy manner. Still, I cannot stop grinning manically at the smartass mod who qualified your "I AM a retard" with a (+1, Informative) :-)

an attempt to increase usage?

[Locutus]

there are alot of Microsoft employees and by distributing the Zune to as many as possible, they can then put out a press release showing a sharp increase in usage. ;-)

LoB

The Zune Counter

[MrCrassic]

After the Zune was released, I decided to go counting how many people would actually buy it. My target was where my internship was: New York. This would be a fairly easy time killer; many New York commuters have some sort of MP3 player, so it shouldn't be too hard to at least get a raw estimate and ballpark a real-world value from there.

Since it's release, I only counted TWO people who had a Zune. TWO. Out of the HUNDREDS of people that I have seen while commuting every weekday to work, and out of the HUNDREDS of iPods (various generations) I have seen on those commuters, I have only seen TWO people carry a Zune. Furthermore, I have yet to really see a Zune make Page 1 of your advertisements. It's usually pretty deeply hidden, unlike its competitor.

Another interesting place to confirm this is eBay. If I had to ballpark a value for the average price of a Zune there, I would have to say it was somewhere around the upper $210-lower $220 range. Check here. However, the average price of iPods is noticeably higher. Check here.

In short, I think that this iDumpster, while it might surface as a joke, is just to remind the Zune developers that they have quite a bit of work to do before they even expect to see people actually flocking to this device. This is just my honest opinion.

Re:The Zune Counter

[LunaticTippy]

How can you tell what people have? I see a lot of earphones but rarely see the device they're connected to. White used to mean ipod, but not anymore.

Re:The Zune Counter

[MrCrassic]

By the old-fashioned method of observance. :-)

Your point is true, but with iPods, it's basically impossible to control any music flow without using the device, unless you have a remote control, which I did not see any of with the sample I took. For many people here charged up on the Zune, the difference between the champion and the competitor should be blatant.

I think I even saw more Sandisk devices than I did Zunes. I would say that if I grouped all of the 'other' MP3 players that I saw, that total would be greater than the Zune-carrying total. Once again, refer to eBay or Amazon to confirm this, as those sales seem to agree with my conjecture.

Re:The Zune Counter

[Anonymous Coward]

I've so far seen one single Zune compared to an enormous number of iPods on the London Underground. Quite frankly the thing looked like a brick. I'm not surprised at all MS are barely selling any.

well, conversely...

[Anonymous Coward]

"an empty box would be an embarrassment by itself"

If the product was so superior, they wouldn't need the box in the first place.
Nor would employees have to listen to "jokes" like this to nudge them to support products.

Kind of like when some Ford plants limited employee parking lots to Ford vehicles only.

Amnesty

[loafula]

Calling it an "amnesty bin" implies to me that Microsoft labels iPods as contraband. Amnesty bins are usually provided as a no questions asked solution to disposing contraband. Like weapons amnesty programs, and contraband amnesty bins at military installations.

Money For Nothing ... Zunes For Free

[Ranhert]

I guess they aren't quite giving them away yet .... but you can keep your job if you stop using the competition's superior product.

Re:Assumptions. What uptake?

[WidescreenFreak]

Oooh. A bit of pointless drivel coming from an AC. You'll forgive me if I really don't care about what you have to say.

to whoever controls said bin

[EdelFactor19]

Dear sir controlling said bin,

since you are getting rid of them, i will gladly take them off of your hands for you for free. wouldn't want you to have to pay for dumping of such material.

that is unless of course you dont like the zune and plan on keeping them all for yourself, or selling them all on ebay for you own personal profit.
thanks

- nerd looking for free gear

amnesty from what?

[amigabill]

What does this amnesty benefit to them? What happens if they fail to trash their expensive gadgets?

I think you're wrong

[Space cowboy]

As far as I know it's the MBU (Mac Business Unit) that lives in Mountain View (great place, btw - I lived there for a year :-), and they all threatened to resign when MS wanted to move them up to Redmond - MS wanting to consolidate everyone to one location.

I did a quick search, and I can't find anything linking the Zune to Mountain View. I did find the blog of a Zune tester who apparently lives in Washington ("I was at the Rascal Flatts concert in Tacoma, Washington on Sunday.")

Simon.

Re:I think you're wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

MacBU is for the most part not based in Mountain View. Entourage is developed there, but the rest of the Mac Office suite is done in Redmond.

"Amnesty"

[Irvu]

Amnesty is a legal state in which you are granted a proactive pardon for certain crimes. That is, we know that you have committed crimes but we guarantee not to prosecute you or penalize you legally according to some means. For example, many small-time drug dealers have been offered Amnesty for their (comparatively minor) crimes in exchange for information about their suppliers. More recently justice department official were granted amnesty for crimes including hiring people by political affiliation, illegally firing people for lack of political bias and violations of the Constitution of the United States by illegally tapping the telephone and internet use of Americans based upon little to no evidence. This was granted in order to simply get them to show up and speak before Congress a task which is nominally compulsory but apparently congressional warrants are now mere suggestions.

Crucially such amnesty is typically conditional and applies only to information gathered during the covered period. Additional outside information or a failure to be open results in a revocation of the amnesty or in the case of Congress a polite request not to do it again.

The two questions that the use of this term opens up are a) is using an iPod a crime at Microsoft, or perhaps listening to bands other than U2? and b) does this mean subsequent use of iPods or a return to non-microsoft products will result in punishment?

Like a tip jar that gives more than you put in.

[twitter]

They probably "baited" the jar with broken models they bought on ebay. You don't think anyone will trade a working music player for a Zune, do you? Garbage in, something a little better than nothing out. A few interns might take the bait, but I doubt than an M$ employee has the time or need to play games with music players.

As we thought, no innovation

[Quila]

Matt Rosoff, an analyst with Directions on Microsoft, also suspects the bin's placement is meant to be funny, as it would likely be in the Zune team's best interest to use the latest iPod devices for competitive purposes.

We thought the Zune was a bad Microsoft attempt at an iPod knock-off, well, here you go. Maybe Microsoft should reverse this and buy latest-generation iPods for its entire Zune team. Then the attempt at a copy might be better.

Coming from the Walkman generation....

[Anonymous Coward]

...I don't get the obsession with portable music players. It's not like we can't get music everywhere we go, from our laptops to our desktops to our car radios. And despite what people say, it's really just cutting yourself off into your own little space where you can listen to what you want. We can blog our own thoughts, edit our own wikis, and only encounter things we don't like in the real world. Too bad, let your eardrums wear out to the beat, I'd just as soon take a break from the music.

Another way to interpret the amnesty box:

[merc]

... Get your free iPod here.

Well....

[Wookietim]

I guess this is a way for MS to convince SOMEBODY to use a Zune....

Only early models?

[argent]

Looks like a new model iPod Shuffle in there.

IAA Mathematician

[Anonymous Coward]

> Somehow, I don't think the sets "people who think twice" and "people who buy Zune" share any meaningful intersection.

I find the empty set very meaningful, you insensitive clod!

maybe their just joking...

[icegreentea]

just because they work at microsoft, doesn't mean they can't have fun. the bin is apparently set up in the Zune dev team's headquaters, which is apparently no where close to the rest of MS. Don't have to flame everything MS does (yes, i know its /.).

Re:maybe their just joking...

[geekoid]

Probably, but it reeks of "Look, we're edgy and smart ass too...please look!"

On the other side of the same hallway...

[Tarkwyn]

... was this interesting bin: http://flickr.com/photos/tarkwyn/513911705/

Re:Assumptions. What uptake?

[flosofl]

Hey, and you even got one of your mod buddies to perform some moderation abuse by modding my post off-topic instead of doing the appropriate thing by ignoring my post and saving the mod points to mod up those who deserve it! So, now someone who deserves to be modded up can't because some idiot mod decided to waste his points. Smooth move.

Dude, the tinfoil goes on your head.

Take a chill pill, it's only Slashdot. The fate of humanity doesn't rely on whether a post was unfairly modded or not.

Put your ipods in the apple bin that is next to

[unity100]

the "Pick your svastika armband bin"...

If they do that, and dont make people wear svastika armbands, there is an inconsistency there.

There's a difference...

[Anonymous Coward]

Between "Eating your own dogfood" ( tastes bad, so bugs get fixed ) and "Drinking the Koolaid" ( Blindly following mandates, w/o regard to how much it sucks ).

Which of these is this? If Ipods are being used, it means Zune still has work to do.

Re:Assumptions. What uptake?

[WidescreenFreak]

Take a chill pill, it's only Slashdot. The fate of humanity doesn't rely on whether a post was unfairly modded or not.

And thank { insert deity or lack thereof here } for that! With all of the mods around here who seem to have nothing better to do than abuse the mod system, I can only imagine what this world would be like if they were able to do their abuse in the real world! Hmmm.... I wonder if Bush is a Slashdot moderator.... Nah. Just coincidence, I'm sure.

I'm the only person in the world who owns a Zune

[falsified]

And I like it. It's thick and it's the color of poop, but it has a radio (with decent reception, no less!) and a bigger screen for video.

Their DRM system probably sucks. I don't buy music off the internet, though, and most people don't buy (much) music off the internet, so it's never been an issue for me. As for the wireless functionality, like I said, I'm the only person in the world who owns a Zune, so I have no idea if I like that or not :)

Unless you use iTunes to buy music, the Zune actually isn't bad.

Did anyone else notice...

[RealGrouchy]

That the icons next to the article summary (foot, ipod, borgates, apple) have the foot smashing the iPod?

How appropriate for the article.

- RG>

"Zune" is becoming the new way to say "ewwwww".

[Futurepower(R)]

"All of which she says (said) "ewwwwww!" to..."

Have you noticed that the word "Zune" is becoming the new way to say "ewwwww". As in, "That car was such a Zune that I took it to the junkyard."

I'm sure the devs get better Zunes than we do.

[r00t]

I bet everybody there, at least in the engineering department, has a DRM-free Zune.

Re:I'm sure the devs get better Zunes than we do.

[Anonymous Coward]

We do not.

Re:I'm sure the devs get better Zunes than we do.

[Grishnakh]

You have the capability and you don't do it? What a bunch of pussies.

Microsoft afraid of a lawsuit?

[Anonymous Coward]

It just doesn't make any sense on so many levels. A) They are incredibly wealthy, B) they love lawsuits. C) You know they KNOW by now how they fucked up on this song sharing thing.

Why don't they just fix it?

I remember reading about it the first time thinking "oh my God, MS has done something truly innovative and it sounds like a winner!" And then a few paragraphs down talked about the idiotic DRM shit, and I was like "well there goes that idea".

What is wrong with them? I would so not buy their stock...

Microsoft needs to....

[blankoboy]

create a new child company with a hipper sounding name and put all it's multimedia products under it
Not so hip sounding:
-Microsoft Xbox
-Microsoft Zune

Sounds wicked cool!:
-Firecut Xbox
-Firecut Zune

Ok, silly example hehe...but you get my point. The "Microsoft" image is just not hip, I hear Microsoft and right away get an image of a fat, bald loser throwing chairs. They really need to put all their entertainment products under a fresh cool sounding company name to shake this image.

LOLOL M$!

[Anonymous Coward]

You spelled Microsoft with a dollar $ign! How original!!!

Plays for Sure?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if they accept "Plays for Sure" devices? :-)

forget the ipod.

[Truekaiser]

buy a iaudio
the x5l
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8 2E16855603827
beats the pants off of the ipod. it can play more audio formats(ogg and flac too) and last longer.

Dear penis envy

[theolein]

I own a Mac and run both Windows and OSX on it. Macs are, in fact, PCs these days, with x86 CPUs and the ability to run whatever OS runs on other PCs, including Microsoft's enormously overpriced Vista (and you accuse Apple of being pricey?????)

Hmmm, so where does that leave you?

Predictable reaction

[jkro]

Pissed-off MacBook owners lunch vicious anti Zune attacks.

Re:I'm the only person in the world who owns a Zun

[macdaddy357]

I don't understand why so many people are bashing the Zune. I love mine! It is the perfect size to shim up an old table I have in the den with a short leg.

Hadn't thought of that

[ProfessionalCookie]

I hadn't ever thought of it that way before. Hmmm. Insightful.