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iPod Casualties Offer New-In-Box Bargains
An anonymous reader writes "For the last few years makers from Creative to Virgin have proclaimed their latest digital audio player to be an iPod Killer, only to watch those portables flame-out in the marketplace. This doesn't mean there was anything wrong with them, in fact some were pretty decent. They just couldn't compete under all the iPod hype. It turns out that this pattern has created a huge sub-market of new-in-the-box stock, sold for pennies on the dollar to overstock vendors who then pawn them off cheap to the public. For the price of a basic iPod Shuffle you can now acquire some well-equipped units from a few years back. Examples include the 40GB Toshiba Gigabeat F40 and AlienWare's CE-IV with external speaker system."
Difference between an "iPod" and "40GB Toshiba Gigabeat F40"? One is cool and the other is geek speak. Go figure.
Since most of us use linux, which of these players work with linux?
that Apple selling billions of dollars worth of ipods and accessories is all hype? I'm sure there have been many decent players that have come to market, but no ipod killer. Why? Because the ipod does what it does very well, it's affordable, and there's a flood of accessories that go with it. I can go into damn near any record, computer, electronics, or fashion store in any mall or town and find at least an ipod skin or cover of some kind, odds that they'll have a gigabeat f40 or zune accessory? I'd say the hype is all in articles talking about decent players being given away at pennies on the dollar, when you've got a similar player that can't be given away, hype is your best friend.
There is nothing preventing anyone from listening to the exact same music for similar prices on equally priced or cheaper players. It's not "hype" that keeps the iPod on top, it's the fact that no company has made a product that competitive.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't even listen to music on my genuine IPod or the CDs I own (we used to purchase music from the store back in the day) anymore. First, I can't stand any of the homogenized genres of music being played on the air. Second, the music industry is enslaved to the RIAA and other such organizations. Playing music is a gut wrenching chore to me. Every time I do it, I feel as though I'm licking their fascist boots. As such, all these MP3 devices are pointless to me these days. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple IPod units are falling in sales these days too.
I feel really bad for the independent artists and those trapped via contracts, but the industry needs to die. It needs to be leveled before we can witness a rebirth of the industry in both the consumer and artist's vision.
Life is not for the lazy.
Dell DJ Series- yes 512 MB not sold at 15$ creative zen- yes 1 Gig 20$ 20 gig 100$ archos- probably 40 gig not sold at 180$ originally 600-700$ they had some problems- people wouldnt buy them [overpriced?] they were comparable as far as the amount of storage to the Ipod but I am guessing this is a case of Ipod's momentum killing off anything that isnt drastically better. why buy something that isnt as well known when it doesnt do anything spectacular compared to the Ipod?
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
The non-iPod market reminds me of when I look at Linux desktops. I, or almost anyone with a Mac, could stand in front of a two machines and make a giant list of glaring and astonishingly obvious problem with fonts, alignment, the way UI elements operate, how colour is used to convey importance and information, the names of applications, the sets of options presented to the user, how errors are handled, and so on.
I get the same feeling when I see the non-iPod players. The problems with the entire package, player, software, and store(s), is so obvious to anyone with an iPod that one has to think that the companies are absolutely delusional in their development.
You would think they would just need to spend the cash to have a room with:
A Mac running iTunes
An iPod
One iPod user
Their player they are developing
A machine running their software
and let that person point out all the glaring problems these companies have coming up with a complete package like Apple has with the iPod/iTunes/iTMS.
If I was inclined to buy an ipod like device, I would most likely get something like this. New and hip doesn't mean anything to me really. Accessories.... don't really want or need em.
Shit I don't even have a cell phone.
Linux Zealots: Smarter than Mac Zealots, but still zealots.
I know, not the question you asked.
Anyway apparently the answer is yes.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
No matter how you slice it, a gigabeat ain't an iPod.
I make these: http://beatseqr.com
Am I unduly suspicious, or is there something wrong when an 'anonymous reader' submits an article that is basically a sales pitch?
Just like the Zune, any non-iPod device is something you only show to your very closest friends, amongst nervous laughter, as you explain to them the embarrassing chain of events that led you to buying it.
Just remember how clunky the devices were before iPod and how inconvenient online music sales were before iTMS. USB 1.0 use alone meant a PC hung for 10 minutes after you located mp3 files to transfer manually on your hard drive. The use of Firewire, although phased out later, meant that it was now practical to sync your whole library - to a device you could jog with.
Obviously after iPod became a market leader, it's not enough for the same companies that tarnished their image in recent past to come up with a device that has roughly the same features as the iPod for a similar price. Offer one click hardware-accelerated DVD transfer or saving individual songs as MP3s based on info received from over-the-air FM stations and we are off to something. Of course, this product will have to be made in a free country.
I can't see a 40Gb Archos 700 for under 150ukp (300usd) on ebay, and 30Gb WiFi-604's are 250ukp (500usd). So if that's "pennies on the dollar" then, they must be REAL expensive retail.
#include <sig.h>
I'm gonna sound like an Apple fanboy, although in reality I'm more like the opposite. But it's only fair to acknowledge what Apple did right.
Thing is, before Apple being the #1 player with all the accessories and brand name and all, it was just another player. Everyone could make a HDD based player... and fucked up.
E.g., I remember going to a few shops in '99 to get an MP3 player. (Yeah, one of those "back in my day" tales;) There was the iPod or there were some things that qualified as one or more of:
A) As big as a fucking brick. (E.g., I remember the Archos brand name just because it was the biggest one on display. It looked like two 3" HDDs stacked.)
B) Overpriced to hell and back. (Oh, they had some extra feature ahead of their time, but not worth paying that kinda premium for it. E.g., there were those offering video playback... except they cost more than a decent laptop, which could play those videos in higher res.)
C) Encumbered by retarded world-domination attempts. (E.g., no Sony could actually play MP3, even after they had started grudgingly calling them MP3 players. If you read the fine print, they offered to convert your MP3s to their own 64kb/s codecs that sounded like playing the song through a cheap old digital watch. I'm sorry, but MP3 is lossy as it is, converting it to another lossy codec just gives you basically a multiplication of that.)
D) Were an interface nightmare. (Creative, I'm looking at you.)
Etc.
I'm sorry, I may not be the most hip and fashion-aware guy around, but if I end up with something the size and weight of a brick on my belt, then at least it better not cost _more_. I ended up buying a CD-based player at that time, since it was a lot cheaper and actually lighter than some of those.
Years later I got a Creative Zen, because it was one of those clearance bargains the summary mentions. It's still bigger than a same generation iPod, and still encumbered by retarded ideas. E.g., I can't actually just plug the USB cable in and drag-and-drop the music files on it, you actually need Creative's software for that. Why? E.g., even if I wanted to start a company producing accessories for it, it doesn't have a little connector like the iPod has. The only accessory you can make for it, will have to be connected through 3.5mm audio jack. I.e., either it's headphones or it's speakers, and not too smart ones either.
What I'm trying to say is: even just saying "but iPod has accessories" makes it sound like some random twist of fate, and absolves Creative and Sony and everyone of all responsibility. It makes it sound like some other people just happened to make accessories for the iPod and not for the Zen or Walkman, dunno why, it must be hype again. In reality there was a time where that market was up for grabs for everyone, and the likes of Creative and Sony just blew it fair and square. That iPod ended up king of the hill and worth making accessories for, simply because (at the time when it counted) it was indeed the better player.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
This phenomenon is well known to devotees of Woot!. iPod knockoffs comprise seemingly half the seven new products offered each week—various Roomba models comprise the other half—and a good chunk of the selection during each Woot-off.
> They just couldn't compete under all the iPod hype.
Bullshit. They failed for technical reasons or for DRM reasons or for a combination of technical and DRM reasons and may get an assist from bad or no design. You are defending the 8-track tape. It is pitiful from a technical perspective. The "PC" technology market did not take over the consumer entertainment technology market as planned. Let it go.
iPod hype hit in like 2004-2005 when the iPod was already years old and had already bested all rivals on technical, DRM, and design merits. Something like 90% of iPods ever sold have color screens, that excludes the first 3 generations entirely, they are just a blip on the radar, but those were sales to a much, much geekier crowd.
It may be a treasure trove for Slashdot readers but maybe that's only because we will have the right combination of diminished expectations and technical know-how to not be disappointed in one of these devices.
When I was a DJ on my college station a couple years back, I bought an iPod so that I didn't have to drag my records and CD's all the way down to the university on my bike. I ran my show off of my little box of rock, and damn it, the thing has taken a severe beating and keeps on ticking. You definately get your moneys worth when you buy an iPod.
The reason why I bought an iPod over any other player?
Because I didn't really care, and when I went to buy an MP3 player, the only thing I could find was an iPod. If stores will only stock iPod, there must be something to it. I dunno.
Could be that it was 2001, then, or maybe 2002. Who knows. I can't say I marked the date in the calendar or anything. It's not like it was some major turning point in my life or anything, and it was 5-6 years ago, so, well, I think I have am excuse to be fuzzy on the details. Heck, it could be that I'm mixing up several visits to the store in one.
And yeah, I do remember that everything was very expensive at the time, which is why I got the CD-based player. But I do remember that most other stuff was even more expensive, because the way I remember that story, _if_ I had went with a HDD-based player at all, bang/buck it would have been an iPod.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Using http://www.rockbox.org/ can give some older or failed (marketing-wise) players new life. Rockbox runs fine on the Gigabeat Fx0 :)
What part of "it plays regular old MP3s" is difficult for you to understand?
Only when you copy them over using iTunes, then you can only copy them back off on a computer that is "authorised" for that iPod. That is, if you actually want to listen to them - you can freely copy them back and forth from any computer in "data mode", but you can't actually listen to them if you do that.
Unless, of course, you install Rockbox. http://www.rockbox.org/
Check out some of the themes Rockbox supports:l ery
http://www.rockbox-themes.org/
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsGal
Rockbox really has some great features. (I wish they'd redesign the website though.)
iTunes doesn't have DRM in it. The iTunes music store does. iTunes is just an MP3 playing piece of software that CONNECTS to a service that sells "DRM-piece of shit" music, SHOULD YOU ALLOW/CHOOSE IT TO.
Yes, the iPod requires you to use iTunes to put the music on it. How is this different from Sony's godawful players, and so many more? So many require their own proprietary software to allow you to download music from your PC onto the player. If you hate that, then get a player that doesn't deal in that crap. It doesn't change the fact that the iTunes program, which plays normal MP3s, can transfer those normal MP3s, without re-encoding, onto the iPod, still as normal MP3s.
NO DRM, UNLESS YOU'RE STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY IT.
You (the parent post) probably know this but it bears repeating:
"Harmony" is most certainly not the "regular mp3's" the GP was talking about. Regular mp3's are just that - either ripped fresh from a CD, p2p network, or any other source of non-DRM'd mp3 audio files. In case you didn't know - most media player software anymore tends to at least have some kind of plugin allowing for basic writing to iPod's, and if you don't prefer that method, you can always load Rockbox or iPod Linux (unless your model isn't compatible with iPod Linux) allowing for drag and drop transfer of music and playlists with "/" as the root directory (using Rockbox).
So not only is your point not valid, it doesnt even seem to be on topic - so just how the hell is it insightful? I mean, where the damned hell did "Harmony" get brought up anyway? Again, just in case you didn't catch it, the gp wasn't talking about removing Apple's DRM at all, he's talking about music files of which neither Apple's nor any other DRM exists at all...
No you most certainly do not. As a linux user I can use amarok or gtkpod to transfer songs to my iPod.
You (and the other morons in this subthread who are wrong) obviously do not own ipods, so you should not bitch about their supposed flaws when you have no clue what you are talking about.
...the article actually means 75c on the dollar, or 3/4 the price that they were originally selling for. Wow, what a bargain, you can get a 2 or 3 years old player for 75% of the original price.
I must say, I am not very excited.
They failed for technical reasons or for DRM reasons or for a combination of technical and DRM reasons and may get an assist from bad or no design.
What DRM did these players have which the IPod didn't? Can you give some examples?
You can't put an MP3 onto an (unmodified) iPod in a manner that it will both play, and be capable of being copied back off onto a computer that isn't "authorised" for that iPod. If you copy it with iTunes you can play it, but you can't freely copy it off again. If you copy it in "data mode" you can freely copy it off again, but you can't play it. This is not a bug; this is a design "feature" to make the sharing of free music awkward at best thus making the iTMS seem less cumbersome.
I'm a Linux user, and I own an iPod. I wiped its firmware and installed "Rockbox". Now it's a *proper* MP3 player. :-P
Well, you can use rhythmbox, amarok, gtkpod, and others. You're not solely limited to iTunes.
Of course, it still sucks that you can't just use rsync or unison to synchronise your music. This is a major deficiency and is one of the reasons I won't buy an iPod.
I had many off brand mp3 players, just bought an 8 gig nano for my wife.
solid, responsive, easy to use, quick to use (scrolling).
The iTunes software is a bit clunky to get used to, but overall I'd say that it is much nicer than the other mp3 players I've used.
For only a few dollars less why would I consider wasting my time on an mp3 player that is likely not as good?
Completely, 100%, wrong. No DRM is added to non-DRM'd files you put on an iPod using iTunes, gtkpod, or your own favourite iPod syncing tool. The music is stored in a hidden folder, and re-named to a hash value, which was done on the early iPods to make searching the collection fast on their slow processors, and is retained because legacy stuff like that has a habit of staying around.
When you plug the iPod in to any computer, it shows up like a USB or FireWire mass storage device. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from copying the music from the hidden folder to your computer. The tags are preserved, and so you can generate human-readable file names easily using a number of tools, if you wish.
Please stop spreading FUD.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
No you dont you fucking idiot! Use a goddamn search engine and actually (OMG) do a little research. Come on, enlighten yourself. It wont kill you I swear.
Not true. I owned both in 2001. The original iPod sounded great -- at lest a good as the Nomad. Once I had the iPod, I never bothered with the Nomad again.
No. iPod manufacturing is and has been no better or worse than for other large, well-known companies' products. That may be good or bad, I'm just saying it's not different.
Unless I'm misreading what you said, it sounds like you still have to copy the music from a "hidden" folder and guess what the hash is supposed to be. If Apple had wanted to make it quick and easy to share/copy playable music, I'm sure they wouldn't have done it that way. Your description sounds like a workaround.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
First of all, as was already pointed out "only innovative in terms of interface" is deceptive. For the average user, good interface is _everything_. I consider myself a nerd, but even I don't want to spend my time learning the intricacies and quirks of a bad interface. It's just a freakin' next-gen Walkman, I just want it to play music. When I want to learn cool new high-tech stuff I go and learn some new language or programming technique, not how to master a badly designed MP3 player.
About iTunes for PC, I wouldn't know about that, and that wasn't really on my list of priorities at that time. Actually, it still isn't. I like to actually buy a CD, and the MP3 player is just there to play the stuff I ripped myself. As long as there's a reasonably comfortable way to transfer my files to it, I'm happy. So I can't really comment on that part.
To get back to the "only innovative in styling/interface" part, the point is that by comparison everything else was worse. I'm just the average Joe Consumer. I don't care if it invented the wheel or is "only" the first who didn't make it square. If it's better bang per buck here and now, that's what matters. I'm not going to buy a worse product just to make a point about rewarding the early pioneers.
And the stuff I kept seeing as "iPod killers" until maybe 1-2 years ago, simply sucked compared to the iPod. That was the point I was making.
Most were significantly bigger and heavier, and in fact some were freakin' huge. The Archos I mentioned, for example, was entirely too big to carry in a pocket. In fact, it was as big as a freakin' purse. You could put a leather strap on it and call it a women's purse, and a rather large one at it.
For all the talk about iPods being overpriced, most of those were actually more expensive. The iPod was 400-something Euro, while half of those ran between 500 and 1000. In some cases I could figure out the useless gimmic they had extra, to justify the price. (E.g., yeah, I'm so going to pay double because this one has a colour LCD display and can show photos too.) But for most I just couldn't figure out any reason. It's as if some marketting genius thought, "I know! Our product may be bigger, heavier and suckier, but we'll make up by making it more expensive!"
Simply put, without being an Apple fan at all (I actually was squarely in the "Macs suck" camp), I had to concede that if I were to buy any of those, the iPod was the only half-sane choice. I'd have been hard pressed to twist logic enough to justify buying something the size of two stacked 3" HDDs for an extra 100 Euro.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
For instance ... the hard drive based RCA players NEVER HAD good support to BEGIN WITH --- one of the many reasons they failed to gain market share. If you have a problematic RCA Lyra try to get support, software, firmware, or even good internet discussion boards. Just try.
The iPOD is by no means superior to alot of the MP3 players on the market today, not in interface or design. It's a matter of preference in that regard. Personally, I find the Zune, and eSansa (which I own... drag and drop on any OS... yes please!) interfaces much more intuitive. The reason Apple did so well? It's plain and simple... THE COMMERCIALS AND ADS. Outside of Microsoft's Zune (a million units pushed already!?), I haven't seen any other MP3 player even try to do all the hype that the iPOD has. I used 2 devices before the IPOD that were just as good design wise as the ORIGINAL iPOD. But outside of the occasioanl ad in magazine, I can count the number of ads on 2 hands and feet that I saw for them both in roughly two years. Compare that to the media blitz of the iPOD and you will see why it's so popular. People are fancy marketing sheep, and will buy a boxed rock if marketed correctly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_rock
It just kills me when I use my eSansa 260 and people start saying iPOD this and that... I've personally converted about 7 iPOD users. Now many that bought into the fad now moving on to BETTER devices. The mentality of FANY BOYS never ceases to amaze me. But without you guys, I would never get better products cheaper... What a double-edge sword it is! To get better devices I have to listen to the prattle of sheep.
First, the iPod uses proprietary software to load up its music. You can't just 'drag and drop' music into it like a USB drive and play it. You must use iTunes. The only alternative outside of iTunes are some quasi-hacked open source alternatives. The iPod is not terribly friendly with non-iTunes software.
Second, maybe you have some archaic version of a Creative Zen, but my Creative Zen didn't even come with software to load MP3s. It just piggybacks off of Windows Media or just about any other piece of MP3 playing software with MP3 player support. The only MP3 software I have found that doesn't play nicely with my Zen is iTunes.
Personally, I think you are a tad confused about what MP3 players you have in your hand. You seem to be under the delusion that a Zen can only use Creative software, and you seem to think that an iPod will happily act as as a USB MP3 player. You are wrong on both accounts. Maybe you need to go back and figure out what MP3 players you are actually using. I suggest reading the logos smeared across them.
This is an absurd claim. Copying non-DRM songs of an iPod doesn't require any sort of "authorization". The songs aren't encrypted on the iPod and any of a dozen tools can read the database format.
I, or almost any computer tech with experience with Windows, Linux, AND Mac have to actually sit down in front of the machine and use the input devices to discover what is wrong with each system. I use Linux because other systems deprive me of a level of control and fluidity. Mac is a great, great operating system, and it's absolutely the best for certain users. But if I had to set up an environment for myself, I choose Linux. If I have to set up an environment for 20 people with different ideas about how a computer should work, I use Linux.
I highly recommend Macs to people, regardless of their hardware track record. I recommend Thinkpads alongside them as a disclaimer about build quality. You are a fanboi, plain and simple. I think you haven't seen a properly configured Linux desktop, which nowadays means installing one of the many polished distros (Ubuntu 7.04 is the ubiquitous current favorite).
When it was just Windows vs Mac, I found it hard to argue with Mac users, except that they tended to be arrogant and cultish. Now that I get to argue Linux vs Mac, I discover that Mac users are generally just unwilling to learn something different, and proud of it to boot.
Here:
1. Open Finder
2. Think, "Oh, I need a network icon on my desktop, and Apple make everything perfectly"
3. Drag the network icon to the desktop.
4. Ask yourself, "Where did my network icon go?"
I can't remember any single element of the Windows UI that is as ridiculous as the above. Now, the UI as a whole? Ridiculous as all hell. But still, if Redmond were the measuring stick, Apple fanbois would STFU.
THE TOUCH-WHEEL THING:
I have owned a Sansa e200 series until I realized I had no money, and why was I purchasing an MP3 player, stupid. My father owns a Sansa e280. My friend Jay owns a Sansa e260. They are freaking beautiful. The only thing IMHO is the click-wheel. It isn't nearly as pleasant as the touchwheel. Thank god for patent law. Creative has a touch-based solution, and Sansa goes with a mechanical wheel.
I think that this single element is important. Also, the momentum of the hype is very very important. The iTMS thing is important. I know people who have purchased an iPod because it seemed like a good idea, and they never use it, because they didn't really think about whether they wanted an MP3 player. The accessories didn't come out when nobody owned an iPod. It's taken many years, so that counts as momentum. And if you don't think the iPod idea has a strong hype-driven element, you haven't talked to people.
While the Sansa doesn't have software as nice as iTunes, I think their Rhapsody-based solution for music downloads is ingenious. You pay $9.99/mo, and get unlimited downloads to your Sansa. You can also have it generate a playlist for you based on your listening selection, a la last.fm. Not the same as owning music, and I'm not a fan of poorly-implemented DRM, but this is at least as good as iTMS, albeit with a different intention.
Anyway, [/rant], and stop being such a ridiculous fanboi.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
I'd much rather stick with my landline, thank you very much. My calls never drop and they don't sound like I'm talking through a tin can. You can actually understand me the whole time in contrast with a crackly cell phone.
I wish cell phone companies would use the advances in wireless technology (e.g. http://www.et.byu.edu/news_jensen.htm) to improve the quality of the connection rather than squeeze more subscribers into each cell tower, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.
Yes, what TheRaven64 describes is a workaround, and not very practical for most people, but since there's not crypto or DRM involved you CAN do it. There are some tools that can rebuild the filenames based on id3 tags, and I have done this in the past.
In fact I don't particularly like iTunes so I use Anapod Explorer http://www.redchairsoftware.com/anapod/ on Windows, and Rhythmbox on Linux. Tons of programs are available to get to your music as long as you don't put DRM-ed files on it, so people make too big a problem out of this.
no radio. why?!
i have never, and will never buy an iPod: no radio
i am now a 3x iRiver buyer... i now have an iRiver clix, and... drum roll please... it has a radio! what an amazing 19th century concept! (smacks forehead)
i've heard the justifications about why iPod has no radio: no good radio in most places, radio programming itself sucks, blah blah blah...
hey iPod lovers: how much does that circuitry cost? 50 cents?
for all the vaunted value of an iPod, the designers couldn't spend 50 cents and put in a frickin' radio?
50 cents of circuitry compared to the value of radio as determined by the biggest radio hater: still worth it!
i never, ever understood that about iPods, ever. why they don't have a radio. to me, that is abysmally stupid
could someone please try to explain to me the reasoning and rationale that had iPod forego radio?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The folder is hidden in the UNIX sense that it starts with a . (or has the 'hidden attribute set on FAT filesystems) and so is only advisory. Finder won't show it, and neither will Explorer if it's set to hide hidden files, but most file browsers have an option of showing it (and you can always get to it in the terminal). You don't have to guess the hash unless you were using the filename to store metadata (in which case, it won't be displayed on the iPod anyway). If you have tags containing the correct information, then it's trivial to re-import it. In iTunes, you can just say 'Add to Library' (File menu) and point it at the folder and then 'Consolidate Library' and it will copy all of the files from the iPod into your iTunes music directory and construct file names from the tags.
Yes, Apple could have made it easier, i sharing music had been a primary aim of the iPod. It wasn't. The iPod is a device for letting you to listen to your music collection while mobile. It can also act as a mass storage device for transferring files between people.
There was no reason to make sharing music trivial, because 99% of the target audience do not have music collections that are either in the public domain or for which they own the distribution rights. When it came to a choice between adding a feature that would be of no (legal) use to 99% of their users, or extending the battery life by making the searching easier in the first iPods, they chose the second one. Unlike Microsoft, however, they did not add any technical hurdles preventing people who did own the distribution rights to their music collections from copying them off. They do not apply DRM to music that does not come with DRM. There are no technical copy protection mechanisms that prevent you from extracting the music without violating the DMCA. The only thing stopping you copying the music to your friends is the law.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Clearly, you should know what you're talking about before posting.
ITunes does not add DRM, nor does it require DRM. It doesn't lock your music when copying it to the iPod.
Since you've clearly not tried this yourself, you should find and slap whoever told you this is the case.
ron lussier / lenscraft / fine art giclee prints/ sausalito / ca
The iPod enjoys a HUGE ecosystem of accessories. Lots of devices from mini-systems to automobiles support the iPod dock connector - that's powerful.
One of the criteria for my next car is that it either supports the iPod natively, or it has the ability to have that feature added (i.e - easily replaceable radio).
I bought an iPod for the accessory ecosystem - and now that I'm and iPod owner, I only buy products from that ecosystem - it's a positive feedback loop.
That's a big reason why the iPod is so popular.
-ted
I didn't say that it did. I said that it made copying files back off onto an arbitary computer awkward, so the DRM'd stuff looks less bad in comparison. As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you want to copy a particular track onto a friend's machine you have a choice of the "official" way, which means "authorising" your iPod for their copy of iTunes (or is it the other way round; I always get confused by that...) or the unofficial way, which means being able to navigate to a hidden folder and then identify the file you're looking for from its deliberately munged filename. Oh, and you'll need third-party software to restore the filename to something human-readable.
Compare and contrast to an iPod running Rockbox, or any other "proper" MP3 player, where you plug it in under pretty much any OS, it shows up as a drive and you just copy the files you want on and off of it. Apple may say they maintain this system as a "legacy", but they are quick enough to drop all "legacy" support in, say, Quicktime, if they think it'll force users to upgrade and thus invalidate their "Pro" licences so they have to pay again.
The fact that a sizeable number of Slashdot posters still think the iPod is successful because of "hype" explains why a sizeable number of Slashdot posters will never be as successful as Steve Jobs.
I am a believer of momentum and curves.
It is a workaround, and it could certainly have been done in a smarter way. I personally keep a copy of FooBar2000 on my ipod, with a playlist containing all songs. If I want to copy files to another comp or to the ipod, I use Foobar.
A royal pain in the ass, and a good reason to upgrade my pod to Rockbox
What?
yes the ipod has a nice interface, but i don't like the prices or the dependancy on itunes. My 4 year old creative zen plays well with media player and windows explorer. I recently dropped at the airport. first time i had it out of its protective case and within 30 min, wham. goodbye 40 GB hard drive. oh well, got an 80 GB on new egg for $50, 5 min replacement, reformat and voila, doubled. Anyway, i only use about 50% of my zen for music, gets a lot of use as a portable drive. don't really need a slick interface, just big storage cheap. and it plays music. i win.
Back in 2002 I bought a Compact Flash based MP3 player. FAT format, looks like a usb drive. cp in linux works. A card reader worked well too. And my camera uses CF cards too. I would still be using it except....
Fast forward to 2007. I rip *all* my CDs to make a jukebox (~450 and ~ 5000 songs). I decided I want to carry them all for me. It's almost 30GB. So I search for a 40GB+ MP3 player. There are not many choices. Archos looks very cool. An 80GB iPod is cheaper and larger (I don't care about video so much). Toshiba Gigabeat isn't much cheaper. I have a gift card too.
So I got an iPod. If I want an accessory, there are lots to choose from. Lots of inexpensive leftovers too.. Lots of alternatives to iTunes. And I have all my music with me.
The only thing I'm really disappointed with is thatI can't just cp files over. I have to use something that deals with the itunesDB in the iPod. However, with 30GB of music, a database makes sense plus it lets me have multiple index to organize (album, artist, genre, rating, etc)
The crux of the matter here is your automatic assumption that only "legal" sharing should be considered. But I'm willing to bet that a large proportion of that 99% of users *would* like to share their music, regardless of the legality. I doubt that adding it would bloat the interface/complexity notably. And Apple aren't responsible for their users' misuse of their products, and they are in the business of selling players, so why wouldn't they include it?
The obvious answer is that the record industry, who they want to cooperate with them, wouldn't like it. Certainly, the functionality is there, but it's nowhere as easy as it might be, and that in itself will stop a lot of people using it. Which is probably the intention...
It's not as bad as DRM, but it still comes from the same mindset.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Weak, name obscuring DRM is still DRM.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
And if you want to pull your music off without any tools then, actually, iTunes will help you do that.
1) Put the iPod in harddrive mode
2) in iTunes go into the options and choose a temp directory as your "music directory"
3) while your in the options dialog, make sure "Have iTunes organize my music and copy to music directory" is checked (it will organize it in this temp directory)
4) Import the hidden music directory on the iPods harddrive into iTunes. 5) Voila! iTunes will create every directory and rename every file and copy it to your temp directory, even the encrypted mPa's. Use QTFairuse for those.
I only mod up parents of "mod parent up" posts...
like a keyboard and mouse are legacy equipment
somethings you get rid of because they aren't needed anymore and there is a better way
other things you never get rid of because they ARE AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN COMPONENT
a fucking RADIO. 50 fucking cents of circuitry. no needed user interface changes
the added usefulness and value of radio, even when considering the value of radio from the point of view of the biggest radio hater: still worth it by orders of magnitude!
talk radio, civil emergencies, sampling different musical tastes, getting to know the culture of a place you are visiting, news and traffic, something like the bbc: THE LIST IS ENDLESS. AND VALID. AND WORTH 50 CENTS OF CIRCUITRY!
to not have a radio on an iPod, i cannot think of that oversight in any other terms except in terms of being downright stupid. you have not provided me with a valid rationale, in the least
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Cranky Old Man Rant about electronics design and "WTF are they thinking?":
Well, maybe you are actually old.... but using netspeak terms like "WTF" casts a shadow of doubt.
OMFG, it looks like a Partidge Family lunch box...
Again, the "OMFG" might be evidence you're faking being old, but if you know who the Partridge Family was, then that's certainly compelling evidence.
Get off my lawn, you kids.
Confirmed.
- Those for which you own the distribution right (or have them explicitly granted to you with something like a CC or Free Software license).
- Those which are in the public domain.
If you picked an iPod at random, I doubt you would find any music that falls into either of these categories. Making it easy for their customers to break the law should not be the priority of any manufacturer. If you want to use the iPod to carry your band's music around, then you could just copy it across and use it as a mass storage device. If you want to use it for copyright infringement, then I don't expect you will find much sympathy anywhere. It's not as bad as DRM, but it still comes from the same mindset. Not at all. DRM is about preventing things that you are legally allowed to do. This is about not making it easier to do things that you are not legally allowed to do. Do you complain if you buy a car and it doesn't come with a radar jammer so you can avoid speeding fines? What about if you buy a crowbar, and it doesn't come with instructions for housebreaking?I am TheRaven on Soylent News
First one replaced within a year, broken headphone jack. Replacement failed within 4 months bad hard drive, just out of warranty.
Loved it though, but I won't be buying another one. Too expensive for that crap.
2 year warranty, then maybe, otherwise yeah I'm going for a gigabeat next time.
Avoiding 'cool' items means you can get the same function for less money.
This is a good thing.
Blar.
Yep, the Cowon's are very good. I've owned an X5 since the week they hit the first market in 2005 (I did pay a premuim price for it) and it's worked flawless for me all that time. The sound quality kicks an iPod's ass, and the unit itself is quite rugged and durable as it has survived a lot of physical abuse.
These are also about the most "hackable" devices on the market too, as there are a lot of both hardware and software mods you can do to them. Go read the "iAudiophile" forums ( http://iaudiophile.net/forums for the user community comments and stuff. This brand of portable media players probably has the second largest following behind the Apple iPods. And for the true Slashdot geek, the iAudio model A2 does run a custom Linux as it's kernel (source available), and it's GUI is written with GTK+.
Dont get me wrong, I dont hate it, but there are 'features' that are just plain either anoying, or "duh stupid bug".
(4th G here)
1. Cannot play/listen to tracks while charging over USB. Stupid charging icon.
2. After a recharge/sync, it looses the last song played position, so if I just turn it on and hit play, it does so from #1 of nnnn
3. PodCasts dont auto play next, while songs do.
4. with orig battery, battery warning was too late, rather than earlier, as it should say "1 hour left, not 60seconds left"
new battery is much better long lasting btw too.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
"Only in terms of its interface? You say this like it is something trivial."
This is were command-line junkies hang out. If you can't operate the MP3 player using the command line, then they don't want it.
"Got any evidence for that one, or are you just making stuff up?"
Earbuds make you go deaf, faster.
Just like the Zune, any non-iPod device is something you only show to your very closest friends, amongst nervous laughter, as you explain to them the embarrassing chain of events that led you to buying it.
Not always the case. If you have valid reasons, a wise purchase isn't hidden. Here on Slashdot I have mentioned several times I bought an MP3 player. My shopping list included;
1 Cheap Players break, get lost and stolen. Keep loss low by having low investment cost
2 OS agnostic
3 Standard file types
4 Recording
5 Radio
6 Expandible if small
7 Small, use standard batteries
Result;
1 Under $40
2 USB plug and play flash device, driverless under Windows, Mac, Linux, or any USB capible OS.
3 MP3 & WMA playback MP3 for recording
4 Mic and FM Recording at various bitrates
5 FM Radio
6 SD card slot 512 Meg built in. A cheap 2 Gig SD card makes it very usable.
7 Small. Runs on single AAA battery. I use rechargables.
Brand Coby.
With the Zune, you pay as much as an iPod but don't get the dock interface and get a huge brick. I would hide if I bought a Zune. Other than squirting, (limited value) you gain little and lose a lot. Put the Zune and iPod and Zune against the above shopping list. A 30 Gig HD would be nice, but would have cut battery life and made the player larger.
The truth shall set you free!
Oh yeah, THAT'S a real compelling feature...
Anyway, I just want music and iTunes is NOT a positive feature. With these vendors I can get all the function I want, and avoid the Apple Tax!
Blar.
do you suffer from where you think you know and own all the music you will ever want to listen to in your life
not that pop music stations will satisfy your cravings, but you apparently live in some alien planet where there are no alternative local stations
what a static, dead way to think about music. a true lover of music is always sampling new things. i frankly don't know what kind of music listener you are, but you seemed to have lost your passion in life
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
those 100m people if they could have a radio on their iPod, with no change to the form factor or ui, for 50 cents more, 99m would say "yes please"
it is just a glaring retarded oversight on apple's part
and yes, apple is totally crushing the opposition
"they wanted to keep margins high, costs down, simplicity up, battery life up, and usability up"
are you really telling me 50 cents of radio circuitry would change any of those things?!
you think maybe if they put a radio on for 50 cents more of circuitry and no change to form factor/ ui/ battery/ etc. that they wouldn't just crush the opposition, they would obliterate it?
it's just so fucking retarded to leave out a radio
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
To be honest, I can't remember the last time I listened to "the radio".
Especially commercial radio. There's nothing out there that's worth listening to (thank you ClearChannel). And I don't need commercial radio for news -- NPR and the Internet fill that gap very nicely.
(If you like talk radio, well, whatever, that's your business. I always found it an annoying waste of time, regardless of the show.)
In fact, the only radio station I listen to these days is on the other side of my current continent. It's as non-commercial as they get, and I get my fix through streaming and podcasts. (I hope it lasts, I hope it lasts...)
I'm very glad the iPod has NO radio at all. Hell, my car radio is tuned 99% of the time to the station supported by the FM transmitter I use with my iPod.
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
the "i'm too good for radio" snob
as if there were no alternative stations or public radio/ bbc where you live
distant relative of the "i'm too good to watch television" snob
whatever ego crutch you need to feel superior dude
(rolls eyes)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The exact same thing applies to blank cassette tapes. Were TDK evil and Apple morally superior because the former once sold a very high percentage of their products (cassettes) to people who wanted to pirate music? If you want to use the iPod to carry your band's music around, then you could just copy it across and use it as a mass storage device. If you want to use it for copyright infringement, then I don't expect you will find much sympathy anywhere. That as may be, lots of companies sell products whose primary use is likely to be piracy. Sony (ironically) sold Hifis with double cassette decks.
I expect to see you getting high and mighty with those companies for not failing to live up to Apple's high moral standards.
Except that (assuming they omitted the feature because it had little "legal" use) Apple probably acted for political reasons, not because they were acting as a moral policeman. DRM is about preventing things that you are legally allowed to do. The proponents might argue otherwise. What about if you buy a crowbar, and it doesn't come with instructions for housebreaking? Outside of a (very) few exceptions and contrived examples, there is no legal form of housebreaking, so the situation isn't the same. This is about not making it easier to do things that you are not legally allowed to do. Do you complain if you buy a car and it doesn't come with a radar jammer so you can avoid speeding fines? No, but you've given me a very good example.
Do *you* complain that GM, Ford and friends sell cars that allow people to break the legal speed limit? After all, 99% of these cars will never be driven outside the country or on private land, so there's no reason for them to provide any level of performance beyond the legal speed limit.
And you're missing the point. Most companies don't act as policemen unless they're legally obliged to or if it's in their interest. In Apple's case, it's the latter- I believe that they *have* reduced functionality in their product that they would otherwise have probably included.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
i can't think of anything it is basically useful for in an undisuteable way (smacks forehead) ...i think the "i am too cool to use radio" crowd is kind of a distant cousin of this loser
some people must have some really fragile egos to need this sort of sense of superiority as an ego crutch
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The Cowon A2 runs Linux and you can even get the source code for it's O/S.
As far as I can remember, yes you can.
Sony ha
Apple fan-boys who wanted to discredit iPod competitors.
without buying if you have no radio?
i myself have ventured into stuff like armin van buuren and ayumi hamasaki, but i do this via piracy. my tastes are extremely eclectic: filipino music from the big band era, soca music from barbados, swedish disco being my latest endeavours
but what i apparently have that you don't is enough security not to feel all snobby about local pop music
to shit on local radio to me is not a sign of music connoisseurship, it's a sign of an ego problem. if you really are an eclectic listener, american pop fills that eclectic galaxy up just as much as rin. to a true music lover, radio isn't something to avoid, it is a wonderful opportunity to get more of that good music. to turn your nose up at radio is just a sign of some retarded ego flaw. when i say justin timberlake, a snob with an ego problem rolls his eyes. a ture music lover smiles in appreciation. a true music lover appreciates it all
so lose the attitude, snob. it makes you out to be an insecure little person, not a true music connoisseur
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
apple wants to kill radio
;-)
a power play
awesome
thanks for that insight, mod parent up!
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
That's great my iPod takes me more than half way there, I paid £180 for it!
it is even more sad to come in as some sort of emotion adequacy police
this entire site slashdot is people getting emotional about things which would strike the majority as trivial
so if you can't get with that program, i suggest you leave slashdot and never come back. because you don't get it
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
another guy ventured a good reason why apple would do something so retarded as to leave out radio: a power play. apple is actually trying to not so much kill radio as bully it
so yes, darling, it is, always was, and always will be retarded to leave radio off the ipod in terms of cost (small) versus added value (huge) for ipod users. braindead obviously stupid from the user's standpoint
but at least someone out there understands a good reason why apple would do such a thing from a business standpoint, and that person is not you
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
and proud of it
and i still think it is much better to be an honest proud asshole than a hypocritical music snob
(and no darling, that's not me, that's the guy i was responding to)
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Unfortunately, your experience seems to be pretty typical among all brands of MP3 players. I just bought an MP3 player, and I did a lot of web surfing of owner reviews. Seemed like iPod owners had far fewer complaints and Apple has one of the best warranties--1 year vs 90 days for most players. I ended up getting a Creative Zen, the price was too good to pass up. I'm hoping they've tightened the quality control on the newer models...
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
It is if you're a rail commuter.
A 2" screen at 12" away isn't that bad. It's only slightly smaller, in terms of FOV, than a 36" TV viewed at 15', which I think is fairly typical for most non-geek, non-home-theater people.
Some cocktail-napkin math:
FOV of an iPod screen: 2*arctan(1/12) ~= 9.5 degrees
FOV of an "average"-ish TV: 2*arctan(18/180) ~= 11.4 degrees
The factor of 2 is in there, along with half of the screen size, because in the case of the iPod in particular, I think the distance is too small for the "small angle approximation" to really apply. But arctan(2/12) isn't terrible, either.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
it's not name obscuring DRM, it's hashing to allow the older ipods to do things that the CPU needed a little help with due to being slow. It's still there due to legacy.
Me I prefer the keychain size for convenience AV. So much stuff, only so much pocket.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
you giant asshole
(snicker)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The part where I'd want to play MP3. For the $50 difference with the 30GB model I'd rather have a Cowan A2 that will play formats I'm actually likely to use, as well as have a much larger screen and video out.
The Farewell Tour II
What system are you using in your car? I had the Alpine ipod compatible deck but it barely shows any useful information.
For bonus points give us some info on your home setup... sounds cool.
Ok, it's May 29th... where's my DRM-free EMI content on iTunes? I've been looking every day and I've yet to see any. They said in May... well they have 2 days.
"Marketing" doesn't really have a perfectly precise, universally accepted definition. Usually when we non-specialists refer to it, we refer to only one aspect of the discipline, which is promotion. However, practicioners see themselves as being involved in a variety of activities:" market research, new product development, product life cycle management, pricing, channel management as well as promotion." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing#Definition s].
These processes are probably too diverse to be practically contained under one discipline. However, one common theme of how marketing is applied in each of these areas is obtaining and using an understanding of the customers' needs and motivations.
It is only in the promotion stage this this becomes something potentially sinister.
I imagine most marketing people, when called upon to craft a promotional campaign, would like to have a better product than they are usually given. If you have a product that doesn't match what people want or need, you have to convince people to buy it nonetheless. That is when what you call "creating value in the minds of consumers" comes into play. It's an ethically questionable activity: taking somebody who is perfectly happy and making him dissatisfied -- for your own personal gain.
It boils down to this: most businesses don't do a very good job at what they do. They're constantly calling on various disciplines such as engineering for quick fixes to bad decisions, instead of calling on them in order to make good decisions. Most engineers, excepting a fortunate few, know exactly what I am talking about. The difference is that when you call too late upon marketing, you are calling them to do something which in most systems of ethics would be immoral.
My point is that in an ethical and well run business, the discipline of marketing can be as honorable as the discipline of engineering.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I find new music by talking to my friends or by going to shows. Usually the stuff that interests me doesn't even get played on the damn radio. (Oh, if you listen long enough they might play Regina Spektor, for instance, but not the old stuff, just the singles from the current album. Most artists, if they get airplay at all, it's usually just a very small number of their songs getting played over and over...) I'm not saying FM has no value - but if you feel like there's some kind of universal outcry for AM/FM to be built-in to iPods, you might need to rethink that.
For a more straightforward answer to your basic question - there's no point in adding a feature that most people have no interest in. It effectively adds no value to the product, but it increases manufacturing costs - so one way or another it reduces profit. (Either by raising the retail price, and thus impacting sales, or else decreasing profit margins without yielding a worthwhile boost in sales...)
I can't tell you that an FM receiver isn't a feature you need - because apparently it's something you really want to have. For that reason I also won't presume to say that the iPod is a product you need to own. You telling me that an FM receiver is something I do need is equally ridiculous.
---GEC
I'm but the humble pupil, seeking to snatch the scratchbuilt pebble from the master's fully articulated hand
I am on my fourth iPod, fifth if you count the one that I replaced because (I thought) it was stolen. I am using the 8GB iPod Nano because:
* Smallest size/weight to storage space ratio I can find.
* Flash-based.
* Decent UI.
* Nice, durable case that can survive in my pocket.
* Can play most MP3s I throw at it. (Sometimes has issues with newer standards like ID3v2.)
* Great battery life.
I don't like it because (but this is not enough to discourage me from buying one):
* Need to use iTunes or another software app just to upload files. (I can still get them back, however. They're right there, as MP3s with tags.)
* Color display is useless to me, but requires backlight to be visible. I prefer the old greyscale display that I could read without the backlight.
I'm sure I'm forgetting more for both lists, but these are the main ones.
Rockbox makes the iPod behave like I want it to, except for the fact that now I can't charge it with my wall adapter :P
Nomad Jukebox 3 was my all-time fav with regard to features, functionality & sound quality. .WAV recording/playback & recorded/played for hours upon hours with dual batteries.
This thing was damn near Pro-Quality sounding, I used it a as a location recorder for recording live shows.
It had a kick ass 3rd party app (redchair software?) and could do
Only thing was it's God Awful size/shape/footprint. It was like an ugly obese CD Walkman, hard to hold, klunky, heavy, etc.
If only that player was in a small handheld size, I'd buy it again.
iTunes doesn't have DRM in it. The iTunes music store does. iTunes is just an MP3 playing piece of software that CONNECTS to a service that sells "DRM-piece of shit" music, SHOULD YOU ALLOW/CHOOSE IT TO.
iTunes has DRM in it - how do you think it knows how to play files from the iTunes Music Store? Magic? It's much like the DRM in Mindows Vista. It's there, it won't interfere with non-DRM'd content, and if you stay away from DRM'd content it's effectively not even present. But to say it's not there at all is simply false.
I commute via bus or train for about 2 hours a day. I also like TV but prefer to watch it when I cannot be doing something else. I also can't concentrate on a book, newspaper or magazine in a noisy environment such as a bus. I also carry about 20 lbs. of textbooks, notebooks and a laptop on most days or a purse crammed with stuff other times. That 2" screen you mock? It's perfect for me and the literally millions of other people just like me. HAHA, that stupid Apple, making a small (I CANNOT emphasize that enough), easy to use and generally robust device that does exactly what I want, how I want, and where I want! Dummies!
Everything I have from my DVR is already formatted for the iPod or I can run a pig-simple conversion app while I sleep and synch when I get ready in the morning. I am such an idiot for getting an easy to use, featured enough for my needs and cheap device that does whst I need easily! I could kick myself!
I just flew for about 20 hours to get to Asia from the US midwest. My iPod ran out of juice after the 3.5 hr flight from Chicago to San Francisco and 4 episodes of The Shield. Upon landing, I popped into a Brookstone and snagged a $20 accessory and $20 worth of AA batteries and was able to entertain myself through turbulence until I got to my final destination. 2" screen wasn't a problem - I am farsighted and have glasses.
If I want a big screen to catch all the visual detail, I have a TV or can go to the movies. If I want something good enough to keep me entertained when I'm in transit that isn't cumbersome, you bet your ass a 2" screen is a compelling feature.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
The "windows explorer" interface that people such as yourself insist on being so "intuitive" took over 3 hours to find and drag every song from the file system to fill it from a particular playlist.
Back before the iPod Shuffle came out I was using iTunes smart playlists to create a "shuffle" playlist for my flash MP3 player, and just selected the whole playlist and dragged it onto the MP3 player.
Why make work for yourself?
That's a bit weird. I didn't buy my wall adapter until after I'd installed Rockbox, and it works fine. There is a small quirk, though; it takes between three and five minutes for the iPod to realise it's there and put up the "Battery Charging" screen. Have you just been too impatient?
I meant it doesn't "have DRM" in the sense that it applies it to everything, or that is can even GENERATE DRM'd tracks. It can merely play DRM-locked files. I overstated the point.
For the love of $diety, please wear a helmet and decent riding gear. Helmet wearing was the difference between my sister-in-law living and her husband dying in a motorcycle accident last August.
Well, you can use rhythmbox, amarok, gtkpod, and others. You're not solely limited to iTunes.
Or MediaMonkey under Windows.
What's the problem with that? You're not forced to use iTunes.