No OLPCs for Cuba, Ever

An anonymous reader writes "In a move going largely unnoticed by developers, the OLPC project now requires all submissions to be hosted in the RedHat Fedora project. While this may not seem like a big deal, the implications are interesting. First, contributors have to sign the Fedora Project Individual Contributor License Agreement. By being forced to submit contributions to the Fedora repository they automatically fall under the provisions of US export law. So, no OLPC for Cuba, Syria and the like. Ever."

Comments

for always and eternity

[stoolpigeon]

because US laws and export restrictions never change. ever.

Re:for always and eternity

[eln]

They probably won't change during the useful life of the OLPC. The US still is under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change in these countries. Even though they haven't worked at all (and in fact have only served to further entrench the regimes in question) over the more than 40 years they've been in place, we're still convinced that if we keep them around just a little bit longer, democracy will flourish.

Like John Stewart said, we've given up trying to kill Castro with food poison, now we're trying to kill him with "old age poison." If we wait long enough, the regimes will eventually fall, and we can then claim it was all because of the embargo.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

As the Fedora link says:

Please note: this list is subject to change.

Meanwhile, it's almost July. Has OLPC shipped a single one of the 50 billion jillion units they've been insisting they were going to sell this year?

Re:for always and eternity

[EveryNickIsTaken]

The UN still is under the impression that sanctions... Fixed your typo. Unless you're under the impression that the US has complete and total control of the security council suddenly.

Re:for always and eternity

[bloobloo]

It's the US that has the draconian embargoes. In the civilized world we can visit Cuba etc.

Re:for always and eternity

[UnHolier than ever]

Only the US maintains an embargo towards Cuba. It never asked the Security Council to do so.

Re:for always and eternity

[eln]

I know we like to blame the UN for everything here at Slashdot, but the embargo against Cuba was enacted by President Kennedy in 1961, with the total travel ban enacted in 1963. The UN certainly has its hands in a lot of useless sanctions, but to pretend the UN is responsible for the Cuba situation, or that the US does not exert tremendous influence over the UN, is just flat wrong.

Re:for always and eternity

[speaker of the truth]

If Cuba wants the embargo lifted they need to provide cheap labor like China does. After all, China commits terrible atrocities and yet we continue to trade with them for our cheap electronics. Cuba on the other hand, not so bad in recent times, but they only give us cigars so we keep the embargo.

Re:for always and eternity

[EveryNickIsTaken]

The US still is under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change in these countries. My response was directed at that statement, not the Cuba situation specifically.

Re:for always and eternity

[spisska]

The UN still is under the impression that sanctions...

Fixed your typo. Unless you're under the impression that the US has complete and total control of the security council suddenly.

Nope. The embargo on Cuba is purely a US matter. There was a time when the US could bully plenty of Central and South American countries into honoring it, but the US is pretty much alone these days. Neither the UN nor the UN Security Council has ever had an embargo on Cuba.

Re:for always and eternity

[Rogerborg]

The UN still is under the impression that sanctions...

Fixed your typo. Unless you're under the impression that the US has complete and total control of the security council, just like it always has.

Fixed your typo.

Re:for always and eternity

[stoolpigeon]

No - if Cuba wants the embargo lifted - they need to persuade the politically strong Cuban-American groups that work so hard to keep the embargo in place. This issue, like so many others - has deeper roots and issues than your humorous comment allows.

Re:for always and eternity

[Martin Blank]

The trade embargo with Cuba is US-specific, and the nearly-complete embargoes (such as those with Iran and Syria) are often also US-specific. Europe and Canada trade fairly freely with the island nation, and Russia sells plenty of military gear to both Iran and Syria.

There are places where economic embargoes, or the threat thereof, may have significant benefit. Libya's acquiesence to UN demands regarding the Lockerbie suspects and checmical and nuclear programs probably came about in part due to economic pressures that prevented foreign companies from investing significantly in its oil fields. And Iran instituted fuel rationing a couple of days ago in response to threat of embargo of gasoline trade into the country in an attempt to build up reserves in anticipation of trade sanctions. Iran has extremely limited refining capabilities, and so imports around a third of its gasoline, and then subsidizes it to 20% of its market price. The response was the destruction of several fuel stations, some small riots, and a very divided and irritated parliament taking up the issue.

However, in order for trade embargoes to really work, they usually have to be nearly universal, though even then there is no guarantee. North Korea is a prime example here, where the leaders keep such a tight lid on the people that they don't fear uprisings, while they live in comfort that their people can barely even dream about. However, recent targeting of leadership assets overseas has brought pressure there that tangible results (a scheduled shutdown of DPRK's reactor in July) may be coming about.

Re:for always and eternity

[Ucklak]

Cuba will be a nice place to visit when Castro dies - after private citizens can own property, build businesses and such.
The embargo also shows how lackadaisical the majority of the Cuban people (that stayed) are. Nice people but will just kinda go with the flow with whatever.
For the most part, the US embargo really did nothing as Cuba was fine until the fall of communism in the Soviet Union.

Re:for always and eternity

[Schnoogs]

I didn't realize China imported Soviet nukes and placed them 100 miles off of the coast of the US. Oh wait they didnt.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

I just wanted to have a go at the UN There, fixed your typo for you.

Re:for always and eternity

[Ice Wewe]

because US laws and export restrictions never change. ever.

They won't change unless there is someone in the Whitehouse who isn't too busy doing the "LA LA LA, I can't hear the Commies off the Florida coast..." to change the stupid law.

We trade with China, what's the big deal? Other than dirt cheap [often low quality] products, I fail to see the difference.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

Untrue. Export regulations evolve at a snail's pace, but they do change. For instance, Libya was removed from the list of embargoed terrorist-supporting nations in 2006. (This was after decades of restrictions, though.) http://www.bakerbotts.com/file_upload/LibyaUpdate- CommerceDepartmentLiftsAnti-TerrorismExportControl s.htm

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

A few billion people? A semi-capitalistic economy?

Re:for always and eternity

[nelsonal]

Miami, the party that reverses the embargo can count on losing the Cuban vote in Florida for at least a couple of elections, and with races as tight as they've been for as long as they've been Florida is pretty crucial to the presidency. There aren't a couple hundred thousand (million?) Chinese anti-communists living in an important swing state.

Re:for always and eternity

[SengirV]

Sorry, but the days of the US exerting influence over matters of importance are pretty much over. When the majority of the nations want countries like Syria and Iran on the security council, the whole point of the UN turns into a big joke.

US out of the UN!!!!

Re:for always and eternity

[i]

No. Not necessarely at least.
When Castro dies, his brother Ramon will take over. And he is a stalinist-type communist.

Fidel himself was not a (pure) communist from the beginning, but as Cuba was isolated by USA after the revolution he had to go to Soviet for help (economical and other).
And by that the regime went to communism.

Re:for always and eternity

[MontyApollo]

I believe there are items exempted from this embargo, and particular items can be exempted on a case by case basis. Congress would not have to revoke the law, just add another exception to it.

Re:for always and eternity

[ShieldW0lf]

As a Canadian, I like the trade embargo.

It means there's a nice warm international vacation destination with no Americans.

Now, that's something that money just can't buy.

Re:for always and eternity

[rifter]

because US laws and export restrictions never change. ever.

When it comes to Cuba, that's pretty much a given. Cuba has vowed to keep their current system in perpetuity and the US has vowed never to lift the embargoes as long as that is the case. That impasse is enforced by the Cuban expatriates and disgruntled corporations on the US side and the Castros and people with deep distrust of the US on the Cuban side. Not only is neither side budging, they aren't even discussing, or daring to suggest that they might consider, the possibility of change.

Re:for always and eternity

[WED Fan]

When Castro dies, his brother Ramon will take over.

I thought his brother was Raul?

By the way, did you ever wonder what happened to the other Castro Brothers?

• Chico - Working at a small garage in Havana keeping all the '58 Chevy's runny. And, installing the little nodding dogs in the back window
• Ramone - Last seen doing a drag impersonation of his older brother Fidel in a Miami club
• Harpo - Makes the best Mohitos in Ft. Lauderdale, doesn't talk much
• Julio (now Conchita) - Works a corner in New York City
• Juan - Was standing against a wall, when an entire line of soldiers, cleaning their weapons, accidentally shot him. This had nothing to do with an argument he had with his younger brother Fidel, the night before, about who played the best Darren on "Bewitched"
• Raymondo - Fled Cuba after painting the slogan "Dick York Lives" on the side of Fidel's prized Bel Air sedan

Re:for always and eternity

[TheMeuge]

The US still is under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change in these countries.

And this impression is absolutely right. As the sanctions damage the economies of the countries in question and perpetuate the strife, the regimes do and will continue to change: from anti-US, aggressive, and violent... to MORE anti-US, MORE aggressive and MORE violent.

Re:for always and eternity

[Volante3192]

To think the US has control of the security council is naive. No country has any power in the security council for the most part. Security Council requires unanimous decisions, and the US is always at odds with someone else in the Sec Council. During the Cold War, it was the USSR, and now it's China (and Russia still somewhat).

Fun times had by all...

Re:for always and eternity

[nomadic]

It means there's a nice warm international vacation destination with no Americans.

We're not so bad...

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it had something to do with the Russian nukes he had pointed at us! Not to mention killing and imprisioning people that wanted to exercise free speach.

Re:for always and eternity

[Shivetya]

Russia doesn't need a stable Middle East so they can afford to trade with countries that actually compete with it in energy production without fear of unbalancing the region, hell its in their best interest to have an unbalanced region.

Cuba never had anything valuable other than location for Russia, ICBMs made it irrelevant long ago

Re:for always and eternity

[profplump]

No, nobody thinks the embargoes will work anymore. Most people didn't even think they would work 40 years ago. But stopping the embargoes would be an admission that we've been wrong for the last 40 years, and there's not a politician alive who would do that.

I'm pretty sure the plan for the last 20 years or so has been to wait for Castro to die and take whatever sort of political change happens -- even if it's just a new dictator -- as evidence that the embargo was successful and therefore no longer necessary. It's just the Castro won't die.

Re:for always and eternity

[Floritard]

Ha ha very funny. But don't forget Canada. It's all fun and games until we run out of lumber!

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

And of course you don't also mind your non-American vacation coming at the costs of Cubans under their oppressive government. I'm sure you wouldn't have any problem switching places with the Cubans :) You could still have your problem with Americans!

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

We treat Cuba like we do because I believe Castro ordered the assassination of Kennedy.

Re:for always and eternity

[Ryan Amos]

Oh, we here in the US can visit Cuba as well, we just have to fly to Mexico first.

The US embargo of Cuba is not something people in the US take seriously. One of the "perks" of going to Mexico is bringing back a bottle of Cuban rum or a box of cigars. Most of us are mystified why the embargo wasn't lifed in 1991; engagement works better against communism than isolation (see: China.)

Re:for always and eternity

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

That's hilarious, really. Almost as funny as saying something like, "Boy, I'd be really happy if there weren't any Chinese allowed on the bus I take to work." Or perhaps, "Say, those Poles sure do smell bad. Let's wipe them off the face of the Earth."

It's great that prejudice like that is so accepted on Slashdot but I am sick and tired of it. Why don't you keep your hate speech to yourself?

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

SengirV out of the US!!!!

Re:for always and eternity

[jeffasselin]

Thinking about trade embargoes, I am suddenly reminded of Foundation. About how the Mercantile empire of the Foundation eventually led to an association and absorption into the Second Empire.

We are past the time when the US had a technological or manufacturing advantage over other countries, but maybe if they'd stopped their protectionist tendencies...

Re:for always and eternity

[jasen666]

Right. I think submitter was a bit dramatic.
And what will actually stop people in Cuba from downloading this? I'm sure they'll be able to find it on Bittorrent, foreign sites, FTP's, etc. Export restrictions on software (or most other IP) are completely unenforceable.

Re:for always and eternity

[eln]

The embargo was enacted in 1961. The Cuban Missile Crisis (the "Russian nukes he had pointed at us") didn't happen until October 1962.

Re:for always and eternity

[pembo13]

idiot

Re:for always and eternity

[orasio]

Anyhow, the embargo works.
Right now, there are some good and bad things in Cuba.
You get decent health care and a good education, but no car, bad food, bad paid jobs and stuff (a lot of bad stuff, in fact).
Let's not talk about lack of freedom of speech, executions without trial, or with fake trials, because that is not inherent to Cuba and its regime.
If Cuba was allowed to trade freely, there would be a possibility that life in Cuba would be better (or not, of course), and that could be perceived as their system not being thaaat bad (of course, it wouldn't prove anything, but perception is key), and fighting communism outside of the US wouldn't seem that obviously necessary.

Re:for always and eternity

[dilinger]

Much better than, "Hey, let's refuse to do business with Cubans!"

Lighten up, dumbass.

Re:for always and eternity

[Kirgin]

Cuba has oil now(always there I guess)...lots of it. Potentially as much as Venezuela. Canada is helping develop these oil fields. Currently Cuba's national demand is 10 million tons of oil, they are producing 6 million tons...4 years ago they were producing next to nothing. So in 4 more years Cuba will have an oil surplus.

With a oil surplus, a thirsty European Union and 2 of the most advanced refineries in the world(Canada)that can process its sulphur rich oil, they will be buying brand new Lenovo laptops from China :P.

Re:for always and eternity

[neildiamond]

I'm a Canuck who's lived in the US for the most part. I find the anti-American thing really odd actually. Sure many Americans are a-holes, but Canadians rarely know where most of the a-holes are from and assume we all wanted Bush "running" the country. I found it really funny when Buffalo was in the Stanley Cup and my Canadian friends were cheering on Dallas!?! Dallas couldn't even sell out their Stanley Cup games and is also more or less where GWB is from (along with many other A-holes). My relatives constantly pick on the US, but when given chances to take jobs in California they jumped on that in a second. They all assume we're super rich. (Not even close, especially compared to some of them.) There's a strange jealousy going on. I'd rather be living in Canada for many reasons myself (health care, clean air, 4 seasons, winter sports). But if Canada is so much better, why do people constantly feel the need to put down Americans to make themselves feel better? Pretty pathetic actually. Oh and by the way, Canadians aren't any better at geography. My 60-year-old Aunt (who is a teacher and has lived near Toronto her whole life) thought that Buffalo, NY was 1 hour or so away from NYC. Come on! Then again, my relatives make me want to sever all ties to Canada. I want to go on vacation anywhere they aren't going! They can have Cuba. ;)

Re:for always and eternity

[morgan_greywolf]

The embargoes do nothing to prevent U.S. citizens from visiting Cuba. They only prevent people from exporting items to Cuba or importing them from Cuba. Tourism is entirely unaffected.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

And of course you don't also mind your cheap Walmart/Bestbuy shopping coming at a cost to the Chinese people under their oppressive government.

There, fixed it for you.

Re:for always and eternity

[Khuffie]

Wow. Your basing your whole belief on Canadians not being any better at geography than Americans by the fact that your aunt couldn't tell how far apart two cities in a single state are? The stereotype about Americans not being good about Geography comes from when they think places like Kuwait are in Texas or can't point to England on the map, not about knowledge of specific cities within a country.

Re:for always and eternity

[pravuil]

Even with or without embargoes it will depend whether or not how popular the US is overseas. Bad image means the oversea consumers will think twice before using American products. Unfortunately, the overseas markets are emerging at an alarming rate and things will get more competitive over time. If a company isn't adaptive they might just go under.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL Boy some mods can make asshats of themselves.

Parent is right though. What if I went on vacation and said I was happy that there were no Canadians around? or Japanese? or Germans? That would and should be modded down, like the OP should be!

Re:for always and eternity

[Colin Smith]

The US government still haven't got the connection between the middle class, wealth and democracy. Oh well.

Re:for always and eternity

[nomadic]

Miami, the party that reverses the embargo can count on losing the Cuban vote in Florida for at least a couple of elections, and with races as tight as they've been for as long as they've been Florida is pretty crucial to the presidency.

The Cuban vote in South Florida has always been solidly Republican, so I don't know if that makes that big a difference. In Miami the politicians basically run on who hates Castro more.

Re:for always and eternity

[TeknoHog]

When Castro dies, his brother Ramon will take over.

I thought his brother was Raul?

I'm sure it was Ramon, Hans's father. After all, the killer filesystem was developed for a communist OS ;)

Re:for always and eternity

[polar red]

Russia doesn't need a stable Middle East so they can afford to trade with countries So the US has no weapons trade with the middle east ?

Re:for always and eternity

[nomadic]

I'm pretty sure the plan for the last 20 years or so has been to wait for Castro to die and take whatever sort of political change happens -- even if it's just a new dictator -- as evidence that the embargo was successful and therefore no longer necessary. It's just the Castro won't die.

It doesn't really cost us that much to keep the trade embargo up; what are we missing from Cuba that we couldn't get elsewhere, outside of cigars? If Castro dies and it stays communist, we'd probably keep the embargoes up because there just isn't enough benefit to us for removing them.

Re:for always and eternity

[WindBourne]

The funny thing is that based on tests of students that come to America (who I would assume are better than average) vs. the average USA students, they were not that much better once they were off their continent. Europeans really did not know South east asia or South America that well at all. And North America? Just as bad as many Americans are at EU. ppl need to get off this better than thou bit.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

The US still is under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change

They are? I'm a US citizen, and I never gave my explicit consent, let alone volunteered my financial support, for government to have ANY power over voluntary trade with citizens of other nations. I can't even imagine what moral violation could possibly occur when two individuals, each living under the rule of a different government, decide voluntarily to engage in trade with each other, and without violating the rights of any other individual.

Ethically, I could never support the use of coercion to halt ANY voluntary human interation, including free trade.

Oh, wait, nevermind. I see what you really meant: the US government is still under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change. For a second there I actually figured you viewed society as one giant borg-like collective that thinks in unison!

Re:for always and eternity

[JasterBobaMereel]

Because US laws do not apply outside the US?

If China (where they are made) exports an OLPC to Cuba .. who exactly will prosecute and where?

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

And they probably would, as the OLPC is more likely to produce change in Cuba than the embargo is.

Re:for always and eternity

[The Lord of Chaos]

The moderators are are crack (well 50% anyway). This comment is not informative. These lost brothers don't exist, the parent poster was kidding.

Re:for always and eternity

[dosquatch]

The US was in a pissing match with the USSR. The embargo was enacted based on "the friend of our enemy is our enemy". The missles were from Russia, based more or less on "WTF do we have to lose?"

It is long time for this cold war bullshit to be over.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

SengirV out of the US!!!!

Just do 4 damage and he'll go away on his own ;-)

Re:for always and eternity

[cayenne8]

"Oh, we here in the US can visit Cuba as well, we just have to fly to Mexico first."

Err...I think if the US somehow officially finds out you went there, you can still get in a good bit of trouble upon your return to the US.

Re:for always and eternity

[Aqua_boy17]

Good luck with that.

If you've travelled abroad lately from the US, you know that the folks at Homeland Security take their jobs very seriously. Also, the State Department has been nailing US citizens who have visited Cuba without authorization with very stiff fines. When they do find out you've visited there from a 3rd country (and they will), expect a registered letter or summons to appear in federal court. It's happened to people I know. Fines and court fees can run in the thousands of dollars.

Cuban products are also considered contraband in the US and therefore are just as illegal as if you were smuggling pot or cocaine. If you are found with cuban made cigars, rum, etc. on your person that you have not declared, you can be detained, prosecuted, fined, and possibly jailed if you get a nasty prosecutor. Not at all worth it for an authentic mojito and a few cojibas IMHO.

Re:for always and eternity

[Gospodin]

With a oil surplus, a thirsty European Union and 2 of the most advanced refineries in the world(Canada)that can process its sulphur rich oil, they will be buying brand new Lenovo laptops from China :P.

If by "they" you mean Castro, his family, his extended harem, and his top military advisors, but not the other 99% of Cubans... then I quite agree. Sort of like, say, our good friend and ally Saudi Arabia.

Re:for always and eternity

[CastrTroy]

Couldn't Cuba just export no-label cigars to Mexico, and then people could be buying "mexican" cigars? Seems like it would be difficult to determine the origin of a cigar if there was no identifiable markings on it.

Re:for always and eternity

[mi]

No, they just need to return the confiscated real estate to their rightful owners and/or their kin.

As for China being a worse offender — yes, indeed. Although I doubt, China's "terrible attrocities" match Castro/Guevarra's per-capita, it was a black day, when Clinton gave China a preferred trade status — temporary at first, then permanent in 2000...

US media was applauding him, and the illiberal heavy-weights like New York Times even criticized the few lawmakers, who tried to prevent the bill on those pesky "human rights issues".

Anyway, whatever the situation with China is/was, Cuba is a horrible regime, and should be kept under the pile of bricks until it either changes or collapses.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

Middle class is bad for business, unless you need highly skilled and educated workforce... AND hypothetically couldn't import it from some overseas countries where local government heavily invests in high education of own youths.

Re:for always and eternity

[Grishnakh]

Actually, no, it shouldn't.

My wife and I have gone on several trips to Canada (specifically BC and Yukon). We were very happy there were no other Americans around, because even in the metropolis of Vancouver, most people are very friendly unlike in American cities. Actually, we did run across one total jerk; he was American.

So yes, I'm happy to go on vacation where there are no Americans around, and I am an American!

The plain and simple truth is that Americans tend far more often to be assholes than people in many other countries. This doesn't mean we're the only assholes; Muslim middle easterners and Pakistanis tend to be total assholes too (especially if you're female and they're male), but here in the Americas we're most noticeable because there's so many of us.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

"I believe it had something to do with the Russian nukes he had pointed at us!"

And the USA does not have any pointing back? So only one country is allowed to point nukes, hum?

Re:for always and eternity

[dharbee]

"In the civilized world we can visit Cuba etc."

So, what about Europeans? Can they visit Cuba too?

Re:for always and eternity

[Aqua_boy17]

Then you have the problem of proving their authenticity. Where I live it's close to the Carribean and there are already a ton of counterfeit made cojibas floating around, usually made in the Dominican Republic. Interestingly, the government doesn't pursue these counterfeiters very vigorously, probably because they think it just hurts Cuba.

Back on topic though, the blockade is stupid and should have been lifted years ago. The main reason it hasn't is the very conservative and very vocal Cuban exile community. I mean, we even fought a war with Viet Nam and we lifted our embargo and travel restrictions with them years ago.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that the main problem of Cuba is that they don't have something significant to trade. If US bans China... well, US will have a big impact on its economy. If US bans Venezuela, there will be consequences in oil prices. Cuba, well, has nothing to offer to bring the economy of the US down, and they have been blocked for so long that US is used to live without them.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

And do you see me boasting about that? Don't forget your wonderful Canadian Wallmart called Zellers. But of course it's Canadian so it's OK.

Re:for always and eternity

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

So what? The USA has military bases ALL OVER THE FUCKING WORLD. You have invaded more countries and participated in more military conflicts than any other country. Why is so wrong for Russia to have missiles pointing at you when you are doing the same?

I just have one word for you: Guantanamo.

Re:for always and eternity

[bonknasty]

Buffalo IS one hour or so away from NYC if you're going at 350 mph. What does your aunt drive?

Re:for always and eternity

[CastrTroy]

No, there was no war with Vietnam, it was a "police action". The Americans never actually declared war. I agree, though, the whole embargo is stupid. If Cuba had a bigger population, and more serious things to export than cigars, then the embargo would have been lifted a long time ago.

Re:for always and eternity

[Grishnakh]

China has nukes pointed at us. China also kills and imprisons people for trying to exercise free speech. Yet China is our most favored nation trading partner.

Not too smart, are you?

Re:for always and eternity

[dosquatch]

We treat Cuba like we do because Kennedy's ordered assassination of Castro failed.

Fixed it for ya.

Oh, damn, I didn't see the "don't feed the trolls" sign. Sorry.

Re:for always and eternity

[amper]

Actually, my experience has been entirely the opposite. In my travels through Europe, I found that Europeans, by and large, are quite rude when interacting in an impersonal manner. It's only when you get involved in one-on-one interactions that they become more friendly. Americans on the whole I find to be much more polite to strangers. I suppose it depends on the class of people you interact with more than anything else.

And for what it's worth, down at the Jersey Shore, they have quite a few choice things to say about the Canadian tourists...

Re:for always and eternity

[Grishnakh]

As mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, Cuba makes lots of sugar. However, ADM makes high-fructose corn syrup, and wouldn't be very happy if cheap sugar was imported from Cuba to compete with their HFCS.

Re:for always and eternity

[Kirgin]

lol, you do realize Castro's family was rich and was part of the ruling class in Cuba BEFORE the revolution. Same with Che Guevara's. Guess what plantation was the first one given over to the "people" Castro's mother's. Castro gave everything his family owned to the people.

Castro lives in a shack compared to the average upper middle class in the US.

When I say that children will get the best first in Cuba its just a continuation of their philosophy. Schools have better computers than banks in Cuba. If you aren't working you are in school in Cuba. They know its the best defense against being exploited again. You can't exploit a society thats smarter than yours.

What you need to do is assume everything you hear on Fox news is the opposite of how it is in Cuba.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

What gave you that idea? US citizens are banned from traveling to Cuba except for educational or humanitarian purposes. The fines tend to be in the $30,000-$40,000 range. They didn't enforce it very often until the current administration took office, but now it is very common.

Re:for always and eternity

[Miseph]

It bears noting that Buffalo is less than two hours away from Toronto, and that all three cities in question are metropolitan areas with considerable historical, political, and social significance. Furthermore, Buffalo is situated right on the Canadian border... when I lived there it was actually feasible for me to walk to Canada via the Peace Bridge (I lived near Niagara St. on Prospect Ave.), which means that his aunt was under the impression that NYC is about an hour away from the US-Canada border. Considering that she is, effectively, a local, this is pretty inept.

Re:for always and eternity

[Gospodin]

Let's not talk about lack of freedom of speech, executions without trial, or with fake trials, because that is not inherent to Cuba and its regime.

I think you meant "unique", not "inherent". It certainly is inherent to Cuba and its regime since the current regime is the one practicing this behavior. It isn't unique, but that doesn't make it right. So why can't we talk about it? Did you make the same argument about embargoes of South Africa under apartheid?

You get decent health care and a good education...

Let me rephrase that more accurately: "You get health care and education...." Unless you consider health care "decent" when there isn't enough penicillin to go around, or when patients have to bring their own toilet paper to the hospital. Unless you consider education "good" when one of the primary measurements is how well you can recite government ideology.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

and China doesn't allow you to keep an illegal torture prison on their land. Oh wait, maybe they do but it just hasn't been announced yet!

For fecks sake. That was over forty years ago. Are the nukes still there? No. Then just forget it and try to get on with the cubans! You should have other people to hate by now!

Re:for always and eternity

[LaughingCoder]

Typical /. where the truth gets modded as Troll. It never ceases to amaze me how much group-think this forum demonstrates.

Re:for always and eternity

[good soldier svejk]

Security Council requires unanimous decisions, and the US is always at odds with someone else in the Sec Council. During the Cold War, it was the USSR, and now it's China (and Russia still somewhat).

The SC does not require unanimity. It requires a 3/5 majority. However the five permanent members (the US, Britain, France, China and Russia) have vetos.

Re:for always and eternity

[Gospodin]

Castro lives in a shack compared to the average upper middle class in the US.

Dude, get real. Castro runs the country as a dictator. If he says, "Go from point A to point B" and you don't do it, you're tossed in prison - no oversight at all. This means he effectively owns the entire asset base of the country. You can argue until you're blue in the face about his "austere lifestyle" and how "his net worth is zero", but the simply fact is that he controls billions of dollars worth of assets.

Schools have better computers than banks in Cuba.

This may well be true. Of course, the banks use abacuses.

Re:for always and eternity

[epe]

Ramón Castro is his bigger brother, but he is not .. how to say.. actively involved in politics. I guess you were trying to say Raúl.

Re:for always and eternity

[T-Ranger]

"Return" the real estate to their rightful owners? Im sure Cuba will get on that right after 'merkins turn over half of Boston and Manhattan to the Loyalists.

Re:for always and eternity

[WED Fan]

Ramón Castro is his bigger brother, but he is not .. how to say.. actively involved in politics. I guess you were trying to say Raúl.

Do you mean larger, heavier, taller? Or, older?

Is Ramon still doing the drag show in Miami?

Re:for always and eternity

[WED Fan]

I'm worried about that, as well.

What gets me is the one who modded my statement as "troll".

Is it possible that Cuba has people reading /. and they don't like "Fidel in Drag" jokes? Or, do you think Stallman, peace be upon the prophet, doesn't like Cuba jokes and just happened to have mod points?

See, now I'm going to get all the Stallman, holiness is his name, accolytes modding me down.

Re:for always and eternity

[orpheum]

If I had mod points, I would definitely send some your way.

What you just mentioned coincides well with how the government is now looking into Michael Moore's trip to Cuba, even though it was on a journalistic endeavour for Sicko.

Re:for always and eternity

[Nullav]

I'll get on that right away, it should all be taken down by noon.
Seriously, why are you bitching at someone (most likely) not even in a government position? It's a representative democracy here. We vote people in based on how they fare in debates, how well they look in their campaign ads, and then we take a few out of the winning lot to do it again and eventually wind up with 435 representatives in Congress, 100 in the Senate, nine Supreme Court justices, and one president, one vice president, and his cabinet. The people get to vote on what to do on the state level and vote on who does what on the national level.
Also, if the government wants absolute control over a subject, they can just say it's a matter of national security and keep it secret from the public until decided otherwise.

Troll harder.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

I have one for you: shithead.

Let me guess, are you an Euro child molester? Do you masturbate to Euro bank notes while watching scat porn? Guantanamo is NOTHING compared to the shit Combloc countries had. You're all up whining for some terrorists while acting like a bunch of emo kids, when did you exactly stand for something?

When did the US deport ENTIRE POPULATIONS? The whole dung heap that is Western Europe remained for DECADES under US protection and guess what, you Nazi brown-nosers could even protest. Try it in Warsaw Pact land, mosquito penis.

Are you still sad because your mama didn't let you fuck her? Get over it already.

Re:for always and eternity

[wayward_bruce]

[...] The US still is under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change in these countries. Even though they haven't worked at all (and in fact have only served to further entrench the regimes in question) over the more than 40 years they've been in place, we're still convinced that if we keep them around just a little bit longer, democracy will flourish.

I second that. Having lived in Serbia until two years ago, I have witnessed first-hand the effects of trade embargoes on the attempts of the international community to displace Slobodan Milosevic. Those effects were largely the exact opposite; they:

• added fuel to the isolationist rhetoric;
• further damaged the already dwindling industry and economy;
• further reduced the standard of common people, which in turn led the organized crime to blossom;
• made everybody think about getting "food on their families" instead of reinstating democracy.

What did help was sending smaller amounts of money to the opposition and student organizations, and of course the whole cultural influence from abroad. By the same token, even if many of the values that usually come for free with the modern understanding of "democracy" and "capitalism" are nothing but mere eye-candy and low-fi money-traps, they might yet prove to be the best way to impose one country's standards and views upon another. OLPC is no exception to this: give it to the kids and see what happens when they grow up.

Re:for always and eternity

[Aqua_boy17]

Point taken on Viet Nam, but we never officially warred with Cuba either.

I mentioned the Cuban exiles, but one thing I forgot to mention is 'Big Sugar'. The cane sugar industry in the southeast and particularly in Florida is, for the most part, tightly held by a few very wealthy and influential parties. But it is a huge and powerful industry with tremendous political clout. They have absoluetly no desire to see cheap Cuban sugar dumped on US markets so that they can continue to keep their sugar prices artificially high. (This amounts to a defacto subsidy for US Sugar BTW and is kind of a hidden tax on every sugar consumer.)

IMHO, the embargo continues only because of these interests and those of the exiles.

Re:for always and eternity

[Solandri]

And this impression is absolutely right. As the sanctions damage the economies of the countries in question and perpetuate the strife, the regimes do and will continue to change: from anti-US, aggressive, and violent... to MORE anti-US, MORE aggressive and MORE violent.

Because if you tick off someone enough that they don't want to trade with you, and your economy is in the crapper, obviously it's all THEIR fault. People who think like you describe need to grow up and learn some personal accountability. The U.S. economy makes up less than a quarter of the global economy. If Cuba can't generate a prosperous economy with access to ~75% of the global economy, their problems are their own fault, not because of the U.S. embargo. If one's argument is based on the premise of the same entity simultaneously being the devil ("killing us by not trading!") and savior ("everything would be great if they would trade!") to your problems, something is seriously fubar with your thinking. If they really are your savior, perhaps you need to consider that maybe, just maybe, they're right and you're wrong?

If someone won't trade with you because they don't like you, you have two choices: Either you change yourself so they like you, or you stand by your principles and forfeit that trade. It's completely irrational to expect some universal right to free trade regardless of socio-political differences; that your right to trade trumps their right to decide who they trade with.

Note: I do not personally support the Cuban embargo, but I do support my country's (or any country's) right to choose who it trades with. (I do not support my country trying to extend the embargo by proxy to other countries by pressuring them with it as a "condition" for trade with them.)

Re:for always and eternity

[good soldier svejk]

Cuba will be a nice place to visit when Castro dies - after private citizens can own property, build businesses and such.

They can do that now. About 22% of Cuba's workforce is in the private sector. And much of the other 78% work on CPAs (Cooperativa de Producción Agropecuaria or Agricultural Cooperatives), which although publicly owned have a high degree of decentralization. The CPA allocates plots to individual farmers and brings their product directly to market rather than to the government. Many Agricultural communes have also been transformed into UBPC (Unidad Básica de Producción Cooperativa) cooperatives with explicit usufruct codified in law. The law also states that UBPC workers own their product.

Re:for always and eternity

[epe]

If Cuba is allowed to trade freely, there would be a possibility that life in Cuba would be better (or not, of course), and that could be perceived as other economical systems (not seen now by cubans) being good, productive, efficient. People will realize how can things be if Cuba becomes a country like "the others".

Another example of how foreing penetration can help: a tourist coming to Cuba from, lets say Spain or Mexico, some of the tourists are not wealthy men, millionaries (like people used to think years ago in Cuba)... some of them are clerks, maybe a taxi driver, etc... so people start thinking: Why me, a cuban, with a masters degree, or maybe Phd, or with college education, can not travel outside and visit foreing countries like this ecuadorean taxi driver? (in fact I met one in Guayaquil who visited Cuba)

As people realize things are not 100% perfect in the cuban paradise, then they try to find their way out.

It is not about being executed, or obeying castro's mandates.. but about some rights or desires you can not fullfil there.

I used to live in Cuba, since day 0 of my life. I have been living outside Cuba for 8 years now. This is what I feel. Embargo, or like they say back in Cuba: Blockade, is not the way... actually. Because people feels like if they are being attacked by the US. And this feeling tends to help gather people against the "aggressor". Easying the sanctions, or lifting will really help to speed up the transition.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

I just have one word for you: Guantanamo.

Real Americans call it Club Gitmo. Namby pamby fags from Europe think it should be closed because it's so unfair. We think it ought to be expanded to include far more ragheads. Fuck you Eurotrash

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

And of course you don't also mind your non-American vacation coming at the costs of Cubans under their oppressive government. I'm sure you wouldn't have any problem switching places with the Cubans :) You could still have your problem with Americans!

First off, ram that smug, goddamned smiley back up your rectum where you found it.

Don't give me any of your jingoistic, fascist "love it or leave it" horseshit. Not while we suck the asses of the fucking bastard Saudis (who provided the 9/11 folks), North Korea and the rest of the motherfucking countries willing to accept our "unlawful combatants" for torture, since we want to play Pontius Pilate with them. Sure, let's hear it, America -- "I am innocent of the blood of this beaten, shocked, genitally-mutilated man whom the Turks display to us."

Didn't your mother ever tell you, "Pick on someone your own size"? We fuck over Cuba for the same reason a dog licks it's own asshole -- because he (we) can.

We are a nation of buttfucking, cowardly bullies.

Re:for always and eternity

[Mr. Underbridge]

Cuba on the other hand, not so bad in recent times, but they only give us cigars so we keep the embargo.

On the contrary - I believe the main reason we still have the embargo is because of the agricultural lobby, particularly the rice lobby. Every time the possibility of lifting the embargo comes up, rice farmers in the Gulf Coast area scream bloody murder. What started as politics has become good old fashioned protectionism.

Should they develop the sort of industrial economy that China has, watch us lift the embargo. Since it'll happen after Casto's death, the US will be able to do it and save face.

Re:for always and eternity

[MightyYar]

Most of us are mystified why the embargo wasn't lifed in 1991 It's simple:

The Cuban landowners were displaced by Castro when he came into power. Many of them wound up in Florida. Now enough expatriate Cubans and their children live in Florida such that they have significant political clout. No President dares lift the embargo on Cuba as long as Castro is in power, for they would lose Florida in the next election.

Re:for always and eternity

[mjpaci]

Anecdote:

I knew a guy who was a dual US/Italian Citizen and he played for the Italian National Baseball Team (not a powerhouse). Anyway, back in 1987 or 1988 he travelled with the Italian team to Cuba to play in a tourney (they got crushed). One night one of the Cuban stars invited a bunch of the players from the other teams over to his beautiful mansion in Cuba that the state allowed him to live in. My buddy said it was amazing if you could overlook the fact the the whole place was furnished with Aluminum and Vinyl-webbed lawn furniture.

He said it didn't really matter after all of the rum and cigars that were consumed...

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

There are places where economic embargoes, or the threat thereof, may have significant benefit. Libya's acquiesence to UN demands regarding the Lockerbie suspects

Some significant benefit

Re:for always and eternity

[epe]

Sorry: older

he lives in Cuba.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Canadian, I like the trade embargo.
It means there's a nice warm international vacation destination with no Americans.
Now, that's something that money just can't buy.

When you go to Cuba, do you visit the doctor than will enlarge your tiny penis? Or do you go to blow Cuban homos?

Re:for always and eternity

[Solandri]

That does present an interesting slate of hypocritical stances all around.

The U.S. is hypocritical for putting an embargo on Cuba for being communist, but not on China which is also communist.

Critics of the U.S. are hypocritical for criticizing the U.S. for trading with China, yet also criticizing the U.S. for not trading with Cuba.

Re:for always and eternity

[MightyYar]

Everyone was friendly to me in Toronto and in Quebec - but then I think that New Yorkers are generally pretty helpful :)

I grew up at the Jersey shore. I can tell you that a small number of the French Canadian tourists are just the worst type of person. Every once in a while, you'd get a tongue-lashing (in French) for - among other offenses - not speaking French or not accepting Canadian dollars... in New Jersey! Most of them were fine, though... er, except for the propensity of them all to wear bikinis - male, female, old, young, fat, or thin. Yuck. And the men aren't very metrosexual, so the hair just sort of hangs out of the old Speedo... ugh. On the other hand, you were always rewarded by the end of the beach day by seeing how red they got and knowing that sunburn would violate them in their sleep as badly as they had violated your eyes all day.

Re:for always and eternity

[QRDeNameland]

Down the Jersey Shore (no "at" in the local usage), you can visit from 15 miles inland, and locals will still deride you as a benny. Canada might as well be Bangladesh to them.

Re:for always and eternity

[Martin Blank]

The demand was that the suspects be turned over for trial in a fair court. This happened, and the appeals process is an extension of that. Just because one was acquitted and one can appeal does not mean that the efforts were wasted.

You also ignore the complete removal of Libya's nuclear and chemical weapons programs, which were turned over to nations in the Security Council, and all of the facilities opened without exception to UN inspectors. That's an even more significant accomplishment.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

What about Luca? He lives on the second-floor.

Re:for always and eternity

[mjpaci]

...and wouldn't be very happy if cheap sugar was imported from Cuba to compete with their HFCS. Once the tarriffs on that sugar are imposed that sugar becomes expensive sugar that costs the same as the stuff produced in the US.

--Mike

Re:for always and eternity

[808140]

This has more to do with politeness norms than anything else. What it means to be polite is not culturally invariant -- to take an extreme example which you may have been exposed to anecdotally, the sorts of things that are important and considered polite to a Japanese person are not the same as to an American person. You're rude there if you don't pour drinks for your guests with both hands and if you don't slurp your noodles you're insulting the cook.

Well, French culture (for example) may share a lot more in common with American culture than Japanese culture does, but it is nonetheless different and has different ideas of what it means to be polite. Consider: most Americans think that French people are quite rude, and it's not uncommon for people who go to France on vacation (one of the most popular vacation destinations in the world) to come back with stories about how rude they are. What may surprise you is that in France, Americans are widely seen as extremely rude. Despite what you may think, this is not due to France's perceived anti-Americanism. It's due to different politeness norms. Since I'm intimately familiar with both cultures, I'll give you a run-down of why this notion persists on both sides. Similar explanations work for any other culture, I'm sure, although the details are bound to be different.

French, like many European languages (and English, in the old days, but not any more) has what is called a T-V distinction. This means that they have two different words for "you": one is formal, and one is informal. With friends and children you might use the informal one; with strangers on the street, colleagues at work, clients, etc, you'd probably use the formal one. It's actually much more subtle and complex than this, but bear with me. Then, the French rarely address people they don't know well by their first names, preferring instead words like Mister, Madam, and Sir. They place extremely heavy emphasis on greeting people, even strangers: when you walk into the Baker's shop, as soon as you open the door, you are expected to greet everyone (not individually, but you might say something like "Messieurs Dames" Saying "Please" and "Thank You" is extremely important. With people you don't know well, you are expected to be formal, even a little bit stiff. This is because being overly familiar with someone you don't know well is considered very rude, and the French person feels rather the same way that an American might feel when his personal space is invaded if someone is too informal with him.

Americans, on the other hand, speak a language which lacks a T-V distinction. While saying please and thank you is considered well-mannered, in general, the American thinks he is being polite by being friendly. In American society, smiling a lot when you greet someone and acting like you're old friends is considered polite, and calling someone Mister is seen as extremely stuffy -- outside of very formal situations, like job interviews, the average American feels uncomfortable using these terms. You don't want to be seen as stuck-up, and many Americans will feel that you are putting on airs if you don't smile much and persist in calling them sir.

I remember once that my cousin came to visit me and she had a conversation with a lady while waiting in line at the supermarket. The lady was very friendly, asked her how she liked the US, and generally did the American thing. The lady said things like, "Oh, you should come over to my place sometime, my husband really knows how to BBQ". My cousin came away feeling like this woman, who was just trying to be friendly, was extremely fake. All the small talk, the asking of questions whose answers she wasn't really interested in -- they all severely offended her French sensibilities. But this is in no way a criticism of the American woman; in the context of American culture, she was being polite and welcoming to a foreigner. Still, a misunderstanding resulted.

So, essentially, what is considered polite is different in differ

Re:for always and eternity

[caente]

hola paisano, yo aun sigo en la vieja habana :(

Re:for always and eternity

[UncleTogie]

Why is so wrong for Russia to have missiles pointing at you when you are doing the same?
Two points to make here...

First, at no [unclassified] point in the 1960's did we have nuke-tipped weapons less than 100 miles from their border.
Second, we're busy shutting down Gitmo. While the current administration may not like it, the legal pressure is building. Most Americans are ready for it to shut, myself included. Don't assume that just because the ninny at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue likes to jack with personal freedom, that all Americans do.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

Very nice post (and, as a Frenchman, I can attest that it is very true).

Btw, nice username too...

Re:for always and eternity

[Kirgin]

So by your logic George Bush is the richest man in the world...or I should say Dick Cheney is.

Castro built the system, he dosen't walk around and point to 18 year old girls and say "come with me" and they have to. No, it dosen't work that way. Castro believes in Communism because his early adult life showed him that capitalism (owning of property, having people indebted..etc) lead to nothing but misery for Cuba. Cubans were second class citizens in their own country under American rule (everything owned by US companies). Hell, Cuban military had orders to shoot at any United Fruit ships dared to even come close to Cuba. If you don't know who United Fruit was then google it.

The system dictates how Cubans behave, not Castro. when Castro dies, nothing will change unless the system(the people) decide. But a lot of Cubans like feeling safe, like have 100% employment, like having free education/healthcare. The big complaint I ever hear from Cubans is about censoring/controlling of media/information and travel.

Without the US embargo Cuba would probably move towards socialism. The people that are against the lifting of the embargo are the exiled(rich or formely) Cuban families and US trade companies that want to sweep in when Castro dies and "Claim" their family plantations and rule the lowerclasses like their parents/grandparents did. US will back their claims, they'll say Cuba "owes" 50 years of lost revenue and then legally fengshwei a debt to the world bank for said lost revenue...then begin to claim other aspects of Cuba as "debt reclamation". Or some other dumbfuck capitalist scheme like that.

That is why Castro is so strict when it comes to ANYTHING that in his mind may lead to a returning to the way they were; 90% illiteracy and a population enslaved(indebted) to foreign interests. Is it justified?

So ya, to sum: up Castro isn't an asshole dictator like any number of banana republics. He contributes more doctors/medicine to impoverished spanish colonies than anyone in the world. And he also happend to be a good friend of my hero Pierre Trudeau.

Oh, and the banks are really for us tourists/foreign nations. Communists don't need banks.

Re:for always and eternity

[Attila Dimedici]

"Castro lives in a shack compared to the average upper middle class in the US." You do realize that Fidel Castro is one of the richest men in the world, with large deposits in Swiss and other non-Cuban banks?

Re:for always and eternity

[pegr]

Couldn't Cuba just export no-label cigars to Mexico, and then people could be buying "mexican" cigars? Seems like it would be difficult to determine the origin of a cigar if there was no identifiable markings on it.
 
That's exactly how it works...
 
[Canadian Duty-Free Shop]
Me: Hey, aren't these Cuban cigars illegal in the US?
Clerk: Not if that little paper band falls off between here and customs! (Please use the trash can on the left...)

Re:for always and eternity

[G Morgan]

Oh, we here in the US can visit Cuba as well, we just have to fly to Mexico first.

The US embargo of Cuba is not something people in the US take seriously. One of the "perks" of going to Mexico is bringing back a bottle of Cuban rum or a box of cigars. Most of us are mystified why the embargo wasn't lifed in 1991; engagement works better against communism than isolation (see: China.) You talk as if you want the terrists to win.

Re:for always and eternity

[nomadic]

Cuba will be a nice place to visit when Castro dies - after private citizens can own property, build businesses and such.

I think Cuba is probably a more interesting place to visit now than it will be if they become capitalist.

Re:for always and eternity

[G Morgan]

This is why god intelligently designed the French. So we all have someone to hate without needing lasting hatred towards anyone else.

Re:for always and eternity

[Ucklak]

Chinese can own property.
At least the Chinese are productive.
China has a space program which implies China has a modern educational system.

Re:for always and eternity

[omfgnosis]

Whoever labeled this comment a troll is a moron. As GNUALMAFUERTE said, the US has a military presence in about 2/3 of the world, and has been at war every year since its inception. You know, the rest of the world doesn't necessarily agree with our self-imposed exempt status from what we do around the world. Eventually, the strong-arm tactics we use will get turned around against us (I believe 2001 was a hint at that fact). If we don't want missiles pointed at us, perhaps we should be working to stop giving people a reason to point them at us in the first place.

Re:for always and eternity

[Kirgin]

US uses the logic "if he is dictator he owns everything in Cuba". Not surprising that a US publication catering to the wealthy elite would use this approach. This is something US media have been spewing for a few years now. The average slashdot reader knows the difference between communism and capitalism. Applying a capitalist approach to a communist country is dumb. Cuba's response to this: Not surprisingly, the Cuban government has long disputed Forbes' inclusion of Castro in their list.3 It publicly responded for the first time in 2004 by issuing a statement clarifying that "the revenues of Cuban state companies are used exclusively for the benefit of the people, to whom they belong."4 In 2005, Fidel publicly rebuked Forbes' report and said he was considering a lawsuit against the magazine for libel.

Re:for always and eternity

[dan828]

The hypocricy of Europeans is amazing. We've invaded more countires and participated in more military conflicts than any other country, have we? Did you forget about 600 hundred fucking years of European colonialism?

Re:for always and eternity

[omfgnosis]

@Nullav,

US citizens are responsible for the actions of their government. One could argue that the so-called democratic nature of the US government only increases that responsibility. This is the same for citizens of any country, though. And the US actually set this precedent after WWII. Just as the German citizens were responsible to stop the crimes of the nazi regime, we're responsible to stop the crimes of our own country.

Re:for always and eternity

[Roger W Moore]

We're not so bad...

...as long as you are a European hotelier which are the people who completed the survey the article reports on. Since US tipping practice calls for huge tips on the European scale (which I am sure the hoteliers love) and only US tourists with sufficient education to want to visit Europe as well as the money to afford to do so will go so this is not unbiased data.

That being said the reason I think US tourists get such a bad rap with other tourists is because they like to travel around in large groups by tour bus. When I am a tourist I find having a large groups of people clogging things up is irritating regardless of their nationality! Of course for hoteliers it is not a problem.

Re:for always and eternity

[Gospodin]

[The Cuban government] publicly responded for the first time in 2004 by issuing a statement clarifying that "the revenues of Cuban state companies are used exclusively for the benefit of the people, to whom they belong."

I'm sure they did say this. Do you believe everything the U.S. government says?

In 2005, Fidel publicly rebuked Forbes' report and said he was considering a lawsuit against the magazine for libel.

Oh, gosh. I've made a terrible mistake. Since he denied it, the reports must be false. Because he would never lie for political purposes, like American politicians.

Ack, someone help me stop feeding this troll!!

Re:for always and eternity

[rbanffy]

Every dictatorship needs an enemy. The embargoes nicely produce one that keeps those regimes stable. I am curious - since I never witnessed a dictatorship without an enemy, how would the state propaganda machine react to such a situation if it persists long enough?

BTW, I can't help but wonder if Cuba, Syria, North Korea and the like aren't succeeding the Soviet Union in keeping the US status quo.

Re:for always and eternity

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

You're completely anecdotal evidence hasn't convinced me.

most people are very friendly unlike in American cities.

How many American cities have you studied for this statement? What sampling size did you use? What was your metric for determining who was being friendly and who wasn't?

Change "Americans" to "African-Americans" in the above statements that you made. Do you still think you're making intelligent statements?

Re:for always and eternity

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

Moderators, if the parent had said, "It means there's a nice warm international vacation destination with no African-Americans." - would you still mod the parent up?

Re:for always and eternity

[bsd_usr]

Bah! I went there straight from L.A. on TACAS airlines in 2004. The rule is that you can go go there every 3 years and it has to be part of an educational trip, missionary trip, and one other thing having to do with with immediate family. I went there due to the latter.

I can't wait to go back. It's a beautiful place full of warm people. I can't wait for the Castro regime to end. Maybe one day, it will be a 1st world country again. 50 years ago, it was one of the riches countries in the western hemisphere along with the U.S. (at the top) and Argentina. Now it's in ruins. It's a shame.

Anyway, I doubt that will happen overnight. May never even happen. Not easy to rebuild and economy, but it's possible. Cuba is filled with hard working, resourceful, and brilliant people.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean the natives, right? Wouldn't want you to be an asshole and factually retarded at the same time.

Re:for always and eternity

[omfgnosis]

@dan828,

As if the US isn't a direct extension of that? Whatever you want to say about Europe, it applies to the US too. Besides US military occupation and presence around the world, let's not forget that the basis of US existence is the genocide and conquest of hundreds of indigenous nations across an entire continent.

Re:for always and eternity

[elrous0]

Not only that, but they need to abandon hippie shit like free health care too. We can't have them hanging around right off our coast showing Americans that universal health care can be done (it's hard enough clouding Americans' vision of Canada's healthcare system by making up a bunch of negative lies about it).

How are our insurance companies supposed to turn a profit with shit like that going on?

Re:for always and eternity

[aminorex]

> There are places where economic embargoes, or the threat thereof, may have significant benefit....
> Iran instituted fuel rationing a couple of days ago in response to threat of embargo of gasoline
> trade into the country in an attempt to build up reserves in anticipation of trade sanctions.

Two points:

(1) If you consider riots, repression, and rationing to be a significant benefit, I'd hate to see what
you consider to be a detriment.

(2) Thus Iran is justified in demanding the enforcement of its rights under the terms of the
nuclear non-proliferation treaties to which it, and the U.S., are signatories, that it should be allowed
to fully develop a domestic nuclear fuel cycle. (Did you hear that sound? I think it was Dick
Cheney shooting himself in the foot. Or maybe it was Bibi Netanyahu shooting him in the foot.)

Re:for always and eternity

[elrous0]

Yeah, because the Cubans in Florida are such a reasonable and level-headed people to deal with. I think we all saw that during the Elian Gonzalez debacle.

Re:for always and eternity

[elrous0]

I'd rather live in Cuba than any "free market" country in the Caribbean or south america.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

American slaves were also productive down South, what's your point?

Germany, Italy, Norway, or the UK have no space programs (cannot make rockets to get to orbit), so what's your point?

Re:for always and eternity

[squiggleslash]

Still wrong. It's We treat Cuba like we do because the CIA's plot to assassinate Castro Kennedy was stopped by Bobby Kennedy.

Re:for always and eternity

[squiggleslash]

(Crap: hit submit instead of preview. It's like rain on my wedding day.)

Still wrong. It's We treat Cuba like we do because the CIA's plot to assassinate Castro was stopped by Bobby Kennedy. (Source)

Re:for always and eternity

[couchslug]

"The US still is under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change in these countries."

No, but Cuban exiles vote, controlling the keys to Florida, and US policy toward Cuba.

Re:for always and eternity

[Grishnakh]

It's a lot easier to just leave a stupid embargo in place than to lift it, then enact tariffs. Tariffs don't look good anyway, and invite WTO complaints.

Re:for always and eternity

[Qwaniton]

I'm sure they have a lot of choice things to say about everyone. They call it the Garbage State for a reason.

Re:for always and eternity

[LeadSongDog]

Somebody Mod Parent Up - Insightful Of course, I have to add the trivial points that 1. The T-V distinction (tu - vous) is practiced in the Southern US as (you - y'all) whilst it fades away in French-Canadian usage. 2. Parent may be the first person in history to defend the practice of manners in Jersey.

Re:for always and eternity

[cammoblammo]

I like to turn this around a bit when I come across Americans (I'm Australian). I'm always happy to have a chat with international visitors, but I can never resist acting a little dumb when people mention they're from the US. I reply, 'America? I've heard of that. That's right, it's south of Canada!'

I'm yet to be disappointed with the reaction.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually many tobacco shops in London import Cigars that are manufatcured in the 'EU' that just happen to use Tobacco leaves imported from Cuba. This is perfectly legal and is the way that many American friends I know enjoy cuban cigars at home in the USA.

Re:for always and eternity

[Karem Lore]

Like your level-headed government is such a reasonable and level-headed group to deal with. I think we all saw that during (and still) the Hurricane Katrina...Where's the rebuilding projects?

And before you paint a general stroke of your brush against all cubans, maybe you should like, you know, know more than what is spoon-fed through your questionable media...

Not to mention that Elian's father, the rightful person to decide his own sons future and his own life, made the ultimate decision. (For your information here I doubt if Elian's father would not be in prison or dead) The courts just upheld what was plainly obvious...

Don't blame the people, blame the government which is responsible...

Karem

Re:for always and eternity

[Karem Lore]

Oh land of the free (just you can't travel to Cuba, Syria or anywhere else we deem you are not alowed to go without US permission, huh?)...Hypocrisy.

Re:for always and eternity

[Ash Vince]

The question for me is why should these regimes fall?

Lets not forget that before Castro the country was still a corrupt dictatorship. It was just a corrupt dictatorship that was friends with the US and the Mafia.

Why not actually allow other countries to determine their own destiny and leadership without meddling or trying to cut them off from the rest of the world?

Maybe when the US learns to mind its own business an not meddle in the affairs of other sovereign nations it will regain the respect of the rest of the world. Until then it will just be feared for it huge armed forces and willingness to ignore the will of the international community.

Re:for always and eternity

[Karem Lore]

This isn't even funny. However, Castro's daughter does live in the US and runs an anti-castro radio statio out of miami...

Re:for always and eternity

[Krazy Nemesis]

There's a huge difference between journalism and 'documentaries'. Either way, both need to get prior permission from the U.S. government before they even think about crossing that border. I'm certain that Moore, even with all the crap he's pulled before, had he gone through the proper channels, could have gotten proper permission. But he didn't. Now he has to pay his dues, just like the rest of us who break laws. Just because he has a cause, doesn't make Moore exempt, whether or not you or I agree with him.

Re:for always and eternity

[Nite_Hawk]

Screw that. Moore shouldn't have to pay any dues, because what he did shouldn't be a crime. Just because other people have been wrongfully punished doesn't mean he should have to be as well. Fair treatment and equal treatment are not the same thing. Personally I hope that he fights any charges the government brings and wins. The US should not be in the business of restricting the movements of its citizens.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL.

Re:for always and eternity

[WilliamSChips]

Well, the Loyalists are about as much rightful owners of Boston as the Mafia was of Cuba.

Re:for always and eternity

[WilliamSChips]

Heck, there are differences within the US too. See your reactions to calling somebody "Sir" or "Ma'am" in Atlanta and Boston, respectively.

Re:for always and eternity

[WilliamSChips]

People stopped using that term when the phrase "the pot calling the kettle African-American" arose.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are going on anecdotal evidence I found Toronto to be the rudest city I've ever been to. It was worse than Boston and Albany put together.

Nice people live in rural Vermont.

Re:for always and eternity

[DigiShaman]

Two big, and important differences between China and Cuba. One is controlled by a large body of government officials, the other by an anti-capitalist dictator.

Obviously the Chinese government is rooted in communism, but not so much today. In fact, almost half the financial institutions have been privatized in China. Clearly, the CCP has embraced capitalism will full force, and the momentum is growing stronger each year. Don't expect Castro or Hugo Chevez to follow the same lead.

Second point. The best way to end the oppression of communism is to export capitalism to that country. Because capitalism embodies freedom through personal choice and prosperity, it's quite possible China will end up with a democratic republic parliament (similar to UPC in 1912). We've learned that lesson from the Cold War. We do not want another with China...which is why we put up with their human rights record.

Re:for always and eternity

[klossner]

Yet China is our most favored nation trading partner. No, they are nothing of the sort. Most favored nation trading status is a misnomer; it actually means normal trading status. The U.S. stopped using the term altogether in 1998; we now call it normal trade relations.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

*You* might not be, but some of your countrymen are a different matter. :)
Incidentally, I suspect the 'bad tippers' tag given to the UK and Germany is because tips really are a gratuity here and not an essential part of the staff members' wages, so we tend to assume that other countries, especially 'mostly-white' (that's how the USA is perceived; I've no idea what racial sub-types make up the USA these days (black, white, purple, etc)) countries, pay their service-industry workers a living wage too.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

Simpler still...

If the embargo against Cuba was lifted the enormous amount of tourism dollars and trade in cigars and sugar would make Cuba wealthy.

The USA will not stand for a communist nation to be successful. They will do anything in their power to ensure that Cuba fails economically while it continues to be a communist nation.

The embargo is a philosophic tool against communism. Always has been.

Re:for always and eternity

[WED Fan]

Probably goes to see her uncle's show.

Re:for always and eternity

[RagingFuryBlack]

Its down the shore, you goddamn benny.

Re:for always and eternity

[Grishnakh]

Second point. The best way to end the oppression of communism is to export capitalism to that country. Because capitalism embodies freedom through personal choice and prosperity, it's quite possible China will end up with a democratic republic parliament (similar to UPC in 1912).

Right; making people miserable isn't going to make them blame their own government and revolt. 40 years of an embargo with Cuba should have taught us that by now. China is doing better all the time, and eventually its people may decide they want democracy, since they won't be worried any more about not starving to death. So why don't we just take the same approach with Cuba? Just because the government is run by one guy in Cuba doesn't make any difference to me.

Re:for always and eternity

[sybesis]

I remember a story here in Canada. If i remember right. This was about a contract with the US for Bell Helicopter or something like that. The us provided a list of who could work on the contract based on their nationalities. All the people that came from blacklisted nationalities were fired up. It's just a stupid thing. People that leaved their country because the life wasn't great. Come here and work and have a great job until, united state comes and say you cannot work here because your origins are on the black list. I still believe that if i would like to trade with people in Cuba. It should be my right to decide if i want or not. The government don't have any word on who would work in my company or with who I trade things. It's just like if your parent choose who you can go out with and who not!

Re:for always and eternity

[moronoxyd]

Germany, Italy, Norway, or the UK have no space programs (cannot make rockets to get to orbit), so what's your point?

Have you ever heard about some organisation called, say, ESA?
You may be surprised to hear that all four countries you mentioned are members of ESA and therefor able to get rockets into orbit :)

Re:for always and eternity

[Grishnakh]

This is all well and good, but personally I'm not offended if someone calls me "sir" too much, or anything of the sort. What's offensive is when someone calls you obscene names in public for some perceived slight, uses obscene gestures towards you, is condescending towards you as a customer, physically attacks you because they're upset, etc.

Remember, I'm an American, living in America, and I think there's a lot of mean and nasty people here. This isn't a cultural misunderstanding; I'd like to think I know my own culture. This isn't to say that everyone here is mean and nasty, just that I think we have more than our fair share.

BTW, I've spent some time in NYC as well, and I didn't find people there any more rude than anywhere else. If anything, they were better behaved. They were just more curt than people in the South, but that's a cultural thing. Overall, they seemed to get along better, since they didn't have separate vehicles to isolate them from each other, as the main modes of transportation are walking and subways (in which you get packed like sardines during rush hour).

Re:for always and eternity

[speaker of the truth]

Yes, it would make perfect sense that our relationship would be better with the people who owned the nukes then the people who simply housed them. That makes perfect sense.

Re:for always and eternity

[Curtman]

Like your level-headed government is such a reasonable and level-headed group to deal with. I think we all saw that during (and still) the Hurricane Katrina...Where's the rebuilding projects?

Sorry, we're busy destroying the middle east. We'll rebuild in 2010.

Re:for always and eternity

[Lost Engineer]

You are allowed to obtain reasonable amounts of Cuban products (2 cases for cigars IIRC) and import them on your person. You just aren't allowed to get them from Cuba.

Re:for always and eternity

[speaker of the truth]

someoneWeTradeWith = mostEvilNationWeTradeWith
someoneWeShouldEmbargo = mostEvilNationWeTradeWith
someoneWeEmbargo = leastEvilNationWeEmbargo
IF someoneWeTradeWith.atrocities > someoneWeEmbargo.atrocities
THEN
WHILE someoneWeTradeWith == someoneWeShouldEmbargo
Criticize USA and say we should trade with someoneWeEmbargo
ENDWHILE

Have the above code in a loop until we no longer trade with evil countries. That is why it isn't hypocritical.

Re:for always and eternity

[halplus00]

> If Cuba wants the embargo lifted they need to provide cheap labor like China does. Comments like this are the pure crap you actually help stop democracy. How are you going to say that you want to exploit cubans so cubans change. Cubans are smarter than you after all. They "elected" your very own president. Doh. Your vote? Doesn't counts. > Cuba on the other hand, not so bad in recent times, but they only give us cigars so we keep the embargo. Ignorants like you do not know that Cuba also produces great vaccines to protect you from dying. And so goes for many medical methods. Cigars and electronics? That's the only crap in your head? What about source code. There are lots of engineers better than many in the US. But yet you don't realize that US citizens rights are violated by the very own embargo from preventing the travels. So is not that good for you after all. But then Venezuela is taking advantage into taking that great geographical position that Cuba has. And the US? Loosing ground... by following wrong policies. After all the embargo has been there for hmm 40+ years. And democracy? Absent. Stupid policies from both sides. Well more from the US than from Cuba. After all the very same government is still there since hmm all those years. Does the embargo solves something? Nothing Nada. All those policies are simply a piece of sh.. They only harm the Cuban people and then the Cuban people can not change because then the Cuban government says that if they are not there then the US is going to take over Cuba and that is going to kill everyone. Something not very far from the truth given all that Irak crap and all those laws and restrictions.

Re:for always and eternity

[halplus00]

- And by that the regime went to communism.

True. Cuba was not communist at the very beginning. But then there was a bombarding from the US to an airport in cuba and the the communism mas declared in Cuba in response.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but we cheered on Buffalo when they played Ottawa this year. And everyone else who played Ottawa

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a fucking idiot. Mr. happy-there's-no-Americans-here still is enjoying his vacation in a third-world dictatorship. Congratulations on not even addressing the point. You tried to turn it backwards, but who had the smug smile on their face supporting the dictator first? The OP. Fuck you.

Re:for always and eternity

[dryeo]

First, at no [unclassified] point in the 1960's did we have nuke-tipped weapons less than 100 miles from their border.

The crisis all started when missiles were deployed in Turkey. Perhaps a hair over 100 miles but still only 16 minutes from Moscow. At the time the US had 8 times the nukes as the USSR and much better delivery. The USSR had crappy cruise missiles to be launched from submarines on the surface (range about much less the the US polaris missiles 1000 mile range) and like 4 big ICBMs and a few more smaller ones. So perhaps the US didn't have missiles within a 100 miles but time wise they were pretty close and out gunned the USSR by quite a bit.
Basically the USSR was aiming at parity whereas the USA was aiming at total domination. And considering what Russia has gone through over the years it is a lot more understandable why they are so paranoid.
Moscow had been burned down within memory (less then 20 years) where as the last time Washington was burned down was approaching 150 years (1813?)

Re:for always and eternity

[ClamIAm]

This sounds like an urban legend. No real names, dates, or links to references are given. All there is is some anecdotal hearsay ("people I know") and a boogeyman ("the government").

Good job, though. You got pretty close to fooling my bullshit detector.

Re:for always and eternity

[Res3000]

Don't tell me that. I'm from Switzerland, and most US people point at Sweden when asked where Switzerland is.

I hope that Americans know there continent better then Europeans do.

Re:for always and eternity

[ShieldW0lf]

Crass, wasteful, dishonest, exploitative, self-centered, ignorant, violent people are just as bad regardless of their color.

It's not "The rude Americans". It's all the things that they think make them so great, the things they strive for, the things they idealize... those are what make Americans so damned rotten to the core inside and terrible to share the face of the earth with...

Re:for always and eternity

[CrankyOldBastard]

I suspect that the US (and Australia) will learn a harsh lesson from freely trading with China when it is discovered that the "Free Economies" have their economic policies being decided for them in Beijing. I'm definitely the political Left, but it makes me worry about the future. Lets see who are the Superpowers in 50 years - India and China will both have absolutely massive economies, and incredible resources.

Re:for always and eternity

[Hathor's Dad]

I think we have te award for the biggest fuckwit ever! (* Yes I have some great friends for the USA). Man people rock......they didn't dig u - go figure!

Re:for always and eternity

[Crazy Eight]

I sincerely mean no disrespect to your political point but what is the preferable alternative? If an embargo has no pragmatic effect does it not at least involve putting our money where our mouth is? Either we up the ante with military intervention or do business with the mob. At least an embargo says, "We won't consort with your ideological ilk. We're ready to sacrifice the relationship for principals." Personally, I admire Castro's guile and wit. During the 2004 Presidential Election fiasco he offered to send troops into Florida to ensure plebecite justice! He deserves props for symbolic value and humor. He's a dictator nonetheless. If he had his druthers, the East Coast would still be in the cross-hairs of (now Cuban) nukes. For every policy he's decreed that's given Cuba a better infant mortality rate than America (Source: Robert McNamara) he's had another that involves oppression or "boat people". Miami is full of Cuban-Americans that have officially forsaken their cigars and want the rest of us to do the same. I might add that dissatisfaction with the Cuban embargo might be aleviated by comparison with unsavory entities that aren't shunned. If sheer principals had no value, no one would circulate photos of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would Castro live in a shack (relatively speaking) if he was as rich as you claim? Wouldn't he be enjoying the good life?

It would be easy enough to verify where Castro lives. Let's see who's right: you or Kirgin. I'm betting on Kirgin, because what he says agrees with what I know about Castro.

By the way, the Bay of Pigs invasion failed because Castro gave weapons to nearly everyone on the U.S.-facing coast. Would an evil tyrant fearful of his own people give them weapons? I think your picture of Castro is terribly skewed.

Re:for always and eternity

[Crazy Eight]

What is your point exactly?

Re:for always and eternity

[crypticgeek]

I didn't realize Cuba still had nukes pointed at us. Wait, they don't. But China does. Either the US should lift the embargo on Cuba or it should enact one on China. It's not fair or moral to embargo one nation that points nukes at us and restricts the freedoms of its people through oppression and not do the same to another. But that would never fly would it? We couldn't lift the embargo because Cuba would "win" then. And we could never embargo China, the corporations that have bought off Congress wouldn't like to lose the cheap labor and manufacturing. So we live with this bullshit then?

Re:for always and eternity

[KudyardRipling]

Please don't further encourage the current (and following) administrations about how the regime in +850 controls the people so well. Merely because nonconformists in the USA are not murdered by pouring molten iron on them http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/5/7/ 120250.shtml, does not exculpate these one iota.

As for the Linux issue, I could envision export diversion through one or more more countries that hold a significant fraction of the US federal debt. It would not be wise to slap sanctions on nations that hold the noose. Yeah, what was that nation? You know, the one where someone was standing before a tank facing it as it approached him on television on or about 4 June 1989.

Re:for always and eternity

[Crazy Eight]

So by your logic George Bush is the richest man in the world...

If Bush broke into my apartment and tried to take my "Lawrence of Arabia" DVD my reticence about shooting the theif would only entail harming a human. I at least believe my government accords me that status in relation to the Greaterest Communicationer.

Re:for always and eternity

[Aqua_boy17]

I don't know if your comment is a troll or not, but I'll bite anyway. Travel to Cuba is strictly limited under US law. The laws were created under authority granted to the President's office via the 'Trading with the Enemy' act. You must obtain a license in order to travel Cuba legally. Licenses are only granted for scientific, educational, humanitarian and family visit puroses. More detail on the current law and it's history is here http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/87354. pdf (pdf warning). I'm not evoking boogeymen, but simply pointing out that a lot of posts here indicate a cavalier attitude towards travel to Cuba which is unwise if you live in the US.

A friend of mine (yeah, like I'm gonna post his peronal data on /.) travelled to Cuba via the Dominican Republic nearly 2 years ago. The State Department found out about it and he was fined over $1,700. That's a pretty hefty vacation tax. Bring back a couple of Cuban cigars and most likely, no one's going to notice it. Try bringing back a case and, at best it can be confiscated. At worst, you're looking at potential fines and prosecution. Like I said, the Customs and Homeland Security folks take their jobs pretty seriously.

I stand by my remarks.

Re:for always and eternity

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

So every American is striving for the same thing? Wow - that's smart.

How is that any different from saying that every African-American is striving for the same thing? Your prejudice is just as bad as racism. You are scum.

Notice how I can separate the fact that you are scum from the rest of Canada? I don't say that because you are scum, that must mean that all Canadians are scum. You disgust me. Canadians as a group, do not.

Re:for always and eternity

[schweinhund]

... and neither do brutal, authoritarian Communist dictatorships.

Viva Cuba Libre!

Re:for always and eternity

[schweinhund]

What a bunch of horseshit. So Cuba really has become a workers' paradise under Cuba? Everyone is doing just great down there, aren't they. If you think it's such a desirable situation, head down there yourself and see if you can get past the carefully controlled tourist traps and look at the utter poverty and squalor people are forced into.

You're yet another trendy propagandist for a violent scheme which has tortured, murdered and enslaved thousands of people. I don't agree with what Fox News generally has to say, but if they're telling the truth people about the Cuban people and the suffering they have endured under Castro, more power to them.

Castro gave everything to the people, did he? How utterly ridiculous. Do you think it's effective or even reasonable for everyone to just split everything they have with everyone else in an entire nation?? It's absurd. When Castro took over, the wealthy had other people jammed into their homes (if they were allowed to remain in them themselves) and literally were stripped of any valuables they had. Would you find it acceptable if armed men came to your home and demanded the contents? To have it stripped to the bare walls for the good of the state?
Think... You don't have a choice in the matter, other than give up everything you've ever worked for, or be shot.

The question is, where did the valuables end up? The answer: the communist elites.

No man is free from the will to power, not even communist worker 'heroes' like Che and Castro. (Let no one forget, Che was a hired goon, a paid mercenary from Argentina, eventually betrayed by Castro himself.) Cuba had a very strong economy before Castro seized power. There was a time when US dollars and Cuban dollars were freely interchanged. Only *after* Castro took over did the economy falter. Before you blame the US embargo for this, consider that every other country in the world has normal relations with Cuba.

It's not the United States' fault that Castro's communist scheme has failed.

Re:for always and eternity

[schweinhund]

I suppose it means nothing to you in your smug, patrician outlook that the tourist destination you go to is built on the backs of the bruised. People like you make me sick. You're guiltless as long as you can have a good time, just like those you would seek to demonize.

Re:for always and eternity

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds to me like you haven't a clue as to what the OP was saying. The US Gov't did the exactly the right thing by returning him to his father against the wishes of the looney Cuban community in Florida which spend a great deal of energy trying to prevent Elian's return. It is that same Florida community of exiled Cubans that has prevented the US from having any kind of normal relation with the government of Cuba.

Re:for always and eternity

[Uerige]

That being said the reason I think US tourists get such a bad rap with other tourists is because they like to travel around in large groups by tour bus.

Nope. It's because they're loud and always act like they own the place.

Re:for always and eternity

[Knuckles]

see if you can get past the carefully controlled tourist traps and look at the utter poverty and squalor people are forced into.

You make it sound as if you'd have to strangle the guards or something. In fact you just rent a car and drive wherever you want and talk to anyone you want.

Re:for always and eternity

[Knuckles]

I just wanted to say thanks.

Re:for always and eternity

[Knuckles]

The average slashdot reader knows the difference between communism and capitalism

You must be new here.

Re:for always and eternity

[808140]

What's offensive is when someone calls you obscene names in public for some perceived slight, ...

I don't know your situation, but by your use of the word "perceived", you clearly are judging that whatever slight the foreigner imagined you'd committed was not egregious enough to incite their reaction. While I personally don't see swearing at strangers to ever be necessary, it is important to realize that you may very well have inadvertently done something that, within the foreigner's cultural context, was not acceptable and warranted such a response.

It's also possible, as you say, that they were just assholes. Every country has those. But don't immediately assume that you did something tiny and they just flew off the handle for no reason. Some things that you wouldn't think twice about doing in your own country are extremely insulting in someone else's. For example, in much of the Middle East and in some parts of Africa, the thumbs up gesture, elsewhere considered an indication of excellence, is equivalent to giving someone the finger or worse, and actually means something like "up yours, asshole."

In China, people take insults to their person very seriously. Whereas in Europe or the US, people routinely swear at others in anger, you'd best not think of doing the same in China unless you're prepared to back it up with your fists -- to let someone insult you in a public place and get away with it constitutes a significant loss of face, and Chinese people are unlikely to put up with it -- street fights are thus common. I'm sure you didn't swear at anyone, but this just demonstrates how the notion of what constitutes a "measured" response differs culturally. You may be afforded some cultural leeway in China if you're white, but if you're east asian, you can forget about it.

I can only comment on the countries I've lived in, but as an expat brat, I think I've lived in enough places to know that if people are swearing at you on anything resembling a regular basis, you are probably behaving in a way that is culturally inappropriate or maybe just inappropriate, period.

Discounting the offense you gave as nothing more than a "perceived" slight is, well, arrogant.

Re:for always and eternity

[Grishnakh]

I'm sorry, but nothing justifies physical confrontations in public; it's just barbaric. If a person has so little control over their emotions that they're willing to get into a brawl over some perceived slight, they really have serious anger management issues.

Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but so be it. A culture where people avoid physical confrontation unless absolutely necessary (e.g., some type of crime is about to happen), and are tolerant of others and simply ignore those they don't like, is superior to a culture where people get into fights because of perceived insults. The latter type of culture resembles a grade-school playground if you ask me.

Remember, if you get in a street fight here in the US, if the cops find out, you can count on going to jail, and getting a criminal record, and having trouble ever getting a decent job again. No one wants employees who are going to get involved in physical altercations.

Re:for always and eternity

[in5ane]

Hehe, when I went to Cuba, people seemed to think no Americans there was a plus point :) I loved it there, nice country, great people, and only a teensy hint of communist propaganda.

Re:for always and eternity

[808140]

Your views are yours to have. I suggest you avoid traveling anywhere substantially different from the US, though, unless you are willing to be more flexible.

Re:for always and eternity

[painlord2k]

I feel no guilty for the actions of my forefathers and foremothers? Do you advocate that the sins of the fathers and mother must fall on their children? I feel no guilty because I live better than others and I feel not envy because someone else live better then me. I feel no guilty if, to live free, I need to combat a war and win it.

Re:for always and eternity

[omfgnosis]

The process didn't end. See the proposed forced removal of Indians in Arizona and Nevada; the mining and or dumping of toxic waste on Indian lands in those regions and others; the sanctions on Iraq which consumed more than 1.5 million people; the continued occupation of 1/3 of the claimed US territory which even the US government admits was stolen without even a fraudulent claim thereto; the financing and arming of Israel while they do to Palestinians something not unlike what the US did to Indians.

Re:for always and eternity

[orasio]

Let's not talk about lack of freedom of speech, executions without trial, or with fake trials, because that is not inherent to Cuba and its regime.

I think you meant "unique", not "inherent". It certainly is inherent to Cuba and its regime since the current regime is the one practicing this behavior. It isn't unique, but that doesn't make it right. So why can't we talk about it? Did you make the same argument about embargoes of South Africa under apartheid?

Your correction is accurate.
I will be more specific. What I mean is that a change of regime in Cuba, for a regime favorable to the US (what the US seems to be looking for ) is not a way of fixing those things, because those things happen in the US, and in countries that have changed their regimes due to the US intervention. So I don't expect those things to to change if the embargo actually "worked".

You get decent health care and a good education...

Let me rephrase that more accurately: "You get health care and education...." Unless you consider health care "decent" when there isn't enough penicillin to go around, or when patients have to bring their own toilet paper to the hospital. Unless you consider education "good" when one of the primary measurements is how well you can recite government ideology.

Let me rephrase it, taking into account what you say: "You get health care and education on a level above most countries, and above many developed countries, including specifically the US, the ones that want to change their regime". Unless you think doctrine (ideology is not bad, per se) is only taught in communist countries, and universality is not important for education.
That doesn't count as decent, you are right.

Anyhow, all of my post was not about how nice Cuba is, but about the effect that the embargo is supposed to have.

Re:for always and eternity

[milette]

Cuba has many resources the US finds valuable -- makes a great place for offshoring the CIA's dirty work of holding people without charges, evidence or any kind of rights, imprisoning them for indeterminate amounts of time, subjecting them to interrogation and torture at leisure. Surely THAT would count for SOMETHING? C'mon - give the Cubans some PCs for putting up with it.

Re:for always and eternity

[Rogerborg]

To think the US doesn't has control of the security council is naive.

Fixed your typo. The US de facto dictates to the SC because if they ever get vetoed then they'll just go it alone and demonstrate how impotent and irrelevant the SC is; ultimately the US would just throw their toys out of the pram, withdraw their financial and military backing, and effectively end the whole UN as a working concept. The SC is just a vehicle for rubberstamping US foreign policy, you fucking chump.

Re:for always and eternity

[ClamIAm]

Bring back a couple of Cuban cigars and most likely, no one's going to notice it. Try bringing back a case and, at best it can be confiscated. At worst, you're looking at potential fines and prosecution.

Yet you still do not provide any data from (reputable) sources on this phenomenon. I refuse to believe an (essentially) anonymous poster on the Internet that "if you go to Cuba, the guv'mnt is gonna get you". Unless you can provide me with some hard data about the number of people getting charged/fined/arrested for this, I will continue to refuse to believe you.

PS: I know customs takes their job seriously. I got grilled by two different agents about whether I had any reindeer meat in my bags. Apparently lots of people coming back from Norway do that.

Re:for always and eternity

[Martin Blank]

(1) Riots, repression, and rationing may lead to Ahmadinejad's replacement, either in the next election or, vaguely possibly, sooner. While I don't think the ayatollahs will remove him, they may not back him in the next poll. The fact that many of his own supporters are now turning on him is an example of how sanctions are intended to work. Note that the rationing was put into effect under threat of a specific sanction (gasoline importation). Had Ahmadinejad decided to build more oil refineries instead of a nuclear program, it wouldn't have to worry about such sanctions.

(2) Iran is fully justified in developing a nuclear cycle, building nuclear power plants, and generally expanding its use of peaceful nuclear power, and I support any nation that wants to do this within the framework of the NPT. However, Iran's refusal to allow international inspectors to see everything that it has, and to turn over complete documentation, is a violation of the NPT, and is what is concerning the IAEA and the UN. The concerns also have to do with the type of reactor(s) being built (heavy water vs. light water), the ability of heavy water reactors to produce plutonium, and what Iran will be doing with the plutonium. Comments made by Ahmadinejad about wiping Israel off the map -- something Iran can't risk right now because of Israel's nuclear arsenal -- can only be seriously backed up by a nuclear arsenal. The coming of a nuclear holocaust probably does not worry him right now, because he expects the coming of the Mehdi, whom he believes will establish a universal and just Muslim kingdom before the Day of Resurrection.

Good.

[Mockylock]

"GEEV US OLPC OR WE KEEL YOU!"

They don't really give a shit about their people anyway. If we gave them OLPC's they'd take them and sell them, or use them for the government. Not only that, but if you were caught giving one to a little girl, they'd probably kill you, then behead the girl because it promotes learning.

Re:Good.

[BlueLightSpecial]

I see it as a good move also, it would be awesome to get technology in the hands of the youth of developing countries, but so many times aid is intercepted by the government, or whoever the "bad guys" are, and something that was intended to aid progress, helps aid regression

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

lol what the fuck do you know about Cuba that you didn't see on FOX?

Sit down, Rambo.

Re:Good.

[Mockylock]

I agree. There are so many ways they could help their people with fuel and other valuable economic riches, but they don't do it as-is. In fact, a lot of these places send government funded militias to seize all incoming RATIONS for their own use, regardless of who it's for. Even some countries who aren't blocked by sanctions will probably see this happen as a common occurence.

Sad, but true.

Re:Good.

[Mockylock]

I was leaning more toward Syria, but if you actually support Castro, you've got problems.

Go read a book.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's mind blowing to read a post like this, with an Archie Bunker quote in the signature.

You do know that show was making fun of people like Archie, right?

Re:Good.

[mujo]

"They don't really give a shit about their people anyway."

unlike the us government who gives much shit about their people, plunging 400 billions of dollars in a war for the oil industry, refuse to give health insurance to sick americans to cater for private insurance business, wiretap their citizens, ...

land of the free!

Re:Good.

[duranaki]

so, michael moore, at least you reveal yourself!

Re:Good.

[Weston O'Reilly]

"Freedom from paying for goods and services" has never been one of our freedoms. That is a recent perversion of the term.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

how the hell did this get modded insightful? only on slashdot.. /sigh

Re:Good.

[butlerdi]

Why ? Have you been there ? They have a much better society than they would have had the American Mafia continued running it. They have good education, reasonable health care and while not so much stuff, they do not have foreclosures and bankruptcies the likes that you have been experiencing. Not to mention the next round coming on about now. Even after all these years of embargo by their ever so caring neighbors to the North, they still smile much more than anywhere I have ever seen in the US. I think sir it is you who ought to read a book.

Re:Good.

[ichigo 2.0]

Does supporting Cuba mean you support Castro? Does supporting Bush mean you support the US?

Re:Good.

[fredrated]

Wow that post is really informative, you've help me meet my quota of learning something new each day.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

How did this blatant troll who calls himself Mockylock get modded insightful?

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you explain people risking their lives and the lives of their families to escape? Not a challenge per-se, just an honest question.

Re:Good.

[Elemenope]

I think GP was reacting to the rather more ridiculous contention that American politicians by and large give more of a crap about the people they govern than politicans in other countries. That the countervailing evidence manifests as health insurance being inaccessible for a huge swath of the working population (when a good portion of the rest of the world has amply demonstrated is not a necessary situation), and the prosecution of an transpatently profiteering war that has killed tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of Americans (which most of the rest of the world considered if not illegal than just plain stupid to get involved in), is simply a reflection of our own neuroses. Other countries screw over their people in different ways, according to different guiding ideologies.

Re:Good.

[zx75]

Umm, may I ask how the hell this got modded as Insightful? If I had mod points I would drop this as Flamebait more than anything.

I get that the US in general has some obsessive hatred of Cuba, but were you to actually go there and meet the people you would come back with the impression only of a society trying to survive under grinding poverty because they cannot trade with a lot of foreign nations due to the embargo, NOT one of wanton cruelty as the Parent is trying to suggest.

Take it from someone who has seen it firsthand.

Re:Good.

[westlake]

Not only that, but if you were caught giving one to a little girl, they'd probably kill you, then behead the girl because it promotes learning.

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 97%
male: 97.2%
female: 96.9% (2003 est.) World Factbook - Cuba

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

sure they are smiling to foreign turists who come from Europe, Canada (or even some from the US) with pockets stuffed with cash that they earn in their evil oppressive capitalist economies, but just ask a Cuban in Miami who can speak freely what life in Cuba is really like for ordiany people.

Re:Good.

[Mockylock]

Do you think Castro would allow PC's to be given to children in Cuba, even if they were allowed to send them there?

Support groups and other organizations from the US attempt to defy the government and help Cubas citizens, but are usually in great danger of being intercepted by it's own government.

Do you think there would be half the problems in their society if Castro was gone? Besides, how many presidents have come and gone in the US since his life-long rule, and everyone still has the same opinion.

I don't hate Cubans, but being a lifelong communist dictator and not changing your ways, allowing your country to starve.. isn't USA's problem. Anything you give him will be used against you or thrown back in your face.

I feel bad for their children. I really do. But, you're blind to think that Castro would allow anything of the sort.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

"They don't really give a shit about their people anyway. If we gave them OLPC's they'd take them and sell them, or use them for the government."

Bullshit. How do you know that? Who told you that?

Or are you just running on what Fox+CNN are telling you?

I am always amazed at the amount of un-informed assumptions that are made about "others" by usa residents. Sigh.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

The anti communist propaganda worked well: now americans are deeply convinced that owning equals knowing. Well, surprise! It doesn't. Even remotely.

If the education and cultural level of the average US Joe Sixpack was even one half of the average cuban, you wouldn't be here writing this nonsense but rather doing actually something to help educate your fellow citizen to change your country for better.

Re:Good.

[butlerdi]

Well, initially it was the upper and middle classes that stood to loose their wealth due to redistribution and probably some due to their assistance to the people who were at the receiving end of the revolution. Now, after 30+ years of sanctions there are people who wish for more money and the things that accompany it, the same as immigrants from other countries.

I have spent some time in Cuba and have had many interesting conversations regarding the revolution. The funny thing is that many seem to think the embargo is funny. A cigar that sells for 5 Euros in Europe sells for 5 times than on the US market. It is always fun to watch US tourist queue up to purchase them wherever they are available.

Not everyone in the world is dying to leave their country and move to the US, no matter what the boys at Fox say. Rupert is not even there most of the time.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now you can blow off the rest of the day!

Re:Good.

[Mockylock]

You're right. It has nothing to do with the dictator that's been in there most of his life and refuses to step down.

Besides, we've had how many presidents in office since he's been in? It could have been dropped, right?

The government has now gained massive income from oil fields, but do you think it starving citizens will see any of it? Please.

In the states, there is impeachment.. in Cuba you have no choice. The US isn't to blame for him being completely insane.

The embargo IS past it's prime, but you can't put ALL the blame on the US.

Again, most of my first post was based on comments to Syria.. but, you get my drift.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yay. High literacy in a country where books are routinely banned. Such authors as MLK Jr. and George Orwell. yeah, Cuba is wonderful. The left-leaning garbage on slashdot is nauseating.

Re:Good.

[PinkyDead]

For one second, ignore the propaganda machine that has you brain washed.

Here's one very small county and its largest trading is oppressing it economically for 50 years for purely idealogical reasons. It doesn't take much though to figure out that life is not going to be easy - and some people will choose to leave.

People all over the world are risking their lives and the lives of their families for a better future or way of life. There are even people leaving the US every day for a better life somewhere else.

If the embargo was lifted tomorrow, Castro or no, people would stop leaving. But that will never happen, because the US is terrified that Cuba might prove that a Communist state can work.

Re:Good.

[Mockylock]

I knowww... ;) I didn't add that it was more centered around the Syria government.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

No government gives a shit about their people. The only difference between any two governments is how much power they have over the lives of the people they don't give a shit about.

Re:Good.

[corbettw]

That the countervailing evidence manifests as health insurance being inaccessible for a huge swath of the working population

Huge swath? The latest numbers show that 40 million (out of 300 million) people don't have health insurance. The vast majority of these are self employed individuals who choose not to have health insurance. You must have some bizarre definition of "huge".

Re:Good.

[stoolpigeon]

there are a ton of comments about how only the US is in on the embargo - and that not a single other country joins them in it. Now you say that it is a crushing embargo that a 'lot' of nations are enforcing. just as a point of curiosity - which is it?

Re:Good.

[number11]

How do you explain [Cuban] people risking their lives and the lives of their families to escape?

The same way you explain everybody else who risks their lives in order to sneak into the US? You know, maybe the ones that the big national debate on "amnesty" is about? Cubans get automatic "amnesty", they don't have to worry about being rounded up by the cops, like the rest of the "illegals".

Re:Good.

[WilliamSChips]

The guy's probably a Tom DeLay supporter. Did you know that the Tom DeLay Legal Defense Fund actually used a segment of the Colbert Report where Colbert was pretending to support DeLay as evidence that he should be let go?

Re:Good.

[treak007]

and by blatant troll, you mean someone who shares a differing opinion then yourself.

Re:Good.

[ceejayoz]

Choose to not have health insurance? Are you kidding?

Re:Good.

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

If the embargo was lifted tomorrow, Castro or no, people would stop leaving. But that will never happen, because the US is terrified that Cuba might prove that a Communist state can work.
Well said tovarisch, you should join the John Kerry awkward comedy tour. That's is the funniest thing I've seen on the internet in a while. Actually, the reason why the embargo won't be lifted as long as Castro draws breath is the Cuban ex-pats in Florida would turn on which ever political party lifted the embargo, and Florida is a "swing" state in presidential elections. HTH

Re:Good.

[houghi]

land of the free!

Or as Osama Bin Laden says: "I am still free, how about you?"

Re:Good.

[Elemenope]

I'm of the philosophy that proportionality is irrelevant when it comes to existential conditions like suffering. That is to say, roughly, a million people dying early through lack of health insurance is a 'huge swath' whether it is a million amongs three million, or a million amongst three hundred million. And seeing as how it is forty million amongst who-cares-how-large a population, that qualifies in my mind as, to put it mildly, a 'huge swath'.

And, as another poster put it sharply, nobody 'chooses' to not have health insurance. Self-employed people have a hard time getting insurance at the same rates as large employers, because large employers benefit from huge quantities of corporate welfare and preferential deals regardings scale when they deal with HMOs that somehow never trickle down to self-emloyed folk. And, just for the record, nobody willingly chooses to die early, which in the vast majority of cases is what not having health insurance practically means. BTW, most of the uninsured aren't self-employed people; most of the uninsured are children of self-employed people. And they, roughly, didn't have any choice whatsoever in their circumstances.

Re:Good.

[Hugonz]

Of course you did not meet those who oppose the government, because they're either killed by a firing squad or in jail. If those you met opposed the government, they'd be too scared to tell you anyway. You met those who came to accept their poverty as something not caused by their government, but by "Yankee Imperialism"

Even if there were no embargo against Cuba, citizens there don't have freedom to produce or exchange goods, do business, or own any means of production (and even a backyard raised pig is considered so). They can only produce as far as they are employed by the Cuban government; and the Cuban government maintains a policy of "austerity", that is, poverty for everyone but party officials. Even if you could buy them, you won't be sold imported goods in government run shops(everything is run by the government), or a cellphone, or use any of the services intended for foreigners only.

The US may not be the land of the free, but comparing Cuba favorably does not lessen the fact that Cuba is a ruthless communist dictatorship that cares very little about their own citizens.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand the irrational fear of not having health insurance. I think most people don't realize, that in aggregate, you are better off without health insurance- if that were not true, the health insurance companies would all be out of business.

Now no, its not for everyone, but my company pays nearly all of my health insurance costs ( I end up paying something like $20/month) and yet I have still lost out on the deal the past few years, only going to the doctor maybe once a year. If health insurance continues to creep up in price, I simply won't pay and I will take my chances, just like nearly everyone did up until about 50 years ago.

Health insurance is not something that is absolutely required for life here on planet Earth.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

In the states, there is impeachment

Not one single president has ever been impeached. Nixon broke far fewer laws than Bush, but our politicians only grumble about impeaching Bush. It was reported that Bush had broken over 700 laws a year ago, yet no one has began impeachment proceedings and his term is nearly finished.

So we have impeachment on paper, just like we have freedom from illegal searches and seizures on paper. The reality is a bit different, it seems.

The truth, as has been made abundantly clear in this thread, is that how things are in Cuba runs counter to US ideals, not the reality of how things are in the US.

Re:Good.

[fishbowl]

>Not one single president has ever been impeached.

More precisely, no impeachment has led to a conviction in the Senate.

>Nixon broke far fewer laws than Bush.

Do you know the specific laws that Nixon broke?

Can you make a legitimate case that Bush violated the law? Which exact laws did he break, when and how, and what evidence do you bring to the table? Do you think you could persuade a Congressional hearing to accept your argument?

Many people are of the opinion that a genuine legal case against Bush is easily made; they accept it as a foregone conclusion. But when it comes time to articulate the case, much of the evidence consists of speculation and prejudice, and the argument tends to be made from a position of ignorance of the law.

It's a good thing that Bush is the soon-to-be-former President and this administration is exiting. I'm no fan or supporter of the Bush-Cheney bunch. But at the same time, even as I accept that there might be a case to be made for impeachment, when you try to view the merits of such a case beyond the armchair analyist phase and start to consider how it would actually go, in terms of procedure and evidence.

Some good arguments have been made, and in particular, Ramsey Clark's Articles of Impeachment make a well-reasoned complaint. But if you had to be the one to take this a step further, what justification would you use for each of these articles and what evidence would you bring? There are strong defenses for some of these complaints, and others while shameful actions, are simply not crimes.

The belief that impeachment is a foregone conclusion actually tends to do harm to the legitimate business of opposition to the current Presidential Administration. Fortunately, it's just about over anyway.

Re:Good.

[dosquatch]

Huge swath? The latest numbers show that 40 million (out of 300 million)

And you suggest that 40,000,000, or 13.5% of the population, is trivial?

This is about 5x the population of the state in which I live. I consider that pretty damned significant.

Re:Good.

[MightyYar]

How can you possibly say that Cuba "has a much better society than they would have had the American Mafia continued running it." That is pure speculation.

The fact is that Cuba took everything from the rich and... kept it. The plantations are still there, and the same people still work on them. The people of Cuba went from being poor plantation workers to being... poor plantation workers. Sure, they may be doing okay right now, but just 10 years ago they were starving. What other country in the Caribbean had a famine? Haiti, that's who. What a nice club Castro is in there.

Castro promised revolution - he delivered a dictatorship.

Not that I am excusing the US's ridiculous embargo, but Castro brought it on himself by forcing out all of the educated and powerful people. They are still a community and they hold enough political sway in the US to try invasions and sustain embargoes. What did he expect to happen? The rich people would all just go away and not try to get back their homes and power? You keep seeing the same thing with the dictatorships in Africa - the loosing "group" sets up shop in a neighboring country until they are strong enough to start a new rebellion.

Re:Good.

[MightyYar]

It is important to note that those people are without health insurance, not health care. Any one of those 40 million people can walk into any US emergency room and receive treatment - it is illegal to refuse treatment.

It's not an ideal system, and I am a big fan of a health care overhaul - but it doesn't do anyone much good to make the problem seem worse than it is.

Re:Good.

[Elemenope]

The problem is, indeed, that bad. Emergency care is like a bandaid for a bullet-wound for a very large percentage of medical conditions. Chronic and recurring conditions, from asthma to cancer, are not well managed much less treated by punctuated visits to a local emergency room. The problem is that refusing access to health insurance simply prices out a large portion of the population away from management of chronic and recurring illnesses which will, in the end if not treated, kill them much earlier than if they recieved treatment. I agree it is nice that at least we have recognized it is a bad idea to let people die of acute or accidental conditions simply because they are poor, but it is nevertheless the tip of the iceberg.

Re:Good.

[Ardipithecus]

Notice that given the opportunity they trade the joy of the rusted cage for the horrors of our each man for himself society.

Re:Good.

[MightyYar]

The problem that I have is that people don't talk about the actual difficult decisions that need to be made - health care has to be rationed, but by who and by what criteria? Right now it is obviously rationed by economics. Shall we ration cancer treatment by age? By existing health? Do we preferentially treat a 20-year-old heroin addict over an otherwise healthy 80-year-old?

We have worked this out in other areas - transplants are currently rationed out based on various criteria, for instance. But first we have to admit that not everyone can get free, unlimited health care. Right now the conversation isn't honest or genuine... on the one side you have people resisting any changes at all - which is nuts because there is clearly a problem. On the other side you seem to have people pushing for a full-blown socialist system, which is nuts because it has drawbacks that Americans probably won't accept.

Americans probably will accept some mixed system... some level of rationed, minimal care for the uninsured masses, while still allowing a private system to exist in parallel for people who hold private insurance or have enough money to bypass waiting lists or care rationing. But you never hear anyone proposing this, and so we just have the same silly argument over and over again, ever since Hillary Clinton's report way back in '93.

Her plan was a bit naive in that it included a big pile of government regulation to "improve" health care, but I like that it at least tried to keep much of the system private - if regulated. I think a basic government-run clinic system would be sufficient to take pressure off of emergency rooms and provide some of the longer-term care that you describe. This system should be funded at the Federal level and administered at the state level... while this might increase some complexity, I really like the concept of states acting like laboratories which each can copy from the successes and learn from the mistakes of others.

Oh, and we have to let the government negotiate for drug prices in the clinics! :)

Re:Good.

[trevor-ds]

What if you got in a car accident? Had a previously unknown heart defect? Fell down a flight of stairs and broke your back?

Many young people think they don't need health insurance because they're healthy. Well, you're healthy now, but an accident could make you very unhealthy very quickly, and your medical bills could easily be more than you could possibly afford. In that situation, taxpayers end up paying your way.

Try this New York Magazine article which includes the story of a healthy young guy with no health insurance who got appendicitis.

Re:Good.

[toriver]

Yes it's better to leave book bans to school boards and the like. "Harry Potter promotes witchcraft" and all that American jazz. George Orwell's 1984 was attacked by American pressure groups as communist propaganda. See the irony there?

Or were you really saying that the CIA, makers of the CIA World Factbook, are left-leaning? Someone tell the prez!

Re:Good.

[Elemenope]

I agree wholeheartedly that the calculus of resource distribution is hideously complicated in the case of Health Care. What especially seems to complicate the matter are two factors: one, we have a hard time coming to terms with monetizing the worth of human life (an eminently reasonable hestitation, I think), and two, sickness and health are hideously unpredictable factors where things even as simple as length of treatment cannot be determined ahead of time.

My thing is we can make even reasonable conservative assumptions about these factors and still come to a conclusion that strongly tends towards the favorability of greatly expanding care. For example, economically everyone suffers when a person is sick, and benefits when a person is well. Even a poor laborer who is sick is a huge potential economic liability for society, as his capacity to continue earning not only affects his employer (who depends on his labor) but also his family, and the likelihood that they will maintain or improve their living circumstances (which relates to the probabilities that they will engage in behaviors, like crime, that are economically net-negatives).

If a smoothly functioning productive society is a healthy society, then we should err a bit on the side of improving care despite increasing costs, till at least we reach a level of strictly diminishing returns. I think a mixed system might work, but only if there were a serious (not simply nominal) attempt to provide decent subsidized medical coverage for preventative care and a decent amount of continuing or chronic care, such that those who depend upon supplementary private coverage are driven to doing so for reasons of comfort and not necessity. I don't believe that the HMO industry will want for customers in such a situation; they can still sell their Lexuses and Rolls Royces of medical coverage even if everyone is guaranteed a Toyota Corolla, and people capable of paying will undoubtedly still buy it.

Re:Good.

[corbettw]

And, as another poster put it sharply, nobody 'chooses' to not have health insurance.

First off, you can't say that "nobody" makes that choice, not in a population of 40 million. I guarantee there's at least one person who has knowingly chosen not to have health insurance.

Second, the self-employed who do not have health insurance do choose not to have it, because, for them, it's better to be self-employed without insurance than to work for someone else and have it. You might not agree with their rationale, but there are millions of people who share it, and it seems to work for them in the main.

Lastly, children suffer the consequences of their parents decisions. That's life, and it convey any responsibility on you or me to change things for them. You can't force adults to conform to your values, not without sacrificing some pretty important values (like liberty) along the way.

Re:Good.

[Elemenope]

Weaving through the nitpicks... :)

I guarantee there's at least one person who has knowingly chosen not to have health insurance.

Of course, you are right. At least one almost certainly exists. I figured I was communicating with an audience that could distinguish between descriptive statments meant to generalize over a class and those that are meant to apply directly to every member of that class. If it makes you feel better, I'll insert the word "nearly" before "nobody" and now there is no more ambiguity of that sort.

Second, the self-employed who do not have health insurance do choose not to have it, because, for them, it's better to be self-employed without insurance than to work for someone else and have it...

I strongly suspect that they "choose" not to have insurance because they "choose" to prioritize their shelter and food over health when making economic decisions for themselves. This "choice" is due to the inaccessibility by price of private insurance to individuals as opposed to plans bundled with corporate employment.

Lastly, children suffer the consequences of their parents decisions. That's life, and it convey any responsibility on you or me to change things for them. You can't force adults to conform to your values, not without sacrificing some pretty important values (like liberty) along the way.

That is true to a point. However, one cannot be so obtuse as to recognize that independent of their parents, children are *human beings* and as such have the right to pursue their continued right to exist, above and beyond some conception of parental sovereignty over childrens' lives. If a parent makes a decision callously indifferent to the continued survival of a child under their care, it is not a significant "infringement of liberty" to either aid the child apart from the parents' wishes or remove te child from the care of the person who gives no weight to their continued health. As you elude, these sorts of chains of logic if not mitigated by a proper respect of domain can lead to infringements of *real* parental rights, such as teaching a child whatever values they desire and correcting and punishing children within certain bounds of reason (a parent does not have the right, for example, to torture a child in order to enforce discipline). But the idea that a parent abrogates their responsibility for the basic care of their child is a "too bad, so sad, but not my problem" sort of situation is morally repugnant and unduly eliminative of a society's role in protecting its members from harm not resultant from that own members' actions.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

First, isn't it true that the non-refusal of treatment that you're thinking of is life-saving emergency treatment, as opposed to the more usual ailments that make up most health care? Second, treatment may be offered to the non-insured, but the cost could very well be personal bankruptcy.

Re:Good.

[WilliamSChips]

Is that why trips to the US from places like Europe and Canada are at an all-time low? There are two major issues on which every civilized nation in the world except the United States has fallen in one place: death penalties and universal healthcare.

Re:Good.

[WilliamSChips]

How is referencing facts from the Central Intelligence Agency socialism?

Re:Good.

[greenrom]

So then why do we see Cuban's risking their lives on makeshift rafts trying to reach Florida soil unnoticed so they can claim amnesty? They do this leaving all their possesions behind, knowing that if they succeed they will not be able to return, and if they don't succeed and are turned back at sea, they will likely be punished for their actions when they arrive back in Cuba. If things are so good in Cuba, why would anyone bother trying to escape to Florida? It can't just be the higher standard of living because they try to escape to Mexico too, only Mexico sends Cubans back when they find them. Maybe Cubans should build slightly better boats and head south to Venezuela. I hear they have a good health care system.

Re:Good.

[Trogre]

You're right of course, but go have a look at the US/Mexican border on Google Earth some time. There's a hell of a lot more cars backed up on one side than the other. Maybe one side just has really slow border control...

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in Cuba in February. A local asked for a copy of the English-language edition of Granma (the only national newspaper and mouthpiece of the Party). We started chatting, and, discussing food, he told me about a drink made out of sugar-cane; I told him about maple syrup.

Then a policeman whistled him over and took away his ID card. I insisted that the card be returned, and then both of us were taken to the police station. No problem for me, but the local got about twenty minutes of questioning before his release.

Cuba's a nice place to visit. The education system and healthcare systems are probably good. But for the Cuban people it remains a police state.

The embargo is counter-productive though. Of course it impoverishes the island, but it also gives Castro a bogeyman to blame for all the problems. Cuba would become free faster if the embargo were lifted.

Re:Good.

[Trogre]

I think you might be confusing Cuba with the Middle East.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Genesis 1:32 And God typed C-x C-c

There fixed it for ya.

Re:Good.

[Lost Engineer]

I want health insurance with a $5000 deductible. Of course I want to pay much less for it.

You have to do a few horrible things to people with no health insurance or else there'd be no incentive. The reason HMOs were created, however, is to convince the healthy to subsidize the sick. Group policies are the product of retarded tax laws.

Re:Good.

[KayakFun]

I've been there twice, and the cuban people really suffer. The embargo halted a lot of technology entering the country, making it a live museum for tourists, but even without the embargo they would be too poor to afford any of it. There is a lot of prostitution from poor girls (their own will, not pushed by pimps). Since the russian stopped their money-feed, the economy is turning into a tourism-only income. The only people besides the government who have it good are the owners of the "casas particular" who earn tourist money by renting out 2 rooms in their house.

The cuban government watch their people closely, and you could reported by a neighborhood spy for having an unfavorable opinion on the government. It is forbidden for a cuban to approach a tourist or sit at the same table in a bar. Yet it happens, tourists driven towards the authentic bars and neighborhoods by romantic Buena Vista Social Club tunes are meeting cubans hungry for democracy and freedom. They are educating themselves indeed, but not via the government. It takes another president to understand that democracy and freedom is possible without capitalism. Maybe a few other presidents. Let's hope they get there peacefully.

So the embargo will not throw over the government, tourism will.

Re:Good.

[butlerdi]

I agree. However the part about watching their people is not just them. This also happens in almost every South and Central American country, and increasingly in the Northern ones as well. People not having money to buy stuff is also correct however could this not be due at least in part to the embargo. The revolution could not have happened if there was not frustration with the system. There were problems then as now. However I would guess that being pimped by your own people is better than by a foreign power. The fact that there is poverty, as in all underdeveloped countries is a by product of many policies. I have never thought much of Castro but I can not say that he has been an altogether asshat either. It must be hard to run a country while your nearest neighbor is scheming to kill/overthrow you, blocking trade, funding mercenaries and ex pats, constantly enticing people to defect and all.The Cuban population of Florida is not devoid of their own problems either. I can honestly say that when I worked there I met many people who believed that life was meaningful and that the future would be better. These people were not planning on leaving, but hoping to find a solution to their problems.

Re:Good.

[corbettw]

There are some interesting points in here. There are a few things I want to rehash, though:

This "choice" is due to the inaccessibility by price of private insurance to individuals as opposed to plans bundled with corporate employment.

This is generally true (though not as much as many think, private insurance is sometimes cheaper than that offered by employers, especially mine). However, it doesn't remove the fact that, to many people, being "their own boss" is more important than anything else. If health insurance were more important, they would work for a larger company, or make sacrifices somewhere else in their budget, to get that insurance.

As for children who aren't covered, I should have brought this up before: there already exist programs for children to get free or cheap health insurance, if their parents don't have their own for whatever reason. So any children who are not currently covered are not because their parents have not signed up for these programs, perhaps due to ignorance of their existence. So the solution isn't to create a monstrous bureaucracy, it is to inform people of the choices they have available to them already.

And, no, I'm not referring to Medicaid, I'm referring to programs run by states to provide private health insurance to children.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

lol, what the fuck do you know about lol that you didn't see on lol?

You're a lol fucking lol, bitch. Get a clue and pull your dick out of your ass for just a minute and drop your Communist apologist routine long enough so we can snip it off and serve it up to you with a wrapper with lol written on it, so you can lol it right down your throat until you lol the remains of your would-be chemical addled lolbabies all over your mom's basement.

Re:Good.

[schweinhund]

The reason why they're smiling so much when you give them your 'imperialist' dollars is because they Have To. Anybody who would break the illusion might just have their families on the blacklist.

Think about what you're describing as positive points... None of those things are impossible without communism. In other words, you don't have to give up everything you have, your rights, your freedom, just to have good education and healthcare.

How do you think things got the way they are in Cuba? Do you think it was a Food Not Bombs commie-punk circle jerk which magically made the country fall into ruin?

They took everything by force, not by a peaceful decision to march along with Marxism. Communism was forced upon the Cuban people, and nobody with any sense should see that as a good way to political change.

Re:Good.

[Elemenope]

I think you make some interesting points. However, I think that something which runs beneath your arguments is an unspoken presumption that I think is evidentially problematic: human beings are rational cost/benefit maximizers. I don't believe that people, even in regards to large or life-changing decision, tend to use exclusively or even preferentially the logical-rational mode to make decisions. Emotionality, sentimentality, schizotypy, and prejudice tend to be at least equal factors to reason in any major decision. As such, while I agree that increasing the size or ponderousness of a bureaucracy is not a solution, simply advertising options and presenting choices often is not sufficient (especially when the goal is to induce a person to act on behalf of a disabled actor over whom they hold responsibility, such as their child).

Likewise, while the decision to remain self-employed can in many cases be due to a simple preference to "not have a boss", that decision and the resultant impoverishment of health coverage has effects (economic and social) that radiate far outside of the domain of that person. Since as you say (and I agree) it is important that a society not interfere with the choice simpliciter to not have a boss which for that person seems to better approach their pursuit of fulfillment, happiness, etc., that nonetheless a society can and should act to limit the impact or frequency of those negative effects to others that result from the decision. Since the pursuit of happiness and the actions and states that a person chooses to achieve it need not be and usually are not strictly logical, any social system of support should operate in a mode that is effective even in the relative absence of rational actors.

Oh darn

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess Hizbollah and the Janjaweed won't get their laptops now. They worked so hard for them, it's not fair ;_;

Re:Oh darn

[Anonymous Coward]

Hizbollah is in Lebanon. You see, muslim's don't take credit for fighting. It's an old habit. (has something to do with going after entire families instead of fighting in an army, a rich muslim tradition started by the paedophile prophet himself)

Muslims to muhammad : you've already told us we can rape the women we keep captive for ransom. Does it matter if we impregnate them ?
muhammad : no, it's in allah's hands, go ahead and enjoy

(muslims that get offended should take some "pride" in their religions ways ... or change their holy texts : e.g. this one : http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsun nah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3432

(accepted as the literal law by both sunni and shia, so people : don't worry about raping muslima's : it's allowed by sharia, the law they prefer above america's law, of course if you get caught sharia also gives the family the right to kill you, and obviously you'll have to avoid the infidel police that somehow thinks muslims will protect them in return)

Re:Oh darn

[Anonymous Coward]

you must be one of those effing judish c*nts...

Re:Oh darn

[Anonymous Coward]

Hizbollah is in Lebanon.

Hezbollah enjoys significant support from Iran and Syria.

not forever

[falcon5768]

Just the foreseeable future. Regimes change (thank god) and governments change. Little over 30 years ago we where Irans friend and traded major arms to her (including F-14 fighters and their powerful at the time Phoenix missiles) in less than 3 years they became our sworn enemy.

things change fast in the world

Re:not forever

[Dancindan84]

Yeah, but Castro is some kind of immortal zombie communist.

Re:not forever

[Anonymous Coward]

And three years later we're friends again.

Re:not forever

[butlerdi]

Not to mention the arms to Iraq (10 years ago), Syria (Not so long ago), Osama et al (all during Soviet Afganistan) and ever so many others.

Re:not forever

[Scrameustache]

Just the foreseeable future. Regimes change (thank god) "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ..." And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

Please keep your imaginary friends out of your foreign policies.

Re:not forever

[Anonymous Coward]

harhar zombie... at least the tyrant fucker will make his deathbed soon...

Re:not forever

[ScouseMouse]

No no. His tenure as leader is nearly up. Now the only way he can go and fight world tyranny is in person.
I dunno about you, but if he's up for it, I'm willing to sub him a few hundred dollars for a rifle and a plane ticket to the mess he made in Iraq.

Re:not forever

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the problem is with the current regime, but rather the political system: a two-party system is only that much better than a one-party one...

Re:not forever

[captainjaroslav]

...and wasn't it about 20 years ago that we were calling them an enemy AND selling them arms? (To support the noble [Honduran] freedom fighters in Nicaragua, of course.)

Re:not forever

[john83]

Yeah, but Castro is some kind of immortal zombie communist. Lucky you guys have Bruce Campbell so.

Re:not forever

[aminorex]

It's not necessary for regimes or governments to change, in order for relationships to change.
Donald Rumsfeld was in Iraq shaking hands with Saddam Hussein and pitching chemical weapons
to him under Reagan. In less than ten years the US started bombing Iraq, and hasn't stopped since.
In less than 25 years we installed a puppet regime that hanged Saddam Hussein for using the
chemical weapons which we supplied. It's purely a matter of convenience and politics. When it serves
the interests of an amoral SOB with power, you die, whether you are in Dallas, Memphis, New York,
London, Moscow, Shanghai, Havana, Gaza or Baghdad. The trick is keeping power out of the hands
of the amoral SOBs. For this purpose are governments instituted among men, and when they no
longer serve those ends, new governments are required in order to fill that critical void -- regardless
of whether the old should persist or dissolve. That's the essence of a system of checks and balances.
When one system of checks and balances becomes consolidated, and power becomes a monolith of
corruption, there are two ways to restore balance. One is to overthrow and replace the old system.
Another is to add to it a separate check and balance mechanism, such as assassination politics.

Re:not forever

[Dancindan84]

Unfortunately the Necronomicon is hidden in a humidor somewhere in Canada. Bruce went to get it, but customs won't let him bring it back.

Re:not forever

[WilliamSChips]

What's funny is that President McKinley basically said the same thing.

Re:not forever

[falcon5768]

he'd just send Dick. Supposedly he is REAL good at shooting things.

Re:not forever

[falcon5768]

your facts are a little warped on the Saddam Donnie meeting. Donald never pitched chemical weapons at all, he was supposed to (by order of Regan) tell Saddam to STOP using them, but the US had such a fear of Iran at that point, that they (the cabinet) overruled Regan (without Ronnie knowing) and told Rumsfeld to not bring up the issue. Rumsfeld did bring it up with Tariq Aziz in a later meeting though, feeling it would be easier to talk to him about it, that Saddam.

Regan repeatedly in public though decried Iraq's use of chemical arms, and the US most certainly never supplied any technology, knowledge, or arms themselves.

Altruism doesn't exist

[athloi]

Altruism triggers pleasure centers like a drug or sex, which means that we do altruistic acts for ourselves, not for others. So don't expect the OLPC folks to cry out over this one. The original OLPC group wanted to construe themselves as philanthropists, and now Intel and others are moving in to scoop up this "new market." There are no gifts without strings.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[MBGMorden]

Yes but in some people cruel behavior triggers pleasure centers, where as in others altruistic behavior triggers pleasure centers. Therefore is can easily be deduced that despite the cause, some people, groups, etc, are more polite and caring of others than some others.

As such, saying that because there's a chemical reaction involved altruism doesn't exist, is like saying that life itself doesn't exist because we can explain all of it's functioning through biology. The explanation of it's function and inner workings does NOT invalidate the concept.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[gomiam]

Altruism triggers pleasure centers like a drug or sex, which means that we do altruistic acts for ourselves, not for others.

I find it interesting how you misread the article. Please let me refresh your memory with a couple of quotes from your own reference:

As it turns out, "That very same brain area not only tracks what is good for us, but what is good for others," he said.

Which means that the area that tracks what is good for us, tracks what is good for others. You read it as a pleasure response happening when we act altruistically (ergo altruism is ultimately egotistical), but it actually says that it tracks what is good for others (for example, it may as well activate when we watch someone succeed). But don't take my word for it, let's go back to the article:

"The fact that we find pleasurable activity in those mandatory tax-like situations strongly suggests the existence of pure altruism," he said.

Need I say more?

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, thanks for resolving the age-old philisophical and psychological debate regarding the origins and motivations of alturism with a one-page article from MSN.com. dipshit.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[tomee]

"we do altruistic acts for ourselves"

Muahahaha! I just gave some homeless guy a dollar, and now I feel good about myself! Muahahhaha!

Seriously, just because one feels good about being altruistic, that doesn't make one's acts any less generous.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[TheLink]

And I claim most people can learn to like something.

There's such a thing as acquired taste. So you could choose to acquire a taste for altruism, even if you don't have a strong innate liking for it.

Or you could choose it as a long term objective decision - many people do things that aren't pleasurable to them, but they get a sense of achievement at the end - even if it's just "Yeeha! Completed my goal".

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[Anonymous Coward]

"Seriously, just because one feels good about being altruistic, that doesn't make one's acts any less generous."

He never said anything about being generous. An act can be generous but not altruistic. They are often related, but they are not the same concept.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[kalirion]

Which means that the area that tracks what is good for us, tracks what is good for others. You read it as a pleasure response happening when we act altruistically (ergo altruism is ultimately egotistical), but it actually says that it tracks what is good for others (for example, it may as well activate when we watch someone succeed).

Exactly, we get pleasure when we watch someone succeed, so it is in our interests that others succeed. What's so hard to get?

"The fact that we find pleasurable activity in those mandatory tax-like situations strongly suggests the existence of pure altruism," he said.

Seems here his definition of "pure altruism" covers a case where you get pleasure after being forced to sacrifice for someone else. I'd say that pure altruism would be sacrificing for someone else while knowing that it will not make you feel better, and that you will not feel any worse if you don't do it.

Face it, a "good" person is one that:

• Feels good about doing good things
  
• Feels bad about not doing good things
  
• Feels bad about doing bad things
  
• Feels good (or at least not bad) about not doing bad things
  

Of course "good" and "bad" are subjective....

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[GauteL]

"Altruism triggers pleasure centers like a drug or sex, which means that we do altruistic acts for ourselves, not for others"

No, it means that altruistic acts are encouraged by our very nature. It does not mean that our only reasons for altruistic acts are selfish. Whether there is such a thing as true altruism or truly selfless acts is a debate as old as the debate about free will. Both of these issues are still firmly planted in the area of philosophy rather than science.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[tomee]

I know, but he was challenging the concept of altruism as something selfless, so I wanted to avoid the word.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[Anonymous Coward]

Both of these issues are still firmly planted in the area of philosophy rather than science.

Which means that, because these are things that cannot be answered, philosophers will make some answers up.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[DAtkins]

There was a funny Savage Love article where a woman broke-up with her boyfriend because she found out he had a foot fetish. Come to find out, she was a waitress who would come home to a nice foot massage. When she found out he was enjoying the massage as much as she was, she decided he was a freak. Not noticing that 1) he liked massaging her feet and 2) he wasn't asking for anything in return for it.

Dan's response to this writer was one of the funniest things I've read. The point being, we all do things for a reason. I don't help my friends move because I like moving things - I do it for the free beer. I buy girl scout cookies because I was once a scout myself (and the cookies are also awesome). I give stuff to Goodwill because it makes more economic sense than throwing it away. I've done Habitat because I enjoy carpentry. I'm a horrible, horrible person apparently :)

Wasn't there a Friends episode about this topic? Seriously though, if someone does something nice to me and ends up feeling bad for having done it - it's not really the kind of help that I want anyway...

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an evolutionary trait to ensure the collective survival of the species. Only an American could take that argument and use it to justify selfish greed. Why do you people hate yourselves so much? What will it take to rescue the fragile, damaged ego of the American psyche from its course of self destruction? You are unable to participate in the world as fellow men, as equals, as human beings. Consequently you will ends up with nothing but lonliness, isolation and poverty, because you think yourselves too good to stand shoulder to shoulder with humanity.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[lenester]

Why was this marked as flamebait? It's a valid argument. We do good things because they feel good; altruism is an adaptive trait, not a mark of enlightenment. Yes, the poster is obviously a raging cynic, but the statement that giving is not inherently meaningful does not deserve flippant derision.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[gomiam]

Exactly, we get pleasure when we watch someone succeed, so it is in our interests that others succeed. What's so hard to get?

There's a difference between getting pleasure because someone succeeds and getting pleasure because I help him to succeed. What's even more, I can still help someone and then see him not succeed (theoretically getting no pleasure).

Am I altruist only when the help I provide is successful in the end? No. If, as the article states, I get pleasure when someone succeeds, then there is altruism that doesn't lead to such pleasure (when it doesn't work). Eventually, a relation may be found, but this is certainly not it.

Face it, babies try to calm their distraught companions. It doesn't seem to bring them much pleasure, but they still do it. Feeling good about doing good or bad things doesn't seem to enter the equation.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[kalirion]

There's a difference between getting pleasure because someone succeeds and getting pleasure because I help him to succeed.

If you get pleasure from watching someone succeed, then you'll want others to succeed so you can experience the pleasure. Just because the pleasure is not from the ego boost of helping someone doesn't make it altruism. There was another study that showed that we get pleasure from seeing "bad guys get their just deserts for doing bad things", even if the bad things did not involve us in any way and we had no hand in dealing out the justice. Does that make it altruism? I think not.

What's even more, I can still help someone and then see him not succeed (theoretically getting no pleasure). Am I altruist only when the help I provide is successful in the end? No. If, as the article states, I get pleasure when someone succeeds, then there is altruism that doesn't lead to such pleasure (when it doesn't work).

Huh? When I bite into an apple, I expect it to taste good. If the apple turns out to be rotten on the inside, that didn't change the fact that the reason I bit into it was because I thought I'd enjoy it. Unless you're saying that you know in advance that you will not be able to help him succeed, but attempt it anyway? In that case you simply enjoy attempting to help. Or you think that an attempt to help will make the other person feel better, thereby making you feel better. Or you know you'll feel bad if you don't make the attempt.

Face it, babies try to calm their distraught companions. It doesn't seem to bring them much pleasure, but they still do it.

How do you know it doesn't bring them pleasure? What do you think is more pleasant - being next to a baby that's bawling it's eyes out or being next to one that's calm?

People are hardwired to do things they expect will make them feel good (or at least less bad.) People are either hardwired or conditioned to feel good when other people feel good. Put 2 and 2 together.

Re:Altruism doesn't exist

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason humans have reached the level of success that we have on this planet is because we have developed societies where the individual understands that helping others also helps theirself..
Societies need a certain level of fellow-feeling, and hence altruism, between citizens, as it helps in defending against threats to the polity. In the absence of threats, the threat reaction must still express itself, and so contention arises within society.

A bit misleading

[The Breeze]

I wouldn't say "ever"...both Cuba and Syria have made steps towards getting removed from the US ban list, and with Fidel teetering on death's edge, who knows what the future will bring.

Re:A bit misleading

[Odin_Tiger]

I thought Fidel had already died, and they were using a double? Has that been proven not to be the case now? TBH I haven't really heard anything about him or thought about it one way or another for quite a few weeks now, but now I'm curious...

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

The big problem seems to be that one of the major US swing states is full of asshats who won't die. Evicted from Cuba for being corrupt they are annoyed that the US hasn't managed (through incompetence, rather than lack of malice) to get their country back for them.

The sooner they pop their clogs the better. Cuba (especially the people of Cuba) don't deserve the treatment they get from the US and the rest of the world is rather mystified why it has taken the US so long to stop being an ass about the issue.

Re:A bit misleading

[giorgiofr]

I guess the rest of the world hasn't had Cuban missile bases a few km off their coast and those missiles pointed at them. It tends to lead to grudges being held, you see.

Re:A bit misleading

[RollingThunder]

You're right, the rest of the world has just had to put up with the US and Russia pointing enough missiles at each other for the residual damage to wipe out humanity multiple times over, for decades. We couldn't possibly understand how scary it was for you to have a few missiles in place in Cuba for a few months.

Re:A bit misleading

[mqduck]

Cuba... [has] made steps towards getting removed from the US ban list

You mean unlike before, when when they were trying to stay on it? Or like the way they've finally stopped trying to interfere in US affairs and hurt US industry (through an embargo!) like they did for 50 years? You're sadly mistaken if you think being on the list has anything to do with what Cuba does, other than not whatever we want them to.

Actually, the reason the embargo is being challenged is because US companies have realized they can make alot of money trading with Cuba. Those trading in goods that are excepted from the embargo (just food, IIRC) already do.

with Fidel teetering on death's edge, who knows what the future will bring.

The US government has fooled itself, through wishful thinking (the Bush regime doesn't have the best grounding in reality), that Castro will die and Cuba will suddenly realize they wanted to go back to being a US neo-colony all along. It's not going to happen.

Cuba is one of the friendliest nations on the World stage on Earth. Heck, they even offered to send doctors to New Orleans after Katrina (we gave no reply). Please don't blame Cuba for their treatment by the US.

Re:A bit misleading

[NMerriam]

I guess the rest of the world hasn't had Cuban missile bases a few km off their coast and those missiles pointed at them. It tends to lead to grudges being held, you see.

Most of the world has real borders with their enemies, with tanks and missiles and bombers able to cross at any time, and has learned to deal with it. We live in a little bubble protected by two vast oceans and think that anyone saying "boo" from a thousand miles away is a mortal threat.

Our embargo against Cuba is just a pointless grudge that serves one domestic political group and does a disservice to the people of both nations overall.

Re:A bit misleading

[giorgiofr]

The power of projection never fails to amaze me.

Re:A bit misleading

[XSforMe]

Not to go into history lessons but if you don't want people pointing missiles at you, don't go financing rebels/equipping invasion forces. Plain and simple.

Re:A bit misleading

[giorgiofr]

I wouldn't call it a pointless grudge - it was established in times of war (not open war, but still) and it makes perfect sense to inconvenience your enemy if you can, and don't even suffer any damage in doing so. So, why not?
As for the rest of the world, which is where I live I suppose, we have learned to "deal with it" but that does not mean we *like it* and wouldn't have it any other way. If you have the option to create further damage to your enemy, you just go ahead and do it. The fact that I am not in a position to do so does not mean that you should avoid it too in the name of... empathy? Or what?

Re:A bit misleading

[NMerriam]

it makes perfect sense to inconvenience your enemy if you can, and don't even suffer any damage in doing so....If you have the option to create further damage to your enemy, you just go ahead and do it. The fact that I am not in a position to do so does not mean that you should avoid it too in the name of... empathy? Or what?

Except that Cuba is not an "enemy" except to Cuban refugees in Florida. They're just a small state that has a government we dislike, but presents no real threat to us now that the Soviet Union is gone. And we certainly do suffer economically from the embargo -- if we didn't, there'd be no need to make a law against trading with them.

It isn't about empathy, it's about having Cubans see us as a prosperous ally they want to get closer to rather than as an adversary they need to set up barriers against. If we had easy tourism and trading with Cuba, it would take about 10 years for it to be one of the most pro-American places on Earth no matter what the government says about us. Money and prosperity have a strange way of bringing people closer.

Re:A bit misleading

[cdrguru]

Why do you think the US has anything Cuba wants anymore? In 1960 we had factories that made things that were needed in Cuba. In 1980 Cuba had 30-year-old cars they couldn't get parts for because they were made in the US.

Today everything is made in China and nothing is made in the US. Canada and Mexico make a lot of cars for the US, so I wouldn't think getting parts would be a problem for Cuba.

Really, what does the US have that Cuba could possibly want? Wal-Mart? Banks? High risk home mortgage companies?

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

The big problem seems to be that one of the major US swing states is full of asshats who won't die.

Agreed, let's swing a giant bat a Massachusetts and wipe it off the map!

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say "ever"...both Cuba and Syria have made steps towards getting removed from the US ban list, and with Fidel teetering on death's edge, who knows what the future will bring. Death. (of Fidel).

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the world has real borders with their enemies, with tanks and missiles and bombers able to cross at any time, and has learned to deal with it. We live in a little bubble protected by two vast oceans and think that anyone saying "boo" from a thousand miles away is a mortal threat.

The Soviet Union was a real enemy and their nuclear missiles were real weapons. Cuba's famous hero Che Guevara famously said that if he had control of the missiles during the Cuban Missile Crisis that he would have fired them at the US. There is a price to pay for escalating the Cold War and nearly bringing about World War III. The last World War killed 100 million. WW III was calculated to kill 2 billion. There really is no punishment too severe for a country that gambled the fate of the world in this way.

But I suppose that if we were to punish Cuba then we should punish Turkey in the same way (for US missiles). And we should note that the two puppeteers got off scot-free. The US and the Soviet Union are often excused in their roles of the Cold War in that they were just responding to threats from the other for their own safety. Perhaps the puppets should be excused as well.

The only problem with this is that Cuba is also a human rights abuser. But US policies obviously don't care about that (see Saudi Arabia). So what would happen if the embargo was dropped? It was before. And nothing changed. Cuba didn't become a free society. The return of US trade didn't make Cubans rich. During the time of the suspension of the embargo, Cuba was still a Soviet puppet and they still had nothing to trade to the world. I think we should drop the embargo for just that reason (except perhaps for military weapons). Cuba will no longer be able to whine about the embargo, but their society is so dysfunctional in the production of goods it will still effectively be in place.

Re:A bit misleading

[giorgiofr]

You are totally right but back then it made sense to establish the embargo. It's hard to go back on your decisions like you suggest. But I agree that US tourists would start a sudden deluge on money on Cubans and that would spell the beginning of a "strange friendship", as you say. I was talking purely about the historical situation.

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

Money for Cuban goods? Sure it's becoming less valuable all the time, but it hasn't become worthless quite yet.

Re:A bit misleading

[NMerriam]

Really, what does the US have that Cuba could possibly want?

Tourists.

Tourism is already one of the biggest parts of the Cuban economy, and that's from people who fly thousands of miles from Canada, Europe and beyond. The entire Caribbean basically exists off of tourism, and Cuba would be a gigantic new affordable destination only a few hours from every major American airport. If anyone should be lobbying to keep the embargo in place, it should be all the Caribbean countries that would lose American tourists because they're just a little bit farther.

Re:A bit misleading

[fishbowl]

>Tourism is already one of the biggest parts of the Cuban economy, and that's from people who fly thousands of miles
>from Canada, Europe and beyond.

Not only that, the tourist trade includes people who could take their pick of European, Asian, African, North and South American destinations, or anywhere in the Caribbean, and yet many choose Cuba.

To be sure, many Cuban hotels are shitholes, but there are some resorts that are extremely nice, and some wilderness areas that are attractive enough for "ecotourists" that Cuba remains a travel destination for many who can afford to go anywhere they want.

The powers that be in the USA don't want you to see anything of Cuba except pictures of Castro and boat people and Havana ghettos and prisons. It is certainly not well-known that Cuba sports a growing number of genuinely upscale hotels and resorts. Americans seem to be under the impression that Cuba is off limits to *everybody*, that nobody is allowed to travel there under any circumstances, but that's just not true at all. 100 Euros gets a nice hotel room with a private beach, something you can't find in Jamaica or St. John... I realize there are a lot of sleazy hotels too, with non-potable water, etc. A friend of mine just came back from a bicycle tour in Cuba with some reports of really nasty experiences. (And no, he did not go to Cuba with the blessings of the Treasury Department.)

Anyway, there is a perception that Cuba has been deprived of everything that's ever been made since the 1950s just because the USA doesn't trade there.

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

"Boo" from Canada.

Dang it! Nobody *ever* feels threatened by Canada :(

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

Dang it! Nobody *ever* feels threatened by Canada :(

In the age of nuclear weapons, if you don't have them, then any weapon you will have will look like you are holding a water gun up against a tank. Until Canada gets some nukes, their Maple Fist of Doom will not be able to crush the Earth.

Re:A bit misleading

[NMerriam]

The Soviet Union was a real enemy and their nuclear missiles were real weapons.

Well, of course. Nobody is arguing about what we should have done 40 years ago (at least in this thread). But Cuba presents no threat to us in any way now, and is only an "enemy" in the most meaningless philosophical use of the word. Our embargo today in 2007 serves no real purpose -- we have no reason to believe it will change their government, while we do have reason to believe the elimination will benefit both our societies and eventually encourage them to draw closer to us socially, politically and economically.

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

If we had easy tourism and trading with Cuba, it would take about 10 years for it to be one of the most pro-American places on Earth no matter what the government says about us.

Like Haiti?

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

Money and prosperity have a strange way of bringing people closer.
*sigh*
If only our Gracious Leaders thought the same way.
(must remember to disable this damn idealism chip)

Re:A bit misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

Weren't the missiles brought in to defend Cuba from ANOTHER U.S. invasion after the Bay of Pigs?

Re:A bit misleading

[schweinhund]

It is not pointless. We should not be supporting a system which traps and enslaves people, with no hope of ever improving their lives other than what the holy State will provide (or allow) for them, let alone openly torture, murder and imprison its political opponents.

Think about how life would be in any 'free' nation if the kind of restrictions that exist for Cubans were to be enacted in your country? Communism is not a panacea or a paradise - it is a pit.

The US isn't perfect, but Castro's policies towards the Cuban people are much, much worse.

BTW, Cuba is 90 miles from Florida, hardly "a thousand".

Re:A bit misleading

[NMerriam]

That's great, but by cutting ourselves off from them we aren't doing anything to harm the government, all we're doing is preventing the people of Cuba from interacting with Americans, growing closer to us, understanding us, and becoming economically dependent on us. We give the government a convenient scapegoat for all the ills of their own making -- whenever people are upset, they can just blame it on the embargo. We would be their largest trading partner and income source overnight if we opened up, but they would never be more than a drop in the bucket to us.

All that would happen is that Cuba would find it increasingly more profitable to discard the vestiges of communism and totalitarianism and embrace Capitalism and republican democracy. Look how hard China has to work to try and take advantage of the modern world without opening the floodgates, and then realize that they're the only country on Earth that would even have a shred of a chance of standing up to a foreign economic and cultural tidal wave.

I never said Cuba was a thousand miles away.

This is News How?

[eldavojohn]

While this may not seem like a big deal, the implications are interesting. It's not a big deal. Everything made in America falls under these laws. Whether it be the corn we grow or the software written (in any part) or served within the United States. Even Windows (bullet 7) falls under these restrictions.

Yet, not too surprisingly, Windows has found its way into Cuba and I'm certain the OLPC will also be found there in mass quantities if it is indeed useful/popular. Physical devices may be harder to find there than software but you'll find them there.

This isn't news. The U.S. trade embargos have been in place on Cuba, Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Sudan and Syria for a while now. Furthermore, if the laptops are made and assembled outside the U.S.

So let's get creative here, you make and manufacture the hardware outside the United States. Then you ship them to restricted countries (I think the parts are going to come from China anyway). You leave it up to people inside Cuba or where ever to install the OLPC image. Who has violated the TOS? The citizens of the country who really don't give a damn what U.S. export laws they're breaking.

And if these laws are broken, who's going to enforce them? Redhat/Fedora? The U.S. government is going to show up and stop laptops from going to children? The U.S. government is going to shutdown a free open source software hosting site? I highly doubt it.

Re:This is News How?

[trolltalk.com]

There's no reason someone can't also distribute the software in another country (like Cuba, Syria, Canuckistan (Canada), Germany, France, wherever ...) The "license" you agree to is not an exclusive license.

Contributor Grant of License. You hereby grant to Red Hat, Inc., on behalf of the Project, and to recipients of software distributed by the Project:

* (a) a perpetual, non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, royalty free, irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute your Contribution and such derivative works; and,

* (b) a perpetual, non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, royalty free, irrevocable (subject to Section 3) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer your Contribution and derivative works thereof, where such license applies only to those patent claims licensable by you that are necessarily infringed by your Contribution alone or by combination of your Contribution with the work to which you submitted the Contribution. Except for the license granted in this section, you reserve all right, title and interest in and to your Contributions.

The internet has been known to route around damage, you know ...

Re:This is News How?

[rborek]

Yet, not too surprisingly, Windows has found its way into Cuba

Most likely from Canada, which prohibits complying with the US Cuba export restrictions laws. Complying with US law with regards to Cuba can land you in jail for up to 5 years.

Re:This is News How?

[nelsonal]

So does that mean when I'm in Canada, I must try the Cuban cigars? Very strange law (not that our embargo is any less strange), are all exporters required to trade with Cuba? Seems difficult to enforce.

Re:This is News How?

[perlchild]

I read the parent as "you cannot help the U.S. embargo Cuba" if you are Canadian. It wouldn't be constitutional in Canada to force you to smoke...

Re:This is News How?

[mqduck]

So does that mean when I'm in Canada, I must try the Cuban cigars

From what I've heard (from the movie Sicko, I think - yay BitTorrent!), in parts of Canada frequented by USian visitors, you can see lots of shops loudly advertising that they cell Cuban cigars.

Re:This is News How?

[nelsonal]

I know they are there (I grew up near the border and have been up to Canada many times). I was unaware that by complying with the US embargo (which applies to citizens even when outside the country) I was simultaniously breaking Canadian law. I guesss I better argue that I didn't care for a cigar that day and hope for the best.

Re:This is News How?

[Kohath]

Is being in jail in Canada different than being out of jail in Canada? Is it worse? Are the waiting lists for medical care similar?

Re:This is News How?

[shadowspar]

Complying with US law with regards to Cuba can land you in jail for up to 5 years.

What act says that? I looked but couldn't find any.

Re:This is News How?

[shadowspar]

Never mind, found it: the F-29, the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act.

For what it is worth, most of the provisions of the Act require a specific order from the Attorney General. I found it interesting that the Helms-Burton Act is specifically mentioned, though:

Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity (LIBERTAD) Act of 1996
7.1 Any judgment given under the law of the United States entitled Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity (LIBERTAD) Act of 1996 shall not be recognized or enforceable in any manner in Canada.

Re:This is News How?

[maynard]

Yeah. I don't think Cuba has even signed on to WIPO. So it's not like they are under any obligation to follow US copyright laws or intellectual property standards. They're gonna do whatever the hell they want, regardless if we're talking Microsoft's Windows or any random GPL'd program. But I'm sure the BSD license still gives Castro a warm and fuzzy.

Ohhhhhhhhh.....

Re:This is News How?

[epe]

take a look here

Re:This is News How?

[maynard]

What. Are you suggesting I should have fact checked my assertion before posting to /.? Why if everyone did that, there'd be no entertaining posts to read! Heh.

BTW: thanks. :)

Re:This is News How?

[Minwee]

Unless you are a director or officer of a Canadian corporation then it's not likely that you have violated the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act (United States) Order.

The act was passed as a reminder that the Canadian government likes to think that they have some kind of exclusive right to pass laws that affect Canadians living inside Canada, although the USA seems to disagree.

Re:This is News How?

[Karem Lore]

Exactly, I can still buy a coca cola or a pepsi in Cuba...In fact, I can pretty much buy anything I want in Cuba as when I go I have the money to do so. These machines will most likely be exported from Spain who, it would seem, also don't care what the US thinks...thankfully.

Re:This is News How?

[rahvin112]

That's hardly an example of what you insinuate. The guy was Canadian, living in the US, working for a US company, working to avoid US export law by transporting product through Canada to avoid the US embargo. Except for the counts that apply to the years he was in Canada, he broke US law while in the US, and those prior counts might apply if he applied for and received US citizenship while living here. In fact I'll leave that up to his lawyers to argue. Anyway, regardless of the 7 counts from time in Canada there were 13 other counts from actions while in the US. In addition the prosecutor is only asking for 5 years when the maximum sentence is 200 years.

So contrary to your point, the US isn't trying to enforce US law on Canadians living in Canada, but they will enforce it on Canadians living and working in the US in a job that was specifically created to avoid compliance with US export rules. Just because he's Canadian (and living in the US) US laws don't apply? It's actually funny to read his statement saying as a Canadian he's obligated to deliberatly ignore the embargo, might be true in Canada but if he's living and working on the other side of the border he's meat for Customs to chew up and spit into jail. Not only that but they are being EXTREMELY lenient on him. He could've served the rest of his life in a maximum security federal prison.

Re:This is News How?

[Brian Stretch]

The internet has been known to route around damage, you know ...

Castro is the damage. Routing around his enforcers is nontrivial.

The large numbers of Cubans who leave Cuba in rickety boats over shark-infested water suggests to me that maybe, just maybe, Castro's Cuba isn't such a fun place if you're not a Eurotrash tourist or a useful idiot.

One of the many blogs about Cuban political prisoners:
coalitionofcubanamericanwomen.blogspot.com

Re:This is News How?

[KayakFun]

> Windows has found its way into Cuba Yeah, Windows latest version even has a 'cuban' name: Vista

Re:This is News How?

[trolltalk.com]

Maybe fewer Cubans would be "leaving in rickety boats" if the embargo wasn't in place, making for all sorts of economic hardship?

Don't forget - Castro was being supplied by the US during the fight to overthrow the Batista regime (not the first, nor the last, time that the US has turned on a former ally once he's done what they want).

Of course, Cuba doesn't supply WalMart with tons of consumer goods like China does.

The embargo has failed; it is counter-productive, and stupid. Admit it, get over it, remove it, and move on - the rest of the world has. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo _against_Cuba

Every year since 1991, the United Nations General Assembly has passed a non-binding resolution condemning the embargo. The most recent condemnation took place on November 8, 2006, by a vote of 183-4, with the U.S., Israel, Palau, and the Marshall Islands voting against.[2] There is a movement in the United States Congress to lift these restrictions based on the argument they have not accomplished their stated goal of bringing democracy to Cuba, and may in fact have contributed to strengthening the Cuban government.

Although Cuba was a net food exporter prior to the revolution, food has been rationed in Cuba since 1962.[3] Because of the chronic food shortages that plague the island, Cuba has become a net food importer. As a consequence, exports of food and related materials from the U.S to Cuba were valued at $344 million in 2006.

So there you have it - the blockade is good for US trade, since it makes it harder for Cuba to be self-sufficient in food. Nice tactics, trying to "starve them out."

Re:This is News How?

[Brian Stretch]

Umm, how does the embargo stop Cuba from growing its own food? Plants being self-replicating and all. Might Castro's repressive government have a wee bit to do with it? Plus pretty much everyone else ignores the embargo.

I do think that the embargo should be scrapped. Having thousands and thousands of Americans flood Cuba could be very entertaining. Some people have suggested that Castro deliberately does something to piss us off every time Congress starts to seriously think about lifting the embargo for just that reason.

As for the UN, that collection of third-world dictatorships and European has-beens will nearly always vote against America and Israel. I don't know why we bother with that cesspool.

When did the US government supply Castro? All Wikipedia mentions is support from the usual useful idiots like the NYT plus assorted Cuban exiles.

Re:This is News How?

[trolltalk.com]

Umm, how does the embargo stop Cuba from growing its own food? Plants being self-replicating and all. Might Castro's repressive government have a wee bit to do with it? Plus pretty much everyone else ignores the embargo.

The inability to import tractor and truck parts - maintenance is a big problem. Florida is just a couple of hous away - importing from Canada or Europe takes a lot longer and costs more because of the distances involved.

Re:This is News How?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well the article states: "The fact that Mr Sabzali was convicted on seven charges relating to his years in Canada may strengthen the feeling in Canada that the United States has overstepped the mark." So it's explicitly focussing on these seven charges, they are not disputing the right of the US to apply their law within their own borders.

Re:This is News How?

[Minwee]

He is a Canadian national who was living in Canada and running his own Canadian business within Canada, and was charged and convicted by a US court for doing so.

No matter how much boldface you use, he committed his so-called "crimes" while living and working outside of the jurisdiction of US law and the fact that he continued to do it after moving to the US doesn't change that. If he broke a US law while working in the USA, then that's fine. However he was still charged under US law for things that he did outside of the USA. From a legal standpoint it makes about as much sense as having his US driver's license suspended because he drove on the wrong side of the road while visiting London.

Re:This is News How?

[rahvin112]

He is a Canadian national who was living in Canada and running his own Canadian business within Canada, and was charged and convicted by a US court for doing so.

He was living in Canada up until he moved to the US working for the company for which he did almost all his business previously which was engaged in the diversion of US products to Cuba through Canada. Because there is no further detail on the 7 charges that related to his time in Canada, and his lawyers had ample time to protest charges that he couldn't legally be charged with unless their were extenuating circumstances I have to assume there was evidence he conspired to break US law just like the say Columbian Cartel members did that are now in US jails. There is also the issue in understanding that when you are operating an international business you can in fact violate laws outside your own country where something that is illegal is not illegal in your country.

For example, it may not be illegal in to be involved in the creation and export via carriers of Heroin into Canada, but I guarantee that if such a person comes to Canada (and even not transporting themselves) they will still be prosecuted under Canadian law even though what they did may not have been illegal in their country. I would also suspect that this has already happened numerous times, yet where is your anger that Canada engages in prosecution of people who were engaged in commerce that wasn't illegal in their own country? Maybe it has something to do with facilitating the breaking of Canadian law. After all, someone who is deliberately trying to smuggle Heroin into Canada is breaking Canadian law even if they aren't the person doing the smuggling and they have never been to Canada, just as owning a business who's sole purpose is to divert US product to Cuba in violation of the US embargo is asking for criminal charges if they ever enter the US. There's a simple rule, if you are breaking a foreign countries laws, you better not go there. If I had been operating a smuggling operation into Canada, for which the Canadians were aware of my actions, I wouldn't be visiting anytime soon. Or if I was engaged in the shipment of Nazi products to Germany (not a bit illegal in the US) I probably wouldn't travel to Germany because I would likely be arrested and prosecuted under Germany's laws about the production and distribution to Germans of the material. (real life case from just a little while ago). I have no doubt the guy would have never been charged for activities in Canada had he not been buying the product from the US, had his purchases been anywhere other than the US they would have had no basis to charge him, but diverting US products to Cuba he was violating US laws, regardless of where he lives. You want to sell product to Cuba? Don't buy it from the US, cause if you do you better not ever enter the US again.

This is a really stupid question but...

[technoextreme]

wouldn't the laptops themselves fall under United States export laws?

Re:This is a really stupid question but...

[RingDev]

How many laptop manufacturing plants are there in the US?

-Rick

Re:This is a really stupid question but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realise that one can purchase computer hardware and software outside the US right? There is nothing stopping another country from reselling these products to Cuba.

Re:This is a really stupid question but...

[MysteriousPreacher]

Nothing to stop them except legal action and the possibility of losing the US as a market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act

If I had to chose between trading with Cuba or the US, I'd need a very good reason to chose the former.

Ever?

[Speare]

So, no OLPC for Cuba, Syria and the like. Ever.

Yeah, like US Law has never ever changed. Remember trade embargoes during apartheid? Castro's ill, it's not clear who will be taking over. New high-level talks have opened with Syria recently also. Not saying that either of these things are likely to change next month, but "never" is pretty long.

No Habeus Corpus For BushCo, Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is the world's largest crime syndicate refusing to
comply with the Congress?

Hopefully, they will spend their last days in the Fuhrerbunker.

Pax,
Kilgore Trout, ACTIVIST

Who cares about Redhat?

[blueroses]

Just put Centos on them...

This is another triumph of politics...

[Brainix]

...over goodwill.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[Kohath]

What's the reward for goodwill towards murderous enemies again? Does it make European elites send you a birthday card or something? Can we drink organic cocktails at the enlightenment club while turning a blind eye toward the suffering that results? Do we get a 2% discount on a Prius?

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[Brainix]

What's the reward for goodwill towards murderous enemies again? Does it make European elites send you a birthday card or something? Can we drink organic cocktails at the enlightenment club while turning a blind eye toward the suffering that results? Do we get a 2% discount on a Prius?

I don't harbor goodwill toward my "murderous enemies." I harbor goodwill toward their children.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[Kohath]

I think their children could use freedom and legitimate hope for a better future rather than a cheap laptop.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[MadUndergrad]

Showing goodwill toward your enemies is a good way to make them less murderous.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[NMerriam]

What's the reward for goodwill towards murderous enemies again?

That the people under their control see we're more successful and prosperous than they are, and begin to wonder why that is and envy our way of life despite whatever propaganda their leadership broadcasts. It worked in the Soviet Union, all of Eastern Europe, and Southeast Asia.

Bombing the world with Hollywood, Levi's, Coca-Cola and Britney Spears has been far more effective at changing enemies into allies than any military operation we've engaged in since WWII. The only real question is why so many Americans and politicians profess the superiority of Democracy and Capitalism, yet don't actually trust them to outperform Totalitarian Communism over the long term.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[GuldKalle]

Well, having an informed population might help on the freedom part, and education makes for a better future. Cheap laptops can inform and educate.

Freedom and hopes for a better future are hard to package in cardboard boxes, laptops are not.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[Kohath]

Well, having an informed population might help on the freedom part, and education makes for a better future.

I wish the US could have an informed population and a good educational system so we could have a better future.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[KDR_11k]

Do you think a trade embargo is going to hurt a dictator? He'll just cuddle up with all the goods they get and tell the populace they aren't getting anything because the Evil Imperialists are embargoing them and the only way to stop that is to support El Presidente in his fight against the Evil Imperialists.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[Zibblsnrt]

What's the reward for goodwill towards murderous enemies again?

Most-favored-nation status.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[aztektum]

Murderous enemy? When's the last time the Cuban government killed thousands of civilians in a war started under false pretenses? Or kidnapped and sent persons of interest in a bullshit "War on Terror" to other countries in order to torture them?

So you were talking about Cuba or the US?

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[Qrlx]

The export of Western Culture at the cost of native culture is also a great cause for resentment. What was Osama bin Laden's complaint again? Too many infidels in the Holy Land! (Note that his complaint extended to the House of Saud too, not just the Americans.)

As for trusting Democracy and Capitalism, let's start with democracy. Quite simply, you can't depend on Democracy. Dictators-for-life and other despotic governments don't suddenly up and reverse their foreign policy every 4 or 8 years just because the fickle electorate changes their mind. Why do you think the United States subverts Democracy and supports despotism every chance they get? (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia, just to name a few of our allies in the War on Terror.)

Beyond that, Democracy doesn't have the same track record as totalitarianism. Where was Democracy between the fall of Athens and the American revolution? (You remember the American Revolution, that Geat Leap Forward for democracy, unless you happened to be a slave, or a woman, or didn't own land?)

I see Democracy and Capitalism paired quite often, but the concepts are orthogonal. Democracy and Education are the true bedfellows. I mean, from a market point of view, China has been a great investment for the past decade or so, but you certainly wouldn't call China a democracy.

Re:This is another triumph of politics...

[MysteriousPreacher]

As long as they're not motivated by a violent religion or ideology. If they are then they'll take that goodwill and continue with business as usual.

That's a little bit pessamistic

[also-rr]

One day the US will normalise relations with Cuba. The process might not happen until after the current generation of ex-Cubans in Forida is dead, but that's hardly _never_.

In the mean time they could just funnel shipments through a neutral third party. Creative accountants can manage to hide billions from the IRS, why shouldn't they be able to do something socially useful like vanish a couple of shipping containers of laptops.

Re:That's a little bit pessamistic

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I expect Cuba to be a US Territory before 2010, and be granted statehood by 2015.

Mexican states will voluntarily start becoming part of the US by 2015, starting from the north and working down to Panama.

Canada will begin "blending" with the US at the same time, with the exception of Quebec, who will be the last non-US holdout on the North American continent.

In short, with the Quebec exception, the entire North American continent will be united under one federal government by 2030.

Quebec will likely join the EU.

Re:That's a little bit pessamistic

[TooMuchToDo]

Line item: "Cargo containers damaged in transit: 6"

Done and done.

Re:That's a little bit pessamistic

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you believe this will happen?

The list can change

[Kohath]

When the regimes that control those countries stop sponsoring terrorism, then I'm sure they'll be taken off the export list.

Re:The list can change

[Anonymous Coward]

In that case, I am afraid USA will be on that list for the foreseeable future

Re:The list can change

[fredrated]

The US sponsers a hell of a lot more terrorism than Cuba. For example, what exactly did you think 'shock and awe' was supposed to be? George Bush has now killed far more innocent people that Castro could if he lived to be 200.

Re:The list can change

[clashdot]

One statement is true. Which one?
1) Cuba sponsors terrorism directed at the US.
2) The US sponsors terrorism directed at Cuba.

Re:The list can change

[Kohath]

I'm not sure what the point of this is supposed to be.

You hate the US. Congrats. I'm sure the people in your social circle will acknowledge you and understand that you agree with them. You'll all have mutual camaraderie toward each other and mutual contempt for the "unenlightened".

But beyond groupthink and contempt, what do you have to offer?

I wonder why Cuba and Syria never seem to make some marvelous new technological advances that the US can envy from afar?

Re:The list can change

[Anonymous Coward]

The IRA was almost totally funded by Americans. So STFU about funding terrrorism.

Re:The list can change

[Suzuran]

Because the US terrorists keeps it from happening! Duh.
It's all our fault anymore, where have you been?

Re:The list can change

[Kohath]

AC says:

The IRA was almost totally funded by Americans. So STFU about funding terrrorism.

Really? So because of someone in the US did something wrong a long time ago, we're never allowed to get it right? We can't even talk about doing the right thing?

Maybe we should just take this as an unlimited license to do the "wrong" thing then. And the anti-US complainers can STFU about it forever.

Re:The list can change

[KarmaMB84]

Your typical US citizen couldn't give a damn about Ireland and the IRA. The IRA was funded by a subset mostly made up of *Irish* Americans.

Re:The list can change

[NMerriam]

I wonder why Cuba and Syria never seem to make some marvelous new technological advances that the US can envy from afar?

Cuba is one of the world leaders in biotech research.

Re:The list can change

[Anonymous Coward]

A long time ago? Yeah, the ninties were so fucking long ago I can barely remember if I was even born then.

When we clean up our act on the world stage then I'll stop complaining.

Re:The list can change

[cdrguru]

Cuba is not a terrorist state, never really has been. However the government pretty much reserves the right to nationalize anything at any time they choose. This is what they did in 1959 and what they continue to claim they can and will do today.

If someone was greedy and stupid enough you might think you could set up some kind of labor-intensive manufacturing operation in Cuba and export the finished products to the US through Mexico. Lots of people in Cuba out of work and willing to work for next to nothing, right? So much lower labor costs than we have in the US. Sounds like a really good plan.

Except for this little "nationalization" threat and what happened in 1959. Say 10 investors get together and build a factory in Cuba which is marvelously successful. Until the Cuban government decides they want a piece of the pie... well a very large piece... actually, just the whole pie. So the Cuban government kicks the owners and managers out of the country and takes the factory over. Just like 1959.

In the past this was an act of aggression that was essentially a declaration of war. Wars have been started in the past for similar reasons. The War of 1812 wasn't all that dissimilar. I believe there have been several South American countries that have had disagreements (with shooting) over this very subject.

The US has pretty much said over and over since 1959 that they aren't going to go to war over Cuba. When above-mentioned investors come back to their Senator demanding the US "do something" it is entirely possible that "something" would indeed be done. Well, let's just nip that in the bud and say building factories in Cuba isn't allowed. And, partly for past "nationalization" trade with Cuba is heavily restricted.

Today, the trade restrictions are wearing a bit thin. But, conversely the US exports food and little else these days. Everything comes from China and China is under no such trade restrictions. So really, what difference would it make to remove the trade restrictions? Except maybe to allow Wal-Mart to build stores in Cuba. Can you imagine, they would want to bring in their own cleaning staff but the locals would be able to understand them.

I think Cuba is overall better off without trade with the US, at least until the US has something that Cuba needs.

Re:The list can change

[Kohath]

Cuba is one of the world leaders in biotech research.

Why should anyone believe that?

It seems 100% ridiculous, and it seems exactly like one of the Cuban-regime-defenders say.

What did the Cubans biotech scientists invent? Research is not an invention. Iran is doing nuclear research, and if they keep it up, they'll be caught up to where the US was in 1944. Do the Cubans super-scientists have a vaccination for cancer we should know about?

Re:The list can change

[NMerriam]

Why should anyone believe that?

Because I worked in medical research for a decade and Cuban biotech is famous internationally? It's not like this stuff is some big secret or groundless claim by the government, the researchers present at medical conferences around the world (just not in the US), and host important biotech conferences in Cuba (which of course our own researchers can't go to and learn at, which benefits us in no way whatsoever). They do clinical trials in Canada and Europe and Latin America, the same as American companies do when they want to introduce drugs to new regions.

The most famous development was a dirt-cheap Meningitis B vaccine, but since then they've developed inexpensive vaccines and treatments for Pneumonia, Influenza, and even some cancers. Fortunately American companies have convinced the government that we need access to some of these drugs, so a few decades after their development we're able to save some lives that otherwise would have been lost due to our embargo.

I hate to break it to you that you're the one who clearly has a knee-jerk propaganda reflex that assumes any government we dislike must therefore rule over a backwater country filled with cave-dwellers dressed in loincloths and banging two sticks together to make fire.

Re:The list can change

[Kohath]

If it's true, I'm glad to know it. There's just a lot of this "did you know that no one ever dies of a preventable disease in our socialist paradise" type talk. I hear Castro is going to live to be 200, for example. So I'm skeptical.

A link to credible information would be informative -- more informative than "trust me, I'm someone on the Internet who claims to know". I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at this point, but the doubt still remains.

Re:The list can change

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me again - what makes you worth the air you breathe?

Re:The list can change

[NMerriam]

A link to credible information would be informative

You don't have to take anyone's word for it, just google "Cuba Biotech", Cuba Hepatitis B, etc. Heck, call up GlaxoSmithkline and ask them.

Re:The list can change

[Darby]

If it's true, I'm glad to know it. There's just a lot of this "did you know that no one ever dies of a preventable disease in our socialist paradise" type talk. I hear Castro is going to live to be 200, for example. So I'm skeptical.

Given the extremely high level of education in Cuba and the large number of doctors, it's a perfectly reasonable idea.
The "a lot of this $IGNORANT_BULLSHIT" is only coming from you and you're only demonstrating your pig ignorance of simple basic facts which contradict your extremist nutjob world view.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at this point, but the doubt still remains.

Here's a hot tip. Since you're so obviously an ignorant fool about the entire topic, why don't you go away and do some research so you don't sound like such a fucking moronic partisan hack in the future?

There are bad things about Cuba, but when you come in and prove yourself to not know a single damned thing about the place, you tend to make people dismiss anything you say as the ignorant ravings of a fool.

So how about you try taking a skeptical view on the issue for once instead of spouting delusional nonsense which only proves your own ignorance and go out and inform yourself?

Re:The list can change

[dharbee]

You know, you could have saved yourself the trouble of behaving like a jackass and simply given him some links.

But taking the low road like you did can work too...

Re:The list can change

[Kohath]

why don't you go away and do some research

Not a high enough interest level in the subject.

Re:The list can change

[Kohath]

Also

Given the extremely high level of education in Cuba and the large number of doctors, it's a perfectly reasonable idea.

I've heard there's a high education level in Cuba. (So what do they need cheap laptops for? They seem to be able to educate people without them, according to you.) I've heard they have doctors there. I've also heard Castro is going to live to be 200 years old. I've heard the people in Cuba go hungry. I've heard lots of different things.

A country where the people routinely don't have enough food seems like a place that might not be on the leading edge of biotech. But, hey maybe they are. (Seems like poor resource planning to me, and they could do with more farmers and fewer doctors if that's true.) North Korea has a nuclear problem while the NK people starve, so who knows.

Any and all "information" about Cuba is more-or-less suspect and subject to the need for verification. Communist dictatorships without a free press are seldom reliably honest.

Re:The list can change

[Kohath]

AC says:

yeah, the ninties were so fucking long ago

Long time, short time, medium time. What's the point supposed to be?

Oh yeah: "The US is bad and we don't like it. All of us enlightened folks agree. Congrats to us." I don't know why you guys don't just say that.

"We don't care about Cuba's or Syria's victims. Because there's no congrats to us for not liking Syria. You can't social-climb that way at all."

Re:The list can change

[Darby]

You know, you could have saved yourself the trouble of behaving like a jackass and simply given him some links.

But taking the low road like you did can work too...

You could call it the "low road", but if you're always taking the "high road", you'll never end the day with any of the fish you've caught left over to feed yourself.

The depth of his ignorance will never be solved with a few links when he's already decided to believe, without question, extremist anti Cuba propaganda (as opposed to non extremist, informed criticisms of which there are plenty) and blatantly deny the possibility of anything different than the idiocy he's programmed himself to respond with regardless of how easy it is to look up the particular facts he has dead fucking wrong this time.

But yeah, I could have just thrown the idiotic moron a fish and called myself a good person for doing so.

Re:The list can change

[Darby]

I've heard there's a high education level in Cuba. (So what do they need cheap laptops for? They seem to be able to educate people without them, according to you.) I've heard they have doctors there. I've also heard Castro is going to live to be 200 years old. I've heard the people in Cuba go hungry. I've heard lots of different things.

And not taken a second to figure out which are true which are false and which are batshit insane. You seem to think that ignorance and skepticism are the same thing. They're not.

Any and all "information" about Cuba is more-or-less suspect and subject to the need for verification. Communist dictatorships without a free press are seldom reliably honest.

Well, you can leave out "Cuba" and "Communist dictatorships without a free press" and the statement will still be true.
Had you any interest in actually knowing what you're talking about, though, you'd know that those simple matters of public record which you deny while admitting you have no way to even know weren't pulled out of one of Castro's addresses.

If as you said in the other response you just don't have a high enough interest to learn *anything* about the subject, then you might consider the saying , It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

You have successfully removed all doubt.
Congratulations.

Re:The list can change

[WilliamSChips]

Yeah, Giulani is completely Irish and completely not running for President.

Re:The list can change

[Trogre]

Really? What's GW's total now? Is anyone keeping count of this murderous beast's non-combatant body count?

Re:The list can change

[halplus00]

What are the evidences of sponsoring terrorism? Or... are you repeating like an idiot the first thing you hear instead of using your head?

That'd teach those kids...

[Anonymous Coward]

That'd teach those kids for living in the wrong countries.

Not news

[Anonymous Coward]

Pssh... This isn't new. OLPC has always run a modified version of Fedora, so the export restrictions would always apply to it, if they didn't already apply for other reasons (like... hardware exports?).

This is purely an organizational note for people who want their software contributions considered for official distribution on the laptops. The laptops themselves will run whatever software the user wants, whether the author signed a Fedora repository agreement or not.

Not all submissions, just Etoys

[rabryan21]

According to the linked sugar list message, this restriction only apply to submissions to the Etoys project (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Etoys). This doesn't imply (as the summary states) that all submissions to the OLPC project must be hosted on Fedora.

Re:Not all submissions, just Etoys

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed... This is stupid. If the submitter actually read the article, he'd see that only projects distributed as .rpms have to be hosted at Fedora. And if he was familiar with the OLPC project, he'd know that almost all the OLPC software is *not* in .rpms -- it's in various source code repositories (git, svn, etc.). EToys is unique because it's distributed as a large Squeak (SmallTalk) image, so it has to be distributed in binary form.

When Castro dies.....

[Anonymous Coward]

- Castro dies
- Mutual Defense Pact is unveiled between Venezuela and Cuba, and Castro's successor asks Venezuela for "help."
- Venezuela military moves in under the guise of "protecting" Cuba from invasion from other countries.
- Cuba becomes a satellite province of Venezuela.

Unless the US and other countries have the balls to throw up a naval force and cordon off Cuba so the people of Cuba can handle it for themselves.

Re:When Castro dies.....

[Max Littlemore]

Unless the US and other countries have the balls to throw up a naval force and cordon off Cuba so the people of Cuba can handle it for themselves.

Woah! Slow down there. I would see the US taking action like this as being as bad, if not worse than Venezuela stepping in.

Why do people keep buying the fucked up "US spreads freedom" propaganda? The only freedom that the US spreads is freedom to do what the US says or freedom to die. Sorry, but your post is in the realm of dangerous crackpottery.

Syria, fine. Cuba? Come on

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it about time the US government got over their obsession with Cuba? The cold war is over, and the West won. Is there really any need to keep up this ridiculous charade of continued sanctions against Cuba? It's not like they're huge hypocrites about it anyway: how many politicians have smoked a Cuban cigar? How many US citizens now benefit from Cuban developed vaccines?

The US does business with far worse regimes on a daily basis. Time to live and let live.

yay

[Vexorian]

OLPC worse and worse everyday

Don't worry about Cuba, I am seeing a bunch of "Bolivarian computers" in their future...

Re:yay

[Anonymous Coward]

Just how far into the future? When will Bolivaria become a country?

Re:yay

[bobcat7677]

Yes, The OLPC program is obsolete. But why would they buy "Bolivarian" computers other then to support Hugo Chavez anyway? The Bolivarian computers are way expensive...I'm sure beyond what Cuba could afford. More likely they will get the cheap laptops from India. India can make them better for less money (currently $47) anyway http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/ 04/048259.

Re:yay

[Vexorian]

I didn't mean Bolivarian computers were any good or better, but Cuba is certainly going to go there, and yes, to support Chavez.

That's pretty good news

[The_Abortionist]

The OLPC doesn't have to only teach children about turning on computers and provide them with internet access to pornography. In this case, it will teach, by its absence, the value of not being communist and/or terrorists.

Anyway, can we trust Cuba with the OLPC? Network 1 million of them and 2 years later they have an atomic bomb simulator.

CUBA

[Anonymous Coward]

GOODING JR.

Is fedora still free as in freedom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are this behavior and legal situation compatible with the no restrictions provisions of the GPL?

Re:Is fedora still free as in freedom?

[fsmunoz]

My take on it is that you can't deny redistribution, but you can chose to not distribute it to whomever you want. I.e. as a US company you can deny selling/download the software yourself by some criteria: in this situation country, but you can also *sell* GPL software, meaning that you will deny giving it to anyone who requests it for free. *However* you can't enforce this choices on third parties *at all*. If I buy a GPL software I can copy it and give copies to my friends, or even put in online for everyone to download. In the same vein, everything that a company doesn't ship to Cuba by its own wishes can end up there in any event since I, living in Europe, can perfectly copy it and put is accessible to anyone else.

Not sure if I'm being clear enough... to sum it up, one can chose to limit the scope of the initial distribution, but can't enforce these limits on third parties. I'm not sure how this works out if someone says "whites only" or "only for woman" though, but I supposed these are covered more by other laws than copyright law.

Re:Is fedora still free as in freedom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks.
We are talking about contributors here: people who already received the code and try to contribute to it.
Is fedora actively preventing people from cuba to get fedora? Is it publicized on their site or licence?
I find this whole info, and situation if it is true, as both surprising and infuriating.
Refusing code based on the nationality of its author amd for a humanitarian project? And free software at that? nonsense!

Re:Good-idiots

[Anonymous Coward]

wow you guys really drank the neocon coolaid. Learn to look through the propoganda, and you might see there is a world OUTSIDE THE US. Fuck off you stupid drones.

Sanctions only exist to subjugate the peoples of these countries,increasing the death rates of the young, and lower the quality of life of the citizens. Sanctions, and withholding of technologies of these "rogue states" (read: any states that have the balls to stand up to US economic and social hegemony), only serves to bolster these regimes(many of which were installed and supported by the CIA/NSA/etc to fight other "threats").

Face it, US foreign policy is one of economic fascism, cultural indoctrination and genocide.

I'm a proud American who is embarassed by the evil imperialists who run our country.

what's an OLPC

[wardk]

For those of us not in the Linux fanboy club, could someone provide an explanation as to what OLPC actually stands for?

Bonus answer would by why anyone would give a rat's behind that Syria can't participate?

I am SURE Syria is just BUSTING at the SEAMS with Open Source developers making huge contributions to the source tree, right? so sad all their hopes and dreams are dashed by US policy.

Maybe Syria and Cuba can sign up and work on Red Flag Linux?

Re:what's an OLPC

[coren2000]

One Laptop Per Child

The US will make sure that children will suffer for their parents disagreements.

Re:what's an OLPC

[Anonymous Coward]

One-Laptop-Per-Child A group effort to provide very low-cost laptops for educational use in developing countries.

Re:what's an OLPC

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of us not in the Linux fanboy club, could someone provide an explanation as to what OLPC actually stands for? OLPC = One Laptop per Child, an attempt to get information technology to parts of the world that would otherwise not have access.

Bonus answer would by why anyone would give a rat's behind that Syria can't participate? Because having access to more information might help the people improve how their government behaves?

In the case of Cuba, I think the fastest way to eliminate the current regime is to remove all restrictions on trade and travel.

Re:what's an OLPC

[wardk]

so Syria cannot code for the worlds children.

perhaps they will someday join the civilized world and they can begin coding.

Re:what's an OLPC

[808140]

You're being extremely short-sighted. Have you ever been to Syria? It's one of the most warm-hearted and hospitable countries on earth. The government is corrupt and oppressive, no doubt, but the people are the ones getting shafted here -- embargoes on places like Cuba and Syria have demonstratively done nothing to weaken the hold of tyrannical governments. If anything, they've done the opposite. How? Because, see, it gives those governments a scapegoat. North Koreans believe that everything shitty about the DPRK is all the fault of the US and Japan, and with trade sanctions as they are, the government of the DPRK (and of Syria, and of Cuba) actually can claim that that is the case and use it to cover up the corrupt nature of their own governments.

Newsflash: embargoes don't prevent fancy American luxury items from getting into the nation, they just limit the use of those goods to the very wealthy, ie, the government cronies. So the people who get shafted are, as usual, the poor, who are already oppressed by their own governments.

How long have we had an embargo on Cuba now? Syria? North Korea? Do any of these countries show even the slightest sign of caving in? No. Their people starve, the local governments blame us for it and use the embargo as proof, all while continuing to live like kings.

People here who keep saying "Castro will be dead soon" are ignoring something fundamental about Cuba, too -- it is not, despite what you may have heard, a dictatorship. It is a one party state, and there's a huge difference. A dictatorship's government centers around a dictator, and when that dictator dies, the government acts like a body without a head. In a one-party state (ie, China, the old Soviet Union, Syria, Singapore, etc) there is typically a party whose head (chairman, president, whatever) leads the state with input from the party. The Cuban Communist Party is not beholden to Fidel, and is quite capable of running the country without him, as has been demonstrated recently. Rather like the PRC didn't collapse when Mao died, the USSR didn't collapse when Lenin or Stalin kicked the bucket, and Syria is still a thorn in the US's side even after Hafez al-Assad's death in 2000.

I didn't mention North Korea because I'm not sure how much power the Korean Worker's Party actually has -- there's a fair amount of evidence that their existence is ornamental and that real power rests in the military and that Kim Jong Il is in firm control of it. Also, Kim Il Sung, who was appointed by Stalin to lead North Korea after the Korean war, was Kim Jong Il's father, and he groomed his son for power the way a prince would be in a monarchy, which is not how one-party states generally function. (It's worth noting that Kim Il Sung was, especially in his later years, far less crazy than his son is, and was actually talking to the South Korean government when he died in 1994).

Middle men?

[Sparr0]

Why can't "we" export the software to [insert country here], and the reseller there can do whatever they want with it, including sending it to Cuba?

Re:Middle men?

[Scrameustache]

Why can't "we" export the software to [insert country here], and the reseller there can do whatever they want with it, including sending it to Cuba? Because of Clinton.
He passed a law in his first term, made that illegal.

Re:Middle men?

[cdrguru]

In order to ship stuff to a foreign reseller from the US the reseller needs to understand they are dealing with US goods that are being shipped to them not for export. Should they re-export it and the US exporter finds out, you pretty much need to cut off relations with that reseller.

Failure to do so I am certain leaves you open to prosecution because you are ignoring US export laws.

Mod parent up.

[ettlz]

This is an interesting question, and I too would like to know the answer. I wonder what RMS thinks of this.

Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

They really did piss Kennedy off didn't they...

My prediction

[DataBroker]

with Fidel teetering on death's edge, who knows what the future will bring

After looking at the Venezuela-Cuba-US love triangle, here's my guess:

• Fidel Castro will die.
• Raul Castro (the brother) will step into "the throne".
• Hugo Chavez will "help out with the transition".
• Raul (the puppet) will assist in badmouthing democracy (the US).
• President Hillary Clinton will declare them all terrorists.
• Hillary will *cough* maintain the ban on cigars imports.
• Hugo will torment the US with oil.
• Hillary will declare Cuba and Venezula commie-terrorists.
• Hillary sends nukes to Venezuela.
• Hillary sends troops to Cuba.
• Cuba becomes a military base (subcontracted to Exxon).
• New "military" robots begin working the irradiated Venezuelan oil mines.
• Despite the new sources, petrol and Cuban cigar prices increase.

Re:My prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

President Hillary Clinton

Why do you hate America?

It violates the GPL

[Anonymous Coward]

GPL'd code can't be encumbered by restrictions. So, if OLPC distributes Linux code they can't do it in a manner that will be encumbered by extra restrictions.

OLPC has a problem.

Re:It violates the GPL

[FuzzyDaddy]

By this reasoning, I could build a nuclear weapon with GPL'd code in it and send it to Syria.

Re:It violates the GPL

[fsmunoz]

See my comment above... I think that for the GPL to work you must actually have *received* the software in the first place. If you don't, the GPL doesn't apply. Once you do though, they can't force you to any restriction regarding redistribution.

Re:It violates the GPL

[KarmaMB84]

Abiding by export restrictions is typically not a GPL violation. The day someone makes it a violation of the GPL to abide by the law is the day every US corporation distributing GPLed software either goes under or stops any activities involving the GPL.

Re:Good-idiots

[KDR_11k]

Also, nothing breaks old values faster than McDonald's and MTV.

Sanctions work so well-

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

Any idea how many US products are over there in Cuba and Syria?

I'll give you a hint, lots.

Just because some provision says "no", doesn't make it so

Re:Sanctions work so well-

[KillerBob]

Canada is Cuba's biggest trading partner. And thanks to NAFTA, US companies can operate in Canada and have their exports governed under Canadian law from the divisions operating in Canada... depending on how it's set up on paper it's entirely possible to have a separate company doing the operations in Canada, and US tax law is actually set up to favour that arrangement. Thanks to NAFTA provisions, it'd be illegal for the US government to penalize a Canadian company for doing business with a country that the US doesn't like.

There's *very* easy ways around trade embargoes that the US government puts up. Especially when countries that the US has free trade with *don't* have the same embargoes.

No OLPCs for Cuba, Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

because as we all know Fidel Castro is immortal.

So?

[DeLanceS]

You say this like it is a bad thing. The less IT infrastructure these repressive regimes have the better. I personally think the embargo against Cuba at this point is counter-productive, but I am not going to cry because they can't use this software either.

Re:So?

[howlingmadhowie]

of course. we know that only people born in the bastion of democracy called the great united states of america deserve education and health. everybody else can go fuck themselves. it was their choice not to want to get fat and invade other countries, killing their civilians and destroying their culture.

slightly ott of me, i know. but it's the thought that counts.

Re:So?

[DamnStupidElf]

You say this like it is a bad thing. The less IT infrastructure these repressive regimes have the better. I personally think the embargo against Cuba at this point is counter-productive, but I am not going to cry because they can't use this software either.

Excellent point. Without technological infrastructure, things like the DMCA takedown notices, RIAA John Doe suits, Echelon, Carnivore, and CCTV cameras on street corners would all be impossible. Or do you have some other, more narrow, definition of "repressive" in mind?

Re:So?

[Trogre]

How about the fact that no matter who might be watching you, Mr Elf, you are still able to write what you just did.

Re:So?

[DamnStupidElf]

How about the fact that no matter who might be watching you, Mr Elf, you are still able to write what you just did.

Oh, sure, unless I post one of a few 16 byte numbers that violate the DMCA or some text from OC3. Slashdot is mostly anonymous and even the MAFIAA doesn't have time to track down and sue every evildoing DMCA breaker, but there's no reason I should have to play the odds for free speech in the first place. Likewise, I shouldn't have to be searched for liquids and toothpaste when I get on an airplane, or forced to carry around insecure RFID passports and IDs, or be barred from public assembly in some places, or worry about connecting to wireless access points in some states, or worry about being able to get married if I was gay, or be forced to accept binding arbitration with my employer in any dispute because some justices figured it would be okay to allow people to give away their right to due process.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean much without freedom from torture, freedom of movement, freedom of assembly, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures, and freedom from huge corporations suing me for outrageous damages.

I'd still rather have free beer.

[Kadin2048]

Free-as-in-liberty does not have anything to do with free-as-in-healthcare.

So, why do they need an OLPC?

[fermion]

We know that the export laws work perfectly, and no third party sources will ever resell. This is why we never see any American made weapons in these countries. And this is why we never see any cuban cigars, especially among the so called patriots, in America.

What is true is that none of these machines will be sold directly to such a country, and therefore will not be as prevalent as other countries, assuming that these machines are going to prevalent anywhere. What it also means is that extraneous third parties are going to cut off the sale of these machines.

Of course if we believe that these countries are lawless and without manners, then why do they need the OLPC anyway? All the computers are made in China, a fellow red label state, and if the chinese are willing to ship poisoned food to the States, I see no reason why they would not ship reliable computers to cuba. Likewise, if cuba or syria or any of these countries run unlicensed copies of windows and other software, who is going to stop them. The copyright people are notorious about preferring soft target hard targets, so they are unlikely to mount an offensive against so-called renegade countries.

So, in the end, given their outlaw status, I bet these countries could get a fully loaded MS Windows PC cheaper than they could an stripped down OLPC.

Some of us ARE literate!

[RingDev]

Just to make sure you are aware that not everyone who read your post immediately jumped to the wrong conclusion and donned their flame suit... I read your post as replying to the post you just indicated as well, and it made perfect sense to me. While I might not agree entirely with your sentiment, it seemed clear enough to me that you were not specifically talking about Cuba.

-Rick

Re:Some of us ARE literate!

[Anonymous Coward]

In what part of the OP was there any explicit mention of any other embargoes than the ones on Cuba?
Or any other embargo not enacted by the US?
He just took the quote out of context to get the UN in the topic, somehow.

Seems to me

[LarryfromMalvern]

Those are exactly the places you want computers - especially for the poor. The one commodity these government are having a difficult time controlling is information.

Re:Seems to me

[CanadaIsCold]

I don't think the US government would disagree with that. If you could 100% guarantee that only children will use these computers in order to learn, then I think the US government would hand deliver them. The concern behind these laws is that if computers are multipurpose what prevents the government or a terrorist group using these computers for themselves. Before I get beat up with the "Like terrorist's/unfriendly gvmts don't have computers!!" argument, my response is: So that means we should supply them with more?

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

You say that as if it's not possible to do things that are painful. Using that study to say that all altruism isn't really altruistic is not even wrong.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

"You say that as if it's not possible to do things that are painful."

I agree with you in princible, though considering that pain can also trigger pleasure centers that's not the most efficient counter to his point.

0LPC

[Joebert]

Looks like we better swap that O out with a zero.

0 Laptops Per Cubin.

Re:0LPC

[Joebert]

I just learned that if you enter

define:cuban

into Google search, Carlos Mencia knocks on your door moments later to give you, "The Lecture".

Re:0LPC

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

How many cubits are in a cubin?

Why start the project in the US and fake shock?

[stratjakt]

Like they didn't know about these export restrictions when this project started.

They could have set it up in a few hours north in Canada, and been free and clear.

Guess what else? No iPhones for Cuba, Syria and the like.. ever. Imagine that. The WHOLE WORLD will be revolutionized and brought into a new era of peace and prosperity, except Cuba. All because George Bush is a terrorist!

Anyways, who else hates america? I never get tired of hearing slashdots insightful political commentary.

OLPCs for the facists

[dokhebi]

I was going to comment on this topic, but I realized that most of the people who have their comments visible are of the mind that: a) economic sanctions don't work, and b) military action doesn't work.

I guess that these people believe the only way to make the world a better place is to toke up, hand out folowers, drop your pants and bend over. All this gets you is butt-fucked before before decaptitation.

See you all in hell.

As always, just by $0.02 worth.

Poor little Fidel (w/ obligatory)

[Ardipithecus]

Another PR note used for news by lazy reporters, keeps colostomy-boy in the public eye.

Whether "allowed" or not, these will be pirated as are Windows, Hollywood movies, etc. with not a peep from Mr. Softie, *AA, or anyone else.

It'd take the dumbest /.er five minutes to figure out how to get US goods into any of these "embargo" countries, and a day to implement given the readily available resources.

Needless to say, it's been done and functions very smoothly, thank you very much.

"Nothing to see here, move along"

Trivial to work around

[njchick]

One person signs the agreement and submits the project to Fedora. Anther person submits the project from Fedora to OLPC. There is no requirement that it's the same person.

Re:Good-idiots

[Mockylock]

Yeah. Everyone we don't deal with is always in good standing, and their government has no reason of harming their own citizens.

Besides, how many countries do we honestly help out with sending food and supplies, yet it's intercepted by it's own government before it actually gets to those who are starving?

I don't know the numbers offhand, but I'm PRETTY sure that most of the countries that have sanctions against them wouldn't use the economy for their own citizens, regardless of the amount or origin.

It doesn't HELP by enforcing a sanction by any means, but it pressures the country to make a change. Otherwise, they'll continue fucking over their own people.

GPL license conflict

[Simon80]

I would guess that once the software has been rebranded under the rights granted by the GPL, Red Hat can't enforce any export restrictions on it (because I'm guessing it would conflict with the GPL. So this story is probably just baseless fearmongering, or perhaps even anti Red Hat FUD.

Re:GPL license conflict

[Anonymous Coward]

National Security Directives trump the GPL retard.

With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[billstewart]

The Cuba embargo is mostly around because fanatics in Florida take it very personally, and there are enough votes in Florida that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are willing to mess with it. Eventually Castro's going to die, and that might change things.

But Cuba's main agricultural product, besides tobacco, is sugar, and the US has had high tariffs on sugar for a long time. Not only does that prop up US sugar producers (mainly Louisiana, Hawaii, Florida_) by keeping the US sugar price far higher than the world average, but the High-Fructose Corn Syrup lobby likes high sugar prices because they can put their dreck into our soda, while the rest of the world gets to have Coke with real sugar in it. So the Archer Daniels Midland gang also don't want free trade with Cuba.

I'd recommend that next time you're in Canada, you get some Cuban cigars, except for the problem that they put carcinogenic flammable tobacco products in the things....

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Volante3192]

And rum. Heard Cuban rum is great stuff. (...hrm, nother notch for the sugar cartel I guess...)

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[daem0n1x]

You bet! Cuban rum is great, that Bacardi shit they sell us everywhere sucks.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Grishnakh]

I'm curious: does Coke in Canada have sugar in it, or HFCS? I've been to Canada a couple of times in the last few years, but didn't think to look at the cans. Can any Canadians chime in here?

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Telvin_3d]

Nope, same as the US. However, I think that is because much of it is shipped in from the states, so using the same formula makes sense in a lot of ways. Wyou get to places either large enough or geographicly far enough away you start to see sugar.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[allscan]

Except that Cuban cigars have fallen far behind the rest of the world. Once the Embargo came down all the cigar manufacturers and growers got the hell out and moved to places in South/Central America. There was an article on some cigar site when Castro was in the hospital a while ago that mentioned that Cuban cigars will be, both, extremely expensive and most likely not very high quality for several years after.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Emetophobe]

See this blog: http://shawn-news.blogspot.com/2007/06/my-sugary-c anadian-coca-cola.html

Or a direct link to the image of the Coke can with ingredients: http://bp3.blogger.com/_yepdryo6x-A/RmbpSd3a7OI/AA AAAAAAAy0/pdbVoFMNxj0/s1600-h/CokeIngredients.jpg

Looks like Canadian Coke uses sugar.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that the price of Corn is going up, do to ethanol/biodiesel productions, incentives, it would be wise for the U.S. to supplement the shift of corn elsewhere, with sugar for soda and other products currently forced to use Corn Syrup.

As I work at an Ag Policy body, I hear plenty, because I ask, about the stranglehold the Corn Lobby has over Sugar Imports, or the lack thereof. There can only be SO MUCH Corn planted in the US, and we are presently pretty close to that limit. As such, if there is a market shift for corn use, specifically to ethanol/biodiesel, and an alternative(sugar) is available for the starving market(..soda,etc..), why would you not alter that policy to breathe new business, and help the markets?

Its amazing the amount stupidity that lurks within our Ag. Lobbies, our elected officials, and foreign trade policies. At some point, protecting your markets for the sake of security and profit, become harmful to the economy, free trade, and International business.

The more I read, hear, discuss these things, the more I tell myself to stop and let it go. I know speaking about it to others who are not informed helps some, but what can one person do other that educate those that need educating? Its enough to make an informed man go insane.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[randomjohndoe]

This is true

The Cuba embargo is mostly around because fanatics in Florida take it very personally, and there are enough votes in Florida that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are willing to mess with it.
Florida has 25 elecotoral votes, 4th behind California (54), New York (33) and Texas (32).

The US Electoral College is a winner takes all system, so the presidential candidate who wins the popular vote in any state, no matter how small the margin, gets all the electoral votes for that state. In 2000 Bush beat Gore in FL by a tiny fraction of a percent, winning all 25 of FL's electoral votes, and thus the election. Anti-Castro Cubans are not a big group, but they are concentrated in FL and they are single issue voters (whereas anti-embargo voters are neither), so they can swing a close presidential election. So their influence on Cuba policy is disproportionate.

Something that is overlooked is that even if Castro lives to be 120, the US policy will change eventually because the Anti-Castro Cubans are getting older too, and their children are more moderate. And a lot of them would like to visit their homeland some day.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[chris_mahan]

I think it's because sugar canes are apparently a more efficient source of ethanol than corn.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[mjpaci]

Domestic sugar production in the US comes mostly from sugar beets, not sugar cane -- mostly due to climate. The Carribean is much better suited to grow sugar cane than Lousiana and Florida. Sugar beets thrive in LA and FL so you get a better yield per acre of sugar.

(Informational post, only)

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[paxmark1]

The next time your in Canada, fly to Cuba. It is the "place to go" in Canada for the winter holiday.

  Just hang out at the curling rink in Canada and listen the richer women compete in the hierarchy of winter vacation spots. Cuba trumps Costa Rica trumps Aucapulco etc.

And then just don't go back to the US.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[triskaidekaphile]

Per the Constitution, each state legislature chooses how that state will decide that state's electors (representatives) for the Electoral College. 48 of the 50 states and the District of Colombia have a winner-take-all system. Nebraska and Maine do not. I recall Colorado had a ballot initiative a few years ago to change their elector selection, but I believe that failed.

Note that the winner-take-all system is the product of the two-party system in the U.S. It's one reason the two dominant political parties argue that you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. In truth, it is really the weak link. Even a marginally successful third party in a close Presidential race can tip the scales such as Nader did in 2000.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[cayenne8]

"Domestic sugar production in the US comes mostly from sugar beets, not sugar cane -- mostly due to climate. The Carribean is much better suited to grow sugar cane than Lousiana and Florida."

Come visit NOLA today, I'm sure you'll LOVE our caribbean heat and humidity down here today. And the next day...and the next......

Well, let's put it this way, I won't be turning the A/C off till sometime mid to late November.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Anonymous Coward]

Your a tool for suggesting people go support communism.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[mjpaci]

NOLA? Isn't that Emmeril Lagasse's restaurant? You must have a lot of money if your hanging out there all the time? You wouldn't happen to own a sugar beet plantation?

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[jdavidb]

It also means I have a long drive and have to pay extra to get real Dr Pepper.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[randomjohndoe]

Heh. I need to review Schoolhouse Rock http://www.amazon.com/Schoolhouse-Rock-Special-30t h-Anniversary/dp/B00005JKTY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-45 83311-5198262?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1183062930&sr=8-1

Note that the residents of the District of Columbia only get to vote in the primaries. They have no vote in the general election, nor do they have congressional representation --- not counting the single House delegate, Eleanor Holmes Norton, who may or may not have a vote in the House depending on the party in power.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, made from sugar beets. I've heard of Canadians who pack their own Coca-Cola when they cross the border to Science Fiction conventions. Sometimes they drink it and sometimes they sell it at a premium.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[notamisfit]

At Wal-Mart recently (at least here in Oklahoma), they've had "special edition" six-packs of Dr. Pepper with cane sugar. No HFCS on the ingredients list (though for all I know they're damn liars). TTYTT, it all kinda tastes the same.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[drawfour]

Even in the states that have a winner-take-all system, the offically selected electoral representatives each make their final vote in the electoral college. They can (and have, in some cases) voted contrary to the way they were supposed to vote. They are called faithless electors.

However, my understanding is that once the representative makes their vote, it's final. The state cannot say "but wait, he didn't vote the way he was supposed to!" and get a new vote.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Anonymous Coward]

Over the last year I've learned to read the labels for high fructose corn syrup. The stuff is poison to me.

I'm a bicyclist and I have had increasing trouble with exercise induced asthma over the last few years. I thought it was age related (I'm in the last half of my fifties). Last season I started using powdered Gator-Ade at times rather than the usual assorted bottled sports drinks. I found I had no asthma problems at all on some rides, and when I started looking for the reason, the only significant change I found was that Gator-Ade made from powder has no HFCS in it. I've since found that when I stick with foods and beverages that I know have no HFCS in them, I have no breathing problems and I've got about the strength and endurance I had 20 years ago. (I'm actually riding faster than I ever did before, but some of that is because I can afford a better bike).

The kicker is that recently I did start having asthma symptoms again, and when I reviewed my diet, I found that the Wheat Thins I had bought out of nostalgia (hadn't had any for many years)are now made with HCFS. Stopped munching on the Wheat Thins (I had bought a large box at Costco), and the asthma went away.

HFCS is basically unhealthy.

Anyone want a couple of pounds of Wheat Thins?

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[ncc74656]

At Wal-Mart recently (at least here in Oklahoma), they've had "special edition" six-packs of Dr. Pepper with cane sugar.

The Wal-Mart one block away from my office (in Las Vegas) was (maybe still is) selling 12-oz. glass bottles of Mexican Coke (with sugar, bottle markings en español with an English-language sticker added on) for about $1 each. I normally stick with Diet Coke, but bought a bottle for sh*ts and grins.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[Craig Davison]

No, it's sugar. American coca cola tastes different (worse, IMO).
Coke from western Canada: Water, Sugar/Glucose-Fructose, Caramel Colour, Phosphoric Acid, Natural Flavour, Caffeine. I had some in Vegas and it definitely had corn syrup listed on the bottle, and the flavour was not the same.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[norton_I]

Washington DC has three electoral votes. Technically, Per the 23rd amendment, they have as many electors votes as their population would entitle them to if they were a state, not to exceed the least populous state.

In the 2000 election, one elector abstained to protest the lack of representation in congress.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[schweinhund]

Oh those silly Florida 'fanatics'. I guess you would feel a little fanatical too, if your family had been tortured, oppressed and murdered by a troupe of bandits.

Maybe not, maybe you would just join the elites with plenty of ingratiating brown nosing and act like nothing was amiss, hoping to avoid the wrong kind of attention. You know, the kind of attention that neighborhood commitees which spy on how much food you have on your plate might bring.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[schweinhund]

No Cuban-American worth a damn who has knowledge of what's going on down there is looking to get soft and hope for tourist trips. People who support Castro and his violent thugs are most likely very ignorant of the realities of the communist methods of enforcement.

Re:With Cuba, it's personal (plus sugar lobby...)

[tehcyder]

I'd recommend that next time you're in Canada, you get some Cuban cigars, except for the problem that they put carcinogenic flammable tobacco products in the things...

Yeah, it's like that nasty alcohol stuff they put in their lovely rum.

Call up Venezuela

[gelfling]

Those dudes are building the Rohas Revolucion Hombre's home computer for near-free. I'm sure oil rich angry expropriate all the industries and nationalize them Marxism can fix everything for them.

Re:Call up Venezuela

[nagora]

I'm sure oil rich angry expropriate all the industries and nationalize them Marxism can fix everything for them.

This is the most incoherent text I've seen on /. for ages. But I'm glad to know that you're sure about it.

Re:Call up Venezuela

[gelfling]

You have to parse it inside out. Read it aloud.

After years of sanctions ...

[Bob-taro]

... this will be the one that finally triggers democratic reforms in Cuba!

Re:Good-idiots

[treak007]

wow you guys really drank the neocon coolaid. Learn to look through the propoganda, and you might see there is a world OUTSIDE THE US. Fuck off you stupid drones. Propaganda? or FACT? (btw, learn to spell propaganda)

Sanctions only exist to subjugate the peoples of these countries,increasing the death rates of the young, and lower the quality of life of the citizens. Subjugate the people? Increase death rates? Sounds like failings of their government. Maybe if they had an efficient political system they wouldn't be begging the U.S. for rations. I do understand that sanctions can LEAD to these things, however they are not to the CAUSE to be blamed for them. The real cause is the mismanaged and corrupt governments of these "rogue states"

Sanctions, and withholding of technologies of these "rogue states" (read: any states that have the balls to stand up to US economic and social hegemony), only serves to bolster these regimes(many of which were installed and supported by the CIA/NSA/etc to fight other "threats"). rogue states (read: states that continue to take ill-willed actions against progress and the United States). US economic and social hegemony? Sounds like someone should perhaps look at reality before condemning others for preaching propaganda.

Face it, US foreign policy is one of economic fascism, cultural indoctrination and genocide. I'm a proud American who is embarassed by the evil imperialists who run our country. Haha, I would love for you to provide examples of how the US foreign policy is one of any of those things. Perhaps you should look up the words fascist and genocide before you spew them to preach your propaganda. You are a proud American? You are nothing more then a brainwashed tool spewing lies and conspiracy theories about things you do not fully understand.

Not like Cuba, or Syria allow private internet con

[olivercromwell]

I was under the impression that part of the OLPC project was not only to get computers into the hands of people in under developed countries, but also to get them connected. Well, in Cuba it is an offense to have a PC at home without permission and license from the State, and private internet connections are forbidden. Possessing a PC, and having connected to the net can get you 20 years in the pogey. So, the OLPC would likely have been a no go in Cuba anyway. Furthermore, I think the money wasted on OLPC would have been far better spent setting up programs for low intensity, organic agriculture desigend to replace cash crop cultivation with food supply crops. But, I guess feeding people isn't as cool, or sexy as sending them a bright gree, hand cranked laptop. To me, Negroponte is an ass.

Re:Good-idiots

[the_tsi]

It's a lot easier to dismiss opinions you don't like by alleging they are being propagated by people who don't analyze them, isn't it?

Confusing signal for cause

[athloi]

The researcher confuses signal and cause. The good-feeling is a response to altruism, but that is what drives us toward altruism, not some inherent desire to do good. If altruism produces a feelgood feeling like drugs do, we must recognize that this is the motivator and not altruism itself. We are reacting to the effect, not finding a cause within ourselves to take the action. Otherwise, heroin addicts are taking drugs simply to keep the drugs from getting lonely.

Re:Confusing signal for cause

[gomiam]

The funny thing about all this is that the referred article talks about an area that activates when we detect something that is good for others and the same area activates when we detect something that is good for us. Then again, we have this other information that ties altruism to social-relationship-handling areas of the brain. It looks like many areas of the brain activate on altruism. To settle everything on pleasure seems, to me, simplistic. If it was just that, we wouldn't put ourselves at great risk of or suffer grave injuries to help someone we don't even know: the pain of losing a limb or your life is greater than the reward your altruism provides (at least usually). And yet, again and again we find people taking risks to help someone else.

I'm sorry, the "pleasure response" doesn't quite cut it, IMHO. Oh, by the way, I may have drifted off-topic: my main point of contention was that athloi's references were misinterpreted. You think the researcher reached the wrong conclusion, I don't. It's up to you to prove he did.

Couldn't they do a special?

[niceone]

OLPC Elian Edition?

OLPCs are for the poor nations

[Kirgin]

Cuba has oil now(always there I guess)...lots of it. Potentially as much as Venezuela. Canada is helping develop these oil fields. Currently Cuba's national demand is 10 million tons of oil, they are producing 6 million tons...4 years ago they were producing next to nothing. So in 4 more years Cuba will have an oil surplus. With a oil surplus, a thirsty European Union and 2 of the most advanced refineries in the world(Canada)that can process its sulphur rich oil, they will be buying brand new Lenovo laptops from China :P.

how long

[dosquatch]

40 years after the Cuban missle crisis. 20 years after "Tear down this wall!". 10 years after the Soviet Union dissolved.

Isn't it about time for this piece of cold war bullshit to finally die?

I know this affects other countries as well. Funny, though, that embargo restrictions can be adapted at will for the whims of the politicians. Why not for this?

Re:how long

[Anonymous Coward]

Your's is a common misconception. It isn't about communism, it is about property of US citizens that was stolen (nationalized) by the Cuban government. If Cuba were to compensate the US owners of that property (as they have done with French and several other countries' owners) they could get the embargo lifted.

Got Hyperbole?

[MSTCrow5429]

"By being forced to submit contributions to the Fedora repository they automatically fall under the provisions of US export law. So, no OLPC for Cuba, Syria and the like. Ever."

Well, no, only until they are removed from the State Department's List of State Sponsors of International Terrorism. This has happened for Iraq (on, off, on, off), Libya (on account of "Libya's continued commitment to its renunciation of terrorism") and the People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (merged with the Yemen Arab Republic).

This might backfire

[Anonymous Coward]

Take this to court, and they will rule the entire GPL illegal for violating the US law

Re:This might backfire

[Alain Williams]

That assumes that it is exported from the USA. If I were to export it from the UK it would be OK -- the UK tends to take the pragmatic opinion that if something is publically and easily available (as much GPL s/ware is) then it will not restrict exports.

BTW: US laws don't (yet) apply in the UK.

Only the code part

[Anonymous Coward]

The GPL covers only code. The article was about restricting the OLPC from being exported to Cuba/Syria/etc. because the code would be covered by export restrictions. In that regard, OLPC has a problem. The hardware isn't sourced in America and would be very hard to cover with export restrictions.

Somebody could send nuclear weapons to Cuba/Syria/etc. and nobody could be prosecuted. Of course the last time the Russians tried that we threatened to bomb them off the face of the planet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

I suspect the GPL'd nuclear bomb software is about the last thing we have to worry about. It's the uranium bits that get everyone upset.

Re:Only the code part

[FuzzyDaddy]

Perhaps I should clarify my point. A civil contractual obligation can in no way supercede federal law. So if restricted distribution is prohibited under the terms of the GPL (a point I am not making), and federal law restricts distribution, then legally no distribution can take place. It does not mean that the GPL overrides federal law, which it cannot do.

My original comment was an attempt to argue this point by taking it to an absurd extreme in imagining if I made an obviously restricted device - say a nuclear weapon - and incorporated GPL'd software on it (most nuclear weapon delivery systems, I imagine, are running some sort of embedded OS) - then clearly the fact that there was GPL'd software on the device would not supercede federal and international restrictions controlling the distribution of weapons of mass destruction.

Perhaps the brevity of the remark led you to believe I had grossly misinterpreted the nature of the GPL and it's applicability, and led you to miss the larger point about the naivite of the original poster. I sincerely hope this more verbose explanation will sufficiently illuminate the matter.

OLPC in Cuba?

[alexgieg]

What's an OLPC without Internet connection? Because, if you don't know, the Cuban government mandates that any Internet access by Cubans be made through the official state ISP, which can be dialed up only from phone lines that pay in dollars, which Cubans are usually prohibited from possessing. Worse: if you want a computer, you first need approval from the government, which can simply say "no". Given that, do you think the Communist Party of Cuba would change the rules and allow freedom for children? Some information I googled 3 mins ago:

• Cuba law tightens internet access
  
• Press Freedom Group Tests Cuban Internet Surveillance
  
• Internet access in Cuba
  

So, don't fool yourself. Right now, lack of OLPC notebooks is the least of the problems faced by Cuban children. Or, for that matter, by their parents.

Re:OLPC in Cuba?

[gerddie]

Well, thanks to the US-embargo, Cuba has only a very slow and expensive satellite connection

"Despite the fact that international fibre optic cables run very close to Cuban shores, the rules of the (U.S.) blockade prevent connection to these," said Cuban Informatics and Communications Minister Ramiro Valdés. According to Valdés, Washington agreed to Cuba's connection to the Internet in 1996, but opposed its connection to any fibre optic cable, "meaning that the nation is forced to use a satellite channel with a mere 65 Mbps (megabytes per second) broadband for output and 124 Mbps for input." "The rules also state that any new addition to or modification of the channel requires a license from the U.S. Treasury Department," he said.

If bandwidth is that low (because a satellite connection is also a lot more expensive) one has to set priorities who gets the bandwidth first. Speaking of this, since I did a research project in Havana, I had the opportunity to experience that 1.5k is considered to be a fast connection in the research lab. My colleagues said, if I go to the internet cafe around the corner (where I would have to pay hard cash) I might have a faster connection.

Hopefully, the situation will improve by laying a cable to Venezuela, like they state in the article above. And then one can start to complain about internet not being cheaply available to all.

Re:OLPC in Cuba?

[alexgieg]

Well, thanks to the US-embargo, Cuba has only a very slow and expensive satellite connection (. . .) Hopefully, the situation will improve by laying a cable to Venezuela, like they state in the article above. And then one can start to complain about internet not being cheaply available to all.

Cuba makes business with more than 135 countries. The USA embargo can be everything, but it surely isn't causing any meaningful economic damage. The day the Cuban government stops "embargoing" the Cuban citizens hands, mouths and minds, is the day things will start improving, with or without any external USA embargo. Until then, there's no hope.

Re:OLPC in Cuba?

[alexgieg]

This is interesting. I offer hard data in my message, and someone classifies me as "troll", while other sets me as "overrated". I wonder what passes in the mind of someone who is so ideologically blind that he doesn't want to discuss the information in a straightforward way, but prefers to simply hide it so no one can see it. This remembers me of those cool students back in my Philosophy classes who talk all the time about how everyone should be allowed to speak their mind, but when one actually appears saying things they dislike, unplug the microphone or yell so much that no one can hear what he's saying. Censorship is freedom of speech, ostracizing your opposition is democracy, mob intimidation is to be intellectually sound? Cognitive dissonance at its best, it seems.

It's about not aiding evil, PURE FUD for Software

[twitter]

The US still is under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change in these countries. Even though they haven't worked at all ...

They started working they day they were made. While regime change is nice, it's not the only reason to have trade embargoes. A more fundamental reason is to stop helping tyrants. Trade is always mutually beneficial, the first goal of embargoes is to end that benefit to countries that oppress their own people. A second reason is to maintain the value of your own labor. The whole purpose of oppression is to make yourself rich off other people's work, aka slavery. Trade with countries that use slave labor puts free industry at risk. These goals are noble and worthwile, despite obvious contradictions and omissions like China's most favored nation status and other of our own misdeeds.

That being said, this article stinks. Export controls have been used against free software before and were entirely pointless. The line of reasoning would extinguish any and all network software distribution, free and non free. Focusing that line of reasoning onto free software as "free software aids terrorists" is a tactic that was predicted:

I also expect a serious effort, backed by several billion dollars in bribe money (oops, excuse me, campaign contributions), to get open-source software outlawed on some kind of theory that it aids terrorists.

Using OLPC for this purpose is particularly asinine. They might as well outlaw cookbook publication because some hated foreign leader might get his hands on the Joy of Cooking and use the fresh pork section as a guide to cooking babies.

It's a question of principles

[mangu]

The US still is under the impression that sanctions and trade embargoes will actually cause regime change in these countries.

The US actually has a very coherent policy on that. At the top level there are regimes like Saddam, which reach a degree of aggression that will not be tolerated, these will be removed from power with all necessary use of force. The second level is regimes like Castro, too repugnant to have business with, but not enough to merit direct military action. Then there are different levels where business to some degree is allowed, but without what could be called "encouragement". Even if an economic embargo may not work, it's better than saying "OK, since an embargo will not work let's help these dictators".

Even though they haven't worked at all (and in fact have only served to further entrench the regimes in question) over the more than 40 years they've been in place, we're still convinced that if we keep them around just a little bit longer, democracy will flourish.

There's no "what if" in international politics, there's no mathematical model that will let anyone tell if a particular policy will work or not. But I still believe in basic principles, I think it's wrong to help one of the most cruel dictatorships in recent history. Perhaps 40 years is too short a time, after all the Soviet Union survived for 70 years. Maybe if other countries hadn't helped the Castro dictatorship Cuba would be a democracy by now, who knows?

But I must say I admire the firm principles the US government has held against the dictatorship in Cuba. It may not have been the most effective policy, but it does show a basic set of principles. For me, it's better to be right and fail than taking the road most likely to succeed without any regard to what's right or wrong.
 

So...

[dharbee]

What's it like having such a glaring inferiority complex?

Cuba? Terrorist?

[Animats]

Cuba's "terrorism" activities consisted mostly of stuff from the 1960s (Castro supported some of the more militant "black power" movements, and one of them was gearing up to blow up the Statue of Liberty), and Castro's support of various pro-Communist movements in Latin America, which stopped about fifteen years ago when the USSR tanked. Even the Congressional Research Service report doesn't point to any concrete instances of terrorist activities out of Cuba in recent years.

The US boycott of Cuba is mostly about getting votes from Cuban exiles in South Florida.

When you can't use a spoon...

[afxgrin]

...usually a fork will do.

I imagine it's just the encryption laws that are the main restriction. Fork da projekt and den like remove teh crypto. They'll get a crypto-less OS, and I guess they'll have a reason to employ mathematicians.

Broader issue that Helms-Burton

[Lulu of the Lotus-Ea]

The point of why this is a bad move for OLPC isn't just about what's bad with the Cuba export ban specifically. That ban *is* indeed stupid, but this also subverts the international intention of the OLPC project to the narrow whims the US administration.

Perhaps some other country or countries will be declared official enemies next year. Especially if, say, MS and Intel can persuade a US administration that a mandate for Free Software in, say, Peru or Bolivia, is "contrary to US interests". Or even if such a ban is declared for completely unrelated reasons, the OLPC should not allow itself to be derailed by partisan or sensationalist whims of a USA administration.

no submissions to OLPC != no OLPC

[BokLM]

"the OLPC project now requires all submissions to be hosted in the RedHat Fedora project"

As I understand it, submissions are concerned, not the use of OLPC.

True until the regime collapses

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

I agree that sanctions and trade embargoes cause regimes to be more anti-US, more aggressive and more violent, but the big thing here to remember is that as these regimes become more hostile they also become a lesser threat as their society, economy and industries are slowly strangled to death by cutting their ties to outside world. In example if trade would have continued normally with Iran and west after the Islamic revolution, Iran would probably now have many nuclear reactors, have had sooner all equipments and materials to make a nuclear bomb and have a better and more modernly equipped army thus being a bigger threat as it is now.
It should also be noted that sooner or later the people of a country that is in under sanctions and embargoes will rise up and revolt or the inner circle of government makes a coup d'etat and stops the activities that have put the country and it's people under suffering and misery. It may take longer time than sending few carrier groups and marines to the country, but it's still all in all cheaper and more safer method on destroying the regime.

All in all I think that sanctions and embargoes work. They also would work better if all industrialised countries where behind in them. In example of Cuba it's a pity that we Europeans trade with them. I'm sure that if Europe and Canada would now cut all ties to Cuba the regime would collapse in over night as the last breathing holes for the regime would be closed.

Re:True until the regime collapses

[caente]

What's wrong with you man?
I am a cuban I live in Cuba, so you say you are happy with my hunger, with my absent of XXI century?
I'm not agree with my government, I'd like that it changes, but be sure that I either want that my country be a servant of US, an highly hope that there is no more assholes like you, or it will be genuine the hate that a lot of people feels for us-americans

Re:True until the regime collapses

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

Definitely I'm not happy the way things are there, but when choosing on supporting an dictatorship or not supporting it, the definitive choice is not to support it, when choosing between military operation and economic sanctions, the best choice is economic sanctions as it doesn't directly cost lives. If US would trade with Cuba and it's regime, it would the same as supporting it and thus allowing it to suppress it's people, especially as the said regime doesn't have any plans to start reforms on transforming itself to a democracy.

If you don't like your government, if you want the regime to go, my suggestion would for you to make a choice: either continue living like you do, or form a small group, take arms and take on the government. You may want to take some examples on Hungarian revolution in 1956, which unfortunately was suppressed by the Soviet Union. Hungarian revolution is a model on how quickly regimes can collapse. In case of Hungary it started from a small incident and left to country wide anger against the government and quickly lead to situation where citizens openly attacked pro-soviet communists and state police: basically storming in to a place and killing them at an instance. Actually better example would be Romanian revolution which lead to the collapse of the regime and execution of it's leader televised on national television. So things can happen and you can overthrow your government.

If not supporting dictatorships and wanting to do something to change them makes an person an asshole then I'm to proud to be one.

Makes no difference

[teal_]

The government in Cuba restricts web access such that even doctors in hospitals do not have it. I know this because I have had correspondence with one whose only outlet is email. The absurdity of keeping a doctor from researching medical information online is beyond comprehension. On the other hand, they can't risk having people finding out that Cuba isn't such a paradise compared to the rest of the western world.

As long as the Cuban govt jails those who would dare speak ill of the government (including journalists), then I'm not too interested in the rants people have about embargoes. Say what you will about our horribly mismanaged government and all, but we can bitch and moan all we want. I doubt you could get away with calling Fidel or Raul an idiot in Cuba.

Bolivar

[paulthomas]

Bolivarian refers to the revolutionary, Simón Bolívar. I doubt that it was a botched attempt to reference Bolivia, the country. Hugo Chavez calls his policies Bolivarian after the ideas espoused by Bolívar. Hugo Chavez is buddy-buddy with Cuba.

Hope that helps.

Without the US

[N8F8]

Without the US there would be no OLPC. Lovely that you should side with thieves who confiscated everyone's property in Cuba and handed it over to their cronies. Maybe someday you too will have the pleasure of being on the wrong side of that circumstance.

Re:Without the US

[Anonymous Coward]

"thieves who confiscated everyone's property"

We'll, y'see, the cubans don't see it that way.. When all the resources of a nation are in the hands of a few individuals, it becomes a case of everyone confiscating property from thieves.
The USA seems to view Cuba the same way the British Empire used to view North America..

Then why

[dharbee]

Does this non-anecdotal evidence disagree with you?

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idU SL2273073120070523

I suspect your opinion about Americans being assholes has more to do with you than with Americans.

Re:Then why

[Grishnakh]

Sorry, no.

There's a simple reason: the most assholish Americans aren't big tourists. Your article only talks about American tourists who travel to foreign countries. That's a very small subset of Americans, typically only ones with money and education, and an interest in foreign travel (remember, we have a large part of a continent to ourselves here, so we don't need to go to a different country to see totally different geography).

For instance, the article mentioned how Britons were notoriously miserly tippers. We have a certain ethnic group here in America that is also notoriously miserly towards tipping (we've had whole talk TV shows discussing the topic, and their attitude is that they shouldn't have to tip). Well, these people also aren't exactly big foreign travelers, so restaurant servers in Europe wouldn't see this side of America.

So maybe American travelers aren't so bad, but the ones I have to deal with (especially while driving) every day tend to have a higher percentage of assholes than I saw while roaming the streets in Vancouver.

However, I have heard horror stories about American tourists who try to talk English to everyone, yell at them if they don't understand thinking this will make them comprehend English, dress really badly, act very arrogant, just act very loud and boisterous in general, etc. I've not only read about this bad behavior, I know people who will testify to it firsthand because they've seen it in their fellow travelers. I really wonder how this article managed to miss this.

Re:Then why

[richlv]

For instance, the article mentioned how Britons were notoriously miserly tippers. We have a certain ethnic group here in America that is also notoriously miserly towards tipping (we've had whole talk TV shows discussing the topic, and their attitude is that they shouldn't have to tip).

i don't like tipping. actualy, i somewhat hate it.
first, i like precise conditions. if i come into a place to eat, i want to take a look at the menu, decide how hungry i am and how much money i want to spend - and not to think about "how much would be a good and a polite thing to leave ?"

second, this implies that politeness should be bought.

third, this results in lower base wages, relaying on customers to pay directly to the personnel. so fake politeness prevails, and no tipping can get a rude response.

overall, this system sucks bigtime :)

Re:Then why

[Grishnakh]

Think what you want about it, that's the system that's in place. If you don't like tipping, don't go out to eat. If you're going to go to restaurants, you need to tip, like it or not. It's really as simple as that.

I like being able to decide how much I want to pay for service; it helps prevent lousy service.

Re:Then why

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

"If you don't like tipping, don't go out to eat. If you're going to go to restaurants, you need to tip, like it or not. It's really as simple as that."

Apparently, you don't understand tipping at all. If you go out a restaurant and the service is terrible you certainly don't "need to tip", as you claim. Pull your head out of your ass.

Re:Then why

[Grishnakh]

You were modded down for good reason. If the service is terrible, you're right, you don't need to tip. This is a Slashdot post, not a dissertation on tipping, so I didn't bother to cover every possibility.

But even with terrible service, it's better if you do tip, so they don't think you just forgot. The greatest insult is to tip a single penny. Thankfully this is extremely rare; I can only remember doing this once in my whole life. Usually if the service is not-so-great, I tip 10%.

You should probably get some therapy if you feel the need to insult people on Slashdot over technical details on tipping.

Re: Blame Cuba

[giafly]

Let's not talk about lack of freedom of speech, executions without trial, or with fake trials, because that is not inherent to Cuba and its regime.

I think you'll find the Castro "regime" doesn't run Guantanamo Bay,
even though geographically it's in Cuba.

Cuban Cigars

[Anonymous Coward]

After all these years Castro is still pissed off about all the evil things the US did in his country during the cold war. Castro would sell a whole lot more Cigars if they would just put the past behind them.. ~CIA

Middle Middle men?

[Sparr0]

So I export it to Bob in the UK, and he resells it to Joe in the UK, and Joe exports it Cuba. Assuming the law requires me to track Bob's business dealings, how am I supposed to know that Joe wasn't an end user?

the embargo is a two-edged sword

[gobbo]

You bet! Cuban rum is great, that Bacardi shit they sell us everywhere sucks.

Here's a perk of living in (even rural) Canada: I go down to the garage/general/liquor store, and there on the shelf is Havana Club, "Ron puro Cubano," mmm, great is right. And cuban coffee in the cupboard, it's only pretty good but it's organic.

There may be long-term competitive benefits accruing to Cuba out of the blockade and its hardships.

The whole island has pretty much gone organic, as part of the austerity produced by the embargo, and they're trying to turn that constraint into a strength. When the embargo finally drops in the US, watch for cuban specialty products showing up in the organic food stores.

They need an internationally credible domestic certification system to really flourish, however the embargo has forced them to look hard at their local food security, so they'd be okay if international trade was interrupted. They have international trade in things like organic fruits and coffee, and they've made interesting innovations with domestic distribution in mind, like the Organopónicos.

The embargo has created constraints that make it an interesting testbed for development without the overwhelming influence of large transnationals. It's a race between the international organic sector to help establish Cuba as an entrenched organic ag system and the influx of Life Sciences transnationals that might happen if there's regime change.

Cuba's ripe turf for donated linux-ready systems, so support that goal in some way. There's enough real zeal for independence and common interests to make it a interesting test bed for a society running on open-source software.

Re:the embargo is a two-edged sword

[daem0n1x]

They are already a world power in advanced medicine. I personally know some people that went to Cuba for treatments that don't exist anywhere else. I read they are becoming great at biotech and registering patents like crazy.

Sure, it's a dictatorship but the social indicators for Cuba are among the best in the World. Even in the human rights issue, Cuba ranks better than many american countries, including... cough, cough, the USA. If it wasn't for this dumb embargo, Cuba would have gone democratic many years ago.

EU countries have businesses with Cuba but the private companies are weary of doing any business because they don't want to piss off the Americans. And our politicians are a bunch of wusses that won't do anything about it. That's how you starve an intelligent, creative, colourful, proud nation.

This embargo is a crime against the Cuban people, it's stupid and has yet to produce any positive result. Cuba is an incredible business oportunity for the capitalist World. Please tell your politicians to stop being assholes, I'll tell mine to stop being wusses.

Re:the embargo is a two-edged sword

[gobbo]

Sure, it's a dictatorship but the social indicators for Cuba are among the best in the World. Even in the human rights issue, Cuba ranks better than many american countries, including... cough, cough, the USA. If it wasn't for this dumb embargo, Cuba would have gone democratic many years ago.

The embargo isn't as dumb as you think it is. Hard-liner american cubans don't want democracy as most people think of it, they want Bush-style strong rule backed by corporatism and diplomatic links to DC, with the restoration of the elite property system that existed under Batista.

Pushing Cuba into a political extreme by placing it under perpetual war alert and deprivation probably strengthens their long-term righteousness.

they are becoming great at biotech and registering patents like crazy.

This is one of the problems for the credibility of their organic certification process: GMO's aren't currently certifiably organic, however productive they may be.

Re:the embargo is a two-edged sword

[Crazy Eight]

If it wasn't for this dumb embargo, Cuba would have gone democratic many years ago.

How can you justify that assertion? When has Castro claimed his grip on power would be used to create a Cuban democracy as soon as the American Embargo ended? My imagination can't summon any motive, however fanciful or ridiculous, for a "Velvet Revolution" in Cuba that relates to a change in American economic policy. America may be an economic powerhouse, but I don't think it can match the trading potential of the rest of planet Earth which is what Cuba mostly has left over. Honestly now, what's driving this notion that the only thing standing between Cubans and democracy is the lack of an American cigar market?

Re:the embargo is a two-edged sword

[daem0n1x]

Looks like you didn't read my post.

I didn't say that Castro would switch to democracy if the embargo ended. A good economical environment would do that. The embargo is the best excuse to keep the dictatorship.

USA is the richest country in the World, and no sensible company in the World would prevent themselves to have business with USA to be able to deal with a small country like Cuba. Even the governments in the whole globe passively participate in the embargo because they are constantly blackmailed by American government and get chicken. Get real, the American embargo goes much more deeper than it looks like.

Re:the embargo is a two-edged sword

[daem0n1x]

You are mistaking biotech with OGMs. The things I read Cuba was great about had nothing to do with OGM food. It was biotech for medical stuff, vaccines and the like.

Re:the embargo is a two-edged sword

[Crazy Eight]

I read your post quite clearly. However prosperous Cuba might be without an embargo right now, American economic love wasn't enough to inspire democracy back when Batista was in power and Havana was like Las Vegas. Again, the onus is on you to show how selling more sugar, rum, and cigars to Americans would directly cause Castro's regime to cede itself or fall to democracy.

Re:the embargo is a two-edged sword

[gobbo]

You are mistaking biotech with OGMs. [sic] The things I read Cuba was great about had nothing to do with OGM food. It was biotech for medical stuff, vaccines and the like.

However, Castro is on record as being ambivalent towards GMO's (Genetically Modified Organisms), expressing the overall government's policy of wait-and-see, i.e. field testing and risk assessment. They are, for sure, producing GE tilapia, but no news about crops in production. This is unlike the 'no-GMO' attitude in other pro-organic production jurisdictions around the world, and perhaps this reflects the embargo.

You see, in the absence of the megacorporate agro-evil transnational life sciences companies like Monsanto, genetic engineering loses some of its bite as a threat to society. This highlights the fact that many who are opposed to GMOs may mistrust the technology, but they mistrust its owners even more. In other words, they're more worried about Frankencompany than Frankenfood. Cuba doesn't have that issue under the embargo.

Canadians are Americans too

[Myrrh]

You are aware, of course, that Canada is part of North America?

Re:Canadians are Americans too

[cayenne8]

"You are aware, of course, that Canada is part of North America?"

Nope, close, but, no cigar.

People from Canada = Canadians

People from the United States of America = Americans

People from Mexico = Mexicans.

Now, since we all 'do' live in North America...we could also be referred to more generically as "North Americans"...much like the people further south of us could be termed South Americans generically.

Re:Canadians are Americans too

[elrous0]

Canadians get to call themselves "American" when they put it in their country's name.

-Proud resident of the United States of AMERICA.

Re:Canadians are Americans too

[Myrrh]

Yeah, well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why aren't those who live in the US called UnitedStatsians? Or USians? Yooshians?

Re:Canadians are Americans too

[Anonymous Coward]

Canadians don't want that tainted, tattered name anywhere near them.

You can keep your AMERICA, it sucks major ass.

Re:Canadians are Americans too

[stdarg]

Why do people care about this? The USA is the only country with "America" in the name, so they get to call themselves American. There's no possible confusion.

Re:Canadians are Americans too

[tehcyder]

Canadians get to call themselves "American" when they put it in their country's name.

Yes, because Brazilians can't call themselves "South American" or Czechs "European" or Thais "Asian" can they?

Re:Canadians are Americans too

[elrous0]

Say what you want about America's problems (and God knows one of our biggest problems is sitting in the White House right now, probably playing with Transformers action figures and listening to .38 Special) but at least we don't have to put up with Quebec.

Re:Canadians are Americans too

[elrous0]

They can call themselves anything they want. Whether OTHERS will also call them that is another story.

Re: Blame Cuba

[MightyYar]

While it is completely fair to criticize the US for allowing a place like "Gitmo" to exist, the comparison to Cuba's government is not really fair. The US court system has been slowly reining in the Bush administration, and Guantanamo Bay will soon be closed. While it took way too long for this to occur, Cuba has no such system to protect the rights of its own citizens, much less a bunch of foreigners caught (allegedly) subverting the Cuban government.

Is this legal interpretation correct?

[belmolis]

I question the conclusion here, for two reasons. First, the license that the contributor grants to Red Hat is non-exclusive. If you want your software to be distributable to countries embargoed by the United States, all you have to do is provide it via an additional route. Second, since the hardware is provided by a US source, it is subject to US trade restrictions, so I don't see how restrictions on software further restrict the distribution of OLPCs. If the project can't supply the machines to, e.g., Syria, does it matter if a piece of software cannot be exported to Syria?

Nope, nothing like what you said there

[Anonymous Coward]

I checked all the links (on the first two pages) and none of them said anything remotely like "Cuba is a world leader in biotech". More often it was "we have few resources, so we are creative and efficient."

Link to something that supports your argument please, or admit you can't.

It seems to me that you've bought into a lie and don't realize it.

Also, the next time you are asked for a link, don't be a douche and link to Google. That's just cuntish, and makes it clear you don't have real link. Don't make assertions if you don't have facts to support them.

Re:Good-idiots

[dudestir]

While I agree with some of what you say, infant deaths rates are LOWER in Cuba then the US https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world -factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html Cuba has invested in educating the people. On a trip there last year I required a hospital stay and will clearly state that their health system is well run, funded and staffed. Compare the health related section between Cuba http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/country.cfm?country=CU and the US http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/country.cfm?country=US and it is clear that they while they may do a lot of stuff to the negative of their people, health care is not one of them.

Hmmm....

[dharbee]

"and has been at war every year since its inception."

I'd like to see a source for this please. Please provide a link or admit you're a liar.

Re:Hmmm....

[omfgnosis]

@dharbee, I'm not actually a liar. The US has engaged in military action every year since 1776. The best source (but certainly not the only one) I can offer is On the Justice of Roosting Chickens, a book published by Ward Churchill. The first chapter is his controversial essay about 11 September 2001, and the following chapters are detailed timelines of US military actions since 1776 and US violations of international law since 1948 respectively. Whatever you might think about the essay in the first chapter (I happen to think it's right on), the following chapters are just hard data.

Re:Hmmm....

[st0nes]

Please use the "reply" button.

Re:Hmmm....

[omfgnosis]

Huh? Are you telling me to reply to the person who falsified my quote and is now following me around demanding I admit I lied when I didn't? Sorry, better things to do than feed the troll.

If you look at the guy's posting history, it's obvious he's just as abusive and unprincipled no matter who he's dealing with. I have, as I said, better things to do.

So you admit you were lying then

[dharbee]

"@dharbee, I'm actually a liar. The US has engaged in military action every year since 1776."

"has been at war every year since its inception."

So you admit then that you were lying, because "engaged in military action" is not even remotely near "at war". You made both of the above statements, which one is the lie?

As to your source, it's Ward Churchill. That's all that needs to be said about that.

Re:So you admit you were lying then

[omfgnosis]

I don't think you're qualified to judge the truthfulness of my statements or my source's statements, given the fact that you just altered a quote of what I'd said to say something different. That's all that needs to be said about that.

fanatics in Florida

[Ardipithecus]

now write "AIPAC" fifty thousand times

Stunning Ignorance in US

[fhage]

I think most people don't realize, that in aggregate, you are better off without health insurance

Wow. Perhaps you are trolling, but if not maybe this will literally save your life.

My wife works in health care. People without insurance go without care unless ones life is in immediate danger. Cancers go untreated, limbs do not get re-attached, faces do not get re-constructed, chronic conditions go untreated. The stories she brings home are heart breaking, and tragic.

If health insurance continues to creep up in price, I simply won't pay and I will take my chances

One question. Who will pay when you need life saving treatment, and you can't afford it?

My wife deals with people who expect her and her clinic to work for free, just because they have a "need". Often they drive better cars, and make more money than her, but expect service for free. She's been mistreated so often by patients with unreasonable expectations, I'm bitter. Why should my family suffer when you refuse to pay for your own life saving treatment? When someone treats you (for ethical reasons), and you go bankrupt, they lose. Clinics close, people go without. One car accident, one bacterial infection, one lump is all it will take to make your happy life turn tragic. You think you're losing out at $20/mo for health coverage? What a fool you are.

Re:Stunning Ignorance in US

[Lost Engineer]

people without insurance go without care unless ones life is in immediate danger Correction, poor/irresponsible/both people go without care. Nobody who can pay is turned away. As for the rest, the hospital is already taking a beating paying for their care when they finally do get critical. I'm not saying it's right, but you have to make tough choices in this world. If I have cancer and no insurance, and it's going to take $100,000 to treat me, but I can't beg, borrow, or steal the money, then society has determined that my whole life is not worth $100,000. Tough. Better luck next time.

NIce try liar, but you're caught and you know it

[dharbee]

Is "at war" the same as "engaged in military action"?

Have someone else answer that if it makes you feel better, liar. They'll tell you no too.

As to what I altered, I was simply making your statement accurate. Way to avoid admitting I caught you in a lie.

Stop trying so hard to find excuses and just own up. You'll feel better.

And as far as your "source", here's some knowledge for your ass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill_miscon duct_issues

You "source" is a prove liar too. Two peas in a lying pod you are.

Listen up!

[dcsleeps]

Alright, I don't have a lot of time here but this information should (hopefully) answer some of your questions and set the original poster straight.

1. This has nothing to do with the OLPC Project submitting to the terms of the Fedora Project Individual Contributor License Agreement. It also has NOTHING to do with the GPL. These don't matter, period. The OLPC project is run by Americans, in Cambridge from what I gather. This means that the OLPC project was already subject to US export regulations, regardless of any license agreement or what have you.
2. Yes, the hardware is also subject to US export regulations
3. The Fedora Project Wiki entry for Legal/Export is outdated and inaccurate. For example, Iraq is still listed under "Embargoed Destinations". Iraq is not embargoed (*somehow* that changed when we invaded)
4. There are two US agencies that are important when discussing the Cuba sanctions/embargo. The Department of Commerce and the Treasury Department.
   • Here's a nice 6 page overview of the US embargo of Cuba from the Office of Foreign Assets Control (Treasury). Notice the text stating:
     To whom do these sanctions regulations apply?All U.S. citizens and permanent residents wherever they are located, all people and organizations physically in the United States, and all branches and subsidiaries of U.S. organizations throughout the world
   • And here's a nice overview from the Bureau of Industry and Security (Commerce) discussing exports and reexports to Cuba. Note that you will need to obtain a license from BIS for shipping something like an Xbox or OLPC to Cuba. Also note that there is a general policy of denial in place (meaning it's unlikely that these exports will be authorized by BIS)
5. No, you can't be a "middle man" or you'd be violating US export control regulations. There are these pesky things called General Prohibitions that, you know, "prohibit" certain things. General Prohibition 10 in Part 736 of the Export Administration Regulations states:
   You may not sell, transfer, export, reexport, finance, order, buy, remove, conceal, store, use, loan, dispose of, transfer, transport, forward, or otherwise service, in whole or in part, any item subject to the EAR and exported or to be exported with knowledge that a violation of the Export Administration Regulations, the Export Administration Act or any order, license, License Exception, or other authorization issued thereunder has occurred, is about to occur, or is intended to occur in connection with the item

The US export regulations are the broadest in the world, with more unilateral controls than other other country. I could write a friggin book here, but I'll stop before I ramble any further. Let's just sum it up by saying that this article really isn't news at all and nothing has changed for the OLPC project (in regards to export controls). Microsoft can't ship Windows or an Xbox to Cuba, and the OLPC project won't be selling laptops to the Cuban government unless they get a license for it.

Re:What does your aunt drive?

[LeadSongDog]

Apparently not the interstate ;/)

Bravo!

[Aqua_boy17]

That's one of the most insightful posts I've seen on this topic.

Why aren't the many thousand's of naturalized chinese in the US screaming for an embargo against their homeland? Probably because they realize that it really harms the innocent while it benefits neither side. I wish the Cuban exile community saw it this way. But as many have said already, Big Sugar also has a lot to do with the continued embargo.

Thanks, you made it easy

[dharbee]

This

"Sorry, no."

Proves this

"I suspect your opinion about Americans being assholes has more to do with you than with Americans."

I stopped reading immediately after that first "sentence" because it was clear my assessment was correct, and anything you had to say would be another baseless rant with no real substance.

I'm sure I was right about that too.

Don't talk about responsibility when you have none

[dharbee]

"US citizens are responsible for the actions of their government."

And you are responsible for admitting your lies. I proved in black and white that you are a liar, so why haven't you done the right thing and admitted it?

Right here is the proof, why aren't you taking responsibility for your lies?

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=242723&cid =19680995

Admit your lies please.

Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

*** So, no OLPC for Cuba, Syria and the like. Ever." ***

Good.

On the subject of hypocrisy

[notamisfit]

Just thinking, they got pissed and threw Lansky and buddies out for "exploiting" them during the Batista regime. We haven't exploited them for the past 40+ years and now they're pissed about *that*.

Do export restrictions really affect the XO?

[Mokurai]

Red Hat Fedora Rawhide is certainly available in countries under US embargo. It can be legally exported (or just downloaded) to countries where it can be legally exported/downloaded to these countries. Why would OLPC's distribution be any different, regardless of the Red Hat license? This stuff is all under GPL or some other Free/Open Source license.

This is actually a much more complicated question than the poster makes out. It is true that the US does not permit computer exports to Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, or Syria. (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Pakistan have been removed from the list.) [source: Commerce Dept. Web site] However, it is not necessary to export them from the US in order to get them to those countries. The computers will be made in Shanghai (that is, inside Communist China), by a Taiwanese company, Quanta (which also makes iPods, among other things). I have no idea what the legal status of such products is under US law, nor do I know whether its status under US law even matters.

But suppose OLPC can't sell computers made outside to US to some country. What if China were to take out a manufacturing license to support their 150 million+ children and a few others around the world?

What if the design were put out under an Open Source hardware license?

I don't doubt that there would be a political outcry if XO clones appeared in embargoed countries. Doubtless there would be investigations and all the rest. But actual criminal charges? I don't know, and I don't think you do either, for any random value of "you".

NO

[r_jensen11]

No: If Cuba wants toe embargo lifted, they have to destroy the farmers' lobbyists. Either that, or wait until I run for President in twenty some odd years.

How other than voting?

[tepples]

US citizens are responsible for the actions of their government. I was too young to vote until October 1998. So how can I be responsible for the actions of my government that occurred before January 1999, when the House of Representatives elected in November 1998 took office? And how can I be responsible for the actions of the neoconservative administration that I explicitly voted against? What should I do first to change the direction of the U.S. Government?

Re:How other than voting?

[omfgnosis]

"I was too young to vote until October 1998. So how can I be responsible for the actions of my government that occurred before January 1999, when the House of Representatives elected in November 1998 took office?"

I don't really agree with the cultural assumption that responsibility doesn't exist prior to the age of 18, and exists fully at the age of 18. And I don't think voting is the only (or even primary) way the US government is influenced. Nonetheless, I'd be happy to accept that you weren't responsible to the crimes of the US government before 1999. But it's been eight years since 1999.

"And how can I be responsible for the actions of the neoconservative administration that I explicitly voted against?"

Your vote obviously didn't stop them, that's how. I'm working on the basis of, at the very least, international legal precedent (if not basic human decency), which passed judgement on the whole of the German population following World War II, for having failed in its basic responsibility to curtail the crimes of its government. This is a precedent set primarily by the US, so it should at least apply here.

The judgement didn't say that Germans should have voted the nazis administration out of office, either. The judgement was made with the knowledge that such a thing would have been impossible, and would have been beside the point anyway.

"What should I do first to change the direction of the U.S. Government?"

Whatever it takes.

Re:How other than voting?

[Upphew]

So why Germans must pay to jews? Most of them weren't there to kill jews, you know... http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2002/08/27/german_p ensions020827.html

Re:How other than voting?

[tepples]

"What should I do first to change the direction of the U.S. Government?"

Whatever it takes. What does it take?

Re:How other than voting?

[omfgnosis]

I honestly wish I knew. It's something we (Americans) need to figure out together, rather than shrugging it off, though. But we should do more than just vote, that's for damn sure.

Re:How other than voting?

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Do you live in the USA? Do you pay taxes? Do you obey law? You are responsible for your acts, you are helping.
Have you started a revolution or done something to stop what your government is doing? have you moved out of the states?

Then you are endorsing your government actions.

Re:How other than voting?

[tepples]

have you moved out of the states? To where?

Re:How other than voting?

[omfgnosis]

That's kind of beside the point. The point isn't to flee responsibility, but to address it.

Re:How other than voting?

[Anonymous Coward]

how can I be responsible for the actions of my government

Who knows? But that's the basis of the embargo. Little kids starve for failing to overthrow Castro. It's all their fault.

Vietnam Police Action?

[tepples]

So you admit then that you were lying, because "engaged in military action" is not even remotely near "at war". Are you interpreting "war" in the sense that the U.S. military actions in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq II were not war but "police action"?

Re:Vietnam Police Action?

[dharbee]

I'm not interpreting anything. I don't have to.

Moron said "war" then changed that to "military action" when I called him on his lie.

Interpretation wasn't necessary.

Terrorist?

[halplus00]

When was that? Evidence please.

Except for when...

[tuxgeek]

The exception to never, ever is in the case where haliburton sells goods and services to iran illegally. Cuba does not train and sponsor terrorists but iran does. Go figure...

Michael Moore will fix it

[Anonymous Coward]

with his new film Roger and my Sicko Columbine OLPC is running at Fahrenheit 911

GOOD!

[EmagGeek]

Why should we be giving these terrorist regimes access to technology to help them kill us?

I fail to see the point

[CrankyOldBastard]

It's about 2 mouse clicks and six words to install EToys into a squeak image. I fail to understand the point of this article - EToys is probably being used in Cuba already as it's a great environment to let kids loose in, see http://www.squeakland.org/

OLPC should not be a US project

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly the OLPC project should not be a US one. The US has some of the most foolish embargos. Picking RH is an additional foolishness that would prevent OLPC from global adoption, simply because of the foolishness of the US.

So what

[WindBourne]

First, our states are about the same as your contries. Do you know ALL of the American states AND the Canadian provinces? Does even most Europeans? I seriously doubt that.

Disregarding that, taking one data point (yourself) makes NO sense. If you want to, I can point out all of the NA, SA, Oceania and European (though I do have issues with some of African and Asian; 35 years since studying geography does that). In fact, I would guess that most, if not nearly all, of the ppl on /. can do this (there is a bit of a educated group here).

You say that most Americans do not know the difference between Sweden vs. Switzerland. Actually, I think that most American do KNOW which is Switzerland. I would guess that they are going to mix Sweden and Finland. And at this time, the average American may get wrong a lot of the Eastern EU. One of the issues with Europe is that your borders have been re-drawn so many times (due to WWII/cold war). No doubt the current group of kids are learning it, and my kids will certainly tell me that I mixed up Estonia and Latvia, but they will know.

Castro's pre-revolution wealth

[Crazy Eight]

Gee what a surprise. Castro and Guevara have a prep-school lark to trade Batista for themselves. Whoops! Che is so naive he ends up stuck in Bolivia. Fidel are you there? Over. Fidel?

How many Soviet Nukes could be bought with profits from the Castro familly farm? I'd guess none. But hey, I'm sure Castro's familly have faced economic hardship once "the people" got what was rightfully thiers.

School

[Anonymous Coward]

Goerge W Bush also went to school. I hope it works as well for Cuba as it did for him.

The UK doesn't have such a directive

[Anonymous Coward]

oops.

What may not be done is SOMEONE IN THE US EXPORTING. That isn't banning anyone from exporting so it isn't a license restriction.

I would also point to Windows OSs being available in Cuba. Is MS's EULA illegal? After all, it doesn't forbid sale to Cuba, so it's illegal.

Or are you a retard?

So he should lie like you do?

[dharbee]

"Whatever it takes."

I guess this explains why you think it's ok to lie when you post.

It's not, and you're a liar. I caught you and you ran and hid instead of owning up to your proven lie.

Stop lying, liar.

Cuba == Guantanamo Bay

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, the State Department has been nailing US citizens who have visited Cuba without authorization with very stiff fines.

Could this have anything to do with the US Military using their base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba as an illegal prison? Out of sight, out of mind.

Re: "we're not so bad"...

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting to note that although Americans ranked as the overall 2nd favorite type of tourists, the article gave _not one single reference_ as to why Americans are in fact ***liked***.

AAMOF, the article seemed to skip over just such a reference in any way possible, even preferring to explain instead why some nationalities are disliked.

Huh?

Pardon me, Reuters - your obvious anti-American bias is showing...

Then stop contributing.

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Stop Paying Taxes. Start a revolution. Or move out of the USA.

I Live in Argentina, I Don't vote, since I'm againt the current system. I Don't pay my taxes, and i don't care. I Do something about it, I complain, I Write.

Re:Then stop contributing.

[omfgnosis]

I don't think moving away or otherwise withdrawing from _________ is sufficient, but I don't think it's really harmful either. If all the people who nominally oppose _____________ simply quit participating in it, __________ would definitely have a much harder time functioning.