Attempts to Count Linux Users Remain Pointless

An anonymous reader writes "A great deal of attention is paid to numbers, but rarely does one actually ask what these numbers mean. One problem that many people have been trying to tackle is gauging the extent of use of Free software, including Linux. Questionnaires are not a solution here and neither are statistics, which are usually derived from the wrong data. The following article looks at the various challenges at hand and concludes that the growth rate of Linux is likely to remain an enigma."

Comments

Start counting here

[bruunb]

I, for one, use GNU/Linux and only F/OSS

Re:Start counting here

[growse]

Anyone else? Or shall we approximate the linux userbase size as being "1"?

Re:Start counting here

[Guillersk]

Tree :)

Re:Start counting here

[Mr. Underbridge]

I, for one, use GNU/Linux and only F/OSS

Where shall we mail your trophy?

Re:Start counting here

[kseise]

I have linux installed on all four home computers. Put me down for 4. All happen to be Ubuntu also, if that helps count.

Re:Start counting here

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that is already more than Windows Vista.

Re:Start counting here

[Anonymous Coward]

n++

Re:Start counting here

[Anonymous Coward]

n+=9

Re:Start counting here

[SatanicPuppy]

That's the whole problem. If I count home and work, I have more than 20 linux "servers" of which one is a cluster containing twice that many machines. But I'm the only person who uses them (well, the only person who directly uses them, e.g. logs into them), so really, in terms of users that's just 1...You can't count everyone who goes to a webpage, or uses a bind, ntp, samba, squid, etc service to be a linux user.

That's why it's hard to count. Windows users are easy: it's almost all 1 to 1. I have 1 windows machine, so mark me down for 1 in the windows category as well. You can be even more specific and count windows licenses; this is misleading...My workplace has a great number of unused windows licenses...But it's a good number with documentation behind it, whereas linux can only count support contracts with big linux vendors.

Re:Start counting here

[Anonymous Coward]

I use linux. So that's two, unless I'm just bruunb stuffing the ballot box.

Re:Start counting here

[projektdotnet]

n=$(($n=1))

Re:Start counting here

[EatHam]

What kind of engineer are you? We say the linux userbase it at least one.

Re:Start counting here

[bruunb]

Keep it, I have lots of them

Re:Start counting here

[vimh42]

No no, there are too many to count. All those botnets.

Re:Start counting here

[doti]

I suppose you meant

n=$(( $n + 1 ))

recently I discovered that bash supports this too:

let n=n+1

or even

let n++

Re:Start counting here

[dpiven]

Microsoft Corporation
One Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052-6399

Attn: Steve Ballmer

Re:Start counting here

[Anonymous Coward]

At first I wondered why anyone would speak up. But then I re-read the title and noticed it didn't say "Attempts to Court Linux Users Remain Pointless."

Re:Start counting here

[sexyrexy]

While I agree with most of your post, I don't know about the 1:1 thing for Windows users. I have 4 Windows machines (5 if you count my PDA), one OSX and 2 Linux boxes. I know my father and at least two of my good friends have similar setups. It's rather anecdotal, but it does indeed buck your generalization...

Re:Start counting here

[HermMunster]

This is just more MS FUD masquerading. The number of F/OSS users is very important. Incredibly important and no where near impossible to count. You can get a good estimation simply by looking at the popular distros. Which ones have a tally of how many users they support. You can bet the numbers are incredibly high. Ubuntu estimations are nearly 20 million. You can simply extrapolate from the other distros that are in use world wide and come up with at least 5 times that. That's nearly 100 million users world wide. That's a conservative estimate.

To encourage developers, commercial and otherwise, you need to provide them with numbers. The more you can verify the better off we'll be as users. You want quality games ported to OpenGL? You want applications from developers such as Photoshop? You need to provide numbers. Who out there is willing to kill the hopes of others because you think you should have all FOSS. I want these other products under Linux. Stop messing about and get it together so we all can do that with our computers that we want to do. It sucks that you will take your ideas and limit mine because you think your ideas are pure.

Get them legitimate numbers. Get more numbers. Count all you can. Publish those numbers. Make those numbers known to every segment of society (from mom and pop to big corporate). This is a must. Tell the world the numbers. They are incredibly important to know. The larger the number the better off everyone will be.

You know Microsoft is counting, but the hell with them. We should know our own position so we know where to push, when to push, and how hard. Pushing into markets, into segments, into the home, into schools, everywhere is important. Everyone needs to tell everyone else, their friends, family, acquaintances, the poor, the rich, everyone. Get the numbers out, get the ideas out. Make it happen. Make it happen now. Keep pushing it fast.

Re:Start counting here

[Anonymous Coward]

The number of F/OSS users is very important. Incredibly important and no where near impossible to count. You can get a good estimation simply by looking at the popular distros. Which ones have a tally of how many users they support

No, this is exactly what the article is saying. Counting based on anything like a distribution "support" number is going to give a wildly incorrect answer, especially if you are talking about paid support. We all know there's a lot more Linux users than pay for support.

Then, too, you can't count downloads in any way. If you have 50 Linux workstations behind a NAT device, then without some unique identifier, how can you know that those 50 downloads went to 50 machines? Or, what if there were 150 total downloads over the course of 5 versions of the distro for those 50 machines? Any automated counting could come up with anywhere from 1 to 150 "users" for this situation.

Re:Start counting here

[SatanicPuppy]

Sure, it's not meant to be a universal statement. But most home users have only one computer, and most home users user windows, so the majority of windows users are 1 computer, 1 user.

As opposed to linux, which is most popular in business and among geeks, where the 1 user, 1 computer rule is least likely to hold true.

Re:Start counting here

[raddan]

Who wrote your BIOS?

Re:Start counting here

[Mr Z]

Hmmm... I've got Linux on four machines at home (Ubuntu and RedHat 7.x), but one dual-boots WinXP. Then there's my wife's two Macs that run OSX. And then there's her Win2K work laptop that she uses to connect to Solaris machines at work. And then there's my WinXP work laptop that I use to connect to Linux boxes (RHEL) at work.

So I guess count us as users of pretty much everything?

--Joe

Re:Start counting here

[Mr Z]

...except BSD. But isn't BSD dying? ;-)

Re:Start counting here

[The One and Only]

You know, Linux far transcends the personal computer to the point where asking "how many Linux users are there" is silly and pointless. If your TiVo, the web server you visit on your Mac, your Roomba, and your Linksys router all run Linux, you still aren't really a Linux user. Maybe that's why attempts to count Linux users remain pointless?

Re:Start counting here

[fonik]

With the BSD license's ability for projects to be relicensed by third parties, I think it's safe to say that BSD will always be dying and never be dead. Like some zombie OS, it has been reportedly killed many times but still hungers for code.

COOOOOODE.

Re:Start counting here

[cecil_turtle]

I estimate the Linux userbase somewhere between one and two billion.

Re:Start counting here

[HermMunster]

The count downloads all the time. But I didn't say strickly downloads. What I was saying is get estimates from the likes of the Distros. For instance, they can tell how many IPs with the Linux OS, or how many have provided info for support, etc. It isn't going to be exact. Neither is a count of windows. For instance, there has been more than a few people that have gone from windows to linux. Are you counting them in the count of Microsoft's products?

With browsers we look at how many page hits by any given browser but it really is just an estimation because some people with those same browsers never hit those pages and thus go uncounted.

Re:Start counting here

[Mokurai]

For a remarkably large value of "1". According to One Laptop Per Child http://laptop.org/, it should increase to more than a billion in the next 10 years, for the accepted value of a billion, and an unknown base for the "10".

words from microsoft:

[yourmomisfasterthana]

"Do not attempt to count the number of Linux users, thats impossible, instead, try to realize the truth... there is no Linux" :-P

Re:words from microsoft:

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA:

Well, if you're on the Web, 58.48 percent of all the Web servers you might visit, according to Netcraft's May 2007 Web site survey, are running the Apache Web server. And, guess what Apache runs on about four times out of five? Yes, that's right, Linux. So, if you're a Web user, you're a Linux user.

I can see why you guys have trouble counting...

Re:words from microsoft:

[rolfwind]

While MS may want to lead you to believe that:), I believe there are ways, not to count the users, but to guage a relative amount.

Go to distrowatch, look at the Page Hit Rankings, and then compare it Year to Year.

http://distrowatch.com/index.php?dataspan=2002

To put things into perspective -- so far in 2007, 16th place Kubuntu has slightly higher numbers than the 1st place in 2002 -- Mandrake. And 1st Place, Ubuntu, has 5x the number of hits than Mandrake in 2002. 2003 ranking went up ever so slightly, so I don't think the site became popular overnight.

That is one metric. Not terribly scientific, but indicative of something.

Re:words from microsoft:

[ArsonSmith]

That is one metric. Not terribly scientific, but indicative of something.

That my page hit pumper script is working?

Re:words from microsoft:

[vga_init]

That's true, actually. "Linux" is nothing more than hacker code speak for the bastardization of a quality Microsoft operating system called Xenix, the latest version of Unix (even Apple stole code from Microsoft to make OS X). It was stolen long ago by European communists who do little more than copy capitalist inventions and try to subvert the market by destroying private ownership.

Anyone who uses this socialist junk is anti-American, and you're a fool if you think Linux is a real, quality software project.

Re:words from microsoft:

[disasm]

I've been accused of not being able to interpret sarcasm in the past, so I think I'm going to take this as being sarcasm. If it's not, man you must be a very insightful guy. Hey I got some property in a very nice part of the Atlantic Ocean for sale, are you interested?

Sam

We are all already linux users

[metaphorever]

Maybe it's pointless because we are all already linux users.

Two

[Colin Smith]

World domination is at hand!

hmm.

[apodyopsis]

well I skimmed TFA and conclude we can now expect in these comments:-

(1) a lot of foaming at the mouth rants and statistics from Linux evangelists
(2) some distie bashing thrown in for good measure
(3) the inevitable vista comments and hints about massive marketing campaigns
(4) maybe some mention of PCs shipped with Linux pre-installed
(5) if we are really lucky maybe the odd referenced fact

.. and nobody being better informed at then end of it.

Re:hmm.

[neonmonk]

Er, haven't you heard..

2008 will be the year of the Linux Desktop, so it's all irrelevant now!

Re:hmm.

[fosterNutrition]

You're probably right, but I'm not sure if you're saying that this will happen because of the quality of the article, or the quality of slashdot posters. In either case, the summary/article itself doesn't really help, given the nonsensical statements like

Questionnaires are not a solution here and neither are statistics, which are usually derived from the wrong data. Ah yes, damned statistics; always getting in the way when I'm trying to gather reliable... statistics. And don't get me started on asking questions, that's clearly the worst way to get answers to things I want to know.

Really now, what are they trying to say? They can't actually mean "statistics are useless when trying to gather statistics," can they? And how can there be "wrong data" in a situation like this? Either someone does or does not use Linux. I'm not really a Linux evangelist, but the article sounds like nonsense to me.

Re:hmm.

[kc2keo]

Why should it matter if its so difficult to track GNU/Linux users? I would rather stay anonymous in that fashion. I would hate for my distro once installed to transmit data anonymously to my distros HQ much like M$ does with its WGA crap. When using GNU/Linux I know I have full authority over my system. Using M$ I do not have that freedom. The only thing I dislike about using *nix is that its lacking in popular gaming titles. Not talking about using Cedega its lacking native popular titles and that makes me sad :-( --kc2keo

Re:hmm.

[eln]

You're way off base. All of the people in my department at work run Linux, so clearly Linux is already dominating the desktop. The fact that my department is made up of entirely Linux sysadmins should not take anything away from this single statistically relevant sample. Of course, we all run Red Hat because Gentoo is for masochists and Ubuntu has a stupid name. Sure, Microsoft's brainwashing^Wmarketing may lead you to believe that Vista is all the rage, but everyone knows it's a memory hog that barely runs on most supercomputers. Especially now with Linux being pre-installed on so many desktops, Microsoft is bound to go bankrupt any day now.

Also, did you know that the longest recorded frog jump was 33 feet 5.5 inches? Amazing!

Re:hmm.

[lessermilton]

We deal in Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics --Statiticians everywhere!

Re:hmm.

[c_woolley]

Oh Yeah, well....

1 Trillion-Gazlillion people use Linux.
Which sucks, since I hate Linux.
Vista rules and no other computer OS will come close until MS creates a new one.
No PC manufacturer will ever ship a Linux based peice of junk.
Go to http://www.vbrad.com/pf.asp?p=articles/art_linux_s ucks.htm for more information.

There, I think I covered all of your points.

Re:hmm.

[$RANDOMLUSER]

Your "Why Linux Sucks" link is from April 2003. Is that the best you can do?

Re:hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot,
As with any discussion on any kind of poll, Diebold machines should eventually be brought up.

Re:hmm.

[Jerry]

And your NOT ranting and bashing?

You have one thing right: no one is better informed after reading your rant.

Re:hmm.

[Phoenix666]

I've been skimming these TFAs on Slashdot for close to 10 years now and conclude that we can expect a meta-comment that will try to categorize all subsequent comments.

Ha! I out-meta-commented you, so neener-neener! :-)

Re:hmm.

[russ1337]

>>> I would hate for my distro once installed to transmit data anonymously to my distros HQ much like M$ does with its WGA crap.

Then you, and only you, might want to think twice about installing this package:

POPULARITY CONTEST
When you install this package, it sets up a cron job that will anonymously submit statistics about your most used packages periodically to the developers. This information helps us make decisions such as which packages should be promoted and so be in standard installs.
Homepage: http://popcon.ubuntu.com/

Re:hmm.

[pjr.cc]

Speaking as a person who has to go out on site as a consultant and recommend the best product for the job (regardless of personal bias) - and yes, that includes the places that are MS-only where i find myself saying "yeah, sql server 2005 is briliant", or "yeah, you should really get ms systems server op's center". I do believe things are changing somewhat. It started about 6-9months ago, i'd go out to a traditional windows company and they'd be running a samba server with apache where there used to be IIS and win 2k3.

Then a friends company (not a small one mind you) went off to do a linux-on-the-desktop study as alot of their windows agreements were about to become eol so to speak. At first I thought this was a bargaining tool to get cheaper software, but I was surprised to find that not only was it about replacing the desktop but also the server side functionality. It turned out they'd started looking at linux desktops because they'd managed to gain some linux servers to replace most costly machines (some windows, but alot were aix or solaris) - interestingly, alot of the now-linux server hardware are sun x86'ers running centos. As a result they took on some linux types to administer them, and it grew - they replaced a few non-essential file servers. changed a few mail gateways to linux. Moved proxies to squid. As their CTO put it "i was suddenly surrounded by linux and didn't realise it until i looked at the balance sheets, all we are paying for is hardware and alot of the things we are using linux for are internally grown and maintained. I started to think we weren't paying for licenses were we should be". One of the things that did take him by supprise is that half his IT department by this time had switched to a linux desktop and used mail thru imap or some such (some were using windows still thru vmware player or from a terminal server running outlook). Apparently if you pxe boot off alot of the networks, you'll get a pxelinux menu that allows you to boot various things like dsl or install a customized ubuntu (though i didn't see that myself). I know they're also running some systems with RHEL too because they "feel good" to know they have support.

To sum it up, i was quite shocked. 12 months ago I was feeling "unix was coming to an end" and feeling quite disappointed by that, but I feel quite elated by what i've seen lately - Especially so in Australia where linux has had a really tough time of it.

Having said all that, i think the author wasn't just referring to linux users but also the users of FOSS replacements for commercial applications (like open office, gimp, etc). I can't say i've seen a tonne of that myself, but its not uncommon to see things like gaim, firefox, jedit, eclipse - smaller things really.

It will be very interesting to see what the next 12months brings us.

Re:hmm.

[smokestacker]

yea, but don't you have to opt into that??

Re:hmm.

[rustalot42684]

Note that that package is not installed by default; and to have it installed during the initial install requres gouing into a small submenu. The only people who have that installed (I do) are those who choose to install the package.

Re:hmm.

[russ1337]

>>> yea, but don't you have to opt into that??

Yep. That is what makes it so dangerous... you can actually install this OMGWTF anonymous reporting spyware yourself! /sarcasm.
seriously though, I think I recall knopmyth had installed by default - not sure.

Anyway, I do have popularity-contest installed on all my machines because I want the apps I use represented in the chance they gain more support upstream.

Re:hmm.

[xtracto]

So... the meme has changed, instead of "This is the year of Linux Desktop" now we have "Next year will be the year of Linux Desktop".

I'll keep preparing for it!

Re:hmm.

[eMbry00s]

Browse at higher thresholds. Read articles a day late, but keep an eye on the RSS-feed for ultra-important looking stuff.

This message was brought to you by your friendly internet painkiller.

Re:hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the reasons that Linux users hate Microsoft stem from November 2001, so he's already doing better than Slashdot in general...

Re:hmm.

[moosesocks]

Agreed. I've been a unix admin for a long time now, but only in the past few months have I started to use a Linux (Ubuntu) desktop full-time.

I'm amazed by how much it's matured in the past year alone. The big hurdles to overcome are, as you mentioned, OpenOffice (which, frankly sucks) and the GIMP (which, in addition to needing a new name, needs to replicate a few additional bits of photoshop before it becomes viable).

In an office environment, as long as the 'main' application that the user works in is supported on Linux, the rest of the supporting apps are already there. Gnome and XFCE have come an amazingly long way. Firefox, as we all know is an excellent browser on any platform, and KHTML isn't half-bad either. Apps like Pidgin, Nautilus, and AbiWord are all mature and are perfectly usable.

It depends on your definition.

[CaptainPatent]

A "Linux user" could be anything from a hardcore Gentoo-compiling mad man of a Linux user to somebody who uses a phone or other device which has embedded Linux. I for one dual boot so for purposes of this attempt at a survey am I half of a linux user? I use several devices with embedded Linux distros so am I 80% Linux user? Does the device need to be capable of browsing to a webpage or (as is cliche on /.) does it just have to run Linux?

Re:It depends on your definition.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you don't care. The important figure is the installed base: how many machines in any given class are running Linux? Preferably, you want to be able to break that down into different distributions, too.

Re:It depends on your definition.

[LWATCDR]

Well lets start counting every one of the Linksys routers that that ran Linux and all the Tivos ever sold.
Then throw all the NSLU users and goodness knows what other little device that used Linux.
Now for fun throw in everybody that uses Google :)
Everybody uses Linux.

Re:It depends on your definition.

[xtracto]

A "Linux user" could be anything from a hardcore Gentoo-compiling mad man of a Linux user to somebody who uses a phone or other device which has embedded Linux..

That is very true. I think the first step in measuring something is defining /exactly/ what do you want to measure. I could argue that /everyone/ is using Linux each time they go to www.google.com or www.yahoo.com or one of the thousands of servers running Linux. But I guess when referring to "running linux" articles usually refer to desktop computers and about using Ubuntu, Mandriva, Linspire, Xandros or any of the very user-friendly Linux distributions. How can we measure that?, I am certain that you can not get the *exact* number but you can take a sample via telephone poll for example. I am no expert on that but I know there *are* mechanisms developed for polling and other kinds of population data gathering .

Re:It depends on your definition.

[mcrbids]

A "Linux user" could be anything from a hardcore Gentoo-compiling mad man of a Linux user to somebody who uses a phone or other device which has embedded Linux.

A point that is not actually made in TFA. I was talking with my father-in-law the other day, and we were discussing my software-engineering job, and that I use Linux preferentially simply because it's so much more reliable and "commercial grade" despite it's being free.

He announces to me that "Well, that's all fine and dandy, but I'm never going to bother learning that...". So I pointed to the Dish DVR under his TV and the Linksys router next to his Windows PC, and indicated that he was already using it more than he was using Windows!

This is a point that TFA didn't cover at all. The desktop is losing its dominant position.

Re:It depends on your definition.

[goarilla]

i think they mean your preferred desktop, the one you use the most!

Re:It depends on your definition.

[westlake]

"Well, that's all fine and dandy, but I'm never going to bother learning that...". So I pointed to the Dish DVR under his TV and the Linksys router next to his Windows PC, and indicated that he was already using it more than he was using Windows!

He may have been using Linux but he sure as heck wasn't learning Linux.

The desktop is losing its dominant position.

To what, a Router? You could say with equal sense - and nonsense - that the desktop PC was losing ground to the Microwave Oven.

Re:It depends on your definition.

[Grax]

It definitely does depend on the purpose of the research. From the perspective of a kernel developer, every single linux device counts.

However, if you are concerned about whether or not you need to be concerned how your web page renders in Konqueror or Apache on Linux, then those kind of users count.

If you are releasing a game on Linux then you would be concerned with how many users are running a system capable of running that game.

Re:It depends on your definition.

[a_nonamiss]

the desktop PC is losing ground to the Microwave Oven
Very true. But with the advent of Intel's Core processor line, they don't run nearly as hot as they used to. It now takes me over three minutes to make Minute Rice on my PC. And I thought technology was supposed to take us forward!

Re:It depends on your definition.

[himurabattousai]

Being a Linux user v. being a Windows user is not a mutually exclusive condition. There are things that Windows does better (like games and multimedia creation), and things that Linux does better (everything else). Perhaps I'm a bit naive because I used WinXP until recently, but I figure that if you're computer runs with the penguin, you're a Linux user. If it runs on glass (maybe that's why Windows is so fragile......), you're a Windows user. It's as simple as that.

Re:It depends on your definition.

[mcrbids]

He may have been using Linux but he sure as heck wasn't learning Linux.

But, for his purposes, he was learning Linux. You think that knowing a few BASH commands means you "know Linux" - or did you know that BASH is perfectly acceptable on BSD Unix, or MacOSX? Really, very few people who "know Linux" know anything more than a few bash commands and the location of files on their fav distro. Which isn't Linux at all - it wouldn't be hard to replace the actual "Linux" part of a RedHat or Ubuntu distro with a BSD or Mach kernel - the only thing that would change perceptibly for the end-user is driver/hardware support and associated commands.

The desktop is losing its dominant position. To what, a Router? You could say with equal sense - and nonsense - that the desktop PC was losing ground to the Microwave Oven.

Microwave ovens don't process information. Routers do. And he was using the router. My personal home router is an old P3 running Linux. I log into it rarely. So what makes his Linux router different than mine, other than he uses the Linksys UI to administer his router, and I use iptables? Sure, he wasn't using BASH - but as stated above, that's not Linux. Neither is gcc, or tex, or vi, emacs, or any of that. So, in a strict sense, you really don't "know" Linux, either unless you are a kernel hacker and can discuss the various forms of *alloc knowingly. (I can't, and I'm a "Linux User" of the RedHat camp, though I'm smart enough to realize that it's not the "Linux" part that matters much other than the "as reliable as gravity and POSIX compliant" part)

Since you also only know a small really part of your Linux distro, who are you to decide that the smaller part my father-in-law knows is "not Linux"?

Re:It depends on your definition.

[teh_chrizzle]

I for one dual boot so for purposes of this attempt at a survey am I half of a linux user? I use several devices with embedded Linux distros so am I 80% Linux user? Does the device need to be capable of browsing to a webpage or (as is cliche on /.) does it just have to run Linux?

rather than count a person as a "linux user" or a "windows user" i suggest we adopt an OS usage classification system similar to the kinsey scale. in your case you would be a 3 :-)

Re:It depends on your definition.

[Anonymous Coward]

"So I pointed to the Dish DVR under his TV and the Linksys router next to his Windows PC, and indicated that he was already using it more than he was using Windows!"

True. Somebody (an Amiga user) once said to me was what Linux needed to take off, was it's own platform, and he was right. Other than web servers, Linux is really making it's mark in anything that has an embedded microprocessor more powerful than a PIC.

Thats the beauty of open source. It's not tied down to one CPU platform. You can re-compile the source code for another processor. You can't do this with "closed source" like Windows. This is where Microsoft will lose out, as more appliances become more intelligent and feature packed. In all likely hood, these devices wont be running Intel CPUs.

Re:It depends on your definition.

[Killer Gentoo]

One would assume that in the absense of any explaination otherwise the literal definition of "Linux" User is the one we are interested in, essentially anyone who uses GNU/Linux, on any device, whether they are aware of it or not. In that case it's pretty damn prevalent.

Additionally, is anyone who owns no computer or dvr or cell phone or anything of the sort, but who still occasionally uses some ATM's, POSes, computers at work running GNU/Linux, etc, "Linux" Users?

Is anyone who browses a website hosted on a GNU/Linux system a "Linux" User?

Looking at it this way it's not a huge stretch to say that nearly 100% of the populace of any industrialized country is a Linux User.

(fyi, you're probably half-joking, but i find that Gentoo need not be hardcore and for only mad men unless one installs stage1, it was my very first distro, and is not terribly difficult for a noob, as long as they have access to Online Gentoo documentation (which is awesome), and Gentoo Wiki, and Gentoo Forum.)

I think

[Jaaay]

estimates are reasonably accuarate from most studies I've seen. Linux is a very big niche right now in the OS desktop market and a lot bigger in the server market. You'll never get accurate statistics because one of the reason linux spreads so fast is it's available everywhere and can just be downloaded without hassle and a lot of different distros from a lot of different people, a very good guess is all you'll ever get.

Re:I think

[Anonymous Coward]

"A very big niche"? I think someone needs to explain the meaning of "niche" to you.

Re:I think

[vgullotta]

Well, I think a very good guess is all anyone is actually trying to get, isn't it? I don't think the attempts were to say 3,683,296 people are using it, but more to say some percentage of the market is using it.

Firefox

[UbuntuDupe]

I'm going to offer the same solution I did for counting Firefox users:

1) Require a national ID number to download any Linux distro, and validation of ownership of this number through an in-person meeting with the local authorities.

2) Have the software "phone home" that it's actually being used, when it's used.

3) Close the source so that 2) can be facilitated.

4) Made the ID numbers and contact information in 1) publicly available so anyone can audit the official count of users.

There, done, you've got everyone counted. Wasn't that easy?

Re:Firefox

[Timesprout]

How about we just ask for a show of hands.

Re:Firefox

[Anonymous Coward]

A random sample survey is often more accurate than a full-blown census.

Re:Firefox

[griffjon]

Seriously, though, the article seemed to focus on all the possible ways Linux might be being undercounted - proxies/NATs, installation of multiple systems from one downloaded CD, bittorrent distribution, spoofed HTTP headers, being counted under "unknown"

I call bullshit. Most of these also apply to Windows, the main advantage in counting windows being "Genuine Advantage" Still, my workplace has a MS site license and is NATted; are we fully and accurately counted? What about global piracy rates of Windows lowering their official numbers?

The real problem here is that there's both a lack of precision and accuracy. Accuracy is getting the actual right number - sure, the article reminds us all of the reasons we'll never get this (nor will Microsoft, though Apple might have better luck now that they're back to being the only HW manufacturer). What we need to focus on is precision - deciding on a cross-platform close to valid measure, and apply that blindly. Will it be accurate? Probably not, but what we need is precise and fair.

Re:Firefox

[Aladrin]

installation of multiple systems from one downloaded CD, bittorrent distribution,

Most of these also apply to Windows,

QFT.

As a side note, I've always felt the precision vs accuracy thing was a bit odd. What good is one without the other? Being precise and innacurate is pointless because you -know- the number is probably wrong, but it's always the same wrong. Being imprecise and accurate is pointless because your numbers are right, but you don't know what they mean. (They're -right-, but right for what?)

No, instead, you need both. You need the accuracy to get good data, and precision to guarantee that all the data can be measured against the other data.

Re:Firefox

[griffjon]

Are we just counting legal windows copies? That makes it a lot easier, but also a much smaller number...

Re:Firefox

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad that non of that crap will ever be done to Linux users. Microshaft only.

Re:Firefox

[mwlewis]

Depends on how you want to use the data. For instance, if you're just interested in seeing if something is changing (i.e., trends), precision alone may be adequate.

Re:Firefox

[A_Non_Moose]

How about we just ask for a show of hands.

(Editor's note: for those of you viewing pr0n at home, just a show of hand will suffice)

Or how about:

(Drill Sgt.): Alright maggots, COUNT OFF:

(thousands/millions of linux users): ONE!

Dismissed! Thanks for coming.

(Ed note: for those of you still viewing pr0n at home, don't take that literally. Please.)

Re:Firefox

[roman_mir]

5) I mean, what are you, a prophet?

Re:Firefox

[Chris Burke]

As a side note, I've always felt the precision vs accuracy thing was a bit odd. What good is one without the other?

Precision and accuracy are measures, not binary switches, and how much of each you need depends on the application.

For example, machine guns can get away with good accuracy and terrible precision, because by firing a large number of rounds you can ensure that some strike the target, and in fact the scattering effect of an imprecise weapon is an advantage. Whereas for a sniper rifle precision is of the utmost importance, while accuracy is less so since you can adjust the sights to account for the innacuracy, but only if the error is consistant as in precise.

So it goes with data analysis. If you're analyzing a large block of data and are interested in trends, you can get away with less precision if you are very accurate since the average value will be spot on (that being what accuracy means). If you are conducting smaller scale experiments, precision as in repeatability will be more important than accuracy.

Certainly you can't have neither at all, but you do need to measure them seperately and decide based on your application whether you have enough of both.

Full article text [print]

[Anonymous Coward]

http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/print.php/36 87616

Doesn't really say anything, but here you go.

Not possible

[jshriverWVU]

As long as you can get linux from kernel.org compile and make your own distro, download from a myriad of distros, multiple installs both in hardware and in vm's, and people single people using multiple versions it's really not possible to get a valid number on how many computers are actually running linux.

Plus are you talking about just Server/desktop? If you count the millions of embedded devices that run gnu/linux I'm sure it would be considered the worlds most popular OS. It's all in how you want to swing the numbers.

Re:Not possible

[shird]

Well you could take a look at the number of downloads of the most popular distros (eg ubuntu) from their primary download sites, and thn extrapolate from there. Its true that only a fraction of people running Linux will download that particular distro from that particular source; but as long as that fraction is relatively constant, you can still measure growth.

eg, you can extrapolate that Linux adoption has doubled if ubuntu downloads have doubled, even if you don't have the full figures.

Re:Not possible

[indiejade]

Here is part of the problem, as mentioned in the article:

For example, data gathered by Web sites neglects to identify computers that are operated behind proxies, or even Squid ... In fact, that certain Web sites were designed to reject access from every Web browser other than Internet Explorer. As a result, many Linux users are forced to pretend (by altering HTTP headers) that they use a typical Windows setup. This is known as spoofing or forging and it is a matter of convenience.

Darn those proxy servers being all. . . convenient and whatnot.

Re:Not possible

[$RANDOMLUSER]

No, it's not a "convenience". It's a workaround for knucklehead site designers.

Re:Not possible

[donaldm]

I used to spoof my browser but don't do it anymore. If I end up at a site that requires Microsoft IE I don't care I go elsewhere, however I know that just by doing this I have left information to say that that a non IE browser has tried to connect and they have just lost a potential customer. If enough people did this then maybe the site's management and web designers would get the message. IMHO if you feel that a site is not supporting your browser then don't use that site. If that site is a banking institution then change banks, after all this attitude from your bank shows how much they value you as a customer. You may actually save money, still it is your call.

Where I work it is mandatory that all internal web designs support both IE and Firefox. When this started we use to see Firefox break often but after a while and some complaining we are now seeing IE break as our web designers stick to web standards with minor tweaking for Firefox but a major pain for IE.

We even have a work policy allowing the user to have Linux on the desktop providing they can do their work. Some have taken this up but unfortunately this will take time since management has not come up with recommended distributions. What slows down adoption is the fact that there is a considerable amount of Microsoft centric software that make a compleat switch difficult. A dual boot is possible but from my experience it is far to easy to backslide back to MS Windows. For my home laptop I only have Fedora 7 on it so I cannot revert back to MS Windows and it does everything I want except for playing the latest Games for MS Windows. Still that is what I have a PS3 and Gamecube for since I have never been that interested in PC games.

Re:Not possible

[Lord of Hyphens]

By the way, building Linux from Scratch is a long, long, long procedure. DIY distro mostly teaches you to appreciate the work that goes into a distro's design.

Re:Not possible

[jshriverWVU]

LFS is a lot of fun, I've done it twice now. Once when it first came out a couple years ago, and again recently. I'd like to figure out how live distro's work so you can mkisofs the LFS system and boot from a DVD. Guessing it has something to do with CLOOP and init.d wackiness :)

Re:Not possible

[linuxrocks123]

> If you count the millions of embedded devices that run gnu/linux I'm sure it would be considered the worlds most popular OS. It's all in how you want to swing the numbers.

Actually, if you count embedded OSes VxWorks is the most popular OS in the world.

A good slashdot poll

[Anonymous Coward]

A good slashdot poll is all we need.

Those are very accurate and representative.

Re:A good slashdot poll

[rubycodez]

and we'll conclude 18% of the world uses the CowboyNeal Microthreaded Kernel fork of Planet Nine

Well, duh.

[evanbd]

It might not be entirely pointless to try, but I'm reasonably convinced of two things: I don't care (and don't need to) about the exact numbers, and it's growing.

I don't care largely because the software meets *my* needs. That's the most important thing to me. An assurance that it will continue to do so is also nice, and there are clearly a lot of people developing for it. I'm not worried on that front. People who have a big investment in *other people* using Linux (especially when said other people aren't developers) confuse me. (Well, except when they're trying to sell Linux software / services.)

It's growing. I can't tell you how much, but I can offer the anecdotal evidence that the responses I get to "I run Linux" have changed over the past few years. It's not always "What's that?" anymore. It's not uncommon to get questions about it in response -- people want to know how well it works, whether it runs the same software as Windows, etc. I just answer their questions and am polite and friendly about it.

Re:Well, duh.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just answer their questions and am polite and friendly about it.

What kind of evangelism is that? You should browbeat them into submission and threaten them with eternal damnation in the pits of Redmond if they don't convert!

Re:Well, duh.

[Anonymous Coward]

I always wondered: how are people that use FreeBSD, Solaris and other desktop *NIXes counted? Are they grouped into Linux (I feel like they should be) or into Other/Don't know group?

For what it's worth, a recent study on a CA campus based on self-reporting during the network MAC registration gave the following results: 80% Windows, 10% Apple/Mac, 4% linux, rest Don't know/Other.

Re:Well, duh.

[evanbd]

Well, "Other" and "Don't Know" clearly shouldn't be grouped together.

Re:Well, duh.

[morgan_greywolf]

I just answer their questions and am polite and friendly about it.

What kind of evangelism is that? You should browbeat them into submission and threaten them with eternal damnation in the pits of Redmond if they don't convert!

Nah. I just round all the Windows-using heretics up and burn them at the stake every so often.

Re:Well, duh.

[jayp00001]

Or the number of linux users is shrinking as I have paying clients who thought they were going to save money installing Linux dumping it in favor of Windows. I also get the "What about Linux" questions so the awareness is growing but I'm not to sure about the userbase. I think alot more people have played with it though. I wouldn't call them users since they rarely actually use it for anything.

Re:Well, duh.

[holomorph]

I agree for the most part: I don't care that much because it meets my needs. . .except when it doesn't *because* relatively few people are using it.

People care that other people start using linux because it would put pressure on hardware manufacturers to make their devices linux compatible, or software companies to make their software work on linux (and I'm mostly talking about games here).

There are many more example of where more widespread adoption would increase the likelihood of things working smoother for me. So I care for those reasons, and because, well, I'm a lot happier using Linux so I'd like to share it with others who may not have had the chance to discover Linux yet.

I have an idea

[duncanmhor]

Perhaps some kind of central server to keep track of who's using Linux? It could be called Linux Legitimate Benefit...

Re:I have an idea

[blindd0t]

No no, you wouldn't want Linux to violate yet another Microsoft patent! (being facetious, of course)

couldn't you just

[oliverthered]

Take a sample of 10000 people / companies.
Ask them if they use Linux of not
Extrapolate the results.

Seems to work when there counting all kinds of other things that don't have a direct method of counting them.

Re:couldn't you just

[obergfellja]

yeah u could. but how true are these numbers? would the demographic be true for all areas?

Re:couldn't you just

[UbuntuDupe]

I want to know if it's even possible to do a good, statistically-valid survey anymore.

How would you do it? Call people up? Sorry, that excludes all the people who use only VoIP or cell phones, because you can't call them. So, you know that your survey is already limited to mouth-breathers who still use POTS and talk to survey people.

Am I going out on a limb to say that that class of people has markedly different charasteristics than those outside of it, especially on Linux?

Re:couldn't you just

[harlows_monkeys]

Yes, you could do that. But it would give you results consistent with all the other counting methods, and so it must be flawed too. :-)

The gist of the article seems to be that no counting method is perfect and therefore gives you no useful information. In fact, an imperfect counting method can still give some information, and the information from independent methods can be combined. This is done all the time in science, for instance. Does the original author think that marine biologists get counts of fish populations by counting every single fish in the ocean?

Re:couldn't you just

[Vancorps]

How many people know they're using Linux on their phones? Do they know Linux runs a lot of DVRs? Do those numbers even count? The problem with counting Linux users is everyone is technically a Linux user. Do we then just count Linux desktop users? Is that number significant in any way?

Just a few honest questions here. You won't find much in the way of linux desktop OS users although their numbers are indeed growing. At what rate I have no idea as I believe that is hard to measure given.

Re:couldn't you just

[Surt]

Actually, the long term evidence on sampling is pretty bad. Sampling gets stuff pretty wrong, usually due to difficult to foresee flaws in the sampling methodology.

Re:couldn't you just

[harlows_monkeys]

When waiting in line at a movie theater, ask people.

When in line at the supermarket, ask people.

When waiting to pick up your kids at daycare, strike up a conversation about computers with the other parents, and find out what they use. Or ask other parents at the next PTA meeting.

Ask others at your church or coven.

At the next meeting of your model rocketry club or RC airplane club, find out what people are using.

Next time you are at BestBuy buying blank CDs, or a thumb drive, or anything else in the computer section, say "I wonder if this works with Linux?" when several other customers can overhear you, and see if you get anyone offering advice.

Take a peek at the laptops when you walk through a coffee shop with an active wifi hotspot user population.

Almost everyone, almost everyday, encounters plenty of other computer users in contexts that won't be biased toward a particular operating system, providing an opportunity for a little informal polling.

Re:couldn't you just

[TheMeuge]

Any major website, such as Google, Amazon, Ebay, etc... should have this information at hand... I would say that the percentage of google users that use linux is a good indication of the percentage of computer users that use Linux.

Re:couldn't you just

[Otter Escaping North]

When waiting in line at a movie theater, ask people. When in line at the supermarket, ask people. When waiting to pick up your kids at daycare, strike up a conversation about computers with the other parents, and find out what they use. Or ask other parents at the next PTA meeting. Ask others at your church or coven.

Can't wait to see the results:

• Windows - 48%
• Internet Explorer - 18%
• Dell - 15%
• It's a PC - 9%
• Mac - 6%
• Firefox - 2%
• Linux - 2%

Re:couldn't you just

[jZnat]

Might not be the best website to ask. Since they seem to ignore the fact that Konqueror and Safari are extremely alike (both based on the same codebase, but forked), Konqueror users need to spoof their user agent as Safari on Mac OS X, and that's the default behaviour in most Konqueror installations. Considering KDE is the most popular desktop environment, that could skew results a bit (although there are probably a lot of KDE users who use Firefox or Opera instead).

Re:couldn't you just

[Anonymous Coward]

When waiting to pick up your kids at daycare, strike up a conversation about computers with the other parents, and find out what they use. Or ask other parents at the next PTA meeting.

Sure, I bet most of them won't even know what an operating system is. You'd be better off asking the kids.

Re:couldn't you just

[westlake]

So, you know that your survey is already limited to mouth-breathers who still use POTS and talk to survey people.
Am I going out on a limb to say that that class of people has markedly different charasteristics than those outside of it, especially on Linux?

Nope.

They are the men and women who will be electing the next President of the United States while the Geek stands by and whines about the way things were meant to be.

So long as the Linux elitist shows such contempt for the masses, it is a perfectly safe bet that he will never win the masses.

Re:couldn't you just

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably, and I'm sure they'd just love to hand over valuable marketing data like that for free!

Re:couldn't you just

[CrossChris]

Take a sample of 10000 people / companies.

Problem is that it varies radically thoughout the world. On a recent trip to China, the only Windows machines I saw were on an airline check-in desk (and they'd all crashed)! Trips to India, Sri Lanka and Indonesia recently revealed very few Windows machines in use. A survey in those regions would show Windows usage at under 5%!

Game Over, Microsoft!

PS SYstems

[obergfellja]

You could count the Playstation 2 and Playstation 3 systems sold so far.

Re:PS SYstems

[friedman101]

Or Tivos

Re:PS SYstems

[Orange Crush]

By that logic, then you might as well count every computer sold. The fact that a PS2 and PS3 *can* run Linux has little to do with how many actually will.

It's going to be tough.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you a Linux "user" when:

1) Your personal desktop is pure Linux?
2) Your desktop is a dual boot Win32/Linux machine where you use Windows 95% of the time?
3) You never use Linux at home, but do at work?
4) You never use Linux except for forensic work?
5) No personal computers are Linux based, but you use the Linux Router Project instead of a consumer product?
6) You occasionally put out a Knoppix disk for yucks?
7) No computer or router uses Linux, but you are running Yellow Dog on your PS3?

It's not all that easily quantifiable.

Re:It's going to be tough.

[Anonymous Coward]

1) yes
2) yes
3) yes
4) yes
5) yes
6) no
7) yes

seemed easy to me

Ah, an Onion-esk headline

[starseeker]

That's a good way to start a Monday :-).

Actually, it's not so much that they are pointless - just that they are useless. There is a point to knowing how many Linux boxes are out there (demographic studies, confidence in support longevity as a function of install base, etc.) But most known techniques for counting remain useless.

To be honest, this might be just as well. Any technology that COULD count successfully all the Linux boxes out there would be a bit scary - many people probably don't WANT anyone to be able to know what they are running. (OK so nmap can probably figure out anyway...)

Large scale counts like this are a difficult proposition - the only things that approaches being successful in this respect are probably automobile registration systems, census systems, and the tax system - in other words, massive systems with compulsary reporting for every existing component member.

Now, of more interest might be to work with the BSA for a while (or someone else who has the authority to open random IT doors at random) and do an anonymous study of deployment percentages at random under guise of a random license check or soemthing. Probably (hopefully!) not legal but it would be a way to get statistically meaningful results if the sample was chosen well.

Re:Ah, an Onion-esk headline

[kebes]

Any technology that COULD count successfully all the Linux boxes out there would be a bit scary - many people probably don't WANT anyone to be able to know what they are running.

Well there is a very old and very well-tested "technology" that could determine the number of Linux users, and all without invading privacy, or installing software on people's computers. It's called: "statistical surveys."

Yes, surveys are imperfect. They have error bars. However if the sample size is big enough, they give a reasonably correct result. Moreover the error bars can be estimated based on sample size and analyzing the stats. You don't have to count every single Linux box to get a statistically significant result. So, really, it would be quite easy to get a reasonable estimate of the number of Linux users: do various rigorous surveys (by "rigorous" I mean truly randomized studies, conducted by trusted sources, not a voluntary web-poll), and check the results.

Obtaining this information is not impossible. It would, however, cost some money, and to date no one has felt it worth the effort to spend the money to find out. But it would certainly be possible to do.

(P.S.: Does anyone have a rough idea how much it would cost to fund such a survey? Some of us are keen to be able to go to hardware vendors and say "if you do not support this OS you are ignoring X % of the computer market", using accurate stats. How much donated money would be required to fund such a survey? Perhaps some university could be coaxed into carrying out a national survey?)

Re:Ah, an Onion-esk headline

[topherhenk]

I would think the problem is getting the error bars small enough to show those who use Linux. Looking at the comments posted already we are talking around 1-3% (optimistically). Most surveys I have seen have error bars that large. Thus permitting those vendors to discount the survey.

Re:Ah, an Onion-esk headline

[Anonymous Coward]

The dutch tax administration is actually counting these figures. In The Netherlands, the tax office releases each year an application which helps filling in your tax deductions. Most households in the netherlands who own a computer use it. Now, for the last few years they've released it their tax-app for Windows, Mac and Linux, and each year they publish how many times the tax-app is downloaded per platform; here's the link for last year's figures:

In dutch:
http://automatiseringgids.sdu.nl/ag/nieuws/nieuws/ toon_nieuwsbericht.jsp?di=335745

English translation (Yahoo babelfish):
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done &tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fautom atiseringgids.sdu.nl%2Fag%2Fnieuws%2Fnieuws%2Ftoon _nieuwsbericht.jsp%3Fdi%3D335745&lp=nl_en&btnTrUrl =Translate

Re:Ah, an Onion-esk headline

[Jerry]

So, Linux use is up 129% from last year, to 0.1155%.

One thing is for sure... the Dutch will never be able to keep any secrets.

Re:Ah, an Onion-esk headline

[value_added]

Actually, it's not so much that they are pointless - just that they are useless.

I'd prefer that an operating system, or the software we run from day to day be fairly generic and taken for granted, but we live in a world where the average person believes software, if not downloaded on those rare occasions from some obscure website, is available in shrink-wrapped packages only. And then from a vendor who, we assume, will support that software (the corrollary being that everyone who writes software makes a living by selling it). The Diebold fiasco is evidence of this. Instead of turning to the academia, for example, to examine the issues, the politicians we elected turned to a commercial vendor.

Also, given that we live in a competitive world, things often need to be evaluated with respect to their competition. If it doesn't have numbers, isn't marketed with glossy brochures or offered for sale in a shiny package, it can't possibly be of much value, right? At its most basic, that's just human nature. No one needs reminding that Microsoft exterts powerful monopoly control over the entire industry. Competing on merits alone is never enough.

So while I'd like to agree that numbers don't matter, using a We Know Better or We Don't Care About Such Things set of arguments or postures to dismiss what huge numbers of people are doing or buying seems a bit naive. And it doesn't help the guy in management squirming in his chair make a good decision.

Re:Ah, an Onion-esk headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, you're the only person that's going to bother to read this, and that's how I want it. This message is for you and no one else.

Never, ever, use "-esk" again.

It's "-esque", as in "Ah, an Onion-esque headline"

Your use of "-esk" made me puke a little, in my mouth. I grew up where we got the first days of "deer huntin'" season off of school, where rednecks had gun racks in trucks with confederate flag bumper stickers, and yet I know that the suffix is "esque".

Your ass needs to learn that too, right the fuck now. Never do that again.

Seems to me

[Joe Snipe]

a server side log of unique ip's that Download [ some standard file ] from the major repositories/minor mirrors, with a forward to a central DB (IP's stripped, of course) would be a relatively simple solution.

Re:Seems to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Erm, NAT? DHCP?

Re:Seems to me

[Anonymous Coward]

does it matter? are you going to download something, then refresh your ip and do it again? Anyway it doesn't need to be exact to acheive correct data, that's what statisticians are for.

Re:Seems to me

[farfield]

Hmm, that could work. There are only 10 minor problems that I see:

00. Getting the agreement of all the distros and people who roll their own to supply the data.
01. FTP/HTTP caches, DHCP and NAT networks.
10. I downloaded feisty once, installed it on 4 machines and gave two people copies of the ISO. If my behaviour is typical: that's great, just multiply the result by 6; if not: then a survey of all Linux users would have to be conducted to find out how much each downloaded copy is propagated.

Do Linux Embedded Devices Count?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about the number of Linux Embedded Devices since we are counting. It would seem most people dont even know they are using linux a this level.

We can figure this out

[friedman101]

Tally every PC sold where the customer asks "The wireless card on this notebook doesn't have a broadcom chipset, right?" or "Do you have this model with an NVidia card? ATI is dead to me"

Re:We can figure this out

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh..

I just bought one of those Dell Linux laptops and also configured an Intel and Nvidia chipset so your comment has merit.

Re:We can figure this out

[jZnat]

Only problem with that idea is that Broadcom wireless chips and ATI graphics chips suck just as hard on Windows as well (driver-wise for ATI, and both driver and hardware quality for Broadcom).

Counting

[NeoTerra]

One question is are they strictly talking about desktop linux, or do they also count in servers? Would they count the people who use/access these servers, or just the company/person who maintains it? I would imagine seeing something along the lines of number of machines it's installed on, but it has flaws as well. I have a desktop and laptop for personal use, as well as a desktop and laptop for work, plus an extra desktop for testing software. I could count as 1 user or 5 licenses. Now at a Public Library, you could have a few machines that get used by a host of people each day. That would yield more users than licenses.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but linux users could be confined to a small group, or expanded to anyone who visits a website running on linux.

And then you'll have each side of the debate disputing and spinning numbers to be in their favor...A messy deal that will be. Well, if it ever happens.

Re:number 6

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's just precious that you guys spout this baloney so continually, and appear to genuinely believe your own words. Come to think of it, it's not really precious -- it's actually kind of sad.

We're all users

[pedestrian crossing]

The other day I was in an Edeka, and happened to see the Tux/Linux Inside logo on their cash register display. It made my day...

Re:We're all users

[Anonymous Coward]

that's hot

my non representative sample

[flar2]

Given the diversity of computer uses and computer users, there's no good way to measure this. For what it's worth, the sample from my web server represents 91.3% Windows, 7.4% Mac, 0.9% Linux, and 0.2% unknown. That sample is of course not representative of all computer users.

Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[twitter]

Desktop liberation is important because it prevents sabotage in other seemingly unrelated areas like, power management and portable music players. As long as M$ has the lion's share of desktops, they can put pressure on vendors, equipment makers and even on line service providers like Google. Everyone else loses when M$ wins.

This power is severely degraded now, thanks to Vista and Apple. When you combine Apple's 10% share with the GNU/Linux 5%, you get numbers that have bottom line implications. That goes double when all the "decision makers" are in that 15%. The bottom line is performance. M$ suffers as much or more than anyone else from their attempts at sabotage because the kludges add up to workarounds, bloat and instability. These things show painfully in Vista and it's hurt sales.

Despite the attempts at sabotage, GNU/Linux continues to work better than other software. This is key to both adoption and motivation. Desktop adopters get systems that are light years ahead of others for networking and stability, without losing applications and features. Vista is not much better than XP, but the average GNU/Linux distribution is better than both. The average Windoze user has a spectrum of ageing, non free software that has trouble talking to itself, much less sharing files across a home network or the internet. Purchasing Vista and a $400 office suits does not improve the situation for them, it just adds another box that won't talk to the others. Replacing everything with free software fixes every computer in the house. The sooner the end user moves, the better off they are.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, shut up, for crying out loud. You're making Linux users look bad, and we need good publicity, not angry bullshit.

Argue for Linux on its merits (administration, stability, freedom) not against Microsoft for your invented slights against you and the community.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Desktop liberation is important because it prevents sabotage in other seemingly unrelated areas like, power management and portable music players

Last time I checked Microsoft hasn't sabotaged either power management or portable music players. Apple is still laughing about the Zune.

The bottom line is performance. M$ suffers as much or more than anyone else from their attempts at sabotage because the kludges add up to workarounds, bloat and instability.

The bottom line isn't performance, if it was, Microsoft wouldn't have the kind of market share that it has. Further, The bottom line for consumer operating systems is backward compatibility. As long as most XP and Windows 2000 applications will run on Vista, Vista will be a success. MS doesn't suffer from their business practices, they prosper from it. How do you think they got where they are now?

These things show painfully in Vista and it's hurt sales.

Again, the vast majority of OS sales happen via OEM's. I don't know many computer users who upgrade their own OS. People will move to Vista when they ditch their old PC and buy a new one with Vista preloaded.

Despite the attempts at sabotage, GNU/Linux continues to work better than other software. This is key to both adoption and motivation. Desktop adopters get systems that are light years ahead of others for networking and stability, without losing applications and features. Vista is not much better than XP, but the average GNU/Linux distribution is better than both. The average Windoze user has a spectrum of ageing, non free software that has trouble talking to itself, much less sharing files across a home network or the internet.

What? First, your statement that GNU/Linux works better than other software is debatable. Second, your statement that "Dekstop adopters get systems that are light years ahead of others for networking and stability, without losing applicaitons and features" is out right laughable. Windows XP is stable and networks just fine if you have the latest security updates, good anti-virus / firewall software (and either run an alternative browser or run IE with a good anti-spyware package) and the idea that you don't lose application when you switch from Windows to Linux is just plain stupid. Most Windows applications don't have native Linux ports so you lose just about every application that your used to running if you switch to Linux.

Purchasing Vista and a $400 office suits does not improve the situation for them, it just adds another box that won't talk to the others. Replacing everything with free software fixes every computer in the house. The sooner the end user moves, the better off they are.

Linux isn't even an option for the vast majority of users because the most popular OEM's push Windows and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Purchasing a new PC with Vista and a $400 office suite is a much better solution for most users then hunting down an OEM that actually preinstalls Linux and then starting from scratch with a brand new OS they aren't familiar and with and a whole bunch of Windows applications they are used to running that can't be installed and run natively under Linux.

I'm no Vista fan (I use XP at work and have Macs at home), but any consumer used to running XP will pickup Vista quickly and they can continue to use most of applications they used when they ran Windows XP. It's a hell of a lot easier than transitioning to an entirely new OS and an entirely new set of applications. Vista will sell as users buy new PCs that come with Vista and Office preinstalled and in 4 or 5 years most desktop PC's will be running Vista.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista is not much better than XP, but the average GNU/Linux distribution is better than both. The average Windoze user has a spectrum of ageing, non free software that has trouble talking to itself, much less sharing files across a home network or the internet ... Replacing everything with free software fixes every computer in the house

I'm no fan of Microsoft or their software, but this is just impressive-sounding aimless tripe that accomplishes nothing. What exactly do you figure you gain with posts like these? And that "M$" and "Windoze" deal? You must think you're doing us all a favor, don't you?

Yech.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Maxo-Texas]

I can't see why this was modded troll.

But I have no mod points today.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[dedazo]

Let me help you understand why it was modded as troll. This is what the post should have looked like:

Desktop liberation is important because it prevents sabotage in other seemingly unrelated areas like, power management and portable music players. As long as [Microsoft] has the lion's share of desktops, they can put pressure on vendors, equipment makers and even on line service providers like Google.

This is the point where you quit while you're ahead, and it's the difference between +5, Insighftul and -1, Troll.

The rest of the post is nothing more than a disjointed, infantile nickel hyperbole rant, complete with grade school creative spelling, the implication that free software is absolutely perfect and everything else is absolutely useless, the ever so odious "GNU/Linux" Stallmanite koolaid push and empty promises of nirvana if only everyone would just be reasonable and see the world in the same "join us or die" black and white shades as him. The whole thing is "cleverly" designed to make sure that you end up looking like you're attacking free software or defending Microsoft when you try to question his bullshit.

Now you might very well agree with the latter part of the post, in which case more power to you and all that. Most people don't, however, and that's probably why twit has been getting troll mods on all his "let me tell you why M$ sux" rants lately.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. Or if you're twitter, you just blame your negative moderation on a vast Microsoft conspiracy to undermine you personally, operated out of India with funds provided by Bill Gates' checkbook. Either way, since you're incapable of realizing that you inflict more damage than good to the very cause you are supposedly trying to advance, you lose.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[twitter]

Dedicated Twitter attack bot dedazo claims:

The whole thing is "cleverly" designed to make sure that you end up looking like you're attacking free software or defending Microsoft when you try to question his bullshit.

There's nothing really clever about it. I advocate software freedom and show how M$ fights it. When you engage in your typical, straw men and M$ style name calling:

the implication that free software is absolutely perfect and everything else is absolutely useless, the ever so odious "GNU/Linux" Stallmanite koolaid push and empty promises of nirvana if only everyone would just be reasonable and see the world in the same "join us or die" black and white shades as him.

You are indeed attacking free software to defend M$ and that's what you are paid to do. That and your silly mod point game. I doubt it's much of a living, because talk is cheap, and I know it's a complete waste of life.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Macthorpe]

You didn't actually do anything except prove his point, you do know that?

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't actually do anything except prove his point, you do know that? No, he doesn't know that. He's actually incapable of seeing it. It's really quite sad.

The more of Twitter's postings I read, the more sorry I feel for him.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Anonymous Coward]

A twitter post is like a Uwe Boll film. The trailer looks great, the story premise seems interesting and the cast is impeccable. Then when you walk out of the movie theater you want to gouge your eyes out with a rusted butter knife.

I was dumb enough to pay $12 to see Bloodrayne, and I'm usually dumb enough to read through his incompetent blabber as well. It beats playing solitaire though.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that's right, dedazo! You're reasonable!

Anybody rational MUST be on Microsoft's payroll!

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[dedazo]

There's nothing really clever about it.

No, there isn't. That's why I enclosed the term in quotes.

You are indeed attacking free software to defend M$ and that's what you are paid to do.

Thank you for proving my point. If I actually had need of your approval, I guess I'd be very happy right about now.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupidity is so underrated...

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Maxo-Texas]

We burst out loud laughing at the sex scene it was so lame.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[Maxo-Texas]

Thanks for a well reasoned response.

I still don't personally see it rising to the level of troll but without mod points to day, I guess it stands.

A lot of modding here on /. seems overly harsh and random. And a lot of it seems to be a vindictive or more motivated at shutting people up who expressed something unpopular. I guess if he has posted this a couple dozen times tho then folks get tired of it (and I've just missed his other posts). I could see it as a troll then. There are some folks on Rotten Tomatoes like that. The first couple times, the subjects they raise are okay but then they keep raising them for every new movie and it gets old.

Re:Full Liberation is Not Pointless.

[jb.hl.com]

You are indeed attacking free software to defend M$ and that's what you are paid to do.

If saying that something isn't perfect is attacking it, then I must be one misanthropic bastard.

the Ballmer index

[cli_rules!]

20,000 Linux users per thrown chair (potty mouth == 5,000/word)

Re:the Ballmer index

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, how about we just drudge up microsoft bob again too? if that's the best you linux idiots have it's going to be an easy victory.

Most effective method...

[gerbalblaste]

Wouldn't the most effective method be to get google and yahoo usage statistics? (oh noes!!! statistics are inaccurate)

Re:Most effective method...

[stix213]

One would think, but then that assumes that Windows, Mac, and Linux users all use the Internet for the same things, view the same number of pages, and of course make the same Internet searches as each other. TFA makes a point that this may not be the case.

:) And from my own experience, when I switched to Linux on my desktop I made a lot of Linux related searches that I wouldn't have on a Windows OS, just to get it all customized for me.

(Although, I would be interested is seeing the Yahoo and Google stats anyways - To HELL WITH THE ARTICLE!)

Google Trends

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what it means but, Google trends shows that the number of searches for "linux" has declined over the last years.

Re:Google Trends

[donscarletti]

I found this strangely enlightening. Linux has half as many searches as Windows and OSX is tiny (though granted not all OSX users know it by that name). I'd just imagine that people must just have been interested as to what the Linux stuff was all about and now many of them have found out. Linux is great but it does get a lot of hype, that's probably a far bigger factor in searches. That said, strangely Linux searches don't spike in the same way windows ones do which is what I'd expect for hype driven interest so I could be wrong about all that,

Re:Google Trends

[cmoney]

Try that again for Windows,Linux,Mac. Kind of interesting to see how Linux and Mac searches correlate.

Re:Google Trends

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I checked windows is a noun too.

Re:Google Trends

[ekimminau]

http://www.google.com/trends?q=microsoft%2Clinux%2 Capple&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

Catch - Recatch

[vaceituno]

The easiest and more accurate tecnique would be to use the catch-recatch tecnique from biology.

Re:Catch - Recatch

[Intron]

Most users object to the eartags.

Re:Catch - Recatch

[vaceituno]

Ooops! I suppose writing their names down could be an acceptable alternative...

Re:Catch - Recatch

[Intron]

Oh sure. Throw in a toally unproven technique. When I tried asking that with spotted owls, all that any of them said was "Who?"

Are you now or have you ever been...

[Anonymous Coward]

Define it as someone who's willing to be counted.

Re:hmm. -- you forgot

[enrevanche]

(6) in soviet russia, ... (7) profit (8) someone will smugly summarize the whole thing in one post

Use Google Trends

[icoloma]

It's hard to pick the exact query that does not include other areas, but hey:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=windows+vista%2C+ub untu

Re:Use Google Trends

[mpapet]

Except the problem with this approach is Microsoft biases the results simply because they can afford PR people who can get stories printed many places that matter.

Example: Microsoft sends Vista to Walt Mossberg over at the WSJ. (BTW, on a smoking-fast system of his choice) He will at least look at it because Microsoft buys advertising. Let's say someone over at Vectorlinux http://www.vectorlinux.com/ attempted to spend some time doing PR.

1. Editors would not give them the time of day because they can't afford to advertise.
2. Let's say there's an editor with a heart of gold out there and throws Vector a bone. Vector would probably need to provide their distro on a laptop. "Oh, just install it." probably won't work. From there, the distro is a punching bag for Microsoft as the only article that sells advertising/copy is "Microsoft versus Linux Death Match!!!"
3. How can Vector legitimately bribe the editorial staff in a manner they are accustomed?

Ubuntu's distro is not superior in any special way. Ubuntu gets press because Shuttleworth pays for PR.

Re:Use Google Trends

[tpierron]

Well, instead of google trends, does anyone know the market share of user-agent (which include the OS) of google web-sites ? I'll bet nearly all machines connected to the internet have once been connected to at least the search engine.

Okay, some may argue that not every linux box is connected, some may have changed their UA, etc ... but the same also apply to windows.

Still, seeing the figures of google, I'm pretty sure it would give a strong picture of the OS market.

Re:Use Google Trends

[ekimminau]

http://www.google.com/trends?q=windows%2C+linux%2C +unix%2C+osx&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

Not really

[mdsolar]

Most of the traffic on my blog http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-is-real-e nergy.html comes from slashdot. There might be a bias that windows users are more interested in renewable energy but I kind of doubt it. The feedburner ratios wrt to XP in the last month are

XP: 1
Linux:0.402
Mac:0.179
Vista:0.089
W2000:0.069
And a few others

Feedburner seems to miss quite a lot, but unless it is really undercounting linux, it would look like slashdot readers prefer XP as a plurality.
--
Windows is less efficient. You need solar power: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

Re:Not really

[Orange Crush]

Feedburner seems to miss quite a lot, but unless it is really undercounting linux, it would look like slashdot readers prefer XP as a plurality.

I'm usually running Windows XP when I browse slashdot. Of course, this is because I usually browse slashdot when I'm goofing off at work and have no choice in the matter of which operating system my work PC will run. =) And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Re:Not really

[eheldreth]

I only have one issue with your post. You state it looks like "it would look like slashdot readers prefer XP as a plurality". I would assume that most slashdot readers tend to use the site while at work (come on be honest now). If this is the case they may not have direct control over which OS they are using. For instance the use of XP on our systems is mandated by our corporate office. We are just a small satellite in the middle of no where and TPTB could care less which OS I think we should be running.

Re:Not really

[GIL_Dude]

I really don't think it matters (for this analysis; obviously it matters in other areas) who chose the OS people are using. The point is that people are using an OS and those numbers are what you add up. Whether I (as an IT overlord) made you use it or you chose it yourself: the difference doesn't really matter for the statistical analysis of "how many people use OS Y" (can't say X there for obvious reasons).

On the other hand, the question "how many people got to choose the OS they are running right now while posting to slashdot" would be the place to count who chose the OS you are posting from.

Re:Not really

[eheldreth]

I would agree if we where simply discussing overall OS usage trends. However the OP did not use the data to discus "how many people use OS Y" but rather to posit the idea that "it would look like slashdot readers prefer XP as a plurality". Since we are talking about the preference of the end user and not of those choosing the OS I believe it was fair to point out this flaw in his original assumption. I would also agree however that the personal OS choices of slashdot readers are irrelevant to TFA and this entire string is slightly off topic so I digress less I sound more trollish than I intended.

Re:Not really

[mdsolar]

I think it is a fair point that folks may be using an OS they did not choose. I was replying to a post that said all slashdoters are linux users. I've always used unix for work (though sometimes VMS) and for a while now I've had a windows box at home for the kids and for doing some lame stuff, like taxes. So, having linux at home is more of a luxury for me with more than one computer now. My son still bugs be to use the XP partition on this box but I rarely use it myself. It has just been that better computers always ran *nix and X was always way ahead of windows or apple's stuff. For running a browser, it probably does not matter what OS you use, though I find that there are some problems using a 64 bit browser with 32 bit plugins on linux. Don't know if the problem is general though. Still, since I was happy with mosaic I don't care that much. I just hack it again and it starts working again. It bugs me a little that I know what people are using. In repayment, I'll say that when you see the 2048x2048 screen in your stats, that's me.
--
Solar is THE energy source: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

Equally pointless to count Windows users

[Weaselmancer]

No real way to count them, either.

For instance, I have two Windows 98 boxes in my basement I got from an auction. Am I a Windows user? Do I count twice? Or not at all since they'll never be powered up (got them for cheap long ago, never used them, will probably donate them to Goodwill).

And how about all those pirate boxes in Asia? Do they count or not?

If I had to guess, I'd say that WGA was (at least partially) an attempt to count windows users. And we all know how that worked out.

Re:Equally pointless to count Windows users

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a good thing you didn't have to guess, because your attempt was so hideously wrong that I think it gave me cancer.

Re:Equally pointless to count Windows users

[Weaselmancer]

Not possible. Trolls can't get cancer - they regenerate.

Linux Advocates?

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing that I have noticed over the years is that all of the supposed Linux Advocates (including user groups) really want Linux to succeed but really aren't that willing to show others how to use it. I wouldn't expect anyone to show me how to do everything but it just seems if you ask a question about something challenging you won't get a good usable straight answer. Rather you get something much more obscure or if you asked the question online you might not get an answer at all unless you have described what you have already tried in great detail and in the right form. It is some sort of unspoken rule or something. I realize that they may be trying to hold on to a few secrets here and there that make them more valuable to their employer or as a consultant but come on! Don't complain about Microsoft unless you are helping to spread the good word about Linux yourself and help a few people out.

Count Yum/Apt repo hits?

[evilandi]

Why not just count yum/apt repository/mirror hits by unique IP?

Okay so that underestimates those in big organisations who run their own mirror, and those running old distros that don't check for updates, but it would be a damn sight more accurate than most of the other methods.

The big distros (Red Hat, Ubuntu etc) could even sponsor an independent body to oversee the fair collection of the data from the repos and mirrors.

Re:Count Yum/Apt repo hits?

[Gothmolly]

Except for NATs, Proxies, and LUGs that hand out copies of distributions that they downloaded once.

You fail at the Internet.

Re:Count Yum/Apt repo hits?

[Chandon Seldon]

You don't seem to have understood the suggestion properly.

Consider a Firefox bugfix - every Ubuntu machine that is being used as a desktop will pop up an "update available" notice and allow the user to download the update. If the Ubuntu people count the number of downloads of *that update*, they'll get a reasonably accurate count of internet-connected Ubuntu desktops.

What I'd like to know is

[$RANDOMLUSER]

I'd be curious to see how many Java developers use desktop Linux. After all, they're not tied to any particular platform. I've got this growing suspicion that people who don't have to use the latest Windows (XP or Vista) are either using Win2K or Linux.

Re:What I'd like to know is

[mrmagos]

...or OSX. The couple of Java devs I know have Macs. I know, this is anecdotal evidence, at best.

Get the genuine advantage

[Cheesey]

1) Require a national ID number to download any Linux distro, and validation of ownership of this number through an in-person meeting with the local authorities.

2) Have the software "phone home" that it's actually being used, when it's used.

Yes! Every day Linux Genuine Advantage helps customers all over the world who are victims of software piracy get genuine. If you got your Linux for free, you should upgrade today to get the following exciting new features:

• Closed source, for extra Security Through Obscurity(tm),
• Compatibility with the latest viruses and malware,
• Innovative new Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) to help you manage your digital rights,
• DirectX 10.

Anyway, you don't want an OS that was written by hackers, do you?

Re:Get the genuine advantage

[Orange Crush]

Innovative new Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) to help us manage your digital privileges,

There. Fixed that for you.

Weather reporting?

[fishbowl]

Be sure to count all those people who make use of television and web weather reports. If they use data from NOAA, USGS, or services like the streamflow/stormwater data from NWIS, or if they use data modeling service from SDSC or NCSA, they are linux users...

For the Bogglers

[BobMcD]

For those boggling over WHY this matters, try and keep in mind that Microsoft, Apple, et al provide these figures regularly. Whether or not they're valid is a source of debate, but some kind of numbers are out there. This is how we get to say things like 'Windows is 90% of the market', etc.

Perhaps we need a 'BeCounted' daemon that merely tracks the stats of those that would like to be counted? It would still be a fraction, but if that number were out there we'd at least have some kind of data point to discuss. Perhaps FSF or GNU or some other party would host the servers that collect the data? You could even make the thing multi-platform, reporting on specific apps, and providing other useful data and pitch it to Google and company. Not that they're not already tracking this in their own apps, but this would be OSS. You could have all sorts of opt-in/opt-out toggles for it and it would be transparent as to what it tracked. You could also have it gather from different places and homogenize the data after it was submitted. The possibilities abound.

Maybe there already is such a creature? If we supporters of Free-with-a-capital-F want to be relevant moving forward, a detailed head-count could certainly be a step in the right direction.

Re:For the Bogglers

[AnyoneEB]

Sounds like the Debian Popularity Contest, except for all distros instead of just Debian (and Debian based?). That is for package popularity, but it appears to count number of installs reporting info as well.

Re:For the Bogglers

[BobMcD]

Bingo! If this were moved a bit more towards the generic, and more-widely adopted, we'd be in business.

Re:For the Bogglers

[speculatrix]

there has been such an effort for many years, but it hasn't gained ground. heck, I barely remember to keep my entries up to date. http://counter.li.org/

Re:For the Bogglers

[BobMcD]

That could use a little charisma, but yeah, it's pretty close.

Does anyone know why it hasn't caught on? Seems like something like this would make a nice addition to the 'base' installs of the major distro's.

Re:For the Bogglers

[wings]

It's not a daemon, but if you want to be counted,
you could start here: http://counter.li.org/

Re:For the Bogglers

[BobMcD]

Yeah, that was pointed out to me, and they do have a script...

I'm not convinced, though, as you can simply fill out the form by hand as well. I'm not saying that any system would be bullet-proof, but I'd prefer one where the machine does the reporting.

Re:For the Bogglers

[DogDude]

You could even make the thing multi-platform, reporting on specific apps, and providing other useful data and pitch it to Google and company.

Why is that data useful, and to who is it useful?

This is how we get to say things like 'Windows is 90% of the market', etc.

That's important for marketing. Why would anybody who is not in marketing care one way or the other?

Re:For the Bogglers

[BobMcD]

Why would anybody who is not in marketing care one way or the other? Don't we all engage in a little marketing from time to time?

Imagine a situation where a group of people is making a decision and the software and operating system are a factor in that decision. Imagine likewise that the popularity of this software and operating system are factors. In this situation, which is preferable: Making assumptions using limited data or making them without any data at all?

Joe Shmoe's Corp is opening a sister branch to handle their own (insert business need here.) The team making the IT decision has determined that both MS Office and OpenOffice are adequate. The cost factor has already been discussed. In the 'con' column is the assumption that no one uses OO.org's product, except to try it out.

Is this true or false, and to what degree? Is it trending up or down? Again, to what degree?

With any Open Source product, you can't necessarily control the distribution path. Your code could legitimately be obtained from a number of sources beyond your control. The only way to reflect the number of end users you have would be to have them report back to you the use of the product. You can't exactly count sales figures...

Re:For the Bogglers

[westlake]

Perhaps we need a 'BeCounted' daemon that merely tracks the stats of those that would like to be counted?

This is as meaningless a stat as a Fox News call-in poll.

Re:For the Bogglers

[BobMcD]

Somehow your post got cut short before you stated the reasoning behind your statement...

Nobody has a clue how many people are using Linux

[Dachannien]

...Netcraft confirms it!

How about World Linux Counter

[raluxs]

Yes, go on and sign up, lets rise those stats!

http://counter.li.org/
Registered Linux User #185812

Re:How about World Linux Counter

[kboodu]

>Yes, go on and sign up, lets rise those stats! > >http://counter.li.org/ >Registered Linux User #185812 Nice to see the site back up. It's been down WAYYYY too long. Tim Registered Linux User #325725

Re:How about World Linux Counter

[HappyDrgn]

Registered user #156262 !! This could be accurate if people used it.

NEVER Count Linux Users

[mpapet]

Crazy? Maybe. But here are the reasons.

1. Big companies will crush most of the smaller distros. If anyone is old enough to remember before the ipod was launched, they would tell you there were many more mp3-audio devices. Some of them were interesting. The entry of Apple crushed most of them for a product that wasn't substantially better and more expensive.

2. Big companies use research to justify market entry. They will create a Linux distro mono-culture. Not only will they create a mono-culture, they will do so with an inferior product that consumers pay more for. (That's how they pay for advertising and stuff sales channels with products)

I like seeing as wide a variety of distros as possible. To keep it that way, never, ever give corporate conglomerates the tools they need to screw it up. In this case, reliable data on the number of Linux users.

Re:NEVER Count Linux Users

[Chandon Seldon]

I agree that worldwide standardization on a sub-par distro (Say SLED) wouldn't be great, but I think that brand dilution is a bigger problem for "Linux on the desktop" than distro consolidation is at the moment.

Having some variety is good, but the "Linux Market" has more than enough variety. If some consolidation occurred, that would probably be a good thing. In the Desktop / Server / Workstation space, we have Red Hat, Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo and a lot of distros that are blatantly redundant to one of those. The right to fork exists, so there's a huge advantage to delaying such a fork for as long as possible by contributing to a major distro.

Re:number 6

[WilliamSChips]

Sure, whatever, 700781. Get back in the line.

I don't *have* it but I *use* it.

[kahei]

I have 2 windows machines and no Linux machine. But I *use* Linux; my web sites are hosted on linux because the virtualization is better and it's cheaper. My svn server is linux and so is the server that runs wikis, PM systems and the other things I need to have. Why, I couldn't get by without linux! Yet I don't actually have a linux machine and I thus don't add to the ranks of linux users, whereas I *do* add to the ranks of Windows users.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's very hard to evaluate the importance of an OS by a headcount.

Pointless in deed

[jfekendall]

It's a total waste of time to try to collect, mine and extrapolate demographic stats like this period. While the numbers may be objective, the way that they are interpreted and announced to the public may be subjectively skewed. Who would really want to know how far linux has proliferated? One guy that I know of... and his name rhymes with Bill Gates.

Re:Pointless in deed

[Anonymous Coward]

Gill Bates?

Re:Pointless in deed

[jfekendall]

In deed... Evil Billy and Steve Jobs or maybe the folks who get their paychecks signed by the two.

How do I count running Linux Code in BSD?

[deweycheetham]

How do I count running Linux Binaries on the BSD's? Is this 1, or do i get a 1/2 for each. I also run several version of Linux in VMware. Do I get partial credit for them too, since I usually keep 8 or 9 different Linux partitions laying around?

Yes, he is right

[mgblst]

Also, programming is useless, because nobody can write a bug free program.

And weather predication is useless, because we can never be 100% sure of the results.

And Economics is useless, because there are so many parameters to measure constantly, and they are always changing that we can't actually be sure of anything at anytime.

etc....

I suggest we do it like the MPAA and RIAA

[wild_berry]

Take a leaf from the MPAA and RIAA and extrapolate the losses from Microsoft's profits.

More to the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux can do almost everything well. I set up an old p111 450 box with Ubuntu studio for a friend, it will play mp3s, surf the net with grace, run interesting software like Kstars or Pymol and do scientific notation with ease. Run a Linux Citrix ICA client so that he can work a remote Windows client from home. Read export and import the inevitable .doc and exel files that he has to deal with. It in turn will run a usb2 card and read and write to large external ntfs volumes, something that windows had big time trouble with on the same computer! Also it runs Quick Books under wine just fine. In short it will do things that a windows OS and software can do but at such a performance hit that windows bogs down and runs like a dog with a broken hind leg.

At the local geek store it is becoming apparent that there are more and more average joe users asking about putting linux on their old computers, the business for linux friendly old hardware is brisk. Fact is that windows has become less user friendly and certainly less hardware friendly. There are one heck of a lot of small business owners that have tried to update to vista and have instead wound up "is it possible to reinstall XP instead" or "is it possible to run my old accounting software on Linux, I hear there might be some way of doing it. Is it true that Linux doesn't have the same trouble with virus software slowing it down?"

"Linux Users" vs "Uses of Linux"

[Runesabre]

As a game developer creating a cross-platform game client that can run on Windows, Mac and Linux, I am definitely interested in the number of "Linux Users" as I evaluate cost of development targeting and supporting Linux and the expected number of players I will get from that effort. What I am personally not as interested in are the number of "Uses of Linux"; however, if I were a tools, library or utility developer I would probably definitely be interested in the total amount of "Uses of Linux" when considering whether to spend my development time targeting that platform.

For me personally, the number of web servers or embedded devices using Linux doesn't mean anything. My car's navigation system must run some sort of operating system, however, I wouldn't consider myself a User of that OS though it certainly is a Use of that OS (whatever it might be). I didn't purposely choose my Nav system because it ran a particular OS, it simply came with whatever it came with and I use it just like I would use a phone or a washer or refrigerator with some embedded OS.

I would feel the data would be useful if broken down into at least two broad categories:
    1. All uses of Linux.
    2. Users who knowingly and purposely choose Linux as their OS of choice. Presumably this would be a subset of data from #1 and would useful for consumer application developers.

Re:"Linux Users" vs "Uses of Linux"

[Anonymous Coward]

My kids play video games in the our family van on short and long trips with our CD player. Maybe you should be interested in the "Uses of Linux".

Re:"Linux Users" vs "Uses of Linux"

[murph]

I would feel the data would be useful if broken down into at least two broad categories:
        1. All uses of Linux.
        2. Users who knowingly and purposely choose Linux as their OS of choice. Presumably this would be a subset of data from #1 and would useful for consumer application developers. I would also like to see Windows statistics broken down similarly, but they never are. Most people do not make a "knowing and purposeful" choice about thier operating system.

Back to one...

[misleb]

Make that one. I stopped (mostly) using Linux about 2 years ago and started using OS X.

2 + -1 = 1

World domination failed. :(

-matthew

Re:Back to one...

[mrsteveman1]

NO you must not say that

plz sign up for Linux re-education class k thx bye

Re:Back to one...

[tuba_dude]

Sir, you are overusing your spacebar! This is the internet, there is no need to hit it so many times! plzluvlinuxlotsandweloveyoubackkthxbye would be much more efficient.

Re:Back to one...

[The PS3 Will Fail]

Your counting is mistaken. The count is of people who use Linux. If we were saying that two years ago, the count was at 5 then you could chime in and say, "I stopped using Linux" and then the count could now be assumed to be 4. But 2 people have posted that they use Linux. The fact that you don't use Linux is meaningless.

Use your head and think a little before you pipe in. Or did you just want to tell everyone how great you think Apple is? If that was the case, I apologize to myself for wasting my time on you.

Re:Back to one...

[misleb]

Holy crap, dude. Take a Xanax or smoke a joint or something. This whole thread is a bit of a joke... and so was my post in it.

2 + -1 = 1

Abuse of math. Get it?

Yeah, you wasted your time... by being a prick.

Re:Back to one...

[The PS3 Will Fail]

My point: your joke was stupid. Shut up.

Re:Back to one...

[misleb]

Couldn't find a joint, eh?

Re:Back to one...

[The PS3 Will Fail]

STFU.

Your joke was stupid. It did not make any sense. You are not intelligent. You don't deserve to communicate with me. Your mother should have had an abortion. The noble thing for you to do now is to go walk into a bus.

Re:Back to one...

[misleb]

Well, at least you didn't add me as a foe. I'll be content with "freak."

Re:Back to one...

[The PS3 Will Fail]

Holy shit - you stupid fuck - when I add you as a foe, my name will show up in your "freaks" list.

Congratulations, you're the dumbest fuck on Slashdot.

Stop fucking posting here! You're a moron!

Know what, mr.G can help with this

[n0on3]

You know what people, almost all user-active-machines are often also used for some surfing, so what's the most visited web-resource ? I think it's really the google homesearch page... Maybe they can help to have a more-reliable estimate...

Re:Know what, mr.G can help with this

[vgullotta]

I agree. Take the major search engines, Google, Yahoo, MSN, etc. and look at number of hits, percentage of users that use linux, and you have a relatively accurate number. Sure, you're going to get the same guy from two linux machines but you'll get people with two windows machines and you'll get people with both, and don't forget all the BeOS users =) But it's an accurate enough number for statistics to get a quality "x% use MS, y% use Apple, z% use Linux", etc. which would be good enough for most applications. Sure it won't be perfect, but what polls are? What matters is the overall picture is going to be pretty solid.

Re:Know what, mr.G can help with this

[dvice_null]

Everybody uses Google, right?
Google runs on Linux, right?
So everybody uses Linux, right?
Problem solved, right?

Re:Know what, mr.G can help with this

[turing_m]

It will be biased towards linux because of the firefox install base, which is higher in the linux world and automatically defaults to google.

Taking an average from the different major search engines would be better, but probably difficult to trust/coordinate.

Smolt?

[Nushio]

I'll go ahead and ruin your joke, but Smolt is already used to keep track on hardware and distros.

Perhaps if we get more distros to adopt the use of Smolt, with a central server, we could *attempt* to keep track of stats, as seen on Fedora Project

Re:I have an idea (Smolt?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't smolt serve this purpose? While it's generally intended to get a profile of the hardware used with Fedora, it also uses a unique ID created for each machine that registers. So that is at least a hard count of machines that definitely have linux installed...

Not that hard

[punkr0x]

It seems to me that Linux is growing at a pretty good clip, and any numbers you can come up with (downloads, random surveys, browser usage, etc) would show that. This whole article just reads like they're whining because they can't get the numbers they want. What exactly are they looking for?

check out smolt

[chr00t]

Smolt is a basic hardware profiler. Its intended to be a profiler to get automated information from users. This should make it easier for our developers to do what they need to do. How can you help? Well look at the code and make it better. It's still in the very early stages but has good potential. https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/smolt

If only...

[rootology]

...Linux had something Windows XP's constant "call home" nonsense, we'd know!

yall can count me lotsa linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I use linux
1. at work on my stinkpad
2. at home on my
      a. workstation
      b. server
      c. mythtv box
      d. wifes computer
3. my church server
4. friends server at work
5. another dude I do work for, hes got 2 linux servers running RHCS.

Numbers are meaningless

[Anonymous Coward]

So long as Lunix remains a third-tier OS which an average user has no chance of installing, the numbers are irrelevant.

Some people are using Lunix for servers. That's it. It has no acceptance as a desktop OS, due to it's inability to autodetect and autoconfig hardware, and it's failure to provide easy (read: non-CLI) software installs which don't require manually fixing the "always first time failed" install.

It's also pretty disgusting how Apache, Lunix's so-called "killer app", can't even install correctly without requiring a manually fix.

It's going to be hard to gain any market share when they haven't even caught up to Windows 95.

Re:Numbers are meaningless

[CrossChris]

We can see why you wanted to remain an anonymous troll!

The number of Linux users on the planet is roughly equal to the number of people connected to the internet. You use Linux - though you don't know it, on almost every webpage you visit!

Current Linux distributions are between 5 and 7 years ahead of anything that MS have produced, and make Vista look very old fashioned, slow, unreliable and expensive. Feel free to use Vista, but don't come looking for help when the next revalidation of your crapware declares yours to be an illegal copy, and you have to pay the extortionate price for it all over again!

Game Over, Microsoft

Re:Numbers are meaningless

[Ltar]

Current Linux distributions are between 5 and 7 years ahead of anything that MS have produced, and make Vista look very old fashioned, slow, unreliable and expensive.

I disagree. Current linux distributions may have an edge in stability, and obviously they're free, but I would hardly say that linux is ready for anything more than out-of-sight servers and geek zealots.

I use ubuntu, and I love it, but I couldn't install google earth without opening the terminal. I don't have any idea what I did to install google earth, I found a guide online and copied the commands. I couldn't install songbird without the terminal, and I was frustrated that I had to drag the script into the terminal and delete extra text when the terminal refused to accept my spelling of "installsongbird.sh". Come to think of it, I can't remember the last program I HAVE installed, except by terminal, and I can think of no end of situations where opening the terminal hearalded a several-hour ordeal with IRC support chats and google.

Of course, there is the enourmous "ad/remove programs" list, but you can't honestly expect any sane person to settle for that.- I don't want to have to hope that some cool app has been added to some index, and I don't CARE about 99% of the apps in that list. further, I don't want to wait a minute for it to scan indexes before I can start, and other for it to re-scan so I can close.

Linux may be 5-7 years ahead of linux in terms of stability, but otherwise I can discern no clear advantage. Linux is a nest of geek fascism, but it really isn't ready in any distribution for the general user. saying it is doesn't make it so.

the windows install wizard... really. it's a wonderful thing. I won't say that ubuntu is "ready for the desktop" untill a similar system has become a standard for ALL linux apps. fact- people are scared of the terminal. I'm disgusted at how often I have to use the terminal in ubuntu. I don't like to use the terminal, I don't like having to scour the internet looking for some way to do somethings that seemed so basic in windows, installing a new program is particularly malicious, but so is setting the resolution higher than 1024x786 or accessing a network.

It's particularly frustrating because all of the craze reviews for ubuntu say you can live without ever using the terminal once. I, for one, like to have some choice in what programs I put on my computer. if that's true for you, too, you'll need the terminal in ubuntu. People are afraid of the terminal.

I do, in fact, love using ubuntu- but 50% of that joy comes from the sheer geekiness of it all. I want to learn it, but untill you don't NEED to learn it, I won't say ubuntu is ahead of microsoft, at least not in terms of desktop-readiness.

Re:Numbers are meaningless

[fractoid]

So long as Lunix remains a third-tier OS which an average user has no chance of installing, the numbers are irrelevant. Try it. I installed Ubuntu on the weekend and it went off without a hitch. The hardest bit was... actually there was no 'hardest bit' unless you count pasting a line in /etc/fstab to enable ntfs-3g so I could write to my NTFS data drive, and that took 10 seconds and a google for "write ntfs ubuntu". No more "RTFM" or "if you can't figure that out you're not smart enough to run linux". Out of the box it worked with both ethernet ports on the motherboard (one of which has NEVER worked properly under Windows XP), my graphics card (I had to click on a "yes, use the non-FOSS drivers" dialogue then it was all peachy), my SATA drives (which XP wouldn't detect without a 3.5" driver disk during the install, first time I'd used one in years), onboard sound etc.

An hour later I'd installed beryl (more and better eye candy than I've seen on either Vista or OSX), installed wine, and was logged in to WoW without a start menu or paperclip in sight. The one time I did manage to break something (didn't install graphics drivers before installing beryl) a boot into recovery mode fixed everything in 2 minutes.

It's also pretty disgusting how Apache, Lunix's so-called "killer app", can't even install correctly without requiring a manually fix. Eh? ...regardless, Apache / PostgreSQL / MySQL / whatever may be compelling server apps, but the killer app for me was replacing my broken grey copy of Windows XP with an OS that performs equally well, and is better in every single way to my old OS. I've bagged Linux for years because it took so much more stuffing around to set up and maintain than XP did, but that ain't the case any more.

As a subversive

[Phoenix666]

I'm quite happy for no one to know exactly how many linux users are out there, because having the opposition (MS) not know exactly where you are or how many keeps them guessing. Meanwhile, the cold, hard facts continue to drive linux adoption in the background (it's free, secure, fast, light, stable, extensible, open, etc). Most geeks understand those advantages, and influence the tech policies where they work. Which in turn influences the pointy hairs who don't really understand tech but take what the geeks say on faith, lest they appear foolish. Which in turn trickles down to the receptionist being given a new computer that runs the same old app she's ever used running on top of linux.

The way it is now, MS can only say to itself, "Charlie's in the bushes. We don't know exactly where or how many of them there are, but it feels like they're growing stronger and more numerous." In other words, for linux it's a one-front war, whereas for MS it's a thousand-front war.

Printer

[just_another_sean]

Our Toshiba Printer in the office runs Linux. Do I count everyone who prints to it as a Linux User or do we all make up one user?

Might as well count ants

[FranTaylor]

With all the VMware instances and the old clunkers in the basement, I can't even figure out how many Linux systems I have.

Numbers suck!

[jhylkema]

"Are you aaaaangry, Butt-Head?"
"Yeah. I'm angry at numbers!"

why not web logs

[psbrogna]

Wouldn't the web log of a high traffic web site (ie. google) gives us these numbers? Or at least enable the development of thumb rules that would allow us to infer approximations?

Let's All Do The Linux Flip-Flop Dance

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just more whining and tearing of shirts. Just face it, guys, Linux is the corduroy flared trousers of operating systems that gets pimped by a few hand cranked back alley presses. The numbers and desperate straining to crystalise them is just growing pains of a deformed child. Lots of wishful thinking but no real hope. I guess that what happens when karma kicks you back in the face. The open source crowd have been bad mouthing proprietory software and its developers for years. It's kinda nice to see their grip is so loose. Makes me feel all warm inside.

Windows = lots of people getting on with it.
Linux = two kids running around screaming for attention.

That sums it all up.

Statistics and KPI's

[Namors]

Could we just count Windows sales slipping? I mean isn't that the REAL issue here :)

Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

...do I run Linux?

To All Fucktarded Communist Linsux Loving Bitches

[Anonymous Coward]

Here are the different ways to earn yourselves a darwin award.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-S6ZFpPh_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNVng_D3QDM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EHSWm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INrJwV-wygM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZJCzNeDZLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0di4qwaH7y4

Then there is also following in the footsteps of Mr Hands.

Wow, then there would not be any shitdot sheeple left.

GO AHEAD FUCKING FLAME AWAY OR WASTE YOUR GODDAMNED MOD POINTS FUCKTARDED SHITDOT SHEEPLE!
BETTER YET, BYPASS DARWINISM AND SLIT YOUR FUCKING WRISTS FUCKTARDED SHITDOT SHEEPLE!

Courting Linux Users

[RWalz]

At first glance, I thought the headline stated "Attempts to Court Linux Users Remain Pointless" and was confused... I wasn't sure where the news was in that statement.

Re:Courting Linux Users

[sunami88]

I was pretty sure it was about a psychological study about how most /.ers (or at least most Linux users) can't stay in a relationship long enough to get married because they prefer the cold moistness of their parents basements. Which is of course rediculous...

I can leave any time I want.

nmap

[MadMidnightBomber]

duh! nmap -sO 0.0.0.0-255.255.255.255

Read the labels!

[Anonymous Coward]

When you see more labels on products that even acknowledge Linux, even if to say it is not supported, then that will be progress. Hardware is starting to put on labels. Software ( the commercial kind ) is slowly making progress on some fronts, regressing in others.

When it matters enough to label it, then you can worry about counting. Though it does seem awful catch-22 type scenario to me.

Sounds Like BS to me....

[RobDude]

I love Linux, I think it's great. I run Slackware and Ubuntu; and I'm going to purchase that cool new Linux-phone real soon. What I *hate* is the way that some Linux users flat-out lie to promote Linux as something it's not. Attempts to count Linux desktop users is pointless and the primary reason for that is....nobody uses Linux on the desktop. You don't need a fancy survey to tell you that. Walk into Best-Buy and find a wireless card that lists 'Linux' on the side of the box where it says 'Supported OSes'. Better yet, ask a sales rep where the Linux section is, or if this ________ device has native Linux drivers included. I'm sure I'll get plenty of flames for this - and they'll be from the very same people that tell newbies how easy it is to install Linux, and that hardware support is *practically* just as good as Windows, and that you can do *everything* you can do on Windows, and it's just as good.

Re:Sounds Like BS to me....

[Anonymous Coward]

"I love Linux, I think it's great. I run Slackware and Ubuntu; and I'm going to purchase that cool new Linux-phone real soon. What I *hate* is the way that some Linux users flat-out lie to promote Linux as something it's not. Attempts to count Linux desktop users is pointless and the primary reason for that is....nobody uses Linux on the desktop."

If as you state "nobody runs linux on the desktop", and you run Ubuntu, what does that make you???

Proof again that logical arguments are more flame retardant than rants, no matter what the subject matter.

Re:Sounds Like BS to me....

[RobDude]

While I'm sure you felt very clever by demonstrating your impeccable logic skills...you either missed or ignored my point completely.

My point is this - Linux has an insignificant presence on the desktop.

Companies are out to make money. When a hardware vendor is faced with the choice of paying the development/testing costs to provide native Linux drivers; they are going to make that choice with their own best interest at heart ($$$). The increased potential customer base they gain by supporting Linux will gain them less money than the cost to produce the drivers. That's why you can't walk into Best Buy and purchase a wireless network card that says it will work in Linux.

You don't need an in depth study to figure this out, and the only people who complain about how hard it is to measure Linux adoption rates are the Linux fan boys who want to imply how great Linux is doing and how it's gaining popularity.

Linux has made progress in a lot of areas, but it hasn't made much, if any, on the desktop in the last few years. Look at the chart at http://counter.li.org/ and it's pretty easy to see.

But hey - I apologize if you could understand my post. I forget that things like common sense are getting more and more rare on sites like this one each day. Because, yes, clearly, when I said both that I use Ubuntu and nobody uses Linux I meant either that I do not exist or that Ubuntu is not Linux. Myself, and everyone else here, would like to thank you for taking the time to point out the silliness of my irrational ramblings. You, good sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.

Re:Sounds Like BS to me....

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, maybe the numbers are stagnant because most people willing to report in using Linux are people that generally happen to be tech savvy and know more about Linux than your average Joe? For every geek saying "I run Linux" there's a thousand average joes not knowing about the Linux counter, and not caring about it.

Linux is growing, no denying that. Linux is also getting better and better every year. It wouldn't surprise me if it end up being the dominant system as soon as 2010, especially as Vista is such a major screwup. But, only time will tell. The only thing I know for sure is that once Linux go mainstream, the US and Europe will be among the last to use it.

Re:Sounds Like BS to me....

[Anonymous Coward]

....nobody uses Linux on the desktop. Except for me, my old College roommate, and maybe half a dozen other people I know. It's NOT a large market-share, but saying that it is nonexistant is silly.

440629

[hockey1doug]

I am registered Linux user # 440629. I also use FreeBSD.

Users or admins ?

[billcopc]

I have several boxes running Linux, but I wouldn't describe myself as a Linux user. I'm still a Windows he-bitch on the desktop, but I'm 110% Linux on the server (or at worst, BSD). I still hate Xorg and everything that links to it, so I don't expect to set my default boot to Linux anytime soon. Seriously, begone with the legacy client-server model, it's filth!

The answer is easy

[celtic_hackr]

The actual number is easy to determine.

1) Put up a web poll, making sure to have one of those capchas that only spiderbots can figure out and a validation routine to prevent the same IP from flooding the poll.

2) Since, no one will know about the poll unless you tell them, capture some dead windows machines and email every mail address on the web. Include some reference to "V1agr4".

3) Take the number of respondents who say they use Linux and divide that by 0.03, since we know we will only get a 3% response from any poll. Add to that the number of mail addresses that refuse to accept our mail, and VOILA! We've got the Counted Users Worldwide of Linux (CUWL)!

4) Profit! (/. obligatory step)

In other news....

[Anonymous Coward]

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

Einstein's thoughts on the subject

[steve263]

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." -- Albert Einstein

How about +0 wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

The first post I saw were mickey-takes. Linux users are often secure enough in their capability to take themselves lightly.

It's the stupid arsehole MS evangelists afraid of losing power or being proven "wrong" (because they've said "MS is always the best!"? Never really understood them) or even having to learn something new. THEY can't see an attack on MS withouth foaming.

Where Linux evangelists may come across badly is when you bad-mouth the PEOPLE who are leading lights, but then again, people are supposed to be more important than things (see, GEEKS know this, we get bad press because we see it as irrelevant to getting the job done. If only the humanities courses taught it too).

No, you do it like this:

[Anonymous Coward]

MS five years ago were making a profit. the next year b and the year after that c. Extrapolate what this turns up as today as X. Plot their actual profit Y. Now, (X-Y)/cost of linux gives you the numbers of installed base that should result in these losses.

Linux is free, so that's "INFINITY".

Hey, if the *AAs were doing the maths it would (AllOfMP3 owing more than a years' Russian GDP...)

Be that as it may

[WindBourne]

there are a LOT of pure windows users here on /.. Just look at the modding and meta modding that occurs. Those are not just 1-2 ppl from MS doing all those.

Re:Be that as it may

[fractoid]

I'd suggest you misunderstand Windows users as a whole. Apple users? They love Apple. Linux users usually love either the ideal of open source, or their particular distro. But Windows users? They couldn't give a rat's. They use Windows because it's what came with the PC, and because it works with all their games and mp3s and pron and stuff. I've very seldom met a Windows enthusiast - and the few I've met have been that way as a self-defense against all the retarded zealotry that's been shoved in their face over the years (Yes, iKoolaid-drinkers, I'm looking at you!)

The only reason I can see a Windows-er downmodding an anti-Windows or pro-something-else post is that it's ad hominem against anyone not using the poster's $flavourofchoice.

Microsoft AD at this story

[bruno.fatia]

Anyone else see the irony of this screen shot?

Re:hmm. flame bait.

[ekimminau]

You forgot to mention the inevitible reference to Bill Gates being Hitler reincarnated and George Bush being either the anti-christ or responsible for the restoration of the Nazi party by some liberal facist who wishes both were true.

No way!

[Anonymous Coward]

> and we'll conclude 18% of the world uses the CowboyNeal Microthreaded Kernel fork of Planet Nine

Pluto isn't a planet any more!

Besides, I bet he uses some weird version of Plan 9 :-)

Re:No way!

[rubycodez]

CowboyNeal's planet nine is Urtaint, right next to Uranus.

modified Ballmer index

[cli_rules!]

yeah, how about we just drudge up microsoft bob again too? if that's the best you linux idiots have it's going to be an easy victory.

Steve,
Thanks for pointing that out! How about:

(20,000 * chairs_thrown_count) + (5000 * pottymouth_word_count) + (50 * num_times_MSBob_disabled) + (1 * num_AC_posts_by_Ballmer)

Unsure about how it'll skew the numbers, but good thinking!

Duh

[matt me]

Everyone knows linux users are irrational, a class of number of which there exists so many that their number is uncountably infinite.

difficult, not pointless

[Yfrwlf]

Pointless? You mean, difficult to obtain, but all statistics are not completely pointless. Finding out how many users use Unix, Linux, OS X, Windows Vista, Windows XP, etc etc, is not pointless. If software companies, for example, have this information they can potentially better decide what "platform" to create software for.

But he's not

[briancnorton]

But he's not using Linux. He's using tivo. (or comparable) Tivo is the Linux user. Counting appliances using linux is about as fruitless as counting me as a reader of the Minneapolis star-gazette because their headline appeared on Google News one day.

Re:But he's not

[ArsonSmith]

So are you saying that most people aren't Windows users they are actually Explorer.exe users? I guess I'm not a Linux user either because I only use bash and X. What would make me a "Linux user" then. Perhaps if I turn my self into a piece of hardware, then I could be a Linux user.

Re:But he's not

[Killer Gentoo]

OK, so if you use a Cellphone/PDA that has Windows Embedded on it, then you are not a Windows User?

So, if you buy a Dell, and that dell has Windows Preinstalled, you are not a Windows User?

How shall we count them?

[PPH]

Do TiVo users count?

And what are we counting? Desktops? Servers? Back where I used to work, we had a mixed e-mail infrastructure. There were literally hundreds of Exchange servers in the data center, but it was pointed out that a couple of Sun servers were handling similar e-mail volumes for the engineering department.

Re:How shall we count them?

[revengebomber]

More importantly, if I have a double-size toaster running Linux, does it count the same as two single-size toasters running Linux? I've got twice the bagelflops...

Usage Numbers and Game Development

[dorath]

While it might be infeasable to count the number of people using linux, it would be nice to be able to point some game development companies at a nice, large digit and say could we get some openGL games, please?

While I'd love to see more native linux clients out there, right now I'd be thrilled to just see more games using openGL because they seem to work so much better with WINE.

Re:Of Red Hats and Yellow Pants

[HermMunster]

I'm sorry pal, but Linux is a success on the desktop. Through open and legitimate customer distribution of information Linux has gained a huge forward momentum. There are things that Linux does on the desktop that Microsoft can't hope to even come close to, even with the best hardware.

The problems with the guys that wrote the article are simply spreading FUD. Nothing more. Of course you can count and those counts are being done. As I stated there are approximately 100 million installs world-wide. That number will probably double to triple by the end of 2008. That's no failure.

You are just as miserable as they are. You see your future being put asunder by a superior product. Time will tell. I've been in this business for over 20 years and I know a success when I see it. Windows is on the slide. Linux is progressive. Windows will do nothing but loose share. Linux will do nothing but gain.

The more people know Linux is out there winning on desktops all over the world the more will understand that Linux is an winner overall. With a superior kernel, with hundreds of thousands of minds participating (world-wide), with superior minds coming up with superior products at a significantly faster rate of development, Linux can do nothing but win and win in a big way.

Microsoft is a convicted monopolist. They are being held to task on that every day. People all over the world are letting others know how and what Microsoft did and what they continue to do today by spying on you, by extorting legitimate users, by creating lock-in mechanisms in order to further their monopoly--you name it, they are doing it and it is bad.

You pal, are just strange. Don't post responses to my posts because you sound cowardly.

Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody uses Linux other than a small portion of techies out there. It is BY FAR not the dominant OS and the whole world knows that except of course for the techies reading Slashdot, who seem to be on another planet.

Centralised Registration

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps they should "encourage" all Linux users to enter a code before they can use the system, and track it on a central database?

They could make all the codes start with FCKGW, or something.

At least the user count would be quite accurate...

Three

[chinhnt2k3]

M$ will die soon!

My question...

[Psyjack]

Who cares? Why is there a concern from anyone as to what OS someone else uses? In the greater scheme of things, does it really matter? No.

Re:My question...

[BobMcD]

Let me guess, you're a BeOS user? (ducks)

There is strength in numbers. If you're part of a large market, you'll see lots of products to choose from. If you're part of a fringe minority, you'll see almost none.

How to Measure a Large Open Source System

[Anonymous Coward]

Although not specificially about Linux, this article (PDF 1MB) How to Measure a Large Open Source Distributed System discusses some of these same problems quantitatively, and demonstrates that carefully-tempered download logs can be used to estimate the number of active users of a system.

Response to "there is no Linux--Yourmomisfas. . .

[ProudPenguin01]

" there is no Linux" :-P" -Yourmom
Yeah, Bill , Just keep on believing that "there is no Linux". We (Linux Users) are stronger than you think, we are not afraid of our computers. We rule them. They don't rule us. Our code is free and open. We are not afraid of it being seen. Because it wasn't stolen from you. . . . But, more than likely by you. Let your track record speak for itself. Read the news. Microsoft tried to weasel out of the Novel deal. What does that tell you???

Really? wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this how you "advocate" software freedom? Just curious.

Linux use below 1 % of world share

[xhydra]

We all love Linux but we must accept the truth going forward. Linux has miniscule usage among ordinary users.

Have a look at the web stats for one of my sites here.

The number of users running linux is less than 1%.