Dell to Offer More Linux PCs

head_dunce writes "According to this article, Mark Shuttleworth from the Ubuntu camp says Dell is seeing a demand for the Linux-based PC and, "There are additional offerings in the pipeline." I'm starting to see flashbacks of the days when Microsoft partnered up with IBM to gain control of the desktop market. Will other Linux flavors find their way to the likes of Lenovo or HP, etc, or will Ubuntu claim the desktop market working with other PC manufacturers?"

Comments

Advantage lost

[ozmanjusri]

Dell's got to be hating this.

That massive discount Microsoft gives them over smaller OEMs is Dell's biggest competitive advantage. Now they'll have to compete more directly with local whitebox builders.

They don't have much choice though. The local box builders have already switched to Ubuntu as their OS of choice. Dell has to match them or be swamped.

Re:Advantage lost

[ZakuSage]

Much as I love Ubuntu, I've not heard of any small or even medium sized OEM looking to market to the everyday PC consumer "switching to Ubuntu as their OS of choice".

Re:Advantage lost

[Anonymous Coward]

I think if they were to hate anything about this, it would be Mark running his mouth off about their internal company information.

Re:Advantage lost

[b1ufox]

Which are these smaller OEM's BTW, who have shifted to Ubuntu already?
I am not aware of any?

Can you please elaborate?

Re:Advantage lost

[Poppler]

Hating it? I don't see their competition selling desktop Linux to home users.

Re:Advantage lost

[olyar]

Actually, I would say a much larger advantage is that they have a good name. Businesses want to buy PC's that will work and that come ready to set up quickly. If you buy from Dell (or HP) you know that will be the case. Buy from others and you never know.

Their brand is their advantage, not the few bucks per machine discount they can get from Microsoft. That helps profits, but its not what keeps them in business.

Re:Advantage lost

[ozmanjusri]

I am not aware of any?
Can you please elaborate?

Look in your local newspaper.

There'll be a dozen shopfront computer stores advertising pre-built computer systems. They build them in their backrooms and sell them to local families and businesses. Those guys pay wholesale prices of about AU$160.00 for Vista home premium, AU$320.00 for Office 2007 Standard and AU$50.00 for Norton Antivirus.

They can retail a Sempron/Ubuntu home or small office system for less than it costs them in wholesale MS/Antivirus licenses.

That's what Dell (and the second tier vendors) are scared of. If they drop the ball now, and let these little guys get a big enough foothold in the home/SME market, they could be in trouble.

Re:Advantage lost

[WIAKywbfatw]

Dell's got to be hating this.

That massive discount Microsoft gives them over smaller OEMs is Dell's biggest competitive advantage. Now they'll have to compete more directly with local whitebox builders.

They don't have much choice though. The local box builders have already switched to Ubuntu as their OS of choice. Dell has to match them or be swamped.

And there was me thinking that Dell's biggest competitive advantages were its huge purchasing power on all components, not just operating systems, and its brand-name recognition.

I guess I was wrong. Who knew that Dell was paying the same price for CPUs, RAM, hard drives, etc that outfits run out of the owners' garages were paying?

Re:Advantage lost

[1u3hr]

If you buy from Dell (or HP) you know that will be the case. Buy from others and you never know.

If by "others" you mean a name randomly chosen from the Yellow Pages, yes. But if it's a local vendor who you can talk to and check his references, it becomes a much safer proposition, and a lot less hassle than dealing with an enormous company that makes you press a dozen buttons on your phone before you can speak to anyone, who is never the same person who you talked with before and so you have to explain your problem over and over again.

Re:Advantage lost

[Your.Master]

Ha! You didn't count on the fact that my hometown is incredibly tiny, and therefore has no such advertising.

Re:Advantage lost

[ozmanjusri]

Just so you don't feel left out, here's an Aussie example for you to look at... http://www.cheapestpc.com.au/

Re:Advantage lost

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.hgspot.hr/ - 'Ubuntu Linux u HGspotu'
http://www.hgspot.hr/komponente.aspx?grupa=1 - more Ubuntu than Windows configurations (left frame indicates top 3 products to be ubuntu based configurations)

Re:Advantage lost

[VagaStorm]

The margin on hardware is much smaller than it is on software, MS can give maybe a 70% discount whereas they might be able to get 10% on hardware.

Re:Advantage lost

[WIAKywbfatw]

The margin on hardware is much smaller than it is on software, MS can give maybe a 70% discount whereas they might be able to get 10% on hardware.

Dell might be able to get 10 percent on hardware?

If you think that the difference between the price that Dell pays for the average piece of hardware and the price that a one-man operation would pay for the same hardware is 10 percent then you're nuts.

Dell undoubtably buys directly from manufacturers. When it buys Intel CPUs, it buys them directly from Intel. When it buys Belkin accessories, it buys them directly from Belkin. When Dell buys, there's no middleman.

When a one-man operation buys Intel CPUs or Belkin accessories then it buys them from a distributor. There might be one, two or maybe even three such middlemen between it and Intel or Belkin. Each middleman takes a cut, which drives the price that the one-man operation pays for the products higher and higher. How much is that cut? Well, 10 percent per distributor would be a fair figure.

(If you want to get a fairer idea of distribution costs, take the cost per 1,000 units that is typically quoted regarding CPUs and compare that to the typical single unit street price. Allow a small (maybe 5-10 percent) profit for the vendor and you'll see that the distribution chain takes a fair chunk along the way.)

And all that's before you talk about how much of each product is bought by Dell. There's a big difference between maybe buying 5 CPUs a week through the channel and buying almost 200,000 a week directly from the manufacturer.

In 2006, Dell accounted for 16.1 percent of the 59 million PCs shipped worldwide. Last year, Dell shipped 950 million PCs.

Are you really telling me that you think that, with that sort of buying power, you don't think that Dell gets deals that give it a more than 10 percent hardware cost price advantage?

Re:Advantage lost

[drgs100]

You make very good points but you forget senior managment make these purchasing decisions.

Re:Advantage lost

[jimicus]

I very much doubt that.

10 years ago, there were lots of such small businesses - but they can't compete with Dell on price and never really could. The thing is, when most of your customers aren't terribly Internet savvy and/or don't feel comfortable with mail order, that doesn't much matter. You're only competing with other, similar stores with similar overheads in your area.

TBH, I'd welcome a return to there being a number of small high-street computer retailers in almost any town - granted, many were appalling, but there were always one or two which were actually pretty good. And mail order doesn't help when you need the item NOW, or it's so small that it will cost more to ship than it's worth.

Re:Advantage lost

[Gerzel]

Why would Dell be threatened?

Wouldn't customers stay with them because of their superior support and reliability, and don't forget the "Dude, you're getting a Dell!" guy.

Seriously, even if Ubuntu becomes the Evil Overlord Operating System in fifteen years time that Windows is today I'd still be happy because it proves that the EOOS can be taken down, or at least challenged.

I never liked the argument that one OS allows for easy development because all an OS is is a collection of semi-automatically run applications that help you do things on the computer.

Re:Advantage lost

[pimpimpim]

Not even that, here in Germany the company that owned and now rebranded the european wal-mart stores is every now and then selling 300 euro boxes with lindows or something of that kind, simple celeron, 500 GB disks, full multimedia etc.

Re:Advantage lost

[Anonymous Coward]

Zazz had a Athlon 64 with Ubuntu three weeks back. Got one!

http://www.zazz.com.au/pastproducts.php?past=530

Re:Advantage lost

[sydsavage]

Here's one off the top of my head here in Phoenix. They were committed to going all linux (SuSE, at the time) at least 3-4 years ago.

http://www.redsevenlinux.com/

Re:Advantage lost

[richlv]

Dell accounted for 16.1 percent of the 59 million PCs shipped worldwide. Last year, Dell shipped 950 million PCs.

that's some weird math ;)

Re:Advantage lost

[westlake]

There'll be a dozen shopfront computer stores advertising pre-built computer systems. They build them in their backrooms and sell them to local families and businesse

It may be different in Australia...

The storefront builders are as defunct as the dodo here.

They are not to be found in the phone book. They are not advertising in the metro news or the local shopping papers. They have long since disappeared from the bulletin boards at the neighborhood mini-marts.

The shift to the laptop may have been the finish.

But the market for PCs in the states has always been strongest at mid-line and not at the bottom - and at the bottom you are competing with Vista at WalMart's OEM price, and at mid-line with HP and Dell.

Re:Advantage lost

[CastrTroy]

The one advantage of Bob and Jimbos is that you can get "exactly" what you want. And all you have to do is ask for it. With Dell and others, it's often very hard to configure a computer that has everything you want, and only what you want. They insist on shipping every computer with a keyboard and mouse. Even if I never plan on using them. Then they go and install a bunch of crapware. I still buy my computers from Bob and Jimbo, because it means I can get a clean computer, with just windows, an actual windows install CD, and no crapware included. The crapware that they do include (DVD burning etc.) come on separate CDs, and can be uninstalled, or if you do a system format when you get the machine, not installed at all if you like.

Re:Advantage lost

[WIAKywbfatw]

Sorry, you're right. This is what happens when you do maths in your head after pulling an all-nighter.

The number should be 9.5 million. All the other numbers are correct though.

Re:Advantage lost

[dlZ]

They don't have much choice though. The local box builders have already switched to Ubuntu as their OS of choice. Dell has to match them or be swamped.

I'm a local box builder, and I wish I could switch to Ubuntu as my OS of choice for new machines, but then I wouldn't do any business. I hate to say it, but people come in, and ask for Windows right off the bat. A lot of people don't even know about Linux. The other day we had a get together, and someone jumped in when I said I don't have Windows boxes in the house and asked if I run DOS, because it's the only other OS. She knew what an OS was, but had no idea what Linux was.

Re:Advantage lost

[ug333]

I know one of the people who does this, and as soon as you start moving any volume (10 PCs/year +), you aren't paying retail for windows. Or at least he doesn't.

Re:Advantage lost

[ToriaUru]

But your average Mom-Dad combo buying a computer will stick with Windows I'd bet. Just figuring 'oh it's easier, it runs games for the kid, and oh it's so pretty'. They don't give a crap that they're locking themselves into a O/S that demands a ransom. It'll be their kid likely who says 'let's dual boot with linux!' I'd bet.

Re:Advantage lost

[Crayon Kid]

Not even that, here in Germany the company that owned and now rebranded the european wal-mart stores is every now and then selling 300 euro boxes with lindows or something of that kind, simple celeron, 500 GB disks, full multimedia etc.

But it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It is quite possible not a pro-Linux move, just a lower-the-total-cost move.

AFAIK, in the UE there's generally a law implemented in many member countries, saying you must sell retail PC's with a "working" OS on them. So some retailers make the cost a bit more attractive to buyers by slapping Linux (doesn't matter which one), or even FreeDOS, on the machines. It doesn't matter, most people will never even run them, will override with a Windows install ASAP.

So they get to slash the cost of Vista/Office/antivirus licenses, which makes for 100-200. Many buyers will already have copies of their own they can move over to the new computer, albeit with a little hassle with Microsoft activation and such.

I'm not saying "most buyers", it's not a trend or anything, it's just an occasional method of price cutting that appeals to some people. So you can't necessarily read a Linux trend in it.

Re:Advantage lost

[bberens]

I realize he didn't specify this in his post, but I sort of assumed he was talking about small businesses. Large businesses are going to get major discounts from major OEM distributors, site licenses for windows, etc.

Re:Advantage lost

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I am not sure DELL will lose the massive discount. If it does, then it will start pre-loading FireFox and OpenOffice in the Windows machines.

No vendor likes to compete on price alone. Every vendor would like to have some kind of product differentiation in the market place to set himself apart. One of the most important product differentiation a PC maker could have would be to tout "my PCs use the safer browser FireFox!" in the ads. The claim may or may not be true. The claim could be contested by other vendors. But it is a differentiation and it will work in an ad campaign. Why no major PC vendor is doing this, then? They lose massive MSFT subsidy to preload only MSFT and its vassals like Intuit.

So in effect MSFT is not so free to withdraw the subsidy or even to punish DELL for selling Ubuntu. DELL does have some bargaining power in its ability to provide a marketshare for non MSFT products in the Windows universe.

All OpenOffice needs is a small but significant marketshare, like 5% or 10%. Once FireFox reached 5 to 10% marketshare, the websites had to retool and make sure they are compatible with it, and started taking out the IE only hacks, and the attitude changed from, "We dont support anything other than IE" to "we must support Firefox or we lose 10% of the visitors". Similar changes would take place in the Office arena. The moment people start demanding true inter operability between MS Office and Open Office, the game becomes wide open. Since DELL is in a position to boost the marketshare of OpenOffice by 5% quite easily it can play hardball and get the MSFT wholesale price and sell Ubuntu. HP/Compaq knows this too. The question is, will HP also decide to sell Ubuntu or negotiate secret extra discounts (compared to DELL) for not doing ubuntu.

Re:Advantage lost

[Godji]

Nonsense. It's their brand that sells, not their prices (which are high). I'm about to buy a Dell laptop because it's a Dell. Being a Dell it will have a good build quality, it will be quiet, it will be durable, fantastically supported, and Linux-friendly. If it were 50 bucks more expensive (read: no discount on the Windows crap), I'd still buy the Dell. BTW, I'm not buying for myself, otherwise I'd buy one with FreeDOS or Linux and avoid the issue altogether.

Re:Advantage lost

[pboyd2004]

Yes and no. The problem with local shops is that they might not be there tomorrow and rarely (if ever) offer 24/7/365 tech support. That is the real reason that most people buy from the big boys. They know that when something breaks they have a number to call and get it fixed.

Re:Advantage lost

[ClosedSource]

My experience with small companies is that they don't actually give you what you paid for and it's almost impossible to return the computer when you discover what's missing. Large companies have a national reputation they have to protect, the small fry can just wait for the next sucker.

Re:Advantage lost

[GweeDo]

I work for a small/medium size company (around 160 employees nationwide, but the bulk are in one area) and we go through Dell. Saying they make you press a dozon buttons on the phone to speak with anyone is just a lie. I have the direct extension to my account rep and can get her quickly any time during the day.

While Dell does have their problems, getting a hold of support and account reps is not one of them for Small Business purchases.

Re:Advantage lost

[JohnBailey]

Well.. except for the little fact that Dell and the other big multinationals tend to buy in incredible bulk, so get better prices than even the normal wholesale price for components. So they still have an edge. A small vendor may sell a few dozen PCs a month, but the Dells of the world sell thousands. Dell can also go direct to the manufacturer instead of giving a wholesaler a cut.

I doubt Dell is scared at all.

The local guy is not going to have a big well advertised brand which the customer is going to want. I've seen so many people go to a chain store and buy the own brand garbage or big brand systems again and again. If they are very lucky they get a good one and it stays working. If not, they just go back again and get another because the salesman tells them this is the best deal.

While the little guy could go out of business next week, a big company is perceived to be more stable. To most users, there are no upgrade options once it leaves the shop, so the idea that someone else could fix it is not even considered, and customised parts or cases emphasise the point.

And the final advantage is the bundle deal. The big guys can sweeten the deal with a cheap digital camera, a scanner/printer/fax, a bunch of "free" apps etc. The little guy will usually only pre install what the customer specifies and charges for each one. Even though the latter deal is better, the big name deal looks better.

Dell have a big market. The people who just want a computer and think one is as good as another. This doesn't really cross over to the people who want more input into what they are buying. Both can exist in parallel.

Even with Linux instead of Windows, they will still have a niche. Its like the stereo market. Some will happily buy an all in one system with cheap plastic speakers and bell wire connections, others will go for a more upmarket all in one, others will go for separates of the same brand, and still others will carefully pour over reviews and talk on forums so they can get the best match of components they can afford. All markets earn enough to provide the competition and the diversity that keep these markets in existence.

Re:Advantage lost

[boyko.at.netqos]

Dell's three biggest competitive advantages are Microsoft's discount, purchasing power on components, brand name recognition, and surprise. Dell's *four* biggest competitive advantages are Microsoft's discount, purchasing power, brand, surprise, fear, and ruthless efficiency. Dell's *five* biggest advantages are the discount, purchasing power, brand, surprise, fear and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to Michael Dell... Our *six*... no... *Amongst* Dell's competitive advantages... are such elements as the discount, purchasing power... I'll come in again...

Re:Advantage lost

[anexkahn]

I think he got an extra zero in there somewhere

Re:Advantage lost

[DragonWriter]

Dell's got to be hating this.

That massive discount Microsoft gives them over smaller OEMs is Dell's biggest competitive advantage.

And, with Linux, their size and ability to shoulder the cost of making sure everything works together, and to work with manufacturers to get the components they want supported if they aren't already, and to thereby provide a reliable experience will be a big competitive advantage. While support costs might scale by number of units sold, the cost of making sure it works for the average user is probably more like a fixed cost per computer model. Dell can sell a lot more of any one configuration than a local storefront assembler.

Plus, it gives them more leverage with Microsoft in negotiations, and some security in the event that Microsoft ever stumbles.

Plus, as they gain experience with Linux, they have a lot more freedom to customize than they do with Windows, since they can modify essentially anything in the distribution so long as the source is available, rather than having to negotiate permissions to anything beyond MS's standard permissions with Windows. And here, again, scale compared to other PC manufacturers works in their favor, since the cost of that customization scales with the degree of customization, not the number of units sold.

Re:Advantage lost

[tehcyder]

In 2006, Dell accounted for 16.1 percent of the 59 million PCs shipped worldwide. Last year, Dell shipped 950 million PCs.

Typo, I know, but it was amusingly bad luck that you emphasised it so heavily.

Re:Advantage lost

[1u3hr]

I have the direct extension to my account rep

Not everyone is that privileged. And please, don't call me a liar.

Re:Advantage lost

[sholsinger]

People who buy PCs from local 'box builders' as you called them do so for reasons other than price. They do it because they don't trust Dell/HP/Lenovo etc. They don't like the service they've received from the major OEMs. So they eat the price by going to local people they know they can call tomorrow or visit tomorrow if something goes wrong. Local 'box builders' don't get custom motherboards made on the cheap. They don't buy processors in bulk from the manufacturer. They order from E-tailers or if they're lucky they've found wholesalers that beat out the E-tailers. I've known a few that sell Dell re-furbs. But that isn't as lucrative. Local guys can't beat the price that Dell offers in its specials. $200-$300 NEW computers are unheard of locally. They may claim its new, but its probably a used box that has been refurbished. Which means nothing more than re-formatted and air-dusted on the inside.

The point is that people who shop at local builders aren't doing so for price.

Re:Advantage lost

[cbreaker]

I'd venture to say they don't ask for Windows. They ask for "a computer" and they *assume* that means Windows.

They don't know any better.

Re:Advantage lost

[RAMMS EIN]

``Businesses want to buy PC's that will work and that come ready to set up quickly. If you buy from Dell (or HP) you know that will be the case.''

I wish. Friends of mine have bought laptops from Dell that had known flaky hard drives. Dell replaced them, replaced them again, and again. But they were still the same flaky harddrives. Another friend of mine bought an IBM PC (not the original model!), thinking that, that way, he would have quality, reliable hardware. A number of crashes and three replaced CPU coolers later, he's given up that dream. I myself used to have an HP laptop whose fan, harddisk, and power connector failed. The only brand-name computer that has never failed me was the iBook I sold a few months ago.

Re:Advantage lost

[dlZ]

I'd venture to say they don't ask for Windows. They ask for "a computer" and they *assume* that means Windows.

They actually do ask for Windows by name. Many times people will ask for a "Windows XP" or a "Windows Vista" and not for a computer. I've also had people ask to buy a "Dell" when they meant just a computer. I still hear IBM Compatible once in a long while, too. Lately people have been asking if we can still sell them Windows XP because they don't want Windows Vista, but they're still asking specifically for Windows.

We do offer Linux, but most people just get confused when they find that out, even after we explain it to them. And the first thing they normally ask is if they make MS Office for it. When we tell them about Open Office, they either aren't interested (they want Word, and that's that) or they've had a very bad experience with an older version of it or they say someone else has. They don't understand compatibility or any of the other things. To them, the only word processor on the market is MS Word, the only spreadsheet is MS Excel, etc.

Re:Advantage lost

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? TLLTS had a guy from Dell (the head of their Linux division, I think) essentially saying that. I don't remember exactly what he said off the top of my head, but he did say the current lines that they offer Linux on are due to be discontinued soon and there will be new Linux lines to replace them. The guy also said that the uptake had been close to what they were expecting, though he didn't say what that figure was.

Re:Advantage lost

[cbreaker]

"Many times people will ask for a "Windows XP" or a "Windows Vista" and not for a computer."

That's so ridiculous that I think you're full of shit.

Re:Advantage lost

[evilviper]

Please, Dell still gets computer parts at a much bigger discount than Bob and Jimbo's Super Tech Computers Inc does.

No they don't, manufacturers are selling to OEMs at very low margins already. They're going to sell at a loss to Dell.

Dell appears to pay about $60 for an OEM copy of Windows. No amount of hardware discounts is going to make up for $60 software on a $200 PC.

Tiny shops have the advantage of being able to switch suppliers on a whim, and smaller quantities is a big gain. You can just look around for companies trying to clear a few hundred of last year's model of PSU/motherboard/etc. and get it below cost. Dell absolutely can't do that.

Re:Advantage lost

[dlZ]

That's so ridiculous that I think you're full of shit.

I take it you don't work with the home retail sector in regards to computers, eh?

Re:Advantage lost

[jcgf]

They're going to sell at a loss to Dell.

If Dell is their biggest customer (likely) how could they stay in business selling to them at a loss?

Re:Advantage lost

[evilviper]

Simple typo. Obviously they're NOT going to sell at a loss.

Re:Advantage lost

[Bill Walker]

I just bought an Ubuntu PC from Dell a couple of days ago. I looked around at a bunch of smaller retailers, and Dell was still cheaper by about 20% for equivalent hardware. I don't think the OEM OS is their only discount, not to mention other economies of scale.

Re:Advantage lost

[Anonymous Coward]

Hilarious. That's the first thing that's made me laugh all afternoon. :) Thanks.

Re:Advantage lost

[zdude255]

This is still only partially true. Large web places such as TigerDirect and Newegg can buy from Intel and other manufacturers. Processors are sold in quantities of 1000, so having a physical shop can sometimes be a liability. 1 web site can easily manage a large stock in a central warehouse where it is harder to do this with a chain of stores.

good.

[overcaffein8d]

glad i waited.

oh, and i really don't know if other OEMs will start to sell Linux... but where will linux go if they don't advertise it? linspire was a good idea-- they advertised, and (some) people bought. [though, i would have marketed it differently]. right now, i fear that it's only /.'ers and the like who even know that dell is selling linux--and what linux is in the first place.

Re:good.

[realdodgeman]

A post on ideastorm suggests that Dell should advertise Ubuntu computers. It is currently "under consideration". The same goes for the idea of moving Ubuntu computers together with the ordinary ones at the webshop, and adding Ubuntu to their "choose an operating system" page.

Re:good.

[greedyturtle]

You don't need to advertise it, just sell it for 50 cheaper. People will find it.

Re:good.

[cbreaker]

I think other vendors will start to sell mainstream (ie not Workstation class) PC's and notebooks with Linux installed. While there's probably discounts here and there, Microsoft doesn't give them Windows for free, and they are required to support Windows and other pre-installed software in-house. (That's part of why Dell can get Windows cheap; THEY have to support it.)

I don't really see where Linux will cost them any more, and if Dell decides to really support it, they already have a support organization in place.

The year of change

[phantomfive]

This is awesome. I haven't felt so happy about the computer world since I was trying to get my commodore64 to flash the boarder colors as quickly as possible. We have Dell selling Linux, (and apparently it's selling well), we have Macintosh sales up 33% from the same quarter last year (and that's even WITH people waiting for Leopard to come out), and Vista adoption is slow. Suddenly it looks as though finally the innovation stranglehold that Microsoft has held over us for many years is coming to an end. I'm not saying Microsoft will go away, but cross-platform compatibility will become the rule, not the exception. It will be easy to choose whichever platform you like, without worrying about not being able to run half your applications. Freedom will be a realistic choice.
I suppose it was really inevitable in the long run, but I am happy to see the walls finally cracking.

Re:The year of change

[chuckymonkey]

While I would love to see that come to pass as much as anyone, don't count on it just yet. There is still a very long road ahead and it's going to be painful in many respects and it's still not a sure thing. When five or six major OEMs start to offer a linux distro and the demand stays I'll start to hope, but right now it is just too early to tell.

Re:The year of change

[whoever57]

and Vista adoption is slow

It would be very interesting to know how many copies of Vista have been sold that are not OEM pre-installs. The small number of people that I know that have bought PCs with Vista are dissatisfied with them (one returned the PC). The latest complaint that I heard was that IE does not work properly under Vista.

Re:The year of change

[uncreativ]

I share your excitement for Apple's and Linux's recent success, however that excitement needs to be tempered by the reality that Windows is still the default standard desktop OS. One would think that with a lack luster Vista release and improvements on alternatives we would see real changes in market penetrations, but we're only talking about a couple percent of the entire market adopting MS alternatives. MS still has considerable advantages--namely since we do not yet have interoperability, many apps for businesses are only written for windows. Accounting software in paricular is an example. If all applications were written for Windows, Linux, and OSX such that the OS choice would not affect whether your critical application would run, I suspect many businesses would switch to Linux in a heartbeat, with the rest split between Windows and OSX. MS Access is only available on Windows--and many custom/highly specialised applications are written in Access. Exchange is unfortunately still the best option for shared calendaring. In business, the most successful company doesn't always have the best product to sell. Bill Gates was good at business more than technological innovation. Many of those business practices are just good business when you are small, but become barriers to competition once you have obtained a monopoly. MS is still good at business strategy. Does anyone really anticipate Office for Linux? How come we have no Outlook for Mac? Instead you have Entourage that will never have the calendaring features of Exchange. I suspect MS won't write games for OSX or Linux any time soon. With MS's multiple products tied together to the same software platform, it takes a lot to attack that position. Each linux or OSX sale has to overcome multiple MS advantages at once. The only good news is that each conversion does infact attack MS on every front and every product MS makes at once. MS doesn't just lose it's OS, but every other product they make when someone switches away from Windows. You can also be guaranteed MS will not go quietly when the going gets tough.

Re:The year of change

[uncreativ]

before it get's pointed out...oops, entourage does i guess support calendaring/connecting to exchange

Re:The year of change

[damista]

I fully agree with you. MS is far from dead and with what 60? 70? billion dollars in their pockets, they have a lot to throw at us. No, MS is a force that has to be reckoned with for quite some time to come. Sure, history has shown that every empire comes to an end sooner or later but in case of MS I'm afraid it will be later than sooner.

I wouldn't want MS to disappear completely anyway. A Mac or Linux monopoly would be just as bad as the MS monopoly is. My "dream" is a market in which MS holds no more than 50%. This is enough incentive for software companies to write their apps multi plattform and hardware manufactures to offer drivers for all major plattforms and not just Windows.

In regards to your last sentence, I ask myself if MS will be just as blunt as they were during the Win/OS2-war, when they threatened OEMs who dared to offer OS2 as an alternative to not sell them OEM-Versions of Windows at all. They've done it before and got away with it. So why not now? All they will get is a slap on the wrist and a fine that doesn't deserve to be called that. To really hurt MS, fines mus be in the 10 billion plus range. Everything else is peanuts.

Well, we'll see what will happen. In the meantime, I'm happy to see Dell's experiment be a success.

Re:The year of change

[ozmanjusri]

before it get's pointed out...oops

Don't worry, I don't think anyone will be able to read that far.

Re:The year of change

[Urza9814]

I actually had a friend who bought Vista shortly after it was released hoping it would fix some computer problems they were having, read about it online some, and returned it. Good thing too, turned out the problems were just poor webcam drivers. Woulda been a shame to waste all that money.

Re:The year of change

[yvajj]

I'm guessing you're either a linux or mac fan. I have 2 copies of Vista running, one on my laptop and one on my desktop. Both work flawlessly. I have not experienced any problems with IE. I've used both the 64 bit and 32 bit versions of IE without any problem. The only issue I've run into is that there isn't a 64 bit version of Flash, so I'm forced to use the 32 bit version of IE until Adobe release an update. This isn't really a Vista issue.

Can you back up your claim with specific numbers and details of problems, or are you just spouting FUD?

Re:The year of change

[J.Y.Kelly]

Well I had my first experience of Vista last night, setting up a 2GHz Celeron laptop a friend had just bought which came with Home basic.

Whilst everything worked OK and actually looked pretty good I was hugely unimpressed with how slow it was. Opening an application like firefox took 20-30 seconds and logging a user in or out seemed to take forever. Also, even though vista came pre installed it went through innumerable setup routines when first booted (including at least 2 reboots) such that I could have done a linux install in the same amount of time it took me to get to a desktop.

Were it not for my friend wanting to use a load of kids CDROMS on this machine I'd have swapped it over to linux in a heartbeat and they'd have had a much more usable machine.

Re:The year of change

[minus9]

A flawless operating system and no more problems with IE. This is truly a great day in history.

Re:The year of change

[yvajj]

I'm not surprised your post is modded up... this is after all slashdot. Maybe you should try reading more carefully... I said it "worked flawlessly", meaning I haven't run into any issues; which is surprising considering that it's the initial release without any service pack yet.

This isn't the same as a flawless operating system. I don't believe there is one, and I'm skeptical that there will be one anytime in the near future.

Vista (or any other MS OS) is no more flawless than Linux or OSX. Each have their share of problems and each have their benefits.

Re:The year of change

[malkavian]

The only issue I've run into is that there isn't a 64 bit version of Flash, so I'm forced to use the 32 bit version of IE until Adobe release an update. This isn't really a Vista issue.

In much the same way that it's not a Linux issue that there's no native Photoshop, Outlook and various other apps which Windows users frequently raise as the problem preventing them migrating. The Vista updates will seep through in time, no doubt. The 'Microsoft Tax' of pre-installed Vista will see the install base grow with no real effort on Microsoft's part. When the market moves on to deprecate XP, I guess I'll move onto Vista.. But I'm in no hurry. Linux does most of what I want (Windows is for games, Linux for everything else). And although Windows also does most of what I want, it lets me make the personal choice that I'd rather use something with no DRM, that I'm ethically happier with.

Re:The year of change

[martinlp]

Your wrong... it is a sure thing. its just a matter of time.

Re:The year of change

[trifish]

.... and then I woke up.

Re:The year of change

[lynx_user_abroad]

I have 2 copies of Vista running, one on my laptop and one on my desktop.

OEM or retail?

The only issue I've run into is that there isn't a 64 bit version of Flash, so I'm forced to use the 32 bit version of IE until Adobe release an update. This isn't really a Vista issue.

There was a time when the 'killer' complaint against Mac and Linux was the lack of applications. If the only issue with them is that Microsoft hasn't release a Mac/Linux version of Outlook, well thats not really a Mac/Linux issue.

Re:The year of change

[CastrTroy]

My boss just bought a new laptop for the guy we hired and we had the same rebooting issue. Reading the screen, it said it was testing system performance, probably to tell whether or not it can run Aero. But that should have been done at the factory. When you get a computer, all you should have to do is enter your name, and everything should be working. My brother bought a Mac Mini last year, after my recommendation, because he wanted a small unobtrusive computer that didn't have so many security problems like the windows machines he's had before. He loves it. Says it's the easiest to use computer he's ever had, and will never go back to windows.

Re:The year of change

[CastrTroy]

Sure MS has lots of money in the bank, and I'm sure that their shareholders want it to stay that way. Remember when Nortel crashed. From $120 a share down to $3 a share. It didn't take long. Not to say that MS is headed that way for sure, but if they have any more projects like the Vista death march, where they spent 6 years building a product that nobody wants to buy, then they are going to have quite a few questions to answer.

Re:The year of change

[Anonymous Coward]

Every OS has flaws, including VISTA, and it worked flawlessly?

I know what you're trying to say but you need to express yourself more clearly.

Re:The year of change

[tguyton]

I had a similar experience a couple days ago. My friend had a brand new Thinkpad R61 with 2.2GHz Core 2 Duo and 2GB of RAM. He said he was having problems with his display and his network card. I booted up the system and was appalled by the fact that it took this new installation of Vista Home basic even longer to start than my 5 year old XP box. Now I've read all the "zOMG teh vista has popups on EVERY CLICK!" comments on /. and was pretty sure that much exaggeration was going on, but I quickly discovered that these comments were barely a stone's throw from reality. I'm very well aware that you can turn off all the popups, but for someone who's just trying to get a network card working on the first boot-up of the machine, it was extremely aggravating. On top of that, the machine was running unbelievably slow. There's no excuse for that - brand new installation, brand new machine - 2GB of RAM! I asked him how attached he was to Vista, and he said he wasn't - he would have chosen XP if there had been an option for it, and he'd just as soon have Linux. I put Ubuntu on there faster than you could blink and set him up with XP in VMWare for running Photoshop and things (yay art school). Ubuntu detected the native resolution for the display no problem. I had to do a little fiddling to get the network card working properly, but it didn't take any longer than five minutes. Long story short, Ubuntu saves the day again ftw! He can now do absolutely everything he needs and wants with his laptop, and it's running at a much more reasonable speed and required very little effort on either of our parts to get it that way.

Re:The year of change

[ericrost]

Well, while I'll agree Exchange is dominant. There is Notes. We use it for a 3000+ person office for shared calendaring and reservation of resources. While (also like Exchange) its not perfect, it does have a linux client (which we don't use, we just switched to XP from 2000 6 months ago).

Re:The year of change

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything you said was wrong. The content, the spelling and the grammar.

Re:The year of change

[east coast]

Suddenly it looks as though finally the innovation stranglehold that Microsoft has held over us for many years is coming to an end.

There is no such thing as innovation stranglehold.

I'm not saying Microsoft will go away, but cross-platform compatibility will become the rule, not the exception. It will be easy to choose whichever platform you like, without worrying about not being able to run half your applications. Freedom will be a realistic choice.

Cross platform compatibility of what? As I see it Apple is the hold out here. Apple feels that virtualization is fine and good as long as it's not their OS. Do you know what sucks more then Microsoft's vendor lockin? Apple's hardware and software lockin. Don't act like the increase in Mac sales is making things better in the face of Apple's attitude towards third parties. If anything, computing would suck worse with Apple riding the high waves.

I suppose it was really inevitable in the long run, but I am happy to see the walls finally cracking.

Again, wait and see.

First off, many products are big on initial release only to die a quick death. I will be confident of the Dell-Ubuntu thing in a couple of years. I don't know why people are expecting a pass or fail on this in the first 100 days. This isn't politics as much as some people make it out to be. It's a product.

Secondly, don't start to think things have really made a turn without software support. Hardware has never been the hang up for Linux overall, at least not the lead hang up. Without software you can make a grade-A system and make it cheap and people will not hold on for long. Look at Atari and Amiga. Fantastic machines with a ton of potential. Where are they today? Oh, that's right, no one ever wrote software for them, for the most part.

Lack of software support is stopping me from becoming a big Linux adopter. I run it as a VM only for right now.

Maybe things will change. I'd go with it. But I'm not going on my own without a bit more happening first.

Re:The year of change

[tguyton]

How is it FUD if I'm just relaying personal experience with Vista? I never said anything about Vista being a horrible operating system or never working for anyone or anything along those lines - I just said it was having problems handling my friend's computer, problems that Ubuntu didn't have. I know Vista has been working just great for a lot of people, and I'm glad they have an operating system that works for them, you included. And just for clarification, how does my post show my incompetence? Incompetence with what?

Re:The year of change

[rjshields]

Can you back up your claim with specific numbers and details of problems, or are you just spouting FUD?

Let me get this straight, you think that just because you didn't have any problems with IE based on 2 installations of Vista, the GP must be spouting FUD? Is it that you think that your Vista experience verifies that Vista/IE would work flawlessly on the almost infinite number of different possible hardware and software configurations, or don't you think that these factors would make a difference?

Re:The year of change

[rjshields]

There's always evolution and ximian-connector, if they're still around. Last time I used them they were full of bugs, mind.

Re:The year of change

[Yfrwlf]

Can you back up your claim with specific numbers and details of problems, or are you just spouting FUD? Troll. Troll because most likely you do know many of the reasons that make FOSS better than CSS already, the way they grant you freedoms, the way they have transparency, are pro-standards and anti-proprietary, and not to mention free. But instead you choose to selectively forget about all that, just so you can be a troll, or a n00b (and if a n00b I apologize for calling you a troll). I'm sure your Vista installs run "OK", for the select tasks you use it for, and if you like it, great. Everyone should use what they enjoy. But, if you ever find the price of your OS annoying, or the restrictions on what you can do with it annoying (try reading the license sometime?), maybe you should check out the great advancements that are being made in the FOSS communities that everyone can use and are not restricted by, including the poor as well as the rich. If you like that kind of freedom, perhaps you may consider even paying money toward that type of progress, instead of toward controlled, dead-end programs and companies. But if you aren't interested in that, and prefer closed source programs, suit yourself. Just don't ask for a challenge as to what the benefits of using FOSS are, because then you'll be called ignorant, or a troll. If it's the former, you no longer are.

Re:The year of change

[battery111]

Let me start out by saying I use a mac as my main machine, and my other two machines are linux. I don't run windows at all. However, Lets not kid ourselves into thinking that once the next system becomes big, be it OSX or Linux, hatred will simply be shifted there. Historically, the big guy in the computer industry is the guy everyone claims to hate, and the underdog is our salvation. Not trying to start a flame war here, just saying . . .

Re:The year of change

[uglydog]

Neither you nor the GP are proving anything. You're merely sharing stories. And that's cool because we may be able to see a trend in what people are saying.
I don't know about the problems people encounter with Vista or in what number, but the industry and users ARE generally disappointed with Vista. And Vista sales are NOT great.

Supporting links:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jh tml?articleID=201201012 - MS lowers Vista sales projections
http://software.silicon.com/os/0,39024651,39164563 ,00.htm - Businesses wary of Vista
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,3928 7855,00.htm - Consumers wary of Vista

Re:The year of change

[JohnBailey]

well, yeah... he can... but except playing most modern games on it. so yeah... don't blow that balloon too much. Your post just shows how incompetent you are. My Vista 64bit running on 2GB RAM is working JUST FINE. I wonder when the FUD ever stops, I mean /.ers are supposed to be tech lovers but it seems that all they have is FUD and hate. Linux might be great and all, but nothing will be successful if it's built on spite. ...Now spice on the other hand, expands your conscienceness. (Only a true sci-fi fan will get me.) Thing is.. There are too many stories just like this kicking around just about any forum to ignore. Microsoft always seem to release software that is beyond the ability of most of the hardware at the time of release. They did it with their PDA stuff, they did it with XP I would imagine, and they definitly did it with Vista.

Those who have had good experiences are either lucky that the combination of hardware they have is better supported and powerful enough, or they specifically combed forums and articles for any pitfalls they can avoid. If I was recommending an OS to anybody for a computer they were buying right now, I'd go for Linux or XP every time depending on the needs of the user. Vista.. no way. There are just too many gotchas right now. In a year or two when the hardware support is there and there are apps that will actually take advantage of Vista, then it would make sense, but for now, its too much pain when things go wrong.

A computer capable or running Vista is going to be close enough to a gamer's PC of a year or two ago from what I've read, while Linux or XP can run happily on a half gig of memory and a modest cheap processor. Not everyone is a gamer, and those that are, are not always going to go for the latest graphics intensive frag fest that needs the latest video card and an insane amount of power. For an enthusiast, this isn't a problem, but for someone looking for a general purpose PC, its overkill.

Slashdotters are tech lovers, but some of us are also realists. Computers are used for more than the latest games. Some people find a system that works reliably and is easy to fix when it does go wrong preferable to spending a significant amount of money on features that are not important to them. Spending $400 on a hot video card is pointless if the most demanding thing you do is a little photo retouching. And non slashdotters are often not interested in the tech, just getting the apps they have paid good money for continuing to work, and to be able to get their work done like they did before.

Re:The year of change

[ThousandStars]

James Fallows had problems, and that post has links to his other posts. He's a relatively famous journalist and technofile; see his first article about computers here. The Atlantic has given him a real tech column -- as opposed to Mossberg's -- that he's been writing for the last few months, and I'd provide a link were they not behind a walled garden.

If that's not enough, you can read the TechWorld article he links to.

Re:The year of change

[Ex-MislTech]

There is still a very long road ahead and it's going to be painful in many respects and it's still not a sure thing. When five or six major OEMs start to offer a linux distro and the demand stays I'll start to hope, but right now it is just too early to tell.

The big OEMs are in bed with M$, I work for one of the biggest, not naming names...

Their fear is the little guy that "loathes" M$ and wants to take M$ down,
little guy IT has no MBA's to feed, no massive megalithic monster to maintain with
giant building campus's and eletric bills the size of small stock offerings.

There is a storm coming, and the $199 PC will just be the start of it.

Mom and Pop home user often just want to do basic mundane open office like things,
the web, and their stocks, etc etc.

The malware/crapware/spyware that has plagued windows is known to be getting worse,
and they have heard on linux is nearly non-existent from their linux/Mac using friends.

Gamers recently found out that World of Warcraft run with Cedega on Linux...

The worm has turned, ppl are sick of the lies, and FUD out of Redmond.

33% Increase in MacIntosh sales in a quarter ????

My opinion...Vista/Malware/Crapware/greed driven pricing are the biggest threat to M$, not Linux.

They shot themselves in the foot, and they don't even get it....yet.

Ex-MislTech

Re:The year of change

[dna_(c)(tm)(r)]

Can you back up your claim with specific numbers and details of problems, or are you just spouting FUD?

I bought a brandnew laptop (HP), it took hours before I could use it (I think it was slightly over 2 Hrs) since it 'installed' from the 'rescue partition'. Then I had not a single productivity app available - OK, not a problem but I had to download OOo Firefox and a bunch of development tools and install them, which took some time too.

I clicked on the shutdown button in the menu. When I tried to fire it up again after a few hours, the battery was empty, Vista shut down due to power failure and the disks had to be checked by the next reboot (about 15-20 minutes). I didn't know that shutdown meant 'hibernate' and that hibernate did not work properly on that laptop. (I'm not sure whether the initial shutdown did a suspend or an hibernate, the PC did not wake up from hibernate, however)

The first DVD played with frequent (about once every 10 minutes) interuptions (about one second duration). Second DVD same thing. Third DVD after pause gave sound but no more image (black screen). No reboot, reload of DVD helped.

Once when it booted, the AV decided it was an opportune moment to start checking every file. It became nearly unworkable. So instead of taking my shiny new laptop to the garden to do some work, I took my 3 year old one with less features but a reasonable OS (Kubuntu) installed on it and got the urgent job done.

So, after all these happy experiences, I decided I had other things to do than demonstrating how slick, productive, enterprisy and powerfull Bill's and Steve's latest and greatest was. So I upgraded to the latest Kubuntu. An hour and a half later I had a working system that really helps me getting my job done. Sorry, the webcam does not work yet. Haven't tried really.

YPMV (Your Perception May Vary)

Re:The year of change

[bobcat7677]

I don't believe the parent is being serious. Everybody I know that has tried Vista from power users and developers to susie homemaker types that only write e-mails to their moms either has already switched back to XP or complains to me that they want to go back. Let me say that again: "literally every single person I know that has tried Vista has switched back or wants to switch back". I see posts like this all the time on the internet from people claiming to like Vista but I am starting to serious doubt their genuineness given that I cannot find a single person in meat space that likes it.

Anyway, wake me up when Dell starts selling more PCs with XP again (including 64bit XP).

Re:The year of change

[vuffi_raa]

I am still waiting for mac and linux distros to have a directX or compatible directX-like platform that makes multimedia apps cross platform and hardware interface universal- if something like that could happen (where all 3 platforms can run the same engine for audio, video and 3d and used shared libraries as you do in directX audio and video apps) then it would seriously be a preference game- right now it really is the one thing that separates windows from the other 2 for me.

Re:The year of change

[phantomfive]

and what's wrong with using the OpenGL, OpenAL, and SDL combination?

Re:The year of change

[vuffi_raa]

none of those support audio and video editing and composing applications the way that directx does- directx libraries are easily accessed by host applications for audio especially and do an incredibly efficient job at handling multiple streams- also it is easier to code to so stable application support for audio apps is pretty much a given-
it is a 1-stop place to do a ton
granted I use open GL for 3d since it is nicer and I actually have the HW to support it nowadays- but for everything else it is all bout directx, otherwise you are stuck with driver conflicts and crashes and HW incompatibilities for peripheral devices (midi, surface boards, input devices etc.)

Re:The year of change

[damista]

Agreed. Another Vista or XBOX desaster will cost them dearly. No matter how hard they try to talk the Vista numbers good, they aren't. But most people don't really see that Vista isn't selling anywhere near as good as they claim. All you read in the news is: "More copies of Vista sold than of any other Windows". Yes, the numbers of Vista look better than those of XP but if you see that the market has more than doubled since 2001, the numbers suddenly don't look that good anymore and in terms of market share, XP sold better than Vista.

The XBOX is another "problem child". Up to 2006, the XBOX (and 360) has caused a loss of about $4 billion. Add another billion they put aside for the 360 problems and the extended warranty, and you see that the XBOX is actually a big problem. Even MS can't afford to write off billion after billion without getting the shareholders to ask questions. I was always a "defender" of MS branded hardware. I've been using MS Keyboards for years and their mice were pretty good too. Though I never had one myself, their game controllers are supposed to pre pretty good pieces of hardware. But with the XBOX, they destroy their reputation in the hardware sector too and that will wake up the last "MS-Warriors".

Let's just wait and see and in the meantime, I'm looking forward to a few more flying chairs and other temper tantrums of Stevie B...

Re:The year of change

[DrIdiot]

Yeah maybe, just maybe, his friend doesn't play games. You know, I think most working adults use their computers for something other than video games. I know it's strange to you, but eventually you'll find said uses as well.

Not surprising...

[Psychopundit]

Based on this guy's experience, it looks like they've already killed off one of the Ubuntu Inspiron notebooks (hopefully for something newer). http://www.dellcommunity.com/supportforums/board/m essage?board.id=sw_linux&thread.id=11156

Re:Not surprising...

[BrianGKUAC]

The Inspiron line has been killed off to be replaced by Vostro... a new series of business laptops that come by default without crapware installed.

Re:Not surprising...

[ZedmanAuk]

The model he ordered was the 1505N which is based on the 1505, which is no longer available on the regular Dell website (only under Linux machines). The 1505 seems to have been replaced with the 1520, so most likely there will be a 1520N soon.

I'm really hoping there will be a XPS M1330 with Ubuntu. That machine would make me ditch my Macbook Pro (I still prefer Linux over Mac OS X, but Mac OS X just works on laptops with things like DVI out, and Linux ... doesn't).

Linux wins the low-cost computing game

[paxmaniac]

Linux must exploit the low cost angle to get reasonable traction in the PC market. People are starting to realize that they don't actually need the latest and greatest hardware specifications to do 95% of what they want to do with a computer.

The new $200 Asus EEE PC could provide a big boost for Linux if it takes off. The price point makes it extremely attractive as a transportible second computer, and it could find some big markets in schools and universities.

Dell and Ubuntu (or other hardware manufacturers) could start a similar revolution in the desktop market with a very low cost and low specification machine. Especially if it is also compact and stylish.

Re:Linux wins the low-cost computing game

[kripkenstein]

Actually, I think the $200 Asus EEE is more the way to go than cheap desktops. Laptops are already outselling desktops, so a mobile offering makes more sense to focus on.

More specifically, the $200 Asus EEE and things like Intel's Mobile Internet Device may bring in a new era of computer use. (The iPhone can be seen as part of that trend, btw - a small, mobile internet-capable machine; also the Nokia Tablet.) The goal should be an affordable (sub-$300) device with an attractive design, that people can use for email, social networking, web browsing, etc. It could take off among college students, for example. In fact this may be the exact goal of Intel's MID partnership with Ubuntu.

Re:Linux wins the low-cost computing game

[lixee]

A 200$ 7" 2Gb gadget is no match for the 150$ full-blown Medison celebrity machine. I also hear it comes with a spam-proof email client. Or was it scam-proof? I forget...

Linux Becomming A Commercial Product - Thank God

[Anonymous Coward]

After so many years of Linux desktops floundering around with developers pointlessly forking projects for their own egos or other useless reasons, a focus on shiny/fun to work on stuff like skinning and pointless 3D effects to 'prove' Linux was 'ahead' of OS X or Windows, and so on.

Now that commercial companies are getting more and more involved with desktop Linux we will start to see shit actually get fixed at a rapid pace. To actually have an open source unix desktop and OS with the polish of OS X and not the mess that KDE and Gnome are right now will be heaven.

Uhhh.. fuck off with your spin.

[QuantumG]

Major vendor preinstalls Linux.. people are buying it.. all you have to contribute is negative doom-saying.

Dumbfuck

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been mucking with Linux before 1.0. Love the way it evolved, but DROP THE FUCKING RHETORICAL QUESTION. You think everyone's a moron like you?

Obligatory

[halfloaded]

Yeah, but does it run... uhhh... Windows?

Re:Obligatory

[CoolVibe]

Sure it does...

- Xen
- VMware
- kvm
- bochs
- qemu
- WINE (well, not an emulator, but hey...)
(and probably some more)

Linux is variety

[sykopomp]

My main concern here is how much attention "smaller" linux distros, and possibly even other kernels and POSIX systems are going to receive when Ubuntu suddenly takes 99% of the linux userbase (or rather, makes it through new users). Will we actually see more stuff getting made that's easily compatible with all distros, or is ubuntu going to set up its own funky standardizing system that pushes any other given distro back weeks on releases?

Re:Linux is variety

[fooqwah]

It's a fair point, but I don't see Ubuntu giving the elbow to other linux distros. Even if it does, the Linux community has a strong sense of exploration, and I think the fact that many people are constantly trying out new distros and moving on to the new 'hot' distro will keep compatibility problems at a minimum

Re:Linux is variety

[sykopomp]

But my concern is that the 90% is going to be composed of people who aren't interested in playing around with other distros. Ubuntu users will want Ubuntu and will become incredibly confused when they see anything different. There's also the whole thing with Ubuntu being obsessed with python. It might mean that every single mainstream linux app in the future is going to be developed exclusively in py. :-\

Re:Linux is variety

[lixee]

Nonsense. The main problems Linux have are the lack of commercial software support and hardware drivers. If Ubuntu takes off (scratch that, it already did) it'll fix both problems and that's obviously not something distro-specific. Then you're forgetting about the GPL. Last but not least, Ubuntu is Debian based and there's no way the GNU zealot over at Debian (I mean that as a compliment) will ever bend to the will of a corp. EVER!

I trust Mark. The guy transpires good faith. He's wasn't solely after money like Gates. He was the man with the vision (how long till we have nerd-cults dedicated to him?).

Re:Linux is variety

[nnm.one]

"My main concern here is how much attention "smaller" linux distros, and possibly even other kernels and POSIX systems are going to receive when Ubuntu suddenly takes 99% of the linux userbase"

It won't happen, new users will enjoy Ubuntu because everything will be so easy for them since the community is working FOR them, later more advanced users will switch away, Ubuntu is nothing more than piggyback riding the success and greatness of Debians (ok so an exception is 'upstart' and the artwork maybe).

I personally like Fedora, and think that it is far more professional than Ubuntu.

Re:Linux is variety

[howlingmadhowie]

(how long till we have nerd-cults dedicated to him?). well, when i think that my mother believes as it is that jesus was an astronaut...

Re:Linux is variety

[Anonymous Coward]

It might mean that every single mainstream linux app in the future is going to be developed exclusively in py. :-\

Yeah, but I'm sure there's a downside too..

Re:Linux is variety

[Anonymous Coward]

I run kubuntu and I do indeed love it but I do not believe that mr Shuttleworth will be the answer to the current state of drivers. In fact, I do believe that the Ubuntu attitude towards drivers will be the yet another incentive to keep with today's appalling state of affairs.

Ubuntu's aim is to build a solid linux-based operating system, which includes good hardware support. Yet, that hardware support is not being conquered through open drivers but through the acceptance of each and any closed, proprietary driver that may or may not run well with linux. In the practical sense, the fact that the community gets support for more hardware is indeed seen as a good thing. Nonetheless, it is only good in shallow terms. The hardware is still locked down and you still do not get to use the hardware in other platforms. How is that any different than today's world, regarding windows? It is the exact same scenario, where the hardware support is held in ransom by a specific platform.

That would not be bad if we knew for a fact that the Ubuntu project would not stop there and push to open the drivers. How do we know that it is in Mark Shuttleworth's intentions to do so? No one does. In fact, if he managed to get Ubuntu to support more hardware than any other linux distribution through the adoption of non-free methods, that would give him an advantage in the market. That advantage could only be maintained if the hardware support is kept closed. So where exactly is there any motivation to change today's state of affairs? There isn't.

So I do not believe that Ubuntu will stay free and that it's policies towards hardware support will contribute to a better world. I can only imagine that, if anything, it will only contribute to the maintenance of the present state of things. Is a ubuntu monopoly better than a microsoft monopoly?

Re:Linux is variety

[Kjella]

Through the GPL it will always be made compatible. I think a dominant player for a short while can make significant imrovements to entrenched cruft. A consequence of the OSS model is that it's really difficult to get a lot of people to change something at the same time, even when it's for the better. Someone with a little "benevolent dictotorship" that says "we're going to change it in our distro, you might want to keep up" may prove useful.

Re:Linux is variety

[CastrTroy]

Do people buying cars only buy Ford, and get confused if you show them a GM? No, because they are both cars, and they drive on the same roads, and you can compare them on features, and price. Same goes for differing Linux distros. The only reason Linux has had trouble breaking into the home computer market is because MS designs windows specifically so it won't drive on the same road as everything else.

Re:Linux is variety

[kazade84]

how long till we have nerd-cults dedicated to him?

*glances at Mark Shuttleworth shrine in the next room*

*quietly closes and locks door*

um... I don't think that will happen.

Re:Linux is variety

[lilomar]

Hey! You! I saw that!






Give me back my shrine!

Re:Linux is variety

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry you got modded "offtopic". If it's any consolation, I thought it was very funny.

Re:Linux is variety

[Yfrwlf]

Well at the very least there will always be a demand for freedom. Regardless of if some Linux distros run closed software, or closed drivers, and others do not, there will still be an ever-growing group wanting more freedom across all OSes and hardware.

The way I look at it is like this: Imagine looking at a software box showing you the features that it offers. Restrictions are not features. If there is another box sitting right next to it that has the same features, but is less restrictive, it will be the better product. Software that grants full freedoms is ultimately what everyone wants, so let competition work it's magic. Intel already has open graphics drivers at least. :)

Re:Linux is variety

[JohnBailey]

I can see your point. And yes. It would be great if there was a big incentive for hardware makers to open their drivers right now. They could be incorporated into the kernel and Linux would really work "out of the box" in a way that someone's grandmother could just pop the disk in and only have to type in a user name and password for everything to be automatically set up. True plug and play. With the right hardware we are nearly there, but getting a bit more would complete it.

There are two ways of going about getting what we want.

1) The vinegar method. "WE DEMAND OPEN DRIVERS RIGHT NOW FOR ALL YOUR HARDWARE. WE DON'T CARE THAT YOU ARE JUST AS INCONVINENCED BY THIS AS WE ARE, AND WE DON'T CARE THAT YOU CAN'T IN MANY CASES OPEN THE PATENTED PRINCIPLES THAT YOU ARE GRANTED BY A THIRD PARTY" (pause to wipe saliva from mouth)
Stick to your principles rigidly and shun any binary blobs that pollute the free open source principle dogmatically. The hardware manufacturers will soon be falling over themselves to court the wallets of the tiny picky minority of Linux users... not! Ogg is more efficient than MP3, but which one does the PMP industry use? although it is slowly getting better.

Result:- Nobody outside the small uber geek community that would put up with the pain of having to carefully research every single bit of hardware, and then spend forever trying to reverse engineer it gives a damn. Forget Linux having a wider audience. Mister open source evangelist.. meet mister door.

2) The honey method. Get a visible presence in the market to the point where the hardware companies are actively producing drivers for Linux as a matter of course so they can sell to a significant market. Get behind the open driver project one of the kernel guys has set up where they write Linux drivers to be included in the kernel under NDA if required, but as source instead of binary blobs. They offer this as a free service to the hardware industry, and a few have already taken advantage of it. There was a time when companies charged for manuals and drivers. Now everything comes on a disk, and can be downloaded for free.

Sell the idea to the hardware guys as a way of reducing their driver creation overheads. They can have the code written for nothing, and the community then maintains the drivers, while still keeping their trade secrets.

Result:-Win win. Everybody happy. Companies become Linux partners instead of being Microsoft minions, and both systems get drivers.

The flaw with Open source purity is that you can only demand that the industry does something if you are big enough to hurt their market if they don't cooperate. Currently, Linux is a gnat attacking an elephant. But it doesn't always have to be that way.

Dell have already said that they will show preference to open source drivers in their Linux hardware choices, and it is easier to make a distro and track problems with open drivers, and if a driver is already in the distro, no set up is needed. So who apart from the hardware makers is benefiting from there being closed drivers in the long term? And even that is not clear, as they benefit from having better drivers and the appearance of being more reliable.

As far as Shuttleworth keeping faith with the Linux community, remember that he doesn't actually own Linux, and as we have seen, the FSF is quite capable of making things awkward for those who like to take without giving back, or any of a multitude of Linux components could break Ubuntu in nothing flat. He may have the most popular ease of use distro at the moment, but there are many waiting in the wings to take over should he do something daft.

It will take time, and it could all go very wrong, but it could also go very right. We will just have to wait and see.

I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other shoe

[Anonymous Coward]

You know...I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other shoe. I'm waiting for a Microsoft rep to go to Dell's offices and say "You know, we really can't give you the volume discounts that we've been offering you if you continue to sell those Linux laptops". Which will be very quickly followed by Dell saying that they are phasing out their Linux line due to "lack of interest" or some such.

This is what Microsoft did with IBM in the mid-1990s when they tried to make computers with OS/2 preinstalled. [source]

Now, in terms of the computers Dell is selling, they're quite good. I have a full review of my experiences with the Dell 1420n Ubuntu model up on my blog. Summary: Everything works, except for suspend, which kinda-sorta-maybe works. Linux isn't quite ready for the end-user desktop yet; their are still some rough edges, such as needing to edit text files to enable WPA.

The 1420 is a little bulkier than my older Thinkpad 600-series (the late 90s version of their T series), but this is compensated for by being (pretty much) fully Linux supported.

I wonder what they're saying in Redmond about this

[qweqwe321]

...probably something along the lines of "I'm going to KILL f***ing Dell!"

Re:Dell ad dream

[Anonymous Coward]

Aaawww your link is broken. All I got is 'This page isn't redirecting correctly' and goatse.jpg on the address bar.

Mandriva

[SniperClops]

I hope Mandriva gets a deal, they make the best distro IMHO. Everything just works on the desktop.

Re:Mandriva

[lakeland]

Is that a troll? Would help if you back up the assertion with something (more than IMHO). Personally I don't care who gets the deal as long as it results in roughly standard-compliant comptuers - e.g. we see more of Dell pushing ATI for decent drivers. More support for decent BIOSs, better ACPI.. there are heaps of areas where a large commodity player could help simply by offering more sales.

Oh, and to copy your trollish stance, I hope Ubuntu gets the deal :-P

Re:Mandriva

[sykopomp]

Both posters above me are obviously trolls. There is no redeeming quality about either of the distros they support. I know this because I use Fedora. Now THAT is a real distro. You copycat wannabees can go crawl back in your little hermit holes and listen to your MP3s. I'm gonna go be smart AND popular.

Re:Mandriva

[arivanov]

1.They already had one with HP. They could not break into business accounts and it was limited to congigs that were of no interest to the average business. It was also not available in the most rabidly Microsoftic countries like the UK (yep, do we like it or not, but in UK Bill rules the market, if he did not Antonio Bliar would not have tried to start his election campaigns in MSFT building in Reading for the last two elections). I had a number of shouting matches with HP resellers on the subject only to surrender and buy with Winhoze preinstalled and load Debian on it. In addition to that various business discounts usually brought the MSFT preloaded price under the level the price of the systems sold with Mandrake. So it did not make financial sense either.

2. apt-get install light. Debian derived distros have a clear and definitive "unfair" advantage over any RPM based one due to the packaging format being simply better. Ubuntu has got a head start here and Mandrake can do very little about it.

3. Resistance is futile. You shall be packaged. Size of the package base and level of quality assurance. Ubuntu has been able to build on the enormous base of packaged software in Debian and extends it even further. No other linux distro gets anywhere close. Compared to that the RedHat package base is laughable and Mandrake does not get close enough on quality assurance.

Re:Mandriva

[nnm.one]

RedHat is a more conservative distro where they really test each package so that it doesn't compromise the stability of the system. Now Fedora on the other hand, it has 7500+ packages, I wouldn't call that pathetic since it does include most of everything that one needs and is always bleeding-edge, compared to Ubuntu (even though Ubuntu has almost tree times more packages =/).


Go Fedora! =)

Re:Mandriva

[deftcoder]

Debian offers 3 versions: a stable release (currently 'Etch'), a testing release (currently 'Lenny'), and an extremely bleeding edge release (which is always called 'Sid')

Ubuntu is basically Debian Sid, but rebranded with Ubuntu artwork. Essentially, you're running Debian Sid if you use Ubuntu. (Interesting fact: Shuttleworth used to be a Debian developer/maintainer)

Personally, I use the stable version of Debian on servers and other places where security/stability is paramount. But I use the testing version on desktops, where sacrificing very, VERY good security/stability for more up to date programs is more acceptable for me. I really dislike running the unstable release, as it's usually just that.

Re:Mandriva

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu has been able to build on the enormous base of packaged software in Debian and extends it even further

Are you sure you mean "further" ? Debian etch has 17739 binary packages, Ubuntu gutsy (which I think is newer than etch) only 5358. This is because they simply don't have the resources to provide proper QA on such a huge codebase.

Instead, if you need extra programs you need to complement your system with so-called "universe", which majorly consists of Debian packages that are periodicaly synced and often not even maintained (i.e. people just sync the code without even checking it works, and yes, I've seen actual examples of this happening).

Re:Mandriva

[DragonWriter]

Isn't Mandriva the default distro for the Asus EEE series?

IMO

[thatskinnyguy]

"...or will Ubuntu claim the desktop market working with other PC manufacturers?"

I hope not. Ubuntu may be good for some, but I found it to be relatively useless once I got past the eye candy.

Re:IMO

[fractoid]

What did you want to use it for? It's done everything I've asked of it (internet browsing, playing media, WoW via Wine, editing documents). What further use do you want it to be? (honest, curious question)

Re:IMO

[Gabrill]

I just gave up on Ubunto because I couldn't get Gyach to install via ANY package manager, and the manual install required libraries that weren't on the installable list. I just wanted yahoo voice chat. Call me stupid.

Re:IMO

[Dragonslicer]

Vista may be good for some, but I found it to be relatively useless once I got past the eye candy. Fixed that for ya

Re:IMO

[thatskinnyguy]

The package installation process was one thing that made me go to another distro (Fedora Core 7). I think my hardware set may have been too new for Ubuntu. Who knows? Maybe I'll give it a go if there is a new version released.

BTW, I wasn't trolling. I was stating an opinion that is valid.

Re:IMO

[BlueParrot]

You do know you can use aptitude on it ? Ubuntu uses .deb so if you dislike the default GUI you have quite a few alernative package managers at your disposal. I guess if you prefer rpm it is a different matter, but that is an rpm vs deb issue more than it is an issue with Ubuntu, and I think it is safe to say that that which is better of the two is at the very least debateable.

Re:IMO

[thatskinnyguy]

I like graphical installs (YaST, Yum). They are less "make work" for me. I just couldn't get Ubuntu's version of that to work. Like I said before, it may have been a hardware issue. I don't know.

preconfigure

[man_ls]

If Dell produced a Linux Ubuntu PC configured to run with multiple monitors from the get-go, I'd buy it just to save myself the trouble.

I'm so fed up of messing up xorg.conf and having to reconfigure it every time I reboot just to get video...

Re:preconfigure

[harris s newman]

Wha? 1) Why do you have to reboot? Ever? 2) Why do you need to change xorg.conf after the first time? Ever? 3) Are you running the live copy of ubuntu?

Re:preconfigure

[sykopomp]

I feel ya, I hate xorg.conf as well. I've installed a bunch of different distros on my computers. Not once in my time with GNU/Linux have I ever had the privilege of getting Xorg to run off any automated xorg.conf script. Not even in Ubuntu. I have crummy luck :(

Re:preconfigure

[man_ls]

I don't want to derail this into a "Let's Troubleshoot" discussion (although if you're willing to help...my e-mail is there and I'd love you forever)

1) I reboot after changing what driver I'm using for my cards. They're both ATI cards (X800 PCIe and a like 9250 PCI)....I have 2 of them driving 3 monitors. I've been switching between fglrx (sp) and ati for the driver. I guess I could just restart the X server, but, eh. My way is rebooting.

2) I keep changing it because I have yet to get it right such that multiple monitors has ever worked. And I keep changing it wrong, so I have to sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg because X won't start when I reboot due to configuration being wrong.

3) I'm running the latest stable Ubuntu from their web site, 7.04 for i386

I haven't wiped the partition yet, but man is it frustrating.

Re:preconfigure

[corvair2k1]

In case you haven't noticed, rebooting has to happen fairly often for updates with most linux distributions recently. Probably about once every three times I get updates for Ubuntu or Fedora, I have to do a reboot.

Re:preconfigure

[man_ls]

To be fair, Ubuntu is the first Linux distribution I've ever used that was able to both automatically find drivers for my wired Ethernet adapter and my Audigy sound card, and play music and use the Internet, without lots of fuss.

I used to be a technology professional but got out of the field (now I'll be going for a Ph.D. in a social science) and my knowledge has since dwindled.

Re:preconfigure

[QuantumG]

A reboot is required only when you do a distro upgrade. Like, every 6 months. If you're rebooting any more than that then you've got something seriously wrong with your machine.

Re:preconfigure

[TheModelEskimo]

Last I checked, this stuff (dual head autoconf) will be taken care of within the next two Ubuntu releases as updated X.org technologies are put to work. Hand-editing xorg.conf will be a thing of the past, across the board (I mean, regardless of dual-head or not). Anyway, your problem is why I went with a larger monitor rather than the dual setup.

Re:preconfigure

[bmo]

"A reboot is required only when you do a distro upgrade."

No, a reboot is required much more often than a distro upgrade. An example of this would be a kernel security upgrade.

--
BMO

Re:preconfigure

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Ubuntu has kernel updates that require system restarts, and it SAYS it requires a system restart when you switch to proprietary video drivers through the restricted drivers manager. Really it only needs an xorg restart in that case.

Re:preconfigure

[nnm.one]

You ONLY need to reboot when you upgrade your kernel (if you think that it is necessary since it mostly comes with just new drivers and such) AND when you upgrade your distribution (since it also upgrades the kernel).

Re:preconfigure

[JayAEU]

In case you haven't noticed, rebooting has to happen fairly often for updates with most linux distributions recently. Probably about once every three times I get updates for Ubuntu or Fedora, I have to do a reboot.

In that case you must be updating some unstable kernel all the time, since that's the only practical reason for doing a reboot, even on Ubuntu or Fedora.

Re:preconfigure

[miro f]

I have always used nvidia cards.

Since nvidia's 9xxx series of drivers, the graphical configuration utility allows you to hotplug monitors and set up dual head without touching xorg or even restarting the X server.

it's a bit disappointing that the feature isn't there for users of other cards, but it appears X is going through some big changes and hopefully soon enough it will hit the 21st century...

Re:preconfigure

[Lost Engineer]

Derailed. Getting multiple monitors to work with ATI cards/drivers is a pain. Use the ATI drivers. Make sure you're using MergedFB. The Xinerama stuff has never worked satisfactorily for me.

Out of the box == out of the question, but you might prefer restarting your X server while you're messing around with this stuff, as opposed to rebooting. I work from a separate virtual console usually. Ctrl+Alt+Backspace, then startx usually does the trick.

Re:preconfigure

[J.Y.Kelly]

Probably about once every three times I get updates for Ubuntu or Fedora, I have to do a reboot.

I suppose that depends on how often you're getting your updates, but here:

$ wc -l /var/log/yum.log
140 /var/log/yum.log

$ grep kernel.i686 /var/log/yum.log | wc -l
1

So since Fedora 7 came out I've had 140 updates, of which precisely 1 has been a kernel update (which is the only one which would require a reboot). Maybe if you're tracking rawhide they'd be more frequent, but normally they're pretty rare.

Re:preconfigure

[VagaStorm]

I don't think 9250 is supported by the official ati drivers anymore :( (The ati vista drivers neither support 9250 I belive)

Re:preconfigure

[CastrTroy]

2) I keep changing it because I have yet to get it right such that multiple monitors has ever worked. And I keep changing it wrong, so I have to sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg because X won't start when I reboot due to configuration being wrong.

Simple solution:

1. cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.bak
2. vi xorg.conf
3. make changes in xorg.conf
4. x crashes
5. cp xorg.conf.bak xorg.conf

Re:preconfigure

[MMC Monster]

The bar is always rising. First it was "If Linux would install on my system painlessly...", then it was "If Linux could play popular media types, such as flash and mp3s...", then it was "If Linux could be sold by a national chain that could be trusted...", now it's "If Linux could work with multiple-monitors without configuration..."

Linux has won. Easy multiple-monitor support is probably going to land in the next version of Ubuntu. Regardless, people will find something else to complain about.

Re:preconfigure

[cortana]

Or (effectively) when you upgrade a library package that all your programs are linked against.

Re:preconfigure

[tuffy]

Or, if you don't want to use the graphical utility, the process is:

1. Add "TwinView" option to "Device" section in xorg.conf
2. Restart X server
3. There is no step 3

The nvidia driver makes the whole process trivial, really.

Re:preconfigure

[Yfrwlf]

Right, since currently there is no method for updating certain parts of a kernel without restarting it. You don't have to reboot and use the new kernel, though. Perhaps someone should try to think up a system to "hot swap" updates into a kernel? Wouldn't it be cool if you could freeze things that are using a certain part that needs an upgrade, swap out that part, then resume normal functionality? Perhaps if everything was modular enough (used standard points of interface) it would be possible? Did I ever think it possible that I would be having this kind of open discussion about an operating system kernel back when I used Windows?

Oh the answer to that last question was "no", btw.

Re:preconfigure

[Spudds]

Regardless, people will find something else to complain about. Good. That is how linux progresses.

"Why doesn't it do that?"
"Fixed."
"I wish it would do that!"
"Done."
"This is a real pain to do!"
"Fixed."

Etc.

Re:preconfigure

[apoc.famine]

Perhaps the most important thing inherent in your list of "addressed complaints" is the fact that so many complaints...have been addressed. Yes, it's taken quite some time, but the things which were most pressing have been slowly taken care of. And by and large, there haven't been any major regressions.

I came into the linux game later than a lot of the posters here. Between 2000 and 2004 I installed some flavor of linux/bsd about every six months. And two weeks later, almost without fail, I'd switch back to Win2k, because I got frustrated trying to get something to work, I was missing some major driver, etc. But then five months later I'd get so pissed off at the idiocy of Windows that I'd try another flavor.

Over that time, linux got better and better. More and more desktop hardware was supported, package managers got better, desktops became more functional, and everything ran and looked better and better. Linux became easier and easier to install. Multi-media became more and more well supported.

I can't say the same for windows. XP was not a significant upgrade from Win2k. I've told my friends and family that I will be unable to help them with Vista. Why? Because it's a nightmare. And because I haven't had to deal with the idiocy of windows for the last 3 years. And because it doesn't seem to be a significant upgrade. In fact, it might even be a step backwards in some regards.

I just installed Kubuntu for my mom. At her request. Because she said to me, "I'm trying to help your grandmother with her new Dell running Vista, and it's so stupid. I hate it. I don't know why it has to be so difficult. I want what you have." I do not know where the Microsoft train is going, so I'm choosing to ride the linux train, which has been going forward for the last 6 years or so. And I'm starting to get friends and family to come with me.

Re:preconfigure

[Hatta]

Unless you don't want to use twinview. Having 2 monitors is nice, but they MUST have separate virtual desktops. I can't stand it when I change desktops on one monitor only to have the mplayer, zsnes, irssi terminal, etc, on the other disappear. So far the only way I've found to avoid this is to disable twinview, xinerama, and any other fancy crap and just set each display up as a separate display in xorg.conf. I can't drag apps from one display to the other, but that's a small price to pay for sane virtual desktops.

If anyone knows a better way, please let me know.

Re:preconfigure

[tuffy]

If you don't want your apps disappearing from the other screen when switching virtual desktops, why not make them sticky with your window manager? I would expect that'd be less of a headache than classic-style X11 multihead.

Re:preconfigure

[Red Alastor]

A reboot also required when you apt-get a new language but you don't do that regularly.

Re:preconfigure

[rleibman]

Ctrl+Alt+Backspace, then startx usually does the trick.

Or better yet, instead of startx (in ubuntu):
/etc/init.d/gdm restart (or kdm if you're using kubuntu)

Re:preconfigure

[Hatta]

Because then they show up on all virtual desktops. I want to be able to change desktops on each monitor independently. Also, I don't know how to make full screen apps sticky. And I have to take the time to think to make an app sticky. On top of all that I lose the ability to use the -display :0.1 flag to choose displays.

The twinview behavior is pretty ridiculous. Suppose on monitor A I have 2 virtual desktops, one with firefox open, one with some PDFs. On monitor B I have 2 desktops, one with vim for writing and another with irssi. I want to be able to switch between firefox and the PDFs without losing my vim window. I also want to be able to switch to irssi without losing my place in firefox. Is that so much to ask?

Re:preconfigure

[cbhacking]

While I haven't ever tried to actually do this, Suse's SaX2 (automatic X configuring program) allows setting up dual-head mode quite painlessly, in theory. Of course, I say this while running the proprietary nVidia driver, so i don't know if it will do so for ATi. However, it supports both cloned desktops and xinerama, and appears configurable in just a few very simple, clear steps.

In fact, of all the configuration tools that come with Suse, sax2 must be one of the most wonderful - I've almost forgotten where the xorg.conf file is. I don't know if it's portable to other distros, but the source should be available - all of Suse's configuration tools were open-sourced when they were bought by Novell, IIRC.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Centos on former Ubuntu Dell

[digitalhermit]

I'm writing this on one of the original Dell Ubuntu laptops. A few days after receiving it, I wiped Ubuntu and put on Centos5 mainly to keep the same software that I use on my servers and other workstations. There was a small glitch in getting the wireless to work, but so far it's been perfect. The laptop hibernates properly, browses wirelessly and wired, and works properly. The annoying stuff that took some configuration were the media keys, MP3 and WMA video playback, and an issue with the sound kicking off and requiring a driver reload via KDE. This wasn't too tough for me to figure out, but I have some experience with Linux. I wouldn't recommend it for the Linux newbie, but heck, that's why it ships with Ubuntu.

I'm not a big fan of Dell home systems (their business machines are much better built), but having a major vendor support Linux is a good thing regardless. By them supporting Linux fixes can get pushed to other systems. The glitches in the Intel 3945 wireless card will be worked out. Maybe the Broadcoms start working without ndiswrapper. Heck, ATI might come around and make a proper video driver set.

I chose to buy this laptop precisely because the hardware is Linux compatible (well, except for the closed Nvidia drivers which are not too bad). If more people did this it gives an incentive for hardware manufacturers to release code and drivers for Linux. That helps everyone.

Re:Centos on former Ubuntu Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably don't care about this, but what about the modem? My understanding is that Dell was providing some version of the Conexant driver as a download, but I'm sure it was in Ubuntu's .deb format or something. I wonder if this driver is the full-speed version that Conexant usually charges for, and I wonder if you could get it going on CentOS or Fedora if you wanted to.

Are they buying it?

[Anonymous Coward]

The media release says "on track to meet projections". That's business code for selling, but not selling well.

Re:Are they buying it?

[LingNoi]

Actually Anonymous Coward if my sales were "on track to meet projections" I would call that a win. Disagree if you want but people are buying them like the parent said.

Re:Linux Becomming A Commercial Product - Thank Go

[nnm.one]

Woah, you troll about each and every newsstory. Get a life maybe?

Thanks for the post!

[lakeland]

I was very interested in how well supported the hardware is or whether dell uses binary blobs. Here we are slowly shifting away from windows to ubuntu on the desktop and we already use Fedora on servers - all on dell hardware - so it will be very helpful if it is well supported hardware.

Broadcom drivers

[matts-reign]

As of linux 2.6.17, there is support for broadcom wifi via reverse engineered drivers. I really don't know what quantity of cards it supports, but it works on mine. That is definately "starting to work without ndiswrapper" at least.

What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that sucks?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using Linux for years. And I love the command line interface - on the server. And even then, having an intuitive GUI on the server is helpful for normal day-to-day tasks and troubleshooting.

I even love having the CLI on the desktop. In fact, I make my Windows XP operate as much like the Linux CLI as I can. Use the Run command, and drop shortcuts in your path. Install GNU's UnxUtils in your path, and you've got the entire Unix commands at your CMD fingertips. Very powerful stuff.

In college, I used Linux on a Dell Inspiron 3500 laptop. 300 Mhz, 64 MB RAM. I loaded Red Hat 6, then switched to Mandrake on it. It was running the current version of KDE. And for the most part, it worked.

It was rough around the edges, but the graphical system usually always sorta worked. If XWindows crashed, then I would just CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE it to reset X. Execute startx from the command line and I'm back up and running again - no need to reboot the operating system. So the base OS was stable. I loved that.

The alternative was to use Windows 98. Which ran good as a fresh-off-the-CD installation, but once you started loading 3rd party software, it immediately took a nosedive.

This was around 1999 to 2000.

Flash forward seven years, to 2007, and we've got Ubuntu with the Gnome desktop GUI. And it looks pretty and all, but beauty is only skin deep. Literally. Once you have to start using the GUI and navigating around it, you just want to pull your hairs out.

I just installed Ubuntu on my 4 year old computer, an old AMD Athlon XP 2200 with 1 GB of RAM. And boy is the desktop GUI slow! My Windows XP ran super smooth all these years on that computer. No complaints on its responsiveness.

What I loved most about Ubuntu, was the ease of installing new software. Fire up Synaptics Package Manager, search for your software, select install, click OK, walk away, and it's done! Wow! Now that is something to brag about! I didn't even have to worry about scanning the file for a virus, or even think of where to install it.

Search for Azureus, click install. It searches for dependencies. Java is required. Select Java for installation too. Click OK. 10 minutes later. Done!

Search for DVD decoders, click install. Done! I even found out how to rip my DVD's to XviD using MEncoder the next day. And I never even knew how to rip a DVD previously before. That was easy!

But man, the desktop GUI still sucks.

So now I'm at a crossroads. I need to buy a new computer. And I hate Windows! But I love the Windows GUI. It's clean, simple, and it works. Period. Microsoft did a really good job with the desktop GUI. But, I'm sick and tired of all its insecurities. All of the stupid worms and viruses that I constantly need to worry about, and the pop-ups or pop-unders that hoses Internet Explorer as well as the security of your system. (Don't worry, I use FireFox.) I don't even let anyone use my work's notebook computer, because I'm fearful that they'll browse the internet and accidentally click on a pop-up, and get spyware installed on my business computer. So hands off - only I can use this computer.

And don't even get me started about user restrictions - because in Windows, you need to run as an Administrator to avoid having to deal with all the crap that wouldn't work if you ran as a less privileged user. Ever tried running as a regular user and wanting to change your screen's resolution? Good Luck! Or if you want, you can spend a few hours and try to figure out how Windows Group Policies work, and install a policy for yourself.

What I want is an out of the box, secure OS to use. I can be a regular user, and if I need access to critical system files, I can enter a root password to get there. Linux/Unix is great for this.

So what are my other options?

Apple's famed OSX. And I've been seriously looking at it now. The GUI works like butter. Everything seems to just flow like water with it.

Dell got a big discount on Ubuntu

[Alain Williams]

I have it on good authority that Michael took Mark out to dinner and negotiated a huge 80% discount on the list price of Ubuntu. This was on the basis of the discount that Bill gave him when he took him out to dinner.

Now: 80% discount on $0 is ....

Linux preinstalled is "no OS" or "Pirate Windows"?

[Alkonaut]

What I'd like to know is how many of the boxes sold with preinstalled linux, actually get used as linux boxes.

How many use it just to dodge the license cost, and just install their pirated windows copy? Any guesses? Is linux becoming the "no OS" choice available at other whitebox builders?

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[Lennie]

If you think you even need to click on a popup to get infected, your misinformed.

Just visiting any page can get you infected with IE (depending on the security updates you have and the way they are trying to exploit them, ofcourse). The majority doesn't need any interaction with the user.

BTW Apple has been changing parts and pieces of the gui every release and I think it's lost it's consistency. Also Mac OS X is an upgrade treadmill as well. With Apple you'll have to buy a new version every 1 or 2 releases. If you don't you can't run the newer versions of the software that come out. They used to come out every 6 months or so, but now they are at 1 ones a year. With the other OS's you don't need to pay for updates/upgrades (think service packs ?) that often. But then again an official full version of Windows is more expensive.

That's just my opinion ofcourse, I do hope you like KUbuntu. :-)

KDE

[12357bd]

Maybe I am wrong, but for a maximal sales impact, Ubuntu should use KDE UI by default.

Re:KDE

[Sique]

That's what kubuntu (Ubuntu with KDE as default desktop) is for.

Re:KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

I do agree, but I think GNOME was a better fit for what they wanted for Ubuntu. That is, Ubuntu wanted to make things simple and easy for the user, part of that is not overloading the user with choice, and this fits with the goals for GNOME, so it is less work customising and maintaining GNOME for Ubuntu than it would be for KDE.

Ahh there it is...!

[DerCed]

Finally 2007 will be the year of Linux on the desktop!

But it is a major event

[dna_(c)(tm)(r)]

When five or six major OEMs start to offer a linux distro

The main issue is that it is now possible to buy a preinstalled desktop/laptop. Which effectively lowers the treshold considerably for entry by less tech savy customers.

A second, very important point is that the perception changes: Linux on the desktop, and Ubuntu in particular, are now enterprise ready because one of the big names offers them. And with optional support.

Re:But it is a major event

[rjshields]

I was thinking the same thing.

After years of "Linux ready for the desktop" stories on slashdot, does this mean it finally is ready?

Re:But it is a major event

[Dan Ost]

It's been ready for a while.
Now it's actually positioned to move on to the lay person's desktop.

In the UK

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know when (if ever) Dell will start offering linux PCs in the UK?
All my attempts to find anything on the UK site have redirected me to the USA site.
Is it possible to order from the USA site? Any other UKers got any information?

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[Anonymous Coward]

With Apple you'll have to buy a new version every 1 or 2 releases. If you don't you can't run the newer versions of the software that come out. They used to come out every 6 months or so, but now they are at 1 ones a year.

Panther (10.3) - released October 2003
Tiger (10.4) - April 2005
Leopard (10.5) - October 2007 (probably)

More like every 18 months..

Linspire.

[oliverthered]

The best distro I've found so far is Linspire, you know the one that actually comes with licenses for dvds and mp3s

Ubuntu - ready for desktop?!?

[hemanman]

Tried to install Ubuntu 7.04 last night on my new low end desktop machine, but alas I can't install it because it boots in 800x600 and the install dialog can't be moved or scrolled, so I can't use the buttons.

Ok, np, I thought, I can just force it to load the Nvidia driver, that shouldn't be a problem, find the dialog with other drivers and click enable, it then says it needs to restart in order to load the driver. Fine with me, it restarts and looks exactly the same as before!!

Ok, I've worked with X before, so if I just make it enable the driver, and then press CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE for X to reload there might be a chance it would load the Nvidia driver, and correct, it does!! So far so good, but where is my mousepointer? The mouse works, but there is no pointer, and it's pretty damn hard to press a button when you have to guess where the pointer is pointed!

Finally, I gave up, and installed it with FreeBSD 6.2, at least they don't pretend it is supposed to be easy to install and configure a system.

How on earth is normal people supposed to be able to reinstall their system?

I hope DeLL provides restore CD's with their system's...

-H

Re:Ubuntu - ready for desktop?!?

[Anzhr]

"Tried to install Ubuntu 7.04 last night on my new low end desktop machine, but alas I can't install it because it boots in 800x600 and the install dialog can't be moved or scrolled, so I can't use the buttons." Just press ALT, grab the window in the middle, and push it up to get to the buttons.

Re:Ubuntu - ready for desktop?!?

[hemanman]

That actually works, quite bulky, but it somewhat works. Then another problem hits the fan. When trying to make a partition on the disk, it says "Can't have the end before the start" and the disk is totally blank, not a single partition on it, tried everything.

A quick google shows that this is some kind of issue with 250GB drives, wtf? Ready for desktop, I think not.

Oh, and FreeBSD 6.2 dosen't work either, some bright person decided to update everything in ports to Xorg 7.2, but the newest Nvidia driver for FreeBSD dosen't work with FreeBSD's version of 7.2 and GeForce 6150 LE dosen't work with the native nv driver.

Solaris 10 dosen't show a mousepointer, so thats also out of the question... I'm running out of alternatives, I'll bet Windows works like a charm on this machine, though. Sad but true :(

Re:Ubuntu - ready for desktop?!?

[SpiritGod21]

Dell's shipping their laptops with Linux compatible hardware. Chances are your "new low end desktop machine" doesn't fit that bill.

Generally, nVidia works well with Linux and Ubuntu in particular. What chipset do you have?

Also, yeah, they're probably shipping it with one of the free Ubuntu CDs that Canonical hands out by the truckload. Pretty sure Dell's just doing a fairly basic install of Ubuntu.

Re:Ubuntu - ready for desktop?!?

[Rycross]

I had the exact same problem that the above poster had with Ubuntu. The problem was that I had a micro-ATX motherboard (with an AMD socket 939 processor) with a nVidia integrated video card. Either the 6100 or 6150 (can't remember off the top of my head). I was able to install the nVidia drivers and complete the install, but upon reboot, it "lost" the drivers that I had installed, but still marked them as installed. I had to swap back to the nv drivers, and reinstall the nVidia ones, then mess around with the x config file.

Sorry if its not accurate, this is off the top of my head.

As far as the installation screens go, you can fudge through it by tabbing through the buttons and guessing whether you're on "Next" or back, until you get to the screen where you select your country. Doesn't work on that one. They really need to fix that UI to make it scalable (or at least usable on screens as low as 640x480).

Oh I also have always had problems with my cursor being invisible on default configurations. Its done this on three different distros, and I always have to muck about to turn off hardware acceleration for the cursor.

Re:Ubuntu - ready for desktop?!?

[Rycross]

Sheesh, I wish I had known that before. Would have saved me a ton of trouble. (I had the same problem as the grandparent) :(

They still need to fix the UI though. I shouldn't have to know non-intuitive details of the UI to install the OS.

A common API is the key

[OzTech]

It isn't about the cost, it's about the software or in particular the desktop software and how easy it is to install and get running, although perhaps of more importance is the availability and range of software (ne: programs) available, and how reliable they are.

As soon as Unix/Linux people realise this and look beyond their own nose (ne: favourite flavour of GNU/Linux), they will realise that the API is the real jewel. The reason that Microsoft beat IBM at its own game with the OS2/Windows war was because it won the API war. They convinced, or scammed (depending upon your point of view) programmers to write to the Win31 API and OS/2 was killed. Providing development tools such as Visual Basic and Access which removed the whole API schema just made their task a whole lot easier.

Forget the fancy esoteric languages and "scripted" (ne: interpreted) tools, because they are not what is needed to wrestle the end user away from Windows. What is required is a common platform (display, communications, and file API's to name just a few). Sure, let the system level person choose between a Gnome or KDE desktop. Let them run either RedHat, Suse, or Ubuntu (insert flavour of the week) but provide a common interface to of them all via a simple and straight-forward API. Then provide the killer application development tools like Visual Basic and/or Access which will let newbie programmers write their killer app with no knowledge of computers or programming and then GNU/Linux may just stand a chance.

Re:A common API is the key

[BooRolla]

I am the programmer who says "(ne: )"

Re:A common API is the key

[RAMMS EIN]

``it's about the software or in particular the desktop software and how easy it is to install and get running, although perhaps of more importance is the availability and range of software (ne: programs) available, and how reliable they are.''

Yes. Also, availability and reliability of software is indeed more important than how easy it is to get things installed and running. After all, you do the latter infrequently, and someone can do it for you (as is the case when it comes pre-installed).

``As soon as Unix/Linux people realise this and look beyond their own nose (ne: favourite flavour of GNU/Linux), they will realise that the API is the real jewel.''

Yes. A well-known API is what lets software be developed. A stable API both becomes well-known, and allows age-old software to still compile and run.

``Providing development tools such as Visual Basic and Access which removed the whole API schema just made their task a whole lot easier.''

I've heard several people say that they or their company developed in VB because any idiot could get up and running with it. So this is indeed a great advantage as far as making software available for your platform is concerned.

``Forget the fancy esoteric languages and "scripted" (ne: interpreted) tools, because they are not what is needed to wrestle the end user away from Windows.''

I don't agree with you here. The multitude of experimental and sometimes superior programs (some of them programming languages) is something that *nix has to a greater extent than Windows. This is a strength. A number of great inventions and technologies have come out of the *nix world because of them.

``What is required is a common platform (display, communications, and file API's to name just a few).''

The funny thing is that *nix has had these to a far greater extent than the competition. The system calls at the core of *nix are still like they were in Unix version 2 in 1972. Early X programs from the 1980s can still interact with modern X servers. POSIX, a set of standard APIs implemented (to various degrees) by various operating systems (including mainframe, workstation, and embedded systems), is based on the Unix APIs.

By comparison, from Micrososoft, we now have .NET. Before that, there were MFC and Win32. That gets us back to 1995 or thereabouts. Before that, there was the 16-bit Windows API, OS/2, and DOS. DOS gets us back to the early 1980s and is still supported to some extent today. However, where the Unix APIs are still in active use, hardly anyone develops for DOS anymore. The same goes for 16-bit Windows and OS/2. So, realistically, win32 is Microsoft's oldest API that is still alive, and it's a heck of a lot younger than Unix. Incidentally, a long time ago, Microsoft developed their own Unix (called XENIX). You can program for Windows using the Unix API with something like Cygwin or Services for Unix installed. You can use the win32 API on *nix platforms with X11 and WINE. You can use the .NET APIs on non-Windows platforms with something like Mono or Portable.NET.

As for Apple, their claim to fame is the (old) Mac OS. The APIs from this OS are not actually supported anymore, although, last time I checked, you could run Mac OS 9 inside Mac OS X. Then there is Carbon (released, I think, around 2000), which (if I have it right) targets both Mac OS classic and Mac OS X, and Cocoa, which is basically OpenStep, which is a continuation of NEXTSTEP (with some capitalization). NEXTSTEP is from 1989. However, Apple only started using that API with the release of Mac OS X server in 2000 or thereabouts. In addition to Cocoa, you can also program for OS X using the Unix API. You can use the OpenStep API on other *nix systems using GNUStep. Apple also used to make a Unix called A/UX.

All in all, APIs are a tangled mess, but the Unix API is the oldest one still alive, is available almost everywhere, and the leading competiting APIs have been implemented (to a degree) on top of it.

Re:A common API is the key

[mikee805]

Then provide the killer application development tools like Visual Basic and/or Access which will let newbie programmers write their killer app with no knowledge of computers or programming and then GNU/Linux may just stand a chance. I have been wondering about that myself. I havent looked (because I dont have a need), but is there an open source equivalent of Access? Something that lets you create simple database backed programs and forms?

Re:A common API is the key

[Anonymous Coward]

I havent looked (because I dont have a need), but is there an open source equivalent of Access? Something that lets you create simple database backed programs and forms?

OpenOffice2 Base

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[Ogi_UnixNut]

Funny that. The windows GUI was one of the things I hated the most about windows, I found it inflexible, illogical and such a pain to get anything simpler then the usual done that I used to rip my hair out.

But hey, different people have different things they look for in a GUI, that is why I like choice. You might want to look at XPDE (XP Desktop Environment). A work in progress to give an XP-like desktop to Linux machines. So far it has been very good for long-time XP users to switch to linux (I have switched a lot of "normal" people to linux thanks to this DE), but I have no idea what it is like for power-users. You might want to give it a go before you put money down for a Mac

tl:dr

[Anonymous Coward]

Please consider breaking your posts up with some html tagging, as this is really hard to read.

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[Dragonslicer]

If you don't like the look and feel of Gnome, try KDE. You can either install Kubuntu (which is different from Ubuntu only in that the default desktop is KDE instead of Gnome), or if you already have Ubuntu running, install kubuntu-desktop through apt. I prefer KDE, though I admit that I haven't used Gnome in several years. Lots of people will argue that KDE is better than Gnome or that Gnome is better than KDE (or that Xfce is better than anything), but it really just comes down to personal preference. They're all still Linux and they can run the same programs, so just pick the one that you like.

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[Weedlekin]

"With Apple you'll have to buy a new version every 1 or 2 releases. If you don't you can't run the newer versions of the software that come out. They used to come out every 6 months or so, but now they are at 1 ones a year."

The only Apple major upgrade that came out six months after another release was 10.0 to 10.1, which was free for people who already had 10.0. The others were released at increasing intervals:

10.2 came out in August 2002, 11 months after 10.1.
10.3 went to retail October 2003, 14 months after 10.2.
10.4 was launched in April 2005, 18 months after 10.3.
10.5 is expected to appear in October 2007, 30 months after 10.4.

This averages out at one release per 12.25 months if we don't include 10.5, which hasn't been released yet. Let's compare this with Microsoft's consumer OS offerings between 1998 and 2001, when XP came out (i.e. before Vista missed its announced release dates by five years):

Windows 98: June 1998.
Windows 98 SE: May 5 1999. Paid upgrade to 98, 11 months after 98.
Windows ME: June 2000, paid upgrade, 13 months after 98 SE.
Windows XP: October 2001, paid upgrade 16 months after ME.

This averages out at once per 13.3 month, i.e. only one month more than OS X. Note also that MS originally planned to release what's now Vista in late 2002 / early 2003, which would have been in line with their policy of 1 major (i.e. charged for) consumer release per year.

"With the other OS's you don't need to pay for updates/upgrades (think service packs ?) that often."

You don't pay for service packs with Apple either. OS X 10.4 is now in version 10.4.10, which is not the same as the 10.4.0 that I installed in July 2005. Note also that _any_ major (paid) versions of OS X adds significantly more to the previous version than Windows 98 SE did to Windows 98, os ME did to 98 SE, both of which MS had no problems with charging people for. It could also be argued that they've added at least as much as Vista does to XP.

"But then again an official full version of Windows is more expensive."

All Apple's major OS releases are however sold as upgrades, and upgrades to a Microsoft OS are a lot cheaper than full versions, although the non-crippled ones still cost rather more than Apple charge. Vista Ultimate upgrade for example costs as much as I will finally spend on upgrading my rev. 1 PPC iMac G5 from 10.3 (which came with it) to 10.4, and then 10.4 to 10.5 when that ships. I'll have got more added functionality (and indeed enhanced performance) from the two upgrades to OS X than would be the case if I upgraded my XP Pro laptop (which is of a similar age to the Mac) to Vista for the same amount of money, especially given the fact that Vista with its eye candy turned on would require rather more power than that particular machine has available.

Re:Linux Becomming A Commercial Product - Thank Go

[Lissajous]

It's a shame that parent was modded Troll (I presume on account of the first inflammatory paragraph, coupled with posting AC), as the second paragraph actually has something to say. Hopefully Dell will be throwing resources at fixing up some of the shortcomings in the current playing field. To have an open source desktop and os with the polish of OS X will be undeniably bliss.

The way I see it the roadblocks to widespread adoption of a free open desktop are ease-of-purchase (not an oxymoron), ease-of-use, and availability of high quality applications on the platform.

Dell are making great strides here with the ease-of-purchase. No more struggling to get linux installed on your hardware (and before you flame about these being a thing of the past, installing Feisty Fawn for me failed on 3 out of 4 machines with system lock-ups at random points for no apparent reason). Systems that "just work" will be heavenly. Then couple this with added incentive for hardware manufacturers to take linux support seriously - if there's half a million Dells out there all with the same graphics chipset in them, then driver support is going to be that much better.

Ease of use. Again, things are becoming better and better here. Dependancy issues are practically a thing of the past. And if Dell are making a concerted effort in this direction, then having all the right repositories pre-configured at point of sale, rather than having to deal with these arcane strings will make it easier for Joe Noob to download and install the software they need to do what they want. The issue to deal with now is how to make sense of how all those godawful c0d3rhum0r punny names actually correspond to functionality so that people can find out exactly WTF the software is called that will do what they want.

High quality applications. This is where the commercial adoption on the desktop runs the risk of falling flat on it's face. We *need* something as seamless as MS Office and equivalent Exchange Server integration (shared calenders and so on). Until you work in an office environment with this, you have no idea how indispensable this is. And what people use at work, they (by and large) use at home. OOo is making great strides in a really useable productivity suite, but until the Outlook equivalent is *integrated* into the suite, I can't see it replacing Office in the workplace.

The other thing we need (and when I say need - I mean really really need) is the creative tools to be dragged into usability. GIMP sucks! Sorry, but it had to be said (again, and again). I know there are people that are going to say that they can do anything in GIMP that can be done in Photoshop, but I, and millions of creative professionals out there, *really* do not care! I also *do not care* that GIMP is free and I should be grateful for that. I've tried it, found it sucked, and returned to Photoshop. That, more than *anything* keeps me chained to a closed-source desktop. You want 20xx to be "the year of the linux desktop"? Fine - fix GIMP, or better yet, give us something designed from the ground up that works the way graphics artists work, rather than the way that coders do. Then give me Illustrator, and maybe Dreamweaver (for those that don't code their HTML/CSS by hand). Finally give me Flash.

If you don't want 20xx to be "the year of the linux desktop", then don't flame me for speaking to those who do.

So - "Linux becoming a commercial product - thank God"? I'll second that!

Probably way off-topic but here goes.

[Luke Dawson]

Ubuntu gets quite a bit of publicity these days. I was just thinking - if all the major vendors start offering only Ubuntu as an alternative to Windows, doesn't that kind of conflict with the whole "Linux being about freedom to choose" idea? I mean, if Ubuntu becomes the ubiquitous Linux distribution bundled with new PCs, then it would, in some sense, become a monopolistic Linux distro. Yes, you can simply replace it with your flavor of choice, but half the argument for getting vendors to ship Linux-based PCs in the first place was that the majority of users just stick with whatever came installed with their computer. So couldn't the same be said of their Linux distribution? I don't necessarily believe it myself, but possibly something at least worth considering a possibility?

Re:Probably way off-topic but here goes.

[Dan Ost]

I'm cool with that. Let Ubuntu take 90% of the linux desktop market.

My only concern is hardware support and since we all run the same kernel, I can buy a Ubuntu installed machine and put my preferred distro on it with no worries.

Re:Probably way off-topic but here goes.

[DragonWriter]

Ubuntu gets quite a bit of publicity these days. I was just thinking - if all the major vendors start offering only Ubuntu as an alternative to Windows, doesn't that kind of conflict with the whole "Linux being about freedom to choose" idea?

Not really. As long as it is Free software, and there are needs not met by the "popular" version, there will be alternatives out there to choose. It might reduce the number of "complete" major distros, and some might reconfigure as package collections designed to be layered on top of a standard Ubuntu install rather than installed from scratch, but as long as there is an interested community of users and developers, there will be alternatives with Linux. And anything a new distro could change could be changed through packages, so there is no loss of freedom to choose there, just a change in mechanisms.

Re:Probably way off-topic but here goes.

[maskedau]

each to their own, choice is good even for a desktop but also for application if a company like dell is 'selling linux' i think they need to cater for all the potential markets the diversity of open source allows. anyone can install ubuntu, but surely dell could afford to provide tailored solutions, or atleast the sales knowledge as to which distro is best for what.

Re:Probably way off-topic but here goes.

[quahaug]

Ubuntu is becoming the new Red Hat (Gnome included). With that said we have more choices now then when Red Hat first appeared.

Re:I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other sho

[ericrost]

Umm.. I'm confused, is the dell install of ubuntu non standard? Otherwise Network Manager has wpa-supplicant already installed on the backend and has wpa support out of the box (I'm writing this from my HP lappy with Feisty running on it. I've been running Feisty since the beta and did a clean install for fun when it launched. Network Manager is part of the base install.

Please elaborate.

Praise Ubuntu for doing such a good job

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems odd and early to be negative about this linux success. When you compare it to Microsoft you are taking away from the excitement that should be found in the growth of this alternative.

How about praising Ubuntu for doing such a good job?

thats all well and good...

[night_flyer]

but can you run Windows on them?

One teensy problem.

[Chas]

Due to their volume, big-name vendors like Dell, HP, and Lenovo can put together a hardware/software platform for significantly less than what the shopfront guys can.

The shopfront guys HAVE to move to Linux to become price competitive with a big-name Windows system.

Re:One teensy problem.

[clodney]

To be price competitive, yes. To be competitive, no.

In the Minneapolis area there are still a number of boutique system builders. Walk in, pick out a motherboard, case, processor, memory, etc., and either take it home or watch them build it for you.

This is good on several levels. First, these people actually know what they are doing, and are capable of doing diagnostics and repairs. Second, a system you get from them is not bogged down with craplets and shovelware. Third is the whole immediate gratification factor.

I can buy a brand new system cheaper from Dell than I can from these guys, but it won't have exactly the components I want, and if I am reusing some components of an existing system the local guys will come out ahead. They don't even charge me anything to integrate my existing components for reuse.

There is still a market for the personalized service you get. Price is not everything, or Linux would have won by now.

Re:One teensy problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

In the Minneapolis area there are still a number of boutique system builders. Walk in, pick out a motherboard, case, processor, memory, etc., and either take it home or watch them build it for you.

Got a few you'd like to recommend? There's pretty much nuthin here in Rochester.

Re:One teensy problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Due to their volume, big-name vendors like Dell, HP, and Lenovo can put together a hardware/software platform for significantly less than what the shopfront guys can.

This is only true for less expensive machines and laptops (of any price). For a higher-end machine for which Dell charges $3000 (gaming, etc.), the parts/software are about $2000 at retail. And, yes, these are high-quality parts that have equivalent or better specs and warranty.

You might be able to get the price down to $1700 or so in quantity 10, which lets the shopfront guy charge $500 less than Dell, offer the same warranty (1 year labor and the 2-3 years for parts that the manufacturer offers), and still clear $500 per machine with ease. At even 4 hours to build the box, that's pretty good profit.

Re:One teensy problem.

[clodney]

I've used Tran Micro on University Ave a few times, and have always been very satisfied.

I haven't tried them, but have heard similar good things about a General Nanosystems, just a block or two away.

Re:One teensy problem.

[Chas]

"Walk in, pick out a motherboard, case, processor, memory, etc., and either take it home or watch them build it for you."

Yeah, this is great for people who actually KNOW something about computers.

For the majority of people (you know, "Technology is SCARY"), who simply want something that turns on, runs-ish, etc? No.

That isn't competition. It is aiming at a niche market.

Why does MS get away with it, then?

[Anonymous Coward]

How many times have they changed their API's (and even given the WRONG API out) over the years? Each release and often (though not most of the time) with each service pack thereof.

API changes galore.

But you don't see that as a problem.

Why?

"Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

It's been 34 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment"

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[SpiritGod21]

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised by your experience with Ubuntu. I was really anti-Ubuntu when I tried Edgy Eft (I learned after the fact that everyone thought Edgy sucked, but it was my first experience with Ubuntu) and it dive-bombed on 3 separate computers on me. However, loving Ubuntu's philosophy, I gave it a try on my laptop a few months after Feisty Fawn came out. Super fast, everything worked (wireless required some tweaks, but some nice guy had written a script that required nothing more than running it and clicking a button!), and I had Linux on a laptop with no troubles. Decided to try it at home and my desktop is faster than ever. It boots significantly faster than XP did, it's (of course) more secure, though I already had my XP install pretty locked down, and it's got all the many benefits of Linux. The GUI's fast and intuitive, my fiance figured out on her own how to import photos from our digital camera (simply by plugging it in; it just worked!) and how to navigate to upload them to Facebook, and I play World of Warcraft, Oblivion, and EVE-Online on it without a problem (most of the time >_> ). My experience with Feisty Fawn has been flawless, and I recommend it to everyone now.

Maybe my system's just a bit faster to get over some threshold, but my laptop's 3 years old and nothing to brag about anymore (was a nice gaming laptop when I bought it). I'm guessing you had some hardware issue or, perhaps, were you using Edgy Eft? Feisty Fawn feels lightyears ahead of Edgy.

C64!

[Anonymous Coward]

1000 INC $D020
1003 JMP $1000

READY
SYS 4096

Re:I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other sho

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want me to elaborate, post a comment on my blog and I will post a blog about it. Basically, I could not easily see a place to configure it in the GUI; the pulldown list of wireless encryption algorithms only showed WEP. I was able to set up WPA---I'm using WPA in Ubuntu to post this message, in fact---but I had to use apt-get to install packages. I also had to edit text files.

Windows doesn't have to be "insecure"

[Anonymous Coward]

"But, I'm sick and tired of all its insecurities. All of the stupid worms and viruses that I constantly need to worry about, and the pop-ups or pop-unders that hoses Internet Explorer as well as the security of your system" - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 27, @03:36AM (#20007227)

Be 'sick & tired', no longer:

APK "12-step program" to a secure Windows-NT based (2000/XP/Server 2003/VISTA) PC:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?s=6d8 691c6bb63746854de7fc655435648&p=375355#post375355

SCREENSHOT PROOF OF CIS TOOL 1.x (multi-platform security test by THE CENTER FOR INTERNET SECURITY):

http://img.techpowerup.org/070618/APK14SecurityPoi ntsCISToolResult84735.jpg

Use that guide/roadmap in the 1st URL link listed above, & you'll get an 84.735 of 100 possible score on the Multi-Platform (runs on Solaris, Linux variants, & BSD variants (sorry, no MacOS X or OpenBSD ports yet though afaik) CIS Tool 1.x security analysis tool... that is the HIGHEST I can go, & still be online + do things I need to do!

APK

P.S.=> The guide's a BIT more "advanced" & complex than most you see online, & goes WAY farther into using the concept of "layered security" than most do as well, but it is about 1-2 hours of work for an experienced user @ most, for years of uptime, stability, extra speed, AND ABOVE ALL ELSE, security! apk

Lenovo

[A non-mouse Coward]

Will other Linux flavors find their way to the likes of Lenovo ... ?

I for one, would love to see Ubuntu on Lenovo, especially if they provide drivers and hooks for the fingerprint reader. [Note: it's not better security, it's more convenient security.]

there are forces working against further adoption.

[buddyglass]

Dell's in this for the money. They wouldn't have offered linux support if they didn't think it would help them sell more hardware, get better PR, etc. That's fine. But how much demand would there be for Dell's linux boxes if HP, Lenovo, Toshiba and Acer also had linux offerings? Answer: not nearly as much. That makes me curious what sort of behind-the-scenes deals Dell cut w/ Canonical w/ regards to the latter supporting other PC manufacturers' efforts to support linux. Obviously they can't stop it entirely; the code is open source. But it seems feasible that Canonical could have entered into a contract w/ Dell that prevents it from entering into support agreements with Dell's competitors. Or is that illegal?

Re:I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other sho

[ericrost]

Your blog (which this is not a promo for) has all its post comments crap in spanish, which I don't speak.

I'm just wondering why you had to install wpa-supplicant under feisty when its in the base install. Maybe its the alternate install cd?

Anyway, make your blog readable (ie get rid of the crap background and put the comments stuff in English when your content is in English) and maybe someone WILL comment. But it won't be me.

FYI, I'm also using the most Linux un-friendly wifi card (broadcom that doesn't work with the reverse engineered driver, so ndiswrapper). If you installed network-manager instead of piecing it together and I'm betting using network-manager-gnome off of an old edgy faq you wouldn't have had to touch anything.

This does show the downside of all the old forum faq's lying around, but also shows what people will put themselves through without first asking if an FAQ still applies after a new release.

Affordable??

[sworoc]

Did you just use iPhone and affordable in the same paragraph?

Vista Has Failed.

[twitter]

I predicted Dell's announcement three days ago. Vista has failed in the market place and the vendor revolt is on, as evidenced by bold statements from the fourth largest PC maker. With vendors now backing gnu/linux, M$'s monopoly is over. Good Riddance, this will be good for everyone.

The tipping point is here.

Re:Vista Has Failed.

[Macthorpe]

Um, Dell selling more Linux PCs is not the same as Dell saying Vista has failed. On the contrary, they've said nothing of the sort.

If you're under the delusion that they're selling more Linux PCs for any reason other than that they get money when they sell more PCs, then you're a misguided fool.

Free software will give you both.

[twitter]

Actually, I think the $200 Asus EEE is more the way to go than cheap desktops. Laptops are already outselling desktops, so a mobile offering makes more sense to focus on.

All sorts of big beige boxes can be replaced with a compact, sub $200 computer. Don't count the market for desktops out yet - as M$ breaks XP there will be a wave of replacement buying and upgrades. All of those XP boxes already have nice LCDs, replacing XP with a $200 gnu/linux box would be cheaper than another XP or Vista install by far.

Re:Free software will give you both.

[dedazo]

as M$ breaks XP

You mean when "M$" stops supporting it in 2014, or are you referring to something else?

Without a Carrot, M$ has No Stick.

[twitter]

I'm waiting for a Microsoft rep to go to Dell's offices and say "You know, we really can't give you the volume discounts that we've been offering you if you continue to sell those Linux laptops".

and Dell would be happy to report such a thing to the DOJ. Why? Because Vista is buggy and not selling. The vendor revolt is on and there will be nothing but more of this. The upgrade train is out of steam, and vendors need to sell something before smaller vendors eat their lunch with $200 gnu/linux PCs that are about to flood the market.

Just think of it as 1993, but this time the good guys win. The non free software monopoly was crazy from the start, now it's over.

Makes my decision even harder. Dell vs System76

[cexshun]

I've been shopping for a replacement desktop and am at a loss. I've narrowed it down to 3 companies.
Dell
System76
Zareason

Dell, by far, has the best pricing. System76 has the best support. Zareason has good pricing and encourages you to open up the PC and play with it. Zareason even includes a screwdriver with every purchase.

I'm very afraid of the Shuttle form factor from Zareason due to heat reasons and expandability. My main 2 choices are probably Dell and System76. I'm drawn between price vs support here. I have 6 years Slackware experience, so I am in doubt that I really need to pay the extra money for 1 year support on Ubuntu.

Pricing out 2 comparable budget desktop PCs from Dell and System76 results in quite a price difference. Although the System76 does use the 1066 FSB CPUs vs the 800FSB that Dell offers.

System76
Intel E6300
1GB RAM
160GB HDD
DVD-RW
NVIDIA 6200
Total Price:$734.00

Dell
Intel E4300
1GB RAM
160GB HDD
DVD-RW
NVIDIA 8300
Total Price:$479.00

That's quite a difference for systems that are relatively similar. Anybody have any insight? Buying my first house for my family makes the Value vs. Fanboy-ism a much more difficult decision.

Re:Makes my decision even harder. Dell vs System76

[Emetophobe]

Just by looking at those specs, the reason for the price difference is probably:

1. Dell E4300 vs System76 E6300 (Allendale vs Conroe)
2. Dell probably gets much better volume discounts so they can offer parts for cheaper
3. System76 probably charges more for putting a PC together and doesn't sell nearly as many PCs as Dell, so they need a wider profit margin per PC.

Still, $255 is a pretty big difference for such similar systems, Dell must really get good bulk discounts and/or they're selling each PC at razor thin profit margins.

Re:Makes my decision even harder. Dell vs System76

[Anonymous Coward]

What's weird is that when Dell first offered Ubuntu, they had faster CPUs available on the low-end platform (521N I think?). Now they took that away and replaced it with the 531N (or something like that), and removed the faster CPUs. I don't get it. I guess they want to force you to buy the more expensive XPS if you want a decent CPU.

If I were you, I'd look at Dell's freedos configurations (dell.com/open), and then just install Ubuntu on one of those, since you can get a faster CPU. Also, you'll usually save money by choosing built-in video and minimal RAM, and then buying upgrades from newegg.

Re:Makes my decision even harder. Dell vs System76

[Krishnoid]

Buying my first house for my family makes the Value vs. Fanboy-ism a much more difficult decision.

It's a one-shot purchase (not recurring) and not a significant chunk of your mortgage, I'd not worry about it. If you went through a financial crisis, a single $250 purchase isn't going to make the difference in keeping/losing your house a month longer/earlier.

On the other hand, taking the money you save and spending it on one of these or the 10-cup model will save you a bunch of time. So you might want to go with the cheaper system. But probably not because of the house purchase.

No, Vista is Buggy Enough PreConfigured.

[twitter]

What I'd like to know is how many of the boxes sold with preinstalled linux, actually get used as linux boxes.

I'd say 100%. Dell already has cheaper freeDOS and no OS computers but they did not sell. People asking Dell for gnu/linux are asking for gnu/linux friendly hardware. They can get the same from white box makers who charge less.

If anything Dell underestimates gnu/linux installs. There are many people at business and state locations that must purchase Dell due to licensing requirements. They have site licenses for Windoze and set procedures for buying PCs. None of those are ever reported as gnu/linux but many are converted anyway. Dell has said that they won't sell gnu/linux to businesses, let's hope they change their mind and start counting.

Besides that, the upgrade train has moved on but fallen over a cliff. Vista is a dissaster.

Acer has revolted. More will follow.

[twitter]

I've not heard of any small or even medium sized OEM looking to market to the everyday PC consumer "switching to Ubuntu as their OS of choice".

Is Acer big enough for you? Vista has let them, and they claim everyone else, down. If there was money to be made from M$ in the future, no one would dare say or do these things, but there's not. Non free has failed and $200 gnu/linux computers are going to take over the market.

Here's what it looks like:

• Microsoft TCO, part 1
• Microsoft TCO, part 2

Linux in Prime Time

[theatrecade]

I've been a Linux enthusiast for years. I've switched distros several times. I've finally found one i'm comfortable with and will suggest to people tired of the M$/Anti-everything software headache. I find it kinda comforting that the time i spent learning linux as a user and a tech will soon (in the next 5-10 years) become a commodity that will be somewhat common place if dell really takes making linux boxes available. I see many manufactures following the footsteps of Dell if their sales of linux rises. I hope it's a case of monkey see monkey do.

Ubuntu for home and Redhat for Enterprise

[phrostie]

i think the field will end up being Ubuntu for home and Redhat for Enterprise.

Redhat has shown that they area stable business for many years. they've weathered all the shit storms that have been dumped on them and keep on going.

Ubuntu is just a good desktop. i can see them taking the home/newbie markets for years to come.

What i would LOVE to see now...

[pjr.cc]

Is Dell/Ubuntu/whoever turn around to the games makers and go:

"Hey games boys, some of you port to mac already, what would it take to convince you that linux is a worthwhile proposition also?" (perhaps even with the whole "its just a jump to the left, and a step to the riiiiiight" in full rocky horror picture show style - though i really REALLY dont want to see Shuttleworth in a teddy).

I'd love to see the answer. Was very bitterly disappointed to see bioware not put out nwn2 for linux.

The point being of course that if you can put the gamer in front of linux I personally think you'll be winning quite a large battle if only in small parts. The number of people i know who have a pc solely for games, email, web and chat is not inconsequential and linux can do 3 out of 4 of those very efficiently already.

Really?

[Psychopundit]

I thought the Inspiron line was only killed off and replaced by Vostro on the Small Business side of Fell. AFAIK, Inspiron is alive and well on Home/Home Office. In fact, they recently introduced an Inspiron line of desktops as well. (The merits of this are another discussion.)

Re:Really?

[Psychopundit]

^^^^ errr, "Fell" = "Dell"

Re:Really?

[BrianGKUAC]

The home/home office "New Inspiron" is a relabeled Vostro with nifty colors. They still seem to have the standard 1501 on their site, but I don't see that lasting as special deals on the new line start to come out.

The Inspiron Desktops are also relabeled Vostros. They're all the same newer hardware, but the home/home office ones still get crapware.

M$ is worried and starting to eliminate XP.

[twitter]

M$ Fanboy dedazo ignorantly imagines another seven years of XP:

You mean when "M$" stops supporting it in 2014, or are you referring to something else?

Why anyone would want to run XP as a primary OS today is hard to fathom, but M$ is not going to help you do it for the next seven years. Have a look at talk like this:

Michael Cherry, analyst with Directions at Microsoft, ... It's possible, Cherry added, that Microsoft might find itself forced to recognise more reality in the future. "At some point, they might have to consider [further] limiting the availability of XP," to push people to Vista.

XP does not make enough money to support the M$ monopoly so it's going to get the axe.

M$ Windoze LOLZORZ

[dedazo]

Limiting the availability of XP does not mean they are going to "break it", which was the FUD insinuation you originally made. Microsoft (oh, I'm sorry, "M$") limited the availability of "Windoze" 2000 and people continued to use it. And they still do.

Anything else? This is really easy.

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[RAMMS EIN]

``It was rough around the edges, but the graphical system usually always sorta worked. If XWindows crashed, then I would just CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE it to reset X. Execute startx from the command line and I'm back up and running again - no need to reboot the operating system. So the base OS was stable. I loved that.''

Ah, yeah, those were the days...

``I just installed Ubuntu on my 4 year old computer, an old AMD Athlon XP 2200 with 1 GB of RAM. And boy is the desktop GUI slow!''

It is? It never ceases to amaze me how the desktop environment devs manage to screw it up every time...

``What I loved most about Ubuntu, was the ease of installing new software. Fire up Synaptics Package Manager, search for your software, select install, click OK, walk away, and it's done! Wow! Now that is something to brag about! I didn't even have to worry about scanning the file for a virus, or even think of where to install it.''

Now, that is the difference between people who have "tried Linux" and those who "get it". You don't _want_ an install.exe that gives you fancy colorful windows and contains all the DLLs your software needs. What you want is easy software installation. Debian (and Ubuntu) rules there.

``But I love the Windows GUI. It's clean, simple, and it works.''

Ah, yeah? When I see Windows programs, I can't help what an inconsistent, clunky mess they are. And ugly!! What happens if I click [Ok] in this ugly grey window? Haven't they heard of actually labeling buttons with the actions they perform? Haven't they heard of themes?

``Apple's famed OSX. And I've been seriously looking at it now. The GUI works like butter. Everything seems to just flow like water with it.''

Hehe, nice pun!

``But I could be wrong, since I only spent 20 minutes playing with it.''

Which means you didn't get to the part where you have to update your software (remember, security!) and you need to use (1) Software Update (2) fink (or DarwinPorts or whatever) (3) half a dozen custom updaters (4) download and install a few programs by hand. apt-get update && apt-get upgrade? Forget it!

``And plus, I can still run Linux binaries on it!''

Binaries? I don't think. A lot of open source software can be compiled (with various degrees of kludging) on OS X, but, AFAIK, there's no binary compatibility.

``The Linux Desktop GUI still sucks after all these years.''

The beauty of Linux (and *nix in general) is that it offers you _choice_. You can use KDE, which is sort of Windows-like. You can use KDE, and it'll be sort of like Windows: lots of icons and buttons and wizards and it's all a big mess. Or you can use GNOME, and it will be sort of like OS X: clean and consistent, with little functionality and eating an amount of RAM you wouldn't believe. Or you can use XFCE and it will be like one of the old Unix desktops, except better looking and really really snappy. Or you can be totally weird and run something like ion, where you have a GUI with no windows and no taskbars and no need of a mouse and nobody but you will understand how to use your computer.

Oh, and you can set up everything to work just the way you want to, too.

``I just downloaded KUbuntu the other day. ... But it's not supported as the main OS from Ubuntu.''

I don't think you need to worry about that. As far as I know, Ubuntu and Kubuntu are pretty much the same quality. I'm not sure the same is true of Xubuntu, but if you like light software, you might want to give that one a try, too.

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[Anonymous Coward]

Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu, and Edubuntu are all fully supported. Just sometimes you might find GNOME-only instructions.

Europe

[BlueParrot]

Ok Dell, well done. Just one minor detail... SHIP IT TO EUROPE! :'(

Re:Europe

[Emetophobe]

...and Canada!

From http://www.dell.ca/ (do a search for Ubuntu):

Dell Canada does not offer Ubuntu
We currently do not offer Ubuntu or any other open source solution. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Check out the Dell Community forums for additional information.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll be offering Linux laptops in other countries soon. No word yet as to which countries though.

Dell Canada doesn't offer Ubuntu

[Emetophobe]

I went to http://www.dell.ca/ to check out Ubuntu laptop prices and was greeted with this message when I did a search for Ubuntu:

"Dell Canada does not offer Ubuntu
We currently do not offer Ubuntu or any other open source solution. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Check out the Dell Community forums for additional information."

Needless to say, I was pretty disappointed. Why isn't Dell selling Ubuntu PCs in Canada?

Re:Dell Canada doesn't offer Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Why isn't Dell selling Ubuntu PCs in Canada? I'm sure you know the answer yourself, but anyway, I'd guess it's because they are still experimenting with selling machines loaded with Ubuntu. So far it seems this experiment is going good, which probably means that they are going to expand their Ubuntu offerings also outside USA at some point.

Installing Ubuntu on the machines is certainly not what is stopping them from selling machines outside USA right now, it's all the other services they have to take care of. You know, providing support over phone for customers who have the Ubuntu laptop etc.

Re:Dell Canada doesn't offer Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm paranoid but, could be they won't ship outside the US because thats where they might have _too much_ success... (surfing on anti-americanism)
I am still not convinced about Dell's position.
I fear they might just start to sell some ubuntu PCs to show they're trying to.. and then claim it didn't work and shutdown the whole thing (with a nice OEM discount from Micro$oft)
would sound like the GM electric car story for those who heard about ( see "Who kill the electric car?" movie... very interesting.)

Re:What is it about the Linux Desktop GUI that suc

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the same quality. Kubuntu is a bit less polished the regular Ubuntu, and it was the latest versions I tried out. For example Kubuntu doesn't have the restricted drivers manager installed, presumably because it is a GTK app and they wanted a QT version for Kubuntu. Although I still personally prefer Kubuntu because of the KDE desktop.

Re:Acer has revolted. More will follow.

[Macthorpe]

Again, Acer haven't said they're switching away from Vista (because they aren't). I don't know what the CEO's game is, and neither do you.

Re:there are forces working against further adopti

[buddyglass]

You're the first person to complain. Posting with typos like "to to" may not cause anyone to suspect you're an idiot, but it definitely makes you look lazy.

Re:Vista Has Failed, M$ Monopoly is Over.

[Macthorpe]

I was going to deconstruct your post as I normally do, but really it's all just one massive lie formed, like a gestalt, of many tiny untruths.

Jesus that's lame

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft TCO, part 1

That's not even vestigial humour. Not even close. It's just painfully stupid.

Re:Jesus that's lame

[twitter]

A Jesus that's lame? Didn't he cure himself?

Re:there are forces working against further adopti

[matthewcraig]

Actually, it seems to be very much in line with how the American language has developed in the last 200-250 years. Abbreviations of common words have been the way things were written especially in colonial days. Mr. Benjamin Franklin was even a strong supporter of the time savings of abbreviation, and he spends a good section of his autobiography discussing the topic.

I won't dispute whether you find it irritating or who might agree with you, but what he is doing is not unlike what many have attempted to do before him. Not only was it common in American history, but we continue to use many of those shortcuts today. What's the reason you don't object to IBM corp., or RMS from MA? Do you have a B.A. in CS from UCLA or something? You'd best talk to Senator Joseph A. Smith (R-Minn.).

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, it's "not a Vista issue" that none of my applications work, but that doesn't really make Vista more useful to me, does it?

So this is a great time to switch to something else, because we're obviously going to have to get all new software, anyhow. When you factor in training, etc., it only makes sense to get off the upgrade treadmill while you can.

Microsoft is facing the first real competition in quite a while. I'm not writing them out of the game by any means, but they're facing pressure on both their OS and Office. These are the ONLY two profitable divisions in Microsoft and the sheer amount of scrambling they're doing tells me they're not just taking this lightly.

Which is, of course, why I'm not about to predict their death any time soon. My hope is that the top brass all retire, and they eventually reform like IBM did.

Wrong answer, kid

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell's a public company.

dell windows machines cheaper than ubuntu machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Dells sells a low end windows machine for $349 USD but the cheapest Ubuntu box is $499. When they at least give me a $10-25 discount for buying the same machine with ubuntu vs. windows, or no O.S. at all, I will be calling. Why would I pay $150 extra for the privilege of using ubuntu, when I would be overwriting it with Fedora anyway?

Re:I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other sho

[Anonymous Coward]

Your blog (which this is not a promo for) has all its post comments crap in spanish, which I don't speak.

I don't have much respect for this kind of Xenophobia, so have no respect for you.

Not enough. Dollah $igns.

[Anonymous Coward]

and Dell would be happy to report $uch a thing to the DOJ. Why? Becau$e Vi$ta i$ buggy and not $elling. The vendor revolt i$ on and there will be nothing but more of thi$. The upgrade train i$ out of $team, and vendor$ need to $ell $omething before $maller vendor$ eat their lunch with $200 gnu/linux PC$ that are about to flood the market.

Ju$t think of it a$ 1993, but thi$ time the good guy$ win. The non free $oftware monopoly wa$ crazy from the $tart, now it'$ over.

Not enough. Dollah $igns.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd $ay 100%. Dell already ha$ cheaper freeDO$ and no O$ computer$ but they did not $ell. People a$king Dell for gnu/lin$ux are a$king for gnu/lin$ux friendly hardware. They can get the $ame from white box maker$ who charge le$$.

If anything Dell undere$timate$ gnu/linux in$tall$. There are many people at bu$ine$$ and $tate location$ that mu$t purcha$e Dell due to licen$ing requirement$. They have $ite licen$e$ for Windows and $et procedure$ for buying PC$. None of tho$e are ever reported a$ gnu/lin$ux but many are converted anyway. Dell ha$ $aid that they won't $ell gnu/linux to bu$ine$$e$, let'$ hope they change their mind and $tart counting.

Be$ide$ that, the upgrade train ha$ moved on but fallen over a cliff. Vi$ta i$ a di$a$ter.

Re:I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other sho

[ericrost]

When your content is in English (which I speak) and your controls are in Spanish (which my puerto rican wife speaks, but I don't, I'm not good with other languages) it doesn't make much sense. Pick one or the other, or you're going to alienate a general audience from your blog.

And the snap to "xenophobia" for not speaking a language, which IS the only thing I said, is pretty pathetic.

So fuck off.

Accounting problem.

[Chas]

"And, yes, these are high-quality parts that have equivalent or better specs and warranty."

I don't think so. It doesn't start REALLY becoming price equivallent until you begin doing stuff like processor upgrades and memory add-ons, where Dell begins with the price premiums.

Dell XPS 720: $3049

Equivallency Special

$ 320: Q6600 Processor
$ 308: Asus Strike Extreme
$ 657: BFG GeForce 8800 GTX
$ 608: Corsair Dominator Memory 2x1GB
$ 212: 150GB Western Digital Raptor
$ 399: Dell 2007WFP 20" Monitor
$ 109: XP Media Center 2005
$ 140: Antec Nine Hundred case
$ 199: Thermaltake 750W PSU
$ 35: CD/DVD Burner
$ 56: SB X-Fi Sound
$ 54: 29W 2.1 Creative Labs Speakers
$ 27: Keyboard and mouse (cheapo)

$3124: TOTAL

Note: This is a system based on components bought online and shipped to you that you build YOURSELF.
Note: There are 20" monitors out there of equivallent specs that are cheaper than the Dell monitor. You can shave about $120 by going with an equivallent like a Viewsonic.

Buying from a local brick and mortar is bound to be more expensive still, PLUS having them ASSEMBLED FOR YOU is going to tack on even more money.

I've been doing the system integration game for quite a while here. While I could UNDOUBTEDLY get the price down, I'd have to use completely inferior parts that will almost CERTAINLY cut into my warranty profits when (not IF) they fail.

Re:I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other sho

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not good with other languages

BS. If you're a computer programmer, you have already learned other languages (Such as, say, shell scripting, Perl, PHP, Java, HTML, or whatever). It sounds like you just haven't had a good Spanish teacher [1]. One issue, for example, is that some learners have is that some teachers expect people to be able to learn Spanish by just hearing them say the words in Spanish. Many learners don't learn this way: They have to look at the word to remember it.

Understanding people who speak Spanish at their normal pace takes years. However, one can learn how to say basic greetings like "Good day" (Buenos días) and what not very quickly. This will be enough that your in-laws will be more friendly.

So, yes, you can learn Spanish. It's just a matter of getting the right teacher. The grammar with the verbs is a little more complicated than English's grammar, but I don't think it's anything you can't handle.

As for the other content, I apologize for snapping at you like that; keep in mind that my girlfriend speaks only Spanish, so people who come off as disrespecting Spanish cause my blood to boil rather quickly. And, yes, I have fixed my blog; the color is now black-on-white instead of blue-on-black, and the user interface items are in English (took me a while to find that it; it's well hidden [2] and I was in Mexico when I made the blog, so they figured I would blog in Spanish). Thanks for the feedback.

[1] No disrespect to you wife if she has tried to teach you Spanish. Non-linguists can have difficulty knowing how to teach a foreign language.

[2] And, strangely enough, Blogger makes it easy to change the language your interface is in, but hard to change the interface for other users.

Re:I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other sho

[ericrost]

Not a programmer, just a tech geek. I'm actually a mechanical engineer, but I get into IT stuff because of my background. I can hack a little in C and Fortran, but, like most other languages, I'm not that great at them. I'm looking to pick up a bit of Python and give it a go (hacking some Ubuntu stuff) but we'll see.

Re:I'm waiting for Microsoft to drop the other sho

[BBandCMKRNL]

I'm not good with other languages

BS. If you're a computer programmer, you have already learned other languages (Such as, say, shell scripting, Perl, PHP, Java, HTML, or whatever). It sounds like you just haven't had a good Spanish teacher [1]. One issue, for example, is that some learners have is that some teachers expect people to be able to learn Spanish by just hearing them say the words in Spanish. Many learners don't learn this way: They have to look at the word to remember it. English is my wife's third language and she speaks it better than most Americans. When she temped, she usually tested at expert level in all the MS Office tools, including Excel. However, bring algebra into the equation and she just doesn't get it.

I've been writing code since the IBM 360 Assembler days and have written code professionally in several languages. The only reason I passed my foreign language course in High School was because of the tutoring of my foreign language teachers. Even with one-on-one tutoring, the best I could manage was a 'C'. I still had more 'D's.

We have lived in an anglo-minority town for 5+ years. I still can't read the non-English billboards. About all I can manage in the majority language here is 'Hello', 'Good-bye', 'Yes', 'No', 'Thank you', and 'You are welcome'.

Learning a foreign language and learning a programming language are two completely different things.

That must be specific to your machine.

[jotaeleemeese]

I have 2 Ubuntu machines and in general do not need to reboot after upgrades (if you let pass to long between updates you may accumulate enough of the ones that require a reboot, but I have seen only one or two of those since Ubuntu7.x was introduced.