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Chinese Pirates Copy iPhone, Make Improvements

An anonymous reader writes "Popular Science notes that manufacturers in China duplicate many well-know products. This includes the Apple iPhone, imitations of which are rolling off the assembly line already. That might actually be a good thing for some users, who might enjoy the user experience of China's own miniOne. 'It ran popular mobile software that the iPhone wouldn't. It worked with nearly every worldwide cellphone carrier, not just AT&T, and not only in the U.S. It promised to cost half as much as the iPhone and be available to 10 times as many consumers.' The cloned iPhone uses a Linux-based system. 'The cloners hire a team of between 20 and 40 engineers to begin decoding the circuit boards. At the same time, coders start to develop an operating system for the phone with a similar feature set. (The typical cloner either uses off-the-shelf code, writes something entirely new, or modifies a publicly available Linux-based system.)' Using the iPhone as an example, the PopSci site walks through the process of making imitation technology."

104 of 716 comments (clear)

  1. As with all knockoffs by Joebert · · Score: 2, Funny

    iGroan.

    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    1. Re:As with all knockoffs by porkThreeWays · · Score: 3, Funny

      Pfft. I know a genuine Panaphonics when I see it. And look, there's Magnetbox and Sorny.

      Listen, I'm not going to lie to you. Those are all superior machines. But if you like to watch your TV, and I mean _really_ watch it, you want the Carnivale'. It features two-pronged wall plug, pre-molded hand grip well, durable outer casing to prevent fallapart...

      --
      If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
    2. Re:As with all knockoffs by lottameez · · Score: 3, Funny

      chiPhone

      --
      Yeah? Well I think you're overrated too.
  2. Cool! by FatSean · · Score: 2, Funny

    Capitalism puts the smack down on the hippy dippy Apple company once again!

    --
    Blar.
    1. Re:Cool! by Analogy+Man · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Reverse engineering someone's product to market your own substitute would describe a something besides capitalism in my opinion.

      Say what you like about Apple, there should be some rewards for innovation.

      --
      When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
    2. Re:Cool! by imsabbel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >> Reverse engineering someone's product to market your own substitute would describe a something besides capitalism in my opinion

      Can you explain why?
      Isnt the ability to make a similar product cheaper the sheer essence of capitalism?
      Arent all those les afaire capitalists complaining about arbitrary limitation of the market forces?

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    3. Re:Cool! by Ironsides · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can you explain why?
      Isnt the ability to make a similar product cheaper the sheer essence of capitalism?
      Arent all those les afaire capitalists complaining about arbitrary limitation of the market forces? Maybe because they aren't completely 'making' the product when they copy the internal workings of another? Development costs are a real factor in the manufacturing of a product. Someone who gets to copy another's product without paying the development costs reaps an unfair advantage, it's just like industrial espionage.

      Also, if you will note, twice the mention knockoffs that are inferior:
      "These clones bear our name and address," David Blackburn, the company's CEO, told the U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission. "The label . . . contains our catalog part number and the initials of a calibrator, as well as a final tester."

      Now, how does selling a counterfeit under someone else's name fit in to your view of capitalism?

      The Chery QQ demonstrates more than just the skill of modern cloning. It also illustrates the danger. Easy-fit doors and rearview mirrors aside, there are differences--scary differences--between the Spark/Matiz and the QQ. As news of the copycat car spread last year, a German automotive club conducted and videotaped a comparative crash test between the two vehicles. When the Matiz hits the barrier, the front end crumples. The rear of the car bucks upward and then thuds back to the ground. An impact chart shows serious yet nonfatal injuries to both the driver's and passenger's head and legs (the chart distinguishes impact with color: the redder the deadlier). The Chery hits the obstacle at the same speed. The rear end of the car lifts higher than the Matiz and begins to rotate. The driver-side door pops open. Hood, engine and roof crumple into the passenger compartment. The frame buckles, bringing the vehicle flat to the ground. On the impact chart, the driver's head, neck and chest are brown and red: not survivable.
      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    4. Re:Cool! by jabuzz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right this is the UK here, can we have damages with interest for all the stuff the USA ripped off in the 19th century from us then please. Pot meet Kettle.

    5. Re:Cool! by omeomi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      true, but unfortunately, it's worked for them in the past. Why do you think so many products are made in China:

      Company makes product.

      China copies product.

      Company notices China's version is almost as good, and contracts with them to make their product at a fraction of the cost.

      ???.

      Profit!

    6. Re:Cool! by djasbestos · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Now, how does selling a counterfeit under someone else's name fit in to your view of capitalism?
      Pure, unfettered greed from pure, unfettered competition. I guess all those laissez-faire capitalists forgot about China, huh? Doesn't work so well without the Man there to *gasp* regulate business!!! "But that's SOCIALISM!!" Oh noes!

      Just because the quality *might* be shit won't stop people from buying cheaper a knock-off. Unregulated competition is the definition of pure capitalism as any Milton-loving Libertarian or Republican (Mitt Romney?) would tell you. Can't have your cake and eat it too, I suppose is the moral.

      GP is right.

    7. Re:Cool! by king-manic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe because they aren't completely 'making' the product when they copy the internal workings of another? Development costs are a real factor in the manufacturing of a product. Someone who gets to copy another's product without paying the development costs reaps an unfair advantage, it's just like industrial espionage.

      Capatalism doesn't diallow this. Your trying to attach notions of innovation with capalism but it's not an inherent part. Look at the free wheeling capalism at the turn of the century. Or even the capalaism of the US ve Europe. MAssive technical espionage and stealing of ideas, designs, machines etc...Even as little as 25 years ago with the massive cloning of the IBM PC. The Theft of ideas has always been a part of capalism.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    8. Re:Cool! by king-manic · · Score: 5, Informative

      Socialism killed millions of people and impoverished billions. Regulation is a violent intervention in peaceful trade, it's legitimate to oppose it, with force if necessary.

      Communism != socialism. Sweden, denmark, Canada etc.. are socialists. USSR, China and Cuba are Communist. Stop it with the confused drivel.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    9. Re:Cool! by Arthur+B. · · Score: 4, Informative

      Communism is a phase that is supposed to follow socialism. In communism the means of production are allegedly shared by everyone but this is preceded by socialism which consist in the dictatorship of the proletariat and state ownership of means of production.

      Sweden, Denmark are social-democracies, not socialist countries even though they do rely on socialism as an ideology.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    10. Re:Cool! by Arthur+B. · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As long as the purchaser agrees to purchase at his own risk it is peaceful. Otherwise if I am making any false claim of safety or fail to mention what should obviously be mentioned it's no longer peaceful. If I kill people when I produce my product it makes me a murderer, it has nothing to do with trade, you are mixing different issues here.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    11. Re:Cool! by Skreems · · Score: 3, Informative

      Fascism != Communism. USSR and China are fascist dictatorships. Cuba kind of is, but a more benevolent one perhaps. Anyway, don't confuse the evils of fascism with communism.

      --
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      The Urban Hippie
    12. Re:Cool! by jandersen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now, how does selling a counterfeit under someone else's name fit in to your view of capitalism?

      The key issue here, I think, is one of honesty and decency. Have a look at some typical products developed in the capitalist West: MacDonald hamburgers, most cosmetics, most 'health' products. MacDonald meals are full of fat, sugar, soy powder and other 'goodies' that are basically ruining the health of the nation because they are being power-sold to our children through TV - this is certainly very capitalistic, but is it right? Is it 'deceny and honesty'? I think not. Cosmetics companies try to convince you that using their products will make your skin younger - which can't be called anything but a flat out lie; and the same can be said about all these dubious health products, which at best have no effect, or worst are harmful. Very capitalistic - you make as big a profit as possible no matter what - but fundamentally dishonest and indecent. Seen from this angle I think ripping off somebody and counterfeiting their product fits right in.

      There is another facet to this that is always ignored when people complain about China, namely the cultural difference. We in the West have got used to the idea that copying the work of others is wrong (although it has not been this way for long - I remember that The Lord of the Rings was in the beginning copied and sold in the US without permission from Tolkien). In China there is a long tradition for copying great masters, certainly in arts, but also in other matters. After all, if something is good, why not? I am not saying that this excuses making illegal copies, but that's the way it is. 2000+ years of habits don't die overnight.

    13. Re:Cool! by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Patents are regulation. Copyright is regulation. Trademarks are regulation. Welcome to the real world.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    14. Re:Cool! by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 3, Interesting
      No, the iPod was about "here's something that's easier to use". Do you really think that they have sold so many just based upon the fact that it's made by Apple? If so, why didn't it work in the same way for the Newton, the Lisa and just about any other item in their product lines? Would it have sold so well if it cost 30% less but had an interface that totally sucked? You may not like it, but there are millions of people who do.

      Besides, if there were nothing new nor interesting about the iPhone, why would the Chinese company worked so hard to make an almost exact copy of it?

    15. Re:Cool! by king-manic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These are not related. IBM chose to use off the shelf components which could be reverse engineered using interestingly enough a Chinese wall.

      Here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wall

      The assumption that the clones of IBM were not legitimate or that anybody that clones the iPhone is inherently cheating is completely incorrect. Anybody that opens an iPhone up and reads the logic, who then uses that to duplicate the iPhone completely would be opening themselves to lawsuits. Using the Chinese wall method, has been found many times to be a legitimate form of reverse engineering.

      That is how capitalism works, somebody has an idea, and sells it, somebody else finds a way of duplicating it for less money and endeavors to drive the first guy out of business. Just because what we have now is so bastardized from capitalism, doesn't mean that the definition should change.


      Reverse engineering / Chinese wall is simply a more abstracted way to copy and use someone elses ideas. I agree it's pretty much a intergral part of capitalism.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    16. Re:Cool! by Ironsides · · Score: 2, Informative

      decent and honest

      Sorry, but McDonald's never said they were a health food store and the cosmetics say look and feel younger, not make it younger.

      Lord of the Rings? Some screwy thing in copyright law involving a difference between paperback and hardback books. Did you ever notice how any decent publisher still payed royalties to Tolkien even thought they didn't have to?

      In China there is a long tradition for copying great masters, certainly in arts, but also in other matters. After all, if something is good, why not?

      So, do they see copying homework and research and taking credit for it as their own as good as well?

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    17. Re:Cool! by Ironsides · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry, but I don't remember "lying about your product" being part of Capitalism. Claiming something you make was made by someone else to a higher degree of quality definitely is not "truth in advertising".

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    18. Re:Cool! by SpecTheIntro · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Pure, unfettered greed from pure, unfettered competition. I guess all those laissez-faire capitalists forgot about China, huh? Doesn't work so well without the Man there to *gasp* regulate business!!! "But that's SOCIALISM!!" Oh noes!

      Right, because capitalism = greed. There is nothing "capitalistic" about stealing. Your definition of "competition" apparently also includes illegal activity. Laissez-faire economics does not say "the government should allow businesses to operate under whatever pretense they like." Here's its actual definition, from wikipedia: "It is generally understood to be a doctrine that maintains that private initiative and production are best allowed to roam free, opposing economic interventionism and taxation by the state beyond that which is perceived to be necessary to maintain individual liberty, peace, security, and property rights." (emphasis mine)

      Nowhere in that definition do I see "allow businesses to cheat, steal, or engage in other illicit activity."

      Unregulated competition is the definition of pure capitalism as any Milton-loving Libertarian or Republican (Mitt Romney?) would tell you.

      Except it's not--nice try at a straw man, though! You almost got it. Nobody (not even free market anarchists) asserts that "regulation" encompasses basic property and security law. It is not considered "regulatory" when the government arrests a businessman for killing a businessman from a competing firm. Nor would it be considered "regulatory" if the government punished one firm for stealing another firm's ideas outright. (Note that I don't consider reverse engineering to be stealing, but there is a healthy debate surrounding that issue.) So, you're 0 for 2.

      Just because the quality *might* be shit won't stop people from buying cheaper a knock-off.

      Why do you think Chinese goods are so much cheaper? The Chinese economy has posted record gains year after year, and they have staggering amounts of foreign investment. They continue to industrialize at a breakneck speed. Under any capitalist society, their currency's value should have skyrocketed by now; if anything, they should be dealing with inflation problems because their economy is growing so fast. But they're not, because they keep the value of the yuan artificially low, essentially dicking the rest of the world over in the process. That is why Chinese goods are so cheap. Japan and S. Korea experienced similar booms, but their products got more expensive as time passed, because their currencies were determined by the free market. China's essentially cheating, but due to their size and their strategic importance, there's not much we can do about it.

    19. Re:Cool! by an.echte.trilingue · · Score: 3, Informative

      Communism is a phase that is supposed to follow socialism.
      That is what (most) communists think. I doubt very much that socialists think that their preferred system is just a stepping stone to another system. Similarly, according to Marx, capitalism was a phase that that was "supposed" to precede communism. That does not mean that capitalists think that they are in a transitory phase for communism.

      Just because you like to lump everybody into a "left-right" continuum and everybody left of a democrat is a Das Kapital-thumping commie to you does not mean that that is the way everybody in that group of people thinks.

      not socialist countries even though they do rely on socialism as an ideology.
      So what, pray tell, makes you a socialist if not relying on and following socialism?
      --
      weirdest thing I ever saw: scientology advertising on slashdot.
    20. Re:Cool! by spun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That is the logical consequence of my beliefs, and why I believe in democratic control of the means of production. You make the claim that the ability of anyone, anywhere in the world to buy access to the means of production will never be limited in a true free market. If I saw this were the case, I would have no problem with private ownership.

      What I see is that the free market has failure modes which create a similar problem to the concentration of power in a governmental system. You have runaway feedback loops where those with money have more power to influence the market, tilting the playing field towards them and gaining more money with which to tilt the playing field even further. This leads to concentration of wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands. Eventually, people will be born who do not have the means to buy control of their own means of production. Those people will be virtual slaves to those who do own the means of production.

      I ask you, what in your system would keep this from happening?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    21. Re:Cool! by kestasjk · · Score: 2, Funny

      Argh! Do I side with Linux and anti-patenting, or with Apple and anti-outsourcing? It's a slashdotter's nightmare choice.

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      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    22. Re:Cool! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thanks for clearing that up. Why people who have clearly never even seen an econ textbook are so confident about their definition of economic terms is entirely beyond me.

      But then, the less you know the easier it is to be certain. Lo, behold the kettle that which is blackest.

      The GP refers to "property rights" as if that concept applies to knowledge. The problem with that assumption is, as any econ textbook will tell you, "property" has two defining qualities - it is excludable and rivalrous. Knowledge is neither and so his whole premise that cloners are somehow violating the principles of pure capitalism is completely without merit.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    23. Re:Cool! by grassy_knoll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Considering how many of their own citizens both Communism and Fascism killed, perhaps one could be forgiven for overlooking distinctions between them?

    24. Re:Cool! by nightgeometry · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Must be a different Cuba from the one I travelled round, the one I took a stack of books to (you can't take DVD players there though, weirdly - and that can mean problems with laptops, but if the drive can be removed, not a problem).

      Discussing politics with the people there didn't seem to be a problem either - some didn't like Castro, some did, some didn't like how a small number of families were getting wealthy, and recreating the class system, some didn't see it as a huge issue. Kinda like people everywhere.

      Didn't really eat much rice and the place is a nightmare for vegetarians though :(

      Best thing about Cuba though - you see hardly any Americans - that has to make it about the best destination in the world...

      --
      The best is the enemy of the good
    25. Re:Cool! by colmore · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Uh yeah, because having a "hippy" image (sort of) makes you somehow less capitalistic. They're a publicly traded company with a ferocious marketing department. Apple is as capitalistic as they come. But hey, way to buy the hype in a weird inverted way.

      --
      In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
    26. Re:Cool! by Speed+Pour · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With all due respect to Apple for the few things they can lay legitimate claim to for innovation, they are largely just a copycat company as well. Perhaps copycat isn't the right way to put it, they are simply too quick to brag about some new product being an innovation when it's really just an obvious combination of existing pieces. For example:

      I'll give a shred of credit for the iPod simply because they were the first to get it to market, despite the rather obvious detail that it wouldn't be long before somebody else did it anyway (Creative being the likely choice). After all, it's just an MP3 player (which already existed in heavy numbers) remixed with a hard drive.

      Apple lays claims to being the first to put together numerous graphical elements and tools in their OS. Unfortunately for them, there's not a single one of them I've seen or heard of that can't be traced to existing first in the Linux camp, or even a few from MS. Just like the Mouse, Apple is taking credit for other people's innovations.

      As for the iPhone, Apple simply copied the multi-touch display that was already being made a topic of much discussion for several years prior, combined it with the (external) look & feel plus the memory elements of the ipod (along with far too many of it's major flaws), and mashed all of that up with a GUI that looks and feels strangely similar to the MS Windows Media Center garbage (or at least any common place photo editing app with slide shows).

      I'll give credit to Apple for the work they put into the iPhone in terms of man hours, design expenses and the marketing research, but let's not confuse that with innovation. Cloners don't owe Apple anything on that front, and frankly, they don't appear to be cloning much more than surface design elements and fairly marginal elements of the internals and the base feature set (all things that many companies frequently copy "legally" all the time). Even before the iPhone was visible in any way publicly (including the patent applications), not a single feature of the iPhone didn't already exist in other phones on the market. Apple just spent the money tying it all together and decided to declare themselves brilliant for doing so...sound like the Segway, err "IT" to anybody else?

      --
      - Nobody would know what RTFA meant if it didn't need to be said all the time
    27. Re:Cool! by Arthur+B. · · Score: 2, Informative

      What kind of books did you bring? Didn't they check the content at customs? I've had many friends going to Cuba and they definitely check the books.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    28. Re:Cool! by Sapphon · · Score: 3, Funny

      So, you're saying, Fascism != Cubism? ^_^

      --
      Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
    29. Re:Cool! by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Fascism (as an extreme of capitalism) and Communism (as an extreme of socialism) are independent of authoritarianism and libertarianism. You can have both fascist dictatorships, such as Nazi Germany, and communist dictatorships, such as the USSR and China. In theory, you could have a libertarian, capitalist government (everyone, including corporations, are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want while the government sits around doing nothing) or a libertarian, socialist government (you pay taxes, and the government gives out money to help people but otherwise stays out of people's personal lives). The Political Compass is a good site to check out.

    30. Re:Cool! by AndersOSU · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here's an interesting thought. Marx made extensive use of Kantian dialectics, in which you have the thesis battling the antithesis until the synthesis arose.

      I've always wondered if Marx really thought that communism was the synthesis to the decadence of the bourgeoisie and the plight of the proletariat, or really recognized that it was a antithesis to capitalism and was merely promoting it to spur the development of a more amenable synthesis.

    31. Re:Cool! by Gulthek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      China is a fascist dictatorship? Since when? Who is the dictator? Elections are not a part of a dictatorship!

      When was China ever fascist? Ok, you should make a case for Qin Shi Huangdi, but he was uniting a empire after all. China was imperial until the early 1900's, then chaotic and nominally governed by chief warlord Yuan Shikai (but he was more military despot than fascist dictator), then went into the civil war of PRC vs. GMD, then came the Mao years (please don't tell me you think Mao was fascist!), then the modern Chinese capitalist government. Yes, I say capitalist because although they call themselves Communist, they aren't in any way anything but capitalist. China as a culture is so capitalist that it turned communism into capitalism!

    32. Re:Cool! by Serengeti · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But it's not CEO's that 'commit' anything. Sadly, while sharks they are, they are hired because of what they do well. It's up to the company owners/founders to be responsible about their actions regarding environmental waste concerns. And if we talk about publically traded companies... well, thats you and me, and whomever owns stock in these companies. After all, if you owned stock in Microsoft, would you vote for them to stop monopolistic practices? What would happen to the value of your stocks?

      It's not companies we should blame, it's the stock market society that we've built. It's you and me.

    33. Re:Cool! by grassy_knoll · · Score: 2, Informative

      For instance, the acts of Stalin to execute his own people is caused by a fascist system. The starvation of people due to lack of resources is the result of a communist system. Any outrage of atrocities should be directed solely at the former political ideology and really has nothing to do with the later one, which is really just a poor economic system with no real malicious properties.


      o.O

      Stalin... was a fascist? If your historical revisionism can call the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union's Central Committee a fascist your skills at metal yoga are truly impressive.

      As to communism being only an economic system, that's a non-standard definition.
      From the all knowing Wikipedia

      Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. It is usually considered a branch of the broader socialist movement that draws on the various political and intellectual movements that trace their origins back to the work of Karl Marx.


      So the common view seems to be as political as it is economic.

      It doesn't matter if the citizens of a state are killed in killing fields or as a result of Communist economic policy, the end result is neither system is designed for the benefit of it's citizens but instead operates to their detriment.

  3. Yes, but.. by Sandbox+Conspiracy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Will it kill my cat?

    --
    Why am I on Slashdot? I'm bored. Why am I bored? I'm on Slashdot.
    1. Re:Yes, but.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Will it blend?

  4. Brilliant! by quark101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The typical cloner either uses off-the-shelf code, writes something entirely new, or modifies a publicly available Linux-based system"

    Doesn't that describe just about every single software project that anyone here has ever done? We either use something we already have, hack some other code into doing what we want, and then write new code as a last resort.

    Sometimes I am astounded by the brilliance of the observations that are posted on the front page.

    1. Re:Brilliant! by Sparr0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you, as an American coder, are having your code license infringed upon by a Chinese company that you can't touch, I wonder if you could go after stores selling the device. They, too, are violating the law. You could probably get ahold of their inventory, if nothing else.

  5. Damn those Communist Chinese! by erroneus · · Score: 5, Funny

    They are using "free market" ideals against us! What are they trying to do to us by making things we want, less expensive and less restrictive? But there's one thing the Chinese can't duplicate! That "Apple Logo" (tm) that makes me feel smart, warm and cozy every time I buy one of their products. At first, I found myself wanting to buy anything with an "i" in front of the name, but then I realized I was just being an iDiot (tm). Now I look for the Apple mark on it before I buy because then I know I will be happy... just look at all those happy people dancing! It's because of Apple right?

  6. I'm down with that. by torpor · · Score: 2, Interesting


    Open Source is an adequate response to the Cloner problem. If we can all make it, because its designed to be make-able by all in the first place, then there is no worries with the economy issue.

    At this point, the question becomes: how fast can we all shift to an open/cloner form of economy, with local resources and local markets being properly managed in competition with the way they manage things in China? Answer that one, or at least have some sort of scope for the horizon, and maybe things will just get better and better for those of us who want nice, fast, cheap, easily reproducible hardware, for interesting uses ..

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  7. Clones aren't clones, just cheap rippoffs by emj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is always a differance, you won't get the same hardware, it will be slower. You won't get the same software, it will be badly integrated with the rest of the phone. And most importantly I'm not sure we will ever see the sourcecode, and this is the bad thing. These phones won't sell that much, but if I ever get my hands on one I would love to have the Source code, ... I've talked with chinese firms it's hard enough to get it right when you have a contract.

    I want one if it's cheap, and if I get the source, but that's because I can stand sucky interfaces to be able to fiddle with the source.

    1. Re:Clones aren't clones, just cheap rippoffs by e4g4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the Chinese will unashamedly disregard other software and hardware licenses, why on earth would you expect them to respect the GPL? After all - the creators of the GPL, and those who enforce it, don't have nearly the clout that, for example, Microsoft has with the federal government in terms of international IP enforcement. You can demand all you want, but I doubt the manufacturers would even humor you by answering the phone.

      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    2. Re:Clones aren't clones, just cheap rippoffs by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A copy needn't be worse than the original. I mean, after all, both are Made in China...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Clones aren't clones, just cheap rippoffs by GooberToo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most Americans seem to think paying more means higher quality. Most don't seem to understand that's not how the world works. It happens all the time where a superior, less expensive product fails because because they were simply out marketed. Heck, I've even seen situations where potential customer's would even look at the product because it was significantly less expensive than the compentition. The solution was to double the price, reword the "sale brochures", and the customer bought...the exact same product as what was half as expensive the day before.

      Case in point, look at Microsoft. They have buggy, crappy products for the most part, but they prevail because what they lack as a technology company they more than compensate as a Marketing company with ruthless business tactics. MS is not king because they are a technology giant. Microsoft is not king because they are a quality giant.

      The lession learned is American consumers as a whole are dumber than dirt.

  8. Chinese Fakes by apodyopsis · · Score: 5, Informative

    I spent alot of time in China working in the CE industry and this does not suprise me at all. The local culture is that to copy and improve is natural and not illegal.

    However that had not stopped Chinese firms using our own IP systems against us by patenting just about everything they can get their hands on and then seeking money via the courts.

    In a very real sense, they are having their cake and eating it as well.

    My favorite story was the fake NEC firm and thats also mentioned in TFA :"In 2006, NEC, one of the 25 biggest consumer-electronics firms in the world, went public with the results of a two-year investigation. The company had been receiving complants about products it didn't even make: DVD players, cellphones, MP3 players. Investigators from International Risk, a private security firm employed by NEC, ultimately uncovered a shadow version of the company operating out of corporate offices in China, with ties to more than 50 manufacturing facilities. "On the surface, it looked like a series of intellectual-property infringements, but in reality a highly organized group has attempted to hijack the entire brand," says Steve Vickers, the former Hong Kong police inspector who was in charge of the investigation for International Risk. Executives had their own NEC business cards and e-mail add-resses. They had marketing plans and distribution networks in place. Some "company" facilities even had electronic signs bearing huge, lighted NEC logos. Most bold of all, the bogus NEC actually charged the manufacturers it worked with royalties on its designs. The investigation led to raids last year on 18 of the manufacturing sites and the seizure of nearly 50,000 fake products. Yet the factories themselves are still operating, just not using the NEC name. The ringleaders of the scam have yet to be caught; like the Samsung copiers, they are thought to still be making fakes."

    I suspect the biggest problem was trying to persuade them that they had been breaking the law in the first place.

    For more information on Chinese patents see..
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6939 767.stm

    For more information on the fake NEC firm, see
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/biztech/slick-pirates-s eize-entire-brand/2006/05/29/1148754904830.html

    To see some fake chinese brands..
    http://www.hemmy.net/2007/04/29/chinese-fake-brand s/

    1. Re:Chinese Fakes by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I suspect the biggest problem was trying to persuade them that they had been breaking the law in the first place.

      It has been my experience that the general philosophy in China with regard to just about everything is, "If you can get away with it and not get caught then there is nothing wrong with it." There is still loyalty to one's family, but the rest has given way to a general pragmatism born of generations growing up in an oppressive and amoral society which glorifies wealth above all other achievements and encourages exploitation and corruption (not officially per se, but by ineffectual and spotty enforcement). I suppose that in China if one does *not* cheat in a desperate attempt to get ahead then there are ten other people competing against you who have no such qualms. You may be killed if you do get caught, evidenced by the recent events surrounding the former head of the Chinese equivalent of the Food and Drug Administration, but what are the alternatives? Live an honest, but poor, brutal, and short life *or* cheat, get killed if you get caught, and take as much as you can while you can? It is not difficult to see why the cutthroat Chinese businessmen are not concerned with intellectual property laws, they are playing for much higher stakes than that already.

  9. I remember when it used to be Japan by Silver+Sloth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you were an old fart like me you would remember when exactly the same criticisms were said about the cheap Japanese rip-offs that were flooding the market and undermining domestic products that were simply superior in every way. The very idea that Japan would, or could, become world class was laughable, just ask the British motorcycle industry - or the US motor industry

    Beware complacency.

    --
    init 11 - for when you need that edge.
    1. Re:I remember when it used to be Japan by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is actually just as it was described by the GP. The Japanese rise to the industrial power it is (or almost was) can be seen in 5 steps:

      1. Copy, copy and copy. Whatever someone did on this planet, acquire it and copy it.
      2. Churn it out cheaply and flood the market with cheap imitations. Yes, they were cheap. And unreliable. Ask anyone who was shopping in the 60s for electronics parts what he thinks of Japanese electronics.
      3. Use the money generated that way to crank out highly qualified workers and engineers.
      4. Improve the original design, make it smaller, more reliable and faster.
      5. Flood the market with high quality and still cheap electronics.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:I remember when it used to be Japan by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".
      Marty McFly: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.
      Doc: Unbelievable.

    3. Re:I remember when it used to be Japan by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually China has it easier than Japan: The market actually wants cheap crap, not quality. Do you know anyone who's paying for quality? Ok, there are those people (I am still alive, for example), but the majority just wants CHEAP. Not good quality, not solid workmanship, they want CHEAP. When it breaks, throw it away and buy the next cheap crap. Repairing? Ain't worth it. Repair costs 200 bucks, for 300 you get a new one that's also "better".

      Yes, that's gonna break in 1-2 years as well. Then you buy the next cheap crap thing.

      China is actually dead on target with their manufacturing. People want cheap crap, not quality products.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  10. Meizo by Any+Web+Loco · · Score: 3, Informative

    TFA is mostly about China's counterfeit industry rather than an iPhone clone in particular. The iPhone clone of interest though is the Meizo M8 miniOne. Loads of pics online if you google it.

  11. Pirates? by Doc+Squidly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The title of this story is misleading and the story is as well. Pirates copy DVD's, not create new consumer electronics products.

    The company in question, Meizu, has been working on this product since before the iPhone was launched and is planning to base the it on Windows Mobile 6. Some have said that Apple "ripped off" LG's touch screen phone but, it could be like this situation. One product inspires another. The only difference is the popularity of the product doing the inspiring.

    Sure, its a clone but, not a rip-off. Thats the way tech goes. You make a good product & people will emulate and attempt to improve it.

    BTW, I do own a Meizu MP3 player & wouldn't trade it for an iPod. http://http//en.meizu.com/product_m6.asp

    --
    I think I think, therefore I think I am.
    1. Re:Pirates? by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The title of this story is misleading and the story is as well. Pirates copy DVD's, not create new consumer electronics products.

            Wait, in a few years they will change it to "terrorists".

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Pirates? by Bobke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The title of this story is misleading and the story is as well. Pirates copy DVD's, not create new consumer electronics products.

      You couldn't be more wrong, pirates are those guys who steal treasure from ships, at sea.
      Not even a person robbing a train is called a "pirate", he's called a train robber ;)

      Pirates and IP violation have nothing in common, it's just a demonisation term, invented by the RIAA, stop acknowledging it.

    3. Re:Pirates? by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Pirates copy DVD's

      Pirates hijack seafaring ships. You're thinking of copyright infringers. The people ripping off iPhone devices are probably patent and trademark infringers. Totally different things.

  12. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Informative

    I am inspired repeatedly by what I see in China. We are going this Christmas again, to be wowed by the explosion caused by freedom and true capitalism (uncluttered by regulations and taxes

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Funniest thing I have read on slashdot EVER! You do realize that in order to be listed on any Chinese stock exchange you have to be part owned by the Chinese government, don't you? You also realize that individuals cannot "own" land in China, you "rent" it from the government for 70 years. Foreign companies also cannot set up operations in China without having to partner with government affiliated companies. The government can and does shut down companies for no apparent reason. Not to mention the "uncluttered by regulations" part tends to result in highly unsafe products. The list goes on. Somehow, I don't equate "being able to make random knockoffs but cannot do anything without governments approval" to be "true capitalism"
    Yeah, uncluttered regulations indeed.

  13. Inevitable conclusion... by aapold · · Score: 4, Funny

    They will eventually just clone Steve Jobs. I mean its an essential part of the i-brand experience, no?

    Oh, sure the first versions will be of low quality - arrogant, angry, prone to bouts of outrage, hubris, violence.... posing a danger to all those around him..... but in time they will improve and eventually make a better Steve Jobs than the original.

    --
    "Waste not one watt!" - CZ
    1. Re:Inevitable conclusion... by Hanners1979 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh, sure the first versions will be of low quality - arrogant, angry, prone to bouts of outrage, hubris, violence.... posing a danger to all those around him.....

      It's no big deal, they can just sell them as Steve Ballmer clones.

  14. US can't legally buy pirated products by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Will anyone in the US be able to legally purchase and use a miniOne? Obviously people can and do buy large amounts of fake Louis Vuitton handbags, but you don't need to subscribe to a third-party to make use of the handbag. US cell phone companies will have to recognize and allow the miniOne into their cellular networks. Won't Apple lawyers have something to say about this? I'm not at all certain the miniOne would pass legal scrutiny.

    --
    Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
    1. Re:US can't legally buy pirated products by Frankie70 · · Score: 2, Informative


      US cell phone companies will have to recognize and allow the miniOne into their cellular networks.


      What a dumb commnet. You could just get a SIM card from T-Mobile or any other GSM provider & plug into
      the phone. There is no absolutely no way, the provider will able be able to detect it or do anything about
      it.

  15. Re:China: cleverer and more numerous by pzs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I met a graphic designer on a train a few months ago who said that Indian design companies were using European designers to get there processes in place. They would invite these people over on favourable contracts and find out everything about how a design company should be run. The deals were often not as favourable as the designers first thought, but by the time they'd left their host company had already learned an awful lot from them.

    This woman was a bit paranoid and anti-foreign but it did have a hint of plausibility about it.

    I guess it's all a continuous cycle. I wonder whether within my lifetime, the US will go from world dominance to scratching around for a world role. It only took about 40 years for the British Empire to go from "sun never setting" to "small island in Northern Europe".

    Peter

  16. Apple logo too, sorry by retrosteve · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've had a Chinese iPod Nano clone in my hands. It works fine. It's ugly, with a cheap-looking finish and a fake clickwheel that's really just 5 buttons. The power and data interfaces were USB, not Apple's iPod type. BUT

    It had a bigger screen, supported video, had a built-in FM radio, handled most audio and video formats, and...

    it had apple logos and names all over it! More and bigger than the real iPod. Who's going to stop them?

    By the way it sold for 40 dollars equivalent in China.

    1. Re:Apple logo too, sorry by magarity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      it had apple logos and names all over it! More and bigger than the real iPod
       
      I found this the funniest thing when travelling in China; everyone is so 'new money' and totally insecure about having brand name stuff that all the logos are at least 4x the size as on the same US product. You never forget the first time you see a 4 inch long Alligator logo or the 3 inch tall Polo player on a guy's shirt...

  17. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by dada21 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not to mention the "uncluttered by regulations" part tends to result in highly unsafe products. The list goes on. Somehow, I don't equate "being able to make random knockoffs but cannot do anything without governments approval" to be "true capitalism"

    The safety of products sold is a prime reason to use a retailer and not buy wholesale yourself. Will Amazon or CVS or Wal-Mart sell unsafe products? They add their profit overhead to cover their infrastructure, but also to insure against buying faulty or dangerous products. If a product is deemed dangerous, they'll remove it from the market. If they find a large number of dangerous products from a given source, say China, they may go so far as to test products themselves before releasing them to the market. A large retailer can do way more, way faster, than the FDA, USDA or other organizations can. See: Underwriters Laboratories.

    As for regulations, China is definitely not a regulated economy as much as the US is. China's provinces ("States") have varying degrees of regulations, with the least regulated ones growing the fastest. Doug Casey says about Shanghai "The dozens of hotels that can compete with those in Bangkok are starting to draw not just businessmen, but tourists. They like the beaches, and the shopping in a tax and regulation-free environment is incredible."

    I've visitd Beijing and Shanghai, and I can tell you that government is quickly backing off of entrepreneurs and the business market. The booms in growth are amazing, along with the freedom that even a non-citizen has in starting new businesses. The same can be said about Dubai, where I'd love to at least have residency because of the unlimited opportunity to grow and blossom a business.

  18. Re:Lots of cool products by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Funny

    So dont eat your China-Iphone.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  19. Never underestimate... by bigattichouse · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Never underestimate the power of infinite cheap labor. My Dad was navigator for a squadron of Recon F-4s (RF-4s - sheep in wolf's clothing) that flew night missions in vietnam. Their job (occasionally) was to take pictures at night of the Ho Chi Mihn trail. The fighter/bombers would bomb the road during the day. The VC would literally drive trucks down the bombed-out road at night. They would have a crew with shovels in front and behind. One crew filled in the craters, the truck would driver over, one crew dug out the craters. If you flew over the next day, the road still looked "bombed out". Infinite cheap or free labor is a powerful thing.

    --
    meh
  20. piracy? by m2943 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The iPhone is basically a box with a big touch screen. The iPhone design has so few distinguishing features that it's hard to see which parts of the design Apple could claim a trademark on. Furthermore, Apple wasn't even the first to ship such a phone, LG was.

    "Piracy" means violating either copyrights or trademarks. So, if they put an Apple logo or some unique graphical design on the phone, that would be piracy. If they copied Apple code, that would be piracy. It seems unlikely that they did either.

    They might run into some patents, but patent infringement isn't usually referred to as piracy. Furthermore, the only really novel functionality on the iPhone is multitouch (technology Apple didn't invent but bought), and I seriously doubt the clones even bothered with multitouch.

    So, this kind of cloning is probably not piracy. And given the many limitations of the iPhone, this kind of cloning is a good thing for the consumer. Even if they were the same price, I'd want one of these Chinese phones because it sounds like a better phone to me.

  21. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by kamapuaa · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Well China is about as close to your utopian IP-free state as possible.

    It's basically decimated the local film industry - China should be a huge market, but basically it's ignored even by local filmmakers, who aim themselves at foreign audiences - hence all those lame Westernish Kung-Fu movies from Chen Kaige and Zhang Yimou. This is also true in Hong Kong, which has a history of excellence and two of the greatest directors in the world, Wong Kar Wai and Johnny To, who now rely on non-Chinese audiences or even have turned to making American movies.

    Chinese manufacturers have to aim at the foreign market from day 1. Any successful product will be immediately copied by Chinese cut-rate manufacturers. It is economically infeasible to design a product for the Chinese market.

    Imitations also are often of a much lower quality. Bootleg bottled water in Beijing was recently revealed to often be fake, using filtered Beijing tap water (you wouldn't want to drink it).

    Local musicians aren't able to sell their CDs. Anything popular from local bands will be sold on the street for maybe fifty cents. There is basically no music scene in China, everything is bootlegged from Hong Kong or Taiwan or the US.

    Goods in China are marginally cheaper, but it's at the expense of shoddy products that are often of a lower quality, and of a moribund IP development, and a lack of locally produced culture. There is no motivation to doing work or putting expense into research, if there's no economic reward - and there's no economic reward when your ideas are ripped off immediately.

    I'd love to see all these people who are so opposed to IP restrictions actually consider their argument, rather than use it as their rationalization for why it's not stealing to download bootleg copies of "Transformers the Movie."

    --
    Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
  22. A reverse in the "original vs. copy" saying by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The copy is better than the original.

    For a long, long time, you could often only distinguish between the original and the "cheap" copy by looking at quality. A real Rolex usually beats the crap out of one of those cheap imitations in reliability, accuracy and longevity. A real shirt of some brand was usually much more resilent and had better seams than the rip offs.

    This changed dramatically in the last few years. Especially in the electronics market.

    Electronics vendors want to grab you in their stranglehold of vendor lock-in. They want you to use their, and only their, accessories, or at best some that they approve (and get royalties for). Add DRM and the need that they must not allow you to use your tool in the way you want and you know why the copy is actually "more" what you want. They already ignore trade laws by copying the brand, how much do they care for DRM? And on top of it, they certainly don't care about vendor lock-in, since, well, why should they help the company they copy?

    Now the quality argument has been eroded away as well, since yes, the copies are made in cheap sweatshops in China. Guess what? SO ARE THE ORIGINALS! There is no quality argument anymore for brand vs. copy.

    So we have two tools which are essentially of the same quality, but one wants to limit me while the other one doesn't care as long as I buy the thing. Question for 100: Which one will you buy?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:A reverse in the "original vs. copy" saying by mosch · · Score: 2

      Now the quality argument has been eroded away as well, since yes, the copies are made in cheap sweatshops in China. Guess what? SO ARE THE ORIGINALS!

      Quality is not primarily determined by the location or pay of the assembly plant floor.

  23. I'd much prefer a cheap clone to an iPhone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We either use something we already have, hack some other code into doing what we want, and then write new code as a last resort.

    Indeed. And that's a very GOOD thing, everyone building upon the work of others.

    Pity that the west isn't into that. Instead we're into branding. /sigh

    If the cheap clone were Linux-based then it wouldn't matter if it wasn't as slick as the iPhone, because we could improve it.

    And it wouldn't matter if the hardware were somewhat slower, because we could optimize the kernel and libraries to make up for it.

    In any case, where do people think that Apple get their components? Almost entirely from the far east ... that's the hotbed of technology these days. Apple merely defines the specs, controls the integration, and marks up 10000000000% profit ....

    But those same good components are not Apple exclusives, they're available to anyone wanting them --- if they were exclusive to Apple, an iPhone would cost a grand or more.

    Kudos to China and to all those focussed on making things instead of on branding.

  24. Re:Not an improvement by Threni · · Score: 5, Funny

    No 3G..Battery soldered in...wait, that's the original iPhone!

  25. Essence of Capitalism by Ultra64 · · Score: 5, Funny

    The new fragrance from Calvin Klein.

    1. Re:Essence of Capitalism by hesiod · · Score: 4, Funny

      Smells like $#!%, but I have to love it... It's too damn expensive NOT to!

  26. Re:iClone likely has cut & paste, unlike iPhon by wrf3 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Weezul wrote; Isn't the iPhone inherently "badly integrated" with itself because it lacks cut & paste?

    John Gruber, of daringfireball.net, makes the argument that "it's good that the 1.0 iPhone shipped without them", even though he wishes this functionality were present.

  27. US Knockoff Competition by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If the US government were really interested in a competitive economy rather than merely protecting incumbent crony corporations, this Chinese competition would face even stiffer competition from American corporations knocking off stuff, too.

    We could tell that the US government was interested in that competition, and not propping up incumbents with IP protectionism that only cripples American (and close economic allies like Western Europe and Japan) competition's chance to compete, if the IP controls like flimsy but unending patents and copyrights were discarded in favor of growth.

    Not only would American competitors to these Chinese knockoffs benefit, but of course the consumers would benefit from the lower prices and innovations. Since consumers are most of the economy, along with the labor we sell to corporations, our economy would benefit.

    Or, we can just let China eat our lunch, while we prohibit ourselves from fighting back.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  28. OpenMoko by xrayspx · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm waiting for OpenMoko to launch. That seems like a device with a little more thought put into it than this clone. The guys in the article just seem to be interested solely in responding to Apple with a quick knockoff to make a few bucks.

  29. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We are going this Christmas again, to be wowed by the explosion caused by freedom and true capitalism (uncluttered by regulations and taxes).

    uncluttered by regulation and taxes?????? Your kidding right... You may not have a tax listed as part of the price but because most companies are owned by the government the government gets its cuts. Regulations yea right just recently a higher up governemtn offical was executed by the chinese government because of his corruption he lead to poisoned food to be exported. If it was internal they may not have cared. The regulations were and are on the book it is just that the government is so inept that it barely inforces them in fear of a public revolt.

    A few months Ago NPR was doing a report on Chinese Capitalism and interviewed an buisness owner he said the only thing the comunist government is there for is to add red tape to the process.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  30. We needn't fear being copied... by Xeth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...so much as crippling ourselves. The iPhone has some obvious flaws. Not engineering ones, really. Not things that couldn't've been overcome by the engineers at Apple. But things enforced by the telecoms. The phones are deliberately damaged. The Chinese ripoff is carrier independent. Allows people to write their own applications. And it's probably easier to use it like a general purpose machine, too. There is no technical reason why Apple could not do these things. But, because of corrupting influence (I suspect the pure-evil, anti-free market attitude of the telecoms), the iPhone doesn't have them. Americans are deliberately making inferior products. No wonder there are issues competing.

    --
    If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
  31. Quality? by billsf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It appears China is where Japan was, post-war. There is a market for the 'cheapest product possible', but personally I'd rather pay twice, say for a quality motherboard without on board "Realtek" garbage. In general all products from China seem to be a bit shoddy. Give them a few years and things may change dramatically. I'm referring to 'authorized products' here.

    Then, what is wrong with making obvious fakes? As long as the consumer is fully aware and there is no deception, no faked trademarks, etc. What is the problem? I wouldn't drive a Chinese car quite yet or use an unapproved drug or related product, (like the toothpaste), I am certainly game to learn HOW they do it.

    In yet another case, its profitable to over-produce 'authorized products' and sell them. Does it matter if your 'designer clothes' came from a fancy retailer on High Street or resold at 1/10 the price elsewhere? Remember they came from exactly the same source in this case. Hint: I'm not stupid.

    People the world over tolerate Microsoft. Has Microsoft __ever__ made an original product? Isn't it strange to think about that for a second? Whats wrong with a Linux based phone that looks like the BSD based iPhone? I doesn't appear to have an 'Apple logo', something the end-user can add if it helps. Its a completely different product. Maybe it works better? Chances are it will break in half a year, but at a fraction the price: Who cares? If they've fixed the rough edges of the iPhone, like easy to change batteries, some sort of API, it may be preferable to many. The ones I've seen locally come with source and an API and cost about half the US price of iPhone, in Europe. AFAIK, it legal as long as you don't program it to do something illegal. (such as jam GPS or intercept calls that are not yours) Yes, its illegal to lock a consumer to a single provider or a single choice if more are available.

    It appears today, the most profitable business plan is to base a product on an existing concept. Designing completely new products (like I do) has its challenges and risks. Usually it fails, but that one in five that wins, makes everything back and $millions more, at minimum. So China, like Japan in the 40s and 50s, is at the "Microsoft stage". Eventually they will, like Japan, think for themselves. Japanese products are quality, and China is likely to follow. There is no business plan in forever 'cloning' existing products. What if 'PC hardware' was only IBM clones? Fortunately companies do move on to survive. So do nations. ...

  32. Not the same thing by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Japan was NOT ripping off. They had low costs cars that Americans were buying, but they were not rip offs. They then focused on quality. Personally, I admire the country for what they did. They pulled themselves up by their boot straps.

    China is a WHOLE different matter. They are flat out stealing. But that is by design. The chinese gov pushes this and as long as American and European countries allow this, it will get worse. You are correct about complacency, but the real issue is Americans (and EUers) who accept this cheap junk. Want to stop it? Quit buying it. As of a month ago, I quit buying Fischer-price because they do not check their toys (I have a 3.5 y.o. and a 10 m.o.). For the last couple of years, I refused to buy any fish from china. I know that most of it comes from American waters, but the problem is there quality is very low.

    And these days, we have to worry about espionage. On a project that I was working on, we had a "Taiwain" native who wanted to invest into the company. Most importantly, he wanted control of some hardware that we had, and wanted to sell it to mainland china. Since it was under gov. control, there was NO way to allow this. And yet, he was still looking at ways to take it to china. Another individual applied for a job with us, and her resume looked interesting until I saw that she was chinese citizenship. With that, we could not hire her. Once I explained that we were developing equipment for the DOD, NSA, and CIA and could not hire her, I started getting phone calls and emails every day. Needless to say, not a chance.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Not the same thing by modecx · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hah! Japanese companies were commercially copying American cars soon after WWII, if not during. Look at the Land Cruiser. In it's earliest stages it was a reverse engineered copy of the Willys jeep, which was itself a hastily designed vehicle for the upcoming start of WWII. Seeing the successes of the Jeep in the war, the Japanese government commissioned Toyota with the job, but Nissan later produced the military versions. Toyota even later produced copies of the Jeep for the US government for use in the Korean War; an act which more or less legitimatized the operation, but it would have made no difference anyway. Toyota went on to improve and refine the vehicle, basically copied Range Rover's name in the processes, and there you have it. Arguably, pretty much all internationally successful Japanese light trucks have common ancestry from the Jeep, and it would be silly to argue that many of the internationally successful cars from Japan, of the 60's, 70's and 80's, didn't share in those developments.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    2. Re:Not the same thing by SerpentMage · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wow, its amazing how people forget history. Japan WAS ripping off. I know I and my family was working in the car industry during that time. They might not have ripped off the North Americans, but they most certainly did rip off the Europeans. Look at the Japanese models around that time and then look at the Europeans. Similar models. If I may be blunt the Japanese copied the looks of BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes (lesser Mercedes).

      Another example is machines like lathes, milling machines, robots, etc. Germany and Switzerland used to have a good business there. Then along came the Japanese and ripped them off. Most of the German machines are history now because they could not compete against the Japanese who undercut on price alone.

      What gets me is this revisionism in North America and how North America blindly has forgotten how Japanese used to run around on world fairs with camera's in hand.... Do I sound angry, yeah, I am because I was affected.

      Though now I look at China and just laugh...

      (What goes around, comes around...)

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
  33. Two-way street by supercrisp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I study literature, and at least in that realm copying was a two-way street. Dickens lost gobs of money to American editions of his work while Melville, Clemens, and others lost gobs to copying in England. There were no copyright agreements, so there was flagrant copying. In fact, our nations were at war with one another off and on during the nineteenth century. It might be best to not cry over spilt milk.

    1. Re:Two-way street by Azuredream · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, Melville didn't lose "gobs of money" to copying in England. All of his works were originally published in England before being published in America.

    2. Re:Two-way street by laddiebuck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He was referring to industrial espionage, not literature. Where do you think turn-of-the-century American cars got their technology from (later to outsell British and German models in those countries)?

  34. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by STDK · · Score: 2, Informative

    Local musicians aren't able to sell their CDs. Anything popular from local bands will be sold on the street for maybe fifty cents. There is basically no music scene in China, everything is bootlegged from Hong Kong or Taiwan or the US. I've scanned the car radio for 6 months now without finding western music once. The senario you present is only true for Beijing, Shanghai and to some extent Guandong. The last 1.1 billion lives fine without western-knockoff music. STDK
  35. Samsung vs Sony? by A+non-mouse+Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Say what you want, but some people can probably remember when Samsung made cheap Sony knock-offs as their line of business. Now they're innovating and many consumers (like myself) would chose a Samsung over a Sony.

    How long before consumers choose iClone over iPhone?

    --
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  36. But will it Blend? by TheeBlueRoom · · Score: 2, Funny

    and can I get a side of noodles?

    --
    I wish I was clever!
  37. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by rsw · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You seemingly fail to comprehend that the reason for this is that China is a terrible market for any kind of disposable spending because its people are for the most part extremely poor.

    It's not that it'll get stolen---it just won't sell.

    -=rsw

  38. Does it come with or without lead? by wardk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    how about PCB's?

    Is this just another delivery vehicle for poison? another method China is going to use to aff load their toxic waste on other locations?

    Was the assembler a 4 or 5 year old? were they whipped or beaten to meet their quota?

    are the knobs make from endangered shark fin?

    Is the default background screen a shot of the massacre at Tienemen?

    just curious about yet another thing we're supposed to be impressed with the chinese for. nothing to see here, move along.

  39. Re:China: cleverer and more numerous by pzs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I live on the small Northern European island. Maybe this is because of the "special relationship" but I feel sad about what is happening to the US. They genuinely saved the day in WW2 and they've been trying to recapture that moment of glory ever since. Some of their efforts have been successful but several high profile failures have cost them their reputation, as well as a great deal of money.

    For all their failings, I believe that the things the US ostensibly stands for - liberty, equality and the belief that you can achieve anything if you work for it - are a good role model for the world. I feel a little nervous about a world where the US has allowed stupid leaders to bleed away all their power and we have to find another buttress against the casual cruelty of China and a resurgent Russia.

    Peter

  40. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by BobGregg · · Score: 2, Informative

    Let's just say you shouldn't bet your life on that. Nobody I know of in Beijing (my wife is from there, I've been twice) drinks tap water, filtered or not, without boiling it first. As for the filtering, there's filtering, and then there's filtering. For one thing, tap water would have to be filtered at least lightly to pass it off as bottled, since the water coming from the tap has heavy white sediment in it. Seriously, pour a glass from the tap, and just wait - you'll literally see the sediment settling to the bottom. So you would have to filter that out. But filtered for *safety*? Nah, that would take effort, and cut into the fakers' profits. My inlaws have passed on stories from CCTV about bootleg bottled water; it's relatively well known that you have to be careful about it.

  41. Pay up by thaig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Americans used to "pirate" Gilbert and Sullivan shows back when they were popular. Now that Americans are net exporters of IP rather than importers, the tune has changed.

    I think you should all pay Newton $5 every time an engineer usesF=ma. Bah!

    --
    This is all just my personal opinion.
  42. Pirates? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since this phone is not the same as the iPhone, has different code, mmore functionality, how are these Chinese "pirates"?

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  43. Bad Business Decision by PPH · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Apple may rue the day they decided to delay the iPhone in markets other then the USA. By the time they make it th Europe and Asia, those markets might already be saturated.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  44. supply and demand sucks when you can't withhold by crovira · · Score: 2, Interesting

    labor and demand a higher salary.

    But that is China's situation and is rapidly becoming the case in the west.

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  45. They should call it the 'iClone' by spiedrazer · · Score: 2, Funny

    What... I'd buy one!

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  46. redefinition of lost by chihowa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually none of them lost any money at all in the process. They simply failed to make money that they (felt they) were entitled to.

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  47. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by kamapuaa · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Let's not forget that this discussion topic is taking place about a cell phone that goes for $500. Obviously even if the majority of China is very poor, there is a substantial percentage of people who are able to afford IP-protected products, but don't, purely for the fact that there's no reason to.

    Anyway compare China to India, right next door. It's a very large market, but only 60% the size of China's. People are much, much poorer, believe me it's not like China where every urban motherfucker sports a $200+ cell phone. And yet India, with stronger IP laws than China, has a vibrant film and cultural industry, a fairly large (and rapidly growing) skilled labor pool, and can actually support locally-oriented industries.

    Obviously that's a simplified breakdown - but saying "all 1.4 billion Chinese people are poor and could never afford to buy anything that isn't a bootleg" is even simpler, to the point of being nonsense.

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  48. Re:Patent, schmatent -- supply and demand wins by steelfood · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Oh where to begin...

    It's basically decimated the local film industry - China should be a huge market, but basically it's ignored even by local filmmakers, who aim themselves at foreign audiences - hence all those lame Westernish Kung-Fu movies from Chen Kaige and Zhang Yimou. This is also true in Hong Kong, which has a history of excellence and two of the greatest directors in the world, Wong Kar Wai and Johnny To, who now rely on non-Chinese audiences or even have turned to making American movies. ...
    Local musicians aren't able to sell their CDs. Anything popular from local bands will be sold on the street for maybe fifty cents. There is basically no music scene in China, everything is bootlegged from Hong Kong or Taiwan or the US.

    Wrong. Entertainment is a luxury. It's a luxury very few people in mainland China can afford. Most people are too busy trying to make a living to spend money on entertainment like music or movies. Thus, the market for such things is nowhere near as large as you're imagining. The pirate market isn't targetted at Chinese people in China. They're targetting people who can afford these luxuries, namely, Chinese people in the west.

    That's why big-budgeted movies are aimed at a primarily western audience. But that isn't true either. There is a thriving entertainment industry in Hong Kong with music and movies for Chinese audiences, despite the rampant piracy from the mainland. The directors and actors you mentioned are the ones trying to break into a larger audience, not because they can't make money off of the Chinese audience (plenty of others do), but because the western market is so much bigger. Comparing the 10-15 million people in HK and overseas with the 200 million people in the US alone and you can see the difference in market size, no mention of the rest of the western world. And because they can make movies western audiences can watch without getting completely lost in the cultural references, they will try for that market.

    Chinese manufacturers have to aim at the foreign market from day 1. Any successful product will be immediately copied by Chinese cut-rate manufacturers. It is economically infeasible to design a product for the Chinese market.

    Wrong again. There are plenty of chinese manufacturers designing for the Chinese market. You might have even heard of some of them, as some of these brands have made it to the US. Many of these brands began in China selling to a primarily Chinese market. Many of these brands were once available outside of China only through the gray market. More recently, these smaller brands have been selling to an international customer base over the internet.

    Imitations also are often of a much lower quality. Bootleg bottled water in Beijing was recently revealed to often be fake, using filtered Beijing tap water (you wouldn't want to drink it).

    Dasani in Great Britain was recently found to be just filtered water from the Thames. Most bottled waters are just filtered tap water, if that much. If you've got some romantic notion that bottled water actually comes from a glacier or some natural spring, then I've got a bridge to sell you.

    Goods in China are marginally cheaper, but it's at the expense of shoddy products that are often of a lower quality, and of a moribund IP development, and a lack of locally produced culture. There is no motivation to doing work or putting expense into research, if there's no economic reward - and there's no economic reward when your ideas are ripped off immediately.

    Ok, there are three major points to address here. First, it is true that knockoff goods in China are much cheaper, and the quality of the material may be lower than the real thing, but the manufacturing process is the same, since everything is made in China anyway. For some things, there is no difference in material, so there's no difference in quality between the Chinese knockoff and the real thing.

    Second, there's 5 thousand

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